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In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we read that God makes everything beautiful in its time. It is comforting to know that nothing is wasted in God's economy, but all of it will be used for our good and His glory. You're invited to join us for poignant conversations and compelling interviews centered on believing for His beauty in every season.
Shannon Scott (00:01.612)
Well, hello, Pastor Donna Passani. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast today. I have been so excited about this conversation and I can't wait to share it with you.
Donna Pisani (00:13.239)
It's a huge honor to be with you, Shannon. I just love you. The few times we've interacted, I just felt this connection heart to heart. So thank you.
Shannon Scott (00:23.189)
Well, I have to say, I have felt the same and you are someone who sees people. And that has been my experience on the other side of you. We've, you know, we've been together several times at Kerygma, but then also at an Esther Press event that we did with this David C. Cook, this book we're going to talk about today, which is amazing. But every time you have
had no reason to say anything profound to me or to see me in moments and every time you have without fail. And I think that's your character. And so I just want to say thank you for that. It's been really encouraging and inspiring. So I am thrilled to talk to you about this book today. I'm going to hold it up for the people that are watching us on video. This is Entrusted to Lead. And I heard you.
give this content at Kerygma in one of the rooms that you were in and I came to it and I thought, my goodness, the minute this book releases, we have to talk about it. It is such a profound work. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. But you have spent the better part of 40 years now as a pastor, ministry leader, you and your husband, you are in a local church. And so
you've mentored and coached women long before writing this book. And so what are some of the predominant struggles and issues that women have experienced in leadership that led you to say, okay, we need all of this in one place to encourage women.
Donna Pisani (02:00.741)
That's great, Shannon. I probably would say that there are struggles I've experienced. But I don't, in the early days, I used to think it was just me. You can isolate yourself and you don't realize that this is pretty common to anybody in leadership and specifically, I think, to females because it's kind of like a new landscape as new insight into theology or access to theology.
Shannon Scott (02:05.814)
Yeah.
Donna Pisani (02:28.473)
became available so then we see more women in leadership. Also just the way the culture is, we see more women in leadership. for me, I think probably the biggest struggle was I was a huge defender of who I wasn't. So I could give you a million excuses as to why I couldn't do something because I just saw everything I was lacking rather than.
becoming curious to who got it and trusted me to be. So I think the battle a lot of times is that we don't realize that we've been entrusted and each of us has a specific gift that is unique to who we are. You know, as women, we often compare ourselves with shuts down, which immediately shuts down the entrustment. And I think we're in new spaces. So I was often the only female at the leadership table. So I had to learn how to be confident and how to not speak man, because that sounds
Like I wanted my own voice. I had to be able to read the room. So I think first of all, it's knowing that God has already positioned you and grow in your confidence. think that's the biggest battle. And then also we don't have to fight for the position. I think that's probably a big thing. It's not what you're entitled to. It's what God's entrusted you with. So I think that's.
Shannon Scott (03:37.667)
Yeah.
Shannon Scott (03:43.011)
Yeah.
Donna Pisani (03:43.587)
Confidence is probably the biggest battle. go back to, went all the way around the mountain. Confidence is the biggest battle, I think. I don't know. What about you? Would you say that was?
Shannon Scott (03:53.025)
I resonate with what you said about having to learn to speak man, not necessarily because the men were saying learn to speak man, but it was the only language in the room. so similar to going to another country and going, I don't speak this language. That has been my experience.
Donna Pisani (04:11.801)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, yes. And then I think oftentimes wondering like, do I have permission to be at this table? And do I have permission? Like, do I have anything to say? Even though you know you do. So speaking with confidence was part of that. So not like just presenting it with like, have a strategy with a question mark at the end, but I have a strategy or I have a thought. And then also knowing that most men
Shannon Scott (04:13.772)
And that's, and it's difficult.
Shannon Scott (04:40.366)
you
Donna Pisani (04:41.241)
don't wanna hear the whole story until you have actually gotten to the point. So learning to get to the point to begin with. Anyways, little things like that were like massive. without losing your femininity.
Shannon Scott (04:46.894)
You
Shannon Scott (04:50.946)
Yes, I am.
Yeah, that's so good. My neighbors have decided to cut their yard as we speak. And so we're going to press on because I find I always find it interesting when we talk about something that is so needed and necessary for a moment. Something always happens on the podcast to try to distract from that. So I'm just calling that out and saying we're pressing on.
Donna Pisani (05:03.303)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (05:18.899)
Good, as women, we're pressing on.
Shannon Scott (05:21.423)
Exactly. So you talk a lot about this Hebrew word, this concept of Henene. So I would love for you to talk about that. It figures predominantly throughout the book. But what does it mean, and why is it important, and how do I, with such a Southern accent, say it correctly?
Donna Pisani (05:41.253)
I don't know that I'm saying it correctly too. It is Hinene. Actually, I'm not even sure. Here's the thing is I've tried to, you how you can do it on your phone, like how do you actually say this like five times?
Shannon Scott (05:55.096)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Pisani (05:55.961)
times 50. But literally what it means is such a sacred term. And so it literally means here I am. And it is a word that meant a lot to me because oftentimes when you're trying to understand what the battle is, or God is giving you a new concept, you can constantly be saying, well, why is this happening? Or why, why, why, when a really great posture is just here I am. So if we look throughout the scriptures, it was a very sacred term. was often used at a pivot point in somebody's life when
God was about to transition them. And this here am I, so if we look at Abraham, we look at Moses, we look at Jacob, we look at Isaiah when Isaiah was in the temple and he saw the the train of the glory of God in the temple, his response
when he was overwhelmed because it was political unrest at that time. His response to what God was doing was, okay, I don't know what you're doing, but here I am. It's a point of surrender. And even Paul said this. So I just think that for all of us, I oftentimes want to cling to what was, and I'd love to have control. I have like a PhD in control.
I'm a recovering control freak. But the best response is just here am I? Okay, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm gonna surrender to that. So that's why I felt it was important at the end of every chapter to put that so we could have this moment of God speak to me, here I am, do what you wanna do in this space. so I just think it's that living that life of surrender, like our leadership probably should, I want my leadership to be marked with surrender.
So I think that's probably me.
Shannon Scott (07:36.565)
Yeah, I love what you talk about it being at a pivot point, like because at pivot points is when we are most likely to want to grasp for that control, or at least I am. When things are feeling steady and I feel like I know what's going on, I can kind of keep the control freak tendencies at bay, but at a pivot point or sensing that a change of season is coming, then that...
That is the time to be even more intentionally surrendered. I love that. Before we get to I actually pulled several quotes that I was just like, whoa, out of the book. So I'd love to talk through those with you. But before we get there, you also ask in the book, you ask women to ponder the difference between entitlement and entrustment. And you mentioned it a minute ago. And I'd love for you just to dig a little deeper on that for us, because this is so important.
Donna Pisani (08:04.836)
Yeah.
Donna Pisani (08:28.707)
Yeah, and it is the foundation theme throughout the book along with Hanene. Just one more thing about Hanene, Shannon. What was mind blowing to me is that our Here I Am is only in response to God's first saying to us, here I am, I'm here for you. I'm not gonna leave you alone.
Shannon Scott (08:45.41)
Hmm.
Donna Pisani (08:46.583)
And to me, like when I remember that it's not just an action that is separated from who he is, but in response to who he is, then it changes everything. And so then that leads us into entitled and entrusted. So I don't think that I would have ever considered myself entitled because I always looked at entitlement as being like the ego driven.
you know, the leader who's or the young person or whoever it is, you feel real entitled and that is ego driven. So you feel like you are entitled to a position or you're entitled to more money or you're entitled to be heard. And so I don't know that I ever felt like that, but there's two aspects of entitlement. And this was, this again was mind blowing to me. So entitlement also, also carries this piece where insecurity
reigns. And so the insecurity fuels a scarcity mentality. So anybody listening who doesn't know what that is, it literally means if only I had more fill in the blank, smart enough, beautiful enough money enough.
platform enough, then I could fill in the blank, do what God's asking me to do. And so we feel entitled to more before we start. And we fail to realize that oftentimes the entrustment that God gives us is not always gonna come looking like an oak tree. Like you want it to be the fruit tree filled with fruit, but the entrustment most of the time comes looking like a seed.
that we have to be willing to see, first of all, God has entrusted me with this. And the other piece of entrustment, none of us have leadership, none of us have gifts, none of us have anything. Like you may be the most gifted person in the world, but whether you realize it not, those are gifts that God put in you, that God has entrusted you with. And it's remembering the cost. So.
Donna Pisani (10:32.709)
You know, 2000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross, he paid the price for whatever you've been entrusted with. And then it kind of flips the narrative on, do I really want to hide this? Paul says, I think it's in Corinthians, I don't want to waste the grace. I don't want to waste the entrustment that was paid for at a huge cost. So when I started realizing that the gifts God had given me were God given, then I didn't.
The comparison thing that I like really ran my life, because you always see somebody else's highlight reel and you forget, you know, they had a behind the scenes just like you do. Then I started realizing that I had to actually invest the entrustment.
And it's that flip, I don't care who you are. You're gonna be in the biggest battles of your life and you're gonna start feeling entitled to more. Like God, if you would only answer me, if you'd only remove this battle, if you'd only, and then entitlement. It's a battle you're gonna have to face as whatever you're called to for the rest of your life. And it's common to humanity. It goes back to the beginning. So.
Shannon Scott (11:36.256)
that's so good investing it. Yeah, that it's one thing to say Jesus died on the cross for everything I've ever done wrong. It's it's another thing to say and also for the gifts that I have been given and my freedom to exercise them and use them because of what he paid for. Whoo, that is that is profound. That is profound. So
Donna Pisani (11:45.881)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (11:56.025)
really good Shannon.
Shannon Scott (12:00.48)
Just a few of the quotes out of this book that I was like brackets underlined. You said leadership is not a position you achieve but a calling you receive. And I would love for you to talk about this because I think, you know, there are women listening who are thinking, well, this doesn't apply to me because I'm not on staff in a church or I'm not quote leading a ministry. But I would argue.
All of us are leading someone, even if just ourselves, and something in our sphere of influence. So what does it look like that leadership is not a position you achieve, but a calling you receive?
Donna Pisani (12:41.189)
It's really good. Again, we are.
all entrusted with something. So whether you're a stay at home mom and you're homeschooling your kids or whether you're, you know, a checkout girl at the grocery store working at Starbucks or you're a or whether you are in a leadership position, we all influence somebody all the time. And so that's why throughout the book, Ashley Shannon, I interchange the word leadership with influence because I think sometimes we're unaware of the influence that we have. For instance, my daughter is currently serving at Capital Grill. That's her
job right now in between her entrepreneurial escapades. And she came home last night, she was telling me how every table she talks to, God uses her to speak into them. Or there's like a whole group of these other waitresses that are now asking my daughter to start a Bible study. It doesn't matter who you are, what you are, you represent Jesus, if you're following him. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're following Jesus, that in itself,
means that you're influencing others, guiding them home towards him. I think no matter what you're doing is not looking at it as insignificant, but that God's hand is on your life for a reason. And I wake up every morning, I'm like, who am I supposed to see? And what am I supposed to say? Because every one of us, God's going to connect us with something or somebody. So yeah.
And again, it's God given. You're not fighting for the corner office. You're not fighting for the position. Otherwise, we have an entitled chip on our shoulder. And we become angry because we're not getting what we think we should get. So it's a posture of servant leadership, Yeah.
Shannon Scott (14:30.946)
Whoo, you're reading our mail. So yeah, would say to people listening, if you're thinking, when I get fill in the blank position, then I'll be a leader, then the encouragement obviously is to rethink and reframe how you think about leadership and how are you leading and being faithful to the calling you've received right where you are, because you're already leading. That's so good.
Donna Pisani (14:43.055)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (14:57.434)
Yeah.
Shannon Scott (14:58.86)
Which leads into the next quote that I underlined. You don't need permission to step into the leadership role God has prepared for you. You only need to embrace the call. So if someone is going, okay, I know that God has given me something and I need to step into it. What does it look like for people to embrace the calling?
Donna Pisani (15:19.973)
You know, I actually, I think that God will daily give us opportunities to lead. Now you may not consider it leadership, but Jesus defines leadership as serving. So he's gonna give you daily opportunities to serve. What I have discovered Shannon, and I'm sure you have too, is that some of the greatest opportunities I have come dressed like an obstacle. So the biggest obstacle I'm facing,
whatever it is, like I don't know whether it's financial, whether it's in a relationship, whether it's a person or your kids. I've discovered that wrapped up inside of that. when I start asking God, what does he want me to do? So I tell a story in the book about early in the early days when I didn't have a lot of confidence in what I was doing. I just saw this one disadvantaged neighborhood near our church that had a bunch of kids that
we're either being raised by grandparents or their parents were drug addicts. And so our heart went out to this community. And honestly, I was trying to put this role on somebody else and nobody else would do it. Or at least they didn't do it the way I thought it should be done. So I actually just rolled up into the neighborhood and opened the back of my car, my van blasted hip hop music.
Had bags of food to give to the neighborhood and my four kids and we just started like sidewalk Sunday school We just start teaching the kids about Jesus Well, they they were coming to know Jesus and then their parents were coming to know Jesus and this little neighborhood was being transformed Because there was a problem That I was like Lord, how can I serve you and how can I serve this neighborhood? And so I think probably the best way to discover that is just like what is around you that you can put your hand to and I felt incredibly
not qualified. I didn't even know. I didn't know anything. I said said so many things that were faux pas and like the wrong thing a million times. But people felt my love and my concern. And so it transformed neighborhood but transformed me and it started forming leadership capacity within me. Beyond what I could have imagined. It was just loving people honestly. So was that your question? I guess the story for Okay.
Shannon Scott (17:33.246)
So good. Yes. No, no, no, it's so good. you're doing a phenomenal job of just leading into the next question. So I love that you didn't have these in advance, but it's perfectly working.
Donna Pisani (17:45.39)
Okay, good.
Shannon Scott (17:50.644)
You said the greatest barrier to effective leadership is often the internal narrative we believe about ourselves. And I would say that that is absolutely something I have found to be true. I'd love for you just to talk a little bit about that.
Donna Pisani (18:06.371)
Yeah, I, in the book, share that I was sexually abused as a young, between the ages of three and four. And that affected me in a negative way. So what I heard my whole life in the back of my head was that this, because I was told this when it happened, was that, don't tell anybody, nobody will believe you. So that...
evolved into the lie don't have a voice. Nobody wants to hear what you have to say. And then the second part of that was that it happened because I was too beautiful to resist. So then beauty was painful. And so unbeknownst to me, I carried these lies. So I would call them little t truths that became a truth to me that I believed about myself. And so but what I have discovered Shannon is that
I would say 98 % of the time. What lie is meant to be an indicator? Every lie that you hear, I believe, is an indicator of a calling behind it.
rather than an intimidator. So the enemy used those lies with this narrative in my head because shame was attached to it. So I could be in a room. could have nothing to do in that room. And I would say, I'm sorry for whatever. It's almost like I was sorry for existing. Do you know what? Because shame is the soundtrack that we often hear. It's, think, a soundtrack that all of humanity from the beginning garden has had to deal with. And again, it's wrapped up and entrusted and entitled.
If we're not careful, the shame narrative becomes truth to us and as it did for me until one day I was like, wait a minute, why is enemy fighting so hard against my voice? And I really literally heard God speak to me because I've given you a voice and he knows the ravic, the havoc that you will.
Donna Pisani (19:55.267)
just like wreck hell when you start using your voice. And so for some of us, the shame over the past, the failures, the fear, whatever it is that you're facing, the shame wants to keep you silent. And God has actually placed his voice in your voice. He's actually equipped you with a voice. There's not one woman alive who has not been given a voice by God. So.
Shannon Scott (20:23.719)
Yeah, I like that you said these little t truths. I often tell women the voice of the enemy, the accuser is not always going to sound like this, know, dragon or demon kind of personification. It will often sound like your own voice because when we
Donna Pisani (20:45.465)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (20:47.244)
believe a lie long enough, it starts to sound true. so I want to read that quote again, the greatest barrier to effective leadership is often the internal narrative we believe about ourselves. And so,
Every one of you listening and watching knows what the narrative is that plays over and over and over. And I think it's so interesting that you draw the connection, the parallel between the place where we often struggle with the biggest accusations and lies is usually attached to our calling. Because why would the enemy waste time on things that are not intended to beat back the kingdom of darkness?
Donna Pisani (21:23.439)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (21:31.2)
So take some inventory, take stock of what you believe about yourself and maybe have believed for so long that you don't even recognize it as a lie anymore and try to get, Donna, you went back to ages three and four. Like that is a long journey back to find the source of the lie and get it dealt with. ooh, gives me chills. That is so good.
Donna Pisani (21:55.449)
Yeah, and I do think to your point, Shannon, I think what I did and I think what we should do is take a minute, like make a list of what you are listening to and what you believe about yourself. And if it does not infuse hope, then it's a lie because anything God speaks over you is going to have hope attached to it. And so make a list of those lies. And then what I did to help.
Because you can't just silence a lie, you have to replace it. So then I put reminders on my phone five times a day, there were alarms that came up. And as the alarm came up, it has what God says that counters that lie. So five times a day. So the first one was you have I've given you a voice. You have value and worth like just going back to the basics of refuting the lies till pretty soon you're changing the synapses in your brain and you're actually believing what God says about you.
There's an action point to it. You can't just be like today I'm going to silence it. You have to replace it.
Shannon Scott (22:55.212)
Yeah, you said if it doesn't infuse hope, it's a lie. I mean, what a great filter over the things that we are telling ourselves all the time. you know, obviously I'm not a man, so I don't know this, but I have talked to my husband at length about this and he said, I do not have this kind of ongoing and really,
Donna Pisani (22:59.823)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (23:05.093)
You
Shannon Scott (23:21.336)
critical voice going on in my head all the time. just doesn't, he's like most often it is a track of music or a guitar solo. Like there are certainly doubts and fears and things that go on in his head, but he doesn't have the near constant diatribe that I do going on in my head. And so women, this may be specifically for us, but if it doesn't infuse hope, it's a lie and it's not from your heavenly father. And a lie can't
just be silenced it has to be replaced. that is so good that the action has to be there.
Donna Pisani (23:57.743)
Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (23:58.83)
So the next quote, this hits home with me, everybody knows I'm a perfectionist. I used to say recovering perfectionist. I'm not sure if I'll ever recover from it, but you said, God never calls us to lead from a place of perfection, but from a place of vulnerability and grace. So talk about why that is. Even as we know scriptures that say, be holy as your father in heaven is holy, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.
God is not asking us to be perfect in the sense of sinless as he is, but why do vulnerability and grace make much better places to lead from?
Donna Pisani (24:39.813)
really good Shannon, because Dennis and I grew up in a leadership environment where you did try to project perfection. You didn't want the people you were leading to see any cracks in your veneer. But I think what was so powerful to me is you know, there's a lot of quotes on social media, whatever they're like, you are enough. You are enough in yourself. And while that's beautiful, it's it's kind of not true. I think God created us with
this feeling of not enough. Because I know myself if I like in areas that I feel super like I don't need any help. Those are the areas I'm not asking God for help. And that limits my ability and my capacity. But when I'm in a space where I don't feel enough, it makes me lean into God who is more than enough.
who then takes what I have and takes it to a kingdom advantage or takes it to a divine place or a sacred or holy place, where way more is done than what I can do in my own strength. And I look at Adam and Eve as the origination of that because they...
felt like the enemy comes to Eve and says, hey, if God was good, basically saying this, then he would let you eat from any tree. And there's one tree you can't. And she forgets, which is the huge forest and garden she's already been given. And all of those trees and all she can see is the one thing she doesn't have. And so I think that in that space, then they're hiding in shape. I think in that space,
probably the answer, why are they hiding from God? He was the source. They were already made in his image. They already looked like him. They already had everything they needed. I think probably the response God was looking for was to turn towards him and say, hey, I'm feeling like there's something missing. Can you clarify this for me? But they didn't. They tried to become their own.
Donna Pisani (26:33.131)
Sovereign really by doing it in their own strength. So all of us whether you're listening today Wherever you are you that feeling of not enough is not meant to silence you It's meant to make you lean into God to find his more enough and then he transforms you into who he's he already knows you to be so I think it's important that we Find our confidence in God and that what's running our life isn't perfection
Because we're never going to, the only perfection in our life is where God's involved. Right? It's perfection that he sees that.
Shannon Scott (27:08.194)
Yeah, it's that's, I love that you said. Yes, absolutely. I love that you said out loud that you're more than enough or you're already enough like is beautiful. It's just not true because you know, and some would argue and there's lots of semantics here that it's like, no, but we've been given the righteousness of Christ. So we are perfect and we are enough. Yes, but I don't want to.
Donna Pisani (27:24.377)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (27:35.714)
in Christ.
Shannon Scott (27:37.45)
Yes, I don't want to go into anything thinking, well, God's already given me everything I need, so I'm good. That place of dependence is where the power is. So I'm really glad that you said that. And so I'm yes and amening that.
Donna Pisani (27:48.975)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (27:52.6)
Yes, and intimacy, because I think what it develops is an intimacy with God, right? So vulnerability is the best, because especially in today's world, I don't want to hear you should. I want to hear me too. And when you start sharing your vulnerability and your authenticity, I talk about this in the book too, that the greatest leaders are those who are not the smartest.
but they put smart people in. You don't ever want to be the smartest person in the room. You want to be vulnerable enough to surround yourself and confident enough to surround yourself with people that are smarter than you are and ask good questions. But vulnerability and authenticity, it's the only way to lead right now. I think there's a generation that's super tired of the veneer.
Shannon Scott (28:37.814)
Yeah, well, and again, as you do artistically, that leads to the next thing to lead well is to lead with a heart of service and not self promotion. I, I agree with you that people are more than exhausted from self promotion. And there are, I will say for myself, this is just vulnerably just being honest, the
Donna Pisani (28:44.95)
Okay.
Shannon Scott (29:06.11)
even starting a podcast was hard for me because I knew there would have to be promotion in it and so I thought well I'll just I'll just only interview people and never do an episode alone and then I can promote other people and never have to promote myself and then my team was like but you're a bible teacher and you need to also share alone and I was like
And so it's still, I'm just being honest enough to say it still bothers me because of the, I don't want to ever promote myself, but I do want to be faithful with what's been entrusted to me. And I know that you feel the same way. So what does it look like to carry that tension well of doing what God's asked you to do and putting it out there, but not being self-promoting?
Donna Pisani (29:57.527)
It's so hard. I know because like the book just came out and so the publishers like can you post more blah blah blah. I'm like god if you don't breathe on this book. I mean I was obedient I said yes to write it if you don't breathe on it. I'm not gonna. I hate self promotion. Remind me the question again Shannon.
Shannon Scott (30:15.06)
Yeah, no. And you said to lead well is to lead with a heart of service and it's not self promotion. And so when it does, I mean, I feel what you're saying when people are saying we need you to promote this, like my sweet team is like, you need to promote the Christmas event, you need to promote this and promote that. And they're right. And I want to die also. So it's like, how do you find the heart of service and kind of reject the self promotion?
Donna Pisani (30:19.616)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (30:24.58)
Yeah.
Donna Pisani (30:38.137)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (30:45.221)
really good. I think it goes back to heart motivation. So like, I know you, Shannon, I have the same wrestle that you do. But it's why am I promoting this? Because I want to be seen? am I promoting this? Because in my heart of hearts, I just want women or men to be touched by the message that's on my life or that God has entrusted me with. And I think that whole posture is everything. So then that leads towards
this humility piece of like, and at the end of the day, like, I just want to stand in front of Jesus. And I don't want to lose sight of eternity. So when I stand everything I do today, I'm always reflecting on when I stand in front of Jesus, is he gonna say well done? And and not every day. And he's gonna say well done at the end of the day because
I'm working through my heart posture. Does that mean I didn't get mad at the barista at Starbucks because they took way too long? Because we're in Texas now and everything takes longer. Like it took us two months to get a driver's license. So I'm like, I don't know. At the end of the day, what's my heart posture? And can I start the day and end the day?
Shannon Scott (31:39.309)
you
Donna Pisani (31:50.691)
with Hanehne, here I am. I'm sorry, screwed up again. I'm coming to you. There's no condemnation wrapped around this. There's just this purity and vulnerability that God, hate doing this. So unless you show me how to do it and you breathe on it, I'm not going to. I'm at the end of the day. This was the biggest mindblower to me when I was in my doctoral program was my lead mentor, Dr. Leonard Sweet had this whole he's like in this room with
some really amazing leaders, male leaders that are like leading large churches. And he said to us, and this was the mind blowing piece, he said, God hasn't called you to lead, he's called you to follow, you have an assignment of leadership. And when we look at the whatever God's asking us to do as an assignment from him, we hold it differently. So if I feel called to leadership,
then I kind of, if I'm not careful, I can own it. Does that make sense? But if it's a God given assignment, then my posture is different. And then when I started, I got really irritated because I've spent my whole life studying leadership. Because as a female, I just wanted to be the best.
Shannon Scott (32:52.684)
Yes.
Donna Pisani (33:02.585)
I didn't, I wanted to come to the table, prepared it, I didn't want come and sound like an idiot. I wanted to come. And so I was so irritated. was like, really, I've spent my whole life on leadership. And I started researching it and the word leaders only mentioned four times in the gospels and the term follower or is mentioned over 40. So that means it's 10 times more important to learn how to follow first before you learn how to lead.
And I think that's where the authenticity and the vulnerability comes is like, you gave me this assignment. I'm holding it like this with open hands. What am I supposed to do with it? So today, what's the message? I now always feel Shannon like you, like if I'm going to share something, I want it to speak to somebody. I want it to be a God word. so there's not a self-promotion piece about it. But that's the way you are too.
So, and I think the heart behind this, so for anybody listening, you're on social media and you're trying to build your platform, just be really careful about your heart motivation behind that. And we can all say, well, yeah, we wanna reach people for Jesus, but take a minute to assess why do you wanna be seen and why do you wanna be heard? So, and from Shannon, who's been in this for a while, as well as me, it's not worth it. You want your, you know.
Shannon Scott (34:20.002)
Yeah, no.
Donna Pisani (34:21.923)
Also on the same token, don't shy back and be like, well, God, you, you know, sometimes you just got to post things, right? So.
Shannon Scott (34:29.463)
Yeah. Yes. That darn algorithm. Well, and you say, you say, and I think we've heard this before. In fact, I've heard this a lot, but in this book, it was much more profound to me this time around. I will just say, you said God equips the called, not the other way around. And so that also reduces the amount of hustle pressure I feel when I go.
Donna Pisani (34:34.02)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (34:58.612)
what am I called to and I am confident that God will equip me in it rather than do what you're good at or that sort of thing. If God is equipping me for the calling he has placed on me then it reduces my need to feel like I've got to hustle my way into whatever it is that he wants to do.
Donna Pisani (35:20.069)
Yeah, yeah, like tell me like for me if I start feeling the hustle inside I immediately pull back like what what am I supposed to be doing this? That doesn't mean that you're there's not gonna be times I mean I find almost all the time God puts me in a space probably Shannon you found this to he puts you in a space that's way bigger than you are where you have to step out in faith and you oftentimes are like I don't even know if I'm qualified to do this but God's like I'm gonna grow you in the process but if you feel this hustle to be seen
Shannon Scott (35:27.043)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Pisani (35:50.767)
Like if you're serving in some way and you're like, nobody's noticing what I'm doing and it's defeating you, then look at your heart motivation behind that, I think. But Shannon, how have you dealt with that?
Shannon Scott (36:03.254)
I mean, frankly, I have not, quote, stepped out on my own in the sense of not just been part of a church staff until now, and I'm 48, you know? So it's like, I have thought often about the, it's God's responsibility. I think it was Beth Moore that said a long time ago,
my responsibility is to obey. It's God's responsibility, everything that happens after that. And so I'm in a posture right now and in a season right now of, okay, God, I'm doing what I know, what my husband has confirmed, what my circle has confirmed is the next right step for me. But you're responsible for everything after that. Whatever you want to do with my obedience, whatever you want to do with this conversation with Pastor Donna, that's up to you. I can only do what's right in front of me.
Donna Pisani (36:50.469)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (37:00.078)
I also get a lot of counsel because I don't trust myself and the way that I view things. I get people I trust who know me and who know things to speak in. I'll also say I had a friend of mine on the podcast, Dr. Jason Young, and he talked about as far as hustling and striving and those things that we reject as feeling unspiritual. He said,
to everything there is a season, just like this whole podcast purpose. And there are seasons for hard work and, you know, anytime you're writing a book or creating an event or doing a thing, whatever it is leading up to it, there's a season of really hard work and really hard engagement. And then there is always the, there should be the release and the season of, okay, that's not the season for that right now. So I try to pay attention to for me, am I doing
What only I can do, am I being obedient to what I believe God's put in me? And do I see a season coming where the ebb will replace the flow? And then I just have to turn it over, you know? I can't spend too much time in my head about it or I defeat myself pretty quickly. So.
Donna Pisani (38:21.025)
Yeah, no, the same. That's really good. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (38:25.862)
And then the last quote that I wrote and I have found this to be true just even in leadership of people especially other women. True leadership is about creating space for others to rise not about elevating yourself. So would you just talk a little bit about that and along with it let's kind of narrow the focus a little bit to what it's like for women who are in ministry leadership positions usually in the local church but it can be para church as well.
What does it look like to create space for others to rise without elevating yourself, but also just the challenges that you have seen women face as leaders in ministry?
Donna Pisani (39:06.531)
Yeah, again, I think it's just intentionality. and I have heard, haven't, maybe I have seen it, but I think I've been blessed to not have seen it too much, but I've heard over and over again how women can sometimes be, because there's not a lot of positions available, so sometimes you can be like.
Well, I want to make sure I don't lose my position. So I'm going to give you so much influence, but I'm going to be careful how much and it comes out of insecurity. But I think a couple things. I think you have to work on being confident in the scriptures talks about in I think it's in Hebrews. Don't throw away your confidence. Right. So that means you can either throw it away or you can build it. And how you build your confidence is
building a relationship with Christ and knowing that he sees you and he's the promoter, not you. And then just being really intentional about speaking life over other women. We are a tribe of women. are shoulder to shoulder. have a whole chapter that talks about the women that Paul celebrates that he led with. Like when you understand the original context in Greek, it's mind blowing. We only look at Paul as being like the corrector and the instructor, but we fail to see how he defined women. And Romans 16 talks about these 12 women that he led with.
on their shoulders and then there are women in the early church first 300 years that were martyred for their faith we stand on their shoulders there are women that have paid the price
you know, through the centuries and we stand on their shoulders. And so it's like, sometimes I think you can lose sight of the cost that was paid for us to have what we have right now. And considering like, who shoulders do you stand on? Shannon, I know there's girls that are standing on your shoulders and the places that you pioneered as a female in leadership, but then also thinking, I want to lead in a way the other stand on my shoulders, because what that means is I paid the price. I don't, I don't want them just walking on the same level. I want them
Donna Pisani (41:02.981)
I want them seeing further. I want them experiencing way more than I did because it's still a changing and transforming landscape for women. so, and again, I go back to, and this is really why I wrote the book was this whole understanding that Jesus spoke, Jesus appeared to a female first. Was that like, I knew that.
But Peter, I hadn't thought about the fact that Peter and John had just been there. And it wasn't like Jesus was having coffee and he was like, shoot, I missed the moment. Mary's just there doing women's things. He was intentional because he was in the second garden with Mary redeeming what happened in the first garden with Adam and Eve.
Jesus the seed of Eve had just crushed the head of the enemy. And the first thing he does is he gives Mary a voice and I believe it's all women for all time, a voice and what did he put in their mouth? And this is important to know when you're building up other women. He put, said, go tell my brothers that I've risen from the dead. So basically he's put resurrection in your mouth and simply not just resurrection as the event, the cross, the resurrection.
but as a verb. So we get to as women, we've been commissioned by the head of the church to speak life over graveyards, to speak life over dead situations. And so I would say that when you're leading other women or anybody for that matter, that your primary goal should be speaking resurrection and speaking hope and recognize, see the person and.
God, what do you have for them? How can I help pull out of them their entrustment? The rippling effect of that is massive. Generations will be affected by the resurrection that you speak. So you don't have to protect your space or your role, maybe even her. And I'm so sorry for that. But honestly, be the woman who's speaking resurrection, because there's no limit to what God can do.
Shannon Scott (43:01.126)
Ooh, I, you know, over the last several years and with a group of people I've been walking through, what does it look like for women in the church? How do we understand Paul's teaching and the several verses that get used as a bat rather than a balm for women? And on that journey, so many have made the point the first person Jesus entrusted the message of the resurrection to was a woman.
Donna Pisani (43:12.197)
and
Donna Pisani (43:29.889)
I know. I know.
Shannon Scott (43:31.18)
But I also, I teach women all the time that we are atmosphere shapers. And we're not atmosphere shapers instead of men, but we are atmosphere shapers in a very intentional way differently than men. And the power of life and death is in the tongue. And women, historically, if not surrendered to the spirit, do the most death with our tongue.
Donna Pisani (43:51.0)
us.
Shannon Scott (43:59.276)
Back to what you said at the beginning of the podcast, where the enemy accuses and where the enemy tempts and where the enemy tries to side swipe is connected to our calling. And so may we be people who are no longer doing death with our tongue because we have been given the message of resurrection with our tongue.
And so the atmospheres that can be shaped by women who are following Christ and who are speaking life everywhere they go, that gives me chills, the change that can come. And I love the way that you carry this message. I told you I was sitting at Kerygma just like standing in the back of the theater trying not to yell, preach, because you do...
Donna Pisani (44:19.319)
Yeah.
Shannon Scott (44:46.37)
carry this in a way that does not feel like I am woman hear me roar. It feels like I'm confident in the calling that God has given to women and to me and I'm going to deliver that. So I just I want to thank you for that. You're you're the best. So in this book, this is interesting, you urge women to find their own kind of smart.
Donna Pisani (45:01.027)
Thanks.
Shannon Scott (45:12.022)
So I wonder if you can just talk about that a little bit. I want everyone to buy the book. I'm gonna put it in the show notes, how did you find, what does that mean? And then how did you find your own kind of smart?
Donna Pisani (45:24.485)
It's really great, Shannon. Yeah, I know, because I do write this in the book that I lived my whole life feeling just two brain cells short of smart. Because I always thought, because I thought there was just one definition for smart. I thought it was academic and I hated school. I failed. I mean, I practically hardly made it through school. I excelled in art and voice. So I just thought I could get married.
Shannon Scott (45:33.934)
Mm.
Shannon Scott (45:52.534)
You
Donna Pisani (45:54.115)
And life would be easy. But I was discovering that God has equipped each of us with our own unique entrustment, and that smart can look different. So you may feel like, well, I don't have academic smart. Well, that's fine. But you probably have an ability to make everybody feel connected. So you may.
that may be your strength, may be your gift set, may be hospitality, may be when you're talking about Shannon with the atmosphere, it may be raising kids, you know, I don't know what, but it's not disqualifying how you're kind of smart looks, but actually embracing it. And so a couple ways that you can do that is just make a list like where
Where do I find the most joy? Where is it easy for me to use what I've been given? And then you can ask the question, like, how can I use that in my current situation? Like, at work, at home, wherever that is, how can I serve other people with that gift? I mean, I do in that chapter where I talk about this and uncover this a bit, I do have some action items at the end,
Find, whether you believe in the enneagram or not, it's not meant to define you, but it just helps you understand you or your strengths finders or any of those things that help you discover a little bit more about yourself because it's really the story of the talents. Don't compare your one talent, what you think is one talent, and hide it compared to everybody else's three and five. So I did end up going back to college in my 50s, and I loved it, and I aced it because it was things I loved.
Shannon Scott (47:30.424)
go.
Donna Pisani (47:38.679)
And so I think don't, and every woman I've talked to, could encourage you, consider going back to college once you know what you want. I think when we're in high school, we don't know who we are. So everybody is smart. You just have to find your kind of smart. So.
Shannon Scott (47:54.979)
Yeah, that's so good. I love that. So I want to thank you first of all, before we do our last question, just for this book, everyone listening and watching read this book. If you are a woman, it is required reading. And like I said, it's not just for if you're in a quote, traditional ministry position or on a church staff or those sorts of things. Read this book because you are a female.
You have been entrusted with something. You are your own kind of smart that God has given you. And there's a calling on your life. And you've been given resurrection to speak. And the way that you're going to speak that resurrection is through that calling that's on your life. So get this book, get this book, get this book. And follow Dr. Passani on Instagram. All the ways that you can follow her, follow her because it's an encouragement and an exhortation. And I've loved it. So.
Donna Pisani (48:39.503)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (48:54.082)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for talking about interested to lead. Yeah, yes. So our last question that I ask all my guests before we sign off, because this is the Everything Made Beautiful podcast, we believe that in quote bad times as well as good times, God is in the process of making everything beautiful. He's a restorer, a repairer of the breach and.
Donna Pisani (48:55.407)
Thank you. That means the world to me. Thank you.
Shannon Scott (49:20.117)
It may be beauty that only he sees on this side of eternity, but that we'll all see one day. And so everything made beautiful leads us to our last question, which is, if you could design an architect your perfect, beautiful day, what would it look like from start to finish? And it can be anything, and there's no restrictions on the day. If you just got to say, this is my perfect, beautiful day, what would it look like?
Donna Pisani (49:49.069)
Well, I think first of all, I'm hanging out with my grandkids because they live on the East Coast and we live in Texas now. But I would say I love reading. I love reading rooms. love it would be amazing to me to sit in maybe an old bookstore that has seating and smells like books. I'm a nerd now that I'm 65 and I just love reading with a good cup of cappuccino or
Shannon Scott (49:54.06)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Pisani (50:19.213)
And then, so start the day that way. And then it would be awesome to be on a date night with my husband in a great restaurant on a beach. If you can do all those things wrapped up in a day. So yeah, that's what I love. I just, I love quiet moments and then I love family and I do love the ocean. So that would be a perfect day. How about you? How about you Shannon?
Shannon Scott (50:30.71)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Shannon Scott (50:42.146)
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Shannon Scott (50:48.07)
I like that you noted the way that books smell. That is definitely my idea of a perfect day. would have told you initially that I had to be at home for my perfect day, but now that I've got kids moving out of my house, I realize that really wherever my tribe is, I can feel like home. But I do need coffee topped with whipped cream. I need a really great
Donna Pisani (51:11.013)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (51:16.77)
blanket and a fireplace and my dogs to go with my people. Really anything that we're doing after that, whether it's games or watching movies or reading books or just having deep conversation is perfect for me. So that's what I would do. Yeah.
Donna Pisani (51:19.397)
I'm
Donna Pisani (51:30.575)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. I would love a cup of coffee with you then. So it sounds good.
Shannon Scott (51:36.301)
Yes, yes. Like I just I started topping it with whip and now when it doesn't have it, just is a disappointment. So, you know, that's my that's my every morning. So well, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so excited that we got to have this conversation and I know it will be so helpful for people who have listened. I always pray before a podcast releases that.
Donna Pisani (51:48.517)
a bit.
Shannon Scott (52:00.386)
the right people would be hearing this and that it would be a word in season for them. And so if you're listening, know that you have been prayed for and that this was for you. So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us and setting aside this time.
Donna Pisani (52:14.703)
Thank you, Shannon. It has been such a huge honor. just adore you. Thank you for inviting me.
Shannon Scott (52:20.258)
Yes, absolutely. Well, I hope that you listening have a beautiful day and that you will keep looking around you for all the ways that God is making everything beautiful, including you. And we will see you next time.