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You're listening to The Bible Guys,
a podcast where a couple of friends talk

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about the Bible in fun, in
practical ways. Hey everybody, and welcome

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to the Bible Guys. And I
guess today is I think our first time

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where we were gonna call it the
Bible gal. Hey, yes, pretty

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yeah, I'm pretty pumped about it. Yeah. Yeah, you have broken

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the title mold Bible gal. I
love it. Yes. And so this

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is Debbie Zence. Debbie has been
on the staff of the church that I

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work at, and you were here
long before me. Why don't you tell

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everybody how long you have been on
Heritage Church staff? How old is Heritage

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Church? I don't even know.
It's twenty four years old, almost almost

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twenty four we are, so yeah, twenty four years old, twenty four

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years Yeah? What month did it
start? January? January two thousands?

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Did it really? Yeah? Okay
two thousand? Wow, So it's just

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over twenty four years. That's how
we our anniversary every January here. Oh

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gotcha? So you have been around
since the dinosaurs? Okay, all right,

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Hey, that's that's not the way
to start out, man, No

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it is not. I'm the oldest
person here. No, you're not for

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a while. That's true. That's
true. So listen, I cannot give

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Debbie enough praise and my respect because
you everything you touch is awesome. So

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any anything from volunteers to events,
to programs and everything else. Uh and

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you used to do a lot of
what I do, I know, I

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love. It was like my my
love ye music, right, my whole

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family we played. Yeah, I
play keys, my husband still plays bass.

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I got drummers in the family.
Yeah. Even actually had a dancer

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once that might have my daughter years
ago. So little kids. So you

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were you were the von Trapps of
absolutely yeah, if anybody knows what that

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is. So uh So Debbie today, because Jeff's out of town, of

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course, we're having different guests and
you sort of are buttoning up the week

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for us. Uh So, here's
how the Desiree wrote on the show notes.

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She said, Debbie is the queen
of planning and throwing events. So

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here's today's question. If you could
create your own holiday, what would it

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be called and how would people celebrate
it? That is such an unusual question.

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Okay, that is an unusual question
because you know what my mind goes

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to. Initially, let's just have
a dark chocolate day, Like, let's

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just eat dark chocolate. I don't
care about it for no reason at all

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other than you like dark chocolate.
Right, dark chocolate day. Oh we

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could have a butter pecan ice cream
day. Oh, as long as that

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he has like chocolate in it.
No, no, no, no,

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I'm talking about me. Okay,
Well, it's gonna have your own.

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But I'm fantasizing about my day.
Debbie. You're an ice cream guy.

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You can't. You can't come into
my fantasy. You're the only people who

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eat butter and pecan ice cream or
old people, old people. I know.

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That's Jeff makes fun of me.
Yeah. Yeah, old people eat

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eat better pekan. My husband loves
butter pecan, so okay, and he's

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old like me. Well, I'm
not going to say that, all right.

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So what holiday? What holiday?
Yeah? You know what, I

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think we need a ketchup day.
Do you ever feel like you need a

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ketchup day? Not the red ketchup? Oh day to just get caught Because

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I was really going to be floored
here. I was like, Hines Hines

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ketchup. No, No, I
think we need a day to just catch

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up, get all things done that
we did never have time for. It's

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just one day dedicated to it.
But isn't isn't that every holiday? No,

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this would be a day where we
don't have to come into work.

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We could actually just stay home and
you could do drawings or painting and I

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could like watch HGTV or whatever I
want to do. All this, I

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think a lot of people probably take
advantage of, like Labor Day and President's

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Day and all all the days that
the yard work day, like yeah,

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those usually sometimes, yeah, but
not for not everybody, not everybody.

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Right, you're not a yardwork person
actually, yeah, okay, see I

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like to plant flowers that somebody else
already put together. Like I just bring

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out the pot and send out of
my fortune. People think, looks amazing.

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Yeah, yeah, way to go, good job. It's like it's

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like ordering in, uh ordering in
uh gourmet food right in your own containers.

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Right, that's great. So you
think catch up day to catch up

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on your household chores just and whatever. Maybe it's catching up with a friend,

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Maybe it's catching up on your sleep. I don't know. Maybe it's

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like just hey, it's a go
out to lunch with somebody you never have

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time for, you know, if
I were to create a holiday. So,

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because because you did that so quickly, we have we have a minute

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or two. I'm going to answer
my question seriously. So if I were

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to create a holiday, I would
create a holiday where everybody served one another.

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They were required to serve one another
in Jesus love. That sounds very

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spiritual, I know, because it's
just who I am. It's who I

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am. Debbie, you have you
can have your ketchup day, and I'm

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gonna have serve people, serve people
day for Jesus. Okay, I don't

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know why. I just don't believe
that right now. I don't know.

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Hey, you know what I call
that. I call that Jesus juke.

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Jesus juke. Yeah. There was
a guy on staff who who left staff

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recently, but I won't mention his
name, but he was famous for Jesus

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jukes. And and like I would
say something like hey, nice beard or

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whatever, and he'd say, you
know, I have a beard because Jesus

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has a beard, you know.
Or I'd say, hey, I went

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to Las Vegas and I saw the
show in Vegas. Well I'm a Christian,

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so I don't go to Vegas.
Right He always but Oh my goodness,

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it was every other sentence. It
was a Jesus juke. And that's

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really good. Yeah yeah, yeah, So the pay It Forward Day,

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I think there might be a national
paid Forward Day is really have to look

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it up. I want to say, remember when the movie came out?

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Oh yeah, yeah, I remember. It's a great movie. Right,

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yeah, you're the movie guy.
So yeah, I think I think they

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made a national paid forward day.
Huh like that kind of in line with

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what you're thinking. Yeah, that's
cool. Well I was just trying to

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be righteous. I was trying to
Jesus juke you because you didn't. Because

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honestly, I would choose better pecan
ice cream day probably if it was within

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my power. I mean, not
that, not that it's more important.

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I'm selfishly wanting a better beecon ice
cream day. So well, we could

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go do that afterwards. Hey,
that's true. Let's go get some ice

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cream. That's true. After the
podcast, We'll have ice cream for lunch.

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Ice cream for lunch. Right,
let's do that. That could be

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our holiday ice cream lunch day.
There you go, ice cream for dessert

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for dinner, dessert for dinner.
There you go. Okay, all right,

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these are all good ideas. Hey, you heard it first here on

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the Bible Guys and Gal. There
you go. That's right. Well,

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I guess it's Bible guy and Gal
right right for today, right, so

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awesome. So, hey, today
we are actually in Job chapter number nine,

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and uh, yesterday's podcast we read
chapter three, so there was really

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just a lot of dialogue between chapter
three and chapter nine where really they're just

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they're working through it. Job has
three friends who are there, who are

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you know, surprised that job is
is still not sinning or cursing God.

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His wife has already spoken up,
you know, and and said just yeah,

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she's she's not at all and and
uh and so Job is uh,

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you know, he's lamenting, he's
uh, he's in anguish. He is

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not only has he had everything taken
from him, but then now he is

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sitting there with uh boils on his
skin and it's so painful that he has

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to sit in ashes, which,
by the way, we didn't even talk

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about We didn't even talk about that
like with I mean, imagine how bad

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you have to be, because I'm
sure in those days they didn't have like,

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you know, foamy bean bags or
fluffy you know, bathtubs with veno

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soaks. Yeah, like ebs and
salts, Like they didn't have any of

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those things, so they were forced
to like say, what is the softest

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thing that we can think of?
Ashes? So, like that sounds horrible,

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It sounds absolutely horrible. Yeah,
And so he's and because he was

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a rich man, I'm sure he
has no shortage of, you know,

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resources to create a big pile of
ash, but he's and he's scraping the

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boilers with a piece of broken pottery. Who that's just disgusting me. There's

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no other way to describe that.
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But today we're picking up on chapter
nine, verses one through twelve, and

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Job is going to be it says
Job's third speech. So you want to

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take it away? All right?
I read it. Then Job spoke.

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He said, yes, I know
all this is true in principle, But

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how can a person be declared innocent
in God's sight? If someone wanted to

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take God to court, would be
possible to answer him even once in a

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thousand times? For God is so
wise and so mighty, who has ever

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challenged him successfully? Without warning?
He moves mountains, overturning them in his

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anger. He shakes the earth from
its place, and its foundations tremble.

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If he commands it, the sun
won't rise and the stars won't shine.

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He alone has spread out the heavens
and marches on the waves of the sea.

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He made all the stars, the
Bear and the Orian, the Pleiades,

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and the constellations of the southern sky. He does great things, too

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marvelous to understand. He performs countless
miracles. Yet when he comes near me

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I cannot see him. When he
moves by, I do not see him.

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Go if he snatches someone to death, who can stop him? Who

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dares ask? What are you doing? Well? Yeah, you know,

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this is actually a pretty deep There's
a lot twelve verses in there that really

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truly because isn't it funny how it
almost seems like this could be taken from

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the posture of like he's on the
brink of anger, but at the same

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time he's at the brink of futility. But then at the same time it

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could be totally taken positive, like
he's just acknowledging God's sovereignty. Right,

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He's absolutely acknowledging that God has the
power. Oh, he's omnipotent. Right,

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He's going for it. This whole
chapter in those verses says that,

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and yeah, he's sitting there saying, yet here I am. I don't

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even see him. He walks by
me. I don't even know he's there.

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You know, it implies certain things, but it's almost like reading between

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the lines, because it's almost as
if he's working it out, you know,

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after all, I mean, this
is just chapter after chapter of him

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just crying out to God for him, you know, just lamenting and and

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you know, expressing his thoughts.
And it's almost as if this is a

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resolve of like of like I want
to challenge God, but I know I

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can't. Doesn't ever, doesn't it
sound like that? It's like, not

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only can I not, but nobody
can challenge him? Right. In other

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words, it's it's futile to even
try to challenge him because he's the God

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who's going to do what he wants, right, and so he when he

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talks about this, it is really
truly like if you didn't know that it

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was actually in lamenting. These are
some pretty inspiring verses, like verse number

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ten on its own, if you
were to take that and put on a

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poster, right, and you know, it's some inspirational card or quote.

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It says he does great things,
too marvelous to understand. He performs countless

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miracles. And somebody would say,
amen, right, like what a great

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verse. But no, it's not
in the context of something great. It's

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in the context of him saying,
you know, God is great and I

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can't challenge him and and nobody can. Right. I also think it's really

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cool that he actually lists constellations that
we recognize today. I almost wonder which

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came first, the chicken or the
egg, right, like, like that

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is that is a good question,
right? We did? Like like like

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the astronomers of the world took their
cues from the Bible, right, like

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pleiades? Which one's pleades? H
oh that's pleades? Uh? The orient

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of the awry? And which one
is that? Let me think it's kind

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of cool though, isn't it.
It's cool? Yeah? Yeah, I

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think Job when when I read through
Job, I don't know. I think

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everyone who as a Christian has felt
like they've had their job moment, right,

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they've had their job moment. And
I mean my feelings about the about

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what Joe was thinking here. Joe
only knew what he knew at the time.

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Right. He only knew is Hey, I don't think I'm sinning more

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than most people around me. Right, he says, I'm not that bad

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of a guy. I don't think
he ever said that he thought he was

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sinless, right, right, He
never admitted that or tried to put that

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out there. But he's like,
I am suffering way more than how much

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I'm sinning. Like it feels like
life is out of balance, and so

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if I can't become righteous with God, right, who can? Yeah,

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that's a question. I think a
lot of us feel. Yeah, Well,

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I mean I felt that way.
I felt like for a long time.

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I think I've told this from the
stage before a couple of times,

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but I felt like there was a
season in my life where I was just

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serving, serving, serving serving,
and then just getting nothing in return.

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And the way that I described it
was, I felt like I was in

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a one sided relationship. And I
was just like, come on, God,

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just throw me a bone, right, And it's just like, Gosh,

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it's like, can you please just
acknowledge the fact that I'm your servant,

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that I'm trying over here, and
yes, I'm not perfect. I

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had all those thoughts. I remember, geez, the lowest point of my

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life. I remember actually saying that
in my prayer. I actually said,

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throw me a freaking bone. Is
actually the way that I put it,

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right, And not to be disrespectful, but I mean I was on the

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brink of madness just about and you
know, certainly desperation. But you know,

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but again, it's interesting about Job
because you can't read tone into text.

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Yeah, right, So you could
almost hear this speech as inspiring,

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or you can hear it on the
brink of desperation. You could hear it

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on you know, maybe it's maybe
it's at the other end of questioning and

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now he's you know, sort of
like he's spoken and resolved. You know,

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you can almost hear it in so
many different tones because you know of

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the intent and because of the circumstances, right, right, So it's really

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hard to to sort of, you
know, process this. But here's one

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thing I do know. I do
know that Job has no doubt that God's

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in control, no doubt he knows
he holds all the cards and all the

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cars. Yeah, he's just struggling
with why. Yeah. Really, I

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remember one time when I was a
youth pastor and there was a circumstance.

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We were trying to get all these
kids to go to camp, you know,

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summer camp, and you know,
and it costs a bunch of money,

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and we had more kids than money, and we didn't know how it

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was going to work out. And
I remember just being extremely frustrated. I

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had a moment of, oh no, what are we going to do?

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Kind of thing. And I had
a friend who has actually now since passed

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aways in heaven with God. So
maybe he'll laugh about this with with God

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one day, or maybe we're both
together one day laugh at it. But

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he looked at me and he goes, Chris, He goes, do you

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actually think that God's on the throne
right now? Saying, oh no,

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how are we going to get Carly
to camp? Oh no, don't.

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I don't know how this is going
to work. He goes, do you

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actually think that God is stressed like
you? And I just I just had

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a calming sense, you know,
just come over me, and I thought,

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you're right, God is not on
the throne, saying, oh no,

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I didn't foresee this happening. I
don't know how I'm going to solve

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this. It's like God's going to
come through and sure enough, he did.

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It worked out, something came through, somebody donated, somebody served someone,

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someone gave sacrificially. It happened,
she went to camp, you know,

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and it was great and everything else. But in that moment, I

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just remember his resolve and he's like, he's like, why are you stressing.

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God's on the throne. God's God's
got this right either way, and

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that's a big burden to lift off
your shoulders. In those moments. I

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think we've all been in those places. You know, we've been through a

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lot, like I, you know, I have my son Ben, who's

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had a lot of health issues over
the years, right, so we've dealt

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with a lot of that. And
there have been times sitting in the hospital

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room dark right, feeling like you're
praying and it's just sitting that ceiling and

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falling right right back down, like
it's not going anywhere, it's not leaving,

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and you're like screaming out to God
in your spirit, You're screaming out

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to God in your heart, like
you're like you're giving up basically in every

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single thing that you could possibly do, and you realize it's only God,

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and yet you hear nothing. So
have you ever have you ever struggled with

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wanting to know why? Because you
know you've had your share of challenges and

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still still continue to face things.
Right, and but have you ever have

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you ever just really wrestled with why? Or do you find it? Do

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you find it easier to just say, well, I don't know why,

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and that's okay? Like which one
the pendulum? Where does it swing?

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I think it depends on where you
are sometimes. I think a lot of

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times I don't ask why. A
lot of times I just have given up

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on that understanding and that I have
will never know why. You know,

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a lot of people even about Ben, right, like why does he have

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to suffer? Why has he had
to go through all these things? I

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don't let our listeners know what hell
struggles he has? So Ben is severely

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disabled. Right, So Ben was
born perfectly normal, six weeks old,

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shaken. We adopted Ben, We
brought him home on hospice. Right,

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They never really expected him to survive. And he's twenty By the way,

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he's twenty years old. He's very
loud, he loves to chat, but

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he doesn't walk. He doesn't talk
right. But he's had over eighty some

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brain surgeries and lots of other medical
procedures. So he's in a short period

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of time, like through like a
seven year period of time, he went

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through extraordinary suffering, like extraordinary suffering. And I remember laying on his bed,

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like literally laying over his body,
like while he's just throwing up and

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throwing up and having all these horrible
things, saying God, it's okay,

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like take him, like relieve his
suffering, and yet nothing. It's like

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God could have snatched him out in
that moment and he would be running in

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heaven, right, And we were
as heartbreaking as it was. We wanted

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that for Ben, you know,
but he didn't, and so he allowed

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that prolonged suffering. So I remember
sitting in the hospital reading the Book of

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Job. Some of the chapters are
a little long and a little right hard.

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I'm just forty two chapters. There's
a lot. Yeah, yeah,

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there's a lot. But I could
really connect with Joe at certain times in

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my life. Right, So where
do I stand on the pendulum. I'm

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not going to ask God why.
I just want to accept the fact that

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God knows something I don't know,
right, Yeah, and that's something that

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it's a good place to be.
Yeah, Yeah, it doesn't mean that

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we're happy about it, no,
I mean we're not still battling for like

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what we hope for what we want
right right, it's still battle for that.

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And we as Christians know that,
you know, the effect the effective

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fervent prayer of a righteous person avails
relg right. So so we know that

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prayer changes things. We know that
God can change direction of his original intent.

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Right, So he was going to
wipe out uh, you know,

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soldom and Gomorrah and and uh.
And Abraham said, hey, if you

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find this many righteous people, would
you spare the city? And he said

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yes, I would, you know. And of course it turns out that

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there was no righteous people in the
city, right except for you know,

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we just we just get done reading
with that with Abraham, Lot and Sarah

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and everything else, and so you
know, and then here is God and

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Satan having a conversation and God at
first says, well, don't touch his

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health. And then Satan comes back
and says, I just know if his

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health would be attacked that he would
he would curse you. And then God

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says, okay, go for it, go for his health, right and

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uh and so yeah, so we
know we are taught even Jesus said,

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he said, remember that parable,
that crazy parable that he says, there's

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a there's a man that heaven is
like the Kingdom of God is like a

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man that knocks on the door,
and that man inside says, go away,

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we're sleeping, you know. And
he says, but because of his

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persistence and because of his you know, shameless audacity, basically he will get

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up and then give this man a
loaf for bread. And he said,

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in the same way, pray this
way to God. So we know that

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we should pray big. We know
that we know that our relentless, faithful

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prayers can move God. But at
the same time, just like in the

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case of Ben, sometimes it just
doesn't happen, you know. You know,

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it's interesting because a lot of times
when you go through those things,

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you're assuming, and people are assuming, Oh, there must be something wrong.

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They've done something wrong, right,
I mean, what has been done

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wrong? He was an infant,
he did nothing wrong, right. Obviously

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that's not the cause of it.
But you're thinking, is God punishing me?

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You know, in the same way. I don't know how if you've

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ever had this happen for you.
But people will be like if you just

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had more faith and you prayed,
you know, God could heal Ben.

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And do I believe God could heal
Ben? Absolutely do? I believe God

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is omnipotent. Absolutely, does he
have the power to do whatever he wants

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to do. Absolutely? Do I
truly believe that God will heal Ben here

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on earth. I guess that depends
on your definition of heal, which is

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a whole conversation, right, But
I don't think he will be healed here,

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Chris, if you've got a Cai
wreck and your head your arm amputator,

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right, you lost your arm,
nobody will be saying if you just

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had enough faith and you pray,
your arm would come back. Well.

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So I actually think I believe that
there are people who actually would say that,

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but most of us would probably understand
that you don't believe that, right,

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that's trying that can happen just right, there's just human law of nature

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things. And for Ben, I
believe the same thing. But I believe

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that God's using everything that's happened to
Ben in our family through Ben, right

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yep, which has been a great
thing. So, yeah, I really

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kind of resonated with a lot of
job struggles in that. Yeah, you

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know, it's interesting too, because
there are people and I get angry at

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this, I really do. I
get angry with a lot of things that

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Christians say that are wrong and abusive
and spiritual abuse, but one of them

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is sort of not everybody's fault,
right, because there's a group of people

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that believe this, and I believe
that they believe it, probably because they

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believe it's true, right, So
I'm not too angry, but they believe

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if the reason why you pray for
healing and you're not healed, it's your

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fault. You don't have enough faith, which is what you alluded to earlier.

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Right now. Again, I try
not to be angry at those people,

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but the thing that I do get
angry about is when they put the

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blame on somebody. Right. So
I had a really good friend who had

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something that they were struggling with,
seizures, you know, for years,

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and they came to a healing service
and they said, well, it's your

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fault. Right. That person walks
away and said, well, you just

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don't have enough faith. And that's
where I get angry at, right,

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the spiritual abuse part. But anyway, the point is this is that did

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you know that Nowhere in the scriptures
did Jesus actually say you needed more faith.

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He actually, when he said how
great is your faith? People think

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of great in terms of size,
but he said great in terms of impressiveness,

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right, the true authentic faith.
Because Jesus actually said you only need

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this faith of a mustard seed.
But he's talking about true faith when he

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says where is your faith or how
great is your faith? He never said

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you need more faith, not once. So I'm under the firm belief it's

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not the size of your faith that
matters. It's the size of your God.

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Right, It's not the size of
your faith, it's the size of

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your God. If you have just
the faith of a mustard seed, but

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that true faith that believes that God
can do anything, and it's true faith.

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You know when God says you can
move mountains, right, So that

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kind of faith can do anything.
So the idea, and again I'm not

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trying to I'm not trying to attack
anybody. If we have people listening around

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the world, which we do,
who say like whoa, whoa, whoa.

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I've taught my whole life that you
have to have more faith in order

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to be healed. That's fine.
I would just lovingly challenge you and say,

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look into that a little bit more. Because Jesus doesn't say that's the

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remedy. He never says that's the
remedy. He never says if you just

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have more faith, or you know, if he says a lack of faith,

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again, it doesn't mean quantity.
It means a lack of true faith

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and faith. It's the kind of
faith that the Roman centurion had when he

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says, he says, you don't
need to come to my house to hear

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my son. He said, just
speak the words. And then what did

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Jesus say, Never have I seen
such great faith in all of Israel.

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He didn't say quantity of faith,
This guy has more faith than everybody in

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needs wor he didn't that. He
said, how great is that faith?

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That's what he said. So I
believe that this is the kind of faith

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that job has. You know,
he has faith in the moment that God

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is who he says he is,
that God can do whatever he wants to

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do, and he is at the
mercy of a God that he never sinned

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against, never cursed, never spoke
against, never even gave any indication that

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he blamed him. Right although he
did say God has chosen to condemn me,

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right, He actually did say that. In other words, what he's

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doing is is he's he's not cursing
God or blaming God, but he is

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attributing the cause from God. And
technically he's right. What God is allowing

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it. God allowed it. God
allowed it, right, And that's what

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you have to understand, is God's
allowing this for a reason that's far above

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what we can understand, right,
right, And so yeah, that's what

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I think. I love it at
the heart of the whole book of Job.

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Yeah, so any closing thoughts,
because our time is coming to an

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end. If somebody's struggling out there, and you know, any last sentence

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to encourage it, to concourage them. I think if you're going through like

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we all go through our dark days, right, our dark times, just

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a trust that it's not what you're
trusting about, it's not the situations who

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you're trusting in. And so I
think that that's what Job was acknowledging this

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whole chapter, is like he was
acknowledging all of God's power. I mean,

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he created all these beautiful things nature, right, the sun, the

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moon that starts, he hung them
for goodness sakes, it's not just he

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painted a pretty picture. I mean
He literally placed all of this into our

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being for us, for our value. And so when we're having those days,

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I think, just like Job did, just say hey, I know

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God could do it, and to
step back and say I'm just surrendering to

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that. And I think surrender is
a big piece of this too. Ye,

403
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faith too. Yeah, yeah,
never stop praying, don't stop praying

404
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big, but ultimately trust in the
God is in control. Yeah that's awesome.

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Hey, that's a great place to
end, and we will see you

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next time on the Bible. Guys,