WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.700 --> 00:00:03.100 Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things. 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:04.540 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:04.660 --> 00:00:05.380 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:05.997 --> 00:00:08.097 And today some listen to mail. 00:00:08.397 --> 00:00:09.327 We love listen to mail. 00:00:09.327 --> 00:00:11.607 Sam Super fan Kate. 00:00:12.147 --> 00:00:12.657 Yes. 00:00:12.657 --> 00:00:15.537 Super fan Kate, who almost always writes into us. 00:00:16.107 --> 00:00:16.497 Yes. 00:00:16.497 --> 00:00:18.112 We're gonna address one of her. 00:00:18.252 --> 00:00:19.072 Uh mm-hmm. 00:00:19.317 --> 00:00:21.087 Little thoughts. 00:00:21.147 --> 00:00:21.627 That's right. 00:00:21.627 --> 00:00:24.237 Any, any person could dream of having. 00:00:24.657 --> 00:00:27.057 The level of support that Kate's given over the years. 00:00:27.297 --> 00:00:28.287 Oh yeah. 00:00:28.287 --> 00:00:29.547 You could only dream. 00:00:29.637 --> 00:00:30.657 Yeah, that's right. 00:00:30.657 --> 00:00:33.717 And all it takes is just a little bit, you know? 00:00:33.837 --> 00:00:36.837 Um, you don't need an army, you just need someone thoughtful. 00:00:38.457 --> 00:00:42.057 Hey, so you mentioned in one of your recent eps the concept of radical honesty. 00:00:42.087 --> 00:00:44.307 And if you are looking for topic ideas, I would love to 00:00:44.307 --> 00:00:46.287 hear you talk more about that. 00:00:46.527 --> 00:00:48.267 Alright, let's talk about radical honesty. 00:00:49.062 --> 00:00:52.332 I think I've been practicing this my whole adult life. 00:00:53.082 --> 00:00:54.702 I thought it was my concept. 00:00:54.702 --> 00:00:58.032 You looked it up briefly before the show and decided it was some random 00:00:58.032 --> 00:01:05.502 guy from America, but I, I, what I mean by radical honesty is honesty. 00:01:05.592 --> 00:01:10.242 Honesty, no matter what, when it's not comfortable and when it's 00:01:10.242 --> 00:01:13.452 not convenient and all of that. 00:01:13.452 --> 00:01:15.007 Now, the only problem with it is. 00:01:15.987 --> 00:01:19.137 Honesty is just my version of the truth, right? 00:01:19.167 --> 00:01:19.257 Yes. 00:01:19.587 --> 00:01:22.347 Like I, I'm not giving you the objective truth. 00:01:22.527 --> 00:01:22.677 No. 00:01:22.707 --> 00:01:27.807 So it comes across as being a bit of an asshole, and I have lost more 00:01:27.807 --> 00:01:34.047 friends through radical honesty than almost anything else, uh, in my life. 00:01:34.917 --> 00:01:37.557 But yeah, I wanted you to have a swing at it, Sam. 00:01:37.797 --> 00:01:40.317 Well, I just wanted to let you go before I jumped in, but. 00:01:40.780 --> 00:01:46.210 I think that no one, uh, including Brad Branton, who has copyrighted 00:01:46.210 --> 00:01:47.770 this term, radical honesty. 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.870 I, I don't, we had to name check Brad or we're gonna get sued. 00:01:53.050 --> 00:01:53.380 Yeah. 00:01:53.380 --> 00:01:56.710 Look, I just wanna say I really actually am drawn to this person's 00:01:56.710 --> 00:02:00.068 story, and it makes a lot of sense for a person who end up making their lives 00:02:00.068 --> 00:02:02.468 work, advocating for radical honesty. 00:02:02.666 --> 00:02:03.451 but I don't think it's a. 00:02:03.776 --> 00:02:05.996 Uh, necessarily a new concept. 00:02:05.996 --> 00:02:08.816 It's more just the way that it's been worded. 00:02:08.816 --> 00:02:12.386 It was probably around back with like Socrates and Play-Doh and all those. 00:02:12.386 --> 00:02:12.806 Absolutely. 00:02:12.806 --> 00:02:13.286 No doubt. 00:02:13.286 --> 00:02:17.696 There's a, an ancient Greek philosopher who could, you know, back us up here and, 00:02:17.786 --> 00:02:22.376 you know, say that yes, you should tell the truth even if it costs you something. 00:02:22.536 --> 00:02:25.956 perhaps Seneca or something, you know, could be quoted saying 00:02:25.956 --> 00:02:27.276 something along the lines of. 00:02:28.101 --> 00:02:30.321 Look, literally, it could cost you everything and it's 00:02:30.321 --> 00:02:31.431 still what you should do. 00:02:31.551 --> 00:02:31.701 Mm. 00:02:31.701 --> 00:02:34.821 You know, like, uh, there's a lot of power in the truth, Sam. 00:02:35.571 --> 00:02:36.141 There is. 00:02:36.351 --> 00:02:38.901 And it can, it can cause a lot of hurt. 00:02:39.591 --> 00:02:44.421 And so there's a number of philosophical problems that, you know, we'll probably 00:02:44.421 --> 00:02:47.091 have to deal with in the course of this, but I'll just go on the record 00:02:47.091 --> 00:02:54.171 as saying, I want to live my life more this way than the other, and. 00:02:54.681 --> 00:02:59.721 I can give examples in the past of saying things that I thought were 00:02:59.721 --> 00:03:03.021 important to say, even though I knew that it would cost me something. 00:03:03.441 --> 00:03:07.551 And other times when I said the truth, thinking that it would 00:03:07.641 --> 00:03:09.111 all work out and it didn't. 00:03:09.651 --> 00:03:16.461 And other times where I wish I'd been much, much more truthful 00:03:16.701 --> 00:03:18.381 and I have regrets about that. 00:03:18.441 --> 00:03:23.181 I remember in my twenties annoying someone and then saying to them, Hey. 00:03:23.826 --> 00:03:25.896 I'm just an ambassador for the truth, man. 00:03:26.586 --> 00:03:30.726 Now let's also address, you know, like, let's address that. 00:03:30.756 --> 00:03:35.706 I, I've used the truth as a, as a defense, as a sword, I would say yes. 00:03:35.736 --> 00:03:41.256 Like as I, the truth as I see it is my sword and I go out and I slay, you know? 00:03:41.766 --> 00:03:42.156 Yeah. 00:03:42.156 --> 00:03:45.336 And I think that sometimes the wise warrior needs to, 00:03:45.626 --> 00:03:47.636 Not pull out the sword, right? 00:03:47.666 --> 00:03:51.506 There's not always a call for the, for the, you don't need to 00:03:51.506 --> 00:03:52.976 go on the offense all the time. 00:03:53.036 --> 00:03:59.126 But when it comes to a choice between biting your tongue and saying 00:03:59.126 --> 00:04:01.886 what's on your mind, uh, it's tough. 00:04:01.886 --> 00:04:04.886 And I think finding the right way to say it is pretty important. 00:04:04.886 --> 00:04:08.516 And what you said earlier about, Hey, it's just my version of the truth. 00:04:09.776 --> 00:04:13.361 You have to keep that firmly in mind because the number of times I was 00:04:13.361 --> 00:04:16.691 absolutely convinced of something and then it turned out later that 00:04:16.691 --> 00:04:18.281 I, well, I was not fully informed. 00:04:18.341 --> 00:04:20.711 Yeah, like when you fully supported the Iraq war. 00:04:22.061 --> 00:04:25.451 Did I, I remember Sam, don't try and deny it. 00:04:25.451 --> 00:04:26.471 You're a NeoCon. 00:04:26.793 --> 00:04:27.538 Weapons it's a mess. 00:04:27.778 --> 00:04:28.098 Destruction. 00:04:28.383 --> 00:04:29.298 You had the t-shirt. 00:04:29.898 --> 00:04:30.648 Come on, Sam. 00:04:30.648 --> 00:04:31.158 Wait a minute. 00:04:31.158 --> 00:04:32.688 Are you getting me mixed up with someone else? 00:04:33.768 --> 00:04:34.068 I'm joking. 00:04:34.398 --> 00:04:35.028 Oh yeah, yeah. 00:04:35.448 --> 00:04:35.868 Okay. 00:04:36.168 --> 00:04:39.858 Yeah, I was like, but look, I'm, but I'm the kind of guy you can say 00:04:39.858 --> 00:04:41.358 that and I will like consider it. 00:04:41.418 --> 00:04:42.948 I'll be like, you know what? 00:04:43.488 --> 00:04:46.308 It doesn't sound like me, but I'm gonna take you at your word 00:04:46.308 --> 00:04:48.498 and, 'cause I'm on the spectrum, I'm gonna take people at there. 00:04:48.498 --> 00:04:53.928 I think that's the great, one of the great 20th first century examples of. 00:04:54.363 --> 00:04:56.493 People thinking they knew the truth. 00:04:57.063 --> 00:05:01.113 Uh, or maybe only a couple of them actually believed it about Saddam 00:05:01.113 --> 00:05:02.433 and weapons of mass destruction. 00:05:02.433 --> 00:05:07.563 But it was like the ultimate con I'm, I'm sorry to, I'm sorry to stick my 00:05:07.563 --> 00:05:10.713 head down this rabbit hole and invite everyone to follow me, but this wasn't 00:05:10.713 --> 00:05:15.993 a fantastic example of when the truth would've benefited everybody enormously. 00:05:16.353 --> 00:05:18.448 And the truth of the conflict. 00:05:19.623 --> 00:05:25.173 That America began in Iraq was that it actually began way back in the, in 00:05:25.173 --> 00:05:31.803 Iran when the Ayatollah and the Islamic radicals took over Iran, which at the 00:05:31.803 --> 00:05:35.752 time, had had a, a series, well had it had a political instability for a 00:05:35.752 --> 00:05:41.722 long time because, uh, it had been a puppet regime, more or less for British 00:05:41.722 --> 00:05:44.362 American oil, uh, for a long, long time. 00:05:44.542 --> 00:05:46.912 And it was not a sustainable situation. 00:05:47.722 --> 00:05:52.282 And the, as the Cold War went on, you know, the Soviet Union had a role 00:05:52.282 --> 00:05:53.812 to play in that part of the world. 00:05:55.222 --> 00:06:01.672 And more importantly, the, the West's best idea of how to manage Iran was with, you 00:06:01.672 --> 00:06:06.292 know, some sort of fake monarch basically, that the people did not support. 00:06:06.802 --> 00:06:10.162 And then because the CIA and State Department, and. 00:06:10.537 --> 00:06:14.977 You know, British, uh, playbook is basically like suppress all left 00:06:14.977 --> 00:06:20.017 wing opposition within the country and prop up a, a right wing regime, 00:06:20.647 --> 00:06:22.687 best case scenario center right. 00:06:22.897 --> 00:06:27.937 You know, with some, some liberal freedoms for, you know, some people. 00:06:28.163 --> 00:06:33.113 but yeah, always ruthlessly suppress any genuine left wing movements. 00:06:33.353 --> 00:06:35.933 And so when push comes to shove and the sha gets. 00:06:36.488 --> 00:06:38.258 Knocked out of power. 00:06:38.527 --> 00:06:42.337 There was no left wing opposition to take his place. 00:06:42.337 --> 00:06:46.327 There was not even a centrist, you know, party really. 00:06:46.327 --> 00:06:48.247 There was just, you know, a few middle class liberals, you know, 00:06:48.247 --> 00:06:52.627 doctors and lawyers and stuff, and religious fundamentalists. 00:06:52.777 --> 00:06:55.237 So what happens? 00:06:55.267 --> 00:06:58.477 The religious fundamentalists are the most organized, for whatever 00:06:58.477 --> 00:07:01.237 reason, the CAA wasn't keeping them down to the same degree. 00:07:02.092 --> 00:07:03.652 So then they take power. 00:07:03.772 --> 00:07:05.692 Then the US goes, oops, a daisy. 00:07:05.722 --> 00:07:06.772 That's not what we wanted. 00:07:06.772 --> 00:07:09.232 We now don't have a favorable regime to buy the oil. 00:07:09.622 --> 00:07:15.562 So now let's empower this guy in Iraq called Saddam Hussein to concentrate 00:07:15.652 --> 00:07:21.682 power, build up a military, we'll arm him and train him, and then we will 00:07:21.682 --> 00:07:23.392 get him to start a war with the run. 00:07:23.932 --> 00:07:27.382 In the 1980s, the Iraq Iran War, which led to the deaths of millions 00:07:27.382 --> 00:07:29.022 of people on both sides, and. 00:07:29.407 --> 00:07:35.012 It was a, a horrible tragedy for both countries and pointless, more 00:07:35.012 --> 00:07:37.472 or less the US didn't really achieve. 00:07:37.472 --> 00:07:39.520 Its, uh, its aims So, yeah. 00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:43.180 So then the, uh, the Islamic regime remains in place when, arguably 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:44.500 it might've gone down sooner. 00:07:44.987 --> 00:07:49.607 Then, uh, Saddam's empowered, so he goes and invades Q eight 00:07:49.667 --> 00:07:51.227 US has to respond to that. 00:07:51.647 --> 00:07:55.487 And then nine 11, they take their chance to fight a war on two 00:07:55.487 --> 00:07:59.477 fronts, which was all part of the project for a new American century. 00:07:59.477 --> 00:08:01.937 That's a whole nother story, but that was based on. 00:08:02.747 --> 00:08:08.477 You know, two lies that Saddam was a bad guy that just came outta 00:08:08.477 --> 00:08:12.197 nowhere and we absolutely did not create, and now we have to end him. 00:08:12.407 --> 00:08:15.467 And the other lie, which was he was planning to use weapons of mass 00:08:15.467 --> 00:08:17.147 destruction against, you know, whoever. 00:08:17.207 --> 00:08:21.497 And the great line from back then was, this is a fair rabbit hole 00:08:21.497 --> 00:08:23.057 when I just wanted to make a joke. 00:08:23.057 --> 00:08:27.347 But, um, um, the gray line from back then was when George tenant 00:08:27.347 --> 00:08:30.797 director of the CAA said to George Bush that it was a slam dunk. 00:08:31.592 --> 00:08:34.412 That they had weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam had 00:08:34.412 --> 00:08:35.492 weapons of mass destruction. 00:08:36.002 --> 00:08:37.022 A slam dunk There is. 00:08:37.022 --> 00:08:38.642 See, that's radical honesty. 00:08:38.672 --> 00:08:39.992 Did did he believe that? 00:08:39.992 --> 00:08:41.432 I think he maybe believed that. 00:08:42.122 --> 00:08:43.172 You know, like that's. 00:08:44.177 --> 00:08:44.807 That's complete. 00:08:45.047 --> 00:08:47.117 A slam dunk is complete certainty. 00:08:47.597 --> 00:08:47.717 Yeah. 00:08:47.722 --> 00:08:53.087 And I, and I, when I was younger, had a lot more slam dunks than I do at 45 now. 00:08:53.087 --> 00:08:56.447 I'm not so sure there's a lot more layups and three point shots than, 00:08:56.837 --> 00:09:00.587 yeah, and there's a, and there's a lot more just room for humility 00:09:00.587 --> 00:09:03.767 and uncertainty generally, and to admit the limits of our knowledge. 00:09:04.097 --> 00:09:08.507 And I find myself saying things and then saying even in texts and whatever, 00:09:08.507 --> 00:09:13.337 and then saying, but I could be wrong, of course, but I never used to say. 00:09:13.697 --> 00:09:15.167 But I could be wrong also. 00:09:15.557 --> 00:09:16.307 Yeah, that's right. 00:09:16.367 --> 00:09:17.478 Also, my understanding is. 00:09:18.197 --> 00:09:22.937 That, uh, you know, if you actually wanted to run an intelligence agency properly, 00:09:23.357 --> 00:09:25.877 you don't offer assessments like that. 00:09:26.237 --> 00:09:30.377 You say, here's the available evidence, here's how we feel about this source, 00:09:30.377 --> 00:09:32.027 here's how we feel about that source. 00:09:32.417 --> 00:09:35.537 And you know, we put like a 70%. 00:09:35.797 --> 00:09:39.277 You know, confidence on this, you, you, you meant to express relative confidence. 00:09:39.282 --> 00:09:42.042 They, they worked out what outcome they wanted, then they, then they created 00:09:42.042 --> 00:09:44.767 the, went backwards from there, worked backwards with the truth from there. 00:09:44.917 --> 00:09:46.717 It's a good example of the big lie. 00:09:46.717 --> 00:09:51.697 There's, and then obviously the big lie has become, you know, like the 00:09:51.697 --> 00:09:57.097 operating system of someone like Donald Trump for a good over a decade. 00:09:57.217 --> 00:10:01.627 Well, and he's obviously the biggest liar around, but what empowered him? 00:10:02.732 --> 00:10:08.672 Partly it was this lack of honesty from key American institutions and 00:10:08.822 --> 00:10:15.842 C-N-N-N-B-C, Fox News, who all and New York Times, who all queued up behind 00:10:15.992 --> 00:10:19.412 the, uh, the, you know, president and the White House to, uh, and the 00:10:19.412 --> 00:10:22.292 State Department and the Pentagon and all the rest of them to say Yep. 00:10:22.485 --> 00:10:25.575 The intelligence checks out, we're satisfied. 00:10:25.695 --> 00:10:29.475 Oh, so you're drawing a link from Iraq War to To Donald Trump. 00:10:29.505 --> 00:10:34.305 So C-N-N-N-B-C, Fox News, New York Times, all the rest, Washington Post 00:10:34.395 --> 00:10:36.105 get caught with their pants down. 00:10:36.165 --> 00:10:37.665 So that's where fake news comes from. 00:10:37.665 --> 00:10:38.865 That's where fake news comes from. 00:10:39.015 --> 00:10:43.185 So you've got all these veterans coming home from the, from the very 00:10:43.185 --> 00:10:45.970 beginning, that first wave of veterans to come back from Iraq were like. 00:10:46.965 --> 00:10:48.075 Something's up. 00:10:48.105 --> 00:10:49.605 We weren't told the truth. 00:10:50.085 --> 00:10:52.635 And remember that conflict then goes on for another. 00:10:53.025 --> 00:10:55.485 That occupation then goes on for another 10, 15 years. 00:10:55.485 --> 00:10:59.445 Then you had the disaster in Syria still unfolding and the. 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:06.090 Veterans were, came back, not just poisoned by the environment 00:11:06.090 --> 00:11:10.410 and traumatized and all that, all the usual stuff, but radicalized 00:11:11.310 --> 00:11:13.170 by this feeling of betrayal. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.330 But why do they want someone who's gonna lie more? 00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:18.240 Wouldn't you want someone who's gonna bring some radical honesty? 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.930 Oh, well, yes, but the one semit truth he told was fake news. 00:11:22.545 --> 00:11:26.775 Right, so he could credibly claim that all these outlets were lying to the 00:11:26.775 --> 00:11:30.705 American people because yeah, they were caught red-handed doing, doing just that. 00:11:30.705 --> 00:11:33.435 But then, but then they got, so then the American people got the biggest 00:11:33.435 --> 00:11:34.995 liar they've ever had as president. 00:11:34.995 --> 00:11:35.145 Correct. 00:11:35.325 --> 00:11:38.780 So you then voted him out, then had four years to reflect on it. 00:11:39.450 --> 00:11:40.680 And then voted him back in. 00:11:41.250 --> 00:11:41.700 Yes. 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:45.660 So this is a very considered decision by the American people at this point that 00:11:45.660 --> 00:11:47.850 they want the biggest possible liar. 00:11:48.090 --> 00:11:48.420 Yeah. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.560 I, I dunno if it's a, I dunno if you'd call it a considered decision based on 00:11:52.560 --> 00:11:54.540 all the available evidence and certainly. 00:11:55.445 --> 00:11:57.935 People willing to overlook things. 00:11:58.055 --> 00:12:01.655 Let's say people that were committed to voting a certain way, were willing to 00:12:01.655 --> 00:12:05.300 kind of hold their noses or turn their, yeah, look, I don't want to get my point. 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:07.925 I don't want this to be a podcast where we talk about Donald Trump 00:12:07.925 --> 00:12:10.895 because it's not our strong suit and I don't think we should do much of it. 00:12:10.895 --> 00:12:15.635 But it is a point not at the opposite end of the spectrum to radical honesty. 00:12:15.665 --> 00:12:16.325 Exactly. 00:12:16.415 --> 00:12:18.815 I would is someone who lies all the time. 00:12:18.845 --> 00:12:19.145 Correct. 00:12:19.145 --> 00:12:19.146 Correct. 00:12:19.235 --> 00:12:20.585 But I, and also, and also. 00:12:20.990 --> 00:12:24.530 Crucially psychologically feels zero shame about it. 00:12:24.530 --> 00:12:24.920 None. 00:12:25.130 --> 00:12:27.170 Like, so you cannot shame this person. 00:12:27.170 --> 00:12:27.320 No. 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.990 Like have you ever thought about if Watergate happened under 00:12:29.990 --> 00:12:32.480 Trump, there's no way he'd lose the presidency, shrug it off. 00:12:32.510 --> 00:12:33.320 He just shrug it off. 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:34.310 Absolutely. 00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:39.410 And it's interesting that you know that it was possible back then to shame someone. 00:12:39.410 --> 00:12:39.470 Yeah. 00:12:39.470 --> 00:12:42.530 And I dunno whether Nixon necessarily felt shame personally. 00:12:42.530 --> 00:12:45.350 I certainly think he felt fear of being discovered. 00:12:45.410 --> 00:12:45.800 Yeah. 00:12:45.830 --> 00:12:48.020 But he didn't, I don't think he felt moral shame. 00:12:48.950 --> 00:12:50.120 But it is remarkable. 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:53.310 That they didn't even have to begin impeachment and he just steps down. 00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:53.520 Yeah. 00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:55.920 'cause he'd lost all of his credibility instantly. 00:12:56.040 --> 00:12:56.280 Yeah. 00:12:56.310 --> 00:12:58.260 And you know, and then Raga with the. 00:12:58.785 --> 00:13:03.165 Uh, my head tells me that, uh, you know, I was misled, but my 00:13:03.165 --> 00:13:04.965 heart tells me that it was true. 00:13:04.995 --> 00:13:05.415 You know? 00:13:05.475 --> 00:13:05.745 Yeah. 00:13:05.745 --> 00:13:09.345 And so, raga kind of invents the truthiness doctrine, which then 00:13:09.345 --> 00:13:13.035 goes on to become a key feature of, uh, presidential politics. 00:13:13.575 --> 00:13:16.935 That if the vibe tells me it's this, then the facts are just 00:13:16.935 --> 00:13:18.345 gonna have to fall into line. 00:13:18.765 --> 00:13:20.565 And so there's been a lack of honesty from. 00:13:21.285 --> 00:13:25.065 The entire establishment, I would say, and well, Sam, to pull it back 00:13:25.065 --> 00:13:28.545 to what's our strong suit, which is our own experience of life. 00:13:29.325 --> 00:13:32.340 Can you Well, well, what I'm pointing to is a bunch of people. 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:38.700 You know, in the, in the press and in the political class who have been telling 00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:45.690 half truths, absolute lies or, or even 90% truths, but done with, with spin 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.460 and the, it has led step by step to exactly the situation they're in now. 00:13:50.640 --> 00:13:51.525 Look at all the harm. 00:13:52.305 --> 00:13:57.075 That this semi honesty and dishonesty is causing, and the only cure 00:13:57.075 --> 00:13:59.295 for it arguably was the truth. 00:13:59.295 --> 00:14:01.785 So I agree entirely with your, yeah. 00:14:01.815 --> 00:14:05.895 Do you feel like you've, you mostly been a truthful person in your life? 00:14:05.985 --> 00:14:06.435 No. 00:14:06.495 --> 00:14:11.565 So I'm, uh, that's, or are you diplomatic to the point of not telling the truth 00:14:12.015 --> 00:14:14.175 to keep yourself outta trouble or, yeah. 00:14:14.175 --> 00:14:17.475 Well, so this is where I really wanted to go with it, to the morally problematic. 00:14:18.435 --> 00:14:24.461 Murky thing about, you know, I think the first problem is declaring Declaring what? 00:14:24.641 --> 00:14:27.971 Declaring your viewpoint with absolute confidence as 00:14:27.971 --> 00:14:30.401 though it is absolute reality. 00:14:30.401 --> 00:14:30.671 Right. 00:14:30.671 --> 00:14:31.151 So that's, that's, yeah. 00:14:31.151 --> 00:14:33.281 Well that was me up until about 10 years ago. 00:14:33.341 --> 00:14:33.791 Yeah. 00:14:35.081 --> 00:14:36.806 And I think I'm much more circumspect now. 00:14:37.304 --> 00:14:40.904 but people who know me well could tell you, but we've heard Sam 00:14:40.904 --> 00:14:44.534 declare all sorts of things with like enormous confidence, and that's true. 00:14:44.741 --> 00:14:49.031 But I do, if you, you know, if you listen to my words carefully, um, there's 00:14:49.031 --> 00:14:55.541 usually some conditions being placed on statements, you know, somewhere. 00:14:55.541 --> 00:15:00.821 I try to formulate things carefully and I tried to be honest about 00:15:00.821 --> 00:15:04.511 my level of confidence in the information that I have and. 00:15:05.486 --> 00:15:09.056 I've read the Wikipedia article on cognitive biases a bunch of times 00:15:09.056 --> 00:15:13.436 now, and I try to remain conscious of those, and it's a long list of 00:15:13.436 --> 00:15:16.436 stuff, so it's hard to keep so you don't go out of your way to lie. 00:15:17.696 --> 00:15:19.466 I can't remember the last time. 00:15:20.396 --> 00:15:21.386 Yeah, it's been a while. 00:15:21.986 --> 00:15:25.226 So, but do you like, so that's after years of therapy. 00:15:25.226 --> 00:15:27.837 See, this is what, that it's gotten easier to be truthful what happens, 00:15:27.911 --> 00:15:29.396 but it's taken a long, long time. 00:15:29.546 --> 00:15:32.936 What happened to me to introduce some other concepts? 00:15:32.966 --> 00:15:33.086 Mm. 00:15:33.146 --> 00:15:33.656 Is. 00:15:33.897 --> 00:15:38.517 in my addiction recovery circles, they talk about rigorous honesty. 00:15:38.517 --> 00:15:39.267 Rigorous honesty. 00:15:39.267 --> 00:15:39.747 I like this idea. 00:15:39.747 --> 00:15:40.347 So rigorous. 00:15:40.347 --> 00:15:43.767 Honesty is basically being honest all the time, even when 00:15:43.767 --> 00:15:45.177 it's not to your advantage. 00:15:45.387 --> 00:15:48.327 And that made me stop stealing from Woolworths and made 00:15:48.327 --> 00:15:49.707 me stop stealing full stop. 00:15:50.427 --> 00:15:52.767 It made me stop telling little white lies. 00:15:52.797 --> 00:15:56.397 It made me like I recently just, you know, told the truth to Vic 00:15:56.397 --> 00:15:59.397 Rhodes and lost my truck license 'cause I've got bipolar disorder. 00:15:59.427 --> 00:15:59.727 Yeah. 00:15:59.937 --> 00:16:02.787 So that kind of stuff where I knew it wasn't to my advantage, 00:16:02.787 --> 00:16:06.117 but the question was, do you have a preexisting medical condition? 00:16:06.447 --> 00:16:08.367 I told the truth and it cost me. 00:16:08.457 --> 00:16:14.307 Now that's rigorous honesty, but when I did, uh, my step work with the sponsor, 00:16:14.877 --> 00:16:17.457 he, he came back and said, your problem. 00:16:17.832 --> 00:16:18.942 Is not lying. 00:16:19.002 --> 00:16:20.262 You don't lie. 00:16:20.652 --> 00:16:24.162 But your problem is brutal honesty, which is another form of honesty 00:16:24.162 --> 00:16:25.872 where you hurt people with honesty. 00:16:26.292 --> 00:16:26.442 Yeah. 00:16:26.442 --> 00:16:28.872 And I think I've used, that's what I mean, using it as a sword. 00:16:28.872 --> 00:16:30.762 I think I used brutal honesty. 00:16:30.767 --> 00:16:30.907 Mm-hmm. 00:16:31.167 --> 00:16:35.082 To hurt people, so I had to stop doing that. 00:16:35.112 --> 00:16:35.202 Yes. 00:16:35.202 --> 00:16:38.652 As part of my addiction recovery, I had to become a kinder person. 00:16:38.652 --> 00:16:38.712 Yeah. 00:16:38.742 --> 00:16:44.142 And that means more diplomacy, less just bluntly telling people what you think. 00:16:44.147 --> 00:16:44.307 Agree. 00:16:45.297 --> 00:16:45.597 Yeah. 00:16:45.597 --> 00:16:50.787 And so, so in order, in order to practice honesty properly, you 00:16:50.787 --> 00:16:52.737 can't do it for the first principle. 00:16:52.737 --> 00:16:55.047 You can't do it only when it suits you, right? 00:16:55.047 --> 00:16:58.377 And you can't do it in the manner that suits you the best. 00:16:58.797 --> 00:17:04.047 And part of the honesty is to admit the limits of your knowledge and to admit 00:17:04.047 --> 00:17:09.597 the limits of your certainty, but also to be as careful with yourself as possible. 00:17:09.597 --> 00:17:09.987 And as like. 00:17:10.692 --> 00:17:16.272 Rigorously self honest as you can and try to, and this is something that 00:17:16.332 --> 00:17:17.952 I've had to work extremely hard on. 00:17:18.882 --> 00:17:25.872 Think hard about what, okay, am I actually doing anyone a favor if 00:17:25.872 --> 00:17:28.002 I express this now in this manner? 00:17:28.092 --> 00:17:33.702 And am I doing it purely in service to the highest principle or what's my agenda? 00:17:33.882 --> 00:17:34.182 Right? 00:17:34.182 --> 00:17:35.592 So start with the assumption. 00:17:36.162 --> 00:17:38.952 You may have an unconscious motive. 00:17:39.567 --> 00:17:43.407 For deciding to tell the truth in the moment that you do and you kind of gotta 00:17:43.407 --> 00:17:47.081 think hard about what that motive might be and would, is it a motive I would 00:17:47.081 --> 00:17:49.331 actually be proud of and would stand by? 00:17:49.361 --> 00:17:49.631 Yeah. 00:17:49.631 --> 00:17:52.511 I think one of your weaknesses, Sam, is that you have, you do 00:17:52.511 --> 00:17:54.281 have a pretty big ego about Yes. 00:17:54.281 --> 00:17:55.271 Knowing everything. 00:17:55.271 --> 00:17:55.751 Yes. 00:17:56.396 --> 00:18:01.286 And you will do incredible amounts of research about some topic in the news 00:18:01.286 --> 00:18:03.116 and then become a subject matter expert. 00:18:03.116 --> 00:18:05.216 And then it's like, you know, everything. 00:18:05.816 --> 00:18:06.026 Yeah. 00:18:06.056 --> 00:18:10.586 Um, and that's, you know, like we all have our weaknesses and I think 00:18:10.586 --> 00:18:15.956 that's one of yours is that you're not prone to say a simple, I don't know. 00:18:16.526 --> 00:18:16.796 Yeah. 00:18:16.796 --> 00:18:18.296 And you always will have an answer. 00:18:18.566 --> 00:18:18.956 Do you know what? 00:18:18.956 --> 00:18:21.566 I've done it more often though, and recently. 00:18:21.566 --> 00:18:22.226 I don't know man. 00:18:22.286 --> 00:18:22.676 I think I. 00:18:23.396 --> 00:18:25.046 Came to the decision in therapy? 00:18:25.766 --> 00:18:27.101 Uh, I don't know. 00:18:27.116 --> 00:18:27.266 Yeah. 00:18:27.266 --> 00:18:30.236 Four or five years ago I was like, okay, I need to start 00:18:30.236 --> 00:18:31.916 saying, I don't know, more often. 00:18:32.546 --> 00:18:39.086 And, and not, and not because, uh, yeah, not in, not even for a moral reason so 00:18:39.086 --> 00:18:44.066 much as just set, set this burden down. 00:18:44.276 --> 00:18:47.966 Like you don't need to understand everything and. 00:18:48.341 --> 00:18:52.661 I don't need to pursue every single curiosity that comes up and 00:18:53.471 --> 00:18:54.941 I don't need to have an answer. 00:18:54.941 --> 00:18:59.411 And even though on a lot of topics, there will be something available to me 00:19:00.251 --> 00:19:03.521 that I've stored away and, hey, look, here's something that came out of the 00:19:03.521 --> 00:19:05.771 fact file when that this topic came up. 00:19:05.771 --> 00:19:06.881 But here's the problem. 00:19:07.631 --> 00:19:09.821 It's, it's Where's me out? 00:19:10.121 --> 00:19:10.601 Right? 00:19:10.661 --> 00:19:11.801 And why? 00:19:12.182 --> 00:19:13.772 Would I want to do this? 00:19:14.312 --> 00:19:17.462 So I thought it was just a, I thought it was just a simple 00:19:17.462 --> 00:19:19.502 matter of ego and vanity. 00:19:19.652 --> 00:19:19.892 Right? 00:19:19.892 --> 00:19:23.312 That's definitely in there, but also I. 00:19:24.392 --> 00:19:26.972 I kind of got a little bit of people pleasing going on. 00:19:26.972 --> 00:19:29.462 I was about to say, you're trying to be helpful. 00:19:29.522 --> 00:19:31.022 I think I'm trying to be helpful too often. 00:19:31.022 --> 00:19:32.012 Like you are very, yeah. 00:19:32.012 --> 00:19:35.612 I find you're a good person to talk to about stuff in the news because you have 00:19:35.612 --> 00:19:38.372 a, a very complex understanding of it. 00:19:38.372 --> 00:19:42.092 So you talk to me in a very reasoned way and you're trying to be helpful 00:19:42.092 --> 00:19:43.502 and I'm not having to dig at you. 00:19:43.507 --> 00:19:43.517 No. 00:19:44.297 --> 00:19:48.737 It's just at some point in your life, you became one of these people who thinks they 00:19:48.917 --> 00:19:50.837 could possibly kind of know everything. 00:19:51.137 --> 00:19:52.097 Yeah, that's true. 00:19:52.097 --> 00:19:57.321 But, but also that I had a, that I had a desire to like assist 00:19:57.801 --> 00:19:59.091 that I wanted to be of service. 00:19:59.091 --> 00:19:59.301 Right? 00:19:59.421 --> 00:19:59.661 Yeah. 00:19:59.661 --> 00:20:03.321 So I, so I discovered like after being fairly selfish in my twenties 00:20:03.621 --> 00:20:08.151 and, uh, early thirties, that I thought, okay, I'm having kids. 00:20:08.391 --> 00:20:10.221 I'm gonna, I'm becoming a teacher. 00:20:10.251 --> 00:20:10.581 Like. 00:20:11.256 --> 00:20:11.616 Okay. 00:20:11.916 --> 00:20:12.786 Suddenly. 00:20:13.581 --> 00:20:16.401 The vocation is service rather than service. 00:20:16.401 --> 00:20:19.761 But maybe you would be quite a good like ministerial advisor. 00:20:19.821 --> 00:20:23.541 Yeah, probably like if they made you, if, if you were working for the minister 00:20:23.541 --> 00:20:26.781 for something and you had to become the expert on what they were the minister for. 00:20:26.781 --> 00:20:27.261 Totally. 00:20:27.261 --> 00:20:30.801 I think my dream job would be I don't actually have to make the decision. 00:20:31.011 --> 00:20:31.641 Yeah. 00:20:33.351 --> 00:20:33.801 Yeah. 00:20:34.251 --> 00:20:37.131 I think I'm much more interested in what goes into the decision 00:20:37.131 --> 00:20:38.721 than actually making the decision. 00:20:39.201 --> 00:20:42.801 I don't have that much interest in power, but I do have an interest. 00:20:43.326 --> 00:20:44.886 In how things work. 00:20:44.916 --> 00:20:47.946 And so just to give you a more mundane example, if a friend calls up and they're 00:20:47.946 --> 00:20:52.086 like, ah, fuck, I'm trying to figure out how to solve this little sort of practical 00:20:52.086 --> 00:20:56.916 problem or whatever, my first instinct is to try and jump in and workshop it and 00:20:56.916 --> 00:20:58.746 like come up with ideas and all of that. 00:20:59.076 --> 00:21:02.286 But it's also acceptable, and I've done this a few times with computer 00:21:02.286 --> 00:21:04.716 problems and people have asked me and I'm like, I'm actually not. 00:21:05.376 --> 00:21:09.876 I'm not the level of boffin I once was, I'm just gonna say don't know on this one. 00:21:10.506 --> 00:21:13.116 And it came as such a relief the first few times I did it. 00:21:13.626 --> 00:21:16.626 And then I started doing it more often in the classroom and just 00:21:16.626 --> 00:21:18.966 saying, I don't know, or I'm not sure. 00:21:19.176 --> 00:21:19.596 Yeah. 00:21:19.626 --> 00:21:20.556 What a good question. 00:21:20.556 --> 00:21:23.106 That does sound like people pleasing now you're putting it like that. 00:21:23.136 --> 00:21:23.496 Yeah. 00:21:23.766 --> 00:21:27.486 And you know like, oh, you wanna talk about X, Y, or Z. 00:21:28.356 --> 00:21:28.776 Great. 00:21:29.496 --> 00:21:31.296 I also want to talk about that. 00:21:31.296 --> 00:21:31.481 So like. 00:21:32.181 --> 00:21:36.411 I, when people have a passion or a, you know, curiosity about something, I'm drawn 00:21:36.411 --> 00:21:41.841 to that, but also I want to validate their interests and so what lies beneath that? 00:21:41.841 --> 00:21:42.261 Right? 00:21:42.801 --> 00:21:47.931 I think this is, this is a handy skillset when it comes to talking to strangers. 00:21:47.931 --> 00:21:51.771 Well, sometimes it is, and meeting new people and it can be good for. 00:21:52.281 --> 00:21:55.821 You know, I can play a good role in teams sometimes build a little morale. 00:21:55.821 --> 00:21:59.301 And so often, uh, I can be a good sounding board sometimes, 00:22:00.141 --> 00:22:01.731 but what lies beneath all this? 00:22:01.731 --> 00:22:07.161 You know, and it's like when I, I got in touch with, uh, this more recently, 00:22:07.191 --> 00:22:09.626 which is when I was a kid, I was good at. 00:22:10.088 --> 00:22:12.728 cultivating the attention of adults. 00:22:13.208 --> 00:22:13.718 Alright? 00:22:14.588 --> 00:22:20.618 And one of the ways you do that is to, you know, try and seem like a good kid. 00:22:20.858 --> 00:22:24.668 Um, and you know, I learned that. 00:22:25.313 --> 00:22:30.653 Adults seem to like smart kids and they seem to like, 00:22:32.693 --> 00:22:36.773 there were parts of it I, you know, that were, didn't, didn't suit me as much like, 00:22:36.773 --> 00:22:40.733 oh, adults like it when I'm responsible and lead the other children in the right 00:22:40.733 --> 00:22:42.593 sort of way, which I didn't always do. 00:22:42.743 --> 00:22:45.653 Um, in fact, I got him into mischief a lot. 00:22:46.493 --> 00:22:51.923 I was actually quite a troublemaker and I, nonetheless, I had a 00:22:51.923 --> 00:22:53.903 strength, which was to cultivate. 00:22:54.593 --> 00:22:54.893 You know? 00:22:54.893 --> 00:22:55.073 Yeah. 00:22:55.073 --> 00:23:02.093 The tension and the interest and the, the patronage of adults because in the 00:23:02.093 --> 00:23:07.883 boarding school environment, you kind of had to try and attract and, you 00:23:07.883 --> 00:23:14.273 know, find the sources of nurturing and whether it was, you know, friendships 00:23:14.273 --> 00:23:18.563 with other students or, you know, figuring out which adults, you know, 00:23:18.623 --> 00:23:21.413 uh, you could depend on for whatever. 00:23:21.953 --> 00:23:22.553 And. 00:23:23.118 --> 00:23:26.868 My parents were attentive when I was at home, but I wasn't always there. 00:23:27.294 --> 00:23:31.143 and then this led to an unexamined kind of habit that 00:23:31.863 --> 00:23:34.533 got, you know, got outta control. 00:23:34.743 --> 00:23:38.493 And then when I had kids, uh, it took ages to kind of work through all 00:23:38.493 --> 00:23:41.563 the issues that that, that came up. 00:23:41.668 --> 00:23:44.488 When you've got, when you're looking at a 5-year-old and going, oh yeah. 00:23:44.893 --> 00:23:47.593 I was just a little bit older than you when I went off to boarding school. 00:23:47.593 --> 00:23:57.763 So intense feelings of, uh, of deprivation and of being let down by the care, by 00:23:57.763 --> 00:24:01.033 the key caregivers and that they were. 00:24:01.543 --> 00:24:05.023 Their care was often there and was usually good when it was 00:24:05.023 --> 00:24:06.667 there, but was inconsistent. 00:24:06.967 --> 00:24:13.927 I couldn't just access it when and where I wanted to, so I didn't feel I had control, 00:24:14.887 --> 00:24:18.337 uh, or a reliable source of care in life. 00:24:18.427 --> 00:24:21.547 So right, right into my adulthood became. 00:24:22.537 --> 00:24:25.867 Good at attractor men, attracting mentors and caregivers. 00:24:26.137 --> 00:24:30.547 But unfortunately this leads to problems in relationships because 00:24:31.087 --> 00:24:34.417 romantic relationships, because you're gonna be expecting too much of people. 00:24:34.957 --> 00:24:39.095 And it also meant that I was untruthful a lot of the time. 00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:40.010 Is there, yeah. 00:24:40.235 --> 00:24:43.595 Is there examples of re uh, radical honesty in your 00:24:43.595 --> 00:24:45.695 romantic relationship history? 00:24:46.115 --> 00:24:48.605 Like either receiving or giving Oh, yeah. 00:24:48.605 --> 00:24:49.445 Some hard truths. 00:24:49.445 --> 00:24:50.730 Can you think of any off the top of your head? 00:24:51.875 --> 00:24:52.625 Absolutely. 00:24:52.865 --> 00:24:59.498 Every single, every single partner I ever had, I think gave me fairly 00:24:59.498 --> 00:25:05.710 balanced and kind assessments, which were None of your A DHD? 00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:07.270 Yep, yep. 00:25:07.660 --> 00:25:12.100 Or my occasional stunning selfishness. 00:25:12.415 --> 00:25:12.765 Right. 00:25:12.985 --> 00:25:16.780 But also I remember you mentioned on the previous episodes of. 00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:22.780 A, a partner saying to you, there is something fucking wrong with you. 00:25:22.840 --> 00:25:23.410 Yes. 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.240 Go and do something about it. 00:25:25.780 --> 00:25:25.781 Yeah. 00:25:26.290 --> 00:25:26.470 Yeah. 00:25:26.620 --> 00:25:27.760 That's pretty, that's radical. 00:25:28.090 --> 00:25:28.600 You know what? 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:29.325 That's radical honesty. 00:25:29.325 --> 00:25:31.000 That's a perfect example of what I mean. 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.450 I don't know about Brad, the American guy, but what I mean is. 00:25:35.050 --> 00:25:36.850 There is something fucking wrong with you. 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.970 Go and do something about it is radical honesty to me. 00:25:40.030 --> 00:25:40.570 It really is. 00:25:40.570 --> 00:25:43.390 And I think it's more radical honesty than rigorous honesty 00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:44.680 is a bit more soft spoken. 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:44.770 Sure. 00:25:44.770 --> 00:25:47.260 Radical is in your face, you know? 00:25:47.410 --> 00:25:47.890 That's right. 00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:51.760 And so there were some times when I thought I did the thing that you, you 00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:55.270 know, you are taking the piss outta yourself earlier with like, uh, hey 00:25:55.270 --> 00:25:58.510 bro, I'm just an ambassador for the truth or for reality or whatever. 00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:00.190 I did a lot of that too. 00:26:00.610 --> 00:26:01.930 And so. 00:26:02.830 --> 00:26:05.530 I'll be the, so I just wanna say this, I just wanna be real 00:26:05.530 --> 00:26:06.610 straightforward with this. 00:26:06.993 --> 00:26:16.203 I used the truth strategically for a long time and I used, but I'm only 00:26:16.203 --> 00:26:19.953 telling the truth as a defense, um, when I probably should have admitted. 00:26:20.973 --> 00:26:24.933 Oh, I don't know why I decided to say that if I'm honest. 00:26:25.023 --> 00:26:27.453 I feel like maybe my motives weren't good, right? 00:26:27.843 --> 00:26:33.933 And I was good at withholding it and denying, defending, delaying 00:26:33.933 --> 00:26:35.403 obfuscating any sort of attempts. 00:26:35.908 --> 00:26:38.218 By well-meaning people to hold me accountable. 00:26:38.218 --> 00:26:40.018 I'm just like, no. 00:26:40.738 --> 00:26:44.938 Took me years to realize, oh, I found it almost impossible for years just to go. 00:26:45.208 --> 00:26:45.958 Yeah, you're right. 00:26:47.218 --> 00:26:51.658 And I'm sorry when presented with the evidence of, of, you know, me 00:26:51.658 --> 00:26:52.918 hurting other people's feelings. 00:26:53.278 --> 00:26:53.488 Yeah. 00:26:53.488 --> 00:26:56.608 It's hard to find that, to accept that you've done the wrong thing. 00:26:56.608 --> 00:26:57.628 Isn't it so hard? 00:26:57.688 --> 00:27:03.415 Because I believed, well, I couldn't understand for the longest time, People 00:27:03.415 --> 00:27:09.032 who were just, that I observed, including partners and friends who were like, just 00:27:09.032 --> 00:27:10.772 capable of going, oh yeah, fair enough. 00:27:11.252 --> 00:27:12.302 You know, good call. 00:27:12.392 --> 00:27:12.632 Yeah. 00:27:12.632 --> 00:27:13.352 Fair cop. 00:27:13.412 --> 00:27:17.072 And I just, I, I really wanted to be able to do that. 00:27:17.072 --> 00:27:20.942 And I respected that in people, but it took years of therapy to, to learn 00:27:20.942 --> 00:27:25.592 why I had a real big problem with doing it, which is that I believed. 00:27:26.115 --> 00:27:31.665 The exact wrong thing that if I admit that this is true and that I did hurt 00:27:31.665 --> 00:27:35.055 your feelings, whether I meant to or not, and that it was not the right 00:27:35.055 --> 00:27:38.235 thing to do, and that I actually care more about you and your feelings 00:27:38.235 --> 00:27:40.395 than I do about being right, right? 00:27:40.965 --> 00:27:42.975 I thought, no, no, no, no, no. 00:27:43.335 --> 00:27:44.895 If I admit doing the wrong thing. 00:27:46.020 --> 00:27:50.970 I could not be loved if my, Ooh, that, if my shame was revealed. 00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:51.510 That's good. 00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:54.150 That's a very therapy thing to realize, isn't it? 00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:54.240 Mm-hmm. 00:27:54.395 --> 00:27:54.396 Yeah. 00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:57.360 Basically, I have to be perfect in order to be loved. 00:27:57.630 --> 00:27:58.380 Mm-hmm. 00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:01.710 Yeah, I think I can relate to that a bit, which means you have to put on a 00:28:01.710 --> 00:28:10.170 front all the time, and it's very tiring and it makes people feel insane because. 00:28:10.405 --> 00:28:11.605 It's like, what? 00:28:11.755 --> 00:28:15.685 But you, no, I'm not saying you're the worst person in the world, 00:28:16.495 --> 00:28:17.725 but just that thing you did. 00:28:17.755 --> 00:28:19.255 I found it inconsiderate. 00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:20.950 It hurt my feelings. 00:28:21.070 --> 00:28:24.970 It's interesting you talk about extreme, extreme selfishness. 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:28.060 'cause I, I almost get, 'cause I'm offering you an out by saying 00:28:28.060 --> 00:28:31.660 you've got pretty extreme A DHD or, or DHD Oh, of course. 00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:34.450 But I, I don't, I don't want, but that's no excuse for selfishness. 00:28:34.450 --> 00:28:36.970 No, you can be a very unselfish A DHD person. 00:28:37.030 --> 00:28:37.570 Well, that's right. 00:28:37.570 --> 00:28:39.730 And I also had every single one of those partners. 00:28:40.225 --> 00:28:42.325 Also say, which is why I had, I knew I could. 00:28:42.835 --> 00:28:44.845 I knew in my heart of hearts that I had to take their words 00:28:44.845 --> 00:28:47.905 seriously and on on face value. 00:28:48.115 --> 00:28:54.415 All of them also said, you are capable of such kindness and generosity, and it's 00:28:54.415 --> 00:29:00.445 so clear that you do have a good heart underneath it all, which is why it's 00:29:00.475 --> 00:29:02.845 so puzzling that these things happen. 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:06.760 All of them said, look, there's gotta be good reasons, but there's, 00:29:06.850 --> 00:29:10.480 you know, there's stuff you've gotta work through here because you are a 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.130 good person at the end of the day. 00:29:12.340 --> 00:29:14.200 But there's just a lot of stuff that's in the way. 00:29:14.260 --> 00:29:17.979 And, one of the things that really helped to unlock it and get things 00:29:17.979 --> 00:29:23.829 moving forward was just being able to go, oh, no, no, no, no. 00:29:24.009 --> 00:29:28.599 My parents made mistakes and I still have good thoughts about them. 00:29:29.199 --> 00:29:29.859 Um. 00:29:30.384 --> 00:29:33.354 I've made mistakes as a parent, but my kids still love me. 00:29:33.414 --> 00:29:33.804 Mm-hmm. 00:29:34.734 --> 00:29:36.504 So it's okay for me to make mistakes. 00:29:36.564 --> 00:29:37.014 Yeah. 00:29:37.074 --> 00:29:41.064 It's okay for me to be grumpy sometimes, but do you know what? 00:29:41.754 --> 00:29:46.794 I also don't want to disavow the effect of anything I've done on other people 00:29:46.974 --> 00:29:48.954 because I know how much that hurts. 00:29:49.074 --> 00:29:54.024 I've been on the receiving end of it too, and the absolute hypocrisy. 00:29:54.215 --> 00:29:57.425 that I lived in for a number of years of like, it's not fair. 00:29:57.755 --> 00:29:59.645 You know, my feelings aren't getting acknowledged. 00:29:59.645 --> 00:30:03.365 And it's like, well, but were you acknowledging the feelings of 00:30:03.365 --> 00:30:05.105 others as rigorously as you could? 00:30:05.495 --> 00:30:05.945 You know? 00:30:06.005 --> 00:30:11.580 So now, now where I'm at is I cannot re, I do not deny the 00:30:11.580 --> 00:30:13.230 harms I've caused in the past. 00:30:13.650 --> 00:30:14.340 I wonder if I'm. 00:30:14.850 --> 00:30:19.200 As capable of being honest about them, the ones in the present. 00:30:19.405 --> 00:30:20.790 I, I, I think so. 00:30:21.067 --> 00:30:24.517 and I no longer fear being rejected by friends, family, et 00:30:24.517 --> 00:30:26.407 cetera, for admitting the truth. 00:30:26.407 --> 00:30:29.167 I actually feel now that I've done it a bunch of times. 00:30:29.167 --> 00:30:32.022 I sent my dad a text the other day, saying I just remembered. 00:30:32.669 --> 00:30:36.959 This time that I was just like, really rude to you and you didn't deserve it. 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:41.369 And I, I was misinterpreting your actions and I was seeing everything 00:30:41.369 --> 00:30:46.261 through like a frame of suspicion and resentment and I couldn't just see the 00:30:46.261 --> 00:30:48.361 simple kindness in what you were doing. 00:30:49.501 --> 00:30:51.781 And, you know, I threw it in your face and like, I'm really sorry 00:30:51.781 --> 00:30:53.911 and I just want you to know that. 00:30:55.201 --> 00:30:57.031 That was something I didn't understand. 00:30:57.031 --> 00:30:58.771 At the time, I didn't know what I was doing. 00:30:58.771 --> 00:31:00.121 I didn't know why I was doing it. 00:31:00.121 --> 00:31:03.811 I didn't know how to stop, and now I do. 00:31:04.261 --> 00:31:07.351 Now I've learned that trauma has all these effects. 00:31:07.441 --> 00:31:09.571 It can distort your perception of reality. 00:31:10.291 --> 00:31:16.801 And I mean, yeah, you're a good advertisement for a few thorough years. 00:31:17.476 --> 00:31:18.616 Thorough therapy. 00:31:19.096 --> 00:31:19.246 Mm-hmm. 00:31:19.486 --> 00:31:21.946 Only because you're changing your behavior. 00:31:22.096 --> 00:31:22.816 It's worked. 00:31:22.876 --> 00:31:27.376 Like if you are, if you are sending a text to your dad, that's a very healing Yeah. 00:31:27.406 --> 00:31:31.066 Kind words after all these years and everything you've been through together. 00:31:31.186 --> 00:31:31.396 Yeah. 00:31:31.636 --> 00:31:35.356 Like, you know, that's really, I mean, my dad died over 20 years ago. 00:31:35.356 --> 00:31:36.701 I wish I could, there's so many things. 00:31:36.701 --> 00:31:37.181 Conversation. 00:31:37.371 --> 00:31:37.661 Yeah. 00:31:37.666 --> 00:31:37.876 Yeah. 00:31:37.876 --> 00:31:39.316 So many things I could have said. 00:31:39.766 --> 00:31:39.826 Yeah. 00:31:40.100 --> 00:31:43.910 some of which have occurred to you since then, and some of which you 00:31:43.910 --> 00:31:45.350 were probably aware of at the time. 00:31:45.830 --> 00:31:50.720 But in terms of partners hitting me with some radical honesty, I, I'm, I don't 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:52.010 have a great long term memory, but. 00:31:52.805 --> 00:31:55.295 I remember it was only within the last couple of years. 00:31:55.295 --> 00:32:00.425 I had one woman I was dating briefly and it wasn't probably gonna work out 00:32:00.425 --> 00:32:04.505 like she was like a hardcore Marxist and Oh yeah, I think I remember. 00:32:04.505 --> 00:32:08.825 And it, it had all these reasons why there was a lot of power dynamics going 00:32:08.825 --> 00:32:13.655 on, but in this power dynamic, it's at one point she said, she looked at 00:32:13.655 --> 00:32:17.555 me and she said, you know, you've got this big frame of a body and you could 00:32:17.555 --> 00:32:19.655 be an Adonis, but you've got this. 00:32:20.315 --> 00:32:21.125 Dad bod. 00:32:21.455 --> 00:32:22.175 Oh man, I remember. 00:32:22.175 --> 00:32:24.515 And I'm just not attracted to your dad bod. 00:32:24.545 --> 00:32:24.635 Oh my. 00:32:24.635 --> 00:32:26.885 And then that, that was radical honesty. 00:32:26.945 --> 00:32:27.395 Shit. 00:32:27.425 --> 00:32:28.775 That's brutal honesty. 00:32:28.775 --> 00:32:29.720 But it fucked you up though. 00:32:30.455 --> 00:32:33.515 Yeah, I, I went on a keto diet and lost nine kilos. 00:32:33.725 --> 00:32:33.755 Oh. 00:32:33.905 --> 00:32:36.725 Which is, and it, but it fucked me up psychologically. 00:32:36.725 --> 00:32:36.935 Yeah. 00:32:36.965 --> 00:32:39.965 Like, and emotionally it stayed with me for a long time. 00:32:39.965 --> 00:32:42.455 Well, I know that because you brought it up a bunch of times. 00:32:42.515 --> 00:32:42.935 Yeah. 00:32:42.935 --> 00:32:43.650 And I could tell it was bothered. 00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:45.305 Well, I do have a dad bod Sam. 00:32:45.305 --> 00:32:45.455 Yeah. 00:32:45.455 --> 00:32:47.765 It's just that some women don't care. 00:32:47.915 --> 00:32:48.335 Some don't. 00:32:48.335 --> 00:32:49.385 And I don't care. 00:32:49.385 --> 00:32:49.395 Mm. 00:32:49.395 --> 00:32:53.315 It's just this woman had a cruel streak, but like. 00:32:54.650 --> 00:32:58.190 So many women would've thought that, but never said it. 00:32:58.280 --> 00:32:58.820 It's true. 00:32:59.330 --> 00:33:01.430 So who's the right, who's in the right here? 00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:05.960 So the radical honesty, if, if it was working, she would've said it. 00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:08.060 I would've gone on the keto diet. 00:33:08.060 --> 00:33:10.790 I would've started going to the gym five days a week. 00:33:10.790 --> 00:33:13.520 And within a few years, I would no longer have a dad bod. 00:33:13.520 --> 00:33:17.480 I'd have this Adonis bod that she was recommending for me, and maybe 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:21.200 me and her would stay together and I'd become a committed Marxist. 00:33:21.260 --> 00:33:22.430 And, you know. 00:33:23.030 --> 00:33:26.840 I'd be down Collins Street on the Gaza rally as we speak instead of sitting here. 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:27.140 Wow. 00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:30.230 So all of that could have happened, but instead I just did keto for 00:33:30.230 --> 00:33:33.080 a few months, lost a few kilos, and then decided, you know what? 00:33:33.590 --> 00:33:35.000 I can live with my dad bod. 00:33:35.060 --> 00:33:35.840 I'm a dad. 00:33:36.080 --> 00:33:37.760 I earned it the dad way. 00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:38.150 You know? 00:33:38.780 --> 00:33:40.565 So, but that was radical honesty. 00:33:40.665 --> 00:33:41.365 Oh, no, no. 00:33:41.365 --> 00:33:41.645 Sorry. 00:33:41.705 --> 00:33:45.710 If we're looking at radical, rigorous, and brutal, that was brutal. 00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:46.460 Yes. 00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:48.500 So what is there? 00:33:48.530 --> 00:33:48.860 Okay. 00:33:48.860 --> 00:33:49.370 Look here. 00:33:49.370 --> 00:33:49.580 Well. 00:33:51.860 --> 00:33:58.790 Uh, this is tough because I, I don't have a problem with the fact that 00:33:58.790 --> 00:34:01.700 that hurt your feelings right now. 00:34:01.760 --> 00:34:05.450 I can also say you are doing your best to try to be committed to this idea and 00:34:05.450 --> 00:34:07.640 saying, well, maybe she did do me a favor. 00:34:07.790 --> 00:34:11.630 Maybe there, it was worth saying, but like, bottom line, was that 00:34:11.630 --> 00:34:12.770 the right thing to do or not? 00:34:13.133 --> 00:34:19.283 Well, the, the, the weird part was mysteriously about a month later after we 00:34:19.283 --> 00:34:21.383 broke up, we broke up not long after that. 00:34:21.443 --> 00:34:21.833 Sure. 00:34:21.893 --> 00:34:22.943 No more contact. 00:34:22.973 --> 00:34:23.333 Yeah. 00:34:23.718 --> 00:34:27.648 some graffiti appeared near my house that said, I like your man boobs. 00:34:27.738 --> 00:34:28.638 Oh, yes. 00:34:29.163 --> 00:34:31.743 And I got a photo with this graffiti 'cause I'm like, I'll 00:34:31.743 --> 00:34:35.283 never know if it was her or not, but it was this weird coincidence 00:34:35.283 --> 00:34:37.383 if it wasn't her or back to signs. 00:34:37.383 --> 00:34:37.773 Right. 00:34:37.893 --> 00:34:42.753 Well, I'm pretty sure, I think she's capable of being someone who would feel 00:34:42.753 --> 00:34:47.223 guilty for making me feel like shit, but not want to have any actual contact 00:34:47.223 --> 00:34:49.023 because that just opens up the door. 00:34:49.023 --> 00:34:51.153 Well, and, and, and knew your movement. 00:34:51.483 --> 00:34:54.783 But the, and she knew Well, it's like right on my drive home. 00:34:54.783 --> 00:34:56.493 No, it's, it's remarkable. 00:34:56.883 --> 00:35:03.783 But in any case, I think she might well have had some moment to of reflection 00:35:03.783 --> 00:35:08.167 about that since then, because I, like I said, there are, there are there, I 00:35:08.167 --> 00:35:13.777 think there are far more lies or failures to tell the truth when it was needed. 00:35:13.777 --> 00:35:15.007 I don't just mean not necessarily just. 00:35:16.087 --> 00:35:22.477 An overt lie by commission, but the number of omissions that I really, 00:35:22.477 --> 00:35:27.631 really regret, and I don't just mean, useful information or, you know, 00:35:27.631 --> 00:35:31.501 information that might've made me look bad, but could've helped a situation. 00:35:31.771 --> 00:35:36.721 I also mean nice things that I wanted to say, but. 00:35:37.486 --> 00:35:38.386 Hesitated. 00:35:38.746 --> 00:35:43.366 Like I've, I've often struggled to also be honest about my 00:35:43.486 --> 00:35:45.376 positive feelings towards people. 00:35:45.436 --> 00:35:45.526 Mm-hmm. 00:35:45.796 --> 00:35:49.576 And or honest about my desires, Joe. 00:35:49.846 --> 00:35:54.676 So when we talk about radical honesty, we're not just talking about how we, 00:35:54.946 --> 00:35:59.146 our honesty towards others as we, and honesty about how we see them, and 00:35:59.146 --> 00:36:03.406 honesty about, you know, how we see their actions or an honesty about how we. 00:36:03.886 --> 00:36:06.916 View their body because sometimes people ask for that. 00:36:07.284 --> 00:36:12.354 but, but also just honesty about how one feels oneself and the desires you have and 00:36:12.354 --> 00:36:16.010 the things that, all the many things that go unexpressed that aren't bad at all. 00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:16.011 Yeah. 00:36:16.014 --> 00:36:21.144 In a weird way, I felt quite seen by her because from, for about 30 00:36:21.144 --> 00:36:25.674 years, from the age of about 15, I hadn't been okay with my body. 00:36:25.674 --> 00:36:27.894 And I don't know, you can relate to this Sam, in a different way. 00:36:27.924 --> 00:36:28.104 Yeah. 00:36:28.284 --> 00:36:28.734 Big time. 00:36:28.794 --> 00:36:30.414 Um, but I hadn't. 00:36:30.954 --> 00:36:35.874 I'd always thought, I've got a shit body or a bad body, or my body is wrong. 00:36:35.989 --> 00:36:39.384 When did you, but it actually took me to my forties for someone to actually 00:36:39.384 --> 00:36:41.124 just say it to me, and you know what? 00:36:41.124 --> 00:36:42.384 Your body is wrong. 00:36:42.384 --> 00:36:43.284 And I'm like, yes. 00:36:43.284 --> 00:36:46.374 I always knew that is it, is it exactly. 00:36:46.464 --> 00:36:50.154 Is the white lie sometimes more harm than good? 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:50.439 Right. 00:36:50.574 --> 00:36:52.584 And certainly Brad Banton would agree so. 00:36:54.174 --> 00:36:57.264 I've had a lot of people, well-intentioned people tell me that 00:36:57.264 --> 00:37:04.104 they'd like my body, and I think they might even mean it, but I failed. 00:37:04.614 --> 00:37:07.644 I just could not trust people saying that. 00:37:07.674 --> 00:37:09.084 I couldn't put my trust in their words. 00:37:09.084 --> 00:37:11.064 And what did you see as the problem with your body? 00:37:12.114 --> 00:37:16.224 Oh, too tall, too gangly. 00:37:16.224 --> 00:37:17.184 Too thin? 00:37:17.274 --> 00:37:19.554 Yeah, too uncoordinated. 00:37:19.914 --> 00:37:23.364 Uh, you know, I didn't like my face either. 00:37:23.752 --> 00:37:26.482 lots of things, but, you know, it wasn't the right skin color. 00:37:26.512 --> 00:37:27.832 I always wanted to be browner. 00:37:28.042 --> 00:37:28.282 Yeah. 00:37:28.312 --> 00:37:31.762 Um, but the, the, the weight one was a real issue for you. 00:37:31.762 --> 00:37:31.942 Yeah. 00:37:32.422 --> 00:37:33.772 Like a eating disorder type thing? 00:37:33.772 --> 00:37:34.042 Yeah. 00:37:34.072 --> 00:37:34.282 Yeah. 00:37:34.282 --> 00:37:35.602 And I felt painfully. 00:37:35.962 --> 00:37:38.392 Self-conscious about having spaghetti legs. 00:37:38.662 --> 00:37:42.052 Now I kind of just wear it with pride and it doesn't bother me, but like that 00:37:42.052 --> 00:37:46.192 was a long, painful journey and aware of having, you know, visible ribs. 00:37:46.582 --> 00:37:50.122 Anders, I think men don't talk about this stuff that much. 00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:50.513 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:50.518 --> 00:37:53.662 Like women are expected to talk about and think about this stuff. 00:37:54.222 --> 00:37:57.162 Oh, if anything, whereas men are thinking and talking about, they're thinking 00:37:57.162 --> 00:37:58.542 about it, but never talking about it. 00:37:58.542 --> 00:38:01.242 Too much expectation maybe on women to talk about it. 00:38:01.302 --> 00:38:03.972 Like Yeah, maybe normalize talking about it less. 00:38:03.972 --> 00:38:04.842 I don't know. 00:38:04.842 --> 00:38:06.072 I've I've heard people say that. 00:38:06.342 --> 00:38:06.522 Yeah. 00:38:06.522 --> 00:38:11.412 Maybe normalize just giving less of a shit overall, like about women's bodies. 00:38:11.742 --> 00:38:12.312 Yeah. 00:38:12.312 --> 00:38:12.315 Yeah, that's right. 00:38:12.487 --> 00:38:16.152 And like everyone just having less opinions generally in including the 00:38:16.152 --> 00:38:17.682 so-called helpful opinions, right? 00:38:17.687 --> 00:38:18.307 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:38:18.312 --> 00:38:20.232 And, but when it comes to men, it's like. 00:38:20.597 --> 00:38:26.417 We could probably be talking about this a lot more, and I first noticed 00:38:26.417 --> 00:38:31.301 it maybe about 11 or 12 and I had like braces and acne and I just, 00:38:31.301 --> 00:38:35.591 obviously that was shit house and I felt horrible about myself, but. 00:38:37.216 --> 00:38:42.586 The real like horror moment of like Earth open up and swallow me now. 00:38:44.356 --> 00:38:46.396 Like Satan take me, I'm ready. 00:38:47.056 --> 00:38:51.676 Uh, was uh, standing on the diving blocks at like the year seven swimming sports. 00:38:51.676 --> 00:38:52.936 So like I'm at a new school. 00:38:52.936 --> 00:38:56.206 I'm having like one of the worst school years of my, no, pretty much 00:38:56.236 --> 00:38:58.516 the worst school year of my life and. 00:38:59.086 --> 00:39:02.476 Miserable and the butt of everyone, like just the bottom 00:39:02.476 --> 00:39:03.916 of that pyramid in the class. 00:39:05.386 --> 00:39:08.146 And I'm standing there on the swimming blocks in my board shorts and I just 00:39:08.686 --> 00:39:12.586 all of a sudden just, I wanna cover up, I want to be somewhere else. 00:39:12.586 --> 00:39:16.936 I don't, and I do not, I just all of a sudden avoided wearing shorts 00:39:16.936 --> 00:39:18.946 for like the next five years. 00:39:18.946 --> 00:39:21.196 I'm like walking around in summer in pants and shit. 00:39:21.256 --> 00:39:21.856 Oh really? 00:39:21.856 --> 00:39:23.086 'cause of your skinny legs? 00:39:23.086 --> 00:39:23.536 Yeah. 00:39:23.536 --> 00:39:24.827 And, and upper body, just like. 00:39:25.096 --> 00:39:28.666 Like avoided bare chested ness like at all times. 00:39:28.666 --> 00:39:32.176 Even in like changing rooms and stuff like that. 00:39:32.176 --> 00:39:36.106 See, I, and meanwhile I was wishing I could be more scrawny and flat 00:39:36.106 --> 00:39:38.566 chested and of course, you know, yeah. 00:39:38.566 --> 00:39:41.506 Like that's, yeah, it gives it, but see, yeah. 00:39:41.506 --> 00:39:42.106 I don't know. 00:39:42.196 --> 00:39:47.176 It's look, and, and I had to cr I had to create an interesting personality 00:39:47.206 --> 00:39:49.246 'cause I was never gonna have the Adonis. 00:39:49.306 --> 00:39:49.516 Yeah. 00:39:49.846 --> 00:39:52.216 But a weird, in my mid forties to be. 00:39:52.606 --> 00:39:55.936 To have someone demand that I create an ADONs body. 00:39:55.996 --> 00:39:59.116 She literally said, you could be an adon and you know. 00:39:59.116 --> 00:39:59.416 Yeah. 00:39:59.416 --> 00:40:00.106 Like I get it. 00:40:00.106 --> 00:40:03.376 I've always had big shoulders and all that, but yeah, exactly. 00:40:03.376 --> 00:40:04.816 Let me ask this question, right. 00:40:05.326 --> 00:40:10.906 Did part of you enjoy, or I don't know, derive some satisfaction or 00:40:10.906 --> 00:40:14.836 whatever from having someone express. 00:40:16.246 --> 00:40:19.246 To for this thing that's haunted your imagination, right? 00:40:19.246 --> 00:40:19.306 Yeah. 00:40:19.726 --> 00:40:20.986 This is what others are thinking. 00:40:20.986 --> 00:40:21.256 Yes. 00:40:21.256 --> 00:40:24.316 Quite a delicious, kind of like brutal. 00:40:24.376 --> 00:40:24.736 Yeah. 00:40:24.766 --> 00:40:25.246 Yes. 00:40:25.246 --> 00:40:27.166 Finally, the shame is confirmed. 00:40:27.271 --> 00:40:27.631 That's right. 00:40:27.646 --> 00:40:28.186 That's right. 00:40:28.216 --> 00:40:29.236 Yes, that's right. 00:40:29.236 --> 00:40:31.576 I'm not imagining it and I think there was an edge to that 00:40:31.576 --> 00:40:33.646 relationship of this power game. 00:40:33.706 --> 00:40:33.856 Mm-hmm. 00:40:34.156 --> 00:40:35.686 Almost kink kind of thing. 00:40:35.746 --> 00:40:38.146 Oh look, it can be a turn on for sure. 00:40:38.176 --> 00:40:39.226 Yeah. 00:40:39.226 --> 00:40:39.228 And but. 00:40:39.466 --> 00:40:41.596 It was just too much of a direct hit. 00:40:41.656 --> 00:40:45.016 I think as much as I've, I've, I acknowledged it and felt like, 00:40:45.016 --> 00:40:46.516 yeah, that's always been the truth. 00:40:46.936 --> 00:40:51.016 The other thing is if you, if you're gonna go the direct hits, like in many 00:40:51.016 --> 00:40:53.537 ways it's a more ethical thing to do. 00:40:54.556 --> 00:40:58.696 If everybody's, you know, having a swing, like if it's a sort of 00:40:58.696 --> 00:41:02.236 mutual, there's a little bit of a, yeah, I'm trying to speak going on. 00:41:02.236 --> 00:41:05.386 I don't think I ever attacked that person's appearance, 00:41:05.386 --> 00:41:09.526 but I certainly attacked her belief system quite vigorously. 00:41:09.676 --> 00:41:10.276 Well, there you go. 00:41:10.276 --> 00:41:14.417 So maybe she felt that the two of you had a sufficient, uh, uh, 00:41:14.866 --> 00:41:16.726 robustness that this was worth doing. 00:41:16.936 --> 00:41:21.766 But what I'm gonna say is, I think sooner you feared hearing this for so many years. 00:41:22.561 --> 00:41:23.881 So, you know what? 00:41:24.151 --> 00:41:26.311 I'm on the other side of it now and I'm still okay. 00:41:26.311 --> 00:41:26.791 Exactly. 00:41:26.791 --> 00:41:27.151 Yeah. 00:41:27.151 --> 00:41:27.152 Yeah. 00:41:27.271 --> 00:41:29.371 So she'd done you a favor finally. 00:41:29.371 --> 00:41:30.781 The thing you feared. 00:41:31.111 --> 00:41:31.531 Great. 00:41:31.621 --> 00:41:34.081 Yeah, let's, let's have that experience. 00:41:34.141 --> 00:41:35.071 Let's survive it. 00:41:35.071 --> 00:41:35.971 I think there's an awful lot. 00:41:35.971 --> 00:41:36.061 Yeah. 00:41:36.061 --> 00:41:39.541 There's an awful lot to be said for facing your fears and even 00:41:39.541 --> 00:41:41.071 if it is gonna hurt and it did. 00:41:41.071 --> 00:41:41.551 It fucking hurt. 00:41:41.551 --> 00:41:42.271 Yeah, it really hurt. 00:41:42.331 --> 00:41:42.541 Yeah. 00:41:42.571 --> 00:41:43.891 It sat with you for months. 00:41:43.921 --> 00:41:44.521 Yeah, it did. 00:41:44.731 --> 00:41:46.951 And it really knocked the wind out. 00:41:47.011 --> 00:41:47.371 Right. 00:41:47.371 --> 00:41:48.931 So like that's true. 00:41:49.201 --> 00:41:50.971 But at the same time now. 00:41:51.596 --> 00:41:53.696 You're not gonna live in the shadow of that in the same way. 00:41:53.696 --> 00:41:56.906 But I also learned another lesson, which is, it might be kinky and exciting, 00:41:56.906 --> 00:41:59.036 but maybe don't date cruel women. 00:41:59.486 --> 00:42:00.116 Yeah. 00:42:00.296 --> 00:42:02.756 Or I'm gonna, this is where I wanna bring in Banton. 00:42:02.756 --> 00:42:03.116 Right? 00:42:03.146 --> 00:42:06.626 So the guy who published a book in a radical honesty and ran workshops and has 00:42:06.626 --> 00:42:07.976 built a whole movement around it, right? 00:42:08.396 --> 00:42:11.426 That his childhood experience, you know, 10 years old, he's 00:42:11.426 --> 00:42:12.476 got an alcoholic father. 00:42:12.476 --> 00:42:16.886 He goes through all this brutal stuff and he decides, you know, in the 00:42:16.886 --> 00:42:18.986 way a child does, I want to help. 00:42:19.591 --> 00:42:22.351 The vulnerable, and I want to kill the mean people. 00:42:22.621 --> 00:42:23.041 Right? 00:42:23.401 --> 00:42:28.473 And then eventually he realizes, you can't kill the mean people and protect 00:42:28.473 --> 00:42:30.003 the vulnerable at the same time. 00:42:30.003 --> 00:42:32.883 It's like you've kind of gotta protect the vulnerable, the 00:42:32.943 --> 00:42:34.293 put, put your energy there. 00:42:34.743 --> 00:42:39.843 But then he goes into psychotherapy and then he realizes, oh, the mean 00:42:39.843 --> 00:42:42.213 people are the helpless people. 00:42:42.573 --> 00:42:43.923 That's why they're mean. 00:42:44.253 --> 00:42:44.823 And. 00:42:45.243 --> 00:42:48.933 So he has that conviction that like, hurt people, hurt people, right? 00:42:49.143 --> 00:42:49.413 Mm-hmm. 00:42:49.473 --> 00:42:52.743 So I need to help these people that hurt people. 00:42:53.163 --> 00:42:58.053 And then after, you know, struggling in his psychotherapeutic practice eventually 00:42:58.053 --> 00:43:00.813 comes to the, the conclusion that. 00:43:01.803 --> 00:43:06.933 The people he was treating were lying to themselves and to others now. 00:43:06.933 --> 00:43:10.803 And I think this is something that every therapist could probably, uh, 00:43:12.243 --> 00:43:14.253 you know, resonate with to a degree. 00:43:14.253 --> 00:43:19.983 Because Adam's looked me in the face tons of times and said, yeah, come on. 00:43:20.673 --> 00:43:23.013 Like, that's less than the truth, isn't it? 00:43:23.373 --> 00:43:23.613 Mm. 00:43:23.673 --> 00:43:25.713 And why don't, you know what is the truth? 00:43:25.743 --> 00:43:26.043 Yeah. 00:43:26.073 --> 00:43:27.423 You can tell me in here. 00:43:27.423 --> 00:43:27.543 Yeah. 00:43:27.543 --> 00:43:29.343 I've been very honest with my therapist. 00:43:29.343 --> 00:43:29.613 Yeah. 00:43:30.618 --> 00:43:34.248 And I've been much, it's, yeah, like I said, it's taken 10 years, but it, 00:43:34.248 --> 00:43:40.668 it's, the honesty has, it was always there, but how often was it there? 00:43:40.788 --> 00:43:41.238 Right. 00:43:41.238 --> 00:43:43.038 And how often did I try to get away from it? 00:43:43.038 --> 00:43:48.648 So I still try to evade it, but I am much better at going at it sooner 00:43:48.918 --> 00:43:50.478 and going at it more thoroughly. 00:43:51.138 --> 00:43:55.488 And I don't now, I kind of feel so much safer just admitting. 00:43:56.703 --> 00:44:00.903 Yeah, admit the things that I regret about myself and regretting, uh, the things 00:44:00.903 --> 00:44:02.673 I, the actions I regret and et cetera. 00:44:02.673 --> 00:44:08.703 I'm much happier doing that and I've discovered so much, like a greater 00:44:08.703 --> 00:44:15.333 level of peace from just saying, yeah, there's so much that I'm not proud 00:44:15.333 --> 00:44:19.053 of and I'm really sorry, and that I wanna spend the rest of my life doing a 00:44:19.053 --> 00:44:24.633 much better job of that, um, including the, including the honesty of saying. 00:44:25.653 --> 00:44:27.963 Saying the good things not holding back on. 00:44:28.713 --> 00:44:30.933 Yeah, it sounds like that with your text to your dad. 00:44:30.963 --> 00:44:31.323 Yeah. 00:44:31.323 --> 00:44:31.743 Yeah. 00:44:31.743 --> 00:44:32.253 That's right. 00:44:32.403 --> 00:44:34.353 I just like, he deserves this. 00:44:34.383 --> 00:44:34.713 Yeah. 00:44:34.713 --> 00:44:38.223 And I deserve this, like, I'm doing everybody a favor here. 00:44:38.223 --> 00:44:42.311 I think, although I did read an article about, some, some bloody columnist, 00:44:42.591 --> 00:44:46.096 whatever, having an issue with people going on apology binges after having 00:44:46.096 --> 00:44:47.896 a moment of self-awareness and like. 00:44:48.586 --> 00:44:51.041 Contacting people from years ago and saying, sorry. 00:44:51.041 --> 00:44:52.966 Oh, that sounds like doing amends in, yes. 00:44:53.176 --> 00:44:54.136 In addiction recovery. 00:44:54.166 --> 00:44:54.586 That's right. 00:44:54.586 --> 00:44:58.306 I did that twice and I think it's a really worthwhile thing to do. 00:44:58.306 --> 00:45:00.676 I've got, yeah, but it is, if you do it in a conscious That's right. 00:45:00.676 --> 00:45:01.546 Systematic way. 00:45:01.576 --> 00:45:02.116 That's right. 00:45:02.176 --> 00:45:04.546 And careful not to open wound. 00:45:04.546 --> 00:45:07.216 And also an amends is different to an apology because you're 00:45:07.216 --> 00:45:09.136 actually going to fix the problem. 00:45:09.136 --> 00:45:09.646 That's right. 00:45:09.646 --> 00:45:10.216 You don't. 00:45:10.636 --> 00:45:11.926 Just have to say, sorry. 00:45:11.956 --> 00:45:12.826 No, that's not enough. 00:45:12.826 --> 00:45:16.246 And, and there is a kind of selfishness to a lot of apologies. 00:45:16.336 --> 00:45:18.256 It's like, okay, I've done my bit. 00:45:18.376 --> 00:45:21.316 Now let me off the hook, clear my conscience for me. 00:45:21.316 --> 00:45:24.046 So it's like, and amends can be like that, but that means they're 00:45:24.046 --> 00:45:25.366 not really being done properly. 00:45:25.366 --> 00:45:27.676 No, because the amends has to be offered. 00:45:27.796 --> 00:45:32.506 What I've learned, and I'm be interested to know your thoughts, the amends has to 00:45:32.506 --> 00:45:35.056 be offered with like a full awareness. 00:45:35.431 --> 00:45:41.011 Of, uh, the fact that the other person does not owe you Yeah, an outcome. 00:45:41.071 --> 00:45:45.301 I've done a couple of brutal amends to the mother of my children where I was not 00:45:45.301 --> 00:45:51.361 given much, uh, positive reinforcement in, in return, but I said what I had 00:45:51.361 --> 00:45:52.801 written down what I needed to say. 00:45:52.801 --> 00:45:54.121 I said what I needed to say. 00:45:54.901 --> 00:45:58.711 And you know, then in addiction recovery there's a living amends. 00:45:58.711 --> 00:46:03.001 And my living amends is to never pick up a drink of alcohol one day at a time. 00:46:03.151 --> 00:46:05.461 That's a duty you have to yourself and to others. 00:46:05.491 --> 00:46:06.241 Yeah, and my kids. 00:46:06.366 --> 00:46:06.586 Yes. 00:46:06.591 --> 00:46:07.051 Yes. 00:46:07.081 --> 00:46:07.501 That's right. 00:46:07.501 --> 00:46:11.311 And to the people I hurt when I drank, and the number one 00:46:11.311 --> 00:46:12.481 being the mother of my children. 00:46:12.541 --> 00:46:13.081 Yes. 00:46:13.081 --> 00:46:13.083 You know? 00:46:13.261 --> 00:46:13.741 That's right. 00:46:13.741 --> 00:46:17.551 And so I think the place where the honesty has to start is with yourself. 00:46:17.551 --> 00:46:18.706 And that, that it's, it. 00:46:19.441 --> 00:46:20.101 If you Yeah. 00:46:20.101 --> 00:46:21.991 Radical honesty towards ourselves. 00:46:22.021 --> 00:46:23.791 It's the number one duty. 00:46:24.001 --> 00:46:30.241 Uh, because if you, as this Bratton guy's pointing out, his therapists, uh, sorry. 00:46:30.241 --> 00:46:33.211 His therapeutic patients who are, you know, causing harm to others 00:46:33.211 --> 00:46:38.401 and themselves, they are lying to themselves and to others about that. 00:46:38.671 --> 00:46:38.971 Mm-hmm. 00:46:39.061 --> 00:46:43.441 And how are they gonna make any progress until they've stopped doing that? 00:46:44.171 --> 00:46:46.301 But I'll, I'll, I'll be, I'll be honest. 00:46:47.921 --> 00:46:54.941 Every single improvement I've made in my life and every single breakthrough, 00:46:55.061 --> 00:47:02.741 right, every single victory over, you know, despair and addiction 00:47:02.741 --> 00:47:07.421 and all this, every single bit of progress I've made has come with a 00:47:07.481 --> 00:47:10.481 big dose of guilt and regret because. 00:47:11.641 --> 00:47:18.631 It was easier in some ways to sit there thinking nothing will ever get better and 00:47:19.381 --> 00:47:21.181 I'm just epically diseased and that's it. 00:47:21.751 --> 00:47:26.311 But, but the second I was able to improve and make progress, it immediately came 00:47:26.311 --> 00:47:30.301 with this regret of like, well, if I could do this, why didn't I do it sooner? 00:47:30.541 --> 00:47:30.781 Mm-hmm. 00:47:30.871 --> 00:47:35.641 And when you finally admit the problem, and there's a whole series 00:47:35.641 --> 00:47:38.881 of 'em that have to be admitted, one after the other, you also. 00:47:40.141 --> 00:47:46.081 Then become more and painfully aware of the effect that this has had on others. 00:47:46.261 --> 00:47:47.881 And that's part of it. 00:47:47.881 --> 00:47:53.941 And then you're like the, the grief of the lost good years that you could have 00:47:53.941 --> 00:47:58.921 had if you'd just lived more truthfully and you know, more compassionately 00:47:59.311 --> 00:48:00.751 towards yourself and towards others. 00:48:00.751 --> 00:48:02.041 And it's just a brutal thing. 00:48:02.851 --> 00:48:08.371 Unfortunately, some people in their heart of hearts, they know that if. 00:48:09.001 --> 00:48:13.201 They just cannot let that truth in that they just feel they cannot, they would 00:48:13.201 --> 00:48:14.761 not be able to live with themselves. 00:48:14.821 --> 00:48:19.801 And so they remain in a place of just constantly justifying 00:48:19.801 --> 00:48:21.031 the harms they've caused. 00:48:21.061 --> 00:48:21.091 Mm. 00:48:21.481 --> 00:48:25.411 And I've done that in the past, but, you know, I just don't want to do it anymore. 00:48:25.471 --> 00:48:30.223 And if I become aware of it, I, I immediately want to take action and. 00:48:30.868 --> 00:48:35.458 Others have played a very important role in being honest with me and 00:48:35.458 --> 00:48:38.878 getting me to have the awareness in the first place, you know? 00:48:39.208 --> 00:48:39.478 Hmm. 00:48:39.538 --> 00:48:40.018 All right, Sam. 00:48:40.018 --> 00:48:41.548 Well I think that's a good place to leave it. 00:48:42.568 --> 00:48:43.588 It's been a good chat. 00:48:44.338 --> 00:48:45.718 Have you got any final thoughts? 00:48:46.498 --> 00:48:48.598 I won't do the one more thing for a change. 00:48:48.886 --> 00:48:50.746 think we've given it a thorough going over. 00:48:50.836 --> 00:48:54.586 I mean, I would reflect that may, I'm glad I've gone public about having a 00:48:54.586 --> 00:48:57.376 dad bod That's very, very cathartic. 00:48:58.711 --> 00:49:02.401 I kind of, I, I do still feel mad at that person. 00:49:02.491 --> 00:49:06.511 Um, she was a cruel person and I don't say that lightly. 00:49:06.511 --> 00:49:09.481 I don't think I've met super cruel people in my life. 00:49:09.751 --> 00:49:10.321 Many of them. 00:49:10.351 --> 00:49:12.421 No, I don't think I've heard you describe anyone else. 00:49:12.751 --> 00:49:13.291 Yeah, no. 00:49:13.291 --> 00:49:14.311 She had a cruel streak. 00:49:14.586 --> 00:49:15.276 But it was kind of hot. 00:49:15.276 --> 00:49:15.576 Right? 00:49:18.756 --> 00:49:20.886 But I've gotta not stop playing with fire. 00:49:20.886 --> 00:49:21.276 You know? 00:49:21.276 --> 00:49:24.486 I will get they, they say that you like the bad girls, honey. 00:49:24.606 --> 00:49:25.416 Is that true? 00:49:25.926 --> 00:49:27.846 Uh, well now you do. 00:49:28.296 --> 00:49:29.406 Uh, yeah. 00:49:29.406 --> 00:49:35.796 Look, I, and I was trying to remember if I've said anything that like really 00:49:35.796 --> 00:49:39.712 hurt, like a girlfriend's feelings like that, and, and nothing's come 00:49:39.712 --> 00:49:41.482 to mind, but I know that I have. 00:49:41.602 --> 00:49:42.562 Yeah, it's hard to do. 00:49:42.562 --> 00:49:46.012 I'm to, I try not to put you on the spot for specific examples 'cause I think 00:49:46.012 --> 00:49:52.792 that's really hard in a podcast, but, but I definitely think that I, I probably got 00:49:52.792 --> 00:49:59.782 faced with the classic nineties question of like, does my bum look big in this? 00:50:00.442 --> 00:50:02.092 And I think. 00:50:02.606 --> 00:50:11.126 I think the, the, the, the honesty that hurt was like, no, and I don't care. 00:50:11.636 --> 00:50:13.136 And why are you being such a cliche? 00:50:13.526 --> 00:50:14.216 Yeah. 00:50:14.216 --> 00:50:15.686 Asking me this question. 00:50:15.746 --> 00:50:16.136 Yeah. 00:50:16.286 --> 00:50:16.616 Like. 00:50:17.906 --> 00:50:22.496 Y you just, you just need to be okay with just whatever it is. 00:50:22.496 --> 00:50:27.446 Like I can't change this reality for you, like, you like that owe the irony 00:50:27.446 --> 00:50:30.896 of this because the number of, because I was re, I reached out to people in the 00:50:30.896 --> 00:50:32.756 same way for reassurance, constantly. 00:50:32.756 --> 00:50:34.256 Absolute reassurance, junkie. 00:50:34.286 --> 00:50:37.016 And then so to turn around and say to someone else, get outta here 00:50:37.016 --> 00:50:38.366 with your reassurance fishing. 00:50:38.516 --> 00:50:38.576 Yeah. 00:50:38.581 --> 00:50:40.556 It's like, it's pretty rich, you know? 00:50:41.036 --> 00:50:42.776 So I do kind of regret that. 00:50:42.866 --> 00:50:44.816 Um, and I think. 00:50:45.806 --> 00:50:50.486 There were times when, we've talked about this before, times when, uh, 00:50:50.546 --> 00:50:54.056 you, you, you caught your partner in the wrong angle, the wrong light or 00:50:54.056 --> 00:51:01.621 whatever, and you know, it, it hit the wrong way and then, you know, 00:51:04.766 --> 00:51:09.566 in inability to kind of disguise that, you know, and so that's a kind of honesty 00:51:09.566 --> 00:51:11.006 that can really hurt because Sure. 00:51:11.006 --> 00:51:12.596 What can people do about their appearance? 00:51:12.596 --> 00:51:13.496 I mean, there's a certain amount, but. 00:51:14.876 --> 00:51:15.296 I don't know. 00:51:15.296 --> 00:51:19.826 It's a tough one, but I think what really helps with, uh, with just on the 00:51:19.826 --> 00:51:22.916 appearance side of things, I dunno why I'm caring about that example so much. 00:51:25.076 --> 00:51:28.196 I think I just like you, I think I just really wanted someone just to say what I 00:51:28.196 --> 00:51:33.116 was thinking and go Yeah, you know what, you are an you're too scrawny, you are 00:51:33.116 --> 00:51:37.556 a weird scrawny dude and I bean pole. 00:51:37.676 --> 00:51:38.096 Yeah. 00:51:38.096 --> 00:51:38.816 And I dunno. 00:51:38.816 --> 00:51:40.916 And I think just people were trying to be too kind. 00:51:41.636 --> 00:51:44.096 And I just wanted people to say, yeah, it's true. 00:51:44.786 --> 00:51:46.706 You know, it was all a bit of an illusion, Sam. 00:51:46.736 --> 00:51:49.916 'cause you're very tall and if one thing I learned from Ali who used 00:51:49.916 --> 00:51:53.306 to be on this show is that women lose their mind for tall guys. 00:51:54.221 --> 00:51:54.731 I don't, yeah. 00:51:54.731 --> 00:51:56.471 And you know, you've probably done all right. 00:51:56.621 --> 00:51:57.281 There's so many. 00:51:57.281 --> 00:51:57.941 Yeah, I know. 00:51:57.941 --> 00:52:00.251 But I think, but I think at the end of, you've probably done all right 00:52:00.251 --> 00:52:04.931 through sheer height and just Yeah, volume of words and just one or two good 00:52:04.931 --> 00:52:09.071 qualities in a person mixed in with a whole bunch of absolute bullshit, but 00:52:09.071 --> 00:52:13.091 like just annoyance and mark apart from anything else, just being a very annoying 00:52:13.091 --> 00:52:15.851 person over the years, but like I. 00:52:16.856 --> 00:52:20.936 I honestly did not believe God. 00:52:20.996 --> 00:52:25.496 I remember actually, Kas said this very early on. 00:52:25.916 --> 00:52:32.095 She goes, no, just by the way, you think you are not one of the pretty ones. 00:52:32.100 --> 00:52:33.145 You, you are. 00:52:33.685 --> 00:52:34.105 Yeah. 00:52:34.195 --> 00:52:36.445 And I'm like, no, I'm not. 00:52:36.505 --> 00:52:37.885 And she's like, no, no, no, no. 00:52:38.185 --> 00:52:39.055 Look at this friend. 00:52:39.145 --> 00:52:39.865 Look at that friend. 00:52:39.925 --> 00:52:40.615 Look at that friend. 00:52:41.065 --> 00:52:44.455 See they're all fashionable and gg, and you hang out with them. 00:52:44.770 --> 00:52:46.480 And you are one of them. 00:52:46.750 --> 00:52:48.760 And I'm like, no, no, no, no. 00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:49.600 I'm the outsider. 00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:50.770 I'm the weird one. 00:52:50.860 --> 00:52:52.570 And she's like, no, no, no. 00:52:52.570 --> 00:52:55.000 You fit in with like a cool, good looking crowd. 00:52:55.030 --> 00:52:56.830 This is when I was like 28, 29, right? 00:52:57.310 --> 00:52:57.670 Yeah. 00:52:58.600 --> 00:52:59.320 But she said, but guess what? 00:53:00.190 --> 00:53:01.180 I don't care about that. 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:01.900 Yeah. 00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:03.040 That's not why I like you. 00:53:03.040 --> 00:53:05.590 I like you because you've got good qualities as a person. 00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:05.650 Yeah. 00:53:05.650 --> 00:53:07.150 And that's what this is actually about. 00:53:07.150 --> 00:53:08.890 And that's when you knew you'd found a good one. 00:53:08.950 --> 00:53:09.760 That's exactly right. 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:10.300 Yeah. 00:53:10.300 --> 00:53:10.325 Yeah, yeah. 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:12.790 But you know what that so you're not cruel opposite of cruel. 00:53:12.820 --> 00:53:13.090 No. 00:53:13.090 --> 00:53:13.570 Kind. 00:53:13.570 --> 00:53:16.840 No, I'm not in truth, but, but not but, but being honest. 00:53:16.870 --> 00:53:17.380 Exactly. 00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:18.430 Kind, honesty. 00:53:18.490 --> 00:53:20.800 And this was a nice, honest thing, but you know what, it pissed 00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:22.510 me off because I was like, no. 00:53:22.885 --> 00:53:25.135 I want you to love me for superficial reasons. 00:53:25.435 --> 00:53:25.645 Yeah. 00:53:25.645 --> 00:53:29.155 I'll, I'll be honest, it did not land the way that she hoped it would. 00:53:29.365 --> 00:53:29.695 Yeah. 00:53:29.755 --> 00:53:30.145 You know? 00:53:30.145 --> 00:53:30.325 No. 00:53:30.325 --> 00:53:31.795 Well, you got a couple of kids out of it. 00:53:32.065 --> 00:53:32.725 Well, let and look. 00:53:32.725 --> 00:53:33.235 That's right. 00:53:33.235 --> 00:53:36.989 And look, let's be honest, I, I, I'll, I'll, yeah. 00:53:37.049 --> 00:53:37.829 I'll be honest. 00:53:38.309 --> 00:53:38.879 I have. 00:53:40.109 --> 00:53:44.099 At least as much superficiality as others after years of absolutely 00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:47.339 bullshitting everyone to the contrary that I only care about 00:53:47.339 --> 00:53:49.229 meaningful things, absolute nonsense. 00:53:49.229 --> 00:53:53.129 I wanna go on the record right now as saying I'm as vain, shallow, 00:53:53.129 --> 00:53:54.479 and superficial as anybody. 00:53:54.479 --> 00:53:58.409 One of the biggest reasons I'm single sitting here today is that if I catch 00:53:58.409 --> 00:54:01.349 someone on the wrong angle, my It's over. 00:54:01.349 --> 00:54:02.069 Yeah, it's over. 00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:04.739 And my tr, and it seems to be my truth. 00:54:05.294 --> 00:54:10.514 My brain is telling me that the truth is, the truth is the unvarnished truth is this 00:54:10.514 --> 00:54:14.899 person is not attractive, objectively, not attractive, at least in this moment. 00:54:15.824 --> 00:54:21.194 And, but that moment stays with me until I then I, I don't use radical honesty. 00:54:21.194 --> 00:54:25.244 I make up some other excuse and I end the relationship and, and 00:54:25.244 --> 00:54:27.194 that's why I'm still single at 45. 00:54:27.494 --> 00:54:27.734 Yeah. 00:54:27.734 --> 00:54:29.144 Because, because you're a shallow bitch. 00:54:29.174 --> 00:54:33.314 Because I'm a And until I get less shallow, I'm probably gonna stay 00:54:33.314 --> 00:54:35.684 alone and I'm very lonely at times. 00:54:36.014 --> 00:54:36.104 Oh yeah. 00:54:36.194 --> 00:54:41.684 So I, I want to override it, but it's again, comes back to well. 00:54:42.089 --> 00:54:43.709 Are you being honest with yourself? 00:54:43.769 --> 00:54:47.309 If you, if can you convince yourself you're attracted to someone that 00:54:47.309 --> 00:54:52.889 your base, your base nature is saying isn't attractive all the time. 00:54:52.949 --> 00:54:54.809 Man, this is so tough. 00:54:55.229 --> 00:54:57.569 I really, okay, so I'm gonna propose we. 00:54:59.384 --> 00:55:03.314 Focus on physical attract for attractiveness, for all the, 00:55:03.344 --> 00:55:06.014 everything that goes into it for like another episode. 00:55:06.404 --> 00:55:10.034 Uh, and I wanna, I actually would, I'm really hoping we can hear from 00:55:10.034 --> 00:55:16.484 people about this and, 'cause I feel like this is, this, this is so 00:55:16.484 --> 00:55:18.554 rich and psychoanalytically rich. 00:55:18.554 --> 00:55:19.904 I think there's a lot that goes into it. 00:55:20.174 --> 00:55:21.999 Your state and, and the first thing I want to challenge. 00:55:22.724 --> 00:55:25.424 And like I said, I wanna do a whole episode on this so we can do it justice. 00:55:25.784 --> 00:55:27.434 The big thing I wanna push back on. 00:55:28.004 --> 00:55:31.154 Is this idea you have that this is somehow an objective assessment? 00:55:31.214 --> 00:55:31.874 Yeah, no. 00:55:31.874 --> 00:55:34.844 That's how it presents itself to me as the truth. 00:55:35.204 --> 00:55:38.774 Whereas the story I was telling myself, is this person's perfectly 00:55:38.774 --> 00:55:42.524 attractive enough and, and this has been the case numerous times. 00:55:42.524 --> 00:55:42.734 Of course. 00:55:42.734 --> 00:55:44.114 A wonderful person Yeah. 00:55:44.114 --> 00:55:44.115 Of. 00:55:44.419 --> 00:55:45.679 A wonderful person. 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:45.739 Yeah. 00:55:45.739 --> 00:55:46.729 Great company. 00:55:46.729 --> 00:55:46.789 Yeah. 00:55:47.029 --> 00:55:48.139 Sex is great. 00:55:48.169 --> 00:55:49.339 Yeah, I'm having a great time. 00:55:49.339 --> 00:55:53.329 Everything's, and oh, I've just caught her on a weird angle and yes, she's now 00:55:53.329 --> 00:55:57.049 hideous to me, and yeah, and I've had this experience, not for a long, long 00:55:57.049 --> 00:55:58.339 time, but I have had this experience. 00:55:58.339 --> 00:55:59.239 I'm still having it, man. 00:55:59.239 --> 00:55:59.569 Yeah, yeah. 00:55:59.629 --> 00:56:02.359 I'm in the thick of it, you know, and it's ruining my life. 00:56:02.689 --> 00:56:04.699 Oh, certainly the single part of my life. 00:56:04.699 --> 00:56:05.689 Talk about honesty. 00:56:06.074 --> 00:56:07.334 It is ruining your life. 00:56:07.609 --> 00:56:11.984 But, but even if, if, even if you do just, uh, you know, meet someone who's like 00:56:11.984 --> 00:56:16.904 really, really very suitable, which you have before and, and you do again, right. 00:56:17.024 --> 00:56:19.934 What's to stop this thing from happening again? 00:56:19.934 --> 00:56:20.264 Right. 00:56:20.269 --> 00:56:20.469 I know. 00:56:20.469 --> 00:56:22.004 And so I think it has to be dealt with. 00:56:22.274 --> 00:56:24.644 It has to be dealt with or will die alone. 00:56:24.649 --> 00:56:24.709 You. 00:56:24.964 --> 00:56:25.774 Fucking will. 00:56:25.834 --> 00:56:26.194 Yeah. 00:56:26.254 --> 00:56:27.694 I'm gonna be brutally honest with you. 00:56:27.694 --> 00:56:27.874 Yeah. 00:56:28.204 --> 00:56:32.914 And because I've got, you know, I'm, I'm not a 10 myself, so I, I, I, come 00:56:32.914 --> 00:56:34.774 on, what business do you have, right? 00:56:34.804 --> 00:56:35.704 Yeah, that's right. 00:56:35.824 --> 00:56:38.074 But you can't override it once you, you can't override it. 00:56:38.434 --> 00:56:40.114 It's very primal. 00:56:41.014 --> 00:56:42.424 It's very pri It's very like, am I going to make. 00:56:43.169 --> 00:56:44.369 Babies with this person. 00:56:44.399 --> 00:56:44.519 Yeah. 00:56:44.549 --> 00:56:44.999 Correct. 00:56:44.999 --> 00:56:48.269 So I, I think subconsciously obviously, 'cause you, I've had the snip, I'm not 00:56:48.269 --> 00:56:49.619 making any more babies, but, right. 00:56:49.649 --> 00:56:51.959 So there's some sort of level of that happening. 00:56:51.959 --> 00:56:52.319 Right. 00:56:52.439 --> 00:56:56.939 But I also think this one is, as, I've gotta be honest, I used to 00:56:56.939 --> 00:57:00.059 go for the evolutionary psychology explanation on these things. 00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:00.479 Right. 00:57:00.569 --> 00:57:05.039 And I was never 100% comfortable with that field of theory. 00:57:05.069 --> 00:57:06.869 'cause I've seen how it can be abused. 00:57:07.259 --> 00:57:07.654 But there were. 00:57:08.609 --> 00:57:12.239 Findings or ideas in there that just did make a certain amount of 00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:16.166 sense, and could help explain things, certain things that happened, or at 00:57:16.166 --> 00:57:17.846 least be part of the explanation. 00:57:17.876 --> 00:57:18.206 Right? 00:57:18.386 --> 00:57:22.406 So in this case, it might be part of the explanation, but, but I've really 00:57:22.406 --> 00:57:25.676 gone on a bit of a rabbit hole in the last few years with aesthetics. 00:57:25.676 --> 00:57:30.357 I've really thought really, really hard about aesthetics and how, it's influenced 00:57:30.387 --> 00:57:34.857 by our feeling of that something is objectively attractive or not. 00:57:35.397 --> 00:57:39.357 And I'm including objects and, and yeah, places. 00:57:39.897 --> 00:57:45.837 Cars, buildings, anything like a package design, um, a park bench, like anything. 00:57:46.257 --> 00:57:48.387 And I don't wanna get all American Beauty on it and like, oh, 00:57:48.387 --> 00:57:49.707 this plastic bag is beautiful. 00:57:49.707 --> 00:57:53.866 Like, we can't, we can't distort reality past a certain point, but 00:57:53.866 --> 00:57:58.636 we have to recognize that it is already somewhat distorted and, and 00:57:58.786 --> 00:58:02.986 so there's a psychoanalytic part, there's evolutionary psychology, 00:58:03.016 --> 00:58:04.456 and then there's just aesthetic. 00:58:04.996 --> 00:58:10.216 Politics going on all the time, and we are completely enthralled to all 00:58:10.216 --> 00:58:13.756 kinds of stuff that we have a duty to really try and unpack for ourselves. 00:58:14.476 --> 00:58:14.596 Ah, bro. 00:58:14.596 --> 00:58:17.806 I'm probably still just trying to date Umer Thurman from Pulp Fiction. 00:58:17.836 --> 00:58:21.106 I think you've got, and I've been trying to date her since I saw that film. 00:58:21.106 --> 00:58:22.186 This is what I'm Exactly. 00:58:22.186 --> 00:58:23.296 I got pretty close. 00:58:23.296 --> 00:58:23.716 Yeah. 00:58:23.806 --> 00:58:26.086 Uh, with some of my previous partners, but like you did. 00:58:26.326 --> 00:58:26.626 Yeah. 00:58:26.686 --> 00:58:28.936 Like you did, like actually I had it. 00:58:28.936 --> 00:58:32.536 I had, anyway, I think we need to wrap it up, Sam. 00:58:32.536 --> 00:58:32.746 What? 00:58:32.806 --> 00:58:33.976 Yeah, what I'm trying to say is. 00:58:34.261 --> 00:58:39.421 It's not objective, you know, that it's gonna take some hardcore deprogramming. 00:58:39.451 --> 00:58:44.221 Um, but I really, this is a worthwhile topic for the future that I've been, yeah. 00:58:44.221 --> 00:58:47.971 I need to overcome it if I'm going to have a, yeah. 00:58:48.271 --> 00:58:52.441 Like I had to take a break from therapy because I was gonna say, 00:58:52.441 --> 00:58:55.471 yeah, I took a break from therapy because I wasn't changing anything 00:58:55.471 --> 00:58:57.031 in my relationships with women. 00:58:57.181 --> 00:58:57.571 Okay. 00:58:57.661 --> 00:58:59.251 So what was the point of therapy? 00:58:59.491 --> 00:58:59.581 Sure. 00:58:59.581 --> 00:59:01.081 The one of the last things she said to me. 00:59:01.471 --> 00:59:08.071 Is maybe if you sort all this stuff out, Joe, then maybe one day. 00:59:08.131 --> 00:59:12.991 Yeah, one day you might be able to have an actual agile relationship. 00:59:12.991 --> 00:59:14.881 Relationship with an actual woman. 00:59:15.001 --> 00:59:15.481 Yes. 00:59:15.631 --> 00:59:16.471 See you later. 00:59:16.831 --> 00:59:17.221 Yes. 00:59:17.221 --> 00:59:21.331 And that was six months ago or whatever, and I have not progressed in that time. 00:59:22.771 --> 00:59:24.146 Say on says she was calling a halt. 00:59:24.466 --> 00:59:28.516 To the therapist, the time being, but she, she's always happy to see me. 00:59:28.516 --> 00:59:32.086 But when you do 10% of your time on everything that's happening in 00:59:32.086 --> 00:59:35.716 the world, and then 90% on your relationships with women and then 00:59:35.716 --> 00:59:40.006 relationships with women, you keep behaving in the same way in the world. 00:59:40.006 --> 00:59:41.356 What's the point of the therapy? 00:59:41.356 --> 00:59:43.966 Until I want to, I wanna change something, Sam? 00:59:43.996 --> 00:59:44.326 Yeah. 00:59:44.406 --> 00:59:46.536 And then go back to my therapist. 00:59:46.596 --> 00:59:46.746 Yeah. 00:59:46.776 --> 00:59:48.876 So change something in my behavior. 00:59:49.026 --> 00:59:49.326 Yeah. 00:59:49.536 --> 00:59:51.576 Do it consistently for a period of time. 00:59:51.726 --> 00:59:54.726 Start an actual relationship with an actual adult woman 00:59:54.726 --> 00:59:57.636 who's got and who's got flaws. 00:59:57.666 --> 00:59:58.746 And accept those flaws. 00:59:58.746 --> 00:59:59.796 And accept the flaws. 00:59:59.796 --> 01:00:02.076 And then go back to therapy and like right. 01:00:02.611 --> 01:00:03.811 I'm in with a chance here. 01:00:04.291 --> 01:00:05.821 Please help me in with a chance. 01:00:05.821 --> 01:00:08.611 That's right, not fairy tone, but at the moment, I'm still stuck in the 01:00:08.611 --> 01:00:11.131 same doom loop of no one's perfect. 01:00:11.131 --> 01:00:14.281 And yeah, no, no, I, I can totally say it and I can 01:00:14.311 --> 01:00:15.481 absolutely remember living there. 01:00:16.396 --> 01:00:19.306 And just having that Groucho Marks thing of, I don't wanna be a member of 01:00:19.306 --> 01:00:20.836 any club that we have, be as a member. 01:00:20.836 --> 01:00:23.026 Like that's point fuck fundamentally. 01:00:23.026 --> 01:00:23.386 That's what, yeah. 01:00:23.386 --> 01:00:24.376 I'm a piece of shit. 01:00:24.376 --> 01:00:27.101 So if you like me, you must be less than a piece of shit there, there 01:00:27.106 --> 01:00:28.186 must be something wrong with you. 01:00:28.216 --> 01:00:29.056 Yeah, that's right. 01:00:29.056 --> 01:00:30.256 All of that's so true. 01:00:30.316 --> 01:00:34.666 And, and, and so, uh, and I'm gonna, we're gonna have to go back into 01:00:34.666 --> 01:00:40.066 attachment theory and, uh, devaluing and, uh, all that stuff Alright. 01:00:40.216 --> 01:00:41.656 Coming up in a future episode. 01:00:41.686 --> 01:00:42.016 Yeah. 01:00:42.016 --> 01:00:44.416 And let's hear from, uh, let's hear from anyone. 01:00:44.806 --> 01:00:50.116 Who wants to chime in on the topic of appearance and, uh, hey, 01:00:50.206 --> 01:00:54.376 attraction and get stuck in, men are a bunch of superficial bastards 01:00:54.376 --> 01:00:55.966 and they deserve a massive serve. 01:00:56.326 --> 01:00:59.296 Uh, or actually, do you have a more sympathetic take on it than that? 01:00:59.416 --> 01:00:59.536 Mm. 01:00:59.536 --> 01:01:04.546 You know, and like how much honesty is welcome, uh, in a physical intimacy? 01:01:04.546 --> 01:01:06.616 We always want radical honesty from our listeners. 01:01:06.976 --> 01:01:07.516 We do. 01:01:07.696 --> 01:01:08.356 Yeah, that's right. 01:01:08.361 --> 01:01:08.641 Okay. 01:01:08.641 --> 01:01:09.316 So right in. 01:01:09.376 --> 01:01:09.706 All right. 01:01:09.706 --> 01:01:10.456 I'm gonna go, Sam. 01:01:10.516 --> 01:01:10.906 Yes. 01:01:10.906 --> 01:01:11.201 We're gonna go. 01:01:11.761 --> 01:01:12.241 All right. 01:01:12.271 --> 01:01:13.081 Thanks for having me. 01:01:13.141 --> 01:01:14.011 Oh, you're welcome. 01:01:14.011 --> 01:01:14.641 See you next time. 01:01:14.641 --> 01:01:14.761 See you. 01:01:14.966 --> 01:01:15.126 Alright.