Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Anke.
I'm super happy to have you here today.
Angie: Thank you.
Yes, yes, the boy, yes.
Anke: So why don't we start out as I always start out, let
people know where you're based and so what's your business dogs?
Angie: I am basically a dog parenting coach, and I'm based in Columbus, Ohio.
Anke: All right.
Tell me about dog parenting coach.
Who do you coach, the dog or the parent?
Angie: The parent.
But what I coach the parent with is actually exactly how to guide your
dog into happiness and good behavior.
Yeah, you can't, you can't have one without the other.
You know, a happy dog cannot be a well behaved dog and a well behaved dog
will not be happy unless you have both.
Anke: So what's the biggest mistake you feel people make that leads
to, you know, problem behaviors or frustration on both ends of the leash?
Angie: The main concept when we're looking at a big picture, and I've been doing this
for so many decades that, you know, I've gotten to the nitty gritty and all the
way to the big picture, um, which is what I cover in my book, Don't Train Your Dog.
So the biggest problem and the biggest misunderstanding is viewing dogs from
a dog training, training an animal type perspective, as opposed to
parenting an emotional, intellectual, emotionally entangled family member.
So the, the, it, it, the mistakes happen when you view them as you're trying to
train a wild or domesticated animal.
Because we, we, we're living with them in our homes as part of our families.
They are part of our families.
Um, and so we, what's missing is being able to teach them.
Modern family life skills that they need in order to be happy and well behaved.
And you don't get those with dog training.
Anke: So what's the biggest difference in the, in the approach
between, you know, dog training and, um, you know, and teaching my dog
to, to live in a human household.
Angie: I think the easiest way to explain it is that dog
training is for teaching tricks.
Okay.
So it's sit for a treat, go to the spot for a treat.
Off.
Down, you know, those kind of things, right, for a treat.
Or then you've got the harsh, super harsh, obedience.
So it's dog training equates to either a philosophy of fear in equals reaction out,
or food in equals reaction out, right?
But really, you're, that's, it's, that's like treating your dog like a simpleton.
They're so much more capable of so much more than that.
And they have evolved to be.
Entangled with us, you know, I mean, studies show that dogs are born to
look to us for guidance, to look to us, to read our facial expressions,
to read our eye movements, finger pointing, to locate objects, right?
And so they've already got it.
They're born with it.
They don't learn that.
They're born with it, right?
So now that gives you a clue that we're entangled with them, right?
They're born entangled to us.
So now you take them and then you, and then you're essentially pushing them out.
And treating them like, you know, a wild or domesticated
animal that you're training.
Instead of using, they know exactly how to use that entanglement to communicate
with us, but we don't know that because we're so, we've been taught this dog
training mentality all our lives.
Anke: That makes so much sense.
It makes, like, it reminds me of like little Leo there.
He, like, he was like, yeah, I was like, well, you're way too smart for this
because he would do kind of anything.
I asked him when he would see the sense of it, like he literally
could see his little face, you know, when there was a treat, he'd do it.
But like, if I asked him to sit, for example, he'd look at me and be like.
Why?
You know, and if it made sense to him, then he'd do it.
If he goes, well, I don't know, you're just making me jumping up and down,
that makes no sense, he wouldn't do it.
So there was always, I kind of got a sense for like, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot
more to, to him than, than meets the eye.
So what's one to do instead?
Well,
Angie: so you're exactly right when you say it needs to make sense to them,
because that's how dogs see things.
And that's what I explain in the book, is that.
Learning how to communicate with them in a way that makes sense to them, you
know, not make sense to us as in treat, sit, you know, all this, this stuff.
I'm not saying you never disagree with them, you guide them.
No, not this, but yes, this, but there's a way you do it.
And it has to make sense to them, or they don't get it.
So then you're wasting your time, you're confusing them, the per the human gets
frustrated, the dog gets confused and scared a lot of the time, um, but if
things make sense to them according to their natural wiring, and that's how my
recipes and prescriptions are approached, if it makes sense to them their national
wi natural wiring, then they got it.
When it ca it causes anxiety when people are asking them to do things in a way
that makes no sense to them according to their natural wiring or according to
mother nature, what they've been given.
Anke: So, I mean, that's really funny because like Mrs, Mrs.
Mastiff here, you know, has these very, you know, like she's a guard dog and boy,
you know, it's like, it's really like her natural wiring is really prominent.
Like when she takes her work so seriously, so, and you can't tell
her not to, not to guard, you know?
So it's that piece of, Hey, let's go in, okay.
No, she'll come in.
Like, if you try and kind of yell at her, not to, not to bark, she'll
go like, what are you saying?
Like, don't you see that I've got work to do here, right?
So it's like, she's reacting quite differently from what the other
two who are different breeds.
Like, that's really, yeah.
So, it's like all kids.
Yeah.
All
Angie: kids are different, you know, but you can still, but there's some, still
some parenting philosophies that work.
Pretty much across the board.
Yes, you've got, you know, a strong willed and then you've
got, you know, of human children.
Well, dogs come with their own wiring too, but they're simpler, you know, they're
more simple in their philosophies in life and like, well, philosophies, you know
what I mean, by their view of life, um, and their view of their, their current
daily life and their current families and environments are everything to them.
And so when something's not according to what makes sense to them, it
causes them great anxiety, right?
And then you're seeing they're not understanding it, then you're seeing
this aggression or whatever, but you can, or mostly fear and aggression,
but you can guide your dogs.
And what we do at Parenting for Dogs is guide your dogs and with
these recipes and prescriptions into saying, yes, I, you know, a
dog has a reaction to guard, right?
And only really in essence, A, uh, an action can truly replace
another action for a dog.
Yes.
So you have to say, no, I don't want you to do this at this time, but
here's what I do want you to do.
But it has to make sense.
It has to be a lateral move to them if you, if that makes sense.
Mm-Hmm.
. See, it can't just be, Hey, I want you to just sit there and not move for a second.
You know?
Or don't move a muscle.
under, under this dress, or you know, here's a treat, here's a
treat, they don't care about it, they're just still, they're, the
urge to bark or whatever is smart.
I like my dogs to bark, but I want to show them, bark when you go to
the door, and then when I say, I'll be done, then that's enough barking.
And dogs have the ability to make choices, to um, come up with ideas themselves,
and everything, they're just not given that chance, and people aren't seeing it,
because you cannot see the true ability of a dog, In a group training class, a
laboratory, or anything, you can only see those things and those modern skills
for family life can only be taught in a family environment when they're connected
to a human that they trust and respect.
Both.
Then you see the full potential.
Anke: Yes, and I think what I hear you say is that we massively underestimate them.
And I think almost by asking them to do stuff that doesn't make sense,
especially if you come from like training and sit and plot and treat
and whatever, you know, like if you go,
would it be fair to say that they don't really feel heard and understood, which
probably impacts how much they trust us?
Angie: Well, um, yes, they have to respect us, and in order to do that,
you have to be able to communicate with them in a way that makes sense to them,
that, you know, relax here, I've got this, we're fine, you know, everybody's
fine, relax, um, that you're confident and firm, but with the prescriptions
and the recipes, it's almost like Once you see him, you're like, everybody
becomes confident because you're like, oh, I see the results of it immediately.
And then, and then the parent becomes confident.
And then, but the dog doesn't, what you're seeing is more like, it's not
like, oh, she's underestimating me.
But in dog terms, it's more like, in dog world, it's more like, she's,
um, that's not making sense to me.
She shouldn't be doing that.
And now I'm confused.
And now I thought maybe since I'm confused, I thought maybe she meant
something else and she didn't, and that doesn't make sense to me.
And now I'm get frightened.
Maybe I get frightened of her, okay?
Maybe I get frightened of something that was, you know, just happened
to be happening at the same time.
Um, it, it feels like, you know, this is sounding elaborate, but it's really
very simple and like, once you just get it down to the, what I call the five,
five big stuff rules that we want dogs to con that I concentrate on teaching
dogs for modern family life, um, And then add that to that and balance
that out with the full fulfillment.
You know, that any kind of guidance you give, no, not this, but yes, this, as
long as it's given in an emotionally, emotionally neutral state, then dogs
understand it and then they, they accept it and they can understand it.
And there's, you don't flip into fight or flight and you don't flip into them
just ignoring you and brushing you off.
Cause you, cause you're, you know, of no consequence.
You've got that parenting sweet spot.
Anke: I mean, it's like funny, like it feels like it's not that
different from parenting kids, right?
So what are the five house rules?
Angie: Well, the five big, and I do want to say first, it is like parenting
kids, because once I've done this for decades and decades and I've fixed My
skills and my knowledge has come from just being, working with the worst of
the worst cases, like fixing unfixable dogs that were, you know, giving up,
giving up for, um, euthanasia or, you know, just nobody can handle them.
Nobody can be in.
And so when you start with that bad, that all the other just
normal daily life things are teaching dogs gets, gets simple.
Cause it, cause you did the worst of the worst.
And then I did it for years and years and years.
And so I finally realized that.
I am comfortable and it is accurate to say I'm parenting the dogs because I had two,
two boys I was parenting at the same time.
I realize I'm parenting them both because my definition of parenting is providing
love, guidance, um, love and guidance to vulnerable members of a family, right?
So that includes, that includes them, right?
But here's where the rubber meets the road.
Um, you want to give this love, support and guidance to both.
But the way you give it to dogs is completely different than you
give it to kids, and that's where the misunderstandings happen.
Anke: Okay, so what should we do then?
Well, give us, give us like a one off little recipe, like give
us a bit of a taste, you know?
Angie: Okay, so um, it's, it's hard because even in the, in the book we talk
about how the first read on the book, which is basically a workbook, but it's,
you know, it's got everything in it.
It's got, you know, family stories and life stories with dogs and, and
humor and, you know, the things that you, you, you come across with just in
living with dogs and these incredible.
species that they are and that they picked us to be entangled with,
which is, you know, a privilege.
So I'm saying we want to, you know, treat that privilege correctly by
teaching them rules that they can, um, use in modern family life so that they
don't lose their home, they don't bite kids, they don't do all these things
that they're only doing these things because they just don't understand what
you're trying to teach them because dog training does not work in their mind.
It teaches them tricks.
So the five big stuff rules that I focus on is number one, no aggression,
um, no teeth on humans because we accidentally have them touch us with
their teeth and then they get bigger or something happens and then, then
you're like, oh, don't bite me.
Well, it's like, we've just been teaching them to bite us the whole time because we
just allowed them to put their teeth on our hands and we were playing with them,
playing with their mouth or whatever.
That's extremely unfair.
Right now we're saying, oh, don't bite, you know, or people teach, teach.
Parents teach dogs to sit for a treat and then they're like, yeah, it's working.
Look how smart he is.
Right.
And, and then they try to teach them not to bite a kid with the same way.
All right.
And then, then, then it goes downhill very quickly and the dog ends up losing its
family and its home through no fault of its own because they thought they could
teach family safety rules the same way they taught the tricks and nothing could
be farther from the truth, you know?
So, but you asked me, what is one example?
Yeah, sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'll go.
I'll go off the board on dogs all day long.
I love it.
Anke: I love it.
Angie: Um, so one of the recipes, for example, is
The What's Not Allowed recipe.
So it doesn't, you can't involve treats in the What's Not Allowed recipe, right?
So, you know, you go out of your way other times and, and for other things to catch
them having good behavior to, to when they stop doing something you ask them not
to do and, and, and did the right thing, you over praise them then, super excited.
There's certain times you can use excitement voice, certain
times you use treats, but in the What's Not Allowed, you can't.
And part of it is you're not getting enough eye contact with the dog.
So that recipe involves You know, um, stopping the behavior, how to stop
the behavior with a neutral mindset, perfectly calm because I know the
recipe so I don't have to panic.
I know I'm gonna do.
Um, I, you can even parents stop panicking about when their dog's gonna do something
because they know here I'm watching the behavior, which we explain in the book,
look for this, look for this little behavior, look for this, you know, the
way they turn their head like this, or they move a paw like this, or, you know,
I teach how to look for those things.
As soon as you see those, and that's called seeing the guidance moment.
That's when you know you gotta step in and provide the guidance.
This guidance says no, in a way that dogs can understand, which is, you know, it
kind of has to be built on in the book.
No, I don't want you to do this.
Okay, and then a little bit of eye contact for just one second,
1 1000, just let it sink in, okay?
Because it's not this distraction, you can't just distract them at that point
with something they don't learn, okay?
So, it's the eye contact because you have this relationship with them, because they
trust and respect you, you're not going overboard, you're emotionally neutral,
get the eye contact and then say, we don't, so that you say, we don't, we
don't ever do that, but here's what we can do, and then you immediately switch
to the, it's an incomplete teaching moment not to do the what you do instead.
Yes.
And that doesn't, that's, people think that's being taught by distraction, like
this treat with distraction, and it's not.
That's why it's going off the rails.
That's why your trained dog is going off the rails.
Anke: That makes sense.
That makes sense.
So what kind of replacement behaviors, you know, especially like, okay, now let
me let me use a real life example, Mrs.
Guard Dog Leah, right?
So she's got a front yard at night, she sits there on the porch.
And, you know, she takes her job very seriously every now and then.
It's very cute, actually.
So every now and then she comes in, she nudges everybody, like the dog,
you know, people, everybody here.
Okay.
So I can kind of go sit there.
And then all of a sudden she will charge the door because she
obviously, she heard something.
Right.
So now when she alerts, well, fair enough, you know, obviously that's your,
that's what you can do your job fine.
But it's almost like.
When it gets like you kind of ramping yourself up, you know, when she gets like,
and I'm like, if I want to step in and say, okay, I've got you, you know, like
you're good now, you've done your job.
It's my job now.
So if I'm standing there sort of in the front yard, You know, what
kind of replacement behavior could, I mean, could I, could I offer?
And I do, in my experience, treats don't, like, when they're excited, the
treat's the last thing on their mind.
Like, she won't even want it.
So I perfectly, you know, love that you're saying, like, treat's
not your answer for everything.
So, you know, how can I, So, um, you know, you have to be able to communicate
effectively that you've done your job
Angie: and you can kind of go now.
Right, right.
I can tell you have experience with dogs because, you know, you
understand that there's these subtleties that come in, right?
You see all the subtleties and those things have to be addressed, okay?
But it's so much easier than you think and it really is, you know, dogs see things
in a very black and white way, right?
Things are always allowed or never allowed, okay?
And that's when you get to the safety rules or the five big
safety rules I'm telling you about.
That's, uh, this is never allowed.
Right?
The thing you're talking about is, if you want your dog to bark at the door when
somebody comes, or to do that, first, you're correct, the dogs come in and like,
that's when they're always like, that's how you're addressing separation anxiety
too, is to understand that like, when you come back and to understand what drives
them on that, that's how you fix that.
But she's coming in and checking to make sure everybody in the family is here.
We're all together, because that's what they want.
They want it to be all together.
We have to teach them that sometimes we leave, and then sometimes we
come back, and to be fine with that.
But they want us to all be together.
So she's checking.
So she really does believe that that's her job, is to check to make
sure everybody's here, and then to confront any dangers or strangers.
So what you have to communicate to her is, listen, either you
want her to do that or you don't.
I don't want him to do that because that causes problems, right?
I do want him to bark at the door, um, which is a little bit different
because that's the hybrid, almost like a hybrid trick because I do
involve a treat in that that I teach in the book to say, bark, bark, bark.
Yes, go ahead and bark.
But now when I say, all done, Then I give a treat for that, right?
So that one does, once they're calm, I give a treat.
Not when they're barking, you know, not in the middle of it, right?
When they've understood, I said, that's enough, you can stop now.
You know, I have, you can have the patience when you're sure
about what you're doing, ask the person at the door, sorry, we're
having a training moment, just one moment, everybody's happy to help.
But you're trying to rush to the door and get it normally and that
causes all the, you don't get to address or do your guidance or
do your parenting because you're stressed about getting the door open.
But really, if you pre think these things like it says in the book, you're calm.
You go there and you say, Nope, hold on just one second, just, Doing a little,
we're learning something here, learning some skills and then address them
when you get them completely stopped without eye contact, then all done
and then you can give them a treat.
So that teaches them from then on later, you do that few repetitions and then
when you say they run to the door, bark, bark, bark, you say all done
when they do and then they go back.
for their treat, you know, so that's a little pseudo one where there is a,
there is a treat involved in that one.
The bigger concept of what you're talking about being outside is that you would have
to step between her and the, the person or the stranger, what I'm just like, ah,
I don't, I don't need, I don't, I don't need you to protect me in that way, right?
I, I, I protect our family so you can relax.
It gives her more relaxation.
It gives her be able to, she can see that she's off duty.
Right?
And so you have to be very clear showing them that you can be off duty
on this, I take care of this, I make sure everybody's fine, you know, every,
you know, no, no, no family members are hurting other family members because I
make sure everybody's fine, you know, so that that's what they need to understand.
And if they trust and respect you, then they'll understand, understand that.
When you say, I'll handle this, right?
Yeah.
I mean, that makes so
Anke: much sense.
Angie: Yeah.
So, but when you're afraid of a child or something, there's a
whole, um, dog, you know, kind kids and confident canines recipe.
Right.
So it, it's.
It's not exactly what people think it is because they think, Oh, I'm going
to teach my kids to respect my dog.
It's, I'm not going to let them hurt my dog.
And then, and vice versa.
But it's not as simple as that.
It doesn't work that way because the dog has a different view
of what is, what is happening.
And the child has a different view of what's happening or a child may
be a baby and can't do anything for itself, a toddler, you know?
So that's a bigger subject.
And I do just discuss exactly how to fix that, exactly how to
make that relationship happen.
But, I would say, for example, a substitute behavior like
you were asking about.
Um, you know, we're not gonna, you know, don't need to be scared.
We're not afraid, we're not, you know, aggressive at anything around those kids.
I don't want that.
But I went, here's what I want you to do.
Get that toy.
Like, let's play with that toy around the kids.
And then, but you have to get the toy and play with it.
Like, it's the best thing you've ever done.
Yeah.
With the doll, right?
And then there's this good girl playing with that instead.
And then pretty soon you start seeing the choice being made.
Where, when the kids start playing or getting rowdy, instead of them
being afraid, then they run and get their toy and play over on the side.
Or, you know, there's just so many, so many things in the book, it's hard
to, it's hard to get into all of them.
Anke: Do you, do you have a copy there that you can just kind of hold
Angie: up?
You know what, I just, the book just came out yesterday, I was just
thinking this, and I was like, I gave away my last physical copy.
Oh, my lord.
This is the front cover, the picture of it.
It's called Don't Train Your Dog.
It's at Amazon now, of course, but um, our website is parentingfordogs.
com with a number four, parentingfordogs.
com.
So I'm
Anke: just going to have to kind of go get that right now because
I'm totally intrigued because a lot of the stuff I actually, um,
I'm like, yeah, that's kind of like, that's my experience because when
I go with those two big girls, when I'm out, That's exactly what I do.
It's like when there's sort of another dog or somebody's coming and I will
just kind of literally like no, you go over here and I've just got a, I'm
between them and they go, okay, whatever, you know, so it's like, I've got you.
This is like, I don't, you know, so it's, it's, um, It's just like when
they actually hear and they sort of hear something like another dog outside.
It's almost like when there's nobody inside, you know, so it's that, it's
that, um, yeah, but I'm sort of now really curious, like this is really
interesting because now I'm kind of really curious to find out, you know,
what are the signals that I'm missing?
And actually the other one is.
Is she, like, I always have a toy with me.
I never take treats because none, neither of them are interested in treats on walks.
Right.
But I always have a toy.
Right.
Because like this other one, she is literally, when she gets
excited, first thing she does, she turns around and grabs the toy.
So that's like, you know, that's what I taught her when she was little.
And that's what she does to this day.
You know, her reaction is get the toy.
So it's really easy.
And then And I can almost gauge her excitement level by how she, if she's
like, uh, okay, so she's not even excited.
If she's really excited, she just fully goes for it.
Right.
But it's like, you can level her, you can gauge her excitement level.
And it's also really easy to, to re, to redirect because she'll go for
the toy and then whatever the cat or whatever kind of excites her, it's
just like no longer of interest.
Right.
Angie: Right, so what, so you saw a piece of what I'm talking about, right?
So you're, you're, like a lot of people who have worked with dogs and, you know,
a lot of people have their hearts in the right place saying, you know, I'm going
to just distract them or try to give them a treat all the time and those are
involved, but the timing of when you're doing those and, and, and expecting those
to do it solely by themselves, treats and distractions by themselves will not do it.
Fear and harsh obedience will not do it, only this, you know, parenting for dogs,
mental guidance, sweet spot will do it.
So you've experienced some of what I'm saying.
And, and you're like, you're almost there.
Like there's just like 20 percent that like, say people who have
experience with dogs like you, they're, they're almost there usually.
And there's about 20 percent that though is so different that it's
just, it'll put you over the edge to what you're like, Oh, okay.
This has been what's missing.
Right?
Is when what's missing.
I'm almost there and you can feel, and you can see some things work and then
then they don't work and then other things don't work, but this does, why
does it work on one dog and not on the other, you know, there's just 20 percent
about missing from what, what you need to know to, to bring it all the way home.
Right.
And, and this, this, you can't find this anywhere else because I developed this.
over, over 25 years that I've been working with it and I just kept
constant notes and constant video.
So there's a video companion, a digital companion that goes with this book.
So in the introduction, you don't have to use the videos, um, but people who
want to use the videos, there's a QR code and it comes free with the book and you
just scan the QR code with your phone if you'd like to, if you're reading the
first chapter, if you'd like to see what I talked about in the real chapter or
see me doing it in real life with dogs.
Um, you can go to that, or, but everything's really self contained in
the book, you don't have to do that, but digital companion if people don't want to.
But also there's a lot of other resources will be at the website, um,
the Parenting for Dogs website too, that has like, you know, a community of,
of tell your, tell your dog parenting stories and, and how you work this out.
You know, I read the book and then I worked this out that I didn't have,
and then that helps other dog parents.
So just like parenting kids that we all learn from.
What we've learned from other moms and dads.
So it's like that.
And, but the problem is, and the, you know, especially even after COVID,
even before that, dog behavioral problems were skyrocketing, you know,
and, and their dogs are being given up in record numbers to shelters.
And it's all because of what's missing in this book, and so I could, had to
make the book, I couldn't stop, and you know, that's why it's taken decades.
I've had videos and stuff before that, and I've been working on it
forever, but now I had to exclusively go to putting everything from my,
all my decades of work into this one place, so that I can finally push it
over the line and get people to see.
And then, and stop this problem that's happening that it's completely avoidable.
Anke: I think that almost makes it worse, right?
When you kind of see that it is actually fixable, you know, so it's almost like,
well, then, you know, part of this conversation and any other conversations
we, I hope we have, uh, to really get this in as many hands as, uh, people we
can, because like, you know, every dog parent who understands their dog better,
you know, You know, will basically diminish or like eliminate the risk
of that dog ending up in your house
Angie: or kids being bit.
And, um, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's haunted me ever since I've, you know,
I've, I've started, I started figuring it out and I was like, Oh man, this
is just a colossal misunderstanding.
And we're, you know, we're seeing them from this dog training standpoint,
instead of what they actually are, um, and what they're actually capable of
and what they're thinking and, and, and reading us and what we're, we're, we're
totally missing it on most regards.
And then I see dogs just losing their homes and, and suffering and, and, and
dogs are paying a brutal price for this.
Misunderstanding what I, what I say is like, you know, you've
got the harsh obedience or would never use treats or anything.
And then you've got the only treats and distractions, and then they're
battling each other and all these parents are being caught in the crossfire.
And so then you're afraid to make a move.
And what I talk about in the book is this parental paralysis by
analysis has made our, our dogs are paying a brutal price for that.
Anke: Yes.
Angie: Right?
It's not Terrence's fault.
It's not our, it's not their fault because the information
just not out there until now.
Um, so imagine if you were in my spot and I knew I could stop it and I knew I
could save all these dogs and I've been saving dogs this whole time, but now I
got to save millions instead of thousands.
Then, you know, I don't, I don't, I, I don't sleep at night.
I bet.
Anke: Yeah, I think it's It's the only reason why.
Angie: You know, it's crazy to continue doing something against all odds for 28
years, but if you knew you could stop this suffering you couldn't stop either, right?
And I knew I could, so I couldn't stop.
It's been quite the, quite the journey.
Anke: I think, well, you do, it's like, I love your energy around this.
And I love the passion behind it.
As I'm almost like, I'm going to turn around and get that book right now.
I think I would love to have you back because it's, um, you know,
it's definitely, you know, the, the, the, the impact, the massive,
you know, because it's, it's.
The dogs are the ones on the receiving end, but I think, you know, the, the
people who wanted the dog for the connection and don't manage to, to kind
of find this place of understanding.
So it's kind of bad for everyone, right?
So it's, you know, but what's, if there is a solution, then let's make
sure everybody gets their hands on it.
Angie: There's absolutely a solution.
Absolutely.
And it's not hard what people think.
There isn't just, you know, there aren't, there's no magic and mystery.
It's like, it's, if you read the book and you see you're like.
You know, I'm, you, you're led to believe.
Like typical dog training shows and books and things like that,
you know, tend to water things down and make them look easier or more
effective than they really are, right?
Because it's a show, you know, it's entertainment, right?
And then the whole time it's killing me because that's not gonna help,
you know, that's making you think something's, oh, well, I've got
the only dog that can't be fixed.
I've got the one with the problem that can't do this because everybody
else seems to be able to fix it with this, when really they're not.
They're struggling as much as you are as a dog parent.
So that's what's.
So heart wrenching about it is that, is that I'm, you know, I've watched
all this happen and, and knowing that I'd be able to fix it, but you got to
get it, I had to get it into a form because it's got to be easy enough.
It's got to be usable in daily life.
It's got to fit right into your family life, whether you, whether your family
is you and your dog or, you know, what we say, or you're a member of a, the
Brady Bunch, you know, it's all, it works in all environments, all families.
And so it's one thing for me to know how to do it.
But it's a whole nother thing for, I had to get it simple enough.
Easy enough, effective enough that everybody can do it, right?
That it's not a mystery.
There's no like just some certain people who can, people see me do it
and they're like, oh, that's just because you're great with dogs.
It's like, I learned this.
I learned it.
I figured out how to do it and then I learned it and then I teach other
people and they're effective too.
Yes.
I mean, I've worked with the worst of the worst cases that most dog
parents are never going to see.
I mean,
Anke: look, I was going to, like, I know I'm going to sort of mess
up the timing here, but I just couldn't, can't help myself.
Like, how did you get to a place?
Like, nobody would trust the most difficult cases to me.
Like, you know, it's almost an I'm not like a newbie, right?
But it's like, how did you get into a situation where you ended up working with
these really difficult, you know, cases?
Angie: Yeah, it started out, I mean, I was not, this was not intending to be my life.
I was, you know, raising two young boys and I started volunteering.
I knew, you know, I'd always done some dog training.
And then I realized when I realized a couple of things like that dog
training doesn't work for that when it was like, you know, my dog was
sort of became afraid of my toddler.
And it didn't work.
The other stuff doesn't work.
And I'm not getting rid of my dog.
And I'm not letting my child get bit either.
So I was, I was forced into figuring it out.
Like I had to figure it out.
I was, I was desperate.
And then I just kept like, there wasn't anything to read.
I kept looking for it.
No, no answers there.
You know?
So then I just started figuring it out by tiny pieces of things I would
learn or just about animal behavior.
I've, my whole childhood, I, I spent, You know, basically outside
with animals, watching animals.
I've always been, you know, interested in animal behavior and drawn to that.
My whole life has been about that.
Um, and, you know, I
Anke: But being in a situation where you needed to find a situation, I
think that's a powerful rival, right?
Yes,
Angie: it was.
And so then I just started, when I figured out how to do a lot of it, I was like,
oh, that dog training doesn't even work.
What everybody thinks is going to work doesn't work.
And that's why all this is happening.
And then I'm, I'm, I'm watching in these rescues.
I didn't work for one rescue.
I volunteered to help.
train, at that time, um, dogs that, um, you know, couldn't be adopted yet
because they weren't so, you know, because I had figured out some things.
Then I, then I saw, and I just saw this epidemic of dogs, you know,
developing all these behavioral issues, fears, aggression, and, you
know, basically our whole society's inability to prevent or cure them.
And then I became, I was just, I was distraught.
So then I thought, there has to be answers.
There are answers to things that make sense.
There's a natural order of things.
There's a natural thing, you know, things can be just because we
don't know the answer yet doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist.
So since I couldn't find it, I had to, I couldn't find it out there already.
I had to figure it out myself.
So then I started taking worse and worse and worse cases and then pretty soon
vets or other rescues started, you know, knowing it's like, you know, Angie,
let's see if we can get it to Angie, but I can only do so many dogs at a time.
So, you know, I have that dilemma all the time.
But then I, I started recording it, the behavior, um, just so that I
could help the rescue folks here.
If you, if you come upon this, help this, well then it just snowballed
until I did case after case, after case, after case, you know, hundred dogs.
So then by the time you've done that many and you've done it for that many years, I
Anke: had
Angie: a file of notes like that big, you know, from just like a five year
period, and then another five years, and then another five years, and then
video, and then I started turning it into systems, and then I started
turning it into videos with systems, and then I turned it into the book.
Um, and got it all into the forms of recipes and prescriptions.
So it's a 25 year journey, but the part that is missing about that,
and that's a way longer story for it, is that I was struggling during
that period of time with a, with a, a devastating medical condition.
And, and, and I, I basically lost my life.
I was on the last hours of my life and I was a recipient of a miracle.
And it's a long story.
And then I woke up and I realized that dogs are the reason why I got to live.
My work with dogs.
And so I said, I've spent my entire life.
Since that moment, trying to repay them for everything they did for me.
Everything they taught me and everything they do for humanity.
So that's the reason why I've done this for 28 years because I can't stop.
I don't, I owe it to them.
Anke: Love it so much.
Do you want to repeat the, I'm all teary now, so thanks mate.
Do you want to repeat the name of the book one more time?
Angie: Don't Train Your Dog.
It's a parenting to teaching good behavior, calming fear
and raising happy dogs.
Anke: Love it.
Well, thank you so much.
I think we definitely have at least another conversation or a masterclass.
So please let this not be the last time we speak.
Absolutely.
For today.
Angie: Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so
other dog lovers can find the show.
If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs.
com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal
stories to warm your dog loving heart.
And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview,
I'd love an introduction.
Email me at Anke.
That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.