You can literally see the bottom of the barrel. You're scared, but you're shipping even though you're scared.

I am joined today by my friend, Utpal, who is the cofounder of Digger. Dev. And I've known Utpal for a really long time and seen the trajectory of Digger. Dev. We talk about like the dark days and then how they got through that and how now they're just going from strength to strength.

We're literally shipping something new every day. Like, you know, some of the ideas were almost crazy. It was an existential crisis. Let's put it that way. Right?

People don't believe in you until they do, and then they don't stop believing in you.

Are you moving to SF?

Yeah. We are. We are moving to SF. We found out super early that a large chunk of our customer base lives there, lives, like, in the city. The most helpful and the loudest customers Yeah.

Were there. And we did a couple of trips where we just went to their offices, sat with them, started gathering feedback, what works, what doesn't work. There's huge backlog that still exists. Like

Just from

Just just from that trip and, like More more trips like that.

You can even get.

100%. And the quality of feedback and this is a primary reason, I think, because just the loop of you shipping stuff that they need and them getting back and then going through that loop multiple times, I think builds so I have a firm belief that the type of customer you get begets the the next type of customer you get. Right? Like, so, it was an internal belief that if people like that do not become our core user base, we lose because it's just not fast enough. It's just not the loop isn't quick enough.

Yeah. And, yeah, it's just been helpful that way. And that was sometime last year. Also, risk capital access to risk capital, this is obvious. Right?

Like, it's it's the best there. People understand how open source monetization works. Yeah. What GTM works for DevOps, What GTM works for cybersecurity? What GTM works for you know, DevTools is a broad category.

Your persona is not real like, the first persona that actually evangelizes or uses your tool is slightly different for different tools.

Mhmm.

Is this a front end centric tool? Is this? I don't know. Like, there's there's different

Yeah.

It's it's tailored to different personas even within a specific tool. Like, for example, I was I was tweeted about this yesterday, like, Acordium or a Windsurf. Right? Like, they have a separate enterprise product Mhmm. And a separate product for, like, hackers, you know, the YC persona, hacking out of dorm room.

There's two separate products. So a, we we think that access to different personas in turn like, mini personas internally on underneath your actual persona is is very easy. And also the fact that, obviously, access to risk capital. So that's the reason why we're moving to SF. Long story short.

Yeah. Well, how are you like like paint the picture because I remember Colin from Clerk talking about like just standing like he was just like watching his early customers use Clerk and like that was super helpful. Like what what was it like? Like you were just like, hey, you wanna go for coffee or like what?

No. It's that's the good thing about open source. People are willing to talk to you, because they have issues that need to be solved. Every sing like, our Slack community is growing super fast, and every single like, if we wanna talk to somebody and that person has used Digger long enough, they're willing to talk to you regardless of whether there's anything coming out of that call because the tool has given them something to talk about. So they they'll come and talk to about their pains.

They'll come and talk like, this is not even like, it you don't even have to try hard. Yeah. But how we do things is almost like, hey. Can we sit with you or your team and and and understand how you'd see Digger growing internally in the next six months maybe? You know, Adam Frankel's book has this wand wand, whatever you wanna call I don't know the right pronunciation, but, like, what I'm trying to say is, like, if you have that, you have this magic Yeah.

What would you do? Right? Like, that's actually a powerful question. Yeah. It's not necessarily just a top of the funnel question, but it's also a question to people for open source specific reasons, people using your free thing, people using your open source thing.

What would you want that doesn't exist yet? It's a powerful sort of, question to ask, and people are opinionated. People will share. But regardless of that, it's just in their in their open source workflow even. Right?

Every open source tool can be better. Yeah. Like, it's a given. Right? Like, just the open source journey.

Right? Maybe tools that have been around for twenty plus years, maybe they they they they figured everything out, but, like, why are there 250 issues every single day? Like, they are opinionated and you learn. And the learning is incremental in the sense that you talk to 10 people, let's say. You start seeing reckoning patterns.

You start seeing, okay, here's their most burning need. I'm I'm trying to stop me when I repeat what Adam Frankel's already said because a large part

of it Adam Adam Frankel deserves to be repeated.

But, like, it it helps to get to a point where everybody says the same thing, and then it gets to a point where why haven't we done it yet? Yeah. And that loop has happened multiple times. Continues to happen, by the way, and it's super annoying because at every single point, iteratively, there's always another loop that you need to you need to do. And, like, we've done a few loops like that.

We know that some loops need to be done that are in the backlog. Yeah. But what I'm trying to get at is you you speak to people long enough. You speak to people for who and it's it's super like, we are super careful in in in choosing who we speak to as well. We have, like, a persona in mind.

If it's outside of that persona, I think the open source thing is good enough for them and, like Yeah. They could continue to use it. We're optimizing for a certain type of user. And if they're if they fall in that category and stuff is repeating stuff is repeating after a certain significant amount, why haven't we done it yet? And that's that's the accountability factor.

I'm not claiming that we've done everything that users want either. We're a super small team even now. But, yeah, it it just helps in that in that sense.

Scaling DevTools is sponsored by WorkOS. If things start going well, some of your customers are gonna start asking for enterprise features. Things like audit trails, SSO, SCIM provisioning, role based access control. These things are hard to build and you could get stuck spending all your time doing that instead of actually making a great dev tool. That's why WorkOS exists.

They help you with all of those enterprise features and they're trusted by OpenAI, Vercel, and Perplexity. And for user management, the first million monthly active users are completely free. Let's hear from Utpal from digger.dev, a dev tool using WorkOS.

How it's designed is that you can start as early as day zero. But for us, it wasn't day zero. It was closer to when we first started monetizing because we didn't have a sign up at all. People could just anonymously use our tool. So it was a little later.

It coincided with when we wanted to start monetizing and, like, we needed a nice enterprise feature set. If you're open source and you're doing enterprise first, the minute you think about monetization is when you should think about WorkOS. To be honest, if we do that again, I think I would think about that on day zero, to be honest. Because, like, we should have done it on day zero ideally. Anonymous usage should be permitted, but you should know who's using your tool.

It should be optional, 100%. It should be opt in, 100%. But it'd be great to have auth from day zero. You don't necessarily think about these enterprise features, but they still lead revenue. And it kinda is a no brainer in that sense.

So, yeah, I highly recommend.

So we're timing this. So that So you will have announced this by Yeah. By then. But it's you, Igor and Moe Yeah. Right now.

Yeah. And has been for a while. Yeah. And it's kind of a crazy amount of progress that you guys have made. But I know it's always been easy.

So maybe you could share a little bit about like about the times that maybe you could take us back to like the darkest time. Yeah. First of all. Now it's There

have been there have been so many. But, yeah, it's it it like, the skill sets are so complementary. It's Yeah. It's great. But

So we've got Moe who's, like, hardcore, like

So if there's a there's a spectrum. Right? Yeah. Moe's the I'd call him a 100 x engineer. He's almost maintained it with Igor for the last couple of years.

It's used in production in the most compliance sensitive enterprises, like the the open source product, and it's being maintained by them twenty four hours. Right? Like and and there's support needed in Australia for a bank and there's support needed for government organizations in The United States. And, like, it's being done on a twenty four hour basis for the last two ish years. Right?

Yeah. So coming back to the spectrum

And such a nice guy as well.

Just Yeah. 100%. 100%.

The nicest guy.

Like, we have so many debates, and Moe's the kind of guy who just wants to shit. Like, he's he's one of the most cracked engineers I've ever worked with. Yeah. And and and seen and I've seen a few. Honestly, massive respect for him.

So more on the on the most technical side, Igor's has mass Igor has massive experience with working in one of the best organizations in the world, in the past. He's super experienced. He is product centric as well. So he brings that technical plus product sort of mindset, and he sits there.

He he's like a mad scientist as well. Like, I feel like he's like kind of that kind of persona of

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, yeah, very interesting persona, very opinionated persona. Yeah. We have fierce, fierce debates.

Like, it's crazy that kind of debates we have. All constructive. And and I'm not just saying this because it's a podcast, but it's a genuine No.

No. No. I've I've spent a lot of time with these guys. I

Gosh. It's it's great, honestly. Sometimes, we get frustrated that we're we're we're constructively debating more than we're shipping, but then we we look at the result and then we realize we ship way more than the average person. Yeah. But there's there's so much debating that's gone into it that, like, nothing else can exist but, like, that thing.

So Igor, slightly I'd say more product centric Mhmm. But like super technical as well. I'm the least technical, but I've gotten more and more technical as my time here has gone on. Handle more user facing stuff. Mhmm.

And how far people find us, for example. Yeah. How neat are our docs, which is admittedly can be way better. Right? Like but, like, that's top and middle of the funnel stuff is what I handle.

Like, how can we get more people on our Slack? How can we well, support is a is a burning issue. We we're still working on how to how to fix that, more, and you gotta have the two people working on that. But what what what helped us is that, look, with this team

You do.

We got it to half a million plus downloads. We got it to 4.5 k stars. We have over 300 organizations using it in production every single day. Over the last couple of months, our our usage has gone up 2.53 x, you know, in terms of deployments per day. Yeah.

So we have the growth. We we've we've done so much. And I think it was on the back of that that we went out to SF to raise and we closed it out recently.

And but I I I think it's even more interesting, your story, in the sense that it was like, when I first met you guys, was like you're working on something that was like quite different back in the day. And it was like you had raised money, you had this like great team and I think it's like it but it was just it was just this imposs this I don't I won't say impossible. It's like the hardest product to build in DevTools which is like the kind of like AWS but easy to use. You know, there's people doing it and it's but it's like super hard. Yeah.

And I think like we've spoken about this on the other podcast but that we did but like it was like you got to this point where it was like kind of running out money like it's just like it's suddenly just you free guys. It's like I think most people would have like honestly not have been able to like come through that period. Yeah. But you just like, you you kept going and it's like in it's seriously like incredible.

Yeah. Some would call us crazy though. Like, if you look at if you look at I don't know, family situations where we were, like Yeah. In the last year or so, it's it's crazy. Like, the stuff we've done to to stay afloat.

At some point, like, we're stay like, you can literally see the bottom of the barrel. Yeah. And, like, at that time, you scared, but you're shipping even though you're scared because, like, users keep knocking on your door Yeah. And you keep doing that stuff. We spoke to a lot of people.

And I think one other thing about the about SF is that the community is great. Yeah. I I genuinely wanna mention Michael Greenwich here because, like, a conversation with him where we were actually toying with, you know, what what what next. Right? Like, okay.

It was almost like, what next, basically. But he sat us down and said that people would actually die for what we have today. Like, they would genuinely be super happy that you you can call it project market fit. Right? I used to call it product community fit, and I know you you mentioned that it doesn't exist as a term when we invented it or

On the last one. Yeah. Yeah. Did I

No. Offline, I think. Okay. It's multiple iterations where I keep sending you stuff on WhatsApp and whatnot. But, yeah, by the way, Jack's super helpful.

Even even, like, we I keep sending stuff that we're shipping to him, and and he keeps roasting it for us. It's super helpful. But but, what I was getting at is in that conversations with with Michael and and a bunch of others. I think Michael's was the most helpful. Some we we we went to some meetups and kept sharing what we were thinking about, what we were doing.

And the most impressive thing that we'd done was the open source thing, was was bigger, the open source project. It was the fact that it works. People use it every day. Make something people want. Right?

Like, people want this thing. They're using it every day. There is a market for it. Incumbents are making money off of it. Why are you doing anything else?

Yeah. That's the that was that was the that was the thing. And like

And you said once you turned off the demos. Right?

Yeah. It was a it was a very interesting time because, like, we shut the link to the so we the only way to use the enterprise product we've had multiple iterations on this as well, but the only way to use the enterprise product back then, and hopefully not anymore, is we we we should have self-service ASAP, by the time this is released, hopefully. But, like, how how back when this happened, how people could access the enterprise product was only through a demo. And that was the only way a commercial intent gets exposed to Yeah. Our team.

We thought, okay, We're figuring stuff out. Let's just remove that link on the landing page. We've there are often links elsewhere. Right? Like, there's some in the docs, some in on Medium, some on blogs blog posts, and, like, where not where else?

Right? Like, I don't know.

Hidden, though. Let's say

let's say hidden. Yeah. Hidden. Yeah. There there are links elsewhere, which I didn't know about, but existed.

Put put put Someone put them there. Yeah. Someone put them someone put them the the only person who handles the blog is is in this room. So so that that's how I put it there.

Who wrote this code? Oh, oops. That was me.

Yeah. But but, funnily enough, we, a, had that week, it was an existential crisis. Let's put it that way. Right? Like, we we we we we're literally shipping something new every day.

Like Yeah.

You know, some of the ideas were almost crazy. Right? Like, we we we were almost like, wake up, ship something new, see if it works.

Was this during the days of the, like, product launches still? No. No. It was much later. Was later.

Much later. Much later. Open source thing was working. Okay. Yeah.

Right? Like But it was like shipping related things to the open source.

Not really. Really?

We we It's fully rogue.

And the thing is, right, like, we're getting demos from the best of the best companies. Right? Yeah. The outbound, inbound doesn't matter, but like we're speaking to the likes of ServiceNow. We're speaking to Palo Alto Networks.

We're speaking to all of these guys who are extremely impressed

With Digger.

With Digger, the open source project. They've heard of it. Yeah. DevOps engineers and their team know about it. And then we're like, look, we're working on this new thing.

We're doing this tab, you know, like, does this matter or not? And I'm like, what are we on about? Right? Like, the the and the realization came very interestingly because we got two or three inbound demos booked, on in that week when the link didn't exist. Yeah.

So, basically, they they had to find it and book it. Yeah. That was number one. And b, we also got the single highest, like, weekly usage Mhmm. By deployments.

I may be wrong here, but there's an event and I think it's deployments Yes. For the sake of the podcast.

You you built something that people you you built something people wanted. Yeah. You kind of were like, is it because like it was so familiar. Like, you're like, yeah. Like, you kind of didn't appreciate what you had.

100%. Also By

the way, also say say what Digger the open source project is just in case anyone hasn't.

It's a Terraform automation tool. Simply, it helps non ops engineers to use Terraform easily in pull requests. So that's that's what it does. It is open source. So I think a large function of what happened there was what most open source maintainers would face.

I think we've spoken about this offline, but, like, the hardest part about any commercial open source project, especially if you're not starting OpenCore with something proprietary from day zero, is when do you turn on the monitor monetization switch. There are people with different opinions about this. People say you bundle your open source thing with a proprietary thing and just give that as a package. GitLab does that really well. You know, you can't tell what's OpenCore from what's not and then what's proprietary from what's not.

You use the package. You use the package. It's effectively GitHub, but open source. But, like, it's great. And they they call it BIO based OpenCore.

It's a beautiful model. I think SADA's written extensively about it. But I'm I may have butchered what it means, by the way. But but from from a layman's perspective, it's it's bundled proprietary stuff with with open source stuff and give it as a package. But what I'm trying to get at is the crisis that we had internally is a crisis that any open source maintainer slash commercial open source founder would have, which is how best to position your monetization.

It was it was simply because we hadn't made money for the longest time. Mhmm. Right? Like and we started making money after that and like it became repeatable and and it's gotten much better since then. But like, I think it's a challenge and we haven't fully figured out figured this out like many others who who also haven't figured it out, but are figuring it out as they go.

I think there's a catch 22 situation where a, when do you turn on the switch? Like Yeah. Too early and there's no evangelism. There's there's nobody knows about you. Like, you're effectively a SaaS tool at that point, which is proprietary whatnot.

Cool. But, like, your open source angle loses its

Yeah. It's it's Hizass.

Yeah. Exactly. And you do it too late and they call you, oh, licensing change, rug pull, whatnot. Right? Like, we all know who who like, the the defaulters here.

Defaulters. But but, like, what I'm trying to say is that there is no right time in that spectrum. And, like Yeah. It's just a learning, I guess, that we're not alone here. A large number of open source projects face this problem.

We've just gotta keep shipping, and we've gotta find ways to charge people just like that loop that I spoke about earlier. Right? Yeah. That is with a customer for usage, and there's a similar loop for monetization. Mhmm.

You do the first loop doesn't work. Okay. What would you pay for now? And then you do another loop, doesn't work. What would you pay for now?

And then and then we started I think there are usage loops and there are monetization loops, and they're kind of they're not fully separate, but they're distinct projects on their own, I think. That is why, like for example, a great example is PlanetScale and Bitesse. It's, like, two separate things almost, but, like, it's great how they've monetized it. I think their branding is great. The way they've the acquiring usage users is great.

Different way to do it is Next. Js and Versal. It's a satellite service. Mhmm. And, like, it's not even open source, but, like, they're known for their open source contribution.

They keep acquiring, you know, new and cool open source companies. There's different ways to do this, and, obviously, I'm I'm the worst person to mention this because like there are much better people who've written about this and it's literatures out there. What I'm trying to get at is that it it it's just interesting that like it exists out there and we just were freaking out internally. Like, that that that that's what happened. SF helped and Michael helped and here we are.

Yeah. That's, that's it is

that so it's basically it's like, I guess you open source becomes like, if you if you build something so good, why would anyone if they could just use the the amazing open source project, how they give you money. And then I think going to SF, speaking to like Michael, others, you realize that actually you that's a solvable problem. Yep. Yeah. And the hard bit is what you've already done.

100%. I am not against London as an ecosystem, but, like, there's not many commercial open source founders who can go and knock on their doors and say, what's up, man? Like, how are you handling this? Posthog has done it really well, but a Posthog is interesting because, like, the the the initial open source project and what they've built today

Which I think James has said publicly that like, the SaaS is the focus.

Yeah. Great. And they're doing really well. Yeah. So massive respect for them.

But other than that, we don't have people of our stage.

Yeah. We got, I guess yeah. Like, you and Trigger.

Yeah. There are few. Like, the the London

I guess you don't have you don't have like the the people that you could go to. It's like Mitchell Yeah. Hashimoto

A 100%.

Like, these kind of guys. Not that he's an ass off.

The the thing is, it it kinda helps to have people feeling the same failures as you. Like like that I don't know if this makes sense, but like, you need to have the same failures as somebody else. Like, you need to be facing the same problems. You need to you need to have it's it's if you don't have a community of people facing the same problems from a monitor like, this is I think there's great comer noncommercial open source in in in Europe and and The UK in general by historically as well. Yeah.

But we just couldn't find the community that we did Yeah. In SF. And it was one of the factors in saving the company. Also, like, we're all figuring it out kind of way. Right?

Like, people are at series c, series d, and they're still figuring it out. Yeah. Different. Yeah. You don't have to have it all figured out Yeah.

To to to to to clear those landmarks. So that was also a learning for us. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty interesting.

Yeah. Kind of an aside, but like which kind of contemporary founders like have you enjoyed like Chang'e was riffing off that people should follow?

Interesting. I I'd say Michael for sure. Anurag from Render is not really open source, but like super helpful.

Really?

Yeah. So like, helped us a lot in in understanding, and telling us that it's okay. Like, you're you're fine. Like, keep going. Like Mhmm.

You know, I think he was super helpful as well. I I'd say these two Mhmm. Primarily. David Kramer from Sentry as well. Think we we loved meeting him.

We Moe, Igor, and I just set him a call.

What did he say? Like, he's the most opinionated guy. So I mean, he'll say that himself. Right?

Yeah. He said it was interesting, basically. Right? Like, we we went to him for fundraising advice, actually. And he's like, guys, just keep doing it until you find money.

Like, it's it's hard.

David Kramer. Yeah.

Legend. Absolute legend. Yeah. Super helpful. We spoke to him a couple times.

Went to him initially for advice. I think the takeaway primarily was you gotta keep putting in the reps. Yeah. And it's hard initially. And people don't believe in you until they do, and then they don't stop believing in you.

And that's how the valley works. And

See, you want people to believe in you when you're in your darker style, virtually. They'll stop believing you once it's already going well.

And and he said something super interesting. He said that once people believe in you and and you hit some sort of escape velocity, you don't necessarily create validation anymore from from external factors, anybody else except your customers. Right? Like, nobody else matters after a point where capital becomes easy to get. It becomes a commodity.

It becomes a you you need the best partner initially until you hit escape velocity and then you hit it or you don't. And then maybe you try another iteration or, basically, grow the company. Right? Like, that Yeah. That's how most companies work.

And, like, David was was really candid in the sense that he shared a lot of nuggets on around how how people raise if they're if they're building a dev tool in in the Valley, but also in the sense that guys just keep putting in the reps.

Don't give up.

Yeah. 100%. Like, there was a point by the way, David Kramer, absolute cold email. Like, nothing else. Hey, David.

We're building this thing and, like, we're in SF and, like, can we speak? And, like, yeah, responds in a couple of minutes. And, like, yeah. Why don't you show up in my office tomorrow? And then Damn.

Yeah. Super like, I can't imagine that happening here, to be honest. Not to be dissing London. Think London's an awesome place. But like, just just just that interaction is it's like fuel.

Right? Like, especially when when when when you don't know what you're doing and you're turning around like a headless chicken. And that that's the that's your most vulnerable point as a company because like you crave validation from anybody around you. Right? Like investors or or customers who could pay Mhmm.

People who can say things or say say say nice or not nice things, basically. So any you're so vulnerable that a good piece of feedback can take you really, really high and like a very bad piece of feedback can take you, and that happened multiple times, by the way. Like, there were days where, like, we would speak to somebody, they they they give us not so great feedback and we'd be like,

And were they, like, user or they were just, like, random person?

I think it was a mix. We we didn't so one good thing, actually, in hindsight is that if a person was relevant to the company, maybe as a user we spoke to, EMs at companies like Snowflake and and Databricks and whatnot. We attended Intracef meetups, you know, great initiative by Vertex, I think, like

Oh, yeah. Shout out, Megan.

Yeah. Shout out. Massive. I think Igor even flew

to was flying.

Right? Flying flew to New York a couple of times. We attended a couple in SF. Like, I think the the the group that they've assembled is great. I think there were a couple in the Convex office, if I'm not wrong, in SF.

Convex, which is ex Dropbox, I think. They've just released Chef, which is super cool as well. It's like their bold. New rapper.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's super cool, by the way. I built, like, a as an aside, I built like a Google Drive alternative in like a Genius. One shot. Yeah. It's crazy.

Like, called it Open Drive.

Wow. It's actually it's

it's out there. Yeah. But I digress. But what I'm trying to say is we found enough people, relevant people, who gave us the right advice at the right time Mhmm. And it kept us afloat.

And the advice wasn't rocket science. Mhmm. It was just to say, keep doing the right things that you're doing, and eventually, the value will give you what you crave. Yeah. It could be capital.

It could be customers, whatever it is, but, like, you gotta keep putting in the reps. And I think we actually believe in the in the loops. Right? Like, I spoke about user loops. I spoke about monetization loops.

There's also funding loops. And, like, there's an iteration even with with with raising money. Who do you speak to? You know? What do investors really care about?

We look we got lucky that we met Brett. Again, Daksh introduced us to to Brett.

Oh, really?

Yeah. From From Greta.

Yeah. Greta.

Great great company. Great guy. Yeah. Great intro as well. And Brett moves super fast.

He thinks like an engineer as well. Yeah. He understands how open source works. He understands the implications that AI will have on DevOps and and our thesis on it. And it was great to chat just as a, you know, a technical chat, basically.

Right? Like, what do people use your tool for? You know? What do you charge for? How are you gonna grow?

And, like, it's super interesting in the sense that it felt like we were talking to another engineer. Mhmm. And the speed at which he moved from a decision perspective as well was was super impressive to us, personally.

Yeah. What is what is that kind

of speed like? Well, Initialize was super fast. We spoke to them on a Friday, I think. Partner call on Monday, decision Tuesday.

Really? Yeah. Wow. That's crazy.

Yeah. I think that level of conviction was extremely, extremely validating and helpful. Yeah. And, yeah, since then, we've we've also grown super fast as well. Amazing.

I think while raising, we had the order of magnitude with maybe 2.5 x lesser daily deployments than we do today. And we'll just continue to grow the open source thing. The the enterprise stuff is coming. It's admittedly slower than we'd like, and I think it will be slower than we'd like for a while. But the open source stuff keeps growing, and we'll keep doing our best there as well.

Yeah. That's super, super cool. Yeah. Damn. Like, what what a what a journey.

Yeah.

It's it's interesting, man. And looking back, right, like, every single, I don't know, iteration, maybe week, you look back and you think about the week, but then you look back at the month and you'll be like, what the hell? And then you look like a like a quarter and you'll be like, oh my god. I genuinely cannot believe I think we're filming this, what, in April? Yeah.

Like, it's crazy. It doesn't feel like April. It feels like I don't know. I'm in 2029 or something. Like, it it just feels like stuff is moving at that speed, especially especially for the last six to twelve months.

It just feels like I think it's a function of how how fast AI is moving as well. Like, you know, MCPs were in the thing like a year ago. Right? Like

For like even like oh, it's like it's like a two months ago, a month ago, wasn't it? Like, even like

I think they released it and and it didn't catch on until somebody made it mainstream.

Oh yeah yeah. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's insane.

And then another thing that I I think we did touch on this before but I think that's something that you guys did like extremely well. And almost that you're almost like notorious for this. I feel like sometimes like people when Digger came up on Hacker News it was like, oh those guys are like, they release a new thing like every week or something. But you were like literally shipping like a new product, launching a launching a product hunt, launching all hackers, everything like once once a week or even more. Yeah.

Like 22 products or something.

Yeah. That was Product hunt? Two years ago, man. It was crazy. That's actually how we stumbled on the open source thing, by way.

Yeah.

It's it's it's so ingrained in us that if we don't launch something, it could be a feature. It could be something. Right? Yeah. It feels like something isn't right.

Like, it feels like we're doing something wrong. Like, why haven't we launched something in the last, you know, how many ever days, weeks, months, whatever? And it helped us a lot in a building cadence of what are we working on? Do users care about it? And I think the loop's philosophy actually comes from there.

Like like like, go and give it to people. Do they care about this? Oh, they don't? Cool. Let's move on to the next thing.

Well, they care about this. Let's dive deeper. And that was like the fork. Yeah. You go a little deeper and you realize, oh, maybe this is a dead end, and then you try something else.

And like yeah. Initially, it was make AWS easier for everyone. Yeah. I think Mohan Igor had a thesis of generating Terraform under the hood, which which actually helped us a lot in the end. Yeah.

Because like Became the

It became the thing.

The expertise. Yeah. I remember that Igor, the thing that I think I take away from like Digger like that I've learned from you guys. It's like, I remember Igor saying like it's like, I I think I mentioned this on the one but like I was like, sort of like working like one day with you guys like a little

bit Yeah.

Back in the day. Yeah. And it was like, okay we're gonna ship something. And Igor was like, we we have to ship something today. And it's like, if we can't do it today, that means it's the wrong thing.

And it's like, we have to

Scope it.

They have to scope it in and we have to just make sure that it's something that we can do today and we're gonna launch it today and we're gonna do the whole thing. Yeah. And it was like really a cool way

to think

of it. Yeah. Maybe it sounds obvious when you say it but it's like Yeah. I think most almost no one works like that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah. It's it's radical and helpful and radical and opinionated and helpful, that way of thinking. That one day is is is become slightly longer now.

Now Yeah. Yeah. This was like This was before we figured it. This was years ago.

Yeah. They're like '22, '23, something like that. '22, I think.

But the open source digger, what you launched with was not probably wasn't the day, but it wasn't like you shipped it really fast. Right?

It was a week. Yeah. I think. Yeah. It was barely worked.

It was a concept mostly. It was something that people could try, but it barely worked. I say this I say it barely worked, but, like, people still used it. People people still liked it. I think, incrementally, what we've done is I spoke about micro personas, and I think as you go up the ladder, right, like, there's there's the absolute tinkerer who hacks on anything that's available.

Give him a nail and he'll start hitting it hitting a I don't know, wall. That kind of guy, a software wall. And that's what I mean, like, a proverbial software wall. But, like, there's there there's the that kind of early adopter and there's a buyer in in PG and E on the top. Right?

Like, an enterprise buyer there. And I think there's about 10,000 layers between those two guys. It's it's generally like, it exists. And you can solve for the next layer in a very short amount of time incrementally. Mhmm.

Right? Like Yeah. Seriously. So that was built for the bottom most layer.

Split like three layers.

It's not It isn't. It's it's way more, I think.

That's what you're saying.

And if you're solving for the next incremental layer, you can scope it down Mhmm. To that person. But I I generally think there are those many like, if there is a 100,000,000 business in the category, it means that there are layers to this business. And the layers are not in the single digits or the double digits. I think there are multiple layers.

10,000 is bit of an exaggeration. It's a

really cool way to think

of it, actually. And and if you work in layers, you can incrementally start focusing on the next minute problem Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That you can scope down and say, okay.

What is the thing that we can solve in a time box manner that this guy's senior Yeah. In his team would would appreciate? Yeah. This guy is a bit of a and and I'm I'm saying this like, this guy's a bit of a hacker. He he he likes cutting corners, but his manager doesn't.

His manager would actually like this one extra thing. Yeah. Yeah. Let's work on that one extra thing. But that guy's manager has four more direct reports.

Yeah. And like, that guy would want something else. But like, that's how you you tend to go upmarket. And I think the best product actually are products which are across layers. You start and then and, you know, in CRMs, HubSpot, similar.

Right? Like like yeah. They started SME. And and you choose your wedge. And in in in open source generally, especially DevTools, you've gotta start at the bottom most layer.

Right? Like, you gotta get an option from there because they're the ones most comfortable using stuff that's broken or that barely works, whatnot. And then you climb up the ladder. The bar's getting higher every day. People are shipping more polished stuff.

People are shipping cool stuff. People are shipping stuff that, you know, can work across layers on day zero almost. But the more incremental you get and there's something I've learned from Igor, to be honest, which just goes back to the scoping, making it a short time frame, getting the next user excited about this thing. It helps because your foundation's solid. Like, you you can you can be rest assured that everybody underneath this guy in the org chart are already happy.

Yeah. Everybody underneath this person isn't gonna be complaining about this. This person's where the box stops right now. From a GDM perspective, it helps to think that way. Yeah.

And maybe above that, you're not the right tool yet. That's okay. You're creating a market, and then then you keep moving. Yeah. That's that's that's how we think about it.

And and and and how we why we think about it this way is because of our past exploits of product and whatnot. Right? It's just because we ship so much that that's one of the only ways we can think in some sense. Right? Like Yeah.

It's a strength and could be a weakness as well. So yeah. I think it's a strength. It's Yeah. We think so too.

Yeah. But Yeah. Yeah.

So now like what's the what's the vision now? Like I guess this is like kind of like you you managed to kind of like you you had some hard times. You realized that you built something great. The traction's growing. You've raised money.

Good investors. Like what's the you're moving to SF as well Yeah. Which I'm sad about. But you know, that's

London's always gonna be like all our families like London. We like London. London's never gonna go away. But coming to the vision, I think a large part of it this this may sound a bit vague, but, like, a large part of it is to make Intra cool again, if that makes sense. It's it's, you know, to ensure that people don't despise it.

It isn't as hard as people think it is. I don't know if you remember, but we had we had this placard that we held in front of Big Ben, Igor and I. It said, AWS need not be hard

Oh, yeah.

Back in the day. Yeah. And that that's still true. That's the premise of infrastructure's code in general. That's the premise of Terraform.

That's the premise of a lot of infra tooling that exists today. But we want people to to love infra. Yeah. And I think nobody goes and hacks on something which like like you would you don't wake like, for example, you don't wake up on a weekend and say, I'm gonna go and try the new compliance offer. Right?

Like Oh, yeah.

That never happens. Right? Yeah. And a large part of infra enterprise infra tooling is like that. Like, dude, it's not something that people do out of love.

It's people do out of necessity. Yeah. And that's that's a that's a user experience thing. Right? Like and a large part of how Diggers work till today, the open source thing, is that people really love using it to deploy Terraform.

Yeah. And non ops engineers like it because, like, it they can they can do stuff and pull requests, and it's all guardrail.

It runs in GitHub Actions. Yeah. It does. Super cool.

Yeah. Yeah. Secure. Nothing leaves your CI. Scalable.

You can reuse your compute. So that's that's thesis behind Yeah. Digger the open source project. So yeah. Man, we wanna make infra cool again.

We want developers to love doing it to love handling infra and actually build stuff that's scalable because, you

know It's hard.

It's hard. Yeah. And I think AI has a very strong play here. Yeah. We have a few prototypes.

Nothing public yet. Hopefully, public by the time we watch this.

Saw a saw a brief preview last night.

Yeah. Yeah. You did? Yeah. Yeah.

Let's see. Let's see. It's very alpha right now, but the possibilities change with every model update and every like, MCPs open up a whole new avenue. And this is with AI specifically. Right?

Like, stuff you couldn't do three months ago, you can do today. Yeah. And there's a way to think about it that, okay, these models are gonna improve enough. Protocols are gonna improve enough that maybe you can dream a heart of the world and like it's still gonna be possible in the next few months. Dream out the world in the sense like you

like you're you're thinking like, I want this and then you can have it. Like, in terms of

You know, interestingly that's already exist. That that that exists. That's a part of the demo you saw yesterday. Like, you you want this and this exists? Exit is possible but asterisk asterisk.

Security.

It could be what you want.

It could be what you want. But it will

but you you need to get to the point.

The manager at PG

and E

is gonna say It

will be

what? The manager like, the the topmost layer that I spoke about? Yeah. It's gonna adopt it, like, later on. But, like, honestly, though, there's there's a there's a whole new like, AI is gonna change how info is done for sure.

Yeah. If anybody knows how, as on today, I'd honestly hand to heart say they're they're lying. Like like, you don't know how reliable they are. You don't know how secure it is. You don't know you don't know what you don't know.

There are so many unknown unknowns, basically. And it's gotta be tried by that hacker hacker persona Mhmm. And and tried and tested and roasted before before it sees the public eye, I think. But, yeah, super excited to to continue growing the open source community. I think we wanna be the de facto solution and the most easiest solution to get started with if you wanna deploy any IAC.

Mhmm. Not just Terraform. Not just Terraform. You can already deploy multiple ICs. You can open you can deploy Open Tofu.

You can use Pulumi with Digger. Mhmm. But, yeah, I'd say any I IAC and any CI for for the open source project. It's currently GitHub Actions, and we have alpha support for GitLab and and Bitbucket pipelines. But, like, the eventual dream is, like, have an orchestrator for infrastructure scored, use it with any CI, with any IAC, and you can safely use it with your team.

And it's gonna have, you know, security and compliance out of the box kind of thing. That's the primary aim and that's the sole aim that we're working on.

And then you can be like, hey, like I built this prototype with one VM and actually I want it to be able to like run on like have like 10 worker vms.

Something like

that. Separate it out. Yeah. And then Yeah. It's gonna change it.

Like you can just talk to it like a like cursor but like, yeah.

Well, I think Igor shared this with you yesterday. Right? Like, it's almost like when cursor's done, bigger starts. And that's that's the that's the aim. It will sound really ambiguous without something to use and try.

So Yeah.

I think it is really helpful to have something people can play with ASAP, and that's what we're working on Yeah. While ensuring that the core engine continues to generate usage and revenue. And it's a hard challenge. Yeah. We are resource tapped, and we're we're we're growing, but, like, we're re still resource trapped, and we will be for a while.

So, yeah, it is what it is. But we're super excited. Like, we wake up every day excited too, you know? Yeah. So Actually,

a question because because you have been so like Yeah. Just been you free. And now, you've raised. Like, who are you gonna hire first?

The the exercise of who we are gonna hire is actually happening as we speak. Yeah. We have this Slack channel like it says cool people we should work with. Added a couple people there recently. But like, yeah, we're still we we need to define problems that need to be solved by teammates Mhmm.

And ensure that roles are split accordingly. We're working on it. We're hiring super soon. We probably are hiring by the time this is out. Okay.

So you can check our website.

But you're gonna hire do you think engineering is the

is the Engineering is the only thing that matters. Yeah. Yeah. I think founder led marketing and sales until, like, much longer. Yeah.

I think it it's a massive learning experience as well. Right? Like, in each loop, learn something else that you can implement in product. And I think that's something that we wanna keep founder led for for the for the near term at least. Mhmm.

So yeah. For sure.

And you're gonna hire someone in SF probably? For sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Get an office. You're going like you're going fully in person.

Yeah. In person five days a week. That's that's I think Igor was super opinionated about this earlier. We agreed. We disagreed.

We agreed. We disagreed. We went back and forth on it. But I think, especially when it's the three of us and it's been like that for a while, really helps when we're in the same room. Yeah.

Just cost of context switching is much lower.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we ship a lot more. Like, just the amount of stuff we ship and, like, the amount of stuff user sees, like, magnitude more than what it is without us being in different rooms. Also, we can course correct super fast. Like, you know, you you don't work on the wrong thing in the silo for for too long. Yeah.

And that helps too.

You gotta be like, hey, like, can you talk later? Oh, yeah. I'm free at

like Yeah. Exactly. Or

I'm like where it's like, let me interrupt.

Yeah. Exactly. And I think it's proverbial remote versus

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's proverbial. There's obviously companies that do really well.

Yeah. And I think it takes a lot of work, handbooks, whatnot, like Yeah. Manuals. For people who want it badly enough, I think some companies do it really well. I think Loops does it well.

I think I think Posthoc does it really well. GitLab does it well. Rail railway. Railway does it well. So I think yeah.

There's a right you either work really hard on that, but it's also it also stems from the personal preference of the OG person deciding that it becomes remote. Like Yeah. I'm assuming that there are reasons why a company x went remote initially and then they scaled

for a lot.

And then they scaled on that foundation in some sense. We are actually default in person first kind of people. Yeah. Yeah. So we scale on top of that Yeah.

In some sense.

Yeah. Super super cool. Alright. One thing I wanted to ask you. So if you like you've been on this journey like four four years?

Yeah. Four years totally. Yeah.

What what would you be saying to yourself like at the beginning? If you could go talk to yourself back then.

Interesting. For myself, I'd say, just focus on the next like if this was a road, focus on the next 10 meters. Have have sight of I think it matters from a vision perspective. It matters from a like, a lot of times we've short stopped short of having the long term we we have had the long term vision, but like, just because we have that long term vision doesn't mean that we can't take a couple of strides elsewhere and then see if it works and come back. So basically, what I'm trying to get at is focus on what's in front of us.

Focus on what I I would say focus on modern what's in front of me and just solve the next problem that exists. Right? Like, incrementally, you will start solving it in the right direction, and it's much easier to course correct as well if you just look at the next 10 meters. Half side of that, but don't really be overly worried of that,

if

that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, step by step is what I'd say. I'd say just focus on the next couple of steps and then and then the next couple of steps and then the next couple of steps, and it helps if you think that way.

It helps. And thinking too much about too thinking too far ahead too early just just gives you the yo yo effect that I spoke about. Oh, euphoria. Wow. This can happen.

Boom. Oh, doomsday. Oh, euphoria. And then, like Yeah. That's that's a bit hard on yourself mentally and physically and, like, affects quality of work as well.

So, yeah, step by step and and and and you will figure it out. And, like, our fundamental way of thinking is is sound, I'd say, as a team. So if we do stuff step by step, I don't see why we wouldn't, you know, get somewhere tangible. Yeah. If that makes sense.

So yeah. Okay.

Wait. Just because I know you think about this stuff a lot. Yeah. Okay. Which companies do you wish you had ownership equity out of DevTools right now?

Very, very good question. You can't say Windsurf just because they're about to be a quiet affix right now.

Super early. Where do you want me to go? Like super Cursor for sure. Yeah. Like Cursor for sure.

Great question. I think I'm also super still super keen on like commercial open source, but non like for an for example, right, like like a resend. Right? Like, it's not open source though, but like it's built on top of new dot email. Oh, no.

Not new dot email. React email. Email. Email. Right?

It's used by but it's a very technical product, but the end user is like a Yeah. Like a like a consumer, if that makes sense. There's there's a new Gmail alternative that I keep seeing called 0.email. Right?

I see.

It's open source. Actual numbers. Yeah. Right? So like cap.so.

Right? Like a Loom alternative. Right? I'm super keen on like technical open source ethos, but end user being anyone. Like, that's my personal opinion.

That's that's what I think about a lot. Infra specifically, I'm glad I have equity in Digger. That's what I'd say. That's what I'd say because super bullish on what we're working on. Browser base is interesting.

I think browser base browser uses is tool use in general and browser browser use specifically is super interesting.

Paul is a beast.

Yeah. Paul is a beast. He's he's been super helpful too, by the way. Yeah. Yeah.

Helped us with a lot of advice and and and was very kind to invite us to to his office as well, and it was just it was great. Sick. But, yeah, I'd say yeah. Companies with an open source ethos dealing with end consumers or anyone, like a Loom alternative or a open source real commercial open source stuff. And that's that's something that I'm super keen on.

I would be super keen on. Or yeah. Stuff which is frontier. Like like, browser users is very hard to define a use case. Right?

Like, it's like, can you imagine browser use being used day to day? Very hard today. But it's so obvious that browser use is gonna be what agents use in six to twelve months down the lane, given how fast things are moving. Right?

Explain browser use. Well,

agents agentically using

You mean a product called brow is there a product called browser? No. No. Oh, browser users are Sorry.

That's the thing. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think there is like Yeah.

That's why thought that was like a Yeah.

I think there is, but Yeah.

But what I was trying source project.

Yeah. What I was trying to get at is browser use in general Yeah. Without it being a product. Yeah. Yeah.

Course. Like, I'm stating the obvious here, but like Yeah. It's great. I think Paul mentioned that VCs were talking about this before when he was in mux even. Right?

Like, we like, couple of years ago saying it's a frontier thing. It's gonna be there, like, ten years down the lane and two years down the lane. It actually exists. And, like like, that's how timelines have shrunk. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think TLDR, browser based cursor frontier stuff, I I I I'd I would have been I'd be super helpful. Like, if I had a chance, I'd I'd love equity there. Yeah. And and any any consumer focused commercial open source company. Mhmm.

And still be keen on understanding what the actual OG SaaS company is making as well. Right? Like, how much should Loom sell for? Like, the how much is Loom worth if there's a Loom alternative? Right?

Like, think there are some some

Do Loom sold for, like,

close to a billion. Yeah. $9.80.

And then the guy because the guy wrote the article about like

I I read yesterday that he's become an intern at a mechanical engineering company.

Yeah. That's

He's he's a hacker, man. I love his mentality. Yeah. I don't know him as a person, but I've read a lot of his writing, and I genuinely think the guy's cracked Yeah. In a good sense.

Right? Like, he's he's a cracked guy, cracked engineer. What you see is what you get in some sense.

Yeah. So Yeah. I respect like, I saw a lot of people like kind of dunking that someone would say that they had all this money and they weren't rich. And people were like, how out of touch can you be? Yeah.

But it's like, he he's literally proven the point that

Yeah.

Exactly. Money is not ever like he's literally making that point Yeah. That it actually is not the most important thing for like being having purpose and stuff.

Yeah, man. I think I really one thing I've I've come to admire is honesty. Right? Like, it's it's super like, it's also because it it it builds trust in in the reader or the person you're speaking or whatever. But secondly, right, like, you're just stating fact as they are, and and that's should be obvious to the to to layperson that that's how life should be, but, like, it's a bit of an outlier scenario here.

But, yeah, massive respect for what he built. Think even they had a massively resilient story initially. Right? Like, they maxed out their credit cards and whatnot. I think he's he spoke about it extensively in multiple podcasts.

Yeah. And and, you know, they worked really hard and then they raised some money and then they got they they pivoted multiple times and then they stumbled upon Loop because users used a tool that needed to be used a certain way in a different way. And like, they found out, oh, Loop could exist as a thing. Right? Like, that's the that's their story.

But like, maybe because it resonates because it's super similar to ours in some But yeah. It's interesting.

Yeah. I think honesty is actually like, I I always think this because because obviously with the skin in DevTools like Yeah. It's the interesting stories are the ones where people are honest because it's not easy. And you know, you can you can obviously paint things in like this magical picture and

you're just a

genius and that. It but it's it's not interesting. And I think of like the people that I follow on Twitter and stuff like the most of the one like let's say for example like Peter levels. Right? Like I think people find him interesting because he's extremely honest.

Yeah. You may not agree with him. Yeah. But he'll say what he thinks.

Exactly.

And it's like I think most of the people even like like a Paul Graham or someone like he's happy to say like what he actually thinks. And people like that. Yeah. But it's it's so hard to

Exactly.

To get in the habit of actually saying what you think.

It's interesting. It's a very interesting discussion. I think speaking like that is is crazy. Like, it's a privilege, first of all, to be able to say that publicly. Yeah.

But but but in my ideal end state, I I'd actually be super keen to to to be as candid as I want to be on the Internet. There are multiple factors not related to anything else that that that that we've spoken here that prevents me personally from doing that. But like, man, like, I love reading level you're a 100% correct. Like, you look you look at a PG, you look at the levels, and you're like, man, they're talking like how I would talk to somebody across the table.

And It doesn't feel like they're like presenting something. They're just like saying what they actually think.

Yeah. Absolutely. There's no layers Absolutely. I I I fully fully fully endorse.

Yeah. I think David Kramer does that.

Yeah.

Extreme level. Yeah. I think Mitchell speaks pretty pretty like honestly on his views and things. Yeah. And that's like really thing really refreshing.

Yeah. I agree. Massive respect for Mitchell as well. I think as a team, we respect him a lot.

Yeah.

I think yeah.

Yeah. It's it's cool. I I I think like people would get so much like I I think a lot of dev tools would their content and everything would just do so much better if they were just honest.

It's it's best marketers are the like, you look at you you look at like a greptile today. Right? There are so many by the way, greptile is one of the tools that if I could, would kinda Oh, yeah. Know? Yeah.

Like, there's so many today. There's like a CodeRabbit. There's a greptile. There's like dime a dozen. Like, a a code review AI tool has become a commodity.

Yeah. Right? Like, you can differentiate on features, whatnot, but, like, it's a commodity in a good sense because people are willing to pay for it and, like, you can actually charge for it. It's useful. Commodity Commodity is not necessarily bad.

That's also another learning by the way. Like, you can have your edge with having commodity piece of software. Like, you can have a ketchup company and still make a ton of money making ketchup and differentiate on branding, differentiate on whatever. Right? Like, it's it's a different discussion though.

Like, you know, a separate discussion. What I was trying to get at though is where where were we? Like, I lost my train of thought.

We're just absolutely talking, Robert. Yeah. We're talking about we're talking about honesty.

Yeah. Greptiles marketing. Greptiles marketing is what I wanted to speak about. Daksh is super honest Yeah. About stuff he writes about.

He wrote about fundraising. He wrote about branding. He wrote about energy drinks.

Hours and stuff.

Yeah. Long hours.

He got railed on the long hours.

Yeah. But but but, yeah, about even Dell did that recently. Dell is this software company, and, actually, we work with them. It's crazy. Right?

Like but long hours to be stupid. Like, you work as long as you wanna Yeah. As a company. And I think you that's my opinion. Right?

Like, work long if you want to. Work short if you want to. Did stuff get done?

That's the choice.

Right? Like, did stuff get done at the end of the day? You do it in a minute. You do it in an hour. You do it in a day.

It's up to you. Right? Like

It's the wrong optimization. Yeah.

And it's it's crazy. Right? Like, it's it's bait it's it's rage bait at this point. Yeah. And and if people are using that to generate usage or revenue for their product, I'm all for it, man.

Like, go for it. Like Yeah. If that is helping you generate more leads or revenue or, I don't know, page visits or whatever, kudos. Like Yeah. I think it generally is rage bait at this point.

Like Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I could tell, oh my god. You need to work 9967 or something, and then people are gonna be this guy's crazy. This guy's crazy. But what's he building?

And then and then then you filter for the right people, basically. That's that's how a lot a lot of people are using it. Personally, I think you do you and measure by outcomes, not by input Yeah. Some sense. But I think that's the ethos of our company as a whole.

Large part of what I think about culture comes from ECORE, and he's very opinionated about it and has strong opinions, which I kinda agree with. But yeah. What I was trying to get at is that Greptile has crazy good marketing, which is what you see is what you get, and you kinda trust the tool more. Yeah. I can actually go out and say, like, I trust Greptile as the OG OG code review tool.

We have two. We have two AI code reviews on every on every PR.

The review, Trevor.

Yeah. They do, actually. Think you really We have code habit, and then Kreptile thumbs ups that. Really? Yeah.

It's crazy, man. Like, we have two AI code reviews and one human review and then yeah. It's crazy. We have two because one is free for open source companies,

and we're like, why not? Like CodeRabbit.

CodeRabbit's free for open source. Reptile is too, but if you're commercial open source, you gotta pay for it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

But, yeah, massive respect for Daksh for the intro and for the product that he's built. I think he's he's the OG, man. Like

He's a cool guy. Yeah. He's a very cool guy.

Yeah.

Dude, super fun.

Likewise, man.

Yep. I'm gonna miss you in SF. Hopefully, I'm gonna come out.

Yeah. Please do. Yeah. Come to our office. Work out of our office.

By the hopefully, we have one by then. Hopefully, all legal, compliance, immigration, everything's done by then.

Yeah. Maybe you're you're still allowed to work with Nicholas.

This is London, guys. This is London's not that

bad. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. So and if people are using Terraform or any IAC as we established Yeah.

They should use Dagger.

100%. And we love your feedback. Please roast it. We wanna get better incrementally as quickly as possible.

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. Thanks, Opal. And thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks, Jack. Pleasure.