[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, And welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: And it is an absolute delight to be back recording with you in the studio Pia. 

[00:00:21] Pia: it is. I have missed you and I've missed this. It's like, oh, I have a sort of like a gate, a gaping hole in my week when we're not 

[00:00:31] Dan: I know this is, this is wonderful. And I, and, uh, I certainly learned so much from this last episode there last season. So really looking forward to cracking into season season three. 

[00:00:42] Pia: And you've been down to the big smoke. You just come back from London.

[00:00:45] Dan: I have I been about on the streets R and D paved with gold as they, as they say. Um, yeah, so I was at learning technologies, which is the, a big gathering, the biggest gathering of learning and development people in Europe. And yeah, it was really interesting for the point of your team. Still, mostly the theme was all about individual developments and, and those things. But what I realized was that our conversations had changed totally since this book was the last time where they was just before the pandemic. And I realized that teams are now visible, weirdly moving out of the office, as soon as teams become work from anywhere or hybrid somebody that somehow people see them more. They're really. But they need to do something to keep them together. Whereas I think there was some complacency when people could just walk past the conference room and say, oh, there's a team sitting around the table. Little, did they know. what was lurking? What dysfunction was to me, but then now definitely worried about it. 

[00:01:40] Pia: And so much disruption and, and really when we look back over last season, there was a lot of disruption and the themes looked specifically a lot at climate and looking at how you create that optimal climate in that disrupt and in that intensity. And then what are the key competencies? So it's actually quite fascinating how each season has a little bit of a different flavor, depending on what's going on.

[00:02:07] Dan: Absolutely. And I think this I've really looked at reviewing the, um, the season as we're going to do in this episode, you get that flavor and, and really just the site guys, don't you've really have a need for psychological safety for diversity, for connection. So, let's review the season. We're going to do it like we did last time using the three CS. So we're going to first look at clarity, which obviously is why we're doing what we're doing as a team, what we're trying to achieve, how are we going to get there? And who's going to do what. Then as you say, the climate, that's going to be a big, chunky section, which is actually the hard stuff, the resources, processes, and so on, but also the soft stuff, the actual culture that exists in the team. And then finally, we'll look at competence skills yes,, but in this case, mostly those team behaviors, you know, what do we need of each other in a team to actually behave, to bring this team together? 

[00:02:59] So, um, let's have a listen to our review. We have a guest today, which he, who he had previously didn't we Pia, from season one. It was one, I think one of our most listened to episodes actually 

[00:03:12] Pia: Lucy Hovanec from GHD and we've worked with Lucy in the long lost past and on all of us share this common passion for leadership and Lucy's having the opportunity to put it into a large organization, uh, for, for some very exciting, renewable ands in the future. So, yeah, it'd be great to hear from her.

[00:03:36] And a huge welcome back to Lucy holodeck. Hi Lucy. You were with us on season one, and now you're back to do this review of season 

[00:03:46] Lucy: Thrilled to be here, Pia and and Dan, thanks for having me. 

[00:03:49] Pia: Delighted. So let's kick straight into it. Let's start with clarity. And we have Simon Shepherd on the program who talked about heart rate, variability monitors. And this is really interesting because this is about the data that we collect about. Ourselves. And I think that's a really good place to start. I often wonder it would be great if you got up in the morning and you've got all that information about yourself, the choices that you would make going forward. So let's let's play the clip about what he sees around clarity.

[00:04:21] Simon: So I guess I have a basic philosophy that I call mainframe, so M for measure and analyze, and that will come through the data the understanding. I for inspire, because data is actually pretty useless unless you use it or help people understand themselves or make some change or reinforcement in their life. And then I guess the key is the N which is for nurture. How do you actually make conversation last a little bit longer? So it isn't a here today and gone tomorrow? 

[00:04:49] So what I typically do is I will work with groups of people, and I do work with individuals, but I think my sweet spot in the area I really enjoy is working with groups of people in teams and. One help them understand themselves and individual level a little bit better, and to help them understand each other and therefore maybe place some support for each other and open up those conversations that allow you to be a really closely knit team. And thirdly, in, particularly in the lead ship sector, encourage the leaders to think, how do I become a multiplier for this across my organization? Because you will learn as an interview. But actually isn't it great. If you then teach a few other people or mentor a few other people to open up those conversations with a few other people, Because if your people are functioning well, your job comes in a lot eaiser. 

[00:05:42] Dan: I really loved this interview because it, as a sort of very engineering year sort of analytical type it taught me actually that data is one thing, but actually understanding is another thing. And actually you got to talk with your team about the data in order to build that shared understanding. The data itself as a foundation. But you've got to talk with your team. If you um, have you seen that in your world, Lucy, where the sort of the data needs to be interpreted and understood?

[00:06:09] Lucy: Absolutely. I think it's it's kind of like systems, uh, they're only as good as the people who are using them. And I think if you've, you've got data, the real richness comes from the conversation around that particular data. And I think my key takeaway from Simon's, um, incredible interview was really around that the coming the multiplier that really stood out to me. And I think that really resonates for thinking about my team at the moment and terms of what within the past, if you can become that multiplier across your organization. He mentioned if he could teach and mentor others, your job becomes a lot easier. I'd say for me, I think about if you can coach others and then coach them to coach others, then you can cascade data, whatever it is from the top across the whole organization, but you're also opening up a culture of coaching and openness and making the data meaningful.

[00:06:59] Dan: Yeah, it's such a good point, Lucy, about the multiply. And I think actually this relates very closely to a point that James prime made in the ninth episode of the season, where he was talking about, individual identity in teams. And we asked him a question about clarity itself in this fast moving world. 

[00:07:17] James: I think there was an interesting piece just in, your question there, Dan, of, if we look like we don't know what we're doing, we're not okay. And so clarity is often a definitive action that if I do this, I get this. And that's, I think that's some of the challenge is that people want, certainty that if I do this, I get this, but that doesn't happen now. So for me, clarity is about actually reassurance that we are, we're going to head in this direction and we'll put milestones in place to see the emergence of what's going. So this is our target. This is what we want to achieve. That's still the same. But I think along that way, Clarity becomes pause, reflect and understand what are we seeing? What's the system telling us what are we making sense making of the system to allow us to tiller touch? Creates space of dialogue and understanding through the tension in the not solve it, but through that to allow it to be aired. For me that's clarity that we have the space to be able to have those conversations.

[00:08:27] Now, sometimes there is total certainty. If we do this, we will get this. Not everything is ambiguous in the world. And so which bits can, and that's another piece, which bits can we be very clear on, right? If this is our plan, which bits are really concrete, which bits aren't? Which bits are we just going to not worry about right now, okay? And we'll see what happens and does when we do this affect this, and what's the interconnectivity between those two things. Now that's hard for leaders who are being assessed on delivering concrete outcomes. 

[00:09:03] Lucy: This really resonated for me, Dan, I think the um, the first myth I think he blew was around leaders needing to have all the answers. And I think this is a recurring theme that we're hearing throughout the season is that leaders actually don't need to have all the answers and can't have the answers. We're at a very uncertain world. So when I look at my team and my role we're involved in helping to decarbonize the world, we're helping companies to navigate the future energy transition. We've never been here before the world has not been decarbonized. As far as I know, and we so we are in an uncertain world in terms of what does that look like? 

[00:09:37] So I think his point around moving towards something with milestones and. Pausing, reflecting and understanding was really important. I think often in the real world where we're not making that time to have those conversations or really making space to have those conversations and really checking in with where we're at the moment, how everyone's tracking, how everyone's feeling about where we're tracking and then re choosing where we're going to go into the future. So, he was bang on. 

[00:10:03] Dan: That piece for me as well loose about that he said about people seeking character, but wanting certainty really resonated as well ever since he said that it's, it stayed with me. And I've in trying to build clarity um, in our team, I've born in mind that there's a, there's an element, a need, a human need for certainty. And those shorter term goals can start to give some of that. I think.

[00:10:25] Lucy: Absolutely. And I think about I'm working with engineers. Absolutely. Some of the smartest people I've ever met in my life, obviously apart from UNP PF den. But they uh, very, very, they are very they want a project plan. They want the deadlines locked in. They want to be able to ascertain where the deltas are going to be. And so I know when I first started in my role and said we're going to take this agile approach. We're going to be, we're heading in this direction. This is where we think we want to go. We're going to be checking in. This was the, where's the project plan. I said you can come up with all the project plans you like, but we're heading in this direction. We're aiming for, we're aiming for the stars or the moon. And we're going to be off course as we go along. But the project plan is not the thing that's going to get us there. It's the choosing the intention, having certainty of where we're heading together. But not necessarily knowing what all the steps are going to be.

[00:11:12] Pia: And sometimes that desire for clarity creates a bit of. Execution constipation, because we're sort of w w we're not prepared to move forward as it were, because we go I've got to have clarity, whereas you've got to have a mindset to go it's not going to be perfect, but we are committed to that overall direction. And and we've got the flax, got the fact. So it's a mindset piece. I think that's really key as well with that.

[00:11:38] The main focus I think, of season two was around climate. So I think as we set that focus around this creating, how do you create a sense of certainty and direction, then what's the different climates and the, you mentioned loose that. You're working in a world that is brand new and you're having to recreate it as you chart the chart, the progress go forward. And I think probably so is half the world. We're in the most upside down, turned inside out world. So it was really valuable for this season to focus on the climate, looking at what is the different environments and what can we learn and what are the themes from it.

[00:12:22] And we started with. Chief people officer from Marquetta Suni Lobo, who is an absolute legend and spun the whole great resignation on its head and looked at the great retention and gave us some real food for thought about how to do that. 

[00:12:44] Suni: I think we've been so socialized, especially, to where we are at currently and headquarter currently up in California, we have this, we've got into the cycle of, we need to attract talent by just focusing on compensation and compensation drives people's behavior in an organization. And when I look at all of the data, that is probably the, the, 10th driver of what drives people on a scale of one to 10 uh, from a sustainability perspective.

[00:13:16] Now, it can be below the point where you can attract talent. So you have to be at a decent level to attract talent. But after that, the multipliers occur when you're creating a sense of belonging when you're creating. Your spirit when you're creating a mission and vision that is simple enough for people to understand and can get behind. And when you're walking the walking to the talk, because a lot of companies will say for example, in the pandemic, we said, we right at the start of the pandemic, we made a commitment that we would not fire anyone from the company, even if our profits dipped. And the way we did that was that the executive team took a cut in their compensation to make sure that we were not impacting other people in the organization.

[00:14:03] Pia: So I wonder. How many people listening to this, their executives did the same thing. That, that is a prime leadership example and know they talk about fish stinks from the head down. And if you turn that around the other way around, in terms of that leadership, it's what happens at the top. So you could not have got a stronger leadership example of how to set the climate. We'll take the cut. We'll create that security, that certainty in an incredibly uncertain time.

[00:14:37] Lucy: I was reflecting on our own experiences within teams and leaders within our organization. And we actually, we did exactly the same thing. Took a cup and took a pay cut. And, but we didn't communicate it. So it was really interesting hearing what she was saying and thinking what a lost opportunity. I mean, I took every opportunity to communicate it, but we didn't officially communicate it to, to others. But, a Friday was always the day that I was like this is my free Friday. This is the David I've given up that I'm working for the good of my company and all our leaders do that across the business. But I think we may have missed the opportunity to communicate that.

[00:15:10] Pia: I think that's a really key pointless, because then you ask yourself why. Didn't why wasn't it communicated? Was it community? Was it not communicated? Because it's a fear thing that if all the executives are reducing their taking a pay cup, does that send out a poor signal or a good signal? So it's how it's communicated. Cause sometimes it's a bit like family whole back in a big family. When, you know, you have to say right kids don't take everything off the plate. Cause we've got to have the guests seated first. Just was yacht was

[00:15:46] Lucy: within a couple of cups of water. Yep. Yep.

[00:15:49] Pia: But it is a really important part. It's actually in times of uncertainty being really authentic Watson or, and that actually really attracts people and actually makes people feel safer.

[00:16:01] Lucy: So yeah, you're right Pia, and I think something else that really shine through for me in the Suni discussion uh, was that focused on belonging. And she said compensation does not drive behavior. Belonging does. And we are absolutely seeing this at the moment. The engineering market over here. We're not just engineering project controls basically anything related to um, renewable energy is a red hot market for our employees and they're being poached. And what we're seeing is employees are being poached for sort of 20, 30% uplift in their salaries. Um, they're leaving and they're coming back. And it's wonderful because we say to them doors always open because we know where they're going is not, they're not going to feel like they're belonging. And that's the feedback we get when they come back is sure I took a bigger salary over there, but they've got no idea what's happening and they didn't make me feel like I wanted to work for them. And your company does so it's fascinating what's happening at the moment.

[00:16:58] Dan: yeah it's, it's great to hear leaves and Yeah, this was a point actually that we picked up with a Kevin Brownsey of red pill when we talked to him about culture, because you know, Suni was talking about your people tend to attract through compensation, but actually you, your culture can be magnetic as well to in your case, bring people back or at least, or retain them. But yeah, we asked we asked Kevin to really drill down on this subject of culture. 

[00:17:24] Kevin: Why is it so important is possibly the easier part of that question? You know, Why is it so important because ultimately it enables your strategic execution. It determined what behavioral norms are acceptable. It determines the way you operate as a business. It even influences things like organizational design. But when you ask people, what is culture, you get a very broad spectrum of responses. For some people it's all about values and beliefs. For other people. They describe it as outcome. So when you hear words, like we want a winning culture, we want a performance culture. Well, of course we do. Everybody does.

[00:18:09] But what you need to get to is something that you can communicate within your organization in an easy, straightforward way that people can understand. So usually that means taking a step back. Usually it means getting a set of aligned beliefs. Communicated consistently by your leadership team, which translate into the way we work, the way we behave and the design we put into our organization. And indeed the capabilities we choose to build all of these are influenced by culture.

[00:18:45] So for us, it's the beliefs that underpin the behaviors that drive the outcomes, not the outcomes themselves. 

[00:18:54] Pia: I think Kevin's really defined culture really simply there, it's the how of things, not just solely focusing on the what.

[00:19:02] Then I think we looked at climate from four different perspectives and this, and wildly different environments of how teams operate. So we looked at jazz, the operating theater. We looked at the community and then we looked at virtual teams through the metaverse. Completely differently. Let's start with Craig's Craig Scott, who gave us an incredibly fascinating view of the world of jazz. And this gives us a perspective of the way that information can flow and that type of environment. 

[00:19:38] Craig: Of course any kind of conversation or meeting can generate into a shouting Fest. I've certainly had my fair share of those in my life. Because of the fact that fundamentally people who are playing music yeah. Ostensibly should be listening to each other, if, even if the pianist does take that moment and be the leader in that context as a basis, if I'm playing with somebody and I play as an unforeseen chord change, you've only, you've got that long to work out what it is. That's not hard, unless you haven't had the experience or your dad have good hearing LA good oral sort of skills, in which case you work on them.

[00:20:18] And so, you know, always, it's bit like a school of fish, Oregon, so someone takes a leadership function and it doesn't have to be the pianist. It could be me, it could be a rhythmic thing that the drum is. If there's a drummer, or with a horn player, play something, but you didn't expect if all does the melody, so there's all kinds of ways. So what's happening is as you progress, even through the first kind of course, there is this leadership thing that's whizzing around. Someone says, suggests that. It's kind of almost I don't know, Chinese whispers or whatever you would call it. Now, if you're not allowed to say that where someone goes, but up in the next minute, it's blah, blah, the next minute it's blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. But it's the same thing. And so that's exciting. 

[00:20:55] When it doesn't work. Of course, is if people are not listening to, or indeed they're so set in their ways that they just can't listen. And there have been a couple of bands that I've been in my life with really super good players, but they were all so stubborn that they would not give way, this is the core change I'm going to play and I will play it until hell freezes over. So if you don't know and so familiar that's a problem, that takes away the spirit of what you're trying to do. 

[00:21:26] Dan: Louise before we get your comment, I'm going to have to say we're all giggling like school children here, because the AI, just for the listener, the transcript of of these shows we've been using to plan this, a summary in that the AI gets it wrong. And in that it says that Craig actually said, it's a bit like a school of fish I reckon. So someone takes a leadership function and it doesn't have to be the penis. And wig. We are being very childish here. Have a good giggle. It should never be the penis. I reckon we can agree on one thing. There's a lot of nuance around teams, but it should never be the penis. 

[00:22:00] Lucy: But often it is.

[00:22:00] Dan: Let's face it. We're here to crush the patriarchy. So let's say no to that. 

[00:22:07] Pia: I'll be very careful about using the word crusher at this point,

[00:22:12] Dan: he meant pianist. Everyone. It's pianist you children. Okay. Uh, so he was really talking about this climate. Wasn't there being able to flex together and you can get these fixed mindsets that won't move, but the idea, and I love the way he put it as a conversation. It w when he was prompted to say, is it disaster? You said well, any conversation. I love the way he thought of that. If we think our teams as a conversation, I thought was really powerful.

[00:22:35] Lucy: So this was this was a great interview with Craig. Very informative and funny. But also he talked to the three things that I really took away from it. One was around listening, the importance of listening to one another, within a team. The second part, which he referred to as the sort of leadership whizzing around like a school of fish, I think he's talking about distributed leadership so that the lady, the perceived leader or leadership team is not always going to be holding the leadership. It's going to be transferring across the business at different times. Everyone can display leadership at different times. I've got a good example of recently took about a second, but I think the other one actually ties into the Kevin interview where he was talking about culture and how actually you need this sort of open culture to allow for this sort of leadership to happen. I think between the two of them, we were really talking about that culture culture of distributed leadership.

[00:23:29] I had a recent example where we were very given very short notice for a very important client visit from an international client visit. And I can tell you the person who displayed the most leadership or who took her team and displayed the most leadership was our administrator absolutely took everything. So tell me what the intention is for this particular meeting and I'll make it happen. And she absolutely did. It was phenomenal.

[00:23:53] Dan: A lovely example, Lucien, we're going to shift a little bit, stay inside climate, but we're going to now go move into the operating room. Because we spoke in episode. To Martin Bromley who taught courageously and authentically about the tragic death of his wife on the operating table, who has dedicated his life since then to improving the human factors in high pressure situations, both in airlines and in operating theaters.

[00:24:19] He obviously explored deeply how. The sort of hard part of climate and the culture, the soft part of climate work together to actually reduce risk for those patients. So let's hear Martin.

[00:24:32] Martin: So systems are critical, but behaviors are also critical. If you've got a good system, you still need behaviors that support that. So we've talked about the standard operating procedures that make it easier to get it right. So we're talking about behaviors, for example, I've mentioned briefing, so anticipation is a very important behavior for a team to adopt. So this is about your briefing about what you're about to do. It's about considering threats and errors that might affect what you're about to do. And it doesn't matter what team you're in. Whether you're in an insurance company, whether you're in an aviation company, just before you start something, just making sure everybody's clear and everybody's thought through what may happen with whatever it is you're about to do. It's about mental rehearsal. It's about simulation. It's about training. You know, if you run an organization of any sword, you can't expect good teamwork. If people aren't trained in the basics, not just of teamwork, but actually of doing their job, so you need to make sure that people are competent before you get into the details and the teamwork. And that's anticipation is all about building an understanding so that you can think ahead and trading supports that. 

[00:25:51] The second thing is about having a, an open style. So specifically United 1 73, I mentioned participative management. So an open style is this ability to, as a leader to ask an open question. And it's literally just that. And then sitting back and listening. So we, we spent a lot of time in aviation with this. So for example, if I'm flying and something technical happens and there's maybe a fault in a system, I might be sitting there as a very experienced pilot thinking, oh, I know exactly what that is. I know exactly how to fix that. All we do is this and this. But what I actually do is I will turn to my colleagues and say, Okay, so, what's happening? Or I might say any ideas Or have you seen this before? Or how would you approach this? 

[00:26:42] Pia: I thought this was really interesting because it picked up on Craig's point around. Sometimes expertise makes you stubborn. And he said, y'all gonna, I'm going to play this chord until hell freezes over because this is what I'm going to do. And then in a critical incident, this is where we sometimes can become quite myopic in the way that we think. Whereas in actual fact, the ability to be expansive in the way that we think, and to be collaborative is probably what's going to solve the problem. But I just, yeah, I think. I think his life's work around trying to be able to create some of those behavioral systems to help us in those critical incidents to get the most thought it was an extraordinary interview.

[00:27:25] Lucy: I think you don't often have an interview or a show or something that you hear that's going to stay with you for life, but lifetime. But for me, Mountains the interview was was something I will, I don't think I'll ever forget. If I'm really honest, I think it really moved me greatly.

[00:27:39] I think I, I really took away the need for anticipation anticipate what could go wrong. Get clear about what possibly have thought it through in advance. I thought he's open style. I loved his comment about when they took the open style and yes. Ask questions. What was it's going to help the juniors to learn. We had a recent example of that, where we were setting up a mentoring program and someone caught up on the call and said I've been working at for 35 years, so what could I possibly learn? And I loved it because the head of HR stepped in and said or head of HR for that particular unit stepped in and just said, I would hope that everyone here has a very open style and is open to learning throughout a lifetime. Not just because you've worked here for a certain period of time and she was excellent.

[00:28:22] And then I think the other bit I really took away from Martin was actually to be the bigger person. I mean, Goodness he, I know Pia, you mentioned his magnanimous ways and I think yeah, we w there's a very big lesson there for all of us that even when tragedy happens and you're looking for someone to blame that actually you can turn it into something where you can educate the rest of the world. So it doesn't happen again.

[00:28:44] So one of the strongest parts that came out for me in Martin's incredibly challenging, but incredibly powerful story was when he spoke about the moment where the doctors got fixated on, on really finishing a task. And yet the others in the room I'll make the bold assumption. It was nurses and maybe other doctors, but they were silenced or that they knew the answer, but they didn't feel they had the voice to to voice it and to say what was happening. And I think one of, one of the nurses came in and said, I found a bed in ICU and the doctor looked and said, what are you, what do we need that for?

[00:29:18] And I think for listeners out there, this may have resonated for you the way it did for me, because how many meetings have you sat in your life when. Someone has said something could have been, your boss could have been the team leadership team. And this is, this is exactly right. This is the way we're heading. When you can see it, a car crash is about to happen or, I can remember accidentally saying in one meeting look, I think the train's left the station and we're just about to run and miss the last carriage. And I was completely shut down and it took me back to that moment of, and obviously it's a very different situation. 

[00:29:54] So for anyone listening, if you it's a good way to test your culture, actually, and whether you do have an open style within the team, you're operating in. Test it. If you disagree with something disagree, verbalize it, say it. If you, if your response from your team is a positive one, where they say, actually tell us more about that. We want to hear more about your thinking, you know you're in a culture of open style. If you get shut down in that first moment, you know the culture is not necessarily an open one.

[00:30:24] Pia: We then had a, such a privilege talking to David Burns at a Collective Leisure because what we, what he talked about was about inclusivity and diversity and how you create a working culture that really encourages everybody to be a part of the community.

[00:30:46] David: I, I feel that everybody starts with a positive intention, but I think the example I will give is we've got young one, one young boy called Thomas who would not get involved for the first three weeks, you know, uh, autistic and um, just would not get off the side bench. We've got another boy who um, Zade, who cerebral palsy, nonverbal in a wheelchair. And the way we got Thomas involved was to help with Zade pushing him around the sports hall. Now it's an absolute love story. These two soon as they walk into the sports hall, they're hugging each other. And that level of empathy that Thomas shored, his grandparents said he's have never, they've never seen that before. And, to put these two Children together with such diverse disabilities. Again, it really, I suppose, hits home around what inclusion is. Cause sometimes I think we can put, people with disability in one area, people who are able bodied in another, but when we're really looking at integrating diverse teams I think, really special things can evolve. 

[00:31:51] Dan: That's such a moving story is a beautiful thing. And I it's, some it re this was one of the episodes that for me changed my thinking about teams. I've always thought. It was naive, but the teams needed diversity, but actually I've realized that teams are for diversity. You know, That's actually, why you'd have a team is to harness different people in order to get something done in a better way. So this series really changed my thinking about that.

[00:32:17] Lucy: Uh, Law had exactly the same uh, revelation, actually. It was it was a cracker. I love that story, but it also made me think how much, No, the real importance of diversity in teams to change your outlook and to change the outcome. And I think it actually touches back in on what Martin Bromley was talking about with critical teams when he was saying, having that open, I think it was the open culture or the open style, and I think if you bring that combination together of having a diverse team that is highly inclusive of ideas, and you have an open culture where people are willing to listen to. Those ideas coming from you, whether you're trans male, female indigenous non-indigenous no matter what country you come from or no matter your creed, I think actually that's where the magic happens.

[00:33:07] Dan: I love that connection actually that open style being open to others, not just asking open questions. It's it's just such a habit that we have to work on it?

[00:33:17] And so we're continuing our journey and climate now. And as PAYE mentioned, we ventured into the metaverse. There's was a lot of fuss about this. Even in one of the world's biggest tech companies changed its name to Meta, And so, one of their platforms is Facebook. I don't know. I got a yes. So that's all you need to know.

[00:33:39] But um, we thought, obviously this is going to change teams completely you a time when we've all learned to work in a hybrid way, this is going to transform things. Ian Smith took us into the metaverse to explore what. Impact this could have for teams in the future. Let's hear what Ian had to say.

[00:33:57] so this was quite different. You find yourself in a, in an office environment there's clearly. Quite real, but cartoony. And I felt it was a bit like being in an, in a, in an, in the Incredibles. Environment. Yeah. A little bit of a film tech sort of cartoony film set, and you can, you've got lovely views outside. So I found it really basically pleasant to a pleasant environment to be. And then in the meeting room, we eventually got it to work so that when Ian said something, there was this moment. I remember when we're sitting together around this table and I was faffing about with my laptop as usual and Andean said, oh, And I looked up to where he was and he was pointing to a screen and I followed his hand and he was pointing to a slide that he was sharing on screen. So there was that, really those, that real 3d moment of hearing the sound from that direction and pointing. So it was, it definitely felt we felt more connected afterwards and we in then than in a flat Zoom call, I think we were we quite enjoyed that the human connection piece.

[00:35:01] Ian: I think the word visceral is really important there. I remember my, the first time I ever tried any VR was a couple of years ago. And I was at a conference and I just tried the first couple of seconds of a scary game that they had as a demo. And really, when you playing a regular game, you have a little person often on the screen that you are controlling and you want to stop them from getting killed or threatened or whatever it is, but it really does transform translate into a way from, I need to stop my personal on the screen from getting shot to it's me that's in danger. It's very visceral. 

[00:35:35] And that's great for games and people can really enjoy that kind of sensation, but that also applies and it works for. Non-gamers as well. So in zoom, we're talking on something quite analogous to zoom call now, and I can see you both, and you can see me on, in little square rectangles on the screen. But when we were doing the the experiment with Workrooms, we felt as though we're in that room.

[00:36:00] Lucy: I have not yet been in the metaverse because for Christmas I didn't get my ocular. What's it called? Not killer. What's it.

[00:36:10] Pia: Yeah.

[00:36:14] Lucy: Actually, I probably gave one of those to my six-year-old, but yeah, it didn't get my Oculus headset still waiting for that. But I have actually used VR and 3d goggles at work so everything Ian was talking about, I think is the future. And I think we will be reducing face-to-face. Even though I still think there is a really strong place for it, but um, um, so two places we've used at one was when I was working uh, in Cambodia and I actually traveled to Myanmar, sorry before traveling to Myanmar, we were trying to get across to some of our donors how what the conditions were like, what the water, sanitation and hygiene conditions were like in Myanmar. And, you know, you can tell a story. You can type it all up for them, but we actually put the VR goggles on their faces and far out you've got the Burmese coming up to you in 3d showing you the water and sanitation and hygiene conditions that are living with impact highly powerful donors handing over money, hand over fist.

[00:37:03] Second point was we've done this again with a client. Most recently actually, where they were pushing back on a bit of pricing for the design of an asset. So major piece of infrastructure won't give away which country, but I'll never forget the day that they kept saying, we can't understand why it's going to cost this much. And we said Of tell you why, how about we, we show you why. And we gave them a fly through of the asset and the lights went on. And from that minute they stopped pushing back on costs. They got it. 

[00:37:28] Dan: Great use of the technology. And as I said in that clip it it did give us some sense of togetherness and, I, and while there's some give, obviously it's lovely to get with people and break bread and so on. The, on the other side I always think is all the flights, all the climate impact all the time taken. So these technology things, I think that team leaders and team members can consciously roll into their vocabulary. It's a really exciting prospect. And Apple is launching their VR um, this year, I think, which will obviously be really interesting and world changing as it often is.

[00:38:02] Lucy: So it'll put it during the next one without Oculus headset on.

[00:38:06] Pia: Oh, we can't, it was little cartoons of ourselves, another version of avatar, which is also coming up very soon.

[00:38:15] So, um, So we've looked at clarity, it looks that importance of data coming through. And then I think we've really explored in this season around that climate of inclusion, connection, the communication and now we move to two key episodes around competence. And we really put competence in an intense situation. So we looked at it from a perspective of warfare and we looked at a perspective of when your house is burning down and the fire brigade turned up. So both potentially life or death. And we started first with Jim Molan, a general from a retired general from Iraq and now a Senator in Australian politics. And we really want to ask him the question what is the key critical competence required when you're in that life or death situation? And his answer was quite surprising.

[00:39:20] Jim: So it stylized very much and peep, and it comes it's. It's very interesting. When you look at a general and his staff, because it comes back to human nature. If you are a person who doesn't mind criticism who can take criticism, who understands the role of criticism, I used to define to my staffs what I considered to be failure. And that is that the generals in his office and the door's closed, and two staff officers standing outside the door, and they're saying, I told him this wouldn't work. He's tried this three times before and it didn't work on those occasions and it won't work again. And I'm not going to tell him again. That's failure, that is gross failure. But you know, the way we work it is that the way, certainly the way I worked it wasn't I could get 85% of my decisions relatively right, because I had 40 years service. I was experienced and I had only a certain amount of information was coming towards me.

[00:40:16] But to get me from 85%, not to a hundred percent correct, I needed desperately needed the staff to do that. And we would talk, we would have a w we would have a stylized situation. I would collect the staff and I would say, okay, what I intend to do is to go from a to b. Intelligence officer, what is the enemy likely to do to me? And they'd say, well, he'll go to D pull something into X and threaten Y and I'd say, okay, well, that's great if he does. I will prepare units to move to Y and X. And I will move other units prepared to do something if he hasn't, if he hasn't met it. Okay. Intelligence officer, what is he going to do?

[00:40:54] So, so you build up in a war game situation a very quick, because you got to make these decisions very quickly. And we, our standard decision-making process was about 40 minutes long and and we could make these decisions after a while because people said, if people understood that if you say to Molan, Sir no no that's wrong, we've tried that before and it didn't work, have a think about doing this boss and you'd say, okay, well let's try and do that. Or two people say two different things, you make the final decision and they back those decisions up. So it's a very intuitive decision-making process, but you've got to be someone who can take criticism because after the event we have, what's called the quick.

[00:41:37] Pia: We also had from Sandy Quirinale, who is actually a female firefighter from New Jersey and her insights were amazing around. What are the things that you need to be absolutely on your game, in a firefighting situation and how that translates into the team.

[00:41:58] Sandy: Before you even get to the incident where you do a size up, they do a size up about which team we have. And let's say they're all firefighters, we have different subtle skills. Some are more bossy, others are stronger. Some people are more, just agile with their tools. Uh, They have to make a quick size up and figure out how best to optimize the team very quickly. Like sometimes it's three minutes and we're on scene, 

[00:42:26] Pia: That's so fast.

[00:42:27] Dan: incredible. And sunday, you mentioned earlier that the things that can be four-letter words thrown around, it can be quite blunt. What, what are you, are you, is there a lot of feedback goes on in this team, but you know, built on that level of trust you, do you, get, what does that look like? 

[00:42:42] Sandy: Everybody really. I mean, for the most part we all get along. And when I say we have four letter words, or they're kind of funny and they're all set in jest and everything because we've all worked together, so intensely, uh, we know each other we don't necessarily all like each other super, super well, we're not all best friends. We're not at all similar we're at different ages. Talents and skill sets and health levels and everything. But, uh, we do know each other well. So usually when someone says something, we know where it's coming from, it's usually meant with the good 

[00:43:21] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:43:23] Sandy: back. So it's not a problem 

[00:43:26] Pia: And d and what's the debrief process. We again, talking to the general, he was talking about hot debriefs, which would be in a fire situation, but do you take the learnings and how do you do that process after an incident? 

[00:43:41] Sandy: Yeah, absolutely. Some, sometimes we have formal debriefs back at the station on our monthly Wednesday night meeting, but so often we have debriefs right then and there, we just. An incident, uh, a structure fire, or motor vehicle accident. And right there, the chief will grab us or one of the officers, or even our chief engineer who has a lot of experience grab us and just say like, Hey, this went well, this didn't go so well. you know, I've been told by the chief, like, where's your tool? And I'm like I have a water can, and I've got a thermal imaging camera. He's like, that's not a tool. You know? so they tell you right away, like you're not holding a tool. Where's your tool. I got off to go to the attic fire and it was like a perfect. Pull up the line, but right then and there, the chief engineers, like a other way, the house is because the chief had parked in a different driveway and he's like other way. So you get feedback on the spot sometimes, even during an incident. 

[00:44:43] Dan: So loosely, there's a hefty bit a theme there. Interesting. You talking about competence about about giving and receiving feedback. I've seen you in action on this with some skills. What's your take on doing this well?

[00:44:59] Lucy: Oh dear. Actually I was just laughing at him, pointing the house at the wrong house. Cause I think that would probably be me. If I was a 

[00:45:04] Livia: we debriefs back at the

[00:45:07] Lucy: house 

[00:45:07] Dan: house burned down another one. Very damp. 

[00:45:11] Lucy: Exactly right. Yes, remind me never to go into firefighting. I think feedback is absolutely essential. And I absolutely hated it in times and love it at times. And I think I had a pleasant moment recently were asked two very senior engineers in my team. One of them I said can you give me and some feedback? I said, you're defensive. And I said, no, I'm not. And you just, it's an immediate he's had a garden, we had a good chuckle at that. So I make, I think the key with feedback is be prepared to hear the response that you don't really want to hear. And I we had a good laugh about it, but I did think about it afterwards and really thought hard about how I could come back to that and almost apply that. I think it was the box breathing that someone was talking about before. I can't remember who mentioned it, but in terms of, I think it might have been Martin actually taking that step back, taking a breath and really thinking what that person's saying. 

[00:46:03] I think the best thing you can do is give an example of what was done or not done. And talk to the person around that. But I think when you give generic feedback, like you're just. Crappy job or you didn't do a great job, did you? That's really not going to elicit the right reaction. So my tip for new players out there who are dead scared of giving feedback is to be really specific and hard on the facts. Which I suppose in Sandy's case, you had to be, it was pretty hot and on the spot and she got the message very quickly.

[00:46:31] Dan: So true. So true Lucy, and we've finished our competence segment talking actually about mental health. We talked about Chuck Anderson, who with great authenticity, shared his own his own experience of mental health challenges. I thought this was a really interesting episode because in this world now, So much when I started leading teams, but you going to be as a team leader and team member dealing with mental health issues and they can be visible in the workplace now, which is such a positive mood, but it can also be quite challenging. So let's um, we talked to talk to Chuck about we invited him to talk about mental health in teams and about, and about how compassion can emerge uh, through good teamwork. Let's hear Chuck.

[00:47:15] Chuck: So I find that leaders and managers they're often held to this really high standard, uh, they need to perform, make sure the team is in line. Make sure they perform, meet KPIs, etc. But often I don't think that they get the time to reflect on themselves and think about self-compassion. And think about the times when you might not make the right decision, the perfect decision. You might not say that the perfect thing to your employees you will have times where you don't always do the right thing and that's okay because that makes you human. And I think that managers and leaders should be a little bit more self-compassionate towards themselves. I think there's a lot of benefit and value in that. And also there is a book by Dr. Kristin Neff. It came out in 2011. It's called self-compassion. If anyone wants to learn more about self-compassion, it's a fantastic book.

[00:48:07] It's something that I've read and that changed my life completely because I didn't fully understand what self-compassion was. And it'll teach you a lot about that also around self care, take care of yourself, because if you can't take care of yourself, really, you don't have the skills and the time and the energy to support your employees. And I think that as far as how. Managers approach their teams. Empathy is super important. Looking at your team members individually, everyone has their own struggles, their own challenges, but how I'm struggling with this the pandemic could be different than someone else, but be open to that. This opened our season two and I thought, you and I talked about this Dan, it was a real sign of the times in a really positive way, because it's a conversation that can be had transparently and supportively across teams. It probably still takes a little bit of a step for team leaders to broach that, but I think this is a really great place to conclude the wrap-up in many respects, because this is where care and inclusion and real psychological safety needs to be happening in the workplace.

[00:49:23] Pia: Bit of a worrying I think we've talked about this before. One and eight have been to see a doctor regarding mental health issue in Australia. So it's real. And I think it was really the have that conversation. 

[00:49:37] Lucy: Ah um, yeah, this, this interview gave me goosebumps and it made me think hooray, we are finally talking about this. We're talking about mental illness. We're talking about compassion for our colleagues and for our employees. It brings a bit of a tear to my eye to think about, but I remember a few years ago a, a dear colleague of mine committed suicide and I called a uh, helpline that was supplied by work. And it was I was told it was anonymous, but the first thing they ask you is what should they where do you work? And I remember being so embarrassed that I hung up and was like, no, I don't, I'm not going to do this. And that was a couple of years ago.

[00:50:11] My own barriers around mental health and getting support for myself in that situation. And now I think about the wonderful the story we just heard really and think about that, you know, at the, at work, at the moment I was interviewing someone a little while back and that person opened up to me in the interview about his challenges with mental health. And I said That's incredible. And I'm really, this is the type of culture I want in my team where can be open and honest with one another and you've just been open and honest with me in the first sort of 10 minutes of meeting me. Thank you. And we were able to talk about how that plays out and what support that person might need.

[00:50:47] Um, so I've had to, and then another recent situation where a colleague was telling me about challenges at home with a family member who has mental illness. So it's very much front of mind. And I think also on steroids, particularly having still going through COVID and the mental strain that has sort of sort of sped up or put the pressure it's put on people. So A, I think it's wonderful we're talking about it. B I think that, that part of take care of yourself, self-compassion but also being able to share challenges with your colleagues is um, is fundamental. I think it comes back to the, I think it was, um, Suni actually that spoke about this, about psychological safety, or it may have been in your season one, we were talking about psychological safety, Jess, might've spoken about it. And and I think creating those spaces in your teams where people can feel, they can speak up about their challenges and how they're handling it and what help they need.

[00:51:38] Dan: So true. And I loved what Chuck said that this is actually quite challenging for team leaders like you to suddenly have to deal with mental health. You know, It's a new part of our repertoire as team leaders, isn't it? And he just, he was really reassuring. So you don't have to have the answers. You just have to have questions. And that open mindset again is just to be, to be, to listen. So it's, you don't have to suddenly become a counselor or a therapist or something. So I thought that was a really reassuring point.

[00:52:02] Lucy, we are at the end of our clips and I'm what I'm going to ask you an unfair question that is, have you seen a theme that people can take away from season two of We Not Me?

[00:52:12] Lucy: Do you know, I think I'm going to declare season two, the theme of trust, actually. Because I keep hearing that and then I'll talk you through it. So I think the, I keep thinking back to the trust equation actually and the trust equation being credibility plus reliability. Plus intimacy divided by self, self-interest so credibility, obviously being your, technically credible reliability to deliver on time and keep your promises. Intimacy's not what you think, becoming lovers with your colleagues. It's more around people feeling safe about your agenda and that they can actually, that you're going to keep their information confidential. And then obviously divided by self-orientation so that you've actually got the best interests of the group at heart, rather than self. And I think when we see across clarity, climate and competence and we see the wonderful people that you've been interviewing there is this theme of creating a trusting environment.

[00:53:08] And if we, if we look at that trust equation and say, what are the two elements that really jump out and the themes that have come through that, that I think it's really about creating a safe environment for your people, where they can, which is intimacy, and then really dividing your dividing all of that with yourself, orientation and making sure your the best interests of the group in front of self. But what a wonderful season you two are. Amazing. Thank you for sharing your magic.

[00:53:36] Dan: thank you. We just put the guests to be honest, but loosely, it's been an absolute delight as usual to, to hear your take on that and really bringing some of that thinking to, to to a practical point for our listener. So thank you so much for joining us to do that. Season two, wrap.

[00:53:52] Lucy: Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Pia. And no, your feedback will be gratefully appreciated. See you.

[00:53:57] Pia: Wow. I mean, that is such a rich season. And, um, I really hope that's a lot of value that's been created by really sort of extracting those themes. And, you know, we might be thinking like, what are we going to plan for this season ahead? But it doesn't kind of work out that way. It just emerges from the conversation and what these wonderful gash. We got some extraordinary guests, but what will emerge will create the flavor. When we look back on this again in a, in another six months time at the end of the season. So very exciting. So let's jump straight to it. Who is the first cab off the rank?

[00:54:39] Dan: So, um, next week we'll be talking to Janet and Reed Boswell. They're based in Boston, but they do, we're gonna be talking to them about teams in disaster relief. So, um, it'll be really interesting to see how they've pulled teams together on their. Um, on their journeys to, uh, to Haiti, to, to support the population there, medically and bringing teams together to do that. So can't wait to speak to them and, uh, and get the next season up and running.

[00:55:07] But that's it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. if you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, if you have a moment, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast player. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:55:30] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.