Good morning, great connections listeners.
In today's episode, we have a special guest joining us, Jonny Lieberman, co
-host of the inevitable podcast and senior features editor at Motor Trend.
We'll be diving deep in the current automotive market, along with challenges
of transitioning to electric vehicles, exploring the current state of EV charging
infrastructure and discussing the overall impact of software defined vehicles for
car owners.
This episode is back with insights and expert perspectives that you won't want to
miss.
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Your support helps us continue to bring you top notch content with that.
Enjoy.
I'm really excited for today's episode.
I'm joined by Jonny Lieberman.
He is the cohost of the inevitable podcast.
I'm sure quite a few are already listening to it, but for those unfamiliar, it's a
podcast looking at the automotive and the transition it's going through for electric
vehicles and electric supporting technology.
Obviously you've been working at MotorTrend and other places for quite a
while Jonny, but just in case anyone isn't familiar, you can just give a quick little
overview of your background
Sure.
Hi there.
I'm Jonny Lieberman.
I am the senior features editor and I'm one of two senior features editor at Motor
Trend.
Kristen Lee is the other one.
I've been at Motor Trend for almost 14 years next month.
Yeah, time flying.
I've been making money writing and talking about cars for 19 years.
Somehow, don't ask.
It's, I would say stay in school kids.
And yeah, I mean, you know, I never thought I would be some,
EV advocate or anything like that.
I, like everybody else, I think I got into this business because I wanted to drive
Lamborghini's really fast and I've done that.
But, you know, suddenly I remembered like it was yesterday back in November of 2012,
this thing called the Tesla Model S showed up and like, wow, if it would have been
gasoline powered, we would have really liked it.
It was a really good car.
And then, you know, like,
you start learning about them and like, boy, they make a lot of sense.
And then you, you know, you kind of like, you know, if you understand, I guess, the
scientific method, you're like, boy, dumping all the CO2 that's buried in the
earth into the atmosphere is going to have dire consequences, not for the planet.
The planet, hey, dinosaurs got wiped out.
Planet was just fine.
It's got a dire consequences for my children and your children and your
children's children and future generations.
Like, boy, if there was a way to curtail that and have really good vehicles at the
same time, that's win -win.
And then you started seeing stuff like Rivians and Lucids.
And to me, it's like game on.
These are better than regular trucks.
This is a better sedan than a regular sedan.
And a lot of that's larger because it's a software defined vehicle with a big
battery that can do a lot of amazing things.
And, you know, do I still love gas cars?
Like, yeah, God, yeah, I just bought one.
So I'm a hypocrite as well, but I'm doing my best.
And yeah, I'm very, and look, the automotive industry is going through the
biggest transition since...
We got off steam You know, I got off horses and so it's fascinating to to be a
witness to it and talk about it gets to talk about it So that's my my intro I'm
also on a podcast with Jerry Seinfeld at times called spikes car radio with this
guy spiked Ferris in this guy's Zuckerman.
It's pretty funny.
So Dabble in comedy, although it's Ostensibly about cars
So comedy is the hobby and then cars is the day to day job.
No, I'm glad you.
Jerry Seinfeld at Pebble Beach again.
So it's.
I just saw the kind of promotion for that.
So I'm definitely looking forward and great work on it.
Well, I think let's just take a couple steps back real quick with just your
background for those kind of listening.
So, how did you originally, you say you've been doing this for like 19 years now.
What, and I see all those guitars behind you.
I get the feeling that writing for kind of car reviews and being in that space
probably wasn't the first job.
What kind of led to getting into that space?
And then I would love to.
I mean, I've told this story a lot and it's, it's a little bit of a pocket for
this point, but like true story.
I turned 30 and I was a, I was a webmaster at an art school and I was so bored.
I, I couldn't even figure out a way to goof off.
And I got to work at like 9 AM and there was just nothing.
I reached the end of the internet.
I couldn't even, I couldn't even screw around.
It was it.
And, and this like voice or this notion hit me and was like, Hey, if you don't get
up out of this chair.
right now and do something else, you're gonna turn 40 and another decade of your
one and only life is gone and you've just wasted it.
And I don't know why I had that realization, I don't know what, but I
immediately that day reached out, there was a website called The Truth About Cars,
which at the time was a one man gig, it was this guy Robert Farago, and he was
like, he used to work for CNN or something, and he was a very good writer,
and he was just...
doing, I really liked his reviews and I wrote him and said, Hey, are you hiring?
And he said, go get a car and review it and we'll see.
You know, and I did.
And, and, and, and, after a little back and forth, he was like, all right, great.
I'll send you a press car.
And the rest is sort of history.
And then like, you know, I worked really hard.
I made no money.
And then five years later, Motor Trend came knocking and, Angus McKenzie said,
Hey, you know, what do you think senior editor, Motor Trend?
You know, I said,
Let me get married first, but the answer is probably yes.
And a couple months, two months after I got married, I started working for Motor
Trend and next month it's 14 years.
So turned into a little bit of a career.
Wow.
And I think that's great to hear because it is such a, important thing to kind of
find what you're passionate about and to like have those realizations about
investing the time and doing that great work.
I'm kind of curious.
Yeah.
feel like a day of work.
Total lie.
It's always work.
I mean, I was grinding to get something like Fisker went bankrupt today.
I was like, I should probably comment on it.
And boy, I didn't want to write that.
And like, you know, misery.
But anyways, but I still, I'm fascinated by the subject matter.
And again, I think what's really cool rather than,
Only the way it used to be is only writing about, okay, here's the new X.
It gets 10 more horsepower and it's, it's 10 millimeters lower.
And the, the, tire inflation sticker has been, moved down two millimeters and the
center of gravity is now, but, it's like, Hey, this thing, it's got four motors and
it can do anything.
You know, it's like, it's wild, you know?
And so, so it's kind of like, I don't know.
I I've been using the metaphor that, you know,
We're at the end of the world series for internal combustion.
We kind of get it.
There's a new Bugatti V16 that's coming.
That'll be pretty cool.
Corvette Z06, most powerful, naturally aspirated V8 ever.
670 horsepower.
By the way, the Lucid Sapphire, it's got three 670 horsepower motors on board.
You know, so it's like, it's just, you know, we're in the first inning, maybe top
of the second or something of the electric car revolution.
And I think what's going to start happening is going to really impress
people.
But yes, there's a hump, a transitory period we have to get over.
But, you know, I haven't written it yet, but I have the headline.
It's the shifting goalposts of the electrification of the automobile.
And I was looking back at an old car.
Yeah.
And I was, thank you.
Don't steal it.
And I was, I was looking at a car driver from 2004 and like, you know, you open it
up and, you know, Chubba's, you know, letter to the editor or whatever, you
know, the editor's notes, like, you know, hybrids suck, you know, page two Brock
Yates, you know, hybrids are a commie plot to take away your rights.
Page three, mathematical proof from, Patrick Boudard.
And I hate to call these guys out my name, but I'm just going to, you know, nuking
Hiroshima was better for the environment than two Priuses, you know, here's, here's
the math.
Yeah.
now, like, man, I don't want to even, I want a hybrid.
Give me a plug -in hybrid.
Like, that's what real enthusiasts want, you know?
So it just moves around.
And...
Why do you think that is?
Is it just kind of like the, as they say, like, you can take the V out of my cold
dead hands kind of like mentality or what is?
Yeah.
Red Dawn the other night speaking of nukes and things coming out of cold dead hands
and John Milius.
What a great movie.
But yeah, I mean, America, we're an extreme country.
You know, we're in this like hyper polarized state.
Yeah, look, we've probably been hyper polarized since before the Civil War,
probably since the founding.
Who knows how they pulled it off.
So somehow, you know, if you're on this side of the aisle, you hate EVs, you know,
and somehow if you're on this side, you love EVs.
And I'm just like, I just love cars.
And you know, the continued possibility of human life on planet earth.
So I, you know, I'm advocating for these things.
And I think a lot of people take their eyes off that prize when it's just like,
it's the CO2 stupid.
You know, yes, I think EVs and good software, we can get better vehicles.
And like, it's not there yet for supercars.
Although I've driven the Pinafrina Batista and like,
God, that's good.
But you look at the Rivian R1T, and I am an owner, proud owner, and I pay them
every month.
I wish they would pay me, but I stupidly pay them every month because I bought the
damn thing.
It's better than any other truck.
It's just better, I'm sorry.
And happens to be an EV, you could say that way, or you could say it's really
smart and they used the fact that it has four motors, they're able to do things
that no gasoline vehicle could do.
you know, in terms of like knowing what surface it's on because you're sending X
amount of power to the motor and it gets that much rotation.
And if you send X and get Y, that means grass or that means a rock or that means
gravel.
You can't do that, you know, because you got slip and gears and, and differentials.
Yeah.
different parts, but I, I'm kind of curious.
It is really interesting.
like you said, like there's so much division and kind of this tribal, at least
online.
And I'm always like consistent.
I've done quite a few road trips.
I've got a buddy actually of all things.
he moved out from Oregon a couple of years ago and he lives now in the Midwest
selling, Volvo semi trucks.
And so.
he is always like the best person to talk about just like to get the heartbeat of
what is going on in the central, like it just in the kind of the Midwest in
general, but also like, especially like the trucking community that has so many,
and admittedly like needs like you have to have for like a diesel truck.
And so the skepticism around like hydrogen and electric vehicles, but it is really
interesting to me that, as you're talking about, like the goalposts moving what,
really always seems to even bring down the tribalism is just getting people getting
butts in seats, even though it's kind of like been set forever and just how quickly
that like, if you're going to have a much more fun car with way better features,
it's like, you don't really care what part of the political spectrum it's on,
especially when you're dealing with the day to day.
And I really feel like even then there's maybe some traditional car enthusiasts
that are, I think yelling at the loudest, at least.
in some of the forums, but even then I just feel like the best thing is always
like, and it sounds like that's even how your experience was too.
You kind of got behind the wheel of it.
And even if you just forget that it's electric, the experience of it was just so
much better than what's out there.
Yes.
And to your point, yeah.
Butts and seats is a huge thing.
The other thing is like truckers, long haul truckers, like no more gears.
Really?
That's great.
You know, like maybe it could drive for you.
Wow.
Even better.
You know, like it's, it's a, so yeah, you know,
and especially with, I mean, I'm talking about passenger vehicles, but you're
right.
Like once you start getting into the commercial side, especially we had, one of
the kind of early product managers for Daimler's,
trucking side is it's wild every time a truck has to start and stop and just how
much I'm trying to blank it's but the actual force on the frame and the the
amount of torque that a diesel engine puts on one of these vehicles day to day.
especially when you're driving through like stop and go traffic that with an
electric or even a hydrogen vehicle that just is not even a thought anymore.
And it just seems to be like so many of these things when it comes to the
practicality and the living with it day to day that really makes the difference in
whether you have that skepticism or you're just generally curious that people are
kind of jumping to the other side or at least considering it when they're going to
buy a vehicle.
I hate to even like make it a side thing, but you know, look, a couple of things
like, like one Bob Lutz has one of my favorite quotes was Americans buy
horsepower, but drive torque.
So the way we drive, which is like, you know, jack, rabbiting away from
stoplights, like, EVs are better for that.
you know, and, and, and having, you know, no gears to downshift, like that's, that's
even quicker.
It's great.
And, but then, you know,
The other thing is like, there shouldn't be a side.
It's this false narrative almost.
I think the people you keep saying in the forums, the people yelling loudest are
sort of the people that don't buy new cars anyways.
And if you were to back up a little bit, if you were to back up a little bit, what
you'd find is these are the same people that are like, power windows, that's the
government telling you.
You can't roll up and down.
You got to use a computer to roll your, and I'm, I used to talk to.
Yeah.
And so it's, it's, I think a lot of people that are, don't buy new cars or driving
the narrative, people that buy new cars are like, wait a second.
Like, this thing, this thing can like drive for me and stop and go traffic.
Like I'd like that.
I never have to go to a gas station.
Like, cause 99 % of the time I just go to work, man.
I want to come home and.
Last thing I want to do is like get up early to go get gas or after a long hard
day, stop at a gas.
I can just go home and plug it in.
that sounds heavenly.
You know, so it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, the loud ones, they're not
really building EVs for you.
You know, you're, you're, driving a 50 year old car.
It's, it's, don't worry about it.
No one's taking it away, but like, don't, don't, don't try to impede progress.
If that makes sense.
I'm kind of, yeah.
And well, I'm kind of curious, like you look at some of the brands and globally,
when you talk about like electric vehicles and as you mentioned, hybrids, it just
like the more it seems like electric vehicles are getting better, faster, and
just offer a much better experience all around than hybrids.
And I was in, the new Prius and a couple other things recently that are big
improvements for them.
But if you look at kind of like what the step function is compared to how far
electric vehicles are like coming out with each year.
I am
the Volt, when it came out, went like, I don't know, 40 miles on a charge and then
it got 106 miles per gallon equivalent.
The Prius Prime, 14 years later, goes 40 miles on a charge and gets 106 miles per
gallon.
But the Prime's a great example of what I don't like about plug -in hybrids is like,
I was driving it around, I'm like, boy, this is a really nice EV.
And then 36 miles later, the battery goes dead and the most miserable.
two liter NA Atkinson cycle engine hooked to a CVT turns on.
I'm like, who wants this?
It's a miserable driving experience.
I think like plug -in hybrids kind of give you the worst of both worlds.
You get a bad EV experience and a most miserable gasoline experience.
And yes, you'll have people, no, you don't understand my life.
For me, this is ideal.
And it's like, I would say, look.
Plug -in hybrids and hybrids are supposed to be this transitory step between
gasoline and EVs.
Fine.
Except that EVs are outselling plug -in hybrids.
So if the end of the bridge is doing better than the bridge, like, burn the
bridge, you don't need it, you know?
So that's what I think, but.
it's just like, even from like the engineering perspective of it, just like
the amount of, you're using this, it's a different chemistry mentally, but these
small, batteries that are having a much higher cycle life, you've got a, gas
engine.
That's true.
Yeah.
plug -in hybrid, it's a 16 .7 kilowatt battery.
That's, you know, a lithium ion battery.
Yeah.
And, yeah, it's, you know, I don't know anything about engineering, but look at
Occam's razor.
Like, like what, why would two power trains?
That's crazy.
That's, that's heavy and bad.
are going to love it longer term.
I don't know if you.
Exactly.
Right.
Exactly.
Now you start doing those affirm loans you see all over the place now just for, but,
when you kind of look at what these changes have been, there's obviously the
drive train.
I think that gets a lot of the attention, but I think, I think that's really
interesting that you guys have really focused on the inevitable podcast is then
the software side of it.
And that user experience and that really does kind of make it a night and day
difference.
and I think there's an element where people say like, that's just kind of like,
it's nothing new.
It's it's what like, like you're saying power windows or some new, just a new
version of something they can charge you.
But in, I think, I think there is a stair step function with having an EV and that
kind of charge at home functionality and being able to do that with an app that's
reliable.
But then yeah, you get like dog mode, you get all these other things that you really
just couldn't do.
with a combustion engine vehicle.
it's, you know, so we use the term, software defined vehicle, SDVs and yeah,
that's, that's the game changer.
and Tesla stumbled upon it.
They, they, you know, remember when they were trying to get the model, S out the
door, nobody would work with them.
Nobody would give them parts.
They're like, Hey, we'd like some, I don't know, you know, you know, you know, window
motors.
Nope.
So they'd like make their own.
And so like why, the way traditional cars work is like your window motors come in
from Bosch and your graphics card comes in from Nvidia and this comes in from another
manufacturer.
Well, everyone's got a screen.
Yeah.
But like, so your engine control system comes from Johnson controls.
Right.
different languages and then you got to make it.
So Tesla was like, well, let's make everything speak the same language
natively.
now you control your software stack.
So, you know, why did Fiskr go bankrupt?
You know, it was because they didn't control their software stack.
That was, that was the hard part was that they were just trying to make, because
they tried to do it in a cheaper way.
It's like, okay, we're going to get suppliers to give us what we need.
And we'll have somebody else build it.
We'll have another factory build it.
and they just never got control of their software stack.
And that was, you know, you go back and watch that whatever's name was video, I
can't think of his name, but the worst car ever drove.
He was just talking about the software, hardware is fine.
You know, so you look at Tesla and you look at Rivian, like their software is
incredible.
Especially I would say these days Rivian, like just murdering the software game.
And you know, go back and look at, you know, phones before the iPhone.
Remember how many of those there were?
Like once the iPhone showed up, game over.
Guess what the iPhone is?
Software defined phone.
You had an operating system.
You had some really good hardware, but the software was able to take advantage of it.
And it's funny what we're able to do with our phones now, but there was a time when
you couldn't do anything.
And you couldn't have a speedometer on your phone because you didn't have an
accelerometer built in.
So you know, you...
the worst part of the modern phone now is the actual phone.
It's like so many of these other things that it's unlocked in the use cases around
them.
But I think it's kind of funny because you're right.
I actually had interviewed Henrik Fisker for auto line a couple of years ago now,
but it was really interesting talking with them and obviously amazing history of
designing cars and some beautiful vehicles he's made.
But it just seemed like the whole business model, even back then to me, it was like,
okay, I get this from like an MBA business.
Thesis that's like, this sounds like a great way to build a car.
It just doesn't seem like, I mean, and you look at the startups that have been
successful, Tesla, Rivian, and to some extent to, lucid, at least with the brand
recognition, it's that personalization, not just even in the software level, but
in kind of just like creature comforts and some of these things that they built into
those vehicles.
And I think the fiscal ocean was designed really beautifully, but in a day to day
living practicality, and then obviously the software level of it.
You just don't have that kind of connection to the actual driver that has
made these other startups so successful.
again, I think back on the, if I'm a Rivian almost two years now, it's almost
two years, two years?
Yeah, it might be two years now.
I can't remember.
God, two years I think.
Anyhow, sorry.
But I knew how good it was off -road when I bought it because I did a lot of off
-roading with it.
I knew it would be really fast because it has 835 horsepower.
But what's really impressed me about owning it is two years later, the car is
much better than when I bought it.
for sure.
doesn't happen.
Well, I went to bed one night and I had 270 miles of range with the off -road
tires.
I woke up, I had 285.
I got pet mode, I got camping mode.
They totally, completely reconfigured all the major controls because it's software
-defined, they're able to, and they have good programmers.
You can have bad software -defined vehicles, Riving just happens to make a
really good one.
And yeah, so it's a, you know, just everything keeps moving.
think that is, no, that's, that's a really good point is just that you get used to
that kind of user experience, owning the vehicle.
It's like, so if you go to look for another vehicle, it's like, well, it
doesn't get software updates or it's, it's the same with like your phone.
I, my iPhone's like three years old, but I still get updates and get support as these
new features come out.
And, our daily is just a Tesla model one.
It's the same thing.
doesn't want to waste great.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Maybe it's a little ubiquitous these days, but it's a wonderful product.
that's almost the downside, but almost kind of the nice thing you kind of just
blend in.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I remember we did a thing where we're doing an IONIQ 5 versus a Model Y,
it's a white Model Y in LA.
And like, I would forget who I was following.
I'm like, I'm looking for the car.
He's right in front of me.
He's my friend, Scott driving.
But I would like, where'd he go?
Cause it's just another white Model Y.
But yeah, I mean, you know, again, there's so much you can do.
Like, again, another new feature that just came out with the Rivian, they're grading
chargers.
In other words,
All the charges in America, another person from Rivian is probably charged there and
it gives them a grade.
And what is the grade?
Well, I forget the exact formula, but it's like, is it up?
What's the speed?
How long did it take to start?
Cause if you have an EV, you've been to electrify America and it's taking you 25
minutes after being on the phone, some poor schlub who has to answer your
screaming phone call.
So like it takes all in account.
That's an A charging site.
That's a C.
And like you're on a road trip.
I'm going to go to the A.
You know, it's brilliant, but that just showed up like two months ago, you know.
And who else?
actually doing a similar thing for Tesla in Europe because the traditional fast
charging network had been much more reliable there.
I'm not sure if they're still going to implement that here, but it's totally
there.
It is interesting because there clearly has also been an improvement recently in
public fast charging.
Cause I had.
Yeah.
it, but yeah, it's gotten a lot better.
that's the other thing too.
But, but you're totally right.
I mean, my whole thing has always been with the visa, especially fast charging is
it has to be at least, I mean, this is true with any technology.
A new technology has to be not just as good, but better than the technology it's
replacing for it to take off.
And that's kind of where the supercharger thing, you've got the experience, you plug
in, you walk away.
And obviously you got plug and charge technology with other vehicles that
essentially is doing the same thing.
And you don't even have to worry about swiping card.
You just step in and walk away.
And unfortunately, we're now finally just seeing not only just the implementation on
the charger side, but also with more cars offering that.
However, exactly your experience can't what you're talking about.
I went through Wyoming, about a year ago and it's, it was all kind of level two or
not level two, but, the version two.
Tesla DC fast chargers in it was fine, but there along the way, there were a couple
electrify America.
So I was like, you know what?
What the hell?
I'll, I'll just swing in there, see if it's a little bit quicker.
And that was a terrible mistake because I, I, it took me one.
I was just getting so spoiled.
Cause I done about, on that trip, I was doing about 800 miles a day.
And so I just been spoiled about the, you just pull in, plug it in, and then I'd be
line it to the bathroom.
And so here I kind of plug in, I already had the pass and everything in the app
download.
want to go to the bathroom, but you have 25 minutes to turn the thing on.
Yeah.
Right, right.
And like, okay, this will just work like it just like pumping gas and I'll and I'll
Yeah, no another experience where it was not
insane to me.
I mean, it's like, okay, like the Iona, I think it's called the network that's
coming the joint venture, Hyundai and BMW and GM.
But it's insane that it took this long that like that these companies were so out
to lunch.
They're like, yeah, we'll just make people buy a $70 ,000 car and don't really know
how they'll charge it.
Where I've been saying this since
since 2013, the smartest thing Tesla did was the supercharger network.
I didn't really get that it would be so much better than other, I knew other
charging solutions would come.
The reason I thought it was so good was you had a bunch of people that had just
bought $100 ,000 science experiments that all stood around in a circle for 45
minutes staring at each other going, hey, good job, yeah, you're smart too.
I'm smart, you're smart, we're smart.
And it was like brand building.
But I didn't realize,
I was just, I couldn't, like, I don't get how, no, again, I believe Electrified
America has turned a corner, but I just couldn't believe how they could be so bad
for so long.
And the EV go, it seemed to have like taken up Electrified America's horrible
old mantle of like, we're the worst, you know?
But that said like ChargePoint, I was at a place last night, three ChargePoint
chargers, all broken with signs on them.
Like we're broken, meaning they're just never getting fixed.
But I think, yeah.
ChargePoint business model makes it so difficult for those to ever be replaced.
and yeah.
like F that, you know.
So yeah, anyways, it's comical.
But I think like I said, Electro America in particular has seemed to turn a corner.
But you know, one step forward, two steps back, Tesla, you know, they fired all 500
people that work for the supercharger department.
So it's like, what, you know, and I was talking to people at like GM, who were
like, there was no one for us to call, like we wanted to, to, to
call someone to like get this going.
We're going to switch GM products over to the Tesla.
We couldn't get ahold of anybody.
And I know in Germany, they're having board meetings like, should we be
switching to NACS?
Like what's the actual advantage besides ubiquity?
It's slower.
So it's still the first inning.
It's the wild.
I don't know.
I use, I did a road trip, in the UK using CCS chargers and it wasn't too bad, but,
just the inherent, I think also going back to that example of like trying to make the
new technology easier for everyone, just having one plug that works for AC and DC
and just the size of it makes it so much easier for accessibility and that stuff
that I don't, whether it's the invest in Tesla supercharger network or not, I think
just inherently that design will be a big.
plus for the end user experience, especially with some of the, yeah.
was a way better technology than VHS.
Tesla had it.
They fired everybody right at this critical point.
Like they might've...
fair, they didn't fire everyone.
They just fired the business development side and they,
who worked for Supercharger.
Every single employee fired them.
not the actual like people working or doing the manager the live updating.
That's what I've heard from people that were still there that it's like
essentially and I it sounds like
No, no, he, he cleaned it.
He hired some back, but I also heard that's going to be, those are temporary
hire backs even because these were like, you know, whatever, you know, you know,
high management people that got hired back to like keep the lights on in the
department.
And they're like miserable.
It's.
to, it's been a little bit of it.
They did hire like they did.
He did let go like a lot of the people who were doing the, site kind of development
and that stuff.
But as far as like the actual management and upkeep of the supercharger, that team
was still there, that part of it.
And now they've slowly.
I heard it as everybody in Supercharger was groomed out and everybody in new model
development was groomed out.
And it's just crazy.
It's just, I just don't get it.
Yeah.
It's just, it's like what, you know?
And again, you don't have to switch.
Yeah.
they had actually announced a bunch of technologies.
I mean, I do think a big part of it was just kind of like him firing the person
because they didn't want to make the cutbacks as like what was being said, but
there were also a lot.
What was interesting was there were actually a lot of Tesla product
announcements last year that we just never saw.
And I do kind of.
does it.
I mean, you know, look, yeah.
no, I mean, I mean, it's one thing like to that's a fair point, like the Cybertruck,
all that stuff, obviously, yeah, took one and then they do deliver it.
But there was like, they alluded to a wireless charger, they alluded to like
some new charging technology, they allude to other stuff.
And then it just never got anywhere.
And he probably was distracted with Twitter and everything else.
But it does seem like there may have been a change, good or bad, with him kind of
like coming in to get things for this next version.
I hope that's the case.
Just because I like to see good competition, but we'll see.
I don't know.
It's definitely been an interesting few months with all of the kind of charging
space, unfortunately.
Yeah.
No, but again, like, you know, you think about it right now, if you're every other
OEM, well, Hey dude, we're already doing CCS.
Why are we switching?
You know, like we don't have to switch that, you know, like, so I just think it
was, it was just like, yeah, you know, it's like, Hey, my car and you know, CCS
charges faster than, than, than, than any CS.
Like, you know, sure.
There's a potential.
stand, like the actual J 3 ,400 charges faster.
That's the problem is none of those are actually in implementation right now.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, I've seen, God, I had a Lucid that was charging it like something
ridiculous.
It was like over 300 kilowatts.
It was flying.
The thing was insane.
You know, Tesla can't do that.
You know, the NACS that I've seen can't do that yet.
You know, it was possible, but where are they?
So it's just this real self -inflicted gunshot wound of like, why would you do
that now?
You know, it's like...
You know, again, right now, the only vehicles that come with a native NACS port
is a Tesla.
Everyone else is still using CCS and like, yeah, boy, you'd save us a lot of money if
we just left it CCS.
You know, they really would.
Customers, you know, CCS customers, they don't care.
You know, they, yes, sure, it'd be nice to have the access to the supercharger
network, but guess what?
I got an adapter, it works fine.
So that's, it's a weird time.
I mean, I, for sure.
I don't think there's an argument there.
Good or bad.
It's become weird times.
but I, I, I don't know.
I think it's, I'm kind of torn.
I I've used both, and J 1772.
and I just, I do think that the one kind of plug that works for anything, whether
it be AC or DC is just a better user experience and just kind of simplifies a
lot of things for people who are trying to make the switch.
But again, you know, beta max was a better technology than VHS.
You know, the porn industry likes VHS and that, you know, it's just, it's, it's
where you're going to sell the most.
And like, you know, Tesla sales are down.
other EV sales are all up.
there's a lot of CCS like, maybe you don't switch.
You know, I already, you know, like I already got a CCS at home.
You know, I don't really want to switch.
You know, so.
It's just weird.
It's just a weird time.
Well, wait, so when you say you have the J 1772, you mean the kind of AC charging
for, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
the same top plug, doesn't have the two pin.
I mean, I can go to a fast charger, use the two pin, but yeah.
no, and it is kind of interesting though, just looking at all the different
infrastructure and stuff that's been out there.
you, you kind of mentioned lucid and I think that their products from an
engineering standpoint had been very impressive, but then kind of going back to
the software defined vehicle side of stuff is where there's kind of been a big, at
least in my experience, kind of let down.
And I think you've probably talked to the team more and probably obviously had more
seat time than I have to.
I'm just kind of curious if you like.
Obviously you have a Rivian for your day to day vehicle, but like looking at others
kind of in the space, which have been not even necessarily started, but like what
happened?
The EVs that are kind of out there right now that you're the most excited about
interesting.
I mean, for me, the big one right now is the new Porsche Tycon, but,
I haven't experienced it yet.
I'd love to.
I think BMW is kind of smashing it right now.
Now where they're falling down is their software.
It's like it's a cluttered mess.
They're central nav screens.
Actually surpass Mercedes is like, I don't know where anything is.
Can't find it.
But I think BMW though, like man, the i5, the i7, the iX, solid, good, good
products.
They really are.
You know lucid I mean, you know the the the range to speak for itself and they did
do like a pretty big Software update that did fix a lot of it It's it's still not
good enough and I think they know it's not good enough and they I think they're
really scrambling to get gravity out the door But like again, you know boy when
gravity comes I think Peter was saying there's some scenario where maybe it's
gonna get like six kilometers.
Sorry six miles a Kilowatt, you know, which is like that's like my riving gets
to you know, that's
That's efficient.
And they're starting to license their hardware.
And it's just unbeatable from that perspective.
So yeah, their software, it's always been the weak spot of the car.
It's not the hardware.
But it's not like Fisker where they just didn't work at all.
It's just, yeah.
I think Mercedes, the people that own them, they really enjoy them and they
actually are very solid EVs.
Some of the Audis are pretty good, some are pretty old.
Yeah, I mean, Tycon, they just announced today the new e -tron GT and the RS e
-tron GT, like great looking things.
And finally, they're gonna have some range and a lot of power.
So that's interesting.
The one actually probably impressed me the most recently, I drove the Nissan Aria.
Like, damn, that's a fine little vehicle.
Yeah.
Hey buddy.
the, it almost just doesn't seem like a Nissan.
Not, I don't mean that as it, aesthetically and the interior wise, it's
pretty different than a lot of the stuff that they've offered at least recently.
And it's not a bad product.
I think it's just too expensive right now compared to other things.
but it's definitely a really unique.
they have a wide range and they have a front wheel drive version that's in the
40s and it's kind of in line with like an Ioniq 5, you know, or EV6 or whatever.
And like, that's pretty nice.
Plus they have these like banger ludicrous lease deals that are happening.
And, you know, I was impressed.
I was just like...
been, I haven't looked at it too recently, so it may have been just kind of the first
few versions when I look back there.
I mean the one I had was definitely the whatever they called it the you know, e
-force plus platinum double triple whatever but it was I think it was like 55
,000 but it was 400 horsepower.
Zero to 60 was quoted at 4 .8.
Killer interior drove terrific wonderful ride and I'm like this is great like you
know if you were to buy a $55 ,000 Murano or Pathfinder like you know, it's like CVT
Def.
you know, just, just, you know, and this was just so much better.
so I was very impressed by that, you know, and again, we keep, dancing around the
Koreans, but like, boy, you know, are they up to something and are they making nice
products?
You know, Ioniq five, EV six are good.
Ioniq nine needs, some suspension work.
And, again, they're not really true software defined vehicles yet.
There's still a lot of like unreprogrammable buttons.
Which will just limit their ability to update them and make them better.
But, they're mostly there.
yeah, I think there's something to be said for like, sometimes people complain about
like Tesla and even to an extent raving about like being too touchscreen focused
and I don't have an issue with it, but I totally get that understanding and
definitely people abuse it.
But it is kind of funny when you look at a lot of the high end and key of stuff where
it is kind of almost the opposite where it's like, yeah, there's probably a few of
these buttons you guys could have gone rid of.
And again, it's only as good as a software program.
So I'll give you an example.
So the Rivian from day one, one of the big complaints that I made and we all made as
an owner, I don't really pay attention to it, but the complaints always made by
reviewers is like, what's with these vents?
Why do I have to go to the screen to position a point events?
Well, new update that's coming.
So the new truck.
There's presets.
So you know how you and your wife are probably different sizes and when you get
in the car, you adjust the seat, right?
Well, my wife hates cold air blowing on her face.
I die in a car without cold air blowing on her face.
And when we get in the car, it's a constant fight.
Whoever's driving, moving the vents around.
Presets, by the way, the presets loaded to your phone.
So my setting would be cold vents in my face when I get in the car and then she's
in the passenger seat.
put the vents somewhere where she likes them opposite for when her phone is in the
driver's seat.
Well, that's, that's kind of interesting because that, yeah, it's been that way in
the test was for awhile and it's totally tied to like whoever's profile, whoever's
driving the car and, but, but it, but it's exactly what you're talking about.
It's something that can be changed later with software to find, but it is, it, it
reminds me of something I did want to ask you.
And that is I have seen so many, car reviewers kind of complain about stuff
like that.
And I, I think that use case you're talking about is it makes sense where it's
like, when you got the car, that is annoying going between different drivers.
but there's been so many kinds of things with, whether it's electric or not, but
kind of go into the touch screens too, where, yeah, you have to kind of go in
there once to change the, where you prefer the, the air coming out.
But then after, I mean, and maybe, yeah, it's a little inconvenient, but once
you've done that, I have not changed it in my car in like two years.
And do you think that there is kind of an issue with traditional car reviewers being
able to successfully go not only to electric vehicles, but I think.
with a lot of these vehicles.
It's like, you can't really get it in a 24 hour or even 48 hour thing.
It's like, you almost have to have it with a week.
I mean, you can, but I think there's so many things I've seen about like negative
reviews about cars.
I was like, well, yeah, that, that would suck if it was like a rental car or you
had to use it for a day or two.
But if it's like your personal vehicle, then yeah, you never changed this.
Yeah, I think there will always be some of that.
There will always be some of that.
But I do think Kyle Connor made this point and.
Yeah, he's great.
We've had him on before.
Yeah, I never, he made this point and he was very just, you know, he has a very
succinct way of speaking, but he, you know, unless he's going on for nine hours
about a battery, a thermal state, but he just said, most car reviewers don't
understand EVs.
And it really stuck with me.
I've been having fights with people where they're like, man, you know what I love
about the Mach E it's got an on -off switch.
I'm like, why do you love that?
Like,
What if your phone had an on -off switch?
How stupid would that be?
The best thing in the world is you just sit in the car and it's ready to go.
This Nissan Aria, turn it on and it would take five seconds for the radio to wake up
and you just scream.
Yeah, it's just like, ooh.
You're just wasting your life away.
Whereas Rivian, you just jump in and go.
Tesla, you jump in and go.
Lucid, you try to.
Lucid's still like a 10 second mark.
They're getting better, but yeah.
And, but again, you read a lot of reviews and they talk about how like, it was hard
to charge.
It's like, well, it's hard to charge because you don't have a home charger.
Like if you're going to buy the thing, you would have a home charger.
How fast did it charge relative to other things in the segment once you got it
plugged in?
So I definitely agree.
There's a lot of ignorance from my colleagues and myself too.
I'm, you know, I wish I knew more.
about electric vehicles.
think, I think that's what's been really interesting about even watching both of
you guys on the inevitable podcast, but it is very clear, like progressing through
the episodes.
You guys have such a deep knowledge of cars and the car industry, and especially
like combustion vehicles, but with electric vehicles, there's a lot of new
things.
And then just like these recent examples of sound about like vehicle degree, like
there's a whole new universe.
And it's one thing when I see like a journalist, like say kilowatt instead of
kilowatt hour and like, that's really annoying.
But I am kind of curious, like, what has been the best way for you as a kind of
traditional card journalist making this change into the EV space and learn these
things?
Like, what do you think the other writers or others need to do out there?
Or is it just like, there just isn't an interest from them in doing that maybe.
Or is it just a lot to take on?
yeah, I mean, there's some of that for sure.
but I think, you know, too few, car journalists buy new cars too few.
you know, Ed, my cause, you know, famously is like, I buy a used Cayenne 2017
Cayenne.
Yeah.
Support your industry, man.
Like I, I buy new cars.
and so I think.
Too few buy new cars and then of the minority that does, too few are EVs.
And I'm not saying you have to own an EV, but I think you really, if you're gonna
review cars for a living, get a home charger because that's the experience that
the owners have is I wake up when I want to with a full battery.
I used to think I had to keep my battery charged.
Now I'm like, yeah, leave it at 20%, who cares?
I'll charge it when I need to.
But again, that's the owner experience, especially as you learn more.
And then again, once it's still a few years away from mainstream, but once bi
-directional charging really gets going, it's like, I'm leaving my battery fricking
empty because maybe someone's gonna wanna pay me to put electricity into it for a
few minutes.
It's rapidly changing.
But anyways, yeah.
it, it is kind of a, I mean, it's, it's a area that I'm really fascinated with and
has had a lot of discussions, especially as someone who kind of like to worked in
the renewable space about starting like a decade ago.
However, I think in some ways, I think we're finally starting to see some of the
VDG stuff that's been talked about for the last five years.
But I think part of the problem was, like obviously Tesla kind of was one of the
first ones not necessarily to come out with VDG, but obviously battery backup and
stuff they offered at home.
And that started like getting a lot of gears turning and more so kind of like
Wall Street would say like, this is the future.
We're going to give them a bunch of money.
probably not the right, right thing, but give them a bunch of money.
And then that's where like GM and these others.
And I, I totally get it.
I think it makes sense for a lot of these companies, to make inroads into that and
make the investment, but it does seem like there were a large rush to get into that
space and.
good or bad, we're finally starting to see some of that.
But I think the inherent challenge is just like how expensive it is to install these,
unfortunately, in homes like in our example, our house is in the seventies and
we need to do a panel upgrade anyway.
So that's one thing.
But the vast I don't I think that's kind of the trouble with it is like the vast
majority of people to understand that that is part of the expense.
And like that's at least anywhere from six to eight grand.
unfortunately to get done.
Yeah.
And then, you know, if you, GM's doing a smart thing with their GM energy thing
where it's like, Hey, we'll give you bi -directional charging for 7 ,500 bucks.
By the way, we'll just take your federal tax credit and do it for free.
You know, it's like, it happens to be 7 ,500.
So it's smart, but yeah, no, look, that's the other problem with EVs.
It's a rich man's game at the moment.
And you know, there are going to be cheap EVs coming.
But that's like all new technologies, you know, it's not all, but you know, it's
gonna take time, but you know, eventually, I mean, the electric automobile will
happen and people will start to see the benefit of, you know, of spending the
money.
It's like solar panels too.
It's like, no one ever is like, man, that was a waste of money.
It's like, I'm really glad I did that.
It was, yeah, it cost a little bit, but it's a good thing, you know.
And so yeah, it just takes time.
And look, like any other market prices will drop, everything will become cheaper.
But yeah, but again, like, you know, yes.
Yeah.
just so interesting about this is it's a whole new market that is very utility
dependent.
So you have automakers who have really never had to work with utilities have to
deal with DC fast charging and then residential charging, which are themselves
their own beasts.
and then in addition to that, you have to have a really good software stack to
communicate between all of these things.
which I, once again, I completely agree with you.
I think the cost will come down and I think we will get there.
Mm -hmm.
think that there's, I think we're on like generation one or like the still like
alpha prototype.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Cause this, I think, I think in the vehicle to grid space, we might be doing
the national anthem.
I don't even know if the game has started.
There's still a little bit of a ways to go, but I'm sorry.
What else were you going to say there?
it's just, we're early, we're early, you know, and like all things, it'll improve.
You know, one of the things I did want to talk to you about though was, you just
bought a new car that wasn't an EV and yeah.
I think that's really interesting to me.
And that's kind of like almost how we personally are too.
We have an EV that is like 90 % of our day -to -day stuff.
And it's kind of the fun, like road trip thing, but then we have like a fun weekend
vehicle, which is our old Land Rover Defender.
And I I'm kind of curious, like when you look at the.
traditional car enthusiast space.
Do you see this as kind of the future of like, yeah, most people are just going to
have an EV as a daily and then we'll still have like a combustion vehicle for the
weekends or how do you think that kind of plays in?
And is that a way maybe to get people to buy into the idea of EVs who, especially
coming the car community, I've been pretty, those that have been adamant
against it.
Yeah, I mean my purchase was more like, the wheels were kind of in motion, like I
like to have like a little sports car.
I got a kid, I don't know if a kid needs you on it, but it's got a back seat.
And you know, like yeah, the IONIQ 5N, but it was like 70 grand versus, you know, I
paid like 46.
You know, could I have swung it?
Yeah, probably, but a 46 ,000 was a good price point for me.
especially because I'm still paying off the stupid Rivian, which is a lot more.
You know, it's just, there's really weren't any others.
Yeah, there just weren't any other sporty EV options at the moment.
You know, in a few years, I guarantee there will be, you know what I mean?
So it was just sort of like, I like interesting cars.
I like fun to drive cars.
You know, like I had an Alfa Julia and like,
Yeah, yeah, I probably should have got the quadrifolia because I you know, Julie was
cool I didn't really want to drive it ever because it's kind of a nothing engine For
me, you know for a lot of people they really like it.
It was just like I would've sugar Great car.
Yeah great car, but you know, so You know, is this the last gasoline car new the
gasoline car?
I'll probably ever buy.
Yeah last manual kind of probably definitely But yeah
I bought it, I enjoy it.
That said, it has less than 400 miles on it.
I never drive the thing.
It's just sort of when I don't have a press car, I need another car.
I do love it, I do love it.
I drove it a little yesterday and I'm like, God, this thing is so good.
It's just a great to drive vehicle.
So, I mean, is it just those two vehicles you have right now?
And do you, did you kind of get that one?
a Porsche 914, but that's a long other episode.
So one day it might go up.
Yeah, it's being restored supposedly.
Now those are pretty popular for electric conversions.
Is that something you'd ever do?
Do you see that as blasphemy?
definitely not blasphemy.
I'm thinking about getting it from where it's living right now and giving it to a
friend and just getting an EV out of it.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about that.
So, but no, I don't, I don't, I don't see it as particularly, I mean, it's a 1970,
like nine 14, like, no, the, the, the, the 80 horsepower, 1 .7 liter, like, what a
precious thing.
You know, like it's, it was, it was a, you know, it was a commodity car that happened
to be a minute and two seater.
I mean, to be honest with you, that's why I've kind of been open to it.
It's like, there's so many beautiful cars that just had terrible power trains.
now for that, it kind of works because it was so small and light anyway, but that,
that is kind of where I do think like converting some of these old ones is kind
of cool.
Like if it didn't have some amazing V8 or something else, like it keeps it on the
road, which is good for the environment.
And for a lot of people who may have like a sentimental connection or got from
someone else in the family, it's less maintenance and just kind of a great
option for them.
I think it's fine.
I think my problem with most EV conversions is that they're level two
conversions, so you can't fast charge them.
So they're just kind of like around town toys.
so you would want to road trip one?
Yeah.
option.
It's just, they're not fully there.
It's just like, like again, I do like an EV powertrain, but what I think when I'm
learning, I really like software defined vehicles.
I really like like the wild innovation, you know?
So, but you know, again, you know, if electrifying it adds to the driving
experience, great.
If it doesn't, eh, keep it gas, who cares?
But I don't really, to be,
Really honest, I don't really think about it.
I don't care what you do with your own car.
It's your car.
Do what you want.
It's the new ones that I'm worried about.
So.
So kind of with that, I realized we're kind of coming on in our time.
I just want to say one, thanks again for coming on.
This has been great today and a fun conversation.
A lot of different, a lot of different parts of the EV space right now.
What, I you've mentioned software defined vehicles and that's something you talk
about a lot, but is there anything that we haven't discussed today that, you really
do enjoy about electric vehicles that kind of like stands out or has been something
that you just didn't expect to enjoy as much.
Yeah, you know, I asked, I was talking to some, some, I drove the, Macan via
prototype and I was talking with the Porsche guys and I said, you know, you're
German engineers.
You must have a word for yes, you're adding weight, but at the same time, the
center of gravity is lowering and that improves performance by blah amount.
They go, yes, it's the often faffing or whatever they said.
And, and so, and again, maybe, you know, the Aria kind of, we did cover it a little
bit, but like.
Just going EV, if you think about the Nissan Murano, like, mediocre is a mean
term, but a middling vehicle, middle of the pack, well, just going electric, wow,
suddenly it's just great to drive, the ride quality was insane, it feels
luxurious, it's quiet, it's smooth, there's no horrid CVT or whatever bad
transmission solution that economy cars get, or mainstream cars get tasked with,
you really have this like,
instantly torquey things.
So it's like, just like RAV4s and everything going electric.
Like I said, like the Prius, man, if that was a fully V, it'd be a fantastic
vehicle.
So it's just like your average car is gonna get so much better.
And then, you know.
funny you say that because, one of the things we talked about in our, previous
episode was about like the challenges that allow these older brands, like, especially
the Germans have like kind of around the badge engineering when you have the new
McCann and then there's the Audi equivalent on it.
Like their big thing was like, well, we flipped the motor around too.
So that kind of gives you more of the traditional Porsche feeling of that.
And I haven't driven either.
So I can't say for sure when or the other, but do you think that that is.
something that a lot of these kinds of brands are struggling with or anything
that to kind of make that change to like to differentiate more since so many of
them have kind of gone to the skateboard low gravity design across brands.
I would say, A, I've driven both of them.
I can't talk about the Audi yet.
But I would say you look at the Volkswagen group and you look at, let's say the, it's
the MLB Evo platform.
Okay, well, what's that?
Well, Audi A4 is MLB Evo 2 and so is the Lamborghini Urus.
These guys are good at differentiating a common platform.
They're really good at it.
and, I'm not worried about that at all.
turning the motor around.
I had some marketing horseshit, but, the, they did do an excellent job making the
new Macan EV drive and feel just like you're driving.
I would say even less of McCone, but like a Cayenne, it really does feel like a
Porsche SUV.
Very, wow.
You know, so they're, they're a very good job at that.
And it makes more power and it's quieter and it drives better.
All the good EV stuff.
So no, I'm not worried about that at all.
These guys are the master of that.
I worry.
Cause I think one of the other examples we talked about was how phenomenal of a job
key and Hyundai have kind of hopped on the wave of the electric electric cars,
because no one ever talked about the roar of a Kia.
And now you have fun.
Kia is to drive.
But it.
was even like a Genesis, like what sucked about Genesis was the powertrain.
Well, make them all electric.
Great.
But yeah, no, I think maybe I worry about like when autonomy becomes more of a
thing.
Well, you know, how is the Volkswagen autonomous software gonna, is it gonna
drive like a Volkswagen?
Or is the Porsche gonna drive like a Porsche?
You know, like.
You know, who knows, we'll see.
But I think as far as like, yeah, like, you know, differentiating, you can totally
do it, you know?
And I mean, you even see it with, I can't talk about this out.
But anyways, you can do a lot with software where you can radically change a
vehicle with just software.
You know what I mean?
I mean, I'll put it like this.
The Q6 and the SQ6, which have very different power outputs,
Same hardware, it's just a software.
Software says pull more power out of the battery, spin the motors faster with this
much throttle input.
That makes it an SQ6.
Well, I think that's about as good of a place to end it on today, Jonny.
Thank you so much.
That's been a great conversation and we'll have to have you get on soon
That wraps up this episode of the great connections podcast.
We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Jonny Liberman, where we delved into the
transition to electric vehicles, the current state of EV charging and the
fascinating world of software defined vehicles.
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