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I think companies of all sizes can benefit from Kubernetes.

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Like the, the line people like to use is, you know, you are not Google.

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You don't have Google size problems.

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You don't need Google size solutions.

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Welcome to fork around and find out the podcast about

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building, running, and maintaining software and systems.

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Welcome to fork around and find out the most

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animated infrastructure podcast on the internet.

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I am Justin Garrison and with me is Autumn Nash.

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And today's guest is Sam Rose.

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Welcome to the show, Sam.

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Hey, thank you for having me.

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I've been waiting for this episode because Sam's animation fire, like I love

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art and technical and when that like comes together, it makes me so happy.

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And I want to get into that so bad, but I want to first talk to Sam

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about Where you've been before, what you're doing now, because I did

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not know that you were doing this crazy, awesome animation as in your

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back end engineer, like you're just like, Oh, no, this is on the side.

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I don't know how to do JavaScript.

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I mean, you just did a lot of JavaScript.

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Yeah, this surprises a bunch of people.

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My background is almost entirely back end infrastructure, devopsy kind of thing.

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So I started.

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my career way back in like 2012.

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Oh, I feel so old.

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Don't say it.

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I feel old now and I'm getting like gray bits in my beard.

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Like the tides are turning, but like 2012 Ruby shop doing rails and stuff like

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that way back when, uh, I think Ruby was kind of hitting its peak, like 2010.

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It's very on brand.

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Yeah.

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2012 Ruby rails.

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Everyone was doing it.

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Then no JS came out of nowhere and things kind of shifted.

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But back then, yeah, working for an ad company mostly.

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And then.

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I went from there through like an acquisition.

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To another company I didn't stay long at.

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It was a bit of a, not like hostile acquisition,

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but it wasn't very nice for everybody involved.

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I think it was fairly clear that we were

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required for technology, not for people.

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So over the course of a year, most of it left there.

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But then, I ended up getting what I thought at the time was my dream job.

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So I worked at Google for four years.

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Uh, I joined as a Site Reliability Engineer on the Android team.

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Stayed in that for two years and then did two years

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of software engineering on the Android Studio team.

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Afterwards, and like at the time, this was probably a little

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bit after what people would call the golden years of Google.

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Like, I think, uh, it had already begun a bit of a decline in public

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perception, but it was still an incredibly good place to work.

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And I learned a ton of things.

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I'd say probably the main thing I learned after the four

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years there was big companies aren't really my thing.

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I did the initial switch away from site reliability

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engineering to software engineering because I'd missed

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writing code a bit, like as a site reliability engineer.

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At least on the team I was on, the things I was doing,

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not an enormous number of opportunities to get to get into

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code and write features that users will end up seeing.

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And I missed doing that.

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What were you reliability in, uh, on the, on Android as a, as a site?

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Like, cause that's, those are, that's a phone operating system.

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The phone

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talks to a whole bunch of stuff.

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Uh, so at the time, the Android SRE team was split into two halves.

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So there was the, the Play SRE team, which took care

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of the Play Store and everything related to that.

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And then there was what was called the Cloud SRE team.

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And this is all ancient history now.

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These things have changed substantially.

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But we were responsible for The phone backup system, the authentication system.

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So the thing that maintains your Google login all

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times, we were on call for the push notification system.

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I think by far the biggest thing we were on call for, we

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were on call for a couple of like the device OTA system.

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The thing that told your phone it needs to

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update a couple of the smaller things like that.

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Those are kind of the main hits.

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The two that I focus most of my time on

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was the backup system and the auth system.

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So the team.

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There were kind of six of us in London and then the six over in the U. S. and

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people kind of specialized on each of these services because these services.

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It's Google, they're huge, like, they serve hundreds of

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thousands, if not millions of queries a second and it's hard

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to specialize in all of them, so I took backup and auth.

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My main, I would say, like, crowning achievement while I was

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there was taking both of those services from two nines to four

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nines of reliability, uh, through, like, lots of iterative change,

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working with dev teams, capacity planning, tweaking code paths

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to be more reliable, quite a lot of, Small nitty gritty things.

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So that's broadly what I was responsible for when I was at Google.

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Now, I mean, usually going from 2 to 3 nines is

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like, we can just write some better software, right?

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But going from 3 to 4 is a lot bigger lifts

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and usually involves more process, right?

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Because going from 4 to 5 is definitely like the people side of things.

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It's not necessarily your code is just amazing.

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It's, we handle this better.

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But you said you weren't writing a lot of code.

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You said you wanted to get out of SRE.

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Because you weren't writing code.

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So, uh, kind of

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user end, like, uh, end user features is the stuff that I was

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kind of interested in, rather than, like, trawling through.

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Tons of logs to find some specific error that's caused by some race

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condition somewhere like that's fun But it's not fun six months of the year.

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It's kind of interesting going this like four nines to five nines It's

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very challenging But the fun thing for us there was there's really

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no point in doing it because the the telcos themselves were not five

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nines So there was no point being more reliable than the network.

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These phones were operating on So we we never saw five

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nines of the goal for most of the stuff on Android

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That's interesting that the phones weren't as reliable.

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So you had to almost kind of walk back

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how much you were expected to be reliable.

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Yeah, it was nice.

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It was, it was almost like a freeing thing that we had these kind of slightly

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lower reliability targets than some of the other core Google services.

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And just being able to calculate that out of just

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like, Oh, the thing I rely on is not reliable.

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So I'm not going to try to like beat it.

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And people often move to the cloud and they're like, I'm getting five nines.

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I'm like, the service you're using is three.

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Good luck.

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Right?

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Like, this is not, this is not going to add up.

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Right.

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I don't think people realize that there's different

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reliability for services versus like the cloud in general.

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Like, I don't think people actually realize that.

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Can you explain what being an SRE like at Google was?

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Because I think like being an engineer on a release team.

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and building language is so different than the traditional SCE job.

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So I think, like, it would be interesting to hear what, like, your

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SRE job was, versus being, like, doing software development, you know?

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The SRE job at Google, as I experienced it, and it does differ between teams.

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So Google, for example, If you're working on some core service that

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everyone depends on, so say you're in like a networking SRE or something

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like that, your life is very different than if you're working on like

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product based things like Android, which is more of a product based thing.

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But there's a lot of looking into the future, so a

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lot of kind of capacity planning, like can we service

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the expected growth over the next 6, 12, 24 months.

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There was quite a lot of communicating with development teams, say

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if, if something in our monitoring starts to like kind of break down.

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strange or unexpected because maybe some

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release or something unexpected has happened.

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We will kind of work with dev teams to help them understand

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how that was affected by changes they may have made.

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There was an aspect of you were encouraged to, how do they phrase it?

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Something like automate yourself out of a job every 18 months

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or something like that was one of the taglines they had.

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So it's like, whatever you're doing now, there should be a percentage of your

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time dedicated to making sure you don't have to be doing that in 18 months time.

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In my experience, that was more of a, a wishful kind of

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goal than something that happened regularly in practice.

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Some teams certainly achieved it occasionally, but I think

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most people were still doing the same stuff 24 months

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after that they were doing, 18 months prior to that.

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It was a lot of almost babysitting, but I mean that like, I think

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that has some negative connotations associated with it, but it

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was, it was like, there's gotta be a better word for this here.

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Uh, not championing, not like, You are, you are the person

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like responsible for this being a reliable service, right?

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You are like the vanguard, you know?

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Like anything, like anything getting in the way of the

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service being as reliable as it needs to be is on you.

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And the way you are babysitting them,

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because you're keeping it alive.

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For sure.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Being on call is a big part of the job as well.

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So, uh, on call like roughly a third of the time.

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And nobody that I have worked for before or

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since does on call quite as well as Google does.

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Just in terms of sort of emotional well being, I guess.

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So you're never on call 24 7.

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There's a limit to how much on call you can do in a given amount of time.

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You're always paid for on call.

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So it's a very fair system.

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Every so many hours of on call that you do, you get an hour of time off in lieu.

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So I would End up racking up something like 35 to 40 days worth of time

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off in lieu over the course of a year and just take big blocks of time.

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Yeah.

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I'm And time off, which is really nice.

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Yeah.

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It's like, I'll, I'll see you

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And you have to be, you know, mindful of the team and, and what

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everyone else's responsibilities are, but you don't want to kind

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of put like furloughs on subsets of people, but, but you wouldn't

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be, you said not on call over 24.

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Twenty four seven.

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So is that like just waking hours?

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Like you're never on call when you're supposed to be asleep?

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The, the way that we did it was

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in the UK it was 7:00 AM 7:00 PM.

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during the week.

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So actually, no, the weekends as well.

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It's, it's, um, and then four hours of that

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12 hour, uh, is what you're being paid for.

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You didn't get paid for time where you were in work.

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So during the week, you're getting four hours a day of time off in lieu time.

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It wasn't actually, it didn't directly correlate to four hours, but

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then the weekend was the full 12 hour block would count as paid time.

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So yeah, 12 hour shifts.

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And then you switch over to the U S.

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That's wildly fair compared to most big companies on call.

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And I almost think that it's like a buy in, you know?

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On call sucks, but when you get the time off and paid and all of that, and

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you're not being on for 24 seven, you'd probably have a better attitude

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towards your on call, but you also wouldn't be burnt out from on call.

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So you'd probably be a lot better at your job.

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Completely agree.

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And then the atmosphere in site reliability engineering, really good.

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And I miss it a lot.

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I will be honest, I think people really cared for each other.

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People really cared about the workload you had, and they really

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cared about how much Because not all on call shifts are born equal.

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Like, you know, you could be dealing with a week of absolutely

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nothing, like nothing goes wrong, which would be great.

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It's rare, but it's great.

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Or you could be dealing with like the worst outage you've ever seen.

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Right.

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And then maybe you had scheduled where you're covering somebody

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else's shift the week after that, and then you completely burn out.

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So you don't want to do that.

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People are generally really good at making sure everyone's okay.

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And the education aspect of being an SRE at Google,

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seconds to none, like anything I've experienced this.

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There's so much material that's been produced to help you onboard as

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an SRE, and teams will have kind of personalized material for that team

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for, you know, we care about these things, here's the onboarding doc,

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here's some onboarding videos, you know, we'll, if you want to, we can

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sit through it together and whiteboard it out and things like that.

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Really, really good, and I've not seen anything like it since.

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Documentation and run books can make or break an on call like shift, right?

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It's like, Oh, if I don't have a run book for this

241
00:10:55,445 --> 00:10:57,625
alert, like I don't make me start from scratch.

242
00:10:57,675 --> 00:10:59,075
Like that is just so hard.

243
00:10:59,095 --> 00:11:02,085
And yeah, teams don't invest enough in that.

244
00:11:02,835 --> 00:11:04,685
One of the things that I remember from the SRE

245
00:11:04,685 --> 00:11:06,254
book, cause this is, I mean, SRE book came out.

246
00:11:06,390 --> 00:11:08,069
Like 20 18, 20 19.

247
00:11:08,370 --> 00:11:10,684
And you were probably there during this like . I I was there.

248
00:11:10,684 --> 00:11:10,685
Yeah.

249
00:11:10,689 --> 00:11:10,795
Yeah.

250
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:11,160
I have my

251
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:11,939
free copy of it.

252
00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:14,130
. 
One of the things that I always point out to people that

253
00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:17,340
are trying to start an SRE team is, is from the book.

254
00:11:17,340 --> 00:11:19,530
I say the, the thing that Google, at least from the

255
00:11:19,530 --> 00:11:23,189
outside in the books did, was they gave the SRE team power.

256
00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:25,510
to say, we're not going to support your service.

257
00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:28,240
In the book, it says that like you are embedded on a product team.

258
00:11:28,430 --> 00:11:30,460
If the services are not reliable enough, SRE can

259
00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:33,059
pull out and say like, Hey, you're on your own now.

260
00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:34,520
Dev team, go do your own thing.

261
00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:36,040
Is that how you experienced it?

262
00:11:36,079 --> 00:11:38,110
Is that actually whatever happened?

263
00:11:38,110 --> 00:11:41,139
It sounds like you were embedded full time with Android backups.

264
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:41,630
It

265
00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:45,570
is true that SRE gets quite a lot of autonomy in what they do and don't support.

266
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:48,050
And I was involved in a fair number of what

267
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:49,620
they call production readiness reviews.

268
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:53,040
So you might imagine, um, there's a much smaller number of

269
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,950
SREs than can reasonably look after all of Google's services.

270
00:11:55,950 --> 00:11:58,790
You know, Google runs an incomprehensible number of services and production.

271
00:11:59,340 --> 00:12:01,400
And at the time when I was there, there was

272
00:12:01,470 --> 00:12:03,520
like, you know, a few thousand SREs globally.

273
00:12:03,959 --> 00:12:06,789
So it was kind of rationed out, I guess.

274
00:12:06,809 --> 00:12:09,760
Like, you couldn't come to SRE and ask for support unless

275
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,080
you had something that was a pretty critical service.

276
00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:17,055
And the process for being onboarded into an SRE team Was this

277
00:12:17,064 --> 00:12:20,824
production readiness review where SREs would sit with you, you know,

278
00:12:20,824 --> 00:12:23,385
you'd whiteboard the architecture, you talk about how it works,

279
00:12:23,415 --> 00:12:26,554
you kind of, as an SRE, you'd read through the code of the service.

280
00:12:26,694 --> 00:12:30,175
And generally speaking, Google services are fairly like homogenous.

281
00:12:30,314 --> 00:12:32,795
There are accepted ways of writing applications such that you

282
00:12:32,814 --> 00:12:36,125
know roughly your way around anything that comes your way.

283
00:12:36,985 --> 00:12:37,985
I'm not sure how it is now.

284
00:12:38,135 --> 00:12:40,454
I'm imagining like my ex colleagues at Google

285
00:12:40,454 --> 00:12:42,155
laughing at me now because things have really changed.

286
00:12:42,165 --> 00:12:43,855
But back in the days, it's kind of how it was.

287
00:12:43,855 --> 00:12:44,584
And it wasn't perfect.

288
00:12:44,765 --> 00:12:48,310
There was certainly edge cases and weirdness and, you know, been

289
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:50,470
on call for plenty of things that made no sense at the time.

290
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:53,800
But the broad idea was there was a process you went through to get

291
00:12:53,849 --> 00:12:56,969
SRE support, and I did two or three of those while I was there.

292
00:12:56,969 --> 00:12:59,019
They're very intense, like, they take quite a long time.

293
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,820
You end up iterating with the team that you're working with.

294
00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:04,309
Like, it's not a yes no process.

295
00:13:04,309 --> 00:13:07,405
It's usually a It's almost like a car MOT where it's

296
00:13:07,405 --> 00:13:10,435
like, these things need fixing before we'll support you.

297
00:13:10,435 --> 00:13:12,694
But if you do fix them and we'll work with you, then we

298
00:13:12,694 --> 00:13:14,965
will onboard you as a, as a product we're on call for.

299
00:13:15,244 --> 00:13:18,015
I never experienced the pager going back the other way.

300
00:13:18,255 --> 00:13:21,164
So this is referred to as taking the pager and giving back the pager.

301
00:13:21,545 --> 00:13:24,770
So I've never seen The page of being given back.

302
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:28,080
I've, I've, I'm not sure I like the threats of it, to be honest.

303
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,760
I know some teams threatened it more than others as a way to kind of

304
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,860
get teams to pay attention and do things that they want to prioritize.

305
00:13:35,860 --> 00:13:37,820
I didn't particularly like that practice.

306
00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:40,090
It felt way too adversarial to me.

307
00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:44,200
I think it's good to build up trust with the teams that you work with.

308
00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,700
One of the pain points on some of the products I was

309
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,880
working on was they, they didn't get full time dev support.

310
00:13:50,249 --> 00:13:52,170
So backup and auth at the time.

311
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:54,850
There were long periods of time where they were considered, you know,

312
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,670
maintenance projects and the devs were working on something new and exciting.

313
00:13:58,710 --> 00:14:00,550
So it was sometimes very difficult to get dev.

314
00:14:01,244 --> 00:14:04,055
Time and buy into to work on stuff that needed it from

315
00:14:04,055 --> 00:14:07,994
reading the book, a lot of companies, the thing I saw that they did

316
00:14:08,045 --> 00:14:11,905
wrong was they're like, Oh, look, we renamed our sysadmins to DevOps.

317
00:14:11,935 --> 00:14:14,604
And now we renamed them from DevOps to SRE.

318
00:14:14,604 --> 00:14:15,794
And I'm like, you didn't change.

319
00:14:15,834 --> 00:14:16,984
You didn't give them any power.

320
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,320
You didn't give them any authority over what the devs were

321
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,700
shipping over the products, what the services they were running.

322
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,700
They were just on call for it and it was just another wall between dev and ops.

323
00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:28,860
And the thing that I always pointed out to

324
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:30,139
people when they're like, we're doing SRE now.

325
00:14:30,139 --> 00:14:32,079
I'm like, what power does SRE have?

326
00:14:32,299 --> 00:14:33,779
Can SRE say no?

327
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,449
If they can't say no, it's not SRE.

328
00:14:35,570 --> 00:14:37,000
It's just sparkly dev ops.

329
00:14:37,770 --> 00:14:39,640
And that was always the point where I, I always push

330
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,230
back on companies that were like, we have SRE now.

331
00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:43,200
I'm like, if you're doing this to pay them more money.

332
00:14:43,545 --> 00:14:44,045
Fine.

333
00:14:44,465 --> 00:14:46,194
That you should pay them more money.

334
00:14:46,194 --> 00:14:46,704
They're on call.

335
00:14:46,704 --> 00:14:47,135
They're doing stuff.

336
00:14:47,145 --> 00:14:48,605
Or again, like give them trade offs, right?

337
00:14:48,605 --> 00:14:50,645
Like give them some time off at Disney plus.

338
00:14:50,645 --> 00:14:53,204
Like we, every on call shift we had, we get a day off.

339
00:14:53,204 --> 00:14:56,435
So it's like we would rotate on Thursdays and we'd get Friday off.

340
00:14:56,505 --> 00:14:57,704
And it was just like part of our rotation.

341
00:14:57,704 --> 00:14:59,314
We're like, Hey, you take Friday off.

342
00:14:59,324 --> 00:15:00,634
If you were on call, I was an

343
00:15:00,665 --> 00:15:01,895
engineer at the wrong company.

344
00:15:01,895 --> 00:15:02,885
In

345
00:15:02,885 --> 00:15:04,585
that time off, like it's.

346
00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:06,920
It's not a complete, you know, one to one sort

347
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,630
of like, we didn't, we didn't track it as well.

348
00:15:08,630 --> 00:15:09,459
It sounds like you did.

349
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,779
And we were on call over overnights or whatever, but it was

350
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:15,770
like, Hey, if I'm on call, I know that I get the Friday off.

351
00:15:15,770 --> 00:15:16,709
I get a three day weekend.

352
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,860
And that three day weekend is really helpful to get stuff

353
00:15:19,860 --> 00:15:22,389
done, to be able to go out and not carry my laptop with

354
00:15:22,390 --> 00:15:24,590
me and go do some stuff during the day or something.

355
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:26,069
That stuff really does help.

356
00:15:26,390 --> 00:15:27,880
Do you feel like you ever automated?

357
00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:30,480
yourself out of having good documentation

358
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,520
or is Google really good at documentation?

359
00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:36,370
Because I think like sometimes when you're building infrastructure

360
00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:40,719
or kind of in the, I won't say SRE because I wasn't an SRE, but

361
00:15:40,719 --> 00:15:43,549
kind of like in the releasing or just kind of infrastructure and

362
00:15:43,549 --> 00:15:47,950
keeping everything up and going, automation is so heavily focused

363
00:15:47,950 --> 00:15:51,990
on that people forget to actually document it and teach others well.

364
00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:56,610
So like, do you think that with that push of automation, do you

365
00:15:56,610 --> 00:15:59,830
feel like they still balance it out really well with documentation?

366
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,800
There was a meme at the time, and I'm sure it still exists,

367
00:16:02,839 --> 00:16:06,050
where some documentation would refer to as strawberries, and it

368
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,500
harked back to a photograph from one of the canteens at Google.

369
00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:11,989
I forget what it was now, but there was something

370
00:16:11,989 --> 00:16:13,510
labeled as strawberries, and they weren't.

371
00:16:13,510 --> 00:16:15,680
It was like pears or oranges or something like that.

372
00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:19,270
The meme was like, you know, this documentation is a strawberry

373
00:16:19,270 --> 00:16:21,510
because, you know, it's outdated now or things have changed.

374
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:23,510
Google's not immune to these things.

375
00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:26,320
Like the, there's plenty of outdated documentation

376
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,049
and there's plenty of situations where.

377
00:16:28,905 --> 00:16:30,545
You'll be following some docs and something doesn't

378
00:16:30,545 --> 00:16:32,744
work because the world has shifted from under you.

379
00:16:33,334 --> 00:16:36,655
I'd say it's probably better than most companies I've worked at, but

380
00:16:36,664 --> 00:16:40,474
there was still, you probably wouldn't go like more than a couple of weeks

381
00:16:40,484 --> 00:16:44,275
without finding some bad documentation somewhere, but there really was.

382
00:16:46,844 --> 00:16:50,314
It was considered important and if you found outdated documentation and you

383
00:16:50,314 --> 00:16:53,474
said to your boss or your team, I'm going to take a day and it should really

384
00:16:53,474 --> 00:16:56,634
go over this and make sure it's right, then people generally didn't argue.

385
00:16:56,634 --> 00:16:58,724
So I think the culture around documentation was

386
00:16:58,724 --> 00:17:01,114
really good, but the actual documentation itself.

387
00:17:02,250 --> 00:17:02,980
Sometimes not great.

388
00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:05,750
I think that's kind of like as good as you're going to get though,

389
00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:08,709
because the world literally does change underneath your feet, you know?

390
00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:11,319
So I think that's actually like really cool to hear that they

391
00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:15,000
incentivized almost documentation and gave you the space to do it.

392
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,269
Because I think a lot of times when engineers are trying to get promoted

393
00:17:19,269 --> 00:17:23,359
or you come in new to the engineering role, there's no incentive to do.

394
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:28,140
The maintenance work or, you know, fixing something that's important for

395
00:17:28,140 --> 00:17:33,290
security or documenting things like there are a lot of important jobs that

396
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:37,570
we need to do outside of writing code and none of those are incentivized.

397
00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:41,190
So trying to get people to, like, do, like, the hygiene of things is so

398
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:45,770
hard because it's not incentivized towards promotion or getting leadership

399
00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:49,150
to look at you and but they're very important parts of being an engineer.

400
00:17:49,150 --> 00:17:49,930
So that's pretty cool.

401
00:17:50,445 --> 00:17:51,575
Yeah, no, I agree.

402
00:17:52,235 --> 00:17:56,645
At the time I was there, there was this attempt in, like, shift of

403
00:17:56,645 --> 00:18:02,065
mindset on what work counts towards promotion and how it's weighted.

404
00:18:02,535 --> 00:18:05,545
And, uh, the internal line was, we need more of a

405
00:18:05,545 --> 00:18:08,304
focus on landing projects than launching projects.

406
00:18:08,315 --> 00:18:10,229
And I thought that was quite good, like, It's

407
00:18:10,230 --> 00:18:13,070
pithy and nice and it evokes a good, a good visual.

408
00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:14,460
I don't know like how well that went.

409
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:17,820
I, I, I think I left shortly after that was a big thing and becoming a thing.

410
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:20,920
I've talked to friends I have still there probably a few years

411
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,130
ago at this point and I'm led to believe things have really

412
00:18:23,130 --> 00:18:25,989
shifted for the better in that direction, so I'm optimistic.

413
00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:29,700
I think it's so rad that you did SRE and you were so,

414
00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:34,520
like, back in, deeply technical, but your blog just reads

415
00:18:34,550 --> 00:18:37,850
as the most warm and fuzzy thing that I've ever read.

416
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:42,020
I felt like I almost got to know, like, a little bit just with, like, your

417
00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:45,949
little, like, one paragraph, and it's condensed in, like, what, four sentences?

418
00:18:46,410 --> 00:18:49,320
But it's, like, I just knew you were nice from this paragraph.

419
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,340
Like, I just felt warm and fuzzy from four sentences.

420
00:18:52,774 --> 00:18:55,625
And usually like, I think we get this kind of like rep that

421
00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:58,235
engineers are like not warm and fuzzy and that they don't like

422
00:18:58,235 --> 00:19:01,324
people, but that's like the warmest fuzziest thing I've ever read.

423
00:19:01,504 --> 00:19:05,554
I also don't like wasps and I buy way too many more books than I can read.

424
00:19:05,554 --> 00:19:07,655
I was like, me and Sam are gonna be friends.

425
00:19:07,655 --> 00:19:07,985
Like

426
00:19:10,175 --> 00:19:11,975
. 
I, um, no thank you very much.

427
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:12,784
I, I also, the

428
00:19:12,784 --> 00:19:17,735
buttons work on your like , sorry, I had to fan girl over that.

429
00:19:18,595 --> 00:19:20,395
type in Moo, MOO.

430
00:19:20,770 --> 00:19:20,890
Oh

431
00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:21,310
my gosh.

432
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:23,990
There's a whole bunch of Easter eggs

433
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:24,240
in there.

434
00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:27,470
Oh boy, that is absolutely ridiculous.

435
00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:30,490
Obviously it's a terrible audio show.

436
00:19:30,499 --> 00:19:31,880
If you go to samhu.

437
00:19:31,910 --> 00:19:34,669
dev, Sam's websites, he has a little keyboard on top, a

438
00:19:34,669 --> 00:19:37,649
little like six key keypad, and in the buttons you can

439
00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:39,359
hover over them, and then you can also click on them.

440
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,569
And if you type M O O, I'm going to let you

441
00:19:41,579 --> 00:19:43,029
go to his website and figure out what happens.

442
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:43,340
This is the

443
00:19:43,340 --> 00:19:44,092
coolest personal website.

444
00:19:44,092 --> 00:19:46,348
Like you do this in your spare time, dude?

445
00:19:46,348 --> 00:19:47,419
Like what do you mean?

446
00:19:47,819 --> 00:19:47,919
Yeah.

447
00:19:47,929 --> 00:19:49,079
Like mine's is so ugly.

448
00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:50,459
Like this is so great.

449
00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:53,710
Wait, before, before we dive into that completely, you

450
00:19:53,710 --> 00:19:55,880
went from SRE at Google, then you went to the Android team.

451
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,300
It sounds like you're writing a lot of Java.

452
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,889
Like in general, was this, yeah, it sounds like a lot of Java here.

453
00:20:01,340 --> 00:20:02,499
I'm a Java apologist.

454
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:08,239
I think I, I still think Java is a nice language let down by a bad tool set.

455
00:20:08,289 --> 00:20:09,309
That's what I normally say.

456
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:10,010
Ooh, I like

457
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:10,670
that take.

458
00:20:10,820 --> 00:20:13,800
That is, that is the, that is like the mid take on Java.

459
00:20:14,830 --> 00:20:15,820
It's not really spicy.

460
00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,570
It's like, yeah, no, it sounds about right.

461
00:20:17,925 --> 00:20:20,605
All the other JVM type languages try to improve

462
00:20:20,605 --> 00:20:22,075
the tools more than the language, right?

463
00:20:22,075 --> 00:20:25,895
Like the Kotlins, the Scalas, the other things around it seem

464
00:20:25,895 --> 00:20:28,475
like the toolchains are better, or at least more opinionated.

465
00:20:28,714 --> 00:20:30,215
They're more Ruby on Rails.

466
00:20:30,424 --> 00:20:31,654
Yeah, the toolchains get better.

467
00:20:31,655 --> 00:20:34,904
I think the languages do try and work around some of the shortcomings of Java.

468
00:20:34,904 --> 00:20:37,625
Like Kotlin, for example, is far more terse, and it's

469
00:20:38,125 --> 00:20:41,005
got this whole co routine focus that Java doesn't

470
00:20:41,005 --> 00:20:41,174
have.

471
00:20:41,175 --> 00:20:43,575
Kotlin's like, Java got jealous of Python.

472
00:20:43,674 --> 00:20:45,035
It was like, well, we're gonna do that too.

473
00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:47,600
Okay, like I was kind of let down by Kotlin though.

474
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,880
And it's not that I don't like it, but I love Java and I love Python, right?

475
00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:55,209
And I felt like Kotlin was going to be like, if Java and

476
00:20:55,209 --> 00:21:00,430
Python had a baby and I got like readable, like easier Java.

477
00:21:00,774 --> 00:21:01,685
And I did not.

478
00:21:01,695 --> 00:21:02,655
I got a blob.

479
00:21:02,675 --> 00:21:05,854
Like, it's, the structure is one of the best parts about

480
00:21:05,854 --> 00:21:08,485
Java and I just felt like Kotlin, when you try to read,

481
00:21:08,955 --> 00:21:12,684
like, a big repository of Kotlin, it's just a blob.

482
00:21:12,854 --> 00:21:17,824
I unfortunately have a biased opinion of Kotlin, because I worked on

483
00:21:17,834 --> 00:21:22,955
the Kotlin support in Android Studio, and it was, Nightmarishly hard.

484
00:21:22,985 --> 00:21:25,044
Yeah, it was really challenging.

485
00:21:25,044 --> 00:21:29,514
So, so, I have never used Kotlin in like a fun

486
00:21:29,554 --> 00:21:32,514
context where like I'm playing with it for the joy.

487
00:21:33,215 --> 00:21:35,054
It's always been, you know, incremental

488
00:21:35,064 --> 00:21:37,804
compilation produces completely invalid bytecode.

489
00:21:37,824 --> 00:21:39,274
What am I gonna do, you know?

490
00:21:39,384 --> 00:21:42,465
It's, uh, it's unfortunate I can't have an unbiased opinion of it.

491
00:21:42,465 --> 00:21:45,784
But from what I saw, like, the goals looked pretty noble.

492
00:21:45,824 --> 00:21:48,754
I think at the time, at least, anyway, I remember Java 8 coming out,

493
00:21:49,144 --> 00:21:52,744
and there was this, like, resurgence, I think, in the syntax of Java.

494
00:21:52,764 --> 00:21:54,954
Like, they, they, I think Java 8 was the first time they

495
00:21:54,955 --> 00:21:58,004
really started to try and make the syntax into more modern.

496
00:21:58,245 --> 00:22:01,405
So I think they got the, they got lambdas for the first time, like

497
00:22:01,405 --> 00:22:04,395
actual like nice usable lambdas in Java 8, if I remember correctly.

498
00:22:04,665 --> 00:22:07,074
And then Java 9, they brought the module system in, which broke a whole

499
00:22:07,075 --> 00:22:09,644
bunch of stuff, but it was in service of trying to make things nicer.

500
00:22:10,084 --> 00:22:12,525
And since then, they seem to have really been putting a huge

501
00:22:12,525 --> 00:22:15,634
amount of effort into making it a much nicer language to use.

502
00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:18,895
And I think of a lot of people that tried Java back in like the 1.

503
00:22:18,895 --> 00:22:22,055
7 days, tried it now, they'd probably find it a lot more pleasant.

504
00:22:22,145 --> 00:22:25,085
I don't think it's got the same velocity problems that it used to have.

505
00:22:25,275 --> 00:22:27,594
I think it probably is 2 OOP.

506
00:22:27,949 --> 00:22:31,540
Like, it would be nice if, like, bare functions were a thing and stuff

507
00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:34,360
like that, but, uh, broadly speaking, I think it's a very nice language.

508
00:22:34,540 --> 00:22:37,240
We need Charlie Marsh to come along and build

509
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,830
UV for Java and just make everything nice.

510
00:22:42,855 --> 00:22:46,345
I think it's gotten better, but I think sometimes Java is very much

511
00:22:46,375 --> 00:22:50,775
part of like the old club of just like suffering, you know, and

512
00:22:50,905 --> 00:22:54,315
people almost want to like, they feel like you have to suffer to hang.

513
00:22:54,484 --> 00:22:56,575
The JVM is something I could say nasty things about.

514
00:22:56,684 --> 00:22:58,925
It's a remarkable piece of technology, but care

515
00:22:58,925 --> 00:23:01,415
and feeding of a JVM in a production environment.

516
00:23:02,305 --> 00:23:03,065
At least way back,

517
00:23:03,065 --> 00:23:04,065
it was really challenging.

518
00:23:04,545 --> 00:23:08,715
From the Ops SRE side, I hate JVM languages because of the JVM, right?

519
00:23:08,715 --> 00:23:10,514
It's just like, oh, I don't care how nice

520
00:23:10,514 --> 00:23:12,495
that language is to write, I hate managing it.

521
00:23:13,095 --> 00:23:14,065
It's a heavy beast.

522
00:23:14,065 --> 00:23:15,034
It does a lot.

523
00:23:15,105 --> 00:23:16,854
It's nicer now with G1.

524
00:23:16,904 --> 00:23:20,684
Like the G1 garbage collector, they, I think, made a good set

525
00:23:20,684 --> 00:23:23,775
of trade offs with it, where there's way fewer knobs to tune.

526
00:23:23,945 --> 00:23:27,635
Tuning the concurrent mark and sweep garbage collector was very, very hard.

527
00:23:27,645 --> 00:23:29,335
It was much more of an art than a science.

528
00:23:29,785 --> 00:23:31,975
You had so many parameters to worry about.

529
00:23:31,975 --> 00:23:33,885
Whereas they released G1.

530
00:23:33,985 --> 00:23:36,235
I think the G1 is still the default garbage

531
00:23:36,235 --> 00:23:38,455
collector, but you get essentially one parameter.

532
00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:43,465
And it is how, how long is the maximum pause your application can, can do.

533
00:23:43,775 --> 00:23:45,704
And you say like 200 milliseconds, and then

534
00:23:45,704 --> 00:23:47,455
it tunes everything around that for you.

535
00:23:47,825 --> 00:23:50,255
So it's a much nicer interface, much nicer

536
00:23:50,565 --> 00:23:52,455
to care for and look after in production.

537
00:23:53,075 --> 00:23:55,675
I just don't know why they don't teach more about

538
00:23:55,685 --> 00:23:58,495
JVMs and garbage collectors in college, you know?

539
00:23:58,545 --> 00:24:02,325
Because I feel like they teach you how to code and use Java, but

540
00:24:02,325 --> 00:24:04,715
like, none of the stuff that you need to know for production.

541
00:24:04,725 --> 00:24:07,015
And I'm like, what's the point of paying 40, 000 for I would

542
00:24:07,125 --> 00:24:11,290
love a, a like College level debugging course, right?

543
00:24:11,290 --> 00:24:13,159
Like I would, like, I would get a whole degree, like,

544
00:24:13,159 --> 00:24:17,810
like, give me GDB, give me S trace, give me logs

545
00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:18,300
and stuff.

546
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:20,939
Like, cause that's like, you pay like so much

547
00:24:20,939 --> 00:24:22,899
money and they're like, this is the fun parts.

548
00:24:22,899 --> 00:24:25,280
And that's like, not even the stuff that you do every day.

549
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,039
Majority of the time, like nobody's writing

550
00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:28,689
a brand new application from scratch.

551
00:24:28,929 --> 00:24:29,499
If anyone

552
00:24:29,589 --> 00:24:33,189
is listening to this debugging course that I think that would be fantastic.

553
00:24:33,209 --> 00:24:34,250
And that is actually something that.

554
00:24:34,455 --> 00:24:38,475
People have asked me to do some things on like S Trace and various like tools.

555
00:24:38,485 --> 00:24:39,564
I was like, it's not a course.

556
00:24:39,564 --> 00:24:41,584
It's like, here's, here's 10 videos on like these

557
00:24:41,584 --> 00:24:43,944
tools or something, but, um, I would love that.

558
00:24:44,564 --> 00:24:45,905
The closest I can think of is

559
00:24:45,905 --> 00:24:48,744
Brendan Gregg's book on debugging and stuff

560
00:24:48,744 --> 00:24:49,865
like that, which is really like, cause he's

561
00:24:49,865 --> 00:24:50,885
a world mentor.

562
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:54,560
I was, I was a reviewer for his second edition and let me tell you,

563
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,500
like it was, it was fantastic and way over my head in many ways.

564
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:00,159
It was like, like the bread is just like, like, I was

565
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,730
like, I know how to do some debugging and I don't know

566
00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:04,959
how I got roped into like, Hey, we want to review this.

567
00:25:04,959 --> 00:25:06,180
I'm like, I would love to review this.

568
00:25:06,209 --> 00:25:08,429
I read the first one and the second one, like I'm

569
00:25:08,429 --> 00:25:10,930
pointing things out and then it was just like, come back.

570
00:25:10,930 --> 00:25:14,004
It's like, no, no, you're wrong because of X, Y, Z. I'm like, Oh, you're right.

571
00:25:14,014 --> 00:25:16,675
Like I thought, I think of this in a different context or different use case.

572
00:25:16,675 --> 00:25:19,925
And yeah, those tools are, are very specific and you

573
00:25:19,925 --> 00:25:22,584
have to know exactly how to use them in the right way.

574
00:25:23,304 --> 00:25:26,034
Onboarding educational material will split into like, you know, very

575
00:25:26,034 --> 00:25:29,424
generic stuff that applies to every SRE then quite team specific stuff.

576
00:25:29,795 --> 00:25:31,974
One of the generic courses that I love the most, and I

577
00:25:31,984 --> 00:25:35,314
think like I've carried a lot from this into my life after

578
00:25:35,314 --> 00:25:38,894
Google was a course given by a guy called Andrew Widdowson.

579
00:25:39,425 --> 00:25:40,325
Andrew Widdowson, sorry.

580
00:25:40,355 --> 00:25:43,655
And he did a How to Reverse Engineer a Production Service.

581
00:25:44,165 --> 00:25:48,205
So it was for people who, it's kind of often that you've got a, an SRE

582
00:25:48,255 --> 00:25:51,675
owned service that talks to a bunch of services, and not SRE owned,

583
00:25:51,675 --> 00:25:53,845
it's just like the nature of things that will eventually happen.

584
00:25:54,265 --> 00:25:57,514
And it's a dependent service that's causing you problems in some

585
00:25:57,514 --> 00:25:59,575
way, like maybe it's not giving you the right responses back,

586
00:25:59,595 --> 00:26:02,105
or maybe it's fully down and you have to try and figure out why.

587
00:26:02,265 --> 00:26:05,505
So very often you'll be reverse engineering a service you've never seen

588
00:26:05,505 --> 00:26:08,375
before in your life, and it'll just tell you, you know, Where do you start?

589
00:26:08,375 --> 00:26:11,084
Like find the entry points, go and Google's got lots of like

590
00:26:11,094 --> 00:26:13,645
Intel debugging tools that are not, not available to the public.

591
00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:16,084
So it's like a masterclass on using those as well.

592
00:26:16,465 --> 00:26:19,084
Really, really thoughtful and methodical.

593
00:26:19,125 --> 00:26:20,625
And I've taken a whole bunch of the.

594
00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:23,540
Lessons from it with me into, into the future.

595
00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:24,990
Like I always now look for entry points.

596
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,160
Like that's the first thing I do.

597
00:26:26,170 --> 00:26:29,760
It's like, how does the, the code path get into this section?

598
00:26:29,790 --> 00:26:31,340
That's not doing the right thing.

599
00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,610
Did you go from Google to build a mess, build a base?

600
00:26:34,729 --> 00:26:35,460
Oh, buddy base.

601
00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:35,749
No, no.

602
00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:39,389
But this is something else we could probably talk about that I

603
00:26:39,399 --> 00:26:43,120
have opinions on is my, I have a very fragmented career history.

604
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,379
Like I, I'm one of these people that, um, I think a lot

605
00:26:45,379 --> 00:26:47,669
of tech influencers would say, I'd just been that CV.

606
00:26:47,679 --> 00:26:49,060
He's been worked at too many places.

607
00:26:49,349 --> 00:26:51,129
I did a little misadventure through FinTech

608
00:26:51,139 --> 00:26:52,764
and FinTech just wasn't really my thing.

609
00:26:52,854 --> 00:26:56,284
Thing, I think I, I got into it for like quite idealistic reasons.

610
00:26:56,794 --> 00:27:00,274
I think ultimately day to day, you're not really helping users financially.

611
00:27:00,274 --> 00:27:03,455
Like, I think there's a, I don't know, it's not that they're like

612
00:27:03,465 --> 00:27:06,484
doing like horrible nefarious things, but it's not as focused

613
00:27:06,484 --> 00:27:09,215
on helping users succeed financially as what I wanted it to be.

614
00:27:09,374 --> 00:27:10,524
So I worked for a couple of banks in the

615
00:27:10,525 --> 00:27:14,764
UK and then I came to BuddyBase after that.

616
00:27:14,764 --> 00:27:19,885
So BuddyBase is a, like a low code app building platform and it's self hostable.

617
00:27:19,885 --> 00:27:20,824
So the idea is.

618
00:27:21,305 --> 00:27:25,125
If you want to build internal tools, like you say, you want to like

619
00:27:25,165 --> 00:27:27,785
put a form in front of something or you want to connect a couple of

620
00:27:27,785 --> 00:27:31,215
databases together and automate certain things in like a, almost like an

621
00:27:31,225 --> 00:27:35,084
IFTTT style way, like thing happens over here, trigger thing over there.

622
00:27:35,524 --> 00:27:37,065
BuddyBase has tools for doing all that stuff.

623
00:27:37,075 --> 00:27:40,735
So you, you spin it up in your own VPC, connect it to your

624
00:27:40,745 --> 00:27:42,975
internal databases without exposing anything to the internet.

625
00:27:43,409 --> 00:27:45,409
You can build forms, you can build applications,

626
00:27:45,409 --> 00:27:46,810
you can put graphs and stuff on it.

627
00:27:46,820 --> 00:27:49,580
It's got like a, not quite like drag and drop, but fairly

628
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:53,350
close to like a, a WYSIWYG editor for, for patching things

629
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:55,770
together and setting up triggers and stuff like that.

630
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:59,740
I'm, I'm just still, uh, getting over the, if this than that

631
00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:01,999
reference, because I don't know how many of our listeners even

632
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,459
know about, like, it's not a, it's not a big thing anymore.

633
00:28:04,459 --> 00:28:04,589
Right.

634
00:28:04,589 --> 00:28:07,019
Cause like you, there's like the really old school, like YouTube

635
00:28:07,030 --> 00:28:09,699
pipes folks that are like, Oh, we did it first over here.

636
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,155
And, and there's a few things in, but like, if this and that, I. feel like

637
00:28:12,155 --> 00:28:16,034
had a very big moment in this, like, Oh, look at all this cool stuff we did.

638
00:28:16,034 --> 00:28:19,305
And then things like Zapier and other things kind

639
00:28:19,305 --> 00:28:22,294
of came in and were like, we do it more of them.

640
00:28:22,294 --> 00:28:23,495
And we give you more flexibility.

641
00:28:23,495 --> 00:28:26,304
If that's not was very, I don't know, user friendly in a lot of ways.

642
00:28:26,564 --> 00:28:27,544
It was very big.

643
00:28:27,605 --> 00:28:30,865
I remember the, everything in the UI was big, it was very big buttons.

644
00:28:30,865 --> 00:28:31,014
Yeah.

645
00:28:31,015 --> 00:28:32,084
Yeah.

646
00:28:32,085 --> 00:28:32,705
Back to BuddyBase.

647
00:28:32,725 --> 00:28:32,925
Like.

648
00:28:33,555 --> 00:28:34,534
You're doing back end there?

649
00:28:34,655 --> 00:28:35,534
Mostly, yes.

650
00:28:35,545 --> 00:28:37,715
So we are entirely TypeScript.

651
00:28:37,725 --> 00:28:39,385
So TypeScript in the back end, TypeScript

652
00:28:39,385 --> 00:28:40,835
in the front end, Svelte in the front end.

653
00:28:41,004 --> 00:28:46,145
I mostly work on Any of the backend end points that the front end will talk to.

654
00:28:46,175 --> 00:28:48,945
And then also kind of care and feeding of our Kubernetes cluster.

655
00:28:49,285 --> 00:28:51,065
What does TypeScript on the backend look like?

656
00:28:51,925 --> 00:28:53,535
A lot like TypeScript on the front end.

657
00:28:53,555 --> 00:28:56,335
It's a, you know, there are certainly some differences

658
00:28:56,335 --> 00:28:58,764
to be aware of, but broadly speaking, it's, it's

659
00:28:59,034 --> 00:29:01,045
just TypeScript, you know, it's nothing tremendously

660
00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:01,445
special.

661
00:29:01,864 --> 00:29:03,764
I mean, the only times that I've really written

662
00:29:03,764 --> 00:29:07,135
TypeScript was for like the AWS CDK and for front ends.

663
00:29:07,195 --> 00:29:08,145
And so like, those are like.

664
00:29:08,455 --> 00:29:12,845
Automation and then the front end stuff, is this like, do you run it with NPM?

665
00:29:12,935 --> 00:29:15,264
Like, is this like a Node app that runs like a TypeScript?

666
00:29:15,314 --> 00:29:16,074
Pretty much, yeah, it's,

667
00:29:16,085 --> 00:29:17,625
it's, it's runs just Node.

668
00:29:17,634 --> 00:29:18,114
js.

669
00:29:18,155 --> 00:29:19,935
You spin up some, uh, we use Koa.

670
00:29:19,964 --> 00:29:23,544
Imagine kind of like Flask, I guess, in Python, where you can

671
00:29:23,544 --> 00:29:27,014
create endpoints and you can have middleware and things like that.

672
00:29:27,034 --> 00:29:29,840
And then you define all of your endpoints as just bare

673
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,420
functions that take a request and return a response.

674
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,390
Is it as frustrating as Flask?

675
00:29:34,450 --> 00:29:36,350
Because I was so excited to be able to use

676
00:29:36,430 --> 00:29:39,690
Python to make like websites and web things.

677
00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:44,400
And then it just felt like beating your head against the wall over and over.

678
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,330
It's one of those technologies, I think,

679
00:29:46,330 --> 00:29:48,500
that it looks amazing on the homepage, right?

680
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:51,080
Like, oh, look how easy it is to get an endpoint up and running.

681
00:29:51,419 --> 00:29:53,810
And then you spend more and more time with it and you realize, oh

682
00:29:53,810 --> 00:29:57,080
no, I need to, I need to start like moving things in separate files.

683
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:58,839
And I need to start having middleware that attaches

684
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,120
to everything and no shade on Flask at all.

685
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,170
I think Flask is fantastic, but I think it does get to a certain

686
00:30:04,210 --> 00:30:08,020
point where you start to have problems that You know, you may

687
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:10,180
not have initially anticipated having, and then you have to

688
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:13,290
start to create solutions that wrap around things in Flask.

689
00:30:13,290 --> 00:30:15,020
And then you get to the point eventually,

690
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:16,590
it's like, damn, I should have used Django.

691
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,990
I love Python, and Flask is, I don't know, it's cool, but

692
00:30:21,030 --> 00:30:23,749
it, the more complex it gets, you're just like, but why?

693
00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:26,380
Yeah, Flask is in that weird middle ground

694
00:30:26,390 --> 00:30:27,600
where it doesn't handle enough things.

695
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,980
It's not quite Ruby on Rails, right?

696
00:30:28,980 --> 00:30:33,220
It's not very opinionated, but it's not low level enough like, like Django.

697
00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:35,369
And so you're like, oh, I want to do this weird escape.

698
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:36,340
Like, yeah, you just got to go.

699
00:30:36,685 --> 00:30:37,565
do your own thing.

700
00:30:37,875 --> 00:30:40,555
I think it's the gluing it together part that is a pain.

701
00:30:40,715 --> 00:30:43,125
You have to make all these different, like, functions

702
00:30:43,145 --> 00:30:45,325
and then trying to make sure that it all works together

703
00:30:45,375 --> 00:30:49,244
and then you put in the CSS and it's just, I don't know.

704
00:30:49,294 --> 00:30:52,875
I guess that's all for now and I'm just a back end person also, but.

705
00:30:53,324 --> 00:30:56,084
For me it's the feeling that there is almost certainly a

706
00:30:56,084 --> 00:30:58,925
correct way the community has landed on for doing this, but

707
00:30:58,925 --> 00:31:02,175
it's not very exposed to me and I have to either come up

708
00:31:02,185 --> 00:31:04,525
with it or go and read other people's code to figure it out.

709
00:31:04,990 --> 00:31:07,080
You, you mentioned briefly there that the backend

710
00:31:07,090 --> 00:31:08,880
you have, you're managing Kubernetes clusters.

711
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:09,130
Yeah.

712
00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:11,720
It's a self hosted thing, but you're like, here, go run it on Kubernetes.

713
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:13,360
So there's a cloud offering, right?

714
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,519
So, uh, you can either self host it if you want to.

715
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,059
And I think most of our customers who are using it kind of commercially do that.

716
00:31:19,170 --> 00:31:21,410
And then if there is a cloud offering that if you

717
00:31:21,410 --> 00:31:23,810
just want to try it, or you have a use case where.

718
00:31:24,275 --> 00:31:27,645
You don't really need to self host it, then we can host it for you.

719
00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:31,065
So we have like a multi tenant deployment of BuddyBase that runs in Kubernetes.

720
00:31:31,065 --> 00:31:33,285
And that's in EKS.

721
00:31:33,314 --> 00:31:35,465
So it's a reasonably like vanilla Kubernetes cluster.

722
00:31:35,465 --> 00:31:37,264
We're not doing anything tremendously fancy with it.

723
00:31:37,314 --> 00:31:39,505
It's just BuddyBase itself is a helm.

724
00:31:39,845 --> 00:31:41,324
We have a helm chart for BuddyBase that you can

725
00:31:41,325 --> 00:31:42,974
go and spin up in your own Kubernetes cluster.

726
00:31:43,305 --> 00:31:45,625
We just run that in our production Kubernetes cluster.

727
00:31:45,855 --> 00:31:49,450
As someone who came from SRE at Google, not necessarily on the

728
00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:52,480
Borg team, but you had infrastructure, internal infrastructure,

729
00:31:52,570 --> 00:31:55,030
probably dealing with a little bit of Borg here and there.

730
00:31:55,030 --> 00:31:57,689
And then going on years later, dealing with Kubernetes.

731
00:31:57,719 --> 00:31:59,589
What's that, what's the difference look like for you?

732
00:32:00,169 --> 00:32:00,899
Using it's very

733
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:01,120
different.

734
00:32:01,270 --> 00:32:03,730
So I, I, I remember how it felt to use Borg.

735
00:32:04,159 --> 00:32:07,820
Uh, when I got to Google and I, you know, I'm in a very

736
00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:10,040
established team, Android's been there for a long time.

737
00:32:10,695 --> 00:32:13,155
You know, there are ways of doing things already, spinning up a new

738
00:32:13,155 --> 00:32:16,965
service, like scaling things up and down, releasing new config changes.

739
00:32:16,965 --> 00:32:19,284
These are all solved problems at this point, that there are kind

740
00:32:19,284 --> 00:32:21,185
of push button solutions for all those things, or, you know,

741
00:32:21,705 --> 00:32:24,815
make a commit with very well known, well structured changes.

742
00:32:24,864 --> 00:32:27,024
I think I'm a Kubernetes apologist as well, I guess.

743
00:32:27,024 --> 00:32:29,094
I think a lot of, it's very fun to hate on Kubernetes.

744
00:32:29,125 --> 00:32:30,045
People love doing it.

745
00:32:30,475 --> 00:32:33,015
Uh, I'm one of these people who I think Kubernetes

746
00:32:33,025 --> 00:32:35,705
is actually really, really good and I like using it.

747
00:32:35,805 --> 00:32:38,725
I started using it, uh, actually, oh man, I forgot, I, I wrote a

748
00:32:38,725 --> 00:32:43,745
Nebula between the FinTech and the BuddyBase sections of my career.

749
00:32:43,745 --> 00:32:47,724
So Nebula, the video streaming platform, it was my first exposure to Kubernetes.

750
00:32:47,764 --> 00:32:52,665
So before I joined Nebula, I bought A couple of Kubernetes books.

751
00:32:52,775 --> 00:32:55,505
Uh, I'm like trying to eyeball them on my shelf, but I can't see them.

752
00:32:55,505 --> 00:32:58,405
So I, it's like Kubernetes best practices or something like that.

753
00:32:58,435 --> 00:33:00,255
Or Kubernetes up and running, I think was one of them.

754
00:33:00,285 --> 00:33:00,865
That was Kelsey's.

755
00:33:00,875 --> 00:33:01,015
Yeah.

756
00:33:01,015 --> 00:33:01,415
First book.

757
00:33:01,475 --> 00:33:01,815
Yeah.

758
00:33:01,815 --> 00:33:02,265
Kelsey's.

759
00:33:02,274 --> 00:33:02,494
Yeah.

760
00:33:02,665 --> 00:33:03,254
I, he was,

761
00:33:03,295 --> 00:33:04,394
I think he was your first guest.

762
00:33:04,575 --> 00:33:06,744
Yeah.

763
00:33:06,745 --> 00:33:07,425
Fantastic.

764
00:33:07,475 --> 00:33:08,665
Really great book.

765
00:33:08,745 --> 00:33:12,755
Like I feel like had I not read that book and I think a lot of the

766
00:33:12,964 --> 00:33:16,345
problems people that complain about Kubernetes might be having here is that

767
00:33:16,355 --> 00:33:20,615
they've not got the grounding in how you're meant to think about and use

768
00:33:20,615 --> 00:33:23,725
Kubernetes, like the importance of labels and selectors and things like that.

769
00:33:23,865 --> 00:33:25,605
It's a very unusual concept.

770
00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:27,375
If you've not come across it before, I think people can get

771
00:33:27,375 --> 00:33:30,115
themselves tied in knots when they're not thinking about it correctly.

772
00:33:30,515 --> 00:33:31,055
It does.

773
00:33:31,270 --> 00:33:33,730
the educational journey in the way that I like to do it as

774
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:36,070
well, which is you start at the very basics and you build on

775
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:39,110
top and you build on top until you get to realistic scenarios.

776
00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:42,389
Actually, I have a bare metal cluster running over in the corner

777
00:33:42,390 --> 00:33:45,030
there in a little server rack, so just like a few Raspberry Pis

778
00:33:45,060 --> 00:33:48,375
kind of wired together as a Kubernetes cluster and I I've been

779
00:33:48,375 --> 00:33:51,225
kind of caring for that for the last like six or seven years now.

780
00:33:51,245 --> 00:33:52,475
I keep it up to date.

781
00:33:52,505 --> 00:33:55,755
I run it as like a high availability cluster, even though it doesn't need to be.

782
00:33:55,764 --> 00:33:57,545
So I get the practice in doing those things.

783
00:33:58,025 --> 00:33:59,785
It's been really fun, a really good learning journey.

784
00:33:59,895 --> 00:34:02,424
All that kind of translates now to what I'm doing at BuddyBase.

785
00:34:02,424 --> 00:34:06,135
So we have an EKS cluster, lots of things managed for us and things like that.

786
00:34:06,145 --> 00:34:10,045
But generally I think companies of all sizes can benefit from Kubernetes.

787
00:34:10,045 --> 00:34:12,865
Like the line people like to use is, you know, you are not Google.

788
00:34:12,865 --> 00:34:14,315
You don't have Google size problems.

789
00:34:14,315 --> 00:34:15,775
You don't need Google size solutions.

790
00:34:16,370 --> 00:34:19,640
I think to missing the point a little bit, I think Kubernetes has

791
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:25,700
become this shared platform for deploying software where if you read

792
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:28,240
Kubernetes up, up and running, you spend the three or four days.

793
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:30,089
It might take an effort to read that and

794
00:34:30,089 --> 00:34:31,549
go through it and go through the examples.

795
00:34:31,965 --> 00:34:36,935
You can now benefit from a massive community of solutions on

796
00:34:36,935 --> 00:34:39,815
top of kubernetes, like you'd get horizontal auto scaling for

797
00:34:39,815 --> 00:34:43,525
free, you can use tools like lens to get this like incredible

798
00:34:43,535 --> 00:34:47,125
dashboard into your cluster for essentially no effort whatsoever.

799
00:34:47,125 --> 00:34:48,904
There's so much stuff out that people have built.

800
00:34:49,365 --> 00:34:52,035
I think it is probably one of the highest velocity

801
00:34:52,035 --> 00:34:54,815
choices you can make early on in your startup journey.

802
00:34:55,115 --> 00:34:57,175
I feel the same way about like rails, right?

803
00:34:57,175 --> 00:34:59,085
Because people are like, Oh, well, like, do you need rails?

804
00:34:59,085 --> 00:34:59,424
Like, I don't know.

805
00:34:59,424 --> 00:35:00,235
What are you trying to do?

806
00:35:00,245 --> 00:35:02,065
It's like, it's a very opinionated tool set, but

807
00:35:02,065 --> 00:35:04,175
the benefit usually comes from the ecosystem.

808
00:35:04,285 --> 00:35:05,475
Not the tool itself, right?

809
00:35:05,475 --> 00:35:09,065
And when I was at Amazon and ECS kept saying, like, we're going

810
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:10,785
to try to compete with Kubernetes, I'm like, no way you're

811
00:35:10,785 --> 00:35:13,755
not like it's don't build the Kubernetes features into ECS.

812
00:35:13,795 --> 00:35:15,335
And it doesn't matter if you have them or not,

813
00:35:15,335 --> 00:35:17,184
because you don't have the ecosystem, right?

814
00:35:17,184 --> 00:35:19,175
Like all of the tooling isn't there for ECS.

815
00:35:19,175 --> 00:35:21,985
It's there for Kubernetes and you're not going to compete with the rest of

816
00:35:21,985 --> 00:35:25,545
the internet's building for this single platform that can be run anywhere.

817
00:35:25,950 --> 00:35:29,200
And so, yeah, I very much agree that like the benefits

818
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,360
of Kubernetes is not necessarily in Kubernetes itself.

819
00:35:31,390 --> 00:35:33,950
It is in being able to learn and onboard people, being able to

820
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:37,270
hire people that's that work on it and are experienced with it.

821
00:35:37,270 --> 00:35:39,169
And just like, oh, you know how Kubernetes works.

822
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:40,560
We might use it a little different.

823
00:35:40,699 --> 00:35:43,000
We don't like Helm charts or we do some other like deployment,

824
00:35:43,019 --> 00:35:46,150
whatever, like a lot of things that people do that can be different.

825
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,550
But the basic fundamentals of it, like, oh, well, there's a

826
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:50,810
controller, there's a CRD, there's some storage, whatever.

827
00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:52,509
Like I can dig into it.

828
00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:53,019
It's like.

829
00:35:53,145 --> 00:35:56,215
The first time that people were going from BSD to Linux, right?

830
00:35:56,215 --> 00:35:58,115
And they're like, Oh, well, like this Linux is

831
00:35:58,115 --> 00:36:00,045
more of a standardized thing in the community.

832
00:36:00,045 --> 00:36:03,215
But this Unix thing is, is enterprise.

833
00:36:03,225 --> 00:36:04,245
It's the reliable thing.

834
00:36:04,245 --> 00:36:05,004
Like everyone's going to do that.

835
00:36:05,004 --> 00:36:07,635
But then like the tools work different and like the philosophies

836
00:36:07,655 --> 00:36:10,014
underneath on those operating systems were different and.

837
00:36:10,265 --> 00:36:12,045
The first time I logged into a BSD system, I

838
00:36:12,045 --> 00:36:13,545
was like, I don't know anything that I'm doing.

839
00:36:13,755 --> 00:36:15,385
Like, none of this makes any sense to me anymore.

840
00:36:15,385 --> 00:36:17,605
Like, yeah, I'm in a terminal, but the

841
00:36:17,605 --> 00:36:19,335
commands don't do what I thought they would do.

842
00:36:19,665 --> 00:36:23,425
And just that, like, mindset of, like, I know how this fundamentally

843
00:36:23,434 --> 00:36:26,275
should work, the philosophies behind it, even if it's used in the

844
00:36:26,275 --> 00:36:30,284
wrong ways, still helps me accelerate being able to be effective.

845
00:36:34,065 --> 00:36:37,355
I think that's also, like, Partially, like when you get something

846
00:36:37,365 --> 00:36:41,015
in open source community and it's well used, like in multiple

847
00:36:41,015 --> 00:36:43,665
places, the more people use things, they're going to create open

848
00:36:43,665 --> 00:36:48,055
source projects to make their problems that they're having easier.

849
00:36:48,155 --> 00:36:50,574
And I think Kubernetes really benefits from that, like the

850
00:36:50,575 --> 00:36:54,215
whole community and the fact that people are using it at like

851
00:36:54,215 --> 00:36:57,125
Google, but they're also using it at multiple other companies.

852
00:36:57,495 --> 00:37:00,385
People are going to build, like they're going to write books, they're

853
00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:04,054
going to do documentation, they're going to build tools to use that.

854
00:37:04,705 --> 00:37:05,325
And that's.

855
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,740
Kind of like hopefully what we, why we continue to fund open source

856
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,960
and, you know, contribute to it because it makes it so much better.

857
00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:16,240
And sometimes people see the surface of

858
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,350
Kubernetes, like this is so big, it's too complex.

859
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,539
And I'm like, do you know the flags for curl?

860
00:37:21,025 --> 00:37:23,245
Have you done looked at the curl man page lately?

861
00:37:23,245 --> 00:37:26,745
Like that is a crazy complex tool that you have

862
00:37:26,745 --> 00:37:29,615
to know 10 percent of right to be effective.

863
00:37:29,615 --> 00:37:32,305
Like you can do most of what you want with a little bit of that tool.

864
00:37:32,315 --> 00:37:33,735
Go to FFM peg, right?

865
00:37:33,735 --> 00:37:33,975
Like this.

866
00:37:34,304 --> 00:37:36,014
I have to Google that every time.

867
00:37:36,014 --> 00:37:38,254
I'm like, I don't know what, what I'm doing next.

868
00:37:38,254 --> 00:37:38,534
Right?

869
00:37:38,535 --> 00:37:39,525
Let me, let me find the.

870
00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:41,020
Incantation for FFmpeg.

871
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:44,700
Those are incredibly complex tools that are also used at large companies

872
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:47,990
and they solve big problems, but I only need a little sliver of it.

873
00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:49,469
And you don't need, you don't have to use the

874
00:37:49,470 --> 00:37:51,959
entire surface area to be effective with it.

875
00:37:52,439 --> 00:37:56,159
I feel like most of the time you only use, like, even with like Linux, there's,

876
00:37:56,219 --> 00:38:01,180
I think I've taken the Linux exam twice and you only use like 10 commands,

877
00:38:01,330 --> 00:38:03,440
go look at everyone's get history.

878
00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:05,730
Like you can run that, like the top commands and they're like.

879
00:38:06,290 --> 00:38:07,340
Eight outta 10 are the same.

880
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:08,750
50% get status

881
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:09,530
over and over again.

882
00:38:09,710 --> 00:38:10,040
yeah.

883
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:12,560
Ls, cd, get status?

884
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:13,160
Yeah, pretty much.

885
00:38:13,370 --> 00:38:16,340
So, so I, I have a, a degree in cs, um, from the

886
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:18,530
sixth West University in the UK doesn't exist anymore.

887
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:21,985
Um, , one of the things I love telling people, one of assignments where

888
00:38:22,085 --> 00:38:28,160
school, one of the isli I got given was past the MAN page of LS and find out.

889
00:38:28,555 --> 00:38:31,325
Every letter of the alphabet not used as a flag.

890
00:38:31,925 --> 00:38:34,005
And I can't remember what the answer is now, but it's very few.

891
00:38:34,035 --> 00:38:36,985
Like almost every single letter of the alphabet is used in LS.

892
00:38:37,165 --> 00:38:38,924
That's a really good activity though, because

893
00:38:38,924 --> 00:38:41,095
then you have to figure out what is used.

894
00:38:41,195 --> 00:38:42,304
That's genius.

895
00:38:42,504 --> 00:38:45,705
Once command lines have minus like dash letter and also

896
00:38:45,705 --> 00:38:48,204
plus letter, like, you know, you're in some trouble, right?

897
00:38:48,205 --> 00:38:51,745
Like once you're like, I'm in the plus flags, this is, this is a bad idea.

898
00:38:52,505 --> 00:38:55,195
I'm pretty sure FFmpeg is, it's just a programming language now.

899
00:38:55,205 --> 00:38:55,525
It's not fine.

900
00:38:55,774 --> 00:38:58,084
I'm sure it's turning complete and you could do whatever you want.

901
00:38:58,710 --> 00:39:00,270
When did you start doing animations?

902
00:39:00,350 --> 00:39:01,230
What got you into that?

903
00:39:01,690 --> 00:39:03,720
Beginning of 2023.

904
00:39:03,830 --> 00:39:05,950
So, so I had been blogging for a long time before that.

905
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,429
I've written some moderately successful pieces here and

906
00:39:09,429 --> 00:39:11,620
there, featured in some newsletters and things like that.

907
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:14,479
But broadly I'd not, I'd not been met with any success when I was blogging.

908
00:39:14,490 --> 00:39:17,855
It's still doing it mostly for me, mostly for Solidifying

909
00:39:18,385 --> 00:39:20,975
the things that I had learnt, uh, I find the process

910
00:39:20,975 --> 00:39:23,475
of writing really does highlight things you don't know.

911
00:39:23,575 --> 00:39:26,545
Like, things you thought you know and you don't know, very, very quickly.

912
00:39:26,925 --> 00:39:29,784
So it's been something I've done for, uh, well over ten years.

913
00:39:29,815 --> 00:39:32,775
And then I got really into the writing of, and I'm

914
00:39:32,775 --> 00:39:35,624
gonna butcher his name, but Bartosz Cieszynowski.

915
00:39:35,624 --> 00:39:39,870
Uh, the guy who does the mechanical watch post, he Recently released the

916
00:39:39,870 --> 00:39:45,340
post on moons, he does these incredible, usually like physics based, so he

917
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:49,390
did the physics of bicycles and the, uh, the, uh, GPS, and these are all

918
00:39:49,390 --> 00:39:56,469
beautiful, 3D visualized, you can interact with every piece of it, he did once

919
00:39:56,470 --> 00:40:01,450
a mechanical watch one, and the internal combustion engine ones, like he's 3D

920
00:40:01,470 --> 00:40:06,099
modeled an entire mechanical watch, and an entire internal combustion engine,

921
00:40:06,475 --> 00:40:10,525
And you can see these exploded views and all the, the parts are color coded.

922
00:40:10,525 --> 00:40:13,025
And I was immediately in love with this.

923
00:40:13,025 --> 00:40:14,705
I thought it was brilliant.

924
00:40:14,755 --> 00:40:19,135
I, you know, I went through all of the combustion engine

925
00:40:19,145 --> 00:40:23,174
mechanical watch, his one on sound, his one on the

926
00:40:23,174 --> 00:40:25,345
moon's one most recently, just couldn't get enough of it.

927
00:40:25,345 --> 00:40:26,715
I thought the style was brilliant.

928
00:40:26,805 --> 00:40:30,015
And I thought to myself, you know, what if that but programming?

929
00:40:30,065 --> 00:40:31,205
Like, like what is that?

930
00:40:31,215 --> 00:40:31,495
But.

931
00:40:31,825 --> 00:40:34,435
Algorithms, uh, or data structures, or whatever.

932
00:40:34,695 --> 00:40:36,675
And I thought to myself, I'm gonna have a go.

933
00:40:37,175 --> 00:40:40,894
I know that I'm not gonna get anywhere near to the quality that he's done.

934
00:40:40,905 --> 00:40:45,005
In my opinion, I think he is probably the most impressive

935
00:40:45,005 --> 00:40:48,035
content creator in like the written form on the internet.

936
00:40:48,145 --> 00:40:49,965
I don't think anyone comes close to him.

937
00:40:49,975 --> 00:40:51,679
He's so, so good at what he does.

938
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,780
So yeah, I didn't want to do 3D, I didn't think I needed to do 3D, partly

939
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:59,810
because I didn't think I could, I didn't, I've not really done 3D visual

940
00:40:59,810 --> 00:41:03,700
programming before, 2D is way easier to reason about, and I think, and I still

941
00:41:03,710 --> 00:41:06,390
think this, it's not just a cop out because I don't want to do 3D, I think

942
00:41:06,399 --> 00:41:12,030
you can probably Visualize most computer science ideas in two dimensions.

943
00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:14,410
Unless the things that are just explicitly three dimensions.

944
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,380
So I'm sticking with it for the time being and getting better at it as I go.

945
00:41:17,540 --> 00:41:20,900
And you'll notice, when you, if you look at like, uh, a piece by Bartosz

946
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:24,239
and a piece by me side by side, like it's, it's almost plagiarism.

947
00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,270
Like just the style.

948
00:41:25,779 --> 00:41:26,639
It's inspiration.

949
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:27,890
Yeah, I guess.

950
00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:28,050
Right.

951
00:41:28,050 --> 00:41:30,670
You know, good artist deal and all that stuff, but except for DeepSeek, right?

952
00:41:30,670 --> 00:41:31,440
That's not, I'm sorry.

953
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,589
We

954
00:41:33,590 --> 00:41:35,830
knew he was gonna throw shade in there somewhere.

955
00:41:36,139 --> 00:41:36,369
Like,

956
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:39,859
we not allowed for some people, I guess.

957
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:42,779
I was listening to your episode of Crystal from from the last week.

958
00:41:43,399 --> 00:41:44,079
Just before this.

959
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:44,439
Yeah.

960
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,540
But no, like I very similar, you know, you know, use similar use of colors,

961
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,300
but I essentially took all the parts of his work that worked well for me.

962
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:56,250
And I tried to apply them to something in computer science slash programming.

963
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:58,540
And I settled on load balancing for the first one.

964
00:41:58,580 --> 00:42:00,320
It's a topic I knew fairly well.

965
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,520
I had a clear picture in my mind for how I would visualize it.

966
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,770
And this is a recurring theme.

967
00:42:06,029 --> 00:42:10,099
I tend to think very visually about these things anyway.

968
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:12,830
And I never go as far as saying I'm a visual learner,

969
00:42:12,890 --> 00:42:14,290
because some people get very upset with that.

970
00:42:14,290 --> 00:42:16,680
Some people are like, there's no such thing as visual learning.

971
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:17,261
I am so a

972
00:42:17,261 --> 00:42:17,552
visual learner.

973
00:42:17,552 --> 00:42:21,430
That like, I feel like if you had like taught all of my CS classes, I would be

974
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:25,525
like, Even better of an engineer because when I you're sitting here saying this

975
00:42:25,525 --> 00:42:29,125
other guy is like a better content creator And I've never seen his work so I

976
00:42:29,125 --> 00:42:35,235
can't like say but like your visuals are beautiful like they speak to exactly

977
00:42:35,275 --> 00:42:40,145
how my brain works and I think that the way that you did this is so rad because

978
00:42:40,985 --> 00:42:46,025
There's so many kids that don't like I have very like Neurodivergent children.

979
00:42:46,055 --> 00:42:49,635
I'm definitely neuro spacey and we go through our whole lives thinking that

980
00:42:49,635 --> 00:42:53,235
we're dumb or not as smart as other people and then when you see the way

981
00:42:53,235 --> 00:42:57,745
that you've broken these things down, they speak so like heavily to my brain.

982
00:42:57,755 --> 00:43:02,285
And I just wonder like if more people discuss topics in this way, like how

983
00:43:02,285 --> 00:43:06,955
many other people would we be able to bring into different just career forms?

984
00:43:06,955 --> 00:43:10,695
You know, like people were like, well, math and engineering or they're so hard.

985
00:43:10,695 --> 00:43:13,025
And like, I remember I was in a parent school.

986
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:15,710
class and it was for like helping your kids go to college and this

987
00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:18,720
guy was like this woman was like oh my son wants to be go to school

988
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,940
to be a developer and he's like and this guy comes in he's like i'm

989
00:43:21,940 --> 00:43:24,150
an engineer and if he's not good at math and he doesn't get good

990
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,080
grades tell him not to do it and i was like bro like who are you

991
00:43:28,830 --> 00:43:30,710
like oh yeah i'll go do that right now yeah you

992
00:43:30,890 --> 00:43:35,970
know what like who are you the nerve it cracks him because if you go

993
00:43:35,970 --> 00:43:38,670
on an engineering floor we've all got like six different things of

994
00:43:38,670 --> 00:43:42,800
caffeine and we're totally like all like just as neuro spicy, you know?

995
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:48,450
And I feel like if people, uh, learned how to kind of teach in

996
00:43:48,450 --> 00:43:50,959
the manner that you are, and I hope more people do it, and I'm

997
00:43:50,980 --> 00:43:54,870
really excited to find your stuff because it's like so many, like

998
00:43:55,069 --> 00:43:58,435
math is instructions, programming are, is instructions, right?

999
00:43:58,845 --> 00:44:01,685
And especially kids with neural spicy brains

1000
00:44:01,685 --> 00:44:02,875
who want to know how everything works.

1001
00:44:02,895 --> 00:44:06,974
It's amazing how their brains would actually be like amazing

1002
00:44:06,975 --> 00:44:09,525
for this job, but it's just not being taught in the right way.

1003
00:44:09,555 --> 00:44:12,684
And it's so exciting to see somebody teach in a way that

1004
00:44:12,684 --> 00:44:16,830
will help other people get these complex or, you know, I

1005
00:44:16,830 --> 00:44:20,160
guess dense information, but it's really not that dense.

1006
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,700
It's really a cool puzzle that you're figuring out, but it depends

1007
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,820
on who is giving you the information and the way that you do it.

1008
00:44:26,820 --> 00:44:29,340
It's just, it's so cool and impressive.

1009
00:44:30,010 --> 00:44:30,810
Thank you very much.

1010
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:33,950
Everything you said just like hit me in my soul.

1011
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,640
Like I completely agree.

1012
00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:39,210
I, so I have a neurodivergent kids as well.

1013
00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:41,810
So I've got two autistic little boys and I think about this a lot.

1014
00:44:41,810 --> 00:44:42,320
Like, uh,

1015
00:44:42,330 --> 00:44:42,790
Me too.

1016
00:44:43,535 --> 00:44:44,275
Ah, amazing!

1017
00:44:44,415 --> 00:44:48,445
So I have a five year old and a four year old, and I didn't know

1018
00:44:48,445 --> 00:44:52,724
anything about autism before having my two diagnosed, and it's

1019
00:44:52,724 --> 00:44:57,310
been a real journey, and I think I had an idea of what it meant,

1020
00:44:57,370 --> 00:45:01,020
and now I'm kind of learning and going through it for real.

1021
00:45:01,020 --> 00:45:02,790
It's, it's very much not what I imagined it

1022
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:06,530
was, but I, I do worry a lot about education.

1023
00:45:06,530 --> 00:45:09,180
So we, we send them both to a special needs school that's

1024
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:12,350
kind of specifically for autistic kids, and they're thriving.

1025
00:45:12,629 --> 00:45:15,399
My own experience of education wasn't wonderful.

1026
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:16,240
I, I did good.

1027
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:16,970
I did okay.

1028
00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:20,420
But I never really connected with it very well.

1029
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:24,840
And there was something when I read some of Bartosz's work, similar to you,

1030
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,230
I was like, this is how everything should be presented, at least to me.

1031
00:45:27,269 --> 00:45:28,349
Like, specifically me.

1032
00:45:28,349 --> 00:45:30,139
I would love everything to be presented in this way.

1033
00:45:30,139 --> 00:45:30,840
That'd be great.

1034
00:45:31,139 --> 00:45:34,999
And, but I construct these things in my head anyway, as I am learning.

1035
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,330
Like, I'm learning about load balancers.

1036
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,240
I am, in my head, constructing this idea of like, okay, Here's a set of five

1037
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,300
servers and it's round robining between them and I can kind of see it happening.

1038
00:45:43,570 --> 00:45:43,870
Yes.

1039
00:45:43,870 --> 00:45:46,060
I have a mental map map of everything.

1040
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:49,990
I have to be able and I need to, I need so much information in the front

1041
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:53,080
part of learning something because I need to be able to build that.

1042
00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:53,560
Yeah.

1043
00:45:53,565 --> 00:45:57,040
It, it, it's, it's one of the most fun parts of the process.

1044
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,730
It's getting, getting what's in here onto the screen in a way that's legible.

1045
00:46:01,425 --> 00:46:03,565
can be built up from the very basics.

1046
00:46:03,565 --> 00:46:05,545
And that's another thing I think is very important.

1047
00:46:05,545 --> 00:46:08,125
And you'll see it kind of repeated throughout my work is I try and

1048
00:46:08,125 --> 00:46:11,864
start with the absolute simplest, most stripped down example possible.

1049
00:46:11,875 --> 00:46:15,174
This is going to seem personal, but do you think that your experience

1050
00:46:15,174 --> 00:46:18,514
with your children has made you a better teacher and a better engineer?

1051
00:46:18,525 --> 00:46:21,925
And I'm asking this question because it has been such a journey.

1052
00:46:21,965 --> 00:46:22,875
I have three little boys.

1053
00:46:22,875 --> 00:46:24,875
I have a five year old, a seven year old and a 10

1054
00:46:24,875 --> 00:46:28,414
year old and getting my oldest, the proper education.

1055
00:46:28,635 --> 00:46:32,505
Like has been such a struggle and we've had to switch schools and I

1056
00:46:32,505 --> 00:46:36,205
was like determined that he would never feel like he was dumb or bad

1057
00:46:36,205 --> 00:46:39,305
at something because I went through my whole life feeling like I wasn't

1058
00:46:39,315 --> 00:46:43,055
like, good at school or smart, even though I did well, but it like caused

1059
00:46:43,075 --> 00:46:45,955
me so much anxiety because I had to like make myself focus, you know?

1060
00:46:46,435 --> 00:46:50,455
So like, Learning, and then I just was like, I always knew I had

1061
00:46:50,465 --> 00:46:53,325
ADHD, but I didn't know I had autism until like going through all

1062
00:46:53,335 --> 00:46:55,925
the stuff with him, you know, cause girls present in a different way.

1063
00:46:56,345 --> 00:47:00,295
So just like learning how to teach him for his brain and learning how

1064
00:47:00,295 --> 00:47:04,265
to break down concepts and kind of like learn more about how brains

1065
00:47:04,265 --> 00:47:08,005
work, I feel like has made me a better engineer and problem solver.

1066
00:47:08,345 --> 00:47:11,885
But it's like amazing to see the way that you break down all these problems.

1067
00:47:11,885 --> 00:47:14,965
Do you think that influenced like how you teach or like.

1068
00:47:15,575 --> 00:47:18,495
your empathy for how to break things down for people's brains?

1069
00:47:18,725 --> 00:47:19,595
I'm not sure.

1070
00:47:19,635 --> 00:47:21,255
I've never thought about it, and I was thinking

1071
00:47:21,255 --> 00:47:22,555
about it a little bit as you were talking.

1072
00:47:22,585 --> 00:47:26,474
I'd say it's probably yes, but I couldn't pinpoint

1073
00:47:26,484 --> 00:47:29,395
exactly how without thinking about it a bit more.

1074
00:47:29,545 --> 00:47:31,305
I think it's certainly given me an appreciation

1075
00:47:31,305 --> 00:47:35,334
for a wider variety of human experience, I suppose.

1076
00:47:35,334 --> 00:47:41,504
Like, uh, early on when I, we had just gotten our youngest diagnosed.

1077
00:47:41,825 --> 00:47:45,025
I remember reaching out to an autistic adult

1078
00:47:45,035 --> 00:47:47,175
who had autistic kids to have a conversation.

1079
00:47:47,195 --> 00:47:50,265
Because we were wondering, is special needs school the right choice?

1080
00:47:50,305 --> 00:47:52,645
Like, I think reasonable people can pitch it both ways.

1081
00:47:52,645 --> 00:47:57,065
Like, do you want your child to feel different?

1082
00:47:57,074 --> 00:47:59,364
Like, there's different ways of feeling different as well.

1083
00:47:59,364 --> 00:48:01,674
So either you go to a mainstream school and then you feel

1084
00:48:01,674 --> 00:48:03,514
different because you're different to the mainstream kids.

1085
00:48:03,514 --> 00:48:05,324
Or you go to a special needs school and then you're different

1086
00:48:05,324 --> 00:48:07,174
because you're in a different school to the other kids.

1087
00:48:07,174 --> 00:48:07,404
So.

1088
00:48:07,925 --> 00:48:11,535
I was confused about like, like I didn't want my kids to get to like

1089
00:48:11,545 --> 00:48:14,175
15 or whatever and hate the decisions that I made for them when they

1090
00:48:14,175 --> 00:48:16,564
were younger, like I wanted to try and make the best decisions that I

1091
00:48:16,564 --> 00:48:19,284
could and I thought that, you know, uh, the best way of doing that is

1092
00:48:19,285 --> 00:48:21,884
talking to people who have been through this and, and getting their

1093
00:48:21,885 --> 00:48:25,165
opinion and I remember saying to him, Oh, I don't really know any.

1094
00:48:25,535 --> 00:48:26,335
Autistic people.

1095
00:48:26,345 --> 00:48:27,315
And he's like, yeah, you do.

1096
00:48:27,595 --> 00:48:27,805
Yeah.

1097
00:48:27,915 --> 00:48:28,705
You know what?

1098
00:48:28,705 --> 00:48:29,325
It's amazing.

1099
00:48:30,245 --> 00:48:32,815
Like now, like all my friends are getting like themselves

1100
00:48:32,815 --> 00:48:35,874
diagnosed and we're like, dude, I was like attacked.

1101
00:48:35,885 --> 00:48:38,755
I was filling out that form for my kid doing his diagnosis.

1102
00:48:38,885 --> 00:48:40,495
I was like, what do you mean?

1103
00:48:40,495 --> 00:48:45,124
Do you mean this has been my whole life?

1104
00:48:45,125 --> 00:48:47,875
It's wild because my children are so different.

1105
00:48:48,065 --> 00:48:52,775
My oldest goes to, uh, I guess you say like a nor a regular

1106
00:48:52,775 --> 00:48:56,105
public school, but he is in like a res extended resource room.

1107
00:48:56,434 --> 00:49:00,354
But my two youngest are just in general ed, but the way that

1108
00:49:00,365 --> 00:49:03,655
their neurospaciness manifests are completely different.

1109
00:49:03,664 --> 00:49:07,910
One does great in school, and like, Loses all of his, I don't know,

1110
00:49:07,940 --> 00:49:10,740
containment at home because that's where he feels safe and the other

1111
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:14,190
one is opposite and is totally chill, does his own thing and builds

1112
00:49:14,190 --> 00:49:17,899
things in his room at home and absolutely hates school, like, but it's,

1113
00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:22,730
it's wild how they can be in the same family and the same two parents

1114
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:26,790
and they have completely different, like, manifestations of that.

1115
00:49:26,970 --> 00:49:31,395
So it's like, it just, It's made me really appreciate how our brains work and

1116
00:49:31,415 --> 00:49:37,215
how, and it's so funny, like, do you remember Justin Stanley from AWS, Justin?

1117
00:49:37,325 --> 00:49:37,475
No.

1118
00:49:37,855 --> 00:49:41,344
Oh, so like just you or him or like my friend, one

1119
00:49:41,345 --> 00:49:43,885
of my favorite engineers at work, my friend Ben.

1120
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,750
Y'all will talk about stuff that you did as children, like, like, Ben

1121
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:51,950
would, he built a, like, a Game Boy app thing on, like, a calculator

1122
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,770
because his parents wouldn't let him have it, and Justin was saying

1123
00:49:53,780 --> 00:49:56,890
how he built a rocket, and it's like, these things that people

1124
00:49:56,990 --> 00:50:00,139
say that little boys were getting in trouble, they were so smart.

1125
00:50:00,455 --> 00:50:01,285
You know what I mean?

1126
00:50:01,695 --> 00:50:03,995
They were problem solving, and if you look back,

1127
00:50:04,115 --> 00:50:08,285
Einstein, um, Sebastian Bach, like, Beethoven, so many

1128
00:50:08,285 --> 00:50:11,224
of like, the revolutionary people in history had autism.

1129
00:50:11,325 --> 00:50:15,654
I brought my son like, a whole stack of books of like, people in history

1130
00:50:16,005 --> 00:50:19,830
who had had autism when he first got diagnosed, and it's like, If you

1131
00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:23,440
look at the amount of people that were like, just game changers and how

1132
00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:28,560
we interact with music and engineering and so many things, it's just,

1133
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:32,770
and then you go and you work at a big tech company and so many, like,

1134
00:50:32,770 --> 00:50:35,929
it's just so funny that we've been there the whole time and nobody knew.

1135
00:50:36,590 --> 00:50:38,340
Have you ever read the book Life Animated?

1136
00:50:39,709 --> 00:50:42,615
It's about a parent who had an autistic kid.

1137
00:50:42,625 --> 00:50:46,235
And, and I, I read that one while I was working at Disney animation.

1138
00:50:46,245 --> 00:50:48,944
Cause it's a lot about how he loved 2d animation and he

1139
00:50:48,945 --> 00:50:52,655
related all of his like feelings through the characters.

1140
00:50:52,684 --> 00:50:57,874
And I remember I was audio booking that back and forth in my commutes to Disney.

1141
00:50:57,885 --> 00:50:58,985
And I was a new parent at the time.

1142
00:50:58,985 --> 00:51:02,165
And I'm just bawling like every day, I'm just like, just sobbing.

1143
00:51:02,165 --> 00:51:05,635
Just like, this is like so hard to voice like.

1144
00:51:05,945 --> 00:51:08,775
How things are important to different people in different ways.

1145
00:51:08,845 --> 00:51:11,645
And so I do recommend it, but, uh, just be prepared

1146
00:51:11,645 --> 00:51:14,355
that it might, uh, might cause some feelings.

1147
00:51:14,465 --> 00:51:18,285
Look, I'm like so tough, but when it comes to my kids, I'm warm and fuzzy.

1148
00:51:18,285 --> 00:51:19,634
And I'll like rip your hole.

1149
00:51:19,635 --> 00:51:24,804
Like I'm the mom that like, we'll go up there and like, they know me so well.

1150
00:51:24,805 --> 00:51:26,695
Like I know everybody at the department.

1151
00:51:28,715 --> 00:51:31,995
So like, I will totally be like, even the Disney shorts make me cry.

1152
00:51:32,025 --> 00:51:33,904
Like those like my favorite.

1153
00:51:34,410 --> 00:51:38,950
Circling back a little bit on, on just education side of things in the

1154
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:42,339
animation, like you said, you were sitting on this load balancing thing.

1155
00:51:42,339 --> 00:51:43,930
Cause you're like, I know how to represent this.

1156
00:51:43,930 --> 00:51:47,020
I know how to visualize this, but then you had to like do it.

1157
00:51:47,499 --> 00:51:49,579
Uh, I remember back in the, the like early two

1158
00:51:49,579 --> 00:51:51,900
thousands nineties, like the internet is multimedia.

1159
00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:55,630
Like there was this huge, like we are going to do like video and text.

1160
00:51:55,630 --> 00:51:57,470
And it was like a big deal that you could do both.

1161
00:51:57,490 --> 00:51:58,270
And I feel like.

1162
00:51:58,575 --> 00:52:00,925
In this case, like this represents what's

1163
00:52:00,945 --> 00:52:03,135
possible on something on the internet, right?

1164
00:52:03,155 --> 00:52:05,905
Like you could have animations right alongside the text and it's

1165
00:52:05,915 --> 00:52:10,425
interactive and you can change how you're, you know, interacting with it.

1166
00:52:10,465 --> 00:52:13,435
And, and you've done what, seven animations now?

1167
00:52:13,645 --> 00:52:14,805
What would you have done different?

1168
00:52:14,865 --> 00:52:16,384
What did you learn through this process?

1169
00:52:16,445 --> 00:52:18,014
And what are you excited about doing next?

1170
00:52:18,015 --> 00:52:18,128
So

1171
00:52:18,128 --> 00:52:21,085
I've open sourced all of the visualization.

1172
00:52:21,310 --> 00:52:22,850
code behind these posts.

1173
00:52:22,850 --> 00:52:23,770
They live in a separate repo.

1174
00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:26,480
I don't, I, so I published them under an MIT license and

1175
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,850
I very explicitly don't publish the, the words under an

1176
00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:32,320
MIT license just so I have something protected in it.

1177
00:52:32,570 --> 00:52:34,469
But I'm very happy for people to use the visualization

1178
00:52:34,469 --> 00:52:36,479
code and people have done, which is really cool.

1179
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,869
If you go back and you look at the load balancing post though.

1180
00:52:38,910 --> 00:52:39,679
So I think it.

1181
00:52:40,020 --> 00:52:43,140
It really highlights the kind of Luddite I was when I went into

1182
00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:47,730
this, where it's all like, raw JS that there's absolutely no

1183
00:52:47,730 --> 00:52:50,919
like, package management, I don't use anything from NPM, I use a

1184
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:55,619
couple of like, JSCDN links for like, Plotly and things like that.

1185
00:52:56,245 --> 00:52:58,765
But it's put together like someone that has no idea

1186
00:52:58,765 --> 00:53:00,585
what they're doing, and the reason is that I didn't.

1187
00:53:00,635 --> 00:53:01,465
I really didn't.

1188
00:53:01,525 --> 00:53:03,284
And I, I ended up using Pixie.

1189
00:53:03,285 --> 00:53:08,684
js, which is a, it pitches itself as like an HTML5 game making library?

1190
00:53:08,685 --> 00:53:11,465
So it's a lot of resources for drawing to canvases and

1191
00:53:11,465 --> 00:53:13,775
doing animations and things like that, handling input.

1192
00:53:13,945 --> 00:53:15,744
It seemed pretty good for my needs.

1193
00:53:15,810 --> 00:53:20,380
I don't use it anymore because it's, it's fairly heavy.

1194
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:22,740
So it includes everything you'd need to make a game.

1195
00:53:22,740 --> 00:53:25,339
You know, you've got like audio and video handling stuff in there.

1196
00:53:25,350 --> 00:53:28,190
You've got input handling, lots of different things like

1197
00:53:28,190 --> 00:53:30,479
shaders and stuff like that, that I don't use and don't need.

1198
00:53:30,589 --> 00:53:31,690
So it was pretty heavy.

1199
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:34,130
So I think it, it comes to like over half a Meg.

1200
00:53:34,605 --> 00:53:38,015
I think possibly even more than Plotly was like a megabyte of JS.

1201
00:53:38,015 --> 00:53:40,505
And I, I spoke to Scott Hanselman on his podcast, and

1202
00:53:40,505 --> 00:53:43,005
he was going through the network requests on my page.

1203
00:53:43,005 --> 00:53:45,264
He's like, that's like over a megabyte you've loaded there.

1204
00:53:45,314 --> 00:53:46,235
I'm so sorry.

1205
00:53:46,875 --> 00:53:47,724
I didn't mean to.

1206
00:53:47,765 --> 00:53:48,605
Scott calling you out.

1207
00:53:49,295 --> 00:53:50,754
Yeah, just getting shredded by Scott.

1208
00:53:51,474 --> 00:53:53,275
The moral of the story is I didn't know what I was doing.

1209
00:53:53,425 --> 00:53:56,655
I learned everything I needed to know to do some 2D

1210
00:53:56,655 --> 00:53:59,775
animations that kind of worked well enough on the page.

1211
00:53:59,815 --> 00:54:02,595
And I think there's actually some devices it doesn't work well enough on because

1212
00:54:02,595 --> 00:54:07,010
I didn't realize, for example, When you draw to a canvas, I'll be using WebGL.

1213
00:54:07,290 --> 00:54:10,280
Uh, you can only have so many WebGL contexts on one page, and

1214
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,900
the context is the thing that you draw to the canvas through.

1215
00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:14,570
It's the thing you issue commands to.

1216
00:54:15,070 --> 00:54:16,690
And you can only have, on some devices,

1217
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:18,720
like, eight of these things at any one time.

1218
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:20,529
So I think on some of my devices, as you scroll

1219
00:54:20,529 --> 00:54:22,209
down, some of the things just don't load.

1220
00:54:22,539 --> 00:54:24,059
But it's, like, reasonably old mobile

1221
00:54:24,059 --> 00:54:25,659
devices, and I haven't gone back and fixed it.

1222
00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:29,090
It works fine on Modern phones, modern browsers and things like that.

1223
00:54:29,090 --> 00:54:31,490
So I thought it was probably, I don't want

1224
00:54:31,490 --> 00:54:33,170
to touch it cause it's, it's terrible.

1225
00:54:33,170 --> 00:54:35,809
I honestly, if you go back and you look at the code, you really

1226
00:54:35,809 --> 00:54:39,570
will think I'm absolutely unable to do front end development.

1227
00:54:39,929 --> 00:54:42,009
I don't see any of the stuff that you see.

1228
00:54:42,010 --> 00:54:43,659
Like I was geeking out.

1229
00:54:43,865 --> 00:54:48,625
About your load balancing one and like the animation seems so full even though

1230
00:54:48,625 --> 00:54:52,555
it's 2d That's the first one I clicked on and I thought that was your most

1231
00:54:52,565 --> 00:54:56,755
recent blog And then I went through the other ones So like I totally like I

1232
00:54:56,785 --> 00:55:00,854
think that you have like the artist You know, like when you're an artist and

1233
00:55:00,854 --> 00:55:04,255
you look at the things that you do you see all the problems in it But we don't

1234
00:55:04,255 --> 00:55:08,325
actually see the problems in it because I didn't see that at all Like all

1235
00:55:08,325 --> 00:55:11,704
the things you just described I did not see any of that when I looked at it.

1236
00:55:11,715 --> 00:55:16,520
I thought that was like It's such a full concept for 2D, and

1237
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,870
like, I thought that was such an awesome way to present it,

1238
00:55:20,460 --> 00:55:22,900
and I didn't see any of the problems that you just stated.

1239
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,229
I think it's a blessing and a curse.

1240
00:55:25,230 --> 00:55:28,529
I, I think, I, I think I, I, I care very

1241
00:55:28,530 --> 00:55:30,379
deeply about the quality of these things.

1242
00:55:30,379 --> 00:55:32,060
And for example, if you open the load balancing

1243
00:55:32,060 --> 00:55:34,650
post on mobile, And you rotate the screen.

1244
00:55:34,970 --> 00:55:37,510
None of the visualizations will adapt to the new screen size.

1245
00:55:37,550 --> 00:55:39,490
And it kills me that that doesn't work.

1246
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:43,139
And you'll notice all my later ones, that does work because I was so,

1247
00:55:43,139 --> 00:55:46,350
like, ashamed of myself for not making it work in the log balancing one.

1248
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:48,589
I like what you said about art.

1249
00:55:48,589 --> 00:55:49,649
I'm, you know, very flattered.

1250
00:55:49,780 --> 00:55:52,700
I want to lean into that way, way more, actually.

1251
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:53,450
Thinking about it.

1252
00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:56,390
So if you were to open the Turing Machines post, for example.

1253
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:57,670
Something I did for that one.

1254
00:55:58,010 --> 00:56:00,260
But I wasn't sure about the time, um, so I drew

1255
00:56:00,260 --> 00:56:02,920
the hero image in that, in that post by hand.

1256
00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:06,270
So like it's, it's uh, it was done in Procreate on my

1257
00:56:06,270 --> 00:56:08,900
iPad over the course of, you know, several evenings.

1258
00:56:09,060 --> 00:56:11,010
I wouldn't say I'm, I'm, I'm a good artist.

1259
00:56:11,010 --> 00:56:15,490
I think it is enough his likeness that it works well as a hero image.

1260
00:56:15,805 --> 00:56:18,605
Some mean people on Hacker News did say some stuff about it.

1261
00:56:18,645 --> 00:56:20,775
I think someone was like, He looks like a weird alien.

1262
00:56:20,775 --> 00:56:23,844
You should just stick to Shutterstock next time or something.

1263
00:56:23,844 --> 00:56:24,745
And I was like, Ow.

1264
00:56:25,004 --> 00:56:25,505
I will.

1265
00:56:25,505 --> 00:56:28,094
Can you just, can you tag me wherever that is?

1266
00:56:28,094 --> 00:56:28,615
And I will

1267
00:56:28,615 --> 00:56:29,295
do the

1268
00:56:29,295 --> 00:56:29,634
job

1269
00:56:29,634 --> 00:56:29,974
for

1270
00:56:29,974 --> 00:56:30,314
you.

1271
00:56:30,314 --> 00:56:31,544
Like, the lies you tell.

1272
00:56:31,555 --> 00:56:33,424
Like, you are definitely an artist.

1273
00:56:33,455 --> 00:56:34,985
And those people are just jelly.

1274
00:56:34,985 --> 00:56:38,005
And also, like, I am willing to fight on the internet for you.

1275
00:56:38,005 --> 00:56:39,447
Like, just tag me in.

1276
00:56:39,447 --> 00:56:40,544
Tag me in.

1277
00:56:40,545 --> 00:56:41,465
I have time.

1278
00:56:41,785 --> 00:56:46,614
I replied to it saying, oh, um, it's, it's a little bit of a, a

1279
00:56:46,615 --> 00:56:51,465
little bit of an anti AI statement, a little bit, as a, as more and

1280
00:56:51,465 --> 00:56:55,075
more people are using AI tools to generate worse and worse content,

1281
00:56:55,125 --> 00:56:59,780
unfortunately, um, I want my content to really stand out as It's

1282
00:56:59,790 --> 00:57:04,240
kind of human, really organic, and thought about and cared about.

1283
00:57:04,330 --> 00:57:07,500
So I tried this new idea of hand drawing a hero

1284
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:09,380
image, and I probably will do it again, I suppose.

1285
00:57:09,420 --> 00:57:11,940
My wife is actually a significantly better artist than I am.

1286
00:57:12,370 --> 00:57:14,390
If you scroll down to the bottom of the Drawing Machine

1287
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:16,330
page, there's three drawings at the bottom, and she did

1288
00:57:16,330 --> 00:57:18,450
those, and I think they look so much better than mine.

1289
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:20,570
I hadn't told her about my plan to draw the hero

1290
00:57:20,580 --> 00:57:22,540
image, and it was like quite late into the process.

1291
00:57:22,540 --> 00:57:23,990
She was like, oh wow, what are you drawing?

1292
00:57:24,405 --> 00:57:26,665
And I was like, Oh, I'm drawing Alan Turing for my post.

1293
00:57:26,725 --> 00:57:28,275
And then she was like, Oh, I'll have a go as well.

1294
00:57:28,275 --> 00:57:29,245
And she drew a picture of him.

1295
00:57:29,245 --> 00:57:30,045
It's way better than mine.

1296
00:57:30,045 --> 00:57:31,465
I'm like, damn it.

1297
00:57:31,655 --> 00:57:34,245
I'm still going to use mine because it feels, it feels kind

1298
00:57:34,245 --> 00:57:36,435
of cheeky to use yours, but I want to lean more into that.

1299
00:57:36,445 --> 00:57:38,955
I would like, and I've not said this to anyone before.

1300
00:57:39,325 --> 00:57:40,865
I would love if.

1301
00:57:41,565 --> 00:57:44,895
Every single one of my posts, I worked with an artist

1302
00:57:45,015 --> 00:57:49,055
and I kind of paid them to create artwork for the page.

1303
00:57:49,065 --> 00:57:51,225
So, I'm writing a post at the moment, uh,

1304
00:57:51,234 --> 00:57:53,934
very early stages on multilayer perceptrons.

1305
00:57:53,935 --> 00:57:56,885
So very early kind of classifier neural networks.

1306
00:57:57,104 --> 00:58:02,084
And I would love to commission an artist to do kind of their own style.

1307
00:58:02,085 --> 00:58:05,235
So the important thing behind this is it would be their style.

1308
00:58:05,405 --> 00:58:08,045
Artificial neurons, like actual pictures of

1309
00:58:08,045 --> 00:58:09,655
neurons from the brain and things like that.

1310
00:58:09,655 --> 00:58:14,285
Just, just Artistic stuff around the writing, and then, you know,

1311
00:58:14,285 --> 00:58:17,145
feature them as an artist that has done the artwork and then for every

1312
00:58:17,145 --> 00:58:19,975
post I get somebody else and it's in their style, so every post has

1313
00:58:19,975 --> 00:58:23,610
this unique feeling to it, and at the same time Using my, you know,

1314
00:58:23,630 --> 00:58:27,320
modest platform to try and boost people, like, other artists profiles.

1315
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,669
I have previously put out, like, Oh, hey, I want to

1316
00:58:30,670 --> 00:58:33,260
commission some artwork, uh, this, this kind of thing.

1317
00:58:33,260 --> 00:58:37,389
And the problem is you should get hundreds of DMs from scammers and

1318
00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:40,300
people that are not legitimate and people that are looking to rip you off.

1319
00:58:40,379 --> 00:58:42,620
Uh, so I, I don't know the best way to approach.

1320
00:58:42,830 --> 00:58:45,240
artists, and I would love advice if you have any,

1321
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,250
because I think it would be so glad that you don't want

1322
00:58:47,250 --> 00:58:52,650
to use Fiverr, because like, they just down level, like, and just are terrible,

1323
00:58:52,650 --> 00:58:56,480
and they've ruined so much of graphic design and animation and so many, like,

1324
00:58:56,489 --> 00:58:59,879
other parts, that like, I love that you actually want to work with them.

1325
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:02,069
It's not that you're getting a bunch of sinkhammers,

1326
00:59:02,070 --> 00:59:04,070
though, but I just think that's such a, like, rad idea.

1327
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:05,990
To do that, and to really.

1328
00:59:06,140 --> 00:59:06,800
Shores away.

1329
00:59:07,420 --> 00:59:09,480
I think it would probably have to be, you know, through my own

1330
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,740
network of people, like, you know, asking friends and stuff.

1331
00:59:11,870 --> 00:59:14,830
Even networking on social media on, like, Blue Sky, but, like, networking

1332
00:59:14,830 --> 00:59:16,999
with other artists, because there's, like, an artist feed, too.

1333
00:59:17,319 --> 00:59:19,560
Well, one of the things that I've found is just, like, finding

1334
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,920
the right style and experience from an artist is really,

1335
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,700
really difficult, where it's, like, there's a bunch of amazing

1336
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:28,270
artists out there that just aren't the thing I'm looking for.

1337
00:59:28,380 --> 00:59:31,000
And that's like, cause like the, the vibe and the, the things

1338
00:59:31,010 --> 00:59:33,680
that I've, I've tried to do different animation projects in the

1339
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,479
past that were mostly just like 2d hand drawn animation things.

1340
00:59:37,490 --> 00:59:41,030
And every time it's like, Oh, like this isn't, it's not a comic book.

1341
00:59:41,060 --> 00:59:41,889
I don't want that vibe.

1342
00:59:41,889 --> 00:59:46,170
It's not a, you know, a dark sort of like, uh, it's like, I want.

1343
00:59:46,660 --> 00:59:49,520
The specific thing, and I don't know how to tell someone that

1344
00:59:49,850 --> 00:59:52,340
I don't have necessarily the words to be able to say, like, I

1345
00:59:52,340 --> 00:59:54,390
have to go look through a bunch of it and then do the work to

1346
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:57,390
like, Oh, these are the five that I think look about rights.

1347
00:59:58,410 --> 01:00:00,419
I'm sure there's plenty of artists that can do different styles,

1348
01:00:00,419 --> 01:00:03,120
and maybe they just don't show that, and it's hard to, like,

1349
01:00:03,290 --> 01:00:04,870
Have you ever tried just looking up a video or

1350
01:00:04,890 --> 01:00:07,270
grabbing a book and looking at the different styles?

1351
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,980
It might be like, you know, like a book of just different styles.

1352
01:00:10,030 --> 01:00:13,040
Then that way you can kind of get the vocabulary that you're looking for.

1353
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,399
Or even if you just Google different animation styles.

1354
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:16,850
Yeah.

1355
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:17,580
And I mean, but like.

1356
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,290
Again, art and animation, there's a lot of

1357
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,400
people that are desperate for work right now.

1358
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:26,810
And it is also really hard because you will get hundreds of

1359
01:00:26,820 --> 01:00:29,460
people that even if you say, I want this specific thing, they're

1360
01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:32,949
still going to come to you and, and kind of waste your time.

1361
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,540
And so like, Oh, here's all this stuff that I did.

1362
01:00:34,540 --> 01:00:36,159
I'm like, that's not what I asked for at all.

1363
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,550
There was a lot of people that were just like, Oh, you know what?

1364
01:00:38,550 --> 01:00:41,270
Like, you're great, but it's not what I was asking for.

1365
01:00:41,290 --> 01:00:41,720
And.

1366
01:00:42,125 --> 01:00:42,435
Thanks.

1367
01:00:42,435 --> 01:00:46,795
And I, I stopped asking publicly for help for those things because of

1368
01:00:46,975 --> 01:00:50,815
the amount of time it was taking me to like filter out all the people

1369
01:00:50,815 --> 01:00:52,994
and then say like, okay, well, like what's your timeline look like?

1370
01:00:53,005 --> 01:00:53,525
What's the price?

1371
01:00:53,525 --> 01:00:55,314
And it just never lined up.

1372
01:00:55,395 --> 01:00:57,185
The funny story about how I originally had this

1373
01:00:57,185 --> 01:00:59,545
idea is, um, do you know who Andy Matuszak is?

1374
01:01:00,980 --> 01:01:04,740
He is an education researcher, fantastic, I'll

1375
01:01:04,740 --> 01:01:06,850
link him for the show notes, uh, after this.

1376
01:01:07,330 --> 01:01:10,930
He, his, his website is beautiful, he's obviously put a lot of time into it,

1377
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:15,989
and, uh, I read a post by him with the title, Why Books Don't Work, like a

1378
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:20,175
fairly incendiary title, but the, the, the point is that It's unrealistic

1379
01:01:20,175 --> 01:01:22,755
to, to expect people to read a book and then know everything in the book.

1380
01:01:22,815 --> 01:01:24,755
Like it's, you know, we have so many more tools now.

1381
01:01:24,755 --> 01:01:26,345
And it was just, it was just speaking to me.

1382
01:01:26,345 --> 01:01:27,465
I was like, I completely agree.

1383
01:01:27,475 --> 01:01:29,305
Like it's, it's a big part of what I'm doing at the moment.

1384
01:01:29,855 --> 01:01:31,865
And then I clicked on some of his other posts.

1385
01:01:32,135 --> 01:01:34,624
And every post I opened, like, had a different theme to it.

1386
01:01:34,754 --> 01:01:35,364
And I was like, is this?

1387
01:01:35,815 --> 01:01:39,505
Is he making like a bespoke theme for every single post?

1388
01:01:39,505 --> 01:01:40,575
That's an amazing idea.

1389
01:01:40,945 --> 01:01:42,785
And then I had this idea, oh, I'd love to like commission

1390
01:01:42,785 --> 01:01:45,194
different artists to do work in their style for each of my posts.

1391
01:01:45,485 --> 01:01:47,834
But it turned out actually, uh, every single link was, was

1392
01:01:47,834 --> 01:01:50,465
guest posts on other websites, so he wasn't actually doing that.

1393
01:01:50,675 --> 01:01:52,244
So I, he's given me this idea.

1394
01:01:52,435 --> 01:01:53,665
Even though he's never actually done it.

1395
01:01:54,685 --> 01:01:57,085
That's cool, but it also just seems like it would be very

1396
01:01:57,085 --> 01:01:59,485
time consuming, but that's pretty cool that he also, like,

1397
01:01:59,495 --> 01:02:02,575
is giving people, like, a platform, but at the same time.

1398
01:02:02,855 --> 01:02:04,404
So Sam, what, what do you think is next?

1399
01:02:04,404 --> 01:02:05,904
What's the next, uh, you said you're working

1400
01:02:05,904 --> 01:02:08,735
on, like, a neural, neural network sort of post?

1401
01:02:08,745 --> 01:02:11,675
What has been occupying a lot of my time recently is,

1402
01:02:12,005 --> 01:02:14,685
can I do this full time, is the question on my mind.

1403
01:02:14,975 --> 01:02:17,595
I don't think I can do the blog posts full time.

1404
01:02:17,595 --> 01:02:19,235
I think, uh, so I did recently land my

1405
01:02:19,255 --> 01:02:21,395
first sponsor, which is a huge step for me.

1406
01:02:21,455 --> 01:02:24,365
Very, very grateful that, so the company approached me and we

1407
01:02:24,365 --> 01:02:27,535
spoke and came to a good agreement, but it, but it's not like,

1408
01:02:28,015 --> 01:02:30,255
it's not the kind of money that I could live off, but it's,

1409
01:02:30,255 --> 01:02:32,565
you know, very, very generous for the, for the work it is.

1410
01:02:32,585 --> 01:02:35,265
So I'm thinking to myself, like, how would I, how

1411
01:02:35,265 --> 01:02:37,245
would I do this full time if I really wanted to?

1412
01:02:37,245 --> 01:02:39,935
And I'm beginning to kind of take steps in that direction, which is why.

1413
01:02:40,705 --> 01:02:44,035
I've not made a lot of progress on my next post yet, so I've got some visual

1414
01:02:44,035 --> 01:02:48,035
stuff working, but I haven't got everything that I need, because I'm just

1415
01:02:48,035 --> 01:02:50,854
doing a lot of logistical stuff, like I created a company, and I, you know, I'm

1416
01:02:50,874 --> 01:02:53,595
speaking to accountants and things like that, all the stuff that goes around it.

1417
01:02:53,945 --> 01:02:56,274
And you mentioned, I think, earlier on, you know, Oh,

1418
01:02:56,274 --> 01:02:58,125
you're doing this in your spare time, that's incredible.

1419
01:02:58,514 --> 01:03:01,565
Uh, so I do four days at work, and then I'd

1420
01:03:01,565 --> 01:03:04,445
have Fridays for working for my own company.

1421
01:03:05,170 --> 01:03:09,190
So it's not quite spare time, like, I have been able to carve out real time

1422
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:14,900
for it now, which I'm incredibly grateful for, uh, But yeah, it's, what's next?

1423
01:03:14,930 --> 01:03:18,620
I, I want to keep making the posts, I want to keep a cadence of like

1424
01:03:18,620 --> 01:03:21,700
two or three a year, And I think with the sponsorship and with the

1425
01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:24,560
extra time that should be possible, into the foreseeable future.

1426
01:03:25,170 --> 01:03:29,390
But I'm also thinking about other ideas surrounding that, like writing these

1427
01:03:29,390 --> 01:03:32,710
blog posts is one way of reaching a wide audience with educational content,

1428
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:34,809
but there's lots of other things out there, like everybody at the moment is

1429
01:03:34,809 --> 01:03:39,010
making courses, and Very inspired by the work of people like Aaron Francis

1430
01:03:39,010 --> 01:03:42,400
and Josh Camot and the stuff that, like, Matt Pocock is doing through Badass.

1431
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,150
dev and things like that, and starting to wonder, you know, Is

1432
01:03:45,150 --> 01:03:48,009
there space in that market anywhere for the skills that I have?

1433
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,199
And I think there probably is, and I've not fully fleshed

1434
01:03:51,210 --> 01:03:53,889
out my ideas in that space yet, but it would surprise me if

1435
01:03:53,889 --> 01:03:56,920
in the next three years I didn't do something in that space.

1436
01:03:57,890 --> 01:04:00,962
And then also the most unlikely thing, I can't remember who

1437
01:04:00,962 --> 01:04:03,550
I was talking to recently, but having this conversation about

1438
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,720
physical products and talking about the question, like, what if

1439
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,950
you could hold an algorithm, what if you could physically hold.

1440
01:04:10,340 --> 01:04:11,060
An algorithm.

1441
01:04:11,070 --> 01:04:12,070
Like, how would that look?

1442
01:04:12,070 --> 01:04:12,950
How would it work?

1443
01:04:13,310 --> 01:04:16,070
And, uh, it came about, uh, I have a friend who's got a 3D printer.

1444
01:04:16,110 --> 01:04:19,290
And I was like, could you 3D print a Turing machine?

1445
01:04:19,359 --> 01:04:20,619
Like, how would that work?

1446
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:21,499
How would that look?

1447
01:04:21,550 --> 01:04:24,340
And we started looking at, there are physical example of Turing machines

1448
01:04:24,340 --> 01:04:27,765
out there that you cannot, you Turn a handle and it does something, some

1449
01:04:27,765 --> 01:04:30,355
sort of program, and it works in the same way a Turing machine does.

1450
01:04:30,505 --> 01:04:32,205
They're real complex, actually.

1451
01:04:32,215 --> 01:04:34,205
Like, probably way more complex than we could

1452
01:04:34,205 --> 01:04:36,035
achieve realistically with a 3D printer.

1453
01:04:36,064 --> 01:04:38,884
And plus, I wouldn't want to sell 3D printed products.

1454
01:04:38,885 --> 01:04:40,844
Like, a lot of thought has also recently been

1455
01:04:40,844 --> 01:04:43,085
put into, like, what is my brand, so to speak.

1456
01:04:43,085 --> 01:04:44,064
My personal brand.

1457
01:04:44,095 --> 01:04:47,475
And I really want to lean heavily into, like, quite high quality things.

1458
01:04:47,475 --> 01:04:49,815
So if I did Produce something like this.

1459
01:04:50,065 --> 01:04:53,665
In my head it would be a like a fully like metal Turing

1460
01:04:53,665 --> 01:04:56,655
machine that you know has a weight to it and it feels good

1461
01:04:56,655 --> 01:04:59,734
and like I'm thinking like a desk toy kind of accessory thing.

1462
01:04:59,854 --> 01:05:01,245
So I think those are the least likely.

1463
01:05:01,245 --> 01:05:02,585
Dealing with physical products has a whole

1464
01:05:02,585 --> 01:05:04,535
bunch of challenges that I know nothing about.

1465
01:05:05,354 --> 01:05:08,385
But I do love the idea of like, what if you could hold a bubble sort?

1466
01:05:08,505 --> 01:05:09,575
Like how would that look?

1467
01:05:09,585 --> 01:05:10,975
What would it, how would it work?

1468
01:05:11,035 --> 01:05:14,465
So kind of physical manifestations of algorithms is something that's on my mind.

1469
01:05:15,135 --> 01:05:16,485
That's such an interesting concept.

1470
01:05:16,515 --> 01:05:19,615
I hope you don't let all the hurdles stop you,

1471
01:05:19,665 --> 01:05:21,575
because that would be such a cool concept.

1472
01:05:22,165 --> 01:05:24,925
The biggest hurdle right now, and I'm sure you'll appreciate this,

1473
01:05:25,005 --> 01:05:29,710
I'm so time poor, you know, with the kids and with the Full time work.

1474
01:05:29,710 --> 01:05:32,730
Um, I haven't mentioned it, but I'm also a trustee for a

1475
01:05:32,730 --> 01:05:35,220
charity in the local area that works with special needs kids.

1476
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,750
Time is like unbelievably precious to me.

1477
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:38,420
Sam, do we have the same

1478
01:05:38,420 --> 01:05:38,830
life?

1479
01:05:38,860 --> 01:05:40,649
I think we have the same life.

1480
01:05:40,649 --> 01:05:42,670
Have you seen us in the same room?

1481
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:43,370
I don't think we have.

1482
01:05:43,619 --> 01:05:47,080
We're, it's like You've never seen Batman and like, what's his name?

1483
01:05:47,230 --> 01:05:48,820
Batman and Bruce Wayne at the same time.

1484
01:05:48,850 --> 01:05:49,390
I think we're the same.

1485
01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:51,240
Which one of you is Batman?

1486
01:05:52,340 --> 01:05:53,630
Sam, definitely Sam.

1487
01:05:57,450 --> 01:06:01,219
Sam, thank you so much for coming on the show and explaining to us just your,

1488
01:06:01,250 --> 01:06:04,039
your career and all the things you've been through, but then also the things

1489
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,760
you're looking forward to and the animations and everyone should go to Sam who.

1490
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,060
dev because those animations are fantastic.

1491
01:06:10,270 --> 01:06:12,639
You'll learn a lot of things that even, even things you didn't.

1492
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,600
really realize you didn't know, right?

1493
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:16,780
There's a lot of things that just got exposed once

1494
01:06:16,780 --> 01:06:18,620
you put a visualization to some of this stuff.

1495
01:06:18,620 --> 01:06:19,710
And I think it's fantastic.

1496
01:06:19,710 --> 01:06:19,970
So

1497
01:06:20,170 --> 01:06:26,199
I hope you have a just long career in creative teaching because you

1498
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:30,919
weren't, for one, a rad human on your own, but like the fact that just this

1499
01:06:30,919 --> 01:06:35,210
is so creative and I hope it's the future of how we teach people things.

1500
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:36,440
Oh, I really appreciate it.

1501
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:37,170
Thank you so much.

1502
01:06:37,170 --> 01:06:38,760
I thank you so much for inviting me on.

1503
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,020
It's been a blast talking to you both.

1504
01:06:40,315 --> 01:06:42,575
I know you are semi active on blue sky.

1505
01:06:42,585 --> 01:06:44,195
I don't know if you're on other social networks or not.

1506
01:06:44,245 --> 01:06:48,625
Um, we do have the FAFO dot FM blue sky account has

1507
01:06:48,645 --> 01:06:51,735
a starter pack of guests and you're in there already.

1508
01:06:51,955 --> 01:06:54,185
We have, we have a couple of people in there, so it's been fun.

1509
01:06:54,185 --> 01:06:55,385
We've been just adding them as we're going.

1510
01:06:55,385 --> 01:06:57,025
There's still, we're always a little ahead on it too.

1511
01:06:57,275 --> 01:07:00,485
So anyone that's on blue sky, if you are looking for some of the past guests

1512
01:07:00,485 --> 01:07:04,625
or whatever show you're listening to check out the FAFO dot FM accounts.

1513
01:07:04,645 --> 01:07:06,774
And there's a startup back there that you can find anyone.

1514
01:07:07,045 --> 01:07:09,225
that has a blue sky, uh, isn't.

1515
01:07:09,465 --> 01:07:12,255
One more thing, what you said about websites having

1516
01:07:12,255 --> 01:07:16,115
downtime and how like multiplayer games, that's so real.

1517
01:07:16,135 --> 01:07:17,295
Like, it's so true.

1518
01:07:17,905 --> 01:07:21,284
Like you can't have like five seconds of downtime on a website, but

1519
01:07:21,285 --> 01:07:24,854
fortnight will like crash itself for like eight hours until you to come back.

1520
01:07:24,854 --> 01:07:26,995
And then your kids are sitting there at like 3 PM.

1521
01:07:27,015 --> 01:07:29,625
Like they just, just, I swear to God, you're

1522
01:07:29,625 --> 01:07:31,995
just like the way that they will wait.

1523
01:07:32,580 --> 01:07:34,910
Just wait for the next, like, what is it called?

1524
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,250
Um, episode or whatever, and they get the new downloads and just, it's amazing,

1525
01:07:39,250 --> 01:07:44,110
like, they could just leave up a version of, like, the old game, but they

1526
01:07:44,110 --> 01:07:47,569
will completely take it down for eight hours and kids will sit there and wait.

1527
01:07:47,579 --> 01:07:49,189
It's like, you can tell all the kids in the

1528
01:07:49,189 --> 01:07:51,240
neighborhood are outside because Fortnite's down.

1529
01:07:52,150 --> 01:07:52,430
Yeah.

1530
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,430
That's the thing, you can go outside, it's fine.

1531
01:07:55,350 --> 01:07:58,470
The thing that triggered it was, like, major database upgrades.

1532
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,380
They'd be so much easier if I could just take the website NAND for an hour,

1533
01:08:01,430 --> 01:08:04,800
do it, and bring it back up, rather than have to set up a logical replica.

1534
01:08:05,300 --> 01:08:07,560
Yeah, much, much faster, much cheaper in general.

1535
01:08:07,860 --> 01:08:10,600
There's this weird, this weird obsession with 100

1536
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,500
percent uptime that I don't think is well placed.

1537
01:08:13,485 --> 01:08:14,695
Yeah, cause like, there's a lot of websites

1538
01:08:14,695 --> 01:08:16,825
that we do not need 100 percent of the time.

1539
01:08:16,835 --> 01:08:19,795
Also, the IRS website was down for like three days last year

1540
01:08:19,795 --> 01:08:22,914
when we were trying to make like the business account for

1541
01:08:22,915 --> 01:08:26,105
this, so like, dude, it, nothing worked for three, and it was

1542
01:08:26,115 --> 01:08:29,565
even out, and it was like longer than the structured downtime.

1543
01:08:29,855 --> 01:08:32,745
It started 24 hours early and it was out longer.

1544
01:08:33,105 --> 01:08:35,405
And I was like, this is actually important, like.

1545
01:08:38,310 --> 01:08:39,040
Things are okay.

1546
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:39,250
Right.

1547
01:08:39,270 --> 01:08:41,500
Like it's, it's not like, obviously some things probably

1548
01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:44,200
weren't okay, but generally speaking, like we're all still here.

1549
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:44,810
And yeah.

1550
01:08:45,010 --> 01:08:47,140
One last thing, cause this episode is going out at the end of

1551
01:08:47,140 --> 01:08:50,659
February in the first week of March, March 6th through 9th,

1552
01:08:50,699 --> 01:08:53,480
Autumn and I will both be at the Southern California Linux Expo.

1553
01:08:53,480 --> 01:08:55,040
So if anyone's listening to this, wants to

1554
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:57,500
come to scale, it is in Pasadena, which.

1555
01:08:57,720 --> 01:08:59,480
Traditionally has had fantastic weather.

1556
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,290
I know in January, there have been a lot of fires around the area.

1557
01:09:03,330 --> 01:09:07,650
Um, but as far as I know, March is still going to be a great weather to attend.

1558
01:09:07,659 --> 01:09:08,930
It's a community events.

1559
01:09:08,980 --> 01:09:10,760
Uh, I help run the cloud native day.

1560
01:09:10,900 --> 01:09:12,290
Autumn, you have a talk there.

1561
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:16,140
Y'all scale is going to be absolutely bananas.

1562
01:09:16,140 --> 01:09:18,910
Like did you, have you seen the list of people going?

1563
01:09:19,170 --> 01:09:19,390
There's,

1564
01:09:19,410 --> 01:09:20,730
there's some great people.

1565
01:09:20,740 --> 01:09:20,980
It

1566
01:09:20,980 --> 01:09:22,540
is going to be like.

1567
01:09:23,220 --> 01:09:29,479
Not just nerd summer camp like it is going to be unhinged nerd summer camp like

1568
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:30,660
It's community run.

1569
01:09:30,660 --> 01:09:33,250
So if you are individual if you have education or like half

1570
01:09:33,260 --> 01:09:36,820
price tickets bring your kids I'm bringing mine on on Saturday.

1571
01:09:36,820 --> 01:09:38,520
I don't know you're coming with yours

1572
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:43,585
if you see a horde of children That are just like absolutely ridiculous.

1573
01:09:43,595 --> 01:09:47,405
It's probably like me and Justin's kids, but like mostly mine.

1574
01:09:47,465 --> 01:09:47,755
Like

1575
01:09:48,465 --> 01:09:50,835
there's, there are game nights on Saturdays.

1576
01:09:50,845 --> 01:09:52,275
So feel free, please come.

1577
01:09:52,315 --> 01:09:54,685
Um, it's again, it's, it's a, it's community run events.

1578
01:09:54,695 --> 01:09:57,014
It is affordable for a lot of people.

1579
01:09:57,015 --> 01:10:00,045
I think the full price tickets are like 120 bucks or something like that.

1580
01:10:00,285 --> 01:10:02,935
So, and there is sponsorships for some of that if you need it,

1581
01:10:03,125 --> 01:10:05,235
but there's a lot of different tracks, a lot of different tech.

1582
01:10:05,495 --> 01:10:07,915
It is, it is a very fun, non.

1583
01:10:08,325 --> 01:10:11,415
Uh, enterprise, non single vendor sort of environment to be in.

1584
01:10:11,425 --> 01:10:11,645
You

1585
01:10:11,645 --> 01:10:15,385
are doing the best sales pitch that's like, uh, the best, like.

1586
01:10:15,475 --> 01:10:16,395
I've been going for.

1587
01:10:16,515 --> 01:10:17,625
Wholesome one.

1588
01:10:17,635 --> 01:10:20,505
And I'm just like, I'm going to do hood rat stuff with my friends.

1589
01:10:20,505 --> 01:10:23,005
And then like, my kids are going to like, you're just going to

1590
01:10:23,005 --> 01:10:26,164
see five little boys, like running around with like stickers on

1591
01:10:26,165 --> 01:10:33,065
their head and stuff and like scale shirts and like raspberry 22.

1592
01:10:33,105 --> 01:10:36,125
I think the first one I went to a scale seven or eight, maybe.

1593
01:10:36,885 --> 01:10:38,335
I can get banned from my kids.

1594
01:10:38,335 --> 01:10:41,215
Like, do you think there's be like, don't come back with those little,

1595
01:10:41,265 --> 01:10:43,995
like, uh, I have, if anyone's watching the show, like,

1596
01:10:44,015 --> 01:10:45,565
well, no one's watching it now, but we might have clips.

1597
01:10:45,595 --> 01:10:47,904
Uh, there's a bunch of raspberry pies that we're giving away for

1598
01:10:47,904 --> 01:10:51,315
the kids for the next generation track is, is by kids for kids.

1599
01:10:51,404 --> 01:10:54,564
My son gave a talk a few years ago, but there's kids in the audience

1600
01:10:54,564 --> 01:10:57,045
and they have like, uh, like a STEM room and stuff like that, but.

1601
01:10:57,445 --> 01:10:59,555
People in the community donated a bunch of raspberry pies.

1602
01:10:59,555 --> 01:11:00,735
Thank you so much for sending them.

1603
01:11:01,025 --> 01:11:03,485
Um, I have been setting them up 3d printing cases, making

1604
01:11:03,485 --> 01:11:06,055
sure they work, getting them ready to hand out at the event.

1605
01:11:06,055 --> 01:11:08,294
So we will have a couple of like scavenger hunt type things

1606
01:11:08,294 --> 01:11:11,064
that you can get a free raspberry pie if you, if you come.

1607
01:11:11,065 --> 01:11:12,844
So, uh, there's a lot of cool stuff.

1608
01:11:12,845 --> 01:11:13,995
So, uh, please check it out.

1609
01:11:14,025 --> 01:11:17,215
We'll have the link in the show notes and, um, Sam, thank you again for coming.

1610
01:11:17,700 --> 01:11:18,420
No, thank you.

1611
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:19,040
Have a good one.

1612
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:37,430
Thank you for listening to this episode of Fork Around and Find Out.

1613
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:39,820
If you like this show, please consider sharing it with

1614
01:11:39,820 --> 01:11:43,000
a friend, a coworker, a family member, or even an enemy.

1615
01:11:43,099 --> 01:11:45,200
However we get the word out about this show

1616
01:11:45,420 --> 01:11:47,620
helps it to become sustainable for the long term.

1617
01:11:47,915 --> 01:11:51,585
If you want to sponsor this show, please go to fafo.

1618
01:11:51,625 --> 01:11:55,165
fm slash sponsor and reach out to us there about what

1619
01:11:55,165 --> 01:11:57,415
you're interested in sponsoring and how we can help.

1620
01:11:58,635 --> 01:12:01,825
We hope your systems stay available and your pagers stay quiet.

1621
01:12:02,345 --> 01:12:03,514
We'll see you again next time.