[00:00:00] Antony Whitaker: Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and as always, it's great to have you here with us today. Now, there are only a small number of hairdressers who at any one time influence hairdressing all over the world.
[00:00:22] Antony Whitaker: I've been fortunate enough to interview some of them on the podcast, and I always relish the chance to find out what it is that separates their ability from others. And what really separates them is how they think, how they think about fashion, about art, about people, about creativity, about culture, about collaboration, and how they channel all of that into their work.
[00:00:45] Antony Whitaker: My guest on today's podcast is returning guest Eugene Suleiman, who is without doubt one of the very top session hairdressers in the world today. Eugene is that rare breed of hairstylist who rarely is an artist, as much as he genuinely dislikes being called that. His work inspires many other editorial hairstylists and salon hairdressers the world over.
[00:01:09] Antony Whitaker: And along with two or three other people, he is at the very top of the pile. So without further ado, welcome back to the podcast. Eugene Souleiman.
[00:01:18] Eugene Souleiman: Thank you. It's a, it's a pleasure to be back, Antony. Uh, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.
[00:01:25] Antony Whitaker: Good. Me too. You know, I can't believe that the last time we spoke was three years ago. Yeah. Yeah. No, truly. Like I, I had a look and it was July, 2021. 
[00:01:37] Eugene Souleiman: there was a question that I didn't ask you, which, which I want to ask you now.
[00:01:42] Antony Whitaker: Um, because it opens up a lot of areas about what you do and about what we all do as hairdressers. It's a simple question, but it's a big question at the same time. And so I'm interested to get your take on it. And that is how do you define beauty? 
[00:02:00] Eugene Souleiman: I mean
[00:02:00] Antony Whitaker: in 60 seconds or less!
[00:02:03] Eugene Souleiman: beauty for me really is all about energy and connection in its simplistic way. Uh, and I think we're all discovering beauty, aren't we?
[00:02:15] Antony Whitaker: Yep,
[00:02:15] Eugene Souleiman: I am. And
[00:02:17] Antony Whitaker: ongoing, evolving thing, yeah.
[00:02:19] Eugene Souleiman: ongoing conversation. Um, and I find, right, it's a little bit like, um, if I look at it in the physical sense, right, there is like probably a type of woman that I'm really attracted to. Right, that would be, that would be my obvious type of beauty, and that would be someone with dark hair, light skin, and very, very light blue eyes, right? That's the kind of woman that I would be attracted to. Um, having said that, they're probably not the only type of beauty that I'm attracted to. So I kind of feel that
[00:03:00] Eugene Souleiman: energy and, and, and character and the stories that a person has, their experiences are the things that I find intriguing and attractive. You know, so beauty for me isn't purely a physical thing. It's a, it's an energy thing. It's someone's vibe. It's their story, you know, and I look at beauty in a very loose way. You know, and I think when people look at beauty, they think about beauty in a, in a very generic sense, right? And I don't, I, I like someone that has a thing that is indicative to them.
[00:03:43] Eugene Souleiman: It's their personal thing. And that's the thing that I find beautiful. I remember once, right, um, when I was at Trevor's, I, I, I had a kind of a largish lady come in and. She had long, drab, curly hair, right, that she kind of scrunched right as she put up. And she wanted a real, a real complete change. And she came in and she said, literally, I want to cut all my hair off and I want it pink. She had a really effervescent personality.
[00:04:20] Antony Whitaker: Mm.
[00:04:20] Eugene Souleiman: was, she was a larger-than-life character. She had like a big laugh and she was, she was a very bright person. And I remember, right, catching, um, catching another hairdresser in the mirror listening to our conversation and looking at their face and And I could tell what was going on by looking at their face and they were, they were like, they were processing it going, Oh my God, that's going to look, that's going to look terrible on her.
[00:04:48] Eugene Souleiman: You know, like she's a big lady. She wants a round haircut. She wants this color. She's got rosy cheeks and you know, aesthetically, right. That's not going to work for her. I thought it would work for her. I thought she had the character. to be able to pull it off. And it really would suit her and make her look more of who she is and make her become even more beautiful. And I went down that road, you know, I said, yeah, great. You look amazing. Let's do it. And the guy next to me was like, Oh my God, I can't, I can't believe he's doing that.
[00:05:29] Eugene Souleiman: I can't believe he's doing that. And we did it. And she looked amazing. She was, she was more of her. She looked more beautiful. It really suited her character. Uh, and it, and it really amped her up as a person. So sometimes, right. Doing the things that we are taught about proportion, anesthetics, and body shape don't really matter.
[00:05:55] Eugene Souleiman: The person matters, right? Their story matters, their, their attitude matters. And she, she looks incredible. Like she walks out in the salon and she felt, she felt like she was a foot taller. She felt like herself. And that for me was really very beautiful. And I felt, I felt she looked really beautiful and more attractive as a person because she was who she was.
[00:06:23] Antony Whitaker: yeah. That sums up to me what, what suitability is. And I know I've said it before on previous podcasts, but the best definition I've heard of suitability is making someone look on the outside the way they feel on the inside.
[00:06:36] Eugene Souleiman:  Absolutely. Yes.
[00:06:38] Antony Whitaker: you know what I mean? And that just sort of nails what you've 
[00:06:41] Eugene Souleiman: I mean, you know, like it, it, it, it made my day. I was so happy after doing that. Right. And, and I'm still happy. Right. Like 25 years later,
[00:06:53] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:06:54] Eugene Souleiman: know, I think to make that much of a difference, uh, for someone to someone to make them feel like them and really happy about how they fit, how they, how they looked and how they felt. I mean, what a great, what a great trade. I mean, if you think about it, right, and you work with people on, uh, kind of level, it's great,
[00:07:19] Antony Whitaker: yeah. And that's what your job is now, interpreting
[00:07:22] Eugene Souleiman: absolutely.
[00:07:24] Antony Whitaker: the designer, the photographer, what they want that character to be like, to feel like, to look like. And that's,
[00:07:32] Eugene Souleiman: Absolutely, right. And, you know, and designers are very interesting people, They're extremely complex as, as individuals,
[00:07:44] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:07:45] Eugene Souleiman: right. And, and that for me is, um, the, one of the most exciting things I, I like about my job, absolutely. Because I feel I'm looking at what I do from a completely different perspective, I'm looking at it from someone else's perspective.
[00:08:05] Eugene Souleiman: That's not necessarily a perspective that actually does understand hair or the nature of hair, or how you would technically approach hair. Right? Like some designer would say to me, uh, you know, like I want the hair to be full, but I want it to look wet. Now we know, right. If you make hair full, right. It needs to be dry, right. Cause it needs to be light
[00:08:28] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:08:29] Eugene Souleiman: Right. So it's like this contradictory creative process and it really kind of, for me, it pulls out something that I, I absolutely love. I love that, that challenge of creating the impossible,
[00:08:46] Antony Whitaker: You've got everyone thinking about that now. How do you make it You've got people listening to this thinking How on earth can you do that? Make it full, but look wet. Have you ever had that Actual, you know, brief given to you. 
[00:09:00] Eugene Souleiman: course, yeah.
[00:09:02] Antony Whitaker: Okay. How did you solve it?
[00:09:04] Eugene Souleiman: Um, I, I thought I need to create this support within the hairstyle to have wet hair fall over.
[00:09:14] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:09:15] Eugene Souleiman: what I did was I got a, an Afro wig I literally cut out sections of it and built-up root volume hid it within wet hair. So the hair was actually full but it looked wet.
[00:09:32] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.
[00:09:34] Eugene Souleiman: I mean, you know, it's just, it's just, it just, it's a challenge, right?
[00:09:39] Eugene Souleiman: But it's like such a great challenge because I always feel, right, that you can't really grow, uh, as a person, as a creative, uh, within a trade, right? Unless there is some adversity, right? Or discomfort involved, in whatever you do.
[00:10:02] Antony Whitaker: Mm.
[00:10:05] Eugene Souleiman: I've had such a great training from Trevor, that it has really been the underpinning, right, in my career.
[00:10:15] Eugene Souleiman: Like, it really has. It's totally made me. And the training was really hard. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't a simple process. It was a lot of work. It was a lot of hours. There was a lot of practice, there was a lot of team making, there was a lot of scabby hands and, you know, it wasn't, you know, it didn't come easy.
[00:10:38] Antony Whitaker: Mm.
[00:10:39] Eugene Souleiman: And I think that to be good at anything, right, you really have to put in the effort, 
[00:10:47] Eugene Souleiman: in your craft or whatever you, whatever you want to be good at, you have to put in the work. And for me that never came easy, 
[00:10:56] Eugene Souleiman: Um, you have to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.
[00:11:02] Antony Whitaker: Um, let me ask you this. What do you think it is that makes someone a creative? Is it, is it a DNA thing? Is it the environment that they bring, that they're brought up in? Um, is it the what and the who you're exposed to? Like, where does that, where does that come from?
[00:11:22] Antony Whitaker: I know
[00:11:22] Eugene Souleiman: we go back to what we just said, right, is, uh, discomfort, right? And maybe being most of the people that I know um, that are creatives, have a very, uh, extrovert exterior, internally they're incredibly introspective and introvert, right, which means that they love people, they're inspired by people, they're inspired by their life, they're inspired by looking at things and experiencing things, but at the end of the day, they need to walk away and become alone 
[00:11:57] Eugene Souleiman: There needs to be silence for them to be able to process
[00:12:02] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:12:03] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. Now you talked, You, you talked earlier on about dyslexia as well and, and dyspraxia and about being working class, et cetera, or coming from a working-class background. And a lot of people would look upon all that as a, as a disadvantage in life, but you've sort of turned it around and turned it into an advantage.
[00:12:26] Eugene Souleiman: I've just,
[00:12:27] Antony Whitaker: talk to us about how conscious that was or is.
[00:12:30] Eugene Souleiman: Well, the funny thing is, right, this is really, it's really, it's really, um, an unusual thing because I think I can only speak about it from a very personal perspective. When I was really young, I did struggle a lot with reading and, you know, certain letters like P's and B's were not very decipherable, right, and I's and L's and, you know, and it, it, it was, it was a real struggle.
[00:13:01] Eugene Souleiman: So when I learned to read, I kind of taught myself how to read, I could probably understand, right, maybe the first three words of a sentence, right?
[00:13:11] Eugene Souleiman: And then there would be another word, right, that follows. I would have to think about, or imagine was a word,
[00:13:24] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:13:24] Eugene Souleiman: right? Uh, when I got to that point, I would think, does this make sense? So I would go back to the beginning of the sentence, and, and read out those words in my mind, and I thought, yeah, this does make sense, which meant that understood that part of it, but then I had to read the next sentence, So I was constantly, like, looking at information that I knew, that I understood, and used my imagination to create a word that I felt would make sense in that context, and then go back, and that's how I learned to read. I would read a sentence. Right, uh, go back to it, read part of the next sentence, imagine that word. back to the first sentence, and so, and then once I read a paragraph, does this all make sense? I would go back to the beginning of the paragraph and read. Right, so,
[00:14:29] Antony Whitaker: Must have taken a long time.
[00:14:31] Eugene Souleiman: yeah. Yeah, I probably. they say that you probably, if you're a dyslexic person, uh, or you're a dyspraxia person, that you probably think like three or four times more than a person that just thinks of something in a natural, in a natural sense.
[00:14:51] Antony Whitaker: Okay.
[00:14:52] Eugene Souleiman: my, my mind is really quite intense, right? And I really have to break things down and, and, and, and analyze them. And, and also I think, Learning to read in that way made me a visual person. It made me use my imagination, and I've always seen that as a strength because I've always felt that that's special to me. I'd never ever seen it as a bad thing.
[00:15:25] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:15:25] Eugene Souleiman: You know, in terms of convention, it's, it's not ideal. I've never wanted to do anything conventional in my life.
[00:15:34] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:15:34] Eugene Souleiman: feel that I'm kind of living my purpose in, in that, you know?
[00:15:39] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Um, one thing I want to ask you about and, and it sort of fits in with those things we've just been talking about is rules because a lot of hairdressers have, or not just a lot of hairdressers, a lot of people, period.
[00:15:54] Antony Whitaker: They make sense of their life by having very fixed rules and boundaries that they have to operate in. So you'll get hairdressers that are very, these are the only tools you can use. You cannot use this tool because that's naff or you have to use this tool because that's the cool thing to do. Um, and likewise, they'll have rules around different looks.
[00:16:17] Antony Whitaker: Do you know what I mean? Like, so if you said, oh, I want a mullet, they'd throw you out sort of thing. Now you're, you're not. about rules. You're the antithesis of that. There's, there's a complete freedom and flexibility about what you do, which I think is your strength that you don't actually have any rules that sort of keep you boxed in because that's how you continually seem to evolve.
[00:16:44] Antony Whitaker: So talk to us about that.
[00:16:46] Eugene Souleiman: I'm glad, right? That when I started my career, I had a very specific set of rules. I'm really glad about that. There's, there's nothing about that that, um, I don't appreciate because for me, um, They gave me a foundation and understanding and a rapport with Hair, right? They, they taught me that there, there is a process, uh, that can create an outcome, right?
[00:17:23] Eugene Souleiman: And I think to take that journey where you, you understand that, I, I think is very important because it helps you build a relationship up and an understanding of, uh, a medium, right? And a familiarity with that medium. But there is a saying, right, that familiarity breeds contempt, And I think once you've grown your wings, you need to learn to fly, right? And once you arrive at that point, you have to start stepping out of your boundaries and doing things that are against what you've been taught or different to what you've been taught. And I think over a period of time, I think that's, that's a natural process, right? Because I think what you, what you do is you begin to reeducate yourself. Well, for me, I did. And the only way I really kind of began to reeducate myself is I had to take myself out of the environment, right, that I was comfortable in, that was systematic. I had to take myself out of that environment, right? And. That happened quite naturally for me because I was seeing a model, right?
[00:18:53] Eugene Souleiman: I went out with a model and I got introduced to people in the fashion industry. You know, it all, it all happened very naturally. Like nothing in my career, I can honestly say, has ever been premeditated. Never, ever had a plan. I've always, um, worked with my environment, right? And a certain extent, I've made some pretty good friends.
[00:19:20] Eugene Souleiman: Damn good choices, right? And not good choices, but I've always been open and I think that's the thing. I think, you know, whenever you, you've learned something, you still need to be open to new or territory that's unexplored. Whether it's been explored before, but if it's not been explored for you on a personal level, you, you still have to go.
[00:19:45] Eugene Souleiman: down that process. And I think there are certain people in your life, right, that you meet and sometimes you can meet them for like, have a 10-minute conversation and gain so much from that experience. Right. You know, um, and for me there have been a few people in my life, right. That have really kind of changed my, my mindset or helped to change my mindset. You know, one of them was Trevor, 
[00:20:22] Antony Whitaker: Can I just jump in there and say, for people who don't know who you're talking about, when you say Trevor, it's Trevor Sorbie For anyone who's in any doubt, it's Trevor Sorbie So, uh, I know he was a major mentor of yours and you worked with him for what, 15 years or something, didn't you?
[00:20:36] Eugene Souleiman: and, and, and also when I left Trevor's, uh, there was Robert Lobetta and Kay Lobetta.
[00:20:44] Antony Whitaker: Right.
[00:20:46] Eugene Souleiman: Incredible. Like,
[00:20:47] Antony Whitaker: Hmm.
[00:20:48] Eugene Souleiman: complete, you know, just flipped my world upside down. Like Trevor did, you know, and, and, you know, John Galliano and Yohji Yamamoto and, uh, uh, and Junior Watanabe and Tom Brown and Karl Lagerfeld, right.
[00:21:03] Eugene Souleiman: Muccia Prada, like all of those people have, um, had a massive impact on me.
[00:21:10] Antony Whitaker: Let me ask you about those sorts of people. You have worked with everyone who's anyone, whether we're talking photographers, fashion designers, you know, artists, musicians, whatever sort of context. But you are very sort of humble about that. Um, but oftentimes in our industry or in any industry, success becomes someone's undoing.
[00:21:37] Antony Whitaker: So, um, I think you're Because they lose that sort of humility, but with you being humble and curious and vulnerable and prepared to make mistakes and stepping outside of your comfort zone and all that sort of stuff is all part of your sort of creative journey. It's, it's what makes you. But there's a certain amount of fear that comes with stepping outside of your comfort zone.
[00:22:04] Antony Whitaker: So talk to me about the importance of humility in the creative process.
[00:22:15] Eugene Souleiman: Well, I'll start off right by, saying, I think vulnerability is probably the biggest strength. that a person can have. anyone can have as a creative. Yeah.
[00:22:28] Eugene Souleiman: anyone as a creative or, just in, life, like to fall in love with someone and be vulnerable with that person, knowing that that person could break your heart at any point in time takes balls.
[00:22:42] Eugene Souleiman: You have to be brave, right? To be able to allow that to happen. Right? Most people that I do know that come across as very strong people are actually quite the opposite of that. Um, but I think, you know, I think vulnerability, Uh, plays a massive part in being a creative individual or a hairdresser.
[00:23:10] Eugene Souleiman: You, you know, your failures are your biggest, biggest successes because that's where you, that, that they're where your lessons, uh, your lessons are. You know, like you have to mess up to do, to, to really understand something on a deeper level. You have to feel it, right? So I think that's really important, it's important to realize, right?
[00:23:34] Eugene Souleiman: That failing at something is not necessarily a bad thing. It's actually a very good thing to fail,
[00:23:45] Eugene Souleiman: And it's important that you do make mistakes and you feel the, uh, you feel the implications of the mistakes that you do make, right? Because really stick with you, right? Experience, right, is, is, is the biggest teacher, right? One of the biggest teachers, right? And going into the unknown is one of the biggest teachers because you're just so in a place, right?
[00:24:08] Eugene Souleiman: You have to know it, you know, so I, I think that plays a massive part in it with creativity. I think creativity does have this, this bravery to it because you're not really sure, right? If it's going to work, are you right? And if you're not feeling any kind of, insecurity or adversity, you could probably safely say that you're not really going anywhere that hasn't been gone before or you're not doing something you haven't done before,
[00:24:46] Antony Whitaker: that's a great sound
[00:24:48] Eugene Souleiman: right? And you know, and it's also a little bit like, um, it's a, you can think of things in the most logical way and you can say, Oh, you know, like what hairdressers need is this. Right, there's a gap in the market and it's this, this product, right, it's this technology, right? Maybe it's, maybe it's not, right?
[00:25:19] Eugene Souleiman: And I think that's a problem. I think a lot of people in, in lots of jobs, right, are cocoons. Especially in jobs in like, you know, a lot of big companies and marketing, they're cocoons. They go to their job in the car, they're in the office for nine, maybe ten hours, on the phone, their lunch is Uber, they get back in the car, and they're To go home to have a shower, get back in another car to go to another restaurant, and then go home in a car. And they don't, 
[00:26:00] Eugene Souleiman: they have no experience of, of real life, and people, and real diversity. know, one of my, one of my favorite things is actually to get on the tube. I love getting on the tube, or a bus, and I love to walk. I love to see the world and feel part of the world that I'm in. And I think that's probably one of the things that has brought me to this point. It's been incredibly inspiring, inspiring to me that I'm, I'm actually connected with the real world and another world, which is completely, you know, a different place, but I managed to find a, an equilibrium with those two worlds creatively in my life. I do.
[00:26:46] Antony Whitaker: With what you were talking about before, that's, uh, I was going to talk about this later, but I think it's important to pick up on that, that, you know, every generation, there are different things that influence social change. And sometimes it's like. literally an explosion. You just referenced punk. That was, you know, for you in the late 70s, early 80s was this explosion of punk.
[00:27:10] Antony Whitaker: In the 60s, it was this explosion of pop culture. In the 70s, the beginning of the 70s, it was very much the sort of hippie era, etc. And every decade or so, there is You know, something every generation that sort of upends everything. What I want to ask you about is how would you describe the attitude or the energy today?
[00:27:36] Antony Whitaker: Whether it's of music or fashion or youth today that is driving change and how will that influence fashion the way the 60s did, the way the 70s did, the way the 80s did. What do you see happening? I mean, you're a dad. You've got young, uh, children.
[00:27:54] Eugene Souleiman: That's a really great question. Right. Because. Everyone I work with, right, uh, I don't work with anyone my age, like no one. And I'm told, right, that I'm very young for my age. I'm a very young spirit, right? Um, and I work with people that are probably like half my age, like literally. I could be their, their father, right? Literally, right? I don't, I don't work with any old people or people of my age group, right?
[00:28:32] Eugene Souleiman: Or from my time anymore, right? When I started out, because. I've always understood, that I'm constantly learning, And, and, and whenever I get into a pattern, I feel really uncomfortable with myself, And I have to step out of that, that place, I have to grow, And I think when I look at younger people now of particular age groups, right?
[00:29:02] Eugene Souleiman: I would say like 25, 21, 22 to like 30,  I, I kind of feel a little sad for them really, because I feel like that their life is, constantly being watched, they spend so much time on projecting and, looking for gratification, and looking for that next dopamine hit, which is like an Instagram post.
[00:29:39] Eugene Souleiman: have I got a thousand likes? Have I got this? Have I got that? I feel really sad for them because I think they're afraid, they're really afraid to mess up, right? And to mess up in public. When I was a kid, right, I was messing up, Jesus Christ, all the time, and learning from it, and [00:30:00] enjoying that experience, 
[00:30:01] Eugene Souleiman: I was really enjoying it. 
[00:30:03] Antony Whitaker: When you talk about that generation compared to your generation, when you say you don't work with anyone your age anymore, and, but you have a lot of assistants and stuff that are on your team as you're doing shows, et cetera. How do you, with those younger people, because of what you said, I think nailed it was really important about their, their life as always on show. They're always on social media. If they do something, if they mess up, it's on show forever, potentially. Do you know what I mean? So, so, you know, whereas you messed up, I messed up, but no one happens to know about it.
[00:30:40] Antony Whitaker: And that's cool. It's all forgotten about. We move on. What I was going to ask you was, how do you develop that sense of curiosity and creativity? In young people today, whether they're people on your team or whether you're Joe, the salon owner, and you've got young staff members, how do you develop that discipline, that curiosity, that creativity, that, that willingness to make mistakes and learn from them, et cetera.
[00:31:07] Eugene Souleiman: think for me, it's really, personal, authenticity. I think that plays a big part in it. I think, just as an example, right, I would, I would never ask an assistant to do something that I wouldn't do. Right. And I probably am the hardest working member on the team. Well, I am actually. So I think you, you have to lead, right?
[00:31:39] Eugene Souleiman: And the only way you can really lead, a team of people is if they're excited and they have a respect for you.
[00:31:48] Antony Whitaker: So you lead from the front and you make mistakes and you step outside your comfort zone and you show them what that looks and feels like.
[00:31:54] Eugene Souleiman: And I have no problem, right, with having an idea and saying to an assistant, I'm not really sure if it's going to work,
[00:32:01] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:32:02] Eugene Souleiman: I think we should try this, right? I think this is a lesson we can learn from. 
[00:32:07] Antony Whitaker: so earlier on you were talking about, uh, Trevor Sorbie and how he was, you know, a mentor for you. Um, how, how important is it? To have a mentor, you know, you talked about how you've got people on your team that are half your age and younger.
[00:32:24] Antony Whitaker: So people in their mid-twenties, et cetera, having you to look up to how important is that? How important was it for you? How important is it for them? Because today a lot of people want to jump the gun and they want to be, you know, at the front of the line without, I hate that expression. You got to pay your dues, but things don't happen overnight.
[00:32:44] Antony Whitaker: Do you know what I mean? You've got to have someone to show you the way. Mm,
[00:32:49] Eugene Souleiman: I mean, I mean, things definitely don't happen overnight, but I think going back to what you just said, talking about mentors, you know, yes, I do feel they're of the utmost importance, 
[00:33:04] Eugene Souleiman: I feel for me, I feel to be a good mentor, right. And to be a really helpful person and to pass on knowledge in whatever shape or form it comes in, you, you're the person that you are mentoring has to feel that what you're giving them is for their benefit, right?
[00:33:31] Eugene Souleiman: That you want to give them something because. You like them and you want them to do well. Every assistant I've ever had, right. That has, that has gone on and left to do stuff, Um, I've always been incredibly happy for them. I always, and I've had some really amazing assistants like, you know, there's like, you know, Duffy, Rudy Lewis, there's, there's like so many people, right. I've been part of my team or I've come from my family much as much like I've come from Trevor's family. I've, I've come from Trevor's stable, Trevor has been a massive mentor in my life. Huge. Right. So I think that's important. And I've always felt like that. Anything I've ever learned or any information I've ever been given from my mentor has come from a place of, of them wanting me to do well.
[00:34:34] Antony Whitaker: Okay. When, before we were talking about different people you'd worked with and so this is all part of the journey and there was some big brand names out there, you know, as designers, photographers, whatever. I'm, I'm always curious about how you feel. You know, this sort of fits in again with making mistakes and all that sort of stuff.
[00:34:56] Antony Whitaker: Do you ever, do you ever feel intimidated? You know, when you walk into the room for the first time and, you know, Miuccia Prada's there or John Galliano's there or, you know, you know, Karl Lagerfeld or whoever it was. Do you ever feel intimidated, or do you just feel, I'm here to do the job, they've chosen me to do the job, so I should,
[00:35:17] Eugene Souleiman: I don't feel any of those things actually. Uh, I, I feel nervously excited. Especially when I met John, um, because for me, right, I mean, I felt as if he'd done some really monumental things, right, that I've always, I've always loved and I've always looked at. And he, he has worked, he's worked many years for two of my favorite session hairdressers ever, right? One guy's a guy called Julien Dys Right. To me, he's a god.
[00:35:54] Antony Whitaker: he's brilliant, yeah, yeah,
[00:35:56] Eugene Souleiman: I mean, you know. And another guy called Orlando Pita He's done some incredible work. Right. Incredible. Uh, and inspiring. Inspiring work. So, when I met John, I was really nervous but excited to be presented with this challenge. Because they're like incredibly big boots to fill. Right. And I took the job on, I accepted the challenge and I was going to give it my all, literally just give it my all. Um, and, and nothing less. Right. That's that, they were, they were totally mine, my intentions. And I always think that whenever you go into something, I think you, you, goes back to humbleness again, doesn't it? Really? Because I think you can also go into a situation like that and feel, Oh my God, I could learn so much
[00:36:58] Antony Whitaker: mm,
[00:36:58] Eugene Souleiman: and maybe I need to learn so much. So being humble and being excited and nervous, I think, uh, three huge contributing factors, right.
[00:37:12] Eugene Souleiman: To really, you know, to really push you creatively. And I think I've always been on a quest to search for new ways of doing things and, and, and learn new things. So, so for me, it was, it was, it was this golden opportunity. I literally felt like, um, when I, when I, I thought I knew quite a lot of stuff about hair, right.
[00:37:35] Eugene Souleiman: Until I met John 
[00:37:36] Antony Whitaker: when you're talking about John, for anyone who doesn't know, we're talking about John Galliano. Now, obviously, when you, you know, when you work with him for the first time, he's, you're not going to learn about hair from the technique point of view. He's a fashion designer.
[00:37:51] Antony Whitaker: He's not going to say you need to do this or that or blah, blah, blah. But what you're going to learn from him. Is about developing an eye about a way to think about understanding a character. Am I on the right track with all that sort of stuff? Because that's the essence of it, isn't it? Like before you were doing hair and then all of a sudden, it's like, Oh, my God, 
[00:38:14] Eugene Souleiman: I was like, Oh my God, this is like completely changed my perspective on hair because now I need to go back to the drawing board and create new techniques. to be able to make these ideas a reality.
[00:38:31] Antony Whitaker: yeah. Do you see that in young people on your team that come to join your team that they're really excited because they know that they technically know what to do, uh, you know, in terms of working with hair and their hands and product and tools, etc. But there's a whole new world that they just haven't figured out yet.
[00:38:49] Antony Whitaker: Do you see that in people?
[00:38:51] Eugene Souleiman: Yeah, I totally do. Yeah, I definitely, definitely see
[00:38:54] Antony Whitaker: do they, and it's just working with you opening the door for them so that they go, Oh my God.
[00:39:00] Eugene Souleiman: know what? I just kind of, whenever I approach anyone or, you know, anyone new comes on my team, um, I kind of welcome them with open arms, right? I think a lot of people, when they meet me, think I'm going to be like this really hard, Um, you know, uh, Machiavellian taskmaster. I'm not,
[00:39:25] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:39:26] Eugene Souleiman: I'm not at all. Uh, so I think that's quite disarming for, for them, right?
[00:39:33] Eugene Souleiman: They're like, Oh my God, this is, this is not the situation that I thought it would be. So immediately they are, they're, they're in a different space and the space that they probably wouldn't have expected to be in. I think that really brings out the best in people. I think, you know. Having a sense of empathy and understanding, I think is, is, uh, you know, it's really very important.
[00:40:01] Eugene Souleiman: You know, like when I met John Galliano, he was like such a warm individual. And it was quite shocking to me that There was this hugely successful creative genius that was not a bastard, excuse my French.
[00:40:19] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. That's
[00:40:20] Eugene Souleiman: actually, really lovely, and I was like, Oh my God, I feel like I'm at home, And, and I felt valued as an individual. And I think, you know, I really value the people that work alongside me. Because I consider them like working alongside me. I don't consider them, you know, minions. Because it would never happen if they weren't there. Would never happen.
[00:40:49] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[00:40:51] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. So anyone who follows you on Instagram would have seen that you and Pablo Kuman, who used to be your first assistant, are in the process of opening something called The Wig.
[00:41:04] Antony Whitaker: Um, so tell us all about that. What is, what is the purpose or the goal of the, the, the wig academy?
[00:41:13] Eugene Souleiman: Well, the Wig Academy, right, is, I'm a contributor, Um, and I have to be really honest about this. This is, this is, uh, Pablo's idea was Pablo's concept. Um, and Pablo was an assistant of mine for a number of years and, uh, a, deeper friendship grew from our working relationship. So we have always, um, springboarded ideas and supported each other. You know, when, when he came up with the concept of the wig academy, I was like, Oh my God, that's just like a brilliant idea. It's like a great idea. And I was incredibly excited for him. I thought it was great, right? And, um, I've been using a lot of wigs that he, he has made with it. Company, uh, that he makes wigs for and designs wigs and, and creates different ways of making wigs. And I've always been very proud of him and interested in what he's been doing. Like, I always have shown a lot of interest in you know, his career, 
[00:42:23] Eugene Souleiman: As he's part of my, my family, right? He's like one of my children in, in a sense. Um, and he said, how do you feel about doing a, a course, right? And I, and I said, Oh my God, yeah, I'd love to. That'd be, that'd be great. You know, and that sparks off a conversation. It probably happened over a year ago. It was a very slow process.
[00:42:46] Eugene Souleiman: We've been working on this for a year, right, and the ideas have been building and they've grown and we've found a space which we think is a, white space, is a new space. In terms of, uh, education. And, you know, it's, it's been a very interesting process for me, which I'm really, really enjoying. And for me, it's all, it's all about that.
[00:43:14] Eugene Souleiman: I'm hoping it's going to be received in a, in a great way. I mean, it certainly feels like there's a hell of a lot of interest, which is, uh, great, you know, it's, it's, it's given me, um, it's given me a lot of optimism, 
[00:43:29] Eugene Souleiman: So, you know, for, for the both of us doing, doing this collaborative experience, right, with the Wig Academy has been a very enjoyable process, And, you know, I'm, I'm We're doing so many, so many other like additional things you know, like we're creating different head blocks with artists, different, uh, environments that we're going to shoot the videos in, um, you know, uh, competitions that, uh, we're going to create to create community, uh, to bring people together.
[00:44:09] Eugene Souleiman: into a new environment, like assist on shows and shoots and stuff like that. You know, there's lots and lots of things, you know, maybe collaborating with, um, uh, uh, product companies, creating new tools, you know, like really trying to push potential.
[00:44:26] Antony Whitaker: so it's the ethos of everything you've been talking about right through the last you know begin since we began this podcast It's like don't be afraid to change and evolve and go with it and invent stuff in a
[00:44:38] Eugene Souleiman: don't be, don't be afraid to be excited, you know,
[00:44:43] Antony Whitaker: so I saw you do something. I can't remember how long ago it was now.
[00:44:49] Antony Whitaker: Um, I'm going to say three, four years ago, uh, with, uh, hairdressing live with Paul Davey. Is it going to be that sort of thing where you have a live audience and people are working together? With you creating looks or is it is it going to be just a you know a step by step? Here's a series of modules and a series of lessons starting with the basics working through you know to Creative looks what's that that sort of you know
[00:45:18] Eugene Souleiman: you know, like
[00:45:19] Antony Whitaker: gonna be like
[00:45:19] Eugene Souleiman: everything for me has been part of a, an ongoing process, right. Uh, like what I did with Hairdressing Live, obviously I wanted to do something really quite different, you know, like I wanted to do it for an audience, uh, I, I wanted that audience to be, you know, people that I respected within the hairdressing industry, you know, like Trevor, Mark Hayes, Tim Hartle Anthony, you know, Nick Irwin, you, you know, like lots of people that were part of my community and, and history.
[00:45:58] Eugene Souleiman: You know, I wanted it to feel as if it wasn't a sellout, me just selling out to create, uh, extra revenue to do something, right? I never ever want to feel like that. So everything that intend on doing has to kind of be, uh, have a, have a, have a purpose, right? And a point of difference,
[00:46:29] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, is it mainly aimed at people who want to do session work? Or is it for salon use as well? It's just anything to do with wigs and
[00:46:38] Eugene Souleiman: I think,
[00:46:39] Antony Whitaker: creating more wider skillset. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:43] Eugene Souleiman: a wider skill set and, uh, and, and also kind of fine tuning sensibilities or taking visual sensibility in maybe a slightly different direction, changing the dynamics of education, you know, creating a different dialogue. I've always felt the best, the best teachers for me were people that were, have always been excited about their work and realize that they don't know enough.
[00:47:13] Eugene Souleiman: And they, they want to experience more things. And I think that's impetus, creative impetus. Right. And I think that's the thing that really gets people to push boundaries.
[00:47:25] Antony Whitaker: I, I remember, um, I'm not sure if we've spoken about it on this one or previous discussions where you told me about a careers advisor. Suggested to you a career in hairdressing and they said you can go and do an apprenticeship or you go to a school And you wanted to go to a school because you didn't want a job And so you found yourself at the I think it was the london college of fashion doing a doing a full time course In wig making and barbering and cosmetology, the whole lot, and I'm sort of reflecting on that.
[00:47:59] Antony Whitaker: And then I'm also reflecting on what you said about Trevor and how with Trevor, you had to work and you had to study and you had to really learn the fundamentals of stuff. So what I'm asking you is this course. Going to sort of be like that as well. Is it going to take, because, because so many hairdressers wouldn't have a clue what to do with a wig.
[00:48:22] Antony Whitaker: So, are you going to start right at the bottom of this is how you put a wig on. This is how you work with the hair. This is how you, you know,
[00:48:30] Eugene Souleiman: already done that, right? If you,
[00:48:32] Antony Whitaker: he's done all that. Right. Okay.
[00:48:34] Eugene Souleiman: done all of that, um, you know, detailing hairlines, uh, you know, products that you use, little, little, little tricks and things like that. Um,
[00:48:46] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:48:47] Eugene Souleiman: I am really kind of taking that further and turning it on its head.
[00:48:53] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. So you're doing the whole creative.
[00:48:56] Eugene Souleiman: literally, you know, I'm going to be looking at, um, construction of wigs and how to use the construction of a wig as a, as a, as a source of inspiration. You know, I'm going to be talking about how to use a wigs in a different way, not the traditional way.
[00:49:13] Antony Whitaker: yeah,
[00:49:14] Eugene Souleiman: Um, so I guess it would be a haute couture vision
[00:49:21] Antony Whitaker: okay,
[00:49:21] Eugene Souleiman: education. Right, it would be like very bespoke,
[00:49:27] Eugene Souleiman: and directional, and also coming from a different perspective. You know, as you know, I use wigs a lot in work that I do because, you know, I can't, I can't make a girl with blonde hair black. right, on a, on a shoot or on a show unless that's the look that they want to go for.
[00:49:52] Eugene Souleiman: Right. That's, that's a whole other, other area. So therefore I have to rely on a wig or a hairpiece like to be able to do that. So we use wigs, especially in hairdressers, a lot, even though you might not even know that we are using wigs, but we do. Um, and I would like to push that concept even further. 
[00:50:16] Antony Whitaker: before you and I started hairdressing in the, so this is in the sixties, I know that even then Sassoon's had a wig room. So in the sixties, you know, wigs were a very, a real thing that a girl had some wigs at home in a top drawer that she put on to go out as a fashion accessory. Of course, seventies, eighties, nineties, et cetera, that's just like died right off. And there's a whole generation of people that think of wigs as either being something for, you know, cancer patients, uh, which is a fantastic.
[00:50:50] Antony Whitaker: you know, use of wigs. It's been great. But I suppose what I'm asking you about is, do you, do you see that there could be sort of a return of a wig for being a more, uh, you know, fashion accessory? Do you see any return to that?
[00:51:06] Antony Whitaker: Is that sort of maybe some of the thinking behind the wig academy or not necessarily?
[00:51:10] Eugene Souleiman: I can't speak for Pablo, but I can speak for myself. Um,
[00:51:14] Antony Whitaker: of course.
[00:51:15] Eugene Souleiman: it's something that I would like to see returned to, for sure.
[00:51:19] Eugene Souleiman: And quite simply, the reason why I love Wigs, right, is it gives a person a sense of freedom. because it means they can change the way they look whenever they want to look
[00:51:29] Antony Whitaker: yeah,
[00:51:30] Eugene Souleiman: way, obviously. So it allows a person to show different, um, different sides of their personality. So yes, I, would like to see a return to wigs. I think wigs now probably are a little more on the natural side, 
[00:51:48] Eugene Souleiman: You know, I love the idea
[00:51:50] Antony Whitaker: Do you use,
[00:51:50] Eugene Souleiman: with a wig, right? You can do something that's probably taking you about four hours to do six hours and just be able to put it on.
[00:52:01] Antony Whitaker: yeah, especially for what you
[00:52:04] Eugene Souleiman: I'm do they right now, you know, we live such busy lives. Yeah.
[00:52:09] Antony Whitaker: um. Yeah. Okay. All right. Last time when we spoke. I said to you, what do you want to do next? And, uh, you said, and I've written it down. You said a Hollywood movie. So tick, you've done that because at the time we spoke, you hadn't done it. So you tick that box. Okay. You said a product line.
[00:52:28] Antony Whitaker: Um, as far as I know, you haven't ticked that box. You also said, you said an educational website for young hairdressers. Well, I'm going to say you've ticked that box, you know, with Pablo. Um, you said an agency for young hairdressers to have them on your books. Have you done anything along those lines yet?
[00:52:46] Eugene Souleiman: Yeah.
[00:52:48] Antony Whitaker: And then the last thing he said was to make the industry bigger, um, which was intriguing. So it's interesting. I mean, you know, as I said, it's only three years since we spoke, but you've ticked those things off the list uh, which is, which is fantastic.
[00:53:02] Eugene Souleiman: Um, where can people connect with you? on Instagram or other social media channels with
[00:53:08] Eugene Souleiman: Can we keep it to one channel? Instagram?
[00:53:10] Antony Whitaker: yep.
[00:53:10] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. So, so, so it's Eugene Souleiman on Instagram and also the wig academy, um, on Instagram and, uh, the wig
[00:53:22] Eugene Souleiman: It's something I'm very, I'm very excited about doing. Previously.
[00:53:25] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah, it, it's very exciting. I, I love all the stuff that you've got on the, um, on the Instagram page for that. 
[00:53:32] Antony Whitaker: So I'll put those links, uh, on our website, growmysalonbusiness.com and in the show notes for today's podcast. Now, if you're listening to this podcast with Eugene Souleiman and have enjoyed it, do me a favour, share it to Instagram stories, and don't forget to write us a review on Apple podcasts.
[00:53:47] Antony Whitaker: So to wrap up, Eugene, uh, thank you once again for being on this week's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast.
[00:53:55] Eugene Souleiman: An absolute pleasure, Antony. Thank you.