Shannon Putman: Hello everybody.
Welcome back into the pop.
I could not be more pumped for today.
We have a special treat.
We have Amir from virtually P is the co-founder and CEO.
And I did not attempt to say his last name because I did not wanna mess it up.
But he is going to, uh, tell us a little bit about himself.
Hi Amir.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Hi Shannon.
Really nice to be here.
Uh, just for all the listeners, it's uh, my last name is, uh, Bo.
And, uh, I was, I was just chat chatting with Shannon about, uh, all the, all the interesting stories as a child, uh, with what's, every way you can pronounce that name.
Shannon Putman: And I did not risk it.
Uh, and I, I, I was semi confident I could say it, but I was like, you know what, let's just go ahead and let him take it.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, well, you know, uh, now that I'm, I'm actually based in Europe as well, and the languages here are so fragmented in such ways that letters can be pronounced in like three, four different variations.
So it even gets worse, uh, over here.
Uh.
Shannon Putman: I can only imagine.
Like I said, we were talking and I said, you know, people struggle with put man, so I can't even.
Can't even begin to imagine.
But, welcome.
Would you care to, uh, kind of just let us know a little bit about your journey and what actually even is virtual leap and, and, uh, what are we gonna be excitedly talking about today?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yes, uh, my background is as a market researcher.
Uh, started my career, my hometown in Vancouver, and got into Grammys Publishing.
And then, uh, around 2015 I participated in my first.
I used as a platform for getting me into the virtual reality sector.
And at the exact same time, I started also writing for VentureBeat and TechCrunch on virtual reality, uh, because I had a real no business.
Um, getting into that, that business necessarily, um, uh, non-technical person, uh, realizing that the applications of this technology are so profound because it's the first, you know, embodied.
Digital format.
And, um, I, I became a believer of that because I, found myself in a VR stimulation, treating my own, uh, fear of heights, my vertigo.
So I became a quick believer.
But during the writing process for a few years for those publications, I, I really became firmly convinced that the only serious, critical applications for vr, it relates to categories that are connected to education or healthcare, and.
That's my my point of view.
The visceral, engagement and the level of data that you collect in those sectors is just, it's, it's, it's profound what can, um, be achieved with vr.
And so our company virtually is right the intersection of those two categories.
It's, virtual reality therapeutics, uh, cognitive therapeutics focused on, uh, treating, um, or even screening for cognitive, like learning challenges like a DHD.
Um, even, even we have, uh, research studies that relate to, um, autism and Asperger's and long covid and, and, traumatic brain injury, uh, really across so many of these areas that were our flagship product, enhanced vr.
It's kind of like gym for the Mind.
We have clinical evidence that it can be used as a treatment for these areas.
And more recently, in November, we released our first diagnostic called Cognitive Clear.
It's a more of a screening tool for early detection of cognitive illnesses like Alzheimer's disease.
Um, and that would be something you would do, let's say once a year as a cognitive checkup.
Shannon Putman: Absolutely fascinating.
And as somebody who, uh, was in special ed and still considers herself in special ed, um, I think it's a, Groundbreaking use of technology, especially because so many of our evaluation tools are so antiquated.
You know, if you look at like IQ testing, you know, we just even in more, more recent years have even gotten to a validated nonverbal IQ testing.
You know, and if you had looked at the, the typical scores of my students, they should just.
According to the scores, they should be able to not do much more than sit and draw on themselves.
And that couldn't have been further from the truth.
So that type of an aspect is, is very interesting to me.
And, you know, without giving away trade secrets or anything, how is it that you can utilize this technology to screen and, and get, you know, earlier?
'cause everybody knows early intervention is the key.
So how do you actually utilize this to achieve that?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: the starting point has to be on this, on the, resting on this, on the shoulders of everything that has come before it.
In, in 2D land.
Uh, so any, any of these, uh, moca tests, M-M-S-E-E, this sort of abbreviations I can say to people who have a, you know, cognitive science background, neurologists, doctors, they'll, they'll all be familiar with these, these tests that have been around neuropsychological assessment tools that have been around, uh, for decades and really haven't, changed even when they went from pen and paper to screen-based pen and paper in my point of view.
Uh, still they're the same tests.
They're not, uh, popular whatsoever.
I.
Easy to, to execute and, and relatively quick.
Uh, the value of VR and where the early screening possibilities comes in.
On the one hand, I would say the data quality is far richer because you have so many different systems all engaged in tandem in a vr.
Environment.
So we have a data infrastructure that's, that is collecting gesticulation of the arms and legs, the spinal, orientation and posture, physiological sensors like people dilation, tracking heart rate variability.
In fact, an algorithm is running in our system that takes those physiological sensors and calculates, uh, cognitive load your focus levels in real time.
even stress levels can be, I. Basically measured with just one device.
No special sensors required except for devices that have these, um, built in.
And, that engagement's one thing, data quality is of course, important, but it's that level of data.
So about 250,000 data points every two, three minutes they're being captured.
Um, an order of magnitude more data.
Uh, and that's one of the aspects for sure.
But the other, the other side is also VR can include categories like motor control skills and spatial orienta, spatial orientation, spatial audio awareness.
These are like categories that you would never have be able to, in one scoring system, have all in tandem, uh, unified together to give you a full understanding of that individual.
And, for example, using myself as a case.
My wife would make fun of me when we were traveling through some towns here in Europe 'cause she thinks I would like not pay attention and I would be still lost after a week not knowing where I'm going.
But in fact, when you look at my scores against the average of about 70,000 people, we've kind of, uh, captured, I have, not disability, but a, a deficit that's very clearly marked.
So there's nuances in the data that only digital format can.
Shannon Putman: That is unbelievable because I've been, collaborating with a, uh, another neuroscientist and she always talks about the hippocampus and the cau nucleus and the idea of, you know, having this spatial, ability to navigate and, you know, and it relating to Alzheimer's and all of those things.
So I'm seeing across the board, all of you guys talking about the same things, and I'm like.
It's, it's legit, you know, like everybody, and it's backed by science and, you know, whether or not people are choosing to believe it.
That's not, that's a different podcast I know.
But, it really drives what we do.
And like you said, seeing that correlation to real life is when.
People I think start to get it, you know, because VR is like, you know, a lot of people, especially in education, you know, teachers like, oh, I did the, you know, Google Expeditions or, oh, it's another piece of tech I have to learn.
And so we have to show them.
I. The impact that it can have in order for it to be worth it to learn a new technology and learn a new way of instructing.
And so for the people that look at something like, you know, with kind of skepticism, like, well, how can one system do all that?
You know, what do you, what do you say to them that are like, there's no way, uh, you know, one hood can check all these things.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, I mean, and, and it's, and it's also the pioneering days of VR where I would say, uh, I'm a critic of a lot of the powers that be like, meta and, and other, other, other companies that, decide to really put all their attention, the majority of their attention on, escapism.
Shannon Putman: Same.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: I think if they had put all that energy, into backing universities and researchers and clinical applications, they would find that the, the strongest and most durable mainstream application technology, uh, is exactly these types of educational and healthcare.
I. Use cases, uh, you know, you have to show the proof.
took us three years to develop, the, our first application enhanced vr.
And it took us another two years to get to the point of having five published papers, uh, three of which showed the A DHD, you know, therapeutic, application.
One for the i intellectual disabilities, another for even, um, improvement of emotional regulation outperforming meditation and and breath work.
Significantly because it's kind at first.
But by using these types of
control.
Essentially in increasing and improving executive function, which allows a person, let's say, uh, suffering from great anxiety to be able to better police their mental health, the flow of their thoughts.
And, uh, you gotta just go, Hey, here are the links to peer reviewed studies at really well known, uh, uh, publications.
Here is the documentations, of the research and design, uh, led by a, you know, multidisciplinary team that includes someone with a, you know, neuroscience background and a, proper, proper.
History of, being someone who's mission oriented to show this technology, um, is what it is.
But unfortunately we have always in new technologies or new hype cycle, sort of frontier tech, like vr, you have a lot of, crazy people at first just trying to make money.
And they do a lot of bad experiences at first and give people bad first impressions.
They create cyber sickness when cyber sickness shouldn't have.
even a side effect if it had been done correctly.
I mean, like this, the second product we just launched Clear, it's, it's oriented so much more medically than the first one, enhanced VR that, uh, we had to go back and forth, I think seven waves of testing with our hospital partner.
Um, in order to keep on changing and tweaking it, it's just not a, a, a quick rich sort of thing.
You can't cut corners.
and I hope when you've accrued that much after five years, like us, where a lot of our friends in the sector have long since passed away, you know, as, as, uh, what is it, fertilizer for the next generation that hopefully has better luck, but we've survived and have this legacy of.
Proof and data finally to just point to.
And if they don't want to, you know, take a look at a peer reviewed study, then that individual probably just isn't, um, even open to the possibility.
And that's, that's just not, uh, hopefully there's enough people to allow us to crack the system.
Um, and when the timing's right.
Shannon Putman: Yeah, absolutely.
If, if they're not gonna, like you said, if they're not gonna look at a peer reviewed study.
On this, then there's nothing you could say or do that's going to, to convince them.
And that's always been hard for me.
I always like, 'cause I know I'm right in the fact that this can help students.
And so it's like, you know, everybody's always been telling me, you gotta focus on the, you know, the believers.
And I'm like, no, I wanna make those non-believers unbelievers believe, because I know I'm right.
And.
An exercise in futility.
So I've gotten better about that.
you know, one of the things that, uh, I still hear, and, and especially because, you know, we were talking in early intervention is absolutely the key in any, you know, type of, negative thing, whether that be cancer, Alzheimer's, you know, uh, autism, things like that.
Uh, so what do you say to the people that are like, wow.
I know and, and we all know in the industry know why there's a false narrative around the magic 13 year age recommendation and then magically it turned to 10 and, and everything.
So what do you say to people that are like, well, is it safe?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, I think children is one.
Interesting, uh, just like you mentioned, uh, that that age seems to be pretty ar arbitrary and I know plenty of people who, are using VR for even, uh, children.
I. younger than 10, although I would think that a below seven is risky business only in the case of, I think the, uh, you know, the ocular development is still, um, in process, I think even to the age of seven.
Um, uh, it's not my forte necessarily, but I do know we don't wanna come in with something, under a certain age cap.
And even in that case, I don't think necessarily, uh, that's even true because.
I'm not gonna name names, but people who have had like, let's say five year olds, uh, using VR and it's seems to be really well received and so on.
Uh, I just think personally, probably above seven is the, the golden rule that I've seen, uh, more or less, uh, if you're doing it in a clinical study that's controlled.
That's, that's what I'm also telling, uh, people to, to do that over, uh, over 10 for sure.
no issues.
And I think probably ones.
It's children and really, um, people at, uh, post 60 years of age that I think are sometimes the earliest adopters of vr.
And, and the, and the latter is funny because people usually always think, oh no, that gener any older generation are absolute Luddites.
but I, my, my last article of interview was how, how untrue that is.
And we've done, um, so many, sorts of tests and, uh, research and even workshops with, uh, older adult, uh, institutes and so on.
And they always, in fact, are.
Our early, early adopters.
In fact, that's one of the main applications we're, we're right now deploying with the municipality of, of Lisbon, Portugal, where, uh, which is our headquarters, uh, is to, uh, deploy it across senior living.
Uh.
Shannon Putman: And I think that's a, that's a great point.
Um, I have used VR with students as young as five, but uh, it is always, I like kinda, I like the third grade, so the seven and up is where they can kinda, you know, I feel like it's really kind of the magic zone to get started.
But, um, with the students, Uh, younger and like, you know, five, it, it's always very selected, um, experiences.
It's for a short, um, um, a limited amount of time.
Very regimented.
And then also my concern was never, um, because I've never seen any medical research about any physical, problems.
Actually, there's been a couple studies out of, uh, Beijing that show that it improved vision, but, I worry about because of brain development, the, uh, risk of creating false memories, especially because VR is so advanced now and so real that students that young don't have the ability to, you know, really kind of distinguish between those two.
So I'm always very careful with that age because of those kinds of concerns.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: That's, so that's really, really, uh, I did not know about that study.
I'm not really, um, surprised either.
the educational system in many countries, You know, my upbringing, Canada, I have nothing positive to think about it from the point of view of, again, um, the, the, the potential of individualizing, curriculums and, and lessons to people who are visceral, viscerally oriented versus someone who's much more, you know, bookworm me.
I love psycho metric kind of, uh, types and stuff just because I love learning about.
Possibly a little bit more of my, my own shadow and why I make the mistakes I do, or maybe I don't make mistakes, they're just in the wrong environment and I'm not equipped for that particular way where you're put into rows, uh, what is it?
Depression, style of education, right?
Like fact creating factory workers and someone who's exhibiting a DH ADHD symptoms is actually because they should be outside walking, walking behind Aristotle in that, in that setting.
So the VR as a technology, it offers so much accessibility.
and potential ways to customize the experience for an individual learner.
Um, and I, I, I suppose if you don't apply it for even certain age groups that, um, we might be concerned about because we just don't understand, uh, where things can go wrong.
I think that, that those days are numbered and, um, with enough pioneering groups like ourselves, in fact, but others, in different areas, it, those days are, those are ahead of us and hopefully very soon.
Shannon Putman: Yeah, absolutely.
And also too, just because like, so like I always use my brother as an example.
Um, when we went to school, they still, A DHD wasn't even a thing and like really even yet talked about and stuff.
And, but with him, he never had to take a single note.
He passed every test and so he didn't present, you know, so like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't a problem.
But then you look at other things and it's like, oh, like his impulse control or, you know, emotional regulation was, you know, he might still suffer with.
So if we can.
teach students how to, um, you know, regulate and, and check in on themselves and things like that.
you know, because that's what I'm always fighting, you know, explaining a behavior does not excuse it.
So, you know, you may still have, uh, consequences and things like that, but we've got to start teaching, um, our students, you know, the type of emotional regulation and, and.
Emotional health that even, you know, that I didn't have.
'cause they just didn't know, you know, and, and to create emotionally healthy individuals.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: You know, this is like, uh, connecting to.
what I'm calling, and I, I don't mean to be a fear monger about it, but I can't, I just can't help myself.
And maybe it's once you're over a, a certain age as well, uh, you get into your time bubble gets more pronounced, and then my wife will go, oh, you're just a grumpy, you're getting becoming a grumpy old man when you talk to about young, you know, younger generations that way.
But I think we got algorithms out there that are actively trying to undermine our.
Generate a DHD and people who don't have it necessarily, or let's say forget it because I know I brought up the word A DHD and some people, uh, don't really see it anymore the way it's a problem.
They'll go, you know, cherish neurodiversity.
I, you know, I was diagnosed, um, with, uh, with A DHD, but.
And I prefer to see it as something to, to counterbalance in my own pursuit of wholesomeness in my own whatever version of wholesomeness I have.
Not to compare myself with others, but you know, there is a general map that I believe is objective, uh, to some extent, and.
Our scoring system and other types of tools out there.
They, they try to exemplify that and I think they do it, uh, quite well, like the big five personality test and is really well, um, something that I think is, is, um, everyone should be familiar, familiarize themselves with it.
but a DHD is being created.
Um, and now we got AI.
Uh, assistance or whatever you wanna call them, uh, this whole new thing that's popping up where the whole phenomenon, I don't think six months ago people were talking about cognitive offloading.
Now that's a new term that I will use often because what is gonna happen with this whole new generation that are completely engulfed by algorithms that are undermining their ability to focus and creating higher levels of distractibility, uh, in them by, hijacking their dopamine systems in all the wrong ways.
And through manipulation in, its, in its clearest definition of the word.
and at the same time, you have these tools that you're offloading because why should I make the effort?
And so I don't, I don't see the future so bright from my point of view of, of the younger generations.
Shannon Putman: couldn't agree more.
And I'm, and I'm not trying to sound like an old curmudgeon either, but it's like, you know, uh, e even nowadays, like I'm always saying the VR industry thinks that, um, education specifically, but also just like.
Kids, and I say that like 18 and under are so much more familiar and interested in VR than they are.
Um, you know, I was in, in talk, just talking to kids in, in the high school, uh, down the road and, and a lot of 'em aren't even like, don't even know about vr.
And people are like, yeah, but you know, meta had those Vader commercial sent in the other, and I'm like.
These kids don't watch tv.
They watch streaming and then TikTok.
And if, uh, you know, if, if they don't follow a gamer or any type of like, you know, Twitch streamer type thing, the only VR they're getting exposed to then, like you said, because of algorithms, might be the VR fails that we see.
And, and so then that's their exposure.
So I'm like, how can you know those of us that see the true scientific.
Legitimacy to this technology when implemented correctly, how do we reach these people and, and, and keep their attention long enough to convince them to at least give it a try?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah.
It, it's so, it's so strange to be, especially in this year, because with the AI.
it's all about hype cycles, right?
And, you know, the, the, the venture, the venture capitalist, It was funny.
I was on a call with one just today and they had in the background of their call, I don't know why, but they had Darth Vader there.
Um, and then, and then, um, now I look at your screen and I have Yoda.
So it was almost like I was on call with Darth Vader on that last one.
And I really do see VCs as these, you know, they.
Are funding what works.
And these algorithms know what works, but at what cost they're not.
Um, the, the model right now is, uh, quite desperately from their point of view, focused on finding unicorns.
And if they can't find one, they squeeze you to death until you become one.
Even science-based companies like ours that cannot, uh, achieve profits until like four or five years because we can't skip the science.
We can't.
We can't skip the, the rigor of, of the method.
and so we had a really hard time getting investment.
So a lot of these companies that don't have problem getting investment is because they show quick returns, quick, uh, you know, lottery tickets and if those algorithms are the way to it, and even they are, I think they don't think about their own children, uh, and what they're doing with their own investment, but the investors, they don't have the right, if someone was a founder all their lives and they had the, you know, the neuroplasticity with the, with the, with um, the big five personality, test of openness, which is matches up with like artists as well, right.
Artists and entrepreneurs typically match up with that if they start becoming an investor.
And after like six months, one year, I swear to.
Like their neuroplasticity would go to the dark side.
You know, that's, that's how we are.
We can mold ourselves to be a villain.
We just need the right, uh, training environment to become, um, uh, badly minded in how we do it.
But that's where we are right now.
The, the whole system investment is gonna be oriented to accelerating.
Everything that we're talking about, when we're concerned about there is no balance.
It's can you give us, uh, um, that return?
And I then I, I just saw a storm trooper, so maybe you are also maybe 10%, uh, evil yourself
Shannon Putman: Well, so it's funny, so the office was my husband's space, and anybody that's ever, uh, met me knows who Dam Jim is.
Um, and so he's a big, uh, star Wars fan.
And I like Star Wars too, don't get me wrong.
I'm, but he like read, you know, books and everything and so I used to get him and he's really hard to shop for, so I would get him like Star Wars stuff.
And so, uh, he, he.
Whether he likes it or not, he had to put it up 'cause I bought it for him.
So he's at least a smart husband in that respect.
Um,
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Okay, so I jumped the, I jumped the gun.
And by the way, just a quick note, my, um, brother-in-law is, Eva, I think he's even more hardcore, uh, star Wars, uh, than your husband I, because I can't imagine anyone more.
And I've gotten him throughout the, for that last 10 years, I think maybe 50, uh, star Wars socks.
Not underwear yet.
I'm losing, you know, but
Shannon Putman: Yeah.
gotta be, gotta be some boxer briefs next.
But you're right, it's a great default gift.
You know, you're like, if nothing else, like, and he lives Star Trek too, so I can, I got plenty of, you know, options at least.
Um, but you know, you're absolutely right in that I always have to tell people that the only guiding principle of Putman XR Consulting is what's best for students.
and I always, you know, have to say like, yes, of course I wanna make money because I need to pay my bills.
And I, and, you know, I've got a three-legged beagle, Peggy that I wanna spoil.
But, you know, I, I, I'm a backpack kind of gal, so I don't need coach purses.
I mean, unless coach wants to sponsor this podcast.
but, Like having to get people to understand your true intentions and, um, coming from education, I always feel like those of us that are in it for the right reasons, you know, we can get chewed up and spit out.
And that's happened to me multiple times.
so what is it that is makes Virtue leap different and from some of these other things, you know, 'cause like I already know because I, I, I know and I can see it, but what do you think sets you guys apart?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: You know, the, the, the thing about persisting through periods of time during Covid, I think it was a good solid whole year of me not knowing how to pay salaries month after month, you know, beginning.
I, I, I, by the time we got out of that situation, I was so used to it that I going to bed would be, um, my body would know that it's stressful time.
It was, it was conditioned to be.
So it was not fun.
This is a masochistic, uh, journey I went through and I don't really remember what I was right in the beginning.
I certainly didn't ever wanna be a, uh, go to sleep knowing I, stretched the truth, or, you know, we got into it because we saw, you know, autism running in our families.
We saw things that this kind of technology kinda excited us about, but we were also very naive about that.
But certainly we were, I'm not sure I would've continued as I did, as I have if I knew the whole picture at, at first.
Um, it's hard for me to, swallow that or say retroactively that, that we had that.
intention, we just, the house, we were burning the bridge behind us, so we had no other choice but to march forward and stubbornness kept us going.
So that legacy of developing something with game developers hand in hand with neuroscientists for since 2018 and how many companies do I remember that are not with us anymore, who gave up, or they even pivoted outside out, out of VR because they didn't, you know, just stay on.
And so staying on path means now we have these publications, we have four more pending publications this year.
That's just, it's just incredible to even get to that point.
And if anyone would ask you, who is the market leader of that, of this niche?
'cause it is a sector of niches.
Uh, who is the best?
Technology out there for VR pain management, which is probably the most well adopted worldwide VR application in a medical setting.
hands down, I think.
Um, there's plenty of others, but that one is like, I see it pervasively across Europe, Asia, uh, us, FDA, uh, you know, applied, applied, uh, vr, um, as, as the, as the big winner there.
The legacy of the research, the legacy of the documentation, the legacy of these kind of things.
It's, it's, no one would say there's a, there's another leader in the space even close to us when it comes to, uh, suffering as much as we have to get to where we are.
Um, but the leadership of me and my, my co-founder of 15 years Hossein, who's our CTO, I guess we're both in our early forties.
We've done a lot of, projects and things together.
I think we just start oriented towards having meaning.
And so when you have a leadership like that, the last thing we want is a toxic workplace.
I am the last thing.
This also helps not get investment often by Silicon Valley.
Sorts of VCs, it's, I will never jeopardize someone's mental health and my team, uh, in favor of, uh, uh, of accelerating something out of the market.
Steve, job style?
No.
I'm nothing like that.
And so I might not be the, the, the best overall, but we cer certainly are in this case, just because we're, we're really stubborn.
Shannon Putman: I love that.
And, and that's why I couldn't have been more excited to have you join us today because I know that, we align with that, that same purpose and, um, it is possible to do good and make money, and I'm learning to finally not feel guilty about that, because it's a hard thing, you know?
And so, I really appreciate that, uh, that that's.
Where you're coming from and, um, and you can see that in your work.
You know, like people can say that and you can tell they're kind of full of it, but with, um, with you guys, it absolutely isn't.
And so I encourage everybody to check it out and see.
And so if they wanted to check out virtually, what, what should they do?
I mean, obviously they can contact Pub XR Consulting, and I'm gonna link, you know, your guys' website and everything and, and LinkedIn's.
Um, but is there anything else that they should check out or that they could do?
Amir Bozorgzadeh: So our website, we, when we updated it recently, we really got so much, um, there.
But if anyone is like, let's say a a, my, my biggest thing, my, I'm, I really should be focusing on sales.
I'm horrible at it.
So what I do instead is just focus on research collaborators.
You know, apply for grants together and these kind of things.
Of course, in the US it's getting tougher, uh, due to all the craziness lately.
that's a whole nother, uh, podcast to even discuss.
Uh.
if someone wants to, uh, potentially look into doing research with us, for example, you know, adding me on LinkedIn, but directly, uh, is something I'm, I'm always open to.
I'm, I'm, I'm literally addicted to, to LinkedIn.
Um, I think it's not the worst of all of those things that I, I don't allow myself to use TikTok or, or even Instagram except for work, because I know how it's gonna mess me up.
But, but, um, uh, add me directly, my, my email as well is Amir at virtually.
That's easy.
Um, and, and you can request any specific information that you, that you have.
We're still small enough that we, we take every email seriously.
Um.
Shannon Putman: That is absolutely refreshing.
So thank you for that.
I really appreciate it.
It's been absolutely fantastic.
It's been so wonderful speaking with you.
And, um, you know, you're not getting away without the, uh, closing countdown, which coincidentally enough, I picked this before, which is why I thought, I don't know if you believe in all that, which I do, but in, in ways.
But, uh, I picked this, uh, topic before we started talking, and then our conversation kind of gave it away.
But, um, I wanted to ask you your.
Three favorite fictional villains.
So can't be obviously like Hitler.
Um, or I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get political and say who currently mine are, but your fictional villains, uh, of Alam can be comic book, movie, whatever.
And, uh, ho your three be.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: so Beetlejuice came to mind first just 'cause I even had nightmares of that, that dude.
yeah.
And it's just that look and intelligence really embodying the, the devil, but in a, in a way that almost could be someone you could enjoy having a beer with,
Shannon Putman: yes,
Amir Bozorgzadeh: you
Shannon Putman: yes.
And Michael Keaton was the best.
Batman.
I don't care what anybody says.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: it doesn't relate to Michael Keaton.
Uh, for some reason, for a second there, I thought it did.
It's more diehard, number one.
I just can't rem Rickman Alan Rickman.
Shannon Putman: Okay.
You don't, you can't remember his name.
All right.
I'm gonna have to school you.
Hans
Amir Bozorgzadeh: So, but, but the actor is a Alan,
Shannon Putman: Allen Rickman.
Yep.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: right?
Okay.
Yeah.
Hans Han.
I would've, I, I, the last name I forgot.
My gosh.
You are.
Um, and I'm a dork, but I feel in really good company right
Shannon Putman: Yeah.
Oh, movies.
I
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Intimidating right here.
Uh, so Hans is
Shannon Putman: point.
Do you know what his brother's name was?
And die Hard with a vengeance.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Well, I know his first name was Simon, so Gru, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Shannon Putman: Good, good.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: I, I, I, uh, I won back some
Shannon Putman: A little bit.
Yes.
You redeemed
Amir Bozorgzadeh: a, just a little bit.
Uh,
Shannon Putman: way more if you come up with Simon Cre, but you know That's all right.
Simon
Amir Bozorgzadeh: si, so definitely, definitely.
Shannon Putman: I love
Amir Bozorgzadeh: yeah.
Just that moment in him also falling.
Shannon Putman: Yes,
Amir Bozorgzadeh: never, it's etched in my immortal soul.
Shannon Putman: Well, Alan Rickman was amazing.
Like nobody else could have played that, and that was an amazing performance.
And no
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Oh gosh.
I,
Shannon Putman: with that.
Pick.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: this third one is just, I know I'm gonna, I'm picking, uh, uh, maybe the wrong ones.
Um, oh gosh.
I can't even, uh, uh, uh, Tyra and Lannister certainly is coming in my head as well.
Shannon Putman: that is also a very good one.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: So many good villains.
What a good question you're throwing out here.
I, I actually feel like I'm, I'm enriched by it.
Shannon Putman: Good.
The whole goal of the closing countdown is to ask you questions that like nobody else has asked you and stuff, obscure because I wanna, you know, it's a chance for everybody to get to know a little bit more about you on a fun level.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: I do think Shannon, in some psych psychiatric or psych psychoanalytic better, better to say, uh, practices that says a lot about a person too.
Maybe.
Usually they say the, the positive side aspects.
Like there's like, you know, things like, what are the three animals you would just picture in your mind's eye right now?
And then they'll say, oh, that has, you know, why do they pick that, those animals?
Right.
And sometimes it's quite, uh, well revealing or I, and.
Interest way of also going.
Why did you pick those three?
You know, like Beetle, you know,
Shannon Putman: Well, and your three villains were not like your typical like bane where it was a physical in, in, you know, I intimidation.
They were all very mental.
Your villains were used, their intelligence, which kind of says something like, as opposed to the physicality.
Well, again, thank you so much.
I cannot, uh, I, I, I can't express how grateful I am and how wonderful this has been, and, I, like I said, I'll link all the important information, you know, hopefully people will subscribe whatever the youngins and I'm supposed to say on that.
But, uh, again, thank you so much.
Thanks for the amazing work that you're doing, and I can't wait to see what you guys, uh, do next.
Amir Bozorgzadeh: Thank you so much for having me.