WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.550 Mike Bifulco: Hello friends, and welcome back to APIs you won't hate. 00:00:02.550 --> 00:00:06.030 My name is Mike Biko, one of your co-hosts of the podcast. 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:08.850 For once I am hanging out with two of my favorite people in the world. 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:12.210 I've got Phil Sturgeon and Alexander Karen on the line with me. 00:00:12.210 --> 00:00:13.050 Alex, how are you, 00:00:13.050 --> 00:00:13.230 Alexander Karan: yeah. 00:00:13.295 --> 00:00:13.575 Good. 00:00:15.959 --> 00:00:17.129 Mike Bifulco: I'm, fully convinced. 00:00:18.165 --> 00:00:19.574 Phil: Yeah, same, same trouble here. 00:00:19.574 --> 00:00:21.839 I was out flyering for a charity, Crowdfunder all 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:23.489 yesterday and in the morning 00:00:23.489 --> 00:00:26.279 we started in the coffee shops and in the evening we gotta all the pubs. 00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:28.374 So I was very hyperactive and then very hungover. 00:00:29.031 --> 00:00:30.531 Mike Bifulco: I think of all the things I do, this is the 00:00:30.531 --> 00:00:32.251 most challenging to schedule. 00:00:32.301 --> 00:00:33.411 Just, just in case. 00:00:33.511 --> 00:00:35.461 Someone listening is new to this experience. 00:00:35.461 --> 00:00:37.201 I am on the east coast in the us. 00:00:37.201 --> 00:00:40.531 Phil is usually somewhere in Western Europe. 00:00:40.901 --> 00:00:45.221 And Alexandra is in Australia, which means we are basically spanning the globe which 00:00:45.221 --> 00:00:47.771 is why we only catch up maybe once a year. 00:00:47.871 --> 00:00:49.941 It is really, really nice to see you both. 00:00:49.941 --> 00:00:52.521 I actually cannot think of the last time I've been on a call with 00:00:52.521 --> 00:00:53.691 the two of you at the same time. 00:00:54.231 --> 00:00:55.611 Phil: Yeah, I think the first time, 00:00:55.744 --> 00:00:55.894 Yeah, 00:00:56.164 --> 00:00:57.424 Alexander Karan: it's definitely the first time. 00:00:57.784 --> 00:00:58.054 I mean, 00:00:58.054 --> 00:01:01.174 I've spoken to Phil separately and Mike separately, but now together. 00:01:01.468 --> 00:01:01.678 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:01:01.678 --> 00:01:04.018 Now that, now that you've seen us both in the same room, you can tell we're not the 00:01:04.018 --> 00:01:05.668 same person too, which is kind of wild. 00:01:07.313 --> 00:01:08.098 Phil: I mean, it's similar 00:01:08.218 --> 00:01:10.438 Mike Bifulco: I'm, I'm interested in hearing what you've both been up to. 00:01:10.468 --> 00:01:10.758 Alexander Karan: Okay. 00:01:10.783 --> 00:01:15.723 So, Let's start what's keeping me busy outside of work because, so I, I've 00:01:15.723 --> 00:01:17.373 been looking for a new hobby recently. 00:01:17.838 --> 00:01:21.018 And 'cause you know, that's what you do when you're in your thirties. 00:01:22.769 --> 00:01:23.369 Phil: class right? 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:25.079 Alexander Karan: yeah, that's it, right? 00:01:25.084 --> 00:01:27.269 For, for, for middle age, get ready for middle age. 00:01:27.839 --> 00:01:30.839 So I, I decided to get really into coffee. 00:01:31.349 --> 00:01:37.619 And like now, I, you know, work at Big Tech and get paid a bit more. 00:01:37.929 --> 00:01:40.869 Because I'm not working for a startup anymore, I decided to go like the 00:01:40.869 --> 00:01:47.583 full whole hog and like, spend like a used small, a small used car amount 00:01:47.583 --> 00:01:52.773 of money on like a proper barista coffee machine at home, a grinder, 00:01:53.253 --> 00:01:55.473 like all this special equipment. 00:01:55.581 --> 00:02:00.591 And then like, you know, and like I'm just making like really great espressos and 00:02:00.591 --> 00:02:02.871 cappuccinos in the morning now and getting 00:02:02.871 --> 00:02:05.211 like lo freshly roasted coffee. 00:02:05.541 --> 00:02:08.961 And then there's like that little nagging voice in the back of my head that's 00:02:08.961 --> 00:02:12.501 like, climate change is affecting the amount of area we could grow coffee. 00:02:12.501 --> 00:02:13.491 And I'm like, wait a minute. 00:02:13.491 --> 00:02:14.811 There's a time limit on this hobby. 00:02:15.354 --> 00:02:15.774 Phil: Yeah. 00:02:15.774 --> 00:02:16.104 Right. 00:02:16.134 --> 00:02:18.804 Are you, are you going full fancy and getting the, getting the beans 00:02:18.804 --> 00:02:20.539 that have been passed through a spider monkey or something? 00:02:20.559 --> 00:02:22.344 Or, or what's your favorite choice of bean? 00:02:22.587 --> 00:02:26.567 Alexander Karan: So I joined, so in per, so I'm in the west coast of Australia. 00:02:26.567 --> 00:02:27.917 Just had to double check that for a second. 00:02:28.037 --> 00:02:32.177 So it's actually quite small, but we actually have like a ridiculous 00:02:32.177 --> 00:02:34.667 amount of like specialty roasters. 00:02:34.697 --> 00:02:38.357 Like for some reason we have lots of specialty roasters, lots 00:02:38.357 --> 00:02:39.857 of gin distilleries, lots of 00:02:39.857 --> 00:02:42.557 breweries, like all these fans chocolatier 00:02:43.145 --> 00:02:44.090 Phil: not much else to do out there. 00:02:44.110 --> 00:02:44.490 Is there 00:02:45.082 --> 00:02:46.102 Alexander Karan: just eat a drink. 00:02:46.102 --> 00:02:46.522 That's it. 00:02:46.522 --> 00:02:49.372 So, so yeah, I joined this coffee club and they like send you 00:02:49.372 --> 00:02:52.732 freshly roasted coffee every four weeks from like different places. 00:02:53.092 --> 00:02:55.162 Um, yeah, so I'm just experimenting at the most. 00:02:55.162 --> 00:02:59.872 That's my, my personal life is I've been one of those like pretentious 00:02:59.872 --> 00:03:04.402 people that's like, takes 10 minutes to make a coffee and like, you 00:03:04.402 --> 00:03:07.942 know, cleaning the machine, it. 00:03:10.222 --> 00:03:12.532 Phil: I think that we've gone on a similar journey, but mine is such 00:03:12.532 --> 00:03:15.852 a, like a dumber, smaller version, which is I have finally decided that 00:03:15.852 --> 00:03:20.062 I'm bored of instant coffee and I decided to treat myself to an arrow. 00:03:20.062 --> 00:03:21.592 Press go, like the travel one. 00:03:21.832 --> 00:03:24.892 But I've had it for like six months and I've never got it out of the box. 00:03:25.552 --> 00:03:28.282 I've just still got like a massive jar of instant coffee because my 00:03:28.282 --> 00:03:30.862 theory was like in the van, I can take it, bike back in, I can take, 00:03:30.862 --> 00:03:32.182 you know, I can keep it in the van. 00:03:32.392 --> 00:03:35.872 I've got a little ho and a little stove and stuff, so I can, I can boil water in 00:03:35.872 --> 00:03:37.402 the van and then I can pull that over. 00:03:37.822 --> 00:03:39.587 But the problem is trying to keep I can. 00:03:40.192 --> 00:03:44.372 I don't get through enough van coffee that I can justify having like 00:03:44.372 --> 00:03:45.962 buying a whole bag of ground stuff. 00:03:46.232 --> 00:03:47.942 So myself, grinder 00:03:50.462 --> 00:03:51.782 minutes in this random 00:03:51.782 --> 00:03:52.832 Tecos park. 00:03:53.552 --> 00:03:55.692 Alexander Karan: you do you, you do. 00:03:55.692 --> 00:03:55.767 You do. 00:03:56.217 --> 00:04:00.237 Because like you, like as I get into this hobby, you grind fresh. 00:04:00.237 --> 00:04:02.127 That's how you get the best taste, right? 00:04:02.127 --> 00:04:02.607 Like you, 00:04:02.917 --> 00:04:03.207 Phil: Yeah. 00:04:03.212 --> 00:04:03.782 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:04.672 --> 00:04:04.892 Alexander Karan: but 00:04:05.012 --> 00:04:05.612 a fresh is 00:04:05.612 --> 00:04:05.912 Phil: I got the. 00:04:07.047 --> 00:04:10.047 I had to, like, I had a Kelly kettle, if you've heard of those, like the little 00:04:10.047 --> 00:04:11.517 you put like little twigs in this. 00:04:11.517 --> 00:04:12.507 It's kinda like a rocket stove. 00:04:12.717 --> 00:04:16.017 You make a little fire and the, and the water is stored in the chamber around 00:04:16.017 --> 00:04:17.757 the outside, so the fire boils the water. 00:04:18.117 --> 00:04:18.987 And so I used to be like, 00:04:19.137 --> 00:04:23.007 sat in a, a car park or wherever the hell I was sleeping last night, 00:04:23.007 --> 00:04:26.277 A random lay by on the side of the remote, just like wherever. 00:04:26.347 --> 00:04:28.687 And I'm there just making a fire with everyone going by. 00:04:28.687 --> 00:04:30.037 Like, what is this psycho doing? 00:04:30.547 --> 00:04:33.697 Um, so then the whole process of and grinding just felt like 00:04:33.697 --> 00:04:34.717 a little bit too much on top. 00:04:34.717 --> 00:04:36.607 By that point I was like, it's taken me 20 minutes. 00:04:36.607 --> 00:04:37.627 I've got some boiling water. 00:04:37.627 --> 00:04:39.187 I'm putting some bloody instant coffee in there. 00:04:39.607 --> 00:04:42.667 But yeah, if you actually are a normal human being with like a house 00:04:42.667 --> 00:04:45.397 and a space to put things, you can get pretty nice for your coffee. 00:04:46.587 --> 00:04:48.957 Alexander Karan: Yeah, but I, I didn't used to be into coffee 00:04:48.957 --> 00:04:50.487 until I moved into Australia. 00:04:50.547 --> 00:04:53.367 Like when I moved here, that's when I really, 'cause they're 00:04:53.367 --> 00:04:54.567 really into coffee here. 00:04:54.567 --> 00:04:57.777 They're like really into literally just like really good food. 00:04:58.167 --> 00:04:58.497 It is. 00:04:58.497 --> 00:05:02.637 'cause all you do is chill out in the sunshine and like eat 00:05:02.637 --> 00:05:04.587 and drink and have a good life. 00:05:04.587 --> 00:05:04.857 Right? 00:05:04.887 --> 00:05:07.197 Like that's kind of what Australia's all about. 00:05:07.197 --> 00:05:09.387 Like, it's not really about doing anything else. 00:05:09.467 --> 00:05:11.867 So yeah, that Australia got me into coffee. 00:05:12.512 --> 00:05:16.682 And now working at Big Tech has given me the, the funds necessary to 00:05:16.682 --> 00:05:18.152 really get into coffee. 00:05:18.257 --> 00:05:19.367 Phil: Alright, I like that. 00:05:19.997 --> 00:05:21.527 And so I like that you picked that as your hobby. 00:05:21.587 --> 00:05:24.077 I, I've not really considered coffee as a hobby before, but 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:26.219 Alexander Karan: feel like I have to say that now with 00:05:26.219 --> 00:05:27.719 the level of effort that I've 00:05:27.719 --> 00:05:28.139 put in. 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:28.439 Right. 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:29.309 Like that's 00:05:29.309 --> 00:05:29.699 why. 00:05:29.744 --> 00:05:33.344 Phil: You si similar money could have got you like a kayak and all the gear 00:05:33.374 --> 00:05:34.874 or like a pair of skis or something. 00:05:34.934 --> 00:05:36.674 But if it's, if it's up in that ballpark then 00:05:37.304 --> 00:05:37.754 Mike Bifulco: yeah. 00:05:38.254 --> 00:05:41.554 Alexander, I'm so excited to hear that now that you're part of the club, I can show 00:05:41.554 --> 00:05:42.904 you the secret handshake and all that. 00:05:43.204 --> 00:05:43.474 my 00:05:43.729 --> 00:05:44.089 Alexander Karan: You are. 00:05:44.119 --> 00:05:44.989 You are one of those too. 00:05:44.989 --> 00:05:45.349 Yeah. 00:05:45.349 --> 00:05:45.859 I found a 00:05:45.859 --> 00:05:46.789 few with Atlassian. 00:05:47.393 --> 00:05:48.863 Mike Bifulco: So I'm very similar to you. 00:05:48.863 --> 00:05:50.573 I didn't actually drink coffee until. 00:05:51.518 --> 00:05:54.168 A few years ago like just never, never bothered. 00:05:54.538 --> 00:05:58.108 But somewhere around starting my first startup due to something, 00:05:58.108 --> 00:06:00.638 my co-founder Sean said to me, I started drinking coffee. 00:06:00.638 --> 00:06:03.368 'cause he told me that successful startup founders tend to be 00:06:03.368 --> 00:06:05.078 early risers and that just like. 00:06:05.583 --> 00:06:08.193 Burrowed into my brain, and I was, you know, up earlier and 00:06:08.193 --> 00:06:09.363 earlier as a result of that. 00:06:09.703 --> 00:06:11.203 However, it's gone very far from there. 00:06:11.203 --> 00:06:13.243 And I've, I've come to understand that I really only enjoy 00:06:13.243 --> 00:06:14.413 espresso for the most part. 00:06:14.413 --> 00:06:16.273 So I make myself an espresso every morning. 00:06:16.613 --> 00:06:20.393 And when Covid hit the US and I sensed that the world was shutting down, I 00:06:20.393 --> 00:06:24.478 took my coffee budget for the year and I bought an espresso setup for home. 00:06:24.608 --> 00:06:25.178 Phil: Nice. 00:06:25.358 --> 00:06:26.258 You went prepper. 00:06:26.258 --> 00:06:26.793 But for coffee, 00:06:27.378 --> 00:06:28.308 Mike Bifulco: big time. 00:06:28.343 --> 00:06:30.248 Phil: I've got 20 years of coffee in the basement. 00:06:30.248 --> 00:06:31.388 No one's fucking getting anywhere near it. 00:06:31.823 --> 00:06:32.333 Mike Bifulco: That's right. 00:06:32.333 --> 00:06:34.733 I've got the spreadsheets to prove it, and I've been tracking 00:06:34.733 --> 00:06:36.353 my expenses with it ever since. 00:06:36.353 --> 00:06:39.473 And I'm, I'm happy to say that as of about the beginning of this year, it's, 00:06:39.473 --> 00:06:41.243 it's now technically paid for itself. 00:06:41.643 --> 00:06:43.533 You know, in the amount of money I've saved by not buying 00:06:43.533 --> 00:06:44.433 coffee and coffee shops. 00:06:44.433 --> 00:06:45.543 I haven't stopped doing that. 00:06:45.543 --> 00:06:48.633 But I also, you know, I'm, I'm drinking additional coffee. 00:06:48.663 --> 00:06:52.193 So yeah, we will have to spin up the espresso you won't 00:06:52.193 --> 00:06:53.913 hate podcast next Alexander. 00:06:53.913 --> 00:06:55.763 And we can, we can go ape on that. 00:06:55.944 --> 00:06:57.744 Phil: For me, it's more of a capitalist thing, right? 00:06:57.744 --> 00:07:01.154 So I'm traveling about all over the place and I'm going up and down in my van. 00:07:01.274 --> 00:07:03.794 And I love, I love, just like, I've made a few coffees. 00:07:03.794 --> 00:07:06.854 I got a little bioethanol stove that I made out of, like I cut a in 00:07:06.854 --> 00:07:10.244 half and like converted that into, you can make into a little, um. 00:07:10.784 --> 00:07:12.464 And so it's bioethanol, so it comes from plants. 00:07:12.464 --> 00:07:13.094 Super efficient. 00:07:13.484 --> 00:07:17.864 And yeah, I literally just made coffee on a, a bench, a service 00:07:17.864 --> 00:07:20.654 station near Scotland, somewhere on the Board of Scotland. 00:07:20.954 --> 00:07:23.774 And I was like right outside the Costa with people coming in and out 00:07:23.774 --> 00:07:25.304 buying their plastic cups full of shi. 00:07:25.894 --> 00:07:26.704 And I was just like, 00:07:26.914 --> 00:07:28.414 big middle fingers up the costa. 00:07:28.414 --> 00:07:31.264 I'm just made a, it was, it was still instant and it was a bit, but it was, 00:07:31.624 --> 00:07:34.354 I'd rather have a coffee than give what is it, Pepsi that owned that. 00:07:34.714 --> 00:07:34.984 So. 00:07:36.004 --> 00:07:37.204 Alexander Karan: Costa's not that good. 00:07:37.654 --> 00:07:40.744 Well, it's, it's four pounds now for a coffee at Costa. 00:07:40.804 --> 00:07:41.734 Phil: It's something ludicrous. 00:07:41.734 --> 00:07:43.294 I'm like, at this point I might as well be getting a pint. 00:07:43.294 --> 00:07:45.514 I know it's eight 30 in the morning, but I'm just gonna buy a pint. 00:07:45.514 --> 00:07:46.204 It's the same price. 00:07:47.779 --> 00:07:48.169 Mike Bifulco: I had Wait. 00:07:48.169 --> 00:07:48.649 That'll wake you up. 00:07:50.074 --> 00:07:50.644 Alexander Karan: yeah. 00:07:50.704 --> 00:07:52.474 That's more expensive than it is here. 00:07:52.744 --> 00:07:55.684 Like that's with, with the exchange, you know? 00:07:55.684 --> 00:07:56.554 That's crazy. 00:07:56.554 --> 00:07:57.154 Wow. 00:07:57.339 --> 00:08:00.269 Phil: Anyway you have a bike in the background and I'm excited 00:08:00.329 --> 00:08:02.129 'cause you have been on a Me and Voyage. 00:08:02.129 --> 00:08:02.564 You wanna tell me about that? 00:08:03.569 --> 00:08:03.929 Mike Bifulco: man. 00:08:03.929 --> 00:08:05.219 Yeah, it's been a whole journey. 00:08:05.219 --> 00:08:09.189 I if, if you've listened to past episodes of this thing, you'll know that Phil and 00:08:09.189 --> 00:08:13.059 I pro probably met originally because of our sort of overlap of tech stuff 00:08:13.059 --> 00:08:15.019 and cycling, but, that's the thing. 00:08:15.019 --> 00:08:15.289 Yeah. 00:08:15.289 --> 00:08:18.529 And it's genuinely been about two years since I've been able to ride. 00:08:18.629 --> 00:08:21.689 I've been dealing with a hip injury since 2018. 00:08:21.789 --> 00:08:25.103 And two surgeries and a whole lot of MRIs later. 00:08:25.103 --> 00:08:27.053 and a bunch of physical therapy and all those other things, I've 00:08:27.053 --> 00:08:28.613 finally just started riding again. 00:08:29.013 --> 00:08:31.743 And I, I am hesitant to say I'm back to fighting strength 00:08:31.743 --> 00:08:32.553 'cause I'm definitely not. 00:08:32.553 --> 00:08:33.873 But I'm like able to get out and tool 00:08:33.873 --> 00:08:34.953 around a little bit and 00:08:35.238 --> 00:08:35.778 Phil: Yeah, 00:08:36.258 --> 00:08:36.888 That's good, man. 00:08:36.888 --> 00:08:37.878 That's gotta feel real good. 00:08:38.328 --> 00:08:39.408 Mike Bifulco: It feels really, really good. 00:08:39.408 --> 00:08:39.648 Yeah. 00:08:39.648 --> 00:08:40.968 It's, it's definitely been cool to see. 00:08:40.968 --> 00:08:44.208 I yeah, it's, it sits behind me as a reminder while I'm on work calls 00:08:44.208 --> 00:08:45.258 that I need to go do that more. 00:08:45.258 --> 00:08:49.438 But yeah, it went from like actually not being able to finish one pedal 00:08:49.438 --> 00:08:52.928 stroke in April to being able to get out and ride 10 or 15 miles 00:08:52.928 --> 00:08:54.458 at a time now, which is, which is. 00:08:54.758 --> 00:08:56.588 Just life changing for me, like 00:08:56.888 --> 00:08:59.878 the mental health part of life balances out a lot from that. 00:08:59.878 --> 00:09:03.548 You know, I was re relegated more or less just to walking around the neighborhood, 00:09:03.548 --> 00:09:04.958 which is nice, you know, it's great. 00:09:04.958 --> 00:09:06.518 It's just not the same, you know what I mean? 00:09:06.818 --> 00:09:08.108 Phil: Yeah, it's 00:09:08.108 --> 00:09:10.958 another one of those situations where like you can just casually make number go up. 00:09:10.958 --> 00:09:13.628 Like you don't need to worry about like busting out cheeky 00:09:13.628 --> 00:09:14.738 centuries straight away. 00:09:14.738 --> 00:09:17.348 Like you'd have to do a hundred miles right now, like you can just 00:09:17.348 --> 00:09:22.088 go and do, yeah, 10 and then 15, and then 20 or maybe smaller increments, 00:09:22.088 --> 00:09:24.758 but you, you get to see number go up and that just is progress again. 00:09:24.758 --> 00:09:24.998 So 00:09:25.328 --> 00:09:25.928 that's really nice. 00:09:25.928 --> 00:09:28.568 The difference between like zero miles and, and, and 10 00:09:28.568 --> 00:09:29.738 is fucking infinite, isn't it? 00:09:29.798 --> 00:09:32.138 So now you've just gotta edge it up a little bit. 00:09:32.268 --> 00:09:33.738 Alexander Karan: Yeah, it's great riding a bike. 00:09:33.768 --> 00:09:37.728 There's like, it's just, you know, because you can go so far, you can do so much, 00:09:37.848 --> 00:09:40.428 you know, and I, I think also the best thing is when you've got a good bike, 00:09:40.488 --> 00:09:45.798 you can also like, just like hardly ever use a car, like just bike everywhere. 00:09:45.888 --> 00:09:46.398 It's great. 00:09:47.073 --> 00:09:47.293 Phil: Mm. 00:09:47.718 --> 00:09:50.463 Mike Bifulco: It is one of very few things I do that occupies all of my limbs 00:09:50.463 --> 00:09:54.553 in a way where I'm definitely not like pulling out my phone to distract myself, 00:09:54.631 --> 00:09:56.326 Phil: Handlebar Mount will fix that for you. 00:09:56.506 --> 00:09:56.926 You can get it 00:09:56.926 --> 00:09:57.886 right up there on the top. 00:09:57.886 --> 00:09:58.006 you. 00:09:58.006 --> 00:09:58.726 can be tweeting and. 00:10:00.046 --> 00:10:01.786 Mike Bifulco: This is not something I'm looking to fix. 00:10:01.846 --> 00:10:03.076 Yeah, it's really nice. 00:10:03.076 --> 00:10:05.296 Like I, I throw my phone in my pocket and don't think about it 00:10:05.296 --> 00:10:08.546 until I'm back home, which is also a massive feature too, you know? 00:10:08.976 --> 00:10:09.756 Yeah, man, I've missed it. 00:10:09.756 --> 00:10:12.476 I'm, I'm happy to see Phil, what, what's your life looking like as 00:10:12.476 --> 00:10:13.646 far as that all goes these days? 00:10:14.146 --> 00:10:15.166 Phil: Absolutely mental. 00:10:15.266 --> 00:10:16.616 I currently am 00:10:17.726 --> 00:10:20.306 not riding as much bikes as I would like. 00:10:20.496 --> 00:10:25.386 I did a few nuts ones a month or two or three ago I did UK two 00:10:25.416 --> 00:10:26.766 Zurich, which was a good laugh. 00:10:27.186 --> 00:10:30.386 And yeah, that one was, Four 50 miles in four and a half 00:10:30.386 --> 00:10:31.406 days to get to a conference. 00:10:32.876 --> 00:10:33.476 So that was, that 00:10:33.476 --> 00:10:34.106 was a good time. 00:10:34.216 --> 00:10:35.551 Alexander Karan: That's, that's insane. 00:10:36.551 --> 00:10:37.751 Phil: Yeah, it was a bit rough. 00:10:37.801 --> 00:10:44.041 The, the, it, every single day I was dealing with headwinds, mostly uphill. 00:10:44.041 --> 00:10:46.681 'cause I'm going to the Alps from the sea, right? 00:10:46.861 --> 00:10:51.241 It was pretty much consistently up headwind and wet and some days were worse. 00:10:51.371 --> 00:10:53.476 Before it was, it was pretty wild. 00:10:53.476 --> 00:10:55.696 But oh, I lost my, I lost my rain jacket. 00:10:56.021 --> 00:10:58.716 On with one hole with, with a day and a half to go. 00:10:59.196 --> 00:11:02.466 And as I was like cycling through Alps and it was just pouring down with 00:11:02.466 --> 00:11:05.436 rain, it was when Switzerland had that, these really bad floods where like 00:11:05.436 --> 00:11:06.756 entire towns were getting washed away. 00:11:06.936 --> 00:11:09.396 And I'm just cycling around in like my hoodie that was 00:11:09.396 --> 00:11:10.846 just soaked through and just 00:11:10.846 --> 00:11:11.296 shivering. 00:11:11.356 --> 00:11:14.056 And I was like, well, if I get cold, I'll just pedal outta Problem solved. 00:11:15.401 --> 00:11:15.621 And. 00:11:23.151 --> 00:11:24.291 Alexander Karan: You did get ill from that. 00:11:24.291 --> 00:11:24.531 Did you? 00:11:25.081 --> 00:11:27.751 Phil: I'm generally ill of something, but that's just 'cause my life is madness. 00:11:27.851 --> 00:11:30.851 I mean the, the main thing I've got going on right now is my charity 00:11:30.851 --> 00:11:35.051 is buying 70 acres of land in bath, which is actually where I'm from. 00:11:35.331 --> 00:11:38.211 One of the, the two accents I flip between is the Bristolian West Country 00:11:38.211 --> 00:11:41.221 one and the rather posh bath accent that falls out now and then but I'm 00:11:41.221 --> 00:11:45.511 from, I'm from Bath and it's really exciting to be working on buying 00:11:45.511 --> 00:11:46.621 some land where I'm actually from. 00:11:48.646 --> 00:11:50.926 People in Cornwall don't really like it when someone from 00:11:50.926 --> 00:11:52.216 not Cornwall buys some land. 00:11:52.426 --> 00:11:54.886 And people in Wales really don't like the English buying at Wales. 00:11:55.046 --> 00:11:58.226 But now if anyone says, what the heck do you think you're doing buying this land? 00:11:58.226 --> 00:11:59.156 I'll be like, I'm from here. 00:11:59.216 --> 00:11:59.666 Shut up. 00:12:01.046 --> 00:12:04.206 And we're doing a which is 50,000 pounds. 00:12:04.206 --> 00:12:07.176 I've been banging the drum for six weeks, but we're now like, 00:12:08.556 --> 00:12:09.841 so it gone over while I'm. 00:12:13.476 --> 00:12:13.956 Mike Bifulco: Wow. 00:12:14.269 --> 00:12:14.539 That's 00:12:14.539 --> 00:12:14.959 incredible. 00:12:14.959 --> 00:12:15.259 Phil. 00:12:15.259 --> 00:12:17.869 Can, Can, you give a little more details on the charity? 00:12:17.869 --> 00:12:19.219 Like how, how long have you been doing it? 00:12:19.219 --> 00:12:21.799 What, what have you all done and how much, how many trees have you 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:25.209 planted and how much land have you now confiscated for, for the earth? 00:12:26.139 --> 00:12:26.949 Phil: I confiscate for the Earth. 00:12:26.949 --> 00:12:29.139 I am gonna Google my own charity one moment. 00:12:29.139 --> 00:12:33.384 But so basically protect Earth has been going since the end of 2020. 00:12:33.384 --> 00:12:38.934 So it's four years and we planted like 4,000 trees in our first year. 00:12:39.234 --> 00:12:39.804 And then like. 00:12:40.764 --> 00:12:43.284 We've got up to a hundred thousand trees after four years. 00:12:43.344 --> 00:12:45.204 So there's a, a big, a big number go up. 00:12:45.634 --> 00:12:49.624 and we are hoping to plant another a hundred thousand this year. 00:12:49.744 --> 00:12:53.044 So the growth is exponential, but we've, we've basically outstripped 00:12:53.044 --> 00:12:54.544 all of our existing funding partners. 00:12:54.594 --> 00:12:55.554 Which is wild. 00:12:55.614 --> 00:12:56.874 'cause we used to be in a position where 00:12:57.274 --> 00:12:57.844 we had more. 00:12:58.924 --> 00:13:02.434 Trying to for trees than we had places to put them, and now we're the other way. 00:13:02.614 --> 00:13:03.894 So it's a bit wild. 00:13:03.894 --> 00:13:07.464 But we, we started off by just planting. 00:13:08.499 --> 00:13:12.369 There's, you know, a couple of farms nearby that, that had some corners 00:13:12.369 --> 00:13:14.529 they weren't really using for food production, and they thought it would 00:13:14.529 --> 00:13:15.969 be nice if it, if we welded that up. 00:13:16.369 --> 00:13:19.159 And now we've gone to much bigger stuff where we're literally buying our own 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.999 land and still working with landowners and doing the sides of motorways 00:13:22.999 --> 00:13:26.569 and hotel grounds and working with councils to plant mini forests and 00:13:26.569 --> 00:13:27.829 parks and all these amazing things. 00:13:27.829 --> 00:13:29.849 But really exciting when we get our own. 00:13:42.134 --> 00:13:44.414 Degraded kind of sheep blasted hillside. 00:13:44.464 --> 00:13:48.544 And even the, even the, the, the sheep farmer there said 00:13:48.634 --> 00:13:49.774 this has been overgrazed. 00:13:49.774 --> 00:13:51.934 Like when sheep farmers are saying this has been overgrazed, you know, 00:13:51.934 --> 00:13:52.984 it's, it's having a rough one. 00:13:53.414 --> 00:13:55.244 And we're reforesting that and 00:13:55.664 --> 00:13:58.904 another 27 acres that we're leasing, which is a bit of an experiment in 00:13:58.904 --> 00:14:02.504 like trying to find a huge amount of money just to buy the land. 00:14:02.829 --> 00:14:04.869 And then start to do some work is a bit silly. 00:14:05.149 --> 00:14:05.959 Well, not a bit silly. 00:14:05.959 --> 00:14:08.939 We can protect it forever, but it's quite an expensive way to go about it. 00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:13.069 But yeah, this experiment, leasing a small bit, doing all the work, sticking 00:14:13.069 --> 00:14:16.549 a covenant on the land that says, Hey, whoever ends up with this in a few years 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:18.169 time, you've gotta protect this woodland. 00:14:18.409 --> 00:14:20.989 And then we can shove off and work on something else somewhere else. 00:14:20.989 --> 00:14:23.299 So our land is, is going. 00:14:24.188 --> 00:14:26.108 Mike Bifulco: That is truly staggering. 00:14:26.598 --> 00:14:30.013 I, I feel like I, I bump into people often who know you, Phil, but I also 00:14:30.013 --> 00:14:33.433 bump into a lot of people who don't know you, and that is more challenging because 00:14:33.433 --> 00:14:35.083 I have to then describe you to them. 00:14:35.443 --> 00:14:38.803 Like, oh yeah, this, this guy who I, I ki I work with, I kind of work 00:14:38.803 --> 00:14:40.393 with who I know I've never met. 00:14:40.393 --> 00:14:40.423 I. 00:14:40.898 --> 00:14:42.188 And he lives in a van. 00:14:42.638 --> 00:14:43.958 He's smart, I promise. 00:14:43.958 --> 00:14:46.568 You know, and it's like, I, I feel like if I had a headline that was just 00:14:46.628 --> 00:14:49.898 continually updated where it's like the man has planted a hundred thousand 00:14:49.898 --> 00:14:53.628 trees and, you know, re forested this many acres of land, like if you could 00:14:53.628 --> 00:14:57.288 just give me that tweet length thing updated every week, it would help my 00:14:57.288 --> 00:14:58.428 endeavors a great deal. 00:14:59.028 --> 00:15:01.218 Alexander Karan: actually doing something about climate change. 00:15:01.983 --> 00:15:02.343 Phil: Yeah. 00:15:02.343 --> 00:15:03.573 Another thing or two about climate change. 00:15:03.573 --> 00:15:03.693 Yeah. 00:15:03.693 --> 00:15:07.413 I've been like currently getting in a fight with like the, the Dale Vince 00:15:07.413 --> 00:15:11.583 who's got like a net worth of 107 million or billion, I don't even know. 00:15:11.963 --> 00:15:14.843 Just this like really rich dude that runs a major energy company and he 00:15:14.843 --> 00:15:16.793 is like, oh yeah, heat pumps are bad. 00:15:16.793 --> 00:15:17.633 We don't need heat pumps. 00:15:17.633 --> 00:15:18.593 We can just like. 00:15:18.868 --> 00:15:23.998 Turn 70 of all of England into like hay and then collect that to make, and we can. 00:15:24.358 --> 00:15:28.083 Then we've got all this 00:15:30.813 --> 00:15:31.643 about heat pumps, 00:15:33.703 --> 00:15:33.923 so. 00:15:34.473 --> 00:15:36.093 Yeah, trying to educate 00:15:36.093 --> 00:15:41.043 people about the climate crisis and do a bunch of tree planting because the trees 00:15:41.043 --> 00:15:42.903 that I plant are somewhat pointless. 00:15:42.903 --> 00:15:45.843 If emissions keep going up, I don't want to, you know, capture 00:15:45.843 --> 00:15:49.473 some carbon from the increase of terrible things that are happening. 00:15:49.473 --> 00:15:52.323 I want my trees to be sucking up, you know, atmospheric carbon 00:15:52.323 --> 00:15:54.273 as line go down on how much we. 00:15:55.898 --> 00:15:56.188 Alexander Karan: Yeah. 00:15:57.668 --> 00:16:00.548 Yeah, it's, it's, I think that's difficult anywhere, right? 00:16:00.668 --> 00:16:04.478 Like, you know, in Australia, w we have like, our emissions per 00:16:04.478 --> 00:16:06.758 capita is incredibly high, like 00:16:06.758 --> 00:16:08.978 per person for such a small population. 00:16:08.978 --> 00:16:14.618 But also like we export so much fossil fuels, you know, like, you know, 00:16:14.618 --> 00:16:17.828 like, and WW Woodside, the company that. 00:16:18.473 --> 00:16:22.223 I shouldn't name, but I'm going to anyway, like nwa, they just like, 00:16:22.223 --> 00:16:23.993 they're like, no, gas is the future. 00:16:24.083 --> 00:16:25.433 We need more gas. 00:16:25.433 --> 00:16:25.973 And I'm like, but 00:16:25.973 --> 00:16:29.183 you sell 95% of your gas offshore. 00:16:29.183 --> 00:16:30.953 We don't, we don't need the gas. 00:16:30.983 --> 00:16:31.223 Like, 00:16:31.568 --> 00:16:31.898 Phil: Right. 00:16:33.218 --> 00:16:33.428 yeah, 00:16:33.428 --> 00:16:35.588 We're doing the same thing in the UK with the, the British 00:16:35.588 --> 00:16:37.138 government the previous government. 00:16:37.188 --> 00:16:40.908 It was, it was now, it's now being deemed that the previous government handed out 00:16:40.908 --> 00:16:45.948 North Sea licenses illegally, like they were un unlawfully handed out because they 00:16:46.318 --> 00:16:49.078 When they did their like emissions estimates, they forgot to take 00:16:49.078 --> 00:16:51.478 into account the burning of the gas they were producing. 00:16:51.838 --> 00:16:54.088 They're just like, nah, we stuck some solar panels on top of the drill. 00:16:54.088 --> 00:16:55.318 So it's basically carbon neutral. 00:16:55.318 --> 00:16:56.998 They're like, yeah, but what about when you burn it? 00:16:56.998 --> 00:16:58.843 They're like, ah, don't worry about it. 00:16:59.096 --> 00:17:00.101 Alexander Karan: We do that too. 00:17:00.406 --> 00:17:00.556 Phil: the 00:17:00.556 --> 00:17:03.496 instead of the new government, like immediately ripping up those licenses 00:17:03.496 --> 00:17:07.616 and saying, nah they've it's been left to a charity conglomerate to 00:17:07.976 --> 00:17:12.326 take the government to court to try and get those licenses revoked. 00:17:12.716 --> 00:17:16.196 And at least the labor government said, okay, we choose not to 00:17:16.196 --> 00:17:19.731 fight this in court ourselves, but they're leaving it to the gas fight. 00:17:20.521 --> 00:17:20.811 Said. 00:17:21.131 --> 00:17:24.071 Not only are we not gonna fight this, we're also gonna just like unilaterally 00:17:24.071 --> 00:17:25.631 completely remove all of those licenses. 00:17:25.631 --> 00:17:26.831 But they don't wanna do that. 00:17:26.831 --> 00:17:27.041 So 00:17:27.521 --> 00:17:28.091 that's something. 00:17:28.311 --> 00:17:28.581 But we've 00:17:28.581 --> 00:17:31.161 gotta, we all need to sort our shit out a whole lot more. 00:17:32.031 --> 00:17:32.481 And the answer 00:17:32.511 --> 00:17:33.411 isn't vegan gas. 00:17:34.491 --> 00:17:37.731 Mike Bifulco: We face an oddly similar thing in the US We're a, as we record 00:17:37.731 --> 00:17:40.881 this, like 14 days away from the presidential election in the US and 00:17:41.191 --> 00:17:44.041 which means I get to hear a lot of politicians, you know, chattering 00:17:44.041 --> 00:17:45.241 about everything under the sun. 00:17:45.481 --> 00:17:45.691 And the 00:17:45.691 --> 00:17:49.861 weirdest thing is hearing the left-leaning politicians in West Virginia saying like, 00:17:49.921 --> 00:17:53.521 we love the coal miners, we need the coal mining industry at Powers West Virginia. 00:17:53.911 --> 00:17:54.151 But we 00:17:54.151 --> 00:17:55.591 probably need to get you guys like. 00:17:55.936 --> 00:17:59.566 A Cisco certification or something just in case coal mining goes away. 00:17:59.566 --> 00:18:03.356 You know it's, it's weird to hear them with a foot in both both worlds for sure. 00:18:03.356 --> 00:18:05.126 But that's what they have to do to sell boats, you know? 00:18:05.511 --> 00:18:06.591 Alexander Karan: so strange. 00:18:06.591 --> 00:18:12.171 So we actually did something here with native logging, which I don't know why 00:18:12.171 --> 00:18:18.351 they don't extend to like the coal and oil and, and and all that more aggressively, 00:18:18.351 --> 00:18:22.851 but like we were like, okay, we're gonna end native logging in these areas. 00:18:22.851 --> 00:18:25.101 'cause we've got like incredible forests in Australia. 00:18:25.101 --> 00:18:25.881 Like I cannot. 00:18:26.256 --> 00:18:28.266 Describe to you what the forests are like. 00:18:28.266 --> 00:18:30.276 Like they put England's forest to shame. 00:18:30.336 --> 00:18:31.836 They're just Wow. 00:18:32.166 --> 00:18:32.526 Right. 00:18:32.526 --> 00:18:35.346 And like we, we, you know what? 00:18:36.771 --> 00:18:42.171 Tens of millions of dollars, you know, into that community to help transition and 00:18:42.171 --> 00:18:45.081 bring other places there to transition. 00:18:45.081 --> 00:18:47.991 We gave them a time period to transition from the native logging, 00:18:48.441 --> 00:18:51.801 you know, we set up forests that was specifically for logging. 00:18:52.221 --> 00:18:54.711 Like, you know, I was like, why, why do we not do that in 00:18:54.711 --> 00:18:57.111 like the, the coal gas industry? 00:18:57.111 --> 00:18:59.241 Instead, we're like, nah, it's, it's part of the future. 00:18:59.241 --> 00:19:00.261 Let's, let's do more. 00:19:00.291 --> 00:19:00.891 You know, it's, 00:19:00.891 --> 00:19:01.851 it's such a weird, 00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:05.670 Phil: Well, the thing is the, a lot of the, a lot of the messaging takes a really 00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:08.490 long time to break through and then gets like held onto for far too long, right? 00:19:08.490 --> 00:19:10.840 So gas was a bridge solution. 00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:11.560 We're past it. 00:19:11.620 --> 00:19:15.370 Like you know, if, if, if in the nineties and in the two thousands people were 00:19:15.370 --> 00:19:18.030 saying like, Hey, let's get rid of some gas and we can let's get rid of some 00:19:18.030 --> 00:19:19.590 coal and we can replace it with some gas. 00:19:20.290 --> 00:19:22.900 20, 30 years ago, that was absolutely the right thing to do. 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:23.200 Sure. 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:23.650 We've gone 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.490 way too hard for way too long and we forced it onto all these like, developing 00:19:27.490 --> 00:19:28.960 countries that can't afford to pay for it. 00:19:29.110 --> 00:19:32.110 So they're screwed and they can't afford to do an energy transition, and 00:19:32.110 --> 00:19:34.840 we also refuse to lend them any money at a discount to help 'em do that. 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:38.650 But it kind of was a solution for a while in the same way that like biomass 00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:41.800 for a while was considered using 00:19:42.250 --> 00:19:44.710 waste chip from, from logging, and. 00:19:48.020 --> 00:19:50.840 Shut down a coal plant and switch it over to to biomass. 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.490 And that was a great idea in like the eighties and the nineties and 00:19:54.490 --> 00:19:57.160 two thousands, but they're still building more of that stuff now, 00:19:57.460 --> 00:19:58.690 and so they can't get enough of it. 00:19:58.690 --> 00:20:01.630 So they're starting to do dumber and dumber things to get ahold of it, and 00:20:01.630 --> 00:20:02.650 they should just be getting rid of it. 00:20:02.650 --> 00:20:03.550 And, and people were going, 00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:06.580 well, all these experts back then said it was a good idea. 00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:07.630 It was back then. 00:20:07.630 --> 00:20:08.590 It's not then anymore. 00:20:09.545 --> 00:20:09.815 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, it 00:20:09.815 --> 00:20:10.505 takes a long time to 00:20:10.505 --> 00:20:11.285 steer that ship. 00:20:11.285 --> 00:20:12.425 Alexander Karan: It's so funny. 00:20:12.695 --> 00:20:13.115 Yeah. 00:20:13.115 --> 00:20:16.785 And we've got states in Australia, like south Australia, it's got 00:20:16.785 --> 00:20:19.965 like the world's biggest battery connected to the electrical grid. 00:20:20.385 --> 00:20:20.655 You know, 00:20:20.655 --> 00:20:25.165 they produce so much renewable energy that their bills are so much 00:20:25.165 --> 00:20:26.755 cheaper, you know, meanwhile, like the 00:20:26.755 --> 00:20:27.505 east coast. 00:20:27.725 --> 00:20:30.575 Where, where, where energy is also privatized, right? 00:20:30.575 --> 00:20:34.955 It's not state run, but also just very heavy gas and coal base. 00:20:34.955 --> 00:20:37.805 Like it's just the prices are through the roof as well, you 00:20:37.805 --> 00:20:38.795 know, they're like, we need more. 00:20:40.335 --> 00:20:42.465 Phil: I've, I've seen some really good things about Australia. 00:20:42.465 --> 00:20:45.935 Have like entire entire states, provinces, what you calling them? 00:20:47.245 --> 00:20:47.665 Alexander Karan: states. 00:20:47.765 --> 00:20:48.465 So yeah, we're 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:50.520 well states and territories. 00:20:50.520 --> 00:20:51.660 States and territories. 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:51.840 So 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:52.290 there's like, 00:20:52.475 --> 00:20:52.715 Phil: Right. 00:20:52.715 --> 00:20:56.555 Well, whichever, there's big chunks of Australia that are kind of, you know, 00:20:56.585 --> 00:21:00.455 90% renewable and aiming to be a hundred percent and some of them up to 60%. 00:21:00.455 --> 00:21:02.705 Like there's, there's areas doing really well and a lot of that 00:21:02.705 --> 00:21:05.375 without hydro, which is good 'cause they were just flooding entire salt 00:21:05.375 --> 00:21:06.395 marshes, which isn't very clever. 00:21:06.875 --> 00:21:07.355 Alexander Karan: Yeah, we 00:21:07.355 --> 00:21:08.615 we do some good stuff. 00:21:09.455 --> 00:21:12.125 Phil: Doing really well, but then there's people saying like, oh, currently 00:21:12.125 --> 00:21:15.815 we've only got 50% of our energy being powered by wind and that's why it's bad. 00:21:15.815 --> 00:21:18.035 It's like, well, you haven't built very much and it's doing quite a lot. 00:21:18.035 --> 00:21:19.325 If you some more it be doing more. 00:21:19.528 --> 00:21:20.143 Sounds like you wanna build 00:21:20.143 --> 00:21:20.663 some more mate. 00:21:21.108 --> 00:21:21.918 Alexander Karan: that, that is it. 00:21:21.918 --> 00:21:25.458 So I'll do one thing in Australia's I people that like 00:21:25.458 --> 00:21:26.898 work at the energy companies. 00:21:28.008 --> 00:21:30.138 There is so much land in 00:21:30.138 --> 00:21:36.408 Australia, like just, just so much land and like, it's really hard to negotiate 00:21:36.408 --> 00:21:41.148 like, with all those land owners and like get all the, you know, and then, 00:21:41.148 --> 00:21:44.688 and then also like all the lawyers that sit in the middle just try to make money 00:21:44.688 --> 00:21:46.818 off of like the negotiations as well. 00:21:46.818 --> 00:21:48.738 And it's, it's real tough. 00:21:48.828 --> 00:21:49.278 It's real 00:21:49.413 --> 00:21:49.953 Phil: Yeah. 00:21:49.953 --> 00:21:50.373 Half the 00:21:50.373 --> 00:21:52.138 cost of any of those projects is just fees. 00:21:52.288 --> 00:21:52.578 Yeah. 00:21:52.691 --> 00:21:52.961 Alexander Karan: Yeah. 00:21:52.961 --> 00:21:53.381 That's it. 00:21:53.501 --> 00:21:53.801 Yeah. 00:21:53.921 --> 00:21:54.821 It's just so big. 00:21:56.406 --> 00:21:59.566 Mike Bifulco: So this, this is maybe a good place to pivot some of the 00:21:59.566 --> 00:22:00.611 next things I was interested in. 00:22:00.646 --> 00:22:03.286 So, Alexandra, last time you and I actually talked on the podcast, 00:22:03.286 --> 00:22:05.236 you were at Climate Clever doing 00:22:05.236 --> 00:22:06.316 climate things. 00:22:06.601 --> 00:22:06.961 Alexander Karan: Trying to 00:22:06.961 --> 00:22:07.801 save the world. 00:22:08.148 --> 00:22:10.128 So Climate clever got sold. 00:22:10.388 --> 00:22:13.958 And I mean, look, I'm not gonna complain because, you know, I 00:22:13.958 --> 00:22:16.178 ended up dating my co-founder. 00:22:16.238 --> 00:22:18.248 We, you know, moved in together. 00:22:18.248 --> 00:22:20.198 We had a baby, you know, life's great. 00:22:20.258 --> 00:22:20.708 So, 00:22:20.866 --> 00:22:21.856 Phil: Dating has changed. 00:22:21.856 --> 00:22:22.576 It's complicated. 00:22:23.446 --> 00:22:24.171 you gotta set up a company 00:22:24.411 --> 00:22:24.771 together now. 00:22:26.051 --> 00:22:26.516 Alexander Karan: yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:27.236 --> 00:22:30.026 Who needs dating apps when you could just date your boss? 00:22:30.026 --> 00:22:30.296 Right? 00:22:30.296 --> 00:22:30.596 Like 00:22:31.076 --> 00:22:35.150 I I always, I always, I like to say she took advantage of me, but nobody 00:22:35.150 --> 00:22:39.350 cares when I say that they just high five her for some reason I. 00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:40.180 Mike Bifulco: I love that 00:22:40.180 --> 00:22:40.330 man. 00:22:40.330 --> 00:22:41.440 Australia's different. 00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:43.720 Alexander Karan: yeah, it's the other way around. 00:22:43.770 --> 00:22:47.640 So, you know, it was nice doing like community stuff and like having 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:51.150 like a really good impact, like watching schools save money on their 00:22:51.150 --> 00:22:54.480 utility bills and reducing their emissions and using that money for 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.010 like their library budget and stuff. 00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:59.700 And then we started working in businesses, so I was a little sad, like when. 00:23:00.225 --> 00:23:02.655 'cause we had some laws delayed in Australia that really 00:23:02.655 --> 00:23:03.705 affected climate, clever. 00:23:03.705 --> 00:23:07.275 Like they kept pushing back the mandatory reporting and it just 00:23:07.305 --> 00:23:08.625 had such a shockwave on us. 00:23:08.625 --> 00:23:11.778 So the business ended up getting sold and I just kind of felt really 00:23:11.778 --> 00:23:15.888 lost 'cause it was so weird, like actually coding and having purpose. 00:23:15.948 --> 00:23:20.928 So I decided to do the middle life sensible thing and get a job in big tech. 00:23:20.928 --> 00:23:24.835 So I got a job Atlassian, and the reason I took the job Atlassian. 00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:28.250 Because like I figured they do the least evil, right? 00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:29.270 Like, you know, out of 00:23:29.270 --> 00:23:32.960 all the, out all the big tech companies like Jira and Confluence 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.520 aren't really trying to kill anyone. 00:23:34.520 --> 00:23:36.350 So I thought, you know, that's a good start. 00:23:36.850 --> 00:23:37.150 Yeah. 00:23:37.150 --> 00:23:39.400 Do I have to, why would this Jira ticket close? 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:42.430 I keep pressing down and I refresh and it's still in progress. 00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:42.700 Right. 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.750 But you know, like they've got a good work life balance remote work, which is great. 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:48.190 So I gotta spend more time with my son. 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.620 And they had this like, interesting position open in finops, which, 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.700 you know renewable energy actually falls under, well not 00:23:55.700 --> 00:23:56.750 renewable energy, but you know. 00:23:57.019 --> 00:23:57.679 Phil: Yeah, the green 00:23:57.679 --> 00:23:59.599 the green team doing carbon accounting and yeah. 00:24:00.154 --> 00:24:03.904 Alexander Karan: yeah, so I, I, I joined finops and so like I work on 00:24:03.904 --> 00:24:08.384 like improving code and architecture and infrastructure setups to you know, 00:24:08.384 --> 00:24:10.154 make our cloud spend more efficient. 00:24:10.214 --> 00:24:14.984 I also build tools to help teams across the company understand the 00:24:14.984 --> 00:24:16.814 cloud spend and their cloud usage. 00:24:17.289 --> 00:24:17.559 I'm 00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:21.489 also working on some projects with our ESG team to help teams 00:24:21.489 --> 00:24:23.889 understand the footprint of their services, which is pretty fun 00:24:23.889 --> 00:24:24.069 too. 00:24:24.069 --> 00:24:27.609 So I still get to have that little bit of like, sustainability. 00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:28.779 So like, yeah. 00:24:28.779 --> 00:24:32.769 And then like on the side, like I'm still teaching, so like I, I, I teach at 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:36.459 foundation called Sheet Codes, which is all about getting more women into tech. 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:39.909 So, you know, I'm still tea still teaching there. 00:24:39.909 --> 00:24:40.389 That's my 00:24:40.389 --> 00:24:40.659 like. 00:24:41.284 --> 00:24:43.834 Good bit for the community that I still do. 00:24:43.834 --> 00:24:46.894 You know, like that makes me feel all happy and warm inside. 00:24:47.494 --> 00:24:51.394 But yeah, so like mostly most every day is just like build more tools to 00:24:51.394 --> 00:24:56.974 help people understand costs, identify cost spikes, you know, A API wise, 00:24:56.974 --> 00:25:02.014 like most, like our front end is mostly GraphQL, so like I deal with GraphQL 00:25:02.014 --> 00:25:03.754 when I'm dealing with user facing stuff. 00:25:03.754 --> 00:25:06.784 But like internally for our tools, there's a lot of rest APIs. 00:25:07.489 --> 00:25:09.979 Um, and then like, you know, which is, which is good. 00:25:09.979 --> 00:25:14.839 Like, 'cause it's all like the only downside I, I like, I really hope none 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.599 of my colleagues hear this 'cause I don't want them to hear me bagging on it. 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:22.909 But like, it's so much like Spring Boot and, and Java and Kotlin. 00:25:22.939 --> 00:25:26.179 Now Kotlin, Kotlin and Java aren't, aren't that bad actually. 00:25:26.179 --> 00:25:26.359 Really? 00:25:26.419 --> 00:25:29.269 And I come from like, go and Node, so it's like a different, it was a 00:25:29.269 --> 00:25:33.109 different world, but like there's so much of Spring Boot that I'm just like. 00:25:33.344 --> 00:25:35.624 Ah, it, I want to love Spring Boot. 00:25:35.684 --> 00:25:36.494 I really do. 00:25:36.854 --> 00:25:38.564 'cause sometimes it does things That's great. 00:25:38.564 --> 00:25:42.134 And other times I'm like, why are you making building an API so difficult. 00:25:42.134 --> 00:25:45.164 Why, why is documenting it so difficult? 00:25:45.554 --> 00:25:49.904 Like, you know, I, I wanna do, you know, design driven development, but you are 00:25:49.904 --> 00:25:52.694 forcing me to do code driven development. 00:25:52.694 --> 00:25:55.634 You know, like it's, there's just, there's aspects of it that make 00:25:56.909 --> 00:25:57.434 Phil: I've had really 00:25:57.434 --> 00:26:00.164 weird moments with that, like trying to get docs out of a spring, 00:26:00.164 --> 00:26:05.414 API, 'cause we work out a bunch of that and it was like you had to 00:26:05.744 --> 00:26:07.274 use an annotations based system. 00:26:07.274 --> 00:26:08.414 There was nothing else. 00:26:08.804 --> 00:26:13.514 And you had to like run the entire application in order to get that 00:26:13.514 --> 00:26:15.254 open API out, there's no way 00:26:15.254 --> 00:26:15.884 to just be like. 00:26:16.224 --> 00:26:19.314 Generate, which all of the node, all of the go, all of the PHP 00:26:19.314 --> 00:26:21.894 tools, they all have that even, you know, even the annotation ones, 00:26:22.134 --> 00:26:25.074 you just run a little command and it loads up just enough and does a little 00:26:25.074 --> 00:26:28.014 bit of static analysis and it grabs that and chucks it in a file for you. 00:26:28.194 --> 00:26:28.734 But this is like, 00:26:28.944 --> 00:26:31.914 you need to set up a database so you can see what endpoints of API 00:26:31.914 --> 00:26:33.414 has and it absolutely fuck off. 00:26:34.139 --> 00:26:36.809 Alexander Karan: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's so, it's so weird. 00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:38.789 I'm like, why hasn't this been added? 00:26:38.789 --> 00:26:39.119 Right? 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.429 Like, 'cause I'm, I'm used to like doing what you're saying, like, design 00:26:41.429 --> 00:26:46.379 an API, I've got an open API spec that generates a lot of boilerplate for me. 00:26:46.379 --> 00:26:46.919 And then like, I. 00:26:47.209 --> 00:26:51.049 In some of the node and go frameworks, it then takes those like you know, 00:26:51.049 --> 00:26:55.399 JSO schemas for your request bodies and speeds up passing as well. 00:26:55.399 --> 00:26:55.639 Right? 00:26:55.639 --> 00:26:57.589 Like, and I just, yeah. 00:26:57.649 --> 00:26:59.599 Like, I, I miss that so much. 00:26:59.689 --> 00:27:01.999 But yeah, I mean it's, it's pretty, it's a pretty cool job. 00:27:01.999 --> 00:27:05.959 We get to do some fun stuff, like the scale issues that you just. 00:27:06.139 --> 00:27:08.869 Don't have, unless you're a company Atlassian size. 00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:09.169 Right? 00:27:09.169 --> 00:27:12.769 Like, you know, one, one tiny compression change could like, you 00:27:12.769 --> 00:27:15.919 know, ramp up CP usage in the millions. 00:27:15.919 --> 00:27:16.129 Right? 00:27:16.129 --> 00:27:16.639 Like it's, 00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:23.119 it's, it's fun and, you know, I'm like using Tant Stack Query on the front for 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.819 dealing with the rest API, which is like a, a really nice, beautiful wave just. 00:27:29.189 --> 00:27:32.579 Working with and like if you do the rest API really well, like you 00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:34.439 can just easily filter on stuff. 00:27:34.439 --> 00:27:34.979 Great search. 00:27:35.549 --> 00:27:38.039 It's just, yeah, that's, so, that part's nice. 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.629 But yeah, I just, I miss being fully design driven because I feel like Spring 00:27:42.629 --> 00:27:45.599 Boot like really resists that like it's, 00:27:45.629 --> 00:27:49.019 it's more code driven, which is the only thing that makes me sad API 00:27:49.349 --> 00:27:53.219 Phil: Which I think is a bit of a mindset of, of the average Java developer as well. 00:27:53.219 --> 00:27:55.979 It's like, why would I wanna write some when I could write a shit load 00:27:55.979 --> 00:27:57.719 of Java to do the same thing and. 00:28:01.709 --> 00:28:03.029 Alexander Karan: Well, it's, it's, it's funny 'cause like 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:04.499 Kotlin has come along and Right. 00:28:04.529 --> 00:28:07.259 Kotlin is like, it's a beautiful language, right? 00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:10.359 Like it's you know, I've been writing Kotlin now for a year and a half. 00:28:10.869 --> 00:28:14.379 Honestly, one of my top three languages fallen in 00:28:14.379 --> 00:28:15.219 love with it, right? 00:28:15.219 --> 00:28:17.199 And it's mindset is so different. 00:28:17.199 --> 00:28:17.349 So. 00:28:18.209 --> 00:28:21.299 You'd think that there would be a different mindset around that sort of 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:25.169 stuff, but because like people still use a lot of spring, I guess, which is 00:28:25.169 --> 00:28:27.239 still really more Java based, right? 00:28:27.239 --> 00:28:29.519 It's just, yeah, it's different. 00:28:30.214 --> 00:28:30.454 Phil: For sure. 00:28:30.454 --> 00:28:34.374 I mean, it's one of the things I've been writing a lot for Bump, bump sh, 00:28:34.374 --> 00:28:38.444 the API, documentation providers and writing a lot for them, which is nice 00:28:38.444 --> 00:28:40.874 to, you know, they're hiring me to work on some really interesting topics. 00:28:40.874 --> 00:28:45.014 But we we just did a, a, a piece kind of really taking a whole bunch of steps 00:28:45.014 --> 00:28:49.754 back and, and not getting stuck in the weeds on really nerdy, obscure, open a. 00:28:51.434 --> 00:28:53.264 Why is an API contract a good thing? 00:28:53.664 --> 00:28:57.174 And that was a fun one to write of, just like, this isn't extra work. 00:28:57.234 --> 00:29:01.154 Oh, I did another blog post on a similar vein, which was the, we 00:29:01.154 --> 00:29:05.854 don't have time to write API docs paradox where you basically end up. 00:29:06.184 --> 00:29:08.434 Completely forgetting how your a p works. 00:29:08.494 --> 00:29:12.294 And then a few months later end up, you just have to rebuild it because 00:29:12.294 --> 00:29:15.264 that team has moved on and someone quit and all of the documentation was 00:29:15.264 --> 00:29:17.304 in a random Slack channel full of now. 00:29:17.714 --> 00:29:21.344 And yeah, literally end up building a whole API to replace it instead 00:29:21.344 --> 00:29:23.214 of instead of just looking at the 00:29:23.214 --> 00:29:28.734 docs to find out how it works at meaning. 00:29:31.354 --> 00:29:33.664 And yeah, like doing, doing stuff like that. 00:29:33.664 --> 00:29:37.384 I'm, I'm really hoping it feels like trying to explain to people 00:29:37.384 --> 00:29:38.674 that tests are a good idea. 00:29:38.984 --> 00:29:41.684 You know, it, it's like they're not more work. 00:29:41.834 --> 00:29:46.064 It's, this is, this is something that you do once and it saves you 00:29:46.064 --> 00:29:50.684 time immediately and forever in more ways than you can think about. 00:29:50.714 --> 00:29:53.864 'cause you've got an API contract, you can use it for contract testing, 00:29:53.864 --> 00:29:56.984 you can use it for SDK generation, you can use it for thousand things. 00:29:57.354 --> 00:29:57.624 but 00:29:57.774 --> 00:29:58.974 yeah, they don't wanna hear it. 00:30:00.269 --> 00:30:01.529 Alexander Karan: I miss contract testing. 00:30:01.529 --> 00:30:05.099 So much like, it's like it's, it's the best type of testing. 00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:07.139 It's, it's, it's, it's so good. 00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:07.949 It's so good. 00:30:08.969 --> 00:30:09.269 Phil: Right. 00:30:09.659 --> 00:30:12.919 Well, it's the most important thing for an API 'cause an API like the, 00:30:12.949 --> 00:30:15.019 the, the IPA interface, right? 00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:18.079 You wanna make sure that your interface is actually doing what you said it would be. 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.939 Not just doing random, whatever it feels like, and not just 00:30:20.939 --> 00:30:21.929 changing every now and then. 00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.509 Like if you don't have contract testing, you don't have an API, you have some 00:30:24.509 --> 00:30:25.979 random shit on an endpoint somewhere. 00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:27.844 That's not helpful. 00:30:29.504 --> 00:30:32.399 Alexander Karan: I, I'm gonna go to work tomorrow and say that guys, 00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:36.299 Phil said this is just some random shit on an endpoint somewhere. 00:30:36.394 --> 00:30:38.969 Phil: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I've got this really cool thing. 00:30:38.969 --> 00:30:40.229 It's gonna be for our business. 00:30:41.189 --> 00:30:42.029 Call this url. 00:30:42.029 --> 00:30:43.379 It does some random shit that's. 00:30:45.700 --> 00:30:46.715 Mike Bifulco: So Phil, what have you been up to? 00:30:47.010 --> 00:30:47.730 Phil: Oh heck. 00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:48.530 Where have I been up to? 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:53.220 So, apart from all the charity stuff I got, I set up a splinter 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:55.570 faction at APIs API Days London. 00:30:55.570 --> 00:30:56.350 That was really fun. 00:30:56.650 --> 00:31:00.670 I was pestering Baptist for like a, a free ticket 'cause I'm broken. 00:31:00.670 --> 00:31:01.360 I run a charity. 00:31:01.725 --> 00:31:04.605 'cause I was actually gonna be in the area and had plans to meet some people 00:31:04.905 --> 00:31:08.155 and he, he's busy running a massive conference and didn't get back to me. 00:31:08.155 --> 00:31:10.135 And then the other organizer was like, oh shit, Phil's around. 00:31:10.135 --> 00:31:10.915 We shoulda let him come. 00:31:11.305 --> 00:31:13.015 But I was like, whatever, I don't care. 00:31:13.165 --> 00:31:16.055 I'm just gonna set up a little pub meet around the corner. 00:31:16.355 --> 00:31:17.705 And we got loads of people. 00:31:17.705 --> 00:31:19.715 They were like 20, 30 people came by. 00:31:19.775 --> 00:31:21.660 All the see. 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:27.030 There was, yeah, the, the, the bump team and Tom from Wok and Baba, 00:31:27.630 --> 00:31:30.540 some of the Smart Bear people, Frank Gil Cummins, that was it. 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:32.940 And Eric Wild loads of really cool people. 00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:34.020 All just Lorna Mitchell. 00:31:34.350 --> 00:31:36.540 Loads of people just chatting away and having a nice one. 00:31:36.570 --> 00:31:37.320 So that was really good. 00:31:37.560 --> 00:31:39.570 I literally came in from the woods. 00:31:40.155 --> 00:31:44.625 And had to UI chained together every single free charger that I knew in 00:31:44.625 --> 00:31:46.245 all these like rural countryside pubs. 00:31:46.575 --> 00:31:50.265 And I was like sleeping over in a car park on the slow triple charger so I could 00:31:50.265 --> 00:31:54.225 get all the way to London and then just met them for a pint and shuffled off. 00:31:54.645 --> 00:31:55.425 That was really funny. 00:31:56.055 --> 00:31:57.435 Uh, and I liked that, but. 00:31:58.280 --> 00:32:00.830 API stuff, like, I'm doing a lot of writing at the moment, which works 00:32:00.830 --> 00:32:05.000 out really well for me because I, I just get, like, I've got a backlog 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.150 of, of content that needs in for bump and for do little ad hoc pieces. 00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:11.820 Sometimes I like write an article and then see who would like it. 00:32:11.820 --> 00:32:17.120 So the Tim Perry for h been doing a lot of bits for him here and 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:20.780 there and basically, yeah, it's just letting me write more content. 00:32:21.245 --> 00:32:24.605 Then I would have time to do for just purely APIs you won't hate because we 00:32:24.605 --> 00:32:27.545 have got a few paid subscribers and I love you guys, but we do with a few more. 00:32:27.935 --> 00:32:30.995 But yeah, I, I've just really been enjoying writing more recently and I'm 00:32:30.995 --> 00:32:35.495 kind of using some of these articles to kind of ramp myself back up into 00:32:35.495 --> 00:32:37.505 building APIs you won't hate too. 00:32:37.955 --> 00:32:38.195 Oops. 00:32:38.195 --> 00:32:40.785 I did it again which is a working title, but I might go with a. 00:32:42.135 --> 00:32:44.055 Mike Bifulco: It has been nice seeing you get, get back into writing. 00:32:44.055 --> 00:32:47.475 So proliferally Phil I feel like one of the things that that happens is. 00:32:47.975 --> 00:32:50.705 There's like a network effect of you launching things into the 00:32:50.705 --> 00:32:53.435 internet where people start getting in touch about, like, ideas and 00:32:53.435 --> 00:32:55.265 tangential problems that they have. 00:32:55.605 --> 00:32:55.845 Phil: Sure. 00:32:55.845 --> 00:32:58.515 I mean as well, like Alexander, it's a lot of it's thanks to you as well. 00:32:58.515 --> 00:33:02.195 'cause your, your, your newsletters are amazing and they teach me things and it's 00:33:02.195 --> 00:33:07.455 really nice to kind of, not, I'm not doing as much stuff but I still am interested 00:33:07.455 --> 00:33:10.635 and I'm still trying to like, teach people about things and you seem to have your 00:33:10.635 --> 00:33:11.925 finger on the pulse a little bit more. 00:33:12.105 --> 00:33:13.275 So I quite often like read. 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.140 Read the newsletter and I'll be like, oh shit, I didn't know about that. 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:16.830 That's really cool. 00:33:17.310 --> 00:33:18.870 That's a, where did find that? 00:33:19.260 --> 00:33:19.380 Sure. 00:33:19.380 --> 00:33:19.890 We put it on our, 00:33:24.510 --> 00:33:26.040 do we have more articles yet? 00:33:29.425 --> 00:33:31.110 Alexander Karan: The, the, the social pressure. 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:31.290 The 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:32.645 social pressure, yeah. 00:33:34.005 --> 00:33:34.755 Mike Bifulco: That's a good way to be. 00:33:34.755 --> 00:33:36.075 It's a forcing function we needed. 00:33:38.295 --> 00:33:41.740 Phil: I got more to do about green tech in APIs as well, which I'll have to talk to 00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:43.440 you about Alexander because yeah, there's, 00:33:43.540 --> 00:33:48.430 I did that like introductory to green software in general for Eric, but I, I 00:33:48.430 --> 00:33:53.860 made big promises that I haven't kept about talking about how API design 00:33:53.860 --> 00:33:56.740 can impact carbon and, and a lot. 00:33:56.740 --> 00:33:57.040 It's just. 00:33:58.075 --> 00:34:02.545 Article from Fastly about design your APIs to be more, I'm pretty much redoing that, 00:34:02.545 --> 00:34:04.135 but you know, with a polar bear on it. 00:34:04.525 --> 00:34:12.347 But it, it is really about kind of, you can, you can make your API run incredibly. 00:34:12.347 --> 00:34:16.877 Quickly and serve a lot of requests that shouldn't need to be made. 00:34:17.147 --> 00:34:22.767 And that's still, you know, dumber than having a slightly less optimized 00:34:22.767 --> 00:34:24.567 API that you don't call very often. 00:34:24.567 --> 00:34:26.932 So literally just kind of set your caching up properly. 00:34:27.512 --> 00:34:28.952 is is a really big thing. 00:34:29.172 --> 00:34:32.112 And then of course all the usual database optimizations that everyone needs to make. 00:34:32.112 --> 00:34:34.962 But there, there are things that we just don't think or talk about. 00:34:34.962 --> 00:34:39.372 And especially with the, the rush towards like Jason API include all the things 00:34:39.372 --> 00:34:42.732 and GraphQL like, let's fetch the whole bloody thing and one request, like, 00:34:43.002 --> 00:34:45.837 let's fire these massive uncatchable resources around all over the place. 00:34:45.837 --> 00:34:49.362 And you want one more bit of data, you just load it all again, screw it. 00:34:49.642 --> 00:34:50.092 All of that 00:34:50.092 --> 00:34:52.102 mindset of the last couple of years has been a problem. 00:34:52.937 --> 00:34:54.557 Alexander Karan: But it's architecture skills, right? 00:34:54.557 --> 00:34:55.307 Like this, this, 00:34:55.307 --> 00:34:58.847 this, and this is also the thing that worries me with AI driven development 00:34:58.847 --> 00:35:00.107 or whatever you call it as well, right? 00:35:00.107 --> 00:35:02.897 Like writing an endpoint is easy. 00:35:02.927 --> 00:35:05.447 You know, writing a a database is easy. 00:35:05.477 --> 00:35:09.077 Building a webpage is easy, but like architecture, an API layer, 00:35:09.137 --> 00:35:10.907 modeling your data in a good way. 00:35:11.407 --> 00:35:16.447 That sort of like you, you only learn that from like experience and failures 00:35:16.447 --> 00:35:20.647 and read and like proper reading and understanding of why other people 00:35:20.647 --> 00:35:22.837 have built stuff a certain way. 00:35:22.837 --> 00:35:23.227 Right? 00:35:23.257 --> 00:35:23.647 Like, 00:35:23.942 --> 00:35:25.417 and, and and that's hard. 00:35:25.447 --> 00:35:27.757 Like it's easy to build an endpoint and whack it all in there. 00:35:27.757 --> 00:35:31.897 It's, it's hard to think about your resources and like actually split 00:35:31.897 --> 00:35:36.847 your API up correctly, put things on the correct roots, you know. 00:35:37.322 --> 00:35:40.532 Metadata linking, like it's, it's tricky. 00:35:40.532 --> 00:35:46.172 Like you need to actually sit and think and plan and that's 00:35:46.532 --> 00:35:49.292 Phil: If anyone, if anyone would like to do that, I really enjoy those sessions. 00:35:49.292 --> 00:35:52.627 So I've been doing a few contracting contracting consulting ad hoc 00:35:52.627 --> 00:35:55.627 stuff here and there, you know, two hour API, deep dives we call them. 00:35:55.907 --> 00:35:59.347 And yeah, I've had, I've had this conversation a hundred times where someone 00:35:59.347 --> 00:36:03.817 is trying to plan their API, we had a university and we were saying like, right, 00:36:03.817 --> 00:36:05.497 what, what does your API need to do? 00:36:05.497 --> 00:36:07.447 And immediately they jumped straight into. 00:36:11.667 --> 00:36:14.667 Hang on, let's not worry about what shape your data will take 00:36:14.667 --> 00:36:16.137 or how you describe that data. 00:36:16.137 --> 00:36:19.017 Let's back way up and like fundamentally, what was your 00:36:19.017 --> 00:36:20.547 API doing and I managed to kind 00:36:20.547 --> 00:36:24.027 of say like, let's go through, are you gonna have one API or multiple? 00:36:24.027 --> 00:36:24.897 Like what do these do? 00:36:24.897 --> 00:36:29.427 What is the style of API, not even graph, like fundamentally is this 00:36:29.427 --> 00:36:32.667 a datadriven API, where you're essentially a generic database 00:36:35.997 --> 00:36:36.177 a. 00:36:41.472 --> 00:36:43.092 And then it was, how many APIs do you need? 00:36:43.092 --> 00:36:46.932 And they, they were trying to make an API that was basically one API that 00:36:46.932 --> 00:36:51.462 could, that had like teachers, students, organizational stuff and some other bits. 00:36:51.732 --> 00:36:54.822 And those were gonna be like, I guess four different endpoints. 00:36:55.417 --> 00:36:58.207 And then like depending on whether you were a user or teacher, it would 00:36:58.207 --> 00:37:00.037 show you some different embedded data. 00:37:00.037 --> 00:37:02.797 And it was all this like really weird super variable stuff. 00:37:02.797 --> 00:37:05.312 Like based on this context, I might see that permiss 00:37:07.417 --> 00:37:11.147 make this four completely separate APIs that have different different scopes. 00:37:11.487 --> 00:37:16.417 So you've got like a, a student, API that has my courses and my exams 00:37:16.417 --> 00:37:17.947 and all of the stuff related to me. 00:37:18.247 --> 00:37:20.737 And I can see some teacher information, but I can't see their 00:37:20.737 --> 00:37:22.147 home address and their phone number. 00:37:22.417 --> 00:37:25.447 You know, like you just make that be one thing for, for them. 00:37:25.657 --> 00:37:28.037 And there were lots of like individual resources and sub 00:37:28.037 --> 00:37:31.132 resources, and you could sign up for a course and all these little bits. 00:37:31.557 --> 00:37:35.487 And just kind of separating it out like that and having a a a a teacher's 00:37:35.697 --> 00:37:39.367 specific API for all the stuff that teachers would need in their, in their 00:37:39.367 --> 00:37:39.697 scope. 00:37:39.697 --> 00:37:42.877 And they had some similar but quite different resources, but they could 00:37:42.877 --> 00:37:46.267 all be per perfectly cached because it's not like all weird and variable 00:37:46.267 --> 00:37:48.067 based on the scope of the access token. 00:37:48.067 --> 00:37:48.187 So 00:37:48.577 --> 00:37:49.327 trying to get, trying to 00:37:49.327 --> 00:37:50.827 go through stuff like that is really hard. 00:37:50.887 --> 00:37:51.157 Yeah. 00:37:52.232 --> 00:37:55.142 Alexander Karan: Well, people just, it's, it's, so for me, it's like people 00:37:55.142 --> 00:37:59.672 are like, oh yeah, crud, that's, that's API, I'm like, no, no, that's like crud. 00:37:59.672 --> 00:38:04.502 Iss not API, or, or it's like, okay, well we need this specific thing in our ui, so 00:38:04.502 --> 00:38:06.242 we're gonna build this endpoint for it. 00:38:06.302 --> 00:38:09.722 And I'm, I'm always like, but, but how do we reuse that? 00:38:09.722 --> 00:38:10.802 Like, what's the 00:38:10.802 --> 00:38:11.882 actual resource? 00:38:11.887 --> 00:38:16.022 What, what, you know, it's, it's, it's all, it's, it's, right. 00:38:16.022 --> 00:38:19.562 It's like people never take a step back and really think about it. 00:38:19.622 --> 00:38:20.192 And when you 00:38:20.192 --> 00:38:22.142 think about it, that's when the speed comes in. 00:38:22.142 --> 00:38:23.492 That's when the caching comes in. 00:38:23.942 --> 00:38:28.622 That's when the optimizations actually, you know what, the optimizations are easy. 00:38:28.622 --> 00:38:29.972 Because they're obvious. 00:38:29.972 --> 00:38:32.822 Because you've layered it well, right? 00:38:32.822 --> 00:38:35.102 You've designed it well, know. 00:38:35.402 --> 00:38:37.232 Mike Bifulco: I think it's a process a lot of people don't go through until 00:38:37.232 --> 00:38:39.302 they've felt the pain too, right? 00:38:39.302 --> 00:38:39.662 Like we, 00:38:39.692 --> 00:38:43.322 we, I think in, in a weird way, a lot of developers spend a ton of time thinking 00:38:43.322 --> 00:38:47.042 about their edge based architecture and serverless stuff that will truly 00:38:47.042 --> 00:38:50.492 never be a problem for them with their, you know, even thousands of users. 00:38:50.492 --> 00:38:54.342 You can get away with a, a small VPS but it is really easy to get yourself into. 00:38:54.432 --> 00:38:58.187 I, I think the technical term is a data mess with your API and, 00:38:58.357 --> 00:39:02.017 something that that deserves a whole lot more thought than people realize, 00:39:02.017 --> 00:39:03.247 and the more upfront the better. 00:39:03.277 --> 00:39:06.427 'cause it's a hell of a lot of trouble to unwind once you've already 00:39:06.427 --> 00:39:08.977 built things on top of something that becomes problematic, you know? 00:39:09.817 --> 00:39:11.077 Phil: Yeah, I think the. 00:39:11.782 --> 00:39:17.392 The reason that it's hard for people is that an API is seen as a developer's job. 00:39:17.582 --> 00:39:21.092 Just like you might have to go and write some functions or design a form. 00:39:21.402 --> 00:39:23.502 It's kind of seen as like throw an engineer at it. 00:39:23.502 --> 00:39:24.372 And what does an engineer do? 00:39:24.372 --> 00:39:25.092 They wanna write code. 00:39:25.472 --> 00:39:28.052 So that's, that's why API design first is so hard 'cause they 00:39:28.052 --> 00:39:29.222 wanna write code, not yaml. 00:39:29.532 --> 00:39:32.952 But you know, they're not used to stakeholder engagement. 00:39:36.252 --> 00:39:36.522 Need to. 00:39:37.157 --> 00:39:41.357 Get 10 potential users or beta users, or the front end team or whoever in 00:39:41.357 --> 00:39:43.577 a room and talk about their needs. 00:39:43.577 --> 00:39:47.207 And don't even try and translate those needs into, into Jason structures 00:39:47.207 --> 00:39:48.797 immediately or endpoint straight away. 00:39:49.067 --> 00:39:52.877 But you need to talk about like functionally in human words, what 00:39:52.877 --> 00:39:54.317 actions are you trying to take? 00:39:54.647 --> 00:39:57.077 And then once I've got a list of what actions that we're trying to 00:39:57.077 --> 00:39:58.967 take, we can then start to kind of. 00:39:59.282 --> 00:40:02.912 Do a, do a mind map diagram of, of how these concepts 00:40:02.912 --> 00:40:04.202 might relate, and then we can 00:40:04.202 --> 00:40:07.532 start to draw some boundaries around it, about which APIs are which, and then we 00:40:07.532 --> 00:40:11.732 can start to talk about, okay, maybe we're gonna talk about the resources and actions 00:40:11.732 --> 00:40:12.932 and endpoints that they might have. 00:40:13.052 --> 00:40:18.032 But that's like, you know, day three of the planning process and not the 00:40:18.032 --> 00:40:20.072 first thing you do, which I'm, I'm. 00:40:23.657 --> 00:40:26.237 A hate says step one, write down list of things. 00:40:26.237 --> 00:40:29.292 You wanna turn, turn, 00:40:31.257 --> 00:40:31.887 Alexander Karan: Yeah. 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:33.030 yeah. 00:40:33.030 --> 00:40:35.010 but it's, it's, it's the human problem. 00:40:35.490 --> 00:40:36.780 It's the human problem, right? 00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:39.720 Like it's, it's like, it's like the hard part about being an 00:40:39.720 --> 00:40:41.730 engineer isn't writing code. 00:40:41.790 --> 00:40:46.350 It's like talking to people and planning and navigating multiple 00:40:46.350 --> 00:40:49.560 stakeholders and different people and bringing them together, right. 00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:51.000 It's always the hard part. 00:40:51.390 --> 00:40:51.870 It's, it's, 00:40:51.870 --> 00:40:52.740 it's never the 00:40:52.740 --> 00:40:53.190 code. 00:40:53.461 --> 00:40:54.331 Phil: People are hard code's. 00:40:54.331 --> 00:40:54.721 Easy. 00:40:54.871 --> 00:40:56.136 I got AI to write for now. 00:40:56.136 --> 00:40:56.496 Don't worry. 00:40:56.496 --> 00:40:57.496 Just code. 00:40:58.497 --> 00:41:01.137 Mike Bifulco: Alright, so one other thing I wanted to get to before we wrap 00:41:01.187 --> 00:41:04.957 the, the record today is I feel like the internet has fractured itself in the 00:41:04.957 --> 00:41:07.987 past couple years where it's harder to find people online and harder to find 00:41:07.987 --> 00:41:10.207 the places to listen to people online. 00:41:10.547 --> 00:41:13.612 I, I personally have given up on Twitter quite a while ago 00:41:13.612 --> 00:41:14.852 and no longer use Twitter. 00:41:15.027 --> 00:41:17.457 I've been, I've been using threads for about a year and 00:41:17.457 --> 00:41:18.927 I've found it pretty satisfying. 00:41:18.987 --> 00:41:22.977 It is of course another social network owned by another billionaire who is doing 00:41:22.977 --> 00:41:24.777 his best to humanize himself and whatever, 00:41:25.392 --> 00:41:28.422 Phil: Yeah, but he did promise to punch Elon Musk in the face, which I support. 00:41:29.352 --> 00:41:31.152 Alexander Karan: and he is got a cool chain now as well. 00:41:31.152 --> 00:41:31.752 Like what 00:41:31.992 --> 00:41:33.222 chain and a fro, right. 00:41:33.312 --> 00:41:33.762 Phil: He's got 00:41:33.762 --> 00:41:34.362 bling. 00:41:34.467 --> 00:41:34.857 Mike Bifulco: haircut. 00:41:34.857 --> 00:41:35.217 Yeah. 00:41:35.767 --> 00:41:40.737 I'm, I'm also, this week I feel like I've heard a lot about the tech community 00:41:40.737 --> 00:41:42.177 kind of jumping over to Blue Sky. 00:41:42.712 --> 00:41:45.022 Alexander Karan: Yeah, Kelsey Hightower jumped over. 00:41:45.382 --> 00:41:45.712 Yeah. 00:41:45.712 --> 00:41:50.332 So Kelsey Hightower jumped over and like the second he did, like, 00:41:50.392 --> 00:41:53.602 I felt like everyone else, I mean, like, he has a lot of sway, 00:41:53.872 --> 00:41:57.232 but like he's really big in the infrastructure space and he's, he 00:41:57.232 --> 00:41:59.902 like, he's always really good at talking about things and being really 00:41:59.902 --> 00:42:02.422 open and like, you know, really 00:42:02.422 --> 00:42:03.712 focusing on fundamentals. 00:42:03.712 --> 00:42:04.732 So the second he did it, I. 00:42:06.037 --> 00:42:08.047 Half of half of everyone. 00:42:08.077 --> 00:42:11.557 And I've been on there for a while and all of a sudden it was busy and, and 00:42:11.557 --> 00:42:14.497 like I was, people were interacting with my own posts. 00:42:14.527 --> 00:42:15.067 And I was like, 00:42:15.577 --> 00:42:19.597 this is, I mean, 'cause I, I'm still on Twitter because like, I stay on there 00:42:19.597 --> 00:42:23.167 because some tech people are still there and I need it for the newsletter, like, 00:42:23.677 --> 00:42:23.977 like. 00:42:24.502 --> 00:42:25.222 Mike Bifulco: That's fair. 00:42:25.237 --> 00:42:25.747 Phil: Yeah. 00:42:26.392 --> 00:42:28.462 Mike Bifulco: I still squat my account on Twitter, to be fair. 00:42:28.462 --> 00:42:30.952 Mine is marked as private so that no one can like create a 00:42:30.952 --> 00:42:33.472 new account under my name and do whatever garbage they're gonna do. 00:42:33.862 --> 00:42:35.092 I just don't log in any longer. 00:42:35.692 --> 00:42:39.122 So it sounds like Alexander, are, are you actor active on Blue Sky? 00:42:39.122 --> 00:42:41.672 Is that primarily your, your spot on the internet now or you 00:42:41.732 --> 00:42:44.772 Alexander Karan: Yeah, it's, it's me and that, that and my website and 00:42:45.252 --> 00:42:46.812 I guess, I guess LinkedIn. 00:42:46.842 --> 00:42:51.552 I've seen a bit of the tech community on LinkedIn, which is, is is super 00:42:51.552 --> 00:42:54.912 weird 'cause like in between posts of people like being real estate 00:42:54.912 --> 00:42:57.312 agents with Lamborghinis and houses. 00:42:58.392 --> 00:43:02.172 You know how how to structure a database and like all this other 00:43:02.172 --> 00:43:04.962 weird interaction, but yeah, most, mostly blue sky these days. 00:43:05.787 --> 00:43:06.147 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:43:06.462 --> 00:43:06.972 Phil: Nice. 00:43:07.077 --> 00:43:07.197 Mike Bifulco: you? 00:43:07.697 --> 00:43:09.257 Phil: I'm kind of on all the things at the minute. 00:43:09.317 --> 00:43:13.837 On Mastodon, I'm still on X just because I actually, oh, I went back to pay for it. 00:43:13.837 --> 00:43:17.047 I had, I had, I was off for a month stopped paying for it for a month, but 00:43:17.047 --> 00:43:20.797 then like, just black hold and the fact that I'm trying to do a crowdfunder. 00:43:21.062 --> 00:43:21.482 You know what I mean? 00:43:21.482 --> 00:43:25.022 Like the more people see the, my tweets, the more, the more money my charity gets. 00:43:25.022 --> 00:43:27.512 So I'm, I'm kind of locked in for a while, but I refuse to put the 00:43:27.512 --> 00:43:30.212 company, the, the charity credit card anywhere near that jerk. 00:43:30.792 --> 00:43:33.722 I'm, I'm still on Twitter for now, ri writing out the I'm trying to be 00:43:33.722 --> 00:43:38.642 king of the shit pile, but, I'm on Mastodon, on threads and on blue Sky. 00:43:38.642 --> 00:43:41.062 They all have slightly different feelings, but I I like how much of 00:43:41.062 --> 00:43:44.322 the climate community and now say community are getting over there. 00:43:44.932 --> 00:43:46.162 Alexander Karan: I was gonna say, I think we need to put 00:43:46.192 --> 00:43:47.902 APIs won't hate on Blue Sky. 00:43:47.902 --> 00:43:48.172 I feel 00:43:48.172 --> 00:43:49.252 like there's enough of tech 00:43:49.252 --> 00:43:49.672 Twitter 00:43:49.672 --> 00:43:49.912 over 00:43:49.987 --> 00:43:50.797 Phil: do you want to do it? 00:43:52.177 --> 00:43:52.252 I can't. 00:43:52.627 --> 00:43:53.827 I have so many accounts. 00:43:54.157 --> 00:43:54.667 God dammit. 00:43:54.667 --> 00:43:58.057 I was so excited to like close down a few accounts on, on, on Twitter for 00:43:58.057 --> 00:44:00.697 like the charity and for other places because we're like, screw this guy. 00:44:00.697 --> 00:44:03.847 I'm not doing seven accounts on here anymore, but I can't handle anymore. 00:44:05.597 --> 00:44:07.132 Alexander Karan: I'm, I'm happy to set it up. 00:44:07.222 --> 00:44:08.122 Yeah, if you want. 00:44:08.962 --> 00:44:10.732 Phil: I'll just put you on the spot on live on air. 00:44:11.162 --> 00:44:12.362 But no, we should, we should do that. 00:44:12.362 --> 00:44:12.842 That'd be good. 00:44:12.842 --> 00:44:15.902 And Mastodon, I quite like it's still got this like really small 00:44:15.902 --> 00:44:19.772 community feel where like people I don't really know, just like are super 00:44:19.772 --> 00:44:22.502 friendly and supportive and get really excited about the charity stuff and 00:44:22.502 --> 00:44:23.913 like volunteer and come help out. 00:44:23.918 --> 00:44:27.212 And it's just like I'm meeting new people in the village 00:44:27.212 --> 00:44:28.682 pub over there all the time. 00:44:31.172 --> 00:44:33.902 But I threads is, is such a dumb one. 00:44:33.902 --> 00:44:36.422 I felt like it got noticeably worth worse a month ago. 00:44:36.782 --> 00:44:42.722 But I posted a video of the SpaceX Rocket re landing itself, getting caught, 00:44:43.022 --> 00:44:44.972 and I put credit where credit's due. 00:44:45.482 --> 00:44:49.082 Elon Musk did a really good job of taking credit for this, and no one read it. 00:44:49.592 --> 00:44:50.972 No one read what I said. 00:44:51.152 --> 00:44:53.482 They all went didn't have anything to do with Elon Musk. 00:44:53.482 --> 00:44:54.562 Oh no, he didn't do it. 00:44:54.562 --> 00:44:55.312 The engineers did. 00:44:55.732 --> 00:45:00.232 And like 50 people, like 3000 likes, but 50 people just replied 00:45:00.232 --> 00:45:01.522 being like, oh, I didn't read what 00:45:01.522 --> 00:45:04.072 you said, and I'm angry, and I'm just like, this is not the 00:45:04.072 --> 00:45:05.422 replacement for X that we need. 00:45:05.422 --> 00:45:05.602 Is it 00:45:08.302 --> 00:45:09.172 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, yeah. 00:45:09.592 --> 00:45:10.762 It's been, it is been frustrating. 00:45:10.762 --> 00:45:13.782 I'm, I am definitely still gonna be posting on threads. 00:45:13.782 --> 00:45:16.482 I feel like I've found a small group of people there that I 00:45:16.482 --> 00:45:17.423 really enjoy learning from. 00:45:17.937 --> 00:45:18.057 I. 00:45:18.082 --> 00:45:21.172 And I'm trying to find people on blue sky. 00:45:21.572 --> 00:45:24.602 The, the process of starting an account with zero anythings is always like, 00:45:24.602 --> 00:45:27.002 a little bit like, man, do I actually have the energy for this or not? 00:45:27.002 --> 00:45:27.302 You know? 00:45:27.527 --> 00:45:27.917 Alexander Karan: So 00:45:27.917 --> 00:45:31.907 they've actually got this cool list feature like in Blue Sky. 00:45:31.967 --> 00:45:34.907 They've got like this cool list feature where it's like database experts and 00:45:34.907 --> 00:45:36.197 you can click the list and just press 00:45:36.542 --> 00:45:36.932 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:45:36.977 --> 00:45:37.307 Alexander Karan: and it just 00:45:37.307 --> 00:45:37.517 like, 00:45:37.952 --> 00:45:38.462 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:45:38.462 --> 00:45:41.492 It's a thing called starter packs that I started seeing where I found 00:45:41.492 --> 00:45:43.652 the Ruby on Rails starter Pack the other day and I started following it. 00:45:43.652 --> 00:45:45.632 You click one button and you get all of the people there. 00:45:45.942 --> 00:45:48.792 I need to find more of those and also find my way onto some of those so 00:45:48.792 --> 00:45:50.232 that I I make some friends over there. 00:45:50.907 --> 00:45:51.177 Alexander Karan: Yeah. 00:45:51.312 --> 00:45:52.662 An API starter pack. 00:45:52.922 --> 00:45:53.402 Mike Bifulco: Yeah, 00:45:53.466 --> 00:45:54.666 Phil: that's a really good shout actually. 00:45:54.666 --> 00:45:54.966 Yeah. 00:45:55.656 --> 00:45:56.946 Alexander Karan: It is just, just Phil. 00:45:59.331 --> 00:45:59.691 Phil: do you need? 00:45:59.751 --> 00:46:00.321 What else do you need? 00:46:00.871 --> 00:46:01.351 That's funny. 00:46:01.351 --> 00:46:02.581 No, we should, that would be really good. 00:46:02.581 --> 00:46:05.101 If we set up a blue sky, then I'll, I'll help make a, a list 00:46:05.101 --> 00:46:06.541 of all the people what are cool. 00:46:06.761 --> 00:46:09.881 And we can go and talk to our friends at women and APAs and get a bunch of them on 00:46:09.881 --> 00:46:12.851 the list if they're interested, because that will help help people get started. 00:46:13.361 --> 00:46:14.921 Um, yeah, that. 00:46:16.146 --> 00:46:16.496 Mike Bifulco: There. 00:46:18.326 --> 00:46:20.756 Phil: Well, I was gonna say there's the, the best thing to do as well 00:46:20.756 --> 00:46:22.886 is to get the like follower bridges. 00:46:22.886 --> 00:46:26.126 So blue sky just released a follower bridge where you can kind of sign 00:46:26.126 --> 00:46:30.506 in with your X account and then also your blue, blue sky account and 00:46:30.506 --> 00:46:31.886 it'll kind of transfer the followers. 00:46:31.886 --> 00:46:36.396 So that really doesn't get you followers, but when people see someone they recognize 00:46:36.396 --> 00:46:38.166 come in, they go, yay, and click back. 00:46:38.166 --> 00:46:39.656 So that's, I like. 00:46:45.741 --> 00:46:46.671 Mike Bifulco: That's a solid idea. 00:46:47.221 --> 00:46:47.491 Phil: Right. 00:46:47.761 --> 00:46:50.971 Well, the one thing I wanted to say is that we are taking a more concerted 00:46:50.971 --> 00:46:54.391 effort to do regular newscast, hopefully a bit more regular podcast. 00:46:54.671 --> 00:46:56.981 We're doing a lot more stuff and there's a bit of a chicken and egg 00:46:56.981 --> 00:47:00.761 problem, which is I would like to dedicate more time to doing more stuff. 00:47:00.761 --> 00:47:03.581 I would like to make more videos on whatever you ask us to do. 00:47:03.971 --> 00:47:06.791 I would like to do a lot more content for the premium subscribers, but 00:47:06.791 --> 00:47:07.811 we don't really have very many. 00:47:08.776 --> 00:47:12.646 Take time away from the charity and which doesn't pay me and the client work 00:47:12.646 --> 00:47:16.091 in order to do a, you know, four hours of recording a video for nine bucks. 00:47:16.091 --> 00:47:19.721 So if a few more of you can sign up as a premium subscriber, I promise we'll 00:47:19.721 --> 00:47:22.931 get you a lot more cool stuff and you'll support the content that we're already 00:47:22.931 --> 00:47:24.851 giving out for free for everybody else. 00:47:24.971 --> 00:47:25.761 So you should go to 00:47:25.821 --> 00:47:26.181 APOs. 00:47:26.181 --> 00:47:29.121 You won't hate, there is a smash that subscribe button 00:47:29.361 --> 00:47:30.351 and, and you just click on. 00:47:33.176 --> 00:47:36.301 Alexander Karan: and, and like, like Phil said, he'll do whatever you want, so. 00:47:39.036 --> 00:47:40.981 Phil: API OnlyFans coming your way 00:47:40.981 --> 00:47:42.271 for no one that wants that. 00:47:42.621 --> 00:47:43.521 Mike Bifulco: That's hilarious. 00:47:44.271 --> 00:47:44.811 Phil: disgusting. 00:47:44.841 --> 00:47:44.871 Mike Bifulco: I. 00:47:45.021 --> 00:47:45.621 Phil: End podcast. 00:47:48.756 --> 00:47:51.756 Mike Bifulco: Well listen, both of you is fantastic, catching up 00:47:51.756 --> 00:47:53.406 on that extremely strange note. 00:47:53.406 --> 00:47:57.626 I will have a link in the show notes to our only fills where 00:47:57.626 --> 00:47:59.906 you can find everything you want about APIs you won't hate. 00:48:00.121 --> 00:48:02.941 I'll, I'll drop as many links as I can to everything we've chatted about 00:48:02.941 --> 00:48:04.471 here and, and get this published soon. 00:48:04.661 --> 00:48:06.491 And the three of us ought to do this more often. 00:48:06.491 --> 00:48:07.021 I'll put 00:48:07.021 --> 00:48:09.661 my hand in the air as saying, I'm gonna try and organize the next one of these 00:48:09.661 --> 00:48:11.521 around the beginning of the, of next year. 00:48:11.831 --> 00:48:11.921 so 00:48:11.921 --> 00:48:14.231 hopefully we can catch up in early 2025 for a shout. 00:48:14.571 --> 00:48:17.001 And if you're listening to this, please share the podcast with. 00:48:17.061 --> 00:48:17.811 A friend. 00:48:17.811 --> 00:48:21.021 If you know someone who's interested in APIs in our world, 00:48:21.261 --> 00:48:22.161 we'd love to hear from them. 00:48:22.161 --> 00:48:23.031 We'd love to meet you. 00:48:23.081 --> 00:48:24.251 Chase us down on the socials. 00:48:24.251 --> 00:48:27.221 You'll find links to the mess of places that we just talked 00:48:27.221 --> 00:48:28.511 about in the show notes as well. 00:48:28.931 --> 00:48:31.391 until next time, thanks so much for listening to APIs. 00:48:31.391 --> 00:48:32.861 You won't hate Alexander. 00:48:33.051 --> 00:48:34.071 Phil, thanks so much it. 00:48:36.886 --> 00:48:37.226 See you. 00:48:38.801 --> 00:48:39.131 Phil: That was a.