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Welcome back to the episode of
the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan
joint as always by my

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friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will, Schroeder will buddy
for like, what, 20 years?

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You were 80 hour
a week office guy.

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First in, last out,
you know, that was the,

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the, the badge of honor.

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And I can't imagine that,
that, that would've ever

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changed for you, and yet if
I were to say, Hey, will.

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Let's go back to being in
a physical office again.

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Now let's just try it.

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Let's go back in
five days a week.

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Let's just be back in office.

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What would your
response be to that?

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At this point,

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I wanna point out that
this is my dream job.

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Okay, before I give you my
response, like, like, here's

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my dream job is everything
I've ever wanted in a job

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and I get to sit around and
bullshit with founders all day.

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It's like the best job ever.

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And if someone were to say
to me, the only thing well

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is tomorrow, you gotta come
in the office to do it.

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I would put in my
notice right on the spot

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right there.

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I would quit my own job if it
meant I had to go back in an.

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Yep.

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We're winding it down.

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Why?

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Because we open an office.

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Sorry.

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And to, to be fair, because
I've got a lot of friends on

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both sides of the aisle on, on
this whole remote work versus

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an office, it's not that,
that I think in office is bad.

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I wouldn't be put, yeah.

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I don't wanna work in an office.

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Right.

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That's, that's different
than me saying other people

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could thrive in an office.

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I did it for decades, right?

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I, I did my tour of duty.

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It's not for me.

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If you're opposed with
the same question, how

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would you process it?

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I think it would depend on a
whole lot of different things.

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Like my, my initial
reaction would be mm-hmm.

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No, I don't want to, I've
really enjoyed remote work.

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I thrive in it.

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I think we've figured it out.

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I think it would
depend on the work.

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Like if, if it was like, to your
point, we have our dream job.

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Yeah, this does exactly what
we want to do and we get to do

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it exactly how we want it to.

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Yep.

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If the whole job changed
somehow, like we were gonna do

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something completely different,
then maybe I'd think about it.

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But I also don't want to do
something completely different.

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So it's kind of
a trick question.

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I don't, I don't see what the
benefit would be at this point.

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For me, it's funny having,
having just moved to Madrid,

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this is a significantly.

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Different feeling, I
think, than I might've had.

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Okay.

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I think I was getting to a point
in Antigua, in, in Guatemala

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where I was like, I was so
starved for like other founder

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interactions that I might've
been like, you know what?

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That, that might
actually be okay.

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Yeah, maybe let's do that.

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But I had, I had breakfast,
I had coffee with a, a, a

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founder, uh, from California
this morning is Spaniard, but he

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was, he lives in California now.

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He was here, wanted
to sit down and talk.

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We, we had a great
chat and so like.

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I think I would've said yes,
maybe for the wrong reasons.

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And now I think that I'm
back and like I can get

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some of that proximity.

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I can get some of that osmotic
effect where like things rub

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off without needing an office.

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Because I think for me, and
we've talked about this on

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the podcast a couple times,
like it was draining me.

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It was like as an introvert
who extroverts when he has

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to, and as an empath who picks
up on every little thing that

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everybody says and feels like I
need to help and fix and solve,

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holy shit, was that draining?

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Right?

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Like l

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let, let me give you a parallel.

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No one looks back on their
college years with wild

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memories of how much fun
it was to be in class.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Unless you're a giant
nerd, did we go to class?

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But like, but you know what
I'm saying, like college

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was a mechanism, right.

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That required work, most
of which you didn't want

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to do at the time in order
to socialize and, and be

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connected to all these people.

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Right.

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It was a means to an end.

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Right?

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And so the office worked
as the same mechanism.

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Uh, I hear people say this
all the time, they're like,

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I don't socialize as much.

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Like, like that does bother me.

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Yeah.

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But I'd never hear people say,
God, I miss conference rooms.

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Right.

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I never hear that.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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What, what they're
saying is I miss being

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social said differently.

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If you were social every single
day, if you were out meeting

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people and, and, and connecting
and whatever every single day,

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the last thing on your mind,
my guess for most people would

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be, I really missed my desk.

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I really miss

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my

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terminal.

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It'd be great to have to
circle the parking lot a

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couple times and try to
find a space this morning.

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That's what's missing.

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Yeah, I think so, man.

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Yeah, I miss

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like fighting through traffic.

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What people are saying is
that I miss talking to humans.

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Okay.

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Yeah, so, so because we have
on the remote side of the

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remote work side, we have
optimized for the other

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direction, like total isolation.

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It's, it's real.

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COVID messed all of us up.

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COVID messed me up, right?

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Like I was so used to being
around people all the time.

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And just an, an hour
ago, uh, you know, we, we

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actually had a team lunch.

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I haven't seen my coworkers
in six months, right?

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It's amazing.

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They live 20, 20 minutes away.

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It is crazy to think how
isolated I've become.

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However, and, and this is, you
know, what we'll unpack today,

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I don't necessarily think the
cure is a conference room.

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I think cure is is
more socialization.

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Yeah.

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But more importantly, over the
past couple days, we've had

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some in-person meetings with
our coworkers and one of the

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things that that's occurred to
me in those meetings is that

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for the longest time in Ryan, I
think since you and I have been.

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Going through this, this remote
work journey, you know, post

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COVID like a lot of people, I
think we kept trying to take

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the old fundamentals of an
office and make them remote.

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Yeah.

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And I think that broke
quite a bit, you know?

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Yeah, it, it did.

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I think there was a lot
of force functioning.

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I mean like the Friday
office parties on Zoom.

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We tried this once.

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Oh, so sad.

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Remember we were like, and
feel free to bring a drink.

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And I remember like, as we
said that, I was like, did

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we just encourage people to
drink at home by themselves?

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Sort of on a Zoom call?

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I was like, that
doesn't even sound fun.

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Like even if somebody was
like, yeah, that sounds okay.

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It was bad.

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So our

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big thing just including in,
uh, folks in the audience

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on Fridays, we used to have
a happy hour, uh, every

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Friday at three o'clock.

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You know, uh, we'd sit
down, we'd all get in

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the conference room and
everyone would have a drink.

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Not everybody, a lot of
people, uh, would have a

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drink and uh, sometimes even
ran a little bit longer.

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People just wanted to be there
and bs with folks, et cetera.

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And that me, we run the grill

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on the back porch, like, yeah.

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Yeah.

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It was like, it was fun for
those that wanted to be there.

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It wasn't obligatory

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also important.

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Right.

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For those that
wanted to be there.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Because not everybody, in
retrospect wanted to be there.

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The other part of it was, it
was a bit of a, like a payment

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for having to be in the office.

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It was, it was like, uh,
well get some not office

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time so that you can enjoy
yourself versus being

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stuck at a conference room.

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And I thought to myself when
we first went remote, just

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like you said, we tried to do
the Friday, uh, happy hour on

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Zoom, which was sad as can be.

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Yes.

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But that was our first instinct.

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We tried to take the
old world and force it

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into this new world.

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Just recreate it.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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And it, it broke horribly
because I, I think part of

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what we wanted, we wanted those
spontaneous moments, right?

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We wanted those basically be
able to get everybody in the

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same room and have some laughs
together, which is great, right?

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Yeah.

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But it didn't quite translate.

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And also at the time, this
was COVID, everybody's getting

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zoom fatigue to begin with.

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And I think we've learned
that there's a lot of things

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you cannot do over Zoom
and Slack in the same way.

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We've learned there's a
lot of things you can't

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do over social media.

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Or text message.

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Yeah.

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It just, it doesn't land
the same, like you can do

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exactly the same things,
but because of the digital

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separation, it just doesn't
land the same way and it's

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just time wasted at that point.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I think that it's, you know,
we, we learned the hard way that

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you can't just copy paste office
traditions into remote, right.

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The, the answer is trying to
find and build new rituals

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that actually fit for how
we work now up to, and

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including just admitting
that maybe socialization

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isn't part of what we do.

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Through the digital
channels with our team.

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Right.

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Let's talk about that.

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Yeah.

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We've moved to a transactional
electronic environment, right?

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Yep.

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Again, via slack, via
zoom, via social media.

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We have, as a society moved to
this transactional nature where

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when I post something on social,
the transactions are like.

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Our comments are in, in some
cases, subscribes, et cetera.

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Like literally, my
interactions have become

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this binary switch, right?

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Where I like, oh, I
got X amount of likes.

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I must have done a good job.

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Yeah, I got no likes.

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What's wrong with everybody
and what's wrong with me?

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Right?

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Like.

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It's very transactional and I
think that where that's changed

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a bit is we weren't used to
only having that at work.

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Now, I'm sure some people did.

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I'm sure people, some people
had to go wildly transactional

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work environment like
almost too professional.

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Yeah.

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But we didn't, and.

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As I've seen that kind
of stripped away from

252
00:08:16,830 --> 00:08:17,970
us, it's presented.

253
00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:21,360
The question for me in a remote
workforce, what is culture?

254
00:08:21,660 --> 00:08:23,550
You have to go back to that
first because if what you're

255
00:08:23,550 --> 00:08:26,340
trying to do is support and
feed culture, you have to

256
00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:28,170
actually understand what
the new culture is before

257
00:08:28,170 --> 00:08:28,980
you can, you can do that.

258
00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:31,080
I think we were trying to
nourish a brand new baby

259
00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,600
culture with the same old
steak and potatoes that

260
00:08:33,630 --> 00:08:35,309
we'd been feeding the old
one, it just didn't work.

261
00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:35,580
Right.

262
00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:36,105
Put it, yeah.

263
00:08:36,105 --> 00:08:36,225
Yeah.

264
00:08:36,225 --> 00:08:37,080
It just did not work.

265
00:08:37,620 --> 00:08:40,049
But I think it's important
because I, I think there

266
00:08:40,049 --> 00:08:43,380
is a, a big kind of macro
question, which is like.

267
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,600
Is it possible for a team to
stay motivated and engaged

268
00:08:47,810 --> 00:08:51,470
long-term in, and maybe that's
the question is like, is

269
00:08:51,470 --> 00:08:53,150
that actually what we need
in this new environment?

270
00:08:53,150 --> 00:08:53,300
Right.

271
00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:55,189
I think, again, that's part of
what we're trying to recreate.

272
00:08:55,189 --> 00:08:58,069
We're saying, okay, well if the
culture can't be the same, but

273
00:08:58,069 --> 00:09:00,380
we still want that motivation,
we want that engagement.

274
00:09:00,620 --> 00:09:04,670
But can that still exist when
work is purely transactional?

275
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:05,660
And then I guess.

276
00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:08,370
Does it need to or is
that still just something

277
00:09:08,370 --> 00:09:09,120
that we're holding onto?

278
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,140
Is that a relic as well?

279
00:09:10,290 --> 00:09:11,070
Let's build on that.

280
00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:12,960
I would say, Ryan, if you
and I were starting a new

281
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,110
company tomorrow, I would
prefer we were in office.

282
00:09:16,260 --> 00:09:16,680
Okay.

283
00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:16,920
Yeah.

284
00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:19,860
Now, now the, the reason I say
that is because I do believe

285
00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:24,420
at that, that very formative
state, there was a tremendous

286
00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:29,460
amount of value to basically,
uh, just talking and having all

287
00:09:29,460 --> 00:09:31,170
of these chance discoveries.

288
00:09:31,745 --> 00:09:32,015
Okay.

289
00:09:32,075 --> 00:09:32,800
It's just the O osm,

290
00:09:32,975 --> 00:09:34,145
the the osmosis, right?

291
00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:35,000
A hundred percent right.

292
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,625
Just being able for things
to just random collisions

293
00:09:37,625 --> 00:09:39,560
that lead to some sort of
spark that goes somewhere.

294
00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:41,850
Which happens a lot
in the formative.

295
00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:43,829
In other words, like we
are, like, everything is

296
00:09:43,829 --> 00:09:46,319
changing by the second
in the formative stages.

297
00:09:46,650 --> 00:09:48,900
That I think having
that goes a long way.

298
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:51,600
It allows us to talk about
things that don't have to have

299
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:52,560
a meeting called for them.

300
00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:55,590
We just happen to be like, like
catching a concept together.

301
00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:55,890
I remember

302
00:09:55,890 --> 00:09:56,730
so many of these moments.

303
00:09:56,730 --> 00:09:59,220
I remember some of these moments
where I, I remember walking

304
00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:04,140
past the, the door of the sales
room and hearing somebody.

305
00:10:04,465 --> 00:10:06,715
Pitch the, the, the idea
in a way I hadn't heard

306
00:10:06,715 --> 00:10:08,185
before and all of a sudden
I was like, oh my God.

307
00:10:08,185 --> 00:10:09,625
Like I've never heard
it said that way before.

308
00:10:09,625 --> 00:10:10,915
That's so much better.

309
00:10:11,185 --> 00:10:11,275
Right.

310
00:10:11,275 --> 00:10:13,525
I remember like literally
sprinting down the, the, the

311
00:10:13,525 --> 00:10:15,715
stairs probably pissing somebody
off who was in the little

312
00:10:15,715 --> 00:10:17,425
quiet call booth on the right.

313
00:10:17,665 --> 00:10:17,935
Yeah.

314
00:10:17,935 --> 00:10:20,455
And, and running back to my
desk to like write it down

315
00:10:20,455 --> 00:10:21,715
before, before I lost it.

316
00:10:22,045 --> 00:10:23,720
That kinda stuff doesn't happen
when, when you're remote.

317
00:10:24,359 --> 00:10:24,719
Right.

318
00:10:24,959 --> 00:10:27,239
It's also really hard to
quantify what the value of

319
00:10:27,239 --> 00:10:30,089
that stuff is and to say that
like, we're doing it for this

320
00:10:30,359 --> 00:10:34,770
really like tertiary reason
of random particle collision.

321
00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:36,000
That's why we're doing this.

322
00:10:36,329 --> 00:10:37,589
It's hard to justify it.

323
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,380
I think a couple things have
happened here, which, which

324
00:10:40,380 --> 00:10:41,040
I think is interesting.

325
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,920
One is, I think we now
have, you know, I talked

326
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:44,729
about this before.

327
00:10:45,435 --> 00:10:48,915
New generations that have come
up where this isn't unusual.

328
00:10:49,155 --> 00:10:49,305
Okay.

329
00:10:49,305 --> 00:10:51,734
So, you know, we have to, we
have to step back and look at

330
00:10:51,734 --> 00:10:53,895
our own bias and say, look,
we came up through a di very

331
00:10:53,895 --> 00:10:56,535
different generation, uh,
for us in the, the eighties,

332
00:10:56,535 --> 00:10:59,505
nineties, and two thousands
where being in the office was

333
00:10:59,505 --> 00:11:00,405
a hallmark of your career.

334
00:11:01,530 --> 00:11:04,350
Like it, it's, it's where
you got a lot done socially,

335
00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:06,660
you know, politically, you
know, things like that.

336
00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:10,020
For a younger generation,
certainly post COVID that

337
00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:13,110
has never seen the inside of
an office, it's hard to say.

338
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:15,225
I, I miss those things
if you never had them.

339
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,080
When we tell, uh, somebody
younger, let's say 22 coming

340
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,690
into the workforce, that
after work, we used to

341
00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:22,440
all play hockey together.

342
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:23,490
I'm sure they get that.

343
00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:24,630
Like if you like hockey, right?

344
00:11:24,630 --> 00:11:24,690
Yeah.

345
00:11:24,690 --> 00:11:25,890
They're like, oh my God,
that sounds amazing.

346
00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:26,040
You mean like

347
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,150
N Hhl 2025,

348
00:11:27,390 --> 00:11:27,660
right?

349
00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:27,840
Right.

350
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:28,350
Exactly.

351
00:11:28,740 --> 00:11:32,340
But we also had to, uh, get
up at, get up for work at, at

352
00:11:32,340 --> 00:11:34,380
eight of the morning and fight
traffic every single day and

353
00:11:34,410 --> 00:11:35,370
then fight it all the way home.

354
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:35,550
Yeah.

355
00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:37,830
And we're usually sitting in
our car for an average of an

356
00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:40,050
hour per day, uh, every day.

357
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,240
There's no version of like,
oh, man, the good old days.

358
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,740
Like, how, how do
I get some of that?

359
00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:45,100
Right?

360
00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:49,390
Or you sometimes would've an
office or office a a boss that

361
00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:51,670
would walk around desks to
desk, just bullshitting with

362
00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:53,980
everybody just to make sure that
they, that they were there on

363
00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:55,300
time and they were doing work.

364
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,610
You're like, well, well, I don't
think I missed that either.

365
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,370
I mean, like, yeah, there's
so many things that if you

366
00:12:00,370 --> 00:12:02,949
had never experienced this,
you'd never wish upon yourself.

367
00:12:03,370 --> 00:12:05,470
Wouldn't, and I think that
there are, are far better

368
00:12:05,470 --> 00:12:06,520
ways of doing those things.

369
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,770
I, this is one of the, the
core points you and I made

370
00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:10,840
is we, 'cause remember
we took our teams remote

371
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,130
well before the pandemic.

372
00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:14,710
We were a mostly remote company
by the time the pandemic hit,

373
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:15,819
and then we became fully remote.

374
00:12:15,819 --> 00:12:17,410
But we were, we were
already rocking that.

375
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,740
And so I, I think one of the,
the pieces of pushback that

376
00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:23,110
we got was like, you know,
people are working, how do

377
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:23,560
you know they're doing this?

378
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:23,814
And they're like.

379
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,520
The only way you are measuring
your team's work is by seeing

380
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,740
that their butts are in
chairs in front of monitors.

381
00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:35,310
Like you're probably
already non-productive.

382
00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:36,570
Let's put a pin in
that for a second.

383
00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:36,720
Yeah.

384
00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,140
'cause Sure.

385
00:12:37,170 --> 00:12:39,570
I wanna devote like a whole
section on just that I,

386
00:12:39,570 --> 00:12:41,760
on autonomy of folks and
everything else like that.

387
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:42,960
Yeah, let's definitely
get back to that one.

388
00:12:43,140 --> 00:12:45,270
I wanna circle back to what
you said before around the

389
00:12:45,270 --> 00:12:47,445
fact that there are, there's a
generation of people who are.

390
00:12:47,970 --> 00:12:50,670
Are working now who never
experienced an office.

391
00:12:50,675 --> 00:12:50,855
Right?

392
00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:51,000
Right.

393
00:12:51,055 --> 00:12:52,710
They, they started digitally.

394
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,390
So I think that's part of it.

395
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,010
That calls into
question two things.

396
00:12:56,010 --> 00:13:00,210
One, would they even expect
there to be a company culture?

397
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,850
And in the same way that I
think you and I look at it

398
00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:05,760
and go, well, whatever version
of company culture you create

399
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,760
digitally is gonna be some
watered down version of that.

400
00:13:09,270 --> 00:13:11,160
They may not feel
that way either.

401
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,860
They may go, well, but
this is, you know, maybe.

402
00:13:14,385 --> 00:13:17,834
We having come up through a very
different beginnings, uh, in, in

403
00:13:17,834 --> 00:13:19,244
having an actual office culture.

404
00:13:19,665 --> 00:13:22,275
Maybe they have an
ability to seed culture

405
00:13:22,275 --> 00:13:24,255
and grow culture and be
satisfied with the culture.

406
00:13:24,704 --> 00:13:25,905
That's just pure digital.

407
00:13:25,994 --> 00:13:27,405
They're like, no,
this is what we do.

408
00:13:27,405 --> 00:13:29,175
And I'm like, no, this is
exactly the type of culture

409
00:13:29,175 --> 00:13:30,614
that we form in our, our subs.

410
00:13:30,734 --> 00:13:32,805
This is exactly the kind
of culture that we form in

411
00:13:32,834 --> 00:13:35,415
our discords and my gaming
community and whatever.

412
00:13:35,984 --> 00:13:38,444
Um, and so part of me just
goes like, maybe I'm just

413
00:13:38,444 --> 00:13:39,464
wearing the Fogy hat here.

414
00:13:39,464 --> 00:13:39,795
I don't know.

415
00:13:40,005 --> 00:13:41,745
I think so, and, and
again, let's look it up

416
00:13:41,745 --> 00:13:42,585
from two different ways.

417
00:13:42,825 --> 00:13:45,315
Let's, let's agree that, that
clearly we have bias because

418
00:13:45,315 --> 00:13:46,305
we saw something before.

419
00:13:46,305 --> 00:13:48,375
It's the same way, like when
we talk about social media

420
00:13:48,645 --> 00:13:50,775
and we're like, oh my God,
everybody's just on social media

421
00:13:50,775 --> 00:13:51,915
staring at their phone all day.

422
00:13:52,065 --> 00:13:53,565
When, when I grew up
you just had to talk

423
00:13:53,565 --> 00:13:54,495
to somebody, et cetera.

424
00:13:54,885 --> 00:13:58,875
Now a huge, massive part of that
is my bias toward, you know, how

425
00:13:58,875 --> 00:14:00,285
I grew up and, and what I saw.

426
00:14:00,525 --> 00:14:02,265
I honestly wish it
were the opposite.

427
00:14:02,265 --> 00:14:02,355
Sure.

428
00:14:02,415 --> 00:14:05,115
I wish these online
interactions were so genuine

429
00:14:05,115 --> 00:14:07,275
and authentic that I could
do more of them because

430
00:14:07,275 --> 00:14:08,325
I love talking to people.

431
00:14:09,045 --> 00:14:11,955
That said, when we look at and
we zoom out and we say, we wanna

432
00:14:11,955 --> 00:14:15,255
build a culture in this company
that stands for something.

433
00:14:15,255 --> 00:14:18,645
And, and, uh, people feel
a part of something that's

434
00:14:18,645 --> 00:14:23,745
really hard to do, I think,
in a transactional environment

435
00:14:24,045 --> 00:14:27,314
or, again, everything's is,
is comments and likes, right?

436
00:14:27,314 --> 00:14:27,375
Yeah.

437
00:14:27,375 --> 00:14:29,025
Like everything is disconnected.

438
00:14:29,235 --> 00:14:29,835
You've got Right.

439
00:14:30,345 --> 00:14:33,285
Some Zoom calls from time to
time, but everybody's in their

440
00:14:33,285 --> 00:14:34,635
pajamas on a fake background.

441
00:14:34,635 --> 00:14:39,405
Like it's like, it just like
none of it feels nearly as real.

442
00:14:39,525 --> 00:14:41,444
And again, I understand that,
that I'm comparing my own

443
00:14:41,444 --> 00:14:44,655
bias, but none of it feels
as real and as natural as

444
00:14:44,655 --> 00:14:46,155
having someone next to you.

445
00:14:46,335 --> 00:14:49,005
So I think if, if you believe
that, and I think a fair

446
00:14:49,005 --> 00:14:51,705
amount of people do, you
just step back and you say,

447
00:14:51,705 --> 00:14:52,965
okay, that is what it is.

448
00:14:53,205 --> 00:14:53,715
Now what?

449
00:14:54,345 --> 00:14:54,495
Yeah.

450
00:14:54,495 --> 00:14:55,814
Instead of trying
to get back to that.

451
00:14:56,475 --> 00:14:56,834
Right.

452
00:14:57,165 --> 00:14:57,885
Take it off the table.

453
00:14:58,245 --> 00:14:58,605
Yeah.

454
00:14:58,605 --> 00:15:00,944
So that's, I guess that, so
that's the, there's sort of two

455
00:15:00,944 --> 00:15:03,675
big questions in my mind, it
branches down from the first.

456
00:15:04,155 --> 00:15:08,324
The first is, do we
need culture at all?

457
00:15:08,805 --> 00:15:09,015
Right.

458
00:15:09,015 --> 00:15:11,385
At this point, is it, are
we just moving to a purely

459
00:15:11,385 --> 00:15:15,704
transactional model where it
is, you know, you're trading

460
00:15:15,704 --> 00:15:17,564
outcomes for for dollars, right?

461
00:15:17,569 --> 00:15:18,010
And right.

462
00:15:18,255 --> 00:15:22,545
And so is it just purely
transactional if we say.

463
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,630
No, there does need to be
some level of culture, right?

464
00:15:27,630 --> 00:15:30,330
Because it's important
to the business, and we

465
00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:32,370
can get into why that
might be or might not be.

466
00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:34,260
There might be certain types of
businesses where that is true.

467
00:15:34,260 --> 00:15:36,180
There might be certain types of
businesses where there aren't.

468
00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:40,290
I certainly feel like for
what we do and the amount

469
00:15:40,290 --> 00:15:42,600
of kind of heart and soul
that gets put into the work

470
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,200
that we do with founders, it
would be hard to do that on

471
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,850
a purely transactional basis.

472
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,180
But hold that aside.

473
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,820
Let's assume that, let's,
let's go with answer, answer

474
00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,340
one, which is yes, there does
need to be some, some culture.

475
00:15:56,030 --> 00:16:00,110
Do you think that there are
any aspects of the in-person

476
00:16:00,110 --> 00:16:04,130
culture that we should try
to replicate or do we have

477
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:08,210
to let it go entirely and
rebuild new digital first?

478
00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:09,180
Culture.

479
00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:09,870
You know

480
00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:12,990
something that's really funny
about everything we talk about

481
00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:15,720
here is that none of it is new.

482
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:18,570
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

483
00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:22,410
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

484
00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:24,270
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.

485
00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:26,460
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

486
00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:29,100
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

487
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:33,240
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

488
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,600
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

489
00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:37,650
about what to do.

490
00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:41,000
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.

491
00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:43,790
I think we need to recognize
the limitations of a digital

492
00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:44,420
first culture, right?

493
00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:44,750
Mm-hmm.

494
00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:47,300
Again, I, I, I think, I think
there are, are some hard

495
00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:51,200
limitations that if we try
to fake it, uh, ergo our, our

496
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,490
zoom happy hour with a drink.

497
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:52,550
Yeah.

498
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:54,230
It's just inauthentic.

499
00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:55,910
It, it's, we're trying to
make something that, that

500
00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:58,100
isn't, you know, uh, what
we, what we want it to be.

501
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:58,160
Yeah.

502
00:16:58,610 --> 00:17:01,610
I also think that you, you
mentioned something earlier

503
00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:05,810
that culture has always had
an implicit sense of buy-in.

504
00:17:06,555 --> 00:17:08,355
That everybody wanted
in on the culture.

505
00:17:08,595 --> 00:17:11,925
You and I, you and I
remember our times of playing

506
00:17:11,925 --> 00:17:13,640
hockey or NBA jam Oh yeah.

507
00:17:13,645 --> 00:17:15,795
Or whatever, like, you know,
in the office very fondly.

508
00:17:16,395 --> 00:17:18,525
I can think of some people
in the office who did not

509
00:17:18,525 --> 00:17:19,635
think of that very fondly.

510
00:17:19,665 --> 00:17:20,145
Correct.

511
00:17:20,204 --> 00:17:23,505
They were, they were less bought
into the hockey part of it.

512
00:17:23,505 --> 00:17:23,925
Yes.

513
00:17:24,135 --> 00:17:24,300
Yeah.

514
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:24,375
Yeah.

515
00:17:24,375 --> 00:17:24,615
Or

516
00:17:24,615 --> 00:17:25,425
NBA jam there.

517
00:17:25,425 --> 00:17:27,855
There were somebody that sat
right next to the NBA jam arcade

518
00:17:27,855 --> 00:17:30,255
cabinet that would get up and
leave and just go home every

519
00:17:30,255 --> 00:17:31,275
single time we started playing.

520
00:17:31,545 --> 00:17:31,725
Right.

521
00:17:31,725 --> 00:17:31,815
Well,

522
00:17:31,875 --> 00:17:34,365
yeah, I can't, you were
either playing NBA jam or

523
00:17:34,365 --> 00:17:35,565
you, you weren't working.

524
00:17:35,655 --> 00:17:37,185
No matter what, even if
you weren't playing, you

525
00:17:37,185 --> 00:17:38,925
weren't working because
the amount of noise.

526
00:17:39,285 --> 00:17:39,524
Yeah.

527
00:17:39,524 --> 00:17:40,875
So, but that's my point, right?

528
00:17:40,875 --> 00:17:43,185
Like the part of that
culture always assumes

529
00:17:43,185 --> 00:17:45,105
that everybody else is like
down with that culture.

530
00:17:45,435 --> 00:17:47,625
And, and I always think it's
fascinating because like

531
00:17:47,655 --> 00:17:50,385
even places like Google that
try to build this like other

532
00:17:50,385 --> 00:17:51,675
worldly level of culture.

533
00:17:51,825 --> 00:17:51,945
Yeah.

534
00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:54,105
And by the way, whenever they
say like, this is such a cool

535
00:17:54,105 --> 00:17:57,435
place to work, what they're
always talking about is how

536
00:17:57,435 --> 00:17:58,995
much stuff doesn't involve work.

537
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,060
Yes, it's the free lunches,
it's the foosball tables.

538
00:18:02,065 --> 00:18:02,810
It's, it's, it's such

539
00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:04,820
a cool place to, to not work.

540
00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:05,180
Yeah.

541
00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:05,629
Correct.

542
00:18:05,629 --> 00:18:05,930
Right.

543
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,270
That's essentially like
what it always was.

544
00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:10,730
But I guess my point is,
if we're gonna go back and,

545
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:13,970
and we're gonna try to like
define like what culture is

546
00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:16,340
to us, it could have nuances.

547
00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:17,810
Culture is about respect.

548
00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:19,910
Culture is is about
recognition, culture is

549
00:18:19,910 --> 00:18:21,379
about, uh, communication.

550
00:18:21,379 --> 00:18:23,990
Like those are all
very important values.

551
00:18:24,314 --> 00:18:26,294
But what we're really
talking about here, like,

552
00:18:26,294 --> 00:18:28,875
you know, a lot of what we're
talking about is community.

553
00:18:29,175 --> 00:18:29,354
Yeah.

554
00:18:29,354 --> 00:18:31,995
The, the sense that, that
we belong, that we engage

555
00:18:31,995 --> 00:18:34,875
with each other, that we
have this, this non-work.

556
00:18:35,550 --> 00:18:38,190
Engagement that we're
fostering and creating

557
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:40,020
right kind of friendships.

558
00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:40,350
Right.

559
00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:42,420
Although, you know, we're
work friendships are always

560
00:18:42,420 --> 00:18:45,120
a little bit tenuous as far
as like, are we friends?

561
00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:47,370
'cause we work together, kinda
like having a neighbor, right?

562
00:18:47,370 --> 00:18:47,730
Are we friends?

563
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,390
'cause you're my neighbor.

564
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:48,780
Are we friends?

565
00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:49,440
Could we actually friends?

566
00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:53,310
I think if we look at, if
we look@startups.com, at

567
00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:56,580
what culture is to us, it
certainly has the respect side.

568
00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:58,290
It certainly has the
accountability side.

569
00:18:59,100 --> 00:18:59,909
Here's a twist.

570
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,980
I think maybe our culture over
time, the last couple years

571
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,620
has kind of evolved to where it
is comfortably transactional.

572
00:19:11,010 --> 00:19:13,590
Meaning, I know my
job, you know your job.

573
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:14,129
Yeah.

574
00:19:14,129 --> 00:19:15,030
And we're just good.

575
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:15,810
Right?

576
00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:18,419
Like you show up and I'm
not saying specific to you

577
00:19:18,419 --> 00:19:20,730
and I I'm saying with with
everybody in the company.

578
00:19:20,735 --> 00:19:20,925
Yeah,

579
00:19:20,929 --> 00:19:21,179
yeah.

580
00:19:21,179 --> 00:19:21,840
No, I understand.

581
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:21,899
Yeah.

582
00:19:21,899 --> 00:19:24,570
Everyone drops in, they
say, I did what I said I was

583
00:19:24,570 --> 00:19:26,070
gonna do, and they're out.

584
00:19:26,805 --> 00:19:28,455
I can't remember the last
time I asked anybody where

585
00:19:28,455 --> 00:19:30,645
they were or what they were
doing or like, you know, any

586
00:19:30,645 --> 00:19:32,775
of the stuff that used to
be the tropes of in office.

587
00:19:33,105 --> 00:19:34,035
It doesn't even occur to me.

588
00:19:34,245 --> 00:19:34,815
Doesn't, yeah.

589
00:19:34,815 --> 00:19:38,325
Well, why would it at this
point, I think I'm gonna echo

590
00:19:38,325 --> 00:19:40,155
back to something that, the
question that you asked though,

591
00:19:40,155 --> 00:19:43,365
which is, or what you said is if
we were starting something new.

592
00:19:43,670 --> 00:19:45,080
Would we still take that?

593
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,030
Would we still accept
that same approach?

594
00:19:47,030 --> 00:19:49,220
Would we say, I guess
said differently.

595
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:53,330
Is it possible to walk
into something new,

596
00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:56,420
to begin something new
and to walk in feeling

597
00:19:56,450 --> 00:19:58,100
comfortably transactional?

598
00:19:58,190 --> 00:20:01,190
Does that exist or, or is
comfortably transactional?

599
00:20:01,580 --> 00:20:06,860
This best of breed blend of, we
used to have a strong in-office

600
00:20:06,860 --> 00:20:11,870
culture, team culture, and
now we have a strong digital.

601
00:20:12,675 --> 00:20:14,565
Work ethic and mechanism.

602
00:20:15,060 --> 00:20:17,010
And so it's a mashup
of those two things.

603
00:20:17,010 --> 00:20:18,689
But can you start with that?

604
00:20:18,689 --> 00:20:20,100
I, I'm, I don't have an answer.

605
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:21,060
Let me build on this.

606
00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:21,360
Okay.

607
00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:22,950
Uh, build this concept
because I actually, it's

608
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:23,760
kind of fascinating.

609
00:20:24,125 --> 00:20:26,370
I, I feel like, like we've
kind of reached this new

610
00:20:26,370 --> 00:20:28,050
culture and I really like it.

611
00:20:28,110 --> 00:20:30,120
And, and I guess what I'm
saying, it's, it surprises

612
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,790
even me now, again,
I'm, I'm an extrovert.

613
00:20:32,790 --> 00:20:34,050
I love being around people.

614
00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:36,090
I was always the guy at
the company, let's get

615
00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:38,010
the party started, kind
of, you know, whatever.

616
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:40,770
So again, so I love
being around people.

617
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:43,470
However, one of the things
that are kind of, I'm gonna

618
00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:45,810
call it transactional, which,
which sounds so hollow in,

619
00:20:45,810 --> 00:20:49,140
in, in without personality,
but I consider it just

620
00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:50,250
a strong understanding.

621
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:52,230
And again, it's about
responsibility for me.

622
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:53,490
It's like, I'll do my shit.

623
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:54,330
You do your shit.

624
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:54,870
Like, yeah.

625
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:54,880
Yeah.

626
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:56,160
We've got each other's back.

627
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,680
Like we can no look past
to each other and we know

628
00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,730
it's gonna score every time.

629
00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:01,920
A lot of that comes from the
fact that we've been doing this

630
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,480
together for a very long time.

631
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:03,490
Yes.

632
00:21:04,485 --> 00:21:07,604
That's why I said if we were
starting from scratch and

633
00:21:07,635 --> 00:21:10,814
we basically we had other
needs other than just the

634
00:21:10,814 --> 00:21:14,235
company's needs, emotional
support, brainstorming,

635
00:21:14,235 --> 00:21:16,814
letting the idea develop, we
just have a different set of

636
00:21:16,814 --> 00:21:19,245
needs right now@startups.com.

637
00:21:19,245 --> 00:21:20,655
We've been around for 14 years.

638
00:21:20,804 --> 00:21:22,334
We are just running a business.

639
00:21:22,574 --> 00:21:23,715
We're not forming a business.

640
00:21:23,895 --> 00:21:24,135
Correct.

641
00:21:24,135 --> 00:21:27,044
Coming with new ideas all
the time, but we are running

642
00:21:27,044 --> 00:21:29,625
a business so that we
have fewer question marks.

643
00:21:30,044 --> 00:21:31,814
Now that said here, here's
what's fascinating to me.

644
00:21:32,145 --> 00:21:34,185
Because we've evolved to
the state where everybody

645
00:21:34,185 --> 00:21:35,835
kind of knows what their,
what their position is, and

646
00:21:35,835 --> 00:21:36,615
knows what they're doing.

647
00:21:37,365 --> 00:21:40,935
It creates a level of autonomy
that we've never had before.

648
00:21:41,145 --> 00:21:41,385
Sure.

649
00:21:41,535 --> 00:21:45,375
Like I can say, Hey, you know,
whomever, just do your thing.

650
00:21:45,675 --> 00:21:47,745
Let me know when you're
done, because we've

651
00:21:47,745 --> 00:21:48,705
been around forever.

652
00:21:48,735 --> 00:21:50,715
I know exactly how that's
gonna go or not go.

653
00:21:50,745 --> 00:21:50,895
Yep.

654
00:21:51,435 --> 00:21:53,804
So what that's done for me, I'm
just gonna speak personally.

655
00:21:54,195 --> 00:21:58,514
It's allowed me to pursue other
parts of my life, my family,

656
00:21:58,514 --> 00:22:01,935
my social, et cetera, and
just leave work to be work.

657
00:22:01,965 --> 00:22:05,294
Whereas before work was like
16 hours of my day, dude.

658
00:22:05,475 --> 00:22:06,615
Right, right, right.

659
00:22:06,735 --> 00:22:08,475
And it was all consuming.

660
00:22:08,475 --> 00:22:09,225
And here's what I'm saying.

661
00:22:09,645 --> 00:22:11,834
Everything else came
at the expense of work.

662
00:22:12,495 --> 00:22:14,625
It was, it was a trade
off, and then it was a very

663
00:22:14,625 --> 00:22:16,455
apparent one at that point
when everyone else is in

664
00:22:16,455 --> 00:22:17,804
the office, when everyone's
there together, if you're

665
00:22:17,804 --> 00:22:19,425
not there, it's very obvious

666
00:22:19,905 --> 00:22:22,094
when somebody hops off a Zoom
call or a chat or whatever.

667
00:22:22,094 --> 00:22:25,185
Now I assume they go talk to
their spouse for a minute, or

668
00:22:25,185 --> 00:22:27,165
you know, like, play with their
kid for a minute, whatever.

669
00:22:27,165 --> 00:22:29,715
Like, I expect that now because.

670
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,350
I know that, that they're
good at their job.

671
00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:33,610
They're gonna get
their shit done.

672
00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:37,210
Back in the day when I had
to basically lured over

673
00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:40,390
everybody to get every minute
of productivity, in my mind it

674
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:43,090
was draining and it wasted a
ton of my time that I could have

675
00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:43,990
been spending with my family.

676
00:22:44,110 --> 00:22:44,350
Exactly.

677
00:22:44,350 --> 00:22:45,070
Or doing other stuff, right?

678
00:22:45,070 --> 00:22:45,220
Yeah.

679
00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:46,720
Just the mental
overhead of, yeah.

680
00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:47,600
Okay.

681
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,490
Actually, uh, you hit the
word that I was gonna use.

682
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:54,530
It's reduced so much overhead
for me that I can now invest

683
00:22:54,530 --> 00:22:57,679
in other things that I never
had the luxury for before.

684
00:22:57,830 --> 00:23:00,470
And yes, it comes at the
cost of, you know, developing

685
00:23:00,470 --> 00:23:01,639
some personal relationships.

686
00:23:01,639 --> 00:23:04,040
Like, like, again, different
than if you were, uh,

687
00:23:04,159 --> 00:23:04,940
sitting next to somebody.

688
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:07,865
It comes at at, at the
cost of maybe like this.

689
00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:10,875
This sense of belonging
with within everybody,

690
00:23:10,935 --> 00:23:11,685
uh, at the company.

691
00:23:11,985 --> 00:23:12,255
Yeah.

692
00:23:12,315 --> 00:23:15,315
But it comes at the payoff
of me and likely everybody

693
00:23:15,315 --> 00:23:17,775
else I know that I work
with Living Better Lives,

694
00:23:18,165 --> 00:23:18,790
which, which I think.

695
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:21,330
It is sort of one
of the core goals.

696
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,150
I think maybe that was always
there in the background, but

697
00:23:24,150 --> 00:23:26,310
I think that's one of the
interesting things is that

698
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:29,100
some of this stuff, you know,
remote just stripped away

699
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:31,500
things that, you know, were,
were perks and left us with

700
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:33,750
some of the real stuff, which
is like, are people aligned?

701
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:34,530
Are they trusted?

702
00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:36,060
Are we clear on why we exist?

703
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,730
And why we exist is to,
to do something good.

704
00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:39,930
It's to make lives
better, right?

705
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,460
We're trying to make lives
better for our clients, for

706
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:42,570
our staff, for each other.

707
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:45,810
And so I think to some degree
it, it stripped away some

708
00:23:45,810 --> 00:23:48,085
of the bullshit and, and
allowed us to get more clear.

709
00:23:49,135 --> 00:23:51,745
I want to, I wanna stick on
the, the, the value of culture.

710
00:23:51,745 --> 00:23:53,905
And I, there's a lot to dig
in around like this, the

711
00:23:53,905 --> 00:23:56,005
autonomy piece here, because
I think it's changed a lot

712
00:23:56,005 --> 00:23:58,015
about even things like, like
how we hire a hundred percent,

713
00:23:58,015 --> 00:23:59,485
how we manage, how we lead.

714
00:23:59,815 --> 00:24:01,885
But before we go there, I
wanna go back to just the

715
00:24:01,885 --> 00:24:03,085
culture piece for a second.

716
00:24:03,595 --> 00:24:06,145
At what point does it
not feel worth it, right?

717
00:24:06,145 --> 00:24:07,895
Like there's some things
where like if you do.

718
00:24:08,815 --> 00:24:11,215
80% of a job, you get
80% of the outcome.

719
00:24:11,425 --> 00:24:11,665
Yeah.

720
00:24:11,665 --> 00:24:14,905
There are some things where
like if you do 80% of the job,

721
00:24:14,965 --> 00:24:16,315
you get none of the benefits.

722
00:24:17,004 --> 00:24:19,225
And I feel like culture
can be one of those things

723
00:24:19,225 --> 00:24:22,195
where it's like, yeah, oh,
we still have cocktail hour.

724
00:24:22,195 --> 00:24:23,395
It's just virtual now.

725
00:24:23,695 --> 00:24:25,075
To me, there's zero value.

726
00:24:25,075 --> 00:24:25,855
It's not like, oh.

727
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,050
Virtual cocktail hour
is half as good as as

728
00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:29,830
regular cocktail hour.

729
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:30,910
No, it's, it's zero.

730
00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:31,150
Good.

731
00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:31,480
Right.

732
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,230
To me, it's, it's zero.

733
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:32,350
Good.

734
00:24:32,350 --> 00:24:33,160
It was like, it did nothing.

735
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:33,460
Right.

736
00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:33,760
Right.

737
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,090
And so I'm, I'm curious, like
thinking back through what

738
00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:38,680
you were saying of like, you
know, if we were gonna start

739
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,840
something new now, you know,
there would be some, some

740
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,820
difference in Delta in the
approach of how we would do it.

741
00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:44,860
And we would, we would have
to recognize the limitations

742
00:24:45,340 --> 00:24:46,014
and at some point I'm going.

743
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,080
I wonder if I would even
try, like, and, and what

744
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,540
aspects would I, oh, would
I actually try, right.

745
00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:53,430
Or would I just feel like I
get that no matter what we

746
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:56,100
do, the version of this thing
that we're gonna spend, time,

747
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:58,770
energy, and money building,
meaning just the culture piece

748
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,680
isn't gonna be worth the,
the investment at any level.

749
00:25:01,975 --> 00:25:04,824
I get that and, and think
of how, how many billions

750
00:25:04,824 --> 00:25:07,615
of dollars a startup company
spent on the concept of

751
00:25:07,615 --> 00:25:10,885
culture and to make themselves
feel like they were very

752
00:25:10,885 --> 00:25:12,595
well connected, whether
they were or they weren't.

753
00:25:12,745 --> 00:25:14,754
And I'm not anti-culture,
I just wanna be clear.

754
00:25:14,905 --> 00:25:17,605
What I'm saying is, in a
remote world that culture

755
00:25:17,605 --> 00:25:18,835
looks very different.

756
00:25:19,105 --> 00:25:21,835
It's, in my experience,
much harder to maintain.

757
00:25:22,245 --> 00:25:24,945
Um, whereas before it came
natural, and again, you

758
00:25:24,945 --> 00:25:28,455
have to ask yourself what
is the value and ROI of

759
00:25:28,455 --> 00:25:31,695
establishing, let's say, uh,
an in-person culture, uh,

760
00:25:31,695 --> 00:25:32,955
that you can't get elsewhere?

761
00:25:33,075 --> 00:25:33,135
Yeah.

762
00:25:33,165 --> 00:25:33,975
But let me say this.

763
00:25:34,695 --> 00:25:37,004
We talked earlier and I said, I
wanna get back to this concept

764
00:25:37,035 --> 00:25:39,825
of people being independent
and autonomous, et cetera.

765
00:25:40,635 --> 00:25:43,754
A couple weeks ago I was doing
job interviews for a role, and

766
00:25:43,754 --> 00:25:45,975
one of the folks asked me what
the total compensation was,

767
00:25:46,365 --> 00:25:47,415
and I said, I tell you what.

768
00:25:47,820 --> 00:25:50,820
The total compensation is just
a number, but the most valuable

769
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:52,350
thing we pay you in is autonomy.

770
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:52,950
Yeah.

771
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:55,080
And I said we pay well,
uh, we pay well here.

772
00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:57,630
But that's not really the,
the best part of working here.

773
00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:00,090
The best part of working
here is total autonomy.

774
00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:02,430
And here's what I followed
that up with and I said,

775
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:04,860
and depending on who you
are, it could also be the

776
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:05,730
worst part of working here.

777
00:26:06,090 --> 00:26:06,420
Right.

778
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,450
And I said, uh, and here,
here's my theory of which I

779
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:10,530
did not share in the interview.

780
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:15,450
I said to me, remote work
has amplified who people are.

781
00:26:15,885 --> 00:26:16,064
Yeah.

782
00:26:16,064 --> 00:26:16,125
It

783
00:26:16,125 --> 00:26:16,695
percent is given.

784
00:26:16,695 --> 00:26:19,635
People who are, are
self-directed and autonomous.

785
00:26:19,995 --> 00:26:21,764
The freedom they've
been lacking all along.

786
00:26:22,304 --> 00:26:22,395
Yeah.

787
00:26:22,395 --> 00:26:25,334
But it's been given to everybody
else who needed, you know,

788
00:26:25,334 --> 00:26:29,475
discipline or management or
whatever, a free pass to fuck

789
00:26:29,475 --> 00:26:31,514
around if I'm trying to be.

790
00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:35,310
Honest with myself as to
how I divide the world.

791
00:26:35,699 --> 00:26:38,490
It's like 90 10, I think
like maybe, and I'm probably

792
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:41,760
being generous, 10% of the
world has the, the, the merit

793
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,550
and the discipline to be
self-directed and autonomous.

794
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:44,730
Yeah.

795
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,159
Everyone wants to be left
alone, don't get me wrong.

796
00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:47,429
Right.

797
00:26:47,429 --> 00:26:50,685
Like the, the, the need is is
probably universal, but the,

798
00:26:50,685 --> 00:26:53,280
the ability to manage that
discipline when nobody else

799
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,889
is pushing you or nobody else
is telling you day to day to

800
00:26:55,889 --> 00:26:56,975
show up for work and do job.

801
00:26:56,975 --> 00:26:57,054
Yep.

802
00:26:57,659 --> 00:26:58,230
Not easy.

803
00:26:58,230 --> 00:27:00,750
I think it's a massive ask,
and I think that was wildly

804
00:27:00,750 --> 00:27:02,340
overlooked when people
went into remote work.

805
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:04,830
It's one that we overlooked,
and I think it was one that once

806
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:07,740
it became obvious, I actually
saw that as a huge benefit.

807
00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:08,429
Right?

808
00:27:08,695 --> 00:27:10,679
A huge, it was a force function
because it was also you.

809
00:27:10,679 --> 00:27:12,060
You couldn't, you
didn't hide from it.

810
00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:14,460
It wasn't like we couldn't
see which were those 10%.

811
00:27:15,449 --> 00:27:16,679
It was really obvious.

812
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:19,980
And so I guess it makes me
wonder like how much time,

813
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,929
money, effort did we waste?

814
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,409
Knowing now that probably
90% of the people that that

815
00:27:25,439 --> 00:27:27,990
we're, we were working with
or around at some point,

816
00:27:28,409 --> 00:27:29,340
were those same folks.

817
00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:32,820
And, and I guess, well, another
question, were they actually

818
00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:37,830
different in, in office culture
or were they just hiding?

819
00:27:38,189 --> 00:27:39,540
Like was it just
possible to hide.

820
00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:43,680
I can timestamp this
to the frigging year.

821
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:44,310
Okay.

822
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,860
I remember E exactly.

823
00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:47,850
When all this went out the door.

824
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,600
Here's what I'm saying.

825
00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,590
I remember to the day
exactly when the concept of

826
00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:55,020
I go to the office to work,
Uhhuh went out the door.

827
00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:55,950
It happened twice.

828
00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:58,620
It happened once when I
saw the first person on

829
00:27:58,620 --> 00:28:01,080
Facebook at at work, which
sounds Oh yeah, I remember.

830
00:28:01,155 --> 00:28:01,405
I remember that.

831
00:28:01,470 --> 00:28:02,520
Silly now that, right?

832
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:02,730
Yep.

833
00:28:02,855 --> 00:28:04,290
And and, and I was like, huh.

834
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,270
Because it wouldn't
even occurred to me like

835
00:28:06,270 --> 00:28:07,290
that you could do that.

836
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:07,680
Right.

837
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:07,860
Yeah.

838
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,840
And the best one was when I
walked by a gal's computer

839
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:15,900
who was an intern at the time,
and I looked over and she was

840
00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:17,520
watching Netflix at work, Uhhuh.

841
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:19,410
And I was like,
what are you doing?

842
00:28:19,620 --> 00:28:20,640
She's like, oh no,
don't worry about it.

843
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,690
It's on a, a second monitor.

844
00:28:21,780 --> 00:28:22,980
I'm doing work on the
other monitor, Uhhuh.

845
00:28:23,805 --> 00:28:24,255
Yeah.

846
00:28:24,465 --> 00:28:27,825
Like, and I'm like, it doesn't
even occur to you like Right.

847
00:28:27,825 --> 00:28:28,815
I'm the fucking CEO o of the

848
00:28:28,815 --> 00:28:29,775
company and like, you don't

849
00:28:29,775 --> 00:28:29,985
even

850
00:28:29,985 --> 00:28:32,715
lie to me and, and tells
you not to worry about it.

851
00:28:32,715 --> 00:28:32,955
Right.

852
00:28:32,955 --> 00:28:36,885
Like, I'm pretty sure the job
description says I'm allowed

853
00:28:36,885 --> 00:28:38,025
to pick what we worry about.

854
00:28:38,025 --> 00:28:38,655
One, two.

855
00:28:38,655 --> 00:28:38,685
Okay.

856
00:28:38,865 --> 00:28:39,255
But yeah.

857
00:28:39,255 --> 00:28:41,115
But just the fact that
it didn't even occur.

858
00:28:41,115 --> 00:28:41,325
Right.

859
00:28:41,325 --> 00:28:43,785
That was the thing
that generation, I, I

860
00:28:43,785 --> 00:28:45,885
know I, I remember this
situation quite well.

861
00:28:46,155 --> 00:28:46,215
Yeah.

862
00:28:46,335 --> 00:28:48,825
Um, because we had a, we,
we had a lot of talks about,

863
00:28:48,825 --> 00:28:50,295
we were like, we pull up in
the country and we're like.

864
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:52,330
How do we even begin
to process this, right?

865
00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:56,140
That just happened and now we
have to accept that like this is

866
00:28:56,140 --> 00:28:57,160
the environment that we work in.

867
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,230
Now this is part of
the culture, right?

868
00:28:59,230 --> 00:29:00,010
It's the beginning of the end.

869
00:29:00,010 --> 00:29:00,280
Yeah.

870
00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:02,620
So as soon as people had
mobile phones at work, like

871
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:04,210
that was the, that was the
end of anybody doing work.

872
00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:04,900
Oh my gosh.

873
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,540
And, and, and I say that to
say like, you could basically

874
00:29:07,540 --> 00:29:10,690
be messing around on your
phone the entire time and

875
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,900
kind of be present now, let's
stick with that for a very

876
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:17,110
long time, like thousands
of years just being present.

877
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,270
Was a massive part of
your contribution to work.

878
00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:21,560
That's it right here.

879
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:22,160
Here's a good example.

880
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,010
If I wasn't that good at
my job, right, but I showed

881
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:26,990
up before everybody and
I left after everybody.

882
00:29:26,995 --> 00:29:27,205
Yeah.

883
00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:29,270
And I was, presence
went a long way.

884
00:29:29,420 --> 00:29:32,420
I was wildly uh, charismatic
with everybody, et cetera.

885
00:29:32,810 --> 00:29:34,920
I could probably keep a
job for a fairly long time.

886
00:29:35,865 --> 00:29:38,895
Right now, take those
things off the table

887
00:29:39,045 --> 00:29:40,575
if no one has any idea.

888
00:29:40,695 --> 00:29:43,365
When I show up for work
and no one, actually, I,

889
00:29:43,370 --> 00:29:45,490
I can't charm anybody or
tell 'em how nice I am.

890
00:29:45,490 --> 00:29:45,690
Right.

891
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,530
Your emojis are mechanism I have

892
00:29:48,105 --> 00:29:49,425
Charismatic is the
next person output.

893
00:29:49,575 --> 00:29:49,785
Yeah.

894
00:29:49,995 --> 00:29:50,685
Yeah, exactly.

895
00:29:50,685 --> 00:29:50,895
Right.

896
00:29:50,895 --> 00:29:52,665
Like, like all of a sudden
we're all laid bare.

897
00:29:52,725 --> 00:29:52,995
Yeah.

898
00:29:53,205 --> 00:29:55,610
And so I've had this
thesis that says that

899
00:29:55,630 --> 00:29:58,035
remote work has amplified.

900
00:29:58,110 --> 00:30:01,379
Best and the worst if you
were bad at what you do.

901
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:01,679
Yeah.

902
00:30:01,679 --> 00:30:03,870
Remote work has shown
a spotlight on it.

903
00:30:03,959 --> 00:30:04,229
Okay.

904
00:30:04,229 --> 00:30:04,290
Yeah.

905
00:30:04,290 --> 00:30:07,139
Again, it's managed properly and
if you're good at what you do,

906
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,479
remote work just worked like it.

907
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,600
It just worked because you
were the kind of person

908
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,610
that was already working
on your own schedule.

909
00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:15,240
Right?

910
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,610
You weren't showing up for
work and being a top performer

911
00:30:17,639 --> 00:30:18,780
'cause your boss told you to.

912
00:30:18,929 --> 00:30:19,080
Yeah.

913
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,010
You are gonna do that anyway.

914
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:21,240
That's why you're
a top performer.

915
00:30:21,495 --> 00:30:24,255
So what, what's happened
here@startups.com over the

916
00:30:24,255 --> 00:30:26,835
years since, uh, since COVID
and, you know, full-time

917
00:30:26,835 --> 00:30:30,195
remote work, is we've shed
a whole bunch of people and

918
00:30:30,195 --> 00:30:31,215
we've added other people.

919
00:30:31,695 --> 00:30:34,665
But if you look at the
balance of who's here, they're

920
00:30:34,665 --> 00:30:35,625
all the autonomous people.

921
00:30:36,150 --> 00:30:38,580
Hence when the person asked in
the interview, you know about

922
00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:41,970
compensation, I said, the top
compensation item is autonomy.

923
00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:45,120
Like we wanna give you a
freakish amount of autonomy

924
00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:48,000
because if you need to be
managed at this company, you're

925
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,080
not gonna last very long here.

926
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:49,380
Yeah.

927
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,630
Which was music to
most people's ears.

928
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:53,610
The problem is it's
music to good people

929
00:30:53,610 --> 00:30:54,660
and bad people's ears.

930
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,090
Good people are like,
this is how I wanna work,

931
00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:57,990
and the bad people are

932
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:59,250
like, this is how I wanna work.

933
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:59,610
Yeah.

934
00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,190
Unfortunately, it's a, it's a
siren song for, for everyone.

935
00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:04,350
Not just the, not,
not just the capable.

936
00:31:05,010 --> 00:31:07,920
There was a, there was a loose
thought forming here around like

937
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,310
the idea of going back to like,
you know, the, the charismatic

938
00:31:11,460 --> 00:31:13,470
show up early, stay late person.

939
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:18,330
I would argue that back then
that person actually had a

940
00:31:18,330 --> 00:31:22,770
value based on just those
things in an environment where

941
00:31:22,770 --> 00:31:24,390
people were forced to come in.

942
00:31:24,390 --> 00:31:27,000
Having the person who showed
up early, stayed late.

943
00:31:27,689 --> 00:31:30,000
Help to set the goalpost
for what everybody

944
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:30,629
else should be doing.

945
00:31:30,629 --> 00:31:30,870
Right.

946
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:32,820
They were a bit of a, they
were a bit of a compass, right?

947
00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:34,409
It sort of defined like,
okay, maybe this is what

948
00:31:34,409 --> 00:31:35,070
we're supposed to be doing.

949
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:35,850
Sure.

950
00:31:35,939 --> 00:31:39,899
The charisma piece helped
to keep people satisfied

951
00:31:39,899 --> 00:31:41,040
enough to keep showing up.

952
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:41,159
Right?

953
00:31:41,159 --> 00:31:41,814
Because you know it.

954
00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:44,160
As much as like, I
don't know that being in

955
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,360
office benefited anybody.

956
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,830
There were definitely
downsides to it.

957
00:31:46,890 --> 00:31:48,240
There were definitely
downsides, and you can

958
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,560
definitely have toxic culture.

959
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,330
You could, if you don't have
somebody charismatic in the

960
00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:54,000
room, it can become a really
shitty room really quick,

961
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,950
and it can become really
shitty output really quick.

962
00:31:56,430 --> 00:31:58,860
And so I think those,
there, there was some sense

963
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:02,520
of, of actual value, not
necessarily that it was a,

964
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,770
a, some sort of big benefit,
but it limited some of the

965
00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:06,840
downsides of in-office culture.

966
00:32:07,230 --> 00:32:07,800
But.

967
00:32:08,030 --> 00:32:12,830
I think that went away entirely
in, in remote for the most part.

968
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:15,170
I think one of the things that,
you know, we touched on, but we

969
00:32:15,170 --> 00:32:18,650
haven't explored too much, is
for a certain number of people,

970
00:32:18,890 --> 00:32:21,020
the social aspect of work Yeah.

971
00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:22,310
Was a massive negative.

972
00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:22,880
Yeah.

973
00:32:23,325 --> 00:32:25,995
It's interesting 'cause uh,
when I talk to founders who, you

974
00:32:25,995 --> 00:32:29,055
know, would otherwise seem like,
like they're extroverts, a lot

975
00:32:29,055 --> 00:32:30,195
of 'em say, actually I'm not.

976
00:32:30,195 --> 00:32:32,835
I'm more of an introvert and
like being able to like, kinda

977
00:32:32,835 --> 00:32:36,675
like hide in my hole for a
while is kind of what I prefer.

978
00:32:37,065 --> 00:32:39,225
And so, uh, for a lot
of founders let's, you

979
00:32:39,225 --> 00:32:39,915
know, talk about founders.

980
00:32:40,155 --> 00:32:42,945
A lot of founders were forced to
be the hype man, so to speak in

981
00:32:42,945 --> 00:32:45,645
a company when all they wanted
to do was the work person just

982
00:32:45,645 --> 00:32:46,845
show up and get their job done.

983
00:32:46,895 --> 00:32:48,875
I am a developer at heart
that just happened to

984
00:32:48,875 --> 00:32:50,585
become a, a, a founder.

985
00:32:50,585 --> 00:32:50,885
Right.

986
00:32:50,885 --> 00:32:51,440
And I just, yeah.

987
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,014
And I'm supposed to giving
speeches, prefer to stay.

988
00:32:53,014 --> 00:32:53,024
Yeah.

989
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:54,000
Yeah.

990
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,690
Yeah, I get that.

991
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,040
Uh, but within that, think
of how many folks wanted to

992
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,250
work at the company, enjoyed
the work, but ha the the

993
00:33:02,250 --> 00:33:03,960
culture was foisted upon them.

994
00:33:04,140 --> 00:33:04,470
Yeah.

995
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,630
And it was something that
like, they, they were like,

996
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:07,950
like forced to fit into.

997
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:08,460
Yep.

998
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:10,200
And now all of a sudden you're
like, Hey, look, you don't

999
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,040
have to deal with any of that.

1000
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:11,655
Like, be who you're gonna be.

1001
00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:13,180
We don't care.

1002
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,250
Just, you know, push the
work under the door when

1003
00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:15,790
you're done with it.

1004
00:33:16,150 --> 00:33:18,070
Like best thing ever for them.

1005
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,080
Now you could be an
employer right now and

1006
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,820
say, those are exactly the
people that I don't want.

1007
00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:22,180
Right.

1008
00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:24,370
You know, those people that,
that, that aren't part of

1009
00:33:24,370 --> 00:33:25,875
the team, aren't part of
like the, the, the mission.

1010
00:33:25,875 --> 00:33:26,035
Yeah.

1011
00:33:27,179 --> 00:33:27,810
Okay, fair enough.

1012
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:28,530
I get that.

1013
00:33:28,770 --> 00:33:29,070
Right.

1014
00:33:29,399 --> 00:33:31,949
All I'm trying to say is
many of us had many of

1015
00:33:31,949 --> 00:33:35,490
those people on our staffs
and those people never had

1016
00:33:35,490 --> 00:33:37,260
the opportunity to opt out.

1017
00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:37,320
Yeah.

1018
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:38,490
And now they do.

1019
00:33:39,179 --> 00:33:41,129
And, and you know
what, I'm fine with it.

1020
00:33:41,310 --> 00:33:42,330
Like we do a company event.

1021
00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:42,750
You show up.

1022
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:42,959
Cool.

1023
00:33:42,959 --> 00:33:44,429
If you don't show
up, I'm also cool.

1024
00:33:44,550 --> 00:33:44,980
Oh, side note.

1025
00:33:46,050 --> 00:33:47,160
I hated doing company events.

1026
00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:48,480
I hated company events.

1027
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,160
Now, now I didn't
hate my company.

1028
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:50,730
Okay.

1029
00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:53,010
Let me just be, be clear that
I love people I worked with.

1030
00:33:53,490 --> 00:33:55,560
When I say I hated doing
company events, w what I

1031
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,280
hated about it was feeling
like I forced everyone else

1032
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,570
to come to the company event.

1033
00:34:01,230 --> 00:34:01,470
Right.

1034
00:34:01,770 --> 00:34:03,810
A also funny side note,
just 'cause I, I, I think

1035
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:05,430
maybe some people, the
audience can appreciate this.

1036
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,890
Once a year at the Christmas
party, I think I've told you

1037
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:10,560
this before, we get a chance
to meet everybody's spouse,

1038
00:34:10,830 --> 00:34:12,960
Uhhuh, and, and I would joke
to people from time to time,

1039
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,990
you've heard me say this before,
I said, prepare your spouse

1040
00:34:16,409 --> 00:34:20,040
because within the first three
seconds of me shaking hands

1041
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,710
with your spouse, I'll know
exactly what you say about me

1042
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:25,409
at all times because I'll, I'll
know the look in their eyes.

1043
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:25,770
Yes.

1044
00:34:26,905 --> 00:34:29,880
When they, when they meet the
villain of their, uh, uhhuh of,

1045
00:34:29,885 --> 00:34:31,435
of their spouse's, uh, life.

1046
00:34:31,675 --> 00:34:34,435
Uh, I know exactly what, what
that looks like and I joked

1047
00:34:34,435 --> 00:34:37,435
about that, but like, it's all,
well, it is true, but like, I

1048
00:34:37,435 --> 00:34:40,135
hated like these company parties
where everybody felt like it

1049
00:34:40,135 --> 00:34:41,275
was an eighth grade dance.

1050
00:34:41,275 --> 00:34:43,465
They were forced to come to,
and we had great parties.

1051
00:34:43,495 --> 00:34:45,085
I mean, to be fair, like
these, these weren't

1052
00:34:45,085 --> 00:34:46,195
like stinkers of parties.

1053
00:34:46,284 --> 00:34:46,375
Yeah.

1054
00:34:47,415 --> 00:34:50,505
It always felt like
50% of people really

1055
00:34:50,505 --> 00:34:53,085
wanted to be there, 10%
couldn't wait to be there.

1056
00:34:53,475 --> 00:34:55,125
And the other were like,
I'd literally rather

1057
00:34:55,125 --> 00:34:55,844
be doing anything else.

1058
00:34:55,844 --> 00:34:57,105
Anything's kind of like how
you feel at most weddings.

1059
00:34:57,435 --> 00:34:58,035
Yeah, that's the thing.

1060
00:34:58,035 --> 00:35:00,195
I mean, it can always
feel a little forced.

1061
00:35:00,195 --> 00:35:02,025
I mean if, if you feel like
you have to be anywhere,

1062
00:35:02,475 --> 00:35:03,285
even if it's somewhere.

1063
00:35:03,285 --> 00:35:05,385
'cause I think there is, there
is that even if it's somewhere

1064
00:35:05,385 --> 00:35:08,355
I want to be otherwise, and
I'm told I have to be there.

1065
00:35:08,805 --> 00:35:10,995
I automatically wanna be
there less now, right?

1066
00:35:10,995 --> 00:35:12,315
Like, you know,
like, yeah, exactly.

1067
00:35:12,315 --> 00:35:15,105
You have to go do this thing
now and like, I was gonna

1068
00:35:15,105 --> 00:35:16,785
do it anyways, but now that
you told me I have to, I

1069
00:35:16,785 --> 00:35:17,835
kind of wanna do it less.

1070
00:35:17,865 --> 00:35:18,105
Right?

1071
00:35:18,105 --> 00:35:19,485
That's just, it's nearly
every wedding I've

1072
00:35:19,485 --> 00:35:21,675
ever been, uh, invited
to unless I was in the

1073
00:35:21,675 --> 00:35:22,455
wedding, or even then.

1074
00:35:22,845 --> 00:35:24,675
It's not that I'm not happy
for the person or whatever,

1075
00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:26,175
most times I don't even
know who the person is.

1076
00:35:26,205 --> 00:35:27,825
'cause like my wife's,
you know, family or

1077
00:35:27,855 --> 00:35:28,480
something like that, right?

1078
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:30,345
And I'm like, why
am I here again?

1079
00:35:30,675 --> 00:35:32,895
And, and I guess what I'm
saying is like, I felt

1080
00:35:32,895 --> 00:35:35,775
like we were pushing a
marshmallow through a keyhole.

1081
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:38,680
Like we were trying to
like force this idea that

1082
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,150
everybody's, everyone
wants to have fun, right?

1083
00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:40,720
Yeah.

1084
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,840
Like 20% of you wanna have fun,
the rest of us would rather be

1085
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,070
doing literally anything else.

1086
00:35:45,370 --> 00:35:48,490
And so some of those events,
uh, for me felt forced as

1087
00:35:48,490 --> 00:35:51,550
the person organizing them,
it made it even worse.

1088
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,140
And I think back to like.

1089
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:56,250
20 to 30 years worth of like
Christmas parties, et cetera.

1090
00:35:56,580 --> 00:35:59,040
I always had a good time
because I was generally

1091
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,180
hiring all of my friends.

1092
00:36:00,810 --> 00:36:00,960
Right.

1093
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,530
So like for me it was great, but
I'm also like fairly self-aware

1094
00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:06,510
enough to be able to look
around the room and be like,

1095
00:36:06,510 --> 00:36:08,940
you know, not everybody else
is feeling the same way I am.

1096
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:09,420
Right.

1097
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:11,700
And not everybody's a spouse is
feeling the same way, or, yeah.

1098
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:12,660
And so I, yeah.

1099
00:36:12,665 --> 00:36:13,350
Yeah, it's tough.

1100
00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:15,630
I think, again, anytime you
force something and then I

1101
00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:17,850
think it puts you in this
other conundrum, which is

1102
00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:19,050
then, okay, so then do we.

1103
00:36:19,545 --> 00:36:21,884
If we see that only a certain
number of people want to

1104
00:36:22,035 --> 00:36:25,185
partake in this type of event,
do we try to create another

1105
00:36:25,185 --> 00:36:28,484
event for the other camp and
the other, and, and does that

1106
00:36:28,484 --> 00:36:30,555
actually build team culture?

1107
00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:34,964
Or does that just draw
stronger lines of demarcation

1108
00:36:34,964 --> 00:36:36,255
that that separates them?

1109
00:36:36,255 --> 00:36:39,495
And it just becomes really
complex and I think part of me

1110
00:36:39,495 --> 00:36:43,545
is relieved that that's largely
gone away in going back to like

1111
00:36:43,545 --> 00:36:44,505
the whole overhead thing, right?

1112
00:36:44,505 --> 00:36:45,525
These are things we just
have to think about.

1113
00:36:46,365 --> 00:36:49,545
I haven't thought about planning
a work Christmas party in what?

1114
00:36:49,905 --> 00:36:50,475
Eight years.

1115
00:36:50,775 --> 00:36:51,285
Seven, eight years.

1116
00:36:51,315 --> 00:36:54,195
I love Christmas parties with
all the people that I actually

1117
00:36:54,195 --> 00:36:55,005
would normally hang out with.

1118
00:36:55,275 --> 00:36:55,545
Right.

1119
00:36:55,550 --> 00:36:57,705
And, and, and by the way, if,
if, if a bunch of those people

1120
00:36:57,705 --> 00:36:59,145
I happen to work with as well.

1121
00:36:59,415 --> 00:36:59,865
Awesome.

1122
00:36:59,865 --> 00:36:59,925
Yeah.

1123
00:37:00,075 --> 00:37:02,235
The fact that every year I don't
have to drag a bunch of people

1124
00:37:02,235 --> 00:37:03,555
who I know don't wanna be there.

1125
00:37:03,585 --> 00:37:03,795
Yeah.

1126
00:37:03,795 --> 00:37:05,775
Out to an event and then
try to make small talk.

1127
00:37:05,780 --> 00:37:07,125
It it like awkwardly.

1128
00:37:07,275 --> 00:37:07,365
Yeah.

1129
00:37:07,395 --> 00:37:09,675
Um, that I know makes them as
uncomfortable as it does for me.

1130
00:37:09,945 --> 00:37:11,355
I don't miss any of that now.

1131
00:37:11,415 --> 00:37:13,185
Now that has nothing to do
with saying, Hey, let's go

1132
00:37:13,185 --> 00:37:14,295
remote versus otherwise.

1133
00:37:14,595 --> 00:37:17,205
I'm saying that for our
culture, uh, you know,

1134
00:37:17,205 --> 00:37:18,525
as far as our mentality.

1135
00:37:18,765 --> 00:37:20,355
And the folks that work
here at the stage of our

1136
00:37:20,355 --> 00:37:21,675
business remote works.

1137
00:37:21,675 --> 00:37:22,095
Great.

1138
00:37:22,455 --> 00:37:25,575
Now that said, I think for a
lot of people, like founders

1139
00:37:25,575 --> 00:37:27,675
come to me like, ah, well you're
remote, you know, remote's bad,

1140
00:37:27,675 --> 00:37:29,115
and you know, in office is good.

1141
00:37:29,565 --> 00:37:32,505
And my answer is yes,
if that's what you need.

1142
00:37:33,390 --> 00:37:34,620
But Ryan, here's what I think.

1143
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:38,520
I think that for most founders,
it's not about which one

1144
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,280
is better, it's about which
one makes sense for you.

1145
00:37:41,490 --> 00:37:43,110
There's pros and cons to both.

1146
00:37:43,110 --> 00:37:44,430
We've done both, right?

1147
00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:47,340
There's a time and a place for
either, but I think for most

1148
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:50,310
startups when they're, they're
getting into this and they're

1149
00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:52,650
so hung up on saying, oh, this
one's better, this one's better.

1150
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:53,520
Try 'em both.

1151
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:57,090
Do what we do, do hybrid, do
a few days in, a few days out.

1152
00:37:57,585 --> 00:37:58,725
See which one you like better.

1153
00:37:58,870 --> 00:38:02,625
If, if one of them feels more
compatible, great, but realize

1154
00:38:02,805 --> 00:38:06,944
that either one has a massive
set of trade-offs, and that's

1155
00:38:06,944 --> 00:38:10,904
fine, but you have to go all
in in the end on which path

1156
00:38:10,904 --> 00:38:13,335
you think makes sense, not
just for you, but for every

1157
00:38:13,335 --> 00:38:14,325
single person in the company.

1158
00:38:14,384 --> 00:38:15,805
And that is not an
easy thing to do.

1159
00:38:16,980 --> 00:38:18,840
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1160
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:22,080
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1161
00:38:22,140 --> 00:38:25,080
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1162
00:38:25,290 --> 00:38:27,630
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1163
00:38:27,630 --> 00:38:30,060
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1164
00:38:30,210 --> 00:38:34,860
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1165
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:35,880
to see if it's for you.

1166
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:37,170
Could be just the
thing you need.

1167
00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:38,370
I hope to see you inside.