WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.788 --> 00:00:27.788 Anke: Hello and welcome, Rosee. 00:00:28.138 --> 00:00:29.878 I'm so excited to have you here. 00:00:31.818 --> 00:00:33.658 Rosee: Thank you so much for inviting me. 00:00:33.668 --> 00:00:35.118 It's really, really nice of you. 00:00:35.118 --> 00:00:35.798 Thank you. 00:00:36.748 --> 00:00:39.778 Anke: Well, I always say that and I always mean it, right? 00:00:39.778 --> 00:00:45.288 So let's get started with, let people know where you're based and, you know, 00:00:45.618 --> 00:00:47.038 what's your business with the dogs? 00:00:48.038 --> 00:00:52.458 Rosee: Okay, well, um, I'm British, as you can probably hear, but I 00:00:52.468 --> 00:00:54.328 live at the moment in Austria. 00:00:54.908 --> 00:01:00.728 were various reasons where, um, my work took me and, uh, for 13 years I've been 00:01:00.728 --> 00:01:03.458 working as a canine behavior advisor. 00:01:04.358 --> 00:01:11.408 Um, I'm really passionate, for example, about lead handling and helping our dogs 00:01:11.408 --> 00:01:14.608 navigate our really complex human world. 00:01:15.218 --> 00:01:22.658 Um, and I'm really, um, very focused on their emotions and so it was kind 00:01:22.658 --> 00:01:28.268 of natural over a period of time the way the dog world is unfortunately 00:01:28.268 --> 00:01:33.478 now with so many dogs in rescue and being abandoned and all the things 00:01:33.488 --> 00:01:39.348 that happen to dogs, um, that I became more and more Specialized in dogs with 00:01:39.358 --> 00:01:44.438 fear issues, uh, who are anxious, who are traumatized, or maybe come from 00:01:44.438 --> 00:01:49.538 deprivation backgrounds where they haven't had the chance to meet anything at all. 00:01:49.718 --> 00:01:53.808 Like for example, my greyhound rescued from the racetrack. 00:01:54.128 --> 00:02:02.598 And so it was a kind of natural, um, progression that I started to, um, learn 00:02:02.598 --> 00:02:07.068 more about and then did a specialist training, uh, with, uh, Julian A. 00:02:07.078 --> 00:02:07.588 Smith. 00:02:08.163 --> 00:02:11.523 on this issue, separation anxiety, because I had never met 00:02:11.783 --> 00:02:13.033 it actually before my Greyhound. 00:02:13.533 --> 00:02:20.293 And so if you haven't experienced it, you often don't know how extreme 00:02:20.423 --> 00:02:22.353 this fear and this suffering is. 00:02:22.353 --> 00:02:22.613 Yeah. 00:02:22.613 --> 00:02:26.813 So that's how I came to look into this more closely and 00:02:27.503 --> 00:02:28.933 Anke: I'm so glad you did. 00:02:29.053 --> 00:02:34.693 I'm so glad you did because my first dog, you know, I Rescued him from the street, 00:02:34.713 --> 00:02:38.483 like he was a puppy in like a band by himself in the street, you know, sort of 00:02:38.493 --> 00:02:40.913 somehow just get to scraping by basically. 00:02:41.243 --> 00:02:44.193 And he really suffered from it like massively. 00:02:44.483 --> 00:02:50.213 And I didn't, you know, find anybody who could help at the time, you know, so it 00:02:50.223 --> 00:02:52.343 wasn't, it wasn't fun for either of us. 00:02:52.353 --> 00:02:57.043 So he didn't, I would basically then as a result drag the poor soul to all kinds of 00:02:57.043 --> 00:03:04.933 places just to not leave him by himself, you know, which, so I think, So I, I, 00:03:04.933 --> 00:03:06.853 I kind of know exactly what my dog did, 00:03:07.603 --> 00:03:09.193 That was, you know, well, okay. 00:03:09.193 --> 00:03:10.393 There's no doubt about it. 00:03:10.393 --> 00:03:14.983 So how would you describe sort of, let's call 'em symptoms or how would 00:03:14.983 --> 00:03:19.783 you recognize that, that a dog actually suffers from separation anxiety 00:03:19.783 --> 00:03:23.018 and isn't just like bored or things like, oh, I don't want you to go. 00:03:23.848 --> 00:03:28.328 Rosee: Yes, well, it's interesting actually that you say that it was so 00:03:28.338 --> 00:03:33.968 obvious to you because the distress of these dogs is so obvious to everybody, 00:03:33.978 --> 00:03:40.898 even if, um, if they're not really dog people, yeah, so like, so long as the, 00:03:40.958 --> 00:03:45.938 um, um, Things that, the behaviors that we get to see are relatively overt 00:03:45.968 --> 00:03:51.198 and the things that we think about automatically perhaps in relation, 00:03:51.388 --> 00:03:59.008 separation related issues are, um, destruction, coming back to destruction. 00:03:59.128 --> 00:04:02.988 You know, my greyhound, for example, did not yet know really what a door was 00:04:03.018 --> 00:04:06.088 because he had never lived in a flat. 00:04:06.428 --> 00:04:09.638 So his way of trying to get out was through the window, right? 00:04:09.648 --> 00:04:10.768 So I came back and found it. 00:04:11.523 --> 00:04:15.153 Curtains on the floor and things taken apart. 00:04:15.153 --> 00:04:17.273 So that is easy to recognize. 00:04:17.323 --> 00:04:21.523 And another thing that we easily recognize, I think, is the vocalizing 00:04:21.533 --> 00:04:26.063 when dogs whine and bark and howl. 00:04:27.423 --> 00:04:32.083 The difference between the normal vocalizing, because all dogs do that 00:04:32.093 --> 00:04:37.028 of course, is that When the, um, caregiver, the primary caregiver 00:04:37.028 --> 00:04:43.068 leaves the house, um, they will start doing these things with more, much 00:04:43.068 --> 00:04:45.748 more intensity, and they don't stop. 00:04:45.978 --> 00:04:51.178 That is really one of the signs of fear, because I would not, um, be stuck in 00:04:51.328 --> 00:04:55.543 my, sitting with a load of Poisonous Vipers and just sort of lie down on the 00:04:55.543 --> 00:04:59.023 sofa and say, Oh, well, never mind, you know, somebody will come sooner or later. 00:04:59.043 --> 00:05:03.663 I'm just going to scream and I'm going to go on screaming until I get help. 00:05:03.993 --> 00:05:08.703 So, so this is a vocalizing and a distraction and some dogs pee and poop 00:05:08.723 --> 00:05:11.603 in the house, um, from the distress. 00:05:11.828 --> 00:05:15.838 So that's relatively easy to recognize, and we should also be grateful to 00:05:16.098 --> 00:05:20.648 neighbors, I think, who say, do you know your dog is in such distress? 00:05:20.678 --> 00:05:22.078 Because otherwise we may not know. 00:05:22.248 --> 00:05:23.078 Probably wouldn't know, yeah. 00:05:23.528 --> 00:05:28.338 Now, really, really sad, I think, are that there are many other signs 00:05:28.728 --> 00:05:30.768 that are not so obvious, right? 00:05:30.768 --> 00:05:35.733 So dogs, Because they are seeking relief from fear, they could be just freezing, 00:05:35.753 --> 00:05:43.273 for example, or they could be shaking and trembling and drooling or panting, yeah? 00:05:43.793 --> 00:05:46.763 And this is different from just panting because they're too hot. 00:05:46.783 --> 00:05:48.833 It's really a lot of pressure behind you. 00:05:50.643 --> 00:05:55.363 And one really sad story, one of the things that we see in dogs who are 00:05:55.643 --> 00:05:58.133 frightened and seeking relief is pacing. 00:05:58.953 --> 00:06:04.723 And so, A trainer told me once that somebody in her dog school was there 00:06:04.723 --> 00:06:07.993 for many years and for some reason, which had nothing to do with the 00:06:07.993 --> 00:06:13.203 dog, they set up a camera and they discovered that the dog was pacing all 00:06:13.203 --> 00:06:16.163 day, all the time they were at work. 00:06:16.733 --> 00:06:18.933 They were out of the house for eight hours at a time, which 00:06:18.973 --> 00:06:20.063 I personally think is insane. 00:06:20.433 --> 00:06:24.173 I think everybody thinks mostly that that's much too long in one 00:06:24.173 --> 00:06:29.073 go and he had developed compulsive behaviors to deal with this. 00:06:29.073 --> 00:06:32.873 He would not, he hadn't, he'd been doing this for years, right? 00:06:32.873 --> 00:06:37.943 So what I would definitely recommend is setting up a camera and really checking. 00:06:38.463 --> 00:06:43.953 Don't assume just because you can't hear your dog barking that they're okay. 00:06:43.954 --> 00:06:46.383 Wow, 00:06:47.523 --> 00:06:50.173 Anke: I hadn't even thought of that, that, you know, because like mine 00:06:50.173 --> 00:06:54.463 was literally, yes, there were, I had notes from the neighbours. 00:06:54.543 --> 00:06:59.783 I had notes from the neighbours and I also noticed he usually had like a wet 00:06:59.813 --> 00:07:06.233 belly so he would have Pete himself, you know, so and then that's that part like 00:07:06.233 --> 00:07:09.893 it wouldn't stop like it wasn't that he then just go oh well I'll just settle 00:07:09.893 --> 00:07:14.483 like no like this was and he wouldn't eat anything and so and people are all 00:07:14.483 --> 00:07:18.523 give him a contour yeah right you know like he was way he would he would have 00:07:18.543 --> 00:07:24.343 that once I'm back right so but not while I was away so that but I hadn't thought 00:07:24.343 --> 00:07:29.943 of the things that you can't see that easily so that's so you really should. 00:07:30.573 --> 00:07:33.083 set up a camera to sort of know what they're doing. 00:07:33.853 --> 00:07:34.153 Always. 00:07:34.543 --> 00:07:34.883 Yeah. 00:07:35.373 --> 00:07:38.803 Rosee: It was actually John Bradshaw in 2000, 2011. 00:07:39.473 --> 00:07:41.953 I don't know whether you know the book that I recommend to 00:07:41.953 --> 00:07:44.543 everyone, uh, In Defense of Dogs. 00:07:44.893 --> 00:07:49.423 Um, it's a marvelous book and he goes into the whole separation anxiety thing there. 00:07:49.433 --> 00:07:53.243 He was pretty much the first person who really talked about this on a 00:07:53.243 --> 00:07:57.033 wide scale and he talked about the importance of setting up a camera 00:07:57.373 --> 00:07:58.993 and did a very big study actually. 00:07:59.033 --> 00:07:59.413 And. 00:07:59.843 --> 00:08:02.673 People were watching their dogs on the camera and they were just 00:08:02.693 --> 00:08:06.123 gobsmacked to see how much they were suffering and they had no idea. 00:08:06.433 --> 00:08:10.993 Because when they came back, the dog will often just behave totally normally. 00:08:11.243 --> 00:08:15.283 So you can't say, oh well, when I come back my dog's totally normal. 00:08:15.283 --> 00:08:18.463 Yes, because the situation has normalized, right? 00:08:18.493 --> 00:08:19.643 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:20.003 --> 00:08:25.543 It is extraordinary what dogs can suffer and we know now through the many studies 00:08:25.543 --> 00:08:30.863 that are done on this that millions of dogs are suffering from this unknowing and 00:08:30.863 --> 00:08:35.753 without any help and I think that's really sad so it's one of my big motivations. 00:08:35.793 --> 00:08:36.253 Yeah, 00:08:36.403 --> 00:08:39.813 Anke: well, so, so how does that happen? 00:08:39.814 --> 00:08:44.413 Like, You know, because if I'm looking at the four that have been in my life, 00:08:44.743 --> 00:08:49.073 you know, like the first one had it really dramatically, um, and the last 00:08:49.073 --> 00:08:52.723 ones couldn't care less, like, you know, so it's like some have it, like, 00:08:52.733 --> 00:08:57.053 what, what brings, is there something that brings it on or is it something, 00:08:57.243 --> 00:09:01.033 are there situations where I think it's more likely if this or how, 00:09:01.583 --> 00:09:03.533 like, what's, what's known about that? 00:09:04.438 --> 00:09:06.688 Rosee: Well, that's a really, really good question. 00:09:06.738 --> 00:09:12.518 Um, I think scientifically we, we don't entirely know the exact mechanisms 00:09:12.518 --> 00:09:16.108 that kick it off, but we do know the context that they come up in. 00:09:16.618 --> 00:09:20.168 Um, John Bradshaw again, because this impressed me so much at that 00:09:20.168 --> 00:09:23.728 time, because it happened to be the time that I got my greyhound, 00:09:24.728 --> 00:09:26.218 actually turned the question around. 00:09:26.228 --> 00:09:29.408 He asked, um, Why don't all dogs have it? 00:09:29.813 --> 00:09:34.613 Because we have selected dogs for thousands and thousands of years 00:09:34.613 --> 00:09:39.473 to want to be with us and they are social creatures and they need, um, 00:09:40.833 --> 00:09:45.543 companionship and staying alone is a skill that I personally believe should be 00:09:45.543 --> 00:09:48.283 prioritized like toilet training, yeah? 00:09:48.693 --> 00:09:52.283 Very gently though, much, in much smaller increments than people think. 00:09:52.713 --> 00:09:58.673 So, um, Um, where we do see, see it arising, sometimes there seems to 00:09:58.683 --> 00:10:03.893 be a genetic component because you sometimes see it in family lines. 00:10:04.663 --> 00:10:11.543 Um, it can be learned from the mother dog, uh, when the puppies 00:10:11.853 --> 00:10:13.483 are small, it can be learned. 00:10:13.963 --> 00:10:18.383 Um, if she has a problem with being alone, she might, uh, teach 00:10:18.383 --> 00:10:20.833 that in a way to her puppies. 00:10:21.253 --> 00:10:22.153 Um, 00:10:24.423 --> 00:10:25.033 of course. 00:10:25.603 --> 00:10:27.313 Dogs learn by association. 00:10:27.413 --> 00:10:30.343 So, something bad might happen. 00:10:31.193 --> 00:10:35.483 They might have been alright for a while and sometimes something bad 00:10:35.483 --> 00:10:39.613 happens like I don't know there's a huge thunderstorm or somebody breaks in. 00:10:39.673 --> 00:10:43.543 Um, there was a situation where somebody broke in and hit the dog for 00:10:43.543 --> 00:10:49.383 some reason and Those are, of course, you know, Where the dog learns that 00:10:49.383 --> 00:10:51.433 when I'm alone, bad things can happen. 00:10:52.803 --> 00:10:57.423 Um, we know also that life changes can kick it off. 00:10:57.683 --> 00:11:04.073 A dog who was okay, but maybe when there's a house move, or a child grows up and 00:11:04.073 --> 00:11:08.393 goes to college, or some kind of, or maybe the death of another dog in the 00:11:08.393 --> 00:11:11.843 family, that can kind of kick it off. 00:11:12.663 --> 00:11:15.493 Sometimes we find that there are health problems. 00:11:16.488 --> 00:11:20.328 Um, which, and also, of course, getting, as dogs get older, they can 00:11:20.328 --> 00:11:26.158 get clingier, um, because they are maybe losing their sight a little bit 00:11:26.198 --> 00:11:30.238 or they're hearing a little bit and they're becoming more, they feel more 00:11:30.238 --> 00:11:32.788 vulnerable and need more support. 00:11:33.088 --> 00:11:38.298 So really separation anxiety or what we actually call separation 00:11:38.298 --> 00:11:43.578 related behaviors covers a whole range of different things and, um 00:11:46.158 --> 00:11:47.798 Anke: So, like, 00:11:50.268 --> 00:11:54.438 I'm just sort of thinking back, it's like, oh yeah, Jesus, I tried, like, there are 00:11:54.438 --> 00:11:58.668 recommendations, like, you know, there was stuff that I was being told to do, 00:11:58.678 --> 00:12:02.868 you know, and literally none of that worked, you know, like the stuff that, 00:12:03.278 --> 00:12:08.178 um, trainers and vets and people told me was like, oh, put them in a crate. 00:12:08.403 --> 00:12:10.793 Well, that didn't go down well, right. 00:12:10.793 --> 00:12:15.853 You know, like, just like, yeah, he basically took apart the crate and um, 00:12:15.883 --> 00:12:19.333 and then my, oh well, you know, the house is too big, put him in a room. 00:12:19.623 --> 00:12:24.123 Well, then that solved the neighbor's problem because the neighbor wouldn't 00:12:24.123 --> 00:12:28.443 hear him banging against the front door anymore, but he destroyed the room door. 00:12:28.444 --> 00:12:31.663 You know, like none of, like none of the Stop. 00:12:32.173 --> 00:12:34.953 You know, and then, yeah, give him something to entertain himself. 00:12:34.953 --> 00:12:37.453 Like that never made sense because I mean, you could kind of tell 00:12:37.543 --> 00:12:40.963 it was like way too stressed to even pay attention to any of this. 00:12:41.203 --> 00:12:47.313 So none of the stuff I was recommended to do had any, like, not the slightest, like 00:12:47.313 --> 00:12:48.943 some, some stuff didn't make sense at all. 00:12:48.943 --> 00:12:53.323 And others I tried and didn't believe the situation. 00:12:53.323 --> 00:12:57.243 So what is it that somebody can do to help the dog? 00:12:58.408 --> 00:12:59.208 Rosee: Yeah, you're right. 00:12:59.258 --> 00:13:04.288 Um, actually, well, before we get onto what we can do, I think you described 00:13:04.298 --> 00:13:08.838 so well the plight of the caregiver, you know, the dog owner, because I think we 00:13:08.838 --> 00:13:14.938 should actually maybe, because you've described that so well, that you're 00:13:14.938 --> 00:13:18.528 under enough pressure because you can see your dog is really suffering, right? 00:13:18.858 --> 00:13:22.488 And then people are giving you advice, which doesn't help at all, right? 00:13:22.898 --> 00:13:26.368 Um, And they're telling you a lot, a lot of the time that it's your fault. 00:13:26.378 --> 00:13:30.678 For example, it's your fault because you spoil your dog or it's your fault. 00:13:30.748 --> 00:13:30.908 I've 00:13:30.908 --> 00:13:31.598 Anke: got that all the time. 00:13:32.328 --> 00:13:36.618 Rosee: Yeah, because you let your dog sleep on the sofa or in the 00:13:36.618 --> 00:13:40.938 bed and, um, because you let them go out the door in front of you. 00:13:41.318 --> 00:13:47.163 One thing I think is really sad is that, um, It's your fault because you are 00:13:50.073 --> 00:13:53.823 saying goodbye to your dog before you leave and greeting when you come back. 00:13:53.823 --> 00:13:55.523 So, you know, ignore your dog. 00:13:56.023 --> 00:14:01.853 Your dog is desperate and, and you know instinctively as a dog parent 00:14:02.153 --> 00:14:06.293 that, That you don't want to ignore your dog on top of that, right? 00:14:06.753 --> 00:14:11.883 And we know through studies that, um, saying goodbye and saying hello to 00:14:11.943 --> 00:14:17.353 dogs actually helps them because these rituals, because they have social rituals 00:14:17.413 --> 00:14:20.768 and Is it interesting with the food? 00:14:20.808 --> 00:14:26.188 Because this is why I really, really, really plea, make a plea to get a 00:14:26.188 --> 00:14:31.148 professional, because there's so much online, which is really incorrect. 00:14:31.208 --> 00:14:35.938 And give them a car or give them something to chew. 00:14:36.928 --> 00:14:39.696 Sounds as though you're helping the dog. 00:14:39.696 --> 00:14:43.188 And it's in a lot of the big dog books, unfortunately. 00:14:43.188 --> 00:14:49.363 But the problem with this is, That there is, um, a thought mistake in this. 00:14:49.423 --> 00:14:54.373 Um, people think they're kind of trying to counter condition it, that the dog 00:14:54.373 --> 00:14:59.143 will feel better about them leaving, but it's the wrong order, right? 00:15:00.068 --> 00:15:04.443 It, it maybe help the dog if when you leave, they get something then, 00:15:04.443 --> 00:15:06.213 but you can't do it that way around. 00:15:06.213 --> 00:15:09.453 But if you give them something beforehand, like a call. 00:15:10.003 --> 00:15:10.863 And then leave. 00:15:10.863 --> 00:15:15.353 You're pairing food with something very scary. 00:15:15.863 --> 00:15:18.783 And we know that it's not going to take very long because the dog is, 00:15:19.243 --> 00:15:21.483 before the dog is afraid of the Kong. 00:15:21.883 --> 00:15:26.113 And I have had a client, um, 00:15:28.753 --> 00:15:30.033 couldn't feed her dog. 00:15:30.893 --> 00:15:35.243 After a few days, because the dog was so terrified when she turned up with 00:15:35.253 --> 00:15:40.333 food, and even if you are distracting the dog for a while, the dog is eating 00:15:40.333 --> 00:15:44.913 it, which most dogs who are very afraid don't, but if they do, you're only 00:15:44.913 --> 00:15:49.503 distracting them, you're not teaching them a new skill, and when the food is 00:15:49.504 --> 00:15:52.118 finished, Finished, they're going to wake up to the fact that they're alone 00:15:52.138 --> 00:15:54.698 suddenly, to a full blown panic attack. 00:15:55.488 --> 00:15:58.528 And that is why they then learn very cleverly that they should 00:15:58.538 --> 00:15:59.978 be very wary of the food. 00:16:00.318 --> 00:16:02.708 And the terrible thing is that they become really vigilant. 00:16:02.748 --> 00:16:05.798 They're watching your every single movement, yeah? 00:16:05.928 --> 00:16:08.758 Another thing that people are told to do, yeah, is put them in 00:16:08.788 --> 00:16:10.508 a crate and let them cry it out. 00:16:10.548 --> 00:16:16.143 And we know We know, um, from research, as though we didn't know 00:16:16.143 --> 00:16:19.143 it instinctively, but also with children who were left on their own 00:16:19.143 --> 00:16:24.963 to cry, that, um, that is extremely traumatizing if that happens enough. 00:16:25.013 --> 00:16:29.843 And it can even cause neurological damage because the distress is, 00:16:30.253 --> 00:16:32.913 you know, we're hardwired to stay with the group, aren't we? 00:16:33.463 --> 00:16:37.303 And so we need to, we definitely need to give our dogs a lot of security. 00:16:37.493 --> 00:16:41.263 Putting them in a crate is just an extra layer of isolation. 00:16:42.228 --> 00:16:49.438 And sadly, um, people think that crates are helpful in this context, but dogs 00:16:49.438 --> 00:16:54.878 are not den animals, and so this is really not a, not a good thing at all. 00:16:55.458 --> 00:16:59.138 So instead of doing all these things, another thing that people 00:16:59.138 --> 00:17:03.688 do, which I think is so sad, and that is they practice, they're 00:17:03.728 --> 00:17:08.028 told to do this by trying to, practicing so called departure cues. 00:17:08.803 --> 00:17:13.373 Oh, so that means, uh, putting on your jacket, like, Oh, 00:17:13.373 --> 00:17:16.033 Anke: yeah, I've been told that too, you know, try that out. 00:17:16.033 --> 00:17:20.683 So he kind of gets to disassociate like, oh, grabbing the bag or grabbing 00:17:20.693 --> 00:17:24.373 the key doesn't always mean that didn't make sense to me either. 00:17:24.373 --> 00:17:26.123 Because I'm like, now he's a poor thing and doesn't know 00:17:26.123 --> 00:17:27.253 at all what's going on, right? 00:17:28.163 --> 00:17:31.943 Now he's gonna get kind of worried about anything that's unknown sort of thing. 00:17:32.333 --> 00:17:32.813 Rosee: Yeah. 00:17:33.138 --> 00:17:35.328 I love the way you describe this because this is perfect. 00:17:35.368 --> 00:17:36.298 I did this once. 00:17:36.318 --> 00:17:40.768 I read it in a book by a very famous trainer and I picked my keys and 00:17:40.768 --> 00:17:44.868 my dog, Stevie, my greyhound just freaked out and I thought well that 00:17:44.868 --> 00:17:49.678 can't be a good idea because really you're just triggering the fear. 00:17:50.083 --> 00:17:53.773 They're not afraid of the keys, they're afraid of you leaving, so you're 00:17:53.773 --> 00:17:57.183 just triggering the fear over and over and over and over and over again 00:17:57.203 --> 00:17:58.883 without solving the dog's problem. 00:17:59.163 --> 00:18:02.583 So, that's a bit of a long winded way of getting back to your actual 00:18:02.583 --> 00:18:05.233 question is what do we do then, instead? 00:18:05.643 --> 00:18:12.378 Um, and the only One way we know from practice and from study to help a 00:18:12.378 --> 00:18:20.728 dog recover from this is by a very carefully led process of desensitization. 00:18:21.188 --> 00:18:26.488 It is really analog to the way I understand in human psychology. 00:18:27.328 --> 00:18:30.018 Humans are helped with fears and phobias. 00:18:30.128 --> 00:18:33.038 It's called, it's also known as gradual exposure therapy. 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:39.413 And I think what people Often are really surprised about is how tiny 00:18:39.413 --> 00:18:42.943 the steps we do with the, we're not doing one minute and then 00:18:42.943 --> 00:18:44.873 five minutes and then ten minutes. 00:18:45.753 --> 00:18:51.553 This is dog led, we have to, we have to make sure that we're only practicing 00:18:51.673 --> 00:18:54.283 what the dog feels comfortable with because we don't want to be 00:18:54.283 --> 00:18:56.593 practicing fear or anxiety, right. 00:18:57.353 --> 00:19:01.493 And people will come sometimes, they will say to me, my dog can do 00:19:01.503 --> 00:19:04.223 5 minutes or 10 minutes, half an hour outside the door, no problem. 00:19:04.533 --> 00:19:08.943 And when I do an assessment with them, and I'm watching the dog, and 00:19:08.943 --> 00:19:13.733 I record it so they can watch it with me afterwards, we will often see, 00:19:13.733 --> 00:19:15.553 usually, that the dog is triggered. 00:19:17.448 --> 00:19:20.588 It's already at the door, so maybe when they touch the door handle, 00:19:20.648 --> 00:19:22.638 or the sound of the door handle. 00:19:23.288 --> 00:19:26.148 Some dogs are even triggered when people stand up, right? 00:19:26.148 --> 00:19:30.818 Because they've learned that their only source of information 00:19:30.818 --> 00:19:33.038 is to track people's movements. 00:19:33.168 --> 00:19:36.298 And so we do, we have a little signal. 00:19:36.923 --> 00:19:38.813 A verbal and hand signal. 00:19:39.583 --> 00:19:44.673 I like to use this as a safe, so called safe signal, so that we can 00:19:44.673 --> 00:19:46.293 make it predictable for the dog. 00:19:46.293 --> 00:19:48.713 It's a way of saying to them, I'm going to stand up now. 00:19:48.713 --> 00:19:49.603 I'm going to move. 00:19:50.243 --> 00:19:56.903 And whenever I give this signal, um, it's a promise to never do 00:19:56.903 --> 00:19:58.753 anything that the dog is afraid of. 00:19:59.083 --> 00:20:02.613 So they learn when I do this, it's going to be very, very short. 00:20:03.568 --> 00:20:04.218 Absences. 00:20:04.438 --> 00:20:06.618 And we're thinking about absences, but actually the dog 00:20:06.618 --> 00:20:08.458 is thinking about us coming back. 00:20:08.908 --> 00:20:12.488 So in, in a way, I like to turn it around, so we're gonna, we practice 00:20:12.978 --> 00:20:16.698 loads and loads of times just coming back before the dog's even 00:20:16.698 --> 00:20:18.228 getting worried about us leaving. 00:20:18.648 --> 00:20:21.938 The good news is that this is very effective. 00:20:22.728 --> 00:20:24.478 It is really, really very effective. 00:20:24.758 --> 00:20:31.768 It takes some dedication and time, it does, but We can help many, many that. 00:20:32.038 --> 00:20:37.828 Anke: I think the, the, the tiny steps, I mean, that's something that, that I got 00:20:37.858 --> 00:20:42.018 to understand in a, like in a different context, was basically teaching one of 00:20:42.018 --> 00:20:44.268 the dogs, like it was to stay, right? 00:20:44.718 --> 00:20:48.768 And I followed some instructions and it was like really frustrating for everyone. 00:20:49.278 --> 00:20:53.028 And, um, and then later I found like a different way, 00:20:53.028 --> 00:20:54.438 it was explained differently. 00:20:54.438 --> 00:20:58.738 And I got to see that I had really like lumped about 10 steps into one. 00:20:59.313 --> 00:20:59.803 Thinking. 00:20:59.813 --> 00:21:04.753 See, the thing is, I didn't go in with this idea of, oh, let me just give 00:21:04.763 --> 00:21:09.793 my dog a real horrible time here, you know, by just making him jump ahead. 00:21:10.193 --> 00:21:11.393 like 10 steps. 00:21:11.603 --> 00:21:13.633 I thought I was taking tiny steps. 00:21:13.963 --> 00:21:15.993 I think that's probably often the problem comes. 00:21:16.013 --> 00:21:19.703 You think you're taking small steps, but for the dog it's not. 00:21:20.633 --> 00:21:22.163 Rosee: No, it isn't. 00:21:22.233 --> 00:21:27.653 And, um, yeah, I said it before, but I can't really say it. 00:21:27.908 --> 00:21:33.408 Say that this is a serious welfare issue and I really, really make a plea for 00:21:33.408 --> 00:21:39.178 people getting a professional to show them how to do it because after four, 00:21:39.198 --> 00:21:44.208 eight, eight weeks, depending on, you know, the severity of the case, you'll 00:21:44.218 --> 00:21:48.728 be able to then continue the work on your own, but, or with, you know, perhaps 00:21:48.918 --> 00:21:54.088 slightly less, um, support if you want to, but definitely learn how to do it. 00:21:55.283 --> 00:21:58.403 Anke: That makes, I mean, I think it also like takes a lot of pressure off 00:21:58.403 --> 00:22:03.143 because, you know, you saying, hey, look, it's almost like, like, it feels like 00:22:03.143 --> 00:22:08.463 if I go, if I listen to this, you know, through the lens of, okay, I was that 00:22:08.463 --> 00:22:12.103 dog parent with the dog, you know, where you kind of feel guilty already, right? 00:22:12.103 --> 00:22:16.983 So now you kind of have the sense, well, you should know how to fix it, right? 00:22:17.193 --> 00:22:20.803 So now you coming in saying, well, look, this is actually more complex than that. 00:22:20.804 --> 00:22:29.583 than it is, than it seems, so you're not kind of failing your dog by hitting a 00:22:29.583 --> 00:22:33.583 wall, to say like, no, do get professional help, because it can be learned, 00:22:33.603 --> 00:22:35.693 but probably not from a book, right? 00:22:37.328 --> 00:22:38.728 Rosee: Exactly that, really. 00:22:39.508 --> 00:22:42.028 There are not that many. 00:22:42.028 --> 00:22:47.598 There's several hundred professionals specialised in this in the world. 00:22:47.908 --> 00:22:54.038 And we all work online because it is the one area of dog work which 00:22:54.068 --> 00:22:56.258 actually functions better online. 00:22:57.068 --> 00:22:59.428 then because it is based on observation. 00:22:59.428 --> 00:23:04.268 You have to be able to, um, my, my clients learn to be the experts 00:23:04.268 --> 00:23:05.838 in their dog's body language. 00:23:05.838 --> 00:23:12.308 They're learning to read the tiniest, tiniest signs of anxiety or when the 00:23:12.318 --> 00:23:15.548 dog's even just beginning to think, oh, I don't know, I don't really like that. 00:23:15.868 --> 00:23:20.498 That can be kind of, you know, Just blink, blinking more, or showing a bit of white 00:23:20.498 --> 00:23:26.208 in the eye, what we call whale eye, or lip licking, or very subtle signs where 00:23:26.448 --> 00:23:32.558 a dog might start to scratch a bit, um, or even sort of groom a bit, sort of self 00:23:32.568 --> 00:23:35.588 soothing behaviors, things like that. 00:23:35.918 --> 00:23:40.518 And once they know what, what the repertoire is that the dog, uh, uses, 00:23:40.518 --> 00:23:44.328 then they are very well equipped to be able to keep the dog always under 00:23:44.328 --> 00:23:46.078 threshold, because that's what it's about. 00:23:46.318 --> 00:23:50.243 We don't want to Tip the dog into another fear episode. 00:23:53.018 --> 00:23:55.778 Because we know more now about how this works neurologically. 00:23:56.158 --> 00:24:00.658 Um, we don't want to be We're trying to build new pathways, you know. 00:24:00.988 --> 00:24:08.058 The default mode of the dog is, um, if you go away, it's, I'm terrified. 00:24:08.058 --> 00:24:12.118 But we can overlay this with, with new pathways. 00:24:12.388 --> 00:24:17.353 But it means always, we want to Overlay it with pathways where the 00:24:17.353 --> 00:24:19.503 dog's saying, Oh, I could do this. 00:24:19.613 --> 00:24:20.423 I can do this. 00:24:20.443 --> 00:24:22.793 That's fine by me that I can do this. 00:24:22.803 --> 00:24:23.113 Right. 00:24:23.643 --> 00:24:27.873 And so it's a bit counterintuitive at first, but we have to practice what the 00:24:27.873 --> 00:24:30.273 dog can do and not what the dog can't do. 00:24:31.473 --> 00:24:32.413 Anke: I mean, it does. 00:24:32.414 --> 00:24:32.643 It does. 00:24:32.643 --> 00:24:33.433 It does make sense. 00:24:33.513 --> 00:24:33.673 Right. 00:24:34.013 --> 00:24:37.503 So it's like, yeah, you get more of what you practice. 00:24:37.603 --> 00:24:37.773 Right. 00:24:37.773 --> 00:24:38.633 So you want to. 00:24:39.473 --> 00:24:42.073 Yeah, that makes it makes all the sense in the world. 00:24:42.363 --> 00:24:44.833 Rosee: So, I love that. 00:24:45.073 --> 00:24:46.623 I'm going to quote you to my lines. 00:24:48.233 --> 00:24:50.173 You get more of what you practice. 00:24:50.173 --> 00:24:50.783 I love that. 00:24:50.783 --> 00:24:52.423 I'm going to write that down right now. 00:24:52.783 --> 00:24:53.433 Anke: I've seen this. 00:24:53.473 --> 00:24:54.693 I've seen this to be honest. 00:24:54.693 --> 00:24:58.943 I got to see this in Australia when I was at the golf driving range 00:24:58.953 --> 00:25:02.693 and I saw these Japanese people like practicing like crazy, but 00:25:02.693 --> 00:25:05.293 like some really wonky like swing. 00:25:05.333 --> 00:25:09.493 And I'm like, Ooh, like, you know, like it doesn't matter how diligent you are 00:25:09.493 --> 00:25:10.923 if you're practicing the wrong thing. 00:25:10.923 --> 00:25:11.173 Right. 00:25:12.723 --> 00:25:13.103 Rosee: True. 00:25:13.923 --> 00:25:14.483 Sadly. 00:25:14.673 --> 00:25:18.403 And that is also sad because people come to me sometimes, they've spent a 00:25:18.403 --> 00:25:20.943 lot of money and a lot of dedication. 00:25:21.213 --> 00:25:26.503 Because really, people with separation anxiety, dogs that I know, they're 00:25:26.503 --> 00:25:30.253 so aware of the distress of their dog and they are so dedicated, right? 00:25:30.583 --> 00:25:34.373 And then it's really sad if they have been misled by wrong advice. 00:25:35.093 --> 00:25:35.943 I mean, that's, 00:25:35.973 --> 00:25:39.433 Anke: that's probably, I think, one of the biggest problems with this 00:25:39.453 --> 00:25:43.923 is because yeah, I remember clearly everybody has advice for you, you 00:25:43.923 --> 00:25:48.373 know, to really differentiate which advice to listen to and which, which 00:25:48.533 --> 00:25:52.173 didn't like, is there, is there one thing you think like, well, out of all 00:25:52.173 --> 00:25:54.233 the things like this really don't do? 00:25:56.483 --> 00:26:00.633 Rosee: Yeah, well, I, Um, definitely don't ever let your dog cry out 00:26:00.633 --> 00:26:05.023 because they will not learn to feel safe by feeling unsafe. 00:26:05.023 --> 00:26:06.923 That is just a complete no no. 00:26:06.923 --> 00:26:09.543 That's really, don't ever trick your dog. 00:26:09.733 --> 00:26:14.073 Some people, for example, and I know very wonderful, wonderful dog 00:26:14.423 --> 00:26:18.173 carers who have thought they can help their dog by leaving secretly. 00:26:18.663 --> 00:26:23.918 If their dog, they, they hope that if the dog doesn't see them leave, 00:26:24.408 --> 00:26:26.068 it will help them cope better. 00:26:26.068 --> 00:26:29.538 But what the dog learns very fast is they've been tricked and 00:26:29.538 --> 00:26:31.298 they need to be very vigilant. 00:26:31.868 --> 00:26:35.568 Uh, in that way, the dog becomes hypervigilant to their every 00:26:35.568 --> 00:26:38.688 movement in case their person is going to disappear on them. 00:26:38.689 --> 00:26:39.838 Yeah. 00:26:40.298 --> 00:26:43.028 Anke: I mean, if you look at it, like, because the problem is all 00:26:43.048 --> 00:26:47.348 these approaches, you know, if the assumption they're based on were 00:26:47.348 --> 00:26:49.118 true, it would make a lot of sense. 00:26:49.269 --> 00:26:53.688 But if the assumption underneath is wrong, then you can really 00:26:53.688 --> 00:26:55.278 cause a lot of harm there. 00:26:56.628 --> 00:27:02.418 Rosee: Exactly, but we all do these things, um, with the best interest 00:27:02.418 --> 00:27:07.808 at heart, and sometimes they come from, sadly, from, you know, Trainers 00:27:07.808 --> 00:27:10.458 who are probably quite good at other, in other areas, but they 00:27:10.458 --> 00:27:12.018 haven't had a specialist training. 00:27:12.408 --> 00:27:17.098 And all these things used to be advised in the old, educated, before 00:27:17.098 --> 00:27:18.858 there was any real knowledge about it. 00:27:19.928 --> 00:27:25.198 That, um, yes, don't expect that putting your dog in a crate is going to 00:27:25.198 --> 00:27:28.418 teach them any kind of skills at all. 00:27:28.598 --> 00:27:32.978 Um, there is a lot of, uh, great movements you probably know too. 00:27:33.458 --> 00:27:37.358 Try and educate people that this is not a way to help your dog. 00:27:37.808 --> 00:27:43.468 In a way, crates prevent your dog learning how to live in your home, you know, 00:27:43.578 --> 00:27:46.268 that they should feel safe everywhere. 00:27:47.108 --> 00:27:47.338 That makes 00:27:47.338 --> 00:27:47.728 Anke: sense. 00:27:47.988 --> 00:27:51.708 Because I think at the end of the problem with this whole topic of, like, if you 00:27:51.708 --> 00:27:57.843 have a dog with separation anxiety, the, like, Your dog suffers and you feel 00:27:57.843 --> 00:27:59.603 like a prisoner in your house, right? 00:27:59.603 --> 00:28:05.523 So, and I think knowing that there is a way to actually address what's 00:28:05.573 --> 00:28:11.753 really going on so you can get to a point where, you know, your dog doesn't 00:28:11.773 --> 00:28:16.383 mind staying alone and you can go out without, you know, Feeling guilty or 00:28:16.393 --> 00:28:20.363 feeling horrible, you know, I think that is just such a such a game changer. 00:28:20.363 --> 00:28:23.873 So if people want help and like, you know, take it to your 00:28:23.873 --> 00:28:27.923 advice and do want professional help, where can they find yours? 00:28:28.693 --> 00:28:34.323 Rosee: Okay, well, um, they, I have a website called Separation Anxiety 00:28:34.453 --> 00:28:41.003 Dog Training, which is quite a long, long name, but that's very clear. 00:28:42.363 --> 00:28:45.233 Yeah, I like to put on, you know, what's on the tin is in the 00:28:45.233 --> 00:28:48.173 tin, um, so they can contact me. 00:28:48.648 --> 00:28:51.308 me there and make an appointment. 00:28:51.348 --> 00:28:53.718 We can have a chat about things, see if we're good fit. 00:28:54.668 --> 00:28:57.458 And then I have various different programs. 00:28:57.538 --> 00:29:02.808 Um, and, um, I also speak German. 00:29:02.808 --> 00:29:07.558 So these online programs, uh, I can do, I do all over the world. 00:29:07.558 --> 00:29:09.118 I have clients all over the world. 00:29:09.548 --> 00:29:13.338 Um, and I speak English as you can hear, but I also speak German. 00:29:13.788 --> 00:29:20.708 So, um, I have a German website as well called gooddogpractice. 00:29:21.268 --> 00:29:27.078 eu, uh, if you don't feel you can cope with the English website. 00:29:27.098 --> 00:29:32.558 But however you get to me through the, through my calendar, we can, 00:29:32.868 --> 00:29:34.778 we can definitely help your dog. 00:29:35.078 --> 00:29:38.578 Don't leave it any longer than you, you need to. 00:29:38.608 --> 00:29:43.638 Some people think, um, This is another one that says, sort of, one of these 00:29:43.638 --> 00:29:49.608 myths, I don't need to teach my dog to stay on their own because I work 00:29:49.608 --> 00:29:52.128 from home and I'm never out anyway. 00:29:52.678 --> 00:29:57.998 This is not a good idea because this fear will deepen neurologically, 00:29:58.008 --> 00:29:59.708 in the background if you like. 00:30:02.538 --> 00:30:05.358 I think every dog should have this skill. 00:30:05.898 --> 00:30:08.908 They don't have to be left alone for hours and hours and hours, 00:30:08.908 --> 00:30:11.228 but they should feel safe. 00:30:11.288 --> 00:30:13.778 We should enable them to feel safe. 00:30:13.808 --> 00:30:15.698 I think it's a really important skill. 00:30:16.008 --> 00:30:20.698 And I've noticed that If they do have this skill, it often gives them more 00:30:20.698 --> 00:30:23.218 confidence in other areas of their life. 00:30:24.188 --> 00:30:25.278 Makes sense, yeah. 00:30:25.718 --> 00:30:29.608 Anke: Actually, it's funny because I always thought me working from home 00:30:29.638 --> 00:30:35.078 actually made things harder for my dog because there was no predictability. 00:30:35.773 --> 00:30:36.443 Rosee: Yes, 00:30:36.613 --> 00:30:36.853 Anke: yeah. 00:30:36.883 --> 00:30:40.873 You know, because he never knew, you know, he was like never alone. 00:30:41.183 --> 00:30:45.953 I was there 24 7 like for days at a time, you know, or I would take him wherever I 00:30:45.953 --> 00:30:50.373 went and then all of a sudden like, you know, where I think I always thought like 00:30:50.383 --> 00:30:56.093 if I worked in an office and he did, mine did get better when I started to go to 00:30:56.133 --> 00:31:00.633 regular yoga classes and I remember the first time I saw him when I grabbed that 00:31:00.683 --> 00:31:03.193 yoga mat, I saw him jump on the couch. 00:31:03.953 --> 00:31:04.643 Rosee: Yeah, yeah. 00:31:04.643 --> 00:31:04.853 That's 00:31:04.853 --> 00:31:05.523 Anke: where I knew. 00:31:05.553 --> 00:31:08.053 So there was like, oh, we're turning a corner here because he 00:31:08.073 --> 00:31:10.463 recognized, okay, she takes that math. 00:31:10.493 --> 00:31:12.953 That means after X amount of time, she'll be back. 00:31:13.483 --> 00:31:17.573 You know, and I'm thinking normally by working at home, from home and having 00:31:17.583 --> 00:31:21.843 like no real rhythm in a sense, you know, regular rhythm, I always thought it made 00:31:21.843 --> 00:31:23.413 it harder for him rather than better. 00:31:24.493 --> 00:31:25.123 Rosee: No, absolutely. 00:31:25.183 --> 00:31:27.023 And we can, we can teach dogs. 00:31:27.023 --> 00:31:29.283 We just need to do it at their own pace. 00:31:29.343 --> 00:31:31.463 Otherwise we're just making it worse. 00:31:32.023 --> 00:31:37.143 And some dogs, like, like it sounds like your dog, um, Yeah, that's, 00:31:37.143 --> 00:31:38.183 that's another reason actually. 00:31:38.183 --> 00:31:40.943 We talked about reasons that, um, dogs have it. 00:31:40.963 --> 00:31:44.703 Sometimes they just haven't learned it and then they learn it quite 00:31:44.703 --> 00:31:48.683 quickly, you know, because, um, dogs like that tend to, we tend to say 00:31:48.683 --> 00:31:51.233 they have, um, isolation, distress. 00:31:51.233 --> 00:31:56.013 It's just that they have not yet used to being on a, but there are dogs and 00:31:56.053 --> 00:32:01.373 my, my, Stevie, my greyhound was one of these who had actual separation anxiety, 00:32:01.373 --> 00:32:07.123 which is strictly speaking the fear, It's also, it does exist in humans as 00:32:07.123 --> 00:32:11.593 well and children and the fear of being separated from a particular person. 00:32:12.893 --> 00:32:18.203 That is a bit tougher still when it comes to being a prisoner in your 00:32:18.203 --> 00:32:23.063 own home because you can't even, I couldn't even leave him with people 00:32:23.063 --> 00:32:25.663 that he knew, although he loved people. 00:32:26.573 --> 00:32:29.353 But I was the first person who'd ever taken care of him. 00:32:29.353 --> 00:32:31.533 You know, he'd come from the racetrack. 00:32:31.593 --> 00:32:35.933 We don't know exactly how he had been kept before he came to the rescue, 00:32:35.933 --> 00:32:43.503 but sometimes they're kept in cages or in, you know, um, kennels and stuff. 00:32:43.523 --> 00:32:50.438 They don't have much human interaction, so it's Very natural when a rescue comes 00:32:50.438 --> 00:32:55.278 to you that they're going to need time to feel secure and build up their bond first. 00:32:55.338 --> 00:32:55.698 Yeah. 00:32:55.798 --> 00:33:00.448 So a lot of people sort of, I said, my, my rescue dog, if it has 00:33:00.448 --> 00:33:02.788 separation anxiety, I said, well, how long have they been with you? 00:33:02.808 --> 00:33:03.478 Three days. 00:33:03.508 --> 00:33:07.898 Well, yeah, you know, uh, that takes a little bit of time. 00:33:07.898 --> 00:33:11.328 But one thing that if you do have a dog, like, like Stevie, who, 00:33:11.368 --> 00:33:15.163 uh, couldn't, It only was, you know, very fixed, fixated on me. 00:33:15.593 --> 00:33:21.643 Um, there is something you can do before you even start on the desensitizing 00:33:21.643 --> 00:33:23.203 the door and doing departures. 00:33:23.203 --> 00:33:26.023 And that is something we call spreading the love. 00:33:26.063 --> 00:33:32.333 And that is, um, very gradually building up positive associations with being with 00:33:32.573 --> 00:33:35.253 another person or being in a relationship. 00:33:36.093 --> 00:33:40.583 And later, maybe two or three different people, but you have to do this so 00:33:40.583 --> 00:33:43.993 slowly because we always have to remember this is a safety issue. 00:33:44.023 --> 00:33:45.823 The dog has to feel safe, you know? 00:33:45.833 --> 00:33:46.013 Yeah, 00:33:46.683 --> 00:33:47.063 Anke: I love that. 00:33:47.503 --> 00:33:48.533 A safety issue. 00:33:48.563 --> 00:33:51.073 That's just Yeah, that's just beautiful. 00:33:51.283 --> 00:33:52.643 I'll just wrap it up. 00:33:52.643 --> 00:33:56.063 So, because we could kind of talk forever and I'll definitely want you back. 00:33:57.093 --> 00:33:57.143 Rosee: So, 00:33:57.833 --> 00:33:59.593 Anke: yeah, well, thank you so much. 00:33:59.613 --> 00:34:03.093 I think we've told people where to go and like really the core 00:34:03.123 --> 00:34:04.943 message, like, it's not your fault. 00:34:05.283 --> 00:34:06.653 There is help available. 00:34:06.673 --> 00:34:07.313 Go get it. 00:34:08.868 --> 00:34:11.978 Link in the comments below, link in the, you know, in the show notes. 00:34:12.188 --> 00:34:14.288 And if you watch the video, it's just above or below. 00:34:14.288 --> 00:34:19.078 So do get in touch and, you know, make sure you and your dog have a better time. 00:34:20.098 --> 00:34:20.798 Rosee: Definitely. 00:34:20.838 --> 00:34:22.498 Thank you so much, Anke. 00:34:22.498 --> 00:34:23.218 Thank you. 00:34:25.028 --> 00:34:26.258 Thanks so much for listening. 00:34:26.778 --> 00:34:31.078 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:34:31.178 --> 00:34:32.958 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:34:33.748 --> 00:34:37.238 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:34:37.668 --> 00:34:43.238 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:34:43.338 --> 00:34:45.708 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:34:45.709 --> 00:34:49.438 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:34:49.858 --> 00:34:50.998 I'd love an introduction. 00:34:51.478 --> 00:34:53.308 Email me at Anke. 00:34:53.578 --> 00:34:57.813 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.