WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.900 --> 00:00:02.520 Shannon Putman: Hello everybody. 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:04.890 Welcome back into the pop. 00:00:04.890 --> 00:00:08.340 I could not be more pumped for today. 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:09.810 We have a special treat. 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:14.760 We have Amir from virtually P is the co-founder and CEO. 00:00:15.090 --> 00:00:19.410 And I did not attempt to say his last name because I did not wanna mess it up. 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.890 But he is going to, uh, tell us a little bit about himself. 00:00:22.890 --> 00:00:23.490 Hi Amir. 00:00:24.645 --> 00:00:25.305 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Hi Shannon. 00:00:25.305 --> 00:00:26.715 Really nice to be here. 00:00:26.745 --> 00:00:31.425 Uh, just for all the listeners, it's uh, my last name is, uh, Bo. 00:00:32.775 --> 00:00:40.605 And, uh, I was, I was just chat chatting with Shannon about, uh, all the, all the interesting stories as a child, uh, with what's, every way you can pronounce that name. 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:42.840 Shannon Putman: And I did not risk it. 00:00:42.990 --> 00:00:48.660 Uh, and I, I, I was semi confident I could say it, but I was like, you know what, let's just go ahead and let him take it. 00:00:49.695 --> 00:01:01.155 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, well, you know, uh, now that I'm, I'm actually based in Europe as well, and the languages here are so fragmented in such ways that letters can be pronounced in like three, four different variations. 00:01:01.155 --> 00:01:03.225 So it even gets worse, uh, over here. 00:01:03.225 --> 00:01:03.255 Uh. 00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:05.265 Shannon Putman: I can only imagine. 00:01:05.535 --> 00:01:09.854 Like I said, we were talking and I said, you know, people struggle with put man, so I can't even. 00:01:10.605 --> 00:01:11.715 Can't even begin to imagine. 00:01:11.715 --> 00:01:13.263 But, welcome. 00:01:13.683 --> 00:01:22.803 Would you care to, uh, kind of just let us know a little bit about your journey and what actually even is virtual leap and, and, uh, what are we gonna be excitedly talking about today? 00:01:24.018 --> 00:01:28.338 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yes, uh, my background is as a market researcher. 00:01:28.428 --> 00:01:34.247 Uh, started my career, my hometown in Vancouver, and got into Grammys Publishing. 00:01:34.247 --> 00:01:37.577 And then, uh, around 2015 I participated in my first. 00:01:39.901 --> 00:01:45.511 I used as a platform for getting me into the virtual reality sector. 00:01:45.511 --> 00:01:52.681 And at the exact same time, I started also writing for VentureBeat and TechCrunch on virtual reality, uh, because I had a real no business. 00:01:53.131 --> 00:02:05.581 Um, getting into that, that business necessarily, um, uh, non-technical person, uh, realizing that the applications of this technology are so profound because it's the first, you know, embodied. 00:02:05.971 --> 00:02:07.231 Digital format. 00:02:07.501 --> 00:02:15.308 And, um, I, I became a believer of that because I, found myself in a VR stimulation, treating my own, uh, fear of heights, my vertigo. 00:02:15.668 --> 00:02:17.168 So I became a quick believer. 00:02:17.168 --> 00:02:33.076 But during the writing process for a few years for those publications, I, I really became firmly convinced that the only serious, critical applications for vr, it relates to categories that are connected to education or healthcare, and. 00:02:33.266 --> 00:02:34.736 That's my my point of view. 00:02:34.736 --> 00:02:43.860 The visceral, engagement and the level of data that you collect in those sectors is just, it's, it's, it's profound what can, um, be achieved with vr. 00:02:44.070 --> 00:02:48.330 And so our company virtually is right the intersection of those two categories. 00:02:48.330 --> 00:02:58.698 It's, virtual reality therapeutics, uh, cognitive therapeutics focused on, uh, treating, um, or even screening for cognitive, like learning challenges like a DHD. 00:02:59.023 --> 00:03:12.731 Um, even, even we have, uh, research studies that relate to, um, autism and Asperger's and long covid and, and, traumatic brain injury, uh, really across so many of these areas that were our flagship product, enhanced vr. 00:03:12.731 --> 00:03:13.961 It's kind of like gym for the Mind. 00:03:14.301 --> 00:03:17.571 We have clinical evidence that it can be used as a treatment for these areas. 00:03:17.841 --> 00:03:22.551 And more recently, in November, we released our first diagnostic called Cognitive Clear. 00:03:22.551 --> 00:03:28.371 It's a more of a screening tool for early detection of cognitive illnesses like Alzheimer's disease. 00:03:28.731 --> 00:03:32.121 Um, and that would be something you would do, let's say once a year as a cognitive checkup. 00:03:32.413 --> 00:03:34.213 Shannon Putman: Absolutely fascinating. 00:03:34.213 --> 00:03:48.781 And as somebody who, uh, was in special ed and still considers herself in special ed, um, I think it's a, Groundbreaking use of technology, especially because so many of our evaluation tools are so antiquated. 00:03:48.781 --> 00:03:57.488 You know, if you look at like IQ testing, you know, we just even in more, more recent years have even gotten to a validated nonverbal IQ testing. 00:03:57.488 --> 00:04:01.928 You know, and if you had looked at the, the typical scores of my students, they should just. 00:04:02.188 --> 00:04:06.448 According to the scores, they should be able to not do much more than sit and draw on themselves. 00:04:06.718 --> 00:04:08.608 And that couldn't have been further from the truth. 00:04:08.608 --> 00:04:13.738 So that type of an aspect is, is very interesting to me. 00:04:13.798 --> 00:04:22.018 And, you know, without giving away trade secrets or anything, how is it that you can utilize this technology to screen and, and get, you know, earlier? 00:04:22.048 --> 00:04:24.298 'cause everybody knows early intervention is the key. 00:04:24.298 --> 00:04:27.568 So how do you actually utilize this to achieve that? 00:04:27.784 --> 00:04:33.274 Amir Bozorgzadeh: the starting point has to be on this, on the, resting on this, on the shoulders of everything that has come before it. 00:04:33.559 --> 00:04:34.729 In, in 2D land. 00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:56.188 Uh, so any, any of these, uh, moca tests, M-M-S-E-E, this sort of abbreviations I can say to people who have a, you know, cognitive science background, neurologists, doctors, they'll, they'll all be familiar with these, these tests that have been around neuropsychological assessment tools that have been around, uh, for decades and really haven't, changed even when they went from pen and paper to screen-based pen and paper in my point of view. 00:04:56.488 --> 00:04:58.408 Uh, still they're the same tests. 00:04:58.408 --> 00:05:00.448 They're not, uh, popular whatsoever. 00:05:00.448 --> 00:05:00.598 I. 00:05:02.608 --> 00:05:06.628 Easy to, to execute and, and relatively quick. 00:05:07.393 --> 00:05:12.733 Uh, the value of VR and where the early screening possibilities comes in. 00:05:13.093 --> 00:05:21.433 On the one hand, I would say the data quality is far richer because you have so many different systems all engaged in tandem in a vr. 00:05:22.028 --> 00:05:22.808 Environment. 00:05:22.808 --> 00:05:34.179 So we have a data infrastructure that's, that is collecting gesticulation of the arms and legs, the spinal, orientation and posture, physiological sensors like people dilation, tracking heart rate variability. 00:05:34.419 --> 00:05:43.029 In fact, an algorithm is running in our system that takes those physiological sensors and calculates, uh, cognitive load your focus levels in real time. 00:05:43.514 --> 00:05:47.909 even stress levels can be, I. Basically measured with just one device. 00:05:47.909 --> 00:05:52.619 No special sensors required except for devices that have these, um, built in. 00:05:52.949 --> 00:05:59.302 And, that engagement's one thing, data quality is of course, important, but it's that level of data. 00:05:59.302 --> 00:06:03.097 So about 250,000 data points every two, three minutes they're being captured. 00:06:03.867 --> 00:06:05.967 Um, an order of magnitude more data. 00:06:06.267 --> 00:06:08.697 Uh, and that's one of the aspects for sure. 00:06:08.697 --> 00:06:17.757 But the other, the other side is also VR can include categories like motor control skills and spatial orienta, spatial orientation, spatial audio awareness. 00:06:17.967 --> 00:06:27.567 These are like categories that you would never have be able to, in one scoring system, have all in tandem, uh, unified together to give you a full understanding of that individual. 00:06:27.807 --> 00:06:30.597 And, for example, using myself as a case. 00:06:31.197 --> 00:06:40.587 My wife would make fun of me when we were traveling through some towns here in Europe 'cause she thinks I would like not pay attention and I would be still lost after a week not knowing where I'm going. 00:06:40.857 --> 00:06:52.682 But in fact, when you look at my scores against the average of about 70,000 people, we've kind of, uh, captured, I have, not disability, but a, a deficit that's very clearly marked. 00:06:52.682 --> 00:06:57.542 So there's nuances in the data that only digital format can. 00:06:58.247 --> 00:07:18.748 Shannon Putman: That is unbelievable because I've been, collaborating with a, uh, another neuroscientist and she always talks about the hippocampus and the cau nucleus and the idea of, you know, having this spatial, ability to navigate and, you know, and it relating to Alzheimer's and all of those things. 00:07:18.748 --> 00:07:24.688 So I'm seeing across the board, all of you guys talking about the same things, and I'm like. 00:07:25.188 --> 00:07:31.818 It's, it's legit, you know, like everybody, and it's backed by science and, you know, whether or not people are choosing to believe it. 00:07:31.818 --> 00:07:34.398 That's not, that's a different podcast I know. 00:07:34.398 --> 00:07:36.956 But, it really drives what we do. 00:07:36.956 --> 00:07:41.846 And like you said, seeing that correlation to real life is when. 00:07:42.090 --> 00:07:54.210 People I think start to get it, you know, because VR is like, you know, a lot of people, especially in education, you know, teachers like, oh, I did the, you know, Google Expeditions or, oh, it's another piece of tech I have to learn. 00:07:54.210 --> 00:07:57.300 And so we have to show them. 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:05.475 I. The impact that it can have in order for it to be worth it to learn a new technology and learn a new way of instructing. 00:08:05.955 --> 00:08:13.245 And so for the people that look at something like, you know, with kind of skepticism, like, well, how can one system do all that? 00:08:13.635 --> 00:08:19.365 You know, what do you, what do you say to them that are like, there's no way, uh, you know, one hood can check all these things. 00:08:20.145 --> 00:08:36.678 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, I mean, and, and it's, and it's also the pioneering days of VR where I would say, uh, I'm a critic of a lot of the powers that be like, meta and, and other, other, other companies that, decide to really put all their attention, the majority of their attention on, escapism. 00:08:37.923 --> 00:08:38.463 Shannon Putman: Same. 00:08:38.976 --> 00:08:53.735 Amir Bozorgzadeh: I think if they had put all that energy, into backing universities and researchers and clinical applications, they would find that the, the strongest and most durable mainstream application technology, uh, is exactly these types of educational and healthcare. 00:08:54.515 --> 00:08:58.710 I. Use cases, uh, you know, you have to show the proof. 00:08:58.996 --> 00:09:02.745 took us three years to develop, the, our first application enhanced vr. 00:09:03.165 --> 00:09:10.786 And it took us another two years to get to the point of having five published papers, uh, three of which showed the A DHD, you know, therapeutic, application. 00:09:10.786 --> 00:09:19.366 One for the i intellectual disabilities, another for even, um, improvement of emotional regulation outperforming meditation and and breath work. 00:09:19.631 --> 00:09:23.351 Significantly because it's kind at first. 00:09:23.351 --> 00:09:25.571 But by using these types of 00:09:28.361 --> 00:09:28.751 control. 00:09:31.127 --> 00:09:41.117 Essentially in increasing and improving executive function, which allows a person, let's say, uh, suffering from great anxiety to be able to better police their mental health, the flow of their thoughts. 00:09:41.447 --> 00:09:48.707 And, uh, you gotta just go, Hey, here are the links to peer reviewed studies at really well known, uh, uh, publications. 00:09:48.857 --> 00:10:00.912 Here is the documentations, of the research and design, uh, led by a, you know, multidisciplinary team that includes someone with a, you know, neuroscience background and a, proper, proper. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:07.076 History of, being someone who's mission oriented to show this technology, um, is what it is. 00:10:07.316 --> 00:10:16.804 But unfortunately we have always in new technologies or new hype cycle, sort of frontier tech, like vr, you have a lot of, crazy people at first just trying to make money. 00:10:16.804 --> 00:10:21.904 And they do a lot of bad experiences at first and give people bad first impressions. 00:10:22.114 --> 00:10:25.294 They create cyber sickness when cyber sickness shouldn't have. 00:10:26.412 --> 00:10:28.692 even a side effect if it had been done correctly. 00:10:28.902 --> 00:10:41.292 I mean, like this, the second product we just launched Clear, it's, it's oriented so much more medically than the first one, enhanced VR that, uh, we had to go back and forth, I think seven waves of testing with our hospital partner. 00:10:41.887 --> 00:10:48.187 Um, in order to keep on changing and tweaking it, it's just not a, a, a quick rich sort of thing. 00:10:48.187 --> 00:10:49.447 You can't cut corners. 00:10:49.702 --> 00:11:05.150 and I hope when you've accrued that much after five years, like us, where a lot of our friends in the sector have long since passed away, you know, as, as, uh, what is it, fertilizer for the next generation that hopefully has better luck, but we've survived and have this legacy of. 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:08.720 Proof and data finally to just point to. 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:17.404 And if they don't want to, you know, take a look at a peer reviewed study, then that individual probably just isn't, um, even open to the possibility. 00:11:17.404 --> 00:11:22.534 And that's, that's just not, uh, hopefully there's enough people to allow us to crack the system. 00:11:23.164 --> 00:11:24.819 Um, and when the timing's right. 00:11:25.195 --> 00:11:26.305 Shannon Putman: Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:26.305 --> 00:11:30.415 If, if they're not gonna, like you said, if they're not gonna look at a peer reviewed study. 00:11:30.520 --> 00:11:35.807 On this, then there's nothing you could say or do that's going to, to convince them. 00:11:35.807 --> 00:11:37.607 And that's always been hard for me. 00:11:37.607 --> 00:11:41.597 I always like, 'cause I know I'm right in the fact that this can help students. 00:11:41.597 --> 00:11:46.277 And so it's like, you know, everybody's always been telling me, you gotta focus on the, you know, the believers. 00:11:46.277 --> 00:11:51.437 And I'm like, no, I wanna make those non-believers unbelievers believe, because I know I'm right. 00:11:51.437 --> 00:11:51.947 And. 00:11:53.492 --> 00:11:54.902 An exercise in futility. 00:11:54.902 --> 00:11:57.002 So I've gotten better about that. 00:11:57.112 --> 00:12:12.985 you know, one of the things that, uh, I still hear, and, and especially because, you know, we were talking in early intervention is absolutely the key in any, you know, type of, negative thing, whether that be cancer, Alzheimer's, you know, uh, autism, things like that. 00:12:13.285 --> 00:12:15.565 Uh, so what do you say to the people that are like, wow. 00:12:16.090 --> 00:12:25.600 I know and, and we all know in the industry know why there's a false narrative around the magic 13 year age recommendation and then magically it turned to 10 and, and everything. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.630 So what do you say to people that are like, well, is it safe? 00:12:29.124 --> 00:12:31.052 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah, I think children is one. 00:12:31.052 --> 00:12:40.652 Interesting, uh, just like you mentioned, uh, that that age seems to be pretty ar arbitrary and I know plenty of people who, are using VR for even, uh, children. 00:12:40.652 --> 00:12:54.085 I. younger than 10, although I would think that a below seven is risky business only in the case of, I think the, uh, you know, the ocular development is still, um, in process, I think even to the age of seven. 00:12:54.445 --> 00:13:01.156 Um, uh, it's not my forte necessarily, but I do know we don't wanna come in with something, under a certain age cap. 00:13:01.156 --> 00:13:05.296 And even in that case, I don't think necessarily, uh, that's even true because. 00:13:06.090 --> 00:13:13.410 I'm not gonna name names, but people who have had like, let's say five year olds, uh, using VR and it's seems to be really well received and so on. 00:13:13.650 --> 00:13:23.297 Uh, I just think personally, probably above seven is the, the golden rule that I've seen, uh, more or less, uh, if you're doing it in a clinical study that's controlled. 00:13:23.297 --> 00:13:28.907 That's, that's what I'm also telling, uh, people to, to do that over, uh, over 10 for sure. 00:13:28.987 --> 00:13:29.797 no issues. 00:13:29.797 --> 00:13:30.817 And I think probably ones. 00:13:33.162 --> 00:13:41.339 It's children and really, um, people at, uh, post 60 years of age that I think are sometimes the earliest adopters of vr. 00:13:41.579 --> 00:13:49.096 And, and the, and the latter is funny because people usually always think, oh no, that gener any older generation are absolute Luddites. 00:13:49.249 --> 00:13:54.019 but I, my, my last article of interview was how, how untrue that is. 00:13:54.019 --> 00:14:04.039 And we've done, um, so many, sorts of tests and, uh, research and even workshops with, uh, older adult, uh, institutes and so on. 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.349 And they always, in fact, are. 00:14:06.354 --> 00:14:08.004 Our early, early adopters. 00:14:08.004 --> 00:14:18.504 In fact, that's one of the main applications we're, we're right now deploying with the municipality of, of Lisbon, Portugal, where, uh, which is our headquarters, uh, is to, uh, deploy it across senior living. 00:14:18.564 --> 00:14:18.804 Uh. 00:14:19.946 --> 00:14:21.626 Shannon Putman: And I think that's a, that's a great point. 00:14:21.656 --> 00:14:35.786 Um, I have used VR with students as young as five, but uh, it is always, I like kinda, I like the third grade, so the seven and up is where they can kinda, you know, I feel like it's really kind of the magic zone to get started. 00:14:35.786 --> 00:14:44.787 But, um, with the students, Uh, younger and like, you know, five, it, it's always very selected, um, experiences. 00:14:44.787 --> 00:14:48.264 It's for a short, um, um, a limited amount of time. 00:14:48.264 --> 00:14:49.134 Very regimented. 00:14:49.134 --> 00:14:55.579 And then also my concern was never, um, because I've never seen any medical research about any physical, problems. 00:14:55.579 --> 00:15:16.052 Actually, there's been a couple studies out of, uh, Beijing that show that it improved vision, but, I worry about because of brain development, the, uh, risk of creating false memories, especially because VR is so advanced now and so real that students that young don't have the ability to, you know, really kind of distinguish between those two. 00:15:16.052 --> 00:15:20.222 So I'm always very careful with that age because of those kinds of concerns. 00:15:21.437 --> 00:15:24.497 Amir Bozorgzadeh: That's, so that's really, really, uh, I did not know about that study. 00:15:24.617 --> 00:15:27.347 I'm not really, um, surprised either. 00:15:27.966 --> 00:15:47.571 the educational system in many countries, You know, my upbringing, Canada, I have nothing positive to think about it from the point of view of, again, um, the, the, the potential of individualizing, curriculums and, and lessons to people who are visceral, viscerally oriented versus someone who's much more, you know, bookworm me. 00:15:47.810 --> 00:15:53.306 I love psycho metric kind of, uh, types and stuff just because I love learning about. 00:15:53.551 --> 00:16:08.011 Possibly a little bit more of my, my own shadow and why I make the mistakes I do, or maybe I don't make mistakes, they're just in the wrong environment and I'm not equipped for that particular way where you're put into rows, uh, what is it? 00:16:08.011 --> 00:16:10.321 Depression, style of education, right? 00:16:10.321 --> 00:16:21.841 Like fact creating factory workers and someone who's exhibiting a DH ADHD symptoms is actually because they should be outside walking, walking behind Aristotle in that, in that setting. 00:16:22.211 --> 00:16:28.839 So the VR as a technology, it offers so much accessibility. 00:16:29.154 --> 00:16:34.870 and potential ways to customize the experience for an individual learner. 00:16:35.170 --> 00:16:43.900 Um, and I, I, I suppose if you don't apply it for even certain age groups that, um, we might be concerned about because we just don't understand, uh, where things can go wrong. 00:16:44.110 --> 00:16:56.205 I think that, that those days are numbered and, um, with enough pioneering groups like ourselves, in fact, but others, in different areas, it, those days are, those are ahead of us and hopefully very soon. 00:16:57.250 --> 00:16:58.510 Shannon Putman: Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:58.570 --> 00:17:03.010 And also too, just because like, so like I always use my brother as an example. 00:17:03.040 --> 00:17:09.686 Um, when we went to school, they still, A DHD wasn't even a thing and like really even yet talked about and stuff. 00:17:09.716 --> 00:17:13.196 And, but with him, he never had to take a single note. 00:17:13.681 --> 00:17:18.871 He passed every test and so he didn't present, you know, so like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't a problem. 00:17:18.871 --> 00:17:27.061 But then you look at other things and it's like, oh, like his impulse control or, you know, emotional regulation was, you know, he might still suffer with. 00:17:27.061 --> 00:17:28.861 So if we can. 00:17:29.111 --> 00:17:35.141 teach students how to, um, you know, regulate and, and check in on themselves and things like that. 00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:39.860 you know, because that's what I'm always fighting, you know, explaining a behavior does not excuse it. 00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:49.880 So, you know, you may still have, uh, consequences and things like that, but we've got to start teaching, um, our students, you know, the type of emotional regulation and, and. 00:17:49.905 --> 00:17:53.265 Emotional health that even, you know, that I didn't have. 00:17:53.565 --> 00:17:58.275 'cause they just didn't know, you know, and, and to create emotionally healthy individuals. 00:17:59.232 --> 00:18:01.357 Amir Bozorgzadeh: You know, this is like, uh, connecting to. 00:18:01.563 --> 00:18:06.933 what I'm calling, and I, I don't mean to be a fear monger about it, but I can't, I just can't help myself. 00:18:06.933 --> 00:18:19.773 And maybe it's once you're over a, a certain age as well, uh, you get into your time bubble gets more pronounced, and then my wife will go, oh, you're just a grumpy, you're getting becoming a grumpy old man when you talk to about young, you know, younger generations that way. 00:18:19.773 --> 00:18:24.513 But I think we got algorithms out there that are actively trying to undermine our. 00:18:26.921 --> 00:18:38.141 Generate a DHD and people who don't have it necessarily, or let's say forget it because I know I brought up the word A DHD and some people, uh, don't really see it anymore the way it's a problem. 00:18:38.141 --> 00:18:40.181 They'll go, you know, cherish neurodiversity. 00:18:40.361 --> 00:18:43.616 I, you know, I was diagnosed, um, with, uh, with A DHD, but. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:54.120 And I prefer to see it as something to, to counterbalance in my own pursuit of wholesomeness in my own whatever version of wholesomeness I have. 00:18:54.120 --> 00:19:00.510 Not to compare myself with others, but you know, there is a general map that I believe is objective, uh, to some extent, and. 00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:03.360 Our scoring system and other types of tools out there. 00:19:03.360 --> 00:19:15.330 They, they try to exemplify that and I think they do it, uh, quite well, like the big five personality test and is really well, um, something that I think is, is, um, everyone should be familiar, familiarize themselves with it. 00:19:15.499 --> 00:19:17.359 but a DHD is being created. 00:19:17.749 --> 00:19:19.489 Um, and now we got AI. 00:19:19.684 --> 00:19:28.444 Uh, assistance or whatever you wanna call them, uh, this whole new thing that's popping up where the whole phenomenon, I don't think six months ago people were talking about cognitive offloading. 00:19:28.444 --> 00:19:47.351 Now that's a new term that I will use often because what is gonna happen with this whole new generation that are completely engulfed by algorithms that are undermining their ability to focus and creating higher levels of distractibility, uh, in them by, hijacking their dopamine systems in all the wrong ways. 00:19:47.821 --> 00:19:51.661 And through manipulation in, its, in its clearest definition of the word. 00:19:51.944 --> 00:19:56.444 and at the same time, you have these tools that you're offloading because why should I make the effort? 00:19:56.444 --> 00:20:01.942 And so I don't, I don't see the future so bright from my point of view of, of the younger generations. 00:20:02.403 --> 00:20:03.303 Shannon Putman: couldn't agree more. 00:20:03.303 --> 00:20:15.813 And I'm, and I'm not trying to sound like an old curmudgeon either, but it's like, you know, uh, e even nowadays, like I'm always saying the VR industry thinks that, um, education specifically, but also just like. 00:20:16.338 --> 00:20:22.578 Kids, and I say that like 18 and under are so much more familiar and interested in VR than they are. 00:20:22.878 --> 00:20:31.308 Um, you know, I was in, in talk, just talking to kids in, in the high school, uh, down the road and, and a lot of 'em aren't even like, don't even know about vr. 00:20:31.308 --> 00:20:34.998 And people are like, yeah, but you know, meta had those Vader commercial sent in the other, and I'm like. 00:20:35.293 --> 00:20:36.583 These kids don't watch tv. 00:20:36.583 --> 00:20:38.263 They watch streaming and then TikTok. 00:20:38.353 --> 00:20:51.313 And if, uh, you know, if, if they don't follow a gamer or any type of like, you know, Twitch streamer type thing, the only VR they're getting exposed to then, like you said, because of algorithms, might be the VR fails that we see. 00:20:51.313 --> 00:20:53.113 And, and so then that's their exposure. 00:20:53.113 --> 00:20:59.083 So I'm like, how can you know those of us that see the true scientific. 00:20:59.331 --> 00:21:08.931 Legitimacy to this technology when implemented correctly, how do we reach these people and, and, and keep their attention long enough to convince them to at least give it a try? 00:21:09.442 --> 00:21:09.732 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Yeah. 00:21:11.097 --> 00:21:16.852 It, it's so, it's so strange to be, especially in this year, because with the AI. 00:21:17.307 --> 00:21:18.777 it's all about hype cycles, right? 00:21:18.777 --> 00:21:21.971 And, you know, the, the, the venture, the venture capitalist, It was funny. 00:21:21.971 --> 00:21:28.451 I was on a call with one just today and they had in the background of their call, I don't know why, but they had Darth Vader there. 00:21:28.871 --> 00:21:32.741 Um, and then, and then, um, now I look at your screen and I have Yoda. 00:21:32.891 --> 00:21:35.711 So it was almost like I was on call with Darth Vader on that last one. 00:21:35.891 --> 00:21:39.851 And I really do see VCs as these, you know, they. 00:21:40.071 --> 00:21:41.691 Are funding what works. 00:21:42.021 --> 00:21:46.641 And these algorithms know what works, but at what cost they're not. 00:21:46.671 --> 00:21:52.971 Um, the, the model right now is, uh, quite desperately from their point of view, focused on finding unicorns. 00:21:52.971 --> 00:21:57.051 And if they can't find one, they squeeze you to death until you become one. 00:21:57.621 --> 00:22:04.101 Even science-based companies like ours that cannot, uh, achieve profits until like four or five years because we can't skip the science. 00:22:04.101 --> 00:22:04.491 We can't. 00:22:04.706 --> 00:22:08.096 We can't skip the, the rigor of, of the method. 00:22:08.478 --> 00:22:11.028 and so we had a really hard time getting investment. 00:22:11.028 --> 00:22:38.329 So a lot of these companies that don't have problem getting investment is because they show quick returns, quick, uh, you know, lottery tickets and if those algorithms are the way to it, and even they are, I think they don't think about their own children, uh, and what they're doing with their own investment, but the investors, they don't have the right, if someone was a founder all their lives and they had the, you know, the neuroplasticity with the, with the, with um, the big five personality, test of openness, which is matches up with like artists as well, right. 00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:42.499 Artists and entrepreneurs typically match up with that if they start becoming an investor. 00:22:42.499 --> 00:22:44.809 And after like six months, one year, I swear to. 00:22:48.004 --> 00:22:50.794 Like their neuroplasticity would go to the dark side. 00:22:51.064 --> 00:22:52.354 You know, that's, that's how we are. 00:22:52.354 --> 00:22:54.244 We can mold ourselves to be a villain. 00:22:54.244 --> 00:23:00.214 We just need the right, uh, training environment to become, um, uh, badly minded in how we do it. 00:23:00.214 --> 00:23:01.444 But that's where we are right now. 00:23:01.684 --> 00:23:05.944 The, the whole system investment is gonna be oriented to accelerating. 00:23:06.379 --> 00:23:10.489 Everything that we're talking about, when we're concerned about there is no balance. 00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:14.269 It's can you give us, uh, um, that return? 00:23:14.269 --> 00:23:19.729 And I then I, I just saw a storm trooper, so maybe you are also maybe 10%, uh, evil yourself 00:23:20.719 --> 00:23:27.439 Shannon Putman: Well, so it's funny, so the office was my husband's space, and anybody that's ever, uh, met me knows who Dam Jim is. 00:23:27.439 --> 00:23:31.309 Um, and so he's a big, uh, star Wars fan. 00:23:31.309 --> 00:23:32.719 And I like Star Wars too, don't get me wrong. 00:23:32.719 --> 00:23:40.189 I'm, but he like read, you know, books and everything and so I used to get him and he's really hard to shop for, so I would get him like Star Wars stuff. 00:23:40.219 --> 00:23:42.529 And so, uh, he, he. 00:23:42.909 --> 00:23:45.699 Whether he likes it or not, he had to put it up 'cause I bought it for him. 00:23:45.699 --> 00:23:47.859 So he's at least a smart husband in that respect. 00:23:47.889 --> 00:23:48.249 Um, 00:23:49.219 --> 00:23:50.899 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Okay, so I jumped the, I jumped the gun. 00:23:50.899 --> 00:23:59.663 And by the way, just a quick note, my, um, brother-in-law is, Eva, I think he's even more hardcore, uh, star Wars, uh, than your husband I, because I can't imagine anyone more. 00:23:59.843 --> 00:24:05.183 And I've gotten him throughout the, for that last 10 years, I think maybe 50, uh, star Wars socks. 00:24:05.183 --> 00:24:06.113 Not underwear yet. 00:24:06.113 --> 00:24:07.548 I'm losing, you know, but 00:24:07.753 --> 00:24:08.053 Shannon Putman: Yeah. 00:24:08.381 --> 00:24:10.391 gotta be, gotta be some boxer briefs next. 00:24:10.391 --> 00:24:13.481 But you're right, it's a great default gift. 00:24:13.481 --> 00:24:20.051 You know, you're like, if nothing else, like, and he lives Star Trek too, so I can, I got plenty of, you know, options at least. 00:24:20.081 --> 00:24:28.506 Um, but you know, you're absolutely right in that I always have to tell people that the only guiding principle of Putman XR Consulting is what's best for students. 00:24:28.848 --> 00:24:33.154 and I always, you know, have to say like, yes, of course I wanna make money because I need to pay my bills. 00:24:33.159 --> 00:24:36.514 And I, and, you know, I've got a three-legged beagle, Peggy that I wanna spoil. 00:24:36.724 --> 00:24:40.624 But, you know, I, I, I'm a backpack kind of gal, so I don't need coach purses. 00:24:40.624 --> 00:24:42.814 I mean, unless coach wants to sponsor this podcast. 00:24:43.300 --> 00:24:55.044 but, Like having to get people to understand your true intentions and, um, coming from education, I always feel like those of us that are in it for the right reasons, you know, we can get chewed up and spit out. 00:24:55.044 --> 00:24:56.994 And that's happened to me multiple times. 00:24:57.766 --> 00:25:09.286 so what is it that is makes Virtue leap different and from some of these other things, you know, 'cause like I already know because I, I, I know and I can see it, but what do you think sets you guys apart? 00:25:09.789 --> 00:25:19.419 Amir Bozorgzadeh: You know, the, the, the thing about persisting through periods of time during Covid, I think it was a good solid whole year of me not knowing how to pay salaries month after month, you know, beginning. 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:27.819 I, I, I, by the time we got out of that situation, I was so used to it that I going to bed would be, um, my body would know that it's stressful time. 00:25:28.409 --> 00:25:30.059 It was, it was conditioned to be. 00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:31.289 So it was not fun. 00:25:31.289 --> 00:25:37.169 This is a masochistic, uh, journey I went through and I don't really remember what I was right in the beginning. 00:25:37.169 --> 00:25:47.459 I certainly didn't ever wanna be a, uh, go to sleep knowing I, stretched the truth, or, you know, we got into it because we saw, you know, autism running in our families. 00:25:47.459 --> 00:25:52.649 We saw things that this kind of technology kinda excited us about, but we were also very naive about that. 00:25:53.284 --> 00:25:59.824 But certainly we were, I'm not sure I would've continued as I did, as I have if I knew the whole picture at, at first. 00:25:59.884 --> 00:26:04.904 Um, it's hard for me to, swallow that or say retroactively that, that we had that. 00:26:05.032 --> 00:26:12.682 intention, we just, the house, we were burning the bridge behind us, so we had no other choice but to march forward and stubbornness kept us going. 00:26:12.682 --> 00:26:29.852 So that legacy of developing something with game developers hand in hand with neuroscientists for since 2018 and how many companies do I remember that are not with us anymore, who gave up, or they even pivoted outside out, out of VR because they didn't, you know, just stay on. 00:26:30.872 --> 00:26:35.672 And so staying on path means now we have these publications, we have four more pending publications this year. 00:26:35.852 --> 00:26:38.792 That's just, it's just incredible to even get to that point. 00:26:39.002 --> 00:26:43.562 And if anyone would ask you, who is the market leader of that, of this niche? 00:26:43.592 --> 00:26:45.152 'cause it is a sector of niches. 00:26:45.452 --> 00:26:46.293 Uh, who is the best? 00:26:46.872 --> 00:26:53.892 Technology out there for VR pain management, which is probably the most well adopted worldwide VR application in a medical setting. 00:26:54.135 --> 00:26:55.065 hands down, I think. 00:26:55.545 --> 00:27:06.555 Um, there's plenty of others, but that one is like, I see it pervasively across Europe, Asia, uh, us, FDA, uh, you know, applied, applied, uh, vr, um, as, as the, as the big winner there. 00:27:07.321 --> 00:27:11.521 The legacy of the research, the legacy of the documentation, the legacy of these kind of things. 00:27:11.521 --> 00:27:19.471 It's, it's, no one would say there's a, there's another leader in the space even close to us when it comes to, uh, suffering as much as we have to get to where we are. 00:27:19.831 --> 00:27:28.280 Um, but the leadership of me and my, my co-founder of 15 years Hossein, who's our CTO, I guess we're both in our early forties. 00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:31.380 We've done a lot of, projects and things together. 00:27:31.650 --> 00:27:35.370 I think we just start oriented towards having meaning. 00:27:35.580 --> 00:27:40.050 And so when you have a leadership like that, the last thing we want is a toxic workplace. 00:27:40.050 --> 00:27:41.370 I am the last thing. 00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:45.240 This also helps not get investment often by Silicon Valley. 00:27:45.485 --> 00:27:53.645 Sorts of VCs, it's, I will never jeopardize someone's mental health and my team, uh, in favor of, uh, uh, of accelerating something out of the market. 00:27:53.645 --> 00:27:54.605 Steve, job style? 00:27:54.605 --> 00:27:54.785 No. 00:27:54.785 --> 00:27:54.965 No. 00:27:55.175 --> 00:27:56.795 I'm nothing like that. 00:27:57.095 --> 00:28:02.975 And so I might not be the, the, the best overall, but we cer certainly are in this case, just because we're, we're really stubborn. 00:28:03.338 --> 00:28:04.028 Shannon Putman: I love that. 00:28:04.028 --> 00:28:19.850 And, and that's why I couldn't have been more excited to have you join us today because I know that, we align with that, that same purpose and, um, it is possible to do good and make money, and I'm learning to finally not feel guilty about that, because it's a hard thing, you know? 00:28:19.850 --> 00:28:23.542 And so, I really appreciate that, uh, that that's. 00:28:23.552 --> 00:28:27.302 Where you're coming from and, um, and you can see that in your work. 00:28:27.302 --> 00:28:32.492 You know, like people can say that and you can tell they're kind of full of it, but with, um, with you guys, it absolutely isn't. 00:28:32.492 --> 00:28:35.925 And so I encourage everybody to check it out and see. 00:28:35.925 --> 00:28:39.315 And so if they wanted to check out virtually, what, what should they do? 00:28:39.315 --> 00:28:45.135 I mean, obviously they can contact Pub XR Consulting, and I'm gonna link, you know, your guys' website and everything and, and LinkedIn's. 00:28:45.165 --> 00:28:48.645 Um, but is there anything else that they should check out or that they could do? 00:28:48.805 --> 00:28:52.885 Amir Bozorgzadeh: So our website, we, when we updated it recently, we really got so much, um, there. 00:28:52.885 --> 00:28:59.185 But if anyone is like, let's say a a, my, my biggest thing, my, I'm, I really should be focusing on sales. 00:28:59.185 --> 00:29:00.145 I'm horrible at it. 00:29:00.145 --> 00:29:03.145 So what I do instead is just focus on research collaborators. 00:29:03.370 --> 00:29:05.710 You know, apply for grants together and these kind of things. 00:29:06.010 --> 00:29:09.340 Of course, in the US it's getting tougher, uh, due to all the craziness lately. 00:29:09.610 --> 00:29:12.520 that's a whole nother, uh, podcast to even discuss. 00:29:12.580 --> 00:29:12.820 Uh. 00:29:13.417 --> 00:29:23.011 if someone wants to, uh, potentially look into doing research with us, for example, you know, adding me on LinkedIn, but directly, uh, is something I'm, I'm always open to. 00:29:23.161 --> 00:29:25.411 I'm, I'm, I'm literally addicted to, to LinkedIn. 00:29:25.501 --> 00:29:34.021 Um, I think it's not the worst of all of those things that I, I don't allow myself to use TikTok or, or even Instagram except for work, because I know how it's gonna mess me up. 00:29:34.021 --> 00:29:38.971 But, but, um, uh, add me directly, my, my email as well is Amir at virtually. 00:29:39.881 --> 00:29:40.661 That's easy. 00:29:40.961 --> 00:29:44.831 Um, and, and you can request any specific information that you, that you have. 00:29:44.831 --> 00:29:48.491 We're still small enough that we, we take every email seriously. 00:29:48.791 --> 00:29:49.391 Um. 00:29:52.201 --> 00:29:54.091 Shannon Putman: That is absolutely refreshing. 00:29:54.241 --> 00:29:55.921 So thank you for that. 00:29:55.921 --> 00:29:57.031 I really appreciate it. 00:29:57.031 --> 00:29:58.831 It's been absolutely fantastic. 00:29:58.831 --> 00:30:01.081 It's been so wonderful speaking with you. 00:30:01.081 --> 00:30:12.331 And, um, you know, you're not getting away without the, uh, closing countdown, which coincidentally enough, I picked this before, which is why I thought, I don't know if you believe in all that, which I do, but in, in ways. 00:30:12.331 --> 00:30:18.211 But, uh, I picked this, uh, topic before we started talking, and then our conversation kind of gave it away. 00:30:18.211 --> 00:30:20.671 But, um, I wanted to ask you your. 00:30:20.731 --> 00:30:24.139 Three favorite fictional villains. 00:30:24.529 --> 00:30:26.869 So can't be obviously like Hitler. 00:30:26.929 --> 00:30:36.379 Um, or I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get political and say who currently mine are, but your fictional villains, uh, of Alam can be comic book, movie, whatever. 00:30:36.769 --> 00:30:39.139 And, uh, ho your three be. 00:30:39.847 --> 00:30:44.582 Amir Bozorgzadeh: so Beetlejuice came to mind first just 'cause I even had nightmares of that, that dude. 00:30:45.124 --> 00:30:45.514 yeah. 00:30:45.514 --> 00:30:54.424 And it's just that look and intelligence really embodying the, the devil, but in a, in a way that almost could be someone you could enjoy having a beer with, 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:55.299 Shannon Putman: yes, 00:30:55.744 --> 00:30:55.834 Amir Bozorgzadeh: you 00:30:56.074 --> 00:30:56.614 Shannon Putman: yes. 00:30:57.094 --> 00:30:58.264 And Michael Keaton was the best. 00:30:58.264 --> 00:30:58.744 Batman. 00:30:58.864 --> 00:30:59.914 I don't care what anybody says. 00:31:00.521 --> 00:31:01.781 Amir Bozorgzadeh: it doesn't relate to Michael Keaton. 00:31:01.871 --> 00:31:04.241 Uh, for some reason, for a second there, I thought it did. 00:31:04.451 --> 00:31:06.911 It's more diehard, number one. 00:31:07.121 --> 00:31:09.461 I just can't rem Rickman Alan Rickman. 00:31:09.881 --> 00:31:10.271 Shannon Putman: Okay. 00:31:10.271 --> 00:31:11.771 You don't, you can't remember his name. 00:31:11.771 --> 00:31:12.101 All right. 00:31:12.101 --> 00:31:13.091 I'm gonna have to school you. 00:31:13.091 --> 00:31:13.811 Hans 00:31:14.936 --> 00:31:16.316 Amir Bozorgzadeh: So, but, but the actor is a Alan, 00:31:16.961 --> 00:31:17.561 Shannon Putman: Allen Rickman. 00:31:17.561 --> 00:31:17.921 Yep. 00:31:18.146 --> 00:31:18.446 Amir Bozorgzadeh: right? 00:31:18.476 --> 00:31:18.716 Okay. 00:31:18.716 --> 00:31:18.986 Yeah. 00:31:18.986 --> 00:31:19.646 Hans Han. 00:31:19.646 --> 00:31:21.686 I would've, I, I, the last name I forgot. 00:31:21.806 --> 00:31:22.616 My gosh. 00:31:22.826 --> 00:31:23.546 You are. 00:31:24.026 --> 00:31:28.136 Um, and I'm a dork, but I feel in really good company right 00:31:28.331 --> 00:31:28.871 Shannon Putman: Yeah. 00:31:28.961 --> 00:31:29.471 Oh, movies. 00:31:29.471 --> 00:31:29.561 I 00:31:29.606 --> 00:31:31.136 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Intimidating right here. 00:31:31.916 --> 00:31:33.656 Uh, so Hans is 00:31:33.821 --> 00:31:34.271 Shannon Putman: point. 00:31:34.271 --> 00:31:36.251 Do you know what his brother's name was? 00:31:36.251 --> 00:31:37.301 And die Hard with a vengeance. 00:31:37.751 --> 00:31:40.091 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Well, I know his first name was Simon, so Gru, right? 00:31:40.421 --> 00:31:40.721 Yeah. 00:31:40.931 --> 00:31:41.651 Yes. 00:31:41.801 --> 00:31:42.821 Shannon Putman: Good, good. 00:31:43.156 --> 00:31:45.341 Amir Bozorgzadeh: I, I, I, uh, I won back some 00:31:45.491 --> 00:31:46.061 Shannon Putman: A little bit. 00:31:46.061 --> 00:31:46.391 Yes. 00:31:46.421 --> 00:31:46.841 You redeemed 00:31:47.081 --> 00:31:48.311 Amir Bozorgzadeh: a, just a little bit. 00:31:48.701 --> 00:31:48.971 Uh, 00:31:49.001 --> 00:31:51.881 Shannon Putman: way more if you come up with Simon Cre, but you know That's all right. 00:31:52.691 --> 00:31:53.051 Simon 00:31:53.141 --> 00:31:56.471 Amir Bozorgzadeh: si, so definitely, definitely. 00:31:56.501 --> 00:31:56.951 Shannon Putman: I love 00:31:56.981 --> 00:31:57.611 Amir Bozorgzadeh: yeah. 00:31:57.941 --> 00:31:59.891 Just that moment in him also falling. 00:32:00.011 --> 00:32:00.851 Shannon Putman: Yes, 00:32:00.971 --> 00:32:03.521 Amir Bozorgzadeh: never, it's etched in my immortal soul. 00:32:03.731 --> 00:32:04.961 Shannon Putman: Well, Alan Rickman was amazing. 00:32:04.961 --> 00:32:07.781 Like nobody else could have played that, and that was an amazing performance. 00:32:07.781 --> 00:32:08.873 And no 00:32:08.978 --> 00:32:09.728 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Oh gosh. 00:32:09.728 --> 00:32:09.908 I, 00:32:09.923 --> 00:32:10.223 Shannon Putman: with that. 00:32:10.223 --> 00:32:10.583 Pick. 00:32:10.988 --> 00:32:16.178 Amir Bozorgzadeh: this third one is just, I know I'm gonna, I'm picking, uh, uh, maybe the wrong ones. 00:32:16.568 --> 00:32:17.918 Um, oh gosh. 00:32:17.948 --> 00:32:22.138 I can't even, uh, uh, uh, Tyra and Lannister certainly is coming in my head as well. 00:32:22.753 --> 00:32:24.643 Shannon Putman: that is also a very good one. 00:32:24.688 --> 00:32:25.588 Amir Bozorgzadeh: So many good villains. 00:32:25.588 --> 00:32:27.298 What a good question you're throwing out here. 00:32:27.298 --> 00:32:29.338 I, I actually feel like I'm, I'm enriched by it. 00:32:29.893 --> 00:32:30.373 Shannon Putman: Good. 00:32:30.913 --> 00:32:41.399 The whole goal of the closing countdown is to ask you questions that like nobody else has asked you and stuff, obscure because I wanna, you know, it's a chance for everybody to get to know a little bit more about you on a fun level. 00:32:41.791 --> 00:32:50.824 Amir Bozorgzadeh: I do think Shannon, in some psych psychiatric or psych psychoanalytic better, better to say, uh, practices that says a lot about a person too. 00:32:50.824 --> 00:32:51.034 Maybe. 00:32:51.034 --> 00:32:53.374 Usually they say the, the positive side aspects. 00:32:53.374 --> 00:32:57.889 Like there's like, you know, things like, what are the three animals you would just picture in your mind's eye right now? 00:32:57.889 --> 00:33:01.324 And then they'll say, oh, that has, you know, why do they pick that, those animals? 00:33:01.324 --> 00:33:01.594 Right. 00:33:01.594 --> 00:33:04.384 And sometimes it's quite, uh, well revealing or I, and. 00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:08.089 Interest way of also going. 00:33:08.089 --> 00:33:09.679 Why did you pick those three? 00:33:09.739 --> 00:33:12.979 You know, like Beetle, you know, 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:21.819 Shannon Putman: Well, and your three villains were not like your typical like bane where it was a physical in, in, you know, I intimidation. 00:33:21.819 --> 00:33:23.499 They were all very mental. 00:33:23.724 --> 00:33:30.157 Your villains were used, their intelligence, which kind of says something like, as opposed to the physicality. 00:33:30.534 --> 00:33:32.124 Well, again, thank you so much. 00:33:32.124 --> 00:33:43.833 I cannot, uh, I, I, I can't express how grateful I am and how wonderful this has been, and, I, like I said, I'll link all the important information, you know, hopefully people will subscribe whatever the youngins and I'm supposed to say on that. 00:33:43.833 --> 00:33:45.903 But, uh, again, thank you so much. 00:33:45.903 --> 00:33:51.093 Thanks for the amazing work that you're doing, and I can't wait to see what you guys, uh, do next. 00:33:51.381 --> 00:33:52.701 Amir Bozorgzadeh: Thank you so much for having me.