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This file was generated by Descript 

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Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

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Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

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Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

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things.

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Sam: Hello and welcome
to The 10, 000 Things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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Ali: I'm Joe Loh.

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And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show we have a bit
of a women's magazine type topic.

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Count me in then.

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Supermarket aisles.

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I think Ali wanted to do New Year, New Me.

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Okay.

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Sam: Well, so you think this
is a bit of a tabloid topic.

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I'm going to prove you wrong.

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Anyway, go on.

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Ali: No, it was more about sort of
future thinking and goal setting and

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has that worked for you or do you have
anything you've actually really achieved?

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Or do we all sort of do that same
thing every New Year's where we like,

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you know, I'm going to do this better
and I'm going to do that better.

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I'm not going to do this and then
like two weeks in we've given up.

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I'm going to go for a walk and I'm
going to journal, I'm going to have

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my lemon water and all that shit.

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Joe: So the starting point is
probably most people think New

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Year's resolutions are bullshit.

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Yeah.

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But, see, I, we did a whole episode
on how much I hate Christmas,

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but I actually love New Year's.

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Yeah, you're a

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Sam: yay sayer for New Year's.

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I

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Joe: am, and I did, I wrote down heaps
of resolutions this year, and so far,

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what is it, the 10th of Jan or something?

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Hey, hey, dragon.

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Yeah, all of them

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Sam: are solid.

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Well, I think your attitude towards
it is probably A pretty key component.

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Also, you've always had, well,
no, you've got good self knowledge

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these days, so that would have
enabled you to set the right sort

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of goals and manage them properly.

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Joe: Yeah, so I don't know if you, do
you guys have ones you want to talk?

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I've got a few.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Some I wouldn't talk about in
public, but some I'm happy to.

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Ali: Yeah, like, I mean, I, I
think, like, whether you use

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Sam: Well, you're going to
try no nut November this

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year, but that's just between.

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You know, you and no one, Jesus

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Joe: Christ, Sam, my
kids listen to this show.

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Sam: I'm just trying to think
of something embarrassing.

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Sorry,

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Ali: I was going to say, like, I think
if you, whether you use New Year's as

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just like a reset point or any day of
the, I think the thing I've learned is it

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doesn't matter what day of the year it is.

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And.

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I decided to make a few small
changes late last year that I've

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stuck with some of and other things
I haven't, I'm doing miserably at.

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And then, then like similarly,
like, so I mean, smoking has been

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the biggest thing of five days.

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Five days, I'm on day five.

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So, you know,

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Sam: So did you have a post, did
you have a little bit of a, a

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Siggy Blitz like just before that?

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Ali: Oh, absolutely.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Like, like a, like a binge or a blowout.

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Like I always do that.

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But, um, And you've just turned

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Joe: 40?

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40.

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Ali: Yep.

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Good time to quit smoking.

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Well, that was, that was my thing.

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I wanted to do it by the time I turned 40,
which was in December and I didn't do it.

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And then I was like, I'm
going to do it at New Year's.

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Didn't do it.

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Joe: I don't know what the science
is on the cancer and stuff.

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Oh, I

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Ali: mean that, that,
let's not talk about it.

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I was going to say it's pure.

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Joe: 30 is a good cutoff for
smoking if you don't want cancer.

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Oh, no,

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Ali: I, I, I know.

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I've been smoking since I was 14.

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I know that there will be absolutely,
I'm not oblivious that there wouldn't

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be any, some damage or anything like
that, but it's purely financial.

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It's purely financial.

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There's no, I could not give a shit if
I could still smoke and it was cheap.

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Sam: You're still not convinced
you're going to live a good long life.

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That's the issue.

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Ali: No, so I don't, I literally could,
I like it and I enjoyed it and I like,

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yeah, I saw no downside to it other
than the financial, but now it is just.

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It's completely prohibitive, so.

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Sam: It's not like it's slowing
down your chances of running a

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half marathon, I guess, at this

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point.

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Ali: No, it's just sending me broke.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and I just weighed it up and
I'm like, I'd rather a holiday.

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So that, that's my goal is a
holiday, you know, with the

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money I'm just putting it aside.

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So, um.

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Sam: All the taxes worked, Joe.

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Yeah.

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Ali: So like, as a public health measure,
like, I mean, it's a tax on the poor

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and I have a real problem with it apart
from that, like, um, same with the fine

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system, like it's a tax on the poor.

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yeah, so, I mean, I didn't do it on New
Year's, but I thought, no, I, I was in

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the mindset of, I got everything ready
so that I thought one day it's just

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going to happen and it'll be the day.

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And like I had all my.

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Like Nicorette, like replacement things.

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And, you know, I mean, um, he got
organized, got organized, made sure

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it was there so that I just didn't
have, cause any excuse it's like,

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as an addict, it's like any excuse.

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Oh, well, today was a really hard morning.

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Or like, this was really like, it didn't,
I didn't even know it's my coffee or

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I've got a few left in the packet.

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Or it was absolutely.

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Oh, this will just be my last packet.

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I think I've said that after
every packet, you're triggering

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Sam: me, right?

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Oh, I'm sorry.

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It's good.

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It's

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Ali: good for me.

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But like the, you know, I've been
saying that for over a decade that, you

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know, really genuinely wanted to quit.

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So, but then like the other day I ran
out during the day and I thought nuts.

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This is it.

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I've got the stuff here,
let's just fucking start it.

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And now it's sort of genius.

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The thinking of it behind it now is
like, oh no, I've already gone two days.

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I'm not wasting that uhhuh to go back.

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And That's right.

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Seems to be the, yep.

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Almost like the sunk cost fallacy.

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Yes.

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Like weaponize.

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I'm weaponizing that thinking.

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Yeah.

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And it's like, no.

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Well, I've gone like, yeah,
it's, it's coming up five

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days now, so I'm not going to.

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You know, I'm just not going to
waste that and go back to it because

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I really, it's more that I don't
want to go through that, this again.

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I'm just so done with it.

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yeah, so that's my thinking.

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And then, so, I mean, I have quit
before successfully for like, you

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know, for, I think it was over

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Sam: a year.

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Okay.

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So you've got to beat that now.

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Oh, that's yeah.

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Well, that's a, that's an aspiration.

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Ali: Yeah.

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It's yeah.

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So, I mean, I'm not saying I've quit
until like I've, I'm a year in at

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least, and then I'll say I've quit.

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I'll be just, I'm quitting because
I know, you know, it's very easy to

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fuck up the, I'll think of an excuse.

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And I mean, I've already made like
a hundred excuses for myself already

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thinking, Oh my God, you know, but
that's one of the, I mean, like

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it's, but I real, the thing I've
realized over the years, because I

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used to very much be of the mindset.

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Okay.

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New year, reset.

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I'm going to implement all the
good habits that I mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

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that are just simply, I do not have.

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Yeah.

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You've you've overdone it in the past.

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Yeah.

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I don't have the willpower to make
that work, so, but one thing at a

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time, if I can master one thing and
then it's just gently adding on, okay,

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now I'm gonna add on the next thing.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. Now I'm gonna start
cutting back the coffee.

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Mm-Hmm.

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I'm not there yet.

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But then, you know, and same as
I, I'm going to, I mean, my other

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one was like, I'd like to go for a
walk every day, but I'm obviously

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a little bit limited at the moment.

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Just for those who don't know, I'm working
with a walking stick at the moment.

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So, yeah, so that will come
with physio hopefully in time.

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just, yeah, adding those things in.

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Slowly and just being kind to myself that
at least I'm doing this one thing, because

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like my psychologist said to me, like
the motivation doesn't come beforehand.

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It never comes beforehand.

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It's once you've done it, that's right.

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That's what spurs you on.

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So yeah, so it's just one thing at a time.

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No one ever feels

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Sam: ready.

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No.

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Ali: For anything.

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For anything.

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It's like, Oh, you're going
to go on a diet tomorrow.

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No, I'm not.

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Sam: No, I'm not.

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That's right.

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I'm going to whatever it is.

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And I'm sure Joe could, you
know, chip in with experiences

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along those lines, but, but yeah.

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The key to anything is what, almost
what you did there is a, like, to me,

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that's a case study in how to do it,
where you just ran out one day and went,

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okay, well, I guess that's it then.

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So to let it sneak up on you
is, is really, in my mind,

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one of the best ways to do it.

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The mind is very wily, as you've just
been describing, we'll constantly

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find excuses and justifications.

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It's very good at like cornering
the executive function and,

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um, Oh, well, it was me.

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It wasn't my decision and like, and so on.

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We're so good at deferring
responsibility, shifting it elsewhere.

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and that's for a reason because
executive function itself is highly

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overstated and you know, Joe will
even go as far as saying it's.

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Perhaps an illusion entirely free
will that is, uh, but the, the two

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lessons in what you did, like let it
sort of trick yourself into doing it.

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Don't make a big deal about the when and
just sort of like, oops, I'm, Oh, oops.

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I forgot to smoke for two days.

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Like that's ideal.

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And then the other psychology that's
kicked in there, the sunk cost fallacy

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or, there's a name for this exact thing
because it's not a, it's not a negative,

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like you've made this large investment,
it's not going well, but you're going to

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continue throwing good money after bad.

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That's the sunk cost fallacy.

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This business is failing.

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Let's borrow more money.

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or, you know, this strategy hasn't
been working, let's do more of it.

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In your case, it's a successful strategy
with small gains and you're very Very

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attached to those small games and you
want to shepherd them and increase them.

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So it's kind of like a nest egg effect
or something like that you once you once

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you get to any kind of land It doesn't
matter like five minutes is a landmark.

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Yeah for some people

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Ali: and like I'm not a journaler
and I I did buy I bet every year

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I buy one and use it for about
a week Well, the big thing about

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Sam: journals is they give you
data to refer to later But this

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Ali: one is in particular has like a whole
thing on habit tracking yeah, that's what

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stuff and I thought that that would be
useful to me and I then put like, and one

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of the things was it actually gets you
to break it down into really measurable

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goals, which is something I do in therapy.

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And it's like half an hour without a
cigarette, an hour without a cigarette,

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a day without a cigarette, like two days.

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So yeah.

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And you just seeing the little
ticks, there's something

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very satisfying about that.

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Progress bar.

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Yeah, it is.

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And so, and I, I feel like that's
sort of helping keeping me on track

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as well because It's like, especially
with something like that, whereas

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like something like weight loss,
which is obviously something I've

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really struggled with over the

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Sam: years.

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I would say that's probably more
difficult, wouldn't you say, than

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Ali: tackling smoking?

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Yes and no, because like the, the,
you can't see, unless you're doing

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it in a really unhealthy way, which
I don't recommend, you can't see

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Sam: really measured.

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And what were the unhealthy ways for it?

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Keto?

00:10:17.512 --> 00:10:17.762
Ali: Yeah.

00:10:17.792 --> 00:10:19.182
Or just like binging and purging.

00:10:19.182 --> 00:10:22.872
That was my go to when I was, but,
um, you could see really big results,

00:10:23.358 --> 00:10:24.576
in a really short period of time.

00:10:25.326 --> 00:10:29.296
Sam: The illusion of progress,
but illusory progress beware.

00:10:29.376 --> 00:10:30.146
Yeah, exactly.

00:10:30.146 --> 00:10:33.646
Ali: Where, you know, whereas, you
know, to do it, you know, properly,

00:10:33.646 --> 00:10:34.806
you're not, you know, it'll be.

00:10:35.151 --> 00:10:37.791
In 12 weeks you'll say, Oh, I've
dropped a few kilos and that's

00:10:37.821 --> 00:10:41.621
completely healthy, right way to do
it if that's what you need to do.

00:10:41.751 --> 00:10:41.861
And

00:10:41.861 --> 00:10:44.171
Sam: it actually feels better because
you haven't been doing this crazy

00:10:44.171 --> 00:10:44.301
Ali: thing.

00:10:44.451 --> 00:10:45.061
You don't feel deprived.

00:10:45.061 --> 00:10:49.061
You don't feel like, yeah, you're not,
you're not watching every single thing.

00:10:49.061 --> 00:10:51.621
You just, it just becomes a
bit more of a lifestyle change.

00:10:51.651 --> 00:10:51.881
And it

00:10:51.881 --> 00:10:53.111
Sam: feels more normal.

00:10:53.151 --> 00:10:55.951
And like, this is a word that
gets used a lot in therapy in my

00:10:55.951 --> 00:10:59.726
experience,  like I remember saying
on a pod ages ago, like in people.

00:10:59.726 --> 00:11:03.336
I have all kinds of hoity toity,
high minded language around therapy,

00:11:03.336 --> 00:11:05.446
but actually what you're doing a
lot of the time is actually trying

00:11:05.446 --> 00:11:08.516
to find really ordinary words to
talk about really ordinary things.

00:11:08.926 --> 00:11:14.016
And Adam's been telling me about
norma normal a lot lately and

00:11:14.016 --> 00:11:16.676
like, Oh, that felt normal, did it?

00:11:16.896 --> 00:11:19.836
Like he'll say about, you know, after
I've told a little anecdote, I'm

00:11:19.836 --> 00:11:21.626
like, yeah, actually it felt normal.

00:11:21.936 --> 00:11:22.226
Ali: Yeah.

00:11:22.286 --> 00:11:25.236
It becomes your new normal,
those patterns and habits.

00:11:25.236 --> 00:11:27.421
And then it's that, I suppose it's like.

00:11:27.781 --> 00:11:30.691
I mean, I've never, I've never tried
hypnosis therapy or whatever, but

00:11:30.691 --> 00:11:33.041
it's sort of, I suppose that's sort
of, in a sense, I can understand the

00:11:33.041 --> 00:11:36.571
psychology of that, it's tricking
you into thinking I'm not a smoker,

00:11:36.641 --> 00:11:39.571
because that's what it is, it's like,
oh, that's not what I do, whereas your

00:11:39.571 --> 00:11:43.001
normal would, so that's, so I'm still
very much of, oh, in the morning,

00:11:43.001 --> 00:11:46.921
that's what I would do, is I would
have a Cigarette or five with my coffee

00:11:46.956 --> 00:11:47.156
Yeah.

00:11:47.696 --> 00:11:48.236
So it's, yeah.

00:11:48.481 --> 00:11:48.751
Yeah.

00:11:48.841 --> 00:11:51.241
Whereas actually, like, no,
that's not what I'm doing now.

00:11:51.241 --> 00:11:52.431
And Mm-Hmm, . Yeah.

00:11:52.521 --> 00:11:54.771
But then all of a sudden you wake
up one day and you're like, oh, I'm,

00:11:54.771 --> 00:11:56.241
you're not even thinking about it.

00:11:56.241 --> 00:11:56.451
That's right.

00:11:56.451 --> 00:11:57.441
I wanna get to that point.

00:11:57.441 --> 00:11:58.881
That's, and I know that's years away.

00:11:58.971 --> 00:11:59.571
Oh, no, no, no.

00:11:59.571 --> 00:12:00.916
Sooner than that, I think, uh, no, no.

00:12:01.701 --> 00:12:03.316
It's so ingrained in me, I

00:12:03.319 --> 00:12:06.529
Joe: I think five days in you've
probably passed the worst of it.

00:12:06.629 --> 00:12:07.989
Ali: Yeah, no, not at all.

00:12:07.989 --> 00:12:09.329
Like, and I'm still, I'm on nicotine.

00:12:09.329 --> 00:12:09.709
Passed the worst.

00:12:09.749 --> 00:12:11.259
Well, if you haven't kicked
the nicotine, that's different.

00:12:11.259 --> 00:12:14.179
I haven't kicked the nicotine, which
I mean, Yeah, well, you're still,

00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:16.089
I'm still very much, and look, even,
You've got that tied to your back.

00:12:16.169 --> 00:12:20.279
even if I have that tied to my
back for six to twelve months or

00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:22.479
even longer, Is still cheaper.

00:12:23.939 --> 00:12:24.989
That's, that's, that's my thing.

00:12:24.989 --> 00:12:25.319
Sam: Oh yeah.

00:12:25.319 --> 00:12:27.039
Cause of course, NRT does cost

00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:27.339
Ali: money.

00:12:27.349 --> 00:12:31.609
It does cost money, but it's
not nearly what, um, yeah,

00:12:31.609 --> 00:12:31.954
Sam: cigarettes.

00:12:31.954 --> 00:12:33.029
What the darts cost.

00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:33.299
Yeah.

00:12:33.329 --> 00:12:34.209
So I

00:12:34.209 --> 00:12:37.319
Joe: guess just thinking about
your experience of quitting

00:12:38.749 --> 00:12:40.449
cigarettes at the start of the year.

00:12:40.459 --> 00:12:45.629
I guess one of the reasons I'm so bullish
on New Year's resolutions is like 7th of

00:12:45.629 --> 00:12:48.439
Jen was eight years alcohol free for me.

00:12:48.449 --> 00:12:48.709
Yeah.

00:12:49.429 --> 00:12:51.169
So that comes a week after.

00:12:51.874 --> 00:12:54.974
A week after New Year's every year is
another year that I haven't picked up a

00:12:54.974 --> 00:12:55.294
Sam: drink.

00:12:55.314 --> 00:12:56.644
Yeah, can I, can I butt in?

00:12:56.724 --> 00:12:58.194
Oh, because you quit on New Year's Day.

00:12:58.264 --> 00:12:58.784
No, no, I

00:12:58.784 --> 00:13:05.534
Joe: quit on, my last drink was
6th of January 2016 at the MCG.

00:13:05.534 --> 00:13:06.274
Oh, well, nice.

00:13:06.354 --> 00:13:09.454
And I looked up the game the other
day and Glenn Maxwell made a hit of

00:13:09.454 --> 00:13:13.804
50 that night and I left before the
end of the game and put my half a beer

00:13:13.804 --> 00:13:18.304
down because I was blind drunk and
I wasn't feeling anything anymore.

00:13:18.354 --> 00:13:23.469
I was just like I can't stop drinking
and I'm not even enjoying it, enjoying

00:13:23.469 --> 00:13:25.189
it, drinking against my own will.

00:13:25.339 --> 00:13:26.509
Oh yeah, I

00:13:26.509 --> 00:13:26.699
Sam: know

00:13:26.699 --> 00:13:27.079
Joe: that feeling.

00:13:27.089 --> 00:13:30.404
So so it's for me to overcome
that one addiction that was

00:13:30.704 --> 00:13:32.144
really going to take me down.

00:13:32.154 --> 00:13:32.714
It's paved the

00:13:32.714 --> 00:13:34.164
Sam: way for all sorts of other

00:13:34.794 --> 00:13:35.034
Joe: things.

00:13:35.044 --> 00:13:37.874
Yeah, so now I hit the start of
the year and I can set things up.

00:13:38.164 --> 00:13:42.054
With a lot of confidence now that I'm
gonna, just gonna do them, you know.

00:13:42.434 --> 00:13:44.774
Ali: It's like the motivation, it's
come after the fact that you've got

00:13:44.814 --> 00:13:48.554
this big flex that you've been able
to, well, I've given up drinking, so

00:13:48.674 --> 00:13:48.754
Sam: it's huge.

00:13:48.754 --> 00:13:49.924
It's a huge, huge flex.

00:13:49.954 --> 00:13:50.664
Yeah.

00:13:50.664 --> 00:13:50.974
Joe: Yeah.

00:13:51.434 --> 00:13:56.404
Yeah, so that gives me a new
perspective on things, I think.

00:13:56.404 --> 00:13:57.114
Definitely.

00:13:57.594 --> 00:13:59.214
So I, I do think the New Year's.

00:13:59.274 --> 00:14:00.144
What about you, Sam?

00:14:00.144 --> 00:14:02.124
Do you have Well, new Year's news

00:14:02.124 --> 00:14:03.444
Sam: reset for sure.

00:14:03.504 --> 00:14:06.144
I mean, I was about to ask you
another question though, which was

00:14:06.144 --> 00:14:08.874
about do you believe in that thing
about like, the body's being replaced

00:14:08.874 --> 00:14:10.194
after seven years and like Mm.

00:14:10.794 --> 00:14:11.064
Never

00:14:11.064 --> 00:14:11.544
Joe: heard that.

00:14:11.634 --> 00:14:11.694
Yeah.

00:14:11.814 --> 00:14:13.284
Well, all the cells, all your cells

00:14:13.284 --> 00:14:15.744
Ali: regenerate over a
period of time to a point.

00:14:15.744 --> 00:14:19.424
I mean, if, I mean, obviously some things
don't like because Yeah, look, I, I

00:14:19.424 --> 00:14:23.384
Joe: put a photo up for my
eight years sober on social

00:14:23.384 --> 00:14:25.274
media and had a, a friend, huge.

00:14:25.649 --> 00:14:29.489
Contact me who's not, you know, he doesn't
mind criticizing me a fair bit, but he

00:14:29.499 --> 00:14:33.014
said, oh, wow, you look You look, you look
a lot younger than us who've kept drinking

00:14:33.324 --> 00:14:38.769
and I was like, Oh, it's just nice
light at sunset, which is where I took

00:14:38.769 --> 00:14:39.271
Ali: the photo.

00:14:39.271 --> 00:14:40.684
But no, that is so true.

00:14:40.754 --> 00:14:46.944
And like, I would say my observation and
particularly the culture around, you know,

00:14:46.974 --> 00:14:50.264
like wine o'clock or, you know, mother's
drinking and all that sort of stuff.

00:14:50.664 --> 00:14:51.764
And my observation

00:14:51.844 --> 00:14:54.394
Sam: of, yeah, beaches love
wine and I am a beach for

00:14:54.394 --> 00:14:55.354
Ali: sure.

00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:57.579
It's going to be five o'clock
somewhere in the world.

00:14:57.989 --> 00:15:02.959
And like the women who have kept,
like, and I say this as like someone

00:15:02.959 --> 00:15:04.109
who, Oh, this is going to be good.

00:15:04.109 --> 00:15:06.093
She's going to be
judging some school mums.

00:15:06.093 --> 00:15:06.601
Judge some

00:15:06.601 --> 00:15:07.109
Sam: school mums.

00:15:07.109 --> 00:15:07.539
Oh yes.

00:15:08.089 --> 00:15:08.729
This is what I'm here for.

00:15:08.729 --> 00:15:09.409
Should be a new segment.

00:15:10.229 --> 00:15:11.739
Joe: Ali judges mums
down at the high school.

00:15:13.219 --> 00:15:14.359
Sam: I've got some to chip in too.

00:15:14.439 --> 00:15:16.657
But as a working mother, as a working

00:15:16.657 --> 00:15:17.345
Ali: mother myself.

00:15:17.345 --> 00:15:20.889
The ones that have Continued
to hit the booze really hard.

00:15:21.099 --> 00:15:21.539
You can see it.

00:15:21.549 --> 00:15:22.359
You can see it.

00:15:22.389 --> 00:15:27.499
And I say this as someone who
is a smoker and a heavy smoker.

00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:29.509
And I continually get mistaken.

00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:32.519
I would say younger often than I, my age.

00:15:32.869 --> 00:15:33.659
And smoking

00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:35.069
Sam: definitely has an effect on aging.

00:15:35.079 --> 00:15:35.339
Ali: Yeah.

00:15:35.339 --> 00:15:38.439
But, but I would say I don't have
the, like, I haven't like, it's

00:15:38.439 --> 00:15:39.609
not like I haven't had Botox.

00:15:39.649 --> 00:15:40.699
I mean, do Botox, whatever.

00:15:40.699 --> 00:15:43.079
I have no, there's no judgment around
that, but like I haven't had to

00:15:43.079 --> 00:15:46.969
do that yet because I haven't felt
like it's necessarily aged my face.

00:15:47.524 --> 00:15:51.134
I don't have the big heavy lines
yet, but then I've got friends who've

00:15:51.174 --> 00:15:55.374
never smoked, but who have been heavy
drinkers, and you can see that on

00:15:55.374 --> 00:16:00.004
their face, and it is, it really is,
I'd say, like, alcohol is a huge,

00:16:00.054 --> 00:16:01.794
like, I sort of gave that up, really.

00:16:02.354 --> 00:16:02.864
People just get

00:16:02.864 --> 00:16:04.324
Joe: a bit puffy, don't they?

00:16:05.094 --> 00:16:05.714
Oh, there's more to it.

00:16:05.724 --> 00:16:05.944
No,

00:16:05.944 --> 00:16:06.114
Sam: no,

00:16:06.244 --> 00:16:06.364
Ali: no.

00:16:06.364 --> 00:16:07.424
It's, it's the lines.

00:16:07.424 --> 00:16:07.624
You get

00:16:07.624 --> 00:16:10.764
Sam: puffy the day after a big night
in a few days, but it's the long term.

00:16:10.794 --> 00:16:11.324
It's this

00:16:11.394 --> 00:16:15.114
Ali: withdrawn, sort of, drawn, sort of,
in your, in your cheeks that sort of hold.

00:16:15.114 --> 00:16:17.894
I mean, that happens as you
age anyway, but like, there is.

00:16:17.964 --> 00:16:21.534
It's, you can just tell in the face
with the lines and the hollowing

00:16:21.564 --> 00:16:22.724
out and the cheeks and stuff.

00:16:22.724 --> 00:16:24.814
There is a real, it does age you.

00:16:24.824 --> 00:16:25.604
It really does.

00:16:25.814 --> 00:16:26.044
Yeah.

00:16:26.244 --> 00:16:26.344
It

00:16:26.484 --> 00:16:27.234
Sam: really, really does.

00:16:27.244 --> 00:16:27.834
It really does.

00:16:27.874 --> 00:16:28.124
Yeah.

00:16:28.554 --> 00:16:29.094
I noticed it.

00:16:29.094 --> 00:16:30.174
Like I'm going to boast.

00:16:30.214 --> 00:16:32.354
Like, so I had a
completely agree with you.

00:16:32.354 --> 00:16:37.284
Vanity is such a great motivator and never
feel any shame about using vanity as a

00:16:37.284 --> 00:16:40.945
motive to do something good for yourself
or I had a very affirming moment late last

00:16:40.945 --> 00:16:44.535
year where I had dinner with some, like an
old friend I hadn't seen for a long time.

00:16:44.775 --> 00:16:49.585
Uh, you know, Kath, me and, and
this old mate, um, a mutual old

00:16:49.585 --> 00:16:53.675
friend, and she said, Oh, you're
looking, you're looking well, Sam.

00:16:53.675 --> 00:16:54.315
You're looking healthy.

00:16:54.635 --> 00:16:56.075
You're looking better than
you've looked in years.

00:16:56.075 --> 00:16:59.225
And I'm like, didn't
really drink this year.

00:16:59.805 --> 00:17:01.335
And she's like, Oh, that'll do it.

00:17:02.255 --> 00:17:05.265
And then we got onto the topic of some
people we know who are overdoing it.

00:17:05.395 --> 00:17:07.845
So still, so, you know, and.

00:17:08.655 --> 00:17:12.105
It's a, I just feel a tremendous sense
of relief that I'm just not under the

00:17:12.105 --> 00:17:14.095
spell of it, like, to the same degree.

00:17:14.285 --> 00:17:17.915
But I'll say this, the flip side of
what I just said, over Christmas,

00:17:17.915 --> 00:17:21.075
New Year's, I did have more than I
normally would, and what I normally

00:17:21.075 --> 00:17:24.343
would have is zero, Yeah, most weeks,
but then Christmas, New Year's,

00:17:24.453 --> 00:17:26.173
yeah, it snuck up on me a little bit.

00:17:26.213 --> 00:17:29.022
Nothing like previous, just
completely overdoing it and

00:17:29.032 --> 00:17:33.332
becoming just profoundly miserable
by mid, like early, early January.

00:17:33.332 --> 00:17:33.942
You're an interesting

00:17:33.942 --> 00:17:37.152
Joe: case because you haven't
ruled anything out, substance wise.

00:17:37.202 --> 00:17:37.722
No.

00:17:37.952 --> 00:17:38.802
I don't, I don't.

00:17:38.822 --> 00:17:42.372
Like, you speak a little bit on
this podcast having drunk less.

00:17:42.637 --> 00:17:43.217
Drink less.

00:17:43.217 --> 00:17:44.857
And I don't, I mean, I don't rate that

00:17:44.857 --> 00:17:45.127
Sam: much.

00:17:45.137 --> 00:17:48.207
No, no, you're all about just
don't just rule it out completely.

00:17:48.207 --> 00:17:48.557
Yeah, because

00:17:48.557 --> 00:17:48.587
you're

00:17:48.947 --> 00:17:51.577
Joe: still going to be like, oh,
I went and had that massive night.

00:17:51.577 --> 00:17:54.277
So you still experience that hangover.

00:17:54.367 --> 00:17:55.447
I still get the downsides.

00:17:55.467 --> 00:17:59.127
Not drinking wasn't about looking
better or being physically healthier.

00:17:59.522 --> 00:18:00.772
And it wasn't financial.

00:18:00.782 --> 00:18:01.902
It was spiritual.

00:18:01.972 --> 00:18:02.512
It was like,

00:18:02.892 --> 00:18:04.872
Sam: how bad the existential angst was.

00:18:04.872 --> 00:18:06.292
Can I make, can I make something clear?

00:18:06.412 --> 00:18:09.242
The number one reason was for
mental health for me and for

00:18:09.242 --> 00:18:10.882
the benefit of my children.

00:18:10.882 --> 00:18:14.982
I say spiritual, but vanity
has been a great ongoing

00:18:14.992 --> 00:18:17.712
motivator to keep, to maintain

00:18:17.802 --> 00:18:17.862
Ali: it.

00:18:17.902 --> 00:18:18.282
Yeah.

00:18:18.282 --> 00:18:21.192
Like, so I was a very heavy
drinker before I had my son.

00:18:21.202 --> 00:18:22.642
Like I'm very, very heavy.

00:18:23.182 --> 00:18:26.202
And yeah, and it was like a
real shock that I was pregnant.

00:18:26.202 --> 00:18:26.722
It's like, okay.

00:18:26.722 --> 00:18:31.272
So it just, it was like a kick up the ass
that I just sort of forced sobriety that I

00:18:31.272 --> 00:18:34.332
was just able to kind of leverage ongoing.

00:18:34.332 --> 00:18:39.532
And I will still have a cocktail maybe
like on the odd occasion when I, you know.

00:18:39.972 --> 00:18:43.091
Decide not to be a weird cat on the shelf.

00:18:43.092 --> 00:18:44.522
I'll go out and have a cocktail.

00:18:44.522 --> 00:18:44.672
Ali

00:18:44.672 --> 00:18:47.462
Joe: went to Queensland and started
sending me photos of all these cocktails

00:18:47.462 --> 00:18:49.992
and all this booze she was buying.

00:18:50.362 --> 00:18:52.102
And eventually I was like,
Ali, I'm an alcoholic.

00:18:53.162 --> 00:18:53.582
I'm so sorry.

00:18:53.612 --> 00:18:54.912
Could you like not do that?

00:18:54.912 --> 00:18:57.472
Sam: Send me a picture of
a virgin pina colada thing.

00:18:57.502 --> 00:18:57.872
Yeah.

00:18:57.872 --> 00:18:58.822
Ali: Like, I'm so sorry.

00:18:58.822 --> 00:19:00.302
Like it was just, I just did not.

00:19:00.452 --> 00:19:00.932
I found this

00:19:00.932 --> 00:19:01.462
Joe: great gin.

00:19:01.802 --> 00:19:03.921
I'm like, Ali, fuck it up.

00:19:03.922 --> 00:19:05.065
One day at a time.

00:19:05.065 --> 00:19:06.862
I'm just trying not to drink over here.

00:19:07.262 --> 00:19:07.552
Yeah.

00:19:07.552 --> 00:19:08.442
Sam: It's the summer as well.

00:19:08.442 --> 00:19:08.722
Yeah.

00:19:08.722 --> 00:19:09.292
Ali: And like, I just.

00:19:10.037 --> 00:19:13.517
Just because I've been able to, I
suppose I would say have actually

00:19:13.707 --> 00:19:17.087
a really healthy relationship with
alcohol and that I really have just,

00:19:17.087 --> 00:19:19.477
uh, I don't ever drink to excess.

00:19:19.507 --> 00:19:22.317
I can count on one hand, the
amount of times I've drunk to

00:19:22.317 --> 00:19:24.067
excess since I've had my son.

00:19:24.077 --> 00:19:27.267
And that's, and all of those times
have actually been like when you're

00:19:27.267 --> 00:19:29.727
at a party and someone's just topping
up your drink and I've lost count.

00:19:29.818 --> 00:19:31.235
that's happened a couple of times.

00:19:31.235 --> 00:19:32.795
I get an engagement
and that sort of thing.

00:19:33.045 --> 00:19:35.495
That's the only time I've
ever had too much since.

00:19:35.860 --> 00:19:36.540
Sam: I've had my fun.

00:19:36.600 --> 00:19:37.230
That's interesting.

00:19:37.670 --> 00:19:38.700
You know what's so funny?

00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:40.880
Just earlier, I don't know
how this popped into my head.

00:19:41.430 --> 00:19:44.480
I was thinking about it, I was like,
I wonder if I could goad Ali into

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:45.610
having a big night at some point.

00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:47.710
But like, yeah, I probably couldn't.

00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:48.030
Ali: You couldn't.

00:19:48.060 --> 00:19:48.370
You couldn't.

00:19:48.370 --> 00:19:50.322
I, the, I was talking to
somebody recently about this.

00:19:50.332 --> 00:19:52.332
In the name of the pod
and research and whatnot.

00:19:52.342 --> 00:19:55.815
What it is, is I feel like
shit most of the time.

00:19:55.815 --> 00:19:58.002
The idea of being hung over.

00:19:58.857 --> 00:20:03.547
Is so unappealing that that is
the motivator to like, to stop.

00:20:03.747 --> 00:20:06.577
I just, I hate the idea of throwing up.

00:20:06.587 --> 00:20:09.407
I hate the idea of ever being sick again.

00:20:09.487 --> 00:20:13.387
I had, you know, I like the
last time I, yeah, I was sick.

00:20:13.417 --> 00:20:15.937
I actually had to take them,
like, you know, hungover.

00:20:15.957 --> 00:20:16.577
I'll give you the tip.

00:20:16.577 --> 00:20:17.947
I took the Monday off work as well.

00:20:17.947 --> 00:20:20.757
Cause it took me like, I was like, I
don't ever want to feel like this again.

00:20:21.107 --> 00:20:22.487
Sam: I took a Friday off
a few years ago for that

00:20:22.847 --> 00:20:23.197
Ali: reason.

00:20:23.527 --> 00:20:24.447
Five years ago.

00:20:24.447 --> 00:20:26.417
And I'm like, I'm still, it's still so

00:20:26.477 --> 00:20:27.477
Joe: I'll give you the tip Ali.

00:20:27.827 --> 00:20:28.447
No one stops.

00:20:28.677 --> 00:20:31.437
Drinking alcohol because of how
they feel after three drinks.

00:20:32.477 --> 00:20:35.147
People stop drinking alcohol because
of how they feel the next day.

00:20:35.637 --> 00:20:35.987
Sam: Yeah.

00:20:35.987 --> 00:20:36.217
Yeah.

00:20:36.217 --> 00:20:36.327
Yeah.

00:20:36.847 --> 00:20:38.357
The depression, the anxiety.

00:20:38.657 --> 00:20:38.747
Ali: Yeah.

00:20:38.787 --> 00:20:39.217
All of that.

00:20:39.227 --> 00:20:41.997
Like I just, I just, like, I feel
like shit most of the time anyway.

00:20:42.017 --> 00:20:45.037
I just don't want to induce
that in any way, shape or form.

00:20:45.047 --> 00:20:45.277
No.

00:20:45.437 --> 00:20:47.327
Sam: And I've started
to even anticipate it.

00:20:47.327 --> 00:20:50.737
Like on Christmas, I had like four,
yeah, four glasses of wine, I think.

00:20:50.927 --> 00:20:51.587
And.

00:20:52.352 --> 00:20:56.932
Not big pause either, but I could
already, as like I started to sober up,

00:20:57.002 --> 00:21:00.112
you know, like four in the afternoon or
whatever, I'm like, yeah, I can already

00:21:00.112 --> 00:21:01.712
feel the effects on my mental health.

00:21:01.712 --> 00:21:02.442
Like as we

00:21:02.442 --> 00:21:02.672
Joe: speak.

00:21:02.672 --> 00:21:04.282
You don't stop at four in the afternoon.

00:21:04.292 --> 00:21:06.062
You've got to keep drinking
for the rest of the night.

00:21:06.172 --> 00:21:08.732
Oh, well, that's what I used to do, of
course, because that's how you don't,

00:21:08.912 --> 00:21:09.872
cause that, that's how you avoid.

00:21:09.882 --> 00:21:12.392
That's why I can't drink because
I don't want that, ever want

00:21:12.392 --> 00:21:13.692
that feeling of it wearing off.

00:21:13.762 --> 00:21:14.002
Well, the

00:21:14.002 --> 00:21:15.042
Sam: delayed, well, of course.

00:21:15.072 --> 00:21:18.555
And, and one of the things that really
helped me with addiction, Yeah, it's one

00:21:18.555 --> 00:21:21.665
of those things I want to actually talk
about it on the pod one day properly.

00:21:22.215 --> 00:21:25.555
Uh, I've stumbled across this
phenomenon of delay discounting.

00:21:25.835 --> 00:21:28.205
So it's been well studied in
the psychological literature.

00:21:28.205 --> 00:21:30.075
It's one of those ones
that's actually well proven.

00:21:30.805 --> 00:21:34.215
And we know this is well proven
because marketers use it all the time.

00:21:34.595 --> 00:21:37.335
And they have proper data on
what works and what doesn't.

00:21:37.715 --> 00:21:39.445
So I'll give you an example
of delay discounting.

00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.250
Buy this, get cash back, right?

00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:46.130
But, you have to go and fill this
thing out to get the cash back.

00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.305
Now, if you had, and It's not instant.

00:21:49.795 --> 00:21:51.625
You're not getting the
money till a few days.

00:21:51.625 --> 00:21:53.595
Joe: Yeah, that's like a Medicare
rebate for a psychologist.

00:21:53.595 --> 00:21:54.145
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:21:54.155 --> 00:21:54.605
Sam: exactly.

00:21:55.015 --> 00:21:55.705
Oh, you hate it.

00:21:56.305 --> 00:21:56.685
You hate

00:21:56.995 --> 00:21:57.305
Joe: doing it.

00:21:57.315 --> 00:21:59.725
You spend 180, you're
going to get 130 back.

00:21:59.725 --> 00:21:59.755
But

00:21:59.755 --> 00:22:02.185
Sam: you've got to do
the legwork to get it.

00:22:02.185 --> 00:22:02.875
And guess what?

00:22:03.245 --> 00:22:04.685
The government's relying on that.

00:22:05.135 --> 00:22:06.095
That you just won't do it.

00:22:06.485 --> 00:22:07.105
That you won't do it.

00:22:07.145 --> 00:22:11.355
And these marketers that offer you cash
back on purchases, they're relying on

00:22:11.365 --> 00:22:12.815
the majority of people not doing it.

00:22:13.335 --> 00:22:14.635
How does that relate to addiction?

00:22:16.270 --> 00:22:16.550
Okay.

00:22:16.550 --> 00:22:17.370
So great question.

00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:19.320
So delay to it's a well proven effect.

00:22:19.330 --> 00:22:20.440
That's what I'm establishing here.

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:26.040
So now how this relates to say alcohol,
cigarettes, all of it, gambling, is

00:22:26.050 --> 00:22:32.425
that the present you is underrating
how future them We'll be impacted

00:22:32.425 --> 00:22:34.275
by the actions of present you.

00:22:34.555 --> 00:22:38.805
So like the amount of drinking you're
doing now, present you's enjoying it in

00:22:38.805 --> 00:22:43.015
theory, future you's going to pay the
cost, but you discount that in your mind.

00:22:43.205 --> 00:22:46.575
And the gambler discounts the
fallout of having no money.

00:22:46.835 --> 00:22:50.295
And the smoker discounts the
health effects later in life

00:22:50.295 --> 00:22:51.335
because there's a delay.

00:22:51.895 --> 00:22:56.365
So it's, it's a, it's an, well, it's
related to present bias and, you know,

00:22:56.455 --> 00:23:00.085
salience error and all that, all those
sort of classic cognitive biases.

00:23:00.985 --> 00:23:03.795
But for me, it was a particularly
interesting one because it spoke

00:23:03.795 --> 00:23:05.915
to me about what my behavior was.

00:23:06.325 --> 00:23:10.545
And it goes beyond addiction to,
well, yeah, so delay discounting

00:23:10.545 --> 00:23:15.915
the effect of the hangover and, you
know, the effect on behavior, uh, and

00:23:15.915 --> 00:23:17.515
the effect of that on other people.

00:23:17.575 --> 00:23:20.345
Like it's all this stuff that's
downstream that we can easily

00:23:20.495 --> 00:23:21.585
write off in the present.

00:23:22.445 --> 00:23:25.015
But it also applies to positive
things that you want to do.

00:23:25.685 --> 00:23:29.835
You're delay discounting the positive
effect of something, of taking an

00:23:29.835 --> 00:23:33.825
action, and uh, you know, of working
on that novel at last, or whatever, you

00:23:33.825 --> 00:23:37.525
know, everyone's got these ambitions
that they may not be getting around to.

00:23:37.745 --> 00:23:41.035
Or we delay discount the pleasure
that we'll get from calling a friend,

00:23:41.435 --> 00:23:45.025
or organizing a social event in the
future, because it's in the future,

00:23:45.025 --> 00:23:48.555
like we're not, I'm not getting the
benefit now, so we'll delay discount it.

00:23:48.585 --> 00:23:52.285
So there are, without going too
far, I to a degree agree with the

00:23:52.285 --> 00:23:53.330
people that say this It's not.

00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:56.080
This might be one of the
single most important little

00:23:56.080 --> 00:23:57.890
psychological insights people need.

00:23:58.480 --> 00:23:59.710
Certainly was true for me.

00:24:00.090 --> 00:24:03.510
The more I thought about it, the more I
could see the effects of it in my life.

00:24:03.650 --> 00:24:07.165
And I just became determined
to Basically bring future and

00:24:07.165 --> 00:24:08.515
present me into alignment.

00:24:08.605 --> 00:24:09.385
I suppose that's how

00:24:09.385 --> 00:24:12.235
Ali: like, like techniques like
visualization or some people call

00:24:12.235 --> 00:24:13.705
it manifestation, that would work.

00:24:13.725 --> 00:24:14.135
It does.

00:24:14.135 --> 00:24:19.655
Because you're, you're visualizing
the impact of your future self.

00:24:19.705 --> 00:24:21.015
You're trying to make it seem more real.

00:24:21.025 --> 00:24:21.635
Seem more real.

00:24:21.645 --> 00:24:23.185
Like, yeah, like you're imagining.

00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:26.680
This is how, like, this is what I'm
doing once I've achieved this already.

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.860
And rather than, yeah.

00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:30.500
And, and yeah, like, I suppose, yeah.

00:24:30.610 --> 00:24:34.850
Helping use that as a motivating
factor, but it is so easy to, in

00:24:34.850 --> 00:24:38.020
that moment, discard that vision.

00:24:38.020 --> 00:24:41.635
And you think, ah, Fuck it, I'll have
the bowl of ice cream, but like, you're

00:24:41.645 --> 00:24:44.605
imagining yourself looking, you know,
great in bathers or whatever, but you're

00:24:44.605 --> 00:24:46.285
just like, nah, fuck it right now.

00:24:46.415 --> 00:24:46.785
Well, that's why

00:24:46.785 --> 00:24:49.975
Sam: weight loss is such a pernicious
one, because of course, most people

00:24:49.975 --> 00:24:52.975
that want to lose weight are up
against it on a biological level.

00:24:52.985 --> 00:24:56.665
And like, you know, it's been a
really, really, really long time

00:24:56.665 --> 00:25:00.865
since I thought anything judgmental
about a person based on their size.

00:25:00.865 --> 00:25:01.755
And I don't say that.

00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:03.110
To like, Oh, look at me.

00:25:03.110 --> 00:25:03.970
I'm so virtuous.

00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:04.860
Like I'm woke.

00:25:04.860 --> 00:25:07.520
I've like absorbed the messages
from the body positive community.

00:25:07.560 --> 00:25:11.410
No, I just, it came from my own
painful realizations about how no one's

00:25:11.410 --> 00:25:13.330
perfect and like everyone's struggling.

00:25:13.370 --> 00:25:13.700
Yeah.

00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:14.670
Ali: Yeah.

00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:15.290
It's, it's, it's

00:25:15.290 --> 00:25:15.840
Joe: really hard.

00:25:15.870 --> 00:25:19.470
Well, I think you've done well to start
off with a good, even if it wasn't a

00:25:19.470 --> 00:25:24.567
new year's resolution, because the last
month was like you were going into a

00:25:24.567 --> 00:25:26.297
period of not working the longest period.

00:25:26.297 --> 00:25:28.457
You hadn't worked in years and you

00:25:28.457 --> 00:25:28.767
Sam: had.

00:25:29.122 --> 00:25:29.332
And

00:25:29.332 --> 00:25:29.832
Ali: surgery.

00:25:29.892 --> 00:25:30.522
And surgery, yeah.

00:25:30.572 --> 00:25:30.952
Yeah.

00:25:30.952 --> 00:25:31.702
It's been a month.

00:25:31.703 --> 00:25:33.922
Joe: It's a brutal, brutal combination.

00:25:33.922 --> 00:25:36.562
I know as your friend that you
had plans going into that to

00:25:36.562 --> 00:25:38.132
do all kinds of great things.

00:25:38.162 --> 00:25:38.432
Yeah.

00:25:38.682 --> 00:25:41.902
But actually what happened was
intense back pain and depression.

00:25:42.597 --> 00:25:45.797
So you had a shit month and you
weren't even at work getting,

00:25:45.847 --> 00:25:47.097
you know, paid to be there.

00:25:47.387 --> 00:25:48.957
Sam: Yeah, and a little
bit of distraction.

00:25:48.957 --> 00:25:49.447
You could have

00:25:49.997 --> 00:25:54.977
Joe: just spiraled downwards and maybe
not even come back to do the podcast.

00:25:55.177 --> 00:25:55.787
I began

00:25:55.788 --> 00:25:56.032
Ali: to wonder.

00:25:56.032 --> 00:25:59.147
Yeah, like there was, I'm not gonna
lie, there was certainly moments of

00:25:59.147 --> 00:26:03.127
just like, oh, what, yeah, like really
dark thinking around like, yeah,

00:26:03.127 --> 00:26:05.937
going back to work, going back to
life, going back to doing anything.

00:26:05.947 --> 00:26:06.267
Yeah.

00:26:06.347 --> 00:26:06.677
but.

00:26:07.187 --> 00:26:07.497
I don't know.

00:26:07.497 --> 00:26:07.717
Yeah.

00:26:07.717 --> 00:26:09.807
There's been a few little
changes that have sort of, I

00:26:09.807 --> 00:26:11.747
feel like have, have helped.

00:26:11.777 --> 00:26:16.281
And it was, yeah, a bipolar depressive
episode triggered by which, you know,

00:26:16.471 --> 00:26:19.751
intense stress and pressure and pain and
all those things can trigger episodes.

00:26:19.751 --> 00:26:22.401
And absolutely, I would say that
was a contributing fact to having

00:26:22.401 --> 00:26:25.721
surgery and recovery from that
triggered this depressive episode.

00:26:26.161 --> 00:26:26.761
Um, so.

00:26:27.191 --> 00:26:31.231
I do feel the fog of that lifting,
so it's, you know, but it's

00:26:31.231 --> 00:26:33.321
the nature of the beast, right?

00:26:33.321 --> 00:26:35.401
Like it's, you know, I'm
going to have ups and downs.

00:26:35.411 --> 00:26:38.701
I don't know as many ups as I would
like, but like, you know, it was

00:26:38.701 --> 00:26:40.861
definitely a down, but I don't know.

00:26:40.861 --> 00:26:44.241
I do feel like, yeah, the
shift is starting to happen.

00:26:44.241 --> 00:26:47.681
I don't feel nearly as in such
a pit of despair as I did a

00:26:47.681 --> 00:26:49.451
week ago and then two weeks ago.

00:26:49.571 --> 00:26:49.891
So,

00:26:50.171 --> 00:26:50.431
Sam: you know.

00:26:50.441 --> 00:26:52.341
Well, keeping in mind also
another thing that really helped

00:26:52.341 --> 00:26:54.941
me, uh, minimum six weeks to.

00:26:55.771 --> 00:26:59.491
It takes to change our,
like an ingrained attitude.

00:26:59.571 --> 00:27:00.521
Yeah, absolutely.

00:27:00.741 --> 00:27:01.561
Just to shift it.

00:27:01.561 --> 00:27:02.361
Six weeks to shift.

00:27:02.551 --> 00:27:03.551
Ali: Yeah, exactly.

00:27:03.551 --> 00:27:03.861
Yeah.

00:27:03.861 --> 00:27:08.401
So like, it's, it feels very early
days, but they feel a little bit more

00:27:08.401 --> 00:27:11.681
positive than even the thinking I
had like a week ago, two weeks ago.

00:27:11.741 --> 00:27:12.031
Yeah.

00:27:12.121 --> 00:27:15.751
So yeah, but it's, yeah, it's
a bit of a, bit of a time.

00:27:16.023 --> 00:27:18.453
Joe: So, I had an idea for a
New Year's resolution for us.

00:27:18.503 --> 00:27:18.813
Yeah.

00:27:19.183 --> 00:27:22.393
We have wrestled back and forth,
and anyone who's listened to the

00:27:22.473 --> 00:27:26.813
show, we even tried to open the, the
show a couple of times with talking

00:27:26.813 --> 00:27:28.993
about diagnoses and stuff like that.

00:27:29.003 --> 00:27:33.220
But in our discussion before the show,
it was quite clear that, and also

00:27:33.220 --> 00:27:37.145
my three years of therapy, it was
really de emphasized the diagnosis

00:27:37.145 --> 00:27:41.125
thing, and the diagnosis thing implies
that it's It's like, uh, illness

00:27:41.145 --> 00:27:44.800
that's well defined, like other
illnesses, like cancer or something.

00:27:45.010 --> 00:27:50.421
But actually, autism, ADHD and
bipolar aren't really those things.

00:27:50.981 --> 00:27:55.751
And I think our news resolution, well,
what I'm proposing is we actually de

00:27:55.751 --> 00:27:58.491
emphasize the diagnosis side of things.

00:27:59.121 --> 00:28:03.121
And just be three hopefully vaguely
interesting people having a chat and

00:28:03.121 --> 00:28:06.551
if yeah, we can mention bipolar if
it's relevant like, like Ali just

00:28:06.551 --> 00:28:12.381
said about her depressive episode,
but actually it's like, I don't know,

00:28:12.581 --> 00:28:18.481
I, it was a game changer for me to
find a therapist who was just not very

00:28:18.511 --> 00:28:21.431
interested in the bipolar side of things.

00:28:21.491 --> 00:28:21.881
Oh really?

00:28:22.031 --> 00:28:22.481
Hang on.

00:28:22.571 --> 00:28:25.481
Well, she wanted to know
what, what made me tick.

00:28:25.991 --> 00:28:26.171
You

00:28:26.171 --> 00:28:26.621
Sam: know what?

00:28:26.621 --> 00:28:29.891
Psychotherapists, in my experience, have
never been interested in that stuff.

00:28:29.891 --> 00:28:30.581
That's, that's right.

00:28:30.581 --> 00:28:31.061
I think

00:28:31.061 --> 00:28:31.511
Joe: they,

00:28:31.866 --> 00:28:33.716
Ali: it's more like a
tool P for the psychiatry.

00:28:33.971 --> 00:28:34.211
Yeah.

00:28:34.241 --> 00:28:35.441
Psychiatry.

00:28:36.561 --> 00:28:39.171
Joe: You know, like, my
man's a set for life.

00:28:39.441 --> 00:28:39.681
Yeah.

00:28:40.131 --> 00:28:41.631
I can't see them changing.

00:28:41.751 --> 00:28:42.051
Right.

00:28:42.231 --> 00:28:46.251
So it's not very, I I'm not back
to see a psychiatrist, you know?

00:28:46.281 --> 00:28:46.551
Yeah.

00:28:46.581 --> 00:28:46.851
Yeah.

00:28:46.856 --> 00:28:46.916
Mm-Hmm.

00:28:46.996 --> 00:28:48.381
. So I'm, what am I trying to say?

00:28:48.561 --> 00:28:50.241
I'm just getting on with my life.

00:28:50.301 --> 00:28:50.601
Sure.

00:28:50.631 --> 00:28:50.901
Yeah.

00:28:50.901 --> 00:28:51.836
And I, I think that

00:28:51.836 --> 00:28:52.116
Sam: that's the.

00:28:53.001 --> 00:28:57.011
You know, basically, I mean, privilege
in a way is like not having to think

00:28:57.021 --> 00:29:01.191
about things and that, you know, whether
it's your identity, you know, your color

00:29:01.191 --> 00:29:05.701
or your gender or sexuality or mental
diagnoses and all of that, like, the

00:29:05.711 --> 00:29:08.581
less you have to think about it, the
more privilege you've got, basically.

00:29:08.611 --> 00:29:08.751
But

00:29:08.751 --> 00:29:13.676
Joe: see, this is The thing
I tried in like 2019 was to

00:29:14.306 --> 00:29:17.546
Sam: also you've had your BPD
diagnosis for a very long time.

00:29:17.836 --> 00:29:20.596
So you've had longer to basically
move through the stages of like

00:29:21.066 --> 00:29:22.356
overly identifying with it.

00:29:22.746 --> 00:29:23.296
BPD is borderline.

00:29:23.356 --> 00:29:23.426
I

00:29:23.426 --> 00:29:24.770
Joe: think it says B P

00:29:24.770 --> 00:29:25.526
Sam: A D.

00:29:25.526 --> 00:29:25.676
B

00:29:25.676 --> 00:29:26.306
Ali: P A D.

00:29:26.326 --> 00:29:27.006
B P A D.

00:29:27.046 --> 00:29:27.596
Bipolar

00:29:27.756 --> 00:29:28.496
Sam: Affective Disorder.

00:29:28.556 --> 00:29:29.996
Bipolar Affective Disorder.

00:29:29.996 --> 00:29:30.156
Yeah.

00:29:30.156 --> 00:29:31.536
Joe: Don't, uh, throw me in with the

00:29:31.536 --> 00:29:32.276
Sam: borderlines.

00:29:32.276 --> 00:29:32.626
No, no, no.

00:29:32.626 --> 00:29:33.046
Jesus Christ.

00:29:33.046 --> 00:29:35.256
No, you've expressed
your contempt previously.

00:29:35.300 --> 00:29:35.662
no, but

00:29:35.662 --> 00:29:39.082
Joe: what I was going to say is
there was a moment back in 2019.

00:29:39.627 --> 00:29:42.737
Where I think I just got so sick of
being a straight white guy and I was

00:29:42.747 --> 00:29:44.207
like, well, you should be sick of it.

00:29:44.512 --> 00:29:47.882
But for 20 years, I've had
this bipolar diagnosis.

00:29:48.332 --> 00:29:53.562
I can now promote myself on social media
as someone who's neurodivergent, and

00:29:53.562 --> 00:29:58.532
suddenly I join an identity subgroup,
which seemed at that point to be the only

00:29:58.532 --> 00:30:01.362
way to have any legitimacy in the culture.

00:30:02.352 --> 00:30:07.212
So, I did it, and I tried it, and there's
like a neurodivergent flag, and I talked

00:30:07.212 --> 00:30:11.282
about being neurodivergent, and I went
and got a job in mental health, and Sure.

00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:14.777
And I strongly reject that in hindsight.

00:30:14.877 --> 00:30:20.769
It's like, I reject all identity politics
for starters, but then to see that I need

00:30:20.779 --> 00:30:24.179
to hustle in that world was wrong too.

00:30:24.219 --> 00:30:29.225
And this show is really hard to explain
to someone simply, but it feels false

00:30:29.225 --> 00:30:33.905
when I say, well, what it is is three
neurodivergent people talking about life.

00:30:34.635 --> 00:30:39.635
Sure, kind of, and when I met a
marketing person, that was the angle

00:30:39.635 --> 00:30:44.955
she strongly pushed if you want
to find listeners or get Beyond

00:30:45.065 --> 00:30:46.865
Blue to sponsor you or something.

00:30:46.865 --> 00:30:49.055
Sam: Specificity is value.

00:30:49.535 --> 00:30:50.835
Yeah, I just I suppose

00:30:50.835 --> 00:30:54.120
Ali: like having that Identifying
factor could help somebody

00:30:54.120 --> 00:30:55.170
who's just a starting point,

00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:57.310
Joe: some people off, like, why?

00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:59.440
I don't want to go and listen
to these three crazies,

00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.690
Ali: you know?

00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:00.050
Yeah.

00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:02.340
But that's the thing,
you're it's identifying what

00:31:02.390 --> 00:31:03.710
Joe: this is about.

00:31:03.750 --> 00:31:05.180
For comedians that would make sense.

00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:06.350
Oh, people go, yeah, I want to check

00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:06.840
Sam: that out.

00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:07.950
No, no, that works both ways.

00:31:08.020 --> 00:31:08.340
But I

00:31:08.490 --> 00:31:09.600
Ali: was going to say, I think like.

00:31:10.265 --> 00:31:14.135
So personally, I, I don't think,
like, I don't identify with any

00:31:14.135 --> 00:31:15.895
of my one, any of my diagnosis.

00:31:15.895 --> 00:31:17.629
I don't wake up in the morning
and think this is who I am.

00:31:17.629 --> 00:31:21.495
No, I don't think of any, like,
it's not a, it's not something

00:31:21.495 --> 00:31:22.485
I strongly identify with.

00:31:22.515 --> 00:31:26.085
But like I said, that, like you said, that
there's a privilege that comes from that.

00:31:26.505 --> 00:31:27.435
But I.

00:31:28.060 --> 00:31:31.060
Uh, yeah, I just, I've always said,
it's just like, it's a part of me,

00:31:31.060 --> 00:31:33.210
but it's not the most interesting
thing about me is the thing.

00:31:33.530 --> 00:31:40.170
And so I think while the label is relevant
as far as the podcast and what we have to

00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:44.560
offer because it is through the lens of
three neurodivergent people, it's just,

00:31:44.620 --> 00:31:48.812
it is just one facet of three people, you
know, and, and our experiences are going

00:31:48.812 --> 00:31:53.632
to be shaped by the, that label or those
labels that we all share, but it's not.

00:31:54.247 --> 00:31:56.547
It's not the defining
necessarily feature of the show.

00:31:56.587 --> 00:32:00.467
So whether you want to, you know,
moving forward, you know, mention

00:32:00.467 --> 00:32:03.467
it or like, I, like, I, I think it
does help like from the marketing

00:32:03.467 --> 00:32:08.337
perspective of having, you know, people
seeking out voices of neurodivergent

00:32:08.387 --> 00:32:10.707
people, because there are people who
are, you know, particularly with the

00:32:10.707 --> 00:32:13.097
awareness around it now, it's like,
Oh, I want to know a bit more about it.

00:32:13.117 --> 00:32:14.577
I want to know what other
people's experiences are.

00:32:14.797 --> 00:32:16.467
People are going to gravitate
it towards it for that.

00:32:16.467 --> 00:32:17.867
But like you said, similarly,
they're going to be other

00:32:17.867 --> 00:32:18.767
people who are just like.

00:32:19.112 --> 00:32:21.332
Oh, well, that's, that doesn't apply to
me, so I don't want to hear about that.

00:32:21.372 --> 00:32:21.612
And

00:32:22.372 --> 00:32:25.912
Sam: when it comes to the,
the reason I wanted to do an

00:32:25.912 --> 00:32:28.022
audio show on an RSS feed, i.

00:32:28.032 --> 00:32:28.042
e.

00:32:28.042 --> 00:32:35.190
a podcast is And I'm going to talk about
how I came to be interested in these.

00:32:35.190 --> 00:32:39.789
So, I started out with generic,
you know, quite generic listening

00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:43.467
habits, like just going after the top
shows, which is what most people do.

00:32:43.717 --> 00:32:47.437
But then over time, you start
becoming, well, hopefully, you start

00:32:47.437 --> 00:32:50.457
becoming more aware of things that
are more niche and more specific.

00:32:50.697 --> 00:32:53.727
And it's not like only listen to
stuff that's, In your wheelhouse.

00:32:53.787 --> 00:32:54.647
I think that's a mistake.

00:32:54.647 --> 00:32:58.027
Also, I listen to conservative media
sometimes and you know, I listen to

00:32:58.087 --> 00:33:04.857
contrarian stuff to where I sit, but
I've started to move beyond the like just

00:33:05.037 --> 00:33:10.592
history and current events and Top, you
know, sort of topic based stuff that I was

00:33:10.592 --> 00:33:16.652
listening to a lot of and started, started
becoming interested in what a individual

00:33:16.692 --> 00:33:21.162
people could teach me just through their
example and just spending time with them.

00:33:21.842 --> 00:33:23.992
Oh, this, I like this person's demeanor.

00:33:24.042 --> 00:33:26.442
I like their way of looking at life.

00:33:26.442 --> 00:33:29.932
I want to learn more from this person
in particular and just through this,

00:33:30.042 --> 00:33:32.682
just, just by listening to what they
choose to put on the internet, right?

00:33:33.482 --> 00:33:34.692
And the other thing was.

00:33:35.357 --> 00:33:39.137
You can't, I started to find shows
that were very, very niche for like,

00:33:39.167 --> 00:33:43.907
and for me, and for maybe only 500
or 1, 000 or, you know, I listen to

00:33:43.907 --> 00:33:47.837
a lot of very small shows that are
perfect, that they just do something

00:33:47.837 --> 00:33:53.596
particularly well, and The value, I just
don't think you can be too specific.

00:33:53.796 --> 00:33:56.016
And the reason I was attracted
to this medium is its

00:33:56.036 --> 00:33:58.026
specificity, not its generality.

00:33:58.096 --> 00:34:02.157
And like, you know, if I wanted, you know,
to do a variety show, I would do that.

00:34:02.277 --> 00:34:03.687
And that is something I'm interested in.

00:34:03.687 --> 00:34:05.347
I like the general as well.

00:34:05.767 --> 00:34:11.908
But it's, I agree that neurodiversity
doesn't capture really any human

00:34:11.908 --> 00:34:13.398
being adequately, I don't think.

00:34:13.418 --> 00:34:14.468
And that's kind of the point.

00:34:15.238 --> 00:34:20.313
Any more than like a You know,
describing someone's gender is, you know,

00:34:20.333 --> 00:34:24.287
especially revealing about what they
might do or what they might think, and

00:34:24.287 --> 00:34:26.747
in general, the less, I agree entirely
with both of you, that the less I

00:34:26.767 --> 00:34:28.737
think about identity, the happier I am.

00:34:29.137 --> 00:34:32.627
Um, the less I identify with the
category male or white or straight,

00:34:32.897 --> 00:34:34.687
and the less I identify with, yeah.

00:34:34.687 --> 00:34:34.979
I

00:34:34.979 --> 00:34:39.127
Joe: think we should wrap it up, but
I guess that's what I'm saying for us

00:34:39.127 --> 00:34:44.073
going forward is, To maybe de-emphasize
that because some days identify more as

00:34:44.133 --> 00:34:46.083
an, as a melburnian than anything else.

00:34:46.083 --> 00:34:49.953
Or, oh, days identify more as a
parent's, a north, a northsider.

00:34:50.013 --> 00:34:50.343
Yeah.

00:34:50.463 --> 00:34:52.233
So days I identify more as a parent.

00:34:52.233 --> 00:34:55.173
Sometimes I identify more
as a worker and a film crew.

00:34:55.203 --> 00:34:55.593
Yes.

00:34:55.743 --> 00:34:56.913
Worker and yes.

00:34:56.973 --> 00:34:59.883
You know, like that's how I was
identifying all day yesterday.

00:35:00.003 --> 00:35:00.303
Mm-Hmm.

00:35:01.063 --> 00:35:02.143
Sam: We're all wage slaves here.

00:35:02.173 --> 00:35:03.273
That's another thing worth pointing

00:35:03.273 --> 00:35:03.443
Joe: out.

00:35:03.523 --> 00:35:08.833
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's, maybe
from now on we run it as an entirely

00:35:08.843 --> 00:35:11.463
Marxist show and get rid of the
spiritual stuff at the start.

00:35:12.433 --> 00:35:14.253
Start with a Karl Marx quote every week.

00:35:14.453 --> 00:35:17.243
Sam: Oh, sure, I'd love to
do a Red Reading Room, but

00:35:17.423 --> 00:35:19.833
Joe: equally Well, that can be
maybe one of your other projects.

00:35:19.833 --> 00:35:20.523
But I, but I, but

00:35:20.523 --> 00:35:23.433
Sam: I like doing, but I like doing
the woo woo stuff a little bit.

00:35:23.433 --> 00:35:23.508
I know.

00:35:23.763 --> 00:35:24.093
I

00:35:24.093 --> 00:35:24.513
Joe: enjoy it.

00:35:24.513 --> 00:35:27.423
I had a friend who said he won't listen
to it 'cause he's not into spiritualism.

00:35:27.483 --> 00:35:28.893
And it's like, but that's the point.

00:35:28.893 --> 00:35:33.333
The 10,000 things, the 10,000 things
are mostly the not spiritual things

00:35:33.333 --> 00:35:34.923
that are the illusion of That's right.

00:35:34.983 --> 00:35:35.313
Fucking

00:35:35.313 --> 00:35:38.313
Sam: Maya stuck in the
entanglements of Maya.

00:35:38.313 --> 00:35:38.613
That's right.

00:35:38.613 --> 00:35:38.673
Yeah.

00:35:39.148 --> 00:35:39.349
Joe: A hundred percent.

00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:41.523
Whereas, you know, loving
awareness is the reality.

00:35:41.613 --> 00:35:41.823
Yes.

00:35:41.828 --> 00:35:45.633
Now how much you two have signed onto
that is, is attention within the show.

00:35:45.633 --> 00:35:46.413
It's a great one.

00:35:46.473 --> 00:35:47.253
Uh, and Ali.

00:35:47.368 --> 00:35:50.808
Certainly not much at all, but,
but it's still the framing.

00:35:51.238 --> 00:35:54.267
of a spiritual nut, right?

00:35:54.348 --> 00:35:54.628
Yeah,

00:35:54.628 --> 00:35:55.898
Sam: of course, a tasty nut.

00:35:56.078 --> 00:35:56.558
So that's

00:35:56.558 --> 00:36:01.298
Joe: the I like that It's sad to
me that someone won't listen to it

00:36:01.298 --> 00:36:03.568
because they think we're just going
to talk about spiritualism all the

00:36:03.568 --> 00:36:03.768
Sam: time.

00:36:03.778 --> 00:36:06.058
That is sad, and I think it would
be sad if someone didn't listen

00:36:06.098 --> 00:36:09.438
because, ugh, neurodivergent, that
turns me off for whatever reason.

00:36:09.658 --> 00:36:09.958
Yeah.

00:36:09.968 --> 00:36:10.558
I'm like, yeah, okay.

00:36:10.598 --> 00:36:10.708
But

00:36:10.708 --> 00:36:15.138
Joe: given that, despite your huge
ambition, Sam, I don't know if

00:36:15.138 --> 00:36:18.818
we're ever gonna Hit exponential
growth and millions of listeners.

00:36:18.818 --> 00:36:19.578
Oh, no, no, no.

00:36:19.698 --> 00:36:22.198
Maybe we don't have to
try and Doesn't have to.

00:36:22.248 --> 00:36:24.248
Here's the New Year's resolution
and we'll finish on this.

00:36:24.378 --> 00:36:26.968
I think we should have
no angle for this show.

00:36:27.168 --> 00:36:28.168
There is no angle.

00:36:28.328 --> 00:36:30.168
We're not trying to sell you anything.

00:36:30.598 --> 00:36:33.618
We're not trying to like categorize
ourselves in any particular way.

00:36:33.698 --> 00:36:33.978
No.

00:36:34.128 --> 00:36:36.768
We've got enough runs on the
board as being able to have

00:36:36.798 --> 00:36:37.888
good chats with each other.

00:36:37.898 --> 00:36:38.318
Of course.

00:36:38.668 --> 00:36:39.418
Put it out there.

00:36:40.088 --> 00:36:41.198
Sam: I think Sink or swim.

00:36:41.208 --> 00:36:42.468
The value is in the doing.

00:36:42.468 --> 00:36:43.258
I've always said this.

00:36:43.788 --> 00:36:48.238
Like, it's me, the numbers
don't motivate or demotivate

00:36:48.278 --> 00:36:49.908
me, they just, they just happen.

00:36:49.978 --> 00:36:54.168
Like, if, if I hadn't already, you
know, as my friend Ahsan said one time,

00:36:54.178 --> 00:36:56.978
you know, no, I've had my fun twice
over, I don't care what happens next.

00:36:57.328 --> 00:37:00.318
And I'm like, that is the right,
that's the right attitude.

00:37:00.518 --> 00:37:04.325
And that's a person, I'll say a bit
more, that's a person who would make

00:37:04.325 --> 00:37:09.405
New Year's resolutions with a degree of
success, I would predict, but it's sort

00:37:09.405 --> 00:37:15.030
of not really necessary because he's
constantly Just, he's a big process guy.

00:37:15.160 --> 00:37:18.210
Just always doing the process, whatever
it is, and just carrying it out

00:37:18.240 --> 00:37:21.340
and getting the results over time,
but not doing it for the results.

00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.300
You know, it kind of brings me back
to the Hare Krishna upbringing I had,

00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:27.583
which was, you're not supposed to be
attached to the outcome of your actions.

00:37:28.653 --> 00:37:32.683
Joe: Yeah, and this is the first,
the closest I've ever gotten to that.

00:37:33.223 --> 00:37:35.293
It used to be about wanting maximum

00:37:35.443 --> 00:37:35.783
Sam: love.

00:37:35.793 --> 00:37:39.843
Fill that theatre with your short
film and get with your documentary

00:37:39.843 --> 00:37:40.113
Joe: or whatever.

00:37:40.113 --> 00:37:40.913
It's completely different.

00:37:40.933 --> 00:37:44.073
Once it was explained to me
it could be like a zine and

00:37:44.083 --> 00:37:45.843
maybe someone just finds it.

00:37:45.843 --> 00:37:46.093
Yes.

00:37:46.318 --> 00:37:50.558
In a bar and they flick through it and
they're like, 50 people have seen that.

00:37:50.558 --> 00:37:50.978
Zeenster

00:37:50.978 --> 00:37:52.298
Sam: dreams of wild failure.

00:37:53.048 --> 00:37:53.788
Yeah.

00:37:53.818 --> 00:37:54.218
Yeah, they don't

00:37:54.218 --> 00:37:54.498
Joe: dream of wild failure.

00:37:54.498 --> 00:37:57.348
Then I dropped it and
I was like, Oh, okay.

00:37:57.858 --> 00:37:58.508
Okay.

00:37:58.548 --> 00:37:58.948
Yeah.

00:37:59.008 --> 00:37:59.268
Yeah.

00:37:59.648 --> 00:38:01.788
So then we have complete
intellectual freedom.

00:38:01.838 --> 00:38:02.178
Exactly.

00:38:02.458 --> 00:38:05.128
To not have to run things
back through a psychiatric

00:38:05.628 --> 00:38:05.858
Sam: filter.

00:38:05.868 --> 00:38:07.028
I think we've always had the freedom.

00:38:07.338 --> 00:38:08.848
Marketing is just what you do.

00:38:09.573 --> 00:38:10.763
To move units.

00:38:10.813 --> 00:38:11.853
Yeah, it's interesting.

00:38:11.973 --> 00:38:12.893
It doesn't describe the product.

00:38:13.043 --> 00:38:13.113
But

00:38:13.113 --> 00:38:15.413
Ali: I think just, I don't know,
I'm just genuinely thrilled that

00:38:15.463 --> 00:38:18.393
anybody listens, even if it's a 14
year old girl's bitching about me.

00:38:18.403 --> 00:38:22.633
Like I'm just thrilled that somebody
would actually find what I have to say

00:38:22.633 --> 00:38:22.743
Joe: interesting.

00:38:23.503 --> 00:38:26.163
Like, I don't think I ever get
a message from someone about

00:38:26.163 --> 00:38:27.403
the show that I don't reply.

00:38:27.483 --> 00:38:28.843
Thanks so much for listening.

00:38:28.913 --> 00:38:30.743
Sam: Yes, and well, absolutely.

00:38:30.743 --> 00:38:32.963
It's a hugely, hugely affirming.

00:38:32.963 --> 00:38:35.493
So by the way, if anyone's been
sitting on a comment that they

00:38:35.493 --> 00:38:38.223
want to, you know, throw in our
direction, please don't sit on it.

00:38:38.283 --> 00:38:38.573
We're.

00:38:38.848 --> 00:38:41.298
There's no such thing as like
getting too many of those.

00:38:41.318 --> 00:38:42.201
they always count.

00:38:42.211 --> 00:38:45.481
They always get reposted on the
WhatsApp, um, like between the

00:38:45.811 --> 00:38:47.121
four of us, Hugh's on there too.

00:38:47.401 --> 00:38:51.831
And like we celebrate each time we hear
from people, which is often enough that,

00:38:51.851 --> 00:38:55.021
you know, maybe we could get blasé,
but no, it still feels like a massive

00:38:55.021 --> 00:38:56.621
win every time we hear from somebody.

00:38:56.931 --> 00:38:59.559
And actually yesterday I was
at, no, the day before I was at

00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:03.659
the pool and ran into a mate and
she introduced me to her sister.

00:39:03.959 --> 00:39:08.149
And she goes, ah, Sam from the
podcast, and I was like, yes!

00:39:08.149 --> 00:39:12.204
Ali: Yeah, you do, you feel like, that
happened to me at a wedding last year,

00:39:12.204 --> 00:39:14.544
and it was like, someone came up to me
and was like, look, I've been listening

00:39:14.554 --> 00:39:18.614
to it, like someone who I hadn't seen in
years, and I wasn't even aware that, and

00:39:18.614 --> 00:39:20.974
I was like, wow, that's, I feel famous.

00:39:20.974 --> 00:39:24.754
Joe: It's the strangest thing because
it's on the internet, it's not,

00:39:24.804 --> 00:39:28.114
it's on, it's available to 8 billion
people if they want to find it.

00:39:28.304 --> 00:39:30.424
To listen to it, but we have
no way of finding listeners.

00:39:30.864 --> 00:39:32.104
But anyway, yeah.

00:39:32.154 --> 00:39:32.394
I mean,

00:39:32.494 --> 00:39:34.864
Sam: I think you've done very, I
think you two have done very well.

00:39:34.864 --> 00:39:36.404
Just, you know, spruiking it.

00:39:36.404 --> 00:39:36.604
But

00:39:36.684 --> 00:39:40.944
Joe: I mean, it's, it's, it's funny
because whenever we get a clip, a

00:39:40.944 --> 00:39:44.764
clean, some clean air of Ali and put
it on TikTok, it goes massively viral.

00:39:44.764 --> 00:39:46.164
Yes, that's one of my albums.

00:39:46.324 --> 00:39:48.654
Sam constantly says, yep, yep, yep.

00:39:48.684 --> 00:39:50.514
You can't really get clean air of Ali.

00:39:50.514 --> 00:39:51.924
So we can't go that viral.

00:39:52.224 --> 00:39:53.824
And then when I say,
Sam, maybe don't do that.

00:39:53.824 --> 00:39:54.234
Just nod.

00:39:54.234 --> 00:39:55.274
He goes, I've got ADHD.

00:39:55.274 --> 00:39:56.314
You can't tell me what to do.

00:39:58.954 --> 00:39:59.564
Wow.

00:39:59.584 --> 00:40:00.074
Okay.

00:40:00.304 --> 00:40:00.604
Okay.

00:40:01.264 --> 00:40:02.874
He's holding Ali's career back on TikTok.

00:40:04.114 --> 00:40:04.574
Sam: It's true.

00:40:04.904 --> 00:40:07.263
And you know, and actually there's
another way to think about, marketing,

00:40:07.263 --> 00:40:11.493
for example, like those clips on
TikTok, uh, worth doing for two reasons.

00:40:11.953 --> 00:40:12.273
They.

00:40:13.258 --> 00:40:14.458
They give Ali a boost.

00:40:14.638 --> 00:40:15.738
I think that's what, that's

00:40:15.748 --> 00:40:16.038
Joe: one reason.

00:40:16.038 --> 00:40:18.331
Yeah, Ali just sits there
watching the, the counter.

00:40:18.331 --> 00:40:18.777
Think of,

00:40:18.778 --> 00:40:22.998
Ali: and I'm just like, wow, this is like,
I just find that fascinating that people

00:40:23.218 --> 00:40:23.898
Sam: would listen to it.

00:40:23.898 --> 00:40:27.848
How affirmative for a girl who thought
she never had anything of value.

00:40:27.858 --> 00:40:27.878
Yeah,

00:40:28.558 --> 00:40:31.168
Ali: it really is like, I mean,
regardless of whether it was TikTok

00:40:31.168 --> 00:40:34.238
or even just, yeah, people coming up
and, and, or like friends and family

00:40:34.238 --> 00:40:37.163
who've listened to the show and
have just, said really nice things.

00:40:37.683 --> 00:40:40.933
Like I said, I just, every single
time I am just so surprised that

00:40:40.943 --> 00:40:45.703
anyone has, you know, taken the time
to listen to what I have to say and

00:40:45.703 --> 00:40:49.973
actually enjoyed it, you know, or even
not enjoyed it, just like actually

00:40:49.983 --> 00:40:51.293
taking that time out of their day.

00:40:51.293 --> 00:40:53.013
I'm just really grateful
for, I think it's.

00:40:53.318 --> 00:40:53.528
It's

00:40:53.528 --> 00:40:53.788
Joe: amazing.

00:40:53.798 --> 00:40:56.548
Yeah, well, it's nice to have you back
Ali, you were a little bit fried the

00:40:56.548 --> 00:40:59.768
last time we recorded and when you
were listening back the last episode,

00:41:00.288 --> 00:41:04.178
me and Sam just yelled at each other
about different intellectual figures

00:41:04.178 --> 00:41:06.938
on the internet and you just didn't
say much so you were a bit, and

00:41:06.938 --> 00:41:09.828
then afterwards you said, oh geez, I
didn't really feel myself that day.

00:41:09.838 --> 00:41:10.208
Yeah.

00:41:10.358 --> 00:41:13.928
So you've come back 2024 firing
I would say, you're looking rosy

00:41:13.928 --> 00:41:18.718
cheeked, you seem to be breathing,
breathing well, fresh lungs,

00:41:18.867 --> 00:41:22.387
Sam: sorry, I've been listening to a lot
of, um, listening to a lot of podcasts

00:41:22.387 --> 00:41:26.127
with women who know psychology and they're
explaining things to me and I love it.

00:41:26.127 --> 00:41:26.997
That's my new thing.

00:41:27.297 --> 00:41:28.617
I listen to one about attachment.

00:41:28.617 --> 00:41:31.197
I listen to another one about confidence.

00:41:31.197 --> 00:41:34.767
I listen to another
one, uh, relationships.

00:41:34.801 --> 00:41:37.891
And, um, they always, you know,
gimme cool little, uh, things.

00:41:37.891 --> 00:41:43.153
And, uh, one of them was, uh, identity
statements are useful when they're.

00:41:43.503 --> 00:41:48.364
In the form of I am becoming, so like,
where is it going is, is more important

00:41:48.364 --> 00:41:49.784
than what you think it is right now.

00:41:50.484 --> 00:41:56.234
And so for me, I am becoming a person
who finds it easier to throw stuff

00:41:56.234 --> 00:41:57.584
away when it's time to do that.

00:41:57.614 --> 00:42:02.674
And I'm, I'm, I am someone who is finding
it easier to know when it's time to.

00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:07.339
Put something out on the nature strip
or for free on Facebook marketplace.

00:42:07.369 --> 00:42:12.199
And so that's something that's really
high on the list out with stuff.

00:42:12.329 --> 00:42:16.783
And also though, do some
cluttering of my own and clutter

00:42:16.783 --> 00:42:18.133
the internet more with stuff.

00:42:18.133 --> 00:42:19.743
So, you know, that's virtual

00:42:19.993 --> 00:42:20.263
Joe: stuff.

00:42:20.293 --> 00:42:20.493
Yeah.

00:42:20.543 --> 00:42:23.363
2024 Sam content coming your way.

00:42:23.423 --> 00:42:23.763
Yeah.

00:42:23.763 --> 00:42:27.535
Sam: So, and, and I guess my concluding
thought is rather than like some

00:42:27.545 --> 00:42:30.315
huge goal, I think it's like this.

00:42:31.430 --> 00:42:34.660
Pick, pick one or two things that
are good or affirming or, you know,

00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.490
feel like they're having a benefit
on your life and just go, let's

00:42:37.490 --> 00:42:39.020
just do a little bit more of that.

00:42:39.030 --> 00:42:43.740
Like I think the goal should always just
be a little bit more of whatever's good.

00:42:44.200 --> 00:42:47.910
And you know, like with doing pods or
whatever, it's just like 1 percent better.

00:42:48.405 --> 00:42:53.145
You know, as we go on, like that's, that's
good enough, you know, after a hundred

00:42:53.145 --> 00:42:54.335
shows you're a hundred percent better.

00:42:54.825 --> 00:42:57.215
I think we've already, we're already
five hundred percent better than

00:42:57.215 --> 00:43:01.125
when we started and the benefits
are still being felt personally.

00:43:01.315 --> 00:43:02.995
Joe: Quite a few people probably
switched off when we started

00:43:03.025 --> 00:43:04.345
talking about the show itself.

00:43:04.435 --> 00:43:08.195
Sam: Oh, look, I think we should, you've
got to go meta occasionally, but you've

00:43:08.195 --> 00:43:09.485
got to limit, you've got to limit it.

00:43:09.545 --> 00:43:13.795
Um, and actually on that topic, in
the next episode, I do want to read

00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:18.870
At least one, uh, thing we've received
from people because I feel like there's

00:43:18.870 --> 00:43:21.960
this massive backlog of great comments
and I kind of want to do something

00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.910
with those, but, you know, that's it.

00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:25.030
That's a new year's resolution.

00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:26.320
Joe: Well, happy new year, everybody.

00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:27.100
Happy new year.

00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:31.010
It's going to be obviously
terrifying world to live in.

00:43:31.010 --> 00:43:33.950
But apart from that, living in
Melbourne might be all right, who knows?