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Good morning, great connections listeners.

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In today's episode, we have a special
guest joining us, Jonny Lieberman, co

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-host of the inevitable podcast and senior
features editor at Motor Trend.

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We'll be diving deep in the current
automotive market, along with challenges

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of transitioning to electric vehicles,
exploring the current state of EV charging

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infrastructure and discussing the overall
impact of software defined vehicles for

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car owners.

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This episode is back with insights and
expert perspectives that you won't want to

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miss.

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After you listen.

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Please share this episode with at least
one other person who would enjoy it and

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leave a positive review on our podcast
page.

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Your support helps us continue to bring
you top notch content with that.

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Enjoy.

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I'm really excited for today's episode.

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I'm joined by Jonny Lieberman.

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He is the cohost of the inevitable
podcast.

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I'm sure quite a few are already listening
to it, but for those unfamiliar, it's a

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podcast looking at the automotive and the
transition it's going through for electric

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vehicles and electric supporting
technology.

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Obviously you've been working at
MotorTrend and other places for quite a

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while Jonny, but just in case anyone isn't
familiar, you can just give a quick little

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overview of your background

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Sure.

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Hi there.

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I'm Jonny Lieberman.

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I am the senior features editor and I'm
one of two senior features editor at Motor

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Trend.

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Kristen Lee is the other one.

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I've been at Motor Trend for almost 14
years next month.

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Yeah, time flying.

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I've been making money writing and talking
about cars for 19 years.

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Somehow, don't ask.

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It's, I would say stay in school kids.

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And yeah, I mean, you know, I never
thought I would be some,

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EV advocate or anything like that.

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I, like everybody else, I think I got into
this business because I wanted to drive

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Lamborghini's really fast and I've done
that.

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But, you know, suddenly I remembered like
it was yesterday back in November of 2012,

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this thing called the Tesla Model S showed
up and like, wow, if it would have been

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gasoline powered, we would have really
liked it.

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It was a really good car.

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And then, you know, like,

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you start learning about them and like,
boy, they make a lot of sense.

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And then you, you know, you kind of like,
you know, if you understand, I guess, the

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scientific method, you're like, boy,
dumping all the CO2 that's buried in the

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earth into the atmosphere is going to have
dire consequences, not for the planet.

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The planet, hey, dinosaurs got wiped out.

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Planet was just fine.

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It's got a dire consequences for my
children and your children and your

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children's children and future
generations.

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Like, boy, if there was a way to curtail
that and have really good vehicles at the

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same time, that's win -win.

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And then you started seeing stuff like
Rivians and Lucids.

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And to me, it's like game on.

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These are better than regular trucks.

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This is a better sedan than a regular
sedan.

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And a lot of that's larger because it's a
software defined vehicle with a big

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battery that can do a lot of amazing
things.

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And, you know, do I still love gas cars?

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Like, yeah, God, yeah, I just bought one.

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So I'm a hypocrite as well, but I'm doing
my best.

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And yeah, I'm very, and look, the
automotive industry is going through the

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biggest transition since...

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We got off steam You know, I got off
horses and so it's fascinating to to be a

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witness to it and talk about it gets to
talk about it So that's my my intro I'm

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also on a podcast with Jerry Seinfeld at
times called spikes car radio with this

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guy spiked Ferris in this guy's Zuckerman.

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It's pretty funny.

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So Dabble in comedy, although it's
Ostensibly about cars

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So comedy is the hobby and then cars is
the day to day job.

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No, I'm glad you.

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Jerry Seinfeld at Pebble Beach again.

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So it's.

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I just saw the kind of promotion for that.

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So I'm definitely looking forward and
great work on it.

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Well, I think let's just take a couple
steps back real quick with just your

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background for those kind of listening.

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So, how did you originally, you say you've
been doing this for like 19 years now.

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What, and I see all those guitars behind
you.

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I get the feeling that writing for kind of
car reviews and being in that space

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probably wasn't the first job.

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What kind of led to getting into that
space?

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And then I would love to.

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I mean, I've told this story a lot and
it's, it's a little bit of a pocket for

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this point, but like true story.

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I turned 30 and I was a, I was a webmaster
at an art school and I was so bored.

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I, I couldn't even figure out a way to
goof off.

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And I got to work at like 9 AM and there
was just nothing.

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I reached the end of the internet.

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I couldn't even, I couldn't even screw
around.

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It was it.

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And, and this like voice or this notion
hit me and was like, Hey, if you don't get

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up out of this chair.

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right now and do something else, you're
gonna turn 40 and another decade of your

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one and only life is gone and you've just
wasted it.

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And I don't know why I had that
realization, I don't know what, but I

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immediately that day reached out, there
was a website called The Truth About Cars,

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which at the time was a one man gig, it
was this guy Robert Farago, and he was

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like, he used to work for CNN or
something, and he was a very good writer,

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and he was just...

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doing, I really liked his reviews and I
wrote him and said, Hey, are you hiring?

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And he said, go get a car and review it
and we'll see.

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You know, and I did.

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And, and, and, and, after a little back
and forth, he was like, all right, great.

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I'll send you a press car.

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And the rest is sort of history.

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And then like, you know, I worked really
hard.

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I made no money.

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And then five years later, Motor Trend
came knocking and, Angus McKenzie said,

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Hey, you know, what do you think senior
editor, Motor Trend?

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You know, I said,

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Let me get married first, but the answer
is probably yes.

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And a couple months, two months after I
got married, I started working for Motor

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Trend and next month it's 14 years.

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So turned into a little bit of a career.

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Wow.

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And I think that's great to hear because
it is such a, important thing to kind of

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find what you're passionate about and to
like have those realizations about

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investing the time and doing that great
work.

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I'm kind of curious.

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Yeah.

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feel like a day of work.

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Total lie.

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It's always work.

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I mean, I was grinding to get something
like Fisker went bankrupt today.

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I was like, I should probably comment on
it.

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And boy, I didn't want to write that.

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And like, you know, misery.

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But anyways, but I still, I'm fascinated
by the subject matter.

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And again, I think what's really cool
rather than,

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Only the way it used to be is only writing
about, okay, here's the new X.

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It gets 10 more horsepower and it's, it's
10 millimeters lower.

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And the, the, tire inflation sticker has
been, moved down two millimeters and the

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center of gravity is now, but, it's like,
Hey, this thing, it's got four motors and

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it can do anything.

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You know, it's like, it's wild, you know?

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And so, so it's kind of like, I don't
know.

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I I've been using the metaphor that, you
know,

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We're at the end of the world series for
internal combustion.

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We kind of get it.

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There's a new Bugatti V16 that's coming.

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That'll be pretty cool.

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Corvette Z06, most powerful, naturally
aspirated V8 ever.

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670 horsepower.

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By the way, the Lucid Sapphire, it's got
three 670 horsepower motors on board.

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You know, so it's like, it's just, you
know, we're in the first inning, maybe top

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of the second or something of the electric
car revolution.

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And I think what's going to start
happening is going to really impress

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people.

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But yes, there's a hump, a transitory
period we have to get over.

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But, you know, I haven't written it yet,
but I have the headline.

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It's the shifting goalposts of the
electrification of the automobile.

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And I was looking back at an old car.

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Yeah.

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And I was, thank you.

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Don't steal it.

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And I was, I was looking at a car driver
from 2004 and like, you know, you open it

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up and, you know, Chubba's, you know,
letter to the editor or whatever, you

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know, the editor's notes, like, you know,
hybrids suck, you know, page two Brock

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Yates, you know, hybrids are a commie plot
to take away your rights.

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Page three, mathematical proof from,
Patrick Boudard.

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And I hate to call these guys out my name,
but I'm just going to, you know, nuking

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Hiroshima was better for the environment
than two Priuses, you know, here's, here's

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the math.

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Yeah.

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now, like, man, I don't want to even, I
want a hybrid.

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Give me a plug -in hybrid.

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Like, that's what real enthusiasts want,
you know?

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So it just moves around.

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And...

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Why do you think that is?

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Is it just kind of like the, as they say,
like, you can take the V out of my cold

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dead hands kind of like mentality or what
is?

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Yeah.

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Red Dawn the other night speaking of nukes
and things coming out of cold dead hands

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and John Milius.

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What a great movie.

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But yeah, I mean, America, we're an
extreme country.

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You know, we're in this like hyper
polarized state.

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Yeah, look, we've probably been hyper
polarized since before the Civil War,

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probably since the founding.

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Who knows how they pulled it off.

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So somehow, you know, if you're on this
side of the aisle, you hate EVs, you know,

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and somehow if you're on this side, you
love EVs.

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And I'm just like, I just love cars.

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And you know, the continued possibility of
human life on planet earth.

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So I, you know, I'm advocating for these
things.

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And I think a lot of people take their
eyes off that prize when it's just like,

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it's the CO2 stupid.

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You know, yes, I think EVs and good
software, we can get better vehicles.

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And like, it's not there yet for
supercars.

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Although I've driven the Pinafrina Batista
and like,

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God, that's good.

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But you look at the Rivian R1T, and I am
an owner, proud owner, and I pay them

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every month.

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I wish they would pay me, but I stupidly
pay them every month because I bought the

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damn thing.

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It's better than any other truck.

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It's just better, I'm sorry.

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And happens to be an EV, you could say
that way, or you could say it's really

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smart and they used the fact that it has
four motors, they're able to do things

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that no gasoline vehicle could do.

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you know, in terms of like knowing what
surface it's on because you're sending X

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amount of power to the motor and it gets
that much rotation.

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And if you send X and get Y, that means
grass or that means a rock or that means

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gravel.

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You can't do that, you know, because you
got slip and gears and, and differentials.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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different parts, but I, I'm kind of
curious.

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It is really interesting.

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like you said, like there's so much
division and kind of this tribal, at least

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online.

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And I'm always like consistent.

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I've done quite a few road trips.

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I've got a buddy actually of all things.

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he moved out from Oregon a couple of years
ago and he lives now in the Midwest

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selling, Volvo semi trucks.

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And so.

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he is always like the best person to talk
about just like to get the heartbeat of

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what is going on in the central, like it
just in the kind of the Midwest in

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general, but also like, especially like
the trucking community that has so many,

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and admittedly like needs like you have to
have for like a diesel truck.

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And so the skepticism around like hydrogen
and electric vehicles, but it is really

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interesting to me that, as you're talking
about, like the goalposts moving what,

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really always seems to even bring down the
tribalism is just getting people getting

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butts in seats, even though it's kind of
like been set forever and just how quickly

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that like, if you're going to have a much
more fun car with way better features,

230
00:11:47,826 --> 00:11:52,556
it's like, you don't really care what part
of the political spectrum it's on,

231
00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:54,306
especially when you're dealing with the
day to day.

232
00:11:54,306 --> 00:11:58,686
And I really feel like even then there's
maybe some traditional car enthusiasts

233
00:11:58,686 --> 00:12:02,522
that are, I think yelling at the loudest,
at least.

234
00:12:02,522 --> 00:12:06,122
in some of the forums, but even then I
just feel like the best thing is always

235
00:12:06,122 --> 00:12:08,372
like, and it sounds like that's even how
your experience was too.

236
00:12:08,372 --> 00:12:09,882
You kind of got behind the wheel of it.

237
00:12:09,882 --> 00:12:13,902
And even if you just forget that it's
electric, the experience of it was just so

238
00:12:13,902 --> 00:12:16,128
much better than what's out there.

239
00:12:16,128 --> 00:12:16,998
Yes.

240
00:12:16,998 --> 00:12:19,308
And to your point, yeah.

241
00:12:19,308 --> 00:12:20,588
Butts and seats is a huge thing.

242
00:12:20,588 --> 00:12:25,708
The other thing is like truckers, long
haul truckers, like no more gears.

243
00:12:25,708 --> 00:12:26,328
Really?

244
00:12:26,328 --> 00:12:27,448
That's great.

245
00:12:27,448 --> 00:12:30,188
You know, like maybe it could drive for
you.

246
00:12:30,188 --> 00:12:30,598
Wow.

247
00:12:30,598 --> 00:12:31,467
Even better.

248
00:12:31,467 --> 00:12:34,792
You know, like it's, it's a, so yeah, you
know,

249
00:12:34,792 --> 00:12:37,722
and especially with, I mean, I'm talking
about passenger vehicles, but you're

250
00:12:37,722 --> 00:12:37,822
right.

251
00:12:37,822 --> 00:12:42,742
Like once you start getting into the
commercial side, especially we had, one of

252
00:12:42,742 --> 00:12:45,863
the kind of early product managers for
Daimler's,

253
00:12:45,863 --> 00:12:51,624
trucking side is it's wild every time a
truck has to start and stop and just how

254
00:12:51,624 --> 00:12:57,584
much I'm trying to blank it's but the
actual force on the frame and the the

255
00:12:57,584 --> 00:13:02,332
amount of torque that a diesel engine puts
on one of these vehicles day to day.

256
00:13:02,332 --> 00:13:06,512
especially when you're driving through
like stop and go traffic that with an

257
00:13:06,512 --> 00:13:12,092
electric or even a hydrogen vehicle that
just is not even a thought anymore.

258
00:13:12,092 --> 00:13:15,892
And it just seems to be like so many of
these things when it comes to the

259
00:13:15,892 --> 00:13:21,572
practicality and the living with it day to
day that really makes the difference in

260
00:13:21,572 --> 00:13:25,632
whether you have that skepticism or you're
just generally curious that people are

261
00:13:25,632 --> 00:13:30,092
kind of jumping to the other side or at
least considering it when they're going to

262
00:13:30,092 --> 00:13:31,048
buy a vehicle.

263
00:13:31,048 --> 00:13:34,198
I hate to even like make it a side thing,
but you know, look, a couple of things

264
00:13:34,198 --> 00:13:37,598
like, like one Bob Lutz has one of my
favorite quotes was Americans buy

265
00:13:37,598 --> 00:13:39,738
horsepower, but drive torque.

266
00:13:39,838 --> 00:13:44,218
So the way we drive, which is like, you
know, jack, rabbiting away from

267
00:13:44,218 --> 00:13:47,788
stoplights, like, EVs are better for that.

268
00:13:47,998 --> 00:13:52,318
you know, and, and, and having, you know,
no gears to downshift, like that's, that's

269
00:13:52,318 --> 00:13:52,888
even quicker.

270
00:13:52,888 --> 00:13:53,718
It's great.

271
00:13:53,718 --> 00:13:56,136
And, but then, you know,

272
00:13:56,758 --> 00:14:00,698
The other thing is like, there shouldn't
be a side.

273
00:14:00,698 --> 00:14:05,098
It's this false narrative almost.

274
00:14:05,098 --> 00:14:09,458
I think the people you keep saying in the
forums, the people yelling loudest are

275
00:14:09,458 --> 00:14:12,218
sort of the people that don't buy new cars
anyways.

276
00:14:12,218 --> 00:14:17,198
And if you were to back up a little bit,
if you were to back up a little bit, what

277
00:14:17,198 --> 00:14:22,178
you'd find is these are the same people
that are like, power windows, that's the

278
00:14:22,178 --> 00:14:23,478
government telling you.

279
00:14:23,478 --> 00:14:24,698
You can't roll up and down.

280
00:14:24,698 --> 00:14:28,338
You got to use a computer to roll your,
and I'm, I used to talk to.

281
00:14:29,258 --> 00:14:29,528
Yeah.

282
00:14:29,528 --> 00:14:33,418
And so it's, it's, I think a lot of people
that are, don't buy new cars or driving

283
00:14:33,418 --> 00:14:35,828
the narrative, people that buy new cars
are like, wait a second.

284
00:14:35,828 --> 00:14:40,198
Like, this thing, this thing can like
drive for me and stop and go traffic.

285
00:14:40,198 --> 00:14:42,298
Like I'd like that.

286
00:14:42,298 --> 00:14:44,898
I never have to go to a gas station.

287
00:14:44,898 --> 00:14:48,288
Like, cause 99 % of the time I just go to
work, man.

288
00:14:48,288 --> 00:14:49,718
I want to come home and.

289
00:14:49,718 --> 00:14:53,258
Last thing I want to do is like get up
early to go get gas or after a long hard

290
00:14:53,258 --> 00:14:54,188
day, stop at a gas.

291
00:14:54,188 --> 00:14:56,058
I can just go home and plug it in.

292
00:14:56,058 --> 00:14:57,478
that sounds heavenly.

293
00:14:57,478 --> 00:15:04,078
You know, so it's, it's, you know, it's,
it's, it's, the loud ones, they're not

294
00:15:04,078 --> 00:15:05,498
really building EVs for you.

295
00:15:05,498 --> 00:15:07,688
You know, you're, you're, driving a 50
year old car.

296
00:15:07,688 --> 00:15:08,838
It's, it's, don't worry about it.

297
00:15:08,838 --> 00:15:13,318
No one's taking it away, but like, don't,
don't, don't try to impede progress.

298
00:15:16,086 --> 00:15:17,076
If that makes sense.

299
00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:18,756
I'm kind of, yeah.

300
00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,856
And well, I'm kind of curious, like you
look at some of the brands and globally,

301
00:15:21,856 --> 00:15:26,156
when you talk about like electric vehicles
and as you mentioned, hybrids, it just

302
00:15:26,156 --> 00:15:30,656
like the more it seems like electric
vehicles are getting better, faster, and

303
00:15:30,656 --> 00:15:33,936
just offer a much better experience all
around than hybrids.

304
00:15:33,936 --> 00:15:38,056
And I was in, the new Prius and a couple
other things recently that are big

305
00:15:38,056 --> 00:15:38,966
improvements for them.

306
00:15:38,966 --> 00:15:44,216
But if you look at kind of like what the
step function is compared to how far

307
00:15:44,216 --> 00:15:46,524
electric vehicles are like coming out with
each year.

308
00:15:46,524 --> 00:15:47,630
I am

309
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:52,490
the Volt, when it came out, went like, I
don't know, 40 miles on a charge and then

310
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:56,450
it got 106 miles per gallon equivalent.

311
00:15:56,510 --> 00:16:01,730
The Prius Prime, 14 years later, goes 40
miles on a charge and gets 106 miles per

312
00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:02,080
gallon.

313
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:07,210
But the Prime's a great example of what I
don't like about plug -in hybrids is like,

314
00:16:07,210 --> 00:16:11,030
I was driving it around, I'm like, boy,
this is a really nice EV.

315
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:14,742
And then 36 miles later, the battery goes
dead and the most miserable.

316
00:16:14,742 --> 00:16:20,152
two liter NA Atkinson cycle engine hooked
to a CVT turns on.

317
00:16:20,152 --> 00:16:21,802
I'm like, who wants this?

318
00:16:21,802 --> 00:16:23,882
It's a miserable driving experience.

319
00:16:23,882 --> 00:16:27,182
I think like plug -in hybrids kind of give
you the worst of both worlds.

320
00:16:27,182 --> 00:16:32,382
You get a bad EV experience and a most
miserable gasoline experience.

321
00:16:32,382 --> 00:16:35,522
And yes, you'll have people, no, you don't
understand my life.

322
00:16:35,522 --> 00:16:37,702
For me, this is ideal.

323
00:16:37,702 --> 00:16:40,398
And it's like, I would say, look.

324
00:16:41,270 --> 00:16:44,850
Plug -in hybrids and hybrids are supposed
to be this transitory step between

325
00:16:44,850 --> 00:16:46,830
gasoline and EVs.

326
00:16:46,830 --> 00:16:47,450
Fine.

327
00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:49,560
Except that EVs are outselling plug -in
hybrids.

328
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,870
So if the end of the bridge is doing
better than the bridge, like, burn the

329
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:56,570
bridge, you don't need it, you know?

330
00:16:56,570 --> 00:16:58,736
So that's what I think, but.

331
00:16:58,736 --> 00:17:01,516
it's just like, even from like the
engineering perspective of it, just like

332
00:17:01,516 --> 00:17:06,275
the amount of, you're using this, it's a
different chemistry mentally, but these

333
00:17:06,275 --> 00:17:12,276
small, batteries that are having a much
higher cycle life, you've got a, gas

334
00:17:12,276 --> 00:17:13,196
engine.

335
00:17:13,376 --> 00:17:14,976
That's true.

336
00:17:14,976 --> 00:17:15,358
Yeah.

337
00:17:15,358 --> 00:17:18,498
plug -in hybrid, it's a 16 .7 kilowatt
battery.

338
00:17:18,498 --> 00:17:20,758
That's, you know, a lithium ion battery.

339
00:17:21,218 --> 00:17:21,738
Yeah.

340
00:17:21,738 --> 00:17:22,498
Yeah.

341
00:17:22,498 --> 00:17:27,598
And, yeah, it's, you know, I don't know
anything about engineering, but look at

342
00:17:27,598 --> 00:17:28,518
Occam's razor.

343
00:17:28,518 --> 00:17:30,648
Like, like what, why would two power
trains?

344
00:17:30,648 --> 00:17:31,718
That's crazy.

345
00:17:31,718 --> 00:17:33,998
That's, that's heavy and bad.

346
00:17:34,016 --> 00:17:35,816
are going to love it longer term.

347
00:17:35,816 --> 00:17:37,616
I don't know if you.

348
00:17:38,656 --> 00:17:40,176
Exactly.

349
00:17:41,056 --> 00:17:41,486
Right.

350
00:17:41,486 --> 00:17:42,636
Exactly.

351
00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:48,096
Now you start doing those affirm loans you
see all over the place now just for, but,

352
00:17:48,536 --> 00:17:53,616
when you kind of look at what these
changes have been, there's obviously the

353
00:17:53,616 --> 00:17:54,006
drive train.

354
00:17:54,006 --> 00:17:56,516
I think that gets a lot of the attention,
but I think, I think that's really

355
00:17:56,516 --> 00:18:01,096
interesting that you guys have really
focused on the inevitable podcast is then

356
00:18:01,096 --> 00:18:03,260
the software side of it.

357
00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:07,800
And that user experience and that really
does kind of make it a night and day

358
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:08,940
difference.

359
00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:12,610
and I think there's an element where
people say like, that's just kind of like,

360
00:18:12,610 --> 00:18:13,400
it's nothing new.

361
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,700
It's it's what like, like you're saying
power windows or some new, just a new

362
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:19,920
version of something they can charge you.

363
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,740
But in, I think, I think there is a stair
step function with having an EV and that

364
00:18:24,740 --> 00:18:27,720
kind of charge at home functionality and
being able to do that with an app that's

365
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,260
reliable.

366
00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:31,660
But then yeah, you get like dog mode, you
get all these other things that you really

367
00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:33,052
just couldn't do.

368
00:18:33,052 --> 00:18:35,412
with a combustion engine vehicle.

369
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:44,990
it's, you know, so we use the term,
software defined vehicle, SDVs and yeah,

370
00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:46,830
that's, that's the game changer.

371
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,100
and Tesla stumbled upon it.

372
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:54,390
They, they, you know, remember when they
were trying to get the model, S out the

373
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:55,720
door, nobody would work with them.

374
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,120
Nobody would give them parts.

375
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:02,570
They're like, Hey, we'd like some, I don't
know, you know, you know, you know, window

376
00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:03,158
motors.

377
00:19:03,158 --> 00:19:03,918
Nope.

378
00:19:03,918 --> 00:19:05,958
So they'd like make their own.

379
00:19:05,958 --> 00:19:10,778
And so like why, the way traditional cars
work is like your window motors come in

380
00:19:10,778 --> 00:19:18,798
from Bosch and your graphics card comes in
from Nvidia and this comes in from another

381
00:19:18,798 --> 00:19:20,118
manufacturer.

382
00:19:21,438 --> 00:19:22,858
Well, everyone's got a screen.

383
00:19:22,858 --> 00:19:23,078
Yeah.

384
00:19:23,078 --> 00:19:30,012
But like, so your engine control system
comes from Johnson controls.

385
00:19:30,012 --> 00:19:30,618
Right.

386
00:19:30,618 --> 00:19:32,688
different languages and then you got to
make it.

387
00:19:32,688 --> 00:19:35,098
So Tesla was like, well, let's make
everything speak the same language

388
00:19:35,098 --> 00:19:36,668
natively.

389
00:19:36,708 --> 00:19:38,718
now you control your software stack.

390
00:19:38,718 --> 00:19:41,378
So, you know, why did Fiskr go bankrupt?

391
00:19:41,378 --> 00:19:44,938
You know, it was because they didn't
control their software stack.

392
00:19:44,938 --> 00:19:48,598
That was, that was the hard part was that
they were just trying to make, because

393
00:19:48,598 --> 00:19:50,378
they tried to do it in a cheaper way.

394
00:19:50,378 --> 00:19:53,958
It's like, okay, we're going to get
suppliers to give us what we need.

395
00:19:53,958 --> 00:19:56,108
And we'll have somebody else build it.

396
00:19:56,108 --> 00:19:57,750
We'll have another factory build it.

397
00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:00,230
and they just never got control of their
software stack.

398
00:20:00,230 --> 00:20:03,890
And that was, you know, you go back and
watch that whatever's name was video, I

399
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:06,230
can't think of his name, but the worst car
ever drove.

400
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:09,370
He was just talking about the software,
hardware is fine.

401
00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:14,070
You know, so you look at Tesla and you
look at Rivian, like their software is

402
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:14,610
incredible.

403
00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:18,970
Especially I would say these days Rivian,
like just murdering the software game.

404
00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:22,900
And you know, go back and look at, you
know, phones before the iPhone.

405
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:24,140
Remember how many of those there were?

406
00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:26,200
Like once the iPhone showed up, game over.

407
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,478
Guess what the iPhone is?

408
00:20:27,478 --> 00:20:29,998
Software defined phone.

409
00:20:29,998 --> 00:20:31,818
You had an operating system.

410
00:20:31,818 --> 00:20:37,038
You had some really good hardware, but the
software was able to take advantage of it.

411
00:20:37,718 --> 00:20:41,778
And it's funny what we're able to do with
our phones now, but there was a time when

412
00:20:41,778 --> 00:20:42,798
you couldn't do anything.

413
00:20:42,798 --> 00:20:45,238
And you couldn't have a speedometer on
your phone because you didn't have an

414
00:20:45,238 --> 00:20:47,078
accelerometer built in.

415
00:20:47,318 --> 00:20:48,852
So you know, you...

416
00:20:48,852 --> 00:20:51,372
the worst part of the modern phone now is
the actual phone.

417
00:20:51,372 --> 00:20:54,852
It's like so many of these other things
that it's unlocked in the use cases around

418
00:20:54,852 --> 00:20:55,172
them.

419
00:20:55,172 --> 00:20:57,692
But I think it's kind of funny because
you're right.

420
00:20:57,692 --> 00:21:03,422
I actually had interviewed Henrik Fisker
for auto line a couple of years ago now,

421
00:21:03,422 --> 00:21:07,012
but it was really interesting talking with
them and obviously amazing history of

422
00:21:07,012 --> 00:21:09,532
designing cars and some beautiful vehicles
he's made.

423
00:21:09,532 --> 00:21:13,052
But it just seemed like the whole business
model, even back then to me, it was like,

424
00:21:13,052 --> 00:21:16,412
okay, I get this from like an MBA
business.

425
00:21:17,244 --> 00:21:20,724
Thesis that's like, this sounds like a
great way to build a car.

426
00:21:20,724 --> 00:21:23,564
It just doesn't seem like, I mean, and you
look at the startups that have been

427
00:21:23,564 --> 00:21:29,104
successful, Tesla, Rivian, and to some
extent to, lucid, at least with the brand

428
00:21:29,104 --> 00:21:33,744
recognition, it's that personalization,
not just even in the software level, but

429
00:21:33,744 --> 00:21:37,384
in kind of just like creature comforts and
some of these things that they built into

430
00:21:37,384 --> 00:21:38,104
those vehicles.

431
00:21:38,104 --> 00:21:43,704
And I think the fiscal ocean was designed
really beautifully, but in a day to day

432
00:21:43,704 --> 00:21:47,196
living practicality, and then obviously
the software level of it.

433
00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:51,756
You just don't have that kind of
connection to the actual driver that has

434
00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:53,850
made these other startups so successful.

435
00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:58,790
again, I think back on the, if I'm a
Rivian almost two years now, it's almost

436
00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:00,250
two years, two years?

437
00:22:00,250 --> 00:22:01,460
Yeah, it might be two years now.

438
00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:02,510
I can't remember.

439
00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:03,880
God, two years I think.

440
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,510
Anyhow, sorry.

441
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:11,390
But I knew how good it was off -road when
I bought it because I did a lot of off

442
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:11,810
-roading with it.

443
00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:14,410
I knew it would be really fast because it
has 835 horsepower.

444
00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:18,550
But what's really impressed me about
owning it is two years later, the car is

445
00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:20,142
much better than when I bought it.

446
00:22:20,268 --> 00:22:21,114
for sure.

447
00:22:21,114 --> 00:22:21,934
doesn't happen.

448
00:22:21,934 --> 00:22:25,694
Well, I went to bed one night and I had
270 miles of range with the off -road

449
00:22:25,694 --> 00:22:26,194
tires.

450
00:22:26,194 --> 00:22:28,074
I woke up, I had 285.

451
00:22:28,074 --> 00:22:31,594
I got pet mode, I got camping mode.

452
00:22:31,774 --> 00:22:37,814
They totally, completely reconfigured all
the major controls because it's software

453
00:22:37,814 --> 00:22:40,554
-defined, they're able to, and they have
good programmers.

454
00:22:40,554 --> 00:22:44,874
You can have bad software -defined
vehicles, Riving just happens to make a

455
00:22:44,874 --> 00:22:46,694
really good one.

456
00:22:46,902 --> 00:22:52,060
And yeah, so it's a, you know, just
everything keeps moving.

457
00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:56,460
think that is, no, that's, that's a really
good point is just that you get used to

458
00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:59,710
that kind of user experience, owning the
vehicle.

459
00:22:59,710 --> 00:23:02,080
It's like, so if you go to look for
another vehicle, it's like, well, it

460
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,740
doesn't get software updates or it's, it's
the same with like your phone.

461
00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:10,240
I, my iPhone's like three years old, but I
still get updates and get support as these

462
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,540
new features come out.

463
00:23:11,540 --> 00:23:15,140
And, our daily is just a Tesla model one.

464
00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,770
It's the same thing.

465
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:17,760
doesn't want to waste great.

466
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,050
There's nothing wrong with it.

467
00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:23,172
Maybe it's a little ubiquitous these days,
but it's a wonderful product.

468
00:23:23,172 --> 00:23:25,912
that's almost the downside, but almost
kind of the nice thing you kind of just

469
00:23:25,912 --> 00:23:26,472
blend in.

470
00:23:26,472 --> 00:23:27,062
Yeah.

471
00:23:27,062 --> 00:23:28,082
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.

472
00:23:28,082 --> 00:23:32,722
I mean, I remember we did a thing where
we're doing an IONIQ 5 versus a Model Y,

473
00:23:32,722 --> 00:23:34,162
it's a white Model Y in LA.

474
00:23:34,162 --> 00:23:36,622
And like, I would forget who I was
following.

475
00:23:36,622 --> 00:23:38,342
I'm like, I'm looking for the car.

476
00:23:38,342 --> 00:23:39,302
He's right in front of me.

477
00:23:39,302 --> 00:23:40,742
He's my friend, Scott driving.

478
00:23:40,742 --> 00:23:42,682
But I would like, where'd he go?

479
00:23:42,682 --> 00:23:44,842
Cause it's just another white Model Y.

480
00:23:44,842 --> 00:23:50,382
But yeah, I mean, you know, again, there's
so much you can do.

481
00:23:50,382 --> 00:23:54,242
Like, again, another new feature that just
came out with the Rivian, they're grading

482
00:23:54,242 --> 00:23:54,902
chargers.

483
00:23:54,902 --> 00:23:55,894
In other words,

484
00:23:55,894 --> 00:24:00,994
All the charges in America, another person
from Rivian is probably charged there and

485
00:24:00,994 --> 00:24:01,824
it gives them a grade.

486
00:24:01,824 --> 00:24:02,584
And what is the grade?

487
00:24:02,584 --> 00:24:06,134
Well, I forget the exact formula, but it's
like, is it up?

488
00:24:06,134 --> 00:24:07,934
What's the speed?

489
00:24:07,934 --> 00:24:09,694
How long did it take to start?

490
00:24:09,694 --> 00:24:12,754
Cause if you have an EV, you've been to
electrify America and it's taking you 25

491
00:24:12,754 --> 00:24:16,334
minutes after being on the phone, some
poor schlub who has to answer your

492
00:24:16,334 --> 00:24:18,014
screaming phone call.

493
00:24:18,134 --> 00:24:19,444
So like it takes all in account.

494
00:24:19,444 --> 00:24:21,344
That's an A charging site.

495
00:24:21,344 --> 00:24:22,454
That's a C.

496
00:24:22,454 --> 00:24:23,954
And like you're on a road trip.

497
00:24:23,954 --> 00:24:25,494
I'm going to go to the A.

498
00:24:25,494 --> 00:24:30,694
You know, it's brilliant, but that just
showed up like two months ago, you know.

499
00:24:31,454 --> 00:24:32,700
And who else?

500
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:37,480
actually doing a similar thing for Tesla
in Europe because the traditional fast

501
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,680
charging network had been much more
reliable there.

502
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,600
I'm not sure if they're still going to
implement that here, but it's totally

503
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:44,440
there.

504
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,500
It is interesting because there clearly
has also been an improvement recently in

505
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:50,200
public fast charging.

506
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:52,060
Cause I had.

507
00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:52,498
Yeah.

508
00:24:52,498 --> 00:24:53,861
it, but yeah, it's gotten a lot better.

509
00:24:53,861 --> 00:24:54,661
that's the other thing too.

510
00:24:54,661 --> 00:24:55,601
But, but you're totally right.

511
00:24:55,601 --> 00:24:58,681
I mean, my whole thing has always been
with the visa, especially fast charging is

512
00:24:58,681 --> 00:25:01,591
it has to be at least, I mean, this is
true with any technology.

513
00:25:01,591 --> 00:25:06,161
A new technology has to be not just as
good, but better than the technology it's

514
00:25:06,161 --> 00:25:07,691
replacing for it to take off.

515
00:25:07,691 --> 00:25:11,341
And that's kind of where the supercharger
thing, you've got the experience, you plug

516
00:25:11,341 --> 00:25:12,191
in, you walk away.

517
00:25:12,191 --> 00:25:15,601
And obviously you got plug and charge
technology with other vehicles that

518
00:25:15,601 --> 00:25:17,341
essentially is doing the same thing.

519
00:25:17,341 --> 00:25:19,391
And you don't even have to worry about
swiping card.

520
00:25:19,391 --> 00:25:21,340
You just step in and walk away.

521
00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:25,580
And unfortunately, we're now finally just
seeing not only just the implementation on

522
00:25:25,580 --> 00:25:28,520
the charger side, but also with more cars
offering that.

523
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,340
However, exactly your experience can't
what you're talking about.

524
00:25:31,340 --> 00:25:38,180
I went through Wyoming, about a year ago
and it's, it was all kind of level two or

525
00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:40,620
not level two, but, the version two.

526
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,680
Tesla DC fast chargers in it was fine, but
there along the way, there were a couple

527
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,610
electrify America.

528
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:47,450
So I was like, you know what?

529
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:48,020
What the hell?

530
00:25:48,020 --> 00:25:51,196
I'll, I'll just swing in there, see if
it's a little bit quicker.

531
00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:57,596
And that was a terrible mistake because I,
I, it took me one.

532
00:25:57,596 --> 00:25:58,806
I was just getting so spoiled.

533
00:25:58,806 --> 00:26:02,436
Cause I done about, on that trip, I was
doing about 800 miles a day.

534
00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:07,396
And so I just been spoiled about the, you
just pull in, plug it in, and then I'd be

535
00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:08,406
line it to the bathroom.

536
00:26:08,406 --> 00:26:11,956
And so here I kind of plug in, I already
had the pass and everything in the app

537
00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:12,808
download.

538
00:26:13,394 --> 00:26:16,974
want to go to the bathroom, but you have
25 minutes to turn the thing on.

539
00:26:16,974 --> 00:26:17,212
Yeah.

540
00:26:17,212 --> 00:26:17,762
Right, right.

541
00:26:17,762 --> 00:26:21,912
And like, okay, this will just work like
it just like pumping gas and I'll and I'll

542
00:26:21,912 --> 00:26:26,126
Yeah, no another experience where it was
not

543
00:26:26,126 --> 00:26:26,876
insane to me.

544
00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:31,006
I mean, it's like, okay, like the Iona, I
think it's called the network that's

545
00:26:31,006 --> 00:26:35,326
coming the joint venture, Hyundai and BMW
and GM.

546
00:26:35,326 --> 00:26:40,606
But it's insane that it took this long
that like that these companies were so out

547
00:26:40,606 --> 00:26:41,116
to lunch.

548
00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:46,426
They're like, yeah, we'll just make people
buy a $70 ,000 car and don't really know

549
00:26:46,426 --> 00:26:47,326
how they'll charge it.

550
00:26:47,326 --> 00:26:49,366
Where I've been saying this since

551
00:26:49,366 --> 00:26:53,966
since 2013, the smartest thing Tesla did
was the supercharger network.

552
00:26:53,966 --> 00:26:59,386
I didn't really get that it would be so
much better than other, I knew other

553
00:26:59,386 --> 00:27:01,246
charging solutions would come.

554
00:27:01,306 --> 00:27:04,166
The reason I thought it was so good was
you had a bunch of people that had just

555
00:27:04,166 --> 00:27:08,606
bought $100 ,000 science experiments that
all stood around in a circle for 45

556
00:27:08,606 --> 00:27:12,216
minutes staring at each other going, hey,
good job, yeah, you're smart too.

557
00:27:12,216 --> 00:27:14,106
I'm smart, you're smart, we're smart.

558
00:27:14,106 --> 00:27:16,526
And it was like brand building.

559
00:27:16,526 --> 00:27:19,552
But I didn't realize,

560
00:27:21,142 --> 00:27:26,682
I was just, I couldn't, like, I don't get
how, no, again, I believe Electrified

561
00:27:26,682 --> 00:27:31,642
America has turned a corner, but I just
couldn't believe how they could be so bad

562
00:27:31,642 --> 00:27:32,312
for so long.

563
00:27:32,312 --> 00:27:35,822
And the EV go, it seemed to have like
taken up Electrified America's horrible

564
00:27:35,822 --> 00:27:38,602
old mantle of like, we're the worst, you
know?

565
00:27:38,602 --> 00:27:41,822
But that said like ChargePoint, I was at a
place last night, three ChargePoint

566
00:27:41,822 --> 00:27:44,022
chargers, all broken with signs on them.

567
00:27:44,022 --> 00:27:46,682
Like we're broken, meaning they're just
never getting fixed.

568
00:27:46,682 --> 00:27:49,028
But I think, yeah.

569
00:27:49,028 --> 00:27:53,768
ChargePoint business model makes it so
difficult for those to ever be replaced.

570
00:27:54,328 --> 00:27:55,762
and yeah.

571
00:27:55,762 --> 00:27:57,802
like F that, you know.

572
00:27:58,482 --> 00:28:01,142
So yeah, anyways, it's comical.

573
00:28:01,142 --> 00:28:05,642
But I think like I said, Electro America
in particular has seemed to turn a corner.

574
00:28:05,642 --> 00:28:11,362
But you know, one step forward, two steps
back, Tesla, you know, they fired all 500

575
00:28:11,362 --> 00:28:13,402
people that work for the supercharger
department.

576
00:28:13,402 --> 00:28:18,862
So it's like, what, you know, and I was
talking to people at like GM, who were

577
00:28:18,862 --> 00:28:22,870
like, there was no one for us to call,
like we wanted to, to, to

578
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:25,070
call someone to like get this going.

579
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:28,050
We're going to switch GM products over to
the Tesla.

580
00:28:28,050 --> 00:28:29,530
We couldn't get ahold of anybody.

581
00:28:29,530 --> 00:28:33,390
And I know in Germany, they're having
board meetings like, should we be

582
00:28:33,390 --> 00:28:34,620
switching to NACS?

583
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:38,330
Like what's the actual advantage besides
ubiquity?

584
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:39,910
It's slower.

585
00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:44,490
So it's still the first inning.

586
00:28:44,550 --> 00:28:45,492
It's the wild.

587
00:28:45,492 --> 00:28:45,992
I don't know.

588
00:28:45,992 --> 00:28:52,172
I use, I did a road trip, in the UK using
CCS chargers and it wasn't too bad, but,

589
00:28:52,172 --> 00:28:57,372
just the inherent, I think also going back
to that example of like trying to make the

590
00:28:57,372 --> 00:29:01,432
new technology easier for everyone, just
having one plug that works for AC and DC

591
00:29:01,432 --> 00:29:05,952
and just the size of it makes it so much
easier for accessibility and that stuff

592
00:29:05,952 --> 00:29:10,492
that I don't, whether it's the invest in
Tesla supercharger network or not, I think

593
00:29:10,492 --> 00:29:13,916
just inherently that design will be a big.

594
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:18,310
plus for the end user experience,
especially with some of the, yeah.

595
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:21,070
was a way better technology than VHS.

596
00:29:21,270 --> 00:29:22,610
Tesla had it.

597
00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,270
They fired everybody right at this
critical point.

598
00:29:25,270 --> 00:29:26,992
Like they might've...

599
00:29:26,992 --> 00:29:28,022
fair, they didn't fire everyone.

600
00:29:28,022 --> 00:29:31,692
They just fired the business development
side and they,

601
00:29:31,986 --> 00:29:33,666
who worked for Supercharger.

602
00:29:33,666 --> 00:29:35,176
Every single employee fired them.

603
00:29:35,176 --> 00:29:40,546
not the actual like people working or
doing the manager the live updating.

604
00:29:40,546 --> 00:29:43,336
That's what I've heard from people that
were still there that it's like

605
00:29:43,336 --> 00:29:45,840
essentially and I it sounds like

606
00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:48,180
No, no, he, he cleaned it.

607
00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:51,510
He hired some back, but I also heard
that's going to be, those are temporary

608
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:57,869
hire backs even because these were like,
you know, whatever, you know, you know,

609
00:29:57,869 --> 00:30:01,050
high management people that got hired back
to like keep the lights on in the

610
00:30:01,050 --> 00:30:01,430
department.

611
00:30:01,430 --> 00:30:02,680
And they're like miserable.

612
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,090
It's.

613
00:30:04,450 --> 00:30:04,856
It's.

614
00:30:04,856 --> 00:30:06,515
to, it's been a little bit of it.

615
00:30:06,515 --> 00:30:08,176
They did hire like they did.

616
00:30:08,176 --> 00:30:13,056
He did let go like a lot of the people who
were doing the, site kind of development

617
00:30:13,056 --> 00:30:13,696
and that stuff.

618
00:30:13,696 --> 00:30:18,496
But as far as like the actual management
and upkeep of the supercharger, that team

619
00:30:18,496 --> 00:30:20,316
was still there, that part of it.

620
00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:21,602
And now they've slowly.

621
00:30:21,602 --> 00:30:25,902
I heard it as everybody in Supercharger
was groomed out and everybody in new model

622
00:30:25,902 --> 00:30:28,302
development was groomed out.

623
00:30:28,422 --> 00:30:30,212
And it's just crazy.

624
00:30:30,212 --> 00:30:31,802
It's just, I just don't get it.

625
00:30:31,802 --> 00:30:32,112
Yeah.

626
00:30:32,112 --> 00:30:34,762
It's just, it's like what, you know?

627
00:30:34,762 --> 00:30:37,922
And again, you don't have to switch.

628
00:30:38,622 --> 00:30:39,802
Yeah.

629
00:30:40,122 --> 00:30:40,724
Yeah.

630
00:30:40,724 --> 00:30:44,164
they had actually announced a bunch of
technologies.

631
00:30:44,164 --> 00:30:48,024
I mean, I do think a big part of it was
just kind of like him firing the person

632
00:30:48,024 --> 00:30:51,344
because they didn't want to make the
cutbacks as like what was being said, but

633
00:30:51,344 --> 00:30:52,574
there were also a lot.

634
00:30:52,574 --> 00:30:55,144
What was interesting was there were
actually a lot of Tesla product

635
00:30:55,144 --> 00:30:58,144
announcements last year that we just never
saw.

636
00:30:58,144 --> 00:30:59,294
And I do kind of.

637
00:30:59,294 --> 00:30:59,774
does it.

638
00:30:59,774 --> 00:31:01,520
I mean, you know, look, yeah.

639
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,680
no, I mean, I mean, it's one thing like to
that's a fair point, like the Cybertruck,

640
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,640
all that stuff, obviously, yeah, took one
and then they do deliver it.

641
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,200
But there was like, they alluded to a
wireless charger, they alluded to like

642
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,420
some new charging technology, they allude
to other stuff.

643
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:16,640
And then it just never got anywhere.

644
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,040
And he probably was distracted with
Twitter and everything else.

645
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:24,700
But it does seem like there may have been
a change, good or bad, with him kind of

646
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:29,510
like coming in to get things for this next
version.

647
00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:31,144
I hope that's the case.

648
00:31:31,164 --> 00:31:34,554
Just because I like to see good
competition, but we'll see.

649
00:31:34,554 --> 00:31:35,544
I don't know.

650
00:31:36,124 --> 00:31:40,164
It's definitely been an interesting few
months with all of the kind of charging

651
00:31:40,164 --> 00:31:41,558
space, unfortunately.

652
00:31:41,558 --> 00:31:41,978
Yeah.

653
00:31:41,978 --> 00:31:45,238
No, but again, like, you know, you think
about it right now, if you're every other

654
00:31:45,238 --> 00:31:49,098
OEM, well, Hey dude, we're already doing
CCS.

655
00:31:49,098 --> 00:31:50,758
Why are we switching?

656
00:31:50,758 --> 00:31:55,558
You know, like we don't have to switch
that, you know, like, so I just think it

657
00:31:55,558 --> 00:32:01,138
was, it was just like, yeah, you know,
it's like, Hey, my car and you know, CCS

658
00:32:01,138 --> 00:32:04,098
charges faster than, than, than, than any
CS.

659
00:32:04,098 --> 00:32:05,428
Like, you know, sure.

660
00:32:05,428 --> 00:32:06,716
There's a potential.

661
00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:10,196
stand, like the actual J 3 ,400 charges
faster.

662
00:32:10,196 --> 00:32:14,336
That's the problem is none of those are
actually in implementation right now.

663
00:32:14,336 --> 00:32:14,882
Yeah.

664
00:32:14,882 --> 00:32:15,482
You know what I'm saying?

665
00:32:15,482 --> 00:32:21,262
Like, you know, I've seen, God, I had a
Lucid that was charging it like something

666
00:32:21,262 --> 00:32:22,122
ridiculous.

667
00:32:22,122 --> 00:32:25,262
It was like over 300 kilowatts.

668
00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:26,542
It was flying.

669
00:32:26,542 --> 00:32:28,142
The thing was insane.

670
00:32:28,342 --> 00:32:29,832
You know, Tesla can't do that.

671
00:32:29,832 --> 00:32:32,572
You know, the NACS that I've seen can't do
that yet.

672
00:32:32,572 --> 00:32:34,682
You know, it was possible, but where are
they?

673
00:32:34,682 --> 00:32:39,242
So it's just this real self -inflicted
gunshot wound of like, why would you do

674
00:32:39,242 --> 00:32:40,012
that now?

675
00:32:40,012 --> 00:32:41,390
You know, it's like...

676
00:32:42,038 --> 00:32:49,778
You know, again, right now, the only
vehicles that come with a native NACS port

677
00:32:49,778 --> 00:32:50,538
is a Tesla.

678
00:32:50,538 --> 00:32:54,438
Everyone else is still using CCS and like,
yeah, boy, you'd save us a lot of money if

679
00:32:54,438 --> 00:32:56,678
we just left it CCS.

680
00:32:57,278 --> 00:32:58,868
You know, they really would.

681
00:32:58,868 --> 00:33:01,918
Customers, you know, CCS customers, they
don't care.

682
00:33:01,918 --> 00:33:05,238
You know, they, yes, sure, it'd be nice to
have the access to the supercharger

683
00:33:05,238 --> 00:33:06,208
network, but guess what?

684
00:33:06,208 --> 00:33:08,378
I got an adapter, it works fine.

685
00:33:08,438 --> 00:33:10,750
So that's, it's a weird time.

686
00:33:10,750 --> 00:33:13,200
I mean, I, for sure.

687
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,240
I don't think there's an argument there.

688
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:15,970
Good or bad.

689
00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:17,620
It's become weird times.

690
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,800
but I, I, I don't know.

691
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,930
I think it's, I'm kind of torn.

692
00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:26,700
I I've used both, and J 1772.

693
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:32,480
and I just, I do think that the one kind
of plug that works for anything, whether

694
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,120
it be AC or DC is just a better user
experience and just kind of simplifies a

695
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,908
lot of things for people who are trying to
make the switch.

696
00:33:40,822 --> 00:33:45,142
But again, you know, beta max was a better
technology than VHS.

697
00:33:45,341 --> 00:33:52,262
You know, the porn industry likes VHS and
that, you know, it's just, it's, it's

698
00:33:52,262 --> 00:33:53,542
where you're going to sell the most.

699
00:33:53,542 --> 00:33:55,942
And like, you know, Tesla sales are down.

700
00:33:57,122 --> 00:33:59,162
other EV sales are all up.

701
00:33:59,692 --> 00:34:02,252
there's a lot of CCS like, maybe you don't
switch.

702
00:34:02,252 --> 00:34:04,982
You know, I already, you know, like I
already got a CCS at home.

703
00:34:04,982 --> 00:34:06,652
You know, I don't really want to switch.

704
00:34:06,652 --> 00:34:07,470
You know, so.

705
00:34:07,862 --> 00:34:10,142
It's just weird.

706
00:34:10,142 --> 00:34:11,982
It's just a weird time.

707
00:34:12,572 --> 00:34:17,552
Well, wait, so when you say you have the J
1772, you mean the kind of AC charging

708
00:34:17,552 --> 00:34:20,862
for, yeah, yeah, yeah.

709
00:34:20,862 --> 00:34:21,338
Okay.

710
00:34:21,338 --> 00:34:23,148
the same top plug, doesn't have the two
pin.

711
00:34:23,148 --> 00:34:27,342
I mean, I can go to a fast charger, use
the two pin, but yeah.

712
00:34:31,568 --> 00:34:34,568
no, and it is kind of interesting though,
just looking at all the different

713
00:34:34,568 --> 00:34:36,848
infrastructure and stuff that's been out
there.

714
00:34:37,138 --> 00:34:40,568
you, you kind of mentioned lucid and I
think that their products from an

715
00:34:40,568 --> 00:34:45,188
engineering standpoint had been very
impressive, but then kind of going back to

716
00:34:45,188 --> 00:34:50,048
the software defined vehicle side of stuff
is where there's kind of been a big, at

717
00:34:50,048 --> 00:34:52,268
least in my experience, kind of let down.

718
00:34:52,268 --> 00:34:56,408
And I think you've probably talked to the
team more and probably obviously had more

719
00:34:56,408 --> 00:34:58,018
seat time than I have to.

720
00:34:58,018 --> 00:35:00,188
I'm just kind of curious if you like.

721
00:35:00,188 --> 00:35:04,288
Obviously you have a Rivian for your day
to day vehicle, but like looking at others

722
00:35:04,288 --> 00:35:08,928
kind of in the space, which have been not
even necessarily started, but like what

723
00:35:08,928 --> 00:35:09,188
happened?

724
00:35:09,188 --> 00:35:13,128
The EVs that are kind of out there right
now that you're the most excited about

725
00:35:13,128 --> 00:35:13,578
interesting.

726
00:35:13,578 --> 00:35:17,878
I mean, for me, the big one right now is
the new Porsche Tycon, but,

727
00:35:17,878 --> 00:35:19,458
I haven't experienced it yet.

728
00:35:19,458 --> 00:35:20,818
I'd love to.

729
00:35:20,898 --> 00:35:23,868
I think BMW is kind of smashing it right
now.

730
00:35:23,868 --> 00:35:26,578
Now where they're falling down is their
software.

731
00:35:26,578 --> 00:35:28,618
It's like it's a cluttered mess.

732
00:35:28,618 --> 00:35:29,918
They're central nav screens.

733
00:35:29,918 --> 00:35:33,418
Actually surpass Mercedes is like, I don't
know where anything is.

734
00:35:33,418 --> 00:35:35,238
Can't find it.

735
00:35:35,238 --> 00:35:42,138
But I think BMW though, like man, the i5,
the i7, the iX, solid, good, good

736
00:35:42,138 --> 00:35:42,958
products.

737
00:35:42,958 --> 00:35:44,037
They really are.

738
00:35:44,918 --> 00:35:50,338
You know lucid I mean, you know the the
the range to speak for itself and they did

739
00:35:50,338 --> 00:35:55,318
do like a pretty big Software update that
did fix a lot of it It's it's still not

740
00:35:55,318 --> 00:35:58,278
good enough and I think they know it's not
good enough and they I think they're

741
00:35:58,278 --> 00:36:02,358
really scrambling to get gravity out the
door But like again, you know boy when

742
00:36:02,358 --> 00:36:06,098
gravity comes I think Peter was saying
there's some scenario where maybe it's

743
00:36:06,098 --> 00:36:07,838
gonna get like six kilometers.

744
00:36:07,838 --> 00:36:13,678
Sorry six miles a Kilowatt, you know,
which is like that's like my riving gets

745
00:36:13,678 --> 00:36:14,774
to you know, that's

746
00:36:14,774 --> 00:36:16,894
That's efficient.

747
00:36:18,014 --> 00:36:21,014
And they're starting to license their
hardware.

748
00:36:21,674 --> 00:36:26,454
And it's just unbeatable from that
perspective.

749
00:36:26,554 --> 00:36:30,654
So yeah, their software, it's always been
the weak spot of the car.

750
00:36:30,654 --> 00:36:32,054
It's not the hardware.

751
00:36:32,614 --> 00:36:35,814
But it's not like Fisker where they just
didn't work at all.

752
00:36:35,814 --> 00:36:38,014
It's just, yeah.

753
00:36:39,158 --> 00:36:43,578
I think Mercedes, the people that own
them, they really enjoy them and they

754
00:36:43,578 --> 00:36:46,418
actually are very solid EVs.

755
00:36:49,338 --> 00:36:52,458
Some of the Audis are pretty good, some
are pretty old.

756
00:36:52,718 --> 00:36:59,538
Yeah, I mean, Tycon, they just announced
today the new e -tron GT and the RS e

757
00:36:59,538 --> 00:37:02,678
-tron GT, like great looking things.

758
00:37:02,678 --> 00:37:06,918
And finally, they're gonna have some range
and a lot of power.

759
00:37:06,918 --> 00:37:08,918
So that's interesting.

760
00:37:08,918 --> 00:37:15,498
The one actually probably impressed me the
most recently, I drove the Nissan Aria.

761
00:37:16,778 --> 00:37:20,418
Like, damn, that's a fine little vehicle.

762
00:37:21,078 --> 00:37:22,578
Yeah.

763
00:37:22,578 --> 00:37:23,616
Hey buddy.

764
00:37:23,616 --> 00:37:26,056
the, it almost just doesn't seem like a
Nissan.

765
00:37:26,056 --> 00:37:30,656
Not, I don't mean that as it,
aesthetically and the interior wise, it's

766
00:37:30,656 --> 00:37:33,816
pretty different than a lot of the stuff
that they've offered at least recently.

767
00:37:33,816 --> 00:37:35,316
And it's not a bad product.

768
00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:39,666
I think it's just too expensive right now
compared to other things.

769
00:37:39,836 --> 00:37:42,286
but it's definitely a really unique.

770
00:37:42,286 --> 00:37:46,486
they have a wide range and they have a
front wheel drive version that's in the

771
00:37:46,486 --> 00:37:52,226
40s and it's kind of in line with like an
Ioniq 5, you know, or EV6 or whatever.

772
00:37:52,226 --> 00:37:53,386
And like, that's pretty nice.

773
00:37:53,386 --> 00:37:57,466
Plus they have these like banger ludicrous
lease deals that are happening.

774
00:37:57,966 --> 00:38:00,976
And, you know, I was impressed.

775
00:38:00,976 --> 00:38:01,588
I was just like...

776
00:38:01,588 --> 00:38:05,588
been, I haven't looked at it too recently,
so it may have been just kind of the first

777
00:38:05,588 --> 00:38:07,642
few versions when I look back there.

778
00:38:07,642 --> 00:38:11,202
I mean the one I had was definitely the
whatever they called it the you know, e

779
00:38:11,202 --> 00:38:15,022
-force plus platinum double triple
whatever but it was I think it was like 55

780
00:38:15,022 --> 00:38:17,742
,000 but it was 400 horsepower.

781
00:38:17,742 --> 00:38:19,742
Zero to 60 was quoted at 4 .8.

782
00:38:19,742 --> 00:38:25,882
Killer interior drove terrific wonderful
ride and I'm like this is great like you

783
00:38:25,882 --> 00:38:32,102
know if you were to buy a $55 ,000 Murano
or Pathfinder like you know, it's like CVT

784
00:38:32,102 --> 00:38:33,046
Def.

785
00:38:33,046 --> 00:38:37,686
you know, just, just, you know, and this
was just so much better.

786
00:38:38,156 --> 00:38:42,186
so I was very impressed by that, you know,
and again, we keep, dancing around the

787
00:38:42,186 --> 00:38:46,886
Koreans, but like, boy, you know, are they
up to something and are they making nice

788
00:38:46,886 --> 00:38:47,326
products?

789
00:38:47,326 --> 00:38:50,076
You know, Ioniq five, EV six are good.

790
00:38:50,076 --> 00:38:54,906
Ioniq nine needs, some suspension work.

791
00:38:54,906 --> 00:38:58,646
And, again, they're not really true
software defined vehicles yet.

792
00:38:58,646 --> 00:39:02,198
There's still a lot of like
unreprogrammable buttons.

793
00:39:02,198 --> 00:39:05,658
Which will just limit their ability to
update them and make them better.

794
00:39:05,658 --> 00:39:09,332
But, they're mostly there.

795
00:39:09,332 --> 00:39:12,652
yeah, I think there's something to be said
for like, sometimes people complain about

796
00:39:12,652 --> 00:39:16,592
like Tesla and even to an extent raving
about like being too touchscreen focused

797
00:39:16,592 --> 00:39:19,932
and I don't have an issue with it, but I
totally get that understanding and

798
00:39:19,932 --> 00:39:21,332
definitely people abuse it.

799
00:39:21,332 --> 00:39:24,732
But it is kind of funny when you look at a
lot of the high end and key of stuff where

800
00:39:24,732 --> 00:39:27,252
it is kind of almost the opposite where
it's like, yeah, there's probably a few of

801
00:39:27,252 --> 00:39:29,558
these buttons you guys could have gone rid
of.

802
00:39:29,558 --> 00:39:33,928
And again, it's only as good as a software
program.

803
00:39:33,928 --> 00:39:35,718
So I'll give you an example.

804
00:39:36,938 --> 00:39:43,458
So the Rivian from day one, one of the big
complaints that I made and we all made as

805
00:39:43,458 --> 00:39:47,318
an owner, I don't really pay attention to
it, but the complaints always made by

806
00:39:47,318 --> 00:39:49,108
reviewers is like, what's with these
vents?

807
00:39:49,108 --> 00:39:53,198
Why do I have to go to the screen to
position a point events?

808
00:39:54,018 --> 00:39:55,918
Well, new update that's coming.

809
00:39:55,918 --> 00:39:57,276
So the new truck.

810
00:39:58,006 --> 00:39:59,096
There's presets.

811
00:39:59,096 --> 00:40:02,646
So you know how you and your wife are
probably different sizes and when you get

812
00:40:02,646 --> 00:40:05,186
in the car, you adjust the seat, right?

813
00:40:05,186 --> 00:40:09,026
Well, my wife hates cold air blowing on
her face.

814
00:40:09,026 --> 00:40:12,276
I die in a car without cold air blowing on
her face.

815
00:40:12,276 --> 00:40:14,125
And when we get in the car, it's a
constant fight.

816
00:40:14,125 --> 00:40:17,066
Whoever's driving, moving the vents
around.

817
00:40:17,066 --> 00:40:20,246
Presets, by the way, the presets loaded to
your phone.

818
00:40:20,326 --> 00:40:26,466
So my setting would be cold vents in my
face when I get in the car and then she's

819
00:40:26,466 --> 00:40:27,382
in the passenger seat.

820
00:40:27,382 --> 00:40:32,882
put the vents somewhere where she likes
them opposite for when her phone is in the

821
00:40:32,882 --> 00:40:34,108
driver's seat.

822
00:40:34,108 --> 00:40:36,428
Well, that's, that's kind of interesting
because that, yeah, it's been that way in

823
00:40:36,428 --> 00:40:40,768
the test was for awhile and it's totally
tied to like whoever's profile, whoever's

824
00:40:40,768 --> 00:40:44,538
driving the car and, but, but it, but it's
exactly what you're talking about.

825
00:40:44,538 --> 00:40:49,188
It's something that can be changed later
with software to find, but it is, it, it

826
00:40:49,188 --> 00:40:50,878
reminds me of something I did want to ask
you.

827
00:40:50,878 --> 00:40:55,848
And that is I have seen so many, car
reviewers kind of complain about stuff

828
00:40:55,848 --> 00:40:56,268
like that.

829
00:40:56,268 --> 00:41:00,008
And I, I think that use case you're
talking about is it makes sense where it's

830
00:41:00,008 --> 00:41:04,108
like, when you got the car, that is
annoying going between different drivers.

831
00:41:04,124 --> 00:41:08,664
but there's been so many kinds of things
with, whether it's electric or not, but

832
00:41:08,664 --> 00:41:12,004
kind of go into the touch screens too,
where, yeah, you have to kind of go in

833
00:41:12,004 --> 00:41:17,344
there once to change the, where you prefer
the, the air coming out.

834
00:41:17,344 --> 00:41:20,004
But then after, I mean, and maybe, yeah,
it's a little inconvenient, but once

835
00:41:20,004 --> 00:41:23,364
you've done that, I have not changed it in
my car in like two years.

836
00:41:23,364 --> 00:41:28,964
And do you think that there is kind of an
issue with traditional car reviewers being

837
00:41:28,964 --> 00:41:33,844
able to successfully go not only to
electric vehicles, but I think.

838
00:41:33,916 --> 00:41:35,286
with a lot of these vehicles.

839
00:41:35,286 --> 00:41:39,956
It's like, you can't really get it in a 24
hour or even 48 hour thing.

840
00:41:39,956 --> 00:41:41,956
It's like, you almost have to have it with
a week.

841
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:45,936
I mean, you can, but I think there's so
many things I've seen about like negative

842
00:41:45,936 --> 00:41:46,826
reviews about cars.

843
00:41:46,826 --> 00:41:49,416
I was like, well, yeah, that, that would
suck if it was like a rental car or you

844
00:41:49,416 --> 00:41:51,756
had to use it for a day or two.

845
00:41:51,756 --> 00:41:55,062
But if it's like your personal vehicle,
then yeah, you never changed this.

846
00:41:55,062 --> 00:41:58,242
Yeah, I think there will always be some of
that.

847
00:41:58,242 --> 00:41:59,422
There will always be some of that.

848
00:41:59,422 --> 00:42:03,068
But I do think Kyle Connor made this point
and.

849
00:42:03,068 --> 00:42:03,898
Yeah, he's great.

850
00:42:03,898 --> 00:42:05,142
We've had him on before.

851
00:42:05,142 --> 00:42:10,762
Yeah, I never, he made this point and he
was very just, you know, he has a very

852
00:42:10,762 --> 00:42:15,342
succinct way of speaking, but he, you
know, unless he's going on for nine hours

853
00:42:15,342 --> 00:42:19,522
about a battery, a thermal state, but he
just said, most car reviewers don't

854
00:42:19,522 --> 00:42:21,022
understand EVs.

855
00:42:21,022 --> 00:42:22,242
And it really stuck with me.

856
00:42:22,242 --> 00:42:26,882
I've been having fights with people where
they're like, man, you know what I love

857
00:42:26,882 --> 00:42:29,422
about the Mach E it's got an on -off
switch.

858
00:42:29,422 --> 00:42:31,262
I'm like, why do you love that?

859
00:42:31,262 --> 00:42:31,798
Like,

860
00:42:31,798 --> 00:42:33,448
What if your phone had an on -off switch?

861
00:42:33,448 --> 00:42:35,318
How stupid would that be?

862
00:42:35,598 --> 00:42:40,198
The best thing in the world is you just
sit in the car and it's ready to go.

863
00:42:40,858 --> 00:42:46,058
This Nissan Aria, turn it on and it would
take five seconds for the radio to wake up

864
00:42:46,058 --> 00:42:47,918
and you just scream.

865
00:42:48,198 --> 00:42:50,238
Yeah, it's just like, ooh.

866
00:42:50,238 --> 00:42:52,258
You're just wasting your life away.

867
00:42:52,258 --> 00:42:54,628
Whereas Rivian, you just jump in and go.

868
00:42:54,628 --> 00:42:55,858
Tesla, you jump in and go.

869
00:42:55,858 --> 00:42:56,928
Lucid, you try to.

870
00:42:56,928 --> 00:42:58,848
Lucid's still like a 10 second mark.

871
00:42:58,848 --> 00:43:01,078
They're getting better, but yeah.

872
00:43:01,206 --> 00:43:08,166
And, but again, you read a lot of reviews
and they talk about how like, it was hard

873
00:43:08,166 --> 00:43:08,836
to charge.

874
00:43:08,836 --> 00:43:11,146
It's like, well, it's hard to charge
because you don't have a home charger.

875
00:43:11,146 --> 00:43:13,826
Like if you're going to buy the thing, you
would have a home charger.

876
00:43:13,826 --> 00:43:17,846
How fast did it charge relative to other
things in the segment once you got it

877
00:43:17,846 --> 00:43:18,606
plugged in?

878
00:43:18,606 --> 00:43:19,946
So I definitely agree.

879
00:43:19,946 --> 00:43:28,106
There's a lot of ignorance from my
colleagues and myself too.

880
00:43:28,106 --> 00:43:30,422
I'm, you know, I wish I knew more.

881
00:43:30,422 --> 00:43:32,516
about electric vehicles.

882
00:43:32,516 --> 00:43:36,016
think, I think that's what's been really
interesting about even watching both of

883
00:43:36,016 --> 00:43:40,696
you guys on the inevitable podcast, but it
is very clear, like progressing through

884
00:43:40,696 --> 00:43:41,106
the episodes.

885
00:43:41,106 --> 00:43:44,736
You guys have such a deep knowledge of
cars and the car industry, and especially

886
00:43:44,736 --> 00:43:48,456
like combustion vehicles, but with
electric vehicles, there's a lot of new

887
00:43:48,456 --> 00:43:48,996
things.

888
00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:52,876
And then just like these recent examples
of sound about like vehicle degree, like

889
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:54,596
there's a whole new universe.

890
00:43:54,596 --> 00:43:59,456
And it's one thing when I see like a
journalist, like say kilowatt instead of

891
00:43:59,456 --> 00:44:01,588
kilowatt hour and like, that's really
annoying.

892
00:44:01,628 --> 00:44:07,738
But I am kind of curious, like, what has
been the best way for you as a kind of

893
00:44:07,738 --> 00:44:11,428
traditional card journalist making this
change into the EV space and learn these

894
00:44:11,428 --> 00:44:11,908
things?

895
00:44:11,908 --> 00:44:15,988
Like, what do you think the other writers
or others need to do out there?

896
00:44:15,988 --> 00:44:20,268
Or is it just like, there just isn't an
interest from them in doing that maybe.

897
00:44:20,268 --> 00:44:22,578
Or is it just a lot to take on?

898
00:44:22,578 --> 00:44:26,378
yeah, I mean, there's some of that for
sure.

899
00:44:27,538 --> 00:44:37,158
but I think, you know, too few, car
journalists buy new cars too few.

900
00:44:38,078 --> 00:44:43,838
you know, Ed, my cause, you know, famously
is like, I buy a used Cayenne 2017

901
00:44:43,838 --> 00:44:44,438
Cayenne.

902
00:44:44,438 --> 00:44:45,038
Yeah.

903
00:44:45,038 --> 00:44:46,318
Support your industry, man.

904
00:44:46,318 --> 00:44:48,958
Like I, I buy new cars.

905
00:44:49,418 --> 00:44:50,422
and so I think.

906
00:44:50,422 --> 00:44:56,122
Too few buy new cars and then of the
minority that does, too few are EVs.

907
00:44:56,122 --> 00:45:02,962
And I'm not saying you have to own an EV,
but I think you really, if you're gonna

908
00:45:03,742 --> 00:45:07,382
review cars for a living, get a home
charger because that's the experience that

909
00:45:07,382 --> 00:45:11,542
the owners have is I wake up when I want
to with a full battery.

910
00:45:11,542 --> 00:45:14,112
I used to think I had to keep my battery
charged.

911
00:45:14,112 --> 00:45:17,022
Now I'm like, yeah, leave it at 20%, who
cares?

912
00:45:17,022 --> 00:45:19,302
I'll charge it when I need to.

913
00:45:19,478 --> 00:45:25,258
But again, that's the owner experience,
especially as you learn more.

914
00:45:25,258 --> 00:45:28,658
And then again, once it's still a few
years away from mainstream, but once bi

915
00:45:28,658 --> 00:45:32,218
-directional charging really gets going,
it's like, I'm leaving my battery fricking

916
00:45:32,218 --> 00:45:36,758
empty because maybe someone's gonna wanna
pay me to put electricity into it for a

917
00:45:36,758 --> 00:45:37,778
few minutes.

918
00:45:38,158 --> 00:45:41,568
It's rapidly changing.

919
00:45:41,568 --> 00:45:42,192
But anyways, yeah.

920
00:45:42,192 --> 00:45:47,752
it, it is kind of a, I mean, it's, it's a
area that I'm really fascinated with and

921
00:45:47,752 --> 00:45:51,732
has had a lot of discussions, especially
as someone who kind of like to worked in

922
00:45:51,732 --> 00:45:54,412
the renewable space about starting like a
decade ago.

923
00:45:54,412 --> 00:45:58,712
However, I think in some ways, I think
we're finally starting to see some of the

924
00:45:58,712 --> 00:46:01,032
VDG stuff that's been talked about for the
last five years.

925
00:46:01,032 --> 00:46:05,452
But I think part of the problem was, like
obviously Tesla kind of was one of the

926
00:46:05,452 --> 00:46:09,352
first ones not necessarily to come out
with VDG, but obviously battery backup and

927
00:46:09,352 --> 00:46:10,748
stuff they offered at home.

928
00:46:10,748 --> 00:46:15,668
And that started like getting a lot of
gears turning and more so kind of like

929
00:46:15,668 --> 00:46:17,558
Wall Street would say like, this is the
future.

930
00:46:17,558 --> 00:46:19,978
We're going to give them a bunch of money.

931
00:46:20,408 --> 00:46:23,188
probably not the right, right thing, but
give them a bunch of money.

932
00:46:23,188 --> 00:46:25,078
And then that's where like GM and these
others.

933
00:46:25,078 --> 00:46:26,807
And I, I totally get it.

934
00:46:26,807 --> 00:46:32,008
I think it makes sense for a lot of these
companies, to make inroads into that and

935
00:46:32,008 --> 00:46:37,808
make the investment, but it does seem like
there were a large rush to get into that

936
00:46:37,808 --> 00:46:39,612
space and.

937
00:46:39,612 --> 00:46:42,572
good or bad, we're finally starting to see
some of that.

938
00:46:42,572 --> 00:46:49,092
But I think the inherent challenge is just
like how expensive it is to install these,

939
00:46:49,092 --> 00:46:53,112
unfortunately, in homes like in our
example, our house is in the seventies and

940
00:46:53,112 --> 00:46:54,642
we need to do a panel upgrade anyway.

941
00:46:54,642 --> 00:46:56,252
So that's one thing.

942
00:46:56,252 --> 00:47:00,112
But the vast I don't I think that's kind
of the trouble with it is like the vast

943
00:47:00,112 --> 00:47:02,712
majority of people to understand that that
is part of the expense.

944
00:47:02,712 --> 00:47:07,816
And like that's at least anywhere from six
to eight grand.

945
00:47:07,868 --> 00:47:10,074
unfortunately to get done.

946
00:47:10,210 --> 00:47:10,380
Yeah.

947
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:13,770
And then, you know, if you, GM's doing a
smart thing with their GM energy thing

948
00:47:13,770 --> 00:47:18,770
where it's like, Hey, we'll give you bi
-directional charging for 7 ,500 bucks.

949
00:47:18,770 --> 00:47:22,760
By the way, we'll just take your federal
tax credit and do it for free.

950
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,090
You know, it's like, it happens to be 7
,500.

951
00:47:25,090 --> 00:47:28,590
So it's smart, but yeah, no, look, that's
the other problem with EVs.

952
00:47:28,590 --> 00:47:30,370
It's a rich man's game at the moment.

953
00:47:30,370 --> 00:47:34,490
And you know, there are going to be cheap
EVs coming.

954
00:47:35,414 --> 00:47:41,034
But that's like all new technologies, you
know, it's not all, but you know, it's

955
00:47:41,034 --> 00:47:45,234
gonna take time, but you know, eventually,
I mean, the electric automobile will

956
00:47:45,234 --> 00:47:52,514
happen and people will start to see the
benefit of, you know, of spending the

957
00:47:52,514 --> 00:47:52,874
money.

958
00:47:52,874 --> 00:47:54,244
It's like solar panels too.

959
00:47:54,244 --> 00:47:57,414
It's like, no one ever is like, man, that
was a waste of money.

960
00:47:57,414 --> 00:47:58,904
It's like, I'm really glad I did that.

961
00:47:58,904 --> 00:48:02,204
It was, yeah, it cost a little bit, but
it's a good thing, you know.

962
00:48:02,204 --> 00:48:04,502
And so yeah, it just takes time.

963
00:48:04,502 --> 00:48:08,322
And look, like any other market prices
will drop, everything will become cheaper.

964
00:48:08,322 --> 00:48:12,282
But yeah, but again, like, you know, yes.

965
00:48:12,602 --> 00:48:13,284
Yeah.

966
00:48:13,284 --> 00:48:17,964
just so interesting about this is it's a
whole new market that is very utility

967
00:48:17,964 --> 00:48:18,534
dependent.

968
00:48:18,534 --> 00:48:21,744
So you have automakers who have really
never had to work with utilities have to

969
00:48:21,744 --> 00:48:26,544
deal with DC fast charging and then
residential charging, which are themselves

970
00:48:26,544 --> 00:48:27,964
their own beasts.

971
00:48:28,164 --> 00:48:31,364
and then in addition to that, you have to
have a really good software stack to

972
00:48:31,364 --> 00:48:33,944
communicate between all of these things.

973
00:48:33,944 --> 00:48:35,754
which I, once again, I completely agree
with you.

974
00:48:35,754 --> 00:48:38,678
I think the cost will come down and I
think we will get there.

975
00:48:38,678 --> 00:48:39,276
Mm -hmm.

976
00:48:39,276 --> 00:48:43,676
think that there's, I think we're on like
generation one or like the still like

977
00:48:43,676 --> 00:48:45,076
alpha prototype.

978
00:48:45,076 --> 00:48:45,316
Yeah.

979
00:48:45,316 --> 00:48:45,536
Yeah.

980
00:48:45,536 --> 00:48:45,946
Exactly.

981
00:48:45,946 --> 00:48:50,856
Cause this, I think, I think in the
vehicle to grid space, we might be doing

982
00:48:50,856 --> 00:48:51,776
the national anthem.

983
00:48:51,776 --> 00:48:53,656
I don't even know if the game has started.

984
00:48:53,656 --> 00:48:56,936
There's still a little bit of a ways to
go, but I'm sorry.

985
00:48:56,936 --> 00:48:57,985
What else were you going to say there?

986
00:48:57,985 --> 00:49:02,506
it's just, we're early, we're early, you
know, and like all things, it'll improve.

987
00:49:02,506 --> 00:49:06,466
You know, one of the things I did want to
talk to you about though was, you just

988
00:49:06,466 --> 00:49:12,246
bought a new car that wasn't an EV and
yeah.

989
00:49:12,776 --> 00:49:14,566
I think that's really interesting to me.

990
00:49:14,566 --> 00:49:16,766
And that's kind of like almost how we
personally are too.

991
00:49:16,766 --> 00:49:19,706
We have an EV that is like 90 % of our day
-to -day stuff.

992
00:49:19,706 --> 00:49:23,706
And it's kind of the fun, like road trip
thing, but then we have like a fun weekend

993
00:49:23,706 --> 00:49:26,486
vehicle, which is our old Land Rover
Defender.

994
00:49:26,486 --> 00:49:29,994
And I I'm kind of curious, like when you
look at the.

995
00:49:29,994 --> 00:49:31,674
traditional car enthusiast space.

996
00:49:31,674 --> 00:49:35,274
Do you see this as kind of the future of
like, yeah, most people are just going to

997
00:49:35,274 --> 00:49:39,674
have an EV as a daily and then we'll still
have like a combustion vehicle for the

998
00:49:39,674 --> 00:49:43,084
weekends or how do you think that kind of
plays in?

999
00:49:43,084 --> 00:49:48,614
And is that a way maybe to get people to
buy into the idea of EVs who, especially

1000
00:49:48,614 --> 00:49:52,374
coming the car community, I've been
pretty, those that have been adamant

1001
00:49:52,374 --> 00:49:53,316
against it.

1002
00:49:53,316 --> 00:50:01,996
Yeah, I mean my purchase was more like,
the wheels were kind of in motion, like I

1003
00:50:01,996 --> 00:50:05,016
like to have like a little sports car.

1004
00:50:05,016 --> 00:50:08,596
I got a kid, I don't know if a kid needs
you on it, but it's got a back seat.

1005
00:50:08,636 --> 00:50:15,376
And you know, like yeah, the IONIQ 5N, but
it was like 70 grand versus, you know, I

1006
00:50:15,376 --> 00:50:17,116
paid like 46.

1007
00:50:17,296 --> 00:50:18,516
You know, could I have swung it?

1008
00:50:18,516 --> 00:50:22,636
Yeah, probably, but a 46 ,000 was a good
price point for me.

1009
00:50:23,716 --> 00:50:27,996
especially because I'm still paying off
the stupid Rivian, which is a lot more.

1010
00:50:27,996 --> 00:50:31,196
You know, it's just, there's really
weren't any others.

1011
00:50:32,056 --> 00:50:38,156
Yeah, there just weren't any other sporty
EV options at the moment.

1012
00:50:38,216 --> 00:50:41,006
You know, in a few years, I guarantee
there will be, you know what I mean?

1013
00:50:41,006 --> 00:50:45,736
So it was just sort of like, I like
interesting cars.

1014
00:50:45,736 --> 00:50:47,776
I like fun to drive cars.

1015
00:50:49,076 --> 00:50:51,204
You know, like I had an Alfa Julia and
like,

1016
00:50:51,204 --> 00:50:54,844
Yeah, yeah, I probably should have got the
quadrifolia because I you know, Julie was

1017
00:50:54,844 --> 00:51:00,244
cool I didn't really want to drive it ever
because it's kind of a nothing engine For

1018
00:51:00,244 --> 00:51:02,444
me, you know for a lot of people they
really like it.

1019
00:51:02,444 --> 00:51:06,204
It was just like I would've sugar Great
car.

1020
00:51:06,204 --> 00:51:13,104
Yeah great car, but you know, so You know,
is this the last gasoline car new the

1021
00:51:13,104 --> 00:51:13,724
gasoline car?

1022
00:51:13,724 --> 00:51:14,504
I'll probably ever buy.

1023
00:51:14,504 --> 00:51:19,332
Yeah last manual kind of probably
definitely But yeah

1024
00:51:19,332 --> 00:51:20,812
I bought it, I enjoy it.

1025
00:51:20,812 --> 00:51:22,792
That said, it has less than 400 miles on
it.

1026
00:51:22,792 --> 00:51:24,432
I never drive the thing.

1027
00:51:24,432 --> 00:51:28,132
It's just sort of when I don't have a
press car, I need another car.

1028
00:51:30,092 --> 00:51:31,622
I do love it, I do love it.

1029
00:51:31,622 --> 00:51:34,752
I drove it a little yesterday and I'm
like, God, this thing is so good.

1030
00:51:34,752 --> 00:51:37,306
It's just a great to drive vehicle.

1031
00:51:38,154 --> 00:51:41,874
So, I mean, is it just those two vehicles
you have right now?

1032
00:51:41,874 --> 00:51:44,202
And do you, did you kind of get that one?

1033
00:51:44,956 --> 00:51:49,376
a Porsche 914, but that's a long other
episode.

1034
00:51:49,436 --> 00:51:50,586
So one day it might go up.

1035
00:51:50,586 --> 00:51:53,008
Yeah, it's being restored supposedly.

1036
00:51:53,546 --> 00:51:56,006
Now those are pretty popular for electric
conversions.

1037
00:51:56,006 --> 00:51:57,266
Is that something you'd ever do?

1038
00:51:57,266 --> 00:51:59,072
Do you see that as blasphemy?

1039
00:52:00,384 --> 00:52:02,024
definitely not blasphemy.

1040
00:52:02,244 --> 00:52:06,964
I'm thinking about getting it from where
it's living right now and giving it to a

1041
00:52:06,964 --> 00:52:08,894
friend and just getting an EV out of it.

1042
00:52:08,894 --> 00:52:09,344
Yeah.

1043
00:52:09,344 --> 00:52:11,204
I'm thinking about that.

1044
00:52:11,264 --> 00:52:16,344
So, but no, I don't, I don't, I don't see
it as particularly, I mean, it's a 1970,

1045
00:52:16,344 --> 00:52:22,364
like nine 14, like, no, the, the, the, the
80 horsepower, 1 .7 liter, like, what a

1046
00:52:22,364 --> 00:52:23,084
precious thing.

1047
00:52:23,084 --> 00:52:27,424
You know, like it's, it was, it was a, you
know, it was a commodity car that happened

1048
00:52:27,424 --> 00:52:28,575
to be a minute and two seater.

1049
00:52:28,575 --> 00:52:31,075
I mean, to be honest with you, that's why
I've kind of been open to it.

1050
00:52:31,075 --> 00:52:35,125
It's like, there's so many beautiful cars
that just had terrible power trains.

1051
00:52:35,355 --> 00:52:38,695
now for that, it kind of works because it
was so small and light anyway, but that,

1052
00:52:38,695 --> 00:52:41,515
that is kind of where I do think like
converting some of these old ones is kind

1053
00:52:41,515 --> 00:52:41,835
of cool.

1054
00:52:41,835 --> 00:52:45,175
Like if it didn't have some amazing V8 or
something else, like it keeps it on the

1055
00:52:45,175 --> 00:52:46,895
road, which is good for the environment.

1056
00:52:46,895 --> 00:52:50,195
And for a lot of people who may have like
a sentimental connection or got from

1057
00:52:50,195 --> 00:52:52,835
someone else in the family, it's less
maintenance and just kind of a great

1058
00:52:52,835 --> 00:52:53,975
option for them.

1059
00:52:54,109 --> 00:52:55,829
I think it's fine.

1060
00:52:55,909 --> 00:52:59,609
I think my problem with most EV
conversions is that they're level two

1061
00:52:59,609 --> 00:53:01,249
conversions, so you can't fast charge
them.

1062
00:53:01,249 --> 00:53:03,177
So they're just kind of like around town
toys.

1063
00:53:03,177 --> 00:53:05,267
so you would want to road trip one?

1064
00:53:05,267 --> 00:53:06,581
Yeah.

1065
00:53:06,581 --> 00:53:07,081
option.

1066
00:53:07,081 --> 00:53:08,861
It's just, they're not fully there.

1067
00:53:08,861 --> 00:53:14,461
It's just like, like again, I do like an
EV powertrain, but what I think when I'm

1068
00:53:14,461 --> 00:53:16,681
learning, I really like software defined
vehicles.

1069
00:53:16,681 --> 00:53:20,521
I really like like the wild innovation,
you know?

1070
00:53:20,521 --> 00:53:27,081
So, but you know, again, you know, if
electrifying it adds to the driving

1071
00:53:27,081 --> 00:53:28,261
experience, great.

1072
00:53:28,261 --> 00:53:31,461
If it doesn't, eh, keep it gas, who cares?

1073
00:53:31,461 --> 00:53:34,105
But I don't really, to be,

1074
00:53:34,105 --> 00:53:35,685
Really honest, I don't really think about
it.

1075
00:53:35,685 --> 00:53:37,215
I don't care what you do with your own
car.

1076
00:53:37,215 --> 00:53:37,895
It's your car.

1077
00:53:37,895 --> 00:53:38,495
Do what you want.

1078
00:53:38,495 --> 00:53:40,825
It's the new ones that I'm worried about.

1079
00:53:41,125 --> 00:53:41,809
So.

1080
00:53:42,495 --> 00:53:46,175
So kind of with that, I realized we're
kind of coming on in our time.

1081
00:53:46,395 --> 00:53:49,295
I just want to say one, thanks again for
coming on.

1082
00:53:49,295 --> 00:53:53,015
This has been great today and a fun
conversation.

1083
00:53:53,015 --> 00:53:56,795
A lot of different, a lot of different
parts of the EV space right now.

1084
00:53:56,795 --> 00:54:00,555
What, I you've mentioned software defined
vehicles and that's something you talk

1085
00:54:00,555 --> 00:54:04,895
about a lot, but is there anything that we
haven't discussed today that, you really

1086
00:54:04,895 --> 00:54:08,975
do enjoy about electric vehicles that kind
of like stands out or has been something

1087
00:54:08,975 --> 00:54:10,968
that you just didn't expect to enjoy as
much.

1088
00:54:10,968 --> 00:54:16,488
Yeah, you know, I asked, I was talking to
some, some, I drove the, Macan via

1089
00:54:16,488 --> 00:54:20,808
prototype and I was talking with the
Porsche guys and I said, you know, you're

1090
00:54:20,808 --> 00:54:21,888
German engineers.

1091
00:54:21,888 --> 00:54:27,308
You must have a word for yes, you're
adding weight, but at the same time, the

1092
00:54:27,308 --> 00:54:32,458
center of gravity is lowering and that
improves performance by blah amount.

1093
00:54:32,458 --> 00:54:34,988
They go, yes, it's the often faffing or
whatever they said.

1094
00:54:34,988 --> 00:54:40,268
And, and so, and again, maybe, you know,
the Aria kind of, we did cover it a little

1095
00:54:40,268 --> 00:54:41,265
bit, but like.

1096
00:54:42,329 --> 00:54:49,269
Just going EV, if you think about the
Nissan Murano, like, mediocre is a mean

1097
00:54:49,269 --> 00:54:55,269
term, but a middling vehicle, middle of
the pack, well, just going electric, wow,

1098
00:54:55,269 --> 00:54:59,489
suddenly it's just great to drive, the
ride quality was insane, it feels

1099
00:54:59,489 --> 00:55:05,329
luxurious, it's quiet, it's smooth,
there's no horrid CVT or whatever bad

1100
00:55:05,329 --> 00:55:10,069
transmission solution that economy cars
get, or mainstream cars get tasked with,

1101
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:11,321
you really have this like,

1102
00:55:11,321 --> 00:55:13,141
instantly torquey things.

1103
00:55:13,141 --> 00:55:17,401
So it's like, just like RAV4s and
everything going electric.

1104
00:55:17,401 --> 00:55:20,901
Like I said, like the Prius, man, if that
was a fully V, it'd be a fantastic

1105
00:55:20,901 --> 00:55:21,801
vehicle.

1106
00:55:21,801 --> 00:55:26,081
So it's just like your average car is
gonna get so much better.

1107
00:55:26,381 --> 00:55:27,463
And then, you know.

1108
00:55:27,463 --> 00:55:31,323
funny you say that because, one of the
things we talked about in our, previous

1109
00:55:31,323 --> 00:55:35,523
episode was about like the challenges that
allow these older brands, like, especially

1110
00:55:35,523 --> 00:55:39,603
the Germans have like kind of around the
badge engineering when you have the new

1111
00:55:39,603 --> 00:55:42,403
McCann and then there's the Audi
equivalent on it.

1112
00:55:42,403 --> 00:55:45,433
Like their big thing was like, well, we
flipped the motor around too.

1113
00:55:45,433 --> 00:55:48,143
So that kind of gives you more of the
traditional Porsche feeling of that.

1114
00:55:48,143 --> 00:55:49,943
And I haven't driven either.

1115
00:55:49,943 --> 00:55:54,015
So I can't say for sure when or the other,
but do you think that that is.

1116
00:55:54,015 --> 00:55:57,035
something that a lot of these kinds of
brands are struggling with or anything

1117
00:55:57,035 --> 00:56:01,335
that to kind of make that change to like
to differentiate more since so many of

1118
00:56:01,335 --> 00:56:05,745
them have kind of gone to the skateboard
low gravity design across brands.

1119
00:56:05,745 --> 00:56:08,785
I would say, A, I've driven both of them.

1120
00:56:08,785 --> 00:56:10,365
I can't talk about the Audi yet.

1121
00:56:10,365 --> 00:56:16,585
But I would say you look at the Volkswagen
group and you look at, let's say the, it's

1122
00:56:16,585 --> 00:56:19,125
the MLB Evo platform.

1123
00:56:19,125 --> 00:56:20,075
Okay, well, what's that?

1124
00:56:20,075 --> 00:56:26,625
Well, Audi A4 is MLB Evo 2 and so is the
Lamborghini Urus.

1125
00:56:27,225 --> 00:56:31,245
These guys are good at differentiating a
common platform.

1126
00:56:31,385 --> 00:56:33,329
They're really good at it.

1127
00:56:33,989 --> 00:56:38,229
and, I'm not worried about that at all.

1128
00:56:38,569 --> 00:56:40,369
turning the motor around.

1129
00:56:40,369 --> 00:56:48,969
I had some marketing horseshit, but, the,
they did do an excellent job making the

1130
00:56:48,969 --> 00:56:52,349
new Macan EV drive and feel just like
you're driving.

1131
00:56:52,349 --> 00:56:56,789
I would say even less of McCone, but like
a Cayenne, it really does feel like a

1132
00:56:56,789 --> 00:56:57,849
Porsche SUV.

1133
00:56:57,849 --> 00:56:59,229
Very, wow.

1134
00:56:59,229 --> 00:57:03,129
You know, so they're, they're a very good
job at that.

1135
00:57:03,129 --> 00:57:06,109
And it makes more power and it's quieter
and it drives better.

1136
00:57:06,109 --> 00:57:08,129
All the good EV stuff.

1137
00:57:08,409 --> 00:57:10,359
So no, I'm not worried about that at all.

1138
00:57:10,359 --> 00:57:12,189
These guys are the master of that.

1139
00:57:12,189 --> 00:57:13,645
I worry.

1140
00:57:14,207 --> 00:57:18,147
Cause I think one of the other examples we
talked about was how phenomenal of a job

1141
00:57:18,147 --> 00:57:23,207
key and Hyundai have kind of hopped on the
wave of the electric electric cars,

1142
00:57:23,207 --> 00:57:25,197
because no one ever talked about the roar
of a Kia.

1143
00:57:25,197 --> 00:57:26,967
And now you have fun.

1144
00:57:26,967 --> 00:57:28,547
Kia is to drive.

1145
00:57:28,767 --> 00:57:29,105
But it.

1146
00:57:29,105 --> 00:57:33,775
was even like a Genesis, like what sucked
about Genesis was the powertrain.

1147
00:57:33,775 --> 00:57:35,245
Well, make them all electric.

1148
00:57:35,245 --> 00:57:35,945
Great.

1149
00:57:35,945 --> 00:57:43,045
But yeah, no, I think maybe I worry about
like when autonomy becomes more of a

1150
00:57:43,045 --> 00:57:44,025
thing.

1151
00:57:44,185 --> 00:57:50,705
Well, you know, how is the Volkswagen
autonomous software gonna, is it gonna

1152
00:57:50,705 --> 00:57:51,825
drive like a Volkswagen?

1153
00:57:51,825 --> 00:57:53,575
Or is the Porsche gonna drive like a
Porsche?

1154
00:57:53,575 --> 00:57:54,705
You know, like.

1155
00:57:55,065 --> 00:57:57,285
You know, who knows, we'll see.

1156
00:57:57,285 --> 00:58:02,505
But I think as far as like, yeah, like,
you know, differentiating, you can totally

1157
00:58:02,505 --> 00:58:04,025
do it, you know?

1158
00:58:04,025 --> 00:58:09,115
And I mean, you even see it with, I can't
talk about this out.

1159
00:58:09,115 --> 00:58:13,844
But anyways, you can do a lot with
software where you can radically change a

1160
00:58:13,844 --> 00:58:18,325
vehicle with just software.

1161
00:58:18,325 --> 00:58:19,205
You know what I mean?

1162
00:58:19,205 --> 00:58:20,505
I mean, I'll put it like this.

1163
00:58:20,505 --> 00:58:24,505
The Q6 and the SQ6, which have very
different power outputs,

1164
00:58:24,505 --> 00:58:26,665
Same hardware, it's just a software.

1165
00:58:26,665 --> 00:58:30,425
Software says pull more power out of the
battery, spin the motors faster with this

1166
00:58:30,425 --> 00:58:31,385
much throttle input.

1167
00:58:31,385 --> 00:58:33,395
That makes it an SQ6.

1168
00:58:35,135 --> 00:58:38,195
Well, I think that's about as good of a
place to end it on today, Jonny.

1169
00:58:38,195 --> 00:58:39,255
Thank you so much.

1170
00:58:39,255 --> 00:58:42,971
That's been a great conversation and we'll
have to have you get on soon

1171
00:58:48,377 --> 00:58:52,137
That wraps up this episode of the great
connections podcast.

1172
00:58:52,137 --> 00:58:56,117
We hope you enjoyed our conversation with
Jonny Liberman, where we delved into the

1173
00:58:56,117 --> 00:58:59,897
transition to electric vehicles, the
current state of EV charging and the

1174
00:58:59,897 --> 00:59:02,557
fascinating world of software defined
vehicles.

1175
00:59:02,557 --> 00:59:06,137
If you found this episode valuable, please
share it with at least one other listener

1176
00:59:06,137 --> 00:59:07,577
who would enjoy it as well.

1177
00:59:07,577 --> 00:59:11,397
And don't forget to leave a pause review
on our podcast page.

1178
00:59:11,397 --> 00:59:15,477
Your feedback and support helps us
continue to bring you the best in EV news

1179
00:59:15,477 --> 00:59:16,731
and insights.

1180
00:59:16,889 --> 00:59:20,409
Thanks for tuning in and until next week,
this is The Grid Connections podcast

1181
00:59:20,409 --> 00:59:21,173
signing