WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:07.065 --> 00:00:09.825 Candace Dellacona: Welcome to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide. 00:00:09.855 --> 00:00:16.255 I am your host, Candace Dellacona, and I am thrilled to announce our guest for this 00:00:16.295 --> 00:00:20.015 episode, Karen Covey, a divorce coach. 00:00:20.365 --> 00:00:25.325 I know so many of our listeners are anxious to hear all about you, Karen, 00:00:25.525 --> 00:00:27.815 who you are, what a divorce coach is. 00:00:28.115 --> 00:00:31.295 So many of our listeners and family members have gone through this process. 00:00:31.295 --> 00:00:34.685 So, why don't we start at the top and tell us who you are. 00:00:35.495 --> 00:00:38.765 Karen Covy: I am a divorce coach and a recovering lawyer, right? 00:00:38.815 --> 00:00:41.455 I'm all things divorce except divorced myself. 00:00:41.455 --> 00:00:43.985 I'm a lawyer, mediator, arbitrator, collaborative 00:00:43.985 --> 00:00:46.015 professional and a divorce coach. 00:00:46.335 --> 00:00:50.515 And I sort of morphed my practice from being just a lawyer to 00:00:50.515 --> 00:00:54.545 being a coach, oh, I don't know, half a dozen years or so ago. 00:00:54.825 --> 00:00:58.595 Candace Dellacona: And how did you or why did you make this transition? 00:00:58.595 --> 00:01:03.228 What precipitated the change from a traditional matrimonial or divorce 00:01:03.228 --> 00:01:06.488 attorney to where you are today, which is kind of a hybrid role? 00:01:07.068 --> 00:01:08.408 Karen Covy: It's a very hybrid role. 00:01:08.448 --> 00:01:10.298 And it was interesting. 00:01:10.728 --> 00:01:15.508 When I practiced law in my own firm, I never wanted to be an empire, I 00:01:15.508 --> 00:01:17.038 just wanted to have my own firm. 00:01:17.038 --> 00:01:20.548 So it was me and a secretary one day in the office. 00:01:20.548 --> 00:01:24.008 It was hot, so I had my office door open, it was only the two of us in 00:01:24.008 --> 00:01:27.658 there, and so she heard the conversation with the client that I was having. 00:01:27.908 --> 00:01:32.458 The client leaves, now this particular secretary had worked for all of 00:01:32.458 --> 00:01:36.408 the big firms in town, right, for all the big matrimonial law firms. 00:01:36.878 --> 00:01:40.498 And the client leaves and she said, "You do know that 00:01:40.498 --> 00:01:42.038 nobody else does that, right?" 00:01:42.888 --> 00:01:44.668 And I said, "What do you mean? 00:01:44.688 --> 00:01:45.238 Does what? 00:01:45.268 --> 00:01:47.958 I just, I told them their options, I explained how things 00:01:47.958 --> 00:01:49.338 work, I gave them choices." 00:01:49.338 --> 00:01:50.588 And she said, "That. 00:01:50.998 --> 00:01:51.828 The other lawyers," 00:01:51.858 --> 00:01:54.698 and I said, "well, if they don't explain everything to them, what do they do?" 00:01:54.698 --> 00:01:57.718 And she said, "they hand them a contract and say, here, sign here. 00:01:57.978 --> 00:01:59.118 I'll take care of everything. 00:01:59.118 --> 00:01:59.908 Don't worry about it." 00:02:00.408 --> 00:02:00.678 Candace Dellacona: Right. 00:02:00.688 --> 00:02:03.968 Karen Covy: And I know that that's not the way divorce works. 00:02:04.653 --> 00:02:10.113 And I saw so many people in court making decisions that weren't going to be in 00:02:10.113 --> 00:02:16.423 their long term best interest simply because they didn't know they were going 00:02:16.423 --> 00:02:18.203 to have to make that decision that day. 00:02:18.373 --> 00:02:20.793 They didn't understand what was coming. 00:02:20.793 --> 00:02:22.913 They didn't understand how the system worked. 00:02:23.123 --> 00:02:26.273 They didn't know what their choices were going to be, so they weren't 00:02:26.273 --> 00:02:28.233 prepared, and they made bad choices. 00:02:28.263 --> 00:02:30.603 And I said, that, to me, makes no sense. 00:02:31.113 --> 00:02:35.353 And so, I kept looking for that better way to do divorce. 00:02:35.863 --> 00:02:39.693 And I realized that as one person, I am not going to be able to change 00:02:39.693 --> 00:02:43.853 the whole system all across the United States, but I can change it 00:02:43.853 --> 00:02:45.163 for the clients that I work with. 00:02:45.673 --> 00:02:47.708 And so, that's what I started to do. 00:02:48.038 --> 00:02:48.748 Candace Dellacona: I love that. 00:02:48.778 --> 00:02:53.968 And in sort of taking on a role as truly a counselor, right? 00:02:54.008 --> 00:02:59.588 I mean, we're called counselors at law, and you'd think that would be innate, 00:02:59.678 --> 00:03:05.638 that an attorney particularly advising people on something that is incredibly 00:03:05.638 --> 00:03:10.598 personal and painful in most circumstances and the stakes are quite high relating to 00:03:10.598 --> 00:03:16.928 finances and child custody and, certainly assets like your home that you'd hope 00:03:16.928 --> 00:03:21.038 that someone would explain the process and the ramifications and what's coming next. 00:03:21.048 --> 00:03:26.368 So if you could , in the best way that you can impart this information to our 00:03:26.368 --> 00:03:30.178 listeners, what does a divorce coach do? 00:03:30.208 --> 00:03:34.548 So walk me through the process of what a divorce coach is and how one 00:03:34.548 --> 00:03:40.088 would engage a divorce coach and the order in which they get counselor, 00:03:40.438 --> 00:03:44.828 lawyer, divorce coach, mediator, give us sort of a summary of that process. 00:03:45.693 --> 00:03:49.613 Karen Covy: Well, I can't speak to all divorce coaches because, as in any other 00:03:49.613 --> 00:03:54.273 profession, not all divorce coaches are the same or do exactly the same things. 00:03:54.463 --> 00:03:54.793 Candace Dellacona: Sure. 00:03:54.833 --> 00:03:58.143 Karen Covy: I start with people, the minute they start to wonder, 00:03:58.773 --> 00:04:00.523 should I stay or should I go? 00:04:00.713 --> 00:04:01.273 Candace Dellacona: Ah. 00:04:01.888 --> 00:04:06.888 Karen Covy: And that's a place where people get stuck for a very long time. 00:04:07.328 --> 00:04:10.378 Because notwithstanding that, there are a lot of people in the world 00:04:10.388 --> 00:04:13.968 that think divorce is too easy, I've been doing this for a very long time. 00:04:14.078 --> 00:04:16.238 There is nothing easy about divorce. 00:04:16.238 --> 00:04:20.818 And I have never had a client who was in a perfect, happy marriage and woke up one 00:04:20.828 --> 00:04:23.033 day and said, I think I'll get a divorce. 00:04:23.093 --> 00:04:25.113 I mean, it doesn't happen that way, right? 00:04:25.303 --> 00:04:27.323 People go, yes, no, yes, no. 00:04:27.323 --> 00:04:28.273 They're worried about their kids. 00:04:28.273 --> 00:04:29.283 They're worried about their money. 00:04:29.283 --> 00:04:30.483 They're worried about their future. 00:04:30.733 --> 00:04:32.403 They're worried, about the promise. 00:04:32.423 --> 00:04:36.373 They think about the vow that they made all those years ago and 00:04:36.373 --> 00:04:37.633 they take it really seriously. 00:04:37.843 --> 00:04:42.613 So they get stuck in that decision making stage sometimes for 00:04:42.613 --> 00:04:44.663 years, sometimes for decades. 00:04:45.053 --> 00:04:46.093 Candace Dellacona: Sometimes forever. 00:04:46.143 --> 00:04:46.403 Right? 00:04:46.403 --> 00:04:46.753 Karen Covy: Yeah. 00:04:46.843 --> 00:04:48.043 And sometimes they never leave. 00:04:48.683 --> 00:04:48.983 Candace Dellacona: Yeah. 00:04:49.273 --> 00:04:49.863 I love that. 00:04:49.863 --> 00:04:56.043 I never actually thought about a divorce coach coming into the equation before 00:04:56.043 --> 00:04:57.923 you get to the brass tacks of the law. 00:04:58.453 --> 00:04:58.663 Karen Covy: Yeah. 00:04:59.133 --> 00:05:04.523 Because a lot of what I do has nothing to do with the law. 00:05:04.853 --> 00:05:09.703 And the truth is that most divorce lawyers don't want me to say is that a lot of 00:05:09.703 --> 00:05:11.753 divorce has nothing to do with the law. 00:05:12.668 --> 00:05:14.098 Candace Dellacona: So what do you mean by that, Karen? 00:05:14.098 --> 00:05:17.788 So when you talk about it, what are the issues that you would coach someone 00:05:17.788 --> 00:05:21.998 through after they do come to you and the should I stay or should I go, 00:05:21.998 --> 00:05:23.478 and the decision is I'm going to go? 00:05:23.488 --> 00:05:26.248 What's the next step for you as the coach? 00:05:26.328 --> 00:05:28.048 What your personal approach is? 00:05:28.523 --> 00:05:32.163 Karen Covy: My personal approach to the next step is, what do you want? 00:05:32.773 --> 00:05:36.593 Where do you want to be at the end of this? 00:05:36.783 --> 00:05:41.283 Because as Stephen Covey, who is unfortunately no relation to me as he 00:05:41.283 --> 00:05:43.953 would say, you start with the end in mind. 00:05:44.193 --> 00:05:49.033 Because if you understand what your goal is, You have a much better chance 00:05:49.033 --> 00:05:52.813 of actually achieving it and being there at the end of your divorce. 00:05:53.003 --> 00:05:56.283 Because the one thing I know for sure, in every state in the union, 00:05:56.293 --> 00:05:58.073 no fault divorce is a thing. 00:05:58.233 --> 00:05:58.563 Right? 00:05:58.573 --> 00:05:58.823 Candace Dellacona: Uh huh. 00:05:58.903 --> 00:05:59.013 Yep. 00:05:59.043 --> 00:06:03.133 Karen Covy: So if somebody wants a divorce, fundamentally at the end of 00:06:03.133 --> 00:06:04.553 the day, you're going to be divorced. 00:06:04.563 --> 00:06:06.623 So that's not the right question to ask. 00:06:06.673 --> 00:06:09.323 It's where do I want to be? 00:06:09.748 --> 00:06:12.868 At that point in my life, where do I want to be when I'm divorced? 00:06:13.008 --> 00:06:14.168 How much money do I have? 00:06:14.298 --> 00:06:16.438 What kind of relationship do I have with my kids? 00:06:16.608 --> 00:06:17.628 Where am I living? 00:06:17.718 --> 00:06:18.928 What is my lifestyle? 00:06:18.938 --> 00:06:20.318 What is my identity? 00:06:20.428 --> 00:06:22.178 What do I care about? 00:06:22.398 --> 00:06:27.838 So at the very beginning, what I as a coach help you do is figure that 00:06:27.838 --> 00:06:32.803 out, figure out what matters to you so that once you're divorced, You 00:06:32.803 --> 00:06:36.443 end up with the things you care about and not the Tupperware or your Aunt 00:06:36.443 --> 00:06:40.093 Jane's crystal that you really, stays in a box and you never look at again. 00:06:40.543 --> 00:06:41.743 Candace Dellacona: That totally makes sense. 00:06:41.813 --> 00:06:44.833 Thinking about it from that perspective and knowing what your 00:06:44.843 --> 00:06:49.723 end game is helps you advocate for yourself, even just with your lawyer. 00:06:50.023 --> 00:06:53.773 And it sounds to me as though you're getting to the heart of 00:06:53.773 --> 00:06:57.723 the matter with the client so that they realize and are able to 00:06:57.723 --> 00:06:59.483 articulate what's important to them. 00:07:00.078 --> 00:07:00.768 Karen Covy: Exactly. 00:07:01.238 --> 00:07:07.338 And in a perfect world, not all lawyers are open to working with coaches as part 00:07:07.338 --> 00:07:12.078 of the team, but just like it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a 00:07:12.078 --> 00:07:15.568 team to get a divorce, at least if you want to do it in the most effective way. 00:07:15.958 --> 00:07:19.388 And if I'm working together with a lawyer. 00:07:19.738 --> 00:07:24.478 For the benefit of a client, I can help translate, because I speak 00:07:24.478 --> 00:07:26.228 lawyer and I speak human, right? 00:07:26.228 --> 00:07:28.778 And so many times lawyers have the curse of knowledge. 00:07:29.008 --> 00:07:33.478 They say things in a way that is perfectly understandable to another 00:07:33.478 --> 00:07:37.903 lawyer, but the client and, People don't want to feel stupid, right? 00:07:38.053 --> 00:07:42.893 So they're going to smile and nod to the lawyer and pretend like they understand. 00:07:42.893 --> 00:07:44.523 They don't have a clue what the lawyer just said. 00:07:44.713 --> 00:07:47.793 Or they're so emotional and they're so distraught that 00:07:47.793 --> 00:07:49.223 it's not really sinking in. 00:07:49.383 --> 00:07:53.953 So I can come in on the back end and say to the client , don't 00:07:53.953 --> 00:07:56.913 you remember your lawyer said this, or this is what this means. 00:07:57.083 --> 00:07:58.573 Here's what your choices are. 00:07:58.573 --> 00:08:02.783 And then I can go to the lawyer and also be the intermediary too, so that 00:08:03.148 --> 00:08:08.008 everybody is in the same boat with oars rowing in the same direction, 00:08:08.218 --> 00:08:10.278 rather than against each other. 00:08:10.328 --> 00:08:13.048 It makes things so much more effective. 00:08:13.378 --> 00:08:18.878 I make the lawyer easier to work with for the client, and the client easier to work 00:08:18.908 --> 00:08:21.403 with for the lawyer, so it's a win-win. 00:08:21.973 --> 00:08:23.713 Candace Dellacona: While you were speaking, I was thinking 00:08:23.723 --> 00:08:26.113 about the process of a divorce. 00:08:26.113 --> 00:08:30.713 And what normally happens, a spouse will go and sit with an attorney. 00:08:30.713 --> 00:08:34.783 It's a very solitary event for a lot of reasons, right? 00:08:34.853 --> 00:08:38.463 The client is talking about, a really tender thing, which is the end of 00:08:38.533 --> 00:08:42.033 a marriage, and many people see it as a failure, maybe, or they feel 00:08:42.033 --> 00:08:43.983 sad about it, embarrassed about it. 00:08:44.363 --> 00:08:47.123 There are topics, maybe, that they didn't even tell their best 00:08:47.123 --> 00:08:51.323 friend or their sister about, and those topics have to be shared. 00:08:51.683 --> 00:08:55.083 With the divorce attorney in order for the divorce attorney to 00:08:55.973 --> 00:08:57.933 effectively represent you, let's say. 00:08:57.953 --> 00:09:04.333 So having someone like you there who knows the law and the person is able to share 00:09:04.333 --> 00:09:09.093 those details with, to have the second set of ears seems like what an amazing 00:09:09.533 --> 00:09:15.598 service and so shocking that this isn't a thing and hasn't been a thing for very 00:09:15.598 --> 00:09:20.658 long, and that, it took you to articulate this role by seeing a need for it. 00:09:21.278 --> 00:09:21.588 Karen Covy: Yeah. 00:09:21.658 --> 00:09:26.408 What lawyers used to be back in the day, the family lawyer, where they 00:09:26.408 --> 00:09:29.548 would sit and they got to know people and they had relationships and they 00:09:29.548 --> 00:09:32.388 were counselors of a sort, right? 00:09:32.658 --> 00:09:37.008 Well today, lawyers are so busy and there's so many other pressures on them 00:09:37.298 --> 00:09:41.638 that they often forget the counseling part or there's no room for that in 00:09:41.638 --> 00:09:44.368 their practice, which is really sad too. 00:09:44.568 --> 00:09:50.818 And so I help bridge that gap and help the lawyer be more effective. 00:09:50.988 --> 00:09:56.298 And also, feel better about what they're doing because sometimes no one 00:09:56.298 --> 00:09:58.168 wants to toot their own horn, right? 00:09:58.168 --> 00:10:01.068 You don't want to look like you're the bragger or whatever. 00:10:01.368 --> 00:10:04.058 But lawyers, I've been in cases, involved in cases where 00:10:04.058 --> 00:10:06.338 the lawyer did amazing things. 00:10:06.748 --> 00:10:11.068 And the client doesn't understand the magnitude of what just happened. 00:10:11.318 --> 00:10:12.988 And they think that's normal, right? 00:10:12.988 --> 00:10:14.658 Well, of course, everybody does that. 00:10:14.848 --> 00:10:18.168 And when I'm in the background, I can look at them and say, no, no, no, no, no. 00:10:18.638 --> 00:10:22.768 This, your lawyer, you should be like kissing the ground that they walk on 00:10:22.768 --> 00:10:27.438 right now, because they just did a really difficult thing and they didn't 00:10:27.438 --> 00:10:28.718 want to tell you how hard it was. 00:10:29.398 --> 00:10:31.888 But it was really hard, and they did a great job. 00:10:32.098 --> 00:10:32.538 Candace Dellacona: Yeah. 00:10:32.568 --> 00:10:36.928 I think, that will lead to the satisfaction of the client, of the person 00:10:36.928 --> 00:10:42.218 going through that process, really feeling like, the person fought for them, and with 00:10:42.228 --> 00:10:46.888 all of the facts and circumstances that the best possible outcome was achieved. 00:10:47.198 --> 00:10:52.108 And largely in a situation where it feels pretty terrible start to finish, even if 00:10:52.108 --> 00:10:54.098 you're the one who initiated the divorce. 00:10:54.598 --> 00:10:54.788 Karen Covy: Yeah. 00:10:54.968 --> 00:10:58.143 It's, look, it's a tough process no matter who you are 00:10:58.163 --> 00:10:59.983 or how you're going through it. 00:11:00.263 --> 00:11:04.653 So, anything that you can do to make it a little bit more efficient, a 00:11:04.653 --> 00:11:09.243 little bit less painful is always gonna be a really good thing. 00:11:09.253 --> 00:11:13.473 And the one thing, even though I am a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer in all 50 states. 00:11:13.493 --> 00:11:13.773 Candace Dellacona: Right. 00:11:13.783 --> 00:11:17.293 Karen Covy: And I'm not going to, when I'm, engaged in the role of a coach. 00:11:17.333 --> 00:11:21.993 I'm not going to give my clients legal advice because that's not my job. 00:11:22.273 --> 00:11:26.143 My job is to facilitate the relationship with the lawyer 00:11:26.143 --> 00:11:27.663 and the client not undermine it. 00:11:27.813 --> 00:11:30.443 So I'm not gonna armchair quarterback anybody. 00:11:31.263 --> 00:11:35.733 But I will help the client understand what's going on and I will help the lawyer 00:11:35.733 --> 00:11:40.513 say hey What you just did might have been good, but the client doesn't want that. 00:11:40.513 --> 00:11:41.653 They want something else. 00:11:41.673 --> 00:11:45.993 They want this, or they don't feel heard, or whatever that is. 00:11:46.203 --> 00:11:51.143 Now, if the lawyer isn't open to that kind of relationship, having a coach 00:11:51.163 --> 00:11:54.993 as part of the team, and some lawyers, I have to tell you, are not, then I 00:11:54.993 --> 00:11:59.523 work behind the scenes and tell the client, ask your lawyer this, ask your 00:11:59.523 --> 00:12:01.033 lawyer that, ask your lawyer this. 00:12:01.353 --> 00:12:04.093 But it's so much more effective if we can all work together. 00:12:04.798 --> 00:12:08.018 Candace Dellacona: As someone who is also a practicing attorney, albeit not in, 00:12:08.048 --> 00:12:13.518 in the family law space or matrimonial space I will tell you that, what I hear 00:12:13.518 --> 00:12:17.888 most from my friends, from our listeners, from my peers who are going through it, 00:12:17.898 --> 00:12:22.478 we're all in the sandwich generation where marriages continue and marriages end. 00:12:22.978 --> 00:12:24.678 One of the common themes. 00:12:25.433 --> 00:12:28.143 That I hear is the expense. 00:12:28.193 --> 00:12:30.493 What a divorce costs. 00:12:31.073 --> 00:12:35.693 And, I think for our listeners, one of the things that should be considered 00:12:35.693 --> 00:12:42.453 is hiring someone like you, in many circumstances, is probably a better 00:12:42.453 --> 00:12:48.523 economic decision because your wishes can be articulated effectively and 00:12:48.523 --> 00:12:50.743 immediately to your own lawyer. 00:12:50.753 --> 00:12:55.633 Can you talk about what the cost is for someone thinking of hiring you? 00:12:55.883 --> 00:13:00.053 Not exactly what your rate is necessarily, but maybe we'll talk 00:13:00.063 --> 00:13:04.953 about, what the added cost may be and why it would be beneficial to someone 00:13:05.313 --> 00:13:07.273 to consider hiring someone like you. 00:13:08.083 --> 00:13:10.953 Karen Covy: If I said, Oh, there's no cost or you're always going to 00:13:10.953 --> 00:13:12.943 save money, that wouldn't be true. 00:13:13.113 --> 00:13:13.393 Candace Dellacona: Yeah. 00:13:13.403 --> 00:13:17.803 Karen Covy: But I can say, cause I can't quantify any specific amount of money. 00:13:17.963 --> 00:13:22.953 But most of my clients do save money and a lot of money because what 00:13:22.963 --> 00:13:28.913 happens is they understand how to use their lawyer more effectively. 00:13:29.163 --> 00:13:34.003 Everybody knows that conceptually, but when you're an emotional wreck and your 00:13:34.003 --> 00:13:39.203 spouse just did something stupid and you want to call your lawyer and go on and 00:13:39.203 --> 00:13:44.493 on and on about it, but it's not a legal problem, you're going to pay hundreds of 00:13:44.493 --> 00:13:46.993 dollars an hour for that privilege, right? 00:13:47.013 --> 00:13:48.293 And it's not going to be effective. 00:13:48.573 --> 00:13:50.743 There's nothing your lawyer can often do about it. 00:13:50.753 --> 00:13:52.423 So I help people. 00:13:52.883 --> 00:13:57.313 Use their lawyer for what lawyers are good at and be organized. 00:13:57.563 --> 00:14:03.673 If you hand your lawyer a stack of papers that are all disorganized and you're not 00:14:03.673 --> 00:14:07.203 sure if they're really what the lawyer needs or what they're not, but you don't 00:14:07.203 --> 00:14:10.963 want to leave anything out, that lawyer, you're going to pay them to go through 00:14:11.003 --> 00:14:14.943 every single piece of paper, organize it, analyze it, do all the things. 00:14:15.043 --> 00:14:21.178 But if you've done that legwork on your end, Then what you pay the lawyer is 00:14:21.228 --> 00:14:28.068 considerably less, and the lawyer then has more time to do the actual legal work. 00:14:28.468 --> 00:14:30.458 Candace Dellacona: And that's exactly where I was going, Karen. 00:14:30.458 --> 00:14:35.348 That, often I think clients, particularly going through a painful divorce and are 00:14:35.348 --> 00:14:40.143 dealing with an estranged spouse who may be acting out in a certain way, the 00:14:40.493 --> 00:14:44.683 urge is to call the lawyer, the person who's fighting for you, to inform them 00:14:44.683 --> 00:14:48.583 and make sure that they have all the information, but you are able to parse 00:14:48.593 --> 00:14:52.663 through whether or not that information is material and it makes any difference 00:14:52.693 --> 00:14:57.883 to the standing that your client has and positively impacts their case or not. 00:14:58.398 --> 00:14:59.078 Karen Covy: Exactly. 00:14:59.088 --> 00:15:06.878 And so I help my clients get organized and regulate their emotions and regulate 00:15:06.878 --> 00:15:12.068 their responses so that they use their lawyer more effectively, they save a 00:15:12.068 --> 00:15:18.188 lot of money in legal fees as a result of that, and everything is again, 00:15:18.418 --> 00:15:20.608 more effective and more efficient. 00:15:20.618 --> 00:15:25.198 You're not leaking resources from every direction because you're 00:15:25.198 --> 00:15:29.513 using the resources that you have inefficiently or ineffectively. 00:15:29.733 --> 00:15:35.103 So for anyone who is thinking of, a divorce and wants to save money, 00:15:35.423 --> 00:15:40.883 even though a divorce coach is an investment in the long run, it saves 00:15:40.883 --> 00:15:43.373 people money, it saves people time. 00:15:43.373 --> 00:15:46.873 And it also saves people because today, even people who have a 00:15:46.873 --> 00:15:50.913 lot of resources are considering using lawyers in a different way. 00:15:51.153 --> 00:15:53.173 They're using them on like an. 00:15:53.648 --> 00:15:55.458 A la carte basis, shall we say. 00:15:55.628 --> 00:15:59.538 They use it as unbundled service is what we call it in the legal profession. 00:15:59.758 --> 00:16:02.438 But they say, look, I don't want full on representation. 00:16:02.688 --> 00:16:07.648 Interestingly, it's usually not, it's about money, but it's also 00:16:07.648 --> 00:16:10.308 about, they don't want the lawyer to stir the pot and make a fight. 00:16:10.528 --> 00:16:12.868 And they're afraid that's what the lawyer is going to do. 00:16:13.048 --> 00:16:14.968 So they'll say, look, I want your advice. 00:16:14.968 --> 00:16:16.008 I want your counsel. 00:16:16.658 --> 00:16:20.533 I want you to write my documents, but I want to negotiate this with 00:16:20.533 --> 00:16:25.233 my spouse myself, or I want to go to mediation with my spouse myself. 00:16:25.523 --> 00:16:26.323 That's great. 00:16:26.423 --> 00:16:30.523 But if you don't walk into those conversations, whether it's a kitchen 00:16:30.523 --> 00:16:34.403 table negotiation, whether it's an informal mediation, whether it's an 00:16:34.413 --> 00:16:38.953 arbitration, if you don't walk in prepared and understanding what you're 00:16:38.953 --> 00:16:43.003 going to face and what you want to get out of there and having a strategy 00:16:43.173 --> 00:16:48.928 for achieving your goal, you're not as likely to be successful in doing that. 00:16:48.958 --> 00:16:52.798 And then you've just wasted more time and money and resources. 00:16:53.018 --> 00:16:54.518 So I, as a coach. 00:16:54.893 --> 00:16:59.633 A big part of what I do is help people prepare for whatever course 00:16:59.633 --> 00:17:01.753 of action they've decided to take. 00:17:02.183 --> 00:17:04.133 Candace Dellacona: I mean, I think, you could make the argument and, 00:17:04.143 --> 00:17:07.813 you're being quite humble, Karen, in talking about how you can't be sure 00:17:08.143 --> 00:17:09.513 that you're saving people money. 00:17:09.513 --> 00:17:13.833 But as someone who's been in practice for 22 years, litigators 00:17:13.833 --> 00:17:14.793 are taught to litigate. 00:17:15.493 --> 00:17:19.703 And so, the point that you made before of, someone who is a little more 00:17:19.703 --> 00:17:24.573 sophisticated and hires a lawyer a la carte to guide behind the scenes 00:17:24.873 --> 00:17:30.063 because they're concerned that having a lawyer will cause a situation that's 00:17:30.073 --> 00:17:34.353 not adversarial to become one, I think that's really important to consider 00:17:34.353 --> 00:17:40.738 that there are circumstances where having a lawyer to quote unquote 00:17:40.738 --> 00:17:42.498 litigate a divorce is unnecessary. 00:17:42.498 --> 00:17:46.428 So, you, you said at the top of the episode that the other role that 00:17:46.428 --> 00:17:50.788 you play in addition to divorce coach, perhaps not in the same case 00:17:51.068 --> 00:17:53.598 is to play the role as a mediator. 00:17:53.618 --> 00:17:58.148 Can you explain to our listeners what a mediator is and how that 00:17:58.158 --> 00:18:03.188 differs from hiring a lawyer as a matrimonial attorney to represent 00:18:03.188 --> 00:18:08.178 you, and also how it distinguishes from your role as a divorce coach? 00:18:08.893 --> 00:18:09.233 Karen Covy: Right. 00:18:09.233 --> 00:18:12.403 So the first thing people have to know is there are these different 00:18:12.403 --> 00:18:17.863 roles and that no one person can or should cross boundaries, right? 00:18:17.863 --> 00:18:21.473 You don't want your lawyer being the coach and the mediator. 00:18:21.473 --> 00:18:26.063 That doesn't work because a mediator is a neutral third party whose 00:18:26.123 --> 00:18:30.133 purpose is to facilitate an agreement between you and your spouse. 00:18:30.503 --> 00:18:36.093 So a mediator, even though he or she may be a lawyer, is not 00:18:36.093 --> 00:18:37.633 supposed to give you legal advice. 00:18:37.633 --> 00:18:41.603 They can say, the law in your state says blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:18:41.723 --> 00:18:45.473 What they can't do is say, and this is how it applies to you. 00:18:45.733 --> 00:18:48.803 And if we do that, then you've got this argument and this strategy. 00:18:48.843 --> 00:18:50.173 That's a mediator can't do that. 00:18:50.173 --> 00:18:52.763 They can tell you the law, but they can't give you legal advice. 00:18:53.143 --> 00:18:59.263 And so the mediator is, their role is very different from that of a coach because 00:18:59.283 --> 00:19:04.833 typically when I'm coaching in the context of a divorce, I'm coaching one side. 00:19:05.223 --> 00:19:06.343 Not both people. 00:19:06.513 --> 00:19:09.713 A mediator is going to mediate with a couple. 00:19:10.043 --> 00:19:14.753 And the point is to help them brainstorm ideas, to help them speak 00:19:14.753 --> 00:19:18.363 to each other in a way that they each feel like they're being heard. 00:19:18.903 --> 00:19:21.753 A mediator is going to help you make agreements. 00:19:21.803 --> 00:19:26.703 Sometimes very creative agreements out of the box agreements, agreements 00:19:26.703 --> 00:19:28.613 you would never get in court. 00:19:29.023 --> 00:19:30.953 So that it works for you. 00:19:30.963 --> 00:19:34.443 You come to an arrangement in a settlement that works for you, that 00:19:34.453 --> 00:19:38.383 works for your kids, that works for your family, that works for everybody. 00:19:38.393 --> 00:19:40.793 And then once you've got that agreement. 00:19:41.383 --> 00:19:44.683 You take it to your lawyer and you say, here, write it up. 00:19:45.613 --> 00:19:50.823 But what most people don't understand is that there's still a role for the lawyer. 00:19:50.843 --> 00:19:55.963 If you don't understand what your rights and responsibilities are, and you walk 00:19:55.963 --> 00:20:00.983 into a mediation, not knowing that, you are going to make mistakes, you're 00:20:00.983 --> 00:20:05.913 going to do things that You didn't know you should or shouldn't do, right? 00:20:05.913 --> 00:20:09.493 You can give away the farm without realizing you had a farm to give away. 00:20:09.993 --> 00:20:13.293 And so then what happens is people, they think they can do it all 00:20:13.293 --> 00:20:17.233 themselves without the lawyer, without the coach, without anything. 00:20:17.253 --> 00:20:19.963 And they make agreements and they take it to the lawyer and say, write it up. 00:20:19.973 --> 00:20:21.593 And the lawyer says, are you out of your mind? 00:20:21.773 --> 00:20:22.873 Why did you do this? 00:20:23.343 --> 00:20:24.343 And they go, do what? 00:20:24.933 --> 00:20:26.613 And then the whole thing falls apart. 00:20:26.643 --> 00:20:31.613 Now they're in a worse position because now they're reneging on an agreement that 00:20:31.613 --> 00:20:37.983 they made and it makes what could have been an amicable divorce into a big fight. 00:20:38.313 --> 00:20:44.033 So having that team put together and having the right people in place and 00:20:44.183 --> 00:20:50.533 everybody, like I said, going in the same direction gives you as a client the best 00:20:50.533 --> 00:20:52.293 chance of achieving the outcome you want. 00:20:53.123 --> 00:20:57.363 Candace Dellacona: So let me ask you this, let's say someone didn't know about 00:20:57.513 --> 00:21:00.183 the concept of having a divorce coach. 00:21:00.543 --> 00:21:04.143 They've already entered into mediation and they're doing their best, or 00:21:04.143 --> 00:21:08.643 they've hired a lawyer and they've started the formal divorce proceedings. 00:21:08.953 --> 00:21:13.823 Is it too late to ever bring someone like you in Karen to help? 00:21:14.703 --> 00:21:17.103 Karen Covy: That's a great question, and the answer is no. 00:21:17.103 --> 00:21:18.003 It's never too late. 00:21:18.063 --> 00:21:19.553 Well, I shouldn't say that. 00:21:19.583 --> 00:21:20.663 If you're already divorced. 00:21:21.053 --> 00:21:22.693 It's probably too late. 00:21:22.713 --> 00:21:23.283 Candace Dellacona: Fair enough. 00:21:23.543 --> 00:21:27.923 Karen Covy: But, all the way up until then, you can use a coach to 00:21:27.973 --> 00:21:30.643 help you say, okay, we're stuck. 00:21:30.863 --> 00:21:34.433 Because you and I both know that in the court system, 00:21:34.603 --> 00:21:36.333 everything starts with a bang. 00:21:36.703 --> 00:21:40.483 And then you hit sort of this no man's land of discovery where the 00:21:40.483 --> 00:21:44.273 case just goes on and on, things are happening behind the scenes. 00:21:44.583 --> 00:21:48.763 And then, if the court system is backed up, which is pretty much 00:21:48.763 --> 00:21:52.763 every court system in the country at this point, nothing is going on 00:21:52.793 --> 00:21:57.223 and clients get frustrated and they say, can you help me get this done? 00:21:57.613 --> 00:22:00.763 Can you give me some ideas for how we can move this? 00:22:00.983 --> 00:22:06.543 Or I've also coached people on how to appear in trial. 00:22:06.583 --> 00:22:10.193 You know, like witness preparation for trial, which every lawyer is 00:22:10.193 --> 00:22:12.273 going to say, Oh no, no, no, no. 00:22:12.383 --> 00:22:13.123 I do that. 00:22:13.923 --> 00:22:19.903 But the problem is the lawyers don't have as much time and often what they don't 00:22:19.903 --> 00:22:21.913 understand is the client is super nervous. 00:22:22.023 --> 00:22:24.453 The client has never done this before, right? 00:22:24.633 --> 00:22:24.803 Candace Dellacona: Yeah. 00:22:24.803 --> 00:22:27.883 Karen Covy: The client wants to be uber prepared and the lawyer isn't 00:22:27.883 --> 00:22:32.438 going to spend 10 hours with them preparing them for how to be a witness 00:22:32.448 --> 00:22:37.828 in a case when the lawyer knows that the range of possibilities are pretty 00:22:37.828 --> 00:22:40.958 limited, it's going to go okay, they're going to be fine, but the 00:22:40.958 --> 00:22:42.988 client is scared out of their mind. 00:22:43.488 --> 00:22:47.298 I can help to prepare the client because there's an emotional 00:22:47.498 --> 00:22:49.210 component to testifying. 00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:55.451 If you can walk into that court knowing that you're prepared, you will feel 00:22:55.451 --> 00:23:01.598 more confident you're going to testify better than if you walk in and you 00:23:01.988 --> 00:23:05.168 completely fall apart and you're a mess because you're nervous and you don't 00:23:05.168 --> 00:23:08.378 know what to say and you start stuttering and stammering and crying and being 00:23:08.378 --> 00:23:12.358 upset and all the things you're just not going to be as effective, right? 00:23:12.738 --> 00:23:15.238 And so part of what I'll do is witness preparation. 00:23:15.793 --> 00:23:18.933 Candace Dellacona: I think for our listeners it's really important to 00:23:18.933 --> 00:23:23.793 note that as lawyers, particularly for those of us who have been practicing 00:23:23.793 --> 00:23:29.063 a long time, it can be easy to forget that we have gone through this process 00:23:29.083 --> 00:23:31.553 thousands of times in our career. 00:23:31.813 --> 00:23:34.483 I'm talking about death and dying and disability. 00:23:35.113 --> 00:23:37.953 People haven't gone through these conversations before 00:23:37.953 --> 00:23:39.003 in their life, hopefully. 00:23:39.393 --> 00:23:43.753 The same is true with matrimonial attorneys in that, to your point, 00:23:44.303 --> 00:23:46.183 they've prepped hundreds of witnesses. 00:23:46.183 --> 00:23:49.153 They know that there are things that are not going to be covered. 00:23:49.153 --> 00:23:52.923 Nonetheless, the client still has anxiety surrounding those subjects. 00:23:53.293 --> 00:23:57.383 And while I do think that many lawyers would put that time 00:23:57.383 --> 00:23:59.683 in, clients can't afford that. 00:23:59.703 --> 00:24:04.738 So in New York, let's say the average billable rate is $1,000 an hour to sit 00:24:04.738 --> 00:24:11.038 with your lawyer for the 10 hours that would make you comfortable is $10,000. 00:24:11.453 --> 00:24:16.663 So from a cost benefit analysis, and also quite frankly, having a coach, a 00:24:16.663 --> 00:24:22.403 person who, is sensitive to those needs as opposed to the legal answers and 00:24:22.403 --> 00:24:27.353 what the legal ramifications are of answering questions a certain way or 00:24:27.353 --> 00:24:31.973 whatever the case is, the comfort level has to be exponential to your clients. 00:24:32.693 --> 00:24:33.463 Karen Covy: A hundred percent. 00:24:33.463 --> 00:24:39.638 But, to go back, to bring this back to our previous topic of conversation, if a 00:24:39.638 --> 00:24:45.758 lawyer and a coach are working together, we can tag team the preparation and make 00:24:45.888 --> 00:24:52.098 the client so much more comfortable, drop their anxiety level, and help them be 00:24:52.098 --> 00:24:55.018 better prepared more cost effectively. 00:24:55.238 --> 00:24:59.088 There are some things that no matter how much I, as a coach, am going to prepare 00:24:59.088 --> 00:25:04.228 the witness or prepare a client, I'm also going to say to them, make sure I have to 00:25:04.228 --> 00:25:08.928 know what's your lawyer's theory of the case, what direction are they going, what 00:25:08.928 --> 00:25:12.908 do they want to, what kind of testimony do they want to highlight, what do they, 00:25:12.918 --> 00:25:15.098 what would they rather play down, right? 00:25:15.528 --> 00:25:21.338 And if all of us are working together as a team for that end, it's a beautiful thing. 00:25:21.658 --> 00:25:22.478 Candace Dellacona: Absolutely. 00:25:22.708 --> 00:25:26.358 And so, you've provided us with so much valuable information, 00:25:26.358 --> 00:25:29.638 especially for people thinking about starting this process. 00:25:30.128 --> 00:25:32.978 And maybe this is going to be a hard question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. 00:25:33.348 --> 00:25:37.978 So Karen, if someone is at the point where they're ready to actually make a 00:25:37.978 --> 00:25:43.628 move and commence, the dissolution of their marriage, is there advice that 00:25:43.628 --> 00:25:48.258 you would give about hiring the divorce coach and going the mediation route? 00:25:48.398 --> 00:25:50.138 Or the opposite. 00:25:50.163 --> 00:25:53.273 And maybe, your answer might be biased because you're a mediator 00:25:53.273 --> 00:25:55.623 as well, but I would love to hear your perspective on that. 00:25:57.483 --> 00:25:59.093 Karen Covy: I'm going to answer like a lawyer. 00:25:59.183 --> 00:25:59.663 Candace Dellacona: Okay. 00:25:59.813 --> 00:26:00.843 It depends. 00:26:01.033 --> 00:26:01.123 Karen Covy: It depends. 00:26:02.683 --> 00:26:06.713 But the truth is it does depend on the circumstance, and that's one of the things 00:26:06.713 --> 00:26:11.863 as a coach that I can help people parse out, is in your particular circumstances, 00:26:12.043 --> 00:26:14.923 does mediation make sense or is it going to be a total waste of time? 00:26:15.318 --> 00:26:19.538 Because it could be, but in the beginning, the first piece of advice I 00:26:19.538 --> 00:26:22.988 would give to anyone is to get prepared. 00:26:23.128 --> 00:26:28.108 Do not just dive into a divorce, not understanding what the ramifications 00:26:28.108 --> 00:26:32.498 are going to be, not having a plan for your kids, your personal life. 00:26:32.498 --> 00:26:33.378 Where are you going to live? 00:26:33.538 --> 00:26:36.918 Are you going to live with that person you're divorcing in the same house? 00:26:37.413 --> 00:26:39.303 I mean, there are times when that makes sense. 00:26:39.383 --> 00:26:40.773 There are times when it really doesn't. 00:26:40.803 --> 00:26:43.383 And either way, it's uncomfortable as all get out. 00:26:43.673 --> 00:26:49.093 So you have to have some sort of a plan and be prepared and educate yourself 00:26:49.093 --> 00:26:53.733 about how this is going to go before you jump in and before you just walk 00:26:53.733 --> 00:26:57.913 into a lawyer's office and say, yeah, I want a divorce, write up the paperwork. 00:26:58.163 --> 00:27:02.503 That's pretty much the worst way to go about it because that's when 00:27:02.503 --> 00:27:06.073 you get caught off guard and that's when things can, you can turn them 00:27:06.073 --> 00:27:10.543 into a war right out of the gate and that then you're playing catch up. 00:27:10.733 --> 00:27:15.023 Then you're trying to, tame down the flames and keep this from 00:27:15.023 --> 00:27:17.703 being an all out nuclear attack. 00:27:18.043 --> 00:27:20.293 And that's a hard place to retreat from. 00:27:20.303 --> 00:27:25.083 It is much easier to have an amicable divorce if you start that way. 00:27:25.243 --> 00:27:26.513 You can always ramp up. 00:27:26.683 --> 00:27:28.153 It's hard to pull back. 00:27:28.513 --> 00:27:30.513 Candace Dellacona: I think that's really good advice, Karen. 00:27:30.513 --> 00:27:32.403 At the end of the day, it's painful. 00:27:32.693 --> 00:27:34.353 So why suffer the suffering? 00:27:34.663 --> 00:27:40.263 The best way to go is having a little bit of education from the outset and knowledge 00:27:40.263 --> 00:27:44.233 is power, and that's partly why we do this podcast for our Sandwich Generation 00:27:44.233 --> 00:27:49.233 members, to have some orientation as to all of the different folks that can really 00:27:49.523 --> 00:27:53.163 help them in the Sandwich Generation, and divorce happens to be one of those topics. 00:27:53.173 --> 00:27:55.733 So I've loved this conversation, Karen. 00:27:55.733 --> 00:27:58.733 I'm sure that we're going to Plenty of questions and people 00:27:58.733 --> 00:28:00.003 who want to get in touch with you. 00:28:00.003 --> 00:28:03.363 So for our listeners, you can reach Karen directly and we'll put this 00:28:03.373 --> 00:28:05.663 in the show notes at karencovy.com. 00:28:06.033 --> 00:28:07.953 She is an incredible resource. 00:28:08.273 --> 00:28:11.463 I think you'll agree with me and I just wanted to say thank you so 00:28:11.463 --> 00:28:12.883 much for your time today, Karen. 00:28:13.353 --> 00:28:14.333 Karen Covy: Candace, thank you. 00:28:14.343 --> 00:28:15.583 It has been my pleasure. 00:28:15.583 --> 00:28:17.313 I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. 00:28:17.653 --> 00:28:18.303 Candace Dellacona: Likewise.