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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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If you like what we do here,
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To find out about our certification
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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

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com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Today on Live Free Ride Free,
I've got Lainey Liberty.

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Lainey has lived, is still living with
her son Miro an extraordinary life.

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She hit the road some years ago with
him as a child, if you like, world

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homeschooling and never stopped.

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Has now built a whole sort of universe
of Mental health services for teens

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and tweens working with the brain,
working with the endocrine system,

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working with all of these things, and
has turned this grand adventure into

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something really of benefit to everybody,
including a lot of teens and tweens

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back in the USA, where she started from.

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So joining me from Guanajuato in Mexico.

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Very colorful on the other end
of my zoom is Lainey Liberty.

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Lainey, thanks for coming on.

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Tell us why the bleep
did you do what you did?

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Lainie Libeti: Yikes.

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I mean, that's such a great way
to open up this conversation.

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Why did I do what I did?

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I suppose, I mean, there were like all
these external reasons why we Took the

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leap into this lifestyle, but there
are also these internal ones and like,

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I'll, I'll sort of talk a little bit
about both of those worlds throughout

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our conversation, because they're both
really, really important to this story

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and the story of supporting others.

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I guess from a real, you know,
sort of narrative perspective,

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2008, I'm living in California.

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I'm a single parent to a nine, nine year
old child at that time and always wanted

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to be a mom always, you know, that was
the dream, you know, to be a parent.

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And I did everything that I could.

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To provide, you know, a wonderful
life for my child, I worked in

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advertising for almost 18 years and
the last eight of those years I owned

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my own agency and I was overworked.

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I was making great money.

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I was overworked.

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I spent most of my time working, but
in my mind it was so I could provide.

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Everything for my child for my family.

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I was the provider and to me,
some things were out of whack

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because my son would always say
to me, Mom, you're always working.

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You never spend any time with me
and the heartbreak from those.

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Words were deep and so I didn't have
this internal balance of why I was

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doing what I was doing and kind of
being able to be present in my own life.

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And in 2008, the economy crashed.

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So that was 1 of the 1st external reason.

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Well, the 1st external reason really
was the voice of my child saying.

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You know, you're always working.

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You never spend any time with me.

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But the 2nd was having an
economy of crash in California.

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And my agency was primarily focused
on serving Green Eagle companies

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and nonprofits, and I started
to see them go away 1 by 1 by 1.

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And I knew by the end of 2008, I was not
You know, after I, after I say goodbye

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to my staff for the, the holidays,
I knew I wasn't bringing them back.

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I just couldn't, I didn't have
the, the business to support them.

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And one night late in the office, you
know, my nine year old child in the

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office with me somewhere around 9 PM.

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And I, I just remember stopping
whatever I was working on.

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And I turned to him and I said, Miro, what
do you think if we just got rid of all

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this stuff and went and had an adventure?

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And he was playing a video game at the
time, and I remember he stopped and he

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looked at me and he said, seriously?

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I said, yeah.

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He's like, do I have to go to school?

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And I said, no.

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They said, I'm in.

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And that was really it.

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And that became, we suddenly had a
like a vision purpose, something,

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you know, a reason for all of this.

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And there was, you know, I wasn't
going to mourn the loss of my business.

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I was, It's just going to make
a whole new trajectory for us.

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And when you're living a
conventional life, one year

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adventure sounds tremendous.

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It sounds like a really long time,
like, Oh my gosh, you know, planning

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out a whole year seems initially

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Rupert Isaacson: it was
just going to be a year.

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Lainie Libeti: That's it.

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And we decided to plan.

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Okay, we're here on this continent.

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Let's just head south.

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Let's go.

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You know, we're in L.

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A.,

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California.

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Let's go to Mexico and then head down
through Central America all the way down.

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And end up in Ushuaia which
is the tip of Argentina.

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Let's do that.

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And he's like, yeah, that
sounds like a cool adventure.

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And I figured we could do that in a year.

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So we had a plan.

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We had a direction, but we
really wanted to be able to.

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Make decisions together.

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And we spoke, you know, took us
six months to prepare and plan.

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And the whole thing was
about this partnership.

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This wasn't going to be about me
pulling him or him pushing me one way.

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We were going to do this side by side.

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And that was the thing
that he was really craving.

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He wanted me to spend time with him
and partnership look really different

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to me when we were on the road.

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Like we could create this
thing that we both wanted.

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We both could research.

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We could both deal with the budgets.

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We both could make decisions about
where we were going and when we

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were going and how long we stayed.

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We both could, you know, come
up with What we wanted to do.

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We didn't have those restrictions.

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This was going to be our side by side
journey together and that we agreed

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on way before we left and that became
one of the foundations of our journey

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and much into the work that I do now.

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It was this side by side
journey we call partnership.

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A lot of that.

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Was driven from like the work that
I did in branding and marketing.

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I worked with companies where I'd go
in and help them define their brand

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and do these brand discoveries and
positioning and all these things.

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And I thought, well, one of the
tools that I had in my tool belt was.

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Teaching, sorry, teaching companies how
and facilitating how to really define

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what their core values are by looking at
things that they're, you know, what their

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brand personality is, the services, the,
their relationship to their customers.

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And I decided to use
that tool with my son.

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So.

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Okay, let's just Scott discover and
define what our core values are.

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And that way we didn't have to have rules.

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Core values for the thing
that we're going to guide us.

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So once we define what each individual
core values where we can define what

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our family core values were, and that
allowed us to be free to say yes,

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when things were in alignment and no,
when they were not, it wasn't a rule.

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It was a partnership where we were both.

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Looking out for each other in that way.

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And so a lot of that stuff, the internal
sort of processing and looking at the

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external sort of situations allowed us
to have a guidance system that worked.

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And it required a lot of conversation,
a lot of negotiation, a lot of emotional

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intelligence, a lot of trial and error.

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So that became a good part,
you know, the foundation of our

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travels when we first started out.

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And I do want to mention this
story of our plan sitting out for

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1 year with our project, right?

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Sorry, trajectory to Argentina.

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Well, it's been 16 years, and we still
haven't made it to Argentina, but we

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have been around the world several
times and so many adventures since.

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So I don't know where you
want to take it from there.

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.

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First obvious question.

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There you are, young, single mother
young woman with a child therefore

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quite vulnerable, but heading down into.

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You know, parts of the
world that can be tricky.

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You know, you've got a good head
on your shoulder, so you must

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have been aware of the risks.

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What was your plan and how did
you negotiate those waters?

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That's the first thing.

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And how did you actually
physically travel?

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How were you doing it?

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Did you, were you in a vehicle?

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Were you doing it on buses and trains?

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How did you go?

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But then the, the other question
really is At what point did you decide,

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actually no, this is not possible?

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A year.

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This is a life.

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Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

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Well, let me answer the
last question first.

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Okay.

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Lainie Libeti: And then I'll go
back to the mode of travel and

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and my relationship to fear.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So fast forward, eight and a
half months into our travels.

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One of one of the agreements that
my son and I made before we set out

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was let's say yes to everything.

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Let's just say yes.

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As long as of course the caveat,
it was in alignment with our, our

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core values and it was safe, right?

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Let's just say yes, because I had spent
the first nine years of my son's life

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not saying yes, because I had to work.

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I saw a lot of no's.

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And I remember the day
we were in Guatemala.

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We had rented this house and we decided
we wanted to stay there for a while.

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And I remember very
clearly Miró saying to me.

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Mom, you know, we're supposed
to go home in four months.

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Can't we just do this forever?

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He sort of tricked me.

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But we had this deal and, you know, there
was really no reason to say no there.

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We were really enjoying our life,
and it was eight months in, and

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we were only as far as Guatemala.

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We decided that slow travel was
a little better than fast travel,

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so of course I said yes, yes.

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And so we figured out a
way to make that happen.

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But I do want, so that answers your
question of why it remained sort of

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You know, a lifelong journey versus
the one year that we planned, but going

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back to your question about mode of
travel and our relationship to fear.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, just straight
up security, you know, traveled in

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a lot of dodgy areas myself in the
world, you know, you know, that 90

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percent of the time it's fine, but
occasionally it's not, you know, and yeah,

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Lainie Libeti: yeah.

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I do agree.

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Look, I traveled, I hitchhiked all
over Europe when I was in my twenties.

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Like I, you know, had this
experience of trusting the world.

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And so, you know, when I started
this journey 20 years later

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with my child I knew that.

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The fear is

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it's, it comes from within, but it's not
always, you know, grounded in, in reality.

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Sometimes it is, but there's
also a big difference when

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you're traveling with a child.

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Oh, and to answer your
question, actually going back.

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Yeah, we, we had backpacks and we traveled
on bus and trains and yeah, that's it.

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We didn't have a vehicle.

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So we decided where we wanted to go.

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We looked at the, you know, maps and said,
okay, and this bus will go to this town.

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Do we want to go here?

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Okay, let's research it.

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Let's do it.

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And thank God the internet, when
I traveled, you know, now it's.

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40 years ago, when I was in Europe or 35
years ago, when I was in Europe, like,

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there was no Internet, but at least
there was Internet when my son and I set

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out and there was a lot of information.

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We had our laptops and such,
but fear was one of those huge.

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Sort of the 1st year, it was 1 of those
things that was a big part of my journey.

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It was my relationship to fear.

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It was really my relationship
to making sure that that.

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We felt safe and really because

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Rupert Isaacson: you had
to keep him safe, right?

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I mean, yeah, it's one thing to
keep yourself safe But it's a whole

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other thing to keep a kid safe.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Lainie Libeti: Well, I
mean, you know that if

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Rupert Isaacson: you fail
That's the end of him, right?

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So and

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Lainie Libeti: that's it and that's it.

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But what we found Well, first of all, you
know, I didn't do the same things I did

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when I was in my twenties hitchhiking.

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I didn't go to bars.

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I didn't like, like, it wasn't
the same sort of journey.

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Like, we didn't go out late at night.

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You know, we, we researched and talk
to people and read up on places.

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We were going to make sure that
it, it felt fairly secure, but.

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We received before we left on our
journey, we received a lot of fear based

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messaging from our friends and family.

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Like, you need to

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get

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Lainie Libeti: insurance like
that whole sort of train of

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thought, which was kind of crazy.

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That didn't make sense to me.

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And people were afraid for
us because look, I'm blonde

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and you're a single woman.

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And I know that's what
you were alluding to.

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And you have a child with you.

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What if somebody's, you know, grabs you.

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But what we found was each country
we went to is filled with people.

00:14:47.950 --> 00:14:52.740
And parents and children and parents
and children, we'd meet them at

00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:54.460
parks and they just wanted it.

00:14:54.680 --> 00:14:59.750
I'd sit before I spoke any Spanish
on benches next to the mothers

00:14:59.790 --> 00:15:01.090
watching their children play.

00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:03.490
And we'd look at each
other and giggle and point.

00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:06.090
And that was the basis
of our communication.

00:15:06.090 --> 00:15:08.100
But I never felt threatened.

00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:10.599
I felt like I was threatened.

00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:15.370
You know, I was surrounded by people
like me, they just spoke different

00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:20.630
languages and had different skin colors
and different traditions and cultures.

00:15:20.630 --> 00:15:21.580
And that's okay.

00:15:21.870 --> 00:15:24.490
How lovely, how absolutely lovely.

00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:30.930
So I didn't feel that
kind of, you know, fear.

00:15:31.040 --> 00:15:34.895
I mean, I could tell you a
very Very funny, fierce story.

00:15:34.895 --> 00:15:35.885
If you want to hear it,

00:15:37.045 --> 00:15:37.365
Rupert Isaacson: tell me

00:15:37.995 --> 00:15:40.735
Lainie Libeti: we were, that was my dog.

00:15:41.475 --> 00:15:43.655
We were a city called Cartago.

00:15:44.705 --> 00:15:50.955
I wanted to go to the coffee region
when we were in Costa Rica and

00:15:51.305 --> 00:15:53.195
some people had said, don't go.

00:15:53.195 --> 00:15:54.535
It's scary there.

00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:59.800
You know, it's dangerous, you know,
it could be dangerous in certain

00:15:59.800 --> 00:16:01.460
areas, just as any place could be.

00:16:01.490 --> 00:16:02.480
And I was like, okay.

00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:09.100
And this was still within the first six
months or seven months of our travel, or

00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:13.450
maybe it was, maybe it was just after,
no, I think it was just after Guatemala.

00:16:13.450 --> 00:16:15.500
So it was maybe nine months, 10 months in.

00:16:15.750 --> 00:16:19.200
So I'm still kind of in
this, like, there's fear.

00:16:19.745 --> 00:16:21.805
You know, I don't speak the language yet.

00:16:21.815 --> 00:16:24.575
You know, my Spanish is
nothing at this point.

00:16:25.185 --> 00:16:29.455
And I remember, okay, but I want to
go to Cartago and Miró was up for the,

00:16:29.645 --> 00:16:34.555
the journey and I wanted to see the
coffee region and we get there, we

00:16:34.555 --> 00:16:36.305
get there somewhere in the evening.

00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:40.500
And we're looking for our hostel or hotel.

00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:44.790
I remember where we were staying at
the time and we're trying to follow

00:16:44.790 --> 00:16:47.650
this map to find the location.

00:16:47.650 --> 00:16:52.420
And it's now getting dark and the map.

00:16:52.805 --> 00:16:58.215
Said, go down this 1 street and it
was very, very narrow and it was in

00:16:58.215 --> 00:17:03.255
between these 2 buildings kind of
alley like, and I remember being kind

00:17:03.255 --> 00:17:09.255
of, you know, on alert, really on
alert and, you know, hyper vigilant

00:17:09.255 --> 00:17:12.415
at this point, you know, not really.

00:17:12.875 --> 00:17:17.745
Kind of feeling secure for some
reason, just because these people

00:17:17.745 --> 00:17:20.315
said, Oh, Cartago scary place.

00:17:21.075 --> 00:17:26.905
And I remember coming towards us at
the end of the kind of alley or street.

00:17:27.085 --> 00:17:29.665
Here comes a man walking towards us.

00:17:30.215 --> 00:17:34.745
And immediately I turned to Miro
and I said, Miro, give me your hand.

00:17:34.955 --> 00:17:36.095
And he goes, why?

00:17:36.525 --> 00:17:39.175
And I said, that man has big pants.

00:17:40.545 --> 00:17:43.265
And I don't even know
what the hell that means.

00:17:43.305 --> 00:17:45.175
I don't know why that freaked me out.

00:17:45.205 --> 00:17:46.635
I don't know what the fear was.

00:17:46.725 --> 00:17:47.905
He passed us.

00:17:47.935 --> 00:17:52.635
We started cracking up and we just
started talking about what fear is.

00:17:52.635 --> 00:17:55.665
You know, we got to finally
found our hotel and got to our

00:17:55.665 --> 00:18:00.285
room and, you know, we had this
conversation, but there was like this.

00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:11.490
Exhale from me when I realized how
this fear was making me like very

00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:18.720
hypervigilant, very like non, just
thinking there's, there's corn, like

00:18:18.760 --> 00:18:20.670
danger at the turn of the corner.

00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:25.050
And a lot of that hypervigilance, by
the way, it comes from my own, you

00:18:25.050 --> 00:18:28.960
know, growing up and my own healing
and all of that stuff, somebody who

00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:33.075
grew up in a household that You know,
I was always yelled at every single

00:18:33.075 --> 00:18:37.575
day, like the, the screaming and, you
know, that, that messed with my nervous

00:18:37.575 --> 00:18:41.905
system and, and I remain hypervigilant
for much of my early adult life.

00:18:42.215 --> 00:18:50.235
So that kind of accessing that memory,
you know, maybe it kept us safe, but

00:18:50.235 --> 00:18:54.245
it also like that experience of the
ridiculousness of being afraid of

00:18:54.245 --> 00:19:00.420
a man's big pants and thinking that
my son, you know, Give me your hand.

00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:06.070
Like, like, like this whole
thing was kind of a story.

00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:09.680
Rupert Isaacson: Natural reactions.

00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:11.690
I mean, yeah, that

00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:14.840
is yes.

00:19:14.850 --> 00:19:18.120
And I mean, you know, obviously I've
been all over the world and traveled

00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:20.690
in dangerous places and this and that.

00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:24.090
But what I do know is
that the dangers are real.

00:19:24.600 --> 00:19:26.190
It's a little bit like when
you're walking in the bush.

00:19:26.190 --> 00:19:28.340
I mean, there are lines and an
elephant out there and they're just,

00:19:28.340 --> 00:19:29.410
oh, and you kind of need to know.

00:19:30.260 --> 00:19:34.780
If you don't know the area, then you
kind of want a guide, you know, and

00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:37.890
as you say, you take local advice and
all of that, but nonetheless, a big,

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.320
big leap to do something like that.

00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:44.830
And was, did you, the other, the other
thing, of course, is when you travel

00:19:44.830 --> 00:19:48.260
like that in developing countries,
sometimes you get sick, right?

00:19:48.260 --> 00:19:50.960
Sometimes you go down with a stomach
bug or something like that that can

00:19:50.970 --> 00:19:53.470
knock you out for quite a few days.

00:19:54.020 --> 00:19:54.930
Did that ever happen?

00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.840
And then you're sort of having to
tell Miro, okay, here's what you do.

00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:01.230
This is where to go buy food.

00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:03.430
This is, you know, cause
you just can't move.

00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:04.540
Were you lucky with that?

00:20:04.540 --> 00:20:07.780
Were you just cast iron stomach and
nothing like that ever happened?

00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:11.280
Lainie Libeti: Surprisingly,
that didn't happen to me.

00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:17.900
I do remember Miro getting
struck with some bug and I

00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:19.300
don't remember what country.

00:20:19.550 --> 00:20:25.520
I think it might have been Ecuador or
Columbia, but I do remember me taking care

00:20:25.520 --> 00:20:32.630
of him and taking him to, they, they have
wonderful clinics and, and like doctors.

00:20:33.185 --> 00:20:37.895
Attached to pharmacies, you know,
and it's, I mean, healthcare is

00:20:37.915 --> 00:20:43.055
really affordable for those sorts
of things in these countries, but

00:20:43.085 --> 00:20:46.695
I'm nothing like that ever happened
to me as far as I can remember.

00:20:47.355 --> 00:20:50.695
I, I, you look, I've scanned 16 years.

00:20:52.285 --> 00:20:54.125
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, in
all my years of travel, it's only

00:20:54.125 --> 00:20:55.825
happened to me once or twice, but yeah.

00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.120
Once in India, you know, but it
sure can happen if it happens.

00:21:00.550 --> 00:21:02.030
It can happen, sure.

00:21:02.300 --> 00:21:04.110
Rupert Isaacson: And then, you know,
if you're responsible for a kid.

00:21:04.110 --> 00:21:06.550
I guess what I'm doing is I'm
just trying to answer all the

00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:12.230
questions which would come up in the
mind of anyone listening because what

00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:14.360
you did is something I would totally do.

00:21:14.890 --> 00:21:19.460
But I would also go through all of
that trepidation and I would expect to

00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:21.580
have to answer all of those questions.

00:21:21.830 --> 00:21:22.420
Because we

00:21:22.710 --> 00:21:24.000
Lainie Libeti: had an emergency plan.

00:21:24.030 --> 00:21:24.740
I mean, we did.

00:21:25.030 --> 00:21:30.440
We had, you know, he knew that
he knew where our passports were.

00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:31.840
He knew our bank card.

00:21:31.870 --> 00:21:33.860
He had full access to our bank card.

00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:35.450
It was our money.

00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:38.190
He had emergency numbers.

00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:42.650
He knew we always knew where the consulate
was in each new country, especially

00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:44.640
when he was younger, much younger.

00:21:45.410 --> 00:21:49.720
We did take those sorts
of emergency precautions.

00:21:50.035 --> 00:21:52.745
You know, should something happen to me?

00:21:53.275 --> 00:21:54.775
He knew what to do.

00:21:54.775 --> 00:21:55.715
There was a plan.

00:21:55.735 --> 00:22:00.325
He knew to call one of my parents
and he knew to get to a consulate.

00:22:00.325 --> 00:22:05.535
He knew to, you know, ask for police or
whatever, but none of that ever happened.

00:22:07.625 --> 00:22:08.115
Rupert Isaacson: So.

00:22:08.715 --> 00:22:12.345
While you're on the road I presume the
first year you were probably, you probably

00:22:12.345 --> 00:22:15.455
just set some money aside and you were
living off those savings or whatever.

00:22:15.455 --> 00:22:19.445
Were you also, but I know because I
followed your story a little bit at the

00:22:19.445 --> 00:22:23.025
beginning, I know that you were also
working and freelancing as you went.

00:22:23.055 --> 00:22:23.145
What?

00:22:24.600 --> 00:22:25.410
Tell me about that.

00:22:25.420 --> 00:22:28.400
Like at what point did you realize,
you know, actually I can make

00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:29.800
a living on the road like this.

00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:31.540
I could, I can live this way.

00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:33.800
This is, I can economically support this.

00:22:34.010 --> 00:22:37.500
That's interesting because I think for
a lot of people, it's natural to think,

00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:40.720
well, you're either at home working or
you're on vacation or you're traveling.

00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:44.460
If you're traveling, you've
made the money to go and travel.

00:22:44.610 --> 00:22:47.100
And then at a certain point you'll
need to go home and refill the coffers.

00:22:47.100 --> 00:22:50.970
And so, so tell me how that began to
happen where you started to realize, Oh,

00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:52.550
this actually could be my livelihood.

00:22:53.905 --> 00:22:58.515
Lainie Libeti: Well, I told you this, this
story of eight months into the travels

00:22:58.525 --> 00:23:00.585
when Miro said, can we do this forever?

00:23:00.635 --> 00:23:04.475
That's when I had to look at two very
important aspects of our journey.

00:23:04.755 --> 00:23:06.535
I figured one year of travel.

00:23:06.545 --> 00:23:07.805
We had savings.

00:23:07.805 --> 00:23:08.575
We were fine.

00:23:08.575 --> 00:23:09.725
We were on a budget.

00:23:10.765 --> 00:23:15.705
The budget was bigger than, you
know, then somebody who was no living

00:23:15.705 --> 00:23:20.945
nomadically because I wanted us to
be able to go do things and have,

00:23:21.335 --> 00:23:26.705
you know, go zip lining and do some
You know, really fun adventure stuff.

00:23:27.165 --> 00:23:30.775
The other thing I had to
look at was, was education.

00:23:30.775 --> 00:23:34.235
And we could talk about that afterwards
if you want, but I knew if you're of

00:23:34.285 --> 00:23:37.175
travel, that would be educational enough.

00:23:37.185 --> 00:23:38.185
I just knew that.

00:23:38.605 --> 00:23:44.295
So when we decided eight months
in to actually continue it, I had

00:23:44.305 --> 00:23:47.115
to then start freelancing again.

00:23:47.115 --> 00:23:49.085
And I, from eight months.

00:23:49.915 --> 00:23:53.905
It took me about four months
to build up my clientele again.

00:23:53.915 --> 00:23:58.945
So I'd have work and I could work on
the road and do, you know, I, I just,

00:23:58.945 --> 00:24:04.695
as I said, I came from advertising,
marketing, branding, design, all that,

00:24:04.705 --> 00:24:06.165
that they were all skills that I had.

00:24:06.165 --> 00:24:07.125
I had a computer.

00:24:07.125 --> 00:24:14.605
So the first eight months and really
until about a year, I didn't work, but

00:24:14.755 --> 00:24:19.500
eight months to about, You know, for
those, the, the final months of the,

00:24:19.510 --> 00:24:24.340
the first year I started to reach out
to my contacts and, you know, put up

00:24:24.340 --> 00:24:28.340
sites doing freelance and, and things
like that, trying to find clients.

00:24:28.340 --> 00:24:31.450
And so, yeah, I could work on the road.

00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:34.390
I also started to blog.

00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:39.690
And part of that was crazy,
you know, we started to, like,

00:24:39.710 --> 00:24:40.890
people started to read it.

00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:43.331
Like, that's how you, how
we connected, I think.

00:24:43.331 --> 00:24:43.715
Yeah, I

00:24:43.715 --> 00:24:44.098
Rupert Isaacson: found it.

00:24:44.098 --> 00:24:45.248
I was like, this is fascinating.

00:24:45.248 --> 00:24:46.398
I started to read your blog.

00:24:46.398 --> 00:24:46.590
Yeah.

00:24:46.590 --> 00:24:46.781
I

00:24:46.781 --> 00:24:47.548
Lainie Libeti: can't believe this woman

00:24:47.548 --> 00:24:48.410
Rupert Isaacson: is doing this.

00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.080
This is amazing.

00:24:49.340 --> 00:24:49.580
Yeah.

00:24:49.710 --> 00:24:52.800
Lainie Libeti: And my son and I
were doing a podcast at the time

00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:57.850
and his cute little voice, you know,
we would get to a country and we'd.

00:24:58.395 --> 00:25:01.455
Research a topic together
and we'd write it together.

00:25:01.475 --> 00:25:05.145
Sometimes we do interviews with
other people and you know, this,

00:25:05.175 --> 00:25:11.265
this cute, you know, little voice of
Miro, you heard his voice earlier.

00:25:11.265 --> 00:25:16.745
Yeah, he's, he's, he's a man now, you
know, he's not this little kid anymore.

00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:21.670
And so people started listening to our
podcast and people started following

00:25:21.670 --> 00:25:23.220
our journey and that was crazy.

00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:27.430
And so I was doing a little bit of design
work and a little bit of consulting

00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:30.980
and marketing, but frankly, I hated it.

00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:32.250
I was done.

00:25:32.290 --> 00:25:34.810
I was like, so done with that.

00:25:34.830 --> 00:25:40.620
I was burnt out and it just felt
like it was so contrary to who I

00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:43.290
was becoming through this journey.

00:25:43.825 --> 00:25:50.655
And eventually I gave that up
and at one point our blog became

00:25:50.665 --> 00:25:53.375
the source of supporting us.

00:25:53.445 --> 00:25:55.265
We were selling advertisements.

00:25:55.265 --> 00:25:56.725
We were getting sponsorships.

00:25:56.725 --> 00:25:58.005
It was like super crazy.

00:25:58.005 --> 00:26:01.705
It was like the wild west of
travel blogging back then.

00:26:02.055 --> 00:26:06.615
Again, you know, this is, we're talking
16 years ago and travel blogging

00:26:06.635 --> 00:26:11.255
now it's, it's this whole industry,
but I was one of the first without

00:26:11.255 --> 00:26:12.735
Rupert Isaacson: realizing it,
you were being an influencer.

00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:14.450
Lainie Libeti: Yeah, I guess so.

00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:15.070
Sure.

00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:16.410
Yeah.

00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:17.940
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so this begins to happen.

00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:19.880
One, one last logistical question.

00:26:20.110 --> 00:26:22.810
You go down there without
Spanish, yet you're renting

00:26:22.810 --> 00:26:23.890
houses and things like that.

00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:26.060
How are you managing to do that
without speaking the language?

00:26:28.190 --> 00:26:29.770
How did we end up doing that?

00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:32.790
Rupert Isaacson: Unless you
were renting from expats.

00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:42.980
Lainie Libeti: I think many, I
remember landing in this, this town,

00:26:42.990 --> 00:26:48.490
this Really, you know, dirt road
kind of town on the beach in Peru.

00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:51.230
And I remember we got off
the bus and we're like, okay,

00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:52.080
we're going to stay here.

00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:53.290
This is where we're going to go.

00:26:53.300 --> 00:26:56.810
And we're going to stay here for either
a month or a couple, you like, cause

00:26:56.810 --> 00:26:58.710
we like, like to immerse ourselves.

00:26:59.350 --> 00:27:01.460
And I remember we went to a cafe

00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.640
and we met somebody.

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.880
This, this surfer dude who was on
a bike and he spoke English and

00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:13.140
he's like, yeah, I'll help you.

00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:17.220
I'll, I'll, I'll ride around the
town and I'll see who's renting

00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:18.640
and I'll come back and get you.

00:27:18.690 --> 00:27:20.490
And that was really cool.

00:27:21.060 --> 00:27:24.380
A lot of times we went to hostels.

00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.910
And I think from there, we were
able to reach out to locals, my

00:27:29.910 --> 00:27:31.910
Rupert Isaacson: contact
network from there.

00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:32.740
Yeah,

00:27:33.310 --> 00:27:38.180
Lainie Libeti: but my son learned, he was
able to pick up on Spanish quite quickly.

00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.070
I mean, he's a fluent speaker now.

00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:41.470
He's a native fluent speaker.

00:27:41.510 --> 00:27:45.990
My Spanish is still kind of
embarrassing 16 years later, but

00:27:45.990 --> 00:27:50.250
we do own a cafe now, you know, and
I speak Spanish all the time, but.

00:27:51.105 --> 00:27:52.975
You know, it's my Spanish is not great.

00:27:55.255 --> 00:27:57.555
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm
sure you're being very modest.

00:27:57.655 --> 00:27:58.215
Okay.

00:27:58.395 --> 00:28:06.515
So the year turns into years, you
move away from freelancing, you

00:28:07.695 --> 00:28:12.445
become an internet personality
without ever having intended to, and.

00:28:12.835 --> 00:28:19.165
Realize that what your journey is
doing is, of course, inspiring all

00:28:19.165 --> 00:28:23.815
sorts of people around the world
to take leaps of faith and freedom.

00:28:26.115 --> 00:28:30.205
Tell us what you do now
and what was the evolution?

00:28:30.225 --> 00:28:32.685
I don't want, I sort of know
what you do, but I don't want

00:28:32.695 --> 00:28:33.855
to spoil that for the listeners.

00:28:33.855 --> 00:28:36.635
I want it from your mouth because it's
extraordinary the work you're doing now.

00:28:37.315 --> 00:28:39.855
How did that evolve?

00:28:39.875 --> 00:28:41.645
So start with where you're at now.

00:28:42.255 --> 00:28:43.285
And then how did you get that?

00:28:45.065 --> 00:28:46.445
Lainie Libeti: Well, it's a story.

00:28:46.995 --> 00:28:49.815
Well, one of the things that I
mentioned, I said, we can go back to

00:28:49.815 --> 00:28:52.615
that was the whole education point.

00:28:52.685 --> 00:28:53.285
Oh, yes.

00:28:53.975 --> 00:28:58.285
Lainie Libeti: So I knew intuitively
that a year of travel, as I said,

00:28:58.305 --> 00:29:02.085
would be more educational than
fifth grade for my son that I knew.

00:29:02.655 --> 00:29:09.955
But as we decided to continue our travels
as an responsible adult, as a parent,

00:29:10.335 --> 00:29:15.645
I needed to Wrap my head around what
education would look like for my child.

00:29:16.445 --> 00:29:18.265
I'm responsible for his education.

00:29:18.965 --> 00:29:19.985
Would we homeschool?

00:29:20.005 --> 00:29:22.595
Would I enroll him in some
sort of online school?

00:29:22.945 --> 00:29:24.755
Would I enroll him in a local school?

00:29:24.775 --> 00:29:26.255
What would that look like?

00:29:26.255 --> 00:29:29.255
And I started to research
all these different kinds

00:29:29.255 --> 00:29:31.405
of modalities of education.

00:29:32.135 --> 00:29:36.355
And I learned about
something called unschooling.

00:29:36.455 --> 00:29:39.175
It really has been rebranded.

00:29:39.355 --> 00:29:44.345
Pretty much in the last 15 years,
because a lot of people don't have

00:29:44.425 --> 00:29:47.985
a strong connection with the word
unschooling because it's, what's it

00:29:47.985 --> 00:29:49.025
Rupert Isaacson: rebranded as now?

00:29:49.625 --> 00:29:50.955
Lainie Libeti: Self directed learning.

00:29:51.215 --> 00:29:51.805
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:29:52.365 --> 00:29:53.505
Lainie Libeti: Self directed learning.

00:29:53.505 --> 00:29:58.185
So at the time, yeah, I still, a lot
of people call it unschooling, but you

00:29:58.185 --> 00:30:02.845
know, I dove deep into this world and
I started to research what that looked

00:30:02.845 --> 00:30:08.205
like and what the role of the parent
was and how facilitation looked like.

00:30:08.305 --> 00:30:14.045
And how how the parent became a
learner alongside the learner,

00:30:14.045 --> 00:30:16.635
and actually, we're all learners.

00:30:16.635 --> 00:30:18.175
We're all learning all the time.

00:30:18.185 --> 00:30:23.155
So it kind of challenged my idea
of, well, wait a minute, just

00:30:23.155 --> 00:30:24.995
because I'm not school age anymore.

00:30:24.995 --> 00:30:26.425
Does that mean I can't learn?

00:30:26.655 --> 00:30:28.425
You know, so yeah, I want to learn.

00:30:28.445 --> 00:30:29.105
I want to learn.

00:30:29.105 --> 00:30:33.715
So lifelong learner next to
a self directed learner that

00:30:33.965 --> 00:30:36.485
really lit me up in so many ways.

00:30:36.495 --> 00:30:41.945
And as soon as I discovered
this philosophy, I read

00:30:41.945 --> 00:30:43.225
everything I could about it.

00:30:43.225 --> 00:30:43.675
I read.

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.540
You know, books and I read about that,
about it from the political aspect.

00:30:48.540 --> 00:30:52.490
I read about it from the, you
know, the learning aspect, the

00:30:52.530 --> 00:30:57.120
autodidactic, you know, world like
that was this whole new world for me.

00:30:57.760 --> 00:31:03.820
And we really became conscious
about our learning and yeah,

00:31:03.820 --> 00:31:05.250
this became a learning journey.

00:31:05.260 --> 00:31:09.220
And instead of homeschooling or
unschooling, we called it world schooling.

00:31:09.570 --> 00:31:16.000
And to me, that really talked about The
journey that we were on at any time.

00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:21.180
Look, I, and I'm, I'm obnoxiously
curious, obnoxiously, you know,

00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:22.560
I ask questions about everything.

00:31:22.560 --> 00:31:24.700
I never grew out of
that two year old stage.

00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:25.950
Like why, why, why?

00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:27.600
Like, I want to know everything.

00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:31.150
And with the invent of the
internet, I can learn as much

00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:33.480
as I want based on my curiosity.

00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:38.590
And that was the thing that I started
modeling to my son is we were traveling.

00:31:38.600 --> 00:31:44.005
I remember being at the, The Panama
Canal and asking question after question

00:31:44.005 --> 00:31:45.675
after question to the tour guide.

00:31:45.675 --> 00:31:48.605
And we were, I was like, Mom,
we can look this stuff up.

00:31:48.625 --> 00:31:50.495
You're, you're totally annoying him.

00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:52.985
He's like, but let's look
it up when we get back.

00:31:53.605 --> 00:31:59.755
And those, those are the kinds of, you
know, that, that transformed our journey

00:31:59.755 --> 00:32:01.775
into like this whole learning journey.

00:32:02.345 --> 00:32:02.745
And.

00:32:03.305 --> 00:32:08.265
Because we were working on this project
together, our blog and our podcast

00:32:08.295 --> 00:32:12.535
to document our journey, it did, it
transformed into this like, and we're

00:32:12.535 --> 00:32:15.995
learning this and we're learning that
and these people are interesting and

00:32:16.005 --> 00:32:20.535
people do things like this culturally
and the history is that, you know, we

00:32:20.535 --> 00:32:27.195
tell these stories on our podcast and
learning to us was just like, As natural

00:32:27.195 --> 00:32:34.855
as living, and a lot of people started
writing to me going, you know, well,

00:32:35.785 --> 00:32:38.225
how can I educate my child this way?

00:32:38.515 --> 00:32:39.885
How can I do this thing?

00:32:39.885 --> 00:32:44.165
And where can I go in this place,
you know, in this country and with

00:32:44.165 --> 00:32:45.785
five people, what should we do?

00:32:45.785 --> 00:32:48.285
And suddenly I was getting
these questions that I wrote.

00:32:48.355 --> 00:32:52.335
Wasn't really qualified to answer
because I was a single person.

00:32:52.335 --> 00:32:53.215
I wasn't in Europe.

00:32:53.215 --> 00:32:54.195
I wasn't in Asia.

00:32:54.195 --> 00:32:55.655
I wasn't with a large family.

00:32:55.655 --> 00:32:57.505
I didn't know how to
answer these questions.

00:32:58.035 --> 00:33:03.555
And I said, okay, let's start this
Facebook group because I'm sure we

00:33:03.555 --> 00:33:06.135
can come up with these ideas together.

00:33:06.445 --> 00:33:10.225
And there are people that are in different
parts of the world that have this piece of

00:33:10.225 --> 00:33:16.525
the that, you know, this questions answer
and We could all share information and

00:33:16.555 --> 00:33:21.655
that really became the beginning or the
launch of the world schooling movement.

00:33:22.065 --> 00:33:28.495
So, you know, I didn't mean to, but
I started through this and, you know,

00:33:28.495 --> 00:33:32.945
I had a Facebook group that grew to
60, 000 people and, you know, all this

00:33:32.965 --> 00:33:37.015
stuff happened, but just it's kind of.

00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:41.980
Accidentally, I started a movement
and accidentally, you know, there's,

00:33:42.130 --> 00:33:44.780
there's so many families doing this now.

00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:48.510
So, yeah, now I got sidetracked.

00:33:48.770 --> 00:33:51.140
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm
actually, I'm busy on my phone as

00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.310
you speak, looking up, okay, world
school, like, what's world school?

00:33:53.570 --> 00:33:55.730
Just to see, boom, all
this stuff comes up.

00:33:56.590 --> 00:33:59.640
Lainie Libeti: But it wasn't a thing
before, it just wasn't a thing.

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.080
So, yeah.

00:34:02.600 --> 00:34:04.150
Rupert Isaacson: It's,
it's very interesting.

00:34:04.410 --> 00:34:05.250
What is world schooling?

00:34:05.260 --> 00:34:06.090
Everything you need to know.

00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:07.270
People often ask.

00:34:07.270 --> 00:34:07.550
I don't know.

00:34:07.570 --> 00:34:07.850
Here's,

00:34:08.680 --> 00:34:09.070
Lainie Libeti: yep,

00:34:09.210 --> 00:34:11.470
But it wasn't a thing
until we made it a thing.

00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.790
And, and now everybody
can make it their own.

00:34:14.260 --> 00:34:14.510
That's fine.

00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:15.080
Okay.

00:34:15.130 --> 00:34:19.370
Rupert Isaacson: So a couple of things,
as you know, I homeschooled for many years

00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:21.259
because my son, Rowan, was, you know.

00:34:21.910 --> 00:34:22.240
Yeah,

00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.849
Rupert Isaacson: it's in a way that
the local schools in Texas, rural

00:34:25.850 --> 00:34:27.080
Texas, they just couldn't handle.

00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:29.200
So I was sort of forced into it.

00:34:29.660 --> 00:34:31.780
I just said he didn't want to
cause I thought it was way too

00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:33.220
much work, but I ended up doing it.

00:34:33.270 --> 00:34:39.570
And like you, I ended up, you know,
formulating a method So it's become

00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:42.320
a thing and it's called movement
method and it's all over the world.

00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.570
It's neuroscience, basically applied
neuroscience, blah, blah, blah.

00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:49.610
And then at a certain point after I'd
been doing that for about a decade

00:34:50.130 --> 00:34:52.310
Rowan decided he actually wanted to.

00:34:52.775 --> 00:34:55.115
give the last two years
of high school a try.

00:34:56.585 --> 00:34:57.185
And he did.

00:34:57.475 --> 00:34:59.105
And he went and he graduated.

00:35:00.015 --> 00:35:04.705
One of the, so it was interesting that
he then went back into the system.

00:35:04.945 --> 00:35:09.995
But for sure, and he said this himself,
he wouldn't have been able to do that

00:35:10.005 --> 00:35:15.025
if he hadn't been able to grow his brain
effectively in the environment that He

00:35:15.165 --> 00:35:17.425
needed, and that was completely directed.

00:35:17.425 --> 00:35:20.285
I remember the first day
he came back from school.

00:35:20.895 --> 00:35:23.975
He tried to even tried to find the
most hippie school we possibly could.

00:35:23.975 --> 00:35:25.185
And it just, he wasn't having it.

00:35:25.185 --> 00:35:28.315
And he took all his clothes
off and rolled in the dirt.

00:35:28.385 --> 00:35:29.795
I want to be a countryside boy.

00:35:29.795 --> 00:35:31.575
And I was like, I hear you.

00:35:32.205 --> 00:35:33.185
And that's what we'll do.

00:35:33.665 --> 00:35:36.195
And then there was this point where,
so then I was sort of homeschooling,

00:35:36.265 --> 00:35:40.315
homeschooling and using these different
movements that I had realized on

00:35:40.315 --> 00:35:44.225
the horse opened up the learning
receptors and opened up communication.

00:35:44.345 --> 00:35:46.695
So then I'd gone to
neuroscientists and found out why.

00:35:46.705 --> 00:35:47.475
I said, okay, well, great.

00:35:47.475 --> 00:35:51.055
So I could do this without a horse now
and I can use various types of play

00:35:51.055 --> 00:35:52.785
equipment and so on, feed in information.

00:35:52.795 --> 00:35:54.035
And so this is good.

00:35:54.635 --> 00:35:57.735
And then he starts saying to me, as
we like cracked it and I'm feeding

00:35:57.735 --> 00:35:59.045
in like national curriculum stuff.

00:35:59.295 --> 00:36:00.775
And he says to me, I'm sick of learning.

00:36:00.775 --> 00:36:01.865
I don't want to learn anymore.

00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:03.250
Lainie Libeti: Oh no.

00:36:04.140 --> 00:36:07.220
Rupert Isaacson: And that's where I
discovered unschooling and, and I sort

00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:09.820
of looked at him and went, all right.

00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:12.010
Like I wasn't going to fight him over it.

00:36:12.020 --> 00:36:13.460
Like I was going to, all right.

00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:16.340
And then I sort of went and told
him, I think I could do that.

00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.210
I think I could, I think I could go right
on doing what I'm doing just by stealth.

00:36:21.810 --> 00:36:25.450
And that turned out to be absolutely
the case because for him it was

00:36:25.450 --> 00:36:27.860
about, you know, stress and anxiety.

00:36:28.390 --> 00:36:29.040
So.

00:36:30.410 --> 00:36:35.110
I know that process of
falling into something.

00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:38.900
One of the criticisms, which of course
people always leveled, one of the many

00:36:38.910 --> 00:36:42.460
criticisms people always leveled at
us, was oh, well, if you homeschool

00:36:42.470 --> 00:36:46.780
like that out on a ranch in Texas, what
about his, you know, socialization?

00:36:46.780 --> 00:36:47.250
And I was like, what?

00:36:47.270 --> 00:36:50.260
So socialization, if I send him
into that rural school, though,

00:36:50.260 --> 00:36:51.700
he's going to get massively bullied.

00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:53.920
Yeah, that's negative socialization.

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.080
Is that what you're saying I should do?

00:36:55.615 --> 00:36:56.935
Or, but I hear you.

00:36:56.995 --> 00:37:00.355
So, of course, the life that
we were living on that ranch

00:37:00.355 --> 00:37:01.445
was very international.

00:37:01.985 --> 00:37:05.165
Once horseboy method and movement method
became kind of a thing, there were all

00:37:05.165 --> 00:37:06.435
sorts of people coming all the time.

00:37:06.435 --> 00:37:10.365
So he was constantly surrounded by
all sorts of interesting people,

00:37:10.365 --> 00:37:14.295
many of whom stayed for years in
his life and are still in his life.

00:37:14.885 --> 00:37:21.955
However with autism, a lot of many,
many kids actually Don't so much crave

00:37:22.215 --> 00:37:24.435
a peer group when they're younger.

00:37:24.605 --> 00:37:26.285
That seems to come later.

00:37:26.885 --> 00:37:29.055
They often kind of know
they're not that safe around.

00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:33.190
Other kids and so they tend
to look to adults, but Miro.

00:37:34.890 --> 00:37:37.560
I don't know if you would say
he was neurodiverse or what?

00:37:38.810 --> 00:37:44.390
Obviously he would be more a type of a
child that would want to Have some sort

00:37:44.390 --> 00:37:48.530
of a peer group and so on if you're
moving from country to country you're

00:37:48.730 --> 00:37:52.040
speaking a foreign language and so
on How did you navigate around that?

00:37:52.070 --> 00:37:53.120
How did or how did that?

00:37:53.510 --> 00:37:55.060
How did that evolve?

00:37:55.365 --> 00:37:56.095
To work for him.

00:37:57.425 --> 00:37:57.875
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

00:37:57.905 --> 00:38:01.955
Well, that that's a really
pivotal part of our story.

00:38:02.245 --> 00:38:09.085
Actually as we started to continue our
journey, you know, he was now moving

00:38:09.085 --> 00:38:14.995
into his early adolescence and because
people were reading our blog and, and

00:38:14.995 --> 00:38:19.645
they were really fascinated with this form
of education, we were invited to speak

00:38:19.645 --> 00:38:22.215
at conferences in the, in the States.

00:38:22.255 --> 00:38:28.055
So, One time we flew back from Peru,
and we went to our first unschooling

00:38:28.055 --> 00:38:33.035
conference, and we were presenting, both
he and I, about our life and our learning.

00:38:33.545 --> 00:38:37.995
And that wasn't the amazing
part, the presenting part.

00:38:38.055 --> 00:38:41.465
What the amazing part was,
there were all of these.

00:38:42.010 --> 00:38:46.740
Free range, 13 year olds and 12 year
olds and 15 year olds and 14 year olds.

00:38:46.740 --> 00:38:50.760
And they were all running around together
and they were all being hyper creative

00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:56.880
and, you know, doing theater and music
and creating games and all of this stuff.

00:38:56.890 --> 00:39:04.065
And that was really his first
sort of entrance into An

00:39:04.155 --> 00:39:07.185
adolescent peer group, right?

00:39:07.225 --> 00:39:12.295
Because from 10 to 13, he was social,
you know, it was getting quote unquote,

00:39:12.725 --> 00:39:15.345
I hate the terms of socialization as,

00:39:15.345 --> 00:39:16.834
Rupert Isaacson: you

00:39:16.835 --> 00:39:18.895
Lainie Libeti: know,
socialization could only happen,

00:39:19.195 --> 00:39:21.405
Rupert Isaacson: but he wasn't
craving to have a group of mates.

00:39:21.405 --> 00:39:22.644
Lainie Libeti: He

00:39:22.925 --> 00:39:25.605
Rupert Isaacson: was nine to 12.

00:39:25.655 --> 00:39:26.135
Not, not so much.

00:39:27.365 --> 00:39:27.625
Not

00:39:27.625 --> 00:39:30.515
Lainie Libeti: so much because we were
doing adventures and we were meeting

00:39:30.515 --> 00:39:33.595
interesting people and sometimes there
were kids and sometimes there weren't

00:39:33.595 --> 00:39:36.795
and there was always, you know, an
adventure and we, we learn how to

00:39:36.795 --> 00:39:40.325
surf and we learn how to do this and
we like all these different things.

00:39:40.325 --> 00:39:41.124
Yeah,

00:39:41.125 --> 00:39:45.259
Lainie Libeti: he wasn't really missing
because remember he was really craving me.

00:39:45.260 --> 00:39:51.870
And the connection that he was needing
to feel, which prompted the whole trip.

00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:58.180
But at 13, things changed
and that became salute.

00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:03.760
That became kind of like, Oh, okay.

00:40:03.770 --> 00:40:04.870
So now.

00:40:05.240 --> 00:40:07.160
Something else is happening.

00:40:07.520 --> 00:40:08.250
Okay.

00:40:08.260 --> 00:40:10.970
And I remember flying back to Peru.

00:40:10.990 --> 00:40:14.490
We had this like really
deep heart to heart.

00:40:14.830 --> 00:40:20.170
He was feeling the loss of this thing
that he wanted, which was community.

00:40:20.875 --> 00:40:25.295
And we talked, and we talked, and we,
like, should we move back to the states?

00:40:25.315 --> 00:40:26.585
Do you want community?

00:40:26.585 --> 00:40:30.515
You know, these kids that are
unschooling kids, these are your people.

00:40:30.855 --> 00:40:33.435
They're not the people
that are in schools now.

00:40:33.735 --> 00:40:35.465
No, he didn't want to go back to school.

00:40:35.465 --> 00:40:37.645
He didn't want a traditional education.

00:40:37.645 --> 00:40:39.540
He wanted Those people.

00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:44.220
He wanted the, you know, the people
that were free , you know, that,

00:40:44.250 --> 00:40:47.400
that were doing the same sort of
learning that he was do doing.

00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:50.520
There was some sort of
camaraderie, camaraderie or

00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:52.440
connection with those people.

00:40:52.770 --> 00:40:54.780
But they all didn't live in one place.

00:40:54.810 --> 00:40:56.580
They all came together for our conference.

00:40:56.580 --> 00:41:03.310
So we, you know, we were, we talked and
talked and he was having what, what I like

00:41:03.310 --> 00:41:06.100
to call situational depression, right?

00:41:06.600 --> 00:41:06.840
He,

00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:07.231
Rupert Isaacson: what does that mean?

00:41:09.535 --> 00:41:13.755
Lainie Libeti: Affected by the situation
there, there was a, a great depression.

00:41:13.755 --> 00:41:18.485
I don't think ever had this
diagnosis of clinical depression,

00:41:19.095 --> 00:41:24.735
but there it was really, it became
a part of our everyday life.

00:41:24.735 --> 00:41:25.865
Now, he was so sad.

00:41:25.865 --> 00:41:26.524
There were no.

00:41:26.525 --> 00:41:31.955
You know, he didn't want to, he, he had
no connection to like the potato farmers

00:41:31.955 --> 00:41:34.675
in, in the Andes where we were living.

00:41:34.685 --> 00:41:37.685
He just didn't connect with
these boys, his age, right?

00:41:37.695 --> 00:41:41.255
He wanted his people, but he
didn't want to be in the States.

00:41:41.345 --> 00:41:43.845
So there was this, this big.

00:41:44.765 --> 00:41:45.825
Rupert Isaacson: So what was the solution?

00:41:45.875 --> 00:41:47.105
How did you, how did you solve that?

00:41:47.735 --> 00:41:52.870
Lainie Libeti: Well, That
became this, this brainstorm.

00:41:52.870 --> 00:41:55.600
I said, well, why don't
we bring kids to us?

00:41:55.630 --> 00:41:55.960
Right.

00:41:56.200 --> 00:42:00.420
Lainie Libeti: That was the birth of
our, our business that we launched

00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:02.680
together called Project World School.

00:42:02.680 --> 00:42:03.760
Okay.

00:42:04.540 --> 00:42:08.580
Lainie Libeti: That really became
the reason why we created this

00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:12.260
business and Miro was saying,
nah, this is never going to work.

00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:13.730
This is your mom.

00:42:13.730 --> 00:42:15.580
You're, you're, you're dreaming.

00:42:15.580 --> 00:42:16.820
This isn't going to work.

00:42:16.870 --> 00:42:22.450
And it took about a year, actually,
and we got our first group to

00:42:22.460 --> 00:42:25.190
come now, the preparation to

00:42:25.190 --> 00:42:25.799
Rupert Isaacson: Peru.

00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:26.630
They came to the

00:42:26.720 --> 00:42:27.260
Lainie Libeti: room.

00:42:27.390 --> 00:42:29.180
We sold a teen retreat.

00:42:29.550 --> 00:42:34.580
So the preparation that I needed
to do, and this, so launch you into

00:42:34.610 --> 00:42:38.470
answering the question that I never
answered, which is what I'm doing now.

00:42:39.040 --> 00:42:43.860
But this launched me into,
okay, we're bringing teens here.

00:42:43.890 --> 00:42:47.330
I need to know everything
about facilitating teens.

00:42:47.350 --> 00:42:48.990
I need to know about the team brain.

00:42:49.010 --> 00:42:50.990
I needed to know about neurobiology.

00:42:51.310 --> 00:42:52.530
I needed to know about.

00:42:52.915 --> 00:42:54.255
How to hold space.

00:42:54.275 --> 00:42:56.495
I need to know about learning communities.

00:42:56.545 --> 00:42:59.435
I needed to know about
conflict resolution.

00:42:59.435 --> 00:43:01.145
I needed to know about.

00:43:02.130 --> 00:43:06.450
The travel logistics, I am creating
a company out of need, but I

00:43:06.450 --> 00:43:08.590
need to be aware of these things.

00:43:08.590 --> 00:43:13.890
And that sent me into this deep
dive of self directed learning.

00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.710
You know, I'm in autodidactic and
always have been my whole life.

00:43:18.050 --> 00:43:20.550
So I learned everything
I could about this.

00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:25.440
And there was a, You know, sort of
side story that we can talk about

00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:30.900
later, but there was a convergence
of information that I was learning

00:43:30.910 --> 00:43:35.660
about the team brain and about
psychology and neurobiology and hormone

00:43:35.670 --> 00:43:39.480
development and all this stuff that.

00:43:39.945 --> 00:43:49.735
Really kind of sparked some of the
sort of inner unsettledness inside of

00:43:49.745 --> 00:43:55.835
me about my adolescence and the abuse
that I felt growing up and, and the

00:43:55.835 --> 00:43:59.795
way that my brain was programmed, you
know, and I, you know, I started to

00:43:59.875 --> 00:44:05.355
realize that this hyper independence
was a trauma response inside of me.

00:44:05.780 --> 00:44:10.560
And you, you know, all of the tools
that I thought were my superpowers

00:44:10.570 --> 00:44:17.600
really came from my pro my childhood
programming, which was rooted in abuse.

00:44:18.390 --> 00:44:23.269
And as I started to work with teens, It

00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:30.750
really helped me to start self healing
so that like there were all these

00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:32.510
things going on at the same time.

00:44:32.510 --> 00:44:41.590
My son moving into his own adolescence, me
revisiting my adolescence, and then, you

00:44:41.590 --> 00:44:49.710
know, learning the, the, the information,
the academic information to help guide

00:44:49.710 --> 00:44:54.740
me and create those sort of foundations
to be able to hold space for other teens.

00:44:55.020 --> 00:44:56.320
It was powerful.

00:44:56.330 --> 00:45:00.960
Like that really was what drove me
into the work that I'm doing now.

00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:03.620
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

00:45:03.620 --> 00:45:10.800
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:15.520
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:16.440
Are you a therapist?

00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:18.130
Are you a caregiver?

00:45:18.520 --> 00:45:19.530
Are you a parent?

00:45:19.965 --> 00:45:21.995
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:45:23.435 --> 00:45:28.375
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:45:28.415 --> 00:45:30.045
I really didn't know what to do.

00:45:30.245 --> 00:45:35.515
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:45:35.555 --> 00:45:38.355
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:45:38.505 --> 00:45:39.395
Temple Grandin.

00:45:39.595 --> 00:45:41.235
And she told me what to do.

00:45:41.285 --> 00:45:45.525
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:45:45.875 --> 00:45:50.325
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:45:50.585 --> 00:45:54.335
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:45:54.675 --> 00:45:58.575
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:45:59.605 --> 00:46:04.045
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:46:04.265 --> 00:46:06.305
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:46:06.965 --> 00:46:10.322
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:46:10.322 --> 00:46:12.585
It's almost laughably simple.

00:46:13.525 --> 00:46:16.225
The important thing is to begin.

00:46:17.155 --> 00:46:20.305
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:46:20.305 --> 00:46:23.595
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:46:24.625 --> 00:46:27.555
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:46:29.825 --> 00:46:32.330
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:46:32.770 --> 00:46:35.660
Take the online movement method course.

00:46:36.150 --> 00:46:37.520
It's in 40 countries.

00:46:38.130 --> 00:46:40.190
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:46:40.390 --> 00:46:41.160
We really want to know.

00:46:41.170 --> 00:46:45.670
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:46:46.020 --> 00:46:49.300
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:46:50.290 --> 00:46:52.339
Okay.

00:46:52.500 --> 00:46:55.420
Just before we get into
that, there's a lot,

00:46:55.450 --> 00:46:55.850
Lainie Libeti: right?

00:46:56.080 --> 00:47:00.450
Rupert Isaacson: I want to know how
those conferences or those retreats

00:47:01.160 --> 00:47:03.730
then ended up being structured.

00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:07.470
Also, how did you, there's some
logistics there like insurance and you're

00:47:07.470 --> 00:47:09.350
suddenly responsible for all these kids.

00:47:09.350 --> 00:47:09.670
That's right.

00:47:10.625 --> 00:47:11.715
Whoa, that's a tall order.

00:47:12.235 --> 00:47:14.305
And are they still going?

00:47:14.845 --> 00:47:16.755
And if, and, and what did you do?

00:47:16.755 --> 00:47:18.155
What, what, what, what was the format?

00:47:19.255 --> 00:47:19.655
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

00:47:19.675 --> 00:47:22.465
So, Project World School
is still operating.

00:47:22.465 --> 00:47:25.235
We are still running
retreats, believe it or not.

00:47:25.715 --> 00:47:30.425
The first retreat was a smaller
retreat and we did a lot of learning.

00:47:30.425 --> 00:47:30.655
It was.

00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:32.070
It's a little too long.

00:47:32.080 --> 00:47:35.540
We did a six week retreat for four teens.

00:47:36.240 --> 00:47:41.250
The logistics, luckily I have a
lawyer in my family that helped

00:47:41.250 --> 00:47:43.520
me create, you know, yeah, because

00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:45.860
Rupert Isaacson: that, that, that's
a lot of, there's a lot of moving

00:47:45.860 --> 00:47:46.640
parts to something like that.

00:47:46.780 --> 00:47:47.160
Yeah.

00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:48.950
Lainie Libeti: And and guess what?

00:47:48.990 --> 00:47:53.780
I'm an amazing producer, so I
can do multiple things at once.

00:47:53.780 --> 00:47:56.410
I now produce conferences as well as well.

00:47:56.410 --> 00:48:00.990
So I've produced 10 conferences and I
love lots of moving parts and putting

00:48:00.990 --> 00:48:02.900
things together to create this big.

00:48:03.120 --> 00:48:03.700
Vision.

00:48:04.150 --> 00:48:07.650
And I've got a mind that
will allow me to do that.

00:48:08.290 --> 00:48:17.310
But yeah, so the structure really was
based on adventures based on, first of

00:48:17.310 --> 00:48:21.500
all, there has to be, um, consent, right?

00:48:21.500 --> 00:48:26.700
So each teen really needed to
consent to the things that we

00:48:26.700 --> 00:48:28.570
were doing each and every day.

00:48:28.590 --> 00:48:33.400
And consent is huge because I think
sovereignty and in human beings,

00:48:33.430 --> 00:48:36.910
bodily autonomy and sovereignty
and all of those things are a big

00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:40.470
part of my, my personal philosophy.

00:48:40.470 --> 00:48:44.780
And I really want to make sure
that that's a part of every event.

00:48:45.120 --> 00:48:48.880
That I've ever hosted or and
we'll host in the future.

00:48:49.300 --> 00:48:54.860
So, the consent of here's, here's the
guidelines that we must live by in order

00:48:54.860 --> 00:48:57.360
for you to be a part of this retreat.

00:48:57.370 --> 00:48:59.610
Do you consent to these guidelines?

00:48:59.610 --> 00:49:01.720
The guidelines are things like no drugs.

00:49:02.010 --> 00:49:05.910
We need to be within
the community structure.

00:49:05.930 --> 00:49:10.600
No, no, you know, leaving the
community, no drinking, you know,

00:49:10.940 --> 00:49:17.320
no, you know, Honoring each other's
bodily, bodily sovereignty, autonomy

00:49:17.640 --> 00:49:20.290
respect for things, that sort of thing.

00:49:20.290 --> 00:49:23.840
So there's, there's this consent going in.

00:49:23.860 --> 00:49:25.040
It's not rules.

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:29.050
Rules are very different than,
than opting in to something.

00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:32.380
And that, that creates
a, an agreement, right?

00:49:33.110 --> 00:49:38.550
So every, so Approaching it from
that perspective from the, from the

00:49:38.550 --> 00:49:44.280
get go means that we have to have a
sense of community and communication.

00:49:44.290 --> 00:49:50.520
There has to be each team has to have
the ability to be able to either self

00:49:50.540 --> 00:49:54.800
advocate for themselves within the
group or with me, the facilitator.

00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.460
So I can advocate for them,
but there has to be a level

00:49:58.460 --> 00:50:01.070
of of emotional intelligence.

00:50:01.100 --> 00:50:01.830
You have other

00:50:01.830 --> 00:50:02.950
Rupert Isaacson: facilitators as well.

00:50:02.950 --> 00:50:04.060
I presume you have.

00:50:04.615 --> 00:50:07.195
Because if you went to blue
in the middle of it was always

00:50:07.235 --> 00:50:10.065
Lainie Libeti: to always to adults and.

00:50:10.945 --> 00:50:17.925
Most of the, the retreats always,
you know, have have been like,

00:50:17.925 --> 00:50:19.115
we haven't had any problems.

00:50:19.625 --> 00:50:24.425
There's been a few because people, you
know, change their minds and things

00:50:24.425 --> 00:50:26.675
happen and we have to negotiate that.

00:50:27.055 --> 00:50:28.175
But going in.

00:50:29.305 --> 00:50:34.635
That really is, is the
spirit of our team retreats.

00:50:34.645 --> 00:50:40.115
It's your autonomous, your, your, your
words, your point of view matters.

00:50:40.625 --> 00:50:44.725
And we created this structure
of a nightly circle.

00:50:44.735 --> 00:50:48.185
So every night we review the day,
what worked, what didn't work.

00:50:48.215 --> 00:50:53.955
We ask questions based on like
a, a worldview perspective,

00:50:53.995 --> 00:50:56.155
but it was always a way of.

00:50:56.825 --> 00:51:03.155
Of using the internal worlds as
a way of expressing the external

00:51:03.155 --> 00:51:04.885
world, whatever was happening.

00:51:04.885 --> 00:51:11.035
So the external world became a reflection
of our internal worlds, you know, as well.

00:51:11.045 --> 00:51:15.585
So the internal worlds were a big
part of our, our journeys and the

00:51:15.585 --> 00:51:17.415
project world school structure.

00:51:18.435 --> 00:51:18.685
Yeah.

00:51:18.685 --> 00:51:18.905
Go

00:51:18.995 --> 00:51:19.075
Rupert Isaacson: ahead.

00:51:19.185 --> 00:51:20.605
What goes on on a retreat though?

00:51:20.605 --> 00:51:22.875
What's, what's like, give
me an idea of a typical day.

00:51:23.560 --> 00:51:24.150
Lainie Libeti: Sure.

00:51:24.210 --> 00:51:26.950
So I'll give you an
example of a Peru retreat.

00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:32.070
You know, today we're going to explore,
you know, these set of ruins and we're

00:51:32.070 --> 00:51:38.140
going to speak with a historian at
who talks about alternative history.

00:51:38.160 --> 00:51:42.170
And now we're going to we're going to do
a comparison between the academic history

00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:46.570
of this ruin, and we're going to look and
observe what we see, and then listen to

00:51:46.570 --> 00:51:48.630
the story of the alternative researcher.

00:51:48.630 --> 00:51:49.850
Where do we think?

00:51:50.195 --> 00:51:55.595
You know, the, the, the truth lies
using that kind of critical exploration.

00:51:55.985 --> 00:52:00.205
And you know, if we were in Peru, we're
going to explore the story of the Incas.

00:52:00.235 --> 00:52:03.255
We're going to also go
to the the, what is that?

00:52:03.335 --> 00:52:10.595
The planetarium, the outdoor planetarium
and learn about the, the myth of

00:52:10.705 --> 00:52:12.785
the creatures that lived in, in.

00:52:13.075 --> 00:52:20.985
the stars and how that informed the
traditions that we, we saw in the ruins.

00:52:21.005 --> 00:52:24.215
We're going to explore it from
all these different perspectives.

00:52:24.215 --> 00:52:25.845
We're going to go to the farm now.

00:52:25.845 --> 00:52:26.035
You'd bring

00:52:26.035 --> 00:52:28.595
Rupert Isaacson: in local historians
locally or you'd go to them.

00:52:28.845 --> 00:52:34.115
Lainie Libeti: All locals, all locals,
but we also, and then, but, but it wasn't

00:52:34.115 --> 00:52:36.785
just about listening to a historian.

00:52:36.905 --> 00:52:38.995
Everything was experiential learning.

00:52:39.005 --> 00:52:40.225
There were no tests.

00:52:40.265 --> 00:52:46.890
There were no, you know, It was,
it was a lot of of putting the

00:52:46.890 --> 00:52:52.500
pieces together through all of the
experiences to learn about this culture.

00:52:52.500 --> 00:52:56.170
And then we'd look at the modern
day culture and and have some

00:52:56.170 --> 00:52:58.320
really big examination of that.

00:52:58.330 --> 00:53:01.620
Or we'd go stay on a farm and learn how.

00:53:02.490 --> 00:53:08.630
To cook the traditional foods and actually
do it and where are the traditional

00:53:08.640 --> 00:53:14.370
clothes and milk a cow or, you know,
eat a guinea pig or whatever the

00:53:14.370 --> 00:53:16.740
thing was of that particular country.

00:53:17.660 --> 00:53:19.950
And it was about cultural immersion.

00:53:20.200 --> 00:53:24.680
So experiential learning through
cultural immersion and a lot

00:53:24.680 --> 00:53:26.950
of feedback and a lot of.

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:28.660
Internal processing

00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:34.460
Rupert Isaacson: and the kids who came
or still come on these are all from world

00:53:34.460 --> 00:53:37.520
school slash unschooling backgrounds
Or are they now from every background?

00:53:37.520 --> 00:53:39.970
Are these also high
schoolers who just want to?

00:53:40.330 --> 00:53:42.540
Experience something different.

00:53:42.580 --> 00:53:49.260
Lainie Libeti: I'd say 90 95 percent
of our clients are Some sort of

00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:52.525
alternative alternatively educated.

00:53:52.785 --> 00:53:57.055
We've had kids from like Sudbury
schools or democratic schools.

00:53:57.845 --> 00:54:01.695
On occasions, we've had kids
from traditional schools.

00:54:01.815 --> 00:54:05.305
Believe it or not, those
are the percentage of times

00:54:05.305 --> 00:54:06.635
that we've had problems.

00:54:06.935 --> 00:54:07.145
Rupert Isaacson: Well,

00:54:07.155 --> 00:54:07.375
Lainie Libeti: it's

00:54:07.465 --> 00:54:07.925
Rupert Isaacson: no doubt.

00:54:07.955 --> 00:54:08.165
Yeah.

00:54:08.165 --> 00:54:12.845
Because if people are used to being
organized and told what to do, it's

00:54:12.845 --> 00:54:14.115
very tricky if they find themselves in a

00:54:17.190 --> 00:54:20.030
Lainie Libeti: They have freedom
for the first time and it's about

00:54:20.380 --> 00:54:22.610
who do you push boundaries against?

00:54:22.610 --> 00:54:26.610
Well, quote unquote, the perceived
authority and we're not authority.

00:54:26.810 --> 00:54:28.550
We're in partnership again.

00:54:28.550 --> 00:54:33.740
That partnership that my son and I set
out on continued through our business.

00:54:33.770 --> 00:54:34.260
Right?

00:54:34.270 --> 00:54:35.510
So that's how we.

00:54:35.850 --> 00:54:36.840
Function in that most

00:54:37.070 --> 00:54:39.110
Rupert Isaacson: kids are not
taught any kind of partnership,

00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:40.320
Lainie Libeti: right?

00:54:40.340 --> 00:54:43.680
They're like, wait, this does
not compute does not make sense.

00:54:43.890 --> 00:54:44.310
I have

00:54:44.310 --> 00:54:47.360
Rupert Isaacson: that's a skill
set that yeah, intelligence and

00:54:47.430 --> 00:54:50.480
evolution that you're not going
to get that at a regular school.

00:54:51.210 --> 00:54:51.900
Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

00:54:53.040 --> 00:54:55.680
Rupert Isaacson: But here's a, here's
another question then devil's advocate.

00:54:55.730 --> 00:54:56.070
Okay.

00:54:56.070 --> 00:54:59.770
So the, someone like Miro comes at
the end of that education, as you

00:54:59.770 --> 00:55:04.280
say, he's 26 now can those kids then
go on to university if they want to?

00:55:04.955 --> 00:55:10.145
And if so, how, like, would they then
just go back and take a GED and sit in

00:55:10.165 --> 00:55:14.225
whatever exams they want to, what they're
told that they need to sit in order

00:55:14.225 --> 00:55:19.505
to go and get the university entrance
that they need, or what's the mechanism

00:55:19.505 --> 00:55:23.775
by which someone from the world school
background would then enter higher,

00:55:23.995 --> 00:55:25.465
sort of, mainstream higher education?

00:55:26.695 --> 00:55:29.545
Lainie Libeti: Well, we haven't
moved into what I do now, but

00:55:30.095 --> 00:55:31.690
Rupert Isaacson: so is, is
that the tr is it part Okay.

00:55:32.325 --> 00:55:34.935
Lainie Libeti: It can be
part of the work that I do.

00:55:34.935 --> 00:55:40.005
I work with teens now directly with
tools for mental health, but I tend

00:55:40.005 --> 00:55:44.735
to work with a lot of teens that
obviously come from the unschooling

00:55:44.735 --> 00:55:46.925
world, schooling, homeschooling world.

00:55:47.580 --> 00:55:52.650
And part of what I do is
help them to organize their

00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:55.450
experience into a transcript.

00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:00.710
Transcripts can be created from anybody
because we could create it from a parent.

00:56:00.720 --> 00:56:05.680
It could be created from, from an
outside source, but I work from the

00:56:05.680 --> 00:56:11.450
perspective of mental health and
also educational background, right?

00:56:12.230 --> 00:56:12.730
Rupert Isaacson: So.

00:56:12.900 --> 00:56:14.050
Multiple transcripts, exactly.

00:56:14.375 --> 00:56:17.955
Lainie Libeti: Well, in the United
States, and to answer your question

00:56:17.965 --> 00:56:21.675
from the perspective of the United
States, and it may be different in

00:56:21.675 --> 00:56:26.645
different countries in the in Europe
and South America and the rest of

00:56:26.645 --> 00:56:31.245
the world transcripts are from your.

00:56:31.590 --> 00:56:36.750
School, your high school
experience and it records what you

00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:38.820
studied and what your grade is.

00:56:38.820 --> 00:56:40.890
And really that's all it is.

00:56:41.340 --> 00:56:45.840
As an unschooler and an unschooling
coach, one of the things that I help

00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:55.520
students do is really translate their
experience into a trans scriptable

00:56:56.020 --> 00:56:59.530
language that a college will accept.

00:56:59.990 --> 00:57:00.260
There's.

00:57:00.790 --> 00:57:02.870
In the United States,
there's private schools.

00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:08.100
There's a there's also state schools in
every state, and each one has a different

00:57:08.110 --> 00:57:10.250
format of what they're looking for.

00:57:10.620 --> 00:57:19.450
And in addition to just a line item,
I help on schoolers, teens, you know.

00:57:19.890 --> 00:57:28.210
Create portfolios that show their
work that that are not just,

00:57:28.270 --> 00:57:30.230
you know, art based portfolio.

00:57:30.250 --> 00:57:33.530
When we say portfolio, we think
of an artist showing a portfolio.

00:57:34.210 --> 00:57:39.690
This is a scope and breadth of
work that they've created, and

00:57:39.690 --> 00:57:41.180
it may not be a physical thing.

00:57:41.180 --> 00:57:47.390
It may be a description of the
experience and an outline of the.

00:57:47.755 --> 00:57:53.065
Learning that took place, you know,
and it may be you know, a journey

00:57:53.065 --> 00:57:58.265
into volunteering at an animal
sanctuary for several months.

00:57:58.265 --> 00:58:02.084
And we could pull that into
biology civics, you know, civics.

00:58:02.335 --> 00:58:08.915
Civics and service and humanities and all
these other areas that become relevant,

00:58:08.955 --> 00:58:11.105
a relevant part of their experience.

00:58:11.105 --> 00:58:17.895
And I'll tell you, I, there's an,
there's an unschooling mother of five,

00:58:17.905 --> 00:58:25.235
who was the Dean at a private school
in Dubai, who got all of her kids

00:58:25.425 --> 00:58:29.895
into whatever university they wanted.

00:58:30.180 --> 00:58:38.080
Because she was able to distill their
information into, you know, this

00:58:38.090 --> 00:58:43.470
very unique package, educational
package that they were able to present

00:58:43.580 --> 00:58:46.190
to the college of their choice.

00:58:47.010 --> 00:58:52.230
And she taught me many things
as I do this for my clients.

00:58:52.550 --> 00:58:53.260
You know.

00:58:54.240 --> 00:58:58.280
Colleges, especially in the United
States, universities in the United

00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:03.080
States, which is where the majority of
my clients come from, are looking for

00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:06.900
those unique applications that stand out.

00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:11.560
They'll take the top 1 percent
of those or 2 percent of those

00:59:12.090 --> 00:59:17.830
versus the same transcript with
the same GPA and the same grades.

00:59:18.190 --> 00:59:20.660
that they see over and over
and over and over again.

00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:21.110
Don't they

00:59:21.150 --> 00:59:23.220
Rupert Isaacson: require,
don't they also require by law,

00:59:23.260 --> 00:59:24.820
a sort of GPA thing or not?

00:59:24.930 --> 00:59:25.940
Grade point average thing.

00:59:26.390 --> 00:59:30.380
Do they not require, like in England,
or that you've taken, you know, your

00:59:30.380 --> 00:59:34.410
SATs, or in England it would be your
GCSEs and your A levels or whatever.

00:59:35.770 --> 00:59:39.550
Are these now actually not necessary
to get into college, or you have to

00:59:39.550 --> 00:59:40.860
find a way of doing an equivalent?

00:59:41.570 --> 00:59:46.150
Lainie Libeti: Well, you see by law
and you're, you're making it seem as if

00:59:46.150 --> 00:59:52.460
there is a legal precedence dictating
who gets into college and who doesn't.

00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:56.780
Colleges determine via their
own system, whether it's a

00:59:56.780 --> 00:59:59.220
Cal State College, you know.

00:59:59.585 --> 01:00:03.495
And, and that system itself will
have its own set of regulations,

01:00:03.845 --> 01:00:07.195
or the private universities will
take whatever they're private.

01:00:07.225 --> 01:00:08.765
They'll take whatever they want,

01:00:09.305 --> 01:00:09.465
so there's

01:00:09.605 --> 01:00:10.725
Lainie Libeti: no law.

01:00:11.305 --> 01:00:17.045
I'm not so certain about the UK and if
they accept these types of students.

01:00:17.105 --> 01:00:18.065
I don't know.

01:00:18.295 --> 01:00:19.075
I think I need to, I

01:00:19.075 --> 01:00:20.175
Rupert Isaacson: think
I need to research it.

01:00:20.175 --> 01:00:23.255
Yeah, because I'm sort of, I'm
interviewing you from Germany.

01:00:24.485 --> 01:00:24.715
And

01:00:24.905 --> 01:00:26.535
Germany is very different.

01:00:26.875 --> 01:00:28.855
Also, there's a stricter.

01:00:29.500 --> 01:00:31.610
Rupert Isaacson: Well, there also
is no homeschooling in Germany.

01:00:31.620 --> 01:00:31.880
No,

01:00:31.930 --> 01:00:32.670
there isn't.

01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:33.290
There isn't.

01:00:34.290 --> 01:00:38.170
Rupert Isaacson: So, for example, if I
were to take my kids out of the country

01:00:38.200 --> 01:00:42.670
and homeschool them and want them to get
into a German university, they'd have

01:00:42.670 --> 01:00:45.800
to go and take some exams at some point.

01:00:46.410 --> 01:00:51.460
But one of the things I found with
Rowan, my son, there was, I remember

01:00:51.460 --> 01:00:56.650
at this one point I was driving him
in to sit a three hour math exam.

01:00:57.910 --> 01:00:59.780
And you've got to understand,
this is a kid who was non

01:00:59.780 --> 01:01:02.500
verbal, you know, incontinent.

01:01:03.130 --> 01:01:09.920
Massive tantrums, harming himself, and
then there I am, ten years later, driving

01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:16.130
him into this three hour math exam, and I
said to him, are you really gonna do that?

01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:20.470
And he went, yeah, I'm totally gonna do
that, but, like I said before, if I hadn't

01:01:20.470 --> 01:01:23.974
done all those years of movement method,
I wouldn't have been able to get that.

01:01:24.385 --> 01:01:31.015
But I guess my question is that if, if,
if I'm, I'm, I'm trying to anticipate

01:01:31.015 --> 01:01:34.915
what a listener might need to know
if they like, they're listening to

01:01:34.915 --> 01:01:36.215
go, Oh, I quite like to do that.

01:01:36.535 --> 01:01:44.695
But maybe I'm not American or maybe I, you
know, what are the various systems now?

01:01:45.195 --> 01:01:45.535
Okay.

01:01:45.545 --> 01:01:48.555
You're working mostly
with kids from the USA.

01:01:48.555 --> 01:01:51.655
Do you also work fairly
directly with colleges?

01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:57.030
And do you reach out to colleges and say,
Hey, I do this, you know, what are your

01:01:57.040 --> 01:01:58.380
parameters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:01:58.600 --> 01:01:59.750
Or is it really.

01:02:00.750 --> 01:02:02.760
You just help the teen and
then they go from there.

01:02:03.820 --> 01:02:05.260
Lainie Libeti: I just help the teen.

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:12.060
Yeah, I'm hands on with the teen So
my clients that I've worked with for

01:02:12.080 --> 01:02:16.710
the educational piece That's that's
only like maybe 10 percent of the

01:02:16.710 --> 01:02:20.880
work I do the majority of the work I
do is in the field of mental health,

01:02:21.270 --> 01:02:23.020
Rupert Isaacson: which we'll
get into in a second Yeah, yeah

01:02:23.075 --> 01:02:23.135
Lainie Libeti: I

01:02:24.275 --> 01:02:26.375
Rupert Isaacson: exhaust this
mind that I'm, that I'm, yeah

01:02:26.425 --> 01:02:31.315
Lainie Libeti: that piece is primarily
for, for students in the us and I, I,

01:02:31.435 --> 01:02:36.525
you know, again, I just don't know, I
just don't know the requirements for

01:02:36.525 --> 01:02:41.685
colleges in other countries, but there
are advocates that I'm networked with

01:02:42.135 --> 01:02:45.645
that are doing this work around the
world, but I just can't speak to it.

01:02:46.420 --> 01:02:46.750
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:02:46.790 --> 01:02:49.150
I'd be really interested to find
out because I think it's, it's

01:02:49.150 --> 01:02:51.410
something which a lot of parents
would really love to look at.

01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:53.480
And maybe assume that they can't.

01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:56.560
So I think I might go off and
do a little bit of research.

01:02:56.770 --> 01:02:57.390
Okay.

01:02:58.120 --> 01:02:59.190
Rupert Isaacson: What I come up with too.

01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:00.100
All right.

01:03:00.110 --> 01:03:02.390
So let's go into now to the
mental health side of what you do.

01:03:02.600 --> 01:03:04.710
How and why did you end
up in mental health?

01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:09.980
Because obviously what you did
was very good for mental health.

01:03:10.410 --> 01:03:14.380
You didn't necessarily have a
particular mental health crisis with

01:03:14.380 --> 01:03:17.505
you and Almost rather the opposite.

01:03:17.505 --> 01:03:19.865
You learned how to create
good mental health.

01:03:20.275 --> 01:03:29.335
So talk us how You ended up helping people
who are maybe not quite so fortunate

01:03:30.815 --> 01:03:35.345
Lainie Libeti: Well again, you know coming
from a background where there was a lot

01:03:35.345 --> 01:03:37.750
of Programming that I really wanted to

01:03:38.550 --> 01:03:38.820
reprogram.

01:03:38.870 --> 01:03:39.090
Right.

01:03:39.390 --> 01:03:39.560
You

01:03:39.560 --> 01:03:43.870
Lainie Libeti: know, I, I really
didn't like the, the belief that I

01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:48.430
had that something was wrong with me,
that I was bad, that I was too much.

01:03:49.810 --> 01:03:51.200
Oh, I had those beliefs.

01:03:51.260 --> 01:03:52.010
Oh, yeah.

01:03:52.020 --> 01:03:53.160
When some scale

01:03:53.160 --> 01:03:54.090
Rupert Isaacson: back,
let's hear about you.

01:03:54.090 --> 01:03:58.350
Then we need to know a bit
about your, your, well,

01:03:59.120 --> 01:04:03.410
Lainie Libeti: you know, basically, you
know, I grew up in a household where,

01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:09.760
you know, my mother was very controlling
and she yelled at me all the time.

01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:11.590
And I know kids were yelled at.

01:04:12.175 --> 01:04:15.305
You know, it was just normal.

01:04:15.305 --> 01:04:20.695
It was just a normal part of growing
up, but it also had enough has an

01:04:20.695 --> 01:04:24.315
effect on on a person's internal worlds.

01:04:24.315 --> 01:04:25.245
It really does.

01:04:25.295 --> 01:04:31.605
We create beliefs about ourselves
based on the upbringing that we have.

01:04:32.255 --> 01:04:37.165
And like I said, the hypervigilance
was a result of, of, you know,

01:04:37.165 --> 01:04:39.515
always being frightened, right?

01:04:39.545 --> 01:04:41.135
So I was frightened a lot.

01:04:41.165 --> 01:04:45.855
I, you know, I still have episodes
where if I hear people screaming, my

01:04:45.855 --> 01:04:51.625
nervous system is dysregulated and,
and I find my body physically crying.

01:04:51.805 --> 01:04:54.885
You know, I may not be like,
Oh, I'm going to start crying.

01:04:55.235 --> 01:04:59.760
But those are the sorts of nervous
nervous system responses that

01:04:59.770 --> 01:05:02.420
my body is programmed to do.

01:05:02.460 --> 01:05:04.840
And that comes along with belief systems.

01:05:04.840 --> 01:05:10.320
And I noticed in my early twenties, a
lot of history of, you know, being in

01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:12.150
relationships with the wrong people.

01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:13.460
Who did you think was

01:05:13.460 --> 01:05:14.100
Rupert Isaacson: wrong with you?

01:05:14.510 --> 01:05:17.980
What do, what do you, would you say
by the time you hit, say being married

01:05:18.030 --> 01:05:20.335
pregnancy or Early parent years.

01:05:20.615 --> 01:05:23.735
If you could, if someone had sat
you down on the psychiatrist's couch

01:05:23.745 --> 01:05:25.745
and said, What's wrong with you?

01:05:25.785 --> 01:05:27.575
What would have been like the
three things you'd have said?

01:05:28.265 --> 01:05:32.475
Lainie Libeti: Well, it would actually
be before that because I was already into

01:05:32.475 --> 01:05:34.575
my path of healing before Miro was born.

01:05:34.575 --> 01:05:38.655
I was 32 when he was born, but my
20s is when I really started this

01:05:38.685 --> 01:05:45.585
path and I I believed I was a bad
person always trying to do good.

01:05:45.585 --> 01:05:47.555
I believe that I was faulty.

01:05:47.565 --> 01:05:50.865
I believed I was too much for people.

01:05:51.405 --> 01:05:54.995
And then a lot of time I
believed I was not enough.

01:05:55.005 --> 01:06:02.795
You know, it was just like this, this
really deep mental, you know, I don't

01:06:02.795 --> 01:06:05.255
know if you swear on your, your podcast.

01:06:05.565 --> 01:06:06.095
Do you swear?

01:06:06.135 --> 01:06:06.445
Swear

01:06:06.485 --> 01:06:07.315
Rupert Isaacson: away, my love.

01:06:07.485 --> 01:06:10.905
Lainie Libeti: It was this deep
mental fuckery constantly happening

01:06:10.905 --> 01:06:16.505
in my head where the messages,
my, my internal voice was really

01:06:16.505 --> 01:06:18.485
mean, you know, she was a bitch.

01:06:19.230 --> 01:06:20.100
She was horrible.

01:06:20.910 --> 01:06:21.090
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:06:21.090 --> 01:06:21.240
Yeah.

01:06:21.680 --> 01:06:21.980
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:22.160
Yeah.

01:06:22.310 --> 01:06:23.500
You can't do this.

01:06:23.500 --> 01:06:24.380
You're not good enough.

01:06:24.420 --> 01:06:25.450
You're not this.

01:06:25.450 --> 01:06:29.500
You're not that you're not
capable of doing this and hearing

01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:33.620
those things and not knowing
what to do with those messages.

01:06:34.030 --> 01:06:39.630
Really, you know, again, my, my hyper
independence, again, trauma response,

01:06:40.010 --> 01:06:43.950
it, it kept me very, you know, on.

01:06:44.825 --> 01:06:48.615
On my path when something, you
know, had a red flag, which

01:06:48.625 --> 01:06:49.985
really the red flag was me.

01:06:50.025 --> 01:06:52.125
I'd leave, you know, my relationships.

01:06:52.125 --> 01:06:57.045
I was always the one to leave or I'd
pull him close and I'd push him away.

01:06:57.235 --> 01:06:58.165
I pull him close.

01:06:58.265 --> 01:07:00.985
I push him away right before
they're ready to leave me.

01:07:00.985 --> 01:07:01.405
I'd leave.

01:07:01.775 --> 01:07:03.234
So like this, this.

01:07:03.495 --> 01:07:08.765
Relationship dynamic that I was having
in my 20s was not working and the

01:07:08.765 --> 01:07:14.565
fuckery in my head was not really
conducive of being a healthy person.

01:07:14.765 --> 01:07:16.465
And I wanted to change that.

01:07:16.485 --> 01:07:17.785
I wanted that.

01:07:17.815 --> 01:07:19.675
I wanted to reprogram that.

01:07:19.955 --> 01:07:23.385
I wanted it to, to, to be something else.

01:07:23.385 --> 01:07:31.575
And so I don't deep, you know, and in
those years, And I learned quite a bit

01:07:31.575 --> 01:07:39.665
about how to heal some of, you know, I
had attachment wounds and how to create a

01:07:39.675 --> 01:07:42.125
healthy attachments and all of that stuff.

01:07:42.125 --> 01:07:44.725
So I had some background in using tools.

01:07:45.520 --> 01:07:49.030
But when I became a, and I did this
because I wanted to be a parent,

01:07:49.060 --> 01:07:53.140
I wanted to be a parent who didn't
parent the way I was parented.

01:07:53.460 --> 01:07:59.180
I did this because it was really important
to me to have these things healed.

01:07:59.450 --> 01:08:05.245
And when I finally became a parent at 32,
Like I was aware of my internal dialogue.

01:08:05.245 --> 01:08:10.425
I was in, I was aware of the voice and
I was able to turn the volume down.

01:08:10.425 --> 01:08:12.825
I use tools to turn that volume down.

01:08:13.205 --> 01:08:13.825
I use tools.

01:08:13.965 --> 01:08:14.905
Rupert Isaacson: If you
use, tell us about this.

01:08:14.965 --> 01:08:15.245
Well,

01:08:15.245 --> 01:08:21.105
Lainie Libeti: just by like one
very, very simple tool is by putting

01:08:21.105 --> 01:08:25.345
your attention towards that voice
and saying to that voice, instead of

01:08:25.405 --> 01:08:30.765
antagonizing it, I hear you and there
must be a wonderful message that you're

01:08:30.785 --> 01:08:33.005
trying to give to me to keep me safe.

01:08:33.795 --> 01:08:38.555
But I'm going to use this knob, and
I'm going to turn the volume down.

01:08:39.275 --> 01:08:43.435
So instead of antagonizing the
voice in my head, taming it.

01:08:44.315 --> 01:08:48.845
And then, through shadow work, I
was able to determine where those,

01:08:48.925 --> 01:08:50.825
those messages were coming from.

01:08:50.855 --> 01:08:51.295
Tell us what

01:08:51.295 --> 01:08:51.995
Rupert Isaacson: shadow work is.

01:08:52.365 --> 01:08:56.475
Lainie Libeti: Shadow work is dealing
with the parts of yourself that you've

01:08:56.495 --> 01:09:01.325
disowned, the parts of yourself that
were programmed and put into the shadow

01:09:01.345 --> 01:09:03.975
that are usually shrouded in shame.

01:09:04.715 --> 01:09:08.955
A lot of shame is given to you, right?

01:09:08.965 --> 01:09:14.555
It, you know, the, the, you're not
good enough and I'm not good enough.

01:09:14.595 --> 01:09:20.825
I'm too much for people
that came from my, my.

01:09:21.335 --> 01:09:26.885
Psychological development at the time
I was hearing the messages transformed

01:09:26.915 --> 01:09:28.955
into messages that made sense to me.

01:09:28.955 --> 01:09:34.015
So as a 3 year old or a 5 year old,
if I'm told to shut up, the only thing

01:09:34.015 --> 01:09:40.394
that that makes sense to me as a message
is I'm not worthy of being heard.

01:09:40.695 --> 01:09:47.595
Right, you know, I, I can't rationalize
beyond my emotional or psychological

01:09:47.605 --> 01:09:50.495
development because I am 5 years old.

01:09:50.535 --> 01:09:50.925
Right?

01:09:51.185 --> 01:09:53.285
So the message that that.

01:09:53.700 --> 01:09:59.260
gave me was I'm not good enough
to be heard, or I'm too much.

01:09:59.630 --> 01:10:04.830
And I take those identity pieces
and I put them into the shadows,

01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:09.000
the parts of myself, and I disown
them and I don't look at them.

01:10:09.330 --> 01:10:12.210
Yet, the voice of those shadows come up.

01:10:13.005 --> 01:10:17.335
You know, as part of my subconscious
voice, and that's what I was hearing.

01:10:17.645 --> 01:10:22.655
So I needed to go deeper and
not just quiet the voice.

01:10:22.955 --> 01:10:28.065
I needed to learn where those
those messages came from and heal

01:10:28.065 --> 01:10:32.495
some of those wounds that were
part of my childhood programming.

01:10:33.295 --> 01:10:35.245
And that became a big journey.

01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:39.350
That I embarked on and
still look, nobody's done.

01:10:39.400 --> 01:10:41.740
You're never done with
your own internal work.

01:10:42.040 --> 01:10:43.850
Rupert Isaacson: That's
effectively Jungian psychoanalysis.

01:10:43.850 --> 01:10:44.540
Yeah, that,

01:10:44.550 --> 01:10:46.970
Lainie Libeti: that,
that particular is yeah.

01:10:46.970 --> 01:10:48.860
Shadow work is all Jungian.

01:10:49.230 --> 01:10:49.610
Yeah.

01:10:51.550 --> 01:10:55.860
But I also used other tools, you
know, like the turning the voice down,

01:10:57.210 --> 01:10:57.760
I

01:10:57.800 --> 01:11:02.660
Lainie Libeti: used Byron Katie's, the
work, which I think is so powerful,

01:11:02.670 --> 01:11:08.360
which is just a way of separating
the thought, which becomes a belief.

01:11:08.370 --> 01:11:14.080
If you believe if, if you think of thought
enough times, that actually becomes a

01:11:14.390 --> 01:11:15.800
Rupert Isaacson: repetition
will make a belief.

01:11:15.890 --> 01:11:16.180
Absolutely.

01:11:16.420 --> 01:11:16.820
And

01:11:17.420 --> 01:11:21.600
Lainie Libeti: When you use Byron
Katie's work, you're separating the

01:11:21.660 --> 01:11:27.570
thought from the belief and you're
giving it space to question it and

01:11:27.570 --> 01:11:30.360
create new possible ways of thinking.

01:11:30.650 --> 01:11:35.170
So it creates new neural pathways
around that particular belief and

01:11:35.170 --> 01:11:41.760
it helps to loosen the strength or
the power of that limiting belief.

01:11:41.810 --> 01:11:42.320
So

01:11:42.510 --> 01:11:44.720
Rupert Isaacson: people might, people
might know who Jung was, Carl Jung.

01:11:45.245 --> 01:11:48.095
But who's, but tell us, people might
not know who Byron Katie was or is.

01:11:48.905 --> 01:11:52.795
Lainie Libeti: She's, she's you know,
somebody who has written self help books

01:11:52.795 --> 01:11:57.595
and she created this this tool called,
you know, quote unquote, the work.

01:11:57.915 --> 01:12:01.345
If you look Byron Katie up on the
internet, you'll find the work.

01:12:01.345 --> 01:12:05.005
It's four simple questions
and then you turn it around.

01:12:05.015 --> 01:12:07.745
So let's say I had the
belief I'm not good enough.

01:12:08.655 --> 01:12:10.995
You find ways to turn it around.

01:12:12.110 --> 01:12:15.960
And you start speaking the
words like, I am good enough.

01:12:15.970 --> 01:12:16.340
Okay.

01:12:16.340 --> 01:12:17.350
Well, that's pretty simple.

01:12:17.350 --> 01:12:18.810
That's a simple turnaround.

01:12:18.810 --> 01:12:21.110
Or how about nobody's good enough?

01:12:21.180 --> 01:12:27.760
Or, you know, good enough is not good
enough or good enough actually means

01:12:27.790 --> 01:12:32.380
being better or, you know, finding ways.

01:12:32.580 --> 01:12:37.330
To create new neural pathways
around the same thought, whether

01:12:37.330 --> 01:12:38.910
it's true or not doesn't matter.

01:12:39.160 --> 01:12:43.580
You're creating new neural
pathways by speaking an alternate

01:12:43.650 --> 01:12:46.720
way of that particular thought.

01:12:46.790 --> 01:12:49.390
Rupert Isaacson: Again, I'm just
looking this up as, as, as you speak.

01:12:49.830 --> 01:12:50.690
I've got, I love

01:12:50.690 --> 01:12:51.490
Lainie Libeti: her stuff.

01:12:51.490 --> 01:12:52.376
It

01:12:52.376 --> 01:12:54.148
Rupert Isaacson: is free

01:12:54.148 --> 01:12:55.034
Lainie Libeti: questions.

01:12:55.034 --> 01:12:56.670
Is it true?

01:12:57.010 --> 01:12:57.869
Rupert Isaacson: Thought is not a factor.

01:12:57.870 --> 01:12:58.150
Is it?

01:12:58.480 --> 01:12:59.690
One, is it true?

01:13:00.210 --> 01:13:01.740
Lainie Libeti: Is, are you sure it's true?

01:13:01.750 --> 01:13:01.800
Is

01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:03.140
Rupert Isaacson: it absolutely true?

01:13:03.280 --> 01:13:03.690
Lainie Libeti: Right.

01:13:03.690 --> 01:13:03.910
Is

01:13:03.910 --> 01:13:04.960
Rupert Isaacson: it 100 percent true?

01:13:05.500 --> 01:13:06.020
Lainie Libeti: Three,

01:13:06.070 --> 01:13:08.300
Rupert Isaacson: how does
this thought make me feel?

01:13:08.780 --> 01:13:09.480
Lainie Libeti: Right.

01:13:10.230 --> 01:13:14.760
And the feeling, when, before
you get to the last one, the

01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:17.700
feeling is where the charge is.

01:13:17.990 --> 01:13:22.200
And when you have the combination
of a repetition in thought,

01:13:22.200 --> 01:13:27.000
which is a belief and a charged
emotion, there's power in that.

01:13:27.010 --> 01:13:31.940
And sometimes it takes over
your, your rationality.

01:13:32.210 --> 01:13:33.950
And then the last question, go ahead.

01:13:34.755 --> 01:13:37.845
Rupert Isaacson: What would
things be like if I didn't feel

01:13:37.905 --> 01:13:39.345
if I didn't hold this belief?

01:13:40.155 --> 01:13:41.085
Lainie Libeti: Wow.

01:13:41.285 --> 01:13:42.765
And then you turn it around.

01:13:42.775 --> 01:13:46.595
So like all this together,
it's so incredibly powerful.

01:13:47.275 --> 01:13:49.165
That's another tool that I use.

01:13:49.195 --> 01:13:52.485
Obviously, I didn't create it, but
it's it's one of those tools that

01:13:52.485 --> 01:13:55.445
is mind blowing in mind changing.

01:13:55.455 --> 01:14:00.115
It's it can change your you don't
have to do a whole ton of research.

01:14:00.115 --> 01:14:03.505
You just need to do this one
tool and that alone is enough.

01:14:06.845 --> 01:14:07.435
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so

01:14:08.105 --> 01:14:08.695
go ahead.

01:14:10.465 --> 01:14:14.925
Lainie Libeti: Tools to me are one
of the most magical gifts, right?

01:14:16.665 --> 01:14:17.975
Rupert Isaacson: One hundred percent.

01:14:18.615 --> 01:14:21.085
Lainie Libeti: Yeah, go ahead.

01:14:21.935 --> 01:14:25.415
Rupert Isaacson: Well, this, this begs
another question, which is you, okay,

01:14:25.415 --> 01:14:26.575
you did all this work on yourself.

01:14:26.615 --> 01:14:33.405
You became a parent, and then
you use these tools to help you

01:14:33.435 --> 01:14:37.435
as a parent as well as yourself.

01:14:37.665 --> 01:14:41.285
And now you want to, there
was another parent involved.

01:14:41.385 --> 01:14:48.055
When you went with Miro, did you have
to justify that to his dad and, asked

01:14:48.055 --> 01:14:51.435
for permission to take him out of
the country and so on and so forth.

01:14:51.435 --> 01:14:54.485
And how did you, how
did you navigate that?

01:14:54.485 --> 01:14:56.305
Cause that also must've
been somewhat tricky.

01:14:58.495 --> 01:15:03.055
Lainie Libeti: Well, believe it or
not, Miro's father and I, we were

01:15:03.065 --> 01:15:07.105
best friends after we divorced,
we became co parents and we had

01:15:07.105 --> 01:15:08.905
a really wonderful relationship.

01:15:09.105 --> 01:15:12.035
He had been battling many, many.

01:15:12.285 --> 01:15:13.595
physical ailments.

01:15:13.595 --> 01:15:19.295
He had, you know, he had, he had things
from like cancer and he had he had so

01:15:19.295 --> 01:15:24.535
many struggles from, from his physical
wellbeing that he was always facing.

01:15:24.535 --> 01:15:27.475
And when we were married,
he, he had these things.

01:15:28.095 --> 01:15:32.795
And when we split, we
split before Miro was born.

01:15:33.715 --> 01:15:40.705
And part of that was, you know, I was,
I was Miro's father's primary caretaker,

01:15:41.425 --> 01:15:47.805
and he had healed and gotten better, but
I didn't want to be a parent and resent

01:15:47.805 --> 01:15:52.795
him and still be in the mode of parenting
him, and we split and it was amicable,

01:15:52.795 --> 01:15:56.205
and we remained best friends co parents.

01:15:57.025 --> 01:16:02.615
And when I had this idea to leave,
and he had, he had moved to another

01:16:02.615 --> 01:16:04.725
state, when I had this idea to leave.

01:16:05.295 --> 01:16:07.885
He was he's like, yeah, you go for it.

01:16:07.885 --> 01:16:09.195
This is what a great opportunity.

01:16:09.205 --> 01:16:09.935
You can do it.

01:16:09.935 --> 01:16:11.025
I'm I'm sick.

01:16:11.025 --> 01:16:12.165
I can't do this.

01:16:12.165 --> 01:16:13.165
I have to be here.

01:16:13.325 --> 01:16:13.975
Go do it.

01:16:14.075 --> 01:16:14.675
Rupert Isaacson: Thank God.

01:16:14.675 --> 01:16:15.085
Thank God.

01:16:15.085 --> 01:16:17.675
He wasn't somebody who was, you
know, controlling like nowhere.

01:16:17.685 --> 01:16:21.415
You taking my son, you know, down to
that dangerous place full of, you know,

01:16:21.525 --> 01:16:24.575
Lainie Libeti: no, no,
he was bless his heart.

01:16:24.575 --> 01:16:31.935
He was he was so supportive and really
saw the benefits that Miro was getting

01:16:31.945 --> 01:16:37.470
and He was a little trepidatious when
we wanted to, you know, continue the

01:16:37.480 --> 01:16:42.470
journey and he flew down to Guatemala
and stayed with us and saw our life and

01:16:42.470 --> 01:16:44.710
really felt better, but did go back.

01:16:44.810 --> 01:16:46.810
He was living in Arizona at the time.

01:16:48.140 --> 01:16:54.000
And just a few, few laters, a
few years later, a few years

01:16:54.100 --> 01:16:55.890
later, he did pass away.

01:16:55.900 --> 01:17:00.540
So, you know, it's,
it's, it's a sad story.

01:17:00.540 --> 01:17:04.050
We were actually on a teen retreat
with a group of teens in Peru

01:17:04.050 --> 01:17:07.130
when he passed away and it was.

01:17:07.670 --> 01:17:11.990
You know, it was emotional
and sad and, you know, it

01:17:11.990 --> 01:17:14.470
was, yeah, what an experience.

01:17:15.080 --> 01:17:19.650
And every time we go back to Peru
and go back to that same place, Miro

01:17:19.670 --> 01:17:23.690
had a visitation from his father
there, which was really amazing.

01:17:23.720 --> 01:17:28.050
But that was, gosh,
eight, nine years ago now.

01:17:31.575 --> 01:17:32.875
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

01:17:32.885 --> 01:17:41.135
So the complexity and healing and
caregiving and all of this, you know,

01:17:41.135 --> 01:17:50.105
tied up in this story you managed to
create a son who's mentally pretty cool

01:17:50.625 --> 01:17:53.875
because he's grown up in this optimal way.

01:17:56.125 --> 01:17:56.815
So.

01:17:57.565 --> 01:18:04.645
At what point do you fall into looking
after the mental health of teens and

01:18:04.645 --> 01:18:06.365
tweens who are not doing so well?

01:18:06.715 --> 01:18:08.595
How does that manifest?

01:18:08.605 --> 01:18:13.015
Because I would imagine that a lot of
them who are coming out of the world

01:18:13.015 --> 01:18:15.705
schooling environment are fairly happy.

01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:19.950
I would, I should imagine that they're
not being bullied at high school,

01:18:19.950 --> 01:18:25.500
they're not subject to those kinds of
peer pressures that, you know, so, yeah,

01:18:25.500 --> 01:18:28.440
talk, talk to us about mental health.

01:18:29.350 --> 01:18:34.530
Lainie Libeti: Well, I get all those
tools that I discovered in my 20s were

01:18:34.530 --> 01:18:38.510
a part of my sort of toolbox when I was.

01:18:38.875 --> 01:18:42.505
Facilitating teens at the
Project World School retreats.

01:18:43.035 --> 01:18:46.925
So I knew that tools could because
I'd used to my used among myself and

01:18:46.925 --> 01:18:53.185
I knew that tools were a powerful way
to work through anxiety of, you know,

01:18:53.265 --> 01:18:58.325
being homesick being outside of your,
your comfort zone for a period of time

01:18:58.325 --> 01:19:03.920
and in an environment that was really,
You know, challenging and new, right?

01:19:04.030 --> 01:19:07.840
You know, a lot of the teens that
I work with on the trips had never

01:19:07.840 --> 01:19:10.090
been outside of their home country.

01:19:10.110 --> 01:19:12.040
They weren't always world schoolers.

01:19:12.050 --> 01:19:15.850
Some of them were homeschoolers that
left for the 1st time for our trips.

01:19:16.515 --> 01:19:21.565
And so using these tools was really
like, I felt like I could facilitate

01:19:21.565 --> 01:19:24.095
anything because I had tools on my side.

01:19:24.095 --> 01:19:26.975
It wasn't me psychologist
because I'm not a psychologist.

01:19:27.165 --> 01:19:31.115
It was me facilitating tools in
partnership, and I've used the

01:19:31.115 --> 01:19:35.945
tools and I've overcome many of
these challenges in my own journey.

01:19:36.175 --> 01:19:40.440
And like I said, Working with
adolescents, working with teens

01:19:40.470 --> 01:19:46.400
helped me to sort of heal my inner
teen one, every, every single time.

01:19:46.720 --> 01:19:50.880
Like it was just so fulfilling to the,
the teen that lived inside of me that was

01:19:50.900 --> 01:19:54.550
never seen or heard or really understood.

01:19:55.380 --> 01:20:02.510
And when 2020 hit, boy, they're,
they're, you know, isolating teens,

01:20:02.510 --> 01:20:08.210
teens that This is an age group that
really needed social connection.

01:20:08.230 --> 01:20:12.710
The isolation really affected not
only the world schoolers, but the

01:20:12.710 --> 01:20:17.940
homeschoolers and all the other teens
that were in a sort of orbit that

01:20:17.940 --> 01:20:21.980
I, I worked in and I said, okay.

01:20:22.135 --> 01:20:23.365
We're not traveling.

01:20:23.465 --> 01:20:25.375
Let's meet online.

01:20:25.905 --> 01:20:33.685
And the meeting, I, I started these
free online sort of meetups and I would

01:20:33.685 --> 01:20:38.335
meet with them two hours every week
and we play games the first hour we

01:20:38.335 --> 01:20:40.960
talk philosophy or internal worlds.

01:20:40.960 --> 01:20:44.145
I call it philosophy because
it sort of takes it outside

01:20:44.145 --> 01:20:47.425
of the, the attention of them.

01:20:47.785 --> 01:20:52.275
It's something they can talk about and
be heard, but it usually always went back

01:20:52.275 --> 01:20:56.885
into, you know, what's going on inside
of them and what they say really matters.

01:20:57.385 --> 01:21:00.525
And then the 2nd hour, we'd
play a game of some sort.

01:21:00.525 --> 01:21:04.275
So it was this joyful connection
that they look forward to every week.

01:21:04.875 --> 01:21:06.315
And from that.

01:21:06.555 --> 01:21:12.405
Teens were messaging me because I had,
you know, 40, 50 teens joining every week

01:21:12.405 --> 01:21:14.885
and I'd facilitate this big online thing.

01:21:14.885 --> 01:21:19.065
And they'd messaged me privately,
Laney, what can I do about this?

01:21:19.165 --> 01:21:22.495
You know, I'm feeling this because
I was, I'm not their parent.

01:21:22.505 --> 01:21:26.425
I am a parent, but I'm not their parent
and I'm somebody that their parents

01:21:26.435 --> 01:21:31.545
trusted and it became like, oh, here's
this other adult that will give me this

01:21:31.565 --> 01:21:34.305
outside, you know, perspective and.

01:21:34.800 --> 01:21:37.620
So I, in essence, became a mentor to them.

01:21:38.290 --> 01:21:41.150
And then I started thinking,
well, wait a minute.

01:21:41.160 --> 01:21:46.780
Why don't I put together some courses to
empower them using these tools and I'll

01:21:46.780 --> 01:21:53.090
find more tools and get them this massive
tool kit that they can empower themselves

01:21:53.090 --> 01:21:54.710
and they can have another partner.

01:21:54.960 --> 01:21:57.850
Me and other teens, and we
could do this in community.

01:21:58.380 --> 01:22:03.220
And I started to put together this tool
kit and I started producing courses.

01:22:03.220 --> 01:22:08.950
So I got certified as a, you know,
life coach, a confidence coach.

01:22:09.430 --> 01:22:14.780
And then I, I opened up transformative
mentoring for teens and started

01:22:14.940 --> 01:22:16.920
teaching them these tools.

01:22:17.380 --> 01:22:23.805
So, It was needed in, in a time of,
you know, the world was shut down

01:22:24.235 --> 01:22:31.765
and in 2021, I actually wrote a book
about parenting kids in partnership,

01:22:31.775 --> 01:22:33.565
parenting teens in partnership.

01:22:34.325 --> 01:22:36.723
And I included the title of

01:22:36.723 --> 01:22:37.234
Rupert Isaacson: the book.

01:22:38.065 --> 01:22:41.065
Lainie Libeti: The book is
called Seen, Heard and Understood

01:22:41.395 --> 01:22:45.395
Parenting and Partnering with
Teens for Greater Mental Health.

01:22:46.055 --> 01:22:50.275
And many of the tools that I have
been talking about or that I teach

01:22:50.275 --> 01:22:55.835
in my courses are in that book
to empower parents to facilitate

01:22:55.835 --> 01:23:02.110
these tools with their teens and
to understand the You know, the

01:23:02.120 --> 01:23:07.700
psychological and neurobiological
development of teens while they're

01:23:07.710 --> 01:23:09.590
parenting, if they have no background.

01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:15.900
And it's written from, from my
perspective, but in academic perspective

01:23:15.910 --> 01:23:19.750
from a non academic, I'm, I don't
have a degree in any of this stuff.

01:23:19.990 --> 01:23:21.350
I'm a self directed learner.

01:23:21.930 --> 01:23:28.940
But it's also from the perspective of a
parent who really wanted to support their

01:23:28.940 --> 01:23:33.780
teen and all the other teens that I've
been working with so that people reading

01:23:33.780 --> 01:23:39.220
the book can support their community
and their families and in the same way.

01:23:39.740 --> 01:23:43.620
Rupert Isaacson: What's the most
important thing that parents of teens

01:23:43.620 --> 01:23:46.250
need to understand on the neurobiology?

01:23:47.070 --> 01:23:49.310
Everyone knows about hormones, but

01:23:49.490 --> 01:23:51.310
Sure, yeah, I know right
about hormones too.

01:23:51.830 --> 01:23:56.850
Rupert Isaacson: But beyond that there
are hormones, what, yeah, what, what

01:23:56.860 --> 01:24:01.410
do people not know that they, if they
knew it would be easier and better?

01:24:02.055 --> 01:24:03.675
Lainie Libeti: Well,
there's a couple of things.

01:24:03.675 --> 01:24:09.365
First of all, the, the hormonal, you
know, the, the receptors in the brain

01:24:11.085 --> 01:24:19.585
that recept, not adrenaline endorphins are
the, they're, they have the most receptors

01:24:19.585 --> 01:24:21.855
than any other time in a human's life.

01:24:21.855 --> 01:24:24.635
And so the high of endorphins.

01:24:24.830 --> 01:24:28.750
Emotions are something that's
really, really important to teens.

01:24:28.790 --> 01:24:37.250
And then the neurobiological side,
the part that is really in, in in, in

01:24:37.250 --> 01:24:44.860
the forefront that regulates emotions
is also hyperdeveloped where the

01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:47.380
other parts of the brain are not.

01:24:47.390 --> 01:24:48.150
So the

01:24:48.200 --> 01:24:52.880
Rupert Isaacson: amygdala is, is,
is, is like your nose gets a bit big

01:24:52.890 --> 01:24:55.240
before the rest of your face It does.

01:24:55.240 --> 01:24:56.459
It does.

01:24:56.620 --> 01:24:56.720
It does.

01:24:56.720 --> 01:24:57.100
I mean.

01:24:57.350 --> 01:24:59.210
Big before the rest of
your brain catches up.

01:24:59.290 --> 01:24:59.560
Yeah.

01:25:00.280 --> 01:25:01.040
Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

01:25:01.180 --> 01:25:01.380
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:25:01.500 --> 01:25:04.070
Lainie Libeti: And the
reason, so you've got.

01:25:04.070 --> 01:25:04.130
Same thing

01:25:04.390 --> 01:25:05.750
Rupert Isaacson: happens when
you're a toddler, by the way.

01:25:06.835 --> 01:25:07.655
Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

01:25:08.095 --> 01:25:10.975
And so you've got these things
happening at the same time.

01:25:10.975 --> 01:25:17.995
And so teens don't have the ability to
project as well consequences and the

01:25:18.095 --> 01:25:25.455
thrill of, of receiving an endorphin rush
or an emotional high about something.

01:25:25.455 --> 01:25:30.675
And all of these things are
happening from a neurobiological

01:25:30.675 --> 01:25:33.539
perspective while they're starting
to psychologically Exactly.

01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:34.600
Individuate.

01:25:34.910 --> 01:25:40.080
That means their friend groups
are a bigger influence on them.

01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:45.640
And, and if you can imagine not being able
to perceive consequences of their actions

01:25:45.660 --> 01:25:51.070
or for forecast, what could happen.

01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:55.530
As a result, which is, of course,
a consequence, but like what the

01:25:55.530 --> 01:26:00.110
forecast could be and how that
could ripple into their lives.

01:26:00.130 --> 01:26:07.080
If they don't have that biological
ability, then we need to help

01:26:07.080 --> 01:26:13.540
supplement and support them by helping
them reflect in a way that's not

01:26:13.540 --> 01:26:16.250
authoritarian, but in partnership of.

01:26:16.395 --> 01:26:17.785
Exactly where they are.

01:26:17.785 --> 01:26:19.335
We know that they're individuating.

01:26:19.595 --> 01:26:22.025
We know how important
their friend groups are.

01:26:22.285 --> 01:26:25.175
We know about peer pressures.

01:26:25.175 --> 01:26:30.075
We know about all of these, you
know, drugs and, and sex and,

01:26:30.105 --> 01:26:32.275
and all of the other, you know,

01:26:32.455 --> 01:26:32.805
Rupert Isaacson: producers.

01:26:33.035 --> 01:26:33.915
Yeah, basically.

01:26:34.065 --> 01:26:34.335
Yeah.

01:26:34.915 --> 01:26:37.935
Lainie Libeti: All of these things are
an important part of a teen's life.

01:26:38.005 --> 01:26:41.265
Well, it's part of them is
we navigate these journeys.

01:26:42.090 --> 01:26:48.940
Yeah, knowing those biological,
you know, not deficiencies, they're

01:26:49.050 --> 01:26:51.170
also superpowers in many ways.

01:26:51.240 --> 01:26:51.420
They are.

01:26:51.420 --> 01:26:51.810
Well, they also have

01:26:52.090 --> 01:26:53.590
Rupert Isaacson: a
biological imperative, right?

01:26:53.630 --> 01:26:58.530
I mean, it's, it's, the risk is necessary,
you know, because you have to go test

01:26:58.530 --> 01:27:04.320
yourself and say, can you go with
your spear into the bush and come back

01:27:04.320 --> 01:27:06.140
with a wildebeest and dodge the lions.

01:27:06.450 --> 01:27:09.730
And, you are gonna have to get
ready to reproduce the species.

01:27:09.730 --> 01:27:12.450
And all of these things are ramping up.

01:27:12.480 --> 01:27:14.580
They're not, they're all
there for a reason of course.

01:27:15.110 --> 01:27:18.020
But of course, modern, modern
life can get in the way.

01:27:18.200 --> 01:27:20.530
But what get Yeah.

01:27:21.530 --> 01:27:27.380
When parents find themselves on
the in conflict with this Yeah.

01:27:27.380 --> 01:27:29.330
What can they do to not
be in conflict with it?

01:27:30.570 --> 01:27:33.180
Lainie Libeti: Well, what I
was gonna say is we also have.

01:27:33.835 --> 01:27:40.615
The pressures of cultural fears and
especially coming from 2020 and, and

01:27:40.625 --> 01:27:45.945
all of the changes the planet is in
right now, there are, there are these

01:27:45.945 --> 01:27:53.875
cultural memes of, of, you know,
fears around how people need to be

01:27:54.255 --> 01:27:58.035
and fear people control out of fear.

01:27:58.645 --> 01:28:00.825
And if you control, we're not.

01:28:01.270 --> 01:28:06.670
Going to the, our teens are not going
to be able to take healthy risks.

01:28:06.940 --> 01:28:07.220
Yeah.

01:28:07.750 --> 01:28:11.680
Lainie Libeti: So it's going up
against what can parents do first.

01:28:11.680 --> 01:28:16.290
They have to be aware of all that's
going around, all that's happening

01:28:16.290 --> 01:28:17.950
in their teens development.

01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:21.499
They have to have an understanding of it.

01:28:22.370 --> 01:28:27.270
If they don't, they alienate the teen and
say, you're irrational, you know, don't

01:28:27.280 --> 01:28:32.490
slam the door when, when you walk in the
room, you know, and there's no connection.

01:28:32.500 --> 01:28:34.600
My book is all about connection.

01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:39.520
Action is the only way to
support a team through all of

01:28:39.540 --> 01:28:42.370
these, these changes, right?

01:28:42.980 --> 01:28:47.580
And also being aware of the
societal messaging and fears.

01:28:47.930 --> 01:28:49.720
That are a part of our reality.

01:28:49.730 --> 01:28:50.890
We can't escape them.

01:28:51.180 --> 01:28:52.130
We can't escape them.

01:28:52.440 --> 01:28:55.420
How do we process those
things in a healthy way?

01:28:56.300 --> 01:28:58.380
How do we process them in a way?

01:28:58.380 --> 01:29:00.870
That's in alignment with our own values.

01:29:01.740 --> 01:29:03.370
We don't want to be controlled.

01:29:03.610 --> 01:29:06.140
We want to make decisions.

01:29:06.480 --> 01:29:13.910
And take healthy risks and part of
the societal messaging right now

01:29:13.910 --> 01:29:20.940
is also preventing those healthy
risks and, and, you know, making

01:29:20.970 --> 01:29:24.830
our, our species evolve, right?

01:29:24.830 --> 01:29:27.540
We need each generation to evolve.

01:29:29.560 --> 01:29:32.970
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

01:29:32.970 --> 01:29:37.650
guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

01:29:37.650 --> 01:29:41.550
just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

01:29:41.570 --> 01:29:45.260
about the relationship with nature.

01:29:45.710 --> 01:29:48.890
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

01:29:49.630 --> 01:29:52.580
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

01:29:52.590 --> 01:29:57.270
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

01:29:57.270 --> 01:30:01.730
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

01:30:02.430 --> 01:30:07.400
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

01:30:07.460 --> 01:30:09.610
what started Live Free Ride Free.

01:30:09.630 --> 01:30:13.410
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

01:30:13.410 --> 01:30:15.900
Land, which tells the story of.

01:30:16.605 --> 01:30:21.995
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

01:30:21.995 --> 01:30:26.155
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

01:30:26.405 --> 01:30:27.665
Come on that adventure with me.

01:30:27.689 --> 01:30:29.999
Where in your view does
nature come into this?

01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:32.239
Lainie Libeti: I'm sorry, say that again?

01:30:32.299 --> 01:30:34.779
Rupert Isaacson: Where in your
view does nature come into this?

01:30:35.299 --> 01:30:38.939
Lainie Libeti: I mean, we're talking about
biological development, that is nature.

01:30:39.039 --> 01:30:42.779
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, but people
are not living, for the most part, in

01:30:43.249 --> 01:30:45.609
the environment that their biology is.

01:30:45.649 --> 01:30:47.829
Lainie Libeti: I thought you
meant nature versus nurture.

01:30:47.869 --> 01:30:49.759
Okay, okay, okay, nature.

01:30:50.299 --> 01:30:52.529
Oh, such a huge part of this.

01:30:52.609 --> 01:31:02.299
Yeah, it's, it's an untouched, um,
what's the word I'm looking for?

01:31:03.689 --> 01:31:06.499
System that can teach us.

01:31:07.969 --> 01:31:15.539
To, if we can adapt to become more in
alignment with nature, with animals, with,

01:31:15.899 --> 01:31:23.159
with, with the, the, with the system of,
of, you know, birth, death growth, you

01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:33.089
know, all, all the, all of the ecology of
nature, that if we can, once again, be.

01:31:33.559 --> 01:31:38.769
Mirroring those systems versus some
of the artificial systems that our

01:31:38.769 --> 01:31:43.559
teens have been, you know, thrust
to in front of, like, we're talking

01:31:43.559 --> 01:31:47.789
about the computer where you and,
you know, it's a tool, a tool.

01:31:47.809 --> 01:31:48.549
Tools are great.

01:31:48.569 --> 01:31:49.569
Video games are great.

01:31:49.799 --> 01:31:53.749
I'm not an anti video game person,
but if that is a person's only world,

01:31:53.789 --> 01:31:55.829
that becomes their entire biosphere.

01:31:56.259 --> 01:31:56.479
Right?

01:31:57.169 --> 01:32:03.699
We need to be able to balance nature,
who is the biggest gift and the biggest

01:32:03.759 --> 01:32:10.819
teacher to all of this, you know, but
it's not just team go out in nature.

01:32:10.829 --> 01:32:12.169
It's family.

01:32:12.169 --> 01:32:18.149
What can we do as a family, as a unit,
as a culture, as even society to be

01:32:18.149 --> 01:32:22.759
able to, to integrate nature as part of.

01:32:23.184 --> 01:32:28.324
our soul, our, our being, our,
our very essence, our presence.

01:32:28.964 --> 01:32:29.494
Yeah.

01:32:29.524 --> 01:32:29.714
I'm,

01:32:29.764 --> 01:32:31.534
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm, I'm
with you a hundred percent.

01:32:31.724 --> 01:32:34.054
I feel that one's best.

01:32:35.509 --> 01:32:39.249
Shots of family really is to
do stuff in nature together.

01:32:39.799 --> 01:32:43.789
That does involve some risk because
nature always inevitably does.

01:32:44.199 --> 01:32:49.129
But where you learn to navigate those
because that's what our biology.

01:32:51.214 --> 01:32:55.224
I do know though that, you know,
the vast majority of people are not

01:32:55.224 --> 01:32:59.134
living that way whether, whether
voluntarily or involuntarily.

01:32:59.934 --> 01:33:02.784
If people are not able to

01:33:04.964 --> 01:33:10.384
go swim with dolphins, dodge elephants
and train horses as part of their

01:33:10.384 --> 01:33:16.334
family culture, what's your formula for?

01:33:17.144 --> 01:33:22.994
Using nature like this with teens
and tweens in a way that is more

01:33:22.994 --> 01:33:25.804
accessible to people who don't
have a family culture of this.

01:33:27.074 --> 01:33:28.714
Lainie Libeti: Well, I mean,
that is one of the reasons why

01:33:28.714 --> 01:33:30.184
we created Project World School.

01:33:30.954 --> 01:33:33.564
You know, a lot of it is in nature.

01:33:33.584 --> 01:33:39.034
A lot of that is the cultural
connection to, to nature, human

01:33:39.034 --> 01:33:41.154
connection to the environment.

01:33:41.924 --> 01:33:45.104
But this is going to be a little,
this answer is going to be a

01:33:45.104 --> 01:33:48.784
little sort of outside of what
you think I'm going to answer.

01:33:48.784 --> 01:33:54.214
So, you know, get to nature, make
plans, do it, go have an adventure.

01:33:54.214 --> 01:34:00.444
Adventures are so important, but the other
thing is, if you are stuck in a rural

01:34:00.454 --> 01:34:04.444
city and you really can't access nature.

01:34:05.704 --> 01:34:07.394
You're not going to believe this answer.

01:34:07.994 --> 01:34:09.504
Play board games together.

01:34:10.344 --> 01:34:10.834
Okay, go

01:34:10.834 --> 01:34:11.024
on.

01:34:11.684 --> 01:34:13.504
Lainie Libeti: Because
the, the playfulness

01:34:15.549 --> 01:34:20.809
If we can access our playfulness
as a family, and you can even find

01:34:20.809 --> 01:34:22.519
board games that are based on nature.

01:34:22.519 --> 01:34:24.729
And if you want to go down
that path, that's fine.

01:34:25.179 --> 01:34:30.019
But what I'm saying is cultivate
a culture within your family where

01:34:30.049 --> 01:34:35.349
playfulness is one of the foundations
because through playfulness.

01:34:35.949 --> 01:34:38.299
You can access imagination.

01:34:38.379 --> 01:34:43.109
You can access creativity, and
you can access problem solving.

01:34:43.399 --> 01:34:50.929
And all of those things can be, you know,
part of a really extraordinary experience.

01:34:50.939 --> 01:34:55.649
And let me tell you, if you're a family
that plays board games together, when

01:34:55.729 --> 01:35:02.779
you get out into nature, it becomes
this adventure like experience, right?

01:35:03.124 --> 01:35:04.754
You have the training.

01:35:05.284 --> 01:35:10.074
If you're stuck in a rural area, you
have the training to take risks, to

01:35:10.074 --> 01:35:16.194
push your luck, to, you know, create
a strategic make a strategic choice.

01:35:16.604 --> 01:35:19.474
I love board games, you know, for that.

01:35:19.474 --> 01:35:20.004
Were you always into

01:35:20.004 --> 01:35:20.604
Rupert Isaacson: board games?

01:35:21.054 --> 01:35:22.589
Or was that a later in life thing?

01:35:22.969 --> 01:35:24.239
Lainie Libeti: Always, always.

01:35:24.449 --> 01:35:29.809
And in fact, part of the family culture of
Miro and I, we traveled with a game bag.

01:35:29.899 --> 01:35:35.179
Like, they were such an important
part of our family culture that, yeah,

01:35:35.199 --> 01:35:36.779
it's always been a big part of it.

01:35:37.249 --> 01:35:38.429
Rupert Isaacson: What's
your game of choice?

01:35:39.789 --> 01:35:40.689
Lainie Libeti: Right now?

01:35:42.699 --> 01:35:43.189
Right now and

01:35:43.569 --> 01:35:44.224
Rupert Isaacson: over time.

01:35:44.224 --> 01:35:46.699
And like, and, and, or do
you have games of choice for

01:35:46.699 --> 01:35:50.359
particular psychological seasons?

01:35:50.434 --> 01:35:53.474
Lainie Libeti: I mean, I probably do.

01:35:54.024 --> 01:35:58.224
I'm really immersed in the
board game culture right now

01:35:58.244 --> 01:36:00.144
because we own a board game cafe.

01:36:00.144 --> 01:36:00.864
Believe it or not.

01:36:01.914 --> 01:36:02.154
Yeah.

01:36:02.204 --> 01:36:02.554
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:36:02.824 --> 01:36:03.814
Wait, my son and I.

01:36:04.514 --> 01:36:05.334
I love it.

01:36:05.414 --> 01:36:09.264
So six months ago, we opened one
here and in Guanajuato, Mexico, and

01:36:09.264 --> 01:36:15.384
it's the only board game cafe and the
central part of of the city and state.

01:36:16.134 --> 01:36:17.894
And it's wonderful.

01:36:17.904 --> 01:36:21.484
So I'm diving into all these new board
games and different types of strategy.

01:36:21.484 --> 01:36:26.949
And my son is making games, which is It's
so amazing to but what is my favorite?

01:36:26.979 --> 01:36:33.769
I mean, there's so many, I love social
deduction games like werewolf and, and

01:36:33.789 --> 01:36:35.619
secret Hitler and things like that.

01:36:36.199 --> 01:36:37.289
I know what a funny,

01:36:37.819 --> 01:36:39.619
Rupert Isaacson: but
yeah, I'll go find out.

01:36:40.114 --> 01:36:42.004
Lainie Libeti: There's such a secret.

01:36:42.194 --> 01:36:46.754
Secret Hitler is a lot of
fun and it's, it's funny.

01:36:46.754 --> 01:36:48.414
And you're in Germany right now.

01:36:49.044 --> 01:36:50.034
It's, it's

01:36:50.574 --> 01:36:51.094
Rupert Isaacson: under the bed.

01:36:51.944 --> 01:36:55.074
Lainie Libeti: No, it's you,
everybody creates a role.

01:36:55.074 --> 01:36:58.764
You're either a liberal or, or
a fascist and you have to pass.

01:36:58.909 --> 01:37:02.399
You know, the game is you go through
the order and there's a president and

01:37:02.399 --> 01:37:04.229
a chancellor and you have to vote.

01:37:04.279 --> 01:37:09.119
And if the chancellor is the secret role
of Hitler, then, of course, the game is

01:37:09.119 --> 01:37:14.589
over and you have all these discussions
and you pass these different you know,

01:37:15.429 --> 01:37:19.039
It's a lot of fun, but Werewolf is kind
of like Mafia, and you can play with big

01:37:19.049 --> 01:37:24.239
groups of people, and I play these with
teens a lot, and those are wonderful

01:37:24.249 --> 01:37:29.469
games, but I also love strategy games,
you know, I love, there is a nature

01:37:29.469 --> 01:37:34.569
game that I love it's called Cascadia,
and it's one of my favorite board games

01:37:34.609 --> 01:37:37.049
now, Cascadia but I like Cascadia,

01:37:38.049 --> 01:37:40.449
Rupert Isaacson: what is
that, tell us about that one?

01:37:40.949 --> 01:37:45.049
Lainie Libeti: It's, it's a sort
of like an abstract puzzle game

01:37:45.059 --> 01:37:47.469
that you're playing your own board.

01:37:47.479 --> 01:37:52.879
You're building environments
that connect different animals,

01:37:52.969 --> 01:37:54.739
attract different animals on it.

01:37:54.919 --> 01:38:00.509
You know, you've got water areas and
you've got, mountains and savannas and

01:38:00.509 --> 01:38:02.089
Rupert Isaacson: ecological
management type thing.

01:38:02.119 --> 01:38:03.519
Lainie Libeti: Yeah,
that's exactly what it is.

01:38:03.519 --> 01:38:05.559
And you put different animals on them.

01:38:05.559 --> 01:38:11.009
So there's hawks and, and
salmon and in the water and

01:38:11.009 --> 01:38:13.239
bears and, and foxes and stuff.

01:38:13.239 --> 01:38:17.339
So yeah, it's, it's a puzzle game,
but it is ecological management.

01:38:17.349 --> 01:38:18.439
So I love that.

01:38:18.459 --> 01:38:18.789
It's really

01:38:18.789 --> 01:38:21.569
Rupert Isaacson: interesting what you
say about game playing, because I'm,

01:38:21.619 --> 01:38:23.089
I'm a great believer in tracking.

01:38:24.829 --> 01:38:28.309
You know, a lot of time growing
up hunting and then having lived

01:38:28.309 --> 01:38:31.059
with hunting gathering tribes, and
that's always been a big part of

01:38:31.109 --> 01:38:33.219
my life and the idea of tracking.

01:38:33.229 --> 01:38:37.379
You don't have to be hunting
in order to track tracking

01:38:37.379 --> 01:38:39.299
informs hunting, but tracking.

01:38:39.779 --> 01:38:42.169
In and of itself is an amazing thing.

01:38:42.799 --> 01:38:46.009
But what really, I think as a human,
we are always tracking cause we're,

01:38:46.129 --> 01:38:48.279
we're a hunter gatherer species.

01:38:48.599 --> 01:38:50.189
So we're also tracking plants.

01:38:50.189 --> 01:38:51.219
We're also tracking the weather.

01:38:51.219 --> 01:38:52.399
We're also tracking ideas.

01:38:52.399 --> 01:38:54.059
We're also tracking the spirit world.

01:38:54.059 --> 01:38:57.669
We're also tracking emotions.

01:38:58.139 --> 01:39:01.389
We're not just tracking that animal
track right there, but that animal

01:39:01.389 --> 01:39:03.419
track right there is where it begins.

01:39:03.769 --> 01:39:04.329
And.

01:39:04.679 --> 01:39:07.569
I feel that games actually
are an extension of that.

01:39:07.599 --> 01:39:10.079
I always have felt that
they're an extension of that.

01:39:10.609 --> 01:39:12.969
And they're to some degree an
altered state of consciousness,

01:39:12.999 --> 01:39:17.059
because you roleplay, you go into
it, and then you build your empathy.

01:39:18.029 --> 01:39:19.889
Which is exactly what you have
to do with hunting and gathering.

01:39:19.889 --> 01:39:22.879
You have to become Kudu, or you
have to become Ayahuasca, or

01:39:22.879 --> 01:39:24.949
whatever, to know how to handle it.

01:39:25.379 --> 01:39:28.229
I was in Austin, Texas about a year ago.

01:39:29.949 --> 01:39:32.219
And I wandered into this cafe.

01:39:33.819 --> 01:39:36.579
There were all these
people playing board games.

01:39:37.294 --> 01:39:37.504
Love it.

01:39:37.604 --> 01:39:37.854
And I

01:39:37.854 --> 01:39:40.204
Rupert Isaacson: looked around and you
could order a pizza and you could have

01:39:40.204 --> 01:39:43.534
a beer and I was like, this is genius.

01:39:43.984 --> 01:39:47.024
And I had it in the back of my mind
and I could just see the community

01:39:47.224 --> 01:39:48.844
and I could feel the happiness.

01:39:48.974 --> 01:39:53.084
You talked about endorphins and dopamine,
you know, but you're also getting oxytocin

01:39:53.094 --> 01:39:56.794
with that because it's, you know, and
serotonin because it's, it's social and

01:39:57.684 --> 01:40:01.564
you could, you could like eat the good
hormones as you walked into that place.

01:40:01.574 --> 01:40:01.824
It was like.

01:40:02.494 --> 01:40:03.104
Wow.

01:40:03.254 --> 01:40:06.184
And like, I looked around because I'm
always on, you know, psychological

01:40:06.184 --> 01:40:07.654
safari because I'm an autism dad.

01:40:07.974 --> 01:40:11.474
And I'm like, Oh yeah, like a good
60 percent of the people in here

01:40:11.474 --> 01:40:12.984
are on the spectrum and da da da.

01:40:12.984 --> 01:40:14.604
And it's community.

01:40:15.014 --> 01:40:18.954
I've seen this in other places, like in
the Ren Faire community and the LARPing

01:40:18.954 --> 01:40:22.484
community, the live action role play
community and things like this, which are.

01:40:24.019 --> 01:40:25.039
Really the same thing.

01:40:25.609 --> 01:40:30.449
But the idea of sitting together in
this way, and so it's really interesting

01:40:30.449 --> 01:40:34.359
to me that before we hit record,
you're saying, Oh, yeah, my latest

01:40:34.359 --> 01:40:36.439
thing, we're got a ballgame cafe.

01:40:36.439 --> 01:40:40.349
And of course, of course, Lainey has a
ballgame because she does that curve.

01:40:40.369 --> 01:40:43.629
Yeah, of course, she'll then have like
a chain of them, you know, through

01:40:43.629 --> 01:40:49.399
the world, you know, by the time we do
our next podcast, probably well, it's

01:40:49.399 --> 01:40:55.239
inevitable with you, I think,  what gave
you the idea to open a board game cafe?

01:40:55.239 --> 01:40:56.219
It's a great idea

01:40:57.529 --> 01:41:01.799
Lainie Libeti: Well, because every time
we get to a new country or a new city,

01:41:02.039 --> 01:41:04.109
my son and I would always like, look up.

01:41:04.129 --> 01:41:05.829
Is there a board game cafe here?

01:41:06.549 --> 01:41:07.749
And we've been to board

01:41:08.279 --> 01:41:08.869
Rupert Isaacson: game cafes.

01:41:08.869 --> 01:41:09.809
How long have they been a thing?

01:41:10.374 --> 01:41:12.754
Lainie Libeti: Oh, they've
been around for ages.

01:41:12.804 --> 01:41:16.214
Our favorite was in
Thailand in Chiang Mai.

01:41:16.604 --> 01:41:21.234
And I'm, we're, 10 years ago, we
found this wonderful board game cafe.

01:41:21.234 --> 01:41:26.134
And before we opened up our own
board game cafe, I reached out to the

01:41:26.134 --> 01:41:27.504
owner who became a friend of ours.

01:41:27.504 --> 01:41:31.164
And he, you know, we had these
wonderful conversations about.

01:41:31.654 --> 01:41:33.654
What to do and how to do it.

01:41:33.664 --> 01:41:37.014
But yeah, it was just our thing.

01:41:37.014 --> 01:41:38.104
We love board games.

01:41:38.104 --> 01:41:43.754
So we would always just look up, you know,
we've been to 40 something countries.

01:41:43.754 --> 01:41:45.094
You know, we've been around the world.

01:41:45.314 --> 01:41:47.504
We didn't just stay in Latin America.

01:41:47.514 --> 01:41:53.054
So we've been in Southeast Asia
through Europe into Africa as well.

01:41:53.054 --> 01:41:57.524
So, you 16 years has taken
us many, many places.

01:41:57.524 --> 01:42:00.464
And well, board game cafes was like, okay.

01:42:00.764 --> 01:42:04.984
Japan, board game cafe, cat board game,
wherever we went, it didn't matter.

01:42:05.874 --> 01:42:08.244
Rupert Isaacson: And when you go to
them, and it's just the two of you,

01:42:08.324 --> 01:42:11.424
would you then automatically fall
in with other people to play with?

01:42:12.299 --> 01:42:15.259
Lainie Libeti: Sometimes, yeah,
sometimes because there's,

01:42:15.289 --> 01:42:17.529
there are some of them require

01:42:17.529 --> 01:42:18.969
Rupert Isaacson: quite a lot
of people to play, right?

01:42:19.099 --> 01:42:20.049
Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

01:42:21.439 --> 01:42:26.919
One of my son's favorite game is Cosmic
Encounters and it's, we played that

01:42:26.969 --> 01:42:31.819
all around the world and you need at
least four people to play that game.

01:42:32.489 --> 01:42:32.609
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:32.659 --> 01:42:33.229
Okay.

01:42:33.299 --> 01:42:35.479
So how, when you walk into.

01:42:37.039 --> 01:42:42.829
A board game cafe in Casablanca and
you don't know anyone and the guy

01:42:42.829 --> 01:42:45.269
says, of all the board game cafes
in all the towns in all the world,

01:42:45.269 --> 01:42:46.519
you had to walk into this one.

01:42:46.519 --> 01:42:47.529
I had to get that in there.

01:42:48.079 --> 01:42:52.139
How do you then break the ice with the
locals, and particularly if there's a

01:42:52.139 --> 01:42:54.309
language barrier, to then start playing?

01:42:55.799 --> 01:42:57.659
Lainie Libeti: I mean,
it's different every time.

01:42:57.949 --> 01:43:04.249
Sometimes there's a table with people,
you know, or you ask the board game.

01:43:04.739 --> 01:43:09.909
Cafe, you know, the, the, the person
behind the desk or, or the waitress

01:43:09.909 --> 01:43:12.679
or whatever the, the game master.

01:43:12.749 --> 01:43:13.529
Yes, them.

01:43:14.099 --> 01:43:14.749
You just.

01:43:15.479 --> 01:43:15.659
Yeah,

01:43:16.309 --> 01:43:17.069
Lainie Libeti: everyone is different.

01:43:17.079 --> 01:43:19.699
It's just in our board game cafe.

01:43:19.699 --> 01:43:27.299
We have a singles night and we also
run different board game games.

01:43:27.469 --> 01:43:32.109
So, you know, like people want to play
Catan and there's only 1 person we've got,

01:43:32.109 --> 01:43:35.679
you know, come it's Catan night and we'll
put you together with a group of people.

01:43:36.189 --> 01:43:41.899
And then we also, in our board game
cafe, we do a language exchange.

01:43:41.899 --> 01:43:46.189
So intercambio, so we play, you know,
Pictionary and all these different

01:43:46.199 --> 01:43:48.949
games in both English and Spanish.

01:43:48.949 --> 01:43:52.859
So people learning English can
practice and people learning Spanish

01:43:52.859 --> 01:43:55.219
can practice with native speakers.

01:43:55.239 --> 01:43:57.099
And so, yeah, it's, it's.

01:43:58.009 --> 01:43:58.949
It's a lot of fun.

01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:00.199
Rupert Isaacson: And who makes the coffee?

01:44:00.199 --> 01:44:00.969
Who serves the drinks?

01:44:00.969 --> 01:44:01.679
Who makes the food?

01:44:01.689 --> 01:44:02.759
Is that all you and Miro?

01:44:02.789 --> 01:44:03.369
Just the two of you?

01:44:03.829 --> 01:44:06.969
Lainie Libeti: Well, we do
have two employees, but yeah, I

01:44:06.969 --> 01:44:09.149
actually cook for the entire cafe.

01:44:10.169 --> 01:44:12.099
We have American food.

01:44:12.139 --> 01:44:12.569
Yeah.

01:44:13.239 --> 01:44:17.019
So yeah, I cook mac and
cheese, chili con carne.

01:44:17.039 --> 01:44:17.269
How do

01:44:17.349 --> 01:44:18.769
Rupert Isaacson: you have the
time to sit here and talk to me?

01:44:18.769 --> 01:44:21.379
And why are you not down at the cafe?

01:44:21.379 --> 01:44:22.109
Because we have, we

01:44:22.109 --> 01:44:24.074
Lainie Libeti: have employees to do that.

01:44:26.144 --> 01:44:30.364
Rupert Isaacson: But it's it must
be also quite a lot of work it what

01:44:30.364 --> 01:44:34.864
do you think is the Correlation
between ballgames and mental health

01:44:36.534 --> 01:44:39.804
Lainie Libeti: again What I said
about the family culture of being able

01:44:39.804 --> 01:44:46.474
to play together the accessing the
playfulness and and I'd say adults

01:44:46.484 --> 01:44:50.924
that lose their Instinct to play.

01:44:51.174 --> 01:44:52.844
Those are the ones that get sick.

01:44:53.634 --> 01:44:57.604
So, from a parent's perspective
and an adult's perspective, it's

01:44:57.604 --> 01:45:02.914
important to continue to cultivate
your ability to be playful.

01:45:03.414 --> 01:45:03.884
I so

01:45:03.884 --> 01:45:04.194
Rupert Isaacson: agree.

01:45:04.324 --> 01:45:05.044
I so agree.

01:45:05.294 --> 01:45:06.034
What is it they say?

01:45:06.324 --> 01:45:08.524
You don't get, you don't stop
playing because you get old, you

01:45:08.524 --> 01:45:09.709
get old because you stop playing.

01:45:10.149 --> 01:45:10.469
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:45:10.939 --> 01:45:14.929
And from the child's perspective, it's
that it's another point of connection.

01:45:14.929 --> 01:45:19.349
And then, like I said, all of the
things like imagination, access to

01:45:19.349 --> 01:45:24.719
your imagination, access to risk taking
problem solving, creativity, all that

01:45:24.719 --> 01:45:26.969
is tied into the play, the gameplay.

01:45:29.009 --> 01:45:29.459
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sold.

01:45:29.689 --> 01:45:29.939
Yeah.

01:45:30.119 --> 01:45:30.369
Okay.

01:45:30.989 --> 01:45:32.519
I'm going to go start a board game.

01:45:34.359 --> 01:45:34.729
I bet

01:45:34.729 --> 01:45:35.849
Lainie Libeti: there's one there.

01:45:35.949 --> 01:45:36.449
Yeah, probably.

01:45:36.449 --> 01:45:36.659
I'm going to look

01:45:36.929 --> 01:45:37.599
Rupert Isaacson: it up, actually.

01:45:37.619 --> 01:45:39.159
My local town is Beastbarden.

01:45:39.794 --> 01:45:40.564
Let me see.

01:45:42.154 --> 01:45:44.414
It's probably hiding in
plain sight somewhere.

01:45:44.724 --> 01:45:45.834
It's probably there.

01:45:46.444 --> 01:45:51.544
Rupert Isaacson: Board,
game, cafe, Wiesbaden.

01:45:55.254 --> 01:45:56.194
There's a hobby store.

01:45:57.074 --> 01:45:57.604
Lainie Libeti: Okay.

01:45:57.634 --> 01:45:58.294
Does it have a cafe?

01:45:58.364 --> 01:45:58.514
Oh,

01:45:58.514 --> 01:45:59.324
Rupert Isaacson: no, there is.

01:45:59.354 --> 01:45:59.934
Bretspielka.

01:46:01.784 --> 01:46:03.114
Lainie Libeti: Go play Cascadia.

01:46:03.954 --> 01:46:05.794
Rupert Isaacson: I would
love to go play Cascadia.

01:46:05.794 --> 01:46:08.464
I think I'm going to take my kids too.

01:46:09.314 --> 01:46:09.664
You should.

01:46:10.654 --> 01:46:14.809
Rupert Isaacson: Well, actually,
this is, this is This is, it's

01:46:14.809 --> 01:46:16.289
not, it's not a board game cafe.

01:46:16.289 --> 01:46:18.459
It's a group of people who meet in cafes.

01:46:19.069 --> 01:46:19.629
Interesting.

01:46:19.649 --> 01:46:20.969
I don't think anyone's actually,

01:46:29.479 --> 01:46:30.429
interesting.

01:46:31.479 --> 01:46:31.799
Okay.

01:46:31.799 --> 01:46:32.964
I'm going to,

01:46:32.964 --> 01:46:33.740
it'll be

01:46:33.740 --> 01:46:34.517
Rupert Isaacson: very German.

01:46:34.517 --> 01:46:36.847
It'll be very, very rule based.

01:46:36.847 --> 01:46:37.624
I'm sure.

01:46:38.044 --> 01:46:38.334
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:46:38.364 --> 01:46:39.084
Oh, yeah.

01:46:39.084 --> 01:46:39.234
Yeah.

01:46:39.284 --> 01:46:42.924
And there's some games that
really are, you know, very,

01:46:42.924 --> 01:46:45.204
very strict and rule based.

01:46:45.204 --> 01:46:47.794
And we have some of those there.

01:46:47.814 --> 01:46:51.944
There's a whole a grouping
of games called Euro games.

01:46:51.984 --> 01:46:57.134
And so there's certain types of games
that are probably more popular there.

01:46:57.134 --> 01:46:57.604
We.

01:46:57.934 --> 01:47:02.964
We don't get a lot of call for
the Euro games because we, we in

01:47:02.964 --> 01:47:09.374
our cafe usually end up giving and
teaching more of the casual games

01:47:09.374 --> 01:47:11.544
to our, our audience, but who knows?

01:47:11.544 --> 01:47:13.444
Hopefully they'll get into the Euro games.

01:47:13.564 --> 01:47:13.734
What's a

01:47:13.804 --> 01:47:15.244
Rupert Isaacson: Euro game exactly?

01:47:16.049 --> 01:47:18.419
Lainie Libeti: Well, they take two
or three hours and there's lots

01:47:18.419 --> 01:47:23.679
of setup and there's lots of rules
and, and, you know, some of them

01:47:23.679 --> 01:47:26.229
are, are worker placement games.

01:47:26.239 --> 01:47:29.449
Some of them are, are
resource management games.

01:47:29.679 --> 01:47:34.199
They're, they're all different types
of games, but they tend to be quote,

01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:36.579
unquote, air quote, serious games.

01:47:36.589 --> 01:47:41.739
So I love, I love, I love some
of them, actually, not all

01:47:41.739 --> 01:47:44.714
of them, but there's so many.

01:47:45.054 --> 01:47:46.064
And you know what?

01:47:46.074 --> 01:47:49.524
The biggest board game conference
is in Germany, the Essen.

01:47:50.304 --> 01:47:51.830
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, ah, is that right?

01:47:51.830 --> 01:47:56.934
Lainie Libeti: So it's the, the center of
the board game culture is in your country.

01:47:57.014 --> 01:47:57.464
Rupert Isaacson: Good lord.

01:47:57.794 --> 01:47:58.864
And have you been to that one?

01:47:59.434 --> 01:48:00.114
Lainie Libeti: No.

01:48:01.024 --> 01:48:02.064
One day I will.

01:48:03.114 --> 01:48:06.054
Rupert Isaacson: Interestingly, Essen
is also where Equitana is, which is

01:48:06.054 --> 01:48:10.814
the it'd be in exactly the same place,
I'm sure, which is the, it's probably

01:48:10.814 --> 01:48:12.354
the world's biggest equestrian.

01:48:12.969 --> 01:48:15.329
Trade fair and i'm off in there.

01:48:15.459 --> 01:48:15.689
Yeah.

01:48:15.689 --> 01:48:16.169
So, okay.

01:48:16.169 --> 01:48:17.719
I'll go play games instead.

01:48:17.719 --> 01:48:18.069
Why not?

01:48:18.719 --> 01:48:22.449
Lainie Libeti: Yeah Well, if we
end up going to eston, I will

01:48:22.469 --> 01:48:24.129
message you and we'll get together

01:48:25.829 --> 01:48:29.779
Rupert Isaacson: It may by then not be too
late because it's what time of year is it?

01:48:31.299 --> 01:48:34.299
Lainie Libeti: I Don't remember.

01:48:34.359 --> 01:48:34.689
Hold on.

01:48:35.279 --> 01:48:36.559
I can look it up real fast

01:48:40.459 --> 01:48:41.599
Rupert Isaacson: Why are
you looking it up then?

01:48:41.599 --> 01:48:45.789
So listeners to get together with
your kids apart from going into the

01:48:45.789 --> 01:48:50.734
forest and on safari and do things
like that Go to a Board game cafe.

01:48:51.334 --> 01:48:54.774
I like the idea of doing that to not
just sit at home and play board games

01:48:54.774 --> 01:48:56.754
because it Gets you out into the city.

01:48:56.754 --> 01:48:57.954
It gets you meeting people.

01:48:57.954 --> 01:49:00.314
It gets you exposed to different games.

01:49:00.314 --> 01:49:05.494
It gets you into a more social
Context I think I'm gonna

01:49:05.494 --> 01:49:06.614
start doing this with my kids.

01:49:07.294 --> 01:49:10.814
Lainie Libeti: You should it's called
spiel essence and it's in October

01:49:11.144 --> 01:49:15.044
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, the
reason I ask is this October.

01:49:15.044 --> 01:49:16.579
We'll be moving to Spain But

01:49:16.619 --> 01:49:17.559
Lainie Libeti: we'll just have

01:49:17.559 --> 01:49:19.499
Rupert Isaacson: to come, we'll just
have to play board games in Andalusia.

01:49:19.869 --> 01:49:20.019
Yeah.

01:49:22.229 --> 01:49:22.749
Lainie Libeti: Fantastic.

01:49:23.454 --> 01:49:24.214
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

01:49:24.214 --> 01:49:29.964
So now you're doing this and you,
you're also, tell me, you've got

01:49:30.194 --> 01:49:33.164
the World Schooling Retreats.

01:49:33.774 --> 01:49:39.324
Tell me the name of your company and your
project with teens and mental health.

01:49:39.974 --> 01:49:40.364
Lainie Libeti: Sure.

01:49:40.594 --> 01:49:45.194
So the World Schooling Retreats
are Project World School and

01:49:45.214 --> 01:49:47.454
I work with teens online.

01:49:47.964 --> 01:49:52.104
I do private coaching and I
teach courses and that's through

01:49:52.144 --> 01:49:55.704
transformative Mentoring for teens.

01:49:56.034 --> 01:49:56.534
com.

01:49:57.114 --> 01:50:02.614
And I actually have a course coming
up where I'm teaching teens to tap

01:50:02.614 --> 01:50:04.674
into their passions and purpose.

01:50:04.704 --> 01:50:08.504
I'm also teaching mindset
and how to launch a business

01:50:10.014 --> 01:50:12.394
that's coming up in February.

01:50:12.404 --> 01:50:16.234
So I don't know when this is
going to air, but if people are

01:50:16.234 --> 01:50:18.384
interested, please go to my website.

01:50:18.384 --> 01:50:19.534
I'm enrolling that.

01:50:22.579 --> 01:50:23.959
Rupert Isaacson:
Transformativementoringforteens.

01:50:24.019 --> 01:50:29.049
com Project World School And
just tell me the February

01:50:30.639 --> 01:50:32.879
February deadline for enrollment.

01:50:32.939 --> 01:50:33.379
I haven't

01:50:33.379 --> 01:50:34.139
Lainie Libeti: been updated.

01:50:34.139 --> 01:50:38.169
It'll probably be somewhere
around the 15th to start the to

01:50:38.169 --> 01:50:40.879
launch the the entrepreneur class.

01:50:41.299 --> 01:50:41.509
But it's

01:50:41.989 --> 01:50:47.089
Lainie Libeti: half mindset, half half
actual hands on launching a project

01:50:47.139 --> 01:50:48.929
based on your passions and purpose.

01:50:49.139 --> 01:50:51.559
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that to me
actually is one of the most interesting

01:50:51.659 --> 01:50:55.434
points because I'm a great believer
that One of the things that has kind

01:50:55.434 --> 01:50:59.644
of destroyed the modern family is the
destruction of the family business.

01:50:59.984 --> 01:51:02.974
Where is the family farm or the family
or whatever if the family business

01:51:02.974 --> 01:51:06.834
is because a family business like a
family restaurant or a family shop

01:51:06.854 --> 01:51:13.364
or whatever it Everyone is involved
every you know, it's education.

01:51:13.364 --> 01:51:16.484
It's socialization, it's bonding, it's

01:51:17.339 --> 01:51:17.929
Business.

01:51:18.239 --> 01:51:18.879
Business, it's

01:51:18.889 --> 01:51:21.939
Rupert Isaacson: tribal life together,
it's everything, and everyone's

01:51:21.939 --> 01:51:23.349
got the sort of joint endeavour.

01:51:24.469 --> 01:51:24.769
Yeah.

01:51:24.779 --> 01:51:25.069
For the

01:51:25.169 --> 01:51:27.809
Rupert Isaacson: greater project,
all working together, and I'm a great

01:51:27.809 --> 01:51:32.709
believer in trying to have businesses
with your family and with your kids, but

01:51:32.709 --> 01:51:36.119
I don't think it's something which is
on most people's radars, I think that

01:51:36.169 --> 01:51:39.279
there's this idea, you know, you've got
to make the money, you send your kid

01:51:39.289 --> 01:51:42.499
to school so that your kid can go on
and get a better job than you got, and

01:51:42.829 --> 01:51:47.574
blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah,
and it's all rather isolating, Why not

01:51:47.594 --> 01:51:51.874
have a family economic unit, which you
could then branch out from, but it's

01:51:51.874 --> 01:51:53.134
always there for you if you want it.

01:51:54.154 --> 01:51:54.394
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:51:54.414 --> 01:51:56.834
My son and I own two businesses together.

01:51:56.844 --> 01:52:00.994
So project world school is our
business as well as Chango's

01:52:01.014 --> 01:52:02.754
trace, which means tell me about

01:52:02.804 --> 01:52:03.714
Rupert Isaacson: Chango's trace.

01:52:04.214 --> 01:52:06.174
Lainie Libeti: That's,
that's the board game cafe.

01:52:06.494 --> 01:52:07.124
Okay.

01:52:07.124 --> 01:52:10.744
Rupert Isaacson: Chongo's monkey, right?

01:52:10.854 --> 01:52:11.164
Monkeys?

01:52:11.954 --> 01:52:12.474
Trace.

01:52:13.334 --> 01:52:13.784
Oh, three monkeys.

01:52:15.174 --> 01:52:15.414
Three monkeys.

01:52:15.904 --> 01:52:16.354
Three monkeys.

01:52:16.394 --> 01:52:16.724
Got it.

01:52:17.274 --> 01:52:17.804
Okay.

01:52:17.844 --> 01:52:18.744
Why three monkeys?

01:52:19.884 --> 01:52:23.724
Lainie Libeti: Well, we wanted,
we wanted a brand that embodied

01:52:23.734 --> 01:52:26.104
playfulness and monkeys do.

01:52:26.134 --> 01:52:32.914
And also the term, so Mono is monkey
in Spanish, but Chongo is how you say

01:52:32.964 --> 01:52:39.424
Monkey in Spanish, as well as you say,
dude, or like, ah, that thing happened.

01:52:40.474 --> 01:52:42.774
So it's kind of an expression as well.

01:52:43.134 --> 01:52:49.464
And at first our brand was, but
then we just started calling it.

01:52:49.464 --> 01:52:49.524
I

01:52:49.524 --> 01:52:49.914
Rupert Isaacson: got it.

01:52:51.944 --> 01:52:52.504
Amazing.

01:52:52.934 --> 01:52:54.314
This has been really inspirational.

01:52:54.804 --> 01:53:01.304
I would say that, you know, a thing
there that really is perhaps not

01:53:01.334 --> 01:53:03.644
been made explicit in this podcast.

01:53:03.644 --> 01:53:09.184
And so I'd like to bring it sort
of into the clear forefront.

01:53:09.234 --> 01:53:14.629
Is this business of why not
create a business with your team?

01:53:14.909 --> 01:53:17.039
Why not create a business with your kid?

01:53:17.589 --> 01:53:21.319
Because it so many things fall into
perspective around that, right?

01:53:21.369 --> 01:53:26.309
You know, when emotions and
all of those other things start

01:53:26.769 --> 01:53:28.019
exploding all over the place.

01:53:28.799 --> 01:53:33.659
But yet you've still got to open
the cafe and serve the customer.

01:53:34.429 --> 01:53:38.219
It's good to have that focus, you
know, or what the crop does need to

01:53:38.219 --> 01:53:41.999
go in the ground regardless, or we've
still got to feed the horses right now.

01:53:42.149 --> 01:53:46.699
Let's argue about it while we feed the
horses, but we got to go feed the horses.

01:53:47.099 --> 01:53:49.559
And these things take you out of yourself.

01:53:49.949 --> 01:53:50.759
To some degree.

01:53:52.039 --> 01:53:58.479
So it provides perspective taking and you
were talking about emotional intelligence.

01:53:59.019 --> 01:54:02.209
It's so interesting how emotional
intelligence is so often tied

01:54:02.209 --> 01:54:03.829
up with economic intelligence.

01:54:04.079 --> 01:54:07.479
Because of course, bad emotional
intelligence makes for bad

01:54:07.479 --> 01:54:09.119
economic outcomes, right?

01:54:09.459 --> 01:54:09.639
And

01:54:10.319 --> 01:54:10.549
the

01:54:10.549 --> 01:54:12.399
Rupert Isaacson: opposite
is true in the good way.

01:54:12.949 --> 01:54:14.269
Where's it going next for you?

01:54:14.269 --> 01:54:16.004
Or what's the next project do you think?

01:54:17.584 --> 01:54:18.324
Lainie Libeti: I don't know.

01:54:18.584 --> 01:54:22.964
They always find me and things,
I don't know, things unfold.

01:54:23.474 --> 01:54:27.744
I'd like to write a second book
about, Oh, tell me the name

01:54:27.744 --> 01:54:29.394
Rupert Isaacson: of your book
again so people can, yes.

01:54:30.024 --> 01:54:32.864
Lainie Libeti: It's Seen,
Heard and Understood.

01:54:33.144 --> 01:54:36.074
Rupert Isaacson: Seen,
Heard and Understood.

01:54:36.744 --> 01:54:41.184
Lainie Libeti: Parenting and Partnering
with Teens for Greater Mental Health.

01:54:41.634 --> 01:54:44.154
Rupert Isaacson: And
Partnering with Teens.

01:54:44.224 --> 01:54:46.644
What's the last bit

01:54:47.484 --> 01:54:49.354
Lainie Libeti: for greater mental health

01:54:49.634 --> 01:54:50.794
Rupert Isaacson: for greater mental health

01:54:51.154 --> 01:54:55.874
Lainie Libeti: and also my son wrote the
foreword to the book It's it's wonderful.

01:54:55.884 --> 01:54:58.544
It's so so touching what he wrote.

01:54:58.564 --> 01:54:59.554
It's so lovely

01:55:01.614 --> 01:55:02.904
Rupert Isaacson: and
where's where's he at?

01:55:02.944 --> 01:55:07.284
Okay, you you are running the business
together the businesses together

01:55:09.104 --> 01:55:11.624
Has he got other things he wants
to go off and do at this point or

01:55:11.624 --> 01:55:15.014
is he actually pretty content right
now running this Or both or what?

01:55:16.624 --> 01:55:20.494
Lainie Libeti: Well, he's also a
writer, but he also just started

01:55:20.504 --> 01:55:22.594
developing his own board games.

01:55:22.604 --> 01:55:25.884
So he's really into that right now.

01:55:25.904 --> 01:55:32.124
I mean, it's and I think we just played
two of his games in the cafe with.

01:55:32.354 --> 01:55:33.524
Other customers.

01:55:34.094 --> 01:55:36.094
And I really think he could publish this.

01:55:36.114 --> 01:55:38.144
They're, they're so strong.

01:55:38.154 --> 01:55:43.854
He really has a grasp on game theory and
playability and weight of game, you know,

01:55:43.854 --> 01:55:46.884
weight of pieces and cards and such.

01:55:47.354 --> 01:55:49.344
He's, he's got it.

01:55:49.844 --> 01:55:51.544
Somebody's got to develop these games.

01:55:52.064 --> 01:55:52.234
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:55:52.234 --> 01:55:52.544
Okay.

01:55:52.544 --> 01:55:53.674
So the next business is gaming.

01:55:54.894 --> 01:55:58.534
Lainie Libeti: Yeah, he's so, I
mean, he, you know, he's 25, 20

01:55:58.534 --> 01:56:01.264
to be 26 in just a couple months.

01:56:01.274 --> 01:56:03.894
He doesn't have to have a
business with his mother.

01:56:03.914 --> 01:56:08.554
He doesn't have to be in partnership
with me, but the fact that he chooses

01:56:08.554 --> 01:56:12.104
to really says something about
this kind of partnership, parenting

01:56:12.104 --> 01:56:15.484
and, and the joy of connection,

01:56:15.574 --> 01:56:15.934
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:56:16.084 --> 01:56:16.884
Partnership parenting.

01:56:17.879 --> 01:56:18.299
Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

01:56:18.819 --> 01:56:21.419
So that's, oh, that was going
to be my next book will be

01:56:21.419 --> 01:56:22.719
on partnership parenting.

01:56:24.329 --> 01:56:25.299
Rupert Isaacson: Partnership parenting.

01:56:25.309 --> 01:56:25.809
Wonderful.

01:56:26.139 --> 01:56:30.169
Now, people can find you through your
websites, transformativementoringforteens.

01:56:30.209 --> 01:56:31.899
com and project world school.

01:56:32.439 --> 01:56:34.229
Can people also reach
out to you on an email?

01:56:34.239 --> 01:56:37.679
I'm sure lots of people listening
to this will have questions for you.

01:56:38.399 --> 01:56:39.459
Lainie Libeti: Sure, sure.

01:56:39.519 --> 01:56:39.709
How can they

01:56:39.709 --> 01:56:40.089
Rupert Isaacson: reach you?

01:56:40.829 --> 01:56:43.039
Lainie Libeti: Either of those
sites have contact forms.

01:56:43.089 --> 01:56:45.369
I also, you can find me on Facebook.

01:56:45.369 --> 01:56:46.009
Just look me up.

01:56:46.009 --> 01:56:47.939
You can find me lots of places.

01:56:48.839 --> 01:56:49.349
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:56:49.549 --> 01:56:51.709
Project World School on Facebook.

01:56:51.969 --> 01:56:52.269
All right.

01:56:52.309 --> 01:56:52.829
Perfect.

01:56:54.064 --> 01:56:57.654
Well, we've hit just
past the two hour mark.

01:56:57.764 --> 01:56:58.624
This has been amazing.

01:56:58.624 --> 01:57:01.354
I'm so glad I got to,
I got to learn a lot.

01:57:01.414 --> 01:57:01.814
It's great.

01:57:01.834 --> 01:57:03.164
It's a wonderful thing
about doing the podcast.

01:57:03.344 --> 01:57:05.994
It's like, I get to ask everybody
everything I want to ask.

01:57:05.994 --> 01:57:07.944
And I go away, oh, that was a good idea.

01:57:07.944 --> 01:57:09.094
Oh, I think I'm going to do that.

01:57:09.484 --> 01:57:10.144
That's a good idea.

01:57:10.174 --> 01:57:11.334
I'm going to do that as well.

01:57:11.734 --> 01:57:13.094
So thank you so much.

01:57:13.144 --> 01:57:15.024
I mean, this has been
massively enlightening.

01:57:15.694 --> 01:57:20.334
And yeah, for people who are just
wondering how to break out of these

01:57:20.344 --> 01:57:26.584
negative patterns that I think they're
so easy to fall into in familial

01:57:26.584 --> 01:57:33.214
environments, but they don't have to
be, I think, I think a story like yours

01:57:33.234 --> 01:57:39.539
is, it's What's so inspiring about it
is you probably run into a little bit

01:57:39.539 --> 01:57:42.759
of the same problems that I used to run
into where people would say, Oh, you

01:57:42.759 --> 01:57:46.119
saying that you're like, you're going
to cure, you know, autism by going to

01:57:46.129 --> 01:57:47.939
see shamans in Mongolia and ride horses.

01:57:47.949 --> 01:57:49.259
Like, no, of course I'm not saying that.

01:57:49.579 --> 01:57:54.069
But what I am saying is when the adventure
in front of you comes up to do whatever

01:57:54.069 --> 01:58:00.679
that adventure is, if that's what your
kid really wants to do, follow your kid.

01:58:01.454 --> 01:58:05.084
And I've always found that if I do
that, everything else will sort of fall

01:58:05.084 --> 01:58:10.704
into place around it as, but as long as
it's my agenda, things get complicated.

01:58:11.224 --> 01:58:15.944
And I think what you've really done is
you've really shone a light on that.

01:58:15.944 --> 01:58:20.614
So you don't need to bugger off to
Peru, you know, and give up your job.

01:58:21.554 --> 01:58:22.519
It could be.

01:58:23.029 --> 01:58:29.149
As simple as going and playing games
with your kid and starting a bit of

01:58:29.149 --> 01:58:30.509
a business together or something.

01:58:31.119 --> 01:58:32.919
It could be a grand adventure.

01:58:33.099 --> 01:58:35.929
It could be a small adventure,
but it's still an adventure.

01:58:36.219 --> 01:58:38.849
I think that's and as you said,
you're talking about playfulness

01:58:39.059 --> 01:58:39.969
and the importance of that.

01:58:40.119 --> 01:58:43.659
What is adventure and
curiosity, but play very

01:58:45.439 --> 01:58:45.569
Lainie Libeti: much.

01:58:46.109 --> 01:58:46.759
Yeah, well said.

01:58:49.159 --> 01:58:49.629
Thank you.

01:58:49.629 --> 01:58:49.799
I'm

01:58:49.799 --> 01:58:50.299
Rupert Isaacson: inspired.

01:58:50.339 --> 01:58:51.309
I think we need to work together.

01:58:51.309 --> 01:58:52.709
I think I think that's the next thing.

01:58:52.709 --> 01:58:53.849
I think I'll be emailing you.

01:58:56.944 --> 01:58:57.884
Lainie Libeti: We'll do something.

01:58:58.364 --> 01:59:01.894
We've always been threatening
of doing something since we met.

01:59:02.054 --> 01:59:02.794
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, indeed.

01:59:02.824 --> 01:59:03.154
Indeed.

01:59:03.154 --> 01:59:03.654
It's time.

01:59:03.814 --> 01:59:04.324
It's time.

01:59:04.374 --> 01:59:05.784
Thank you so much, Lanius.

01:59:05.784 --> 01:59:07.224
It's been absolutely brilliant.

01:59:07.764 --> 01:59:08.034
It was fun.

01:59:08.034 --> 01:59:11.414
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:59:12.244 --> 01:59:15.994
If you did, please help us to make more.

01:59:15.994 --> 01:59:19.874
Please like, subscribe, tell
a friend, give us a thumbs up.

01:59:20.324 --> 01:59:25.574
If you'd like to support us on Patreon,
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01:59:25.894 --> 01:59:26.244
com.

01:59:26.444 --> 01:59:29.624
And if you'd like to find out about
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01:59:30.014 --> 01:59:33.964
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There's a whole range of cool stuff.

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02:00:12.769 --> 02:00:16.319
I can't wait for our next guest
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02:00:17.119 --> 02:00:20.909
In the meantime, remember, live free.

02:00:21.839 --> 02:00:22.389
Ride free.