James Dooley: you have been in the industry now for 14 years proper OG if you're a highly skilled SEO you're always going to be able to make money anywhere in the world people just don't know how to rank how can someone say that something's high risk when for over a decade now I've had assets earning me money on a month-by-month basis the rank and rent model is like 600 something sites that you do yeah in well there's 647 paying clients there's over 500 different in industries that we're in as well what type of links what velocity of links what how many articles and stuff we needed massively varies from from one industry to the next we don't really go down the model of doing the PBM route but we we we mainly get them from you um only people come to you I'll argue with you that links don't long don't work or oh I don't want to buy your links to a bit blackout and stuff like that well that's fine but you're not going to rank you're not a white hat and I'm not a black hat I'm a return on investment heart I love that stop chasing traffic and try and start chasing ROI so it say these are like the top ranking factors at the moment in SEO yeah probably the biggest industry that I think is going to get hit within SEO is.

James Dooley: James Dooley welcome to the SEO wisdom podcast how are you how you doing yeah great I love that cap you're wearing is it like the new brand in like 100 million IO um it's Charles float initially designed it with udish about seven or eight years ago and he had like an SEO swag kind of shop and then he just never kind of carried on with it but I always liked that design so I got like 40 caps in every single color that you can think of that's amazing so yeah I've always I've always St him which is good and all the different ones there like yeah I mean I I love I love that like branding aspect to it but it's still like see you as you know like the seop he Blinder the accent the strong accent and stuff yeah me and the mess were talking about he's like she was watching one of your videos you know and she's like oh he's a Peaky Blinder well one of one of the SEO videos are like I I normally wear the peaky blinders flat caps when we go horse racing um but the uh yeah we always if we ever get interviewed if we win a race we always get said oh it's the peeky blindness so James like um yeah a lot of people know you you're kind of getting viral like my homepage is like I see it at least every few days I'm like okay new podcast James dully James dly James dully um for all the people who are familiar and not familiar yeah who's James dly what does he specialize in and yeah at present I'm kind of going semi viral online um but to be honest with you I've been in the industry now for 14 years I'm um one of the originals so to speak um so I've been through it all I've got a lot of scars along the way um from the growth that we've had obviously we've had a lot of setbacks with algorithm updates and stuff like that but yeah I've been in it a long time built out um a few very successful iGaming casino know type websites um do quite a lot of lead generation a lot of people seem to be interested in the rank and rent model that we do um which we've got hundreds and hundreds of clients um that are on the rank and rent model but it all stems initially from lead generation um and then over the years I've been starting acquiring service based kind of companies that fulfill let's say content or back links and disavows and E-A-T audits um um got a blended mix of everything mainly the the businesses that I'm buying are stuff that we're paying money quite a lot of it spending quite a lot of money with so I think naturally is part of the growth if I can part own part own these companies it makes sense me to do it because one it's going to bring my overheads down but two I can check quality control and making certain that everything that we're doing on our own sites is being tested properly and we're getting the best bang for our buck.

Unknown: sweet and all these service based businesses you're caring you're just making sure that you fulfill kind of like that SEO aspect or it's just like the full business like model and it it's I don't I I mean if I'm being honest I hate client SEO um I can't think of anything worse than because it's the only industry where if if if you got a brick L to build you the wall you allow him to go and build a wall you don't stand over him and watch and saying excuse me why have you laid down that bricking that way excuse me how have you done that where in SEO they feel like the need to ask what you're doing why you're doing it and how you're doing it and every step of the way and it's more about you need a a management system and nice glossy reports and it's less about the results and more about proving what you've done so for that reason I try to stay away from SEO client SEO but we do offer like white label type services for for SEO agencies so it could just be producing um Surfer optimized content or Market moves optimized content or um it could just be like guest posting and stuff like that um so but it's like I said it's mainly it's probably a small percentage maybe 1% of my asset value um is service based type stuff but we've acquired them simply because we use those services as well for ourself um we make majority of our money on the casino affiliate and the lead generation rank and rent model but so many people think I only do the rank and rent model where everything starts out on the ranking rent model it starts off with lead generation and then moves into the ranking rent model once we've worked with him for a few years so and it's just it's just a a part of lead generation basically for different different industries in different issues.

James Dooley: awesome and the rank and rent model is like 600 something sites that you do yeah in well there's 647 paying clients um there's over a thousand different websites that we've built out I think there's more than that there could even be over 2,000 that we've built out but some of them have failed which then we put into the testing team to push the boundaries of SEO and test those sites out and see what else can be done it's not it's not normally that we can't rank the websites it's normally that the industry is just not profitable enough for us um so we kind of move it to one side we we're spending more on content links and hosting than physically getting paid from the client like the so the return on investment is not good enough where the 647 paying clients their niches and industries that we know do well and I think there's I I don't know how many different there's over 500 different in industries that we're in as well um and the crazy part with the testing team is that every single niche has got different nuances for how to rank where people just think there's one algorithm it's it's just the same you build content you build links and it's done which to a certain degree is is partially true but what type of links what velocity of links what how many articles and stuff I needed massively varies from from one industry to the next so 647 sites out of 2,000 sites that you make it's almost like a 35% success rate that's right yeah but but saying that it's probably higher than that because the the ones that fail we do test out on or we still make some sort of money with like display ads that's paying clients from a rank and rent model so we can still generate leads on a back end and we can still make money via medline or Ezoic or advive and stuff like that so they're not that they're lost and they're not doing anything there could even be some could be PBNs some could be whatever you want to try and build them out as and we don't really go down the model of doing the PBN route but we we we mainly get them from you um but the um we uh we can make money out in in other ways where it could be tenancy it could be display ads it could be just lead generation it's 647 that are paying on rank and rent model okay I'll take the 35% back it's probably higher um yeah so much SEO you talked just um us introducing uh this pod and yeah I just want to get into your story uh what was the transition phase like 14 years ago proper OG like I see a lot of like 14 15 years old like um SEOs I was connected with and I talked to them some of them and they don't do SEO anymore and I think you kind of survived all the kind of algorithms and you've seen basically everything so yeah tell us your story.

James Dooley: yeah so 14 years ago well 15 years ago I'm in the industry of construction um doing a lot of project management um building anything from houses to like tennis courts and football pitches and playgrounds and stuff like that mainly in schools so like classrooms and stuff like that and then we realized we needed more inquiries um so I went online to try and find someone that could maybe do lead generation I knew that I needed a website so I I got a website built didn't have a clue what SEO was didn't even understand that there's an algorithm behind Google and I I just never really thought about how Google chooses who ranks number one and then when it opened that up and it was like there's a whole formula and an algorithm behind it well I kind of geek out on formulas and Google Sheets and and trying to like find out the puzzle of of what it is and I think that's another reason why I'm still in the industry there's a few people that been in the industry for a while and they've either lost and failed and and moved on and gone to something else or some of them have been very successful and retired but retirement's not for me um I love still to this day I still geek out and I I always call it being in the trenches with some of the team when a massive algorithm update comes I want to try and uncover and find what what's happened and how can we recover um if any of our sites have been hit um and and I think a lot of these updates there's some the most recent one The Helpful content update there's so many good quality sites that have been hit and we've been hit on a few but then we've had loads that have jumped up as well so we've got both sides of it where we can track what is it that that's going on but back to your initial question is yeah we moved into it realized that I needed more inbound inquiries so from there then I built out the website started to understand a little bit of SEO back then I'm sure you remember you just put a keyword in your title tag and hit it with some links yeah and you was ranking number one so for many years probably for four or five years it was playing sailing who was ranking number one and number two and number three for every single one of our keywords that we wanted to because also back then the same website could rank from multiple keywords it wasn't like one website one page for one one single keyword so we dominated for many years at that point point we made quite a bit of money and we started to reinvest it in building out a team um we're building out the right quality kind of processes and systems which is very important and I think the two biggest things that I did early on that now I kind of put a lot of my success down to is that we built an R&D testing team in house that consistently breaks Google pushes the boundaries and checks to see what's working and what's not not just listening to what others say but physically testing um the SERP and then the next one is we've got where you've got two full-time people that literally just do all the training and try and make the training more concise so if we've got a 16 minute video of how to build citations can that be 14 minutes can that 27 points checklist be 24 points and that sounds dumb and when I tell some people that there like you employ two full-time people to do that I'm like if I can shave five minutes off that video and that's going to be watched by hundreds members hundreds of members of staff that's a lot of time saved so our our systems and processes are very very slick and concise but deliver kind of processes and and like the output to a very high level and at that point then you can on board staff that some staff are almost just data inputs like certain virtual assistants that we have they're just following a process and following a process and if they wanted to leave somebody else can come in and just follow that same process um and that's what allows you to to grow at a rate of knots where you can have a lot of staff following the right processes and as long as you've got the systems and processes correct you can rank for almost any term that you want.

Unknown: yeah I've been listening um to all the words you've been sharing and stuff like retirement's not for me pushing the boundaries I've been picking up on those and I'm going to come to the wisdom James aspect of it like bit later um but yeah like I remember 2014 um SEO was so easy in the UK especially like it was like three PBN links to a plumbing London company and it was like top three now just like clients come and they're spending like 2,000 on like 200 PBN links and they hardly get to like page one and there's some occasions you know and there's so much stuff that's playing and like you've seen all waves of SEO in the last 14 years what would you say like that one factor that didn't make you like a bad SEO or make you change Google I'm gonna just I hope swearing is okay by the way.

James Dooley: yeah yeah it's fine um I'm just going to uh transition into a different industry like what kept you going to be honest with you because we was quite diversified in um what we had if ever we did have a a kind of decline very early on we I understood this industry would be growth is never linear so there's never like a straight line here's success and here's where you start and it goes like that I always knew there was going to be peaks and troughs and to be honest with you in all businesses it's not just SEO and people some people are naive to understand this that in all businesses there's peaks and troughs in interest rates it goes up and down in let's say crypto it goes up and down that's just part and parcel of life so there was there's always going to be um a peak of you doing really well and then a trough of you dropping down but because we was quite diversified in what we did sometimes if one went down another side might have gone up anyway so like overall it was like always never never drastic kind of changes um and just I think he's just having good mentality and just understanding that you've got to ride the storm you've got to get through it um I I normally talk about this same story where I've got two older brothers and I basically I used to play football with them both in the garden all the time and they'd beat me because they was older than me and they'd beat me and beat me and beat me I'd get back up and I'd go again and then I I try and play him at badminton and because they was older than me and bigger than me and stronger than me they'd beat me at badminton and I remember like one time I was sat there and my dad had a right going at me because I was like crying on the floor because I couldn't beat him at any sport I was getting annoyed and he's like get up you don't sit down and cry about it you get up and go again and I feel that that kind of mentality is still with me today and I was only like five or six years old then and when I got to like 13 or 14 and I'd grown up a bit more and they was like 16 I could beat them then because I was physically a bit stronger they were still older and they were still stronger than me but I started to win certain games but I feel like that that losing at a young age and getting back up and going again I've got that kind of instilled into me now with business so if if something goes wrong that's fine you learn from it and you go again and you and you pick things up along the way and that bounce back ability of not letting it get to you if something does happen it's just you've got to remember that if if a site goes down well what's happened somebody else's site has gone up so for me I kind of now embrace it to go well what they done better than what we've done and then you've got to reverse engineer what's happened and then just implement it and it might take six months to recover and that's fine and that's that's the that's is what it is from how Google's playing field is at the moment but you just got got to keep trying to go and understand what works in today's algorithms so I think back then it was I feel like I've got instilled into me to never give up and and just keep going and keep riding the storm and at some point you'll you'll get to where you want to be but it's it'll be like this.

Unknown: so I mean it's funny you mentioned badminton I used to play badminton professionally really yeah so I was like 11 or 12 years old and there was a district competition in my local city and I went for the quarterfinals and I thought I was going to make it to the final you know I had some expectation yeah and I lost by like two points or something and I come back home and all my family and relatives they're like so did you make it to the semi-finals and I was like not really and then something clicked in me and it was like there's too much competition these Indian uh sports like districts to National and and if I have to climb that ladder it'll require a lot of hard work and dedication and am I willing or dedicated enough to go for this ladder or just quit it now and do something you know with my laptop and that's how I start got into SEO and websites and stuff yeah and for me like it's a different story because it's a for for me my dad was like yeah son do whatever you want you know if you want to quit and pursue something else go for it and that made me like instilled in me like okay being a good quitter is also kind of very nice and I think you can apply in success as well like some business partnerships um don't work out in some sites and some joint ventures and you need to know like where you stand and like one of the quotes he said like don't compare like sheep to a sheep or something and fish to a bird or something and um yeah what are your thoughts on like uh just giving up and not giving up or just going for it when to make that.

James Dooley: you've got you've got you've got to pick and choose your battles yeah um so I I kind of normally revert it back to having a game of poker and you've got to know when to hold and know when to fold and it's very very important to know that like if you so let's say um as a badminton player when you got beat in them quarterfinals you might have known I'm not going to make this to the top and this is not what I want to do and it doesn't fulfill my happiness so therefore I'm going to leave and I'm going to you you said quit but it's more like it's just the right decision to do and you're leaving to pursue something else yes business partners at times some some things don't work yes there's certain um kind of issues that you might enter might not work yes there's certain kind of careers that you might start to take I mean look you how many people from being 10 12 14 years old say they're going to be um a pilot they're going to be a doctor they're going to be what a nurse whatever they're going to be and then and they don't end up being so many people don't end up becoming what they think they're going to be but it's just about pursuing your own happiness and if your own happiness means to leave something behind or leave for your in your instance badminton yes absolutely that's absolutely fine as well it's like me like when my dad brought me he wouldn't be like you have to do this like if I didn't win at football I'd move to boxing if I didn't win at that I'd move to whatever else could play tennis or table tennis or whatever it was so in a way deep down in a little bit of a way I was kind of not I won't say quitting but I'm trying to find an edge somewhere and then when you when you find something that you're happy with or you're good at at that point you double down.

Unknown: awesome I'm going to be honest with you um yeah there are times when I introduce myself to people and and they're like what do you do M and most of the times I'm like I do nothing you know I'm semi-retired whatever because I feel like there's a uh importance in just being lowkey sometimes and there are times when I'm like I just own a digital real estate and I think I took it from you when we met in Dubai and yeah can you explain the concept of uh digital real estate and how it ties into SEO.

James Dooley: yeah so I always got brought up and I don't know how others did but I always got brought up that you work hard you save up enough money and then you buy a house you if you're lucky enough you might be able to buy a second house or a third house and rent it out and obviously that's building up your real estate portfolio but the truth of the matter is every time I looked at the numbers for digital for sorry for real estate you were was only making around six or 7% maybe 8% yield so that's 8% per year on the money that you'd put in where on websites what I started to realize was with regards to lead generation or affiliate or display ads or whichever way you want to monetize your websites if I put 100,000 pound into a a website I'd wa I'd make way more than 8,000 a year way more which means that I'm getting higher return on investment by doing the websites than I would by doing the real estate so what we started to do is we majority of the time nowadays we probably make about 100% yield in year one not in year maybe not in year one but within 18 months we would have got our money back but then after that we're making 100% per year in in our we spent 100,000 we'll probably make £100,000 pound a year if we only spend £2,000 on a website we might make two grand a month which is £24,000 a year so building up this online portfolio of websites but then I was thinking to myself when we do the rank and rent model someone it was someone that just said to me like probably seven years ago so you just build online assets and rent them out I said yeah he went so you're like a landlord but for digital assets and I was like yeah that's that's way putting it so so then he says oh whenever someone asks you what do you do why to say you're a digital landlord I said well I've never really heard that saying before but yeah yeah that's probably the best way of explaining it I'm a digital landlord and I own a lot of digital real estate in websites which could be affiliate sites like I said display ads um lead generation sites and I rent them out or or I'm earning money from them in some way shape off form just like the people that the grant card owner the world who say buy buy property and rent out it's that way but just doing it with' digital assets.

Unknown: I mean the returns you mentioned like it's quite amazing what you do for the websites you invest in and especially your team uh seems like a highly skilled um operational level uh stuff but for the people who are listening and they're like James like I might just buy a house and it's safe it's just you know it's there like nobody's going to take it but you never know with the internet government government might come with the restrictions this and that or SEO or AI and I can just like lose all the money what would you your argument be for those people.

James Dooley: it's a great question to ask that to be fair because in the UK for pension pots people do a lot of invest lot of pension pots invest in a lot of different things so it could be stock shares property um and then the high risks the high risk high risk was websites and cryptocurrency right but for many years I've been trying to explain that websites is not high risk it's it should be in the medium risk category um and for that reason and and the reason why I say that is because it's an algorithm and it's a formula and if you not understand what's in that formula and in that algorithm you can always fix any problems that you might have so some that I've been heavily investing in is anything that goes wrong on one of my websites I try to exactly examine why and then it might mean that I get somebody in to help me out on the site to fix the problem so I'll give you a few problems that I've had over the years and then this will explain okay when I hit an an encounter a problem then if you understand how to reverse that and recover from that well then it's not really high risk if you know how to get yourself out of the situation so we've had link penalties previously Google search console link penalties so what did I going do we got hit with a few sites and manual action link penalty we got Rick laas who's like the godfather of this disavows and he trained us up exactly of everything that I needed to do and then I invested in Rick I no built out a brand now that does all Rick's disavows which I part own with Rick laas and we do a lot of disavows and we do a lot of recovering from websites from manual action link penalties which still happens on a week-by-week basis but people don't realize there's still hundreds and hundreds of sites per year being hit with manual action link penalties in Google search console that we're recovering for them so having that level of expertise of knowing how to get yourself out with a link penalty then you've got offer transparency penalties which I never even knew existed did so I wasn't a massive advocate of E-A-T I just thought it was an SEO myth of people trying to just trying to sell a service until I got hit manual action penalty in Google search console for off for transparency didn't even have a clue what it meant what it was started to dig a bit deeper now start to realize actually E-A-T is a thing it is is a carrot to that it is only a thing in certain industries so your money all finance especially and Google News are the main ones where I'm seeing stuff get hit for off for transparency penalties but it's quite easy to fix and remedy for that problem so how can someone say that something's high risk when for over a decade now I've had assets earning me money on a month-by-month basis yes someone could say yeah but um properties in time you're all it's there it's off physical asset you're always going to get a return on investment because you're always going to be able to rent it out and normally house prices go up well house prices don't go up at the rate of domains as what an age domain goes up age is a massive trust signal in Google so your value of your asset year on year is going up so I would throw back to you to saying is it risky um is you you could say that with anything like Google's not going to close down sorry the government aren't going to close down the internet tomorrow and if they did there's other countries that won't close it down so you're always going to be able to make money from if you highly skilled SEO you're always going to be able to make money anywhere in the world um so it's probably more high risk for the government coming saying we're going to knock your house down to build a road through your house or something like I know you get you get paid for it but what I'm trying to say to you is it's it if it comes a problem where in like in the UK um in the casino market taxes are going up and up and up and up so is that a market I would try to persuade someone to enter no is it is it a declining market yes it's still a lot of money you can have made but in the UK casino is not that good because taxes are going higher and higher and higher and compliance is getting harder so for that reason I probably wouldn't kind of double down on that but I would do in other areas people are always going to need um a plumber an electrician a roofer roofs are always in 20 30 years going to get kind of damaged and what you're going to do allow water to come in your house no you're going to get it repaired if you get locked out your house you're going to ring up a locksmith they're always going to need there's always going to be that demand and people go well what about AI well AI doesn't is not an a locksmith that's going to come and get you in the door yes it can rank websites for you and help you with content but it's not you the is not going to find you a locksmith to come out and do it it's not going to find you a roofing company to come and fix your roof it's not going to find you a plumber to come and install a new shower room so you you you basically you've got to be kind of diversify where you're going to make your money from but the internet's always going to be SEO's always going to be massively lucrative you just got to find where things might be dropping and like you said diversify like you said you you quit from doing badminton because it wasn't for you maybe probably the biggest industry that I think is going to get hit within SEO is display ads um a lot of people run display ads on the site and they're ranking for a lot of informational based type terms that get a lot of traffic but that traffic's going to slow down with AI because SGE is going to come in and answer the query without them clicking through to your website so I do worry for certain people that just build sites out and just solely monitor purposes display ads which we've got some of those sites so I'm trying to diversify them a little bit more to say all right how can these make money in other ways because Ezoic ad serve medline um Google AdSense my traffic might start dropping when they do show AI but I think as an industry it's always going to be evolving and I think there's always going to be billions and billions to be made every single year within this industry.

Unknown: I mean that's a great perspective um but for the Google AdSense and the display ads I think what if somebody says like okay Google owns most of the AI technology and they're kind of like hidden investors do you think there's still a possibility for them to be at like kind of on the edge with AdSense the whole model with display ads if sorry explain again if if what so if uh Google uh has a model of Google AdSense and makes them money like for advertisers and publishers and and they've got ties with the AI you know like the whole uh hierarchy um why would you say like the display ads would be kind of like the pinnacle on the on the boat where it could be leveraged over other contextual uh ads you know like in affiliate sites and stuff cuz someone would say like okay Google AdSense like Google's already like on the top of the hierarchy why would they just like not allow display ads flourish and flourish with time.

James Dooley: um I think because I think they'll make more money off PPC than display ads um if so if you think about this um idea and and I'm not sitting at Google headquarters but if I was sitting at Google headquarters with some of the most intelligent people in the world they make a little bit of money per impression on Google AdSense right they make a lot per click on pay-per-click so if they could when someone does a search give them the answer as quickly as possible if it's a top of the funnel type term so if it's like um how to remove red wine out of carpet right but no one's bidding on that term for pay-per-click right if you could if they could answer that but then quickly shown with SGE five other questions that you might have and one of them other questions is like check out the best carpet cleaners and then there's loads of affiliates that are bidding on that or find a a specialist um carpet cleaning company and with the clicks on to that again loads of people are wanting to bid on that you're getting them from a top of the funnel search term very quickly more to a bottom of the funnel where willing where people are willing to pay per per click so what Google are doing which I think is very clever with SGE and people are being annoyed with the whole scenario of SGE I feel they getting the user journey from the top of the funnel to the bottom of the funnel and they make more money at the bottom of the funnel because a lot more people are willing to pay for the PPC and a lot of people don't pay for PPC at the top of the funnel if that makes sense.

Unknown: okay makes sense um yeah coming to the rank and rent uh rise and fall like 2021 like it was all hyped and you know people like rank and rent and this and that and I saw a lot of those players kind of like uh failing over time what do you think like those SEOs couldn't uh have that factor or that thing that didn't make them like succeed as much as you like in rank and rent model.

James Dooley: so so this there's two there's two words in the um the rank and the rent yeah the renting's really really easy if you can rank 99.9% of the industry in the SEO industry can't rank they all talk a good game but they can't rank so they all they all there's still people out there that preach right good quality content and links will come naturally and they don't do any back links and you're just like well all that you're doing on the rank and rent model is just trying to rent a site that generates no leads and they're going to get no return on investment and they go a rank and rent model doesn't work no you just don't know how to rank that that's the truth of it that's the hooks and crooks of it so anyone that failed in rank and rent is generally because they can't rank if you've got a website that's ranking and you're generating good quality and ranking for the right keywords and you're generating good quality leads how can you not make money off it because would a plumber pay you for a perfect lead of what they want to do where they can make good money on it of course they would would a joiner pay for you for good quality leads of course they would with a carpet clean if you got an inquiry from the Marriott hotel that needs 500 carpets for different rooms being cleaned and that's what they do would they want that lead of course they would so it's not the it's not the rank and rent model it's that people just don't know how to rank that's what it comes down to people too people and willing they go and do a $29 course online and think they're an SEO expert and they're not and you know that's sack it as well like deep down you know how many people come to you or argue with you that links don't work or oh I don't want to buy your links to a bit blackhat and stuff like that well that's fine but you're not going to rank do you know what I mean it's like they go well I can rank and they show you something they're ranking for and the traffic's going up and up on the site but they're like ridiculously longtail keywords that they're not monetizing they're not monetary keywords some people can rank top of the funnel stuff and show you all these ranking like the ranking jumps and the traffic jumps and it's like that's fine but how much money does that site make and you're like oh I'm making 150 pound a month and they're getting a million clicks and you're like like come on like stop chasing traffic and try and start chasing ROI and that's what a lot of people don't do in the industry so it's not the model doesn't work it's just they're missing an important ingredient which is ranking the website for the right quality keywords yeah makes sense uh I had few people come to me and they were like I'm a white hat and you're a black hat and I had to like get into an explanation like why you're not a white hat and I'm not a black hat and we are grey hat like what your thoughts on those people who kind of classify like oh this is white and this is black like how do you see these SEOs and what's your perspective.

James Dooley: I think it's ridiculous I think it's absolutely ridiculous of being honest like anyone that does anything to try to rank higher in Google according to Google guidelines is a blackhat like is is like against their Google guidelines yeah so at that point any SEO that writes content that tries to rank higher in Google right is going against their guidelines pretty much right anyone obviously acquiring links against Google guidelines so what do you do do you sit there and follow Google guidelines but never rank a website in in in your life right and you struggle to rank and then you mourn all day or do you make a living put money on the table that feeds your kids feeds your wife feeds your family has good experiences and you can go traveling and do nice things you tell me what you choose to do sit there when I'm following Google guidelines and not making any money or you don't follow Google guidelines and you make a load of money and you have a happy life happy wife happy kids happy experiences well it's you choose what whatever hat you want if you want to call it a hat it's just what SEOs have kind of determined oh you're black hat you're white hat and then some people in between go a bit of a grey hat like I'm a return on investment hat that's if you want to call a hat that's what I put money in and I want money out and that's what hat I wear I love that maybe the next cap in the next podcast we going to like yeah get the ROI cap I might have one here somewhere so so whether it's black or white at like it's just like I I I don't like people kind of branding themselves and being part of a cult they all way the white hat it's because like we're conditioned as human beings to just conform and just obey and that kind of comes from the you know white collar jobs people they're like I don't want a boss and they come into SEO and they're like I'm going to make my own living but I still need to conform you know like that subconscious belief do you think that factor is playing with this why high you know.

Unknown: yeah I mean some people I've spoke to previously think it's illegal like literally think it's like illegal it's like no there's nothing illegal about it right you can follow like there's certain things where people put certain guidelines in place about um in the UK about taxes and stuff like that where if you've got um like people like you got T one like the rule let's say the rules are here you want to be as close to the rules as you can you want to be legal with everything that you do but you want to make certain that you you've got a good kind of tax accountant that can try to make certain that you're paying the least amount of tax legally as possible but like you've got to you you yeah it's a difficult one you've got to follow to a certain you've got to follow guidelines legally but then this is just guidelines for them to say we we don't think you should be buying links and stuff like that now don't get me wrong we do a hell of a lot of writing great quality content we do a a lot of data studies we do a lot of surveys we naturally try to get links to those pages we do a lot of infographics we create a lot of unique videos we are trying to get natural links and to be fair in the last 18 months a lot more people are willing to link out because they see it as being it's good for their site and citing the source and all the rest of it so you can get some natural backlinks but you just need to do in my opinion you just need to do what works um and that is writing good quality content I agree take having a website built technically well so it loads fast but it's it's nice for conversions so like CTR is good that they can internal link to other pages and stuff like that good that it's got the E-A-T signals it's got like a an address behind the site it's got a company telephone number an email address you then write multiple articles about the topic so you're building up topical authority and then you getting niche relevant powerful backlinks so that's the holy grail of SEO in a nutshell there's obviously nuances to it but that's generally what you need to be doing those four pillars so say these are like the top ranking factors at the moment in SEO yeah I think they always have been to be fair mate I think there's a lot of there's a you can break down I could sit there all day and break down what good quality content means I could sit there all day about topical authority but people have gone too broad now on topical authority and they're creating pages that are getting zero search volume and they're just not worth having so like James Dooley sells pink fluffy toys right okay that's built out my topical authority and Google no no one searches that so like there's certain pages you shouldn't be building that people are building that's just wasting their information retrieval costs and Google don't like it um these links like you know that these good links and these bad bad bad links so you can't say buy links or get links because you can over optimize anchor texts you can buy toxic links you can buy non-trusted or non-powerful links do you what I mean one of your PBN homepage links has got 100 times more power than someone doing a blog comment but that's still a backlink and a backlink but it doesn't mean they've got the same power do you get what I mean so there differences on within each nuance of what what works the best and what doesn't I mean what's your what's your backlink strategy what's your favourite backlink strategy we're talking about links now so so on links um it it depends so if let's say a look at a local website um we go and build out the content initially um make certain we're covering again all the E-A-T signals having an address on there telephone number and stuff like that on there and then once all that's done we go and try and buy maybe 100 to 200 citations so they are generally speaking they are naked URLs no follow um just business directory type um links so do they pass any power no but what it's doing is it's diversifying your anchor text right from the very start you've got a load of naked URL links and you've got loads of no follow backlinks right then what we'll probably then try to do a after that would be kind of do a bit of a launch oh this company's gone live um with a press release so press release will probably get you 300 because it's a syndicated kind of press release will probably get you probably with 300 backlinks again majority of them maybe 260 270 of those are no follow we'll only do either naked URLs or branded anchors whatever the name of the business is kind of goes back to the site so now I've started off and I've got my foundational links and my pillow links in place where I've got loads of branded naked URLs and no follow links right well that's great is that going to rank your site no but it's needed to start with right after that then if you're buying let's say from yourself with regards to PBNs that does good quality PBNs you can then start to get away with obviously having a do follow backlink which you I don't think any one of your clients is ever going to say can have a no follow backlink they're all going to say I want do follow but you got a do follow backlink and then you can start doing like money terms um to the website now what you might do is I would still probably do it to the homepage initially I just hit the power to the homepage with like different branded anchors so I might put keyword with brand keyword with brand and stuff like that so I'm still being really clean with my um anchor texts and stuff like that but now I'm starting to get some page rank what's a time frame what's a time frame uh month one month two all this is pretty quickly to be fair so like the if you think of it when a business first starts out people are scared going oh you need the link watch it I agree you need content velocity and link velocity but when you first start a business a natural business goes all out in the first few months and not not a real business not an SEO a real business tries to get himself shared everywhere so the the citations and stuff it just it's just natural so I might you might only get like maybe like say five PBN links or something like that then you can then start getting some guest posts like which are really really really relevant kind of the what you're trying to rank for on your money site you that's what you're kind of writing for on the guest post so you're linking up the relevance again on those you can then start to get exact match anchors on those you can start to get exact match anchors because you've got a page here that you're trying to rank on the guest post for a key word but then in that you've got the keyword then going oh no here's a better resource for it so they work well and then you've got like niche edits or link insertions which work pretty well the relevance isn't as good but normally it's on an existing page it's got some sort of power um and all these are do follow backlinks then so as long as you I we try not to do exact match like to try to repeat an anchor we always try and do different anchors all the time do different variations um and then at that point then it's trickling whatever whatever else is needed if all the if if the rest of your competition have got a lot more homepage links you might need some more homepage links if they've got a lot more relevance in their backlink profile you might need some more guest posts if you're needing some more in a page powerful links you might need some niche edits um you could six months down the line if you've got like a GMB setup and a YouTube video and an image do another press release but then make it certain that you embedded your video putting the image on there putting your um obviously your NAP listing and all that on on the press release and kind of do that again just to kind of get an influx of new IPs again um and building obviously new content covering the topic in its entirety so if you're missing an article that your competition have got write it bigger and better than don't have to be bigger actually just better than theirs sometimes it's better not writing it bigger might just write it more concise but with more entities on the page that's my best an article should be as short as possible but as long as necessary now that is a quote that people should use because people think if my competition's got 1500 words I need to have 1800 words no if you can say it in 1200 words but get all the entities on the page that's needed to rank that's better like too many people are like oh the the these no wrote 1500 1800 mine has to be 2,000 just writing fluff you're you're repeating yourself you're writing fluff make it concise give the readers what they want in the least amount of words as possible but then cover all the different topics and might like certain questions that people might have um and and that's how you expand on your content but try and be as concise as you can with with what you do um but that's on content anyway but for the links it's mainly those I don't really think there's much more oh sometimes you do some digital PR um but I mean that they are a nightmare digital PR companies like you can spend £10,000 on a digital PR campaign and you go back to him two months later and say right okay what backlinks have you gotten gone yeah I've got you one and it's a no follow oh I've got you one it's an unlinked mention I'm like we spent £10,000 on that and it's like yeah well we did this campaign for you and we like right okay so sometimes it's hard you need big budgets if you're going to start getting in the realms of um digital PR okay James like beautiful strategy I follow it uh citations no follow then do follow PBN niche edit guest post I rank my site top three now what is there any sustainability like any links or I'm going to just stay there forever if somebody's wondering obviously I'm not happy being top three I want to be number one yeah why why be you're second place you're first loser like why why why go and lose 50% so like if if number one result gets 5% of the clicks it varies from niche to niche as well but they say gets 5% of the clicks number two only it gets 20% so you're happy being 50% down on the amount of clicks that you can have now you you you're going until you're number one and you fight until you're number one so for that reason if I'm number let's say I'm you saying top three so let's say I'm position number three guess what I need more links and more content I might not need more it might not be more content as long as I've covered the topic in its entirety and I'm really happy that I've covered every subtopic I need to on that kind of niche each one of these pages might need links every single one of them might need links especially all the supporting documents which have internal linking to my main page might need links and at that point if you're still not ranking them one you're buying the wrong type of links because generally speaking if you buy some decent powerful do follow relevant links you'll rank like there's no ifs buts you will rank okay I ranked number one um yeah how do I stay number one exactly the same way so you building content velocity and link velocity um you might need way less like some I know some people stop when they're at number one and and I I don't think you should stop you you can slow down how much link velocity so if I'm if I'm ranking number three I might do one new article a week so it's that's four a month and one new backlink I normally every article that I do I normally do a backlink with it so my article velocity my link velocities both going up um if I if I'm number one I might want to do one a fortnight or even one a month because I might not have that many new topics to talk about so if I come across a new product or new service I'll write about it I'll do a backlink I write about it I do a backlink if I start dropping down I'm like whoa whoa whoa my competition are overtaking me then I'll start stepping it back up and it's generally to do with more content velocity and link velocity and do you have any percentages for this link velocity to stick to number one like in your do you have any so any like okay 20% link velocity or 20% less links like do you have that formula with you like it iterate completely various from niche to niche because majority of the time once I've got to number one in some of these especially in local industries right you're going to remain number one even if I don't do any new articles or any new backlinks because number two and number three result aren't doing much in SEO anyway they're not doing that much so you're probably going to stay there without doing anything but if you're in casino and you're ranking number one for best casino sites if that one who's ranking number one at the moment drops to number two guess what they're going to start doing more of content and links so guess what you need to do to maintain that position content and links yeah and then in those industries it is literally a fight every single week against other good SEOs but in those industries you could be making 100,000 pound on one page a month so if someone turn around to me says I can maintain number one rankings and it's going to cost you 10 grand a month well you tell me how many articles you can have written and how many links you can have written for 10,000 a month you can get a lot done so you've got you've got the budget to be able to spend on on like say the casino market terms in local you might you might not even need to do any you might need to do one every six months and it might be fine um and if you start to drop you can do a bit more but like I said casino you might still need be doing 10 a week you're always kind of competing in it in SEO always yeah you've got there's no point in doing what you're saying if I'm ranking for a local plumber website I'm ranking number one and I follow the same strategy that as my casino where I'm doing 10 new articles a week and 10 new backlinks a week to be fair mate it's probably 10 new articles a day and 10 new backlinks a day in the casino market if I go and do that in the local in the local plumbers website what's the point I'm already number one for my turn I can't get higher than Google search you know I mean like I'm always the number one result like the you've just got again it comes back down return on investment if I go and buy 10 if I go and buy new 10 10 new articles and 10 new backlinks what extra am I going to get nothing well what's the point in doing it like you've just got to try to do just about enough to maintain to be number one um and if someone does overtake you then obviously start stepping it back up but casino is a much much different beast to local SEO for sure I think casino cannabis niche pay their loans like yeah these are the hardest yeah yeah one one of my clients just came in for CBD oil for top 100 just few days ago so I like so I'm I'm I'm gonna do something with it but yeah coming back to Google updates Google updates yeah so how do you handle Google updates because there's a lot of times when a client comes to me and he's like Google update and my site's uh on page eight it was on page one and it's because of you your links and I'm like bro just wait for three days you know and fourth day the ranking comes back like how do you kind of define like oh it's a Google dance oh this is a ranking drop and this is where I need to take necessary steps how do you kind of navigate.

James Dooley: you you've got to do a lot of networking in the industry um because every update could be different so like the most recent update um start September um that was all to do with and all my test say everything on that was to do with the content it obviously was called the helpful content update but sometimes what they normally do is they'll roll out two or three changes they'll dial up two or three different things at the same time but on this on all of my data is showing that it's content related all of it um which is very unusual because like I said normally they'll they'll say it's link based but they'll change something on content as well or they say it's content based and there'll be some dial changed on they might have more emphasis on relevance of links or more emphasis of power um of links but on this one it's mainly come down to the quality of the content how many pages do you have that aren't ranking in Google um so how much are you wasting of their crawl like when they're coming to like crawl index and score your site how many pages do you have that are crap and if you got lots of pages that are crap Google's going to put you a site-wide penalty even though you might have two or three really good pages you've got 200 pages over here that aren't good and and we've got to crawl all these pages all the time I'm not going to return to your website very much until you sort this out because you're wasting our crawl budget so content pruning has become massive so many sites these thousands of sites been hit from like a million clicks a month down to like 30 40,000 clicks a month um they've lost like literally like some of them lost like 90% of the traffic um and that was content based but but then obviously there is at certain times of the year these link based spam updates um which could be to do with them trying to combat PBN it could be them trying to combat um link link farms so like there's so many guest post sites out there at present what a PBN's it's unbelievable and the bad the the part of bad link neighborhoods where Google is seeing that people are constantly they're linking to to casino CBD they're linking to all these different places um there is a toxicity threshold of what each site has um one thing that I never used to believe in again was disavows of those but then when we got hit and we started to understand I used to just chase DR and traffic and never really look at trust and toxicity but trust and toxicity is a massive component of understanding what a good link and a bad link is so when we start looking at that now we start to understand right okay we in this industry in the casino market prime example our toxicity threshold might be way higher than in a local plumbers market we can build way more links without it becoming a problem but Google just changes the dials of what toxicity threshold that can have what kind of how how much emphasis they put on relevance how much do they put on the content and it's just overall you've got to try and do as many things right as you can um tick as many boxes as you you can so like you said like this is why I was trying to make certain I get the the no follow naked URL kind of diversified backlink profile because if they do start saying if your percentage of do follow to no follow backlinks is above 60% we're going to penalize you well I'm hoping that mine's that diversified that I won't get penalized if more than 10% of your anchor text is x y and zed we're going to penalize you well I'm hoping that mine's quite diversified that that's not going to happen so you're trying to preempt what Google might be trying to do and and just keep just have safety nets in place to say okay we're going to try and get through it but no one ever knows truthfully what the next algorithm update is going to be you've just got to try and find out what it is reverse engineer it follow good people in the industry to see what their thoughts are are on it you you try and look at who won in your industry that's gone up see what they've done that you've not and then try to implement certain things going okay they're better than me at x y and zed well I need to improve on this then and after you take necessary or plan to take some necessary steps after the Google update like what's a time frame where you decide okay the testing teams can come in and see what's working the best now like what's a to be honest with you stuff that the um if you go and if you go and fix and you try and fix everything it might take four or five months before Google rescores your website so you might have done something for four months that's really really helping your website but you won't know and some people then give up because what they'll do is they'll they've been here some people tell them it's this this and this they'll go and implement everything of what they they've been told to do which might be the right kind of format of what they need to work on and then they give up and if they were have carried on doing what they was doing it could be six months it could there's times where this helpful content update the previous one was like nine months prior and now they've rerun it so like it could it could be a while but some stuff's pretty instant so it's it's it's weird because there's times where like disavows normally take around 8 to 10 weeks before he start seeing a like a surge back I don't know if they need to recrawl everything and do everything on that front but that normally takes around 8 to 10 weeks but the content are of things and cleaning that up and deleting the content yeah it could take sometimes it could be four five six months be too many people like you said right uh before too many people jump on the bandwagon and it could just be might not even be an update it could be the random ranking factor that there is so people drop off and it could be a cannibalization issue internally on the website could be a lot of different different things and people just go a and they put blame on one thing and you and you look at a site and you go m i could name 20 things that you're doing wrong but they just go and say saki it's your PBNs what I mean or oh it's your guest post that you're buying oh it's this it's just like it's normally collection of several things that you're doing wrong that normally gets you hit hard I mean it's crazy the amount of blame you get for just doing SEO and just being link seller full time yeah but it also has a lot of good effects like on your anti fragility and mindfulness aspect and then you realize like oh there's a way of communicating to the clients as well and kind of yeah not everybody's going to receive the same but you kind of understand the game a bit better what James what do you think like a lot of SEOs are doing today that's kind of irrelevant and they're wasting their energy good question what they doing irrelevant see I don't see I normally only speak to and it sounds it sounds quite harshest but I normally only speak to high level people that are doing well so normally a lot of them that are doing things well they're obviously going to double down on um some people are still obsessed with right on on the content a lot of people are still to this day writing related content right so whoever's ranking number one they're copying their content they're not doing any information gain they're not bringing anything new to the table that Google now knows oh blah this is this site's good it's just copying it now if you think about that mindset and mentality if you just did correlated content Google's got a massive problem because if the number one result if I went and click on number one result and I wasn't happy and I press back and I go back to Google and I click on the number two result and the number two results correlated to the number one result which means that it's copied that that kind of content well I wasn't happy with the number one result so I know not going to be happy with the number two result or the number three result or the number four result or the number five result so Google now started to combat and they have been doing for a while people that just do correlated content and they want to try to start making certain that the content is unique which people do in so it's passing copyscape and stuff like that but also what they're bringing to the table that's additional that previous that they didn't know previously it's called information gain where some people just doing copy paste content and thinking then it's good enough well it's ranking for them and not really looking at well they've got a lot more topical authority and a much higher backlink profile than you so if you want to outrank them you need to go way above and beyond getting more entities on the page than than not um I think a lot of people it's not what they're doing that's wrong I think it's what they not doing if I'm being honest with you so a lot of people are I don't know why this is dividing the industry one uh obsessed with it seems to be like this side over here obsessed by links right and they feel like if no matter how good this is no disrespect you but know how how good your links are right if you build links to a page that's got bad content on there it won't rank right you need content that meets the content of the search and good quality links but a lot of link people are just obsessed by you need more links you need more links you need more links you need more links and you're like no you need to improve the content as well as doing more links and then over this side everyone who's obsessed with content links don't work links don't work links don't work and it's like so it's just so there only really the ones who have and I would say relatively advanced at go that and that work well together stop saying it's that or that so I think it's not what they're doing wrong it's just what people are missing within the strategy that they're not doing enough of that the reason why a lot of these people are failing so it's like bridging the gap between the two extremities exactly yeah do you think SEOs kind of struggle with um entitlement like sometimes you know like you meet people they're like too much into content or sometimes you meet SEOs and they're too much into links do you think it's just like um a ego thing if they change sides and they're like no I don't want to be there I'm not that SEO you know like what your thoughts on that yeah kind of I mean not not many people change the religion or the cult do you know what I mean or like if I sport man united I'm not now going to start changing the sport in Liverpool because Liverpool are doing better all Man City because they're doing better so C certain people that follow a process kind of stick to it and the point is is that you should never have a cult and you should never have a set process in SEO it's never changed it's always so it's always changing it's ever evolving and you need to have the mindset that every single day is a school day and you've got to be learning every single day now if I need to change my hat for my return on invest well I won't never need to change it because if I'm return on investment hat I just I just change my strategy for what is working if that means I need to put more emphasis on more content that's what I'll do if it means more links that's what I'll do if it means more entities on a single page that's what I'll do if it means more internal links that's what I'll do if it means more images on a page that's what I'll do if it means more videos on a page that's what I'll do I will find out what's needed because it's an algorithm which then means it's a formula which then means you can reverse engineer it and what's needed that's what I will do is is getting the best bank from my buck and the best return on investment makes sense makes sense I'd say like for me what I've observed is just like if I meet the link people or the content people or the PR people it's just that safety aspect like I feel safe here if you take me there I won't feel safe anymore and it's all to do with kind of letting go in the mentality and talking to you I can see like you have a good mentality of letting go and you understand the nature of life and people come and go like what are your thoughts on the audience for the audience to kind of develop this mindset like the stoic you know like SEO mindset but in this industry it's needed more than ever.

James Dooley: um you need to learn to let go you need to learn to like accept defeat at times if something you've done previously works it might no longer work now stop being so stubborn in thinking that you always think you know best you don't um you need to EV every single day be learning and you need to embrace exactly the mindset that you're talking about you've always ever since I've met you um you've always had this kind of chilled and more environment of being like it's fine we will sort it and it will work and it's a it's a great mindset and mentality to have um people I think people need to it's difficult because we're all brought up in different upbringings in different parts of the world in different cultures so people need to adapt and learn and train their own mindset to kind of let go and be a better person within himself but some people might find that difficult um it's mainly because the the lack of education of that that they can't do it but if they can do then and they're willing to learn and they're willing to let go at situations then they'll be a much much better SEO long term and a much better individual and human being um just in general in all walks of life yeah you have to lose your current tribe to get to a better tribe you know so I think that kind of bridges the gap but coming to parasite SEO yeah yeah a lot of uh top industry players kind of promoting it freely and saying that this could be here and we should take as much advantage as we can and what do you see the future of parasite SEO is it going to persist or um I think it'll always be here and people have spoke about parasite SEO but they've they've forgetting that it's been here for over a decade it's not this isn't new um it's just that people now only just catching on to it we've done parasite SEO for over 10 years um and do you remember when I said before when I said about um guest posts and if you're buying a guest post you're trying to get it to to rank for a keyword for the keyword that your money site wants to rank for in an ideal situation where we're at is that we always try to make certain that obviously we're ranking number one for the keyword we want to rank for but then number two is our guest post which is classed as being parasite SEO that that guest post is getting traffic and clicks through to your website now people have started to leverage it also for different links out to like say affiliate affiliate clicks and stuff like that which we've done as well in in the iGaming industry so in the casino industry if my not that DR means everything but if my DR is only 55 and I can get a placement on Outlook India right or another site which might be a DR 90 site and I could write a good quality article on that site that is good enough to rank try to get one or two internal links if the editors allow you to get one or two internal links through to that page then send so a lot of people are getting it wrong where they just think they can write an article on a site and that's it good enough it's not right once you've once you've done that if you can try to get two internal links if you can happy days if you can get more even better if you can't get any even even if you can get a couple hit a few of your PBNs through to that URL and then hit a signal buy um signal.com do like an engagement um blast so what it does is they go and share that URL on something like 300 Reddit forums um Facebook Twitter basically on social media and they normally ask it a question normally ask the community a question like can you just check this is working well what it's doing is it's not just the social signals it's getting people clicking on to the link going through to Outlook India's page scrolling down and checking the link works right and then from there then that engagement Google seeing that engagement through to that URL and the behavioural signals through to that URL alongside some tier two backlinks being done and then they jump up the page so it's not just the DR of the site it's the engagement signals and the tier 2 backlinks and good quality content which is getting that to rank and is that going to go I don't think it is and the me the reason being is because Google's always going to use engagement signals and behavioural signals Google's always going to use page rank within its algorithm Google's always going to score the content and it's already on a really really high DR site what might change is what parasite websites to use so if Outlook India keeps being spammed and spammed and spammed all the time at some point Google might penalize Outlook India but guess what's going to happen another site's going to come along that you can do it on so it's always going to be here is it a long-term strategy no because that their site might get deleted or even worse what the difficult part is within parasite SEO is there's times where you you could rank that article and the editor might get paid money to change the affiliate links to one of your competitors's affiliate links you don't own the article like it's all out look into your site so you're renting that page out pretty much um and you don't own the property so that worries me a little bit but as long as again if you're wearing your return on investment hat if it cost you $500 for an Outlook India page $100 to write the article and maybe $200 into tier two backlinks and that's $800 as as long as you can make double or treble that back as a minimum then it's worth doing do you know what I mean so you've just got to try and work it out will it work well for your industry and niche could I get over 2,000 pound back for ranking for that key word yes do it like we don't do it in the local space because it's not it's not worth the investment of paying $800 to do all that but for some bigger terms like best casino sites stuff like that well yes in if you if it only ranked for one month it could earn you ridiculous numbers like maybe up to 100,000 pound in the month for that one page if it ranks for all the second or keywords and you've got all the right affiliate deals then yeah it could it could make you a fortune and obviously then you pay 800 pound to get 100,000 pound back it's a worthwhile investment but it's not for everyone does do these people know how to write good quality content and get the engagement signals and get the tier twos no and then at that point people then say parasite SEO doesn't work just like a rank and rent model doesn't work you don't know how to rank it so then that at that point it doesn't work but does the model work yes like a rank and rent model works parasite SEO works if you know how to do it but people don't do the signal boost kind of signals people don't do the tier twos people don't get the internal links and don't write good quality content so for those it doesn't work for people that do know how it works it works very very very well so what you're saying is like put your eggs but don't put all of your eggs into parasite SEO exactly that yeah diversify you incoming as many streams as you can um you must be selling a hell of a lot of um PBNs for parasite now like so many people like every time someone speaks to me about parasite I'm was like go and speak to Saki like he's sending links to Outlook India since the last three years it just got popular like recently so yeah I don't there was this big player in the industry and um yeah I think he mentioned you like you know all the top boys so uh so he was saying uh he was just pumping this Outlook India in times of Israel and stuff like that like two years ago and I was like what the that you know and then he's buying like 2,000 links and I'm like holy he's just sending sending sending and yeah like some pages uh kind of sustain and other pages kind get replaced so it's just yeah you have to be careful yeah you definitely got to be careful like you said in certain industries it's worth it in certain instances not but you just got to work out what industries it's worth it for um like you're doing health supplements of um stuff like that it's worth it and if you can rank for it it's worth it do you know what I mean if you can do some crypto stuff it's worth it if you're doing certain finance like mortgage brokers and stuff like that and the interest rates have just changed and there's a big spark in traffic it's worth it do you know what I mean like you've got to choose your battles of whether it's worth it or not like if um boxing so if um usyk and Tyson Fury fight on the 23rd of December if you can rank for boxing free bets or um best boxing odds or something like that two days before that fight that there's gonna be a massive surge in traffic around that time for that big big fight or have UFC's on this weekend and you could rank for whoever's fighting there's going to be a big surge of traffic for that term that weekend so for that reason sometimes parasite SEO's better than doing on your own side because you only need it to rank for 48 hours for that event hit loads of traffic hit loads of engagement from um signal boost hit loads of tier 2s rank it for 4 hours make your £100,000 done move on to the next event and and that's what some people are doing but that's where some of these are coming to you for I've referred so many people over your way for like tier twos and stuff like that for sure um coming to the next uh topic I want to cover and is to do with the GVC like joint venture partnerships like so I realized like if I kind of not ask money for the links and I can't kind of ask equity I might get a bigger return if they sell or you know uh profits shares um what are your current joint venture partnerships and how they come into your table for you and what's your advice for the people who are approaching it like for link sellers or agency owners and stuff.

James Dooley: I'd be careful as a link seller um to enter a lot of partnerships because what a lot of people do you get so many people that come come to you saying I've got this amazing idea um if you can provide me with all the links I'll give you 50% of the commissions but then I've heard so many people not get the 50% of the commissions I'll get paid a little bit and go I'll paid you for that if it worked and if it didn't work you don't get paid you're getting 50% of nothing right where if it did work they kind of feel like they should only pay you for the links so you're in a no win situation you're in a lose-lose situation where you may as well just sell the link if you get I mean unless you really know the person and you've known him for a number of years I wouldn't enter partnerships like that so many partnerships go sour and go wrong even when you know the people in your classes as being good friends with them partnerships can go wrong so if you don't know them they're pretty much going to go wrong right unless unless they're genuinely nice person partnerships are pretty much going to go wrong and over the years I'm I'm very frugal in in business decisions with what I do so I would all if let's say me and you wanted to enter a partnership in my head I want to first and foremost think of the worst case scenario so let's say we've got a site and it's doing well and then it gets absolutely decimated loses 90% traffic how are you as an individual going to be in that situation are you going to be calm chilled don't worry James we're going to find this problem we're going to sort it out or are you going to be all over the place oh I can't believe it and annoying me in a situation where I'm feeling upset and down and in the dumps that we've just lost 90% but my business partner I'm almost needing to consult him in being like I don't need you being a pain as well as us losing 90% of the traffic are these going to be like let's roll up our sleeves and work together and we'll sort it so it's sometimes it's about the person in general can I work with him when things are are going to go wrong because they might go wrong that's one bit I always look at and two I know in my partnerships I'm always going to deliver more because I've got a big team behind me than what my business partner is right I know I'm going to do more than what they are because I'm I'm built that way as well to make certain I try and do more so in my head I want my business partner when I'm looking at my business partner I expect them and this is this is you've got to think about this kind of saying I expect them if we're a 50-50 partnership that for them to be doing 60% of the work right so if they've got the mindset that they're going to do 60% of the work and I know that I'm going to do more than him all what's going to happen is they're going to do 60% I start doing more they start going oh I need to do more because they they're doing more and what it does is it elevates each other to be like wow this is good where a lot of 50-50 partnerships what starts to happen is it kind of goes down because people go well he's not putting the timing so why should I put the timing and that's where a lot of partnerships go wrong where if I've got a partner I want them to be thinking in their head yeah I'm doing a bit more but then next one I come along and do way more he's going oh god I meant to do 60% and he's just done more than me so we we like I said we're we're both climbing the ladder together we're both elevating each other it's a positive situation even when something goes wrong I don't want problems I want solutions right so in that scenario a lot of my JVs comes down to who I'm doing it with um have they got the right mindset because generally speaking in this industry long term we'll have a successful relationship long long term because we're good at what we do but can will I enjoy it with him will I enjoy that success with him or and obviously on the bits where we've hit um a trough is he going to suck or is he going to like do well with it and and a lot of it comes down to like I said comes down to mindset I'd be very very very careful with who you choose I probably I'll probably get about 50 new JV opportunities a day I get so many through like it's unbelievable like and that's and I've not even got a personal brand do you know what I mean I'm only just starting doing the podcasts so many people come to me um with opportunities I've got this site I've got that site do you want to do this 50% on the uplift of the site or do you want to do this or would you like to invest in this product would you like to invest in this service and um and it's nice to have but now I've kind of now I just my invest I've got like um a different email and it just kind of go through to them and I allow two of my team members to look through to see whether is it worth even presenting it to me and showing me what the opportunity is they all ask one or two questions back to whoever's giving me an opportunity and I'm always looking for new opportunities but I've got like a vetting process in place now where two of them will like double check is it is it worth my time to look into this further and see whether I should put some money into it or put some of my team's time into it as well sweet what's your weding process like when you get all these inquiries are you looking at like the brand making a decent number are you looking at them being significant new AI industry or a SaaS project like what's your vetting in process that that's a great question because it does vary for every single kind of opportunity so I kind of looked to say have I got a gap in what we do at present would it improve all of our own products and services of what we do anyway so if someone just comes along to be saying oh I've got a guest post in um site I've got I sell guest post I've already got one or two agencies that sell guest post don't need another so in that scenario it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be interested in investing then it's just all about the numbers I don't I don't need it but it's all about the numbers so is the numbers am I going to get it at like 18 months to two years kind of multiple and if they do well that's that's a great investment if they're wanting three or four or five years I'm thinking well I've got other opportunities that I can probably get it back within 18 months to two years so at that point I'm like it's not it's not for me it's a it might be a good proposition for some people but I'm getting a lot more opportunities so that's that's really not for me um but if it's new like if it's a SaaS AI product and I feel I could use that product for my own personal gains on the assets that we have then I'm less likely to think about how long it is before I get the return on investment back because even if it just helps my my team it'd be worth me investing in so for that it might open opportunities so if it's something I'm already in it's all about the numbers what what revenue they're doing what gross profit they're doing what net profit they're doing how many staff have they got um what kind of trends is it for the for the kind of service so if it was like fidget spinners and stuff like for kids it's like well it might want to be a six month type of timeline before the kids move on to the next product do you know what I mean but if it's a service that I think they're always going to need this service and it's evergreen and I'm might oh yeah could be could be a good opportunity but they just they I think they've got like a 20 I think it's like 28 point checklist of what they go down okay um and it and yeah some of that is gross profit net profit and stuff like that but there is times where it could be a a not profit making business at present and it might still be interested if I feel I could deliver some growth within that industry awesome and how do people uh uh watching this podcast if they are interested to you know present something I don't normally promote I've not got like a set site I mean I'm an angel investor um I'm a venture capitalist or whatever it is like I'm not I don't have a site set up where where they normally inquire through is on FatRank.com um I've got I've got a page that says like invest in digital assets and I've I think on there I say like if you've ever got an idea like getting such so what they normally do is if someone's watching this podcast and they want to present me with an idea go on to FatRank.com and go through to the contact page and just give me your idea and and not only that is a lot of them will respond back to majority of them as long as it's not ridiculously shocking kind of offer if it's not for us we might we might actually I might send a loom video on myself back to him say saying look apologies it's not really something I'm looking to invest in at the moment however if I did I would do x y and zed and I might be able to help him in some ways to say I feel like your Brandon's not on point oh I think you should start selling you've only selling guest post I think a lot of people that buy guest post also buy niche edits so I think you should offer niche edits as well do you I mean something along those lines are they've got um a decent website but they're only doing display ads and I'm like could you also do lead generation tenancy could you also do affiliate um could you also if you're getting loads of traffic could you rent out your Facebook pixel through to like a big supplier there's loads of different ways that you can monetize a brand I might just be able to help them on that front um so yeah go on to FatRank.com go on to the contact page and then present me with an idea and I can see whether it's one whether it's for us to invest into whether I put money into it or or my team into growing it um or two I can give you some feedback with whether where I feel you could improve and generate more profits on it yeah and I'll add the link to the description as well uh so you can just like go over straight away um 50 inquiries a day like how are you delegating your time like what's the team looking like I don't I don't I don't deal with that um the um some of them could be that the're mainly want in lead generation for the business and they're like I I I don't really like the rank and rent model I want you to invest in the company um come in and help us grow our own website and we'll work together on it and stuff like that so some of them straight away it's like I don't know what profit margins you're making and I don't know how to track end to end have you got a database at the moment have you got a sales team there's like certain questions like that um there's just two members of staff that just deal with we probably generate in total close to a thousand leads every single day um is how many leads we generating across the agency um and how you deleg getting your SEO tasks to non-SEO task what's your strategy we got just got the got a team so whoever so on the investment there's two people in the office that understand everything to do with whether it's a good investment or a bad investment if they both kind of come back to say good investment good investment it then comes to me so maybe one or two out of those 50 might land on my desk to say we both feel that this is a good investment and at that point then I can look into it and check because there's one thing that I can't buy and that's time um so I've got to be very I'm very very time conscious so I've got to make certain that I'm using my time in the best possible way that I can um staff and stuff like that can do major nearly all of the work so there's a lot of over like if someone tries to hit me up on Skype or anything like that it's not me it's members of my team speaking to them they're mainly like the casino affiliates and stuff like that they all seem to use Skype um and yeah I've just got a good I've got a very good team around me of middle managers so I employed a decade ago a load of apprentices um they I went down the apprenticeship route because I employed SEO gurus and SEO experts and they were shocking um and they and it was hard to teach them because it's hard I always used to say it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks so it was very very difficult to get them to change their mentality exactly what we was talking about before so I was like you know what I feel like I'm better to get a new starter out of university or college or school that doesn't know anything about SEO but they're willing to learn and work hard and that's pretty much as long as was all right I can of look and go as long as they're all right education let's say in English and maths I can train these up these look like they're going to want to work out and willing to learn and now six of those apprentices are all directors now within the company so the progression that they've done has been incredible um and some of those are like who'll look at my investment opportunities and stuff like that and then I've got like a a team of like middle management and then underneath them they'll either have me other members of staff or virtual assistants I try and make certain that everyone of my middle managers have got 10 VAs underneath them um that that that works with them and then that's so we can scale stuff out so like I might present that to two of my members of staff that could actually go out to 20 members and stuff because they might delegate it to some VAs to see their feedback to feed it back to them for them to give the feedback which feedback to me do you know what I mean so I just know who deals with it from my point of view and they can delegate it out to whoever they seem fit um so like I've got like one I've got one graphic designer and one videographer but actually on our books I think there's like 17 but I only speak to one of them and that one person I to say I want an image for this this and this they go off and do it whether they do it themselves I don't know they probably use a guy that's good on Canva do you know what I mean to create some of the images um on the videos could be I'm not really certain what kind of video editing tools that they're using and stuff but it could be someone in Bangladesh or in India or in Philippines I mean it could be South Africa Venezuela we've got VAs all over the world um that work for us that do a that do a really good job but I can't be speaking to those on a day-to-day basis because there's just too many of them so I'll speak to the one graphic designer who will manage all the graphic design team and speak to one videographer speak to the videographer team and the script writing team and the voice over team and the editing team and the YouTube shorts kind of team and like these all like different kind of people that do different roles um I just have to deal with one of them that deals with that situation I deal with one client like you you've dealt over the years plenty of times with Dan and Elliott so they they they do a lot with digital PR guest post niche edits citations and all that type of stuff there there's no point I think there's probably times you probably tried to get hold of me haven't you and and I'm like speak to Dan and Elliott I don't know like I don't really know the ins and outs exactly on a day today of what's needed on what website I know that they're absolutely amazing at what they do and they know to the expert degree because their testing team will tell them as well okay we need to start doing more directories and less do follow links or we need to start doing more do follow links because there's not enough power and they just get trained up and the team's well versed and well educated um some of them in the office well majority of them are better than me at what I like in each part of what they do but they say that's what you should do you should employ people that are better than you at stuff that you're weak at and I'm pretty much weak in every element of SEO like but my team my team each member of my team are probably in my opinion the best in the world at each element and I'm just a glue between it all that kind of presents my head of content with my technical team that does the internal linking which goes to my link building team when the site's built and stuff like that and so on and so on that I just I just understand all the moving components of what's needed and it kind of goes back to when you asked me right at the very start what did I do before SEO and I was a project manager I feel like I'm a project manager now but I'm a project manager project manager and a digital landlord not expert exactly manager exactly yeah I was talking that's that's amazing man like I do I do understand the level you're playing at but I don't really because I'm not I don't really yeah um in your position in your day-to-day and kind of have the direct experience for what you having and it's amazing like how various things you kind of having some principles and approaches and kind of you know mindset and there's so much value for the audience who's watching um yeah Kasra was on the podcast last uh three episodes ago and he mentioned like off camera on camera I don't remember that you and him get into a lot of like heated debates SEO non-SEO and there's a lot of criticism you know and I think today people like very soft and they can't really take criticism so having criticism between partners and still being able to do like top level kind of like business and have a relationship great relationship like how do you embrace criticism and get to that level of like understanding hey okay so it's very important one of the first things that we do when you was asking about um partners and stuff like that or or or just employees and members of staff and stuff like that when we first look to take them on the first month with every single member of staff right I I want try to say we make it hell but we specifically go in on them of things we don't like right so if they're a graphic designer if we something we don't like I want everyone going I don't like this I don't like that I don't like this I don't like that I don't like this I don't like that all the time and we're being almost like perfectionist with the logo and some of these logos might have been okay what normally happens in the first few days the normally ask me for a chat or if it's like if it's let's say the graphic design they might ask the graphic head of graphic design for a chat and they say like oh I don't think I'm doing very well and everyone's having a go with me and they're like no that's just part and part of it so you're trying to right from the word go get them people to embrace criticism because if they can't embrace criticism they can't work with you because if you can't be honest with someone saying that content's a load of garbage because they're going to get upset well sorry I don't want to work with you if if if you can't say I don't like that video if you don't like it there's something fundamentally wrong where you can't say something to a member of staff or to a partner that's that's rubbish of course you can say something if you don't like it if you do like it you praise them and say that's really good and I like it because of x y and zed but if you don't like it you can't just say I don't like it you need to give a reason but if it's a reason then and somebody else yeah I can see where you're coming from that could be bolder that or this could be in green might were there they go off and come back with two or three different designs and if majority say they prefer this one to that one or they prefer this one well we'll go with majority because design and content is very subjective as well so it's not just like it's not just my opinion if I prefer this design doesn't mean it's the nicest looking design if everybody else says that one's nicer I'm going to go with that one even though I think that one's nicer because design comes down to your own your own eye and what your own subjective feelings yeah so with regards to Kasra I don't know if people know this or not but Kasra I met Kasra about I don't know if it was like four years ago or something at a meet up in Liverpool and Kasra was just a web design deser um she was just doing web design for a company in Northampton and I met him and within 10 minutes of speaking to him I knew that he was really ambitious I knew he had the entrepreneurial mindset and I knew that long term I could do different businesses with him so to start with I just said to Kasra Kasra I want to offer you a job and I employed him right and for the first 12 months Kasra was just a web designer and he was building out websites and developing websites but I knew he wanted to learn and develop so in the background I was saying like do this course do that course do this course do that course so Kasra has built up this very very quickly he's been fast tracked and of doing all his courses in development and he's all he's always had the entrepreneurial mindset he's wanted to do his own things and develop and and kind of branch out and then from there then I just started opening opportunities so like someone let's say someone in the investment team might come to me saying I think this is a good idea and I might say it is a good idea but I haven't got time to put it in Kasra do you want to come and do this with me and Kasra might say yes I'll put some money into that and I'm happy to kind of run with that and Kasra is now starting to build up his own assets and develop and stuff and there but Kasra lives local to me he lives like half a mile away um and so does Scott and what we always do is we always play devil's advocate so like maybe three or four days a week we'll go into the office and it's about a 30 minute drive so when we go into the office in that 30 minutes we just debate like and it's always like sometimes even if I know an answer let's say to but is link building important right we try and play if if Kasra starts going on about oh link building is the most important Google ranking factor me and Scott will try and play devil's advocate to say why it's not even if we might think that it is so that we're all kind of showing two sides of the arguments on everything and then the next day we could be talking about internal linking and can you over optimize your internal anext and just little things like that but we're just chatting every day and we just we're just trying to debate stuff because it's it's boring if you all sit there and agree so sometimes these debates yeah the debates are good and actually start picking things up and you learn so much from like what someone might say so like Kasra at the moment like we talk a lot about AI now no one knows the full kind of implications of what AI can do yet like no one it's growing at a ridiculous rate of knots so we're always trying to see what we could do to improve our processes and using AI and embracing AI um and yeah we have great debates but we love it like we absolutely love it and and that's what I want with my business partners I want to be able to go in on a mate and be like I don't like this to try and improve it you've got best intentions at heart to improve the business and improve profits and do stuff so as long as both your partners know that well it's fine like that's what it's all about work is about trying to evolve and develop every single day in some way shape off form in my opinion beautiful perspective beautiful um yeah how how much time what's your what's your focus now like moving forward like is it going to be like the rank and rent side of things uh lead generation joint ventures uh I know you're a father to be two beautiful children um yeah how do you like kind of like balance because I heard like you trying to agree and disagree and kind of go to both sides of the pendulum to just kind of finding balance you know and uh listening to that I think you're a man of balance so what's the balance in James do like so um I to I completely like moved it another way around so instead of a work life balance right I understood that my work is not work right I love what I do I absolutely love what I do right I don't need to work another day in my life but I choose to because I love it right so knowing that I love it my work is my hobby and my interest as well right so when I know that within myself that this is like if some people like gaming that's fine I don't like gaming I think SEO is gaming that's what I like I feel like it's a game for me to do SEO so do you think us talking is a game right now we're in a game of a podcast yeah yeah okay um but the um I feel like I change it from a work life balance which then means how many hours do you put in work how many hours do you put in sleep how many hours do you put in going to the gym how many hours do you put in friends how many how many hours you put in family and stuff like that to a work life integration so I bring my wife like I met you out in Dubai right I went and met you out in Dubai and I met several other really high level SEOs out in Dubai and we go over there for a month I was with my wife and I was with my kids and my mom sometimes comes out and my friends come out so I'm having a holiday and and some of my friends at home go you always holiday you you're right you're right lazy and I'm like well no I'm not like because all the people who work with say you never switch off you're always working so I say how can like my people who work with say you work 98% of your life like you work too much and then all my friends say god I can't you don't work you you're retired you don't do anything that kind of tells me I've got a good balance yeah because I integrate it all together if I feel like I don't want to work one day I'll go out with the kids and do something I do try to make certain I do spend as much time I over the years I've read a lot of books and and listened to a lot of stories about the most successful billionaires in the world kind of a lot of people in the deathbed said I wish I'd spent more time with my family like they became obsessed with what they do so I'm trying to make certain I don't go down that route and I'm trying to make certain I spend as much time as my kids growing up as as I can so my my day today is we normally get up about five o'clock in the morning I'll pick Kasra up and Scott up we'll go into the office we'll have the 30 minutes of debates on the way into the car on the way to the office we'll go in the office from like 6 till one will work in the office maybe 6 till 9 I'm at my best like in flow state because not many people are in the office then I'm just focused and I'm getting some work done we'll work till one at one o'clock we'll go to the gym um so we're going to do a decent workout at the gym we do um a sauna a steam room and a pool like an ice bath um we like doing that kind of routine after we've been to the gym then I'll come home I'll be home for about 3 o'clock and from 3 till 7 o'clock every day I have as my kiddie time like me and my two kids and my wife so we'll go to like a soft play centre we'll go to the park we'll go on a bike ride we're going go and do something that's not in the house I don't like being in the house I I I like being in the house but I mean like I like them going out I'm not worried if it's raining if it's muddy just get out get outside and get some fresh air so we go out every day um and just go and do things um and explore go in the woods go in the forest go um out on the bike um my daughter's learning to ride her bike at the moment um my my youngest son's just turned one so he's now just starting walking so might go on the field and let him run around and if he falls over it's only in like the grass um and I feel like I've got a good balance um I see my family a lot I see all my friends a lot I still play football um but I still feel like I work as hard as I need to work um and yeah and I feel like if I segmented it I couldn't have done what I've done but because I've integrated it all together um my my wife like she understands it she she like she sometimes says for me to get her attention she'll call herself a featured snippet and like she comes up like banter like he'd give me more attention if I said that I talk about backlinks or something but we've got we've got a great uh relationship and she understands what I'm all about she she lets me like blossom and do what I want to do but in return I've got respect for home life and want to make certain that I want to be the best dad in the world but I think everybody does so I want to be the best dad in the world I want to be successful um but I want to also make certain I've got time for friends and family and and experiences like you'll see as well like when you was out like I have no watch yeah I have no tattoo I know you've got like a load of nice tattoos which is who you are but I haven't have no watch I haven't have no tattoos I've no jewellery have no expensive car I'm no materialist I'm not materialistic in any way shape or form I'm just all about experiences and memories that's that's me like it's just my my time is the best gift I can give anyone so I don't buy I I know this sounds bad oh and stuff like that but ter and my wife's got to love it like I don't buy any presents at Christmas I don't buy any presents at birthdays I don't want any presents back but indirectly I do buy presents because I'll I'll buy we'll go on holidays and we'll experience things and we'll go out and do things and stuff like that so that's kind of what I've always been about I hate materials I hate gifts I just all about experiences and memories wow beautiful answer thanks uh for sharing your heartwarming um answer I'm also being very mindful of your time so we're going to wrap into the last set of questions and yeah and yeah like following up what you said like how do you balance between like I can see from how you express and your body language and your speech like there's a level of humbleness in it like and gratitude how do you balance like gratitude and hunger for more and building an empire and like how do you connect those two because one person who's like satisfied they might think they are in gratitude but they're not like so it's kind of a slippery slope but yeah I'll ask anyways um I hate anyone that's got an end goal so someone going and put a price tag on something like all right my target is um 150 million and once I get 150 million I'll be happy no you won't like you won't if you're not happy now getting to the 150 million you won't be happy when you're at 150 million like it's all about the journey of getting where you are and certain people I've known hit target so prime example I had a good friend and um I remember remember him saying the minute I get the price tag of the business to 40 million I'm selling and I'm done I'm retiring and within six months and he was one of the healthiest guys I'd ever met um really happy had a really happy family um had a kid had a happy wife retired him within six months he killed himself now this guy never suffered from depression never suffered from anything and I remember him saying to me one time when I met him that I just feel like I'm in a massive black hole I'm like mate what are you on about and he's like I worked all my life to get to this goal and when I achieved this goal he says the easiest way of explaining was I was climbing up the mountain and I thought on the other side of the mountain would be beautiful countryside and this beautiful life when I climb down the mountain that way and when I climbed up to the top of the mountain it was a cliff edge and he says and I've got two choices I've either got a jump off the cliff edge but I thought this was this beautiful life and something else or I turned back round and walk back down the mountain I just came from and he thought that this pivotal point in his life would would hit this kind of the the top and then come back down and a lot of people that are trekking and do hikes say that sometimes it's not the destination at the top that's the best it's the the climbing up it that's the best sometimes at the top it's you can't see anything it's loads of fog it's blazing winds and it's not that nice at the top so sometimes it's the journey up that's the better um so in answer to it is yeah I I'm I'm always humble because I don't have any set goals I don't really have any oh my god you're really successful I don't even see myself as being successful from being honest I just I just enjoy life each day I enjoy family time and friend time and a lot of it a lot of the hunger now seems to come from the people that are around me having the right partners they're still maybe in their progression of like they want exponential growth and I'm part of their life and I'm part of their businesses and and I'm business partners and I'm not going to slow them down so I want them to do well and I'll push them on to be better and bigger and more successful financially or whatever but that's not really my end goal my end goal is just trying if I can wake up like I'm I'm very humble in the fact that if I can wake up every morning one that that's an achievement the every day I wake up is a bonus if if I've got a roof over my head that's more than a lot of people in the world and if I've got tap where I can turn water and cold water can come out and it's clean water there's people in the world that have to walk two kilometres to go and get clean water every single day do you know what I mean so yeah I've got gratitude yes I am humble because I understand that I'm actually in a fortunate position even if I had nothing with work that being where I've been brought up I've always had a roof over my head and I've always had clean water coming out of the tap and if I I can always kind of stay that mentality if I go out and have a steak I'm not going to compare it to another steak we know I've had a better steak I'll go I'm so fortunate that I can eat a steak you know what I mean some people can't some people are eating rice every single night so if you kind of compare I always say comparison is the thief of joy if you kind of take that out of your life and just have gratitude for everything even if it's not the nicest steak and they've over cooked it slightly you still sat there eating a eating a steak on a plate with a knife and fork some people have got to eat rice out their hands you know what I mean so if you kind of compare it to that you're going actually I'm in a good position here thanks beautiful man coming to the last segment of the podcast so this is something which we just introduced and it's kind of on the like you'll be the first guest to kind of witness it and we'll see how that goes so it's going to be rapid fire SEO round and we're going to give you two options and you just like answer which is preferable to your personality or your mindset so we're going to start with the rapid fire SEO round and the first one uh backlinks or content both I do I have to choose backlinks back Dubai or Spain Dubai SEO or horses SEO masterminds or conferences masterminds definitely and the last one who's the better SEO James Dooley or Kasra Dash obviously me.

Unknown: beautiful thanks James it's been um I think it's almost like a two-hour podcast or something thanks for coming it's been a joy for me listening to all your wisdom and SEO insights and business insights and how many topics we covered digital nomadic insights family this and that like I think I'll have to get like two edits to just subsection each each topic it's going to be a lot but yeah uh we appreciate you coming and for our listeners if you want to give them any last advice and where they can find you if they want to connect with you and stuff yeah so um I've got James Dooley.com um on there you'll find all my social profiles if you scroll down to the bottom I'm on Twitter Facebook Instagram LinkedIn uh I'm starting to do quite a lot more on YouTube um I might some like YouTube shorts from this video and stuff like that the um yeah just hit me up on any one of them ask me any questions that you want I'll try and respond when I can um keep keep grinding away if you're at the start of learning you just got to keep learning and developing your skills um there's no one course that's going to teach everything to do with SEO you've um there's different nuances from niche to niche so there's no course out there it's a perfect course for you to do just work hard enjoy your life and peace thanks James peace always mate yeah cheers man thank you very much thanks.