1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:03,900 Jeremy Price: When you have those sorts of whale clients, suddenly they have lots 2 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:06,810 of leverage over your direction, right? 3 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:09,990 And suddenly you're going to step in line when they say, Hey, here's 4 00:00:09,990 --> 00:00:13,770 this feature request, which again, might not make sense for 99 point, 5 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:15,630 you know, five nines of our clients. 6 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:17,340 Um, but they want it. 7 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:21,540 And so, well, we like our business, so we better actually make it happen for them. 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,080 Um, you know, it's, it's again that sort of freedom that we have 9 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:26,610 with not being beholden to VCs. 10 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:28,440 We're also not beholden any particular customer. 11 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:29,580 We certainly take. 12 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,430 Those can, you know, those requests into consideration. 13 00:00:32,430 --> 00:00:34,980 I think we even say, you know, prioritized, you know, feature 14 00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:36,000 requests and that sort of stuff. 15 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,510 But it still goes through the, does this make sense for the product filter? 16 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:41,940 Uh, and if it doesn't make sense for the product, we say, 17 00:00:41,940 --> 00:00:42,750 Hey, we're sorry, but that. 18 00:00:43,140 --> 00:00:46,530 That just doesn't align with how the direction we wanna go. 19 00:00:51,629 --> 00:00:53,190 Corey : Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. 20 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:54,510 I'm Cory Quinn. 21 00:00:54,750 --> 00:00:59,670 Today's guest has been circling me and I've been circling him since long 22 00:00:59,670 --> 00:01:02,250 before any of you had heard of me. 23 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,560 Don't you miss those naive days of innocence. 24 00:01:04,769 --> 00:01:09,820 Uh, Jeremy Price is the VP of technology at enshittification Grokability. 25 00:01:10,065 --> 00:01:12,225 Jeremy, thank you for talking with me. 26 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:13,155 Jeremy Price: Thank you for having me. 27 00:01:13,155 --> 00:01:14,775 Good, sir. It's, it's been too long. 28 00:01:15,645 --> 00:01:20,115 Corey : This episode is sponsored by my own company, duck Bill, having trouble 29 00:01:20,115 --> 00:01:25,095 with your AWS bill, perhaps it's time to renegotiate a contract with them. 30 00:01:25,425 --> 00:01:30,615 Maybe you're just wondering how to predict what's going on in the wide world of AWS. 31 00:01:30,645 --> 00:01:33,525 Well, that's where Duck Bill comes in to help. 32 00:01:33,705 --> 00:01:36,465 Remember, you can't duck the duck bill. 33 00:01:36,465 --> 00:01:40,065 Bill, which I am reliably informed by my business partner 34 00:01:40,185 --> 00:01:42,675 is absolutely not our motto. 35 00:01:42,915 --> 00:01:46,065 To learn more, visit duck bill hq.com. 36 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:47,830 It really has. 37 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:50,740 It used to live in the city and then we had no excuse for never talking 38 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:52,150 to each other except at conferences. 39 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:54,970 And now you live out of the city. 40 00:01:55,210 --> 00:01:58,570 And we have better excuses for not talking to each other except at conferences, 41 00:01:58,570 --> 00:02:01,780 except for the part where we don't really go to conferences quite like we used to. 42 00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:02,590 It feels like. 43 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:06,110 Peak conference time was a Zer phenomenon. 44 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:07,340 Jeremy Price: Yeah. 45 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:10,640 Uh, especially in, I think our sort of realm, you know, the peak 46 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:16,130 DevOps conference meetup times were in those, those teen years. 47 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:16,940 Uh, well. 48 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,300 The 2010s, not our teen years. 49 00:02:20,050 --> 00:02:23,410 Corey : And it was very quickly getting into DevRel, talking to DevRel, and 50 00:02:23,470 --> 00:02:26,230 it was, this is, it was clear it wasn't gonna be sustainable, but man, 51 00:02:26,230 --> 00:02:29,080 do I miss the days of being able to get on stage five times a month and 52 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,110 just indulge my ongoing love affair with the sound of my own voice. 53 00:02:32,230 --> 00:02:33,520 Now I have to do that in a podcast. 54 00:02:34,210 --> 00:02:34,570 Jeremy Price: Yeah. 55 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:36,760 And it's all yours, so you don't have to ask anybody for permission. 56 00:02:37,330 --> 00:02:38,050 Corey : You would think that? 57 00:02:38,530 --> 00:02:39,100 Yeah. 58 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:39,460 Yeah. 59 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:43,510 We, we all have people we have to be held accountable to at, at some level. 60 00:02:43,750 --> 00:02:46,600 So Grokability has always been an interesting company. 61 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,990 I have been keeping an eye on it from the periphery. 62 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,470 I hate what you do, which is open source asset management. 63 00:02:53,470 --> 00:02:54,880 I don't like asset management. 64 00:02:54,910 --> 00:02:58,510 I, if I can't find something close at hand, well, it clearly has fallen 65 00:02:58,510 --> 00:03:00,520 into a, well, I'll buy a new one, but. 66 00:03:00,695 --> 00:03:03,484 That cuts against my entire life philosophy of always 67 00:03:03,484 --> 00:03:05,255 buying new toys with an excuse. 68 00:03:05,644 --> 00:03:07,325 But I like the open source model. 69 00:03:07,325 --> 00:03:11,315 I like the fact that you have been hosting this for customers who don't 70 00:03:11,315 --> 00:03:15,665 wanna run infrastructure themselves and have done, done this going from a just a 71 00:03:15,665 --> 00:03:18,485 few folks to, or 10 person company now. 72 00:03:18,860 --> 00:03:24,590 And your bootstrap, which is a fancy, disparaging term that we use in San 73 00:03:24,590 --> 00:03:28,760 Francisco, uh, for old timey business model that makes more money than it 74 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,680 spends like grandma used to make. 75 00:03:30,980 --> 00:03:34,760 And it's kind of a, a breath of fresh air. 76 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:35,570 Jeremy Price: Well, thanks. 77 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:35,900 Yeah. 78 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,840 Um, no, we, we are delighted by it. 79 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:41,075 Um, the whole thing started when my CEO. 80 00:03:41,615 --> 00:03:47,405 Uh, slash founder slash chief developer or head developer was working as 81 00:03:47,405 --> 00:03:49,205 a CTO at an ad firm in New York. 82 00:03:49,265 --> 00:03:55,175 And, um, they did an office move and lost a whole lot of equipment 83 00:03:55,175 --> 00:03:59,435 and they had no idea, uh, where to even start looking for it. 84 00:03:59,435 --> 00:04:01,955 And they figured out it was, you know, several, 85 00:04:01,955 --> 00:04:03,335 Corey : did they check their trunk? 86 00:04:04,695 --> 00:04:06,345 Jeremy Price: I think it was other people's trunks that were the issue, 87 00:04:06,345 --> 00:04:08,445 but they had no idea who to even go ask. 88 00:04:08,745 --> 00:04:12,555 Uh, and she was given, uh, zero budget to fix that. 89 00:04:12,765 --> 00:04:17,625 Um, and apparently all of the free stuff out there, uh, wasn't particularly good. 90 00:04:17,715 --> 00:04:19,845 Um, and so she said, well, I'll do what I always do. 91 00:04:19,845 --> 00:04:23,685 I'll go write my own solution and did, and put it out in the internet. 92 00:04:23,985 --> 00:04:24,525 Um. 93 00:04:24,990 --> 00:04:27,510 And apparently some people thought it was kind of cool instead 94 00:04:27,510 --> 00:04:28,530 of started contributing to it. 95 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:35,010 Uh, and years later on a dare, um, she put up a PayPal link on the website and 96 00:04:35,010 --> 00:04:38,190 said, Hey, if you don't wanna run this yourself, uh, we'll run it for you. 97 00:04:38,370 --> 00:04:41,430 Corey : That is such a perfect infrastructure way of thinking, 98 00:04:41,460 --> 00:04:43,170 because it's not, it's just a PHP app. 99 00:04:43,170 --> 00:04:44,370 It's not that hard to run it yourself. 100 00:04:44,370 --> 00:04:46,320 Who the hell would pay us to do that? 101 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:48,120 Well, almost nobody. 102 00:04:48,270 --> 00:04:52,590 The difference between absolutely nobody and almost nobody as it turns 103 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:54,360 out, can launch an entire company. 104 00:04:54,625 --> 00:04:55,375 Jeremy Price: Yeah, yeah. 105 00:04:55,375 --> 00:04:59,425 Within the first week, uh, she had lost the bet because three people had signed 106 00:04:59,425 --> 00:05:03,415 up and suddenly she figured out, needed to figure out how to host a thing. 107 00:05:03,745 --> 00:05:07,375 Several years later, um, her CTO and husband was working for 108 00:05:07,375 --> 00:05:08,545 me and she stole him from me. 109 00:05:08,935 --> 00:05:13,855 Um, and then I curse at her and she looked at me and said, you're next. 110 00:05:13,855 --> 00:05:17,995 And six months later, uh, and now almost five years, hence, uh, I 111 00:05:17,995 --> 00:05:21,145 came onto  Grokability and took over infrastructure and architecture. 112 00:05:22,465 --> 00:05:23,425 Of the hosting platform. 113 00:05:23,425 --> 00:05:26,095 She still runs the making of the software side of it. 114 00:05:26,575 --> 00:05:26,845 Corey : Yeah. 115 00:05:26,875 --> 00:05:30,805 It's, it's nice to be, that's sort of the dream, but like building SaaS that works. 116 00:05:30,805 --> 00:05:34,915 I mean, I, I would absolutely, if I were running infrastructure or asset 117 00:05:34,915 --> 00:05:37,735 management stuff, I would absolutely pay for something like this even if 118 00:05:37,735 --> 00:05:40,555 I wanted to host it myself, which for something back office like 119 00:05:40,555 --> 00:05:41,935 this, that isn't critical path. 120 00:05:42,565 --> 00:05:45,535 I don't know that I necessarily would, but even if I did host it myself, 121 00:05:45,685 --> 00:05:50,875 there's something to be said by, for changing the nature of your relationship 122 00:05:50,875 --> 00:05:56,515 with the software, going from user to customer by, by the act of giving you a 123 00:05:56,515 --> 00:06:02,365 dollar, I have now triggered an alchemy where suddenly you have to you, you're 124 00:06:02,365 --> 00:06:03,775 sort of beholden to me on some level. 125 00:06:03,895 --> 00:06:06,655 You don't have to build every feature I ask for, but you're inherently 126 00:06:06,655 --> 00:06:07,945 gonna take them more seriously. 127 00:06:08,195 --> 00:06:11,885 Jeremy Price: Yes, we find that, and I think ironically, um, the 128 00:06:11,885 --> 00:06:16,985 people who pay us, the people who are actually entitled to our time, 129 00:06:17,075 --> 00:06:23,825 um, and our services are the most polite, um, and the more understanding 130 00:06:23,885 --> 00:06:25,505 than a lot of our open source. 131 00:06:25,505 --> 00:06:28,385 And don't get me wrong, we have a lot of wonderful open source 132 00:06:28,385 --> 00:06:30,395 users and contributors and whatnot. 133 00:06:30,395 --> 00:06:33,215 But, but, but yes, we've found that, um. 134 00:06:33,675 --> 00:06:39,015 The overwhelming majority of people feeling really, really entitled to 135 00:06:39,015 --> 00:06:43,785 their feature or our time, uh, or our, you know, debugging are the 136 00:06:43,785 --> 00:06:45,375 people who are not in fact paying us. 137 00:06:45,375 --> 00:06:49,275 And the people who are paying us, um, tend to be really, really nice about it. 138 00:06:49,275 --> 00:06:52,335 And I think that's a, a broader trend in open source, but it's been 139 00:06:52,335 --> 00:06:53,865 fascinating to see up close and personal. 140 00:06:54,460 --> 00:06:59,860 Corey : It's, it's hard in that a lot of folks who fall down this well of doing a, 141 00:06:59,860 --> 00:07:04,000 I'm gonna build a open source company, do it by, alright, I'm gonna build a thing, 142 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000 I'm gonna take a bunch of VC money, which inherently means that there's an expected 143 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,160 return ratio that is not easy to hit. 144 00:07:09,430 --> 00:07:13,540 And uh, there was an era where folks did this and assume that, 145 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:14,830 well, we wrote the software. 146 00:07:14,830 --> 00:07:18,160 Clearly we are the best folks to operationalize that and run it. 147 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,380 And AWS said, here, hold my tea. 148 00:07:21,380 --> 00:07:22,310 I'm gonna want it back. 149 00:07:22,310 --> 00:07:23,630 We don't give you free anything. 150 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:27,350 And, and suddenly they're, Hey, that's not fair. 151 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:28,670 I disagree. 152 00:07:28,670 --> 00:07:31,790 I think that, that people want, on some level the upside of open 153 00:07:31,790 --> 00:07:33,140 source with none of the downsides. 154 00:07:33,470 --> 00:07:37,010 Uh, you have demonstrated that it is possible to make a healthy, sustainable 155 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,170 business by doing exactly this. 156 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:42,050 Jeremy Price: You know, one of those conversations that we have occasionally 157 00:07:42,050 --> 00:07:46,370 is what happens along if somebody comes along and can do this way better than us. 158 00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:47,990 And, you know, maybe that happens. 159 00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:48,800 That's the risk we take. 160 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,130 I mean, A GPL, they're absolutely, you know, welcome to do that. 161 00:07:52,550 --> 00:07:57,200 Um, but you know, we're, to your point, we, we are not beholden to 162 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,100 VCs and, and, you know, expected returns and all that sort of thing. 163 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,590 Um, we are fans of slow steady growth, um, that lets us. 164 00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:08,710 You know, do what we wanna do. 165 00:08:08,740 --> 00:08:11,800 You know, we don't, you know, fortunately, we're, we're a bunch of folks who 166 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,330 aren't particularly, uh, set on, you know, Lambos and yachts and whatnot. 167 00:08:16,330 --> 00:08:19,570 And so, you know, do we, do we need a hockey stick? 168 00:08:19,570 --> 00:08:19,870 No. 169 00:08:19,870 --> 00:08:23,800 You know, we, uh, we are able to pay ourselves and our employees pretty well. 170 00:08:23,950 --> 00:08:27,430 Things keep going up, and that's really what we want. 171 00:08:27,430 --> 00:08:28,450 You know, we, we, uh. 172 00:08:29,275 --> 00:08:32,755 We, we do seem to have the concept of enough, which is sorely lacking in 173 00:08:32,755 --> 00:08:35,605 a lot of, um, businesses these days. 174 00:08:35,725 --> 00:08:40,225 Corey : So I have to ask, because it seems like everything can give 175 00:08:40,225 --> 00:08:41,515 the, the obvious answer to this. 176 00:08:41,905 --> 00:08:46,915 In the five years you've been there, how, if any has, or the product 177 00:08:46,915 --> 00:08:48,265 that Grokability makes in shit, 178 00:08:49,045 --> 00:08:51,205 Jeremy Price: I don't think that it has. 179 00:08:51,685 --> 00:08:52,585 Um. 180 00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:58,990 You know, again, without having a board or VCs going, oh, hey, you 181 00:08:58,990 --> 00:09:03,219 need to jump on this latest trend, otherwise we're gonna miss out. 182 00:09:03,219 --> 00:09:03,640 Right? 183 00:09:03,699 --> 00:09:11,079 Um, you know, we get to take a really deliberate and sober look at, well, okay, 184 00:09:11,110 --> 00:09:15,040 there is this neat new tech that's out there that can do some really neat things. 185 00:09:15,310 --> 00:09:17,020 Does it make sense for us? 186 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:18,490 Does it make sense? 187 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:24,430 Our product, and we, we do this with everything from, you know, crypto to 188 00:09:24,430 --> 00:09:26,859 ai, to, you know, fancy new things. 189 00:09:26,859 --> 00:09:31,569 When our developers go to, you know, a, a conference and see the new whizzbang 190 00:09:31,569 --> 00:09:35,290 features coming out in the framework that we use, and they come back 191 00:09:35,290 --> 00:09:36,579 and go, Hey, what about this thing? 192 00:09:36,579 --> 00:09:39,040 We're like, well, that's cool, but you know, is it actually gonna be 193 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,640 around in three years and we've converted over this thing and hey, 194 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,259 new whizzbang, whatchamacallit. 195 00:09:44,604 --> 00:09:47,665 What value does it actually bring to us, or the product or our customers? 196 00:09:48,055 --> 00:09:51,114 Uh, and if our customers aren't banging down the door asking for the thing, 197 00:09:51,114 --> 00:09:53,035 then why the heck would we build it? 198 00:09:53,094 --> 00:09:57,055 Like, you know, we like our software and we think we do a good job at it. 199 00:09:57,145 --> 00:09:59,694 Um, but we also know that we're not saving the world with it, and 200 00:09:59,694 --> 00:10:03,895 we're not, you know, doing visionary thought leadery work, right? 201 00:10:04,105 --> 00:10:08,725 We're making something that is a utility that serves a purpose 202 00:10:08,725 --> 00:10:11,095 and solves a need for customers. 203 00:10:11,275 --> 00:10:12,925 Corey : Oh, what you built is boring as hell. 204 00:10:13,015 --> 00:10:15,595 And I love boring businesses because what do they do? 205 00:10:15,595 --> 00:10:16,435 They make money. 206 00:10:16,735 --> 00:10:17,695 Jeremy Price: Right, right. 207 00:10:17,875 --> 00:10:20,425 Corey : And there are, and it isn't massively overheated. 208 00:10:20,425 --> 00:10:24,325 Like, I'm going to be the best AI coding company and now 209 00:10:24,325 --> 00:10:25,135 we're going outta business. 210 00:10:25,165 --> 00:10:28,705 'cause I took a day off to take a nap finally, and we got outperformed by 211 00:10:28,705 --> 00:10:30,505 the 17 competitors in our building. 212 00:10:30,775 --> 00:10:31,105 Jeremy Price: Yeah. 213 00:10:31,765 --> 00:10:33,354 It, well, we, you know, boring company. 214 00:10:33,685 --> 00:10:39,354 And, um, you know, we, we've, uh, I don't think we gave the talk of, or 215 00:10:39,354 --> 00:10:42,025 we've given versions of this talk of, you know, choose boring tech. 216 00:10:42,114 --> 00:10:44,155 I think that particular title was somebody else. 217 00:10:44,425 --> 00:10:48,954 Um, but, you know, some of my friends who are still in, you know, Silicon 218 00:10:48,954 --> 00:10:52,944 Valley startup plan, you know, how's, how's working for a PHP shop going? 219 00:10:52,944 --> 00:10:56,545 It's like, what, what my CEO likes to say is, is that, hey, you know, you call 220 00:10:56,545 --> 00:10:57,849 somebody who's still in the codes in PHP. 221 00:10:58,930 --> 00:10:59,440 Employed. 222 00:11:00,310 --> 00:11:00,550 Corey : Yeah. 223 00:11:00,910 --> 00:11:04,390 Also, like, um, you know, the term I like as well is legacy code. 224 00:11:04,570 --> 00:11:04,930 Uh, yeah. 225 00:11:04,930 --> 00:11:05,890 What does legacy mean? 226 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:08,260 It's a condescending engineering term for, it makes money. 227 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:08,740 Jeremy Price: Yeah. 228 00:11:08,830 --> 00:11:12,550 And here's the thing, you know, uh, we may use boring tech. 229 00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:14,050 There are still interesting problems to solve. 230 00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:17,230 Um, and we get to focus on them without. 231 00:11:18,129 --> 00:11:23,439 You know, uh, a new objective every month because, you know, 232 00:11:23,439 --> 00:11:27,849 somebody saw an ad in, in an airline magazine or some VC said, Hey, 233 00:11:28,180 --> 00:11:30,189 Corey : I'm gonna dunk on Slack because I can. 234 00:11:30,189 --> 00:11:32,829 At some point, slack was basically feature, complete, and awesome. 235 00:11:32,829 --> 00:11:36,040 And then honestly, what they should have done is given amazing 236 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,800 severance packages, their entire product team, and called it a week. 237 00:11:39,055 --> 00:11:43,135 And instead they just kept iterating and making the product incrementally 238 00:11:43,135 --> 00:11:44,724 worse with every new release. 239 00:11:44,755 --> 00:11:48,505 And it's, it's awful because you have to relearn where things are in the interface. 240 00:11:48,505 --> 00:11:50,635 I just got back from a week and a half away and sure enough, 241 00:11:50,635 --> 00:11:54,864 things have moved around again and it's, it's just obnoxious. 242 00:11:54,925 --> 00:11:55,194 So. 243 00:11:55,615 --> 00:11:58,915 My question for you that I see this in a bunch of open source 244 00:11:58,915 --> 00:12:00,325 quote unquote companies out there. 245 00:12:00,595 --> 00:12:05,365 Have you ever, as a company and as an open source project, rejected 246 00:12:05,365 --> 00:12:08,845 feature enhancements that folks have pull requested on the grounds of it 247 00:12:08,845 --> 00:12:10,060 competes with your paid offering? 248 00:12:10,735 --> 00:12:11,425 Jeremy Price: No, 249 00:12:11,755 --> 00:12:13,285 Corey : because there are legitimate times to do that. 250 00:12:13,285 --> 00:12:15,535 I wanna be clear, I know it sounds like I'm, I'm loading this 251 00:12:15,535 --> 00:12:16,615 up to beat the crap out of you. 252 00:12:16,615 --> 00:12:20,905 The answer is yes, but it's, there are good reasons to do that with transparency. 253 00:12:21,055 --> 00:12:21,685 Jeremy Price: Absolutely. 254 00:12:21,685 --> 00:12:24,235 No, I, and that for some companies and some places that makes sense. 255 00:12:24,235 --> 00:12:27,714 So our paid offering is our open source offering. 256 00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:30,010 We are just the ones running it. 257 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,780 Um, we don't feature gate. 258 00:12:31,870 --> 00:12:36,400 The things that we have service tiers on are things that 259 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,900 cost us more money to host. 260 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:41,319 You want to handle more requests because you're a huge shop and 261 00:12:41,319 --> 00:12:42,490 you have big API integrations. 262 00:12:42,699 --> 00:12:43,089 Cool. 263 00:12:43,209 --> 00:12:44,829 We'll sell you a dedicated instance. 264 00:12:45,069 --> 00:12:47,110 Um, but we don't care how many users you. 265 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,680 Corey : Yeah, automatic backups, for example, are not available. 266 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:51,839 If you look at your pricing chart here, if you look at your feature matrix 267 00:12:51,839 --> 00:12:55,170 here, it's, uh, the automatic backups, for example, are not necessarily 268 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:56,490 there, neither automated upgrades. 269 00:12:56,490 --> 00:12:58,949 Well, if you're self-hosting it, that, that's a one line cr job. 270 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:00,420 Uh, good luck with it. 271 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:02,010 But that does not a backup make. 272 00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:04,770 It's easy to look at that and think, oh, you're just, you're obfuscating 273 00:13:04,770 --> 00:13:05,970 it and making it very hard. 274 00:13:05,970 --> 00:13:07,110 Do a restore on it. 275 00:13:07,199 --> 00:13:08,370 Nothing could be further from the truth. 276 00:13:08,905 --> 00:13:10,525 Jeremy Price: No, it just, that's just something that you 277 00:13:10,525 --> 00:13:12,324 have to do, that we do for you. 278 00:13:12,564 --> 00:13:16,854 Um, but that is not something that you get as, as a product of a default install. 279 00:13:16,854 --> 00:13:17,875 It's absolutely available. 280 00:13:17,875 --> 00:13:21,505 Like there's, there's a backup command, there's a backup push button. 281 00:13:21,925 --> 00:13:26,094 We do all of that for you and the rotation, all those other things. 282 00:13:26,094 --> 00:13:30,204 So, you know, it, it is just a matter of, um, these things are 283 00:13:30,204 --> 00:13:31,734 some, not something that happened. 284 00:13:32,319 --> 00:13:35,500 With the default install script, but they're absolutely available. 285 00:13:35,625 --> 00:13:37,720 I, I think we, we've actually had the reverse. 286 00:13:37,810 --> 00:13:44,020 Um, I, and speaking of the enshittification part, um, we have a very 287 00:13:44,020 --> 00:13:51,610 serious tension, um, between things that will make it easier for us to run, um, 288 00:13:51,970 --> 00:13:54,610 that have no utility for anyone else. 289 00:13:54,699 --> 00:13:55,180 Um. 290 00:13:56,095 --> 00:14:02,815 And, uh, Allison, our, our CEO, known as Snipe Head Online, um, is very, 291 00:14:02,815 --> 00:14:08,155 very, it is very hard to convince her to put something in the software. 292 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:10,329 Where that is the case. 293 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:14,560 You know, if I come and go, Hey, you know, for letting users know that, 294 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,069 you know, there's, you know, some storage limit or something, right. 295 00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:19,510 You know, we, we, I wanna put in this thing. 296 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:21,969 She's like, okay, but who the hell else is gonna use that 297 00:14:22,030 --> 00:14:23,499 notification system for anything? 298 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,089 Corey : This episode is sponsored in part by my day job Duck. 299 00:14:27,089 --> 00:14:30,300 Bill, do you have a horrifying AWS bill? 300 00:14:30,569 --> 00:14:32,459 That can mean a lot of things. 301 00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:36,689 Predicting what it's going to be, determining what it should be, 302 00:14:36,959 --> 00:14:41,910 negotiating your next long-term contract with AWS, or just figuring 303 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:43,829 out why it increasingly resembles. 304 00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:47,699 Phone number, but nobody seems to quite know why that is. 305 00:14:47,999 --> 00:14:51,569 To learn more, visit duck bill hq.com. 306 00:14:51,869 --> 00:14:54,749 Remember, you can't duck the duck bill. 307 00:14:54,810 --> 00:15:00,150 Bill, which my CEO reliably informs me is absolutely not our slogan. 308 00:15:00,715 --> 00:15:03,535 So much of the stuff I have built, like this is where I found Jet AI coding 309 00:15:03,535 --> 00:15:04,825 assistant's been super useful for. 310 00:15:04,825 --> 00:15:07,465 It's a bunch of the glue code that solves specific problems that are 311 00:15:07,495 --> 00:15:10,045 unique to my workflow and environment. 312 00:15:10,345 --> 00:15:13,975 Uh, people say, well, people's workloads are not as specific as you think. 313 00:15:13,975 --> 00:15:14,395 Really? 314 00:15:14,395 --> 00:15:17,395 You mean that every other people are using this hack to death newsletter, 315 00:15:17,395 --> 00:15:20,965 publication system That also integrates into my podcasting system and recording 316 00:15:20,965 --> 00:15:24,895 stuff so that I have to basically fire off a bunch of stuff that orchestrates it and 317 00:15:24,895 --> 00:15:26,725 I just push a button on my stream deck. 318 00:15:26,785 --> 00:15:27,205 Really? 319 00:15:27,265 --> 00:15:28,765 Where can I download that repo? 320 00:15:29,285 --> 00:15:30,215 Turns out it's not a thing. 321 00:15:30,425 --> 00:15:30,845 Jeremy Price: Right? 322 00:15:31,025 --> 00:15:34,415 And, and there is, there is a whole lot that goes into 323 00:15:34,655 --> 00:15:35,945 running this system at scale. 324 00:15:35,945 --> 00:15:37,355 We actually, we don't run a system. 325 00:15:37,355 --> 00:15:42,185 We run 6,000 individual installations of this system because it's not, we didn't 326 00:15:42,185 --> 00:15:44,675 build it to be a cloud service, right? 327 00:15:44,675 --> 00:15:47,015 We built it to be something that you download and you run. 328 00:15:47,315 --> 00:15:49,085 Um, and that certainly. 329 00:15:49,569 --> 00:15:53,019 Creates some difficulties for us in how we have to host it, but it 330 00:15:53,019 --> 00:15:56,560 also, uh, creates a whole bunch of really natural security boundaries 331 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,509 around it, which we really like. 332 00:15:58,719 --> 00:16:03,819 Uh, and so in a lot of ways, we're not even inclined to ever make it a single 333 00:16:03,819 --> 00:16:06,999 application cloud service, um, because it. 334 00:16:07,855 --> 00:16:11,694 Well, again, it helps us keep us honest around what's going into the product, 335 00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:16,765 that make sure that what's going into the product is makes sense for the product. 336 00:16:17,095 --> 00:16:20,455 Um, you know, you know, we. 337 00:16:21,805 --> 00:16:28,555 Allison, um, her husband slash CCO Brady and I, um, less so, you know, some of the, 338 00:16:28,555 --> 00:16:31,645 the, the younger folks at the company, um, or the folks in less technical roles. 339 00:16:31,645 --> 00:16:37,494 But we all owe an awful lot of our careers to the open source world. 340 00:16:37,854 --> 00:16:39,505 Um, and so we have. 341 00:16:39,584 --> 00:16:42,644 You know, real part of the reason that it is open source 342 00:16:42,644 --> 00:16:43,574 is because we want to give back. 343 00:16:43,574 --> 00:16:46,844 Like we, we could totally go, Hey, this is a great business and let's, you know, 344 00:16:46,844 --> 00:16:50,834 relicense the thing and close it off and do what so many companies have, you know, 345 00:16:50,834 --> 00:16:52,994 made, uh, horrific mistakes about doing. 346 00:16:53,324 --> 00:16:58,484 Um, but, but we don't want to because we like that we can give 347 00:16:58,484 --> 00:17:01,754 back to this community and be a part of that community and. 348 00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:06,159 As part of that, we don't want to inify the product any more 349 00:17:06,159 --> 00:17:07,269 than absolutely necessary. 350 00:17:07,269 --> 00:17:10,689 I think the last thing that we did was we allowed a bare metrics integration 351 00:17:10,689 --> 00:17:15,129 so that we could, you know, let people know, Hey you, you really need to pay us. 352 00:17:16,389 --> 00:17:16,779 Corey : Don't worry. 353 00:17:16,779 --> 00:17:17,409 It shut down. 354 00:17:17,919 --> 00:17:18,999 Jeremy Price: What's that it? 355 00:17:19,149 --> 00:17:19,839 Corey : Bare metrics died. 356 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:21,500 Jeremy Price: No, no. 357 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:22,369 I logged into them. 358 00:17:22,699 --> 00:17:23,359 Corey : He sold it. 359 00:17:23,365 --> 00:17:24,139 I didn't, I didn't realize. 360 00:17:24,169 --> 00:17:24,409 Oh, yeah. 361 00:17:24,409 --> 00:17:25,159 I guess it does still exist. 362 00:17:25,159 --> 00:17:25,369 That's right. 363 00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:27,530 The founder, the founder started it. 364 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:28,310 I, okay. 365 00:17:28,310 --> 00:17:30,710 I instantly can't load it, which tells me that it, uh, basically 366 00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:34,460 is using the same domain as the tracking beacons of my DNS filter. 367 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:35,449 Killed it, but still. 368 00:17:35,540 --> 00:17:35,990 Okay. 369 00:17:36,369 --> 00:17:37,389 It's just dead to me. 370 00:17:37,389 --> 00:17:38,079 Problem solve. 371 00:17:38,199 --> 00:17:38,559 Jeremy Price: Right. 372 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:38,799 Right. 373 00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:39,099 Yeah. 374 00:17:39,249 --> 00:17:40,749 Corey : Uh, Josh Pigford was the guy who did it. 375 00:17:40,869 --> 00:17:41,259 Yeah. 376 00:17:41,529 --> 00:17:44,979 He would engrave tweets on a wood burn between a wood burner onto pieces of wood. 377 00:17:44,979 --> 00:17:47,319 I have a few of my bangers slapped around the office. 378 00:17:48,219 --> 00:17:48,999 Jeremy Price: Fantastic. 379 00:17:50,049 --> 00:17:52,749 Uh, but yeah, no, we, you know, we, we, we use them for tracking and whatnot. 380 00:17:52,749 --> 00:17:53,209 We, you know. 381 00:17:54,219 --> 00:17:54,610 They're fine. 382 00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:55,239 Corey : No, it's fine. 383 00:17:55,239 --> 00:17:55,840 I just haven't used it. 384 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,399 I forgot they were around, but it's stuff like that. 385 00:17:57,399 --> 00:17:57,969 That's terrific. 386 00:17:57,999 --> 00:18:01,389 It's the, it's the ability to solve some of these backend business 387 00:18:01,389 --> 00:18:04,149 problems and it's, I like your pricing. 388 00:18:04,149 --> 00:18:04,779 It is. 389 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,049 It caps out the enterprise support and the biggest tier you've got, I think it's 390 00:18:08,049 --> 00:18:11,649 7,500 bucks a year, which is terrific. 391 00:18:11,715 --> 00:18:12,165 Great. 392 00:18:12,225 --> 00:18:15,254 That also what I like about that top tier pricing is it's very 393 00:18:15,254 --> 00:18:18,794 clear that you're not one of those disastrous businesses that has, well, 394 00:18:18,794 --> 00:18:21,195 one company is 80% of our revenue. 395 00:18:21,435 --> 00:18:24,764 So it's basically like we're a division of them without the upside. 396 00:18:25,274 --> 00:18:29,445 Jeremy Price: And when you have those sorts of whale clients, suddenly they 397 00:18:29,445 --> 00:18:31,365 have lots of leverage over your direction. 398 00:18:32,504 --> 00:18:32,865 Right. 399 00:18:32,865 --> 00:18:35,185 And suddenly you're going to jump, uh, you know. 400 00:18:35,534 --> 00:18:39,195 Step, step two, hop two, jump two, you're, you're gonna step in line when they say, 401 00:18:39,195 --> 00:18:43,394 Hey, here's this feature request, which again, might not make sense for 99 point, 402 00:18:43,604 --> 00:18:45,254 you know, five nines of our clients. 403 00:18:45,675 --> 00:18:46,995 Um, but they want it. 404 00:18:46,995 --> 00:18:51,165 And so, well, we like our business, so we better actually make it happen for them. 405 00:18:51,495 --> 00:18:54,735 Um, you know, it's, it's again, that sort of freedom that we have 406 00:18:54,735 --> 00:18:56,264 with not being beholden to VCs. 407 00:18:56,264 --> 00:18:58,094 We're also not beholden to any particular customer. 408 00:18:58,364 --> 00:18:59,205 We certainly take. 409 00:18:59,965 --> 00:19:02,094 Those can, you know, those requests into consideration. 410 00:19:02,094 --> 00:19:04,645 I think we even say, you know, prioritized, you know, feature 411 00:19:04,645 --> 00:19:05,634 requests and that sort of stuff. 412 00:19:05,634 --> 00:19:09,145 But it still goes through the, does this make sense for the product filter? 413 00:19:09,715 --> 00:19:11,574 Uh, and if it doesn't make sense for the product, we say, 414 00:19:11,574 --> 00:19:12,384 Hey, we're sorry, but that. 415 00:19:12,774 --> 00:19:16,195 That just doesn't align with how the direction we wanna go. 416 00:19:16,614 --> 00:19:19,044 Corey : Not, not that you're under active development or anything, but 417 00:19:19,074 --> 00:19:22,405 uh, when I clicked the demo page, I got a pop, it's a down for maintenance. 418 00:19:22,405 --> 00:19:25,254 The site is down for maintenance, will be back up asap, which is 419 00:19:25,254 --> 00:19:28,195 normally the rallying cry of things that are busted and don't work. 420 00:19:28,344 --> 00:19:31,195 But I clicked it again 30 seconds later and suddenly it works again. 421 00:19:31,195 --> 00:19:33,804 It's, oh, the website didn't lie to me. 422 00:19:33,804 --> 00:19:34,014 What? 423 00:19:34,114 --> 00:19:34,894 Concept. 424 00:19:36,064 --> 00:19:36,334 Jeremy Price: Yeah. 425 00:19:36,334 --> 00:19:39,034 You know, I, I feel bad for the folks that that happened to hit that. 426 00:19:39,064 --> 00:19:42,214 Um, so we, it is a, um, almost. 427 00:19:43,044 --> 00:19:45,655 Entirely fully active demo of the site. 428 00:19:45,655 --> 00:19:48,415 There are certain things that, like, we don't allow you to send emails because, 429 00:19:48,534 --> 00:19:49,615 Corey : or create a API keys. 430 00:19:49,615 --> 00:19:52,675 I just tried, so yeah, no free database for me today. 431 00:19:53,034 --> 00:19:56,245 Jeremy Price: Uh, you can create users and you can create products, and you can 432 00:19:56,245 --> 00:19:57,685 create, you can do all of these things. 433 00:19:57,835 --> 00:20:00,715 Um, but there are other people logging into that same demo site 434 00:20:00,715 --> 00:20:05,245 and so, uh, a few times a day, it just resets all of the databases 435 00:20:05,245 --> 00:20:07,435 because, uh, people are horrible. 436 00:20:07,645 --> 00:20:10,794 Um, and I think there was actually a product demo one time with a, 437 00:20:10,794 --> 00:20:14,119 a. Client whose name everybody listening to this would know. 438 00:20:14,419 --> 00:20:17,599 Um, and we took them into the demo site and somebody on the other end of the call 439 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:22,639 went, why is the first user in that ass blaster 3 0 1 or something like that? 440 00:20:22,639 --> 00:20:23,389 And we were like, oh. 441 00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:26,440 Corey : Because the first 300 were taken. 442 00:20:28,750 --> 00:20:29,470 Jeremy Price: Exactly. 443 00:20:29,649 --> 00:20:30,159 Exactly. 444 00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:30,639 But yeah, no, 445 00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:32,470 Corey : you know, would confronted with that nonsense. 446 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:33,220 You've gotta be quick. 447 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,610 Someone once asked, on the first time I brought out an, I trotted out a, uh, 448 00:20:37,030 --> 00:20:41,169 my, a new slide template for a talk that I, it designer got me the day before. 449 00:20:41,169 --> 00:20:42,129 I was in such a rush. 450 00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:44,379 There were three ends in my Twitter username. 451 00:20:44,379 --> 00:20:48,070 And so first question in q and a NIK conference was, uh, so why is there an 452 00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:50,440 extra n in your username at the bottom? 453 00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:52,690 Well, n plus one redundancy obviously. 454 00:20:54,879 --> 00:20:55,269 Amazing. 455 00:20:55,269 --> 00:20:56,709 Did you go out and register that one real quick? 456 00:20:57,069 --> 00:20:57,519 Right? 457 00:20:57,699 --> 00:20:58,659 No, I fixed the slide deck. 458 00:20:58,659 --> 00:20:59,079 It was easier. 459 00:20:59,229 --> 00:21:00,129 Jeremy Price: Okay, fair enough. 460 00:21:00,369 --> 00:21:00,519 Yeah. 461 00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:03,099 Again, you know, demo site, same as what you're gonna get, same as what 462 00:21:03,099 --> 00:21:04,179 you're gonna get if you download. 463 00:21:04,329 --> 00:21:06,189 Um, we just take away the pain for you. 464 00:21:07,014 --> 00:21:10,374 Corey : I've used a bunch of real asset stuff back in my SMB days, 465 00:21:10,434 --> 00:21:13,884 uh, you know, 20 years ago, and this is better than those things. 466 00:21:13,884 --> 00:21:16,854 It's, it feels like, oh, asset management database. 467 00:21:16,854 --> 00:21:18,504 You mean a shared Google sheet? 468 00:21:18,534 --> 00:21:19,014 And, yeah. 469 00:21:19,014 --> 00:21:21,564 That'll work until you wanna do other things. 470 00:21:21,564 --> 00:21:23,514 It, this is one of those things where, oh, I'll just have 471 00:21:23,514 --> 00:21:24,955 Claude Vibe code one for me. 472 00:21:25,014 --> 00:21:25,764 Oh, this weekend. 473 00:21:26,454 --> 00:21:27,174 Jeremy Price: And you know what? 474 00:21:27,174 --> 00:21:30,444 You can have Claude Vibe code one for you, uh, and then, 475 00:21:30,834 --> 00:21:34,404 Corey : or you could just get clone and run it yourself if that's your bent. 476 00:21:34,584 --> 00:21:35,034 Jeremy Price: Right? 477 00:21:35,544 --> 00:21:38,184 Well, and you know, it's one of those things, you know, to your point, we're 478 00:21:38,184 --> 00:21:41,724 still under active development and here we are, you know, I think 11 years in 479 00:21:41,724 --> 00:21:43,284 since the, the start of the product. 480 00:21:43,284 --> 00:21:45,534 I think it was about a year later that Allison started a company for it. 481 00:21:45,744 --> 00:21:50,934 But, you know, it, it turns out that, um, there are a lot of weird use cases that. 482 00:21:51,209 --> 00:21:52,499 Various companies have that. 483 00:21:52,499 --> 00:21:55,679 Various people have, um, and a whole lot of features and a lot 484 00:21:55,679 --> 00:21:56,969 of places do different things. 485 00:21:56,969 --> 00:22:00,899 I mean, I, I know that's should be obvious, but a lot of times it's not. 486 00:22:00,899 --> 00:22:01,079 Right. 487 00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:05,669 It sounds like a very defined space and it turns out there's just. 488 00:22:05,739 --> 00:22:09,459 A, a zillion ways to do asset management. 489 00:22:09,579 --> 00:22:13,120 It turns out, and we have our opinions about those and you know, we, we stick 490 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,370 to the ones where it makes sense, but sometimes you just get enough people 491 00:22:15,370 --> 00:22:21,159 going, no, but actually we wanna do this kind of thing that you don't understand. 492 00:22:21,159 --> 00:22:22,299 But that's just how we are. 493 00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:23,409 And we're like, well, okay. 494 00:22:23,409 --> 00:22:25,359 And again, sometimes that leads to. 495 00:22:25,445 --> 00:22:28,595 Well, that just doesn't make sense for how this product works, and 496 00:22:28,655 --> 00:22:30,814 we don't get those customers, and that's unfortunate, but that's why 497 00:22:30,814 --> 00:22:32,044 there are other products out there 498 00:22:32,764 --> 00:22:34,745 Corey : just flipping through your customer testimonials, like this 499 00:22:34,745 --> 00:22:39,665 place, like Triple H Group, uh, a bunch of smaller companies, Microsoft, 500 00:22:39,695 --> 00:22:42,665 like, okay, these, these are serious companies that are using this stuff. 501 00:22:42,879 --> 00:22:45,939 Jeremy Price: Yeah, we have, we have, um, a whole bunch of companies that 502 00:22:46,089 --> 00:22:49,479 have not given us permission to put their logos on the site yet, but we, 503 00:22:49,479 --> 00:22:52,719 you know, we want to reach out to them, um, and do that because, yeah, 504 00:22:52,719 --> 00:22:56,499 no, there are a lot of companies that you would know, um, who use our stuff. 505 00:22:56,649 --> 00:23:00,009 Uh, either our service or some of them run it themselves. 506 00:23:00,069 --> 00:23:02,620 Um, Linus Tech Tips is, has called us out a few different times 507 00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:03,414 for, oh yeah, we run Snipe It. 508 00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:06,799 Corey : We talk about earlier about engineering brain, but 509 00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:07,939 I have the exact same thing. 510 00:23:07,939 --> 00:23:10,549 Like, oh, what, what the hell good is having testimonials like that. 511 00:23:10,669 --> 00:23:14,239 But as soon as I put a few big company logos on the duck Bills 512 00:23:14,239 --> 00:23:18,110 site years ago, the, the sales calls changed basically instantly. 513 00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:22,580 From who are you people again and what do you do to, do you think you can help us? 514 00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:27,169 It's, it was suddenly a mark of credibility that completely got 515 00:23:27,169 --> 00:23:28,820 rid of a whole class of objection. 516 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,710 Once it became clear that this was not our first rodeo and they would not be the only 517 00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:35,330 big company we'd ever worked with before. 518 00:23:35,629 --> 00:23:35,870 Jeremy Price: Right? 519 00:23:35,870 --> 00:23:38,210 Do we wanna be the first people to take a risk on you? 520 00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:38,870 And if that's. 521 00:23:39,224 --> 00:23:41,144 If they don't have to be that, then suddenly to your 522 00:23:41,144 --> 00:23:42,794 point, it lends credibility. 523 00:23:43,094 --> 00:23:43,364 Corey : Yeah. 524 00:23:43,574 --> 00:23:45,644 And now of course with the big companies, you never get that. 525 00:23:45,794 --> 00:23:48,464 So every year at finops X, for example, we'll Introdu, we'll have 526 00:23:48,464 --> 00:23:51,614 a dinner or we'll uh, host introduce some of our customers to each other. 527 00:23:51,884 --> 00:23:55,454 And it's fun 'cause you can see the same process go through where. 528 00:23:55,814 --> 00:23:58,725 Each company thinks they're sort of our only really big customer, but 529 00:23:58,725 --> 00:24:02,865 you know, insurance company, meet bank, meet airline, and suddenly 530 00:24:02,865 --> 00:24:06,105 they're realizing, oh, oh, these are this, these are my people. 531 00:24:06,495 --> 00:24:10,485 There's, but without those logos, it sounds like, oh, yes. 532 00:24:10,665 --> 00:24:15,450 Uh, we have solved AWS bills for, we're spending hundreds of dollars a month. 533 00:24:15,999 --> 00:24:17,169 Jeremy Price: Right, right. 534 00:24:17,169 --> 00:24:23,620 And, and well, and you know, we're, we're not a, I mean, it 535 00:24:23,649 --> 00:24:26,919 apparently asset management stuff was asset management space we're 536 00:24:26,919 --> 00:24:28,299 actually a decently known name. 537 00:24:28,569 --> 00:24:32,080 Um, I didn't really exist in the asset management space before, so I 538 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,389 knew about it because I knew Allison. 539 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,319 But like, we have a whole subreddit and we get recommended on asset management. 540 00:24:39,819 --> 00:24:41,199 Places and, and this and that. 541 00:24:41,259 --> 00:24:44,919 Um, but, but yeah, if, if, uh, you know, if you just come to our 542 00:24:44,919 --> 00:24:46,360 webpage, like, I love our webpage. 543 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:50,049 I think it's a lot of fun, but it doesn't exactly scream, you know, 544 00:24:50,049 --> 00:24:53,889 enterprise corporate when you've got a, you know, cartoon mohawk lady on 545 00:24:53,889 --> 00:24:55,659 your, on the front page of your website. 546 00:24:55,779 --> 00:24:56,979 Corey : It's funny you mention that. 547 00:24:56,979 --> 00:24:58,689 We're in the middle of a website redesigned for duck. 548 00:24:59,060 --> 00:25:03,110 Where we are attenuating some of the branding over there that I use a lot for 549 00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:07,250 last week in AWS because something we have found over the years has been that 550 00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:10,700 final stage when we wind up doing a deal, we, it's usually a bank shot off someone 551 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:15,020 in engineering, which is who I talk to in my podcast newsletters, et cetera. 552 00:25:15,139 --> 00:25:17,300 I don't, there's not a lot of you listening to this 553 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:18,590 that work in procurement. 554 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:21,679 For example, if you, if you, that is you and I'm wrong, please reach out. 555 00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:23,000 I would love to talk to you. 556 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,110 I'm not trying to sell you anything. 557 00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:26,389 I, I just want to talk and. 558 00:25:26,824 --> 00:25:29,885 So instead, so there's always a series of introductions during the enterprise 559 00:25:29,885 --> 00:25:32,794 sales process and very often at the end there's some C-level has to sign 560 00:25:32,794 --> 00:25:36,935 off on it that has never heard of anything, uh, that I've said or done. 561 00:25:36,995 --> 00:25:39,365 And they go to the site and back when it was a lot more 562 00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:41,195 like the last week in AWS sites. 563 00:25:41,774 --> 00:25:44,745 Why, why is there a platypus and why is he still angry? 564 00:25:44,745 --> 00:25:47,354 And it was a like, are these people serious? 565 00:25:47,475 --> 00:25:50,205 And it took a bit of getting past that. 566 00:25:50,205 --> 00:25:52,995 So we have, we're, we're dialing it down now, probably years after. 567 00:25:52,995 --> 00:25:53,715 We should have. 568 00:25:54,074 --> 00:25:57,435 But for what we do with the scale we operate at, that makes sense. 569 00:25:57,999 --> 00:25:59,080 For what you do. 570 00:25:59,769 --> 00:26:04,509 The fact that you don't have any of these offerings that are too commas in 571 00:26:04,509 --> 00:26:07,389 the annual price every year, it's okay. 572 00:26:07,389 --> 00:26:09,009 Well, we don't think this is professional. 573 00:26:09,189 --> 00:26:09,729 Terrific. 574 00:26:09,729 --> 00:26:10,600 Please keep walking. 575 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,409 Service Meow. 576 00:26:11,409 --> 00:26:13,689 Would love to wind up working with you. 577 00:26:13,929 --> 00:26:15,669 Uh, it's like ServiceNow for cats. 578 00:26:16,194 --> 00:26:16,554 Jeremy Price: Right. 579 00:26:16,584 --> 00:26:19,044 And, you know, I mean, I wouldn't mind some of those companies, 580 00:26:19,104 --> 00:26:20,514 you know, paying us that much. 581 00:26:20,544 --> 00:26:23,574 Um, but again, we don't even have the offering for it because it just, 582 00:26:24,024 --> 00:26:28,164 that's, that's, I I think we're too reasonable about things at times. 583 00:26:28,194 --> 00:26:29,874 But again, you know, slow, steady growth. 584 00:26:30,354 --> 00:26:32,754 Um, but no, that, that's absolutely a thing. 585 00:26:32,754 --> 00:26:36,774 I mean, there's a famous story of some, some bank, I don't remember, which bank, 586 00:26:37,044 --> 00:26:41,394 um, got asked, you know, well, why did you go with, you know, Microsoft Cloud when, 587 00:26:41,394 --> 00:26:43,164 you know, Amazon was clearly superior? 588 00:26:43,164 --> 00:26:45,594 And they said, oh, well, because, you know, Amazon sent. 589 00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:50,370 You know, people in hoodies and, and you know, Azure sent people in 590 00:26:50,370 --> 00:26:52,080 suits or something like that, right? 591 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,280 It's like, for better or for worse, the appearance matters. 592 00:26:56,340 --> 00:26:59,850 And, and just like, like not actually relevant appearance, but to some 593 00:26:59,850 --> 00:27:01,590 people, boy, boy, that's relevant. 594 00:27:03,199 --> 00:27:05,509 Corey : There's more psychology in the buying process than I ever would've 595 00:27:05,509 --> 00:27:09,169 believe possible until, so when I started doing this myself, like I, I 596 00:27:09,169 --> 00:27:12,709 did have the advantage on some folk in that before I entered tech properly, I 597 00:27:12,709 --> 00:27:16,189 did telesales and then I did marketing and then actual enterprise sales. 598 00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:20,810 And I was never great at the process and the follow up with a lot of these things. 599 00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:23,239 And I hated cold calling with a passion, which isn't really a 600 00:27:23,239 --> 00:27:25,429 thing anymore Anyway, and then. 601 00:27:25,975 --> 00:27:29,965 But, but I always remembered that aspect and how hard that freaking job is. 602 00:27:30,145 --> 00:27:32,754 I know that talking smack about salespeople is basically the 603 00:27:32,754 --> 00:27:36,504 engineering national pastime, but I have no patience or tolerance for it. 604 00:27:36,504 --> 00:27:38,094 It's like, excuse me, not for nothing. 605 00:27:38,094 --> 00:27:40,794 But, you know, those inflated salaries you get for basically 606 00:27:40,794 --> 00:27:44,094 slapping GitHub around, uh, where do you believe that money comes from? 607 00:27:44,094 --> 00:27:45,385 Just, just, just humor me here. 608 00:27:45,385 --> 00:27:47,050 Where, where exactly does that come from? 609 00:27:47,834 --> 00:27:48,914 Venture capitalists. 610 00:27:49,094 --> 00:27:49,634 Oh, right. 611 00:27:49,634 --> 00:27:50,594 Wrong company style. 612 00:27:51,464 --> 00:27:54,464 Jeremy Price: But, but to your point, and not only does the money come from there, 613 00:27:54,614 --> 00:27:59,264 but to your point, right, like you hated cold calling you, you know, like sales is 614 00:27:59,264 --> 00:28:01,904 a hard fucking job that I do not wanna do. 615 00:28:02,294 --> 00:28:04,574 Um, but for the people who do. 616 00:28:05,165 --> 00:28:09,605 Corey : It turns out I do a lot of it now, but I, my, I don't do outbound at all. 617 00:28:09,605 --> 00:28:11,915 I wind up doing my shit. 618 00:28:11,915 --> 00:28:15,065 Posting performance like this, people hear about, oh, AWS bills. 619 00:28:15,065 --> 00:28:18,485 That sounds like an expensive problem that suddenly we have, maybe he can help us. 620 00:28:18,605 --> 00:28:22,685 And the conversations I have when I, uh, do our, the sales engineering role for 621 00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:26,555 actual salespeople is I, I just spend the entire time asking questions because 622 00:28:26,555 --> 00:28:28,625 I wanna learn how they see these things. 623 00:28:28,805 --> 00:28:30,155 There's a, there's a curiosity. 624 00:28:30,215 --> 00:28:31,595 That drives all of it. 625 00:28:31,745 --> 00:28:33,665 I'm not pitching what we do. 626 00:28:33,935 --> 00:28:37,145 My job on that is to understand what their circumstance is. 627 00:28:37,145 --> 00:28:39,935 Ask if they've tried a few things, and suddenly when you demonstrate, you know 628 00:28:39,935 --> 00:28:44,284 what the hell you're talking about, that that is sales people tend to assume that 629 00:28:44,284 --> 00:28:48,995 sales or marketing is they, they, they paint with a broad brush that's informed 630 00:28:49,235 --> 00:28:51,814 by the worst examples you can ever find. 631 00:28:51,814 --> 00:28:56,074 Like, I remember that guy who sold me my used car, so I hate salespeople. 632 00:28:56,465 --> 00:28:59,465 Yeah, maybe that's not the same thing there, professor. 633 00:29:00,099 --> 00:29:00,519 Jeremy Price: No. 634 00:29:01,029 --> 00:29:01,359 No. 635 00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:05,109 And I, you know, I, I also think that depends on the company, right? 636 00:29:05,169 --> 00:29:10,779 Some, some companies go after that sort of marketing tactic, sales tactic, et cetera. 637 00:29:10,779 --> 00:29:12,159 And, and, but an awful lot don't. 638 00:29:12,159 --> 00:29:16,299 And an awful lot are just, you know, hardworking people trying to 639 00:29:16,299 --> 00:29:18,849 do a job and trying to make money for the company that they're in. 640 00:29:18,849 --> 00:29:19,809 And that's completely valid. 641 00:29:19,809 --> 00:29:22,959 Like, that's how our system works, are all facets of our system. 642 00:29:22,959 --> 00:29:23,289 Great. 643 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:24,369 No, but like. 644 00:29:25,014 --> 00:29:26,004 I don't think that's uncommon. 645 00:29:26,155 --> 00:29:27,715 Corey : But you do like food from time to time. 646 00:29:28,165 --> 00:29:31,314 I do like to eat, uh, my dogs very much like treats. 647 00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:33,715 I, I really wanna thank you for taking the time to speak with me. 648 00:29:33,804 --> 00:29:36,625 If people wanna learn more, where's the best place for them to find you? 649 00:29:37,405 --> 00:29:38,635 Jeremy Price: Uh, to find me? 650 00:29:39,024 --> 00:29:42,475 Uh, well, my LinkedIn isn't great, um, but it's a good start. 651 00:29:42,625 --> 00:29:47,034 Um, you can also find me at Jerm ops, J-E-R-M-O-P-S, on 652 00:29:47,034 --> 00:29:48,175 most of the social places. 653 00:29:48,175 --> 00:29:49,975 Some of them I frequent more than others these days. 654 00:29:50,334 --> 00:29:53,125 If you're, if you are passionate about asset management, you wanna 655 00:29:53,125 --> 00:29:55,374 learn more, come to snipeitapp.com. 656 00:29:55,554 --> 00:29:56,695 I'm there and I'm gonna be there. 657 00:29:56,695 --> 00:30:00,205 'cause, uh, it's a, it's a great place and I'm proud of what we do and how we do it. 658 00:30:00,849 --> 00:30:03,249 Corey : And we'll of course put links to that in the show notes. 659 00:30:03,370 --> 00:30:05,379 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. 660 00:30:05,409 --> 00:30:06,039 I appreciate it. 661 00:30:06,099 --> 00:30:06,639 Jeremy Price: Thanks for having me. 662 00:30:06,639 --> 00:30:06,879 Cory. 663 00:30:07,479 --> 00:30:07,809 Be well. 664 00:30:08,139 --> 00:30:12,469 Corey : Jeremy Price, VP of Technology at Grokability. 665 00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:16,149 I'm cloud economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming In the Cloud. 666 00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:19,209 If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five star review on 667 00:30:19,209 --> 00:30:20,739 your podcast platform of choice. 668 00:30:20,769 --> 00:30:23,949 Whereas if you've hated this podcast, please, we have a five star review on 669 00:30:23,949 --> 00:30:27,549 your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that will then get 670 00:30:27,549 --> 00:30:29,889 overwritten when we reset the database.