WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.470 --> 00:00:09.060 Dallas Campbell: Hello and welcome to In-Orbit, the podcast exploring how 00:00:09.060 --> 00:00:13.150 technology from space is empowering a better world, brought to you by 00:00:13.150 --> 00:00:15.140 the Satellite Applications Catapult. 00:00:15.190 --> 00:00:18.670 I'm your host, Dallas Campbell, and today we'll be delving into 00:00:18.670 --> 00:00:20.390 the Carbon Accounting Project. 00:00:20.720 --> 00:00:25.805 I'm joined by Russ Hall, he's the lead for Reduction of Industrial Emissions and 00:00:25.815 --> 00:00:31.385 Net Zero at the High Value Manufacturing Catapult and Amy Peace, Innovation Lead 00:00:31.385 --> 00:00:33.625 for Circular Economy at Innovate UK. 00:00:34.125 --> 00:00:37.775 Carbon Accounting is the monitoring and measuring of any emissions produced by 00:00:37.775 --> 00:00:41.685 an organisation, whether that be on site, due to commuting or business travel, 00:00:41.855 --> 00:00:44.225 or through supply chain processes. 00:00:44.535 --> 00:00:48.325 The Carbon Accounting Project is focusing on the manufacturing industry with a 00:00:48.335 --> 00:00:54.165 goal to streamline the overly complex landscape of tools, methods and regulation 00:00:54.165 --> 00:00:59.065 of carbon accounting, positioning the UK as the place for green manufacturing. 00:01:00.543 --> 00:01:01.813 Hello, hello, welcome to the show. 00:01:01.833 --> 00:01:05.213 Maybe we could start a little, because I always find people's grand titles 00:01:05.323 --> 00:01:07.043 hide all kinds of interesting things. 00:01:07.413 --> 00:01:10.143 So maybe you could, in your own words, you could just explain 00:01:10.143 --> 00:01:11.156 a little bit about what you do. 00:01:11.276 --> 00:01:14.176 Amy Peace: So essentially kind of our role is there to be the 00:01:14.176 --> 00:01:19.576 technical leads on certain subjects for aligning government innovation 00:01:19.716 --> 00:01:22.506 funding to business led innovation. 00:01:23.136 --> 00:01:28.526 So my role is a bit of, sort of working out what sort of programs we should 00:01:28.526 --> 00:01:33.646 actually fund, what topics are relevant, but then the interesting bit is actually 00:01:33.646 --> 00:01:37.366 getting a little eye in on some of the projects that we do fund, seeing what 00:01:37.366 --> 00:01:41.576 learning's coming out of it, so we can affect what other programs we decide to 00:01:41.576 --> 00:01:45.371 put money towards or just seeing where there are connections between different 00:01:45.371 --> 00:01:47.171 projects that really need to line up. 00:01:47.171 --> 00:01:52.481 So on a good day, it's like having your own personal TED Talk, hearing so many 00:01:52.481 --> 00:01:56.501 different topics, obviously circular economy does cover all different sectors. 00:01:56.501 --> 00:01:57.516 Dallas Campbell: How do you mean it's a bit like having 00:01:57.516 --> 00:01:58.546 your own personal TED Talk? 00:01:58.566 --> 00:01:59.786 Like you're not doing the TED talk. 00:01:59.786 --> 00:02:02.871 Amy Peace: I mean, no, I mean, you are listening to people at the cutting 00:02:02.871 --> 00:02:06.586 edge of innovation and you know, one minute you're hearing about the battery 00:02:06.586 --> 00:02:10.366 recycling, the next minute about satellite technology, then you're on to things 00:02:10.366 --> 00:02:13.459 in sort of the textiles world and you can all have little bits of interest 00:02:13.459 --> 00:02:17.229 in it, but just some of the deep depths that you get kind of out of them is... 00:02:17.429 --> 00:02:18.209 Dallas Campbell: That's nice. 00:02:18.239 --> 00:02:20.689 Every day is a learning day for you, every day is a school day. 00:02:20.859 --> 00:02:23.489 Amy Peace: I mean, they're the good days, you know, the bad days, more of... 00:02:23.649 --> 00:02:23.989 Dallas Campbell: us about... 00:02:23.989 --> 00:02:25.749 Amy Peace: Public sector bureaucracy, but you know. 00:02:27.118 --> 00:02:29.568 Dallas Campbell: And Russ, Russ Hall, you're at the High Value 00:02:29.578 --> 00:02:32.968 Manufacturing Catapult, lead for reduction of industrial emissions, 00:02:32.968 --> 00:02:35.618 that's fairly self explanatory, is it? 00:02:35.638 --> 00:02:36.868 Or is there more to it than that? 00:02:37.123 --> 00:02:38.613 Russ Hall: So I have two roles. 00:02:38.613 --> 00:02:42.273 One is for the High Value Manufacturing Catapult as a whole, which is the 00:02:42.683 --> 00:02:46.323 lead for the reduction of industrial emissions and I'm the lead for Sustainable 00:02:46.333 --> 00:02:49.173 Manufacturing and Circular Economy at Warwick Manufacturing Group, which is 00:02:49.173 --> 00:02:52.733 a, one of the centres that makes up the High Value Manufacturing Catapult. 00:02:53.223 --> 00:02:59.536 My role really is to help industry understand why reducing its carbon 00:02:59.536 --> 00:03:04.463 emissions is important, but also to help them understand how they can do 00:03:04.463 --> 00:03:08.543 that and how they can measure those reductions year on year to show that 00:03:08.553 --> 00:03:11.953 they are making the improvements that they need to do for the UK to meet 00:03:11.953 --> 00:03:13.523 its legal obligation for net zero. 00:03:13.658 --> 00:03:14.098 Dallas Campbell: There we go. 00:03:14.318 --> 00:03:15.608 You both sound really optimistic. 00:03:15.608 --> 00:03:19.709 I mean, the race to net zero or getting to net zero, I mean, just on 00:03:19.709 --> 00:03:23.579 a general question before we start, I'm interested in how optimistic you 00:03:23.579 --> 00:03:29.119 are or are things going to plan or do we need a big kind of boost in this? 00:03:29.119 --> 00:03:30.719 I'm sort of curious from where you're sitting. 00:03:30.894 --> 00:03:34.274 Amy Peace: I mean, from my perspective, I see lots of things 00:03:34.304 --> 00:03:36.304 that could really help us get there. 00:03:36.674 --> 00:03:40.834 The barrier does seem to be not necessarily on the technology side. 00:03:41.350 --> 00:03:44.030 But the people and societal side, implementing these... 00:03:44.190 --> 00:03:45.785 Dallas Campbell: People are messy, this is the problem, people 00:03:45.785 --> 00:03:47.325 are so messy and difficult and 00:03:47.640 --> 00:03:50.910 Amy Peace: Exactly, and just assuming that, well, we've got the right things, 00:03:50.920 --> 00:03:54.130 surely logic will prevail and we'll end up with the right things in the right 00:03:54.130 --> 00:04:00.050 place and I think the fact that, looking at some of these things 20 plus years 00:04:00.050 --> 00:04:04.957 ago, when I sort of started my career and we're still kind of, don't feel like 00:04:04.957 --> 00:04:09.277 we've moved the curve enough yet and it is going to take proper industrial 00:04:09.277 --> 00:04:13.887 revolution scale change to get us there and we've gone from being able to do this 00:04:13.897 --> 00:04:17.747 nice and gently, to looking at the curve for where our carbon emissions need to go 00:04:17.747 --> 00:04:20.087 and it's an absolute cliff face precipice. 00:04:20.987 --> 00:04:25.165 So it's nice to have technologies and things there, but just to get that kick 00:04:25.195 --> 00:04:26.775 that we need to get us down that cliff... 00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:27.810 Dallas Campbell: That cliff face is... 00:04:27.815 --> 00:04:28.615 Amy Peace: ...makes me nervous. 00:04:28.615 --> 00:04:31.667 Dallas Campbell: Do you mean when you say the cliff face, that sort of time 00:04:31.807 --> 00:04:34.577 period, Oh, we can take our time, we've got loads of time to do this, 00:04:34.757 --> 00:04:38.617 nice curve downwards has now turned into a cliff face because the... 00:04:38.752 --> 00:04:39.962 Amy Peace: Because we've used up our budget. 00:04:40.272 --> 00:04:43.322 There's a limited amount of carbon we could put in the atmosphere and every year 00:04:43.322 --> 00:04:46.922 we'll put it in more and more and it's not just about putting in less and less. 00:04:46.942 --> 00:04:49.142 It's like absolutely putting the brakes on. 00:04:49.307 --> 00:04:51.387 Russ Hall: It's with reference to the one and a half degree limit. 00:04:51.387 --> 00:04:54.760 That's the amount of carbon that we can put into the atmosphere in order 00:04:54.760 --> 00:04:59.650 to limit the climate's temperature increase to one and a half degrees 00:04:59.980 --> 00:05:02.482 on top of, the original benchmark. 00:05:03.322 --> 00:05:04.432 Is it a cliff face? 00:05:04.779 --> 00:05:07.756 It is if we're not careful, and if we don't act now. 00:05:07.876 --> 00:05:13.756 So we need to do things faster in order to make sure that we don't put so much 00:05:13.766 --> 00:05:17.483 carbon under that one and a half degree limit is breached, because once it is 00:05:17.483 --> 00:05:19.713 breached, there may be no coming back. 00:05:20.266 --> 00:05:25.410 So in reference to manufacturing, what manufacturing needs to do, it needs to 00:05:25.705 --> 00:05:29.675 reduce the amount of carbon emissions from manufacturing either in its supply 00:05:29.675 --> 00:05:33.755 chains or directly on site and it needs to do it as quickly as it possibly can. 00:05:34.165 --> 00:05:38.085 If we wait, then there is a danger that we go past that cliff face. 00:05:38.475 --> 00:05:42.465 We step off the edge and we fall into a climate change abyss 00:05:42.515 --> 00:05:43.695 and that would be bad, right? 00:05:43.735 --> 00:05:44.565 Be bad for everyone. 00:05:44.565 --> 00:05:45.015 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:05:45.015 --> 00:05:45.805 Russ Hall: So we need to act. 00:05:45.805 --> 00:05:48.943 We need to do it now and the technologies that we've been discussing as part of 00:05:48.963 --> 00:05:52.536 this podcast are some of the things that will help us to get there. 00:05:52.902 --> 00:05:56.262 When we talk about the carbon cliff face, we're really only talking about emissions 00:05:56.492 --> 00:06:01.712 and emissions reduction, net zero, is a small part of overall sustainability. 00:06:01.882 --> 00:06:05.646 So if we look at sustainability, it's really supported in basic terms by 00:06:05.666 --> 00:06:08.816 three pillars and they are, there's a social pillar, there's an economic 00:06:08.816 --> 00:06:12.646 pillar, and there's an environmental pillar and net zero falls into a piece 00:06:12.646 --> 00:06:16.599 of the environmental pillar and why is that important is a good question. 00:06:16.609 --> 00:06:24.339 So if you look at something like E-waste, if we start to recycle more tech, whether 00:06:24.339 --> 00:06:27.779 that could be electric motors, it could be laptops, could be mobile phones, 00:06:27.779 --> 00:06:32.129 could be generators from wind turbines, anything would fall into that category. 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:36.445 What do we do by moving those sorts of things forwards? 00:06:36.682 --> 00:06:40.422 We get a social benefit to it because to do all of those things 00:06:40.422 --> 00:06:43.262 will bring jobs and it will bring investments and it will bring growth. 00:06:43.922 --> 00:06:47.902 We get an environmental benefit, which is obvious because we're recycling. 00:06:47.902 --> 00:06:51.178 So what we're not doing is digging things out of the ground, that's one example 00:06:51.208 --> 00:06:54.888 and then obviously we get an economic benefit because if we are generating 00:06:54.888 --> 00:06:59.318 new businesses we're giving people new work, we are bringing new investment, 00:06:59.548 --> 00:07:01.058 then obviously we get an economic growth. 00:07:01.145 --> 00:07:04.876 So the way I always try to put this across is that sustainability is 00:07:04.966 --> 00:07:08.756 the lever to give us the economic investment we need in order to make 00:07:08.756 --> 00:07:10.626 society better in every possible way. 00:07:10.626 --> 00:07:10.876 Dallas Campbell: Right. 00:07:10.876 --> 00:07:16.346 Russ Hall: There is a really good example that is being created by Coventry City 00:07:16.346 --> 00:07:20.326 Council at the moment and that example is a tech recycling project and what 00:07:20.366 --> 00:07:24.551 that will look to do is to take laptops from people like the NHS, the big 00:07:24.561 --> 00:07:29.246 corporate businesses around the Coventry area and it will look to recycle those 00:07:29.246 --> 00:07:32.416 laptops, not in a physical recycling, so it's not going to crush them and 00:07:32.416 --> 00:07:34.156 then extract the material from them. 00:07:34.516 --> 00:07:37.602 It's going to take them in, clean them, make them secure, make sure 00:07:37.602 --> 00:07:38.812 there's absolutely no data in there. 00:07:38.812 --> 00:07:41.592 There's no loss of information, no one's going to lose, you know, the 00:07:41.592 --> 00:07:44.352 trust barriers aren't going to be broken, but then it's going to put them 00:07:44.352 --> 00:07:45.962 back out into the community for free. 00:07:46.126 --> 00:07:49.441 So there's obviously, there's an environmental solution being done there 00:07:49.591 --> 00:07:52.801 because we're not crushing those laptops up and putting them into landfill. 00:07:53.641 --> 00:07:56.841 But it really does answer a very big social need under 00:07:56.841 --> 00:07:58.261 the sustainability banner. 00:07:58.721 --> 00:08:01.615 Nine percent of Coventry doesn't have access to the internet, twenty seven 00:08:01.615 --> 00:08:04.945 percent of Coventry's only got access to the internet through mobile devices. 00:08:05.535 --> 00:08:09.345 So that's things like your mobile phone and you think about how limited that 00:08:09.375 --> 00:08:12.815 is, it's actually really hard to do your gas bill through your mobile phone. 00:08:12.815 --> 00:08:14.065 It's a lot easier if you've got a laptop. 00:08:14.185 --> 00:08:18.015 So if we can get that out, get those laptops out into society for free, we 00:08:18.015 --> 00:08:23.005 have got an environmental benefit that comes immediately from the reconditioning 00:08:23.005 --> 00:08:26.245 of those laptops and we've got a social need that's being sorted and 00:08:26.245 --> 00:08:30.485 at the same time, what we're doing is generating a new business for Coventry. 00:08:30.810 --> 00:08:33.750 There will be new jobs associated with that, albeit it's not going 00:08:33.750 --> 00:08:34.970 to employ thousands of people. 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:37.570 It may only employ four or five, but there are four or five 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:38.790 jobs that didn't exist before. 00:08:38.790 --> 00:08:39.007 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:08:39.023 --> 00:08:42.693 Russ Hall: So that's sustainability in practice, that's what it's about and 00:08:42.693 --> 00:08:46.323 in relation to the Carbon Accounting Programme, we can then measure the 00:08:46.323 --> 00:08:50.373 emissions improvement that come from recycling those laptops, as opposed 00:08:50.373 --> 00:08:54.027 to making new ones and what we'll see is there'll be an emissions 00:08:54.027 --> 00:08:56.557 reduction to an improvement for the environment that can be measured. 00:08:57.085 --> 00:09:00.525 Dallas Campbell: Okay, the term net zero, I actually think is not the 00:09:00.525 --> 00:09:03.222 best term because I actually think people get confused about the net bit. 00:09:03.345 --> 00:09:06.065 It is a kind of odd term really, what do we mean by net zero? 00:09:06.280 --> 00:09:08.850 Amy Peace: Yeah and in different contexts, it means different things, 00:09:08.850 --> 00:09:11.340 you know, in some bits of society, it's acceptable to go, well, we'll 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:15.150 just offset the emissions we can't deal with and we'll have all these strange 00:09:15.170 --> 00:09:20.240 accounting details where we'll kind of just make those emissions disappear. 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:24.765 But in others, it's actually, no we need to not just look at reducing what we're 00:09:24.765 --> 00:09:28.235 doing, but actually we've also got to develop the technologies that will reduce 00:09:29.155 --> 00:09:30.745 CO2 that's already in the atmosphere. 00:09:30.925 --> 00:09:33.545 So whether that's sort of direct air capture or some of 00:09:33.545 --> 00:09:35.165 the regenerative stuff, yeah. 00:09:35.175 --> 00:09:37.855 Dallas Campbell: Presumably on our getting to net zero involves 00:09:37.905 --> 00:09:39.495 removing carbon from the atmosphere. 00:09:39.685 --> 00:09:42.905 Even if you just turn the tap off, it's still not going to be enough. 00:09:42.905 --> 00:09:44.575 We actually need to get rid of it. 00:09:44.692 --> 00:09:45.482 Russ Hall: Yes, we will. 00:09:46.062 --> 00:09:48.858 On one end, we can reduce the emissions coming from processes, 00:09:48.858 --> 00:09:51.558 coming from the things that we do, whether that's domestically or 00:09:51.558 --> 00:09:54.798 industrially, we can reduce those emissions, but we'll never get to a 00:09:54.798 --> 00:09:56.088 point where those emissions are zero. 00:09:56.558 --> 00:09:58.838 So, we'll always be adding something to the atmosphere. 00:09:58.838 --> 00:10:03.208 So, for us to achieve net zero, we must be capturing carbon, 00:10:03.208 --> 00:10:06.608 either from the atmosphere or from industrial processes, in order to 00:10:06.608 --> 00:10:08.218 bring us to the net zero point. 00:10:08.558 --> 00:10:12.378 So, we can take away from above, but we must also capture whatever's left 00:10:12.378 --> 00:10:16.550 in order to get to that zero baseline mark and that is really important, that 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:20.710 it's not ignored and it's something that things like satellite technology 00:10:20.710 --> 00:10:24.620 will be able to measure, because we'll be able to see where carbon capture 00:10:24.620 --> 00:10:28.980 is working and where it's not, using the technology that's been developed 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:30.820 by places like the Sat Apps Catapult. 00:10:31.814 --> 00:10:34.979 And that stuff is actually really important because one of the things we 00:10:34.979 --> 00:10:39.069 have with manufacturers is that they are starting to realise that net zero for 00:10:39.069 --> 00:10:41.119 them, for their business is impossible. 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:43.229 So that means they disengage with it. 00:10:43.515 --> 00:10:47.215 So what we need them to do is to just work on getting their emissions to be as 00:10:47.215 --> 00:10:51.359 small as they can possibly get them and then let technology sort the rest out. 00:10:51.917 --> 00:10:52.994 And that's where we need to be. 00:10:53.004 --> 00:10:55.043 If we can do that, we can win this war. 00:10:55.883 --> 00:10:57.066 But it's a hearts and minds thing. 00:10:57.066 --> 00:10:59.986 So we have to keep people involved as we're going and that is actually hard. 00:11:00.426 --> 00:11:03.231 Dallas Campbell: I really want to talk about this idea of carbon accounting. 00:11:03.798 --> 00:11:07.685 People may have heard of carbon trading and all sorts of things that 00:11:07.685 --> 00:11:11.435 have happened, but carbon accounting from where you're sitting means what? 00:11:11.570 --> 00:11:15.940 Amy Peace: From my perspective, it is literally knowing how much carbon's 00:11:16.030 --> 00:11:21.810 gone into making stuff, because often we look at how do we decarbonise and a 00:11:21.810 --> 00:11:24.500 lot of people think, oh well I've got my solar panels, I've got this, and 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:27.790 they just think about that kind of I have reduced my electricity use, I've 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.760 gone from a internal combustion engine car to an EV or something, therefore, 00:11:31.760 --> 00:11:35.580 I'm kind of doing my bit and then they forget about all that, well, what 00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:37.730 are we using most of the energy for? 00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:40.610 And a lot of it is in making stuff. 00:11:41.586 --> 00:11:44.688 But until you actually know how much stuff Energy has gone into making that 00:11:44.698 --> 00:11:48.988 stuff, you don't really have a sense of, well, what benefit do we have 00:11:48.998 --> 00:11:51.468 from using product A or product B? 00:11:51.488 --> 00:11:55.328 This one's got less stuff in than that one or different types of stuff in this 00:11:55.328 --> 00:11:59.438 one and so it becomes this sort of very interesting sort of discussion, how 00:11:59.678 --> 00:12:02.988 initially when you engage in people on carbon, you start getting this discussion 00:12:03.128 --> 00:12:04.503 about the different scopes there are. 00:12:05.113 --> 00:12:09.133 Scope one is literally just what carbon emissions are coming from your site. 00:12:09.766 --> 00:12:12.996 If you've got a gas boiler, you can see exactly how much carbon 00:12:12.996 --> 00:12:14.606 will be sort of coming back. 00:12:14.606 --> 00:12:16.987 Dallas Campbell: And are we talking about companies would do carbon accounting. 00:12:17.007 --> 00:12:17.897 Is that the idea? 00:12:18.077 --> 00:12:18.357 Right. 00:12:18.382 --> 00:12:18.832 Amy Peace: Yeah, it is. 00:12:18.902 --> 00:12:22.472 I mean, you can do carbon accounting for your household if you wanted to, or sort 00:12:22.472 --> 00:12:25.947 of a much broader organisation, but in general, in this context, I think we're 00:12:25.947 --> 00:12:29.379 talking about companies, but then you kind of get onto the scope two, which is kind 00:12:29.379 --> 00:12:30.849 of, well, you're buying in electricity. 00:12:30.869 --> 00:12:33.219 So what's being used to generate that electricity? 00:12:33.249 --> 00:12:36.629 Is it coming from renewable sources or is it coming from still 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:38.719 gas or even coal in some places? 00:12:39.149 --> 00:12:42.119 So that then adds an extra sort of burden on, of carbon, 00:12:42.119 --> 00:12:43.579 which you're responsible for. 00:12:44.239 --> 00:12:47.719 But then we get into the complicated bit of what we call scope three emissions. 00:12:47.729 --> 00:12:51.709 So these are all the stuff, whether it be actual physical resources 00:12:51.709 --> 00:12:54.919 or services that are also needed to make your business work. 00:12:55.949 --> 00:12:59.892 How much energy, and thus carbon, are they requiring? 00:13:00.302 --> 00:13:03.502 So all your kind of raw materials have taken energy to produce. 00:13:03.502 --> 00:13:06.782 You don't just get them coming in the door and like magic, we're 00:13:06.782 --> 00:13:07.822 going to do something with them. 00:13:08.302 --> 00:13:10.242 They have taken a lot of effort to get there. 00:13:10.262 --> 00:13:13.742 So in the circularity space, you know, some of the examples we talk about, if 00:13:13.742 --> 00:13:16.842 you're going to have to dig this resource out of the ground, use some really big, 00:13:16.842 --> 00:13:22.322 heavy mining machinery, you might expect that to have a higher carbon footprint 00:13:22.722 --> 00:13:26.762 than if you were to get some recycled material or not to have to start from 00:13:26.762 --> 00:13:30.222 scratch because you're not having to repeat all that sort of front end stuff. 00:13:30.592 --> 00:13:33.722 So to be able to sort of knowing what's the journey that that material has 00:13:33.722 --> 00:13:38.917 taken, we can then account for it and say, simplistically, therefore this 00:13:38.927 --> 00:13:41.237 product has taken this amount of carbon. 00:13:41.507 --> 00:13:45.147 So you can either do it on a product basis, so do it sort of per thing 00:13:45.147 --> 00:13:47.807 that comes out of your factory, or you can do it as an organisation 00:13:47.827 --> 00:13:51.537 basis and say, our organisation has a totality has that sort of footprint. 00:13:51.837 --> 00:13:55.027 Dallas Campbell: And so basically, so all these numbers get totted up over all 00:13:55.027 --> 00:13:58.497 these different areas and it spits out a number and do you get like a score? 00:13:58.497 --> 00:14:02.131 Is that, I mean, if I'm a big company, am I producing with my carbon accounting? 00:14:02.131 --> 00:14:04.725 Amy Peace: Yeah, this is where it gets more complicated because 00:14:04.945 --> 00:14:07.515 carbon accounting means different things to different people. 00:14:08.185 --> 00:14:11.475 So if you're kind of a government, maybe looking top down, you will 00:14:11.475 --> 00:14:14.755 might want to know where's all the carbon coming from in our economy. 00:14:15.175 --> 00:14:19.095 So where are hotspots that have the industries to target or the particular 00:14:19.095 --> 00:14:22.535 things to kind of know that makes up our whole sort of territorial emissions so 00:14:22.535 --> 00:14:27.810 that if we're making those big global obligations to various climate treaties, 00:14:28.050 --> 00:14:31.280 we've got a good sense of are we pulling the levers in the right place to know that 00:14:31.280 --> 00:14:32.659 we're going to reduce carbon emissions. 00:14:32.957 --> 00:14:36.777 But then if you're kind of one of these big multinational companies that 00:14:36.777 --> 00:14:40.147 wants to make environmental claims about its products, you want to think 00:14:40.187 --> 00:14:41.917 on a very different perspective. 00:14:42.357 --> 00:14:45.807 You actually do kind of almost like a bottom up calculation of exactly what's 00:14:45.807 --> 00:14:49.697 gone into this particular product and the decisions you've made along the way 00:14:50.167 --> 00:14:54.737 and you do those calculations in two different ways, which means again, you 00:14:54.737 --> 00:14:57.627 could end up with different numbers for your carbon accounting, because it's 00:14:57.627 --> 00:15:01.777 always this kind of proxy of how do you allocate the carbon emissions to 00:15:01.777 --> 00:15:03.217 the thing that you're talking about? 00:15:03.227 --> 00:15:07.059 So we would love it to be one simple number that meant the same to everybody, 00:15:07.190 --> 00:15:08.575 but it's not quite that simple. 00:15:08.927 --> 00:15:10.137 Dallas Campbell: And do these companies, are they doing it 00:15:10.177 --> 00:15:11.697 for some altruistic reasons? 00:15:12.258 --> 00:15:14.888 Russ Hall: So the companies will do it for all sorts of different reasons. 00:15:14.888 --> 00:15:16.048 It could be altruistic. 00:15:16.078 --> 00:15:19.508 So if you're a small business, there's no real legislation that means you have to 00:15:19.508 --> 00:15:20.798 do your carbon accounting at the moment. 00:15:20.818 --> 00:15:24.128 So they do it because, hey, it's the right thing to do and if I'm measuring it, it's 00:15:24.128 --> 00:15:27.248 something I can show off about perhaps, or it's something I can then show year on 00:15:27.248 --> 00:15:28.658 year, I'm actually reducing my emissions. 00:15:29.008 --> 00:15:30.488 Big companies have to do it, it's law. 00:15:30.900 --> 00:15:34.560 So there are things they have to report to where they, you know, they've got to show 00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:38.210 what their emissions are and they've gotta calculate them and for the big companies 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:40.320 it is a really difficult problem. 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:44.040 Like everything, Amy's description of it then was absolutely brilliant. 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:48.060 What I'm gonna add to is just to show how complex it is, so let's say you 00:15:48.060 --> 00:15:50.940 were in the UK and you were to make an airframe for something really big. 00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:56.360 Well, something like a Boeing 787, 2.3 million components sourced from 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.040 13 different regions of the world. 00:15:58.565 --> 00:16:00.805 Every bit of that world has got a different energy grid, a 00:16:00.805 --> 00:16:02.235 different way of making something. 00:16:02.705 --> 00:16:07.035 So you've got an incredibly complicated supply chain, and yet you have to account 00:16:07.045 --> 00:16:11.785 for, to a reasonable degree of accuracy, what the carbon is in that product when 00:16:11.795 --> 00:16:14.795 it leaves and it is very difficult. 00:16:15.065 --> 00:16:18.101 Dallas Campbell: It's almost as if you need some kind of standardisation 00:16:18.122 --> 00:16:19.812 to make it all come together. 00:16:20.222 --> 00:16:23.982 Let's talk about the carbon accounting projects and what that is and how 00:16:23.992 --> 00:16:27.522 that's aiming to try and, from what I understand, it's trying to simplify 00:16:27.532 --> 00:16:31.652 things, make things a bit easier, a bit more standarsised, I suppose. 00:16:31.722 --> 00:16:34.882 Russ Hall: Yeah, so the Carbon Accounting Programme has aimed to 00:16:35.212 --> 00:16:40.012 produce a standardised framework for UK manufacturers to use to do their carbon 00:16:40.012 --> 00:16:44.355 accounting by taking into account thing like, what sort of user type they are. 00:16:44.355 --> 00:16:48.105 So whether they are a big company, a small company, a high emitter, small emitter, 00:16:48.525 --> 00:16:52.645 what sorts of legislation they already had to report to and then it's sort of based 00:16:52.645 --> 00:16:55.200 on stuff that's already out there, things like the audience would have heard, I 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:59.460 think, about the Greenhouse Gas Protocol and tries to take into account all of the 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:00.850 legislation that's currently out there. 00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:04.850 It just, it tries to come out with a standardised way of producing a number 00:17:04.850 --> 00:17:06.630 you can then use for your reporting. 00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:09.195 Dallas Campbell: Can I just say this is the High Value Manufacturing Catapult. 00:17:09.235 --> 00:17:10.285 This is your catapult. 00:17:10.800 --> 00:17:13.480 Russ Hall: This is the High Value Manufacturing Casper in association 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:18.085 with Satellite Applications Catapult, Energy Systems Catapult, Connected Places 00:17:18.085 --> 00:17:20.305 Catapult, and the Digital Catapult. 00:17:20.555 --> 00:17:22.905 So it's, we are, it's a true cross catapult project. 00:17:23.852 --> 00:17:25.802 Dallas Campbell: I suppose what I want to know is how's it going? 00:17:26.235 --> 00:17:27.125 are you succeeding? 00:17:27.438 --> 00:17:29.768 are you having kind of eureka moments where everything's going to 00:17:29.768 --> 00:17:32.248 be much easier and less complex and 00:17:32.373 --> 00:17:33.943 Russ Hall: Some days yes and some days, no. 00:17:33.943 --> 00:17:37.793 I think if I were to criticise myself, I would say that in my head, I oversimplify 00:17:37.793 --> 00:17:42.853 it and then I'm brought back to reality by the people who I work with, who are 00:17:42.923 --> 00:17:46.183 true technical experts in the space who point out to me that my wonderfully 00:17:46.183 --> 00:17:47.583 simplified ideas can't be happened. 00:17:47.823 --> 00:17:48.643 How is it going? 00:17:48.923 --> 00:17:52.743 I would say, I think personally pretty well, but I mean, Amy is 00:17:52.773 --> 00:17:56.523 from the sponsoring area, so she read better to comment, I don't... 00:17:56.608 --> 00:17:57.578 Dallas Campbell: How do companies like it? 00:17:57.628 --> 00:17:59.988 You know, you've got this project that's just meant to make things 00:17:59.988 --> 00:18:03.348 easier, companies like things when they're easy and less, less faff. 00:18:03.553 --> 00:18:05.863 Russ Hall: From the interactions with the companies that we've had and 00:18:05.863 --> 00:18:09.733 with people in our advisory board, they love the idea of it for sure. 00:18:10.233 --> 00:18:14.863 Are we going to, at the end of the project, be able to present the one 00:18:14.903 --> 00:18:16.493 answer that solves the whole problem? 00:18:16.663 --> 00:18:18.787 I don't believe that, but we will have gone a long way to showing to 00:18:18.787 --> 00:18:20.287 just where we could get to, I think. 00:18:20.872 --> 00:18:23.452 Dallas Campbell: Let's talk a little bit, cause this is a space podcast, let's talk 00:18:23.452 --> 00:18:29.950 a little bit about how satellite data and what we do in orbit can help companies 00:18:29.980 --> 00:18:31.980 with this and, your project in particular. 00:18:32.345 --> 00:18:35.095 Amy Peace: I think this has been quite an interesting one of just, I mean, 00:18:35.095 --> 00:18:38.645 with the whole project, it's been saying, where are the barriers in this? 00:18:38.675 --> 00:18:40.355 What's stopping it being simple? 00:18:40.635 --> 00:18:44.545 So for some kind of small businesses, some of the barriers might be we 00:18:44.545 --> 00:18:46.985 just, we don't even know about the topic, we don't really understand 00:18:46.985 --> 00:18:48.365 what this is, where do we start? 00:18:48.455 --> 00:18:51.055 And what's a kind of really simplistic way to get started? 00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:55.210 For some of the bigger companies, or even for some of the sort of 00:18:55.260 --> 00:18:57.980 government level, so like they've got quite different questions, like how 00:18:57.980 --> 00:18:59.460 do we trust the data that we've got? 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:03.080 We've already got systems there, but we might not really have that 00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:05.040 assurance that we've covered everything. 00:19:05.275 --> 00:19:08.251 So this is where kind of Sat Apps comes in and it's sort of an interesting 00:19:08.251 --> 00:19:11.701 space because a lot of things sort of the new technologies on sort of 00:19:11.701 --> 00:19:16.811 visualisation and sort of looking for literal hot spots on the earth, can 00:19:16.821 --> 00:19:20.191 provide really interesting information about what's happening on the ground. 00:19:20.441 --> 00:19:24.001 So every now and again we get interesting news stories about we've detected 00:19:24.081 --> 00:19:28.611 massive methane plumes coming out of some gas pipeline somewhere and you 00:19:28.621 --> 00:19:30.981 know, they're the ones that kind of hit the news on, perhaps we should 00:19:31.061 --> 00:19:34.471 take note of that, you know, the oil and gas industry might have a slightly 00:19:34.471 --> 00:19:36.411 bigger footprint than we suspect. 00:19:37.131 --> 00:19:41.913 But also there's the, stuff from just general industry, you might have a sort 00:19:41.913 --> 00:19:46.140 of big, steel industry in one country and it might give you some data about 00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:47.900 how much they're operating and things. 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:51.860 But actually, can you be sure that's actually true data? 00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:55.403 is the plant really off for sort of six months in the year or something? 00:19:55.403 --> 00:20:00.193 So, this is that interesting sort of balance of when are things operating? 00:20:00.213 --> 00:20:03.233 When is things particularly hot, particularly cold? 00:20:03.623 --> 00:20:05.353 All the things which you can see from space. 00:20:05.353 --> 00:20:05.633 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:20:05.633 --> 00:20:08.363 I mean, is the idea, you know, obviously getting satellite data 00:20:08.363 --> 00:20:11.983 in real time, so you could real time, monitor your steel plant. 00:20:12.470 --> 00:20:14.931 Russ Hall: I mean, in principle, that s probably possible. 00:20:15.155 --> 00:20:18.035 It's a great way of verifying exactly what Amy's just said. 00:20:18.035 --> 00:20:24.845 So if somebody is buying 30, 000 tons of steel from a steel plant in Korea, and 00:20:24.955 --> 00:20:28.791 that plant in Korea makes a declaration to say, there's this much embodied carbon. 00:20:28.801 --> 00:20:32.051 Well, if you've monitored its emissions through a year, you will 00:20:32.051 --> 00:20:34.221 know what its emissions are and you could proportionate to it. 00:20:34.431 --> 00:20:35.241 Is it that simple? 00:20:35.701 --> 00:20:35.991 No. 00:20:36.421 --> 00:20:38.681 But in theory, you can do it. 00:20:38.755 --> 00:20:43.285 You have to understand the layout of, in the case of a steel plant, you'd 00:20:43.285 --> 00:20:45.955 have to understand the layout of the steel plant to understand what emissions 00:20:45.955 --> 00:20:47.456 were associated with which bits of it. 00:20:47.906 --> 00:20:51.606 But the principle of being able to look at those emissions from space to 00:20:51.606 --> 00:20:54.506 see where the energy is being used, where the emissions have come from, 00:20:54.506 --> 00:20:58.566 and then proportioning it out should be possible and it is a neat way of seeing 00:20:58.566 --> 00:20:59.576 whether people are telling the truth. 00:20:59.926 --> 00:21:01.576 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, well, presumably it's not just neat. 00:21:01.626 --> 00:21:06.126 Presumably it's absolutely vital because if you can't quantify emissions, if 00:21:06.126 --> 00:21:08.906 you can't actually quantify all this and actually understand it, then 00:21:08.906 --> 00:21:10.306 you're never going to get to net zero. 00:21:10.536 --> 00:21:13.396 Presumably the more information we have is the key to this. 00:21:13.851 --> 00:21:16.031 Amy Peace: Yeah, and it's that difference between, again, that top 00:21:16.031 --> 00:21:19.431 down understanding of where are all the emissions coming from, have we actually 00:21:19.431 --> 00:21:24.441 accounted for everything and the bottom up proactive declarers of information, kind 00:21:24.441 --> 00:21:26.051 of, that's coming from that product level. 00:21:26.431 --> 00:21:28.961 I mean, another example on the Sat Apps one is obviously for, like, land 00:21:28.971 --> 00:21:32.636 use change, where we've seen, sort of things, quite high publicity kind of 00:21:32.636 --> 00:21:37.166 on deforestation and you get some great sort of time sort of stamp series maps 00:21:37.166 --> 00:21:41.076 of looking at what's happened like the Amazon over the years and where again 00:21:41.076 --> 00:21:45.256 companies may have declared certain sort of operations but actually then looking 00:21:45.256 --> 00:21:47.626 at the realistic, well this is actually... 00:21:47.741 --> 00:21:50.421 Dallas Campbell: That's, so if you make a claim, you have to back it up. 00:21:50.481 --> 00:21:51.161 You have to... 00:21:51.296 --> 00:21:54.336 Amy Peace: Yeah and I think this brings in sort of an interesting side on kind 00:21:54.336 --> 00:21:57.556 of that regulated point of view, because there are those sort of challenges, I 00:21:57.556 --> 00:22:01.166 think to this on, you know, how much would you expect individual companies 00:22:01.206 --> 00:22:05.206 to chase the supply chain and actually say, you told us this, and it's actually 00:22:05.206 --> 00:22:08.746 not that, versus should it be done by someone who's more independent? 00:22:09.001 --> 00:22:13.671 When you are actually doing that, looking at somebody else's 00:22:13.671 --> 00:22:18.351 operations, it does bring in some slight uncertainty on kind of how 00:22:18.361 --> 00:22:20.171 much could an individual company do. 00:22:20.411 --> 00:22:23.571 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, that's interesting, and is the idea once you've got all 00:22:23.571 --> 00:22:27.131 this data, once you've got all the satellite data, presumably then needs 00:22:27.131 --> 00:22:30.831 to be agreed upon, there needs to be kind of regulatory frameworks to 00:22:30.831 --> 00:22:34.731 make sure that it's used properly and understood properly and all that data 00:22:34.813 --> 00:22:36.723 really doing the job it's meant to do. 00:22:37.253 --> 00:22:40.073 Russ Hall: Yeah and that goes for the rest of carbon accounting as well. 00:22:40.073 --> 00:22:42.953 You need to make sure that it's used responsibly, that the 00:22:42.953 --> 00:22:44.633 information's used in the right way. 00:22:45.043 --> 00:22:48.943 One of the difficulties with, well not difficulties, but there is a data risk 00:22:48.943 --> 00:22:53.373 with anything to do with carbon accounting that if somebody has got the emissions 00:22:53.373 --> 00:22:56.973 that are embedded with a product and they've got the list of materials that 00:22:56.973 --> 00:23:01.483 go in the product and a data sheet, then a clever person could work backwards 00:23:01.483 --> 00:23:02.843 as to how that product was made. 00:23:03.253 --> 00:23:05.975 So, it's kind of, because it's embedded in everything and it unlocks 00:23:06.505 --> 00:23:09.115 everything, but it does present some challenges along the way. 00:23:09.205 --> 00:23:11.772 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm interested in, you know, 00:23:11.782 --> 00:23:15.022 if you're a company and as we've established, it's very difficult and 00:23:15.022 --> 00:23:18.152 your job is to try and streamline everything, make it much, much easier. 00:23:18.332 --> 00:23:21.552 Is there a kind of rubber, like a kind of seal of approval that one would get 00:23:21.552 --> 00:23:23.182 a kind of Catapult seal of approval? 00:23:23.352 --> 00:23:26.765 Yes, this has been done right, that companies aim towards that would 00:23:26.765 --> 00:23:32.305 be standardised, so everyone has the same, you know, the same stamp. 00:23:32.755 --> 00:23:34.335 Russ Hall: No, it's not for us to do that. 00:23:34.525 --> 00:23:38.545 Our job is to provide the framework, the stamp of approval, I guess 00:23:38.565 --> 00:23:41.035 we could say, well, yes, you've used our framework, that's nice. 00:23:41.515 --> 00:23:44.845 But I don't think it's for us to give a stamp of approval of what that is. 00:23:44.845 --> 00:23:47.915 Our job is to look at the research, look at the data, find the streamlined way of 00:23:47.915 --> 00:23:51.679 doing it and show the most efficient way for a business to get to do their carbon 00:23:51.679 --> 00:23:55.905 accounting and to provide a way where we are comparing apples with apples. 00:23:55.915 --> 00:23:59.265 So at the moment people can do their carbon accounting in different ways. 00:23:59.745 --> 00:24:03.094 So if I'm comparing automotive company a, with automotive company 00:24:03.094 --> 00:24:07.012 B, do I know that I can compare the embodied emissions figures for 00:24:07.012 --> 00:24:09.121 on a per vehicle to vehicle basis? 00:24:09.121 --> 00:24:12.738 No, I don't know that at the moment and I've got firsthand 00:24:12.738 --> 00:24:15.751 evidence of that from automotive manufacturers admitting it to me. 00:24:16.111 --> 00:24:17.821 This is trying to solve that problem. 00:24:18.005 --> 00:24:21.455 She's trying to find a way that we know that we can compare this Apple 00:24:21.455 --> 00:24:22.795 with this Apple quite literally. 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:25.393 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, let's talk about the carbon regulator. 00:24:25.893 --> 00:24:28.710 Russ, do you want to tell us a little bit about the carbon regulator? 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.973 What it is and who created it and why it exists? 00:24:33.013 --> 00:24:34.968 Russ Hall: It doesn't exist, that's the thing. 00:24:34.998 --> 00:24:38.858 So it doesn't exist now and the people, the catapult that's done the bulk of the 00:24:38.858 --> 00:24:42.648 work to look at what a carbon regulator is, it's the Energy Systems Catapult and 00:24:42.648 --> 00:24:46.948 they've done some great work to point out the need for, what has been termed 00:24:46.948 --> 00:24:50.458 a carbon regulator, which would be an independent body sat within UK government 00:24:50.468 --> 00:24:55.218 ideally, that was responsible for the monitoring, reporting and verification 00:24:55.538 --> 00:24:57.408 of businesses carbon accounting. 00:24:57.738 --> 00:25:01.870 So they would be sort of the arbiters of what people have reported to say 00:25:01.870 --> 00:25:05.350 whether it's accurate or not and also the provider of the basis data. 00:25:05.896 --> 00:25:10.976 So a carbon regulator would be, I guess, much like a financial regulator 00:25:11.016 --> 00:25:14.226 in that it provides a structure and framework for other people to follow 00:25:14.576 --> 00:25:17.276 and then an audit, it is an audit trail. 00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:21.250 Is there a rubber stamp at the end for everybody, every year? 00:25:21.713 --> 00:25:25.543 No, cause it's, it would be quite akin to doing your financial accounting. 00:25:25.783 --> 00:25:29.213 So you do it in the right way, so it is then approved, it's done through 00:25:29.213 --> 00:25:32.066 an approved process and there would, I don't know, we would have to look 00:25:32.076 --> 00:25:35.116 at what the future would hold, but you would then probably have things like 00:25:35.116 --> 00:25:38.076 spot checks to make sure people have done it right, of different sectors 00:25:38.076 --> 00:25:40.636 at different times, it's probably the route you would go down in the future. 00:25:41.196 --> 00:25:43.946 That we haven't got to, what we've done is we've outlined what the 00:25:43.946 --> 00:25:47.326 carbon regulator would do and how it could come into existence versus 00:25:47.396 --> 00:25:49.076 other regulators that already exist. 00:25:49.176 --> 00:25:51.366 Dallas Campbell: And so where are you with this at the moment? 00:25:51.366 --> 00:25:53.593 What kind of timeframe are we in? 00:25:53.893 --> 00:25:55.073 How's it coming along? 00:25:55.073 --> 00:25:56.093 Is it ready to rock? 00:25:56.215 --> 00:25:58.495 Russ Hall: So the proposal is there, the reports are written. 00:25:58.495 --> 00:26:02.798 they are there to be adopted and we are talking with both Defra and the 00:26:02.798 --> 00:26:07.208 department for Energy Security Net Zero about how they could be adopted. 00:26:07.538 --> 00:26:10.208 But ultimately, the decision isn't ours, the decision is theirs. 00:26:10.228 --> 00:26:10.578 Dallas Campbell: Right. 00:26:10.708 --> 00:26:12.028 Amy, are you involved in this as well? 00:26:12.028 --> 00:26:12.858 Do you get, are you... 00:26:12.888 --> 00:26:16.473 Amy Peace: Well, just the oversight thing, but I think the interesting case here is 00:26:16.703 --> 00:26:22.043 just how it would work when you kind of consider the UK is not in isolation in 00:26:22.263 --> 00:26:26.773 space and prior to joining Innovate, I was working on a lot of EU programs and sort 00:26:26.773 --> 00:26:31.563 of knowing what's going on there of the biggest sort of international, Markets on 00:26:31.563 --> 00:26:33.733 things like, carbon border tax adjustment. 00:26:34.093 --> 00:26:37.163 So as it's, you know, working out if something were to enter the country, 00:26:37.163 --> 00:26:40.143 you're not being undermined if you're going to extra efforts to do low 00:26:40.143 --> 00:26:43.813 carbon manufacturing here and then somebody just uses coal power and make 00:26:43.813 --> 00:26:45.373 something really cheaply elsewhere. 00:26:45.423 --> 00:26:48.173 You, kind of, essentially importing carbon into your country. 00:26:48.183 --> 00:26:53.233 So how would you use a regulator as part of that, has to be something 00:26:53.243 --> 00:26:56.573 that works internationally and not just be for the UK. 00:26:56.663 --> 00:27:00.353 So it's been quite interesting just sort of checking that sort of engagement's 00:27:00.403 --> 00:27:04.263 happening and it's been good to see kind of, there's a whole extra report on how 00:27:04.493 --> 00:27:06.193 into that sort of international space. 00:27:06.570 --> 00:27:08.530 Russ Hall: If we were to put a carbon regulator in place, the 00:27:08.530 --> 00:27:10.090 UK would be the first to do it. 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:12.100 Dallas Campbell: Has no, there's no other countries. 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.140 I'm amazed that no other countries kind of have it or have done. 00:27:15.340 --> 00:27:17.540 There must, be other countries who are doing similar things. 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.755 Russ Hall: We can't be alone in thinking about this, that's for sure. 00:27:20.755 --> 00:27:23.775 The EU has done an awful lot of work towards streamlining emissions, 00:27:23.775 --> 00:27:27.765 reporting this as the US, but the idea of an independent body looking at 00:27:27.765 --> 00:27:31.555 this, as far as we can tell from, as far as the guys at energy systems can 00:27:31.555 --> 00:27:33.599 tell, It just hasn't been done yet. 00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:35.069 It doesn't mean it's not going to be. 00:27:35.274 --> 00:27:37.314 Amy Peace: There is emissions trading schemes. 00:27:37.334 --> 00:27:40.594 So those are the ones where there is a lot of sort of regulation on that. 00:27:40.604 --> 00:27:44.414 So I think it's the Environment Agency deals with that within the UK and then 00:27:44.414 --> 00:27:46.494 there's sort of EU platforms for that. 00:27:46.494 --> 00:27:50.874 So that's where big industry does have to report its carbon emissions and 00:27:50.934 --> 00:27:56.049 that is a level of sort of verifying that on an annual basis, just to check 00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.729 that what they're emitting actually matches up to the truth, because that's 00:27:59.729 --> 00:28:04.489 where you can say, well, if I decide to sort of turn off a plant or turn down 00:28:04.489 --> 00:28:08.609 operations, I can actually trade that sort of carbon benefit with someone else. 00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:12.649 So that's kind of where it is happening, but that's that where we go back to 00:28:12.649 --> 00:28:16.149 those kind of scope one emissions, that stuff that's happening on your 00:28:16.149 --> 00:28:18.739 sites, that element has got that. 00:28:19.259 --> 00:28:21.949 What we're talking about is more that scope three, the supply 00:28:21.969 --> 00:28:23.629 chain, the stuff that's coming in. 00:28:23.884 --> 00:28:26.754 Dallas Campbell: And presumably there is a big role for space data as well 00:28:26.774 --> 00:28:28.786 in the carbon regulator as a thing. 00:28:29.446 --> 00:28:33.302 Amy Peace: Well, potentially, and again, I don't necessarily see this as being kind 00:28:33.302 --> 00:28:38.152 of every company would need to engage with satellite data and every sort of little 00:28:38.152 --> 00:28:41.055 bit of data you're coming through and go, well, let's check that with Sat Apps. 00:28:41.735 --> 00:28:44.745 I think it's interesting to see what granularity you 00:28:44.745 --> 00:28:46.625 can actually get on a site. 00:28:46.625 --> 00:28:50.525 So is it just basically saying roughly, Oh, well, they said that plant was 00:28:50.525 --> 00:28:54.625 operating and it wasn't, and you know, those sorts of sort of binary answers, 00:28:55.065 --> 00:28:58.345 or like, oh, we thought that pipeline was switched off and, but there's a 00:28:58.445 --> 00:29:02.955 big methane plume there and in that sort of situation, it might be more 00:29:02.955 --> 00:29:07.085 for just doing those sort of high level assessments of, have we missed 00:29:07.085 --> 00:29:11.605 something, or is there a big hotspot we're not aware of, or is this particular 00:29:11.615 --> 00:29:14.865 actor, you know, doing what they said they're going to do because enough 00:29:14.865 --> 00:29:16.375 people have raised concern about them. 00:29:16.979 --> 00:29:19.982 Russ Hall: What it is, I think at a high level, it gives you a way of looking at 00:29:20.712 --> 00:29:24.072 for the bulk material flows around the world where people are making claims 00:29:24.072 --> 00:29:27.932 that their emissions at a regional or national level are being decreased here 00:29:27.932 --> 00:29:29.682 as a way of potentially checking that. 00:29:30.122 --> 00:29:33.752 I'm not saying that is politically easy, it politically could lead to, 00:29:33.762 --> 00:29:37.652 of course, a lot of difficulty, I imagine, but here is a way of doing it. 00:29:37.792 --> 00:29:38.212 Dallas Campbell: Yeah. 00:29:38.542 --> 00:29:39.872 Give us just a sort of round off. 00:29:39.872 --> 00:29:42.932 I'm interested in, well, you know, in the work that you're doing 00:29:42.982 --> 00:29:48.202 and how important space as an industry now is for what you do. 00:29:48.342 --> 00:29:52.052 Like, could you do what you do without satellite data anymore? 00:29:52.772 --> 00:29:56.539 I'm just trying to get a sense of kind of how important it is in all of this. 00:29:56.979 --> 00:30:00.214 Amy Peace: It's difficult to say really because, you know, the day to day 00:30:00.464 --> 00:30:05.574 individual companies can essentially do carbon accounting for their factory 00:30:05.574 --> 00:30:09.524 boundaries without having to worry about having a satellite looking at their 00:30:09.524 --> 00:30:11.484 plant and verifying what they're doing. 00:30:12.169 --> 00:30:15.829 But it's that challenge of getting to net zero where this becomes interesting, 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.439 because if you're just asking each individual company what they do and 00:30:19.449 --> 00:30:24.189 what they're aware of and what they can see, you'll get a piece of the picture. 00:30:24.349 --> 00:30:26.809 But it's that way of saying, when you look top down, you're always going 00:30:26.809 --> 00:30:31.551 to miss some bits of stuff that's not reported or incorrectly reported 00:30:32.081 --> 00:30:37.421 and because net zero is that absolute kind of, we've got to get to zero and 00:30:37.471 --> 00:30:39.681 beyond to take other emissions away. 00:30:39.931 --> 00:30:45.550 We can't just say that 20, 30, 40, however many percent of the emissions, we're just 00:30:45.550 --> 00:30:48.600 going to assume someone has taken care of and we're not going to worry about. 00:30:48.730 --> 00:30:52.290 We need to look well everywhere and check. 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.120 So yeah, it's interesting how we miss some really big things. 00:30:56.785 --> 00:30:59.175 Russ Hall: The verification part, I completely agree. 00:30:59.175 --> 00:31:01.645 I think in the future it's going to become more and more important. 00:31:01.645 --> 00:31:05.205 We're going to have to look and see what's really happening as opposed 00:31:05.205 --> 00:31:06.455 to trusting what's being said. 00:31:06.945 --> 00:31:10.138 Dallas Campbell: Yeah, that seems to be the message I, as people who work in 00:31:10.138 --> 00:31:14.018 the sector, I sensed at the beginning when we started, you're optimistic. 00:31:14.258 --> 00:31:15.048 Is that fair? 00:31:15.071 --> 00:31:16.111 Amy's pulling a face. 00:31:16.411 --> 00:31:16.871 Amy Peace: Yeah. 00:31:17.811 --> 00:31:19.321 Dallas Campbell: Is there more that we could be doing? 00:31:19.321 --> 00:31:19.631 Is there more... 00:31:19.631 --> 00:31:21.226 Amy Peace: I really want to be optimistic. 00:31:21.306 --> 00:31:25.266 I mean, it's one of those ones where, you know, when you look at the kind of 00:31:25.276 --> 00:31:29.226 the rates of some uptakes of technologies and ideas, you know, and you see those 00:31:29.246 --> 00:31:33.046 curves for like, say, solar panel technology and every year they get the 00:31:33.046 --> 00:31:37.506 estimates wrong of how much more solar we could possibly do and it just keeps 00:31:37.506 --> 00:31:40.356 going up at that ridiculous exponential curve and everyone keeps saying 00:31:40.366 --> 00:31:41.496 it's going to flatten off this year. 00:31:41.556 --> 00:31:42.916 No, maybe this year it'll flatten off. 00:31:43.296 --> 00:31:44.546 Dallas Campbell: It never seems to flatten off. 00:31:44.546 --> 00:31:47.076 It may get less steep, but we're still going in the wrong direction. 00:31:47.206 --> 00:31:47.936 Amy Peace: Yeah, yeah. 00:31:48.016 --> 00:31:53.096 So, I think there are some technologies and some ideas that just get such momentum 00:31:53.726 --> 00:31:58.346 that it just becomes the normal thing to do and it actually just, and once it 00:31:58.346 --> 00:32:03.336 kind of makes financial sense to do it, either because you have to, to operate. 00:32:03.336 --> 00:32:05.596 Dallas Campbell: We have to make it work with the way humans work, 00:32:05.956 --> 00:32:08.806 otherwise it won't work and humans work by, with money and stuff. 00:32:08.821 --> 00:32:11.431 Russ Hall: And when you, if you come back to, you know, what I said 00:32:11.471 --> 00:32:17.078 earlier about meeting people where they are, if we go to a, as, HVMC or 00:32:17.078 --> 00:32:21.523 WMG, if we go to a business and say, we can help make you more sustainable. 00:32:21.533 --> 00:32:23.963 Typically that won't open the door, but if we go to a business and 00:32:23.973 --> 00:32:27.596 say, we can help you save money, that usually will open the door. 00:32:27.606 --> 00:32:30.796 Now, what is nice is that typically the two go hand in hand. 00:32:31.296 --> 00:32:34.966 So if we're saving a business money, we're speeding up its productivity. 00:32:35.166 --> 00:32:36.236 We're saving energy. 00:32:36.463 --> 00:32:37.883 then we're reducing its emissions. 00:32:38.213 --> 00:32:41.643 So the two things are the same, the message is there and that's what I mean 00:32:41.653 --> 00:32:46.133 about sustainability being a lever for UK manufacturing to make it more than it is. 00:32:46.413 --> 00:32:49.363 That's the thing that unlocks it, regardless of what the industry is. 00:32:49.743 --> 00:32:52.643 Sustainability is actually the key to making a better manufacturing 00:32:52.643 --> 00:32:55.723 sector in every sense, it has to be. 00:32:56.178 --> 00:32:59.538 Dallas Campbell: I'm quite optimistic because you two are involved and 00:32:59.538 --> 00:33:00.538 I think you're both brilliant. 00:33:00.538 --> 00:33:05.605 I think, I think both of you speak so, so, so eloquently you're so 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.620 clued into actually what's going on. 00:33:07.620 --> 00:33:08.220 I think it's good. 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.745 Russ Hall: You can't work in sustainability every day, like Amy 00:33:10.745 --> 00:33:13.755 and I do, if you're not optimistic and you don't have hope because 00:33:13.755 --> 00:33:16.735 otherwise you just go in such a dark place, you'd never leave it, you know? 00:33:17.275 --> 00:33:18.165 Amy Peace: You have to be. 00:33:18.285 --> 00:33:20.795 Russ Hall: Yeah and I don't know about Amy, but I'm going to, I'm 00:33:20.795 --> 00:33:22.585 not gonna speak on your behalf, but hopefully you'll agree. 00:33:22.585 --> 00:33:25.245 I, believe in human beings that we will ultimately do the right thing. 00:33:25.865 --> 00:33:27.405 So we will get there, we will get there. 00:33:27.947 --> 00:33:30.768 But we have to, just, as you've just said, we have to make it work for them. 00:33:31.008 --> 00:33:34.078 Amy Peace: Yeah, and I think it's interesting, some of the sort of 00:33:34.078 --> 00:33:38.428 periphery organisations to business, things like insurance and risk, they're 00:33:38.428 --> 00:33:42.458 the ones which actually seem to be ahead of the game on this because, you 00:33:42.458 --> 00:33:46.438 know, it's the bread and butter risk and climate, carbon, it's all part of that. 00:33:46.438 --> 00:33:50.413 So whether you see climate has been a risk because of adaptation, you might 00:33:50.423 --> 00:33:54.363 have some sort of sea level based plants that are getting flooded a lot more 00:33:54.363 --> 00:33:58.273 or similar, or whether you're actually saying, well, we're going to be regulated 00:33:58.273 --> 00:34:02.333 out of operation because carbon is going to have a price to it in a lot more 00:34:02.393 --> 00:34:04.723 sort of places or crossing borders. 00:34:05.603 --> 00:34:08.440 You then realise that if you don't take this seriously, then that 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:09.893 is a major risk to your business. 00:34:09.903 --> 00:34:15.298 So I think that element of doing business, insurance, is probably the 00:34:15.298 --> 00:34:19.028 one that's going to be, for those who aren't proactively doing this, 00:34:19.068 --> 00:34:22.218 the enthusiasts, it's probably going to be the biggest stick to actually 00:34:22.218 --> 00:34:26.458 make the others take note and that's my optimism, that insurers will... 00:34:26.468 --> 00:34:29.968 Russ Hall: I, I had a, did a really interesting talk to NatWest senior 00:34:29.968 --> 00:34:34.348 leadership team, in February and the message that I took was, sustainability 00:34:34.348 --> 00:34:38.758 is great for business because if we are helping businesses to be more 00:34:38.758 --> 00:34:41.488 productive in a more sustainable way, odds are they'll have more 00:34:41.848 --> 00:34:43.318 operating money floating around. 00:34:43.673 --> 00:34:46.383 They've got more operating money floating around, that means that you 00:34:46.383 --> 00:34:49.573 can give them bigger loans and all of a sudden everything clicks and you 00:34:49.573 --> 00:34:52.836 start to see how it all comes together and the insurers, the banks, as Amy's 00:34:52.836 --> 00:34:56.286 just said, they are ahead of this, they know where it is because they 00:34:56.286 --> 00:34:57.806 see the risks and they're worried. 00:34:58.536 --> 00:35:00.583 So let's just provide the answers. 00:35:00.673 --> 00:35:03.713 Let's provide the ways of measuring what we've done, sharing the 00:35:03.713 --> 00:35:05.153 solutions that will all come together. 00:35:05.328 --> 00:35:08.078 Dallas Campbell: And then the ball will start rolling and we'll all be fine. 00:35:08.078 --> 00:35:11.568 Maybe. 00:35:11.568 --> 00:35:13.718 Thank you so much, Amy and Russ. 00:35:13.718 --> 00:35:14.998 It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. 00:35:14.998 --> 00:35:15.468 Thank you. 00:35:15.808 --> 00:35:16.328 Amy Peace: Thanks, Dallas! 00:35:16.633 --> 00:35:16.843 Russ Hall: Thank you. 00:35:17.701 --> 00:35:20.731 Dallas Campbell: To hear future episodes of In-Orbit, don't forget to be sure to 00:35:20.731 --> 00:35:23.641 subscribe on your favourite podcast app. 00:35:23.991 --> 00:35:28.101 And to find out more about how space is empowering industries in between episodes, 00:35:28.571 --> 00:35:33.341 you can of course visit the Catapult website or join them on social media.