Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Hello and welcome to The 10, 000 Things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
Ali: I'm Joe Loh.
And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show we have a bit of a women's magazine type topic.
Count me in then.
Supermarket aisles.
I think Ali wanted to do New Year, New Me.
Okay.
Sam: Well, so you think this is a bit of a tabloid topic.
I'm going to prove you wrong.
Anyway, go on.
Ali: No, it was more about sort of future thinking and goal setting and
has that worked for you or do you have anything you've actually really achieved?
Or do we all sort of do that same thing every New Year's where we like,
you know, I'm going to do this better and I'm going to do that better.
I'm not going to do this and then like two weeks in we've given up.
I'm going to go for a walk and I'm going to journal, I'm going to have
my lemon water and all that shit.
Joe: So the starting point is probably most people think New
Year's resolutions are bullshit.
Yeah.
But, see, I, we did a whole episode on how much I hate Christmas,
but I actually love New Year's.
Yeah, you're a
Sam: yay sayer for New Year's.
I
Joe: am, and I did, I wrote down heaps of resolutions this year, and so far,
what is it, the 10th of Jan or something?
Hey, hey, dragon.
Yeah, all of them
Sam: are solid.
Well, I think your attitude towards it is probably A pretty key component.
Also, you've always had, well, no, you've got good self knowledge
these days, so that would have enabled you to set the right sort
of goals and manage them properly.
Joe: Yeah, so I don't know if you, do you guys have ones you want to talk?
I've got a few.
Yeah, for sure.
Some I wouldn't talk about in public, but some I'm happy to.
Ali: Yeah, like, I mean, I, I think, like, whether you use
Sam: Well, you're going to try no nut November this
year, but that's just between.
You know, you and no one, Jesus
Joe: Christ, Sam, my kids listen to this show.
Sam: I'm just trying to think of something embarrassing.
Sorry,
Ali: I was going to say, like, I think if you, whether you use New Year's as
just like a reset point or any day of the, I think the thing I've learned is it
doesn't matter what day of the year it is.
And.
I decided to make a few small changes late last year that I've
stuck with some of and other things I haven't, I'm doing miserably at.
And then, then like similarly, like, so I mean, smoking has been
the biggest thing of five days.
Five days, I'm on day five.
So, you know,
Sam: So did you have a post, did you have a little bit of a, a
Siggy Blitz like just before that?
Ali: Oh, absolutely.
Okay.
Yeah.
Like, like a, like a binge or a blowout.
Like I always do that.
But, um, And you've just turned
Joe: 40?
40.
Ali: Yep.
Good time to quit smoking.
Well, that was, that was my thing.
I wanted to do it by the time I turned 40, which was in December and I didn't do it.
And then I was like, I'm going to do it at New Year's.
Didn't do it.
Joe: I don't know what the science is on the cancer and stuff.
Oh, I
Ali: mean that, that, let's not talk about it.
I was going to say it's pure.
Joe: 30 is a good cutoff for smoking if you don't want cancer.
Oh, no,
Ali: I, I, I know.
I've been smoking since I was 14.
I know that there will be absolutely, I'm not oblivious that there wouldn't
be any, some damage or anything like that, but it's purely financial.
It's purely financial.
There's no, I could not give a shit if I could still smoke and it was cheap.
Sam: You're still not convinced you're going to live a good long life.
That's the issue.
Ali: No, so I don't, I literally could, I like it and I enjoyed it and I like,
yeah, I saw no downside to it other than the financial, but now it is just.
It's completely prohibitive, so.
Sam: It's not like it's slowing down your chances of running a
half marathon, I guess, at this
point.
Ali: No, it's just sending me broke.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I just weighed it up and I'm like, I'd rather a holiday.
So that, that's my goal is a holiday, you know, with the
money I'm just putting it aside.
So, um.
Sam: All the taxes worked, Joe.
Yeah.
Ali: So like, as a public health measure, like, I mean, it's a tax on the poor
and I have a real problem with it apart from that, like, um, same with the fine
system, like it's a tax on the poor.
yeah, so, I mean, I didn't do it on New Year's, but I thought, no, I, I was in
the mindset of, I got everything ready so that I thought one day it's just
going to happen and it'll be the day.
And like I had all my.
Like Nicorette, like replacement things.
And, you know, I mean, um, he got organized, got organized, made sure
it was there so that I just didn't have, cause any excuse it's like,
as an addict, it's like any excuse.
Oh, well, today was a really hard morning.
Or like, this was really like, it didn't, I didn't even know it's my coffee or
I've got a few left in the packet.
Or it was absolutely.
Oh, this will just be my last packet.
I think I've said that after every packet, you're triggering
Sam: me, right?
Oh, I'm sorry.
It's good.
It's
Ali: good for me.
But like the, you know, I've been saying that for over a decade that, you
know, really genuinely wanted to quit.
So, but then like the other day I ran out during the day and I thought nuts.
This is it.
I've got the stuff here, let's just fucking start it.
And now it's sort of genius.
The thinking of it behind it now is like, oh no, I've already gone two days.
I'm not wasting that uhhuh to go back.
And That's right.
Seems to be the, yep.
Almost like the sunk cost fallacy.
Yes.
Like weaponize.
I'm weaponizing that thinking.
Yeah.
And it's like, no.
Well, I've gone like, yeah, it's, it's coming up five
days now, so I'm not going to.
You know, I'm just not going to waste that and go back to it because
I really, it's more that I don't want to go through that, this again.
I'm just so done with it.
yeah, so that's my thinking.
And then, so, I mean, I have quit before successfully for like, you
know, for, I think it was over
Sam: a year.
Okay.
So you've got to beat that now.
Oh, that's yeah.
Well, that's a, that's an aspiration.
Ali: Yeah.
It's yeah.
So, I mean, I'm not saying I've quit until like I've, I'm a year in at
least, and then I'll say I've quit.
I'll be just, I'm quitting because I know, you know, it's very easy to
fuck up the, I'll think of an excuse.
And I mean, I've already made like a hundred excuses for myself already
thinking, Oh my God, you know, but that's one of the, I mean, like
it's, but I real, the thing I've realized over the years, because I
used to very much be of the mindset.
Okay.
New year, reset.
I'm going to implement all the good habits that I mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
that are just simply, I do not have.
Yeah.
You've you've overdone it in the past.
Yeah.
I don't have the willpower to make that work, so, but one thing at a
time, if I can master one thing and then it's just gently adding on, okay,
now I'm gonna add on the next thing.
Mm-Hmm.
. Now I'm gonna start cutting back the coffee.
Mm-Hmm.
I'm not there yet.
But then, you know, and same as I, I'm going to, I mean, my other
one was like, I'd like to go for a walk every day, but I'm obviously
a little bit limited at the moment.
Just for those who don't know, I'm working with a walking stick at the moment.
So, yeah, so that will come with physio hopefully in time.
just, yeah, adding those things in.
Slowly and just being kind to myself that at least I'm doing this one thing, because
like my psychologist said to me, like the motivation doesn't come beforehand.
It never comes beforehand.
It's once you've done it, that's right.
That's what spurs you on.
So yeah, so it's just one thing at a time.
No one ever feels
Sam: ready.
No.
Ali: For anything.
For anything.
It's like, Oh, you're going to go on a diet tomorrow.
No, I'm not.
Sam: No, I'm not.
That's right.
I'm going to whatever it is.
And I'm sure Joe could, you know, chip in with experiences
along those lines, but, but yeah.
The key to anything is what, almost what you did there is a, like, to me,
that's a case study in how to do it, where you just ran out one day and went,
okay, well, I guess that's it then.
So to let it sneak up on you is, is really, in my mind,
one of the best ways to do it.
The mind is very wily, as you've just been describing, we'll constantly
find excuses and justifications.
It's very good at like cornering the executive function and,
um, Oh, well, it was me.
It wasn't my decision and like, and so on.
We're so good at deferring responsibility, shifting it elsewhere.
and that's for a reason because executive function itself is highly
overstated and you know, Joe will even go as far as saying it's.
Perhaps an illusion entirely free will that is, uh, but the, the two
lessons in what you did, like let it sort of trick yourself into doing it.
Don't make a big deal about the when and just sort of like, oops, I'm, Oh, oops.
I forgot to smoke for two days.
Like that's ideal.
And then the other psychology that's kicked in there, the sunk cost fallacy
or, there's a name for this exact thing because it's not a, it's not a negative,
like you've made this large investment, it's not going well, but you're going to
continue throwing good money after bad.
That's the sunk cost fallacy.
This business is failing.
Let's borrow more money.
or, you know, this strategy hasn't been working, let's do more of it.
In your case, it's a successful strategy with small gains and you're very Very
attached to those small games and you want to shepherd them and increase them.
So it's kind of like a nest egg effect or something like that you once you once
you get to any kind of land It doesn't matter like five minutes is a landmark.
Yeah for some people
Ali: and like I'm not a journaler and I I did buy I bet every year
I buy one and use it for about a week Well, the big thing about
Sam: journals is they give you data to refer to later But this
Ali: one is in particular has like a whole thing on habit tracking yeah, that's what
stuff and I thought that that would be useful to me and I then put like, and one
of the things was it actually gets you to break it down into really measurable
goals, which is something I do in therapy.
And it's like half an hour without a cigarette, an hour without a cigarette,
a day without a cigarette, like two days.
So yeah.
And you just seeing the little ticks, there's something
very satisfying about that.
Progress bar.
Yeah, it is.
And so, and I, I feel like that's sort of helping keeping me on track
as well because It's like, especially with something like that, whereas
like something like weight loss, which is obviously something I've
really struggled with over the
Sam: years.
I would say that's probably more difficult, wouldn't you say, than
Ali: tackling smoking?
Yes and no, because like the, the, you can't see, unless you're doing
it in a really unhealthy way, which I don't recommend, you can't see
Sam: really measured.
And what were the unhealthy ways for it?
Keto?
Ali: Yeah.
Or just like binging and purging.
That was my go to when I was, but, um, you could see really big results,
in a really short period of time.
Sam: The illusion of progress, but illusory progress beware.
Yeah, exactly.
Ali: Where, you know, whereas, you know, to do it, you know, properly,
you're not, you know, it'll be.
In 12 weeks you'll say, Oh, I've dropped a few kilos and that's
completely healthy, right way to do it if that's what you need to do.
And
Sam: it actually feels better because you haven't been doing this crazy
Ali: thing.
You don't feel deprived.
You don't feel like, yeah, you're not, you're not watching every single thing.
You just, it just becomes a bit more of a lifestyle change.
And it
Sam: feels more normal.
And like, this is a word that gets used a lot in therapy in my
experience, like I remember saying on a pod ages ago, like in people.
I have all kinds of hoity toity, high minded language around therapy,
but actually what you're doing a lot of the time is actually trying
to find really ordinary words to talk about really ordinary things.
And Adam's been telling me about norma normal a lot lately and
like, Oh, that felt normal, did it?
Like he'll say about, you know, after I've told a little anecdote, I'm
like, yeah, actually it felt normal.
Ali: Yeah.
It becomes your new normal, those patterns and habits.
And then it's that, I suppose it's like.
I mean, I've never, I've never tried hypnosis therapy or whatever, but
it's sort of, I suppose that's sort of, in a sense, I can understand the
psychology of that, it's tricking you into thinking I'm not a smoker,
because that's what it is, it's like, oh, that's not what I do, whereas your
normal would, so that's, so I'm still very much of, oh, in the morning,
that's what I would do, is I would have a Cigarette or five with my coffee
Yeah.
So it's, yeah.
Yeah.
Whereas actually, like, no, that's not what I'm doing now.
And Mm-Hmm, . Yeah.
But then all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're like, oh, I'm,
you're not even thinking about it.
That's right.
I wanna get to that point.
That's, and I know that's years away.
Oh, no, no, no.
Sooner than that, I think, uh, no, no.
It's so ingrained in me, I
Joe: I think five days in you've probably passed the worst of it.
Ali: Yeah, no, not at all.
Like, and I'm still, I'm on nicotine.
Passed the worst.
Well, if you haven't kicked the nicotine, that's different.
I haven't kicked the nicotine, which I mean, Yeah, well, you're still,
I'm still very much, and look, even, You've got that tied to your back.
even if I have that tied to my back for six to twelve months or
even longer, Is still cheaper.
That's, that's, that's my thing.
Sam: Oh yeah.
Cause of course, NRT does cost
Ali: money.
It does cost money, but it's not nearly what, um, yeah,
Sam: cigarettes.
What the darts cost.
Yeah.
So I
Joe: guess just thinking about your experience of quitting
cigarettes at the start of the year.
I guess one of the reasons I'm so bullish on New Year's resolutions is like 7th of
Jen was eight years alcohol free for me.
Yeah.
So that comes a week after.
A week after New Year's every year is another year that I haven't picked up a
Sam: drink.
Yeah, can I, can I butt in?
Oh, because you quit on New Year's Day.
No, no, I
Joe: quit on, my last drink was 6th of January 2016 at the MCG.
Oh, well, nice.
And I looked up the game the other day and Glenn Maxwell made a hit of
50 that night and I left before the end of the game and put my half a beer
down because I was blind drunk and I wasn't feeling anything anymore.
I was just like I can't stop drinking and I'm not even enjoying it, enjoying
it, drinking against my own will.
Oh yeah, I
Sam: know
Joe: that feeling.
So so it's for me to overcome that one addiction that was
really going to take me down.
It's paved the
Sam: way for all sorts of other
Joe: things.
Yeah, so now I hit the start of the year and I can set things up.
With a lot of confidence now that I'm gonna, just gonna do them, you know.
Ali: It's like the motivation, it's come after the fact that you've got
this big flex that you've been able to, well, I've given up drinking, so
Sam: it's huge.
It's a huge, huge flex.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah, so that gives me a new perspective on things, I think.
Definitely.
So I, I do think the New Year's.
What about you, Sam?
Do you have Well, new Year's news
Sam: reset for sure.
I mean, I was about to ask you another question though, which was
about do you believe in that thing about like, the body's being replaced
after seven years and like Mm.
Never
Joe: heard that.
Yeah.
Well, all the cells, all your cells
Ali: regenerate over a period of time to a point.
I mean, if, I mean, obviously some things don't like because Yeah, look, I, I
Joe: put a photo up for my eight years sober on social
media and had a, a friend, huge.
Contact me who's not, you know, he doesn't mind criticizing me a fair bit, but he
said, oh, wow, you look You look, you look a lot younger than us who've kept drinking
and I was like, Oh, it's just nice light at sunset, which is where I took
Ali: the photo.
But no, that is so true.
And like, I would say my observation and particularly the culture around, you know,
like wine o'clock or, you know, mother's drinking and all that sort of stuff.
And my observation
Sam: of, yeah, beaches love wine and I am a beach for
Ali: sure.
It's going to be five o'clock somewhere in the world.
And like the women who have kept, like, and I say this as like someone
who, Oh, this is going to be good.
She's going to be judging some school mums.
Judge some
Sam: school mums.
Oh yes.
This is what I'm here for.
Should be a new segment.
Joe: Ali judges mums down at the high school.
Sam: I've got some to chip in too.
But as a working mother, as a working
Ali: mother myself.
The ones that have Continued to hit the booze really hard.
You can see it.
And I say this as someone who is a smoker and a heavy smoker.
And I continually get mistaken.
I would say younger often than I, my age.
And smoking
Sam: definitely has an effect on aging.
Ali: Yeah.
But, but I would say I don't have the, like, I haven't like, it's
not like I haven't had Botox.
I mean, do Botox, whatever.
I have no, there's no judgment around that, but like I haven't had to
do that yet because I haven't felt like it's necessarily aged my face.
I don't have the big heavy lines yet, but then I've got friends who've
never smoked, but who have been heavy drinkers, and you can see that on
their face, and it is, it really is, I'd say, like, alcohol is a huge,
like, I sort of gave that up, really.
People just get
Joe: a bit puffy, don't they?
Oh, there's more to it.
No,
Sam: no,
Ali: no.
It's, it's the lines.
You get
Sam: puffy the day after a big night in a few days, but it's the long term.
It's this
Ali: withdrawn, sort of, drawn, sort of, in your, in your cheeks that sort of hold.
I mean, that happens as you age anyway, but like, there is.
It's, you can just tell in the face with the lines and the hollowing
out and the cheeks and stuff.
There is a real, it does age you.
It really does.
Yeah.
It
Sam: really, really does.
It really does.
Yeah.
I noticed it.
Like I'm going to boast.
Like, so I had a completely agree with you.
Vanity is such a great motivator and never feel any shame about using vanity as a
motive to do something good for yourself or I had a very affirming moment late last
year where I had dinner with some, like an old friend I hadn't seen for a long time.
Uh, you know, Kath, me and, and this old mate, um, a mutual old
friend, and she said, Oh, you're looking, you're looking well, Sam.
You're looking healthy.
You're looking better than you've looked in years.
And I'm like, didn't really drink this year.
And she's like, Oh, that'll do it.
And then we got onto the topic of some people we know who are overdoing it.
So still, so, you know, and.
It's a, I just feel a tremendous sense of relief that I'm just not under the
spell of it, like, to the same degree.
But I'll say this, the flip side of what I just said, over Christmas,
New Year's, I did have more than I normally would, and what I normally
would have is zero, Yeah, most weeks, but then Christmas, New Year's,
yeah, it snuck up on me a little bit.
Nothing like previous, just completely overdoing it and
becoming just profoundly miserable by mid, like early, early January.
You're an interesting
Joe: case because you haven't ruled anything out, substance wise.
No.
I don't, I don't.
Like, you speak a little bit on this podcast having drunk less.
Drink less.
And I don't, I mean, I don't rate that
Sam: much.
No, no, you're all about just don't just rule it out completely.
Yeah, because
you're
Joe: still going to be like, oh, I went and had that massive night.
So you still experience that hangover.
I still get the downsides.
Not drinking wasn't about looking better or being physically healthier.
And it wasn't financial.
It was spiritual.
It was like,
Sam: how bad the existential angst was.
Can I make, can I make something clear?
The number one reason was for mental health for me and for
the benefit of my children.
I say spiritual, but vanity has been a great ongoing
motivator to keep, to maintain
Ali: it.
Yeah.
Like, so I was a very heavy drinker before I had my son.
Like I'm very, very heavy.
And yeah, and it was like a real shock that I was pregnant.
It's like, okay.
So it just, it was like a kick up the ass that I just sort of forced sobriety that I
was just able to kind of leverage ongoing.
And I will still have a cocktail maybe like on the odd occasion when I, you know.
Decide not to be a weird cat on the shelf.
I'll go out and have a cocktail.
Ali
Joe: went to Queensland and started sending me photos of all these cocktails
and all this booze she was buying.
And eventually I was like, Ali, I'm an alcoholic.
I'm so sorry.
Could you like not do that?
Sam: Send me a picture of a virgin pina colada thing.
Yeah.
Ali: Like, I'm so sorry.
Like it was just, I just did not.
I found this
Joe: great gin.
I'm like, Ali, fuck it up.
One day at a time.
I'm just trying not to drink over here.
Yeah.
Sam: It's the summer as well.
Yeah.
Ali: And like, I just.
Just because I've been able to, I suppose I would say have actually
a really healthy relationship with alcohol and that I really have just,
uh, I don't ever drink to excess.
I can count on one hand, the amount of times I've drunk to
excess since I've had my son.
And that's, and all of those times have actually been like when you're
at a party and someone's just topping up your drink and I've lost count.
that's happened a couple of times.
I get an engagement and that sort of thing.
That's the only time I've ever had too much since.
Sam: I've had my fun.
That's interesting.
You know what's so funny?
Just earlier, I don't know how this popped into my head.
I was thinking about it, I was like, I wonder if I could goad Ali into
having a big night at some point.
But like, yeah, I probably couldn't.
Ali: You couldn't.
You couldn't.
I, the, I was talking to somebody recently about this.
In the name of the pod and research and whatnot.
What it is, is I feel like shit most of the time.
The idea of being hung over.
Is so unappealing that that is the motivator to like, to stop.
I just, I hate the idea of throwing up.
I hate the idea of ever being sick again.
I had, you know, I like the last time I, yeah, I was sick.
I actually had to take them, like, you know, hungover.
I'll give you the tip.
I took the Monday off work as well.
Cause it took me like, I was like, I don't ever want to feel like this again.
Sam: I took a Friday off a few years ago for that
Ali: reason.
Five years ago.
And I'm like, I'm still, it's still so
Joe: I'll give you the tip Ali.
No one stops.
Drinking alcohol because of how they feel after three drinks.
People stop drinking alcohol because of how they feel the next day.
Sam: Yeah.
Yeah.
The depression, the anxiety.
Ali: Yeah.
All of that.
Like I just, I just, like, I feel like shit most of the time anyway.
I just don't want to induce that in any way, shape or form.
No.
Sam: And I've started to even anticipate it.
Like on Christmas, I had like four, yeah, four glasses of wine, I think.
And.
Not big pause either, but I could already, as like I started to sober up,
you know, like four in the afternoon or whatever, I'm like, yeah, I can already
feel the effects on my mental health.
Like as we
Joe: speak.
You don't stop at four in the afternoon.
You've got to keep drinking for the rest of the night.
Oh, well, that's what I used to do, of course, because that's how you don't,
cause that, that's how you avoid.
That's why I can't drink because I don't want that, ever want
that feeling of it wearing off.
Well, the
Sam: delayed, well, of course.
And, and one of the things that really helped me with addiction, Yeah, it's one
of those things I want to actually talk about it on the pod one day properly.
Uh, I've stumbled across this phenomenon of delay discounting.
So it's been well studied in the psychological literature.
It's one of those ones that's actually well proven.
And we know this is well proven because marketers use it all the time.
And they have proper data on what works and what doesn't.
So I'll give you an example of delay discounting.
Buy this, get cash back, right?
But, you have to go and fill this thing out to get the cash back.
Now, if you had, and It's not instant.
You're not getting the money till a few days.
Joe: Yeah, that's like a Medicare rebate for a psychologist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Sam: exactly.
Oh, you hate it.
You hate
Joe: doing it.
You spend 180, you're going to get 130 back.
But
Sam: you've got to do the legwork to get it.
And guess what?
The government's relying on that.
That you just won't do it.
That you won't do it.
And these marketers that offer you cash back on purchases, they're relying on
the majority of people not doing it.
How does that relate to addiction?
Okay.
So great question.
So delay to it's a well proven effect.
That's what I'm establishing here.
So now how this relates to say alcohol, cigarettes, all of it, gambling, is
that the present you is underrating how future them We'll be impacted
by the actions of present you.
So like the amount of drinking you're doing now, present you's enjoying it in
theory, future you's going to pay the cost, but you discount that in your mind.
And the gambler discounts the fallout of having no money.
And the smoker discounts the health effects later in life
because there's a delay.
So it's, it's a, it's an, well, it's related to present bias and, you know,
salience error and all that, all those sort of classic cognitive biases.
But for me, it was a particularly interesting one because it spoke
to me about what my behavior was.
And it goes beyond addiction to, well, yeah, so delay discounting
the effect of the hangover and, you know, the effect on behavior, uh, and
the effect of that on other people.
Like it's all this stuff that's downstream that we can easily
write off in the present.
But it also applies to positive things that you want to do.
You're delay discounting the positive effect of something, of taking an
action, and uh, you know, of working on that novel at last, or whatever, you
know, everyone's got these ambitions that they may not be getting around to.
Or we delay discount the pleasure that we'll get from calling a friend,
or organizing a social event in the future, because it's in the future,
like we're not, I'm not getting the benefit now, so we'll delay discount it.
So there are, without going too far, I to a degree agree with the
people that say this It's not.
This might be one of the single most important little
psychological insights people need.
Certainly was true for me.
The more I thought about it, the more I could see the effects of it in my life.
And I just became determined to Basically bring future and
present me into alignment.
I suppose that's how
Ali: like, like techniques like visualization or some people call
it manifestation, that would work.
It does.
Because you're, you're visualizing the impact of your future self.
You're trying to make it seem more real.
Seem more real.
Like, yeah, like you're imagining.
This is how, like, this is what I'm doing once I've achieved this already.
And rather than, yeah.
And, and yeah, like, I suppose, yeah.
Helping use that as a motivating factor, but it is so easy to, in
that moment, discard that vision.
And you think, ah, Fuck it, I'll have the bowl of ice cream, but like, you're
imagining yourself looking, you know, great in bathers or whatever, but you're
just like, nah, fuck it right now.
Well, that's why
Sam: weight loss is such a pernicious one, because of course, most people
that want to lose weight are up against it on a biological level.
And like, you know, it's been a really, really, really long time
since I thought anything judgmental about a person based on their size.
And I don't say that.
To like, Oh, look at me.
I'm so virtuous.
Like I'm woke.
I've like absorbed the messages from the body positive community.
No, I just, it came from my own painful realizations about how no one's
perfect and like everyone's struggling.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
It's, it's, it's
Joe: really hard.
Well, I think you've done well to start off with a good, even if it wasn't a
new year's resolution, because the last month was like you were going into a
period of not working the longest period.
You hadn't worked in years and you
Sam: had.
And
Ali: surgery.
And surgery, yeah.
Yeah.
It's been a month.
Joe: It's a brutal, brutal combination.
I know as your friend that you had plans going into that to
do all kinds of great things.
Yeah.
But actually what happened was intense back pain and depression.
So you had a shit month and you weren't even at work getting,
you know, paid to be there.
Sam: Yeah, and a little bit of distraction.
You could have
Joe: just spiraled downwards and maybe not even come back to do the podcast.
I began
Ali: to wonder.
Yeah, like there was, I'm not gonna lie, there was certainly moments of
just like, oh, what, yeah, like really dark thinking around like, yeah,
going back to work, going back to life, going back to doing anything.
Yeah.
but.
I don't know.
Yeah.
There's been a few little changes that have sort of, I
feel like have, have helped.
And it was, yeah, a bipolar depressive episode triggered by which, you know,
intense stress and pressure and pain and all those things can trigger episodes.
And absolutely, I would say that was a contributing fact to having
surgery and recovery from that triggered this depressive episode.
Um, so.
I do feel the fog of that lifting, so it's, you know, but it's
the nature of the beast, right?
Like it's, you know, I'm going to have ups and downs.
I don't know as many ups as I would like, but like, you know, it was
definitely a down, but I don't know.
I do feel like, yeah, the shift is starting to happen.
I don't feel nearly as in such a pit of despair as I did a
week ago and then two weeks ago.
So,
Sam: you know.
Well, keeping in mind also another thing that really helped
me, uh, minimum six weeks to.
It takes to change our, like an ingrained attitude.
Yeah, absolutely.
Just to shift it.
Six weeks to shift.
Ali: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So like, it's, it feels very early days, but they feel a little bit more
positive than even the thinking I had like a week ago, two weeks ago.
Yeah.
So yeah, but it's, yeah, it's a bit of a, bit of a time.
Joe: So, I had an idea for a New Year's resolution for us.
Yeah.
We have wrestled back and forth, and anyone who's listened to the
show, we even tried to open the, the show a couple of times with talking
about diagnoses and stuff like that.
But in our discussion before the show, it was quite clear that, and also
my three years of therapy, it was really de emphasized the diagnosis
thing, and the diagnosis thing implies that it's It's like, uh, illness
that's well defined, like other illnesses, like cancer or something.
But actually, autism, ADHD and bipolar aren't really those things.
And I think our news resolution, well, what I'm proposing is we actually de
emphasize the diagnosis side of things.
And just be three hopefully vaguely interesting people having a chat and
if yeah, we can mention bipolar if it's relevant like, like Ali just
said about her depressive episode, but actually it's like, I don't know,
I, it was a game changer for me to find a therapist who was just not very
interested in the bipolar side of things.
Oh really?
Hang on.
Well, she wanted to know what, what made me tick.
You
Sam: know what?
Psychotherapists, in my experience, have never been interested in that stuff.
That's, that's right.
I think
Joe: they,
Ali: it's more like a tool P for the psychiatry.
Yeah.
Psychiatry.
Joe: You know, like, my man's a set for life.
Yeah.
I can't see them changing.
Right.
So it's not very, I I'm not back to see a psychiatrist, you know?
Yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
. So I'm, what am I trying to say?
I'm just getting on with my life.
Sure.
Yeah.
And I, I think that
Sam: that's the.
You know, basically, I mean, privilege in a way is like not having to think
about things and that, you know, whether it's your identity, you know, your color
or your gender or sexuality or mental diagnoses and all of that, like, the
less you have to think about it, the more privilege you've got, basically.
But
Joe: see, this is The thing I tried in like 2019 was to
Sam: also you've had your BPD diagnosis for a very long time.
So you've had longer to basically move through the stages of like
overly identifying with it.
BPD is borderline.
I
Joe: think it says B P
Sam: A D.
B
Ali: P A D.
B P A D.
Bipolar
Sam: Affective Disorder.
Bipolar Affective Disorder.
Yeah.
Joe: Don't, uh, throw me in with the
Sam: borderlines.
No, no, no.
Jesus Christ.
No, you've expressed your contempt previously.
no, but
Joe: what I was going to say is there was a moment back in 2019.
Where I think I just got so sick of being a straight white guy and I was
like, well, you should be sick of it.
But for 20 years, I've had this bipolar diagnosis.
I can now promote myself on social media as someone who's neurodivergent, and
suddenly I join an identity subgroup, which seemed at that point to be the only
way to have any legitimacy in the culture.
So, I did it, and I tried it, and there's like a neurodivergent flag, and I talked
about being neurodivergent, and I went and got a job in mental health, and Sure.
And I strongly reject that in hindsight.
It's like, I reject all identity politics for starters, but then to see that I need
to hustle in that world was wrong too.
And this show is really hard to explain to someone simply, but it feels false
when I say, well, what it is is three neurodivergent people talking about life.
Sure, kind of, and when I met a marketing person, that was the angle
she strongly pushed if you want to find listeners or get Beyond
Blue to sponsor you or something.
Sam: Specificity is value.
Yeah, I just I suppose
Ali: like having that Identifying factor could help somebody
who's just a starting point,
Joe: some people off, like, why?
I don't want to go and listen to these three crazies,
Ali: you know?
Yeah.
But that's the thing, you're it's identifying what
Joe: this is about.
For comedians that would make sense.
Oh, people go, yeah, I want to check
Sam: that out.
No, no, that works both ways.
But I
Ali: was going to say, I think like.
So personally, I, I don't think, like, I don't identify with any
of my one, any of my diagnosis.
I don't wake up in the morning and think this is who I am.
No, I don't think of any, like, it's not a, it's not something
I strongly identify with.
But like I said, that, like you said, that there's a privilege that comes from that.
But I.
Uh, yeah, I just, I've always said, it's just like, it's a part of me,
but it's not the most interesting thing about me is the thing.
And so I think while the label is relevant as far as the podcast and what we have to
offer because it is through the lens of three neurodivergent people, it's just,
it is just one facet of three people, you know, and, and our experiences are going
to be shaped by the, that label or those labels that we all share, but it's not.
It's not the defining necessarily feature of the show.
So whether you want to, you know, moving forward, you know, mention
it or like, I, like, I, I think it does help like from the marketing
perspective of having, you know, people seeking out voices of neurodivergent
people, because there are people who are, you know, particularly with the
awareness around it now, it's like, Oh, I want to know a bit more about it.
I want to know what other people's experiences are.
People are going to gravitate it towards it for that.
But like you said, similarly, they're going to be other
people who are just like.
Oh, well, that's, that doesn't apply to me, so I don't want to hear about that.
And
Sam: when it comes to the, the reason I wanted to do an
audio show on an RSS feed, i.
e.
a podcast is And I'm going to talk about how I came to be interested in these.
So, I started out with generic, you know, quite generic listening
habits, like just going after the top shows, which is what most people do.
But then over time, you start becoming, well, hopefully, you start
becoming more aware of things that are more niche and more specific.
And it's not like only listen to stuff that's, In your wheelhouse.
I think that's a mistake.
Also, I listen to conservative media sometimes and you know, I listen to
contrarian stuff to where I sit, but I've started to move beyond the like just
history and current events and Top, you know, sort of topic based stuff that I was
listening to a lot of and started, started becoming interested in what a individual
people could teach me just through their example and just spending time with them.
Oh, this, I like this person's demeanor.
I like their way of looking at life.
I want to learn more from this person in particular and just through this,
just, just by listening to what they choose to put on the internet, right?
And the other thing was.
You can't, I started to find shows that were very, very niche for like,
and for me, and for maybe only 500 or 1, 000 or, you know, I listen to
a lot of very small shows that are perfect, that they just do something
particularly well, and The value, I just don't think you can be too specific.
And the reason I was attracted to this medium is its
specificity, not its generality.
And like, you know, if I wanted, you know, to do a variety show, I would do that.
And that is something I'm interested in.
I like the general as well.
But it's, I agree that neurodiversity doesn't capture really any human
being adequately, I don't think.
And that's kind of the point.
Any more than like a You know, describing someone's gender is, you know,
especially revealing about what they might do or what they might think, and
in general, the less, I agree entirely with both of you, that the less I
think about identity, the happier I am.
Um, the less I identify with the category male or white or straight,
and the less I identify with, yeah.
I
Joe: think we should wrap it up, but I guess that's what I'm saying for us
going forward is, To maybe de-emphasize that because some days identify more as
an, as a melburnian than anything else.
Or, oh, days identify more as a parent's, a north, a northsider.
Yeah.
So days I identify more as a parent.
Sometimes I identify more as a worker and a film crew.
Yes.
Worker and yes.
You know, like that's how I was identifying all day yesterday.
Mm-Hmm.
Sam: We're all wage slaves here.
That's another thing worth pointing
Joe: out.
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's, maybe from now on we run it as an entirely
Marxist show and get rid of the spiritual stuff at the start.
Start with a Karl Marx quote every week.
Sam: Oh, sure, I'd love to do a Red Reading Room, but
Joe: equally Well, that can be maybe one of your other projects.
But I, but I, but
Sam: I like doing, but I like doing the woo woo stuff a little bit.
I know.
I
Joe: enjoy it.
I had a friend who said he won't listen to it 'cause he's not into spiritualism.
And it's like, but that's the point.
The 10,000 things, the 10,000 things are mostly the not spiritual things
that are the illusion of That's right.
Fucking
Sam: Maya stuck in the entanglements of Maya.
That's right.
Yeah.
Joe: A hundred percent.
Whereas, you know, loving awareness is the reality.
Yes.
Now how much you two have signed onto that is, is attention within the show.
It's a great one.
Uh, and Ali.
Certainly not much at all, but, but it's still the framing.
of a spiritual nut, right?
Yeah,
Sam: of course, a tasty nut.
So that's
Joe: the I like that It's sad to me that someone won't listen to it
because they think we're just going to talk about spiritualism all the
Sam: time.
That is sad, and I think it would be sad if someone didn't listen
because, ugh, neurodivergent, that turns me off for whatever reason.
Yeah.
I'm like, yeah, okay.
But
Joe: given that, despite your huge ambition, Sam, I don't know if
we're ever gonna Hit exponential growth and millions of listeners.
Oh, no, no, no.
Maybe we don't have to try and Doesn't have to.
Here's the New Year's resolution and we'll finish on this.
I think we should have no angle for this show.
There is no angle.
We're not trying to sell you anything.
We're not trying to like categorize ourselves in any particular way.
No.
We've got enough runs on the board as being able to have
good chats with each other.
Of course.
Put it out there.
Sam: I think Sink or swim.
The value is in the doing.
I've always said this.
Like, it's me, the numbers don't motivate or demotivate
me, they just, they just happen.
Like, if, if I hadn't already, you know, as my friend Ahsan said one time,
you know, no, I've had my fun twice over, I don't care what happens next.
And I'm like, that is the right, that's the right attitude.
And that's a person, I'll say a bit more, that's a person who would make
New Year's resolutions with a degree of success, I would predict, but it's sort
of not really necessary because he's constantly Just, he's a big process guy.
Just always doing the process, whatever it is, and just carrying it out
and getting the results over time, but not doing it for the results.
You know, it kind of brings me back to the Hare Krishna upbringing I had,
which was, you're not supposed to be attached to the outcome of your actions.
Joe: Yeah, and this is the first, the closest I've ever gotten to that.
It used to be about wanting maximum
Sam: love.
Fill that theatre with your short film and get with your documentary
Joe: or whatever.
It's completely different.
Once it was explained to me it could be like a zine and
maybe someone just finds it.
Yes.
In a bar and they flick through it and they're like, 50 people have seen that.
Zeenster
Sam: dreams of wild failure.
Yeah.
Yeah, they don't
Joe: dream of wild failure.
Then I dropped it and I was like, Oh, okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
So then we have complete intellectual freedom.
Exactly.
To not have to run things back through a psychiatric
Sam: filter.
I think we've always had the freedom.
Marketing is just what you do.
To move units.
Yeah, it's interesting.
It doesn't describe the product.
But
Ali: I think just, I don't know, I'm just genuinely thrilled that
anybody listens, even if it's a 14 year old girl's bitching about me.
Like I'm just thrilled that somebody would actually find what I have to say
Joe: interesting.
Like, I don't think I ever get a message from someone about
the show that I don't reply.
Thanks so much for listening.
Sam: Yes, and well, absolutely.
It's a hugely, hugely affirming.
So by the way, if anyone's been sitting on a comment that they
want to, you know, throw in our direction, please don't sit on it.
We're.
There's no such thing as like getting too many of those.
they always count.
They always get reposted on the WhatsApp, um, like between the
four of us, Hugh's on there too.
And like we celebrate each time we hear from people, which is often enough that,
you know, maybe we could get blasÃ©, but no, it still feels like a massive
win every time we hear from somebody.
And actually yesterday I was at, no, the day before I was at
the pool and ran into a mate and she introduced me to her sister.
And she goes, ah, Sam from the podcast, and I was like, yes!
Ali: Yeah, you do, you feel like, that happened to me at a wedding last year,
and it was like, someone came up to me and was like, look, I've been listening
to it, like someone who I hadn't seen in years, and I wasn't even aware that, and
I was like, wow, that's, I feel famous.
Joe: It's the strangest thing because it's on the internet, it's not,
it's on, it's available to 8 billion people if they want to find it.
To listen to it, but we have no way of finding listeners.
But anyway, yeah.
I mean,
Sam: I think you've done very, I think you two have done very well.
Just, you know, spruiking it.
But
Joe: I mean, it's, it's, it's funny because whenever we get a clip, a
clean, some clean air of Ali and put it on TikTok, it goes massively viral.
Yes, that's one of my albums.
Sam constantly says, yep, yep, yep.
You can't really get clean air of Ali.
So we can't go that viral.
And then when I say, Sam, maybe don't do that.
Just nod.
He goes, I've got ADHD.
You can't tell me what to do.
Wow.
Okay.
He's holding Ali's career back on TikTok.
Sam: It's true.
And you know, and actually there's another way to think about, marketing,
for example, like those clips on TikTok, uh, worth doing for two reasons.
They.
They give Ali a boost.
I think that's what, that's
Joe: one reason.
Yeah, Ali just sits there watching the, the counter.
Think of,
Ali: and I'm just like, wow, this is like, I just find that fascinating that people
Sam: would listen to it.
How affirmative for a girl who thought she never had anything of value.
Yeah,
Ali: it really is like, I mean, regardless of whether it was TikTok
or even just, yeah, people coming up and, and, or like friends and family
who've listened to the show and have just, said really nice things.
Like I said, I just, every single time I am just so surprised that
anyone has, you know, taken the time to listen to what I have to say and
actually enjoyed it, you know, or even not enjoyed it, just like actually
taking that time out of their day.
I'm just really grateful for, I think it's.
It's
Joe: amazing.
Yeah, well, it's nice to have you back Ali, you were a little bit fried the
last time we recorded and when you were listening back the last episode,
me and Sam just yelled at each other about different intellectual figures
on the internet and you just didn't say much so you were a bit, and
then afterwards you said, oh geez, I didn't really feel myself that day.
Yeah.
So you've come back 2024 firing I would say, you're looking rosy
cheeked, you seem to be breathing, breathing well, fresh lungs,
Sam: sorry, I've been listening to a lot of, um, listening to a lot of podcasts
with women who know psychology and they're explaining things to me and I love it.
That's my new thing.
I listen to one about attachment.
I listen to another one about confidence.
I listen to another one, uh, relationships.
And, um, they always, you know, gimme cool little, uh, things.
And, uh, one of them was, uh, identity statements are useful when they're.
In the form of I am becoming, so like, where is it going is, is more important
than what you think it is right now.
And so for me, I am becoming a person who finds it easier to throw stuff
away when it's time to do that.
And I'm, I'm, I am someone who is finding it easier to know when it's time to.
Put something out on the nature strip or for free on Facebook marketplace.
And so that's something that's really high on the list out with stuff.
And also though, do some cluttering of my own and clutter
the internet more with stuff.
So, you know, that's virtual
Joe: stuff.
Yeah.
2024 Sam content coming your way.
Yeah.
Sam: So, and, and I guess my concluding thought is rather than like some
huge goal, I think it's like this.
Pick, pick one or two things that are good or affirming or, you know,
feel like they're having a benefit on your life and just go, let's
just do a little bit more of that.
Like I think the goal should always just be a little bit more of whatever's good.
And you know, like with doing pods or whatever, it's just like 1 percent better.
You know, as we go on, like that's, that's good enough, you know, after a hundred
shows you're a hundred percent better.
I think we've already, we're already five hundred percent better than
when we started and the benefits are still being felt personally.
Joe: Quite a few people probably switched off when we started
talking about the show itself.
Sam: Oh, look, I think we should, you've got to go meta occasionally, but you've
got to limit, you've got to limit it.
Um, and actually on that topic, in the next episode, I do want to read
At least one, uh, thing we've received from people because I feel like there's
this massive backlog of great comments and I kind of want to do something
with those, but, you know, that's it.
That's a new year's resolution.
Joe: Well, happy new year, everybody.
Happy new year.
It's going to be obviously terrifying world to live in.
But apart from that, living in Melbourne might be all right, who knows?