WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

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Alan: Hey, we're recording

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Mario: Hey, we are.

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All right.

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It's working.

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Alan: Yeah.

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How's things going, right.

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Mario: Good.

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good.

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How about yourself?

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How are you feeling?

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Doing better?

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Alan: Yeah.

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so, yeah, I had the the booster vaccine.

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Was it is it yesterday morning?

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Yeah, about like 10 o'clock or something.

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So it,

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Mario: knocked you out, huh?

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Alan: actually, no, it,
the day before I had it.

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Yeah.

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So that evening so was
it's Thursday today?

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Yeah.

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Tuesday morning I had it, so that
evening I was kind of Dose-y like sleepy

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early and then yesterday I just like
had the temperature and yeah, just so.

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Mario: you, you, you crashed

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Alan: Pretty much.

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Yeah, I was, I felt like I was
operating like 50% all day.

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It was just like, you know, I
was doing stuff, but I'm like,

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I'm just not really all there.

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So

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, 
Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: it's fine.

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So, so, you know, it's better
than the alternative, isn't it?

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It could be worse.

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Mario: Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah.

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I haven't taken the, the booster shot yet.

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Double vaccinated, but
not the, not the booster.

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Alan: Yeah, the, the thing, cuz
Japan's a little bit they're

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a little bit late started.

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I mean they've only just really started
doing their boosters now, but it seems

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really low take up compared to the, the
first vaccine, you know, the, the initial

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two, you know, is very high, like 70
something percent of adults have had

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it, but so far the boosters only like
10, 15% or something, just people that

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just aren't really as lining up for it.

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So either way

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Mario: Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's good.

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That's good.

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Better to,

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, be prepared.

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Alan: so yeah.

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So you've been up to, you've been busy.

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Mario: Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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the fund never ends

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Alan: It really does.

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It's like people say,
oh, you've been busy.

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I'm like, I'm never not busy.

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Mario: I know, right.

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Alan: A little bit of a break
might be nice sometimes, but

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yesterday it is weird cuz I, cuz
I work primarily for us companies.

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My, my main client is us based.

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So yesterday here was a national holiday.

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But kind of doesn't apply.

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Right.

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Mario: yeah,

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Alan: I mean, in theory
I could take the day off.

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It just means I don't get paid for it.

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Right.

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So it's but you know, my son's got
homework to do and he was playing

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online with his friends and stuff.

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So it's like, oh, just normal days.

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Of course that means everyone, you
know, that my friends are all like yeah.

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You know, halfway, you know midweek
break and all the rest I'm like, yeah.

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sounds nice.

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Mario: Must be nice.

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Alan: Yeah.

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Well unfortunately, because this startup
is kind of You know, it, it's very small.

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It's kind of, you know, all
hands on deck doing everything.

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The we're not really even set up
for, I guess, us holidays either.

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So they kind of just pass by as well.

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So I should make more of an effort
to actually just like, you know,

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if, if something's a good excuse
for break, I should take it.

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But you know,

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Mario: yeah, yeah.

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Alan: it's great.

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You have a vacation, so you can do
some, get some work done, right?

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Mario: yeah.

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do you do Rails for your clients

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Alan: yeah.

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Yeah.

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The, my client job is, is all rail stuff.

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I mean, I, I kind of
chose the stack for them.

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And so I'm doing all of
their backend development.

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And it's interesting cuz I do,
you know, my current framework

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of choice is Elix and Phoenix

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Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: and that just really, you
know, that's really clicked for me.

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It's just so.

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It's really cool, especially for
anything that's interactive, you

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know like web based interactive.

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And it is just really clicked for me.

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I love it.

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But obviously Rails have
been doing since forever.

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Literally like, you know, the
weekend the very first version of

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Rails came out, was made public.

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I played with it that weekend and
I've pretty much been doing it.

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So, so I've done a lot of Rails.

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And it's funny because you know,
it was always the The exception,

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you know, the big frameworks at
the time were all Java based.

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You know, PHP kind of then has become the,
I guess the, the default startupy kind

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of stack, especially with smaller younger
folks Rails has now become like the

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accepted old school framework, I guess.

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So, I mean, the, the nice thing about
choosing it over Phoenix and LiveView is

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just that so many more people know it.

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So, you know, I'm not gonna be the
only developer on this client project.

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And at some point, you know, I'll probably
end up having to either hand it overall,

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you know, the, the team will increase and,
you know, hiring a couple of even if at

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first it's, you know, extra freelancers
finding Rails, freelancers is gonna

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be a whole lot easier than finding.

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Phoenix freelancers.

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Right?

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So  it was a very conscious decision
for like this isn't a choice

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for me, it's a choice for them.

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So, you know what, what's
the best thing for them.

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And you know, you cannot
go wrong with Rails.

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It's,

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Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: you know, there's, there's,
there's, you can never fail really.

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Yeah, exactly.

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It's there's there's everything
you ever need, it will do.

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So it was just a, a very sensible decision

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Mario: Yeah,

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Alan: of course that means that I'm living
in Phoenix and Rails world at all times.

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And you know, it it's, I, it's not so
confusing cuz sometimes you just miss

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something outta the other language.

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Right.

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You're like, I could just do this
if I could, but it's not here.

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and vice versa as well.

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You know, there there's certain
things especially within.

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Phoenix.

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So Ecto is the it's not an ORM, but it's
the way you talk to a database, right.

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In Phoenix world and Rails,
you know, I, I assume it's got,

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you know, the similarities with
Laravel and stuff in terms of,

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you know, accessing the databases.

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It's insanely easy.

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I mean, it's, it's so easy that
you, you don't even think about it.

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Right.

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Whereas Ecto is very much more, it's
slightly more, it's closer to SQL.

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So you have to be a lot more savvy with
your database technology whereas Rails,

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you know, you could probably get by with,
with knowing no SQL whatsoever, right.

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With Rails and with active record.

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So occasionally sometimes you
just like, especially if it's just

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something quick and hacky, you're
like, I just need to get that there.

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And Ecto you're like, okay,
I've gotta figure out actually

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how that works at the database.

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whereas Rails, you just like, just.

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Munge it all together and it'll be fine
and it kind of works and it's slow, but

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I didn't need it to be anything more.

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Right.

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So yeah, you kinda get used to
Rails just providing that level

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of convenience, active record,
providing that level of convenience.

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So occasionally I'll miss that,
but it's like, well, it's for the

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best I'm doing it properly now.

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so you're, you're Laravel right.

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Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: and, and Vue for front stuff.

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Right,

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Mario: Yeah.

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Yeah, for my own stuff, it's always
Laravel and, and Vue for work we're

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doing Laravel also, but we're not
using Vue, we're using React, which

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I didn't really have much experience
with React or pretty much any

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experience with React before this job.

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So I've been learning a little bit.

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Alan: Cool.

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Mario: It it's good I liked it.

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But I, I still prefer Vue . View
is so much more simplified.

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It's it?

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You know, it's to the point and, and.

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React has a little more stuff
that you have to wire together

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and, you know, get it...

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Vue is like, it's so much more simpler.

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Alan: Yeah.

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And so my, my only real experience with
React is I've I built a react native

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for, for a client a few years back.

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And so it's kind of the same, right?

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It's just got a little bit more
structure with regards to, you know,

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fitting in mobile views and stuff.

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And actually last week I did
a, a quick react native app

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as well for this for DotPlan.

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I'll mention in a minute.

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And so it's it.

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Yeah, it's very.

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verbose  it feels

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Mario: yeah.

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Yeah,

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Alan: everything has got
boiler plate upon boiler plate.

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And it just feels like, seriously, I
just wanna stick that on the screen.

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feels very yeah.

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Top heavy.

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Whereas yeah.

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Vue is, is much more like lean

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Mario: leaner.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I prefer view and I'm used to it.

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I mean.

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part of it is that I'm, I'm used to
it and, and I mean, I'm still learning

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some areas, but I've worked with it
for a while and I'm more used to it and

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react, the fact that I I'm new to it.

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It's, already with the, limited
experience that I've had with it at, work.

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I can tell that it's a
little more verbose and,

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Alan: a little bit more baggage, right?

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Mario: Yeah, yeah,

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Alan: so have you seen the Alpine JS?

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Mario: Yeah.

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So I've been looking into it, recently.

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we're also using Alpine at work.

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and I but I, I haven't Really?

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had I guess the need to, to work on
it that much, except for actually this

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past week, did a little bit, just little
something with Alpine, cuz it's already

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there and I just, you know, X data

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Alan: Right, right.

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I mean, that's the, it's, it's kind
of, Vue, but even leaner still.

00:08:17.606 --> 00:08:17.766
Right.

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I mean, the is very Vue-esq
but it just even removes any

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kind of baggage whatsoever.

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Right.

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So, so I used it in DotPlan just
because I needed stuff, which you

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know, things like hiding stuff and,
you know, dropdowns and, you know,

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modals and things like that, that
LiveView for all of it's amazing stuff.

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It still requires a trip to the server.

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Right.

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So, you know, the, the idea being
that all of your interactions

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are basically on the server.

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So you just talk  web sockets
for every thing and the server

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handles all of the state.

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Which is fine for anything that,
you know, includes a form or a box

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or you're getting data or anything
that requires data that's perfect.

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Right.

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Because your front end would
probably still have to talk to the

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server anyway, to get something.

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So, you know, there's no big difference,
but stuff like just displaying a

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dropdown menu, you don't wanna do that.

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I mean, you could, but
you wouldn't want to.

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Mario: Yeah.

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Alan: So the, the kind of preferred,
or, you know, suggested method is

00:09:15.459 --> 00:09:18.819
to use Alpine, which was, I mean,
it's perfect for that, right.

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Because it's such a tiny library.

00:09:21.022 --> 00:09:24.082
And then just being able to sprinkle
things that, you know, things that

00:09:24.082 --> 00:09:27.550
need that imediacy just all over
your code it's worked out well.

00:09:27.561 --> 00:09:31.896
But interesting thing is with the
latest version of LiveView, there's

00:09:31.996 --> 00:09:36.480
now a there's an extension to the
the, the LiveView, JavaScript library.

00:09:36.525 --> 00:09:39.905
The thing that does basically all the ding
between, you know, and updating the DOM

00:09:39.905 --> 00:09:44.625
from the server responses, it now actually
you can call JavaScript events directly

00:09:44.855 --> 00:09:47.457
from your within that code, right?

00:09:47.477 --> 00:09:52.337
So you can actually write JavaScript
code within your Phoenix event.

00:09:52.357 --> 00:09:55.617
So you say, okay, if this event is
clicked, then do this JavaScript event

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and then send this to the server and
you can kind of chain things up and

00:10:00.267 --> 00:10:04.080
do those events in your Relic code
anyway, without even needing Alpine.

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So , I've been kind of even removing
Alpine from the stack bit by bit

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was like, oh, when I'm working on
something, I'll just be like, I

00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:11.560
can actually get rid of that too.

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So it it's, but at the same time,
it's, it's just handy when it's there.

00:10:16.473 --> 00:10:16.823
Right.

00:10:17.643 --> 00:10:20.189
So it's kind of interesting
how this is evolving.

00:10:21.139 --> 00:10:21.509
it's funny.

00:10:21.509 --> 00:10:22.229
We're not done yet.

00:10:22.229 --> 00:10:25.710
We haven't finished with this
whole web architecture thing.

00:10:25.710 --> 00:10:27.478
Mario: It's always evolving.

00:10:28.068 --> 00:10:28.358
Yeah.

00:10:28.558 --> 00:10:29.638
I need to get more into it.

00:10:29.654 --> 00:10:31.232
I've been learning a
little bit here and there,

00:10:31.232 --> 00:10:34.312
Alan: when I first started using
it, it was even, you know, it did so

00:10:34.312 --> 00:10:37.552
little, you know, it was pretty much,
you know, there's a data thing you're

00:10:37.552 --> 00:10:39.552
buy into it and things and that's it.

00:10:39.702 --> 00:10:43.072
Whereas now, even that is kind of, it
there's a whole lot more than it used to.

00:10:43.132 --> 00:10:45.359
And it, you could go a
really long way with it.

00:10:45.359 --> 00:10:45.519
Right.

00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:46.579
It's kind of interesting.

00:10:46.579 --> 00:10:49.239
how how's product and development
have you had a chance to do any

00:10:49.897 --> 00:10:51.551
Mario: Well a little bit here and there.

00:10:51.751 --> 00:10:56.175
I haven't had much, chance to work on it
recently, but, I've done some work on it.

00:10:56.301 --> 00:11:01.448
mainly in the area of improving the
way it handles network, interruptions.

00:11:01.448 --> 00:11:05.827
And I think we talked about that,
before, or a little bit some of the

00:11:06.307 --> 00:11:09.587
feedback that I received recently
with, people using the product.

00:11:09.968 --> 00:11:14.582
Has been in that area  because you know,
it directly affects the recording, right.

00:11:14.602 --> 00:11:17.742
Alan: This is, this is the part of
Europe, which kind of stresses me out

00:11:17.742 --> 00:11:22.902
the most  if I was built in it, just cuz
there's so it's so I mean, networks are

00:11:22.902 --> 00:11:24.414
just unreliable at the best of times.

00:11:24.483 --> 00:11:30.493
And the fact that, you know, you've got
different things, been uploaded and events

00:11:30.883 --> 00:11:34.653
requiring things and yeah, it's that
that's the bit which would stress me out.

00:11:34.653 --> 00:11:38.763
So I understand the the wanting
to get that, you know, rock

00:11:38.783 --> 00:11:39.073
Mario: Yeah.

00:11:39.133 --> 00:11:43.853
And, and it's, you know, the devil
is in the details as they say, right.

00:11:43.923 --> 00:11:45.893
It's, it's just all
these different things.

00:11:46.433 --> 00:11:51.633
just as an example, while everything
is working just fine, you can

00:11:51.653 --> 00:11:55.971
see the indicators, you know,
saying recording and let's say one

00:11:56.081 --> 00:11:59.810
participant has problems with their
network and they get disconnected.

00:12:00.880 --> 00:12:05.683
Well, if there's no network, then
the signal that drives the status

00:12:05.683 --> 00:12:07.523
indicator may not come across.

00:12:07.613 --> 00:12:07.963
Right.

00:12:08.063 --> 00:12:13.385
So, the host or the, you know, the other
people, in the session, may still see

00:12:13.615 --> 00:12:17.585
that it says re it's recording because
it never got a chance to get updated.

00:12:17.675 --> 00:12:18.025
right.

00:12:18.295 --> 00:12:20.825
Even though the person is not
there anymore, but maybe the,

00:12:20.825 --> 00:12:23.765
the image still there, because
it, didn't get a chance to clear.

00:12:24.302 --> 00:12:26.642
that's the problem when the
network connection drops

00:12:26.642 --> 00:12:28.496
suddenly, then there's there's

00:12:28.531 --> 00:12:32.271
Alan: You, you don't get a, this,
the network has gone event, right?

00:12:32.551 --> 00:12:35.071
you just, it doesn't have
a chance to tell you.

00:12:35.706 --> 00:12:36.286
Mario: is exactly.

00:12:36.316 --> 00:12:37.526
It's just, it's an error.

00:12:38.165 --> 00:12:42.195
and those things, those little details
and things that are important in the

00:12:42.195 --> 00:12:44.557
application are not able to get updated.

00:12:44.668 --> 00:12:47.388
so then now the user doesn't
know, is it still recording?

00:12:47.388 --> 00:12:49.673
It says it's recording,
but you know, what do I do?

00:12:49.693 --> 00:12:50.433
And blah, blah, blah.

00:12:50.453 --> 00:12:54.601
So it's, it's a little tricky to
get that, to work in a way that

00:12:54.661 --> 00:12:56.681
it, it satisfies everything.

00:12:56.681 --> 00:12:59.423
So, and so that's what
I've been working on and

00:12:59.480 --> 00:12:59.770
yeah.

00:12:59.950 --> 00:13:03.210
So I'm gonna be releasing
those updates pretty soon

00:13:03.890 --> 00:13:04.130
Alan: Excellent.

00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:06.593
Mario: and, hopefully
that's it in that area.

00:13:07.283 --> 00:13:10.530
If, all goes well with that, that's
pretty much the last thing that's

00:13:10.530 --> 00:13:13.319
been keeping me from pricing and
all that so that I can launch.

00:13:13.499 --> 00:13:13.719
So

00:13:14.043 --> 00:13:16.189
Alan: Let's hope we can
get to the next next step.

00:13:16.624 --> 00:13:17.154
Mario: next stage.

00:13:17.154 --> 00:13:18.312
Yeah, for sure.

00:13:18.362 --> 00:13:24.609
Aside from that I did have to I
didn't have to, but I upgraded to

00:13:25.009 --> 00:13:29.099
tailwind CSS three because I was
still running on, believe it or

00:13:29.099 --> 00:13:31.259
not, I was still running on 1.9

00:13:31.299 --> 00:13:31.459
Alan: right.

00:13:32.889 --> 00:13:33.179
yeah,

00:13:33.529 --> 00:13:35.619
Mario: version two came and came and went

00:13:35.739 --> 00:13:35.979
Alan: away.

00:13:35.979 --> 00:13:37.179
You never get a chance to move to.

00:13:37.949 --> 00:13:41.329
Mario: and now it's version
three and I'm like, ah, and I, I

00:13:41.329 --> 00:13:42.849
didn't wanna fall behind too much

00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:47.099
Alan: The, the, the one to two, there was
a few things which I had to update, right.

00:13:47.109 --> 00:13:48.779
Forms especially changed a bit.

00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:54.458
And they co to be honest, my client thinks
still on 1.9 and I really I've just been

00:13:54.458 --> 00:13:57.578
putting it off, just cuz so much other
stuff building up that I'm like, eh

00:13:58.358 --> 00:13:59.288
Mario: yeah, yeah.

00:13:59.548 --> 00:14:00.088
You don't wanna,

00:14:00.518 --> 00:14:03.328
Alan: no, well, especially since
two to three, I mean that API,

00:14:03.428 --> 00:14:07.728
the, the, the standard API seems
pretty, you know, unchanging now.

00:14:07.728 --> 00:14:11.168
I mean, there's extensions coming, but
it's, I don't think they're gonna do a

00:14:11.168 --> 00:14:12.888
drastic change of any existing stuff.

00:14:12.888 --> 00:14:16.288
Whereas say 1.9 to two was
like, oh, your forms are broken.

00:14:17.448 --> 00:14:17.738
Mario: Yeah.

00:14:18.128 --> 00:14:18.418
Yeah,

00:14:18.668 --> 00:14:19.168
Alan: bet that was fun.

00:14:20.318 --> 00:14:20.608
Mario: yeah,

00:14:20.708 --> 00:14:23.998
Alan: but yeah, I mean, it's cool now
they, especially with three and the, the

00:14:23.998 --> 00:14:27.718
JIT and just having a command line thing
and it is just such a smoother experience.

00:14:27.831 --> 00:14:30.270
It's yeah, I I'm liking
the way it's going.

00:14:30.810 --> 00:14:31.230
Adam's

00:14:31.260 --> 00:14:31.550
Mario: yeah.

00:14:32.230 --> 00:14:32.390
Although,

00:14:32.410 --> 00:14:33.830
Alan: is really quite impressive.

00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:35.910
Mario: yeah, it's really, really nice.

00:14:36.060 --> 00:14:36.790
It's really neat.

00:14:37.070 --> 00:14:40.910
Although I'm having a problem with that
a little bit, and I still haven't been

00:14:40.910 --> 00:14:45.093
able to figure out, but I suspect it
has to do with the way my my process

00:14:45.273 --> 00:14:51.042
is set up where if I make any changes,
it doesn't reflect the changes unless

00:14:51.402 --> 00:14:51.722
Alan: I had

00:14:51.762 --> 00:14:55.142
Mario: I save the config file
the tailwind config file.

00:14:55.142 --> 00:14:55.432
Alan: that.

00:14:55.432 --> 00:14:56.072
sounds familiar.

00:14:57.602 --> 00:14:58.942
Mario: So it's weird cuz.

00:14:59.937 --> 00:15:06.037
It, when I save my changes, it builds,
you know, it, it looks like it's building,

00:15:06.262 --> 00:15:06.662
Alan: mm-hmm

00:15:06.732 --> 00:15:10.712
Mario: And it completes successfully,
but the changes are not reflected.

00:15:10.812 --> 00:15:15.352
And so I have to go, even if I
didn't make any changes to the

00:15:15.492 --> 00:15:20.222
config file, the tailwind config
file, I have to go into it, save it.

00:15:21.002 --> 00:15:22.502
And then it builds again.

00:15:22.882 --> 00:15:24.022
And then I see the changes.

00:15:24.277 --> 00:15:24.767
Alan: I've had that.

00:15:25.287 --> 00:15:27.967
I mean, it's fine most of the time,
cuz you're not adding classes that

00:15:27.967 --> 00:15:31.487
you haven't used elsewhere for the
most of the time you, you know, you're

00:15:31.487 --> 00:15:35.767
tweaking spacing or tech sizes and
things and that's it doesn't, you

00:15:35.767 --> 00:15:38.167
don't notice it and then you'll add
a different width thing or something.

00:15:38.167 --> 00:15:39.007
You're like, what the hell?

00:15:39.187 --> 00:15:40.007
Oh yeah, I've gotta go.

00:15:40.007 --> 00:15:41.007
And just poke that.

00:15:41.007 --> 00:15:44.917
And I, I don't know what I did,
but I resolved it  I've had

00:15:44.917 --> 00:15:45.917
that problem before in the past.

00:15:46.562 --> 00:15:46.852
Mario: Okay.

00:15:46.962 --> 00:15:47.252
Yeah.

00:15:47.412 --> 00:15:49.699
I, think it's hopefully
it's as easy as that.

00:15:49.739 --> 00:15:53.793
I, think it's a leftover from
my setup for the build process,

00:15:53.973 --> 00:15:55.713
cuz I, I haven't changed that.

00:15:55.748 --> 00:15:58.508
Alan: I, I, when I started a new
project recently, I didn't have

00:15:58.508 --> 00:15:59.868
the issue when from the beginning.

00:15:59.868 --> 00:16:00.708
So I'm like, okay.

00:16:00.788 --> 00:16:03.348
I inherited something from, because
you know, it's an older project

00:16:03.528 --> 00:16:07.228
and it's gone from like one up,
you know, early  to, to now.

00:16:07.648 --> 00:16:07.938
Yeah.

00:16:07.938 --> 00:16:08.218
Something.

00:16:08.248 --> 00:16:11.745
Well, I had a weird thing with one
of my, the, the, the host I'm using

00:16:11.885 --> 00:16:13.415
for DotPlan is called Gigalixir

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:14.530
Mario: Okay.

00:16:14.685 --> 00:16:15.847
Alan: it's it, it's very cool.

00:16:15.847 --> 00:16:18.177
It's a, it's like Heroku for Elixir.

00:16:18.477 --> 00:16:18.957
Pretty much.

00:16:19.047 --> 00:16:21.867
This is quite a small company
running it and it's really good.

00:16:21.867 --> 00:16:26.396
I've been really happy with it, but
the build process is there's like

00:16:26.406 --> 00:16:30.296
three main ways of getting a binary
that you can deploy in Elixir.

00:16:30.476 --> 00:16:34.183
And there's no, canonical, this is the
way they all have pros and cons and

00:16:34.183 --> 00:16:36.973
depending on what you want to to do with
it, or, you know, whether you want to

00:16:37.113 --> 00:16:39.213
do this or that, they're all very valid.

00:16:39.753 --> 00:16:42.173
So, you know, you kind of, you
pick one and you go with it.

00:16:42.343 --> 00:16:43.704
But the build process for it.

00:16:43.704 --> 00:16:43.984
Yeah.

00:16:44.054 --> 00:16:45.864
It's it, it runs on a.

00:16:46.579 --> 00:16:48.079
Server, not your machine.

00:16:48.166 --> 00:16:51.027
I think , I I've, I do too many, too
many working on too many projects.

00:16:51.027 --> 00:16:55.547
I forget  and so when it was building
it, it was doing it effectively at the

00:16:55.547 --> 00:17:01.347
wrong order, it was kind of building
the CSS and then doing something

00:17:01.377 --> 00:17:03.267
else and effectively deleting it.

00:17:03.267 --> 00:17:06.497
So when it deployed gets deployed,
there was no CSS file there.

00:17:06.557 --> 00:17:11.057
It was, it took me a whole evening
to work out the, and it was

00:17:11.057 --> 00:17:13.897
literally just changing the order
of two things in my build process.

00:17:14.987 --> 00:17:15.207
Mario: Huh.

00:17:15.257 --> 00:17:16.617
Alan: I did my life at that time.

00:17:16.757 --> 00:17:18.777
I'm like, oh yeah, that, that fixes it.

00:17:18.797 --> 00:17:21.517
So, it was one of those, you know, like
there's only one person in the world

00:17:21.537 --> 00:17:26.311
who seemed to be having the same problem
on the Gigalixir, like slack channel

00:17:26.311 --> 00:17:29.171
And they were like, yeah, I'm kinda
like someone else has gotta seen this.

00:17:29.171 --> 00:17:29.611
This is a.

00:17:29.751 --> 00:17:33.911
Pretty straightforward thing, sticking
tailwind on a, you know, Elixir build.

00:17:33.971 --> 00:17:36.791
That's going deployed on
Gigalixir and they had, you know,

00:17:36.791 --> 00:17:37.871
they stated the same problem.

00:17:37.971 --> 00:17:41.111
I'm like, ah, you, my friend,
tell me what the hell to do.

00:17:41.211 --> 00:17:42.751
And of course it was just like silence.

00:17:42.821 --> 00:17:44.391
They asked the question
and they disappeared.

00:17:44.531 --> 00:17:44.751
And

00:17:45.021 --> 00:17:45.311
Mario: Yeah,

00:17:45.811 --> 00:17:46.431
Alan: how so?

00:17:46.711 --> 00:17:49.831
I, I, when I figured out I went
and wrote a long thread there and

00:17:49.831 --> 00:17:53.701
just explain that, I hope they
saw it just because I hate that

00:17:54.307 --> 00:17:58.277
Mario: Yeah, if not somebody else
might run into that problem later

00:17:58.337 --> 00:18:00.055
on and, and that'll be helpful.

00:18:00.605 --> 00:18:00.895
Yeah.

00:18:01.095 --> 00:18:04.295
I, I know I come across as
questions and, and things like

00:18:04.295 --> 00:18:07.125
that, where that nothing, you know,

00:18:07.165 --> 00:18:07.525
Alan: Nothing.

00:18:07.675 --> 00:18:10.045
It's just, there's the question
you're like that, that issue.

00:18:10.425 --> 00:18:11.605
How do you tell me what you saw?

00:18:11.805 --> 00:18:12.285
I think there's

00:18:12.365 --> 00:18:12.785
Mario: no answer.

00:18:13.555 --> 00:18:16.685
Alan: XKCD says something
along those lines as well.

00:18:16.685 --> 00:18:16.965
Right.

00:18:17.615 --> 00:18:17.905
Mario: yeah.

00:18:18.065 --> 00:18:21.005
Alan: but the thing, the thing is as
well, especially with build processes,

00:18:21.065 --> 00:18:24.445
you spend what, what we should do
is really document them really well.

00:18:24.445 --> 00:18:24.757
Right.

00:18:24.783 --> 00:18:26.703
But we never do, because once you've
got them working, you're like,

00:18:26.703 --> 00:18:28.693
oh, it's done, that's fine now.

00:18:28.693 --> 00:18:30.373
And you forget about it and you move on.

00:18:30.373 --> 00:18:32.813
And then in six months time when
you're like, something's changed,

00:18:32.873 --> 00:18:34.653
you're like, what did I know?

00:18:34.973 --> 00:18:36.493
I don't know what I knew at that time.

00:18:37.148 --> 00:18:37.838
Mario: yeah, yeah.

00:18:37.838 --> 00:18:39.718
Cuz you don't work with that.

00:18:40.298 --> 00:18:40.958
All that often.

00:18:41.268 --> 00:18:41.718
It's just

00:18:41.773 --> 00:18:42.063
Alan: Yeah.

00:18:42.063 --> 00:18:42.223
Yeah.

00:18:42.223 --> 00:18:42.863
Once it's set

00:18:42.898 --> 00:18:44.478
Mario: set and forget it for a long time.

00:18:44.493 --> 00:18:44.983
Alan: Exactly.

00:18:45.443 --> 00:18:46.223
So it's interesting.

00:18:46.223 --> 00:18:48.509
I've been using fly.io, which is new.

00:18:48.509 --> 00:18:51.013
I don't know how new it is, but
it's kind of an alternative to

00:18:51.063 --> 00:18:53.813
again, Heroku and the, the whole
platform as a service crowd.

00:18:53.854 --> 00:18:58.523
and it's, it's really interesting
because it's they've just hired the

00:18:58.593 --> 00:19:03.340
creator of Phoenix which is kind of
interesting, cuz it's a really good fit.

00:19:03.700 --> 00:19:06.620
I mean, it's literally a perfect
fit for how LiveView works.

00:19:06.620 --> 00:19:06.900
Right?

00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.380
So as I said, LiveView, every click,
everything you do to interact with the

00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:16.570
page effectively is talks to via a web
socket to server and you get a response,

00:19:16.940 --> 00:19:21.970
which is fine, you know, for most of
the time because your latency is, you

00:19:21.970 --> 00:19:24.050
know, what, you know, ites really quick.

00:19:24.470 --> 00:19:26.550
And what's your biggest
downtime, you know?

00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:27.729
Sorry, downtime.

00:19:27.729 --> 00:19:31.238
What's your biggest round trip is
probably a hundred, 150 milliseconds.

00:19:31.238 --> 00:19:35.727
So I'm like host in stuff in, Oregon
and you know, in Japan there's still,

00:19:36.007 --> 00:19:39.487
I, I can't get it less than like
180 milliseconds, but it's still

00:19:39.667 --> 00:19:41.167
enough that you don't notice it.

00:19:41.167 --> 00:19:44.247
You anything that below 200
milliseconds feels quick enough anyway.

00:19:44.247 --> 00:19:44.447
Right?

00:19:44.977 --> 00:19:48.629
But what they've done to make that even
feel even faster is you can fire up these,

00:19:48.929 --> 00:19:54.429
it basically works on these micro VMs that
you can fire up and in any given region.

00:19:54.569 --> 00:19:58.852
So you can say, I want you know, it
deployed in Tokyo and Oregon and London

00:19:58.952 --> 00:20:00.675
and, you know Frankfurt or something.

00:20:01.505 --> 00:20:06.685
And so you're super close to a
server that can respond to LiveView

00:20:06.795 --> 00:20:09.515
incredibly quickly, but then obviously
you've still got database, right.

00:20:09.515 --> 00:20:11.715
You know, your database might
still be in Oregon, even

00:20:11.715 --> 00:20:13.395
though your server is in Tokyo.

00:20:13.503 --> 00:20:17.195
But you can basically fire up
these database read only, replicas.

00:20:17.372 --> 00:20:21.422
And so you can say, okay, I want my rights
to go to Oregon, but I want, I reads

00:20:21.422 --> 00:20:26.174
to go to, to Tokyo which means you've
got this super fast distributed thing.

00:20:26.354 --> 00:20:30.554
And it sounds complicated, but the
way it's set up and the way LiveView

00:20:30.574 --> 00:20:32.654
works, it's literally just it's.

00:20:33.419 --> 00:20:34.399
Oh, start a new one.

00:20:34.479 --> 00:20:36.919
I want some here and some
there, could you do it please?

00:20:36.939 --> 00:20:41.679
And it just works and it's, it's, like's
this stuff, which, you know, it sounds

00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.679
insanely complicated to get set up.

00:20:43.798 --> 00:20:45.738
But it's like, no, it's,
it's like three commands.

00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:46.538
It's no big deal.

00:20:47.033 --> 00:20:47.323
Mario: Yeah.

00:20:47.593 --> 00:20:47.883
Yeah.

00:20:48.343 --> 00:20:48.563
Wow.

00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:49.996
Alan: Technology has come a long way here.

00:20:50.016 --> 00:20:53.606
So, you know, I remember like one,
my first, you know, app that I

00:20:53.606 --> 00:20:57.446
ever had, I had to put an actual
physical box that I owned in a data

00:20:57.446 --> 00:20:59.046
center in London and maintain it.

00:20:59.306 --> 00:21:01.526
So now I'm like, I just spin
these up all over the world.

00:21:01.556 --> 00:21:02.006
It's fine.

00:21:02.151 --> 00:21:02.441
Mario: yeah.

00:21:02.991 --> 00:21:03.281
yeah,

00:21:03.386 --> 00:21:04.126
Alan: so it's really

00:21:04.271 --> 00:21:05.521
Mario: It's yeah.

00:21:05.591 --> 00:21:07.321
It's it's come a long way for sure.

00:21:07.831 --> 00:21:08.121
Yeah.

00:21:08.121 --> 00:21:08.881
I remember those days.

00:21:09.611 --> 00:21:12.875
where, when you had you, you had
a server, you, you, you named

00:21:12.895 --> 00:21:14.635
it, you had a name, had a label

00:21:15.260 --> 00:21:19.310
Alan: That's also had the downtime in the
middle of that when I had to drive out

00:21:19.310 --> 00:21:22.740
to London, Docklands and replace a hard
drive and like try to, you know, resync

00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:26.630
raid array in the middle of the night and
I'm like, I'm never gonna do this again.

00:21:27.225 --> 00:21:27.445
Mario: no,

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:28.630
Alan: never again.

00:21:29.745 --> 00:21:30.205
Mario: no way

00:21:30.780 --> 00:21:32.110
Alan: Kids dunno how good they've got it.

00:21:32.835 --> 00:21:33.125
Mario: yeah.

00:21:33.435 --> 00:21:33.725
Yeah.

00:21:34.330 --> 00:21:37.086
Alan: so, so yeah,
DotPlan's been moving along.

00:21:37.218 --> 00:21:41.998
So I think I mentioned this, my,
you know, my client that I'm kind of

00:21:41.998 --> 00:21:46.259
handholding and just being really helpful,
getting things like just being lots of

00:21:46.419 --> 00:21:47.379
feedback, just being really helpful.

00:21:47.879 --> 00:21:53.632
So they desperately want to use it mobile
first just because of their environment.

00:21:53.644 --> 00:21:55.473
They they go out on site a lot.

00:21:55.478 --> 00:21:58.608
They, they probably spend, you know,
20% of the time actually at a desk.

00:21:58.788 --> 00:22:02.288
The rest is going out on site to do
things, but they still want to maintain

00:22:02.288 --> 00:22:06.278
this kind of, I mean, that's one of the
reasons they like this is because it

00:22:06.278 --> 00:22:10.358
can maintain the communication or at
least the, the, the cadence of knowing

00:22:10.358 --> 00:22:12.798
what people are doing, even if they're
not in the office the whole time.

00:22:13.698 --> 00:22:15.552
So they really like this idea.

00:22:15.552 --> 00:22:19.249
But they're like, We're not particularly
happy with you just using Chrome.

00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.637
They they've got some older and Android
devices that they have as work phones.

00:22:22.637 --> 00:22:27.001
And they're like that it just people
using it just through a web browser.

00:22:27.671 --> 00:22:30.141
They're not particularly happy with.

00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:32.690
I mean, not that it doesn't work well
through a web browser, it's just, it

00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:34.810
feels like I they're like, I wanna button.

00:22:35.100 --> 00:22:37.000
I'm like, well, you can
install it as a PWA.

00:22:37.020 --> 00:22:39.120
And they're like, how do I explain that?

00:22:39.120 --> 00:22:44.240
And I'm like,  so I'm like, okay, I'll
make just a, literally a, a rapper

00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.680
around the website with, you know,
a little bit of Chrome to kind of

00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.613
make it feel a little bit more solid
and some network checking stuff.

00:22:50.613 --> 00:22:54.883
So if it goes down, you know, it gives
a, a, a message, you know, so saying

00:22:54.883 --> 00:22:58.132
that you need a network connection,
just some kind of Stuff to make it

00:22:58.132 --> 00:23:02.652
feel more cohesive as an app, even
though the app is basically a web view.

00:23:02.727 --> 00:23:04.467
So I was like, okay, I can do that.

00:23:04.467 --> 00:23:05.987
That's that's doable.

00:23:06.042 --> 00:23:09.056
So I, I built this react native
wrapper  I, I can't call it

00:23:09.056 --> 00:23:10.165
an app with a straight face.

00:23:10.231 --> 00:23:13.096
So I built this wrapper and I've
just, I pushed it out to them.

00:23:13.167 --> 00:23:17.315
Couple of days ago as a Google,
as an Android internal test app.

00:23:17.575 --> 00:23:20.075
So I've never I'm I know
nothing about Android at all.

00:23:20.132 --> 00:23:22.342
I've, haven't touched at all.

00:23:22.502 --> 00:23:25.162
I, so this is a kind of,
a bit of a learning curve.

00:23:25.231 --> 00:23:28.717
Just even as far as the play store
works you know, just, you know,

00:23:29.027 --> 00:23:32.757
getting a developer account and
what's required to publish at

00:23:32.757 --> 00:23:34.077
the play store and, and all this.

00:23:34.942 --> 00:23:37.930
So that's been been a learning
curve and so far so good.

00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:39.170
I've now just gotta get it.

00:23:39.277 --> 00:23:40.897
The internal test seems to be going okay.

00:23:40.897 --> 00:23:41.977
They could get installed.

00:23:42.031 --> 00:23:42.841
They're using it.

00:23:42.841 --> 00:23:43.201
It seems.

00:23:43.271 --> 00:23:43.561
Okay.

00:23:43.621 --> 00:23:47.761
So now I've just gotta get it through
to the actual play store now itself.

00:23:47.838 --> 00:23:51.078
And because it's a react native
app, it works the same on iPhone.

00:23:51.095 --> 00:23:54.685
I, no apple are a bit funnier about
rapper applications, but I think

00:23:54.685 --> 00:23:58.455
if it provides a, you know, some
benefit, then it should be okay.

00:23:58.915 --> 00:24:01.175
We will see I'm gonna
try and submit it anyway.

00:24:01.175 --> 00:24:01.695
See what happens.

00:24:02.005 --> 00:24:04.175
I've been through the apple
submission process a few times,

00:24:04.235 --> 00:24:05.638
so I know what to expect there.

00:24:05.638 --> 00:24:10.128
and that well, expect the
unexpected repeat process, right?

00:24:11.383 --> 00:24:14.852
Mario: Yeah, I, don't have a lot
of, experience with mobile apps.

00:24:15.172 --> 00:24:19.180
I back in, I don't know, a few years ago
I tried building something just to learn

00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:20.897
and get a little bit of exposure to that.

00:24:20.961 --> 00:24:25.204
just using one of was, I think it was
phone gap or one of those, you know,

00:24:25.394 --> 00:24:29.714
using JavaScript and, and CSS, but I
think what I was trying to build was

00:24:29.734 --> 00:24:33.219
too ambitious for being first time
trying to build something like that.

00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.339
So I, I learned a little
bit, but I got into a lot of.

00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:39.499
Trouble where I didn't know what to do.

00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:44.241
And eventually I ended up abandoning
the project, but, how do you get the

00:24:44.901 --> 00:24:49.830
app onto their devices without going
through the app store or Google play or

00:24:49.885 --> 00:24:53.265
Alan: it depends on so apple and, Google
are different in this regard, but the

00:24:53.265 --> 00:24:56.558
as far as Android goes, You can create
there's different levels of tests.

00:24:56.558 --> 00:24:58.438
There's an internal test,
there's a public test.

00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:02.100
There's a closed test and then there's
like place, door kind of thing.

00:25:02.170 --> 00:25:03.570
So I've just gone with the internal test.

00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:06.600
You can just put in it says
what's your email accounts.

00:25:06.600 --> 00:25:07.160
And so, okay.

00:25:07.340 --> 00:25:10.480
And then they gave me all their emails
and then I discovered they're not their

00:25:10.790 --> 00:25:13.190
Android, not their Google account emails.

00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:13.350
Right.

00:25:13.350 --> 00:25:14.510
So it's like, go back and sorry.

00:25:14.610 --> 00:25:16.990
Can you tell me what the address
is actually on your phone?

00:25:17.170 --> 00:25:18.590
Not the email address you use.

00:25:19.130 --> 00:25:21.470
So again, I never having done it.

00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:22.990
I just didn't even think about that.

00:25:22.990 --> 00:25:24.750
It's like, oh, you just
send them a link right now.

00:25:24.750 --> 00:25:28.070
It's gotta be, you've gotta
authorize their Google account to

00:25:28.070 --> 00:25:32.230
be able to access this internal test
application to install it and stuff.

00:25:32.262 --> 00:25:33.752
whereas apple, the it's.

00:25:34.277 --> 00:25:38.217
You've either got test flight, which
is kind of a managed system, or you can

00:25:38.277 --> 00:25:42.977
get there U U D I D numbers, which is
effectively serial number for the device.

00:25:43.037 --> 00:25:46.537
And you can register those into your build
and it works on those devices and it's,

00:25:46.537 --> 00:25:48.177
it's like side loading process for that.

00:25:48.477 --> 00:25:51.217
So the Android process seems to
work well when you get the right

00:25:51.387 --> 00:25:53.537
email addresses to give them to it.

00:25:53.997 --> 00:25:54.217
So,

00:25:54.627 --> 00:25:54.917
Mario: yeah,

00:25:54.917 --> 00:25:55.437
Alan: cause I wrote

00:25:55.494 --> 00:25:56.734
Mario: Have to be a, a Gmail

00:25:56.866 --> 00:25:57.596
Alan: it's not Gmail.

00:25:57.836 --> 00:26:00.947
I mean, because if it's a Google
suite workspace, I can't remember what

00:26:00.947 --> 00:26:02.867
Google's stuff is called these days.

00:26:03.047 --> 00:26:07.290
As long as you are using it for Google
accounts then it's a work account thing.

00:26:07.290 --> 00:26:08.450
So yet that's that works.

00:26:08.465 --> 00:26:12.226
Or it can just be whatever you
logging to the phone with it, to, to

00:26:12.346 --> 00:26:13.346
download stuff on the place store.

00:26:13.366 --> 00:26:16.106
So as long as you've got those emails,
you can just put them in and make those

00:26:16.356 --> 00:26:18.289
authorized for the, internal test.

00:26:18.509 --> 00:26:18.729
So.

00:26:18.939 --> 00:26:19.219
Mario: I see.

00:26:19.399 --> 00:26:19.619
Oh,

00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:21.119
Alan: And then I can just push to that.

00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.559
It installs and that's it.

00:26:22.579 --> 00:26:26.479
So it's actually quite a smooth process
when you realize, understand what you're

00:26:26.479 --> 00:26:29.999
doing, what again, being the first
time , I'm like, I dunno what I'm doing.

00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:32.349
Mario: yeah,

00:26:32.629 --> 00:26:36.033
Alan: Well, yeah, it's yeah, I, I
wrote some objectives and stuff back

00:26:36.033 --> 00:26:37.698
in the day for iPhone and things.

00:26:37.758 --> 00:26:41.534
So a lot more, well even that's
changed a lot since I've done that.

00:26:41.592 --> 00:26:43.612
So I'm sure I'll have to go
through a whole new learning

00:26:43.612 --> 00:26:44.732
process for that as well.

00:26:45.452 --> 00:26:45.742
Mario: yeah,

00:26:45.792 --> 00:26:50.150
Alan: but it was interesting just by doing
this, it kind of forced me to go back

00:26:50.370 --> 00:26:55.070
and re-look at all of the pages, how they
work on a mobile because they, everything

00:26:55.070 --> 00:26:59.500
worked, but it was not necessarily as
good as I'd like it at least I found out

00:26:59.500 --> 00:27:00.860
that it wasn't as good as I'd like it.

00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:05.446
So it was good opportunity to like,
just tighten up spacing, font sizes

00:27:05.506 --> 00:27:08.326
you know, this got like a sticky
banner at the top now with the menu.

00:27:08.426 --> 00:27:11.326
So it doesn't, you know, it feels
less like a webpage, more like an app.

00:27:12.306 --> 00:27:17.046
And so just going through just tightening
everything up as far as some to works

00:27:17.046 --> 00:27:18.846
better in the, the mobile version.

00:27:18.951 --> 00:27:19.839
Mario: In mobile view.

00:27:19.884 --> 00:27:20.234
Alan: Right.

00:27:20.394 --> 00:27:21.934
So I'm really happy how that's turned out.

00:27:21.934 --> 00:27:23.814
It feels like a lot, lot better.

00:27:23.866 --> 00:27:27.678
It was just a good excuse to go through
and reassess the whole  design base.

00:27:27.678 --> 00:27:29.078
Like, so

00:27:29.103 --> 00:27:29.393
Mario: yeah.

00:27:30.103 --> 00:27:30.393
Nice.

00:27:30.703 --> 00:27:30.993
Nice.

00:27:31.578 --> 00:27:35.074
Alan: Also take out a lot of
duplicated tailwind classes, which

00:27:35.609 --> 00:27:36.149
Mario: oh yeah.

00:27:36.464 --> 00:27:39.474
Alan: because I was looking at I'm like,
oh, actually I don't need that anymore.

00:27:39.522 --> 00:27:43.262
And also ended up refactoring a bunch of
views again, because it's like, hold on.

00:27:43.262 --> 00:27:45.182
This is the same view
just with different data.

00:27:45.402 --> 00:27:49.422
So it was a good opportunity to, to
just tidy things up a let do a bit of

00:27:49.422 --> 00:27:53.187
refactor and things without breaking
anything and that that's stuff, which

00:27:53.187 --> 00:27:56.647
you never make time for really, you're
always pushing ahead with new things.

00:27:56.687 --> 00:27:57.937
Whereas this was a have to.

00:27:58.592 --> 00:27:59.892
You know, look at the same thing.

00:28:00.562 --> 00:28:03.212
Re-look at the same thing you've
already written to just tighten it up.

00:28:03.272 --> 00:28:05.132
So it was a good excuse to do that.

00:28:05.272 --> 00:28:06.532
So I'm happy with how it went.

00:28:06.682 --> 00:28:09.434
It's we'll we'll see if I get,
get the thing on the store.

00:28:09.441 --> 00:28:12.413
It's yeah, that's the next thing
just waiting for Google to, to

00:28:12.603 --> 00:28:13.493
give the, go ahead for that.

00:28:14.628 --> 00:28:14.918
Mario: Nice.

00:28:15.308 --> 00:28:15.598
Nice.

00:28:16.508 --> 00:28:16.798
Yeah.

00:28:17.038 --> 00:28:18.461
I actually had to do a little bit of that.

00:28:18.481 --> 00:28:21.793
myself working on, on this, you
know, network related stuff.

00:28:21.793 --> 00:28:26.093
came across a bunch of code that
could be refactored and improved.

00:28:26.193 --> 00:28:30.563
And ended up removing a lot of code,
which is always great, you know, just

00:28:30.808 --> 00:28:31.328
Alan: the best feeling

00:28:31.813 --> 00:28:35.593
Mario: seeing all the, all these
opportunities to make it more compact

00:28:35.728 --> 00:28:35.948
Alan: yep.

00:28:36.613 --> 00:28:39.313
Mario: and just deleting a bunch
of code that, well, you know,

00:28:39.393 --> 00:28:40.873
I can do it this other way.

00:28:40.903 --> 00:28:41.513
It's better.

00:28:41.653 --> 00:28:44.923
Or, you know, unified certain
things where I had, you know,

00:28:44.948 --> 00:28:45.738
Alan: How's the best feeling.

00:28:45.798 --> 00:28:46.298
It really is.

00:28:46.388 --> 00:28:50.972
Mario: a little bit of duplication because
of the way that I approach It first of

00:28:50.972 --> 00:28:56.513
course duplication is, the one thing you
you're trying to minimize or eliminate as

00:28:56.803 --> 00:28:59.434
Alan: I mean, I, I'm kind of
very liberal with the duplication

00:28:59.434 --> 00:29:00.394
when I'm writing stuff.

00:29:00.514 --> 00:29:04.088
I mean, I kind of try to leave
it for this revisiting thing.

00:29:04.100 --> 00:29:07.604
You know, what some of the things
well, I guess that's one of the things

00:29:07.604 --> 00:29:09.284
I've learned over time is that, yeah.

00:29:09.284 --> 00:29:11.124
You're never gonna get
your abstraction right.

00:29:11.124 --> 00:29:11.764
In the first place.

00:29:11.764 --> 00:29:12.004
Right.

00:29:12.045 --> 00:29:16.328
Unless you, you know, sit down
for, you know,  we and design

00:29:16.328 --> 00:29:18.528
everything, which, I mean, even
then you're probably gonna forget

00:29:18.528 --> 00:29:19.648
something it's never gonna be right.

00:29:19.648 --> 00:29:21.408
You're gonna end up changing something.

00:29:21.468 --> 00:29:25.448
So I'm very liberal with just
cut and pasting code and, you

00:29:25.448 --> 00:29:26.638
know, tweaking it to work.

00:29:26.778 --> 00:29:29.478
And then when everything is
settled, I'll go back and

00:29:29.549 --> 00:29:31.371
reassess it and kind of tidy up.

00:29:31.511 --> 00:29:32.371
So this was yeah.

00:29:32.371 --> 00:29:33.451
An opportunity to do that.

00:29:33.451 --> 00:29:33.691
Right.

00:29:34.156 --> 00:29:34.446
Mario: Yeah.

00:29:34.636 --> 00:29:34.926
Yeah.

00:29:34.966 --> 00:29:36.006
I tend to do that too.

00:29:36.015 --> 00:29:39.115
Alan: I'd rather be explicit
in, I'm doing this here.

00:29:39.215 --> 00:29:39.435
Now.

00:29:39.435 --> 00:29:42.235
It might be the same as I'm doing
over there, but I'm doing this here

00:29:42.235 --> 00:29:45.395
now, and I know how it's working
and I know exactly what I'm working

00:29:45.455 --> 00:29:49.435
on as opposed to some, you know,
multiple abstraction abstractions

00:29:49.435 --> 00:29:51.396
somewhere else that just yeah.

00:29:51.426 --> 00:29:51.716
It's

00:29:51.773 --> 00:29:56.275
Mario: Oh, I wanted to ask you, what
kind of reception did you have, with

00:29:56.275 --> 00:29:58.105
the wrapper, that you created once you

00:29:58.320 --> 00:30:00.340
Alan: So they're using it now.

00:30:00.513 --> 00:30:03.733
We I'm waiting to hear back,
so I literally, they, they

00:30:03.733 --> 00:30:04.613
installed it yesterday.

00:30:05.033 --> 00:30:08.205
So I'm waiting to hear  no
complaints so far, so

00:30:08.520 --> 00:30:08.810
Mario: Okay.

00:30:09.905 --> 00:30:10.525
Alan: we shall see.

00:30:11.065 --> 00:30:12.965
So, oh, so the other thing, get it.

00:30:12.965 --> 00:30:15.892
I think I mentioned last time I was
looking at this Thing for making

00:30:16.082 --> 00:30:17.791
like documentation called Tango.

00:30:17.911 --> 00:30:22.480
So I, I, I spent an hour with that
and rattled out like 20 help pages.

00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:23.200
So,

00:30:23.299 --> 00:30:26.973
Yeah, I'm telling you, it's pretty
nice for just getting something going

00:30:26.973 --> 00:30:31.263
and because you can, you know, you
can effectively link to any help page.

00:30:31.483 --> 00:30:34.452
So I'm just making like a
notion page of how to do things.

00:30:34.692 --> 00:30:35.812
I can order them.

00:30:35.932 --> 00:30:39.532
I can make that public, like
link it to it from my site.

00:30:39.832 --> 00:30:42.972
And then just use that as like
a, you know, this is how to do

00:30:43.082 --> 00:30:44.492
this and just linking to them.

00:30:44.572 --> 00:30:45.892
I mean, most of them are like three steps.

00:30:45.892 --> 00:30:46.132
Right.

00:30:46.132 --> 00:30:49.012
You know, go to this page,
click on this and accept that.

00:30:49.432 --> 00:30:53.701
But, so the amount of times
that we're getting requests

00:30:53.701 --> 00:30:54.741
for like, how do I do this?

00:30:54.771 --> 00:30:57.621
Well, it's easy, but you know,

00:30:57.976 --> 00:30:58.266
. 
Mario: Yeah.

00:30:58.416 --> 00:30:58.706
Yeah.

00:30:59.536 --> 00:30:59.826
Nice.

00:31:00.091 --> 00:31:00.381
Alan: Yeah.

00:31:00.441 --> 00:31:03.611
So yeah, I rattled through those and
yeah, it's just really nice for that.

00:31:03.629 --> 00:31:04.205
Quite impressed.

00:31:04.745 --> 00:31:04.965
So

00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:09.515
Mario: Is that connected to any
kind of, like a CRM or help desk

00:31:10.100 --> 00:31:13.665
Alan: N it's not I mean, I could do,
but this is purely I say it's a, like

00:31:13.705 --> 00:31:17.505
a Chrome plugin that you just browse
to the page, you do the thing click

00:31:17.505 --> 00:31:19.385
done, and then it'll set them out.

00:31:19.385 --> 00:31:22.685
You can delete them, you can replace
images, you can just add description.

00:31:22.730 --> 00:31:25.350
And then just say, it's done, you
get a link, you can share it to it.

00:31:25.350 --> 00:31:27.911
So it's actually it's one of those
things that you're like, it's a

00:31:27.911 --> 00:31:29.271
perfect kind of indie project.

00:31:29.471 --> 00:31:30.591
I don't know who's behind it.

00:31:30.711 --> 00:31:34.478
I don't know how big the team is or
anything, but it, it could be an indie

00:31:34.478 --> 00:31:37.838
project just because it's it's it does
one thing and it does it quite well.

00:31:37.900 --> 00:31:40.560
So it's, yeah, I kind, kind
of impressed with that.

00:31:41.415 --> 00:31:41.705
Mario: Cool.

00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:46.470
Alan: so yeah, I, I could link it
to say some kind of help desk thing,

00:31:46.570 --> 00:31:50.190
but for the moment I'm like the
simplest thing, just make those make

00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:53.070
a page with them all listed and,
you know, they can use their eyes.

00:31:54.045 --> 00:31:54.335
Mario: Yeah.

00:31:54.335 --> 00:31:54.915
Alan: Command F.

00:31:54.930 --> 00:31:56.190
If they really need to find something.

00:31:58.095 --> 00:31:58.385
Mario: nice.

00:31:59.455 --> 00:31:59.745
Cool.

00:31:59.895 --> 00:32:02.195
Alan: trying to stop myself
from building anything else

00:32:03.635 --> 00:32:04.365
Mario: Yeah, right.

00:32:05.475 --> 00:32:05.765
yeah.

00:32:05.765 --> 00:32:06.885
You don't need more projects

00:32:07.155 --> 00:32:10.735
Alan: no, I really don't need
more sleep, more projects.

00:32:11.195 --> 00:32:11.545
Mario: right.

00:32:13.125 --> 00:32:14.532
how are your sign ups going?

00:32:14.668 --> 00:32:16.348
Alan: I need to, that's my next thing.

00:32:16.348 --> 00:32:20.418
So once this is get this app done,
they're out again, because this

00:32:20.418 --> 00:32:21.578
client's kind of waiting on this.

00:32:21.629 --> 00:32:25.594
It's, it's back to the, trying
to, trying to get people on board.

00:32:25.610 --> 00:32:29.830
So I did a, a few weeks ago I did
some tweaks to the landing page

00:32:29.830 --> 00:32:33.550
and I kind of got a better idea of
now, of how I want to redesign it.

00:32:33.610 --> 00:32:33.830
So

00:32:33.913 --> 00:32:34.203
Mario: Okay.

00:32:35.333 --> 00:32:37.833
Alan: that's, a thing for
when this is done, just

00:32:37.983 --> 00:32:39.303
Mario: Yeah, yeah,

00:32:39.783 --> 00:32:42.793
Alan: otherwise it's too much
to try and do it once, right?

00:32:43.643 --> 00:32:44.533
Mario: yeah, yeah,

00:32:45.738 --> 00:32:49.038
Alan: As you said, try, try and
get into, as I said, you know, you

00:32:49.038 --> 00:32:51.718
said a while back, you know, you'd
like to get into a kind of cadence

00:32:51.858 --> 00:32:55.278
of being able to do development and
then marketing development marketing.

00:32:55.428 --> 00:32:56.758
It's a, it's a nice goal.

00:32:56.868 --> 00:32:59.759
Something I'd like to try and do,
just because then at least You can,

00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:03.279
I mean, this, this kind of context
switching is just this killer.

00:33:03.639 --> 00:33:07.799
I mean, I I'm sure you find it
too, just switching between work

00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.279
projects and personal projects.

00:33:09.379 --> 00:33:12.759
And, you know, even when your
personal project is actually

00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:14.159
like 10 projects in one, right.

00:33:14.479 --> 00:33:15.759
there's not just one thing.

00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.159
There's the, there's the whole, you know,
the technicalities of how it's working.

00:33:19.188 --> 00:33:21.311
And then there's, you know, the
marketing side of it there's even

00:33:21.331 --> 00:33:22.780
the support side, things like that.

00:33:22.791 --> 00:33:26.341
Being able to just pick one and at
least your only contact switching

00:33:26.341 --> 00:33:30.702
between work you know, paid work
and this project then, you know, one

00:33:30.702 --> 00:33:32.702
thing for at least in a week or two.

00:33:33.242 --> 00:33:33.462
And,

00:33:33.507 --> 00:33:33.797
Mario: yeah.

00:33:35.682 --> 00:33:38.732
Alan: the more I thought about it at the
moment, like that would be a, an ideal

00:33:38.732 --> 00:33:43.412
really just cuz otherwise it's, it really
does weigh you out just this constant.

00:33:43.482 --> 00:33:45.802
Like what do I need to think about today?

00:33:46.002 --> 00:33:46.372
I can't do it

00:33:46.432 --> 00:33:47.652
Mario: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:33:47.842 --> 00:33:48.972
It's, it's not easy.

00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:53.393
it's harder too, when it comes to the
personal projects, because you can only

00:33:53.393 --> 00:33:57.966
work on your side projects, a small amount
of time that you, that you have available

00:33:58.146 --> 00:34:01.416
and you never know how long that's gonna
be, how much time you're gonna have.

00:34:01.556 --> 00:34:05.379
So you can set a goal to work
on product development this

00:34:05.379 --> 00:34:07.153
week and do marketing next week.

00:34:07.493 --> 00:34:11.669
But if you don't get enough time
to work on the project and reach

00:34:11.789 --> 00:34:16.376
the goal that you had for the week
product development, then I've, I've

00:34:16.376 --> 00:34:17.656
been struggling with that because.

00:34:17.671 --> 00:34:21.024
At the end of the week, I'm supposed
to, the following week switch over to

00:34:21.169 --> 00:34:21.519
Alan: right.

00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.119
And you're like, but I
can't leave this here.

00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:23.319
Yeah,

00:34:23.319 --> 00:34:23.599
exactly.

00:34:23.689 --> 00:34:24.039
Right,

00:34:24.164 --> 00:34:28.252
Mario: I'm half I'm in the middle of all
this stuff you know, that I'm coding and

00:34:28.252 --> 00:34:32.890
you know how it is when if you leave that,
then coming back to it, it just takes

00:34:32.890 --> 00:34:35.441
forever to restart that thought process.

00:34:35.531 --> 00:34:36.241
Right, So,

00:34:36.276 --> 00:34:39.246
Alan: Well, again, the context switch is
even bigger then just because you've gotta

00:34:39.306 --> 00:34:43.138
reload your brain with all this stuff that
you knew at that point in time before.

00:34:43.138 --> 00:34:43.458
Right.

00:34:44.023 --> 00:34:44.293
Mario: Yeah.

00:34:44.293 --> 00:34:48.212
so this whole thing about, getting
into a cadence of, working back

00:34:48.212 --> 00:34:52.165
and forth hasn't really worked
out for me, at least not, not yet.

00:34:52.245 --> 00:34:55.061
I ha I still haven't figured it
out cuz it's a, it's a nice goal.

00:34:55.241 --> 00:34:58.241
but I think that might work better once.

00:34:58.241 --> 00:34:59.941
That's the only thing you're focusing on.

00:35:00.051 --> 00:35:03.761
Like, you know, once you're
doing this full time, then

00:35:03.761 --> 00:35:05.281
that's, that's your main thing.

00:35:05.341 --> 00:35:08.041
So you can divvy it up and, and kind of,

00:35:08.914 --> 00:35:11.614
Alan: trying to give any kind
of estimate in things right now.

00:35:11.614 --> 00:35:15.894
He's just, I don't know, because I can't
guarantee, I, I can't, I don't know how

00:35:15.894 --> 00:35:17.934
much time I'm gonna have on a thing today

00:35:18.539 --> 00:35:19.029
Mario: exactly,

00:35:19.374 --> 00:35:19.494
Alan: tomorrow.

00:35:19.664 --> 00:35:22.284
And you know, I, family stuff
is always there as well.

00:35:22.284 --> 00:35:25.994
You, so it's like, you think, okay,
I'm gonna spend, you know, Saturday

00:35:26.044 --> 00:35:29.554
doing this and then actually we can't
because it's a thing and that's fine,

00:35:29.694 --> 00:35:32.154
but it, it just means estimates.

00:35:32.154 --> 00:35:34.274
It like completely wild.

00:35:34.654 --> 00:35:35.634
You've got no idea.

00:35:36.714 --> 00:35:37.004
Mario: Yeah.

00:35:37.034 --> 00:35:37.514
Alan: it is tough.

00:35:38.464 --> 00:35:38.737
Mario: Yeah,

00:35:38.737 --> 00:35:39.631
Alan: You know, gotta have a goal

00:35:39.711 --> 00:35:40.001
Mario: yeah.

00:35:40.911 --> 00:35:41.201
yeah.

00:35:42.741 --> 00:35:42.961
So

00:35:42.973 --> 00:35:46.187
Alan: So hopefully, yeah, once you
can finish this this kind of yeah.

00:35:46.187 --> 00:35:48.787
Network stuff, you can at least
put that to bed for the moment.

00:35:49.197 --> 00:35:52.465
And and again, there's, this's
everything else works so well.

00:35:52.625 --> 00:35:55.585
I really hope you can get to the
stage where, you know, you can start,

00:35:55.925 --> 00:35:58.005
you know, Charging people for it.

00:35:58.385 --> 00:35:58.675
Mario: yeah.

00:35:58.895 --> 00:36:01.165
Alan: cause I think you're gonna
be fine getting customer, you know,

00:36:01.165 --> 00:36:06.593
like you've got, as I've said before,
you've got a, such a clear target here.

00:36:06.649 --> 00:36:09.869
You know, there's no ambiguity
as to who you can use this app.

00:36:09.936 --> 00:36:13.990
Which, you know, I fail with a little
bit with mine, you know, it's more

00:36:13.990 --> 00:36:17.389
difficult with mine because there
isn't a clear single target market.

00:36:17.443 --> 00:36:21.543
So yeah, I think once you've, once
you open this up, you know, just you

00:36:21.543 --> 00:36:26.425
can laser focus on particular people
and targets and just go for it.

00:36:26.565 --> 00:36:27.945
So excited for you.

00:36:28.535 --> 00:36:29.345
just gotta get there.

00:36:30.165 --> 00:36:31.015
Mario: Yeah, I know.

00:36:31.615 --> 00:36:31.895
I know.

00:36:32.355 --> 00:36:35.615
And now I've been, oh, that's that's
one thing I wanted to share with you.

00:36:36.085 --> 00:36:40.855
I've been reconsidering the whole Paddle
thing and I, I may revisit that and

00:36:40.887 --> 00:36:43.243
see if I, I go with them, It's just,

00:36:43.723 --> 00:36:45.083
Alan: I, I understand where you come from.

00:36:45.863 --> 00:36:46.153
Mario: yeah.

00:36:46.263 --> 00:36:46.553
It's,

00:36:46.823 --> 00:36:47.643
Alan: pro or four Paddle.

00:36:48.103 --> 00:36:48.643
You, you mean.

00:36:49.113 --> 00:36:50.120
Mario: a, pro Paddle I

00:36:50.330 --> 00:36:50.680
Alan: Pro.

00:36:50.680 --> 00:36:50.850
Okay.

00:36:51.015 --> 00:36:51.290
Mario: Yeah.

00:36:51.330 --> 00:36:51.610
A Pro.

00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:52.030
Paddle.

00:36:52.105 --> 00:36:52.395
Alan: Yeah.

00:36:52.415 --> 00:36:55.075
Did you see, they kind of did
a bit of a relaunch this week.

00:36:55.435 --> 00:36:57.955
Mario: I I, yeah, I heard I haven't,
I haven't gone to their site,

00:36:57.975 --> 00:37:00.475
but I, I read something about it.

00:37:00.545 --> 00:37:00.835
yeah.

00:37:01.415 --> 00:37:04.035
Alan: And I think that they're gonna
make all our pricing more transparent.

00:37:04.295 --> 00:37:06.850
And I think that was one thing which
really seemed to put a lot of people

00:37:06.910 --> 00:37:11.130
off is just fact that the, this kind of
opaque like, well, when you start using

00:37:11.130 --> 00:37:12.880
those, you'll find out how much we take.

00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:13.720
And it's like, what?

00:37:13.850 --> 00:37:14.140
, 
Mario: yeah,

00:37:14.900 --> 00:37:17.000
Alan: so they're gonna be a lot
more upfront with everything.

00:37:17.300 --> 00:37:20.387
And so I really like this,
this just idea of them being.

00:37:21.082 --> 00:37:25.382
Taking care of the, the tax
and the filing and everything.

00:37:25.402 --> 00:37:29.502
And it's just for, for you just said
how much stuff you gotta think of.

00:37:29.602 --> 00:37:32.302
If there's one thing you
can remove, I'll take it.

00:37:32.322 --> 00:37:35.182
And if that one thing is
tax, I'll definitely take it.

00:37:35.182 --> 00:37:35.462
Right.

00:37:36.252 --> 00:37:39.462
, it's so stressful enough as it is, but
them just taking care of that whole side

00:37:39.462 --> 00:37:43.224
of things is makes it definitely me worth
it to me again, especially when you know,

00:37:43.224 --> 00:37:47.304
I'm not in a, it's not like I'm in The
US selling to US customers and that's it.

00:37:47.404 --> 00:37:52.944
And you it's no, I've, I'm already
in a, at a disadvantage just from

00:37:52.944 --> 00:37:55.411
the first sale I make because,
don't know where it's gonna be.

00:37:55.771 --> 00:37:59.771
I mean, my accountant is already like,
I I've had meeting with my business

00:37:59.771 --> 00:38:03.321
accountant the other day and trying
to explain this concept to him.

00:38:03.321 --> 00:38:05.011
He's like, so you have
a customer in Japan.

00:38:05.101 --> 00:38:05.591
Yes, I do.

00:38:06.101 --> 00:38:07.921
So you're collecting sales tax.

00:38:08.591 --> 00:38:11.056
Well, No Paddle are.

00:38:11.316 --> 00:38:12.336
And he is like, who's Paddle?

00:38:12.526 --> 00:38:13.896
Well, they're an Irish company.

00:38:15.876 --> 00:38:17.176
and it's like, say what?

00:38:18.556 --> 00:38:22.296
So they, they take care of that,
but where does the sales sites go?

00:38:22.296 --> 00:38:24.496
It goes to them and then
they pay it to Japan.

00:38:24.686 --> 00:38:25.536
Well, yeah.

00:38:26.076 --> 00:38:26.296
so

00:38:26.536 --> 00:38:26.826
Mario: yeah.

00:38:26.846 --> 00:38:27.776
Alan: it's trust me.

00:38:27.776 --> 00:38:28.336
It's okay.

00:38:30.476 --> 00:38:30.766
Yeah.

00:38:30.766 --> 00:38:32.766
So I mean, that, that's a disadvantage.

00:38:32.766 --> 00:38:35.566
Well, because, you know, in terms
of, if I register for sales tax,

00:38:35.636 --> 00:38:39.926
then things, my company buys,
obviously I can claim sales tax back.

00:38:40.176 --> 00:38:43.545
But you know, I'm not
spending that much money  so

00:38:44.365 --> 00:38:48.645
Mario: I wish it, it seems like I may be
wrong about this, but it, it seems to me

00:38:48.645 --> 00:38:54.178
that there aren't that many professionals
in that area, that understand the modern

00:38:54.968 --> 00:38:56.978
ways of, of doing business online.

00:38:56.978 --> 00:39:01.084
Like, you know, I'm talking about, you
know, tax professionals, and you know,

00:39:01.084 --> 00:39:04.921
lawyers and I mean, it may be lawyers,
a little getting a little better, but

00:39:04.921 --> 00:39:09.928
there's still a lot of like uncharted
territory where you've need professional

00:39:10.028 --> 00:39:14.488
advice, but you don't know who to ask
because they don't really know, you know,

00:39:14.978 --> 00:39:15.648
Alan: absolutely.

00:39:15.848 --> 00:39:18.328
I mean, it's, it was a, you know,
just when I was setting up the

00:39:18.328 --> 00:39:21.698
company here and, you know, the,
the first, thing, they, you know,

00:39:21.698 --> 00:39:24.538
the list of questions is, you know,
where's your revenue coming from?

00:39:24.678 --> 00:39:29.930
I'm like from selling software, like,
you know, services and you, well,

00:39:30.110 --> 00:39:34.090
what's your, you know, customers or
what's your, you know, billing stuff.

00:39:34.230 --> 00:39:37.490
And it, when you kind of say, I'm
not gonna be, you know, billing with

00:39:37.490 --> 00:39:41.410
invoices, I'm not gonna have an office
I'm gonna be selling primarily to abroad.

00:39:41.870 --> 00:39:44.690
And they're kind of just like,
what, who, what are you doing?

00:39:44.790 --> 00:39:45.450
Who are you?

00:39:46.585 --> 00:39:47.475
Mario: yeah, they don't know.

00:39:47.475 --> 00:39:48.395
They don't understand.

00:39:48.855 --> 00:39:53.803
And it surprises me because there with
so much business going on online, you

00:39:53.803 --> 00:39:55.943
would think that there would be, you?

00:39:55.943 --> 00:39:56.703
know, a lot of demand.

00:39:56.863 --> 00:40:00.418
I mean, there is a lot of demand, so
there should be more, professionals out

00:40:00.533 --> 00:40:00.823
Alan: Yeah.

00:40:00.983 --> 00:40:03.663
I mean, I guess it's, it's one of
those things where, you know, you kind

00:40:03.663 --> 00:40:07.103
of, we, we do live in a, a bit of a
bubble, you know, you think every,

00:40:07.193 --> 00:40:11.223
every man and his dog is making a
web upright and , apparently they're

00:40:11.223 --> 00:40:14.103
not, you know, it is still a small
number in the grand scheme of things.

00:40:14.234 --> 00:40:18.204
But obviously when you live in this
world, you kind of, it feels like

00:40:18.204 --> 00:40:21.404
everybody is building something
everybody's doing better than you

00:40:21.404 --> 00:40:26.644
everybody's having a lot, you know, it,
it's, it's very difficult to, to get a

00:40:26.644 --> 00:40:28.081
true perspective on things sometimes.

00:40:28.102 --> 00:40:31.722
And even, even when you know
that that's the case, it's

00:40:31.722 --> 00:40:32.762
still difficult to actually.

00:40:33.342 --> 00:40:33.962
Accept that.

00:40:34.069 --> 00:40:36.809
So yeah, I, I understand, but yeah.

00:40:36.809 --> 00:40:39.409
So for the, for the most part,
accountants say, you know, when you

00:40:39.409 --> 00:40:43.089
talk to, you know, look for accountants
and they expect you to basically

00:40:43.121 --> 00:40:47.501
have an office, be hire Japanese
people, see have Japanese customers.

00:40:47.530 --> 00:40:51.500
And then, you know, there's all these
assumptions and it's like, what, what do

00:40:51.500 --> 00:40:52.580
you mean you're not doing any of those.

00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:53.340
So it's like,

00:40:53.490 --> 00:40:53.780
Mario: yeah.

00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:56.020
Alan: how are you a business then?

00:40:56.170 --> 00:40:57.340
Well, it's just different.

00:40:58.050 --> 00:41:01.490
Mario: yeah, it's not, it's not brick and
mortar, you know, it's, it's a different

00:41:02.430 --> 00:41:05.040
Alan: they expect, they expect me
to be like running a bar or a coffee

00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:08.840
shop, you know, that's kind of
like the, the, the limit of kind of

00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.800
understanding of like, you know, what
kind of business I could be doing.

00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:14.109
It's yeah, it's difficult.

00:41:14.814 --> 00:41:15.104
Mario: yeah.

00:41:15.809 --> 00:41:19.389
Alan: so, I mean, my accountant, you
know, that I've got, I'm happy with him,

00:41:19.409 --> 00:41:21.409
you know, he seems to get it eventually.

00:41:21.430 --> 00:41:23.570
He just, you need to explain it.

00:41:25.885 --> 00:41:29.055
Mario: yeah, it's one, that's one of
the reasons why I've been reconsidering

00:41:29.055 --> 00:41:32.542
the whole Paddle thing, because you
know, if the, like you said, if I can

00:41:32.542 --> 00:41:36.695
remove, one thing from the equation
that I have to worry about, yeah.

00:41:36.695 --> 00:41:37.375
They take a cut.

00:41:37.595 --> 00:41:39.778
but, that may be worth the, the

00:41:40.038 --> 00:41:40.328
Alan: Yeah.

00:41:40.448 --> 00:41:43.128
I mean, E even if, even with Stripe,
they're still taking a cut for card

00:41:43.478 --> 00:41:43.638
Mario: still,

00:41:43.768 --> 00:41:43.968
Alan: stuff.

00:41:44.068 --> 00:41:46.488
So, you know, it's, it's just
a little bit more of a cut.

00:41:46.727 --> 00:41:51.308
And if it means it removes the lack
of, anxiety over whether I need to

00:41:51.308 --> 00:41:53.698
file something is worth it in my book.

00:41:54.518 --> 00:41:57.618
you know, I don't wanna be on the hook
for like, oh yeah, you should have filed

00:41:57.618 --> 00:41:59.658
this paperwork to, you know, Luxemburg.

00:41:59.678 --> 00:42:03.778
And I'm like, well, I didn't know
that  and now what's gonna happen now.

00:42:03.778 --> 00:42:06.778
You know, it it's just that unknown
and that stress and uncertainty

00:42:06.998 --> 00:42:10.086
of and especially when it comes
to tax, you know, it's, that's not

00:42:10.086 --> 00:42:11.606
something I ever want to mess with.

00:42:12.746 --> 00:42:13.036
Mario: yeah.

00:42:13.036 --> 00:42:15.636
And that's what I've been
thinking about and, and being

00:42:15.706 --> 00:42:18.756
that our businesses are online.

00:42:18.806 --> 00:42:19.156
Right.

00:42:19.296 --> 00:42:19.516
And

00:42:19.554 --> 00:42:19.794
Alan: I mean,

00:42:19.829 --> 00:42:24.009
Mario: you can, you potentially have
customers all over the world, so, you

00:42:24.009 --> 00:42:26.079
know, it becomes even more of an issue

00:42:26.454 --> 00:42:30.554
Alan: it always surprises me that, I
mean, I know Stripe is making roads in

00:42:30.554 --> 00:42:34.474
this area and they have, you know, things
that you can add on as extra services

00:42:34.474 --> 00:42:38.774
to take care of tax things and stuff,
but it really surprises me that it

00:42:38.774 --> 00:42:41.414
isn't like ultra high on their, roadmap.

00:42:41.424 --> 00:42:43.094
Maybe it is, it's just complicated.

00:42:43.094 --> 00:42:43.414
Right?

00:42:43.754 --> 00:42:49.328
So  it's it, because it feels
like you could get into a very

00:42:49.398 --> 00:42:51.685
deep, well of pain very easily.

00:42:52.465 --> 00:42:54.005
if you're not careful, right.

00:42:54.005 --> 00:42:56.725
You know, it's so easy to take
payments and then we will, now

00:42:56.725 --> 00:42:58.275
you gotta report these payments

00:42:58.825 --> 00:42:59.115
Mario: yeah,

00:42:59.535 --> 00:43:03.075
Alan: and you've just taken all this
money and it been, hopefully you've

00:43:03.075 --> 00:43:06.235
taken all this money and then suddenly
you have, you've realized that there

00:43:06.235 --> 00:43:09.770
are in, you know, 20 different countries
and, you know, Five different states.

00:43:09.950 --> 00:43:12.450
And, and guess what,
that's now your problem.

00:43:13.285 --> 00:43:13.575
Mario: yeah.

00:43:13.630 --> 00:43:17.530
Alan: so it's, yeah, that,
that would concern me.

00:43:17.710 --> 00:43:22.010
And it's good that, you know, payments
are being made much easier and Stripe

00:43:22.010 --> 00:43:26.850
is really, you know, led the way there,
but it feels like that its potential

00:43:26.870 --> 00:43:28.160
for shooting yourself in the foot.

00:43:28.180 --> 00:43:28.530
Right?

00:43:29.005 --> 00:43:29.755
Mario: Right, Right

00:43:31.046 --> 00:43:34.866
And I think I asked you this before, but
if you go with Paddle, you technically,

00:43:34.866 --> 00:43:39.706
you don't need a, a Stripe account
cuz you're, they're not using that.

00:43:39.706 --> 00:43:39.946
Right.

00:43:39.946 --> 00:43:40.746
They're they're not

00:43:40.817 --> 00:43:41.237
Alan: Mm-hmm

00:43:42.012 --> 00:43:43.462
Mario: They're they're
doing their own thing

00:43:43.462 --> 00:43:44.557
Alan: yes, they do the wrong thing.

00:43:44.637 --> 00:43:47.877
I mean, let's say on the, on your
credit card receipt, as in your

00:43:48.077 --> 00:43:50.597
customer's credit card receipt,
it says, you know, Paddle and then

00:43:50.597 --> 00:43:52.597
parentheses and your business name.

00:43:53.017 --> 00:43:57.027
So it, it does have your name on
the receipt, but there the, a seller

00:43:57.087 --> 00:44:00.227
of account, I forget what it's the
official term is, but yeah, they are

00:44:00.287 --> 00:44:02.394
the it's that they're selling it.

00:44:02.394 --> 00:44:03.274
Not you basically.

00:44:03.869 --> 00:44:04.219
Mario: right.

00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:09.398
And so that means you can create plans
like payment not plans like subscriptions

00:44:09.413 --> 00:44:09.573
Alan: Yep.

00:44:09.573 --> 00:44:09.773
Yep.

00:44:09.833 --> 00:44:12.533
You, you can create as many different
subscription plans you can do.

00:44:12.656 --> 00:44:16.358
You could do a plan per you can set
different prices per region as well.

00:44:16.458 --> 00:44:20.956
So like my monthly price I can set a round
number in dollars and a round number in

00:44:20.956 --> 00:44:25.151
Yen just because otherwise, you know,
it's like, if you're in the us and it

00:44:25.151 --> 00:44:30.231
comes out and it's, it's $43 29 cents
a month, you're like, what the hell?

00:44:31.211 --> 00:44:34.471
you know, it's easy just to say
it's 45 and or 40, and, you know,

00:44:34.571 --> 00:44:37.671
so you can set a, a number for each
region if you want, or just set it

00:44:37.671 --> 00:44:40.731
in dollars and let it auto translate
to whatever the, the equivalent is.

00:44:40.731 --> 00:44:44.685
And then obviously the sales taxes
added on top of that and that's just

00:44:44.685 --> 00:44:48.664
done automatically stuff like it, yeah,
you can set like annual or monthly.

00:44:48.924 --> 00:44:50.304
You recurring ones.

00:44:50.304 --> 00:44:51.784
One off you, you do everything in there.

00:44:51.804 --> 00:44:52.424
So it's good.

00:44:52.479 --> 00:44:55.894
Mario: so one of the things that
I, that I would like to do that

00:44:55.894 --> 00:44:59.542
I've been thinking about for a long
time is doing purchasing, parity

00:44:59.542 --> 00:45:00.053
Alan: Yeah, yeah.

00:45:00.163 --> 00:45:01.013
It'd be nice to do.

00:45:01.363 --> 00:45:02.393
Mario: I can never, that.

00:45:02.393 --> 00:45:04.023
Alan: purchasing parity.

00:45:04.533 --> 00:45:05.563
Mario: Power parity

00:45:05.953 --> 00:45:06.373
Alan: parity.

00:45:06.373 --> 00:45:06.573
Yes.

00:45:06.641 --> 00:45:09.244
Mario: So I've been thinking
about, I would love to do that.

00:45:09.244 --> 00:45:13.364
That's one of my goals and I don't know
if, and that's one of the reasons I wanted

00:45:13.504 --> 00:45:17.159
to use Stripe because, my thinking was
that I could, do more custom stuff with

00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.439
it, you know, and, and do stuff like that.

00:45:19.889 --> 00:45:22.466
But I, don't know if that's
something that I could do with Paddle

00:45:22.856 --> 00:45:25.196
Alan: I'd say you've got this option
of just being able to set different

00:45:25.746 --> 00:45:27.026
currencies to be different prices.

00:45:27.076 --> 00:45:29.256
Mario: And that's what I'm, that's
what made me think of that, because

00:45:29.276 --> 00:45:32.776
if you can set up different prices
per region or something like that,

00:45:32.846 --> 00:45:34.776
then maybe there's a way to do that.

00:45:35.346 --> 00:45:35.566
Alan: Yes.

00:45:35.776 --> 00:45:36.256
Mario: I don't know.

00:45:36.296 --> 00:45:39.566
Alan: think you can, I, I, yeah,
I didn't look at it closely.

00:45:39.965 --> 00:45:43.315
But I think there's, there's a way
of I say you, because you can set it

00:45:43.315 --> 00:45:46.323
with the currency, which is, you know,
if you're paying with a card in that

00:45:46.483 --> 00:45:48.923
currency, that means that's where you are.

00:45:48.923 --> 00:45:49.123
Right.

00:45:49.668 --> 00:45:50.071
Mario: Mm-hmm

00:45:50.071 --> 00:45:54.264
Alan: If it was just so I, I think that's,
that's far, they do, they might do more.

00:45:54.464 --> 00:45:55.584
I, I didn't look into that,

00:45:56.279 --> 00:45:58.849
Mario: So they support all kinds
of currencies around the world.

00:45:59.124 --> 00:45:59.344
Alan: Yes.

00:45:59.564 --> 00:45:59.784
Yes.

00:45:59.814 --> 00:46:00.784
It's a very big list.

00:46:01.714 --> 00:46:04.984
which is why I only picked a dollar
and Yen because it's like, well, I'm

00:46:04.984 --> 00:46:08.904
not gonna sit price for everywhere,
but  the main ones are fine.

00:46:09.484 --> 00:46:09.704
So.

00:46:10.069 --> 00:46:10.289
Mario: Huh.

00:46:10.347 --> 00:46:10.687
All right.

00:46:11.001 --> 00:46:11.721
More to think about

00:46:13.121 --> 00:46:15.901
Alan: And so the, the interface to it
is very straightforward as well, you

00:46:15.901 --> 00:46:19.661
know, in terms of getting web hooks
and there's an API as well, but I, I

00:46:19.661 --> 00:46:21.361
just rely on Webhooks for most things.

00:46:21.361 --> 00:46:24.854
And you know, they have like a, you
know, just a good retry think and it's

00:46:24.921 --> 00:46:26.381
yeah, it's, it's pretty straightforward.

00:46:26.449 --> 00:46:31.219
The, the biggest thing, which through
me is just having, so because I

00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:38.019
did monthly billing and with three
plans and annual billing with three

00:46:38.069 --> 00:46:40.499
plans, that means I've got six plans.

00:46:40.499 --> 00:46:40.779
Right.

00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:45.339
So then you've got, and I'm like, this was
a bad idea, you know, in, in hindsight,

00:46:46.429 --> 00:46:48.729
maybe I should just kept it to one or two.

00:46:48.796 --> 00:46:51.723
And just said, you know, like it's
monthly billing and it's this price

00:46:51.983 --> 00:46:56.181
and there's two plans or something
for, for, to start off with, well,

00:46:56.221 --> 00:47:00.421
I mean, you can, but every, an
annual subscription is just another.

00:47:01.106 --> 00:47:02.769
Price another subscription type.

00:47:02.769 --> 00:47:03.089
Right.

00:47:03.107 --> 00:47:06.598
It just means that, you know, there's,
there's so many more cases to check.

00:47:06.598 --> 00:47:06.918
Right.

00:47:07.058 --> 00:47:07.358
You know?

00:47:07.442 --> 00:47:12.044
And so you, each one of those has
a different subscription code type.

00:47:12.384 --> 00:47:15.884
So you get a thing that says,
oh, I got, you know, type 16.

00:47:15.904 --> 00:47:19.754
And you're like, okay, what's that
then you like, okay, you've got that.

00:47:19.754 --> 00:47:21.594
Which means you, you paid this here.

00:47:21.654 --> 00:47:28.194
And it's just so much like logic just
to maintain when they, and then of

00:47:28.194 --> 00:47:32.074
course you got, you know, if they
cancel, they, their cancellation only

00:47:32.094 --> 00:47:34.674
starts at the end of that billing cycle.

00:47:34.684 --> 00:47:35.034
Right.

00:47:35.414 --> 00:47:38.794
So they've stopped paying and you've
had the notification, but, and you

00:47:38.794 --> 00:47:41.624
won't be them again, but you've
gotta provide the service until.

00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:43.611
The, the, this other data in the future.

00:47:43.611 --> 00:47:43.931
Right?

00:47:43.951 --> 00:47:48.331
So the logic, it it's surprising just
how many details there are to it.

00:47:48.351 --> 00:47:51.131
It sounds like, oh, you just,
you know, you can hit up that

00:47:51.131 --> 00:47:53.011
hit this API and you get billed.

00:47:53.271 --> 00:47:56.771
And then there's all of these
little things that you've

00:47:56.771 --> 00:47:57.651
gotta take into account.

00:47:57.891 --> 00:48:00.921
I mean, but their services
is very straightforward.

00:48:00.935 --> 00:48:02.459
But that's just a lot to it.

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:05.579
and again, as a first case, I mean,
that's why, you know, when you talked

00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:08.979
about, you know, billing, metering
and things, and it's like, just try

00:48:08.979 --> 00:48:11.539
and keep it as simple as you possibly
can, at least for the first one,

00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:15.939
just because, you know, I, I overdid
it and I regret that now,  you over

00:48:15.939 --> 00:48:19.929
did everything  oh, how

00:48:20.139 --> 00:48:25.079
Mario: and this, and this is all through
and this is all with the API, right?

00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:29.799
This is your custom integration
with their using their API and web

00:48:29.804 --> 00:48:33.940
Alan: I, I just use the JavaScript
thing to overlay the payment thing.

00:48:34.080 --> 00:48:36.940
So there's basically a JavaScript
hook, which you basically just say.

00:48:38.180 --> 00:48:41.933
And it pops over the, an overlay
when they complete it, they, you

00:48:41.953 --> 00:48:46.493
can specify a URL to get pushed
to so successful subscription.

00:48:46.803 --> 00:48:50.613
They end up at a different URL and you get
the web hook, you can do stuff with it.

00:48:50.668 --> 00:48:53.303
It's all very, I said, pretty
straightforward and the

00:48:53.463 --> 00:48:54.383
documentation's pretty good.

00:48:54.383 --> 00:48:55.783
There's a sandbox account as well.

00:48:55.803 --> 00:49:00.053
So you can, but of us then you've got a
sandbox account, but of course, because

00:49:00.053 --> 00:49:01.973
it's a completely separate thing, right.

00:49:02.833 --> 00:49:07.173
You create sandbox subscriptions, which
of course have different ideas as well.

00:49:07.593 --> 00:49:09.693
you're like, why do I
take account to this?

00:49:09.753 --> 00:49:11.573
So then you abstract that in your code.

00:49:11.713 --> 00:49:14.453
So you've got like environment
variables, setting what the

00:49:14.453 --> 00:49:15.333
different place plans are.

00:49:15.333 --> 00:49:18.563
And it's just like all of this
complexity building on top of each other.

00:49:18.583 --> 00:49:21.803
And all I wanna know is if they're
paid fourty dollars or not, that's it,

00:49:21.943 --> 00:49:22.753
, 
Mario: yeah, yeah.

00:49:23.033 --> 00:49:25.883
Alan: it's surprising how
quickly all of this, you know,

00:49:25.883 --> 00:49:26.943
just builds upon each other.

00:49:26.963 --> 00:49:27.283
Right.

00:49:27.343 --> 00:49:27.563
So.

00:49:27.898 --> 00:49:28.188
Mario: Yeah.

00:49:28.538 --> 00:49:29.908
Yeah, for sure.

00:49:31.048 --> 00:49:31.428
All right.

00:49:31.698 --> 00:49:33.538
Well, more to think about and, I'll see.

00:49:33.728 --> 00:49:35.018
I'll have to revisit that

00:49:35.688 --> 00:49:37.908
Alan: that's why, I mean, I think,
you know, you talked last time about

00:49:37.908 --> 00:49:41.103
having like a, a I forgot what you
called it, but basically things

00:49:41.203 --> 00:49:44.383
expire your, your storage is for a
certain amount of time or something,

00:49:44.593 --> 00:49:45.728
Mario: oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:45.728 --> 00:49:46.018
Yeah.

00:49:46.098 --> 00:49:47.178
now I can't think of the term

00:49:47.368 --> 00:49:50.738
Alan: yeah, I know it's my, my, my
mind has gone blank too, but yeah,

00:49:50.798 --> 00:49:55.338
I'd, I'd say just, you know, my advice
would be, try to minimize the options

00:49:55.838 --> 00:49:57.458
in as much as physically possible.

00:49:57.708 --> 00:50:02.391
You know, if that includes just having
a lower monthly plan and a higher annual

00:50:02.501 --> 00:50:05.671
plan or something, because if they're
gonna want higher anyway, they're probably

00:50:05.671 --> 00:50:07.661
gonna want to pay the long term anyway.

00:50:07.721 --> 00:50:11.741
So just the, the less subscription
plans you have, the easier

00:50:11.891 --> 00:50:13.021
your life is going to be.

00:50:13.241 --> 00:50:14.181
So that's my.

00:50:14.205 --> 00:50:14.495
Mario: Yeah.

00:50:14.495 --> 00:50:15.015
That's true.

00:50:16.085 --> 00:50:16.925
Retention period.

00:50:17.005 --> 00:50:17.595
Alan: There we go.

00:50:17.595 --> 00:50:18.035
That's the one.

00:50:18.035 --> 00:50:18.275
Yeah.

00:50:18.275 --> 00:50:18.515
Yeah.

00:50:18.545 --> 00:50:19.035
Hold on.

00:50:19.475 --> 00:50:20.565
Mario: File retention period.

00:50:21.475 --> 00:50:21.765
yeah.

00:50:22.766 --> 00:50:24.906
Alan: My language ability is dropping off.

00:50:25.031 --> 00:50:25.401
nice one.

00:50:25.820 --> 00:50:28.570
I hope you can get this stuff
finished anyway, cuz I think it'd

00:50:28.570 --> 00:50:30.050
be a big relief for you as well.

00:50:30.070 --> 00:50:34.050
So, so hopefully next time I'll have
a report on how my app went down and

00:50:34.050 --> 00:50:37.790
the fact that it's in the store and
and I've working on a new landing page.

00:50:37.790 --> 00:50:39.230
That's my goal for the next chat.

00:50:39.230 --> 00:50:41.670
how's See if I can meet it

00:50:42.450 --> 00:50:42.740
Mario: Nice.

00:50:42.930 --> 00:50:43.220
Nice.

00:50:43.770 --> 00:50:48.106
Well, my, my goal for next time
is to already be working on

00:50:48.136 --> 00:50:53.176
pricing and billing integration,
whether it's Paddle or whatever it

00:50:53.276 --> 00:50:56.306
Alan: there is say there is an
approval time with Paddle, so you

00:50:56.306 --> 00:50:59.359
have to apply and get kind of they
have to check your business account

00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.879
business details and they have to,
you know, also see your application.

00:51:02.899 --> 00:51:06.329
You do like some screenshots or, you
know, a video showing them what it is.

00:51:06.329 --> 00:51:08.564
You have gotta explain all
of the, you know, what you're

00:51:08.564 --> 00:51:10.004
billing for and, and all the rest.

00:51:10.104 --> 00:51:11.938
So read their acceptable cases.

00:51:12.338 --> 00:51:15.164
I mean, yours is fine, but they
will ask questions about it.

00:51:15.224 --> 00:51:16.944
So it isn't just a straight approval.

00:51:16.996 --> 00:51:21.733
So you'll be fine, but just one it's
not immediate, but you can you, you can

00:51:21.733 --> 00:51:25.253
send it for a sandbox account in the
meantime and use that to, to develop it.

00:51:25.473 --> 00:51:29.043
But before you go live,
there's a period where you So,

00:51:29.248 --> 00:51:29.538
Mario: Yeah.

00:51:30.328 --> 00:51:30.618
Yeah.

00:51:30.688 --> 00:51:32.218
Well, that's another thing I need to do.

00:51:32.338 --> 00:51:35.815
I need to, file, for,
establishing my company legally,

00:51:36.230 --> 00:51:37.330
Alan: ah, might be an idea.

00:51:37.815 --> 00:51:38.675
Mario: cuz I haven't.

00:51:38.675 --> 00:51:39.235
done that yet.

00:51:39.375 --> 00:51:42.976
And part of the reason was I was waiting
for this year to roll around because

00:51:42.976 --> 00:51:48.636
in, in California there's a minimum
tax that I would have to pay, even if I

00:51:49.151 --> 00:51:49.691
Alan: No income.

00:51:49.691 --> 00:51:50.171
Right, right.

00:51:50.191 --> 00:51:50.611
No revenue.

00:51:50.761 --> 00:51:51.051
Yeah.

00:51:51.051 --> 00:51:51.651
Still go pay.

00:51:51.651 --> 00:51:52.091
Right, right,

00:51:52.256 --> 00:51:57.836
Mario: And so if I, if I did it late in
the year, last year, then I would've been

00:51:57.836 --> 00:52:00.076
on the hook already for, for the taxes.

00:52:00.076 --> 00:52:00.236
So

00:52:00.631 --> 00:52:00.851
Alan: Yep.

00:52:01.416 --> 00:52:03.236
Mario: now that it's beginning
of the year, I can do it.

00:52:03.316 --> 00:52:05.386
I have a whole, whole year to, you know

00:52:05.571 --> 00:52:05.791
Alan: Yep.

00:52:06.531 --> 00:52:07.231
You'll be fine.

00:52:07.231 --> 00:52:11.603
You'll you'll say I I'm have no doubt
that you'll be having customers lining up.

00:52:11.674 --> 00:52:12.154
Mario: I hope so.

00:52:12.549 --> 00:52:14.799
Alan: well, I mean, you know,
I think, you know, the, as I

00:52:14.799 --> 00:52:16.959
said, you know who to target you.

00:52:17.019 --> 00:52:19.599
If you set a sensible
price plan, you're fine.

00:52:19.715 --> 00:52:21.135
You you've got no
problems with the product.

00:52:21.198 --> 00:52:23.858
You know, it's exactly what
I think a lot of people want.

00:52:23.958 --> 00:52:27.218
So just getting people to know about
you is gonna be the, the fun bit

00:52:27.943 --> 00:52:28.233
. 
Mario: Yeah.

00:52:28.423 --> 00:52:28.713
Yeah.

00:52:28.713 --> 00:52:32.353
That's the challenge just to
get the word out, but Yeah.

00:52:32.983 --> 00:52:33.633
Well, thank you.

00:52:33.873 --> 00:52:34.633
I appreciate that.

00:52:34.813 --> 00:52:35.953
And I hope that's the case.

00:52:37.938 --> 00:52:39.248
Alan: Time will tell, but I'm sure

00:52:39.248 --> 00:52:39.538
Mario: Yeah.

00:52:40.245 --> 00:52:40.535
Awesome.

00:52:40.915 --> 00:52:42.375
Should we wrap it up here then?

00:52:42.550 --> 00:52:42.710
Alan: it.

00:52:43.085 --> 00:52:43.425
Mario: All right.

00:52:43.615 --> 00:52:46.732
Well, it's nice as always
see you in a Couple of weeks

00:52:46.747 --> 00:52:49.147
Alan: of weeks and say, I
wanna hear all about the next

00:52:49.185 --> 00:52:50.345
about your pricing strategy.

00:52:51.070 --> 00:52:51.560
Mario: Awesome.

00:52:51.870 --> 00:52:52.160
Yeah.

00:52:52.350 --> 00:52:53.440
Need to figure that out.

00:52:54.475 --> 00:52:55.055
Alan: cheers, man.

00:52:55.460 --> 00:52:55.800
Mario: All right.

00:52:56.030 --> 00:52:56.520
Take care.

00:52:56.682 --> 00:52:56.912
Alan: Cheers.