Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Rosee.
I'm so excited to have you here.
Rosee: Thank you so much for inviting me.
It's really, really nice of you.
Thank you.
Anke: Well, I always say that and I always mean it, right?
So let's get started with, let people know where you're based and, you know,
what's your business with the dogs?
Rosee: Okay, well, um, I'm British, as you can probably hear, but I
live at the moment in Austria.
were various reasons where, um, my work took me and, uh, for 13 years I've been
working as a canine behavior advisor.
Um, I'm really passionate, for example, about lead handling and helping our dogs
navigate our really complex human world.
Um, and I'm really, um, very focused on their emotions and so it was kind
of natural over a period of time the way the dog world is unfortunately
now with so many dogs in rescue and being abandoned and all the things
that happen to dogs, um, that I became more and more Specialized in dogs with
fear issues, uh, who are anxious, who are traumatized, or maybe come from
deprivation backgrounds where they haven't had the chance to meet anything at all.
Like for example, my greyhound rescued from the racetrack.
And so it was a kind of natural, um, progression that I started to, um, learn
more about and then did a specialist training, uh, with, uh, Julian A.
Smith.
on this issue, separation anxiety, because I had never met
it actually before my Greyhound.
And so if you haven't experienced it, you often don't know how extreme
this fear and this suffering is.
Yeah.
So that's how I came to look into this more closely and
Anke: I'm so glad you did.
I'm so glad you did because my first dog, you know, I Rescued him from the street,
like he was a puppy in like a band by himself in the street, you know, sort of
somehow just get to scraping by basically.
And he really suffered from it like massively.
And I didn't, you know, find anybody who could help at the time, you know, so it
wasn't, it wasn't fun for either of us.
So he didn't, I would basically then as a result drag the poor soul to all kinds of
places just to not leave him by himself, you know, which, so I think, So I, I,
I kind of know exactly what my dog did,
That was, you know, well, okay.
There's no doubt about it.
So how would you describe sort of, let's call 'em symptoms or how would
you recognize that, that a dog actually suffers from separation anxiety
and isn't just like bored or things like, oh, I don't want you to go.
Rosee: Yes, well, it's interesting actually that you say that it was so
obvious to you because the distress of these dogs is so obvious to everybody,
even if, um, if they're not really dog people, yeah, so like, so long as the,
um, um, Things that, the behaviors that we get to see are relatively overt
and the things that we think about automatically perhaps in relation,
separation related issues are, um, destruction, coming back to destruction.
You know, my greyhound, for example, did not yet know really what a door was
because he had never lived in a flat.
So his way of trying to get out was through the window, right?
So I came back and found it.
Curtains on the floor and things taken apart.
So that is easy to recognize.
And another thing that we easily recognize, I think, is the vocalizing
when dogs whine and bark and howl.
The difference between the normal vocalizing, because all dogs do that
of course, is that When the, um, caregiver, the primary caregiver
leaves the house, um, they will start doing these things with more, much
more intensity, and they don't stop.
That is really one of the signs of fear, because I would not, um, be stuck in
my, sitting with a load of Poisonous Vipers and just sort of lie down on the
sofa and say, Oh, well, never mind, you know, somebody will come sooner or later.
I'm just going to scream and I'm going to go on screaming until I get help.
So, so this is a vocalizing and a distraction and some dogs pee and poop
in the house, um, from the distress.
So that's relatively easy to recognize, and we should also be grateful to
neighbors, I think, who say, do you know your dog is in such distress?
Because otherwise we may not know.
Probably wouldn't know, yeah.
Now, really, really sad, I think, are that there are many other signs
that are not so obvious, right?
So dogs, Because they are seeking relief from fear, they could be just freezing,
for example, or they could be shaking and trembling and drooling or panting, yeah?
And this is different from just panting because they're too hot.
It's really a lot of pressure behind you.
And one really sad story, one of the things that we see in dogs who are
frightened and seeking relief is pacing.
And so, A trainer told me once that somebody in her dog school was there
for many years and for some reason, which had nothing to do with the
dog, they set up a camera and they discovered that the dog was pacing all
day, all the time they were at work.
They were out of the house for eight hours at a time, which
I personally think is insane.
I think everybody thinks mostly that that's much too long in one
go and he had developed compulsive behaviors to deal with this.
He would not, he hadn't, he'd been doing this for years, right?
So what I would definitely recommend is setting up a camera and really checking.
Don't assume just because you can't hear your dog barking that they're okay.
Wow,
Anke: I hadn't even thought of that, that, you know, because like mine
was literally, yes, there were, I had notes from the neighbours.
I had notes from the neighbours and I also noticed he usually had like a wet
belly so he would have Pete himself, you know, so and then that's that part like
it wouldn't stop like it wasn't that he then just go oh well I'll just settle
like no like this was and he wouldn't eat anything and so and people are all
give him a contour yeah right you know like he was way he would he would have
that once I'm back right so but not while I was away so that but I hadn't thought
of the things that you can't see that easily so that's so you really should.
set up a camera to sort of know what they're doing.
Always.
Yeah.
Rosee: It was actually John Bradshaw in 2000, 2011.
I don't know whether you know the book that I recommend to
everyone, uh, In Defense of Dogs.
Um, it's a marvelous book and he goes into the whole separation anxiety thing there.
He was pretty much the first person who really talked about this on a
wide scale and he talked about the importance of setting up a camera
and did a very big study actually.
And.
People were watching their dogs on the camera and they were just
gobsmacked to see how much they were suffering and they had no idea.
Because when they came back, the dog will often just behave totally normally.
So you can't say, oh well, when I come back my dog's totally normal.
Yes, because the situation has normalized, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It is extraordinary what dogs can suffer and we know now through the many studies
that are done on this that millions of dogs are suffering from this unknowing and
without any help and I think that's really sad so it's one of my big motivations.
Yeah,
Anke: well, so, so how does that happen?
Like, You know, because if I'm looking at the four that have been in my life,
you know, like the first one had it really dramatically, um, and the last
ones couldn't care less, like, you know, so it's like some have it, like,
what, what brings, is there something that brings it on or is it something,
are there situations where I think it's more likely if this or how,
like, what's, what's known about that?
Rosee: Well, that's a really, really good question.
Um, I think scientifically we, we don't entirely know the exact mechanisms
that kick it off, but we do know the context that they come up in.
Um, John Bradshaw again, because this impressed me so much at that
time, because it happened to be the time that I got my greyhound,
actually turned the question around.
He asked, um, Why don't all dogs have it?
Because we have selected dogs for thousands and thousands of years
to want to be with us and they are social creatures and they need, um,
companionship and staying alone is a skill that I personally believe should be
prioritized like toilet training, yeah?
Very gently though, much, in much smaller increments than people think.
So, um, Um, where we do see, see it arising, sometimes there seems to
be a genetic component because you sometimes see it in family lines.
Um, it can be learned from the mother dog, uh, when the puppies
are small, it can be learned.
Um, if she has a problem with being alone, she might, uh, teach
that in a way to her puppies.
Um,
of course.
Dogs learn by association.
So, something bad might happen.
They might have been alright for a while and sometimes something bad
happens like I don't know there's a huge thunderstorm or somebody breaks in.
Um, there was a situation where somebody broke in and hit the dog for
some reason and Those are, of course, you know, Where the dog learns that
when I'm alone, bad things can happen.
Um, we know also that life changes can kick it off.
A dog who was okay, but maybe when there's a house move, or a child grows up and
goes to college, or some kind of, or maybe the death of another dog in the
family, that can kind of kick it off.
Sometimes we find that there are health problems.
Um, which, and also, of course, getting, as dogs get older, they can
get clingier, um, because they are maybe losing their sight a little bit
or they're hearing a little bit and they're becoming more, they feel more
vulnerable and need more support.
So really separation anxiety or what we actually call separation
related behaviors covers a whole range of different things and, um
Anke: So, like,
I'm just sort of thinking back, it's like, oh yeah, Jesus, I tried, like, there are
recommendations, like, you know, there was stuff that I was being told to do,
you know, and literally none of that worked, you know, like the stuff that,
um, trainers and vets and people told me was like, oh, put them in a crate.
Well, that didn't go down well, right.
You know, like, just like, yeah, he basically took apart the crate and um,
and then my, oh well, you know, the house is too big, put him in a room.
Well, then that solved the neighbor's problem because the neighbor wouldn't
hear him banging against the front door anymore, but he destroyed the room door.
You know, like none of, like none of the Stop.
You know, and then, yeah, give him something to entertain himself.
Like that never made sense because I mean, you could kind of tell
it was like way too stressed to even pay attention to any of this.
So none of the stuff I was recommended to do had any, like, not the slightest, like
some, some stuff didn't make sense at all.
And others I tried and didn't believe the situation.
So what is it that somebody can do to help the dog?
Rosee: Yeah, you're right.
Um, actually, well, before we get onto what we can do, I think you described
so well the plight of the caregiver, you know, the dog owner, because I think we
should actually maybe, because you've described that so well, that you're
under enough pressure because you can see your dog is really suffering, right?
And then people are giving you advice, which doesn't help at all, right?
Um, And they're telling you a lot, a lot of the time that it's your fault.
For example, it's your fault because you spoil your dog or it's your fault.
I've
Anke: got that all the time.
Rosee: Yeah, because you let your dog sleep on the sofa or in the
bed and, um, because you let them go out the door in front of you.
One thing I think is really sad is that, um, It's your fault because you are
saying goodbye to your dog before you leave and greeting when you come back.
So, you know, ignore your dog.
Your dog is desperate and, and you know instinctively as a dog parent
that, That you don't want to ignore your dog on top of that, right?
And we know through studies that, um, saying goodbye and saying hello to
dogs actually helps them because these rituals, because they have social rituals
and Is it interesting with the food?
Because this is why I really, really, really plea, make a plea to get a
professional, because there's so much online, which is really incorrect.
And give them a car or give them something to chew.
Sounds as though you're helping the dog.
And it's in a lot of the big dog books, unfortunately.
But the problem with this is, That there is, um, a thought mistake in this.
Um, people think they're kind of trying to counter condition it, that the dog
will feel better about them leaving, but it's the wrong order, right?
It, it maybe help the dog if when you leave, they get something then,
but you can't do it that way around.
But if you give them something beforehand, like a call.
And then leave.
You're pairing food with something very scary.
And we know that it's not going to take very long because the dog is,
before the dog is afraid of the Kong.
And I have had a client, um,
couldn't feed her dog.
After a few days, because the dog was so terrified when she turned up with
food, and even if you are distracting the dog for a while, the dog is eating
it, which most dogs who are very afraid don't, but if they do, you're only
distracting them, you're not teaching them a new skill, and when the food is
finished, Finished, they're going to wake up to the fact that they're alone
suddenly, to a full blown panic attack.
And that is why they then learn very cleverly that they should
be very wary of the food.
And the terrible thing is that they become really vigilant.
They're watching your every single movement, yeah?
Another thing that people are told to do, yeah, is put them in
a crate and let them cry it out.
And we know We know, um, from research, as though we didn't know
it instinctively, but also with children who were left on their own
to cry, that, um, that is extremely traumatizing if that happens enough.
And it can even cause neurological damage because the distress is,
you know, we're hardwired to stay with the group, aren't we?
And so we need to, we definitely need to give our dogs a lot of security.
Putting them in a crate is just an extra layer of isolation.
And sadly, um, people think that crates are helpful in this context, but dogs
are not den animals, and so this is really not a, not a good thing at all.
So instead of doing all these things, another thing that people
do, which I think is so sad, and that is they practice, they're
told to do this by trying to, practicing so called departure cues.
Oh, so that means, uh, putting on your jacket, like, Oh,
Anke: yeah, I've been told that too, you know, try that out.
So he kind of gets to disassociate like, oh, grabbing the bag or grabbing
the key doesn't always mean that didn't make sense to me either.
Because I'm like, now he's a poor thing and doesn't know
at all what's going on, right?
Now he's gonna get kind of worried about anything that's unknown sort of thing.
Rosee: Yeah.
I love the way you describe this because this is perfect.
I did this once.
I read it in a book by a very famous trainer and I picked my keys and
my dog, Stevie, my greyhound just freaked out and I thought well that
can't be a good idea because really you're just triggering the fear.
They're not afraid of the keys, they're afraid of you leaving, so you're
just triggering the fear over and over and over and over and over again
without solving the dog's problem.
So, that's a bit of a long winded way of getting back to your actual
question is what do we do then, instead?
Um, and the only One way we know from practice and from study to help a
dog recover from this is by a very carefully led process of desensitization.
It is really analog to the way I understand in human psychology.
Humans are helped with fears and phobias.
It's called, it's also known as gradual exposure therapy.
And I think what people Often are really surprised about is how tiny
the steps we do with the, we're not doing one minute and then
five minutes and then ten minutes.
This is dog led, we have to, we have to make sure that we're only practicing
what the dog feels comfortable with because we don't want to be
practicing fear or anxiety, right.
And people will come sometimes, they will say to me, my dog can do
5 minutes or 10 minutes, half an hour outside the door, no problem.
And when I do an assessment with them, and I'm watching the dog, and
I record it so they can watch it with me afterwards, we will often see,
usually, that the dog is triggered.
It's already at the door, so maybe when they touch the door handle,
or the sound of the door handle.
Some dogs are even triggered when people stand up, right?
Because they've learned that their only source of information
is to track people's movements.
And so we do, we have a little signal.
A verbal and hand signal.
I like to use this as a safe, so called safe signal, so that we can
make it predictable for the dog.
It's a way of saying to them, I'm going to stand up now.
I'm going to move.
And whenever I give this signal, um, it's a promise to never do
anything that the dog is afraid of.
So they learn when I do this, it's going to be very, very short.
Absences.
And we're thinking about absences, but actually the dog
is thinking about us coming back.
So in, in a way, I like to turn it around, so we're gonna, we practice
loads and loads of times just coming back before the dog's even
getting worried about us leaving.
The good news is that this is very effective.
It is really, really very effective.
It takes some dedication and time, it does, but We can help many, many that.
Anke: I think the, the, the tiny steps, I mean, that's something that, that I got
to understand in a, like in a different context, was basically teaching one of
the dogs, like it was to stay, right?
And I followed some instructions and it was like really frustrating for everyone.
And, um, and then later I found like a different way,
it was explained differently.
And I got to see that I had really like lumped about 10 steps into one.
Thinking.
See, the thing is, I didn't go in with this idea of, oh, let me just give
my dog a real horrible time here, you know, by just making him jump ahead.
like 10 steps.
I thought I was taking tiny steps.
I think that's probably often the problem comes.
You think you're taking small steps, but for the dog it's not.
Rosee: No, it isn't.
And, um, yeah, I said it before, but I can't really say it.
Say that this is a serious welfare issue and I really, really make a plea for
people getting a professional to show them how to do it because after four,
eight, eight weeks, depending on, you know, the severity of the case, you'll
be able to then continue the work on your own, but, or with, you know, perhaps
slightly less, um, support if you want to, but definitely learn how to do it.
Anke: That makes, I mean, I think it also like takes a lot of pressure off
because, you know, you saying, hey, look, it's almost like, like, it feels like
if I go, if I listen to this, you know, through the lens of, okay, I was that
dog parent with the dog, you know, where you kind of feel guilty already, right?
So now you kind of have the sense, well, you should know how to fix it, right?
So now you coming in saying, well, look, this is actually more complex than that.
than it is, than it seems, so you're not kind of failing your dog by hitting a
wall, to say like, no, do get professional help, because it can be learned,
but probably not from a book, right?
Rosee: Exactly that, really.
There are not that many.
There's several hundred professionals specialised in this in the world.
And we all work online because it is the one area of dog work which
actually functions better online.
then because it is based on observation.
You have to be able to, um, my, my clients learn to be the experts
in their dog's body language.
They're learning to read the tiniest, tiniest signs of anxiety or when the
dog's even just beginning to think, oh, I don't know, I don't really like that.
That can be kind of, you know, Just blink, blinking more, or showing a bit of white
in the eye, what we call whale eye, or lip licking, or very subtle signs where
a dog might start to scratch a bit, um, or even sort of groom a bit, sort of self
soothing behaviors, things like that.
And once they know what, what the repertoire is that the dog, uh, uses,
then they are very well equipped to be able to keep the dog always under
threshold, because that's what it's about.
We don't want to Tip the dog into another fear episode.
Because we know more now about how this works neurologically.
Um, we don't want to be We're trying to build new pathways, you know.
The default mode of the dog is, um, if you go away, it's, I'm terrified.
But we can overlay this with, with new pathways.
But it means always, we want to Overlay it with pathways where the
dog's saying, Oh, I could do this.
I can do this.
That's fine by me that I can do this.
Right.
And so it's a bit counterintuitive at first, but we have to practice what the
dog can do and not what the dog can't do.
Anke: I mean, it does.
It does.
It does make sense.
Right.
So it's like, yeah, you get more of what you practice.
Right.
So you want to.
Yeah, that makes it makes all the sense in the world.
Rosee: So, I love that.
I'm going to quote you to my lines.
You get more of what you practice.
I love that.
I'm going to write that down right now.
Anke: I've seen this.
I've seen this to be honest.
I got to see this in Australia when I was at the golf driving range
and I saw these Japanese people like practicing like crazy, but
like some really wonky like swing.
And I'm like, Ooh, like, you know, like it doesn't matter how diligent you are
if you're practicing the wrong thing.
Right.
Rosee: True.
Sadly.
And that is also sad because people come to me sometimes, they've spent a
lot of money and a lot of dedication.
Because really, people with separation anxiety, dogs that I know, they're
so aware of the distress of their dog and they are so dedicated, right?
And then it's really sad if they have been misled by wrong advice.
I mean, that's,
Anke: that's probably, I think, one of the biggest problems with this
is because yeah, I remember clearly everybody has advice for you, you
know, to really differentiate which advice to listen to and which, which
didn't like, is there, is there one thing you think like, well, out of all
the things like this really don't do?
Rosee: Yeah, well, I, Um, definitely don't ever let your dog cry out
because they will not learn to feel safe by feeling unsafe.
That is just a complete no no.
That's really, don't ever trick your dog.
Some people, for example, and I know very wonderful, wonderful dog
carers who have thought they can help their dog by leaving secretly.
If their dog, they, they hope that if the dog doesn't see them leave,
it will help them cope better.
But what the dog learns very fast is they've been tricked and
they need to be very vigilant.
Uh, in that way, the dog becomes hypervigilant to their every
movement in case their person is going to disappear on them.
Yeah.
Anke: I mean, if you look at it, like, because the problem is all
these approaches, you know, if the assumption they're based on were
true, it would make a lot of sense.
But if the assumption underneath is wrong, then you can really
cause a lot of harm there.
Rosee: Exactly, but we all do these things, um, with the best interest
at heart, and sometimes they come from, sadly, from, you know, Trainers
who are probably quite good at other, in other areas, but they
haven't had a specialist training.
And all these things used to be advised in the old, educated, before
there was any real knowledge about it.
That, um, yes, don't expect that putting your dog in a crate is going to
teach them any kind of skills at all.
Um, there is a lot of, uh, great movements you probably know too.
Try and educate people that this is not a way to help your dog.
In a way, crates prevent your dog learning how to live in your home, you know,
that they should feel safe everywhere.
That makes
Anke: sense.
Because I think at the end of the problem with this whole topic of, like, if you
have a dog with separation anxiety, the, like, Your dog suffers and you feel
like a prisoner in your house, right?
So, and I think knowing that there is a way to actually address what's
really going on so you can get to a point where, you know, your dog doesn't
mind staying alone and you can go out without, you know, Feeling guilty or
feeling horrible, you know, I think that is just such a such a game changer.
So if people want help and like, you know, take it to your
advice and do want professional help, where can they find yours?
Rosee: Okay, well, um, they, I have a website called Separation Anxiety
Dog Training, which is quite a long, long name, but that's very clear.
Yeah, I like to put on, you know, what's on the tin is in the
tin, um, so they can contact me.
me there and make an appointment.
We can have a chat about things, see if we're good fit.
And then I have various different programs.
Um, and, um, I also speak German.
So these online programs, uh, I can do, I do all over the world.
I have clients all over the world.
Um, and I speak English as you can hear, but I also speak German.
So, um, I have a German website as well called gooddogpractice.
eu, uh, if you don't feel you can cope with the English website.
But however you get to me through the, through my calendar, we can,
we can definitely help your dog.
Don't leave it any longer than you, you need to.
Some people think, um, This is another one that says, sort of, one of these
myths, I don't need to teach my dog to stay on their own because I work
from home and I'm never out anyway.
This is not a good idea because this fear will deepen neurologically,
in the background if you like.
I think every dog should have this skill.
They don't have to be left alone for hours and hours and hours,
but they should feel safe.
We should enable them to feel safe.
I think it's a really important skill.
And I've noticed that If they do have this skill, it often gives them more
confidence in other areas of their life.
Makes sense, yeah.
Anke: Actually, it's funny because I always thought me working from home
actually made things harder for my dog because there was no predictability.
Rosee: Yes,
Anke: yeah.
You know, because he never knew, you know, he was like never alone.
I was there 24 7 like for days at a time, you know, or I would take him wherever I
went and then all of a sudden like, you know, where I think I always thought like
if I worked in an office and he did, mine did get better when I started to go to
regular yoga classes and I remember the first time I saw him when I grabbed that
yoga mat, I saw him jump on the couch.
Rosee: Yeah, yeah.
That's
Anke: where I knew.
So there was like, oh, we're turning a corner here because he
recognized, okay, she takes that math.
That means after X amount of time, she'll be back.
You know, and I'm thinking normally by working at home, from home and having
like no real rhythm in a sense, you know, regular rhythm, I always thought it made
it harder for him rather than better.
Rosee: No, absolutely.
And we can, we can teach dogs.
We just need to do it at their own pace.
Otherwise we're just making it worse.
And some dogs, like, like it sounds like your dog, um, Yeah, that's,
that's another reason actually.
We talked about reasons that, um, dogs have it.
Sometimes they just haven't learned it and then they learn it quite
quickly, you know, because, um, dogs like that tend to, we tend to say
they have, um, isolation, distress.
It's just that they have not yet used to being on a, but there are dogs and
my, my, Stevie, my greyhound was one of these who had actual separation anxiety,
which is strictly speaking the fear, It's also, it does exist in humans as
well and children and the fear of being separated from a particular person.
That is a bit tougher still when it comes to being a prisoner in your
own home because you can't even, I couldn't even leave him with people
that he knew, although he loved people.
But I was the first person who'd ever taken care of him.
You know, he'd come from the racetrack.
We don't know exactly how he had been kept before he came to the rescue,
but sometimes they're kept in cages or in, you know, um, kennels and stuff.
They don't have much human interaction, so it's Very natural when a rescue comes
to you that they're going to need time to feel secure and build up their bond first.
Yeah.
So a lot of people sort of, I said, my, my rescue dog, if it has
separation anxiety, I said, well, how long have they been with you?
Three days.
Well, yeah, you know, uh, that takes a little bit of time.
But one thing that if you do have a dog, like, like Stevie, who,
uh, couldn't, It only was, you know, very fixed, fixated on me.
Um, there is something you can do before you even start on the desensitizing
the door and doing departures.
And that is something we call spreading the love.
And that is, um, very gradually building up positive associations with being with
another person or being in a relationship.
And later, maybe two or three different people, but you have to do this so
slowly because we always have to remember this is a safety issue.
The dog has to feel safe, you know?
Yeah,
Anke: I love that.
A safety issue.
That's just Yeah, that's just beautiful.
I'll just wrap it up.
So, because we could kind of talk forever and I'll definitely want you back.
Rosee: So,
Anke: yeah, well, thank you so much.
I think we've told people where to go and like really the core
message, like, it's not your fault.
There is help available.
Go get it.
Link in the comments below, link in the, you know, in the show notes.
And if you watch the video, it's just above or below.
So do get in touch and, you know, make sure you and your dog have a better time.
Rosee: Definitely.
Thank you so much, Anke.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.