1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:04,050 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Honest Money Show a big thanks to our sponsor. 2 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:07,710 Shop Bitcoin Australia for making today's episode possible. 3 00:00:12,177 --> 00:00:12,957 Anja: Greetings. 4 00:00:13,017 --> 00:00:15,497 Joining me today is Philipp from Lendasat. 5 00:00:15,517 --> 00:00:21,357 Philipp is a CEO and co-founder of this platform that offers Bitcoin backed loans. 6 00:00:21,597 --> 00:00:26,187 So essentially it's an online marketplace connecting lenders and borrowers. 7 00:00:26,547 --> 00:00:30,987 Uh, they provide the platform, they charge a small fee, and they basically 8 00:00:30,987 --> 00:00:34,947 ensure that everything, um, runs smoothly between the two players. 9 00:00:35,277 --> 00:00:36,567 Welcome to Honest Money Field. 10 00:00:37,597 --> 00:00:38,067 Philipp: Hey Anja. 11 00:00:38,067 --> 00:00:38,692 Thanks for having me. 12 00:00:39,807 --> 00:00:40,137 Anja: Yay. 13 00:00:40,677 --> 00:00:46,017 Um, so before we dive into, um, this, you know, talking about your platform, 14 00:00:46,017 --> 00:00:51,327 I did wanna take the moment to educate users or listeners I should say, on 15 00:00:51,327 --> 00:00:55,827 just a little bit just about Bitcoin backed lending in general and what 16 00:00:55,827 --> 00:00:59,577 some of the terminology, um, would need to be that they're aware of. 17 00:00:59,787 --> 00:01:02,997 Because we're gonna be talking about these things throughout the podcast and 18 00:01:03,237 --> 00:01:07,467 if they kind of have an understanding upfront might help, uh, smooth out that. 19 00:01:08,077 --> 00:01:10,627 So the first thing is the loan to value. 20 00:01:11,317 --> 00:01:16,717 Um, this, I guess people are already familiar with because it's used in 21 00:01:16,717 --> 00:01:20,677 real estate as well, but do you wanna maybe explain it in your words very 22 00:01:20,677 --> 00:01:23,302 simply what l loan to value LTV is. 23 00:01:24,357 --> 00:01:25,077 Philipp: Totally, totally. 24 00:01:25,077 --> 00:01:26,547 Maybe even take one step back. 25 00:01:26,607 --> 00:01:28,407 What is a Bitcoin backed loan? 26 00:01:28,467 --> 00:01:33,027 I mean, as the, the term already implies it is a loan against your Bitcoin. 27 00:01:33,117 --> 00:01:37,527 So you put up Bitcoin as a collateral, and then in return you receive 28 00:01:37,527 --> 00:01:39,297 cash or stable coins as a loan. 29 00:01:40,047 --> 00:01:46,857 Uh, the LTV, the loan to value ratio is the ratio between the amount you borrowed, 30 00:01:47,607 --> 00:01:51,732 plus the outstanding interest, like how much you really owe to the lender. 31 00:01:52,617 --> 00:01:54,687 Divided by the value of your collateral. 32 00:01:55,197 --> 00:02:02,307 So let's say you take a hundred K loan you own, you owe 10% interest, 33 00:02:03,027 --> 00:02:10,077 so 110 K is outstanding and then you put up 220 K worth of Bitcoin. 34 00:02:10,107 --> 00:02:16,107 Then your LTV is 50%, 110 divided by 220 is 50%. 35 00:02:17,397 --> 00:02:17,847 Anja: Great. 36 00:02:18,207 --> 00:02:20,397 And this one is going to be an easy one. 37 00:02:20,397 --> 00:02:24,237 Loan term essentially is the length of time the loan is active 38 00:02:24,237 --> 00:02:27,117 until it must be repaid easy one. 39 00:02:27,117 --> 00:02:28,167 Interest rate. 40 00:02:28,527 --> 00:02:32,967 Um, the cost of borrowing usually expressed as an annual percentage, 41 00:02:32,967 --> 00:02:36,052 but maybe do you wanna talk about how that works on your platform? 42 00:02:37,242 --> 00:02:37,722 Philipp: Yes. 43 00:02:37,722 --> 00:02:40,872 So there are two different ways of how interest rates can work. 44 00:02:41,172 --> 00:02:46,242 Um, the first one is you have bullet loans where you pay back the whole interest 45 00:02:46,362 --> 00:02:50,682 at maturity of your contract, meaning when the contract expires, you pay back 46 00:02:50,832 --> 00:02:52,332 the amount you borrowed, plus interest. 47 00:02:52,912 --> 00:02:57,652 So if you took a hundred k loan at a 10% for one year, you have to pay back 48 00:02:57,652 --> 00:03:04,672 at the end of the loan, 110 k. If the, there's another option, which is, we 49 00:03:04,672 --> 00:03:09,922 call it an interest only loan, where you have monthly installments to only pay 50 00:03:09,922 --> 00:03:15,142 back the interest, and then at maturity you pay back the, the remaining amount, 51 00:03:15,142 --> 00:03:18,472 meaning for this a hundred K loan you pay. 52 00:03:19,282 --> 00:03:22,192 Math is not correct, but around 1000 every month. 53 00:03:22,512 --> 00:03:26,622 And then at the end of the year, you pay back the remaining. 54 00:03:28,032 --> 00:03:28,392 Anja: Cool. 55 00:03:28,392 --> 00:03:29,172 I did not know that. 56 00:03:29,172 --> 00:03:29,862 That's awesome. 57 00:03:30,192 --> 00:03:33,012 Um, and then this is another easy one, collateral. 58 00:03:33,012 --> 00:03:37,482 So I like how in your, uh, FAQs on your website, you explain that this 59 00:03:37,482 --> 00:03:39,762 is just like pawning some gold. 60 00:03:40,032 --> 00:03:42,612 You know, if you have a gold watch and you wanna put that down as, 61 00:03:42,612 --> 00:03:44,262 as, as collateral, you can do that. 62 00:03:44,262 --> 00:03:48,972 This is just a digital version with Bitcoin, um, being used as collateral. 63 00:03:49,422 --> 00:03:50,832 Um, excellent important one. 64 00:03:51,432 --> 00:03:56,292 Margin call or the liquid liquidation threshold, the point 65 00:03:56,322 --> 00:04:00,252 in which lend the lender may require you to put more collateral. 66 00:04:00,252 --> 00:04:02,682 And I know this is a very big topic. 67 00:04:03,402 --> 00:04:05,292 Do you wanna talk about liquidation? 68 00:04:06,267 --> 00:04:06,837 Philipp: Rather not. 69 00:04:06,987 --> 00:04:07,107 No. 70 00:04:07,257 --> 00:04:07,767 Just kidding. 71 00:04:09,597 --> 00:04:12,117 Um, yes, that's a very, very important one. 72 00:04:12,207 --> 00:04:17,397 Um, so related to the LTV, the loan to value ratio, you have to keep a 73 00:04:17,397 --> 00:04:22,617 certain threshold of your LTV at all times to prevent getting liquidated. 74 00:04:22,622 --> 00:04:22,772 Uh. 75 00:04:23,022 --> 00:04:26,382 And that depends completely on the different platforms. 76 00:04:26,742 --> 00:04:31,992 On our platform, usually you start off with a 50% LTV, meaning you over 77 00:04:31,992 --> 00:04:35,052 collateralized by twice by two x. 78 00:04:35,082 --> 00:04:39,012 So for a hundred K loan you have to put up 200 K worth of Bitcoin. 79 00:04:39,822 --> 00:04:43,242 And then the the margin call or the. 80 00:04:43,602 --> 00:04:47,952 Um, the thresholds you have to look out for is if the Bitcoin price price 81 00:04:47,952 --> 00:04:52,722 drops by a certain percentage, then you might get a margin call, and that's 82 00:04:52,932 --> 00:04:55,662 first, that's before you get liquidated. 83 00:04:56,112 --> 00:05:00,852 So on our platform, we have a margin call at 80% LTV. 84 00:05:00,912 --> 00:05:08,502 So if the price drops by roughly 35 to 40%, then you are at 80% LTV. 85 00:05:08,532 --> 00:05:11,922 You get an email and if you have a telegram. 86 00:05:12,612 --> 00:05:16,422 Connect, uh, telegram pod activated, you get a telegram notification 87 00:05:16,422 --> 00:05:20,232 saying, Hey, please consider topping up your collateral. 88 00:05:21,372 --> 00:05:25,542 And then we have a second margin call at 85%. 89 00:05:25,542 --> 00:05:30,822 So if the price drops by roughly another 5%, you get another warning 90 00:05:30,882 --> 00:05:32,592 saying, Hey, it's very critical. 91 00:05:33,192 --> 00:05:37,902 You are close to getting liquidated and then at 90% you 92 00:05:37,902 --> 00:05:39,702 can get liquidated by the lender. 93 00:05:39,792 --> 00:05:40,002 Anja: Yeah. 94 00:05:40,212 --> 00:05:40,512 Yeah. 95 00:05:40,602 --> 00:05:41,232 And that's it. 96 00:05:41,232 --> 00:05:43,362 That's very important to understand. 97 00:05:43,362 --> 00:05:47,532 So, um, I guess the last one I've got on my list here is also the 98 00:05:47,532 --> 00:05:49,302 custody or the control model. 99 00:05:49,662 --> 00:05:53,952 It's understanding who actually holds the Bitcoin while the loan is 100 00:05:53,952 --> 00:05:55,842 active, and that's very important. 101 00:05:56,607 --> 00:06:00,477 Philipp: That is, I think, the most important part besides the interest 102 00:06:00,477 --> 00:06:03,087 rate, but it's probably even more important than the interest rate. 103 00:06:04,497 --> 00:06:06,417 How are your Bitcoins being stored? 104 00:06:06,447 --> 00:06:07,257 Are they safe? 105 00:06:07,257 --> 00:06:09,027 Are being the re ated. 106 00:06:09,327 --> 00:06:12,057 So that's something you really want to get clarity on. 107 00:06:12,957 --> 00:06:18,567 Um, custodial platforms, usually they are in some custodial setting, maybe 108 00:06:18,567 --> 00:06:24,837 in a multi-site, maybe at a certified custodian like Bitco or Thea or Casa. 109 00:06:26,202 --> 00:06:31,602 On our platform, we went with a very simple two to three multisig, meaning the 110 00:06:31,662 --> 00:06:36,882 borrower has a key, the lender has a key, and the platform has a key, and you need 111 00:06:37,002 --> 00:06:40,122 always two people to sign the contract. 112 00:06:40,572 --> 00:06:44,172 And that means in the happy case, the borrower payback in time, 113 00:06:44,202 --> 00:06:45,822 including everything he owed. 114 00:06:46,317 --> 00:06:50,187 Then the borrower and the lender sign and the borrower gets back a collateral. 115 00:06:50,697 --> 00:06:54,957 If there is, however, a dispute, meaning, for example, the borrower 116 00:06:54,957 --> 00:07:01,287 didn't pay back in time, then we as the platform can jump in as a mediator and, 117 00:07:01,377 --> 00:07:06,717 um, help the lender to retrieve the funds, or alternatively, the borrower 118 00:07:06,717 --> 00:07:08,547 paid back, but the lender disappeared. 119 00:07:09,162 --> 00:07:10,332 Died away, whatever. 120 00:07:10,722 --> 00:07:13,422 Um, then we can also help to recover the funds. 121 00:07:14,172 --> 00:07:15,102 Anja: Yep, yep. 122 00:07:15,222 --> 00:07:17,142 That's, yeah, that's very important. 123 00:07:17,172 --> 00:07:20,592 And yeah, I guess we can start now. 124 00:07:20,982 --> 00:07:25,812 I thought it would be interesting to talk about the like end-to-end journey, um, 125 00:07:25,812 --> 00:07:29,652 that someone would typically go through on the platform so they can understand. 126 00:07:30,387 --> 00:07:32,457 How it might potentially look. 127 00:07:32,487 --> 00:07:36,927 I know one of the speeches that I listened to you, I think it was at 128 00:07:36,927 --> 00:07:41,187 parks, you said that one of the best things you can do is start out small 129 00:07:41,397 --> 00:07:45,807 and just test out the journey before you start borrowing a larger amount. 130 00:07:45,807 --> 00:07:50,067 So maybe we can just do a virtual version of like a walkthrough. 131 00:07:50,067 --> 00:07:52,767 So I have a girlfriend who. 132 00:07:53,372 --> 00:08:01,802 Once a spend $30,000 on a very lavish holiday, um, to Egypt, and she's got some 133 00:08:01,802 --> 00:08:07,442 Bitcoin, she would rather get a loan, um, overselling it because that's selling 134 00:08:07,442 --> 00:08:09,362 her Bitcoin triggers capital gains. 135 00:08:09,782 --> 00:08:12,242 Um, she also doesn't wanna part with her Bitcoin because. 136 00:08:13,057 --> 00:08:13,547 Bitcoin. 137 00:08:14,382 --> 00:08:19,422 So if she was to use your platform, what is kind of like the first 138 00:08:19,422 --> 00:08:20,922 step that she needs to do? 139 00:08:20,922 --> 00:08:21,972 Is she eligible? 140 00:08:21,972 --> 00:08:27,072 Is this a global globally access, uh, accessible platform? 141 00:08:28,332 --> 00:08:28,632 Philipp: Totally. 142 00:08:28,782 --> 00:08:29,082 Yes. 143 00:08:29,112 --> 00:08:33,612 Uh, I think you started off already with the right, right assumption that she, 144 00:08:33,612 --> 00:08:35,592 your girlfriend has a need for cash. 145 00:08:36,237 --> 00:08:40,977 Meaning she couldn't or she wouldn't afford this trip to eat chip otherwise, 146 00:08:41,607 --> 00:08:45,777 uh, if you don't need cash, then don't borrow against your Bitcoin. 147 00:08:45,837 --> 00:08:49,257 So you really need to have this, this need of tapping into the 148 00:08:49,257 --> 00:08:52,377 liquidity of your Bitcoin and you don't want to sell right now. 149 00:08:53,037 --> 00:08:55,977 The reason why you wouldn't want to sell right now is you said it 150 00:08:55,977 --> 00:08:58,197 already is no capital gains tax. 151 00:08:58,797 --> 00:09:02,097 Uh, that's in many jurisdiction, particularly in Australia, 152 00:09:02,097 --> 00:09:03,327 can hit you really hard. 153 00:09:04,017 --> 00:09:08,187 Um, but also it keeps you the upside of your Bitcoin. 154 00:09:08,367 --> 00:09:14,457 Like if you take a one year loan and you consider postponing the sale, selling of 155 00:09:14,457 --> 00:09:19,407 your Bitcoin, just by one year Bitcoin might appreciate by another 14, 15% 156 00:09:19,407 --> 00:09:21,447 or something, or what is time period. 157 00:09:21,807 --> 00:09:23,817 So that's, these are the two upsides. 158 00:09:25,212 --> 00:09:28,692 There are a few more, depending on your personal situation. 159 00:09:28,722 --> 00:09:33,162 For example, if you would consider also taking a cash loan, 160 00:09:33,162 --> 00:09:35,142 a personal loan from a bank. 161 00:09:35,652 --> 00:09:40,962 Some people just can't do that or, um, don't want to do that because 162 00:09:40,962 --> 00:09:46,452 you have to jump through all kinds of hoops of KYC proving what your income 163 00:09:46,452 --> 00:09:50,742 is, uh, what's your shoe size, what's your blood type like, I don't know 164 00:09:50,767 --> 00:09:52,752 what, what they're all asking you. 165 00:09:53,112 --> 00:09:53,742 Um. 166 00:09:54,147 --> 00:09:59,187 So on Bitcoin backed loans, you usually just rock up with your Bitcoin, 167 00:09:59,187 --> 00:10:04,467 say, Hey look, I have this amount in BTC and I need this amount of cash. 168 00:10:04,947 --> 00:10:08,457 And depending on the platform, no further questions are being asked. 169 00:10:09,162 --> 00:10:15,462 Some platforms have KYC requirements, um, particularly the custodial ones. 170 00:10:15,522 --> 00:10:22,032 We, because the regulator requires them to do KYC and AML checks on our platforms, we 171 00:10:22,032 --> 00:10:26,172 don't have these KYC requirements because we don't have custody over the funds. 172 00:10:26,682 --> 00:10:31,452 Uh, we basically act as a bulletin board, a blackboard where the borrowers. 173 00:10:31,532 --> 00:10:37,382 Post, um, requests or the lenders create offers and then we just 174 00:10:37,382 --> 00:10:38,137 match them with each other. 175 00:10:38,657 --> 00:10:38,777 I. 176 00:10:39,792 --> 00:10:40,392 Anja: Nice. 177 00:10:40,452 --> 00:10:40,872 Nice. 178 00:10:40,872 --> 00:10:44,442 So in terms of creating an account, what do I need? 179 00:10:44,532 --> 00:10:45,882 Philipp: That is a good question. 180 00:10:45,912 --> 00:10:50,202 Right now, the most minimal form is an email address. 181 00:10:50,322 --> 00:10:54,912 Um, but we will change even that so that all you need is some form of pub 182 00:10:54,912 --> 00:10:57,342 key, meaning you just say, Hey, um. 183 00:10:57,937 --> 00:11:00,787 You take your hardware wallet and say, this is your identity. 184 00:11:00,787 --> 00:11:03,247 And to log in, you just need to sign a simple message. 185 00:11:03,937 --> 00:11:07,957 Uh, the email address is a convenience feature so that you can receive 186 00:11:07,987 --> 00:11:13,057 emails, but it's not no actual requirement to have an email address. 187 00:11:13,057 --> 00:11:17,467 So you just need to be able to log in, maybe log in by noster would be possible, 188 00:11:17,467 --> 00:11:19,237 or log in with your lightning note. 189 00:11:19,947 --> 00:11:20,667 Could be an option. 190 00:11:21,477 --> 00:11:24,837 Um, but right now you need an email address and a password. 191 00:11:25,617 --> 00:11:25,887 Anja: Yep. 192 00:11:26,037 --> 00:11:26,607 Awesome. 193 00:11:26,967 --> 00:11:27,387 Awesome. 194 00:11:27,387 --> 00:11:32,997 So once I'm in the platform is my next step to essentially search for lenders 195 00:11:32,997 --> 00:11:34,467 and have a look at what's out there. 196 00:11:35,832 --> 00:11:40,632 Philipp: Yes, I would recommend one more step before, so it's a non-custodial 197 00:11:40,632 --> 00:11:45,642 platform, which means we generate on, on a client side, your browser generates a seed 198 00:11:45,642 --> 00:11:48,042 phrase for you which you need to back up. 199 00:11:48,252 --> 00:11:52,602 So before you even take a loan, make sure to back up that seed phrase, 200 00:11:52,602 --> 00:11:57,432 because that's your way to recover the funds after you took a loan. 201 00:11:57,432 --> 00:11:58,422 If something goes down, 202 00:11:59,742 --> 00:12:01,782 Anja: yes, that's a very step, 203 00:12:03,367 --> 00:12:03,587 Philipp: yes. 204 00:12:03,987 --> 00:12:07,347 See, you have no idea how many people don't do that even though 205 00:12:07,347 --> 00:12:08,517 we actually show a warning. 206 00:12:09,927 --> 00:12:09,937 Anja: Yeah. 207 00:12:09,972 --> 00:12:10,647 Oh yeah. 208 00:12:10,647 --> 00:12:11,217 Okay. 209 00:12:11,277 --> 00:12:11,577 Yep. 210 00:12:11,787 --> 00:12:12,717 That, that's interesting. 211 00:12:12,717 --> 00:12:16,737 So back up your seed phrase people back up your seed phrase. 212 00:12:17,037 --> 00:12:17,367 Philipp: Yes. 213 00:12:17,367 --> 00:12:19,407 Anja: And is there a way to test it as well? 214 00:12:20,757 --> 00:12:21,747 Philipp: Um, yes. 215 00:12:21,807 --> 00:12:25,917 So we have a cool tool we call the Doomsday software. 216 00:12:26,562 --> 00:12:31,572 Which is a, a tool meant for the case where we disappear as a platform 217 00:12:31,842 --> 00:12:35,532 where letting us, that maybe was shut down by the regulator or all 218 00:12:35,532 --> 00:12:38,892 our founders and team members died off or something, whatever happened, 219 00:12:40,992 --> 00:12:46,997 uh, then you still, as the borrower want to have an option to recover your funds. 220 00:12:48,117 --> 00:12:50,397 The Doomsday software is exactly for that. 221 00:12:50,397 --> 00:12:54,267 So you put in your seed phrase plus some additional backup data you get on 222 00:12:54,267 --> 00:12:55,857 your con when you open the contract. 223 00:12:56,517 --> 00:13:02,187 And we also have a unique nsec generated for you and for the lender. 224 00:13:02,457 --> 00:13:06,747 So there is a way for you to communicate outside of our platform 225 00:13:07,197 --> 00:13:08,787 and then you can recover the funds. 226 00:13:10,897 --> 00:13:17,917 You, um, to, to really fully end to end test the flow of your seed phrase, uh, 227 00:13:17,917 --> 00:13:20,017 you would need to take a very small loan. 228 00:13:21,847 --> 00:13:22,207 Anja: Okay. 229 00:13:22,297 --> 00:13:23,857 No, that's, that's good to know. 230 00:13:23,947 --> 00:13:26,317 Um, I love how casually morbid you are. 231 00:13:27,037 --> 00:13:28,207 Like, do doom stay. 232 00:13:30,037 --> 00:13:30,892 Um, okay. 233 00:13:31,027 --> 00:13:31,237 Oh yeah. 234 00:13:31,237 --> 00:13:31,687 Philipp: Yes. 235 00:13:31,687 --> 00:13:33,037 It's very important in the space. 236 00:13:34,497 --> 00:13:38,847 Like this comes from the doomsday of block five, FTX, uh, Mount Cox, uh, 237 00:13:38,847 --> 00:13:40,227 Celsius, whatever they shut down. 238 00:13:40,287 --> 00:13:40,347 Yeah. 239 00:13:40,347 --> 00:13:44,607 And for users, a has no way to recover the funds. 240 00:13:44,907 --> 00:13:46,557 It's just like, Hey, sorry mate. 241 00:13:46,557 --> 00:13:49,167 You can't withdraw your funds anymore. 242 00:13:49,227 --> 00:13:53,037 And with this tool, it's actually not hosted by us neither. 243 00:13:53,547 --> 00:13:58,287 Um, it's currently hosted on GitHub pages, but you can download it and run 244 00:13:58,287 --> 00:14:00,417 it yourself on your desktop or machine. 245 00:14:01,422 --> 00:14:01,992 Anja: Love it. 246 00:14:02,352 --> 00:14:02,832 Love it. 247 00:14:03,252 --> 00:14:07,032 Um, okay, so we've gone through the very important step of backing 248 00:14:07,032 --> 00:14:11,292 up your seed phrase, and when you're searching for lenders, what 249 00:14:11,292 --> 00:14:12,887 information can you typically see? 250 00:14:13,347 --> 00:14:13,767 Is it like. 251 00:14:14,682 --> 00:14:16,932 Different interest rates and 252 00:14:17,082 --> 00:14:17,382 Philipp: yeah. 253 00:14:17,622 --> 00:14:21,012 So based on what you're looking for, usually you have some idea 254 00:14:21,012 --> 00:14:22,272 of how much you want to borrow. 255 00:14:22,692 --> 00:14:27,822 Um, I and for how long you basically put in these two parameters, but the, 256 00:14:27,822 --> 00:14:31,992 the difference between the lenders is, um, the amounts, how much you can 257 00:14:31,992 --> 00:14:35,832 borrow, the interest rates, how much you're going to pay, and for how long. 258 00:14:36,582 --> 00:14:41,292 These are the three main arguments a, um, a lender will provide. 259 00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:48,342 And then you see, you also see on our platform whether this is an um, uh, 260 00:14:48,432 --> 00:14:50,712 I think we call it a vetted lender. 261 00:14:50,742 --> 00:14:55,662 So we are working together with a few individuals and institutions who we 262 00:14:56,172 --> 00:14:58,452 basically KYC, that know very well. 263 00:14:58,847 --> 00:15:02,657 And we just give them a star so they're a bit more trustworthy and reliable. 264 00:15:03,167 --> 00:15:07,217 Um, but you also see if a lender is new to the platform and like you see 265 00:15:07,217 --> 00:15:08,777 how many contracts they did in total. 266 00:15:09,767 --> 00:15:10,067 Anja: Yeah. 267 00:15:10,752 --> 00:15:13,932 That's a really good point, and I'm gonna pivot a little bit. 268 00:15:14,292 --> 00:15:20,172 Um, this might be more like the later steps of managing, um, the ongoing loan, 269 00:15:20,172 --> 00:15:24,072 but now that you've said it, I'm afraid if I don't understand now, I'll forget. 270 00:15:24,372 --> 00:15:29,892 But like, how much trust is required if you were to use a new lender 271 00:15:29,892 --> 00:15:33,762 on the, on the platform and, um. 272 00:15:34,252 --> 00:15:36,802 You are borrowing only a small amount, but you obviously you don't wanna 273 00:15:36,802 --> 00:15:38,752 part with your Bitcoin at any amount. 274 00:15:39,832 --> 00:15:43,672 Um, what mechanisms are in place to, to protect you essentially, 275 00:15:43,672 --> 00:15:45,322 even if you are using a complete new 276 00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:47,182 Philipp: Yes. 277 00:15:47,302 --> 00:15:52,972 So at this point there is slight risk for the borrower not to lose funds, but 278 00:15:52,972 --> 00:15:56,452 there is an a risk of missing the term. 279 00:15:56,992 --> 00:15:57,442 Um. 280 00:15:57,987 --> 00:15:58,557 I'm missing the word. 281 00:15:58,737 --> 00:16:02,727 So the, the way how it works is you, from the platform, let's say there's 282 00:16:02,727 --> 00:16:04,607 a lender, let's just call him Philipp. 283 00:16:04,737 --> 00:16:06,117 He's very new to the platform. 284 00:16:06,657 --> 00:16:09,717 And you as the borrower say, Hey, I want to take a loan from 285 00:16:09,717 --> 00:16:12,447 you, Philipp, and I approve it. 286 00:16:12,927 --> 00:16:16,587 Um, but I have no intention to ever give you the money. 287 00:16:17,217 --> 00:16:20,097 Then you have to lock up the funds first, your Bitcoin. 288 00:16:20,457 --> 00:16:24,987 So a multisig will be generated between you, the platform, and um. 289 00:16:25,677 --> 00:16:25,977 Me. 290 00:16:26,007 --> 00:16:27,567 Okay, that's weird because I'm the platform. 291 00:16:27,807 --> 00:16:32,007 But then you as the borrower have to deposit the Bitcoin. 292 00:16:32,187 --> 00:16:34,437 And now me as the lender, I never move forward. 293 00:16:34,767 --> 00:16:36,237 I just disappear. 294 00:16:36,237 --> 00:16:37,197 Don't react anymore. 295 00:16:37,677 --> 00:16:40,617 Now you provided your Bitcoin, but you didn't get any loan from it. 296 00:16:40,887 --> 00:16:45,747 Uh, there is no risk in for you to lose the funds. 297 00:16:45,777 --> 00:16:47,457 It's just very annoying for you. 298 00:16:47,487 --> 00:16:51,297 Um, you have to wait 24 hours before you can do another on chain 299 00:16:51,297 --> 00:16:52,462 transaction and recover your funds. 300 00:16:53,472 --> 00:16:53,862 Anja: Okay. 301 00:16:53,922 --> 00:16:55,212 So it's not terrible. 302 00:16:55,212 --> 00:16:56,502 It's just inconvenient. 303 00:16:57,012 --> 00:16:57,942 Philipp: It's inconvenient, yeah. 304 00:16:58,902 --> 00:16:59,502 Anja: Okay, cool. 305 00:16:59,502 --> 00:17:00,132 Opportunity 306 00:17:00,132 --> 00:17:00,402 Philipp: cost. 307 00:17:00,432 --> 00:17:01,962 That's the term I was looking for. 308 00:17:02,797 --> 00:17:02,997 Excellent. 309 00:17:03,157 --> 00:17:07,152 'cause you, you might have to wait for 24 hours and maybe you really need the 310 00:17:07,152 --> 00:17:12,372 money for something and you can't use the same collateral to take a different loan. 311 00:17:13,152 --> 00:17:13,512 Anja: Yep. 312 00:17:13,602 --> 00:17:13,902 Yep. 313 00:17:13,932 --> 00:17:14,232 Okay. 314 00:17:14,232 --> 00:17:15,882 That's a really good, good point. 315 00:17:16,392 --> 00:17:21,012 Um, then, okay, so now we're at the step of, we. 316 00:17:21,552 --> 00:17:23,982 Applying for a loan, we found a lender. 317 00:17:24,012 --> 00:17:25,272 We wanna go ahead. 318 00:17:25,632 --> 00:17:26,112 What do we do? 319 00:17:27,672 --> 00:17:28,062 Philipp: Yes. 320 00:17:28,062 --> 00:17:31,962 So you just say, Hey, um, I want to take this loan with 321 00:17:31,962 --> 00:17:33,432 this amount for this duration. 322 00:17:33,432 --> 00:17:36,402 So usually the lenders have a range of what they offer. 323 00:17:36,492 --> 00:17:41,892 They say between 1000, a hundred thousand for between six months and 12 months. 324 00:17:41,892 --> 00:17:45,372 And you just say exactly what you want and some lenders. 325 00:17:46,027 --> 00:17:49,927 Uh, particularly the vetted ones have auto approval on, others have to go 326 00:17:49,927 --> 00:17:51,667 through a manual, manual approval. 327 00:17:51,697 --> 00:17:56,587 Like they literally get an email saying, Ania is looking for borrow 328 00:17:56,737 --> 00:17:58,957 from you a hundred K for 12 months. 329 00:17:59,527 --> 00:18:01,327 You're willing to accept that. 330 00:18:01,387 --> 00:18:03,307 Do you actually have the cash available? 331 00:18:03,847 --> 00:18:08,827 So this is a step to filter out non-responsive lenders. 332 00:18:09,007 --> 00:18:13,357 So I, I have to, the lender has to do an active step there. 333 00:18:14,667 --> 00:18:20,637 And then once he approved, I said earlier, the platform takes a public 334 00:18:20,637 --> 00:18:25,587 key from each person, from you, from the lender and from the platform, and 335 00:18:25,587 --> 00:18:27,477 then generates a multi-six out of this. 336 00:18:28,077 --> 00:18:29,502 And then the next step is. 337 00:18:30,477 --> 00:18:33,357 Actually, when you take the loan, sorry, you also have to say 338 00:18:33,357 --> 00:18:34,917 where you want to get the loan. 339 00:18:35,187 --> 00:18:36,537 We didn't talk about that earlier. 340 00:18:36,747 --> 00:18:39,387 It's actually another very important point. 341 00:18:39,387 --> 00:18:42,717 When you're looking for a loan, what is it you're actually borrowing? 342 00:18:43,197 --> 00:18:48,657 And on our platform you can borrow stable coins, USDC, USDT on various 343 00:18:48,657 --> 00:18:51,927 different platforms, but also some fiat. 344 00:18:52,227 --> 00:18:57,057 Um, as, as of today we have Swiss Franc, we have Euros, and we have USD. 345 00:18:57,417 --> 00:18:59,637 We do not have Australian dollars today. 346 00:19:00,687 --> 00:19:04,827 But, um, anyways, whatever offer you pick, it usually says, Hey, 347 00:19:04,827 --> 00:19:07,587 I'm offering USTC, offering USTT. 348 00:19:08,667 --> 00:19:14,367 You have to be happy to accept that, um, stablecoin and that you 349 00:19:14,367 --> 00:19:16,812 have to provide an address where you want to get the stablecoin. 350 00:19:17,552 --> 00:19:17,772 Anja: Yep. 351 00:19:18,657 --> 00:19:18,927 Yep. 352 00:19:19,857 --> 00:19:20,517 Very good. 353 00:19:20,607 --> 00:19:22,557 That was an important, uh, topics. 354 00:19:23,427 --> 00:19:25,047 Um, we're sorry. 355 00:19:25,047 --> 00:19:28,647 We're now at the step of applying for a loan covered. 356 00:19:30,527 --> 00:19:35,877 We've covered the part where we reach out to, we select the duration and 357 00:19:35,877 --> 00:19:39,087 the amount, and it's locked up away. 358 00:19:39,177 --> 00:19:39,597 Sorry. 359 00:19:39,627 --> 00:19:41,457 We've deposited collateral. 360 00:19:41,457 --> 00:19:42,027 Yes. 361 00:19:42,507 --> 00:19:43,257 Have we done that? 362 00:19:43,257 --> 00:19:43,467 Yep. 363 00:19:43,492 --> 00:19:43,782 Okay. 364 00:19:44,247 --> 00:19:44,517 Philipp: Yes. 365 00:19:44,667 --> 00:19:44,937 Yes. 366 00:19:45,117 --> 00:19:49,587 So you get an on chain address and you send the money, and our platform 367 00:19:49,587 --> 00:19:51,717 currently requires a single confirmation. 368 00:19:51,717 --> 00:19:55,557 I mean, it's up to the lender to maybe wait a little bit longer. 369 00:19:55,917 --> 00:19:58,167 There is no automatic disbursement. 370 00:19:58,167 --> 00:20:02,217 So the lender will receive a confirmation email or notification on 371 00:20:02,217 --> 00:20:04,047 Telegram saying, Hey, your borrower. 372 00:20:04,752 --> 00:20:05,982 Deposited the money. 373 00:20:06,642 --> 00:20:07,992 Um, here's the address. 374 00:20:07,992 --> 00:20:08,862 There's a transaction. 375 00:20:08,862 --> 00:20:14,292 You can verify it on chain, and then it's the lender's turn to disperse 376 00:20:14,292 --> 00:20:19,032 the funds and he just sends you the stable requirements directly or does 377 00:20:19,032 --> 00:20:24,312 a bank transfer and then happy times, um, you can go on your trip to Egypt. 378 00:20:26,262 --> 00:20:26,802 Anja: Love that. 379 00:20:27,192 --> 00:20:27,942 I love that. 380 00:20:28,182 --> 00:20:32,262 Um, and did I see as well on your, on the platform, you're 381 00:20:32,262 --> 00:20:34,152 also able to get a Visa card? 382 00:20:34,632 --> 00:20:37,062 Philipp: Um, yes, unfortunately not anymore. 383 00:20:37,967 --> 00:20:38,117 Okay. 384 00:20:38,117 --> 00:20:38,397 Right. 385 00:20:40,062 --> 00:20:40,632 Yes. 386 00:20:40,632 --> 00:20:45,937 So we actually have two, we had three ways of how you could get the money. 387 00:20:46,297 --> 00:20:51,127 First one was you could get it directly as a stable coin, um, or fiat. 388 00:20:51,667 --> 00:20:56,437 The second one was you get it as a prepaid Visa card so that the stable coins are 389 00:20:56,437 --> 00:20:58,207 actually sent to our card provider. 390 00:20:58,627 --> 00:21:00,757 Fortunately, that card provider shut down. 391 00:21:01,267 --> 00:21:04,267 That was literally just two weeks ago or something. 392 00:21:04,927 --> 00:21:08,137 So it's, we are looking currently for a new card provider. 393 00:21:08,907 --> 00:21:14,487 Um, but the third option is we have a partnership in Europe with Bring in 394 00:21:15,177 --> 00:21:19,317 where the lender would then send the stable coins to bring in and bring 395 00:21:19,317 --> 00:21:22,377 in, will convert it to Euros and send it directly to your bank account. 396 00:21:22,557 --> 00:21:22,947 Anja: Nice. 397 00:21:23,007 --> 00:21:23,307 Okay. 398 00:21:23,307 --> 00:21:23,757 Cool. 399 00:21:23,847 --> 00:21:24,387 Awesome. 400 00:21:25,317 --> 00:21:25,767 Awesome. 401 00:21:26,187 --> 00:21:29,457 Um, so then, yeah, um, I think we've got the. 402 00:21:30,627 --> 00:21:34,677 We've received the funds, so now we can look at the management of the loan 403 00:21:34,677 --> 00:21:40,287 ongoing, and we can go through a happy path first and then a happy path. 404 00:21:40,467 --> 00:21:43,347 So I've received the funds. 405 00:21:45,057 --> 00:21:46,047 What, what are what? 406 00:21:46,047 --> 00:21:47,157 What is the happy path? 407 00:21:47,157 --> 00:21:50,007 Like say I've got a loan term for one year. 408 00:21:50,832 --> 00:21:56,742 And I have selected the interest only with the remainder to be 409 00:21:56,832 --> 00:21:58,602 paid at the end of the year. 410 00:21:59,832 --> 00:22:02,472 Um, is it as simple as that? 411 00:22:02,472 --> 00:22:05,292 Is there anything else that I need to consider? 412 00:22:05,292 --> 00:22:06,882 Is it just pay as you go? 413 00:22:06,882 --> 00:22:07,932 Kind of, yeah. 414 00:22:08,742 --> 00:22:09,942 Philipp: It's that simple. 415 00:22:09,942 --> 00:22:14,592 Like the most important part is you need to monitor your contracts. 416 00:22:15,462 --> 00:22:15,857 The LTV. 417 00:22:16,617 --> 00:22:20,517 Our platform obviously does that for you and sends you a notification, 418 00:22:20,517 --> 00:22:24,837 but it won't hurt to just write down the liquidation price yourself. 419 00:22:24,867 --> 00:22:29,727 Um, use your mobile phone, tap trader or whatever to set your own custom alerts 420 00:22:30,057 --> 00:22:34,107 that if the price ever drops, that you don't just rely on us sending your 421 00:22:34,377 --> 00:22:36,387 emails, but you are informed before. 422 00:22:37,407 --> 00:22:38,307 But otherwise. 423 00:22:38,847 --> 00:22:44,037 You just wait for the 12 month to pass and eventually you pay back 424 00:22:44,067 --> 00:22:46,347 the contract and paying back. 425 00:22:46,347 --> 00:22:48,957 The contract is usually done in the asset you borrowed. 426 00:22:49,557 --> 00:22:54,057 So if you receive the USDT contract on Ethereum, then you 427 00:22:54,057 --> 00:22:55,917 have to pay back USDT on Ethereum. 428 00:22:56,697 --> 00:22:56,907 Anja: Yep. 429 00:22:57,237 --> 00:22:57,777 Nice. 430 00:22:58,407 --> 00:22:58,977 Very nice. 431 00:22:58,977 --> 00:23:02,637 That's another important question that I had and has been answered. 432 00:23:02,967 --> 00:23:08,097 Um, but I also did, now that you've mentioned mobile, did I see that 433 00:23:08,097 --> 00:23:10,077 you're potentially launching an app? 434 00:23:10,137 --> 00:23:10,767 Philipp: Yes. 435 00:23:10,767 --> 00:23:16,197 We actually have had, uh, an app, um, we just shut it down 436 00:23:16,197 --> 00:23:17,607 because we do a complete rewrite. 437 00:23:18,897 --> 00:23:25,047 Um, but yes, like initially our, our assumption or our learning was that. 438 00:23:25,557 --> 00:23:31,857 Big money needs big screens, so usually people are more, feel safer if they 439 00:23:31,917 --> 00:23:35,667 transfer a bigger amount on a bigger screen than using a mobile phone. 440 00:23:36,147 --> 00:23:40,257 But it turns out we actually tap into a lot of retail traders who are using 441 00:23:40,257 --> 00:23:44,247 smaller amounts, and they're just fine with using a phone and just popping over 442 00:23:44,247 --> 00:23:46,227 a few K here and taking a small loan. 443 00:23:47,232 --> 00:23:51,702 Anja: Yeah, I imagine if I was a user, I'm not saying I'm a big user, 444 00:23:51,702 --> 00:23:55,752 but hypothetically speaking, I do like a desktop experience more even. 445 00:23:57,942 --> 00:24:02,652 Um, so I'd be using, yeah, the desktop for the loan element, but the 446 00:24:02,652 --> 00:24:05,322 mobile app would be useful for like. 447 00:24:06,117 --> 00:24:08,637 You know, checking notifications and things. 448 00:24:08,727 --> 00:24:08,817 True. 449 00:24:08,817 --> 00:24:11,427 Make sure I'm not liquidated, wiped out. 450 00:24:11,427 --> 00:24:11,817 Makes totally 451 00:24:11,817 --> 00:24:12,207 Philipp: sense. 452 00:24:12,417 --> 00:24:13,167 Makes totally sense. 453 00:24:13,167 --> 00:24:13,437 Yes. 454 00:24:13,437 --> 00:24:13,737 Yes. 455 00:24:13,737 --> 00:24:17,427 So you take the loan on your big screen and then on the mobile phone you just 456 00:24:17,427 --> 00:24:21,867 check and maybe get push notifications on a regular basis if everything is fine. 457 00:24:21,867 --> 00:24:21,877 Yeah. 458 00:24:22,662 --> 00:24:23,262 Anja: Nice. 459 00:24:23,562 --> 00:24:24,132 Very nice. 460 00:24:24,582 --> 00:24:24,672 Yeah. 461 00:24:24,672 --> 00:24:26,982 And now let's talk about the unhappy path. 462 00:24:47,906 --> 00:24:48,596 Philipp: Yes. 463 00:24:49,406 --> 00:24:50,756 Unhappy path. 464 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:54,716 The the most critical one, and that's very important for you to understand, 465 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:59,156 is if the Bitcoin price drops, you risk losing your whole collateral. 466 00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:04,826 Um, math is not a hundred percent correct, but basically if the price drops by 467 00:25:04,826 --> 00:25:10,211 50%, you get liquidated and the lender has a claim on all your collateral. 468 00:25:11,426 --> 00:25:15,326 Uh, that's why we have this marching call system in place so that you get 469 00:25:15,326 --> 00:25:20,096 a notification, email notification, um, and you have some time to top up. 470 00:25:20,426 --> 00:25:24,986 Um, so yes, so there are two ways to prevent liquidations. 471 00:25:25,016 --> 00:25:29,816 So you first, you, uh, have to monitor the price or you get your notification, but 472 00:25:29,821 --> 00:25:32,366 then you can either top up the collateral. 473 00:25:33,146 --> 00:25:39,416 Which brings down the LTV ratio, like you add some more Bitcoin or alternatively, 474 00:25:39,416 --> 00:25:41,816 you pay back partially your contract. 475 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:46,676 So let's say your, um, Egypt trip turned out to only cost 476 00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:48,836 you 20 K and you have 10 K left. 477 00:25:49,301 --> 00:25:51,431 Yeah, I hope you, hope you didn't spend it on. 478 00:25:51,971 --> 00:25:53,501 Um, I don't know what you do in Egypt. 479 00:25:54,821 --> 00:25:58,061 Uh, you'll still have it, have it sitting aside. 480 00:25:58,061 --> 00:26:01,091 Then you could use those 10 k or maybe some other spare cash. 481 00:26:01,091 --> 00:26:04,961 You have to partially pay back the contract, which again will 482 00:26:04,961 --> 00:26:08,891 bring down your LTV ratio and put your contract in a healthy state. 483 00:26:09,746 --> 00:26:15,266 But if things go south, then you risk getting liquidated. 484 00:26:16,016 --> 00:26:19,571 And the interesting thing, what we learned on our platform is that. 485 00:26:20,801 --> 00:26:23,081 Some lenders are really, really nice people. 486 00:26:23,501 --> 00:26:28,061 They don't want to liquidate you as the borrower because they know this is the 487 00:26:28,211 --> 00:26:31,001 worst point in time to sell your Bitcoin. 488 00:26:31,061 --> 00:26:36,131 Like liquidation means you're actually selling your Bitcoin 'cause price is down. 489 00:26:36,161 --> 00:26:38,681 You have a capital gains tax event. 490 00:26:38,741 --> 00:26:40,811 Um, you really don't want to be there. 491 00:26:41,441 --> 00:26:44,201 Lenders do understand that and usually. 492 00:26:44,606 --> 00:26:49,526 They, they didn't expect to get the money back now anyways, like, let's say price 493 00:26:49,526 --> 00:26:54,446 dropped after one month, but they expected to only get it back after 12 months, then 494 00:26:54,446 --> 00:27:01,226 they might be happy for you to, um, hey, top up now, or repay, repay partially, 495 00:27:01,496 --> 00:27:03,356 even though I could liquidate you already. 496 00:27:03,446 --> 00:27:07,571 And then the contract would go back into a safe, um, safe state. 497 00:27:08,666 --> 00:27:10,886 Anja: Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. 498 00:27:10,886 --> 00:27:16,676 Um, I assume, you know, it's Bitcoin is on both sides of the marketplace, so they 499 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:22,436 bring the Bitcoin ethos with them and Yeah, I, I, I, I'm not surprised that that 500 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:27,626 is the behavior that you're witnessing, um, in terms of the liquidation. 501 00:27:27,626 --> 00:27:31,526 How much time do they have from when that notification comes up saying, 502 00:27:31,526 --> 00:27:33,776 Hey, you're kind of low top up. 503 00:27:34,406 --> 00:27:35,726 How much time do you have to act? 504 00:27:36,941 --> 00:27:38,561 Philipp: That's a really good question. 505 00:27:38,591 --> 00:27:40,751 There is no time limit. 506 00:27:40,901 --> 00:27:42,071 It's a price limit. 507 00:27:42,371 --> 00:27:46,631 So if there's, um, if the price keeps dropping, uh, every minute 508 00:27:46,631 --> 00:27:49,691 further, further, then you might just get into liquidation. 509 00:27:49,691 --> 00:27:54,791 And once the liquidation has reached, unless the lender agrees to, you 510 00:27:54,791 --> 00:27:56,566 can't recover from this anymore. 511 00:27:57,436 --> 00:27:57,886 Anja: Yeah, yeah. 512 00:27:57,971 --> 00:27:58,301 So there's 513 00:27:58,361 --> 00:28:00,791 Philipp: no, no grace period on our platform. 514 00:28:01,841 --> 00:28:02,261 Anja: Nice. 515 00:28:02,261 --> 00:28:02,861 Okay, cool. 516 00:28:02,861 --> 00:28:03,971 That's important to know. 517 00:28:04,061 --> 00:28:08,321 Um, yeah, it's, it's not the volatility of Bitcoin that's concerning. 518 00:28:08,321 --> 00:28:09,041 It's more like. 519 00:28:09,536 --> 00:28:10,946 Other things happening. 520 00:28:10,946 --> 00:28:15,746 Like if there was an AI bubble that's burst, bitcoin's gonna be 521 00:28:15,746 --> 00:28:21,176 the first one to react and who knows how, how far it would dip. 522 00:28:21,716 --> 00:28:25,196 Philipp: Um, I think it's, it's more realistic that Trump comes up with 523 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:29,996 some crazy new tariffs ideas and pushes the Bitcoin price drought down 524 00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:33,026 Anja: that is more predictable. 525 00:28:34,286 --> 00:28:36,086 It's almost like waiting for that to happen. 526 00:28:36,626 --> 00:28:37,046 Um, yes, 527 00:28:37,346 --> 00:28:39,116 Philipp: it'll happen again and again and again. 528 00:28:40,226 --> 00:28:40,526 Anja: Yeah. 529 00:28:40,886 --> 00:28:45,296 So then what is kind of the end of the journey for the user? 530 00:28:45,386 --> 00:28:48,236 Um, in both cases, obviously. 531 00:28:48,881 --> 00:28:52,121 There's, you know, the happy, the happy path. 532 00:28:52,181 --> 00:28:59,741 They just end up repaying their loan at the end, and hopefully they have kept 533 00:28:59,741 --> 00:29:07,271 more Bitcoin and lost less money than they would have had they sold Bitcoin and been. 534 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:11,926 Um, charge for capital gains, particularly in Yeah. 535 00:29:12,016 --> 00:29:13,276 Countries like Australia. 536 00:29:14,326 --> 00:29:16,456 Um, what, what, what is the end? 537 00:29:16,456 --> 00:29:18,436 Is there any, like, how do you part ways. 538 00:29:19,841 --> 00:29:21,551 Philipp: Yes, that's a good question. 539 00:29:21,551 --> 00:29:27,491 So the, the standard happy path is at the end of the long term, uh, you pay back 540 00:29:28,181 --> 00:29:33,401 your, the, the loan amount outstanding, meaning the principle, the amount and the 541 00:29:33,401 --> 00:29:35,381 amount you borrowed, plus the interest. 542 00:29:35,891 --> 00:29:39,281 And then the lender has to confirm the repayment. 543 00:29:39,971 --> 00:29:45,131 And if he says everything is fine, then he signs the, um, the transaction 544 00:29:45,521 --> 00:29:47,106 and you can withdraw your collateral. 545 00:29:48,116 --> 00:29:50,126 That's the standard happy path. 546 00:29:50,246 --> 00:29:52,526 There are a few other ways. 547 00:29:53,306 --> 00:29:58,616 For example, the uh, one approach would be to, during the lifetime 548 00:29:58,616 --> 00:30:02,336 of your contract, actually you could withdraw excess collateral. 549 00:30:03,626 --> 00:30:07,106 So let's say Bitcoin just keeps appreciating, appreciating 550 00:30:07,496 --> 00:30:10,016 ULTV suddenly down to 10%. 551 00:30:10,901 --> 00:30:13,421 You could consider doing something else with those Bitcoin. 552 00:30:13,421 --> 00:30:14,921 You don't have to keep it locked up. 553 00:30:15,281 --> 00:30:19,511 It's, I mean, it's safer to have a very low LTV, but maybe you just 554 00:30:19,511 --> 00:30:24,731 want to take another loan against it, um, or sell it or whatever. 555 00:30:25,481 --> 00:30:29,261 So this feature is not live yet, but if you have it in the pipeline that 556 00:30:29,261 --> 00:30:31,421 you can withdraw excess collateral. 557 00:30:32,441 --> 00:30:38,051 Another outcome would be to extend your contract with the current lender. 558 00:30:38,261 --> 00:30:42,491 So some lenders allow you to just roll over your contract by another 559 00:30:42,491 --> 00:30:45,011 term, maybe for another full year. 560 00:30:45,311 --> 00:30:48,251 They have the option to adjust the interest rate there. 561 00:30:48,311 --> 00:30:49,161 'cause interest rates are. 562 00:30:49,741 --> 00:30:54,901 Changing over time, but this is the idea of having the buy, borrow die, 563 00:30:55,651 --> 00:31:00,931 um, philosophy of you never pay back your contract so you, you can, um, 564 00:31:00,931 --> 00:31:02,851 seamlessly extend it with the same lender. 565 00:31:02,881 --> 00:31:07,711 If he's happy and usually institutional, they are always happy to just extend it. 566 00:31:08,441 --> 00:31:13,601 Um, but another way would be to do a perpetual loan in a way of you borrow 567 00:31:13,601 --> 00:31:17,291 from another lender and then with what you borrowed with the amount 568 00:31:17,291 --> 00:31:20,501 you borrowed from the other lender, you pay back this loan and then you 569 00:31:20,501 --> 00:31:24,851 basically extend it your contract as well, but just with a different lender, 570 00:31:26,261 --> 00:31:27,641 Anja: that's too advanced for me. 571 00:31:29,441 --> 00:31:32,576 Philipp: So let's say, let's say you owe me a hundred k. Yeah. 572 00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:36,956 Um, but uh, less around the corner. 573 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:41,096 He also offers you a hundred K for another 10%. 574 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:45,536 Then you just happen to have another 200 K worth of Bitcoin sitting around. 575 00:31:46,106 --> 00:31:48,416 Then you borrow from less. 576 00:31:48,446 --> 00:31:53,816 You get the a hundred K and you pay back me the a hundred K. You get back your 577 00:31:53,816 --> 00:31:56,096 Bitcoin and you have one contract left. 578 00:31:57,236 --> 00:32:01,286 For now, this is a manual process, but we are looking at, um, how to 579 00:32:01,286 --> 00:32:05,221 automate that so that you basically just switch the lenders with each other. 580 00:32:06,001 --> 00:32:06,221 Anja: Yep. 581 00:32:06,401 --> 00:32:06,621 Yep. 582 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:11,636 And in terms of fees as well, like what is the typical interest 583 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:12,806 rate offered by the lenders? 584 00:32:12,806 --> 00:32:14,096 Is there like a range? 585 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:14,636 Philipp: Yeah. 586 00:32:14,666 --> 00:32:16,526 Uh, it totally depends on the market. 587 00:32:16,526 --> 00:32:21,446 So Lendasat is an open marketplace and it's heavily depends on how 588 00:32:21,446 --> 00:32:23,006 much demand and supply is there. 589 00:32:23,456 --> 00:32:28,106 We've seen recently contracts as low as 8%, but I would say 590 00:32:28,106 --> 00:32:30,746 average is between 10 and 12%. 591 00:32:31,826 --> 00:32:32,096 Anja: Yeah. 592 00:32:32,246 --> 00:32:32,456 Yeah. 593 00:32:32,456 --> 00:32:33,926 That's kind of to be expected. 594 00:32:35,336 --> 00:32:39,026 Do you think, do you see that in time as more kind of competition comes 595 00:32:39,026 --> 00:32:40,796 in, that's going to get lowered? 596 00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:41,726 Yeah. 597 00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:42,386 Philipp: Nice. 598 00:32:42,386 --> 00:32:42,836 Totally. 599 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:43,136 Totally. 600 00:32:43,136 --> 00:32:43,346 Yes. 601 00:32:43,346 --> 00:32:44,786 No, we see that already happening. 602 00:32:45,146 --> 00:32:48,686 Lots of, um, custodial platforms are popping up. 603 00:32:49,286 --> 00:32:51,506 I would say through the line. 604 00:32:51,536 --> 00:32:56,456 All, um, have kind of similar interest rates around 10 to 12%. 605 00:32:56,456 --> 00:32:58,136 Some of them are going lower. 606 00:32:58,556 --> 00:33:02,996 Um, I'm not sure how they can manage that economically because. 607 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:07,526 The current interest rate on the market is just priced in that way. 608 00:33:08,681 --> 00:33:13,541 It will get lower and lower because as we see like banks popping up offering 609 00:33:13,571 --> 00:33:16,661 Bitcoin back loans, particularly in Switzerland, there's like the 610 00:33:16,661 --> 00:33:21,431 Signum bank and so on, and they offer really, really low interest rates. 611 00:33:21,431 --> 00:33:25,271 I think they started like 5%, but in return, they. 612 00:33:25,356 --> 00:33:27,126 Take custody over your Bitcoin? 613 00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:30,321 Anja: Probably re ated as well, I assume. 614 00:33:30,426 --> 00:33:30,696 I think 615 00:33:30,696 --> 00:33:33,186 Philipp: they, they're actually one of the good guys. 616 00:33:33,546 --> 00:33:37,536 I mean, you never can, you can never trust banks fully, but, um, 617 00:33:37,566 --> 00:33:40,626 they, they claim to not re ate. 618 00:33:40,656 --> 00:33:44,676 Uh, I mean if they claim it as a bank, as a regular institution, I 619 00:33:44,676 --> 00:33:46,746 don't think they have a way to do it. 620 00:33:46,746 --> 00:33:48,456 Nevertheless, that would just kill them. 621 00:33:48,941 --> 00:33:49,991 If they start lying. 622 00:33:50,411 --> 00:33:54,251 Um, but yes, you give up custody over your Bitcoin and for some 623 00:33:54,251 --> 00:33:55,781 Bitcoiners this is a north dollar. 624 00:33:56,201 --> 00:34:00,641 But as, as more banks come in, they are sitting very close to the money 625 00:34:00,641 --> 00:34:05,171 printer and they get very good, cheap interest rates, the general 626 00:34:05,171 --> 00:34:06,521 interest rates will come down as well. 627 00:34:07,196 --> 00:34:07,496 Anja: Yeah. 628 00:34:07,946 --> 00:34:12,566 And also in Australia, I believe that if you do give up on the custody of 629 00:34:12,566 --> 00:34:16,406 your Bitcoin, that that essentially does trigger a capital gains tax. 630 00:34:16,406 --> 00:34:19,526 You kind of, the very thing you're trying to avoid doing is happening. 631 00:34:19,796 --> 00:34:19,916 Philipp: Yeah. 632 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:25,196 So it's, it's, it's a complex matter, like the capital gains tax, 633 00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:29,936 even legal opinion we receive based on what the atos writing is that. 634 00:34:30,386 --> 00:34:35,756 If your Bitcoins get pooled, um, or mixed with another, with other 635 00:34:35,756 --> 00:34:41,066 bitcoins, um, or converted to a rapid dc then there is a CGT event. 636 00:34:42,176 --> 00:34:49,016 If you get back the same UTXR, um, for example, you put it in a multisig or the 637 00:34:49,016 --> 00:34:53,906 custodian holds it in a single sink, um, then there is no capital against event. 638 00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:58,856 More importantly, it depends heavily on what is the terms of service says. 639 00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:02,696 As long as there's terms of service says that you are the ultimate 640 00:35:02,696 --> 00:35:07,106 beneficiary owner of those Bitcoin, then there shouldn't be a CGT event. 641 00:35:07,496 --> 00:35:11,846 Like for example, if you send Bitcoin to today to a centralized exchange. 642 00:35:12,971 --> 00:35:16,721 Um, just to keep it there or with the attention to potentially 643 00:35:16,721 --> 00:35:18,131 sell it in the new future. 644 00:35:18,461 --> 00:35:21,491 There's also no CGT event if you just deposit it there. 645 00:35:21,851 --> 00:35:26,771 So it's 'cause it's still in your account and owned, owned by you. 646 00:35:27,431 --> 00:35:32,651 But if you use something like are they, or compound, which are lending 647 00:35:32,651 --> 00:35:36,611 pools on Ethereum, then there is a capital against tax event. 648 00:35:38,101 --> 00:35:38,121 Anja: Yeah. 649 00:35:38,486 --> 00:35:38,726 Yeah. 650 00:35:38,816 --> 00:35:39,506 Nice. 651 00:35:40,226 --> 00:35:43,826 Um, I think that's it in terms of the questions that I had. 652 00:35:44,186 --> 00:35:49,106 Um, do you get any other technical questions from more advanced users 653 00:35:49,106 --> 00:35:53,276 that I don't know how to ask you, but you, you might wanna answer anyway? 654 00:35:55,256 --> 00:35:59,066 Philipp: Um, well, so the, the. 655 00:35:59,711 --> 00:36:02,771 The core assumption is that is a trust minimized approach 656 00:36:02,771 --> 00:36:04,601 with a two to three multisig. 657 00:36:04,601 --> 00:36:07,811 But as as biased as I am, that we are the best. 658 00:36:08,351 --> 00:36:09,551 Do your own research. 659 00:36:10,301 --> 00:36:15,281 Uh, there has been a situation in the market where a platform started off 660 00:36:15,581 --> 00:36:19,706 as a non-custodial lending product, and then from one day to the other. 661 00:36:20,321 --> 00:36:22,751 Switch to a custodial solution. 662 00:36:23,051 --> 00:36:25,931 So you really want to do your own research and figure out if this 663 00:36:25,931 --> 00:36:27,701 is a trustworthy platform or not. 664 00:36:28,181 --> 00:36:33,881 Um, obviously we are, we are very trustworthy, but do your own research. 665 00:36:33,941 --> 00:36:38,231 Um, even we have only been around for one year and you might feel safer 666 00:36:38,231 --> 00:36:41,651 with going with a different player who has been around for a longer time. 667 00:36:41,801 --> 00:36:42,071 Anja: Yeah. 668 00:36:42,671 --> 00:36:47,471 Um, on that as well, a little bit, if we were to educate listeners. 669 00:36:47,931 --> 00:36:51,831 In terms of what are the most important things to look out for when 670 00:36:51,831 --> 00:36:53,991 assessing a lender, what would that be? 671 00:36:54,141 --> 00:36:55,791 Philipp: Uh, we touched on that. 672 00:36:56,651 --> 00:36:59,501 A bit already, like the LTV is very important. 673 00:36:59,501 --> 00:37:00,581 Like what is the minimum? 674 00:37:00,581 --> 00:37:01,181 LTV? 675 00:37:01,181 --> 00:37:06,461 Some platforms, um, allow you to have a minimum LTV of 70%, and if they 676 00:37:06,461 --> 00:37:11,471 have similar liquidation thresholds as we have, um, like starting from 80%, 677 00:37:11,921 --> 00:37:14,111 then the price can't drop that much. 678 00:37:14,111 --> 00:37:17,801 Like from 70 to 80% is roughly 10% price drop. 679 00:37:18,551 --> 00:37:21,611 So that's one you really want to, to look out at. 680 00:37:22,001 --> 00:37:27,041 Um, then the, the custody of where are your Bitcoins being held, 681 00:37:27,071 --> 00:37:32,471 um, who has, has the key and most importantly, can the platform re ate? 682 00:37:33,626 --> 00:37:38,456 Real ate means can they use your Bitcoin for other things? 683 00:37:39,086 --> 00:37:41,936 And some platforms they do exactly that. 684 00:37:42,026 --> 00:37:46,226 They basically take your Bitcoin and then start gambling with them. 685 00:37:46,286 --> 00:37:50,996 And in return they give you better interest rates, but you might 686 00:37:50,996 --> 00:37:53,606 risk them to lose your money. 687 00:37:54,626 --> 00:37:56,036 So you really don't want to be that. 688 00:37:56,786 --> 00:37:59,726 Another one is, um, the KYC aspect. 689 00:38:00,596 --> 00:38:02,996 It's a very critical one, like. 690 00:38:04,151 --> 00:38:11,051 We have seen heaps of data breaches, lakes, the Cher One, Cher Hack, or 691 00:38:11,261 --> 00:38:15,251 Cher Breach, which many of Bitcoiners have been on this list probably. 692 00:38:15,596 --> 00:38:17,096 Yeah, that's very, that. 693 00:38:17,126 --> 00:38:21,596 I think that's even worse if you go to a lender because suddenly this lender 694 00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:27,086 PLA lending platform is a huge honey pot of high net worth individuals or 695 00:38:27,086 --> 00:38:31,706 institutions, and they know exactly what's your name, what's the address, 696 00:38:31,736 --> 00:38:35,276 how much Bitcoin you have, because you provided your name, you provided 697 00:38:35,276 --> 00:38:38,936 your address in the KYC process, and you deposited your Bitcoin. 698 00:38:39,506 --> 00:38:43,526 So they have a very clear idea of how rich you are. 699 00:38:43,756 --> 00:38:46,576 Because usually you don't use your whole stack. 700 00:38:46,576 --> 00:38:48,076 You use like a fraction of it. 701 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:52,906 Then you might get targeted in the future, so you. 702 00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:57,086 Personally, I would look only for no KYC platforms. 703 00:38:58,046 --> 00:38:58,316 Anja: Yep. 704 00:38:58,796 --> 00:38:59,096 Yep. 705 00:38:59,216 --> 00:39:00,446 That's really good advice. 706 00:39:00,776 --> 00:39:06,056 And before we wrap up, I do wanna ask about the other side of the marketplace. 707 00:39:06,236 --> 00:39:14,186 If someone is interested to be a lender themselves, um, what, what can they do? 708 00:39:15,506 --> 00:39:15,866 Philipp: Totally. 709 00:39:15,866 --> 00:39:16,076 Yes. 710 00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:19,886 So on our platform, this is an, an open marketplace. 711 00:39:19,886 --> 00:39:22,616 So you as a lender, you are more than welcome. 712 00:39:22,646 --> 00:39:27,596 Let's say you have an excess of cash sitting around, um, maybe you sold a house 713 00:39:27,596 --> 00:39:32,486 or something and you wanna buy another one in a year from now, then the worst 714 00:39:32,486 --> 00:39:36,361 thing you can do is keep your cash sitting on the bank account because you earn. 715 00:39:37,226 --> 00:39:39,236 Two, three, maybe 4%. 716 00:39:39,866 --> 00:39:42,776 Um, you are much better off to lending it out. 717 00:39:42,806 --> 00:39:47,606 Um, support some poor bitcoiners who want to borrow, um, and 718 00:39:48,596 --> 00:39:51,056 establish a, a Bitcoin economy. 719 00:39:51,056 --> 00:39:53,636 But you get really choosy interest rates like. 720 00:39:54,461 --> 00:39:57,731 We talked, we touched that as it's currently between 10 and 12%. 721 00:39:57,761 --> 00:40:01,511 And if you have some cash sitting around, it's like a savings account, 722 00:40:01,571 --> 00:40:03,521 a fixed term savings account. 723 00:40:03,941 --> 00:40:07,991 You lend it out for a term and then you get it back, plus interest rates 724 00:40:08,471 --> 00:40:13,626 and the risk to lose money as a lender, I would say is almost zero. 725 00:40:15,746 --> 00:40:17,666 Anja: Yeah, that's really, really cool. 726 00:40:17,816 --> 00:40:24,626 Um, I, when I was doing my MBA, one of the units that I did was strategy, 727 00:40:24,746 --> 00:40:28,676 like strategic management, I believe it was called, and double-sided 728 00:40:28,676 --> 00:40:30,596 marketplaces where all the rage. 729 00:40:31,016 --> 00:40:35,456 Um, so the, the fact that we have one like is just amazing for 730 00:40:35,456 --> 00:40:40,016 Bitcoin and I just really, really like the business model behind it. 731 00:40:40,466 --> 00:40:42,431 Um, and also like that, you know, you can. 732 00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:46,646 You don't have to be like a perpetual, sorry, a perpetual lender. 733 00:40:46,646 --> 00:40:52,586 You can just do it if there's a need for like a year or so, and yeah, I like it. 734 00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:53,576 I like it a lot. 735 00:40:53,581 --> 00:40:53,691 Yeah. 736 00:40:54,476 --> 00:40:54,716 Philipp: Yeah. 737 00:40:54,716 --> 00:40:59,066 There's, uh, maybe one, one ask for people who have money 738 00:40:59,066 --> 00:41:00,656 sitting on their offset accounts. 739 00:41:01,196 --> 00:41:04,076 There's money is currently not earning your any interest. 740 00:41:04,136 --> 00:41:07,826 I mean, it's implicitly earning your interest based 741 00:41:07,826 --> 00:41:09,086 on how much your mortgage is. 742 00:41:09,641 --> 00:41:14,201 But you could take that money out and lend it out at a higher interest 743 00:41:14,201 --> 00:41:16,691 and then make a profit and return. 744 00:41:17,921 --> 00:41:18,161 Anja: Yeah. 745 00:41:18,701 --> 00:41:19,241 Nice. 746 00:41:19,991 --> 00:41:26,021 Um, final questions I guess would be, is there anything on the 747 00:41:26,021 --> 00:41:28,721 roadmap that you wanna disclose? 748 00:41:29,471 --> 00:41:31,811 Maybe not, but I just thought I'd ask anyway. 749 00:41:33,026 --> 00:41:33,446 Philipp: Yeah. 750 00:41:33,476 --> 00:41:36,776 Uh, so we are currently very hyped about Arcade. 751 00:41:37,256 --> 00:41:39,176 I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. 752 00:41:39,176 --> 00:41:42,926 It's a new L two based on the ARC protocol. 753 00:41:43,436 --> 00:41:47,486 Uh, I want to say it's similar to Lightning, but at the same time 754 00:41:47,486 --> 00:41:48,656 it's not similar to Lightning. 755 00:41:49,586 --> 00:41:53,966 We, the advantage of this is that you can have instant transactions, 756 00:41:54,806 --> 00:41:57,536 and particularly for small loans. 757 00:41:57,536 --> 00:42:00,861 Let's say you want to take a quick loan to top up your cart. 758 00:42:01,961 --> 00:42:06,101 And you usually don't want to wait for a confirmation or, um, it's 759 00:42:06,101 --> 00:42:09,071 not economically feasible to just lock up for a hundred dollars. 760 00:42:09,986 --> 00:42:13,826 For these small amounts, we are moving our contracts to arcade so 761 00:42:13,826 --> 00:42:17,096 that you can have instant transactions and really, really quick loans. 762 00:42:18,116 --> 00:42:20,786 Anja: That's really interesting and too technical for me. 763 00:42:22,556 --> 00:42:24,086 Philipp: It's very, very new. 764 00:42:24,086 --> 00:42:28,796 Um, they launched, uh, I think in October or so this year. 765 00:42:29,346 --> 00:42:33,186 So it's, it's very, very early, but we are one of the first 766 00:42:33,186 --> 00:42:34,716 ones building on this platforms. 767 00:42:35,226 --> 00:42:37,986 Um, it's, it's, it looks very promising. 768 00:42:38,286 --> 00:42:38,991 I'm really happy about it. 769 00:42:39,911 --> 00:42:43,421 Anja: Yeah, I, I love it when it comes to new things, you're trying to anchor 770 00:42:43,421 --> 00:42:45,161 it with something that people know. 771 00:42:45,161 --> 00:42:48,266 So you're like, it's like lightning, but not like lightning, but not, 772 00:42:49,301 --> 00:42:53,891 Philipp: it actually, it actually uses lightning, so you can do, you have your 773 00:42:53,891 --> 00:42:57,431 off chain money and you, if you want to transact, you don't have to do an 774 00:42:57,431 --> 00:43:04,361 on chain transaction and the, the, the fabric connecting you and another page. 775 00:43:04,426 --> 00:43:07,486 The payee where you want to send money is usually lightning. 776 00:43:08,056 --> 00:43:13,936 So let's say you want to pay, um, a wallet of Satoshi user, then you 777 00:43:13,936 --> 00:43:16,456 are on a Kate, fully self custodial. 778 00:43:16,546 --> 00:43:20,026 You scan your QR code, which is a normal lightning invoice, and 779 00:43:20,026 --> 00:43:21,346 then you do a lightning payment. 780 00:43:22,216 --> 00:43:25,666 That's why it's similar to lightning, but the protocol is completely different. 781 00:43:26,261 --> 00:43:26,951 Anja: Nice. 782 00:43:27,101 --> 00:43:29,171 So just paint a picture for me. 783 00:43:29,471 --> 00:43:33,881 Is this like as quick as, let's say I'm at a fuel station, I've just fueled 784 00:43:33,881 --> 00:43:39,371 up my car and for some reason I'm out of fiat, can I quickly get a loan? 785 00:43:39,491 --> 00:43:41,861 Like just to pay for the how quick? 786 00:43:43,241 --> 00:43:47,351 Philipp: That's, that's, that's where we want to get to that, um, the name. 787 00:43:47,491 --> 00:43:53,491 L Asat actually came from exactly that idea that you want to pay an invoice. 788 00:43:53,491 --> 00:43:58,081 We didn't start with fiat, but we started with, um, lightning invoices. 789 00:43:58,141 --> 00:44:02,161 So let's say your coffee shop has a lightning terminology, but you don't 790 00:44:02,161 --> 00:44:08,731 wanna spend your SATs, then you can pay for that invoice by taking a loan. 791 00:44:09,446 --> 00:44:14,156 So like really small micro loan for your $5 coffee. 792 00:44:14,486 --> 00:44:18,116 You take a loan, but the invoice is getting paid instantly. 793 00:44:18,116 --> 00:44:21,956 So you basically have someone is lending you a set, same, 794 00:44:21,956 --> 00:44:24,296 could be with your gas station. 795 00:44:24,746 --> 00:44:28,676 You just need to someone to make the conversion between SATs and fiat. 796 00:44:29,096 --> 00:44:34,346 So maybe the, the gas station accepts lightning or there's a conversion 797 00:44:34,346 --> 00:44:35,666 to some stable coins in between. 798 00:44:35,666 --> 00:44:37,616 But that's where we would love to get to. 799 00:44:38,666 --> 00:44:39,806 Anja: Yeah, I love it. 800 00:44:39,806 --> 00:44:43,826 So it's kind of like the buy now pay later, but for bitcoin. 801 00:44:44,726 --> 00:44:45,116 Philipp: Yes. 802 00:44:45,116 --> 00:44:49,496 And that that's, we had this concept initially, but it breaks your brain a 803 00:44:49,496 --> 00:44:51,386 little bit because my brain is broke now. 804 00:44:51,566 --> 00:44:55,706 Pay later is like for people who can't afford things right 805 00:44:55,706 --> 00:45:00,806 now, um, usually they're like really bad with money management. 806 00:45:00,806 --> 00:45:03,446 They can't afford their groceries, but then half. 807 00:45:03,446 --> 00:45:06,201 Through the month, they figure out, Hey, shit, I still need to eat. 808 00:45:07,041 --> 00:45:12,021 And then they go shopping with this and know they get back the salary, 809 00:45:12,081 --> 00:45:13,701 get the salary in a few weeks. 810 00:45:13,701 --> 00:45:15,261 And with that they pay back the loan. 811 00:45:16,401 --> 00:45:21,111 Buy now, pay later with Bitcoin is a bit different because you have to have 812 00:45:21,111 --> 00:45:23,751 the money ahead of time and more of it. 813 00:45:24,321 --> 00:45:29,871 So it's, so for your $5 coffee, you have to have $10 worth 814 00:45:29,871 --> 00:45:31,011 of Bitcoin sitting around. 815 00:45:31,526 --> 00:45:31,826 Anja: Yep. 816 00:45:32,036 --> 00:45:33,266 Yeah, that makes sense. 817 00:45:33,716 --> 00:45:34,286 I love it. 818 00:45:34,946 --> 00:45:36,326 I, I love how humble you are. 819 00:45:36,326 --> 00:45:40,826 Remember at at parks we were looking at you and talking behind your back and 820 00:45:40,826 --> 00:45:45,266 thinking like, there's just Philipp just casually sitting there blending in, like 821 00:45:45,266 --> 00:45:50,096 built this amazing platform and he's just like, you know, looks so humble about it. 822 00:45:52,766 --> 00:45:53,156 Philipp: Thank you. 823 00:45:53,156 --> 00:45:53,456 Yeah. 824 00:45:54,921 --> 00:45:56,066 Anja: Now that've embarrassed you. 825 00:45:56,876 --> 00:45:57,686 Philipp: No, not at all. 826 00:45:57,686 --> 00:45:58,586 You're just flattering me. 827 00:45:59,036 --> 00:45:59,186 Yeah. 828 00:46:00,956 --> 00:46:04,856 Anja: Do you have any final, um, final things you wanna share? 829 00:46:04,856 --> 00:46:10,166 Obviously I will link the platform and your Twitter page maybe, um, 830 00:46:10,196 --> 00:46:13,646 to the show notes, but is there anything else that you'd like to 831 00:46:13,646 --> 00:46:15,026 cover that I may have forgotten? 832 00:46:15,866 --> 00:46:16,376 Philipp: Yes. 833 00:46:16,376 --> 00:46:20,456 Uh, so given that we are an open marketplace, you can test out the 834 00:46:20,456 --> 00:46:25,406 platform in a very safe way, meaning you register as a lender and as a borrower. 835 00:46:25,916 --> 00:46:28,646 And for a test loan, you just take a loan from yourself. 836 00:46:29,246 --> 00:46:32,786 So there is no risk of anyone being non-responsive. 837 00:46:32,786 --> 00:46:35,426 You're locking up the money not correctly or something. 838 00:46:35,426 --> 00:46:40,646 And then you can really test out the different features of what if the lender 839 00:46:40,676 --> 00:46:42,266 doesn't respond, what's happening? 840 00:46:42,296 --> 00:46:44,156 Then what if everything is fine? 841 00:46:44,156 --> 00:46:44,816 I pay back. 842 00:46:44,816 --> 00:46:45,476 How does it work? 843 00:46:45,896 --> 00:46:48,476 What if they platform actually disappears? 844 00:46:48,956 --> 00:46:50,786 Can I recover the funds? 845 00:46:51,026 --> 00:46:51,746 Uh, and so on. 846 00:46:51,776 --> 00:46:55,136 So you can really try things out 'cause it's an open marketplace 847 00:46:55,136 --> 00:46:56,216 and open on both sides. 848 00:46:57,266 --> 00:46:57,881 Anja: I love that. 849 00:46:57,881 --> 00:47:00,641 And that again goes back to the ethos of verify. 850 00:47:00,641 --> 00:47:03,701 Don't trust, like, yeah. 851 00:47:03,821 --> 00:47:04,001 Yes. 852 00:47:04,001 --> 00:47:04,421 Love it. 853 00:47:04,481 --> 00:47:04,691 Philipp: Yeah. 854 00:47:04,781 --> 00:47:06,991 Anja: Um, thank you so much for your time, Philipp. 855 00:47:07,181 --> 00:47:09,851 And yeah, thanks for Well thank you. 856 00:47:09,851 --> 00:47:10,106 Thanks for being on. 857 00:47:10,106 --> 00:47:10,386 Thanks for 858 00:47:10,386 --> 00:47:10,666 Philipp: having me. 859 00:47:11,176 --> 00:47:11,466 Anja: Okay, 860 00:47:12,806 --> 00:47:13,026 Philipp: bye.