WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:54.545 welcome back to Equine Assisted World, where we look at the, amazing mosaic 00:00:54.965 --> 00:01:00.035 of, how horses help humans, and how it's evolved from its early days 00:01:00.305 --> 00:01:04.685 with therapeutic riding and assisted riding into the super complex world 00:01:04.685 --> 00:01:09.705 of neuropsych and, emotional, conditions and all points in between. 00:01:10.485 --> 00:01:13.215 This week I've got a phenomenal guest. 00:01:13.245 --> 00:01:18.795 This is Joy O'Neill, who runs Red Barn in Birmingham, Alabama. 00:01:19.395 --> 00:01:22.915 And, if you live in the usa, you know, Alabama's always 00:01:22.915 --> 00:01:24.205 one of the forgotten states. 00:01:24.635 --> 00:01:29.045 And people often don't expect to see cutting edge work come out of there, 00:01:29.045 --> 00:01:33.155 but often it does look at Huntsville, for example, the tech center and, you 00:01:33.155 --> 00:01:35.975 know, the amazing work they do at the university in Tuscaloosa and so on. 00:01:36.305 --> 00:01:38.015 And Red Barn is no exception. 00:01:38.045 --> 00:01:42.005 I've been following the, the progress of that work there forever, a 00:01:42.005 --> 00:01:47.055 decade now, and, where it really, excels and goes to the cutting edge. 00:01:47.105 --> 00:01:51.135 he actually does this in many ways, but, there is a real, there were one of 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:53.385 the early pioneers in work with trauma. 00:01:53.725 --> 00:01:57.535 And now of course it's a relatively common thing to find people working, 00:01:57.585 --> 00:01:58.875 with horses and trauma and so on. 00:01:58.875 --> 00:02:02.985 But really red, bam, were one of the first to get into it on a, on a really, 00:02:03.105 --> 00:02:10.635 Deep level and their, work with, JC Dugard who I will let Joy talk about 00:02:10.635 --> 00:02:14.955 if you don't know who she is and now their work with polyvagal theory and 00:02:14.955 --> 00:02:19.785 the vagal nerve and all of this, it's, it's, it's gone from the, oh, let's 00:02:20.335 --> 00:02:23.545 look at this thing and because we know that it works, to now knowing the 00:02:23.545 --> 00:02:29.835 science behind it, and, it's really a, a beacon, within the American Southeast 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:36.255 and I'd say within the US in general for how this type of work should look. 00:02:36.285 --> 00:02:39.535 And Joy is a really interesting, person to be doing this cuz she 00:02:39.535 --> 00:02:41.695 didn't come from that background yet. 00:02:41.695 --> 00:02:45.175 When you go out to Red Barn, it looks so beautiful. 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:47.005 It's one of these beautifully manicured places. 00:02:47.010 --> 00:02:49.225 You think, oh, it's gonna be like a fancy hunter jumper barn. 00:02:49.495 --> 00:02:52.765 And then you go in there and it's like, oh no, they do this really interesting work. 00:02:52.765 --> 00:02:52.915 But. 00:02:53.845 --> 00:02:55.165 They all ride really well. 00:02:55.165 --> 00:02:55.855 That's interesting. 00:02:56.035 --> 00:02:57.655 So they also have a showing background. 00:02:58.085 --> 00:03:00.785 But Joy's background wasn't with horses originally at all, 00:03:01.125 --> 00:03:02.835 nor really with neuropsych. 00:03:02.925 --> 00:03:08.325 So, and then Joy also has her own work that she does, representing 00:03:08.415 --> 00:03:12.175 women with, heart conditions, which she will let you know about because 00:03:12.175 --> 00:03:14.425 that's another rather forgotten world. 00:03:14.455 --> 00:03:17.615 We generally think about heart conditions as, a male preserve. 00:03:18.225 --> 00:03:19.035 But of course it isn't. 00:03:19.705 --> 00:03:23.735 So without further ado, joy, welcome. 00:03:25.795 --> 00:03:28.015 Joy ONeil: Thank you so much for having me and for all your kind words. 00:03:28.015 --> 00:03:29.395 I hope I can live up to them. 00:03:29.725 --> 00:03:33.215 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's that very modesty, which as you know, 00:03:33.275 --> 00:03:35.075 makes you do all that amazing work. 00:03:35.175 --> 00:03:37.575 So tell us who you are. 00:03:37.575 --> 00:03:38.535 Where did you begin? 00:03:38.535 --> 00:03:39.645 Where were you born? 00:03:40.035 --> 00:03:43.455 Where'd you go to school and how'd you get into this funny old horse thing? 00:03:45.315 --> 00:03:45.525 Oh 00:03:45.530 --> 00:03:46.095 Joy ONeil: my goodness. 00:03:46.095 --> 00:03:48.275 It's a, gosh, I'm not even sure where to start. 00:03:48.345 --> 00:03:51.675 If I start rambling, you'll just have to tell me and tell me to move on. 00:03:51.675 --> 00:03:56.735 Not to, not to go too much, but, I was born in Birmingham, Alabama. 00:03:56.740 --> 00:04:01.905 I've lived here my entire life and, my mother was married to, in 00:04:01.905 --> 00:04:06.565 a very abusive relationship and, it was a horrible relationship. 00:04:07.105 --> 00:04:10.735 She left when I was very young and we moved in with my grandparents 00:04:11.395 --> 00:04:13.615 and lived there for quite a while. 00:04:13.735 --> 00:04:16.466 And then my mom remarried and we moved around a lot. 00:04:16.825 --> 00:04:20.695 And so I went to eight different schools when I was growing up 00:04:20.755 --> 00:04:24.995 and, never in any of that time had anything to do with horses. 00:04:26.255 --> 00:04:28.175 Kind of fast forward many, many years. 00:04:28.295 --> 00:04:32.985 Got married and my, my two children and I, got. 00:04:34.685 --> 00:04:36.395 To be part of this blended family. 00:04:36.875 --> 00:04:40.555 And we were, one, one spring break. 00:04:40.645 --> 00:04:44.545 We were gonna take all the kids on a trip to Disney World, and we decided 00:04:44.605 --> 00:04:49.525 that we just absolutely would not be strong enough to survive a trip, 00:04:49.555 --> 00:04:50.995 even to the happiest place on Earth. 00:04:51.535 --> 00:04:56.545 And so we canceled the trip and we let each of the five children pick 00:04:56.545 --> 00:04:57.775 something that they wanted to do. 00:04:58.375 --> 00:05:03.685 And so my oldest child, Alexis, decided that she wanted to go ride horses. 00:05:03.805 --> 00:05:06.625 And so we all went as a family to go ride horses. 00:05:07.145 --> 00:05:07.265 I. 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.850 And, while we were there, Emmett and I just kind of looked at each other 00:05:10.850 --> 00:05:14.780 and noticed that all the kids were getting along and that that was very 00:05:14.780 --> 00:05:17.300 unusual for them to, to all be together. 00:05:17.300 --> 00:05:19.580 And it was something new for our entire family. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:22.460 None of us really had a whole lot of experience for it. 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:28.110 And, just from that one, that one thing, we just started going back to the barn 00:05:28.110 --> 00:05:29.670 for the kids to take riding lessons. 00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:34.530 And one thing just kind of led to another and I saw firsthand how great horses 00:05:34.530 --> 00:05:36.990 were for kids who had disabilities. 00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:40.630 And, that was kind of what started at all was not going to. 00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:42.440 So, okay. 00:05:42.440 --> 00:05:42.600 So, 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:44.920 Rupert Isaacson: so the moral of the stories don't go to Izzy. 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:46.360 Well spend your dogs on horses. 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:46.630 Yes. 00:05:47.020 --> 00:05:48.220 I think we can order on that one. 00:05:48.220 --> 00:05:48.280 Yeah. 00:05:48.690 --> 00:05:50.490 But so very interesting. 00:05:50.490 --> 00:05:53.910 So right from the get go there you are in a difficult situation. 00:05:53.910 --> 00:05:57.180 You have kids from another relationship. 00:05:57.610 --> 00:05:58.640 You've now blended those kids. 00:05:59.565 --> 00:06:02.395 Into a family, maybe it's a little rocky. 00:06:02.935 --> 00:06:04.135 And the thing that Yeah. 00:06:04.585 --> 00:06:06.745 Brings them together is horses. 00:06:08.395 --> 00:06:08.815 Joy ONeil: Correct? 00:06:09.265 --> 00:06:09.655 Yeah. 00:06:09.985 --> 00:06:11.845 I mean, there was a lot of stuff that happened kind of in between, 00:06:12.115 --> 00:06:15.235 you know, there, but no doubt. 00:06:15.565 --> 00:06:17.365 Didn't know how long you, how much you wanted to get into. 00:06:17.515 --> 00:06:17.995 Well, we, 00:06:17.995 --> 00:06:19.076 Rupert Isaacson: we, we want to know the full story. 00:06:19.105 --> 00:06:22.195 We, we want, we want, you know, the Game of Thrones version, 00:06:22.885 --> 00:06:24.160 but obviously, oh my goodness. 00:06:24.420 --> 00:06:29.150 You know, it's, it's whatever you feel comfortable sharing and, but the, 00:06:29.150 --> 00:06:35.330 the, what stands out from that story is that in that difficult situation 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.900 and kids in blended families, you know, it's, it isn't all roses. 00:06:38.900 --> 00:06:39.650 We know this. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:47.575 It's wonderful what horses can do to unite people, I feel, and, help 'em find 00:06:47.575 --> 00:06:52.195 their sort of tribe, their, you know, their, their, their functional family. 00:06:52.195 --> 00:06:53.005 Because everyone. 00:06:53.725 --> 00:06:55.885 Sort of concentrates on that job together. 00:06:56.665 --> 00:07:02.035 But you say Alexis, your oldest daughter, so she was the one you felt who really 00:07:02.635 --> 00:07:07.110 took to it initially the most, but the others also of the five kids. 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:08.640 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 00:07:08.640 --> 00:07:12.630 All five of our kids rode when, when they were little, when Emmett and I 00:07:12.630 --> 00:07:18.330 were married, the kids were, he had a 10 year and eight old, this was six. 00:07:18.980 --> 00:07:21.560 I had a four year old, and then he had a three year old, 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:27.260 so 5, 10, 8, 6, 4, and three. 00:07:27.440 --> 00:07:33.020 And we all began to ride horses together and it just really was a great, just 00:07:33.020 --> 00:07:34.700 a great way for us to be outside. 00:07:34.700 --> 00:07:37.940 I feel lucky that at that, at that timeframe, kids didn't have 00:07:37.940 --> 00:07:42.020 as much access to cell phones and iPads and so many electronics. 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:47.810 So we really were just out at the barn together, learning 00:07:47.810 --> 00:07:49.310 together and, and I think. 00:07:50.105 --> 00:07:53.640 You know, one, one of the things I know now, that I didn't know then 00:07:53.940 --> 00:07:57.940 it just sort of happened, is that there's this concept that, Dr. 00:07:57.940 --> 00:08:01.660 Rebecca Bailey from transitioning families in the Polyvagal Institute 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:05.970 talks about, and that is the, the therapeutic dose of a conversation. 00:08:06.790 --> 00:08:08.820 And it's really just a few seconds. 00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:14.850 And so as I was trying to get to know my stepchildren, and we were, you know, 00:08:14.850 --> 00:08:19.080 just talking or kind of going through some, the, the difficult times of being 00:08:19.080 --> 00:08:24.360 in a blended family, which I had also grown up in a blended family, so I, I 00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:29.400 had an appreciation of what they were going through, but it's that therapeutic 00:08:29.400 --> 00:08:32.400 dose of just a few seconds, you know? 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:37.410 So as we are maybe grooming a horse side by side, Not having 00:08:37.410 --> 00:08:40.380 direct eye contact that can feel sort of like a lot of pressure. 00:08:40.380 --> 00:08:42.600 You're just sort of doing something and learning something 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:44.760 together in a relaxed atmosphere. 00:08:45.180 --> 00:08:47.310 When you're outdoors, you hear the birds chirping. 00:08:47.315 --> 00:08:52.080 You have that support of the, the community around you, like you mentioned a 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.990 found family and the warmth of the horse. 00:08:55.210 --> 00:08:59.310 And then also what we know about, now with people just slowing their 00:08:59.310 --> 00:09:04.380 breathing to match the breaths of the horse and the electromagnetic field of 00:09:04.385 --> 00:09:08.160 the horse's heart and its heartbeat, of which I'm certainly not an expert. 00:09:08.610 --> 00:09:14.380 But, just all of those things combined just really helped us to develop 00:09:14.380 --> 00:09:19.110 relationships and, to spend time together in a happy, in a happy place. 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:20.910 How long did 00:09:20.910 --> 00:09:26.180 Rupert Isaacson: you find it took, for the harmony that you were finding when 00:09:26.180 --> 00:09:30.090 you guys went together to the horses to transfer back to your life in the home? 00:09:32.075 --> 00:09:32.825 Joy ONeil: Oh goodness. 00:09:33.035 --> 00:09:37.565 Well, you know, that's a really complicated question because at the ages 00:09:37.565 --> 00:09:42.905 that the kids were at that time, 10, 8, 6, 4, and three, if you think about the 00:09:42.905 --> 00:09:48.335 eight, as they became older, those are just naturally more difficult ages, right? 00:09:49.145 --> 00:09:54.335 Like, ask anybody with five teenagers in their home how much harmony there is. 00:09:55.475 --> 00:10:00.035 So it's you, you know, I, I don't, I certainly don't wanna give the impression 00:10:00.035 --> 00:10:03.815 that it's like, oh, we all went out and groomed horses and everything was fine. 00:10:03.815 --> 00:10:04.985 Never had any problems. 00:10:04.985 --> 00:10:08.495 Cuz we certainly had, you know, a lot of problems with five teenagers 00:10:09.035 --> 00:10:10.985 in the house all at one time. 00:10:11.035 --> 00:10:17.820 But I'll say that now that the youngest is in their thirties, It's really, I, 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:21.240 I think it's like just the other week we were, we were talking about it, you 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:24.180 know, they're, they're starting their own families and having children of their own. 00:10:24.180 --> 00:10:27.090 And so now they're coming back and going, oh my gosh, I remember how 00:10:27.095 --> 00:10:30.360 we used to do X, y, and Z together. 00:10:30.450 --> 00:10:34.470 And I'm like, I think I vaguely remember that, but I thought that 00:10:34.770 --> 00:10:37.920 you were like in the car throwing a fit cuz you didn't want to do that. 00:10:37.926 --> 00:10:41.340 Or, you know, you were pouting or you didn't really like it. 00:10:41.345 --> 00:10:46.260 And so I, I think one of the, the fun funner things about getting 00:10:46.265 --> 00:10:50.130 older is being able to relate to your children on a new and different level. 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:55.010 And to look back and relive those times, and see that even things that you didn't 00:10:55.010 --> 00:10:59.450 think really meant a lot to them at, in that moment, because maybe they 00:10:59.455 --> 00:11:02.090 were like extra teenager at that time. 00:11:02.510 --> 00:11:08.270 That it really does pay off and it help draws you together later in the 00:11:08.270 --> 00:11:08.510 Rupert Isaacson: end. 00:11:08.610 --> 00:11:09.350 Yeah, sure. 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:12.330 I think a lot of us when we're teenagers, While we're pouting and throwing 00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:16.230 fits, we sort of assume that our parents know that underneath all that 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:17.460 we sort of actually do quite dig it. 00:11:17.850 --> 00:11:20.440 And, and the parents, of course are, are completely mystified 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.720 thinking, no, actually I thought you were just a really terrible mood. 00:11:23.260 --> 00:11:26.110 And there, there goes one of God's great jokes about how 00:11:26.115 --> 00:11:27.490 humans misunderstand each other. 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:31.630 But how did you go from, I, I love this, term you used about, the, the 00:11:31.630 --> 00:11:33.700 therapeutic dose of a conversation. 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:38.770 How, how did, how did you transition from that then into suddenly running? 00:11:39.130 --> 00:11:42.670 Cause I'm sure it wasn't sudden this therapeutic barn. 00:11:43.030 --> 00:11:44.890 Please talk us through that chronology. 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:47.080 Joy ONeil: Okay. 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:53.050 So the kids all started riding horses, and so of course we, I was 00:11:53.050 --> 00:11:54.700 there with them in a part of it. 00:11:54.730 --> 00:11:59.170 And it was something like I mentioned all five of the kids. 00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:07.160 They were, they picked, they got involved in other activities and 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:08.960 just one thing kinda led to another. 00:12:08.965 --> 00:12:12.950 And, but when we were really in the thick of it, we decided that 00:12:12.955 --> 00:12:17.780 we wanted to purchase some land and keep horses there ourselves. 00:12:17.880 --> 00:12:20.750 And, and the more that we learned about horses, the more that we 00:12:20.750 --> 00:12:24.680 realized that the place where we were taking the kids to have the riding 00:12:24.685 --> 00:12:27.110 lessons wasn't in the best of shape. 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:29.150 And they were very hardworking. 00:12:29.150 --> 00:12:33.080 And we really wanted to do something to, to make it possible 00:12:33.085 --> 00:12:36.650 for more and more people to, to experience what we had discovered. 00:12:38.060 --> 00:12:41.780 And so the, the person who I considered kind of my, one of my main 00:12:41.780 --> 00:12:43.460 mentors, her name was Anita Coward. 00:12:44.225 --> 00:12:45.905 And, I was talking to Ms. 00:12:45.905 --> 00:12:49.055 Coward about it and I said like, you know, we found this land. 00:12:49.055 --> 00:12:50.645 Would you go with us to look at it? 00:12:50.735 --> 00:12:54.545 And we're thinking about buying it to keep horses there and, you know, if you 00:12:54.545 --> 00:12:57.215 wanted to operate out of this, you could. 00:12:58.895 --> 00:13:00.695 And so we met Ms. 00:13:00.695 --> 00:13:04.385 Coward and we were driving down to look at the barn at the property here. 00:13:04.895 --> 00:13:05.495 And Ms. 00:13:05.495 --> 00:13:11.315 Cower just began to cry, and I couldn't figure out what was going on or about her. 00:13:11.885 --> 00:13:16.745 And then she backed up a little bit, told me the, the story about, many, 00:13:16.745 --> 00:13:22.475 many, many years in the sixties ago when her daughter was killed in a car wreck. 00:13:23.495 --> 00:13:23.825 And Ms. 00:13:23.825 --> 00:13:27.455 Cower was just devastated because her daughter was her, her best friend, 00:13:27.455 --> 00:13:29.015 her, you know, her only daughter. 00:13:29.605 --> 00:13:30.565 She had three sons. 00:13:30.565 --> 00:13:35.485 But there was just something special about having a daughter, and she was, Ms. 00:13:35.490 --> 00:13:36.085 Cower was. 00:13:37.390 --> 00:13:39.280 Just upset and angry with the Lord. 00:13:39.970 --> 00:13:43.570 And so she stopped on this very property where we were 00:13:43.570 --> 00:13:46.390 located and, stopped and prayed. 00:13:46.390 --> 00:13:48.430 There's a really peaceful spot down by the river. 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:52.900 And so she stopped and prayed there and she asked God to take the hurt away 00:13:52.900 --> 00:13:58.780 from her so that her anger wouldn't be seen as a lack of faith, but that 00:13:58.780 --> 00:14:02.850 she would still be able to find a way to, to show everyone that she trusted 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:04.650 the Lord even in this hard times. 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:08.040 And so she remembered the Bible verse that said, when things are given up 00:14:08.640 --> 00:14:11.340 to and still glorify the Lord, that they can be returned a hundred fold. 00:14:12.105 --> 00:14:16.095 And so she writes in her journal about, kind of having this argument 00:14:16.395 --> 00:14:19.185 with God and she describes it to like wrestling with them. 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:23.205 And she's like, okay, I don't want just a hundred fold more daughters. 00:14:23.205 --> 00:14:25.035 I want a thousand fold more daughters. 00:14:25.485 --> 00:14:29.085 And so more and more her daughter's friends kept coming 00:14:29.355 --> 00:14:30.825 to their house to ride horses. 00:14:31.125 --> 00:14:34.005 And of course the boys will tell you it's because they were handsome 00:14:34.005 --> 00:14:35.655 and charming and, and they are. 00:14:36.135 --> 00:14:39.435 But if you talk to the girls, they say it's mainly because of the horses. 00:14:39.885 --> 00:14:44.805 And so one by one, all those, all those families just kept coming to ride with Ms. 00:14:44.805 --> 00:14:45.285 Coward. 00:14:45.345 --> 00:14:46.035 And of course, Ms. 00:14:46.035 --> 00:14:50.895 Coward moved at several times throughout that until one day that was our family. 00:14:51.675 --> 00:14:53.295 And so, 00:14:53.395 --> 00:14:53.665 Rupert Isaacson: and Ms. 00:14:53.665 --> 00:14:57.265 Cart was the person you'd been riding with all this time with your kids? 00:14:58.510 --> 00:14:59.110 Joy ONeil: Right. 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:01.360 She had owned the, the barn. 00:15:01.390 --> 00:15:04.270 She was the founder of the, the barn where they had ridden. 00:15:04.780 --> 00:15:10.100 And so, as she got older, she sold the barn to someone else who, who ran it. 00:15:10.610 --> 00:15:14.010 And, my kids got older and they had other interests. 00:15:14.040 --> 00:15:15.060 And Ms. 00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:19.170 Cower and I would walk around the property and just talk about how much it had meant. 00:15:19.260 --> 00:15:22.860 And our family went through a really, really difficult time. 00:15:23.430 --> 00:15:24.510 And I, you know, I told Ms. 00:15:24.510 --> 00:15:28.680 Coward, I felt like the barn saved, saved my life. 00:15:28.920 --> 00:15:32.980 You know, just having that sense of peace and, being there and the 00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:35.440 relationship that I had with our children, I felt like it wouldn't have 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:40.540 been possible and how lucky I had felt because horses are very expensive. 00:15:41.050 --> 00:15:46.060 And through some course of volunteer work that I had done, you know, I really 00:15:46.060 --> 00:15:50.170 realized that it, like if there were so many people who wouldn't ordinarily 00:15:50.170 --> 00:15:52.450 have access to this, And so Ms. 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:56.530 Coward and I talked about using the back half of the property to 00:15:56.530 --> 00:16:01.000 set up a therapeutic program for people who would not otherwise be 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.590 able to afford to work with horses. 00:16:03.310 --> 00:16:07.960 And but it was always just kind of a dream, sort of like this, this thought. 00:16:08.830 --> 00:16:11.770 And so, but, and nothing really happened about it. 00:16:11.830 --> 00:16:17.780 And then, I was, went through a really difficult time physically 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.080 and the doctors could not figure out what was going on with me. 00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:24.930 And, they started mentioning something, this little disease called Lou 00:16:24.930 --> 00:16:28.890 Gehrig's Disease and I was terrified. 00:16:30.390 --> 00:16:33.990 Cause the thought of being diagnosed with Lou Gehrigs was, 00:16:34.040 --> 00:16:37.190 just, oh, it was just awful. 00:16:37.195 --> 00:16:39.010 Rupert Isaacson: Talk us to Lou Gehrigs, for those of those 00:16:39.010 --> 00:16:40.190 of us who dunno what it is. 00:16:40.190 --> 00:16:40.930 What is Luke Ericks? 00:16:41.945 --> 00:16:46.515 Joy ONeil: It is, a l s so your body sort of shuts down and you 00:16:46.515 --> 00:16:50.145 become like a prisoner in your own body, even though your mind is fine. 00:16:50.745 --> 00:16:52.545 It's, what Stephen Hawking has 00:16:53.115 --> 00:16:54.975 Rupert Isaacson: the motor neuron, wasting. 00:16:55.485 --> 00:16:55.995 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 00:16:56.175 --> 00:16:56.465 Yeah. 00:16:57.375 --> 00:16:59.095 And so, I was just terrified. 00:16:59.635 --> 00:17:03.235 And so I have this big old scar on the arm right here where they did 00:17:03.235 --> 00:17:07.205 a, muscle biopsy and I had to wait to get the results of that biopsy. 00:17:08.165 --> 00:17:12.695 And it, while I was waiting, I was like, oh, dear God, please, please, please 00:17:12.695 --> 00:17:14.245 don't let this be what they think it is. 00:17:15.225 --> 00:17:17.315 If it's not what they think it is. 00:17:17.375 --> 00:17:22.115 Like, if it's not Lou Gehrigs, I promise I will, I will start the barn that Ms. 00:17:22.115 --> 00:17:24.185 Coward and I dreamed about before she died. 00:17:24.575 --> 00:17:25.505 Like, I'll do anything. 00:17:25.505 --> 00:17:28.505 Just like, please don't let this be, please don't let this be. 00:17:28.985 --> 00:17:31.410 And sure enough, it ended up that's not what it was. 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:35.970 And so I felt like I had needed to keep my end of the. 00:17:36.735 --> 00:17:37.845 Keep my end of the promise. 00:17:37.905 --> 00:17:42.075 And so that's what prompted me to, to live out Ms. 00:17:42.075 --> 00:17:45.565 Coward's, vision that she and I had walked, talked about as 00:17:45.565 --> 00:17:46.705 we walked around the property. 00:17:46.705 --> 00:17:50.065 There's a, a little red barn on the backside of the property 00:17:50.065 --> 00:17:51.525 that wasn't used very much. 00:17:52.975 --> 00:17:59.220 And, she had this vision that children who had afflictions as she called it, being 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:04.080 from her generation, that they would walk through this barn and that they would 00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:05.820 be healed as they worked with horses. 00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:09.690 And she kind of compared it to a car wash that they would like, walk through the 00:18:09.695 --> 00:18:13.500 barn like it was a car wash, be healed and come out on the other side dancing 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:17.910 and happy and just, just full of life. 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:21.000 And so that's what. 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:24.975 That's what I set out to do after that when I found out that I did 00:18:24.975 --> 00:18:26.325 not have Lou Gehrig's disease. 00:18:27.045 --> 00:18:31.265 And so I went back to school and got a degree in nonprofit, administration, 00:18:31.505 --> 00:18:38.255 and we opened up in 2011 and then got our nonprofit certification in 2012. 00:18:40.415 --> 00:18:44.075 Rupert Isaacson: Now, up until that point, you've been keeping horses. 00:18:44.075 --> 00:18:46.295 Your, your kids have been showing. 00:18:46.295 --> 00:18:46.505 Right. 00:18:46.510 --> 00:18:48.455 Alexis became a show rider. 00:18:48.995 --> 00:18:51.845 Joy ONeil: All of the, all of the children showed for a while. 00:18:51.850 --> 00:18:56.075 She was the one who has, continued to do it for the longest, but 00:18:56.075 --> 00:18:56.405 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:18:56.645 --> 00:18:57.875 And still does it to this day. 00:18:58.985 --> 00:18:59.435 It still does. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.115 Yeah, she does. 00:19:00.115 --> 00:19:00.355 Right. 00:19:00.605 --> 00:19:03.245 So you'd gone through this thing, so you, you'd had, you'd found 00:19:03.250 --> 00:19:05.435 family healing through it then. 00:19:05.535 --> 00:19:09.495 Your kids found, you know, their, their sport world through it. 00:19:10.065 --> 00:19:15.385 Some moved on, some kept going, but you still retained this vision 00:19:15.385 --> 00:19:17.365 that you'd had, with Anita Coward. 00:19:17.815 --> 00:19:24.115 When you decided to open, had you limbed up by doing like some volunteer work here 00:19:24.115 --> 00:19:31.285 and there, had you sort of tested out your, your therapeutic biceps at all? 00:19:31.290 --> 00:19:32.245 Did you just jump in cold? 00:19:32.995 --> 00:19:33.595 How'd it happen? 00:19:34.375 --> 00:19:37.925 Joy ONeil: Well, I had been a barn mom, you know, with all five of the kids 00:19:38.015 --> 00:19:43.325 showing horses and riding and doing all sort, you know, all of that kind of stuff. 00:19:43.325 --> 00:19:47.645 So I, I was, I thought I'll put it that way, at least I thought I was 00:19:47.645 --> 00:19:51.125 pretty, new, knew more, at least than I had ever known at that point, 00:19:51.185 --> 00:19:53.556 up until then in my life about it. 00:19:54.605 --> 00:19:56.885 I felt like I had a good education at uav. 00:19:57.305 --> 00:19:59.015 Just sort of teach me the ins and outs of it. 00:19:59.015 --> 00:20:03.445 I had volunteered for many, many years, at different places, 00:20:03.445 --> 00:20:07.645 particularly a homeless shelter, which of course makes you infinitely 00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:09.595 qualified to go start a barn, right? 00:20:10.165 --> 00:20:13.735 So I volunteered at a homeless shelter. 00:20:14.185 --> 00:20:16.675 I'd done a lot of programs with kids. 00:20:16.775 --> 00:20:22.145 You know, I, I really did though feel like everything in my life was 00:20:22.145 --> 00:20:24.815 leading me to that point, you know? 00:20:24.815 --> 00:20:28.715 And of course I, I wouldn't say I knew exactly what I was getting myself 00:20:28.715 --> 00:20:32.465 into because then I might not have done it cuz it was a whole lot harder 00:20:32.465 --> 00:20:36.335 and a whole lot more work and a whole lot more difficult than anything I, 00:20:36.395 --> 00:20:37.805 that I ever thought that I would do. 00:20:37.805 --> 00:20:42.480 So I was sort of very, blessed with the gift of ignorance in some ways. 00:20:42.780 --> 00:20:44.560 But I think it's, I. 00:20:45.585 --> 00:20:49.635 I, I just do, I just feel like every single thing in my life, even all 00:20:49.635 --> 00:20:53.505 of the hard parts in the difficult childhood that I had, and some difficult 00:20:53.505 --> 00:20:57.185 experiences that I had been through, that they had prepared me for that. 00:20:57.190 --> 00:21:00.995 And, and I feel like one of the greatest gifts that I had 00:21:01.025 --> 00:21:02.495 was, the support of my family. 00:21:03.495 --> 00:21:07.455 And I, I certainly don't mean to my extended family, and I, I don't mean 00:21:07.455 --> 00:21:10.485 to say that our, that my extended family hasn't been through some 00:21:10.485 --> 00:21:12.285 difficult times because we have. 00:21:12.795 --> 00:21:17.025 But I think what makes it unique is that we have all stuck by each other through 00:21:17.030 --> 00:21:23.295 those difficult times, and that I have never doubted that I was loved and I've 00:21:23.295 --> 00:21:25.605 never doubted that they would support me. 00:21:26.145 --> 00:21:29.565 And whether that was when I had kind of this crazy idea of starting 00:21:29.565 --> 00:21:32.865 this therapeutic barn, you know, my cousins brought their kids out and 00:21:32.870 --> 00:21:37.990 we practiced on them to, to, to let them ride horses and practice some of 00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:39.460 the different activities that we did. 00:21:40.090 --> 00:21:42.690 And, It just all, it's just all worked out. 00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:50.070 Rupert Isaacson: So you dive in cold and you feel okay, I sort of know 00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:53.940 kind of what I'm doing, then what happens, but not really who, who, 00:21:54.080 --> 00:21:59.325 who, who are the, you know, have you had much experience with, kids, with 00:21:59.375 --> 00:22:01.085 physical and, and mental challenges? 00:22:01.185 --> 00:22:02.325 Do you know how to get 'em on a horse? 00:22:02.325 --> 00:22:05.535 Have you, have you had any formal training or do you just kind of 00:22:05.535 --> 00:22:06.735 go, well, we'll give it a go. 00:22:07.245 --> 00:22:07.845 How does it go? 00:22:08.145 --> 00:22:08.775 Joy ONeil: I'll give it a go. 00:22:09.739 --> 00:22:12.079 I would say some of yes and no. 00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:12.889 Some of, no. 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:18.139 So when I was growing up, there were a lot of people in my life who 00:22:18.139 --> 00:22:21.769 had disabilities and I never really thought of them as any different. 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.509 And, you know, just, here's a, a little story. 00:22:26.609 --> 00:22:29.279 So I grew up in this really small town way out in the middle of 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:30.959 nowhere in the middle of the country. 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:35.069 And the biggest thing to do was to go to the baseball field and 00:22:35.069 --> 00:22:36.839 watch the youth sports baseball. 00:22:37.439 --> 00:22:39.449 And this field was named Billy Joe Field. 00:22:39.809 --> 00:22:40.889 Billy Joe Young Field. 00:22:41.369 --> 00:22:46.209 And so Billy Joe Young was a guy who, when he was in high school, in 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.129 a freak football accident, became paralyzed from the neck down. 00:22:51.419 --> 00:22:53.249 And, but he still loves sports. 00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:58.614 And so Billy Joe's mama would, drive him up to Billy Joe Young Field that was 00:22:58.614 --> 00:23:07.044 named in his, in his honor and behind home plate, they had this big concrete block 00:23:07.674 --> 00:23:14.424 rectangle, and she had this big old yellow suburban and he lived in a hospital bed. 00:23:14.844 --> 00:23:20.094 And so she would back up to that, roll his hospital bed out behind home 00:23:20.094 --> 00:23:24.594 plate and a microphone was hanging from the ceiling and he would. 00:23:25.074 --> 00:23:26.784 Call and announce the games. 00:23:27.504 --> 00:23:30.774 Now he, I wish, I know this is a podcast so people can't see it, 00:23:31.104 --> 00:23:35.274 but he had very little motion with his arms that he could talk. 00:23:35.334 --> 00:23:36.894 He was a talker, a talker, a talker. 00:23:37.494 --> 00:23:41.514 And so when I was little, some of my very first memories were going to sit and 00:23:41.514 --> 00:23:46.794 watch those baseball games while Billy Joe called him out and feed him a hotdog. 00:23:47.094 --> 00:23:51.714 And if you were a really, like, if you got, you felt lucky if you were the 00:23:51.714 --> 00:23:58.294 chosen person to get to go feed Billy Jo a hotdog and learn how to, keep 00:23:58.299 --> 00:24:00.124 the scorebook for the baseball field. 00:24:00.124 --> 00:24:05.104 Like I never thought of Billy Joe as anything other than. 00:24:05.899 --> 00:24:11.089 A great, a great person and, and like I was not ever raised to think 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.199 that just because somebody was in a wheelchair or paralyzed from the neck 00:24:15.229 --> 00:24:19.279 down or, or different, and, you know, there were certainly people that now 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:23.719 I look back and I'm like, oh, I bet if autism diagnosis had been around 00:24:23.724 --> 00:24:28.279 or more known, then that's what, you know, uncle so-and-so would've been. 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:33.799 Or that's what so-and-so like, like, it just never occurred to us that 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:40.254 somebody that was different was less than, my uncle, David's sister had 00:24:40.254 --> 00:24:43.615 polio and so she was, you know, in a wheelchair and sort of bent over. 00:24:43.620 --> 00:24:47.454 And my, my grandmother's Aunt Cora, you know, came over to her house 00:24:47.454 --> 00:24:48.864 and she was also in a wheelchair. 00:24:48.894 --> 00:24:52.974 My, all of my family worked on the coal mines and at that time, safety 00:24:52.974 --> 00:24:56.124 wasn't as, common maybe as it is now. 00:24:56.124 --> 00:24:59.304 And so there were lots of people who were missing fingers and parts of their legs 00:24:59.304 --> 00:25:02.394 or arms, and it just never occurred to me. 00:25:02.859 --> 00:25:06.334 That they were less than or that they couldn't do, anything that 00:25:06.334 --> 00:25:07.594 they really set their mind to. 00:25:07.834 --> 00:25:11.734 You know, if it was possible to do it without a leg or without three of your 00:25:11.734 --> 00:25:14.375 fingers or something, you know, like it was just So who were your first, 00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:16.294 it was just a great way to be raised. 00:25:16.299 --> 00:25:17.734 Rupert Isaacson: Who, who were your first clients when they 00:25:17.734 --> 00:25:18.784 came in through your door? 00:25:19.024 --> 00:25:20.464 You opened the doors of Red Barn. 00:25:20.884 --> 00:25:21.424 Who comes in? 00:25:22.564 --> 00:25:27.904 Joy ONeil: So, when I was first talking about, about opening up the barn, Alexis 00:25:27.904 --> 00:25:31.474 was going to school at Birmingham Southern or to college at Birmingham Southern. 00:25:32.284 --> 00:25:35.554 And she had had a speaker come to her class and talk about autism. 00:25:36.244 --> 00:25:39.879 And so when, Alexis and I were talking about the barn and my 00:25:39.879 --> 00:25:44.589 vision, she said, I think you should start by going to meet this person. 00:25:45.499 --> 00:25:48.169 Her name was Sandy Nemore and she was the executive director at a 00:25:48.169 --> 00:25:49.309 place called Mitchell's Place. 00:25:50.239 --> 00:25:54.949 And she said, I think you should go talk to her and see about having some 00:25:54.949 --> 00:25:56.289 of their students come out and be. 00:25:57.154 --> 00:25:59.314 Like the first groups that you work with? 00:25:59.704 --> 00:26:03.154 So it was actually someone, with autism, whose name was Reid. 00:26:03.734 --> 00:26:04.024 Okay. 00:26:04.354 --> 00:26:06.454 And he, I, you know, I went and met with Sandy. 00:26:06.459 --> 00:26:08.434 She's like, sure, I'll put up some posters. 00:26:09.004 --> 00:26:13.864 And so Reid's mom saw it and, and she brought Reid one day. 00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:18.044 And, I had hired someone who was going to be a, who was a therapeutic 00:26:18.044 --> 00:26:19.394 horseback riding instructor. 00:26:19.824 --> 00:26:25.524 But she left the week before, like we had made the appointment with Reid 00:26:25.884 --> 00:26:29.214 and then she, she decided to leave. 00:26:29.804 --> 00:26:33.294 And I didn't know how to get in touch with Reed's mom. 00:26:34.204 --> 00:26:37.434 So like I, I just like talked to her on the phone. 00:26:37.434 --> 00:26:39.714 I had not written down her phone number, so I did know 00:26:39.714 --> 00:26:41.124 how to cancel the appointment. 00:26:41.894 --> 00:26:43.209 Because the instructor had left. 00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:47.739 And so I called Alexis and I was like, Hey, I like, I'm gonna feel really bad. 00:26:47.739 --> 00:26:48.909 Will you come be here with me? 00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:52.089 This lady's coming, you know, I'll explain to her that we're probably gonna 00:26:52.089 --> 00:26:55.539 have to close because the employee that we hired isn't gonna be able to do it. 00:26:56.169 --> 00:26:58.869 Will you like, you know, so we'll just come. 00:26:58.874 --> 00:27:03.369 So I had every intention of closing that very first day, cuz I just 00:27:03.369 --> 00:27:04.539 felt like I'd already failed. 00:27:05.589 --> 00:27:09.129 And so Reid's mom gets here and Reid gets out of the car and I look at his 00:27:09.129 --> 00:27:13.179 precious face and he is just so excited. 00:27:13.179 --> 00:27:15.789 And all he wants to do is just pet and touch the horse. 00:27:15.789 --> 00:27:21.129 And I, I just look at him and I just, I couldn't tell her that we were closing. 00:27:21.429 --> 00:27:25.419 And it, that's what really gave me at, like, I tear up even just thinking 00:27:25.419 --> 00:27:29.729 about it, but it was, it was like in that moment I thought even though I 00:27:29.734 --> 00:27:33.959 don't have a clue what to do next. 00:27:34.889 --> 00:27:38.909 I know that I've got to do whatever the next step is because this 00:27:38.909 --> 00:27:42.839 little kid is worth it and all he wants to do is pet a horse. 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:44.969 And I know enough to let him do that. 00:27:44.969 --> 00:27:47.609 I'll figure the rest out as we go along. 00:27:48.749 --> 00:27:50.989 Rupert Isaacson: Now, as you know, then one begins to look 00:27:50.994 --> 00:27:54.769 into all the methodologies and trainings and go, oh my gosh. 00:27:54.769 --> 00:27:56.599 It's, you know, it's, it's a confusing world there. 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:58.579 Do I, do I choose this one? 00:27:58.579 --> 00:27:59.629 Do I choose that one? 00:27:59.629 --> 00:28:03.049 They all seem to say that they're the right one or the only one. 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.009 So how do I make that choice? 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:09.789 So did you then decide, okay, I'm gonna look for some sort of 00:28:09.789 --> 00:28:13.839 more formalized training, and if so, what did you choose and why? 00:28:14.169 --> 00:28:17.799 Or did you just feel your way or was it a mixture of both? 00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:18.849 How did it evolve? 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:22.329 Joy ONeil: It's a mixture of both. 00:28:22.719 --> 00:28:27.929 I would say that I'm not very, a very impulsive person, but I do. 00:28:29.274 --> 00:28:33.854 And I do like to do a lot of research, like look things and, analyze it. 00:28:34.544 --> 00:28:39.824 But I, I'm also though very intuitive, so I may spend weeks researching things 00:28:39.829 --> 00:28:42.464 and then go, but I feel like doing this. 00:28:42.924 --> 00:28:47.134 So, like I, I just wanna make an informed intuitive decision. 00:28:47.914 --> 00:28:52.614 And, so I just began to learn as much about autism as I could after going to 00:28:52.884 --> 00:28:54.684 to talk with sanity and meeting Reid. 00:28:54.684 --> 00:29:00.374 And, one day my Uncle David called me and he, he knew that I was learning more about 00:29:00.379 --> 00:29:06.884 autism and he actually saw an interview by you on one of the Sunday night TV shows. 00:29:07.574 --> 00:29:09.074 And he called me up. 00:29:09.074 --> 00:29:10.844 He's like, quick, quick turn on your tv. 00:29:10.844 --> 00:29:12.704 There's this guy and he's talking about autism. 00:29:12.704 --> 00:29:17.384 And he went all the way to Mongolia and like he's doing stuff with horses. 00:29:17.384 --> 00:29:18.554 You need to learn more about him. 00:29:19.154 --> 00:29:23.414 And so I did from that very beginning, and I know it's kind of weird to think about, 00:29:23.414 --> 00:29:31.394 but that was way back in, I guess like 2010, 2011, you know, within those years. 00:29:31.394 --> 00:29:34.864 And, it's not like it is today where you can just Google everything 00:29:34.869 --> 00:29:38.014 and you know, everybody's got a website, you know, it was much harder 00:29:38.014 --> 00:29:39.394 to learn about things back then. 00:29:40.474 --> 00:29:44.784 And so, and then you came and spoke at like, just a few months later you came 00:29:44.784 --> 00:29:48.954 and spoke at something in Birmingham and I recognized your name and that 00:29:48.954 --> 00:29:50.364 was the first time that we met. 00:29:51.174 --> 00:29:56.784 And, and so I, I immediately learned about Horse Boy and there was a lot in it 00:29:57.564 --> 00:29:59.754 that I felt like was just common sense. 00:29:59.754 --> 00:30:02.934 It just really resonated with me that you find something 00:30:02.934 --> 00:30:04.464 that somebody is interested in. 00:30:05.174 --> 00:30:10.659 And you tie that together with being outdoors and with, with 00:30:10.659 --> 00:30:13.119 mainly love in them, which was Ms. 00:30:13.124 --> 00:30:17.319 Cowart's, I guess kind of her, her theme in her life was that love, 00:30:17.619 --> 00:30:21.760 like if you love somebody, you will do what is the best for them. 00:30:22.269 --> 00:30:27.849 Even that may sometimes be a hard thing to do, but if you love somebody, you 00:30:27.849 --> 00:30:31.749 will do what's best and, and you'll help them in whatever ways you could. 00:30:32.409 --> 00:30:37.809 And just that sense of giving somebody that felt like they didn't 00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:40.479 belong a place where they belonged. 00:30:40.899 --> 00:30:45.849 And because I went to so many different schools and we moved so 00:30:45.849 --> 00:30:51.519 much when I was growing up, you know, I always had that sense of 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.169 going back to my grandmother's house. 00:30:53.174 --> 00:30:56.874 That was that one place where I felt like, This is where I belong. 00:30:56.904 --> 00:30:59.964 This is, you know, like, like this is, this is it. 00:31:00.384 --> 00:31:03.234 No matter where I was, I loved the little house on the furry books. 00:31:03.414 --> 00:31:07.284 But when I was growing up, because those were the things, no matter 00:31:07.289 --> 00:31:11.334 where Laura moved, she always had, you know, her family with 00:31:11.334 --> 00:31:12.804 her no matter what was going on. 00:31:13.674 --> 00:31:16.999 And I really wanted to provide that for kids who felt like they 00:31:16.999 --> 00:31:22.069 didn't fit in because for so much of my life I had felt like I didn't 00:31:22.069 --> 00:31:24.439 really have a place where I fit in. 00:31:25.189 --> 00:31:28.609 Where it was easy, it was always hard for me to make friends cuz we moved so much. 00:31:29.269 --> 00:31:36.634 It was, our, our family was, I would say very poor and a lot of the time. 00:31:37.054 --> 00:31:41.614 And, you know, not having the things that everybody else had or 00:31:41.614 --> 00:31:43.384 not being able to afford to go. 00:31:43.384 --> 00:31:46.294 Sometimes even on school field trips, like there might be times I 00:31:46.294 --> 00:31:47.345 couldn't even afford to go on that. 00:31:47.350 --> 00:31:50.644 And you know, you're the one kid who doesn't get to go. 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:52.369 Do those other things. 00:31:53.029 --> 00:31:54.739 Everybody else is, and they're like, why didn't you go? 00:31:54.739 --> 00:31:55.879 It's like, oh, I didn't wanna go. 00:31:56.089 --> 00:31:58.429 Like, well, I wouldn't, I'd never wanna go do that. 00:31:58.909 --> 00:32:03.109 But, deep inside you're going, oh my gosh, I wish I could afford to do those things. 00:32:03.114 --> 00:32:09.049 But, it, it's like, I mean, I know it sounds kind of hokey or like a, like 00:32:09.049 --> 00:32:18.529 silly or whatever, but I just felt this desire to do it, even though it made 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:21.109 no logical sense whatsoever at all. 00:32:21.139 --> 00:32:25.129 It was just something that I could not let go of. 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.899 I just did not have any peace within my soul unless I was planning to do this. 00:32:29.929 --> 00:32:35.659 And I'm so grateful to my wonderful husband, who had the resources to 00:32:35.664 --> 00:32:37.189 help me make that dream come true. 00:32:37.189 --> 00:32:42.049 Because in doing that, I feel like it healed a lot of the things inside of 00:32:42.049 --> 00:32:45.109 me to be able to, to make that happen. 00:32:46.729 --> 00:32:49.369 Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's, let's talk about how that 00:32:49.639 --> 00:32:51.619 side of the work has evolved. 00:32:51.719 --> 00:32:58.269 You, you've become, one of the places that people look to in the American Southeast 00:32:58.269 --> 00:32:59.889 when it comes to autism for sure. 00:33:01.239 --> 00:33:07.759 How you also have this other really interesting, side to the work at Red Barn. 00:33:07.819 --> 00:33:13.709 And, you know, through your partnerships with JC Dugard and now, Rebecca at 00:33:13.709 --> 00:33:15.839 the, poly Equine Polyvagal Institute. 00:33:16.139 --> 00:33:18.659 I wonder if you could talk to us about that. 00:33:19.049 --> 00:33:22.329 Not every, not every, listener here is gonna know who JC Dugard is. 00:33:22.729 --> 00:33:26.569 So could you start with her story and then how you got into 00:33:26.574 --> 00:33:28.159 doing the work you do with her? 00:33:29.719 --> 00:33:29.989 Sure. 00:33:30.349 --> 00:33:35.369 Joy ONeil: So, gosh, I was trying to remember the year. 00:33:38.074 --> 00:33:40.834 It might have been like 2013 or 14. 00:33:40.964 --> 00:33:47.804 We had a very freak snowstorm in Alabama, we don't get a whole lot of snow, so 00:33:47.804 --> 00:33:54.044 there was snow and ice and everybody at the barn, like the roads went from 00:33:54.044 --> 00:33:59.864 perfectly fine to being undrivable within just a matter of two hours. 00:34:00.044 --> 00:34:03.674 Kids were unable to get outta school. 00:34:03.704 --> 00:34:06.614 School teachers had to spend the night with children in their classrooms. 00:34:06.644 --> 00:34:12.254 It was like a once a century freak thing that happened where 00:34:12.284 --> 00:34:13.574 the roads were impassable. 00:34:14.194 --> 00:34:16.754 Everybody just had to kind of hunker down where they were. 00:34:17.234 --> 00:34:22.694 So there were about 12 of us at the barn that day, and we had to 00:34:22.694 --> 00:34:27.944 end up all spending the night here and for a couple of days becau like 00:34:28.034 --> 00:34:29.894 that's how long that it lasted. 00:34:30.734 --> 00:34:33.434 Although I, I joke sometimes that, I think it was more like a month, but 00:34:33.434 --> 00:34:35.384 it was really just an, a few nights. 00:34:35.954 --> 00:34:39.954 But, and so like, all these people are here and what are we gonna do? 00:34:39.954 --> 00:34:46.014 So I began to just research things, try to find some videos or movies that 00:34:46.014 --> 00:34:50.784 we could watch, to make the best use of that time because everybody was 00:34:50.784 --> 00:34:52.254 getting really anxious and worried. 00:34:52.254 --> 00:34:57.354 And I felt like if I could do something that would keep everybody busy, they would 00:34:57.744 --> 00:34:59.484 be able to, to cope a little bit better. 00:34:59.574 --> 00:35:04.464 So I came across a story of JC Dugard because, she was being 00:35:04.524 --> 00:35:06.264 interviewed by Oprah Winfrey. 00:35:06.714 --> 00:35:11.814 And so I watched, watched that video and one day I hope you'll 00:35:11.814 --> 00:35:14.784 interview her and she can tell you much more about her own story. 00:35:14.784 --> 00:35:19.594 But just the highlights would be that she was, or I guess maybe the low lights, she 00:35:19.594 --> 00:35:25.324 was kidnapped when she was 11 years old and held for 18 years in a guy's backyard. 00:35:25.984 --> 00:35:31.924 And endured it just unthinkable traumatic experiences during that time. 00:35:32.494 --> 00:35:36.304 And when she was reunited with her family, she met Dr. 00:35:36.309 --> 00:35:41.584 Rebecca Bailey and they did, econ assisted therapy together as a way 00:35:41.584 --> 00:35:45.544 to help JC and her family reunite. 00:35:46.144 --> 00:35:50.374 And that really resonated with me because I felt like working with 00:35:50.374 --> 00:35:55.474 horses had helped my own blended family to come together and unite. 00:35:55.474 --> 00:35:57.154 And so I really kind of understood that. 00:35:57.574 --> 00:36:02.914 And so in the interview, JC mentioned that she was gonna start a foundation 00:36:03.574 --> 00:36:07.114 to provide a curriculum to help people that wanted to do that. 00:36:08.104 --> 00:36:12.124 And so during the middle of the night of this snow freak snowstorm, I 00:36:12.124 --> 00:36:14.584 just have hours and hours to Google. 00:36:14.944 --> 00:36:19.054 And so I just Google track down the foundation, it has a contact page. 00:36:19.054 --> 00:36:23.224 I sent in information and said, I'd like to learn more. 00:36:23.809 --> 00:36:27.859 And a little bit later I received a message from them saying, we're 00:36:27.859 --> 00:36:29.959 looking for an agency to work with. 00:36:30.379 --> 00:36:31.819 You're down in the middle of nowhere. 00:36:31.824 --> 00:36:35.719 Nobody would ever think of us being there, so we'll be glad to come. 00:36:36.259 --> 00:36:39.199 And that's, that's how we met. 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:42.919 And it was just, I think, an instant connection, of just 00:36:42.919 --> 00:36:44.359 being really like-minded. 00:36:44.359 --> 00:36:49.079 And, and the more that I have worked with them and, gotten to know them, I really 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:54.569 realized that a lot of the things that were just good old common sense, you 00:36:54.569 --> 00:37:00.399 know, being, being sent outside to play, not having a lot of electronics, always 00:37:00.399 --> 00:37:05.979 being surrounded by people who love you and care for you, and, just, just all 00:37:05.984 --> 00:37:10.479 of those things that they kind of helped me understand why those things worked. 00:37:12.069 --> 00:37:16.359 Like bilateral repetitive motion, which is also a big tenant in natural lifeman. 00:37:17.664 --> 00:37:21.324 You know, like all of those things kind of work together and it's like, 00:37:21.324 --> 00:37:21.694 Rupert Isaacson: talk us through that. 00:37:22.274 --> 00:37:26.634 That's why Bilateral, just repeat that again, bilateral. 00:37:26.634 --> 00:37:26.664 Joy ONeil: Oh. 00:37:27.364 --> 00:37:29.254 It's based on the work of Dr. 00:37:29.254 --> 00:37:32.004 Bruce Perry and it's bilateral repetitive motion. 00:37:32.464 --> 00:37:32.794 Okay. 00:37:32.944 --> 00:37:33.514 Talk to us about that. 00:37:33.514 --> 00:37:36.074 Which is, I'm certainly not an expert. 00:37:36.134 --> 00:37:40.594 I don't wanna, I, I encourage people to go to go look up, look up those, the works 00:37:40.594 --> 00:37:47.044 of Bruce Perry and Natural Life Manship and the Polyvagal Equine Institute, but 00:37:47.044 --> 00:37:53.504 they are, it's when it's like, why you feel better when you go take a walk or 00:37:53.504 --> 00:37:57.464 when you ride a horse, it's the left and the right side of your brain moving. 00:37:57.464 --> 00:38:03.434 Like, think of it like mdr, you know, as the, the tapping left and right sides. 00:38:03.439 --> 00:38:05.864 Rupert Isaacson: Just not everyone's gonna know these acronyms. 00:38:05.864 --> 00:38:07.114 Joy, what is emdr? 00:38:07.364 --> 00:38:12.064 Joy ONeil: It's just, it is just movement on the left and the right side that helps. 00:38:12.064 --> 00:38:13.714 I, this is how I think of it. 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:18.544 This may be totally wrong, but it just helps your brain to organize what you're 00:38:18.544 --> 00:38:24.064 thinking and to come up with a way to work through it, through difficult situations. 00:38:24.644 --> 00:38:27.429 It's that bilateral motion of the horse. 00:38:27.849 --> 00:38:32.254 And I think, you know, you put, you, you put all of the, all that 00:38:32.254 --> 00:38:33.964 language that you have behind it. 00:38:34.084 --> 00:38:37.984 I'm sure everybody's familiar with all the things that you, that you advocate. 00:38:38.374 --> 00:38:41.044 The, the rocking of the hips, the moving back and forth, the 00:38:41.049 --> 00:38:44.074 up and down, the concentrating, the, the repetitiveness of it. 00:38:44.594 --> 00:38:47.264 it's almost like, like even a chant or a meditation. 00:38:48.534 --> 00:38:49.544 It, even though 00:38:50.150 --> 00:38:56.090 like horses provide it, you can find it in walking, biking, swimming, anything 00:38:56.090 --> 00:39:01.010 that you can just do that helps your, helps your brain develop neuroplasticity, 00:39:01.010 --> 00:39:02.900 it helps your brain relax. 00:39:03.080 --> 00:39:06.200 It can maybe even distract your brain a little bit so that you're focused on 00:39:06.200 --> 00:39:10.100 something else and you're not always telling yourself that same story over and 00:39:10.100 --> 00:39:13.790 over and over, and like digging yourself deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole. 00:39:14.870 --> 00:39:20.055 And so, I just, just, the more that I've learned, the more that I realized. 00:39:20.115 --> 00:39:24.575 Even just breathing, I was in the band, all throughout high school. 00:39:24.575 --> 00:39:29.135 So thinking about how you were taught to breathe in deeply and to exhale, 00:39:30.155 --> 00:39:34.595 I was like, oh, that may have helped if I came into band really upset or, 00:39:35.265 --> 00:39:37.395 anxious or had lots of things going on. 00:39:37.455 --> 00:39:39.665 Even just doing that to be able to play my instrument. 00:39:41.130 --> 00:39:46.530 Was helping me to overcome some difficult experiences. 00:39:47.330 --> 00:39:51.360 Rupert Isaacson: So, so tell us about how does this work now happen at Red Barn? 00:39:51.570 --> 00:39:56.270 So specifically the work that you're doing, with JC Dugard and 00:39:56.275 --> 00:39:57.590 the Equine Polyvagal Institute. 00:39:57.950 --> 00:40:01.370 Describe to us how a session might go and who the client might be. 00:40:03.740 --> 00:40:10.700 Joy ONeil: our average student is someone who has a physical or a 00:40:10.705 --> 00:40:13.250 cognitive or an emotional disability. 00:40:14.110 --> 00:40:16.060 a Google or Ransom reports. 00:40:16.060 --> 00:40:23.090 And, the average age is about 10 years old, but if, chronologically, but a 00:40:23.090 --> 00:40:28.430 lot of those students have a cognitive impairment, so they may be operating 00:40:28.520 --> 00:40:30.650 on more of a six or seven year old. 00:40:32.165 --> 00:40:34.325 Or, you know, like whatever their chronological age is, they're 00:40:34.325 --> 00:40:36.525 usually several years, below that. 00:40:37.905 --> 00:40:42.175 And, we take those, we take what we've learned about the importance of 00:40:42.175 --> 00:40:45.865 being outside, about the importance of hard work and heavy lifting. 00:40:45.870 --> 00:40:49.285 We have two occupational therapists who work here that really influence the 00:40:49.285 --> 00:40:53.005 programs and, and the things that we do. 00:40:53.005 --> 00:40:55.135 And we hold them to a high standard. 00:40:55.255 --> 00:40:58.645 We don't expect less from them just because they have a disability we 00:40:58.645 --> 00:41:00.835 expect the most that they can do. 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.775 And I would say that that's one of the things that our parents tell us that they 00:41:03.775 --> 00:41:07.235 love the most, is that we do not have lowered expectations for their child. 00:41:08.015 --> 00:41:11.995 We have high expectations, and we give them the, the support that 00:41:11.995 --> 00:41:13.525 they need to be able to meet that. 00:41:13.525 --> 00:41:18.805 Because as, as high as the expectations can be, that gives them a greater 00:41:18.805 --> 00:41:22.795 chance of being able to live independently or as independently as 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:26.876 possible and to not be taken advantage of and to have a fulfilling life. 00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:32.260 And so, we just incorporate all of that into everything we do, whether 00:41:32.260 --> 00:41:38.120 that's riding a horse, participating in our job skills program, doing some of 00:41:38.125 --> 00:41:39.500 our equine assisted learning classes. 00:41:40.610 --> 00:41:44.570 We have one called, pencils and Ponies where they do things around the 00:41:44.570 --> 00:41:48.470 property that help them with their fine motor skills so that they can hold a 00:41:48.470 --> 00:41:50.570 pencil and improve their handwriting. 00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:53.810 We do one, that encourages children to read through the 00:41:53.810 --> 00:41:54.810 Horse-powered reading program. 00:41:56.360 --> 00:42:01.910 We do a class called Brain Builders, which takes a book once 00:42:01.910 --> 00:42:03.260 a that meets three days a week. 00:42:03.260 --> 00:42:05.450 We take a book for the entire week. 00:42:05.450 --> 00:42:06.650 The children read the book. 00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:08.700 It's like usually a storybook, a children's storybook. 00:42:08.700 --> 00:42:11.880 They'll read the storybook and then do different activities around 00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:15.670 the property that, Reinforce some of the concepts in the b book. 00:42:15.670 --> 00:42:19.630 Some of the words like sight words, some of the activities, if it's a 00:42:19.630 --> 00:42:23.330 hungry caterpillar, we might talk about what, what are good foods 00:42:23.330 --> 00:42:26.540 to eat and what are foods that give you a tummy ache at the end? 00:42:26.540 --> 00:42:29.930 And, you know, how do you, how do you plan all those things out? 00:42:29.930 --> 00:42:32.810 We might talk about, just the different animals. 00:42:32.810 --> 00:42:35.740 They might learn their colors, their letters, their numbers. 00:42:36.140 --> 00:42:39.680 It just, whatever it takes, it's just a really integrated 00:42:39.860 --> 00:42:43.430 Rupert Isaacson: So you're combining, you're combining education with, 00:42:43.730 --> 00:42:45.580 with academics, with your, yeah. 00:42:45.580 --> 00:42:46.400 With your sessions. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:46.660 With the horses. 00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:47.750 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 00:42:47.750 --> 00:42:52.750 There's, well, the horseback riding lessons are horseback riding lessons, 00:42:53.540 --> 00:42:58.580 and then there are unmounted lessons that can incorporate horses, but they can 00:42:58.580 --> 00:43:00.380 also just incorporate the environment. 00:43:00.410 --> 00:43:06.080 They can go down to the creek and, Look at, listen to the water and listen to the 00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:11.000 birds and, dig up worms and talk about the kind of worms that are in the dirt. 00:43:11.030 --> 00:43:14.870 Like, it's just, I mean, it sounds silly, but it's really just play. 00:43:15.050 --> 00:43:20.150 Like, I, like, I mean, the, the difference is we just now know how good play is. 00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:20.300 Yeah. 00:43:20.590 --> 00:43:25.690 But it's not like we're doing, top level play or, you know, a plus play. 00:43:25.695 --> 00:43:27.100 It's just play. 00:43:27.100 --> 00:43:31.565 It's just letting them be kids, you know, making, taking pieces of, 00:43:31.615 --> 00:43:34.735 clover and making little clover chains and putting it around their head. 00:43:35.155 --> 00:43:37.650 And, it's fi you know, that's improving fine motor skills. 00:43:37.650 --> 00:43:39.390 They're learning to take turns. 00:43:39.390 --> 00:43:42.090 They're learning their colors and their numbers. 00:43:42.090 --> 00:43:45.750 They're learning how to get along and resolve conflict. 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:46.650 It, they're, I, 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.000 Rupert Isaacson: my case walking. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:50.530 You're, you're doing education and academics. 00:43:51.120 --> 00:43:53.340 Tell us about the horse-powered learning. 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:54.570 What's the horse-powered learning program? 00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:55.200 It sounds 00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:55.590 Joy ONeil: interesting. 00:43:56.895 --> 00:43:59.775 So it is meant to encourage children to read. 00:44:00.435 --> 00:44:04.725 So it can be anything from, children read books to the horses. 00:44:05.445 --> 00:44:05.735 Okay. 00:44:05.755 --> 00:44:07.815 See, so that they can practice their fluency. 00:44:07.875 --> 00:44:10.335 So they'll bring their favorite book and read it to the horse. 00:44:10.335 --> 00:44:12.175 What a great idea if, yeah. 00:44:12.465 --> 00:44:14.105 You know, we can read books about horses. 00:44:15.075 --> 00:44:17.715 We can read to the children, they can read to the horses, 00:44:17.720 --> 00:44:18.885 they can read to each other. 00:44:18.885 --> 00:44:21.795 They can just go sit in a peaceful spot and read. 00:44:22.365 --> 00:44:22.965 They can. 00:44:22.995 --> 00:44:26.265 If we're talking about how do you make different words? 00:44:26.265 --> 00:44:31.245 They can lead a horse from, like one letter to another letter to 00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:35.115 make a compound word or one word to another word to make a compound word. 00:44:35.535 --> 00:44:36.405 They can lead. 00:44:36.435 --> 00:44:41.295 Like we might have the word, we might have the letters up on an index card somewhere. 00:44:42.520 --> 00:44:47.260 And then maybe there's the letter C and the letter P and you know, 00:44:47.290 --> 00:44:50.020 other letters on index cards on the other side of the arena. 00:44:50.020 --> 00:44:53.700 And they can walk over, get the first letter, take it to the up 00:44:54.220 --> 00:44:58.160 on the other side, and they can, say, well, does this make a word 00:44:58.160 --> 00:44:59.241 or does it make a nonsense word? 00:44:59.300 --> 00:45:02.450 And if it's a nonsense word, like what do you think that word might mean? 00:45:02.450 --> 00:45:05.480 You know, like they're just all kinds of different ways. 00:45:06.380 --> 00:45:08.270 It's, ex experiential learning. 00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:10.460 But the main point is just to encourage them to 00:45:10.460 --> 00:45:11.140 Rupert Isaacson: read, yeah. 00:45:11.250 --> 00:45:13.110 To make friends with the concept of reading. 00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:16.140 Make friends with a concept rather than, oh yeah, this is a stressful 00:45:16.145 --> 00:45:19.200 thing that you have to do, but this is a playful thing you can do. 00:45:19.350 --> 00:45:19.680 Yeah. 00:45:19.680 --> 00:45:20.400 I, I love it. 00:45:20.820 --> 00:45:21.110 Yeah. 00:45:21.290 --> 00:45:24.510 Joy ONeil: and, and if you can read, you can learn anything. 00:45:25.160 --> 00:45:25.670 Yeah, that's true. 00:45:26.780 --> 00:45:31.430 Rupert Isaacson: You know, do you, do you have, as well as the, the. 00:45:32.060 --> 00:45:36.990 Kids with autism, and related conditions, do you have also a 00:45:36.990 --> 00:45:40.980 particular population with the types of trauma that JC went through? 00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:48.110 Or is it more that you are using, J C's, insights to serve, an autistic population? 00:45:48.390 --> 00:45:49.020 Or is it both? 00:45:51.240 --> 00:45:51.990 Joy ONeil: It's both. 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.650 You know, there are, we have some children who do not have a 00:45:55.650 --> 00:45:57.540 physical or a cognitive disability. 00:45:58.090 --> 00:46:01.300 But they have been through adoption and foster care or foster care and 00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:06.640 adoption and they have endured some horrendous experiences in their young 00:46:06.640 --> 00:46:10.690 life, lived in four or five different foster care homes, you know, are finally 00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:13.300 in a loving home permanent adoption. 00:46:13.300 --> 00:46:16.630 But there's always kind of that, is this really gonna last? 00:46:16.630 --> 00:46:18.130 Can I really let my guard down? 00:46:18.130 --> 00:46:19.030 Can I be myself? 00:46:19.035 --> 00:46:20.200 Is, is this gonna happen? 00:46:20.500 --> 00:46:21.220 We have a great. 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.370 Partnership with an, an organization called apac, which is the Alabama 00:46:25.370 --> 00:46:27.380 Pre and Post Adoption Coalition. 00:46:28.160 --> 00:46:32.120 And they have counselors who come out to, to the barn and work with the parents. 00:46:32.780 --> 00:46:35.900 And then we are able to do different activities with the children, 00:46:35.905 --> 00:46:38.450 and then sometimes the parents and the children work together. 00:46:38.980 --> 00:46:44.080 a lot of children who have disabilities can be easy targets for someone to 00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:48.950 molest, because maybe they can't tell or they don't know that it's 00:46:48.950 --> 00:46:51.105 wrong or, or they can't run away. 00:46:51.135 --> 00:46:52.735 Like they, yeah, they don't know. 00:46:52.765 --> 00:46:53.005 Yeah. 00:46:53.010 --> 00:46:53.695 They can't run away. 00:46:53.695 --> 00:46:57.785 Like there's, there's a lot, unfortunately, a lot of, children 00:46:57.785 --> 00:47:00.395 who have all of those experiences. 00:47:00.395 --> 00:47:04.595 So I think we just kind of take, a lot of what we learn. 00:47:05.705 --> 00:47:09.635 From several different places and are able to sort of synthesize that 00:47:09.635 --> 00:47:13.925 like it's a recipe or ingredients to, to cook something up that's 00:47:13.925 --> 00:47:15.605 specifically what that child needs. 00:47:16.535 --> 00:47:18.395 Rupert Isaacson: One of the other, names you just brought 00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:20.495 up in the course of conversation, you talked about natural lifeman. 00:47:21.545 --> 00:47:23.105 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:47:25.145 --> 00:47:25.415 Joy ONeil: Sure. 00:47:25.415 --> 00:47:31.315 That was started by Tim and Betina Joe and , I think one, the very first time that we 00:47:31.315 --> 00:47:37.215 ever came out to Austin, we went out for a beer with Tim and Betina and, so it 00:47:37.215 --> 00:47:41.475 is there, it's just natural lifeman the. 00:47:43.290 --> 00:47:45.780 I think they're kind of like the quote, I, it's been a while since 00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.900 I've been in their website, but it was, you know, a good theory is a good 00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:50.820 theory regardless of how it's applied. 00:47:51.030 --> 00:47:54.420 So whether that's with how you treat your horse or how you treat a a 00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:59.700 person, just being a good, decent human being is, is really important. 00:48:00.120 --> 00:48:03.810 And it, there's a lot about pressure and release in that. 00:48:04.290 --> 00:48:12.150 And so I think like we just kind of take all of those things and just 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:16.770 internalize 'em and then synthesize 'em and come up with whatever is 00:48:16.775 --> 00:48:18.390 the best way to help that child. 00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:21.480 And it's often very slow paced. 00:48:21.930 --> 00:48:22.170 Yeah. 00:48:23.090 --> 00:48:23.670 And very 00:48:23.670 --> 00:48:24.090 Rupert Isaacson: complicated. 00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:27.820 When you talk about the pressure and release, are you talking about 00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:31.130 that, from human to human as well as obviously from human to horse? 00:48:31.430 --> 00:48:33.890 And if so, how, how might that play out? 00:48:33.890 --> 00:48:37.341 The way in which that could be addressed or looked at? 00:48:38.540 --> 00:48:44.330 Joy ONeil: So just like a recent example of that has been with an adopted 00:48:44.335 --> 00:48:51.890 family where, you know, a lot of times parents don't always get good advice 00:48:52.640 --> 00:48:56.000 from people, or sometimes maybe the way that you're raised, you think, 00:48:56.060 --> 00:49:00.320 oh, that's how I have to discipline a child or to be able to do something. 00:49:00.860 --> 00:49:05.680 And so, we had an adoptive family out and the instructor was working with 00:49:05.685 --> 00:49:14.470 them, and the, the parent never gave the child a chance to do what was asked. 00:49:15.160 --> 00:49:19.360 And the child that they had, had a pretty slow processing time. 00:49:20.110 --> 00:49:24.730 And so the, the parent didn't, like, just thought I told you to do it. 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:25.450 Why didn't you do it? 00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:27.230 Like, they just kept, kept, kept, kept, kept. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.260 And then the child would melt down. 00:49:30.235 --> 00:49:36.805 Rather than giving them a little bit of a moment to process, catch their 00:49:36.805 --> 00:49:43.015 breath, figure out what they were gonna do, and then go, and then take action. 00:49:43.495 --> 00:49:45.805 Like there was not, they weren't waiting long enough. 00:49:46.645 --> 00:49:49.135 And so the parent was interpreting that as defiance. 00:49:50.445 --> 00:49:54.415 And so what the instructor did is have the parent then work 00:49:54.415 --> 00:49:57.805 with the horse and watch them. 00:49:58.075 --> 00:50:02.965 If you just keep asking the horse, like you just keep, like whatever you're 00:50:02.965 --> 00:50:06.955 doing, whether you're kicking your legs or you're, you're just nudging 00:50:06.985 --> 00:50:10.075 it along, or you're trying to lead it and get it to walk, if you just keep 00:50:10.075 --> 00:50:16.585 on, even the horses trying to do it, they're gonna just, it's just gonna be 00:50:16.585 --> 00:50:17.725 too much and they're gonna melt down. 00:50:18.910 --> 00:50:23.405 And so the instructor was able, and then what, like to take that further, what Dr. 00:50:23.405 --> 00:50:26.705 Bailey would, would say with the Polyvagal Equine Institute would 00:50:26.705 --> 00:50:30.935 be, you know, thinking about how that goes from your amygdala. 00:50:31.175 --> 00:50:34.715 Like where you're just sort of in this panic all the way up to the executive 00:50:34.715 --> 00:50:36.005 function of, can you think this through? 00:50:36.155 --> 00:50:40.805 Like, you know, from your brainstem all the way up to this prefrontal cortex. 00:50:41.405 --> 00:50:44.705 Like you've got to give people time, especially when they have a cognitive 00:50:44.705 --> 00:50:46.865 disability, to be able to figure that out. 00:50:47.435 --> 00:50:53.045 And so once the parent realized what that felt like and saw it in the horse, 00:50:53.045 --> 00:50:58.985 they were then able to realize, oh, I've got to just step back and wait a 00:50:58.985 --> 00:51:03.125 second and see do I see forward movement. 00:51:03.125 --> 00:51:07.810 And I, the other day I listened, to your, podcast with Joelle. 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:13.020 And when she talked about how she was telling the kid, just your left hand, 00:51:13.170 --> 00:51:14.620 just your left hand, you know, and. 00:51:15.535 --> 00:51:19.195 And little girl goes, I'm trying, like, I'm doing the best I can. 00:51:19.195 --> 00:51:21.025 Like, oh, I just burst into tears. 00:51:21.025 --> 00:51:21.265 Right? 00:51:21.265 --> 00:51:21.325 Yeah. 00:51:21.355 --> 00:51:25.705 Just like so many times people are doing the best that they can. 00:51:25.710 --> 00:51:25.765 Yeah. 00:51:25.805 --> 00:51:26.095 Yeah. 00:51:26.095 --> 00:51:31.315 And can you just wait it out and let them, you know, support them 00:51:31.315 --> 00:51:35.725 through it and give them what they need and, like in considering all 00:51:35.725 --> 00:51:37.225 the other things that are going on. 00:51:38.125 --> 00:51:38.635 So. 00:51:39.355 --> 00:51:39.625 Yeah. 00:51:39.625 --> 00:51:41.515 That fascinating. 00:51:41.515 --> 00:51:42.505 I hope I answered your question. 00:51:42.595 --> 00:51:42.865 Yeah, you 00:51:43.115 --> 00:51:45.995 Rupert Isaacson: did really good answers it. 00:51:46.675 --> 00:51:47.245 Questions. 00:51:47.345 --> 00:51:51.665 So, I think, you know, obviously we've all made that mistake with pressurizing 00:51:52.025 --> 00:51:55.565 our children, our horses, and so on, largely because we were raised that way. 00:51:55.835 --> 00:52:03.795 And you, it's, it is very difficult for somebody to, any of us, to, rethink and 00:52:03.795 --> 00:52:07.846 readjust and slow down unless we're put in a position where we're forced to, 00:52:08.785 --> 00:52:13.645 It's fascinating to me listening that yes, that makes perfect sense to then 00:52:13.645 --> 00:52:17.935 pair the parent up in a, in a safe way where they're not gonna end up feeling 00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:24.505 shame, but still to pair them up with feedback where that isn't going to work. 00:52:25.405 --> 00:52:29.305 And then to see how a different approach it will work, could 00:52:29.305 --> 00:52:30.595 really breed good results. 00:52:30.595 --> 00:52:34.755 And, I think that's one of the great strengths of Red 00:52:34.755 --> 00:52:39.755 Barn is one often sees places. 00:52:41.595 --> 00:52:45.165 So we do this one thing, we do, we do this thing and this is how we do it. 00:52:45.795 --> 00:52:52.805 You are having gone out to all these, methodologies and then drawing 00:52:52.810 --> 00:52:57.185 from all of them means that, you know, perhaps if you hadn't say, 00:52:57.185 --> 00:53:00.775 gone to the natural life manship or something, you wouldn't have the. 00:53:02.045 --> 00:53:07.535 Particular resources or methodology to seamlessly incorporate something like 00:53:07.535 --> 00:53:11.165 that into a session where you maybe are actually working on something else 00:53:11.165 --> 00:53:14.705 with a kid, you know, to, to be able to say, oh, okay, so in, in this moment 00:53:14.705 --> 00:53:19.035 we need a bit of natural license in this, we need to go more over here. 00:53:19.245 --> 00:53:21.225 Are we doing the reading, the horsepower reading? 00:53:21.225 --> 00:53:25.155 But actually right now we need to use this more neuroscience approach in 00:53:25.155 --> 00:53:26.595 this one here, we need to go more play. 00:53:27.205 --> 00:53:40.045 And I think it's a real strength to be able to learn and incorporate so 00:53:40.045 --> 00:53:43.945 many meth methodologies and see how they actually connect rather than 00:53:43.950 --> 00:53:46.705 falling into the trap of saying, no, no, these are all separate worlds. 00:53:47.035 --> 00:53:50.335 And I'm either a, if it's in the sport horse world, I'm either hunter jumper, 00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:55.105 I'm a rider, or you know, I'm either doing, you know, assisted adaptive 00:53:55.110 --> 00:53:57.565 riding or I'm, you know, working for the. 00:53:58.375 --> 00:54:03.355 Paralympics or I'm doing this one kind of, you know, trauma therapy or something 00:54:03.355 --> 00:54:05.665 like, I think it's, it can be hard. 00:54:05.665 --> 00:54:09.995 We horse people are often a little bit, in the box thinkers rather 00:54:09.995 --> 00:54:11.495 than out the box think thinkers. 00:54:11.875 --> 00:54:14.635 , Joy ONeil: but that was one of the things that I loved about meeting 00:54:14.635 --> 00:54:23.725 you is I felt like movement method incorporates like all of that. 00:54:23.725 --> 00:54:28.045 It's like the umbrella for all of it in some ways because you have the 00:54:28.045 --> 00:54:34.045 brain and then the neuro piece, and you have the horse and the horse's 00:54:34.045 --> 00:54:36.175 movement and how important that is. 00:54:36.625 --> 00:54:39.865 You know, a lot of times in our programs we focus on it for 00:54:39.865 --> 00:54:41.995 strengthening a child who can't. 00:54:42.695 --> 00:54:46.925 Her body because she can't walk because she's in a wheelchair or to, to help 00:54:46.925 --> 00:54:51.795 her move and regain as much, motion as she can because she's using, she's in 00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.545 a walker or she has an assisted device or because they can't talk, you know, 00:54:55.550 --> 00:55:00.705 like we're, we are using the horse a lot of times to strengthen their bodies. 00:55:00.705 --> 00:55:04.725 But, but you talk about that and that's why it's so important that the horses be 00:55:04.725 --> 00:55:12.225 fit, because I would not give someone a wheelchair that was uneven or, or rickety. 00:55:12.675 --> 00:55:12.915 Right. 00:55:12.915 --> 00:55:15.825 Like, you know, we want the horses to have that good movement. 00:55:15.830 --> 00:55:21.435 So movement method and the things that you, in all of the things that 00:55:21.435 --> 00:55:24.645 you promote are about fit horses. 00:55:24.675 --> 00:55:29.325 And we want to treat the horses the same way that we would want to treat a person. 00:55:29.325 --> 00:55:33.195 We want them to be happy and healthy and well taken care of as well. 00:55:33.615 --> 00:55:38.825 And, it like movement to me, movement method and all of your programs. 00:55:39.455 --> 00:55:43.445 Encompass all of that in together. 00:55:44.825 --> 00:55:46.145 Well, you are, you are kind. 00:55:46.235 --> 00:55:49.655 So if I had to pick one, that would be, that would be the one 00:55:49.655 --> 00:55:53.675 I encourage people to start with because it, it includes everything. 00:55:54.575 --> 00:55:56.045 Rupert Isaacson: Well, that is high praise indeed. 00:55:56.095 --> 00:56:00.175 Coming from someone who does work that's as effective as yours. 00:56:01.045 --> 00:56:04.525 There's another area of your work which I'd like to ask you about, which 00:56:04.525 --> 00:56:09.305 is your work with Rebecca, and the Polyvagal, equine Polyvagal Institute. 00:56:09.725 --> 00:56:14.325 Can you talk us through, it's still to, to a large degree in unknown world, 00:56:14.325 --> 00:56:15.525 I think for quite a lot of people. 00:56:15.925 --> 00:56:19.275 So can you give us the skinny, like give us a little seminar 1 00:56:19.275 --> 00:56:23.335 0 1 on what is polyvagal theory? 00:56:23.455 --> 00:56:26.755 It's what you hear this a lot these days, but it's can be hard 00:56:26.755 --> 00:56:31.810 to get people to actually explain what it is and, then how your. 00:56:32.970 --> 00:56:37.170 You've, you've started working with the Equine Polyvagal Institute and again, 00:56:37.175 --> 00:56:42.020 how, how it affects and informs the work that you've got going on at Red Bar. 00:56:42.020 --> 00:56:42.500 -----check if this makes sense------- 00:56:42.520 --> 00:56:44.200 What is polyvagal theory? 00:56:44.335 --> 00:56:45.915 Why the vagal nerve? 00:56:45.945 --> 00:56:47.115 What's the importance of the vagal? 00:56:47.115 --> 00:56:51.765 How, how, well rather, how does the vagal nerve help us in this safe feeling that 00:56:51.770 --> 00:56:54.465 we can then be in the learning brain? 00:56:56.865 --> 00:56:59.415 Joy ONeil: It goes from your brain to your gut, and it conducts the 00:56:59.415 --> 00:57:03.195 oxytocin that gets you in the spot where you're able to learn. 00:57:04.055 --> 00:57:04.355 Go ahead. 00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:06.995 And so, and you cannot learn until you feel safe. 00:57:08.625 --> 00:57:14.610 And so it is all about creating an environment where you feel safe and 00:57:14.610 --> 00:57:22.440 where you feel relaxed and you are just able to pull everything together 00:57:23.370 --> 00:57:28.330 in your brain, in your body, feel the oxy to all the hormones and everything 00:57:28.330 --> 00:57:33.910 that you talk about, you're able to get that and make your life better, 00:57:34.240 --> 00:57:34.600 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:57:35.140 --> 00:57:35.530 So yeah. 00:57:35.535 --> 00:57:38.230 Oxytocin, we know is a feelgood hormone. 00:57:38.230 --> 00:57:39.910 We know it's a communication hormone. 00:57:40.600 --> 00:57:45.640 it's why polyvagal and not just simply vagal. 00:57:46.120 --> 00:57:47.620 Why not just vagal nerve theory? 00:57:47.890 --> 00:57:49.030 What's the poly in there? 00:57:49.254 --> 00:57:51.624 ------------------- Joy ONeil: Okay, so I know just enough to be dangerous in this. 00:57:51.684 --> 00:57:56.494 And you have to keep in mind that my primary, role in the organization 00:57:56.554 --> 00:57:58.864 is on the administrative side. 00:57:59.224 --> 00:58:01.174 Like I love the organizational theory. 00:58:01.179 --> 00:58:06.604 I do not necessarily anymore do any of the direct programming because we 00:58:06.604 --> 00:58:11.794 have great employees who have been through much more training than I have. 00:58:11.824 --> 00:58:15.724 But from what I understand, and I know just enough to be dangerous, is that 00:58:15.724 --> 00:58:18.424 poly means several or more than one. 00:58:18.754 --> 00:58:21.004 So there's the sympathetic nervous system and then that 00:58:21.009 --> 00:58:22.594 parasympathetic nervous system. 00:58:22.654 --> 00:58:28.199 And so that you're constantly, the, the metaphor that they use in the 00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:33.419 Polyvagal equine Institute is that of a carousel in that we are all sort of 00:58:33.419 --> 00:58:36.449 riding up and down, up and down in that. 00:58:36.449 --> 00:58:40.169 And so you're going between your sympathetic and your parasympathetic 00:58:40.439 --> 00:58:45.454 nervous system in that you're learning, Like, suppose that you 00:58:45.604 --> 00:58:49.114 think that, suppose that a snake jumps out at you and that makes you 00:58:49.114 --> 00:58:51.424 scared, you immediately get to that. 00:58:51.424 --> 00:58:53.764 But then you go like, oh wait, it's just a snake. 00:58:53.824 --> 00:58:54.724 Like it's fine. 00:58:54.724 --> 00:58:57.604 It wasn't really a snake, it was just a rubber hose left on the road. 00:58:58.174 --> 00:59:02.074 So the, the faster that you can kind of travel up and down between those 00:59:02.344 --> 00:59:07.004 two states or those two sy, those two, systems, the better that you are. 00:59:07.064 --> 00:59:12.254 And that when you can reframe how you feel in those situations, if it's 00:59:12.254 --> 00:59:17.594 something where you have an intentional decision to do, like if, say that 00:59:17.594 --> 00:59:21.704 you're about to go, I don't know, like on a podcast or something, and you're 00:59:21.704 --> 00:59:25.424 really nervous, instead of thinking, I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous. 00:59:25.784 --> 00:59:29.924 You can reframe that and think, I'm so excited I get to do this. 00:59:29.924 --> 00:59:30.974 I get to share something. 00:59:30.979 --> 00:59:36.974 I, you know, like when you can reframe those experiences and look back and see, 00:59:38.064 --> 00:59:40.814 just see them in a more positive light. 00:59:41.714 --> 00:59:43.229 That, that is also good for you. 00:59:43.769 --> 00:59:46.829 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it might to even look back at past events in that way. 00:59:47.879 --> 00:59:48.359 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 00:59:48.389 --> 00:59:50.999 Like to look back and say, well, like interesting man, that was a 00:59:51.004 --> 00:59:57.509 really rough time, but I can see that I've learned this and so I'll be 00:59:57.509 --> 00:59:59.309 better in the future because of it. 00:59:59.369 --> 01:00:05.969 It's not, it's not always looking back and living in those difficult moments, 01:00:06.269 --> 01:00:14.729 but if you can find even one, like silver lining or one good thing out of that, you 01:00:14.729 --> 01:00:18.029 can clinging onto that and change the way that your brain is thinking about those 01:00:18.034 --> 01:00:22.469 experiences and that that's not meaning that what happened to you was okay. 01:00:22.469 --> 01:00:27.629 It's not saying that what somebody else did to you wasn't wrong to me, it's just 01:00:27.634 --> 01:00:35.159 saying I now have a tool that in spite of those things, I'm gonna come out. 01:00:35.189 --> 01:00:35.669 Okay. 01:00:36.289 --> 01:00:36.639 Right. 01:00:36.699 --> 01:00:39.449 Rupert Isaacson: And to, to thrive rather than just survive. 01:00:39.509 --> 01:00:39.749 Yeah. 01:00:40.694 --> 01:00:41.144 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 01:00:41.564 --> 01:00:45.614 And I think that is like really, really important. 01:00:45.614 --> 01:00:51.054 And you know, you mentioned earlier that, in 2016 I was diagnosed with advanced 01:00:51.054 --> 01:00:55.644 heart failure, and that was a really difficult thing for me to go through. 01:00:55.644 --> 01:01:00.674 I was, for several years before the diagnosis, I had been, telling my 01:01:00.674 --> 01:01:04.814 doctor that I didn't feel well, that like all these things were going on 01:01:04.814 --> 01:01:06.764 and I had just been totally ignored. 01:01:07.514 --> 01:01:13.904 And then by the time I found out it was an advanced stage and I was 01:01:13.974 --> 01:01:19.784 so mad, like angry, angry, angry, mad, like that all that this had 01:01:19.784 --> 01:01:22.724 happened and I just felt cheated. 01:01:22.724 --> 01:01:27.194 And, you know, the more I learned about what the, future could look like for 01:01:27.194 --> 01:01:33.154 somebody with my diagnosis, it was really, it was really a tough time. 01:01:34.314 --> 01:01:42.284 But, Now I look back at that, you know, 2016 to now, and I think, man, what 01:01:42.284 --> 01:01:47.294 that did to change my outlook on life and the things that I thought were 01:01:47.294 --> 01:01:52.004 maybe important back then, you know, now I realize, oh, I'm gonna enjoy 01:01:52.034 --> 01:01:53.784 every single moment, every single day. 01:01:54.854 --> 01:01:58.914 I had, just a chance to like, almost like a second chance at 01:01:58.914 --> 01:02:01.584 life to go back and say, okay, well what's really important to me? 01:02:01.614 --> 01:02:02.844 What do I really wanna do? 01:02:03.554 --> 01:02:09.014 So even just in something like that, being able to, to look back 01:02:09.074 --> 01:02:11.235 and, and count the blessings in it. 01:02:12.374 --> 01:02:13.724 No, it really matters. 01:02:14.144 --> 01:02:16.344 Rupert Isaacson: You are, I'm, the listeners can't see you, 01:02:16.344 --> 01:02:17.754 but I can cause we're on Zoom. 01:02:18.324 --> 01:02:22.854 You are a vibrant and healthy looking person. 01:02:23.404 --> 01:02:27.419 You are not somebody who one would look at and say, oh yes, they look 01:02:27.419 --> 01:02:29.699 like they had advanced heart failure. 01:02:30.269 --> 01:02:36.179 So how come, how come you look so vital? 01:02:36.179 --> 01:02:40.109 How, what, what's the process and how bad did it get? 01:02:40.109 --> 01:02:43.499 Like were you actually, did you collapse and they carted you off 01:02:43.504 --> 01:02:47.904 in, in, in the, ambulance or, where was the point of crisis and 01:02:48.144 --> 01:02:49.344 how have you come back from that? 01:02:51.624 --> 01:02:52.074 Joy ONeil: Gosh. 01:02:52.274 --> 01:02:56.354 You know what it, I think it's interesting that you were 01:02:56.354 --> 01:02:58.784 actually with me during that time. 01:02:58.784 --> 01:03:04.764 You were here in Birmingham and, you had, you came down for a clinic and we were 01:03:04.764 --> 01:03:11.134 at the clinic and I just remember being absolutely exhausted and I had gained 01:03:11.134 --> 01:03:14.824 so much weight and I was just so tired. 01:03:15.514 --> 01:03:18.624 And, I really felt like maybe I was burned out. 01:03:19.404 --> 01:03:21.534 Like I just, it was just so hard. 01:03:21.534 --> 01:03:24.354 Every day was an effort to get up and to go do something. 01:03:24.354 --> 01:03:30.474 And I had been going to the doctor and each time he would tell me, you just 01:03:30.474 --> 01:03:32.304 start, aren't as young as you used to be. 01:03:32.309 --> 01:03:36.714 You're working with these younger girls, you need to, you know, walk more, eat, 01:03:37.104 --> 01:03:39.144 drink more Gatorade, you're dehydrated. 01:03:39.144 --> 01:03:40.524 Just like all of these things. 01:03:40.524 --> 01:03:40.944 I was so upset. 01:03:40.944 --> 01:03:41.484 Oh, that's, that's 01:03:41.484 --> 01:03:42.624 Rupert Isaacson: gonna make you healthy. 01:03:42.804 --> 01:03:43.644 Drinking Gatorade. 01:03:44.424 --> 01:03:45.354 Joy ONeil: Yeah, right. 01:03:45.714 --> 01:03:49.214 Like, you're just dehydrated working outside, you know, just, it was 01:03:49.214 --> 01:03:52.485 very demeaning, very like, oh, we're not as young as we used to be. 01:03:52.574 --> 01:03:54.164 Like very dismissive. 01:03:54.944 --> 01:03:59.344 And, I was just cranky and, it was just a really rough time. 01:04:00.094 --> 01:04:07.474 And I had been driving to the barn and a truck pulled out in front 01:04:07.474 --> 01:04:09.934 of me and it was like one of those near accident kind of things. 01:04:10.234 --> 01:04:10.454 And. 01:04:11.854 --> 01:04:14.014 And I thought, oh my gosh, I could have died. 01:04:14.734 --> 01:04:20.224 And for a split moment, I had the thought, well, if at least if I 01:04:20.224 --> 01:04:22.504 had, I wouldn't be so tired anymore. 01:04:24.304 --> 01:04:28.174 Like I was that tired, I was just exhausted. 01:04:28.174 --> 01:04:29.494 I just didn't feel like myself. 01:04:29.494 --> 01:04:33.664 I felt like it was just exhausting. 01:04:34.264 --> 01:04:38.754 And so the next week we had a meeting at the barn and I, you 01:04:38.754 --> 01:04:42.174 know, I talked about how maybe I felt like I should, should leave. 01:04:42.204 --> 01:04:46.674 And part of our advisory council, one of the members said, like, if that's 01:04:46.674 --> 01:04:50.784 what you wanna do, that's fine, but because you work without pay thinking 01:04:50.784 --> 01:04:55.734 of if you had died, like how would we come up with the money to have paid 01:04:55.734 --> 01:04:57.984 you to pay somebody to replace you? 01:04:58.664 --> 01:05:00.244 And so that's an perspective. 01:05:03.144 --> 01:05:05.644 His suggestion was, get a life insurance exam. 01:05:07.659 --> 01:05:12.069 So that if something like that would've happened, you know, while we don't have 01:05:12.069 --> 01:05:16.659 time to, to plan ahead for how we would pay for this, get a life insurance 01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:20.879 exam, and get a life insurance policy that would be payable to the barn. 01:05:22.379 --> 01:05:24.509 What a very be a couple hundred dollars. 01:05:24.509 --> 01:05:25.409 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:05:25.709 --> 01:05:29.609 He's like, it'd just be a couple of hundred dollars, you know, but like, wow. 01:05:29.609 --> 01:05:33.779 Thinking about how you could have died, like, like that was, which tells 01:05:33.779 --> 01:05:36.329 you, I guess how cranky I had been, if that's what people were thinking of. 01:05:38.969 --> 01:05:41.309 It's like, oh wait, we get the money to replace you. 01:05:41.879 --> 01:05:47.849 So we, so I went and got a life insurance exam, and it was during 01:05:48.209 --> 01:05:50.729 that exam that they did an E K G. 01:05:51.269 --> 01:05:51.559 Okay. 01:05:51.929 --> 01:05:55.469 And now I had been going to the doctor for years complaining of 01:05:55.469 --> 01:05:59.639 gaining weight, hot, sweaty, unable to breathe, just all kinds of things. 01:05:59.644 --> 01:06:01.949 Gain unex, unexplainably, gaining weight. 01:06:03.209 --> 01:06:06.889 And they did an ekg and then 01:06:07.009 --> 01:06:11.029 I got a letter and the letter said that they were gonna have to increase the rate 01:06:11.689 --> 01:06:16.489 because my EKG had come back abnormal and I had not disclosed my heart condition. 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:20.119 And I was like, what are you talking about? 01:06:20.309 --> 01:06:20.599 What? 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:20.959 Heart condition? 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:21.919 A heart condition. 01:06:22.269 --> 01:06:22.559 Okay. 01:06:22.579 --> 01:06:25.819 I've been going to the doctor for two years, there's nothing wrong with me. 01:06:25.819 --> 01:06:26.959 Everything is fine. 01:06:27.889 --> 01:06:33.529 So I called the insurance company and they said, if you'll go get a, go, go 01:06:33.529 --> 01:06:37.909 to a cardiologist and get them to say that maybe the technician the insurance 01:06:37.914 --> 01:06:40.939 company had used had made a mistake, like one of the little electrodes wasn't 01:06:40.939 --> 01:06:44.569 on right, or something like that, that they would honor the original rate. 01:06:45.549 --> 01:06:51.919 So you were in town and I had to leave the clinic early, and you're 01:06:51.919 --> 01:06:53.059 like, oh, I'm sure it's fine. 01:06:53.059 --> 01:06:53.749 I'm sure it's fine. 01:06:53.749 --> 01:06:54.649 Everything will be fine. 01:06:55.549 --> 01:07:00.379 And so I go to this and I find out that it's not fine. 01:07:00.409 --> 01:07:04.279 I have something called the complete left bundle branch block, which meant 01:07:04.729 --> 01:07:08.419 that the right side of my heart's electrical system did not work. 01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:11.899 I mean, the left side of my heart's electrical system didn't work. 01:07:11.904 --> 01:07:15.999 So the right side was having to do all of that, and so it was just wearing down. 01:07:17.224 --> 01:07:19.144 And I was just stunned. 01:07:19.204 --> 01:07:22.534 And you, and you had brought a couple of friends with you to do this clinic. 01:07:23.054 --> 01:07:27.674 We just all sat there and y'all were so supportive and, and you weren't like 01:07:27.674 --> 01:07:32.534 giving me falses support, like, oh, everything is fine, everything is fine. 01:07:32.534 --> 01:07:37.784 Like, you just sat with me in that disbelief and helped me come up with 01:07:37.844 --> 01:07:41.504 how am I gonna go home and tell this to my husband and what am I gonna 01:07:41.504 --> 01:07:44.714 tell my children and what are the next steps and what's gonna happen? 01:07:45.434 --> 01:07:49.414 And so, just all of these, all of these emotions that were 01:07:49.414 --> 01:07:52.084 going on and, and I was so angry. 01:07:52.089 --> 01:07:54.214 Like I just was so mad. 01:07:54.904 --> 01:07:57.604 So one thing kind of led to another and I got involved in with a great 01:07:57.604 --> 01:08:03.679 doctor at uab and she really has helped me to know how to take care of 01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:06.729 myself and, and so I'm doing great. 01:08:07.419 --> 01:08:07.719 So 01:08:07.749 --> 01:08:10.419 Rupert Isaacson: has, has that electrical blockage exercise. 01:08:10.474 --> 01:08:11.104 Unblocked. 01:08:11.164 --> 01:08:14.404 Is your heart now working equally on both sides? 01:08:15.844 --> 01:08:19.264 Joy ONeil: No, I will have that complete left bundle ranch 01:08:19.269 --> 01:08:20.554 block for the rest of my life. 01:08:20.914 --> 01:08:22.684 Like it will, it will always be there. 01:08:22.684 --> 01:08:30.114 And it may have actually back in the early times, like before, as I mentioned 01:08:30.394 --> 01:08:33.244 earlier, starting the barn when I just didn't feel right and they kept thinking 01:08:33.244 --> 01:08:36.574 that maybe it was Lou Gehrigs, they, it was some sort of autoimmune, something 01:08:36.579 --> 01:08:39.094 going on like that could have been 01:08:39.454 --> 01:08:40.474 Rupert Isaacson: the early symptoms. 01:08:40.564 --> 01:08:44.404 Joy ONeil: So something, and it attacked my heart there. 01:08:44.764 --> 01:08:51.664 Also, because of this, I kind of reconnected with a half 01:08:51.784 --> 01:08:55.834 sister and discovered that she has something very similar. 01:08:55.834 --> 01:08:59.554 So it could be a genetic component to it. 01:08:59.804 --> 01:09:04.809 I have a full biological system sister who does not have exactly what I 01:09:04.809 --> 01:09:06.599 have, but she also has a heart defect. 01:09:07.524 --> 01:09:09.414 That kind of came out of some of this. 01:09:09.624 --> 01:09:14.574 So it was really a strange, a strange experience, and it affected not 01:09:14.574 --> 01:09:16.464 just me, but then also my children. 01:09:16.914 --> 01:09:17.004 Sure. 01:09:17.034 --> 01:09:20.094 Because knowing that this is something that I have that could 01:09:20.094 --> 01:09:22.704 be genetic affects them as well. 01:09:22.974 --> 01:09:23.864 Right, right, right. 01:09:24.474 --> 01:09:29.034 So the main thing if, if your visitor viewers or listeners don't get anything 01:09:29.034 --> 01:09:35.074 else out of it, is that women's heart disease is so often misdiagnosed. 01:09:35.644 --> 01:09:39.664 People think that we are just like these frail little wilting flowers. 01:09:39.669 --> 01:09:44.184 Like, oh, you're just worried, or it's anxiety, or, it's just menopause. 01:09:44.414 --> 01:09:47.204 It's just, you know, it's very often dismissed. 01:09:47.984 --> 01:09:55.784 And if my doctor had just done a simple blood test, the enzymes would've shown 01:09:55.784 --> 01:09:57.734 up to show that I was in heart failure. 01:09:59.354 --> 01:09:59.774 Okay. 01:09:59.779 --> 01:10:05.594 So, So my ejection fraction was 25 to 30 when I was first diagnosed. 01:10:06.044 --> 01:10:09.134 Normal is like 55 to 70. 01:10:10.034 --> 01:10:15.824 I'm right at that 50 to 55 mark now with medication and eating a low sodium 01:10:15.824 --> 01:10:21.524 diet and doing the, the proper kind of exercise for, for what my heart needs. 01:10:22.064 --> 01:10:26.984 But women should always insist that their doctors check their hearts 01:10:27.374 --> 01:10:30.614 because it is, or at least in the United States, I guess I can't speak. 01:10:31.154 --> 01:10:31.604 Rupert Isaacson: It's a blood test. 01:10:32.064 --> 01:10:34.444 All they have to do is ask for a particular type of blood test. 01:10:34.914 --> 01:10:35.804 What is that blood test? 01:10:36.134 --> 01:10:36.674 Does it have a name 01:10:37.724 --> 01:10:38.684 Joy ONeil: b P? 01:10:39.544 --> 01:10:44.924 In my situation, in my situation, it would've been a blood test. 01:10:44.929 --> 01:10:46.214 Could have shown it an E. 01:10:46.219 --> 01:10:48.044 An e kg could have shown it. 01:10:48.104 --> 01:10:51.224 And now remember, I went to get a life insurance exam. 01:10:51.919 --> 01:10:57.404 And a technician gave me this EKG in the middle of a life insurance 01:10:57.584 --> 01:10:59.174 company's conference room. 01:10:59.534 --> 01:11:04.634 So it's not even something that has to be ordered specialty like that. 01:11:04.634 --> 01:11:05.294 Only a doctor 01:11:06.434 --> 01:11:07.594 Rupert Isaacson: specialty or anything like, 01:11:07.614 --> 01:11:07.834 Joy ONeil: no. 01:11:08.414 --> 01:11:08.774 Yeah. 01:11:08.779 --> 01:11:13.784 It's just a simple E k G or a simple blood test would've shown this. 01:11:14.234 --> 01:11:18.664 So, and what I have discovered is that unfortunately my story is not unique. 01:11:19.174 --> 01:11:25.054 That there are women all, all the time, every single day across the world whose 01:11:25.054 --> 01:11:30.184 doctors are dismissing things, that if a man went to an emergency room or 01:11:30.184 --> 01:11:34.864 went to the doctor and said, my heart is racing, I'm out of breath every 01:11:34.864 --> 01:11:37.354 time I bend over, like I get dizzy. 01:11:37.354 --> 01:11:40.944 I wake up at night with my heart pounding, I've gained weight. 01:11:41.724 --> 01:11:44.424 You know, sometimes I have a pain in my chest, you know, 01:11:44.454 --> 01:11:45.644 you would be immediately taken. 01:11:47.094 --> 01:11:48.324 To have your heart looked at. 01:11:48.564 --> 01:11:52.674 But in women, and there have been research studies that have shown 01:11:52.674 --> 01:11:57.924 this, women pr women and men both go into a hospital er with exactly 01:11:57.924 --> 01:12:00.294 the same script of what's going on. 01:12:00.834 --> 01:12:05.549 And the women are usually told that they're just being, overly emotional 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:08.129 or anxiety or having a panic attack. 01:12:08.549 --> 01:12:12.809 And the men are taken back immediately to be tested for a heart attack. 01:12:13.739 --> 01:12:15.469 Rupert Isaacson: And what proportion of those women die? 01:12:15.769 --> 01:12:18.509 Do we know what proportion of those women die? 01:12:20.459 --> 01:12:23.059 Joy ONeil: It, heart disease is the number one killer of women. 01:12:23.999 --> 01:12:24.289 Okay. 01:12:26.649 --> 01:12:31.479 And, you know, if you could ask me before my own diagnosis, I probably 01:12:31.484 --> 01:12:35.149 would've guessed that it was cancer, but, that it's heart disease. 01:12:37.819 --> 01:12:43.119 Rupert Isaacson: So you are now, an advocate for women with 01:12:43.119 --> 01:12:44.140 heart disease and, and just. 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:46.689 Women to be represented in this. 01:12:47.049 --> 01:12:49.719 You're very, very, very, very busy running red barn. 01:12:49.719 --> 01:12:53.289 You've got a massive clientele. 01:12:53.889 --> 01:12:57.039 I, when, when I've, I've come down to be like, how do you guys manage it? 01:12:57.039 --> 01:12:57.969 How do you see all these people? 01:12:57.969 --> 01:12:58.809 I said, how do you do it? 01:12:59.349 --> 01:12:59.829 But you do. 01:13:00.549 --> 01:13:04.149 Where do you get time to go and advocate as well? 01:13:04.149 --> 01:13:04.839 It's not easy. 01:13:04.899 --> 01:13:08.349 And I also know you're a, a grandmother, although you, I dunno 01:13:08.354 --> 01:13:10.539 how you can be a grandmother at 25, but you seem to have achieved it. 01:13:11.059 --> 01:13:11.779 Joy ONeil: Oh, aren't you sweet? 01:13:12.259 --> 01:13:14.059 But the, I think you and I are the same 01:13:14.099 --> 01:13:15.409 Rupert Isaacson: age Indeed. 01:13:15.409 --> 01:13:19.099 And I'm looking, I'm looking at us on the zoom screens and I, I, I see a difference. 01:13:20.259 --> 01:13:20.529 , Joy ONeil: whatever. 01:13:20.529 --> 01:13:21.399 I have grandchildren. 01:13:21.399 --> 01:13:22.479 The age of your children. 01:13:22.959 --> 01:13:23.179 Yes. 01:13:24.219 --> 01:13:24.309 Rupert Isaacson: Ok. 01:13:24.309 --> 01:13:24.739 Rub it in. 01:13:25.059 --> 01:13:25.299 Yeah. 01:13:26.589 --> 01:13:27.009 But yeah. 01:13:27.009 --> 01:13:27.939 So how do you find the time? 01:13:27.944 --> 01:13:30.069 You're, you're, you are, you're rushed off your feet, you're busy. 01:13:30.759 --> 01:13:34.449 And I presume, do, do you still feel sometimes, even, 01:13:34.479 --> 01:13:35.809 even now, with your self-care. 01:13:36.714 --> 01:13:37.644 Regime and so on. 01:13:38.754 --> 01:13:43.824 Do you still sometimes feel close to burnout or has that gone away? 01:13:43.824 --> 01:13:45.024 There's really two separate questions. 01:13:45.024 --> 01:13:47.754 One is, how do you find the time for this advocacy work? 01:13:47.754 --> 01:13:49.914 And B, what do you do about burnout? 01:13:52.164 --> 01:13:56.664 Joy ONeil: I guess I find the time because I tend to generally be pretty organized. 01:13:57.894 --> 01:14:01.974 So, and I think you, you just have to prioritize things 01:14:01.974 --> 01:14:03.714 and try to, to make the time. 01:14:03.714 --> 01:14:08.634 I would say one of the things that I starting to have our grandchildren, you 01:14:08.639 --> 01:14:14.094 know, I really began to think about how lucky I was and how grateful I was to, to 01:14:14.094 --> 01:14:18.144 still be alive, to be able to see them, and so to be able to spend time with them. 01:14:19.119 --> 01:14:20.679 Is my first priority. 01:14:20.949 --> 01:14:24.969 And I think that is also good for the organization because without them, I 01:14:24.969 --> 01:14:30.639 think I could have been in danger of becoming a founder who stayed around 01:14:30.639 --> 01:14:35.499 and in control for a little bit too long, you know, could have stayed in. 01:14:35.499 --> 01:14:41.829 And so one of the good things about intentionally stepping back is that 01:14:41.834 --> 01:14:45.849 other people in the organization have stepped up to lead it more. 01:14:45.849 --> 01:14:47.049 I don't do anything. 01:14:47.049 --> 01:14:51.579 I, and I haven't done anything in direct programs in probably 01:14:51.579 --> 01:14:52.839 at least six or seven years. 01:14:52.939 --> 01:14:53.789 Like it's, I 01:14:53.789 --> 01:14:55.809 Rupert Isaacson: just have all that unstressful 01:14:55.809 --> 01:14:57.159 fundraising to do, for example. 01:14:57.499 --> 01:14:57.789 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 01:14:58.149 --> 01:14:58.329 Yeah. 01:14:58.329 --> 01:15:02.139 I do the fundraising and the, the human resources and the administrative 01:15:02.139 --> 01:15:07.729 things, but we have a great team and that's really very important to me. 01:15:09.379 --> 01:15:12.149 So I don't know, and I think it just kind of comes naturally. 01:15:13.729 --> 01:15:15.959 It's very integrated into everything that I do. 01:15:16.829 --> 01:15:19.279 What do you know, whether it's talking about the barn or talking 01:15:19.279 --> 01:15:21.319 about heart disease, it just 01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:22.609 Rupert Isaacson: right naturally comes up. 01:15:22.614 --> 01:15:27.169 You're, you're now, you've gone from being a, a technician to being a, an 01:15:27.169 --> 01:15:31.279 advocate really for the programs and what you do while still, you know, 01:15:31.339 --> 01:15:32.779 providing all these programming. 01:15:33.359 --> 01:15:38.759 Do you still sometimes feel close to burnout and do you have tips for people? 01:15:38.764 --> 01:15:42.699 I know an awful lot of listeners, are constantly dealing with this. 01:15:42.729 --> 01:15:47.979 They're either been running programs for years, you know, and are exhausted by it. 01:15:48.099 --> 01:15:53.889 Or they're, you know, trying to get programs up and feeling that pressure. 01:15:54.829 --> 01:15:54.864 Yeah. 01:15:55.004 --> 01:15:56.624 And, you know, juggling their lives with it. 01:15:57.014 --> 01:15:58.334 What's your tip? 01:15:59.324 --> 01:16:00.374 How do you manage burnout? 01:16:01.664 --> 01:16:05.194 Joy ONeil: I would say anybody who says that they aren't on the verge at times, 01:16:06.434 --> 01:16:11.354 Of burnout is probably just unaware that they're on the verge of that. 01:16:11.834 --> 01:16:14.944 And I think for me, I received my diagnosis in 2016. 01:16:16.454 --> 01:16:20.714 Most people with my diagnosis, if you search it, have like 01:16:20.714 --> 01:16:22.304 a five year life expectancy. 01:16:22.934 --> 01:16:28.754 So I spent those first, you know, couple of years, like 16, 17, 18, really 01:16:28.754 --> 01:16:33.884 thinking about my life, who I was, what I wanted to be, my legacy, my children, 01:16:33.944 --> 01:16:35.324 just all of those kind of things. 01:16:35.324 --> 01:16:41.024 I felt like I had just kind of gotten back in a groove in 2019 01:16:42.644 --> 01:16:44.154 with everything kind of going. 01:16:44.324 --> 01:16:47.894 And then of course 2020 hit the pandemic and that was like 01:16:48.434 --> 01:16:50.024 being knocked back down again. 01:16:50.564 --> 01:16:54.584 Feel like we've just, you know, are kind of getting, getting 01:16:54.584 --> 01:16:56.204 back on our feet after that. 01:16:56.204 --> 01:17:01.494 I mean, not just us personally, but us as the world at least, or 01:17:01.494 --> 01:17:02.614 at least the world in Alabama. 01:17:03.554 --> 01:17:09.794 But what I find is when I, when I get close to burnout is, and this was one 01:17:09.794 --> 01:17:12.974 of the things that I kept trying to tell my doctor, is I've always been able to, 01:17:12.974 --> 01:17:17.294 when I get close to burnout, I have sort of like a little system that I can do. 01:17:17.294 --> 01:17:20.414 And none of that was working back before my diagnosis. 01:17:21.014 --> 01:17:22.654 And that was, I just take some time. 01:17:22.754 --> 01:17:28.844 And I have, I'm so blessed to have amazing friends and family and I just 01:17:28.844 --> 01:17:33.974 ask them honestly, and they are always great to give me honest feedback about 01:17:34.244 --> 01:17:36.434 myself and my ideas and my thoughts. 01:17:36.644 --> 01:17:41.654 And if I'm being cranky and, you know, need to take a break, I 01:17:41.654 --> 01:17:43.184 would go do things with my friends. 01:17:43.184 --> 01:17:45.044 I would spend time with my family. 01:17:45.044 --> 01:17:50.129 I would really spend time, In prayer and just being alone, being quiet. 01:17:50.459 --> 01:17:50.699 Mm-hmm. 01:17:50.759 --> 01:17:55.909 Just spend a whole day in bed, you know, just, just quiet thinking, praying. 01:17:55.914 --> 01:17:56.659 Give yourself permission 01:17:56.659 --> 01:17:57.169 Rupert Isaacson: to do that. 01:17:57.169 --> 01:17:57.459 Yeah. 01:17:57.979 --> 01:17:58.339 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 01:17:58.339 --> 01:18:01.129 Just like reconnecting with God. 01:18:01.129 --> 01:18:05.509 Cuz I do feel like when I, when I don't have that strong relationship is 01:18:05.509 --> 01:18:07.099 when I can start to feel burned out. 01:18:07.099 --> 01:18:13.099 But when I feel that I am living my life the way that, he built and 01:18:13.099 --> 01:18:16.939 designed and equipped me to be able to do that, I have extra energy and 01:18:16.939 --> 01:18:20.049 extra time to be able to, to go do and take care of all those things. 01:18:20.509 --> 01:18:23.179 And so, Like being able to do that. 01:18:23.539 --> 01:18:28.369 I love to crochet and watch Star Trek, so, you know, I can at the same 01:18:28.369 --> 01:18:29.989 time, crochet or watch Star Trek. 01:18:30.169 --> 01:18:30.459 Yeah. 01:18:30.464 --> 01:18:30.769 Yeah. 01:18:31.099 --> 01:18:36.239 And then, you know, just finding ways to reconnect with, with watching, the 01:18:36.244 --> 01:18:41.039 kid, if I'm, if I feel like it's burned out at work, I could go watch a lesson. 01:18:41.369 --> 01:18:41.589 Mm. 01:18:41.819 --> 01:18:46.469 Read, read an email from a parent, you know, look at our program evaluations. 01:18:46.469 --> 01:18:50.199 I know most organizations do program evaluations, to be able 01:18:50.204 --> 01:18:51.579 to show the work that they do. 01:18:51.584 --> 01:18:54.519 I feel like we do program evaluations because it helps to 01:18:54.524 --> 01:18:56.199 prevent burnout among our staff. 01:18:56.204 --> 01:18:56.769 That's good. 01:18:56.769 --> 01:19:00.909 To be able, able to see, you know, like the things, like, you may think, 01:19:00.969 --> 01:19:03.039 oh, this child isn't getting anywhere. 01:19:03.399 --> 01:19:06.909 You know, like they're, they barely speak three words. 01:19:06.914 --> 01:19:10.089 They only held their head up for five seconds while they were riding. 01:19:10.089 --> 01:19:14.409 You know, all, all these things that seem incredibly slow to you, but 01:19:14.409 --> 01:19:20.574 then you read it in writing from the parent who says, When they see me turn 01:19:20.574 --> 01:19:24.054 down Bailey Road, they start smiling. 01:19:24.654 --> 01:19:27.204 When they recognize where they're going, they wake up and 01:19:27.204 --> 01:19:28.824 say, oh, today is Wednesday. 01:19:28.824 --> 01:19:29.964 I get to go to the barn. 01:19:30.024 --> 01:19:35.034 You know, like all of those things, when you get to see it and read it and you 01:19:35.034 --> 01:19:39.594 realize that your work is meaningful and it's changing lives, even if it's 01:19:39.864 --> 01:19:44.549 at a snails pace sometimes, the, the breakthroughs are great, but they're not 01:19:44.554 --> 01:19:47.279 as often as the snail pace kind of things. 01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:52.299 Or a, a former student comes back and tells you, you know, oh, remember 01:19:52.304 --> 01:19:55.809 that time all those years ago that you did so and so, and you're like, 01:19:55.949 --> 01:19:57.339 no, I don't even remember that. 01:19:58.569 --> 01:20:00.249 And they say, that meant so much to me. 01:20:00.249 --> 01:20:01.599 That was just so amazing. 01:20:01.599 --> 01:20:03.099 That was a turning point in my life. 01:20:03.104 --> 01:20:03.529 Like mm-hmm. 01:20:04.839 --> 01:20:11.124 Like that is really, Like, those are the things, at least for me, that that help. 01:20:11.124 --> 01:20:14.424 But, but I also think just having a reasonable expectation 01:20:14.814 --> 01:20:16.314 and being willing to say no. 01:20:16.344 --> 01:20:19.854 Or, or even if it's not no, it's like I can't do it yet. 01:20:20.844 --> 01:20:22.674 Like, you know, I've got to fix myself. 01:20:22.704 --> 01:20:23.544 That's a good answer. 01:20:23.544 --> 01:20:24.424 I can't do it right now. 01:20:25.544 --> 01:20:29.994 But it's not that I'm not interested, it's not that this won't work out, it's 01:20:29.994 --> 01:20:32.904 just I can't do everything all at once. 01:20:33.504 --> 01:20:33.984 And that's 01:20:33.989 --> 01:20:34.494 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 01:20:34.974 --> 01:20:37.044 Let me put it on the list to be done. 01:20:37.354 --> 01:20:37.644 Yeah. 01:20:38.214 --> 01:20:39.384 Joy ONeil: Like, it, it can happen. 01:20:39.424 --> 01:20:42.214 You know, some, some other things have got to align and some other things 01:20:42.214 --> 01:20:46.084 have got to work out, but just keep in mind what's really important. 01:20:46.654 --> 01:20:46.954 Yeah. 01:20:48.364 --> 01:20:49.174 So how do you do it? 01:20:49.774 --> 01:20:51.304 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I gotta ride my ponies. 01:20:52.144 --> 01:20:59.299 And I do actually increasingly, yeah, I meditate and, prayer, meditation. 01:21:00.709 --> 01:21:05.589 You know, my, my earliest, all my earliest memories are conversations with God. 01:21:06.519 --> 01:21:10.419 And it's true that, you know, someone's listening and they think, oh, Ru but 01:21:10.419 --> 01:21:11.199 I didn't know you were Christian. 01:21:11.204 --> 01:21:12.729 It's like, well, I'm actually not really. 01:21:13.069 --> 01:21:14.899 but it doesn't mean that I don't believe in God. 01:21:15.269 --> 01:21:18.414 and it doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of the divine. 01:21:19.174 --> 01:21:20.524 but you can call it by different names. 01:21:20.524 --> 01:21:21.214 It doesn't matter. 01:21:21.214 --> 01:21:23.924 I don't think God minds particularly, doesn't wake up 01:21:23.924 --> 01:21:24.914 going, well, you call me wrong. 01:21:26.054 --> 01:21:29.054 I somehow don't think that's how divine thought process goes. 01:21:29.524 --> 01:21:34.114 But, but that, that feeling of being gra a lot of it for me is often about gratitude. 01:21:34.874 --> 01:21:36.909 Yeah, to turn my mind. 01:21:37.059 --> 01:21:40.869 And, and so if I meditate, it's easier for me to do that. 01:21:40.929 --> 01:21:44.409 And I've, I can use a ride, a trail ride as a meditation. 01:21:44.414 --> 01:21:46.389 I can use that as an opportunity for gratitude. 01:21:46.839 --> 01:21:49.579 Really just look around me, at nature. 01:21:50.699 --> 01:21:52.649 And be so thankful that I'm in it, you know? 01:21:53.189 --> 01:21:56.069 So I think, I think like you say, it's, you know, obviously one's children, 01:21:56.399 --> 01:21:59.159 but it's, it's these simple things. 01:21:59.669 --> 01:22:02.759 And of course we're also very lucky cuz we get to work and live with horses 01:22:03.179 --> 01:22:06.599 and, you know, that just going down to the barn, out to the field, and even 01:22:06.599 --> 01:22:11.669 just looking at them, you know, and just thinking, gosh, you know, how, how 01:22:11.669 --> 01:22:15.149 lucky am I to, to be able to do this? 01:22:15.259 --> 01:22:17.899 But yeah, I, I think as you say, reasonable expectations. 01:22:17.899 --> 01:22:21.259 I, I think I've learned to allow myself to burn out. 01:22:21.259 --> 01:22:25.069 I've learned, I've learned to not be freaked out and to know that 01:22:25.069 --> 01:22:28.309 that is a cycle that everybody goes through, like animals go through 01:22:28.309 --> 01:22:31.879 winter sleep and that actually it's cyclical in the course of a day. 01:22:31.884 --> 01:22:33.829 You know, one, one tends to dip. 01:22:34.204 --> 01:22:37.354 In the later afternoon, that might be a good time to meditate, a good 01:22:37.354 --> 01:22:39.274 time to take a nap if you can. 01:22:39.844 --> 01:22:41.044 And, he's, I never nap. 01:22:41.044 --> 01:22:41.734 I never do. 01:22:41.764 --> 01:22:43.594 But then well, well why not? 01:22:43.594 --> 01:22:48.274 Because then maybe I'll, I'll work better when I come back and, and watching my dad. 01:22:48.334 --> 01:22:55.249 My dad is 90 and, still going pretty strong, but I see when he lets himself 01:22:55.879 --> 01:23:01.289 not go strong, and I've been watching him that way, for years and thinking, 01:23:01.294 --> 01:23:04.709 you know, there's a lot to learn from, from just the way you organize your day. 01:23:05.439 --> 01:23:07.869 To let yourself go up and come down and go up and come down 01:23:07.869 --> 01:23:08.769 and not always push through. 01:23:09.649 --> 01:23:14.384 You are a push through most of us, I'm sure most listeners here are. 01:23:14.384 --> 01:23:19.424 And it, so the burnout factor, I think is, it's important just 01:23:19.424 --> 01:23:20.564 for us to think about because. 01:23:22.259 --> 01:23:23.909 Just given the demands of this kind of work. 01:23:23.909 --> 01:23:24.809 It's inevitable, I think. 01:23:25.349 --> 01:23:25.529 and 01:23:25.529 --> 01:23:26.369 Joy ONeil: then never ending. 01:23:26.729 --> 01:23:28.169 Like, it, it never ends. 01:23:28.169 --> 01:23:28.229 Yeah. 01:23:28.229 --> 01:23:30.869 It's 365 days a year, seven days a week. 01:23:30.899 --> 01:23:39.119 And if you don't carve out time and pace yourself, you're, you're 01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:42.599 not really doing right by anybody. 01:23:42.839 --> 01:23:45.819 And even when I watch, of course I'm not a horse person. 01:23:45.824 --> 01:23:50.349 I, I wouldn't pretend to be, but even watching your videos where 01:23:50.349 --> 01:23:54.909 you're training with a horse, you say, okay, I got to where I wanted. 01:23:55.329 --> 01:23:56.169 That's enough. 01:23:57.549 --> 01:24:02.139 We're gonna end right now and we'll come back later and pick back up where this is. 01:24:02.739 --> 01:24:09.309 So like, we have to treat ourselves in the same way that we would treat our horses. 01:24:10.389 --> 01:24:11.229 That's a very good point. 01:24:11.349 --> 01:24:13.719 Like, like you wouldn't, you wouldn't just keep pushing and 01:24:13.989 --> 01:24:15.189 pushing and pushing a horse. 01:24:16.344 --> 01:24:19.329 Because you know that if you give them time, that time to rest, or at least 01:24:19.329 --> 01:24:20.769 that's what you say in your videos, right? 01:24:21.129 --> 01:24:23.709 Like if you give them that time to rest Yeah. 01:24:23.739 --> 01:24:26.139 That the next time you go back, they're gonna get there 01:24:26.139 --> 01:24:27.219 and they're gonna be better. 01:24:27.399 --> 01:24:27.639 Yeah. 01:24:28.649 --> 01:24:30.099 Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, less is more. 01:24:30.279 --> 01:24:30.699 Always. 01:24:30.699 --> 01:24:30.939 Joy ONeil: Yeah. 01:24:31.029 --> 01:24:31.269 Less. 01:24:31.329 --> 01:24:31.719 Yeah. 01:24:31.809 --> 01:24:34.209 Like so treat yourself like you would your own horse. 01:24:34.209 --> 01:24:34.629 How's that? 01:24:34.629 --> 01:24:35.229 For the best advice? 01:24:35.939 --> 01:24:37.449 Rupert Isaacson: That's brilliant advice. 01:24:38.229 --> 01:24:40.339 Well, listen how you would A good horse. 01:24:40.899 --> 01:24:41.139 Yeah. 01:24:41.479 --> 01:24:42.139 Oh, watch 01:24:43.119 --> 01:24:46.959 Joy ONeil: if, if you're good at horses, like if you're good at horses, treat 01:24:46.959 --> 01:24:48.009 them how you would treat your horse. 01:24:48.969 --> 01:24:51.129 If you're a jerk that's not good with horses, don't treat 01:24:51.129 --> 01:24:51.739 them how you would treat that, 01:24:51.999 --> 01:24:53.059 Rupert Isaacson: but very good point. 01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:53.659 Yes. 01:24:53.739 --> 01:25:01.359 I was once told by a stump man who got me into writing in movies when I was in my 01:25:01.419 --> 01:25:06.339 early twenties at college, and he said to, he was an Irish guy called Bronco Mcla. 01:25:06.339 --> 01:25:08.994 He said, You can't love your horse. 01:25:08.994 --> 01:25:10.074 You must hate your horse. 01:25:10.134 --> 01:25:11.094 You must hate yours. 01:25:11.094 --> 01:25:13.884 I'm like thinking, God, Bronco, I never want to hate my horse. 01:25:13.884 --> 01:25:16.554 It's like, it's funny hearing you say that and it will make a great 01:25:16.554 --> 01:25:18.054 story, but that's not how I wanna go. 01:25:18.054 --> 01:25:18.354 No, no. 01:25:19.324 --> 01:25:21.634 and it's hilarious you saying that you're not a horse person. 01:25:21.634 --> 01:25:27.689 So for, for, for the listeners, you've probably gathered, that, joy is modest. 01:25:28.229 --> 01:25:30.809 The program that she runs also with her daughter Alexis, who is 01:25:30.809 --> 01:25:33.989 a very accomplished horsewoman and of course all the, the employees, 01:25:33.989 --> 01:25:36.029 it's, it's exemplary what they do. 01:25:36.299 --> 01:25:39.419 The lunging programs, the in-hand programs, the musing programs, the 01:25:39.424 --> 01:25:40.719 mental wellbeing for the horse. 01:25:41.039 --> 01:25:42.899 It's, it's, it's gold standard. 01:25:43.149 --> 01:25:45.099 And I would recommend people to go down there. 01:25:45.459 --> 01:25:46.869 So with that, I think. 01:25:47.309 --> 01:25:51.354 I'd like to let people know, or have you let people know, how can 01:25:51.354 --> 01:25:52.764 they get with you and learn more? 01:25:52.764 --> 01:25:54.504 There's a lot going on down at Rev Barn. 01:25:54.504 --> 01:25:56.514 There's, you've got, the polyvagal stuff. 01:25:56.514 --> 01:25:58.344 You've got the lifeman ship stuff. 01:25:58.584 --> 01:26:01.944 Obviously there's Horse Boy, but there's, there's more than that too. 01:26:01.944 --> 01:26:05.955 And the work that you do with, JC Dugard and her foundation, and 01:26:06.104 --> 01:26:09.164 there's, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of education and information 01:26:09.764 --> 01:26:11.144 available to people down there. 01:26:11.354 --> 01:26:12.884 How can they get in touch with you, joy? 01:26:14.604 --> 01:26:19.554 Joy ONeil: Our website is the best way to, to, I guess, email me if you 01:26:19.554 --> 01:26:23.604 just go to the red barn.org and if you fill out pretty much any of those 01:26:23.604 --> 01:26:27.564 forms on the, the website, there's, at the bottom of each page, there's 01:26:27.564 --> 01:26:29.934 a Join our database or learn more. 01:26:30.684 --> 01:26:31.034 So it's Red 01:26:31.034 --> 01:26:32.354 Rupert Isaacson: barn org. 01:26:32.974 --> 01:26:33.474 Red Barn. 01:26:33.684 --> 01:26:34.044 The 01:26:34.044 --> 01:26:34.794 Joy ONeil: red barn, 01:26:34.794 --> 01:26:35.544 Rupert Isaacson: t 01:26:35.544 --> 01:26:36.474 Joy ONeil: h e, red Barn. 01:26:37.434 --> 01:26:39.264 I know my southern accent comes out. 01:26:39.264 --> 01:26:42.174 The red barn.org. 01:26:42.984 --> 01:26:45.264 T h e r e d B A R 01:26:46.074 --> 01:26:46.374 Rupert Isaacson: NT org. 01:26:46.674 --> 01:26:47.484 Org Great. 01:26:47.484 --> 01:26:52.044 And can they come down seminars, learn stuff, be in touch 01:26:52.044 --> 01:26:53.204 with you guys educationally? 01:26:54.394 --> 01:26:54.684 Sure. 01:26:55.164 --> 01:26:55.734 Mentoring? 01:26:56.964 --> 01:26:58.104 Joy ONeil: Yeah, absolutely. 01:26:58.314 --> 01:27:02.574 We, I would, I always love to help anybody in any way that we can because so many 01:27:02.574 --> 01:27:06.624 people have helped us and I just feel like it's a great way to pay it forward. 01:27:06.624 --> 01:27:14.834 And, you know, when we, when we first started the barn, it was, I feel like just 01:27:14.834 --> 01:27:16.514 something that helped our own children. 01:27:16.514 --> 01:27:19.454 And I felt so fortunate and so lucky to have that opportunity. 01:27:19.994 --> 01:27:24.194 And I want to make my life goal or, you know, and I've thought about this 01:27:24.199 --> 01:27:27.844 a lot, especially after my diagnosis, like, what do you want to be known for? 01:27:28.754 --> 01:27:29.055 And I think. 01:27:30.839 --> 01:27:33.809 I mean, there are lots of things, but just professionally, I want to 01:27:33.809 --> 01:27:40.889 be known as someone that helped make it possible for children, especially 01:27:40.894 --> 01:27:44.099 with physical, cognitive and emotional disabilities, to have the chance to 01:27:44.099 --> 01:27:46.439 work with horses to improve their lives. 01:27:46.499 --> 01:27:52.229 And people are more than welcome to come and, and see what we have learned. 01:27:52.589 --> 01:27:56.039 But the first advice I always give people is to go to your website and 01:27:56.044 --> 01:28:00.179 to go through, and, and look at it because I, I really do believe that 01:28:00.329 --> 01:28:04.829 a, a good foundation or a knowledge in movement method and how the horses are 01:28:04.834 --> 01:28:11.279 treated and how people learn and their brains like, sets the tone and for all 01:28:11.279 --> 01:28:12.689 the other things that they can learn. 01:28:12.689 --> 01:28:13.979 And, you know, they might have a. 01:28:14.614 --> 01:28:17.714 A special interest and want to learn, learn also some 01:28:17.714 --> 01:28:19.394 other tools to have in that. 01:28:19.874 --> 01:28:22.824 But, they're welcome to call me, but I'm just gonna tell 'em to go back to 01:28:22.829 --> 01:28:25.704 Rupert Isaacson: you so well, we'll back, we'll them back and forth. 01:28:25.944 --> 01:28:26.934 That is very kind. 01:28:27.174 --> 01:28:31.314 For those who do wanna contact us, yes, remember, it's if you Movement Method 01:28:31.319 --> 01:28:39.354 Horse by Method, Athena, it's ntls.co, not.com, the other one, co ntls.co. 01:28:39.804 --> 01:28:43.674 And if people are interested in the horse training and personal development 01:28:43.679 --> 01:28:46.374 programs, that's long ride home.com. 01:28:47.104 --> 01:28:52.854 However, do go to the red barn.org, and do contact, joy and her team. 01:28:53.244 --> 01:28:57.534 There's a ton to learn and there's not many people, not many places that 01:28:57.534 --> 01:29:00.024 bring it together so holistically. 01:29:00.614 --> 01:29:04.694 While maintaining this level of service, it's a lot of clients. 01:29:04.874 --> 01:29:06.994 It's also very physically beautiful. 01:29:07.699 --> 01:29:10.789 I think a lot of people don't realize how beautiful Alabama is till they 01:29:10.789 --> 01:29:15.409 get down there and those foothills are the Appalachians that are up 01:29:15.409 --> 01:29:17.269 there in that Birmingham area. 01:29:17.269 --> 01:29:18.799 So it's a very special landscape. 01:29:19.319 --> 01:29:24.859 And you mentioned that place down by the water where, an cow would go and pray. 01:29:25.039 --> 01:29:26.149 I've been to that place. 01:29:26.219 --> 01:29:29.219 I know, I know exactly that river crossing it is sublime. 01:29:29.699 --> 01:29:31.889 So yeah. 01:29:32.009 --> 01:29:34.859 I would recommend going there to learn. 01:29:35.379 --> 01:29:38.919 They're very, very modest, but they have an awful lot to teach. 01:29:39.589 --> 01:29:42.729 So Joy, I can't wait till the next time I'm down there. 01:29:43.429 --> 01:29:44.149 Hopefully November. 01:29:44.149 --> 01:29:44.329 Thank you. 01:29:44.909 --> 01:29:45.480 I would love it. 01:29:46.049 --> 01:29:48.294 And you know, thank you so much for coming on. 01:29:49.389 --> 01:29:49.689 Well thank, 01:29:49.899 --> 01:29:50.649 Joy ONeil: we've learned a lot. 01:29:50.649 --> 01:29:53.769 Thank you for giving the chance and thank you for being such an important 01:29:53.769 --> 01:29:57.879 part of everything that happens here at the Barn and then also to me personally. 01:29:58.029 --> 01:29:58.509 Thank you. 01:29:58.779 --> 01:29:59.469 Rupert Isaacson: You are sweet. 01:29:59.529 --> 01:30:00.429 Well, likewise. 01:30:01.119 --> 01:30:01.889 And, good. 01:30:02.219 --> 01:30:03.929 I will do a follow up. 01:30:04.589 --> 01:30:08.339 So what Joy doesn't know is that this is actually, she just gotta come on again. 01:30:08.609 --> 01:30:12.929 So, everyone send in your questions to her, your questions about polyvagal, 01:30:13.379 --> 01:30:17.609 your questions about life, manship your questions about the heart 01:30:17.614 --> 01:30:20.919 stuff, your questions about how all these things relate together. 01:30:21.219 --> 01:30:25.269 And I will give them to joy, and Joy will answer them and we'll pull 01:30:25.269 --> 01:30:26.799 her back on kicking and screaming. 01:30:27.219 --> 01:30:30.699 Put her back up here and she'll answer your questions directly. 01:30:31.469 --> 01:30:31.959 Alright. 01:30:32.199 --> 01:30:34.059 Joy ONeil: May I'll be better for next time, cuz I'll 01:30:34.059 --> 01:30:35.049 know what the questions are. 01:30:35.049 --> 01:30:35.529 How's that happen? 01:30:35.534 --> 01:30:36.039 Exactly, 01:30:36.159 --> 01:30:36.819 Rupert Isaacson: exactly. 01:30:36.969 --> 01:30:38.439 Maybe if we, if we're good to you. 01:30:38.709 --> 01:30:39.009 Okay. 01:30:39.014 --> 01:30:39.309 Yeah. 01:30:39.629 --> 01:30:40.119 Alright. 01:30:40.539 --> 01:30:42.559 Joy ONeil: The deer in the headlights, like, oh my gosh. 01:30:44.514 --> 01:30:45.114 Rupert Isaacson: Give you a paramount. 01:30:45.494 --> 01:30:45.784 Okay. 01:30:46.584 --> 01:30:47.424 Thank you. 01:30:47.544 --> 01:30:48.954 Thank you so much, joy. 01:30:49.164 --> 01:30:53.064 I've, I've enjoyed it immensely as always, and we'll see you again soon. 01:30:53.069 --> 01:30:53.504 Joy ONeil: Y'all later. 01:30:53.964 --> 01:30:54.454 Bye-bye. 01:30:54.459 --> 01:30:55.344 Okay, bye. 01:30:55.523 --> 01:30:56.633 Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us. 01:30:56.663 --> 01:30:58.493 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:30:58.731 --> 01:31:03.771 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:31:03.771 --> 01:31:08.961 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:31:09.669 --> 01:31:14.317 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:31:14.317 --> 01:31:16.327 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:31:16.654 --> 01:31:20.404 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:31:20.404 --> 01:31:23.644 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:31:23.943 --> 01:31:27.993 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:31:27.993 --> 01:31:29.913 bring you and your horse joy. 01:31:30.449 --> 01:31:35.009 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:31:35.339 --> 01:31:36.269 See you on the next show. 01:31:36.682 --> 01:31:39.372 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.