Cassandra Iannucci and Alex Green are both
part of Deakin's Students as Partners initiatives.
In this episode, they discuss how, together,
they're reshaping the way that students and staff collaborate.
Putting equity and lived experience at the center
and creating real change in higher education.
From the lands of the Wudawurrung people,
this is Stories of Wonder.
Cassandra, Alex, welcome to "Stories of Wonder."
- Thank you. - Thanks for having us.
- Pleasure.
All right. Cassandra, let's start with you.
I'm hoping that, could you give us a simple overview
of what the Students As Partners Initiative is
and what it aims to achieve?
- Sure.
Really, at its course, Students As Partners
or students have partnership shifts the focus
from doing things for students
to doing things with students.
So it recognises the unique expertise
that students bring and that's their lived experience.
And you engage in a collaboration which eventually
and intentionally leads to better outcomes,
more inclusive experiences,
and things that are just more meaningful
because they're made in co-decision making
with students and staff together.
- Yeah, right. And how did you first get involved with it?
- Well, (laughs)
I've always been drawn to relational pedagogy.
So the idea that we learn in relationship with each other,
it's a community of practise really.
And so it's a core pillar of my teaching
and learning philosophy.
And through also being introduced to ideas
of decolonizing my practise,
I was able to commit to thinking about
how I understand power and voice
and whose knowledge is valued within a teaching
and learning context.
And so I would like to really just acknowledge
our First Nations colleagues
and how we can learn a lot from them about deep listening,
about relationships and about community.
And that's what student staff partnership is.
So really, I came to it from a value
of recognising my students as partners
and thinking about how I can create a community
and lean hard into relationships first
as a grounding for then learning to occur.
- Hmm.
Alex, how did you get involved and what drew you into it?
- I first got involved in 2021.
I joined the student's mentoring staff project
as a student mentor.
And that fed into a micro grant project with, I think,
who is now the Digital Learning Futures team
to look at redesigning the DeakinSync Online unit site
to make it more accessible for students.
- Mm.
- I was looking for work that went beyond
a lot of the traditional casual roles we think of
as being for students.
I think I'd pulled enough pints of Guinness by that point.
(group laughing)
And I was also looking for a way
to feel more connected to uni.
I was an online student at the time,
and I think for a lot of neurodivergent students,
they feel that a lot of traditional work styles
won't be suited for them.
So the idea that this would not only be flexible
and accessible for me as a student with autism,
but directly valued my input
was an exciting thing to be part of.
And here I am all these years later.
- Yeah, so you were an online student
when you heard about this? - Yes, back in the day. Yeah.
- And how did you hear about it?
- Through Deakin talent.
So where students find out about listings,
including work integrated learning
and student roles at Deakin.
So I was pretty habitually combing through that
for something that I could do online.
- Yeah. Cool.
Cassandra, what does an authentic student staff partnership
look like in action?
- This really good question.
I think about, look, I think about student staff partnership
as a relationship.
And it is, and just like you would think about
a good friendship or a colleague,
it takes time to build trust.
You don't start by diving into your deepest problem.
- Mm.
- You take time, you listen, you get to know each other.
You have dialogue.
And it's in that space that you can then lean into curiosity
and open up more meaningful dialogue
and problem solving together.
And it's the same when we're looking at
authentic student staff partnership.
It's built on trust.
So oftentimes that takes time to establish.
- Yeah. - It takes vulnerability
because you need to show up as a whole human person
if you're expecting whomever you're working with
or establishing that partnership or relationship with,
to also show up as a whole human person.
It has to be a shared learning space.
So just like that reciprocity of,
I'm showing up with vulnerability as well,
and we're engaging in that dialogue.
You're coming from a learner first perspective.
So if you're coming into a student staff partnership
and it's not genuine, you already have the answers
or you know what you want the answer to be
or what you want a co-created.
And I'll say that in air quotes
because this wouldn't be genuine.
- Yeah. - You already have what the
outcome looks like in practise.
So in order for it to be authentic,
you need to come as a learner first.
And again, we lean on our indigenous ways of knowing
and our colleagues who have shared in the
practise of partnership for tens of thousands of years.
So it is a learner first perspective.
It's relational, it's dialogic,
and it's built on care fundamentally, isn't it?
Where you care to know about the other person.
You care to know about what the student has to say.
You care about their experience,
you care about them as a person.
So you're not only creating a space
that nurtures a relationship, but you're caring.
I think really at the heart of it,
that is a genuine student staff partnership practise.
It has to be built on that notion of care
and compassion and community and trust.
And it takes time to build and nurture.
- Mm.
And I guess like to be able to create spaces like that
in all of these kind of, I don't know, interactions,
these shared sort of learning opportunities,
it's not gonna be for every staff member
or they need to be prepared to kind of do like,
how does that work in, I don't know,
onboarding the right staff members
and matching them with the kind of the right students?
- Mm. - What's that process like?
- Yeah, it's a really good question.
What we have in the Students As Partners programme
here at Deakin is really leading nationally
because we have a variety
of student staff partnership projects
that all require different levels of investment,
different capacities to engage in
that genuine relationality.
And so therefore, different entry points really is
how we like to talk about it here at Deakin,
where a staff member who is curious
and committed to recentering the student
or the student voice in their practise,
but doesn't yet feel confident that they can create
that safe enough space or that they can show up
with vulnerability if it challenges their traditional
grasp on authority or controller power
within the teaching and learning space.
They can come into one of our student staff partner programmes
or initiatives that is a little bit of a lighter touch.
- Mm. - So we can meet
staff where they're at.
And the same for students.
So we have to rebuild trust with our students.
And so we can't expect all students to feel comfortable
diving into a deep relational practise with a staff member
if there isn't that trust there.
- Yeah. - And so we can suggest
a lighter touch partnership opportunity to start to build
that trust in the staff partner or,
and in the university system that it's genuinely here
to listen and to co-create
and to respond in decision making context
to what the student lived experience is telling us.
- Yeah, right. Cool.
So there's a bit of a almost like,
I don't know, you can try.
- Yeah. Not before you buy,
but you can try a little bit and find your feet a little bit
before you jump into something
that might be a bit more weighty and meaty
and see if you're ready to be vulnerable.
Alex, tell us about a moment
where you saw your input directly
influence a university process
or decision that affects students.
- I mean, look, I could point to points of impact in any
of the projects I've been fortunate to be a part of.
We've made adaptations to the variety of formats
that students can view their learning resources in online.
That was one I was very proud of.
From that first micro grant.
We've seen a lot of adaptation to language
from projects I've been part of, such as changes
to the evaluate survey, which Cassandra
and I have partnered on last year,
changes internally to how we talk about
study abroad opportunities for students.
But I actually think the most tangible shift I've seen is in
how the staff that I've partnered with interact
with students moving forward.
I've been able to go on to partner with a lot
of the staff leads that I've worked with in projects
outside of Students As Partners.
And just seeing the shift in how they show up to class
and meet students where they're at, as Cassandra says
to me is probably the most valuable.
- Right.
Are there any examples of like,
I don't know how certain teachers
or tutors have sort of changed their strategies
on how to connect with some of their students?
- I think it's more of an attitude.
As Cassandra said, it is partly about staff who are ready
to be vulnerable.
And I think seeing that we can all get very connected
to the work that we produce.
You know, when you're close to it,
it's hard to see it objectively.
So I think seeing staff be a little less defensive
about what they're bringing to students
and just giving students the opportunity
to share their thoughts has been humbling, I would say.
I think. Yeah.
- Mm-hm.
And Cassandra, how did these kind of initiatives come about?
Like the things that you can choose
to have people partner on to, I don't know, change,
is there student outreach prior?
Do students express an interest
and I guess the same with staff,
you went into it a little bit there,
but like, how do they even hear about this?
- Yes, so one of the key features of our suite
of initiatives and programmes is that none
of them are mandatory.
None are required for staff to engage with
or students to engage with.
And I personally really appreciate that
because it restricts,
it prevents disingenuine engagement with the programmes.
And because they're all opt in or voluntary,
there is an expression of interest form
for most of our projects or programmes.
But it really depends on what initiative we're talking about
and where in that scaffold partnership experience
a staff wants to sort of get engaged with.
If it is on the lighter touch,
dip your toe in type of a thing.
We do have a co-created
and student led podcast where students are
in dialogue sharing some of their experiences framed through
what they wish their lecturers or educators knew.
- Ah.
- So you can tune in to that on any...
(group laughing) - Should we, yeah,
let's get a little super there with the name of it.
What's it called?
- "Voices From The Classroom. What I Wish My Lecturer Knew."
- Oh, nice. - Yeah.
- So it's students talking about this. Yeah, right.
- That's right.
Students are hosting the podcast talking
with other students who are sharing their lived experience
and that requires nothing
but tuning in to anywhere that podcasts are live.
And you can listen to stories
and really humanise your students in your own classroom
or lean into that curiosity without having
to engage in dialogue with students.
So there's no barriers at all to engaging with that programme.
We then have other programmes like for example,
our students' mentoring staff programme
where an open call expression of interest is put out
to any staff member in the university.
Professional staff, academic staff, casual staff.
And you can express interest in participating.
We don't gatekeep really, the programme is there for you
to be involved in.
For that one students,
we have a targeted cohort of students
for the students mentoring staff programme.
- Mm-hm. - And so we will open
that programme up for students
who are registered in the Disability Resource Centre
or through the Disability Resource Centre.
But other programmes we then put on Target Connect,
which is Alex you were reflecting on how
that's how you first came to students staff partnership
and that those are those programmes.
So it really depends on what the initiative is.
There's really low barrier
and then a little bit more of a assessment process
through which the staff might submit a project idea
and then it goes through an assessment panel
and rubric to receive funding.
So again, the deeper the partnership,
the I guess more thorough the process is to ensure
that it is a genuine partnership project.
- Yeah. - And that staff
and students are gonna have a good experience.
- Yeah. Cool.
And what are the limits of what a student can mentor
a staff member on?
Like is it everything from building empathy
with people with different abilities
or different lived experiences
or the way to like how to use TikTok?
Like what are the lines we're drawing in between here?
- It could be, it really is open in
that student mentoring staff programme in particular.
Some students come into the programme
with something in particular they want to educate.
- So they can come in with, yeah, right.
- They can. - With something that
they're proposing that...yeah.
- Or they just come in with an interest
to share their experience and maybe respond.
So we had some students come into the
student mentoring staff programme who love the idea
that there's interest from a staff perspective
to understand their lived experience.
And that's enough.
So they come into the programme and just engage
and the conversation goes wherever it goes.
The academic or the teaching staff
or the professional staff, whomever it is, might say,
"Hey, I've been really curious about what it's like to,"
or "What was your experience of this aspect
of the university?"
And the conversation goes from there.
We do support our students
and our staff engaging in any of our programmes.
So for our students mentoring staff,
we provide examples of safe conversations,
what's appropriate, what's not appropriate.
For example, not appropriate to ask for disclosure,
why are you registered with the disability resource centre?
What's your disability or like it's not appropriate.
So we really support our students
and staff to make sure it's safe.
We provide activities that students and staff might use.
Like a would you rather teaching and learning edition
or would you rather assessment edition?
And it creates a fun entry point to dialogue
and then the conversations go where they need to go.
And of course that's not required.
Dialogue can just happen naturally
if both students and staff are willing.
- Mm-hm.
Why is it important that this programme
has an equity first lens?
Maybe you first, Alex.
- That's a big one.
I suppose we're trying to provide a platform
for student voices who are often not allowed into the room
or not offered a seat at the table.
- I think students can tell when we engage
with them in a way that is not authentic
and creating this sort of safe third space
for students within Deakin has been,
I mean from my personal experience,
humanising, confidence building, capacity building.
But I think we are really trying to prioritise, as I said,
student voices that are often left out of the conversation.
Because those are often the students who need direct support
and are missing out on that relational aspect of what it is
to be at university.
So yeah, privileging that space for those students.
- Hmm. Yeah, that's so important.
How do you ensure that students from equity cohorts
are supported and empowered rather than tokenized?
'Cause I suppose that's the risk sometimes depending on,
I don't know, it's an opt-in kind of experience.
But yeah, you don't want it to seem transactional.
Right?
- I think depending on the project,
part of the work we do at the beginning is ensuring
that staff have intentions
to engage authentically in partnership with students.
So ensuring we're not at risk
of them becoming research assistants
or just sort of sounding boards
or tick boxes to say that staff have engaged in partnership.
So Cassandra, maybe you wouldn't mind speaking
to sort of how we,
yeah prioritise staff who are trying
to engage authentically in partnership, I suppose.
- Yeah, and I might even take a step back.
I think when we think about universities,
they were originally designed for a small group of
privileged white upper class men.
And we still see echoes of that in our systems
and the ways that universities are run today.
And through our partnership practises
and our equity first lens,
it allows us to really step into believing
that it's our responsibility as a university to change.
So it's not about preparing students for university
that doesn't work for them.
- Mm. - It's about co-creating
a university that is for the people.
And I think about conversations that are happening now
about social licencing to educate.
And that requires that we have trust
in the people of the community.
And the only way for us to do that
is to care about our students
and to show that we are responsive, we are listening,
we are committed to co-creating a university
that is for the community.
And the community is more and more diverse.
Thankfully in a university this is something
that we need to celebrate and remove barriers
and really step into the responsibility of creating a space
that is built for and with.
And that's where partnership comes in with the students
that we want to serve in the university.
And so, yes, to what you were saying, Alex,
it's really important we can,
and equity first perspective allows us
to look around the room and say, who's not here?
How are we reinforcing inequitable practises and why?
- Yeah. - What are the system barriers
that are not meaning this table is it diverse perspective
and we're making decisions together rather than for?
And so one of the things
that we do in our programme is a low barrier entry
into student staff partnership.
So what that means for a student when they apply
through Deakin talent, sorry,
when they apply through Deakin talent,
they don't need to upload a CV,
they don't have to have previous work experience.
It's you being a student qualifies you for this role.
- Yeah. - It's your lived experience
that we value and welcome you into the programme for to share.
So one, we have a low barrier entry into
the student staff partnership programme
and we pay our students.
- Mm-hm.
- So we recognise that volunteering
requires economic capital.
It's a privilege to volunteer, it means you have time,
you have money, you have the connections
to be in the right place, you have transportation.
You know, there's so many privileges layered
in an assumption that students can volunteer.
And so we pay or numerate all of our student partners
and that helps to ensure
that equity cohort students are supported
in student staff partnership
and are genuinely removing as many barriers
as we can to be decision makers at the table.
We also hire from an equity first perspective,
which is really important to us.
And in order for any projects that seek funding,
any partnership projects that seek funding from our programme
needs to evidence that the outcomes
of the programme are going to support the teaching
and learning and student outcomes of equity cohort students.
So it needs to show that it's improving accessibility,
it's considering different ways of working.
It's asking the question, who is this privileging
who is it not, in an attempt to really amplify
otherwise silenced or marginalised voices.
- Yeah, that's fantastic.
And it really, instead of putting the onus on the students
you are actively looking for, who's not here,
who's missing, what voice aren't we hearing right now?
Alex, if you are comfortable,
could you tell us a little bit about
how your lived experience has sort of shaped your role
and your participation in this initiative?
- You like the big questions?
(group laughing)
I am very proudly a member of both the queer
and the disabled community.
And I do think my personal identity in that space
inherently lends itself to advocacy.
So there's a reason that the students we partner
with are not only passionate about improving the experience
for other students, but they have lived experience
in needing to adapt and change their way of thinking
and change the language they use.
And I actually think a lot of the staff we partner
with can learn from students in that way.
I also think that lived experience can create a safe space
for other students.
So other students who identify in those communities can sort
of see themselves reflected in students who have been able
to make significant change at the university.
And it's sort of an opportunity for students
to impact decisions that directly affect them.
- Hmm. - Yeah.
- Has your involvement in this initiative
shaped your career aspirations in any way?
Has it opened any doors for you?
- Absolutely.
I mean, I'm currently very fortunate
to be working in the Students As Partners team
with Cassandra and the wonderful Sam Geddes,
shout out to Sam.
So I'm working as an officer in the
Students As Partners teams,
sort of as that first point of contact for students.
So it's been a very gratifying graduation
from my work as a student partner.
And I would also say I learn from every student we work with
on a daily basis.
- Yeah. Nice.
Cassandra, what are some tangible changes
that you've seen across the university
as a result of this work?
- Like how long do you have?
Because we genuinely could sit here
for way longer than reasonable
to list through some of the changes
or impacts that partnership have had on the university.
I can start by thinking personally
and something you said earlier, Alex reminded me of how
of like even the most micro thing makes a big difference.
We have a programme called Coffee Conversations
and this is one of the only students staff partnership
programmes in the whole country that brings partnership
into the teaching and learning space.
So it's something that we're really proud of
because what we found historically is
that students are asked to give feedback on the unit,
on their experience of a unit at the end of a trimester.
- Yeah. - Which is amazing.
It's important to amplify that student experience,
but what it doesn't do is impact
that student because they're providing feedback
after their experience is done.
- Right.
That's probably the last thing that we wanted do
when they've like wrapped up a whole unit.
- Right, well, some students are passionate
and want to improve the experience
of the students who come after them.
But it was a problem that we wanted to solve
because students have lived experience, they have opinions,
they have feedback, and we need to listen
and inform our practise as we go through the trimester.
So we created this coffee conversations programme
Where teaching staff and students, a small group of students
and it changes each week depending on who signs up
or who's available to come along.
We share coffee or any hot beverage
or any cold beverage for that matter.
- Free coffee, okay yeah. - Free coffee
from the on campus cafe.
You walk over after class, sit down, have a bit of a yarn
over a cup of coffee, students share who they are,
as a teaching staff you share who you are,
you could talk about anything.
And the conversation, usually
with the relational first lens ends up talking about
some feedback and student experience.
And then what we can do is listen to that feedback,
make changes to our practise for the next week of classes.
And then you stand up there in front of this class each week
and say, "Hey, I heard what you said last week.
You wanted more of this
so today I've put more of that in my class."
And the students can then see that we're tightening
that feedback loop.
So when we're talking about partnership requiring
trust building every single week when we're evidencing
that you are giving me feedback, I'm listening,
and we're making these decisions together
to improve your experience of teaching and learning
and your teaching and learning outcomes.
Students are more and more engaged and trusting in you
and in the process.
- Yeah.
- But what I learned from participating in that practise,
even the small thing, like realising
that I keep so much a secret of my practise
in the university.
- Mm. - So students will be coming
and saying, "Hey, this deadline for this assignment
is not working for me."
Like, okay, to be honest, it's not working for me either,
but here's the policy.
So let's sit down together
and say, okay, using your experience,
using what's in the Deakin assessment policy,
how can we solve this problem together?
And I realised that I was making decisions
that weren't working for students
because of particular systems and requirements,
but not telling students.
So that dialogue was missing.
- Yeah. - So even little
things like that,
I'm more forthcoming to share what is usually hidden
or secret knowledge behind closed doors with my students.
And that builds trust and it builds relationships.
But that's just a very small example,
but it's something that does matter.
Other things that we've done,
we see assignments being co-created.
- Oh. - Yeah. Right?
- Cool. - Very excited about this one.
- What's an example, where have they tried that?
- Oh, multiple places across the university.
- Okay. - So we've had a couple
of faculties do partnership projects with their students,
where students in that unit are sitting down
with the unit chair and co-creating the assessment-
- Wow. in the unit.
Sometimes we have examples of students who have
finished the unit and who are currently in the unit
and who are coming into the unit.
So if it's a core unit,
we might have the next year's cohort students join
that partnership and they sit down together
and say, "Hey, let's co-create this assessment task
so that not only is the task itself genuinely seen
as meaningful, relevant, and worthwhile to the student,
but there's also this relationality that's built into it.
Other students then trust that, hey, this was designed
by my peers with my best interest.
And so they lean in harder to the assessment.
It's so cool.
Like, why do you know? It's so cool.
Why don't we do it more often?
- Yeah.
- And it could just be a rubric.
You could co-create a rubric.
- Wow.
- And I get excited about teaching and learning
because it's my heart.
But we have so many examples across the university,
having things accessible in like feminine products
in toilets for free.
- Of course. Yeah. - Right?
Something that was student initiated and led
and done in partnership.
We have examples of co-creating media,
products that support students
to see possibilities in career trajectories
and pathways from a degree,
connecting with industry partners.
We see, what are of yours favourite things
that you've seen across the university?
- Oh gosh.
I'm thinking even just of this year,
assessment templates and rubrics is a big one.
- Hm, massive.
- Obviously very excited
to see the podcast coming into fruition.
- Was that student like ideated as well?
Or was that an initiative born out of this initiative?
- Yeah. - Like and then
sort of handed down...
- That one was staff initiated,
that was born of recognising the problem
of partnership requires safety
and not all staff are safe to share stories with
from a student perspective.
- Yeah. - But we still want
those staff to have access to lean into that curiosity
and to start to understand the student experience.
So we said, hey, we need something that's really low barrier
for staff to engage with.
- Yeah. - But we are absolutely
not creating that from our,
like it needs to be student led.
- Yeah. - And co-create with students.
So then we hired student partners to create
what will this look like?
And the creation of deciding it was gonna be this podcast,
this was gonna be the aims, this is how we're gonna run,
this is how we're gonna communicate with students,
this is how we're gonna edit
was all a partnership with students.
- Yeah.
- We've also had the fantastic student initiated
project this year, which has been developing a module
through the students helping students division two
support neurodivergent students in the classroom.
So that's a fantastic resource.
And that was a student who approached us
and said, "This work needs to be done
and I think this is the right space."
- Mm-hm.
So another tangible change that I've seen is that one,
more and more staff are seeking partnership opportunities,
which is really cool because it's normalising
student staff partnership practises.
- Mm.
- And if word of mouth is spreading, something's happening,
good tangible outcomes are happening,
students are talking about their experience,
staff are hearing it, they get curious,
they wanna be involved.
- Yeah. - They wanna have that same
engagement with their students
or those same quality of relationships with their students.
And then we're seeing it become business as usual.
- Mm.
- So as an example, drawing on coffee conversations
that I was talking about, we fund those coffee conversations
when you're a part of the programme.
We often have staff come up to us now and say,
"Hey, it's just what I do with every class now."
You know? - Yeah. Nice.
- It's not, they don't even get funding from the programme.
It has just become their business as usual.
- Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah.
And it's probably less
and less of a lift as you go forward to even try
and get people on board and more aware of it.
And more people will be looking for opportunities
to do this.
- And they trust. Right?
- Right. - They trust.
So we have to establish that trust and it takes time
and it takes repeated genuine responses
to students sharing their experience, their voice,
their ideas, their feedback, their perspectives,
making decisions together and leading to tangible outcomes.
And then we know it's not a waste of time
or it's not just tokenistic or it's not just lip service.
The Deakin staff and the Deakin University broadly
really does care about what the student has to say.
- Yeah. That's so cool.
Looking ahead beyond structural change,
what does it mean for students to feel heard,
to feel valued,
and to kind of feel part of the Deakin community?
Nice massive question there for someone to answer.
- I saw you look at me and go,
"No, don't look at me."
(group laughing)
I think I started my university journey only a decade ago,
and even back then before COVID,
it felt like there was a sense of community on campus,
and there was a stronger sense of relationality
between students and staff.
I can remember going from a 4:00 PM seminar,
or shoot as they call them in Queensland,
and going to the uni bar afterwards with my lecturer
and talking about the assignment.
Oh, we played pool. (group laughing)
So I do think sometimes that sense
of community is dwindling
and there's upsides of that now that
online education is so accessible.
But I think we could be doing more
to support our online students
in getting involved in that sense.
So as a bit of a roundabout answer to your question,
I suppose I would say to any staff
who are sitting there going,
"Why don't we see students on campus anymore?
Why don't students want to engage?"
Think about how you could be the reason
they're excited to come to class.
Think about how you can be the community
that they crave on campus.
- Yeah.
And think about how you can make them feel
like you see them, right?
- Yes, absolutely.
And you see them beyond the two dimensional role
of who they are in your classroom.
- Mm. - Yeah.
- Like it actually brings tears to my eye
when I think about this question and what it means.
Like, what does it mean for students to feel heard,
valued, part of a, like it's everything.
- Yeah. - It's everything.
We are humans, students are...
It's a fundamental need.
We need to feel seen and heard and valued
and part of a community.
So words that come to mind are belonging, dignity,
confidence, yes community.
Like, gosh it's powerful.
And if we just put ourselves in that position,
what does it mean for me to be heard
and for me to feel valued,
it's so motivating and inspiring.
And it makes any partnership practise welcoming
because I want my students to feel this way.
I want my students to want to come,
I want to be one of many reasons
students want to be involved
or want to be a Deakin, want to come to class,
they wanna talk to each other.
They wanna know that they come to a place where they're seen
as a whole person, not just a number,
not just a student, not just a name.
- Not just a grade.
- Not just a grade. Ugh, all those things.
Yeah, I want my students to know that I see them,
that I know that they're balancing a million things,
that they've had to make a really hard decision
to come to class
because it meant that they didn't do something else
in a long list of things that need to happen.
I mean, we're adults.
We're all living in this high cost of living world,
and no one's feeling it more than our students.
So, gosh, humanising.
Yeah, it's really humanising.
- Great answers.
All right we've got some hopefully less heavy questions now
as we go to start wrapping up.
Alex, I'm looking at you again.
- So funny.
- What's one skill that you've gained from this initiative
that you didn't expect?
- I would probably say, I don't know
that there's any skills I wasn't expecting to develop,
partly because going for these opportunities
was very intentional in carving a path to sort of
what my career might look like post university.
So I would say, if anything,
it's strengthened a lot of existing skills,
collaboration, teamwork, adapting my language.
But you asked earlier if my experience
as a student partner has increased
my graduate employability.
Absolutely yes.
And further to Cassandra's point, yes I've developed
soft and technical skills as a student partner,
but the personal and professional confidence is what
made me feel like I could take the next steps.
So I'm now sitting on external committees, working groups,
we've travelled for conferences,
I'll be co-authored by the end of my degree.
And yes, Students As Partners is a space
that offered that opportunity
but more than anything, it was a space of
we believe you can do this, so give it a go.
It was sort of a safe space for students to make mistakes
and flex their muscles, I suppose.
So I would absolutely not be in my current role,
and I certainly wouldn't be sitting here
if it hadn't been for Cassandra and Sam
and the staff involved in the projects to go,
well give it a go and will be here at the end either way.
So I'm trying not to get emotional now, but yeah.
- Please do it, let's get a close up on.
(group laughing) - Slow (indistinct).
- That's so cool though. Like, that's amazing.
And I think that's what through this podcast as well,
we're learning, is that if you have the opportunity
to sort of like do it
before you have to go out into the world and do it,
you know you can do it by the time you kind
of like leave the campus.
- And they might be industry specific skills.
I've been involved in thematic analysis and report writing.
So yes, it's great to do tasks that I envision in my career
and go, okay, great to know
that not only do I actually enjoy this,
but I think I might be okay at it.
But it's also just being seen as a peer,
having pretty senior staff in the university turn to you
and go, "Well, what do you think?
I've spoken to Cassandra at length
before about how I think there's a bit
preconceived notion that university will shape you
into something useful, and you are here as a blank slate
to be turned into a productive member of society,
but students and staff a like are coming to campus every day
with a whole wealth of experience
behind them already.
So use it.
- Yeah. - Mm-hm.
- Gosh, if we could prepare every student for the first,
well, what do you think in a career where you're like,
"Ah, am I ready for this?"
- I remember the first time I was asked that,
and I don't think I'll forget it.
It already feels like a turning point, you know?
- Yeah. - Yes.
- Amazing.
Cassandra, what's a moment
that made you feel proud to be part of this programme?
You've spoken of many really today, but like-
- It's a great question. - Give us one.
- I know there's so...
I mean, right now. (group laughing)
Like what's more?
Oh, I'm so...
I mean, you can probably tell that
I'm really passionate about this work.
- I'm not really getting that. - Not getting it?
No, I think I need to be a little bit more dramatic.
(group laughing)
I've really care deeply about the work that this
type of practise.
Students staff partnership is not the only way
to build trust and relationships and community and belonging
and to empower students
and staff to make decisions,
to value our experience, our knowledge, our perspectives,
and to come together to collaborate
on shaping what a university looks like.
But it's a pretty darn powerful way to do that.
Like it is a tool that we have.
And we've, as I mentioned before, I'm really proud.
We actually just won an award, so shameless plug,
we won an international award
for leadership in student voice.
- Wow. Cool. - Yeah.
(group clapping)
- The whole crew is clapping.
(group laughing)
- But it's an award that is for the whole university.
Because it's all of our students, all of our staff,
everyone who's been involved in engaging with this practise
and developing the programme to what it is.
But it is something that I'm proud of.
We have different ways to engage in what it means to not,
the language that's used in the field
is often to democratise higher education.
And yes, that's true.
I think of it as returning
and learning from our Indigenous colleagues
and really recentering the values of country,
of land, of respect, relationship, dialogue,
coming together as community.
So any single moment that I see a student partner
step into their worth, like step into
what I already know and believe them to be capable of doing.
Or you see a staff partner
or I walk through the cafe, how cool is this Alex?
When you're like walking through the cafe
and you see a coffee conversation happening.
- Yes. - Yeah.
- And you're like, "Yes." Like that is so cool.
We are living and breathing it as a university.
Of course we have room to improve.
We are constantly learning
and we haven't got it dead right yet,
but we're absolutely moving in the right direction.
- Yeah. Amazing.
Final question to you, Alex.
What is one thing that you wish more staff
understood about students?
- Ooh, stay tuned for the podcast.
(group laughing)
- All right. That's it.
- I think that we want to know where you're coming from.
We want to know the motivation behind
how you structured the unit.
We want to know what obstacles you are coming up against.
I think we need to bring the human aspect back
to higher education a little bit.
And that goes both ways.
So I think don't keep students in the dark just
because you've been taught that that's what that
hierarchical relationship should look like.
You know, pull the curtain back a little bit for students,
help them understand some of your decision making,
and don't be afraid to bring
that vulnerability into the classroom with you,
because it makes you a better educator.
(group laughing)
- Yeah. Right.
And that's important because
there's also dialogue internally,
but within the field more broadly
that leaning into some vulnerability
and humanising yourself in the process of engaging
with students will mean that you lose respect
and control and authority.
- Yeah.
- And the opposite is so true, right?
- Yeah. - Like as we become human
and we establish relationships, then there's genuine trust
and genuine respect that's reciprocal.
You know, it's not something to fear,
but I think that that is scary for some people.
But to know and to hear you say how important it is
from a student perspective that staff
are showing up as human and bringing that to their practise,
I think is a powerful message.
- Well it's a great initiative
and it's nice to hear that you can walk
around the campus and even see some of the tangible results.
And so all the best of luck for continuing into the future.
Thank you so much, Cassandra
and Alex for coming on "Stories of Wonder."
- Thank you so much for having us.
- Thanks for having us.