WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.290 --> 00:00:01.950 Eric Karkovack: Hey everyone. 00:00:01.950 --> 00:00:04.770 Welcome to another edition of the WP Minute. 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:09.810 I'm your host, Eric Kovac, and today I have a very special guest, Jake Goldman, 00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:14.840 the, founder and president of 10 Up, a very well-known WordPress agency. 00:00:15.180 --> 00:00:16.680 Jake, welcome and thanks for coming. 00:00:18.210 --> 00:00:18.659 Thank you. 00:00:18.659 --> 00:00:21.839 that, introduction is a good lead and I guess for our conversation later, I'm 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:25.499 not sure I go by actually, it's what I go by these days, but, that's the news. 00:00:26.219 --> 00:00:26.579 That's right. 00:00:26.579 --> 00:00:29.279 We've got some big news to, to spill on that. 00:00:29.789 --> 00:00:34.489 But, I, before we, we really dig into where you're at now, I did want to talk 00:00:34.489 --> 00:00:36.259 to you a little bit about your origins. 00:00:36.539 --> 00:00:38.399 you as the founder of 10 Up. 00:00:38.819 --> 00:00:42.690 Can you tell me a little bit about how you got started with 10 Up and what 00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:44.879 the mission was back in those days? 00:00:46.019 --> 00:00:46.410 Jake Goldman: Sure. 00:00:46.410 --> 00:00:51.949 So, 10 up started in back in 2011, which feels incredibly long ago now. 00:00:51.949 --> 00:00:54.429 Very different world, than we live in 2025. 00:00:54.809 --> 00:00:58.589 at the time I had been in agencies, professional services for the better 00:00:58.589 --> 00:01:02.829 part of, you know, really if you go back to including part-time roles for over a 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:05.139 decade at that point, it spent at that 0.4 00:01:05.139 --> 00:01:08.259 or five years in management roles and services businesses focused on making 00:01:08.259 --> 00:01:10.210 websites focused on digital experiences. 00:01:10.449 --> 00:01:14.229 I'd sort of long had the itch to start a business, start my own practice. 00:01:14.559 --> 00:01:17.309 Although, as I said in many different places, I felt that it was useful 00:01:17.309 --> 00:01:18.479 to have that experience first. 00:01:18.479 --> 00:01:21.989 Learn from others, have mentors circa 2011. 00:01:21.989 --> 00:01:24.929 The sort of short version is a little bit of a falling out with this company 00:01:24.929 --> 00:01:26.009 that I was working with at the time. 00:01:26.009 --> 00:01:27.239 Just in terms of alignment with that. 00:01:27.269 --> 00:01:30.809 founder's vision, having been his first hire, helped having helped him build that 00:01:30.869 --> 00:01:33.239 team up to about 18 to 20 as a sort of. 00:01:33.735 --> 00:01:35.295 Providence and Boston based firm. 00:01:35.615 --> 00:01:39.954 and I, was focused on open source and a new, kind of a new breed of 00:01:39.954 --> 00:01:41.994 CMSs and solutions for our customers. 00:01:42.414 --> 00:01:44.994 I started going to Word Camp, started getting involved in the WordPress 00:01:44.994 --> 00:01:48.654 community, started using that platform for some customers as an economic choice, 00:01:48.734 --> 00:01:50.774 succinctly, sort of fell in love with it, fell in love with the community. 00:01:50.774 --> 00:01:53.634 He thought it was going, going big places, gonna do big things 00:01:54.054 --> 00:01:55.195 as the platform was growing up. 00:01:55.195 --> 00:01:55.494 And so. 00:01:55.839 --> 00:01:59.819 Start a 10 up with a vision of, as a, at least as a starting point being, you 00:01:59.819 --> 00:02:01.439 know, I think what you'd call an agency. 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.439 Businesses like the best integrator, the best implementer of WordPress, 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.770 particularly for customers looking to more enterprise level implementation, 00:02:07.770 --> 00:02:11.930 looking for customers that are, you know, brand name, larger businesses 00:02:11.930 --> 00:02:15.050 looking to spend, you know, at least even those early days, at least five 00:02:15.050 --> 00:02:17.000 figures, if not six figures in some cases. 00:02:17.945 --> 00:02:21.195 On projects, lied to myself and said I would sort of take a break for managing 00:02:21.195 --> 00:02:24.045 people for a little while, for a year or so and just have some contractors by 00:02:24.045 --> 00:02:27.375 the end of year one bad at saying no to good opportunities come from our network. 00:02:27.375 --> 00:02:30.195 We had about seven or eight people and the rest was history. 00:02:31.575 --> 00:02:34.095 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I mean, you, you have had a lot of success it 00:02:34.095 --> 00:02:36.885 seems like, in that enterprise area, and I was just kind of wondering. 00:02:37.790 --> 00:02:39.260 How did that go in the early days? 00:02:39.260 --> 00:02:42.440 Because WordPress, of course, started out as a blogging platform. 00:02:43.040 --> 00:02:46.040 A lot of folks, and, you know, in the corporate world may not have 00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:50.210 known about it as, as, you know, its potential for, for doing enterprise. 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.610 What kind of challenges did you face in doing that? 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:57.780 Jake Goldman: I mean, I think that I, feel fortunate in the sense that 00:02:57.780 --> 00:02:59.850 I, it was just the right moment. 00:02:59.850 --> 00:03:04.050 So I didn't, you know, by design, I didn't wanna start an agency that 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:06.270 was in a fully mature, fully baked. 00:03:06.670 --> 00:03:11.170 Space where like if you did it seven years later, eight years later, where press 00:03:11.170 --> 00:03:14.625 will established, whether every enterprise wants to use it or not, it's well known. 00:03:15.055 --> 00:03:19.165 well adopted, you know, running on, you know, massive numbers of not just 00:03:19.165 --> 00:03:23.695 like small blogs and website, but like business websites, corporate websites, 00:03:23.695 --> 00:03:25.015 at least for part of their stack. 00:03:25.165 --> 00:03:29.905 I think my position was, my strategy was to join a platform that I 00:03:29.905 --> 00:03:31.375 thought already had some early hooks. 00:03:31.375 --> 00:03:34.195 There was customers, there was buyers, there was opportunity to win business, 00:03:34.345 --> 00:03:36.085 but was at the very early stage. 00:03:36.355 --> 00:03:38.995 If it's growth cycle, because that's an opportunity to come in, there was 00:03:38.995 --> 00:03:42.685 an opportunity to come in to establish yourself as sort of like a leading 00:03:43.345 --> 00:03:45.505 early entering provider in the space. 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.110 Establish a missing foothold to be sort of like an agency of record or 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:53.080 one of the most trusted names in the space before it gets overcrowded. 00:03:53.320 --> 00:03:56.980 So you're right to say that it wasn't like fully immersed in enterprise 00:03:56.980 --> 00:03:59.710 in the way that it went over the ensuing decade, but I would also 00:03:59.710 --> 00:04:02.860 say that was more advantage than disadvantage for the long term strategy. 00:04:03.070 --> 00:04:06.730 It did circuit 2011, which is why I started the business, already have 00:04:06.730 --> 00:04:08.020 some entrance in that space now. 00:04:08.320 --> 00:04:10.810 They were mostly what I would say and we can haggle over 00:04:10.810 --> 00:04:12.070 the definition of enterprise. 00:04:12.215 --> 00:04:15.155 They're mostly, what I would say was sort of mid to large size businesses, 00:04:15.155 --> 00:04:18.335 maybe not the largest corporations in the world, was with one big exception, 00:04:18.335 --> 00:04:21.544 which is it was already starting to get quite a bit of adoption and interest 00:04:21.544 --> 00:04:23.585 in the enterprise space for publishing. 00:04:24.105 --> 00:04:28.225 so as a blogging sort of new centered platform, you already had, frankly 00:04:28.225 --> 00:04:31.465 some of like the largest news publications in the world, even in 2011. 00:04:31.465 --> 00:04:34.875 Looking at it as a great economical, at the time ahead of its. 00:04:35.260 --> 00:04:39.200 ahead of its time, user experience for publishing articles and stories. 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:44.810 So good early customer base in median publishing all so you could call the 00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:49.250 enterprise buyer already adopting or looking at actively adopting WordPress. 00:04:49.310 --> 00:04:55.790 Good early entrants in mid to mid to larger size businesses, but also 00:04:55.790 --> 00:04:58.430 early enough in its lifecycle that you could grow with the platform as 00:04:58.430 --> 00:04:59.840 it expanded and got more adoption. 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.660 In terms of like challenges with that? 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:05.510 I mean, you know, it had its reputation of being a bit more of a blogging 00:05:05.510 --> 00:05:11.850 platform in some quarters and you know, I think we had early pioneers with things 00:05:11.850 --> 00:05:14.700 like Drupal or you could even argue Linux or I don't know, that like open 00:05:14.700 --> 00:05:17.430 source in 2011 had the same reticence. 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:22.150 I felt that a lot, like before I started the company in 2004, 2005, 2006, I felt 00:05:22.150 --> 00:05:25.210 there was a lot of skepticism about what is this kooky, communist thing 00:05:25.210 --> 00:05:27.220 where we give away our source code. 00:05:27.270 --> 00:05:28.860 but I feel like by 2011. 00:05:29.415 --> 00:05:31.665 That was in the, that was sort of in the background. 00:05:31.665 --> 00:05:35.615 It was more about, you know, whether it showed up with the kind of teams 00:05:35.615 --> 00:05:40.685 and businesses and capabilities and deeper taxonomy and content management 00:05:40.685 --> 00:05:43.535 capabilities that a large enterprise would expect from a bigger platform. 00:05:43.565 --> 00:05:43.595 Eric Karkovack: Okay. 00:05:44.405 --> 00:05:46.535 Yeah, I mean, as you say that, that point. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.050 Linux was very well spread up throughout the corporate world 00:05:51.050 --> 00:05:54.980 and open source, you know, was definitely a thing at that point. 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:59.600 So not necessarily a new concept to these companies, it was just maybe one more 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.240 tool then I guess coming online for them. 00:06:02.870 --> 00:06:03.530 Jake Goldman: Yes. 00:06:04.550 --> 00:06:08.640 Eric Karkovack: So as part of, of 10 UPS reputation here with, within the 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:13.110 WordPress community, I mean, you've had some, I mean, obviously the big enterprise 00:06:13.110 --> 00:06:17.870 clients, You know, if folks don't know, you, worked on the White house.gov 00:06:17.870 --> 00:06:22.770 site in the, Biden administration, which I cannot think of a more high pressure 00:06:22.770 --> 00:06:25.140 situation for any agency to deal with. 00:06:25.539 --> 00:06:29.849 but then you also release some nice plugins that you, still maintain in the 00:06:29.849 --> 00:06:35.309 community, like Last Press, safe, SVG, I know you've got, classified, right now. 00:06:35.849 --> 00:06:37.979 That's, an AI focused plugin. 00:06:38.339 --> 00:06:43.019 how, how does that balance for you giving back these, you know, free plugins 00:06:43.019 --> 00:06:46.299 that you're, you're maintaining still for the community and kind of, you 00:06:46.299 --> 00:06:48.789 know, building your name there as well? 00:06:49.159 --> 00:06:53.249 at the lower level, like at the freelancer level as opposed to just the, you 00:06:53.249 --> 00:06:56.749 know, the, the, the big wigs in the, white House and, and places like that. 00:06:57.925 --> 00:06:59.095 Jake Goldman: I mean, there's a few things to say there. 00:06:59.095 --> 00:07:04.045 I mean, I think, I mean, know that the, it, we generalize it or hazard, 00:07:04.045 --> 00:07:06.865 but the, the quote unquote big wigs aren't necessarily finding classify or 00:07:06.865 --> 00:07:09.245 certainly not safe SVG, on their own. 00:07:09.275 --> 00:07:10.385 But I mean, there's a few things to say there. 00:07:10.385 --> 00:07:13.475 One, the extensions that we pour most of our investment into, which is not 00:07:13.535 --> 00:07:15.095 like safe SVG, which is a pretty. 00:07:15.830 --> 00:07:18.950 Useful, but very specific sort of micro plugin. 00:07:19.130 --> 00:07:21.830 But things like our, I think of our flagship plugins as things 00:07:21.830 --> 00:07:25.040 like ElasticPress, connecting Elasticsearch to WordPress for better 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:29.120 search performance and perform in general querying performance and 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.680 like smarter, you know, smarter, like cross content recommendations. 00:07:32.710 --> 00:07:35.890 Things like distributor that solve, pushing and sharing content between 00:07:35.890 --> 00:07:39.250 multiple sites in a sort of SEO safe in a very intuitive way. 00:07:39.790 --> 00:07:42.580 You mentioned classify certainly one of our big flagship plugs in the moment, 00:07:42.580 --> 00:07:44.680 bringing AI technologies into WordPress. 00:07:45.175 --> 00:07:47.995 I don't actually think those are necessarily extensions that are 00:07:47.995 --> 00:07:49.615 designed to appeal to the freelancer. 00:07:49.615 --> 00:07:51.925 Working on a couple small business sites, most of them are not gonna buy 00:07:51.925 --> 00:07:54.295 Elasticsearch or that kind of integration. 00:07:54.295 --> 00:07:57.835 Most of 'em are not thinking about multiple websites sharing content. 00:07:58.115 --> 00:07:59.795 maybe they're gonna tinker with, ai. 00:07:59.895 --> 00:08:02.415 but you also have to have like chat GPD pro subscriptions and all 00:08:02.445 --> 00:08:04.905 the rest to be able to really take full advantage of that extension. 00:08:05.305 --> 00:08:08.095 they're really extensions targeted at the kind of buyer that we're looking for. 00:08:08.095 --> 00:08:09.325 So I don't know that we think of like. 00:08:09.820 --> 00:08:14.260 The optimal person that we see as like the adopter of these extensions as a a 00:08:14.260 --> 00:08:18.640 small freelancer as opposed to maybe a developer inside those large enterprises, 00:08:18.820 --> 00:08:22.930 somebody responsible for tasked with a problem of, I've got 10 magazines, or 00:08:22.930 --> 00:08:26.620 I've got 30 websites in my businesses that only need to share privacy policy, 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:29.170 and it shouldn't be so difficult to easily update across all of them. 00:08:29.380 --> 00:08:31.240 It's the developers working in those kind of businesses. 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.090 The technical leads that are researching good solutions are being asked, how can 00:08:34.090 --> 00:08:37.750 I use ai but then find these extensions and do have influence in that space. 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:42.520 At the same time, I would also say there I, I very much have a rising tide lifts 00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:48.160 all boats kind of philosophy, which is why these extensions do primarily target. 00:08:48.535 --> 00:08:52.345 As a, as its primary audience, you know, influencers and developers and 00:08:52.345 --> 00:08:56.815 larger businesses, and B, authentically help us solve problems for our clients 00:08:56.875 --> 00:09:00.325 without having to do it over and over and over again for every customer. 00:09:00.415 --> 00:09:04.615 The third avenue here is like having a good set of AI solutions that are 00:09:04.615 --> 00:09:08.005 open and accessible and can show people how to do it available to the 00:09:08.005 --> 00:09:09.445 entire community from the smallest. 00:09:09.985 --> 00:09:14.155 Freelancer to the technically savvy blogger who has one website to the largest 00:09:14.215 --> 00:09:18.655 develop, you know, companies in the world with developers, makes all of us better. 00:09:18.955 --> 00:09:22.105 You know, just to pick on that example and maybe be a little dramatic in how 00:09:22.105 --> 00:09:25.135 I express it, if WordPress doesn't have good integrations and good solutions 00:09:25.135 --> 00:09:27.835 for, how do I bring AI into my content editing and my content workflow 00:09:27.835 --> 00:09:32.215 experience, that entire platform's not gonna be very compelling or very, 00:09:32.315 --> 00:09:33.305 what's the word I'm looking for? 00:09:33.335 --> 00:09:33.905 competitive. 00:09:34.590 --> 00:09:35.460 in the coming years. 00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:38.580 So I think by putting out solutions that solve hard problems that we're gonna use 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:40.110 anyways, we need them for our clients. 00:09:40.110 --> 00:09:40.710 In any case. 00:09:41.175 --> 00:09:45.785 That help us find developers, decision makers, technology, buyers 00:09:46.025 --> 00:09:49.595 inside, mostly larger companies and more complex organizations. 00:09:49.925 --> 00:09:53.585 And on top of that, helps the entire ecosystem solve hard problems, make 00:09:53.585 --> 00:09:57.435 WordPress look better, and make WordPress a more compelling option, for businesses. 00:09:57.495 --> 00:09:58.605 You know, it only, it only. 00:09:58.680 --> 00:09:59.790 Makes all of us better. 00:10:01.680 --> 00:10:01.740 Eric Karkovack: Yeah. 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:04.200 So that makes a lot of sense. 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:06.810 I mean, we're talking about WordPress and ai. 00:10:06.810 --> 00:10:09.540 I mean, and we'll get to that in a little bit, but I mean, yeah, I, I 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:13.620 have to imagine that's going to be the expectation moving forward for so many 00:10:14.280 --> 00:10:18.360 companies at all levels that we're gonna have to have some sort of AI integration. 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:22.510 So building those tools now, makes a lot of sense and hopefully that, you 00:10:22.510 --> 00:10:26.260 know, keeps WordPress growing, keeps it as a viable option in the market. 00:10:26.755 --> 00:10:30.475 Jake Goldman: Every person that builds WordPress sites should have 00:10:30.475 --> 00:10:36.625 some answer when a customer says, what are you doing to integrate ai? 00:10:36.625 --> 00:10:37.915 Or How are you using ai? 00:10:38.335 --> 00:10:40.735 And there's obviously like the technical answer in terms of like building 00:10:40.735 --> 00:10:43.945 the website, but also an answer for, I'm putting content in here, I'm 00:10:43.945 --> 00:10:46.135 creating pages, I'm creating images. 00:10:46.525 --> 00:10:48.025 How are you putting it in my CMS? 00:10:48.175 --> 00:10:51.085 And I hope that for some of them classified gives an answer that 00:10:51.085 --> 00:10:55.145 will, satisfy even please those buyers as opposed to them having 00:10:55.145 --> 00:10:59.675 a moment where they might pause and say, the best you've got is. 00:11:00.290 --> 00:11:03.320 Like a couple of like title things and Yoast or something like that 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.110 is all you can bring to the table, which might make them pause and say, 00:11:06.110 --> 00:11:08.510 wait a minute, is WordPress even a platform that's ready for the future? 00:11:08.510 --> 00:11:09.950 Do I need to go look at another option? 00:11:10.370 --> 00:11:13.460 And when people make that decision and say, we're not gonna go with WordPress, 00:11:13.520 --> 00:11:16.220 even though we do more than WordPress, to be clear again, good segue into 00:11:16.220 --> 00:11:19.370 later, that hurts us as something that's very invested in that ecosystem. 00:11:19.370 --> 00:11:20.210 Hurts all of us. 00:11:20.510 --> 00:11:22.370 Lemme look down the road in two, three years. 00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:27.000 Eric Karkovack: So I do want to get back to, one of the reasons you're here today 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:29.810 is, you're part of the, fueled family now. 00:11:30.270 --> 00:11:35.010 you merged with them back in 2023, and I was wondering how did that come about and 00:11:35.610 --> 00:11:37.260 how long did that take to come together? 00:11:37.260 --> 00:11:42.840 Like what made you decide that this was the, the right thing to do with 10 up? 00:11:44.250 --> 00:11:46.280 Jake Goldman: Yeah, I, I, I wrote a whole post about it. 00:11:46.280 --> 00:11:47.870 They put in the show notes as well. 00:11:47.870 --> 00:11:52.220 At the time, I think the, the headlines there were, I mean, there was a, 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:56.690 there was a few sort of factors that converged, I think when I thought 00:11:56.690 --> 00:11:59.960 about what it meant to kept scaling 10 up as a business, hitting, you 00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:04.250 know, having, you know, breaking through $45 million in revenue a year. 00:12:04.700 --> 00:12:10.370 There was, part of it was as a, as the like controlling owner of the business. 00:12:10.835 --> 00:12:12.845 What would that role look like? 00:12:13.235 --> 00:12:15.665 What would it mean to keep scaling and keep growing the company 00:12:15.665 --> 00:12:18.245 and providing more opportunity for everybody inside of it? 00:12:18.905 --> 00:12:21.995 And I, again, I'm, I'm being a little bit overly simplistic to make the point 00:12:21.995 --> 00:12:25.745 concisely, but I think that job, when you start going through upwards of $50 million 00:12:25.745 --> 00:12:28.870 in revenue, involves a lot of work that has to do either with your own m and a. 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.710 In terms of finding businesses that you want to bring into your fold, it frankly 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:38.480 becomes more legalistic in terms of like risk aversion and, you know, different 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.540 kind, sometimes a different kind of talent that things they can chase after. 00:12:42.030 --> 00:12:46.030 you as a business it becomes more, about financial instruments and vehicles to 00:12:46.030 --> 00:12:48.730 invest in different kinds of growth, the different kinds of capacity. 00:12:49.375 --> 00:12:53.695 Not, you know, things I could, you know, some faith in myself, things I could 00:12:53.695 --> 00:12:58.075 muscle through, maybe things that really made me excited about being the owner 00:12:58.075 --> 00:13:01.705 and being a very engaged, very involved owner, which is the only kind of ownership 00:13:01.705 --> 00:13:03.450 I know how to, how to own kind of owner. 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:04.140 I know how to be. 00:13:04.635 --> 00:13:07.665 Not things that got me terribly excited, not that made motivated 00:13:07.665 --> 00:13:11.535 and, and frankly, more to the point beside my own selfishness, not as 00:13:11.535 --> 00:13:14.895 effective as I thought potentially other buyers investors could be in 00:13:14.895 --> 00:13:16.915 helping the team, achieve those ends. 00:13:17.255 --> 00:13:19.325 so I think one factor was what am I good at? 00:13:19.355 --> 00:13:19.985 What do I enjoy doing? 00:13:19.985 --> 00:13:20.675 What am I good at? 00:13:20.675 --> 00:13:22.835 Who's, what is the best kind of like ownership and investment 00:13:22.835 --> 00:13:25.115 structure to help this team be able to keep growing and keep being 00:13:25.415 --> 00:13:26.885 successful at a very different scale? 00:13:27.795 --> 00:13:28.545 that it's at today. 00:13:28.915 --> 00:13:32.995 I think the second factor, and maybe it's related is I, I genuinely believed 00:13:32.995 --> 00:13:37.435 part of growing, part of creating safety for this business, was, you 00:13:37.435 --> 00:13:41.485 know, is diversifying, I've said it forever, not being a one trick pony and 00:13:41.515 --> 00:13:44.095 as a business in terms of the platform or technologies that you work at. 00:13:44.095 --> 00:13:45.565 That's not a new thing that I've said. 00:13:45.565 --> 00:13:50.395 That's, you know, again, maybe a very fitting segue here, Ted UP was not 00:13:50.395 --> 00:13:52.975 just WordPress, but we were about 85. 00:13:53.725 --> 00:13:56.845 Percent WordPress in terms of our projects. 00:13:56.845 --> 00:13:59.170 And, I, I know the word carries a negative connotation. 00:13:59.170 --> 00:14:01.510 I don't really mean it with a negative connotation, but I kind of feel like 00:14:01.510 --> 00:14:03.850 we were typecast as being WordPress. 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:06.670 Like I could go to conferences with the biggest agencies and 00:14:06.670 --> 00:14:10.420 shops, and many of them, you know, would be familiar with telepathy. 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:14.220 The almost, you know, the blessing and the curse is the almost like reflex reaction. 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:15.660 Oh, the WordPress agency. 00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:16.740 Right. 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:17.820 So I, I found that. 00:14:18.135 --> 00:14:22.965 The journey of trying to authentically both from a market positioning, expand 00:14:22.965 --> 00:14:29.355 on that in terms of how we're known, and the ability to sort of like move as 00:14:29.355 --> 00:14:33.285 fast as I would want to, to be able to make sure that we're better diversified 00:14:33.285 --> 00:14:35.865 as a business in our capabilities was just something that would happen much 00:14:35.865 --> 00:14:38.805 faster through m and a than it was going to happen through trying to do 00:14:38.805 --> 00:14:40.615 it, independently and autonomously. 00:14:41.095 --> 00:14:44.125 You know, and I always think about the future and think about, you know, 00:14:44.125 --> 00:14:47.995 I've been doing this for 20 years, running an agency for 13, 14 years. 00:14:47.995 --> 00:14:52.465 I'm very mindful of like what kind of like ownership structure for the business makes 00:14:52.465 --> 00:14:54.415 it more sound and secure going forward. 00:14:54.415 --> 00:14:57.805 And you know, there are other ways we could have other options we could have 00:14:57.805 --> 00:15:03.075 pursued to, Mitigate, like sort of the one person get hits by a bus situation. 00:15:03.135 --> 00:15:06.015 but again, looking at a bunch of options at the table, to me the optimal one 00:15:06.015 --> 00:15:09.165 would've been one that also scratched the prior two, which is, which is new 00:15:09.165 --> 00:15:12.765 kinds of like leadership and investors that know how to use some of these tools 00:15:12.765 --> 00:15:17.695 to accelerate growth at our size and being able to accelerate, sort of the 00:15:17.815 --> 00:15:19.615 diversification of our services as a team. 00:15:21.115 --> 00:15:24.685 Eric Karkovack: So Fueld, as far as I know, is really more about mobile 00:15:24.685 --> 00:15:26.185 apps and product design, right? 00:15:26.185 --> 00:15:29.275 So how did that fit in with your vision? 00:15:29.465 --> 00:15:33.845 was that to the, you know, the vision to be more of a, a full service 00:15:34.445 --> 00:15:38.885 company that, that could take a, a product from conception all the way to 00:15:38.945 --> 00:15:42.545 the Great enterprise website to sell the product or promote the product? 00:15:43.475 --> 00:15:44.135 Jake Goldman: Yes. 00:15:44.135 --> 00:15:46.055 I think the, the un nuanced. 00:15:46.555 --> 00:15:49.855 But kind of hits the nail on the head expression that I think our, you know, our 00:15:49.855 --> 00:15:52.895 current CEO friend of mine, named Justin. 00:15:53.405 --> 00:15:55.895 I think the way that he put it when we were talking through like later 00:15:55.895 --> 00:15:59.135 stages of like, you know, let's make this happen, let's do this transaction, 00:15:59.135 --> 00:16:04.925 is I think he said, I think all of our customers need your services, 00:16:04.985 --> 00:16:06.545 which would like your services. 00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:09.420 And I strongly suspect that a good number of the kind of customers you 00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:12.300 work with would benefit from our services, and that's really kind of, 00:16:12.300 --> 00:16:14.850 in some ways it's simplistic, but it's a very succinct way of expressing it, 00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:17.700 which is yes, we all had customers and enterprises that have more than 00:16:18.150 --> 00:16:20.340 WordPress websites or more than just apps. 00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:24.210 We want to be able to provide grow within those businesses. 00:16:24.210 --> 00:16:24.990 We want to be able to. 00:16:25.545 --> 00:16:27.925 To do more, with all of those companies. 00:16:27.975 --> 00:16:31.395 so yeah, it is effectively rounding it out so we can provide more solutions, 00:16:31.395 --> 00:16:34.545 be more fully rounded as a business compete for the biggest engagements, 00:16:34.545 --> 00:16:37.695 which, which let's be clear, the biggest engagements out there and like the 00:16:37.695 --> 00:16:41.985 bigger services market are not come build a mobile app for me, are come 00:16:41.985 --> 00:16:43.875 building WordPress website for me. 00:16:44.190 --> 00:16:48.090 The biggest opportunities are let's complete, you know, companies that 00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:51.480 are more, you know, not, you know, not just companies and public 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.670 sector, works all the rest that are saying like, we need to completely 00:16:54.670 --> 00:16:55.900 rethink how we're doing digital. 00:16:55.900 --> 00:16:57.220 We need to rethink our product strategy. 00:16:57.220 --> 00:16:58.990 We need to think, rethink online engagement. 00:16:59.590 --> 00:17:03.550 I don't know that for either company, but I would say more 00:17:03.550 --> 00:17:04.990 so for 10 up historically. 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:08.590 That, if that was the entry point for who can we find to help us, 00:17:08.590 --> 00:17:09.970 that we would come upon their radar. 00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:13.360 Maybe we get lucky and somebody in that company would've worked with us before. 00:17:13.360 --> 00:17:16.420 Maybe something that company's like, I'm really passionate about WordPress 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:19.390 as being part of this stack and let me find out who's good at WordPress. 00:17:19.390 --> 00:17:22.060 'cause I want to use that platform for our web side. 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:26.490 but I, I, I think though the dream is to punch into that like sphere where. 00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:30.545 it, it starts way before the conversation about a specific solution or a 00:17:30.545 --> 00:17:34.325 specific technology, and that comes through being a more well-rounded, 00:17:34.385 --> 00:17:36.195 a more full, service business. 00:17:37.035 --> 00:17:39.345 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense for enterprise 00:17:39.345 --> 00:17:42.495 because you've got, you know, there's only so many vendors that they want 00:17:42.495 --> 00:17:44.805 to work with and they don't want somebody different for their product 00:17:44.805 --> 00:17:47.235 design, and they don't want someone different for, just for their website. 00:17:47.685 --> 00:17:51.195 It's nice to have that team that's all informed and all on the same, 00:17:51.285 --> 00:17:52.725 on the same page, so to speak. 00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:56.760 And, you know, to be able to, to carry it through the entire process. 00:17:57.690 --> 00:18:01.800 But I was wondering, you know, as a, as a founder, when you're going through 00:18:01.800 --> 00:18:07.460 that type of, merger transaction, was there any concern on your part 00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:12.470 about, you know, company culture changing or anything of that nature? 00:18:12.770 --> 00:18:16.750 or maybe even the, you know, just the autonomy to, do your job your way. 00:18:18.055 --> 00:18:21.275 Jake Goldman: I mean, for sure, I think you are, you're either very 00:18:21.275 --> 00:18:24.975 desperate or you're, or you're, you know, poly ishly naive. 00:18:24.975 --> 00:18:28.005 If you don't, as a founder, recognize that going through something as significant 00:18:28.005 --> 00:18:31.725 as a integration or merger of two companies culture, it's not an, if 00:18:31.725 --> 00:18:34.785 culture will change, culture will adjust. 00:18:34.785 --> 00:18:37.695 I think any founder would tell you, going through the journey of being 00:18:37.695 --> 00:18:41.395 the guy in charge to another voice in the room is, is, You know, at 00:18:42.115 --> 00:18:44.405 best a head trip, of a process. 00:18:44.405 --> 00:18:48.155 So I think yes, a short version is real concern by either of those. 00:18:48.155 --> 00:18:52.475 I would say that on the culture front, you know, it's funny because I feel like 00:18:52.475 --> 00:18:56.165 people that have not worked at a large number of companies, have not been through 00:18:56.165 --> 00:18:59.315 mergers with different companies before, have been on the journey of finding 00:18:59.345 --> 00:19:01.875 opportunities for, mergers or integration. 00:19:02.475 --> 00:19:06.135 Observe our, you know, these two cultures that we've united and are 00:19:06.135 --> 00:19:09.135 quick to point out where there are differences between those cultures. 00:19:09.375 --> 00:19:11.895 I can tell you, having been through those processes at other businesses 00:19:11.895 --> 00:19:16.065 before starting 10 up, I can tell you, having spoken to many interested 00:19:16.065 --> 00:19:20.175 suitors, many interested companies and, and doing integration with 00:19:20.175 --> 00:19:23.225 us, that, this might sound a little condescending, but they have no idea 00:19:23.225 --> 00:19:24.605 what different culture actually is. 00:19:24.814 --> 00:19:28.205 I actually think that the culture that we have, that 10up has and that fuels, 00:19:28.235 --> 00:19:31.445 brought to the table that have now integrated, are actually very similar. 00:19:31.445 --> 00:19:31.564 Like. 00:19:31.999 --> 00:19:33.949 Cousins, maybe, right. 00:19:33.979 --> 00:19:36.139 siblings that maybe got a little bit of a different, set 00:19:36.139 --> 00:19:37.639 of genes passed down to them. 00:19:37.939 --> 00:19:41.789 Fundamental beliefs about flexibility in work and, you know, 00:19:41.789 --> 00:19:43.769 sort of a business casual ethos. 00:19:43.769 --> 00:19:47.159 A care about quality and premium, a care about product strategy. 00:19:47.159 --> 00:19:49.979 Like where, where I actually think we're, we have differences but we're quite 00:19:49.979 --> 00:19:53.729 similar cultures and was very intentional in any decision I was going to make about. 00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.559 Doing a transaction, integrating a business had to be, close enough 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:01.129 that I didn't think it would be, might be inevitably a bit bumpy, 00:20:01.339 --> 00:20:02.779 but would not be insurmountable. 00:20:03.069 --> 00:20:05.364 for me, I just, you know, you know, it is a journey. 00:20:05.364 --> 00:20:08.224 I'll tell you like to this day, it is something that is an 00:20:08.224 --> 00:20:11.384 adjustment, for me, but I, at the same time was quite confident that. 00:20:12.254 --> 00:20:17.184 You know, that I was, that I was ready for that shift and that waiting until 00:20:17.184 --> 00:20:20.364 I was abs, you know, well, I, I'm not sure what the alternative was, waiting 00:20:20.364 --> 00:20:23.844 until waiting to seed control until I just couldn't even do the job anymore. 00:20:24.484 --> 00:20:24.634 yeah. 00:20:25.144 --> 00:20:27.454 So, well, that answers the question. 00:20:27.964 --> 00:20:28.354 Eric Karkovack: It does. 00:20:28.354 --> 00:20:28.774 It does. 00:20:28.774 --> 00:20:35.474 And so you merged in in 2023 and now, it seems like you guys have had separate 00:20:35.474 --> 00:20:38.654 brandings still in that time and. 00:20:39.449 --> 00:20:43.559 I was wondering, you know what, and we're, we're going to merge the branding 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.349 now is basically the big announcement that came out a couple weeks ago. 00:20:46.889 --> 00:20:50.779 everything's gonna be under the Fueled brand, but the WordPress practice within 00:20:50.779 --> 00:20:52.999 Fueled keeps the 10 up name, right? 00:20:53.299 --> 00:20:53.509 Jake Goldman: Yep. 00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:56.769 Eric Karkovack: was this always the plan or did you kind of come to that 00:20:56.769 --> 00:21:00.769 organically as you moved through, the merger process and kind of got 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:03.389 these two, sibling groups together? 00:21:05.185 --> 00:21:06.564 Jake Goldman: I, I, it's a, it's a great question. 00:21:06.564 --> 00:21:10.614 I mean, it's more, it's much more the latter, the, in fact, 00:21:10.614 --> 00:21:13.764 that's why it, you know, took some period of time to get right. 00:21:13.974 --> 00:21:17.844 I think I'll say that, you know, from being earnest about this, I think from 00:21:17.844 --> 00:21:22.164 early on there was a recognition before we even had to do any research into it that. 00:21:22.749 --> 00:21:26.739 Again, the way that I would describe it is 10, you know, again, I know some 00:21:26.739 --> 00:21:28.030 people on my team don't love this word. 00:21:28.030 --> 00:21:31.149 The sort of type casting of 10 Up as being a WordPress company was something 00:21:31.179 --> 00:21:36.310 pretty, I felt pretty strongly marked upon us, that it would be, even with our own 00:21:36.310 --> 00:21:38.169 customers, felt like it was hard to break. 00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:41.485 I mean, I, I don't say this to pick on you, but even coming into 00:21:41.485 --> 00:21:44.019 this meeting about this, it's, you know, it's Jake and it's 10 up. 00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:45.890 It's the WordPress, folks. 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:47.450 I thought that would be a challenge. 00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:49.160 I thought that fuel was. 00:21:49.985 --> 00:21:54.784 Still was very known in certain spaces like mobile, but when you did research 00:21:54.784 --> 00:21:58.865 on fuel, like you, you just type in like generic like app design kind 00:21:58.865 --> 00:22:03.105 of buckets, which are much broader than like WordPress, as a category. 00:22:03.165 --> 00:22:05.325 You know, fuel would pop up, come up in that research. 00:22:05.415 --> 00:22:09.465 So I think from pretty early on there was a sense that it would be easier if 00:22:09.465 --> 00:22:12.915 we're trying to tell a story of a much more expansive business to go with that 00:22:12.915 --> 00:22:15.355 brand, instead of the set up brand. 00:22:15.445 --> 00:22:17.785 But, you know, I think there was a, you know. 00:22:18.370 --> 00:22:19.420 There was a lot that had to happen. 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:22.510 I think we wanted to be a little bit diligent about let's validate that theory. 00:22:22.510 --> 00:22:26.740 Let's talk to some customers, let's stress test a few of these ideas. 00:22:26.860 --> 00:22:29.560 I think we also very much had the notion that it would feel wrong to 00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:33.670 simply say, you know, truly being a, this was, you know, truly being 00:22:33.670 --> 00:22:35.530 an integration of two businesses. 00:22:36.205 --> 00:22:39.145 Not just one company folding into the other, it would feel wrong. 00:22:39.175 --> 00:22:43.045 It would be wrong to simply say it's just the fuel brand as it was 00:22:43.555 --> 00:22:44.575 with kinda in a new positioning. 00:22:44.575 --> 00:22:47.635 So I think we also felt very strongly that there had to be a brand refresh. 00:22:47.635 --> 00:22:52.175 There had to be a, a, a brand, a new brand story, to make it clear that even 00:22:52.175 --> 00:22:55.505 though we're building on the capital of an existing brand and that this is something 00:22:55.505 --> 00:22:57.665 different, this is something refreshed. 00:22:57.665 --> 00:22:58.805 This is something, you know. 00:22:59.345 --> 00:23:02.180 I'm trying to find a different word than different, meaningfully different 00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:06.760 together than it was as two different, two different brands or the old fuel brand. 00:23:08.020 --> 00:23:11.080 Eric Karkovack: Any particular challenges in, in doing this kind of rebrand? 00:23:11.080 --> 00:23:14.320 I mean, obviously it's a big step for, for these two companies to, 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.100 you know, this merged company to, to kind of, take on that new identity 00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:20.270 and, sort of reposition yourself. 00:23:21.050 --> 00:23:22.070 Jake Goldman: I mean, absolutely. 00:23:22.120 --> 00:23:24.220 I mean, it took 18 months, I think. 00:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.090 So hard to even know where to start. 00:23:26.090 --> 00:23:28.340 I mean, the challenges range from internal culture ones. 00:23:28.340 --> 00:23:32.540 I think it's easy for people that came from what we call the leg, you know, 00:23:32.600 --> 00:23:38.390 legacy 10 up the, the old standalone business of 10 up to feel if improperly 00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:41.930 handled, improperly structured as a brand refreshed to feel like it's a 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:44.180 sidelining, which is not the intention. 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:45.590 They can feel like that to the team. 00:23:45.590 --> 00:23:48.920 So there are cultural implications of making this kind of announcement 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.380 when you choose to go through a whole, you know, brand refresh. 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:51.770 I think you. 00:23:52.715 --> 00:23:56.285 When you have two very story, dare I say, at least in their respective 00:23:56.285 --> 00:24:00.185 spaces, iconic brands, there's a lot of risk to getting it wrong, to feel 00:24:00.185 --> 00:24:01.905 like you regressed, as a business. 00:24:01.905 --> 00:24:03.705 So I think, at least from my point of view, I. 00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:08.620 you know, I wouldn't say, the goal should ever be perfectionism, but a 00:24:08.620 --> 00:24:12.130 certain seriousness about like, let's make sure that we do this right. 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:15.880 Let's make sure that, you know, one from my point of view, one chance to really 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.580 tell a story about who we are together and what that brand expression is 00:24:18.580 --> 00:24:20.080 together and what we look like together. 00:24:20.080 --> 00:24:23.170 And even launching a new website from the leaders in the word, you 00:24:23.170 --> 00:24:26.500 know, in the WordPress space is a, is a project you take seriously. 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:29.650 so everything from like marketing to literally just the, the. 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:34.630 The grit of going through and making sure everything, you know, you don't 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:37.810 even realize how many old, like internal tools with your brand name 00:24:37.810 --> 00:24:40.720 and your icon, you have slapped on it until you go through that process. 00:24:40.820 --> 00:24:42.920 so yeah, everything from down in the weeds. 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:47.690 Tooling to culture, investment in buy-in to taking seriously 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:48.980 the work of making it public. 00:24:49.110 --> 00:24:52.290 so it reflects well and, and everybody gets it and it connects. 00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:53.220 All of it's challenging. 00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:57.960 Eric Karkovack: Does, does this rebrand kind of change your focus at all, or 00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:02.820 are you kind of still in the same space you were in terms of the, you know, 00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:07.200 your daily duties and you know, where you want to, to help the, the merger? 00:25:07.320 --> 00:25:09.090 Jake Goldman: The merger has certainly changed. 00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:13.440 what I do compared to before the, the brand change specifically, not 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.980 particularly, other than to the extent that I put a good amount of my time and 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:19.480 work into helping, the rebrand effort. 00:25:19.780 --> 00:25:22.030 Today I carry the title of, which I probably should have 00:25:22.030 --> 00:25:24.370 told you before the intro today. 00:25:24.370 --> 00:25:29.750 I carry the title of, partner, at the business fueled, which I suppose is a, way 00:25:29.750 --> 00:25:33.980 to sort of nebulously make it clear that I have a major shareholder in the business. 00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:37.060 I carry a lot of, still carry a lot of like, influence, in the company. 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.730 and involved in like, it can be sort of get applied to get involved 00:25:40.730 --> 00:25:43.840 in specific projects that are good uses of my, energy and experience. 00:25:44.785 --> 00:25:47.185 But I'm, I'm not the, you know, the CEO of the business. 00:25:47.185 --> 00:25:48.295 I'm not in the corner office. 00:25:48.295 --> 00:25:51.355 I actively consult with the, what we call the platform executive 00:25:51.355 --> 00:25:55.355 team, the most senior leaders, I mean, some of their channels still. 00:25:55.435 --> 00:25:57.835 but I, you know, I don't even go to those weekly exec meetings. 00:25:57.835 --> 00:25:58.075 Right. 00:25:58.105 --> 00:26:02.775 Right now I'm, I have, sort of reset myself to give myself some 00:26:02.775 --> 00:26:04.155 space to make this adjustment. 00:26:04.425 --> 00:26:07.515 I do, I would say if you exclude some of this like brand refresh 00:26:07.515 --> 00:26:09.615 work over the last couple of months, that would took a big toll. 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.380 I'm probably, you know, I'm working about a, somewhere around a 30 hour a 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:17.250 week schedule, which I'm coming down for maybe 50 hours when you're the guy 00:26:17.310 --> 00:26:18.840 plus when you're the guy in charge. 00:26:18.870 --> 00:26:23.780 And I help a few, I help some select deals and, sale opportunities or, and, 00:26:23.850 --> 00:26:25.620 strategic accounts where I can be helpful. 00:26:25.620 --> 00:26:25.680 I. 00:26:26.065 --> 00:26:29.425 but most of my time today is actually focused on storytelling and marketing 00:26:29.425 --> 00:26:31.815 and, at least a public side of marketing. 00:26:31.815 --> 00:26:35.145 So I was very involved in this website refresh, very involved in like our 00:26:35.145 --> 00:26:39.305 blog posts, case study publication, social media, and, yeah, I gotta say 00:26:39.305 --> 00:26:40.865 I'm having a, having a blast doing it. 00:26:41.855 --> 00:26:43.275 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I imagine the, the. 00:26:43.745 --> 00:26:46.265 Dip in your schedule there, the, the work hours. 00:26:46.325 --> 00:26:49.175 Do, do you know what to do with yourself with those other 20 hours? 00:26:50.075 --> 00:26:52.055 Jake Goldman: I can imagine sometimes I don't, sometimes I find 00:26:52.055 --> 00:26:53.075 myself slipping back into work. 00:26:53.090 --> 00:26:55.205 I I don't really, you know, punch the clock. 00:26:55.205 --> 00:26:58.025 So I find myself wondering if I'm actually doing 30 hours at the end of the week. 00:26:58.355 --> 00:27:00.155 I, I mean, yes and no. 00:27:00.155 --> 00:27:03.245 Yeah, I mean, for sure sometimes there are weeks where it's just, it's just, it's 00:27:03.245 --> 00:27:07.175 not, it's not that I dislike it, but it's certainly a bit of a, it's certainly an 00:27:07.175 --> 00:27:09.185 adjustment sometimes when you're used to. 00:27:10.070 --> 00:27:14.610 Not quite adrenaline, but sort of the like, go, go, go, pace that you adjust 00:27:14.610 --> 00:27:17.490 to learn to live with, where you do sort of find yourself sitting back 00:27:17.490 --> 00:27:20.910 and saying, I, you know, what am I gonna do with myself and is what I'm 00:27:20.910 --> 00:27:24.630 gonna do with myself anywhere near as meaningful, as productive as what I used 00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:26.630 to do with myself, to occupy my time. 00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:29.240 But, you know, on par, you know, I don't think so. 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.815 I think, you know, I, I feel more like, what's the word? 00:27:32.915 --> 00:27:38.375 Not recovery, but a bit of like re-energizing myself happening in this 00:27:38.375 --> 00:27:41.735 time definitely was, you know, a grind for me in terms of how I showed up 00:27:41.735 --> 00:27:44.135 as an owner across that many years. 00:27:44.135 --> 00:27:47.525 So there's decompression, I think is the word that I'm looking for. 00:27:47.605 --> 00:27:51.565 and I, you know, I, you know, I don't talk much about my personal life. 00:27:51.565 --> 00:27:53.485 Like I have a daughter, she's nine years old. 00:27:53.485 --> 00:27:55.105 That's a precious moment. 00:27:55.105 --> 00:27:58.165 And you know, we sort of, we used to have like, you know, her in afterschool 00:27:58.165 --> 00:27:59.335 programs and everything else. 00:27:59.335 --> 00:28:00.535 Now I gotta. 00:28:01.270 --> 00:28:04.510 Three outta five days of the week, I gotta sign off at two o'clock to go pick her up 00:28:04.510 --> 00:28:07.720 and make sure she gets something to eat and bring her to after school activities. 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:10.630 So, it keeps me, it keeps me occupied and distracted. 00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:12.460 Eric Karkovack: Well, that, that's a great thing. 00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:14.260 That's healthy for you, healthy for her. 00:28:14.260 --> 00:28:17.120 And, and, you know, that's, it's nice to be able to take that step back, 00:28:17.150 --> 00:28:20.685 I imagine after so many years, as you said, grinding, you know, as, 00:28:20.690 --> 00:28:22.610 as that, in that founder mentality. 00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:27.080 one kind of last thing I want to ask you about a little bit is the tech stack 00:28:27.080 --> 00:28:31.300 for this new, fueled website because, I saw you turned it around in about eight 00:28:31.300 --> 00:28:36.470 weeks, which I mean, for something that size has got to be, quite the achievement. 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:38.270 So congratulations on that. 00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:43.840 And I also noticed that it's using, full site editing, which is still kind of. 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:45.100 Yeah. 00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:48.940 A lot of people like myself are still on the fence about using it for production 00:28:48.940 --> 00:28:53.200 environments, so I I was just wondering if you could delve into that a little bit, 00:28:53.710 --> 00:28:59.080 why you decided on, on full site editing and maybe what kind of tooling you have 00:28:59.080 --> 00:29:03.590 to make sure that it, it matches the need of, of, what your company's doing. 00:29:04.775 --> 00:29:07.205 Jake Goldman: Great questions and there's so much to delve into there. 00:29:07.235 --> 00:29:09.605 and first, I guess I'll plug, if you go to the Fueled website and go 00:29:09.605 --> 00:29:12.125 to the blog, there's a story about how we built it in eight weeks. 00:29:12.125 --> 00:29:14.535 It gets a little bit more into the weeds and, it's not, you know, 00:29:14.535 --> 00:29:15.825 part of that's full site editing. 00:29:15.825 --> 00:29:19.655 Part of that is, eating our own dog food here, using tools, generative 00:29:19.655 --> 00:29:24.075 AI tools, like cursor, like chat, more rapidly prototype, to be 00:29:24.075 --> 00:29:27.675 clear, not finished, but to rapidly get to v ones of new components. 00:29:28.085 --> 00:29:29.075 which we think is, you know. 00:29:30.120 --> 00:29:31.680 I don't even think it's right to call it the future anymore. 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.280 It's the present. 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.560 it's rapidly becoming the standard, I guess I would say, for customers. 00:29:35.560 --> 00:29:38.200 So there's a lot of things in the mix that let us do it quickly, but certainly 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:42.490 one of those ingredients, is a set of tools and components that we've invested 00:29:42.490 --> 00:29:47.920 in that built that let us more rapidly, scaffold more rapidly, build the bones, 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:52.340 and then handle in the editor, not just in code, laying out, certain pages. 00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:54.050 on the site. 00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:56.665 and there, and there's a couple, I think there's a few things to say about that. 00:29:56.665 --> 00:29:59.395 Let me just, we can get a bit of the tactical of like, what are those tools? 00:29:59.395 --> 00:30:00.055 How do we build them? 00:30:00.055 --> 00:30:01.195 How does it work with full sight editing? 00:30:01.405 --> 00:30:04.495 But there's also a strategic point that I think is like over maybe needs 00:30:04.495 --> 00:30:10.960 to be said first, which is overarching here, which is, we think that the 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.040 main shift that is actively happening in website development will continue 00:30:15.040 --> 00:30:16.240 to happen over the next few years. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:22.390 Is that, Let's say the first like 80, 90% of what it takes to get a sub, to get 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.870 routines, not like full web applications or something, but sort of like routine 00:30:25.870 --> 00:30:29.230 marketing sites or relatively routine marketing sites or informational sites 00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:32.621 stood up, should not involve going in and having to write a lot of code. 00:30:33.625 --> 00:30:34.495 To get it there. 00:30:34.655 --> 00:30:38.495 that's for a lot of reasons, and again, apropo of the story range from how AI 00:30:38.495 --> 00:30:43.445 assist us to increasingly powerful, not just, not just inside WordPress, 00:30:43.445 --> 00:30:46.655 but if we look outside of our WordPress bubble to things like Webflow, framer, 00:30:47.105 --> 00:30:51.215 other tools that are coming online, I, I, I just, I don't know that I see a 00:30:51.215 --> 00:30:56.435 website being competitive again for like marketing sites, informational sites. 00:30:56.765 --> 00:30:59.705 If the strategy is, we start with like a basic theme framework 00:30:59.705 --> 00:31:00.690 and then we write lots of code. 00:31:01.670 --> 00:31:02.900 To build your marketing site. 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.580 the time we don't necessarily think budgets will go down, but there's 00:31:06.580 --> 00:31:09.040 going to be a higher expectation of what you can do that's custom 00:31:09.340 --> 00:31:12.850 and unique, that's specific to your brand with that budget and a higher 00:31:12.850 --> 00:31:14.200 expectation that more time is spent. 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:18.560 I think frankly, on creativity, on design, on thinking about, on 00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:22.310 testing, on, on measurement and analytics, on personalization, 00:31:22.620 --> 00:31:25.560 and not on just like basic site construction to that hypothesis. 00:31:25.590 --> 00:31:28.830 Part of that hypothesis to make that hypothesis true for us, if we're gonna 00:31:28.830 --> 00:31:31.950 keep using WordPress as one of our major platforms, which we'd like to 00:31:31.950 --> 00:31:36.780 do, is to make sure that we have a really strong toolkit so that we can. 00:31:37.320 --> 00:31:41.310 at least by our standards, really keep costs under control for the basic 00:31:41.310 --> 00:31:46.050 engineering of getting a site stood up and getting very quickly into the browser. 00:31:46.050 --> 00:31:50.100 So we're not talking in theory on boards, but we can experiment with layout and see 00:31:50.100 --> 00:31:52.740 how it actually feels when you're looking at different devices and different screen 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:54.600 sizes with animation and all the rest. 00:31:54.600 --> 00:31:54.840 So. 00:31:56.065 --> 00:31:58.945 it's a bit of a, a rambling strategic prelude to say that we have a 00:31:58.945 --> 00:32:04.315 internal toolkit that we've built, which is our flavor of a theme 00:32:04.315 --> 00:32:08.335 and a set of tools and blocks and components for full site editing. 00:32:08.715 --> 00:32:11.685 so it's what you get with WordPress and then there's a good amount of 00:32:11.745 --> 00:32:16.365 like, customization on top of that, features that we've added to the editor. 00:32:16.465 --> 00:32:20.025 trying to think how to explain it in plain terms, like, Customizations that have to 00:32:20.025 --> 00:32:22.455 do with like the panels that are in the dashboard, what we hope, what we show, 00:32:22.455 --> 00:32:28.665 what we expose, what we hide in there, and a decent number of custom block components 00:32:28.965 --> 00:32:34.275 that we see at which continues to grow, that we see as solving very common, very 00:32:34.275 --> 00:32:38.925 repeating needs, things like accordions in the sites to alternative variations 00:32:38.925 --> 00:32:41.335 on like what nav, would look like. 00:32:41.445 --> 00:32:44.385 so it's not just like vanilla. 00:32:44.985 --> 00:32:46.455 WordPress, full sighted thing open. 00:32:46.455 --> 00:32:47.355 That is the foundation. 00:32:47.355 --> 00:32:51.585 We have a strong toolkit instead of block components and resources on top of that. 00:32:51.735 --> 00:32:54.675 I think it's also important to say, maybe this is obvious, but it is 00:32:54.675 --> 00:32:56.615 not, especially for a site like that. 00:32:56.705 --> 00:33:00.125 It is not that we are doing all the construction in the editor. 00:33:00.315 --> 00:33:02.595 we, there is still a decent amount of like building some 00:33:02.595 --> 00:33:03.765 custom blocks and components. 00:33:03.765 --> 00:33:07.035 There were still CSS that's being edited in the background, so it's, it's, 00:33:07.095 --> 00:33:08.505 it's maybe a little bit more hybrid. 00:33:08.895 --> 00:33:12.585 That I'm making it sound like you could for my, again, by our Stand by Fueled 00:33:12.705 --> 00:33:18.495 or teop practice standards, we can do relatively leanly sites that just use 00:33:18.495 --> 00:33:22.035 that toolkit and use a set of like pattern, like, you know, theme json for 00:33:22.035 --> 00:33:26.245 those view it your, your listeners that know that like color typography, right. 00:33:26.245 --> 00:33:29.155 Instead of customizations on it, we could do actually a pretty decent site, 00:33:29.305 --> 00:33:32.815 but the typical site is not no code, I would say it's just much lower code. 00:33:33.970 --> 00:33:36.310 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, it's, it's, it's a nice opportunity it sounds like, to kind 00:33:36.310 --> 00:33:41.140 of refocus your energies, like you said, on creativity and find different things 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:45.220 that you can focus on and, and you're not just stuck writing code all day. 00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:48.010 And why isn't this PHP working the way it should? 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:48.220 Yeah. 00:33:48.580 --> 00:33:52.000 Everything is just kind of, you know, comes together a little bit. 00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:52.390 Nice. 00:33:52.450 --> 00:33:52.540 Yeah. 00:33:52.690 --> 00:33:53.290 Nicer in that. 00:33:53.590 --> 00:33:56.050 Jake Goldman: And there's, if, if you can get the tools right, 00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:58.390 and this is what, like web flow and others stuff, figure it out. 00:33:58.825 --> 00:34:02.875 There is a real power in like the designers and the creatives and the 00:34:02.875 --> 00:34:07.225 content makers being able to work in the actual canvas right there. 00:34:07.255 --> 00:34:10.015 It is just, to me, it is palpably different to be able to go into 00:34:10.015 --> 00:34:12.715 WordPress or another sort of full page editing experience. 00:34:12.715 --> 00:34:15.295 And even if you can't get it a hundred percent of the way there 00:34:15.415 --> 00:34:17.545 to get 85, 90% of the way there. 00:34:17.545 --> 00:34:21.955 This feels right, this looks good when I kind of resize my browser. 00:34:22.795 --> 00:34:25.525 Like to actually play inside the tools, both for efficiencies. 00:34:25.525 --> 00:34:27.715 You're not coming up with things that look good in a static mockup 00:34:27.715 --> 00:34:29.455 that are just infeasible, right. 00:34:29.455 --> 00:34:30.085 On a website. 00:34:30.085 --> 00:34:31.825 And also for the creative process. 00:34:31.825 --> 00:34:36.235 I maybe a whole other podcast, but I have a whole, I have a whole thing about 00:34:36.235 --> 00:34:39.205 the way that like, for a while, website development is getting so complex. 00:34:39.265 --> 00:34:42.415 It's becoming impossible for more design creative folks to actually work in the 00:34:42.415 --> 00:34:46.195 tools, of making a website that I, I think we've lost something in that. 00:34:46.195 --> 00:34:48.745 So I think there's something I like about getting back to. 00:34:50.215 --> 00:34:52.645 You know, putting designers, again, putting, kind, being able 00:34:52.645 --> 00:34:54.475 to work in laying out pages. 00:34:54.745 --> 00:34:58.285 And then again, to be clear for us, it's usually like you get 90% of the way there 00:34:58.285 --> 00:35:01.045 and then a good friend of developer's like, oh, I see what you're trying to do. 00:35:01.045 --> 00:35:05.725 Let me override in the CSS sheet behind it, or let me add a new 00:35:05.725 --> 00:35:08.515 property to that component, or change the block in this way. 00:35:08.575 --> 00:35:10.315 so it's a, it's a collaboration. 00:35:11.125 --> 00:35:14.295 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, it's definitely, I'm sure change from the, early days of 10 up 00:35:15.015 --> 00:35:16.725 and how the approach is and everything. 00:35:16.725 --> 00:35:20.390 But, I, I, I want to just, ask one more question here. 00:35:20.390 --> 00:35:21.650 I know your time's Precious. 00:35:21.830 --> 00:35:24.650 where do you see this combined brand being in a year? 00:35:24.655 --> 00:35:25.910 What, what, what are your hopes? 00:35:27.380 --> 00:35:31.450 Jake Goldman: I mean, my hope is that we've, I mean many hopes, certainly 00:35:31.450 --> 00:35:34.180 like on the business side, that we'll have more customers, we'll have one 00:35:34.180 --> 00:35:38.380 more business that did not classically fit either independence company, narrow 00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:41.860 definition of the services that we could provide, what we were good at. 00:35:41.860 --> 00:35:46.270 More full service projects, more custom web applications where, you 00:35:46.270 --> 00:35:49.420 know, it's WordPress great, but We just found you 'cause we think you're 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.460 good at solving a bigger problem. 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.130 I think from like, you know, certainly from the marketing side, I hope 00:35:56.130 --> 00:36:01.020 that within one year that you know everybody that's familiar with the 00:36:01.020 --> 00:36:03.960 10 Up brand from the ecosystems where you're playing historically, like the 00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:07.920 WordPress ecosystem is familiar with and immediately identifies with the 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.690 fueled brand that we are inside of now. 00:36:09.690 --> 00:36:12.300 And, that nobody is confused or doesn't know. 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:13.950 Who Fueled is when they mention 10 Up. 00:36:13.950 --> 00:36:14.250 So. 00:36:15.390 --> 00:36:19.320 I guess I could list 50 more, but maybe those are the, the 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:20.430 two that will resonate here. 00:36:21.990 --> 00:36:24.120 Eric Karkovack: Well, I I really appreciate your time today, Jake. 00:36:24.120 --> 00:36:26.040 And, where, where can folks find you online? 00:36:26.450 --> 00:36:30.150 tell us all about that, that fancy new website and, That people can check out. 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:31.990 Jake Goldman: I mean, certainly go to fueled.com, 00:36:32.010 --> 00:36:33.000 and check out the new website. 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.700 There's some great blog posts on there about maybe more, about sort of what 00:36:36.700 --> 00:36:41.010 the, brand refresh decision frame, you know, what that idea, what that strategy, 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:44.140 behind the brand refresh was, as well as a bit things that are a bit more, a bit 00:36:44.140 --> 00:36:47.440 more technical about like how we built the new site and, and leverage new tools. 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:50.410 and then for me personally, I think the best place to connect with me, although 00:36:50.410 --> 00:36:54.640 I'm actually quite behind, I have to update my profile after this, after 00:36:54.640 --> 00:36:56.290 this recording, is to go to LinkedIn. 00:36:56.475 --> 00:36:59.745 and just look for me, Jake Goldman, search for Fueled, or, Jake Goldman 00:36:59.765 --> 00:37:01.505 antenna up and I'll, I'll pop up there. 00:37:02.315 --> 00:37:02.495 Eric Karkovack: okay. 00:37:02.795 --> 00:37:03.125 Awesome. 00:37:03.275 --> 00:37:05.645 Well, thank you so much for being a part of this. 00:37:05.675 --> 00:37:08.745 appreciate you, filling this in on, on your history and, and where the 00:37:08.745 --> 00:37:12.305 future lies for Fueled, and, good luck with the, with the future. 00:37:13.175 --> 00:37:13.625 Jake Goldman: Thank you. 00:37:13.805 --> 00:37:14.465 Great talking to you.