WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.980 Matt Abrahams: Answers lead to destinations. 00:00:05.220 --> 00:00:07.170 Questions lead to journeys. 00:00:07.500 --> 00:00:10.530 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:10.530 --> 00:00:12.300 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.540 --> 00:00:15.840 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:16.410 --> 00:00:19.170 Today I look forward to speaking with Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. 00:00:19.530 --> 00:00:23.730 Bill is the executive director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford and an adjunct 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:25.440 professor in mechanical engineering. 00:00:25.935 --> 00:00:29.505 Dave is a lecturer in the product design program and co-founder 00:00:29.505 --> 00:00:31.125 of the Stanford Life Design Lab. 00:00:31.695 --> 00:00:34.995 Both have worked in various cool and influential jobs from Apple 00:00:34.995 --> 00:00:36.735 to Electronic Arts to Hasbro. 00:00:37.125 --> 00:00:40.215 Together they wrote the New York Times bestselling book, Designing 00:00:40.215 --> 00:00:44.114 Your Life, and their latest book is How to Live a Meaningful Life: Using 00:00:44.114 --> 00:00:49.185 Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy, and Flow in Everyday Life. 00:00:49.980 --> 00:00:52.529 Welcome, Bill and Dave, I am thrilled to have you here as 00:00:52.529 --> 00:00:55.860 somebody who is trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. 00:00:55.860 --> 00:00:57.929 I'm very excited for our conversation. 00:00:57.989 --> 00:00:58.440 Thanks. 00:00:58.739 --> 00:00:59.370 Dave Evans: Great to be here. 00:00:59.429 --> 00:00:59.610 Bill Burnett: Yeah. 00:00:59.610 --> 00:01:00.660 Thank you for inviting us. 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:01.559 Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started? 00:01:01.650 --> 00:01:01.980 Dave Evans: Let's go. 00:01:02.099 --> 00:01:02.580 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:02.849 --> 00:01:07.050 So, Dave, your new book provides useful tools for living a meaningful life. 00:01:07.320 --> 00:01:10.860 How do you and Bill define meaning and purpose, and why do 00:01:10.860 --> 00:01:13.554 you write that we don't need to know our true purpose after all? 00:01:14.044 --> 00:01:15.785 Dave Evans: Well, you know, we're user-centered designers. 00:01:15.785 --> 00:01:17.074 We live to reframe things. 00:01:17.074 --> 00:01:20.074 So the first thing the book does is reframe meaning and purpose. 00:01:20.104 --> 00:01:24.365 And so we're not after finding the meaning of your life or your one true 00:01:24.365 --> 00:01:28.205 purpose because we define the human being as a becoming, we're all a dynamic, 00:01:28.205 --> 00:01:29.975 flowing, constantly changing thing. 00:01:29.975 --> 00:01:32.975 So how could a changing thing have one static right answer? 00:01:33.065 --> 00:01:37.145 We encourage people to live meaningfully and direct their lives purposefully, and 00:01:37.145 --> 00:01:40.175 we've got some tools for how to do that, but we want you to be going the right 00:01:40.175 --> 00:01:41.824 direction, not find the right destination. 00:01:42.315 --> 00:01:46.155 Matt Abrahams: I love that idea and making those words adverbs can really help. 00:01:46.275 --> 00:01:48.490 Gimme an example of living life purposefully. 00:01:49.155 --> 00:01:52.695 Dave Evans: We talk about coherency a lot, and the whole idea is who I am and what I 00:01:52.695 --> 00:01:54.645 believe and what I'm doing in alignment. 00:01:54.975 --> 00:01:57.045 One of our tools is called a coherency side. 00:01:57.315 --> 00:02:00.195 We have a compass tool that helps you figure that out and write it 00:02:00.195 --> 00:02:02.895 down in less than three pages, and then you can catch yourself in the 00:02:02.895 --> 00:02:04.575 act of acting just like yourself. 00:02:04.575 --> 00:02:07.785 So this morning, I'm having a very coherent moment talking to Matt 00:02:07.965 --> 00:02:10.755 because he's interested in the same things we are and communicating 00:02:10.755 --> 00:02:11.805 to people, which is what we do. 00:02:11.805 --> 00:02:14.025 So man, I'm right on target right now. 00:02:14.325 --> 00:02:16.005 Matt Abrahams: So it's about reflecting and knowing your 00:02:16.005 --> 00:02:19.485 purpose, and from that you can then assess if you're in line or not. 00:02:19.635 --> 00:02:21.615 Dave Evans: Compasses say North, not Seattle. 00:02:21.645 --> 00:02:22.785 So am I going North? 00:02:22.785 --> 00:02:23.475 I'm doing the right thing. 00:02:23.715 --> 00:02:24.075 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:02:24.075 --> 00:02:24.585 Very good. 00:02:24.945 --> 00:02:27.705 Bill, your work in both your books focuses on design thinking. 00:02:27.705 --> 00:02:31.155 We've talked about design thinking on the show before, but for those who 00:02:31.185 --> 00:02:35.225 aren't familiar with it can you define what you mean by design thinking? 00:02:35.225 --> 00:02:37.745 What are some of the core concepts that you employ? 00:02:37.865 --> 00:02:40.745 Bill Burnett: Yeah, and it was the idea of taking engineering and adding 00:02:40.745 --> 00:02:44.435 in psychology, anthropology, and art, 'cause we should make beautiful things. 00:02:44.585 --> 00:02:47.675 But it was always rooted in the notion that you talk to humans about what 00:02:47.675 --> 00:02:50.975 they need and you try to understand them using anthropological tools 00:02:50.975 --> 00:02:52.475 like ethnography and other things. 00:02:52.565 --> 00:02:54.845 So we boiled it down to a five step process. 00:02:54.845 --> 00:02:56.495 Don't start with the problem, start with people. 00:02:56.495 --> 00:02:56.975 Empathy. 00:02:57.210 --> 00:02:58.560 It's the first step in design thinking. 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:00.360 Then define the right problem. 00:03:00.390 --> 00:03:03.660 'Cause oftentimes the problem you got is the wrong thing. 00:03:03.660 --> 00:03:05.220 It doesn't respond to the human need. 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:06.450 Then have lots of ideas. 00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:08.580 'Cause we know, as designers says, if you have lots of 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:09.870 ideas, you have better choices. 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:11.340 And then prototype and test. 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:15.940 Relentlessly test your hypothesis about the user with a prototype or prototypes, 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:20.130 not to prove you're right or wrong, it's just to explore the idea, and then test 00:03:20.130 --> 00:03:21.720 and then refine it and test and refine it. 00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:24.900 So it's a very empirical human-centered process. 00:03:25.430 --> 00:03:28.760 I took a full-time position here at Stanford in 2006, but I'd been teaching 00:03:28.790 --> 00:03:30.770 design to design students for a long time. 00:03:31.310 --> 00:03:35.120 When Dave came over in 2007 and proposed, Hey, let's do a class for the students. 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:36.530 Are they struggling to launch? 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:38.480 Are they concerned about meaning and purpose? 00:03:38.480 --> 00:03:41.480 I said, absolutely, and it seemed to me like it was a design problem. 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:43.460 We could prototype your future. 00:03:43.460 --> 00:03:46.250 We could interrogate, what do I need? 00:03:46.250 --> 00:03:48.110 Empathy for me, empathy for the world. 00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:48.980 What does the world need? 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:54.050 So the whole idea of using design thinking for life design just fell into place very 00:03:54.050 --> 00:03:56.210 quickly and the students really responded. 00:03:56.630 --> 00:03:59.750 Matt Abrahams: I think it's a wonderful toolkit to look at purpose 00:03:59.750 --> 00:04:03.050 and meaning, and I have benefited from it from the work you've done 00:04:03.050 --> 00:04:05.030 in my own life and my own searching. 00:04:05.470 --> 00:04:08.950 In your book Designing for Life, Dave, you leverage one of the tenets of 00:04:08.950 --> 00:04:13.690 design thinking when you advocate for prototyping conversations to gather data. 00:04:13.780 --> 00:04:17.170 What are prototyping conversations and what are some of the best 00:04:17.170 --> 00:04:18.730 practices for having them? 00:04:18.880 --> 00:04:21.009 Dave Evans: So again, as Bill just described in design thinking, a 00:04:21.010 --> 00:04:24.970 prototypes job is to ask an interesting question and learn your way forward. 00:04:25.030 --> 00:04:27.130 And I'm trying to design this thing called the future. 00:04:27.130 --> 00:04:29.230 I don't have any data, so you can't analyze it. 00:04:29.410 --> 00:04:33.640 So we have a very hands-on empirical bottom-up process that talks about 00:04:33.640 --> 00:04:35.370 gathering data through experiences. 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.610 And if I'm trying to design my life, I'm thinking about ways people live. 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.840 Oh, I can go visit the future by sitting down with a person who's doing the kind 00:04:43.840 --> 00:04:46.810 of thing or living the kinda lifestyle or believing the kind of thoughts that I'm 00:04:46.810 --> 00:04:51.220 contemplating considering so I could visit the future by entering into their story. 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:55.560 So that a life prototype is a conversation or an experience, and 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:57.600 importantly, it's not a transactional one. 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.150 Like, well, how much money do you make and do I need an MBA or not? 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:02.970 Those are interesting questions about the transaction of do I 00:05:02.970 --> 00:05:04.740 want to become Professor Matt? 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:08.760 But what I realized is so, wow, you communicate about communicating. 00:05:08.760 --> 00:05:10.320 How's that for you? 00:05:10.450 --> 00:05:12.940 That's the narrative story of the experience you're having, and 00:05:12.940 --> 00:05:16.450 we know neuroscientifically now, that if I actually get into your 00:05:16.450 --> 00:05:20.140 story, I'm actually having an experience walking along with you. 00:05:20.500 --> 00:05:24.010 Surrogation, as opposed to simulation, according to Dan Gilbert at Harvard. 00:05:24.010 --> 00:05:27.340 If I live into your life a little bit, I really can understand things 00:05:27.520 --> 00:05:28.810 differently than just reading data. 00:05:29.340 --> 00:05:31.860 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing what you mean by prototyping conversations. 00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:35.520 Bill, I want to talk about another concept that I really find interesting, 00:05:35.520 --> 00:05:38.430 which is the idea of an odyssey plan. 00:05:38.580 --> 00:05:40.050 What is an odyssey plan? 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:43.500 How should we develop them and how do we best then communicate them? 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:46.260 Bill Burnett: Well, I mentioned that one of the steps in the design process 00:05:46.260 --> 00:05:48.120 is ideation, having lots of ideas. 00:05:48.510 --> 00:05:51.990 And we know from lots of research from the business world that if you have a 00:05:51.990 --> 00:05:56.130 binary decision, an AB decision, you make a bad decision more than 50% of the time. 00:05:56.130 --> 00:05:57.530 So have more than two. 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.310 We do three odysseys, and there are three explorations of the 00:06:01.310 --> 00:06:02.480 next five years of your life. 00:06:02.510 --> 00:06:03.860 What might that be like? 00:06:04.100 --> 00:06:06.800 And typically odyssey one is whatever you're doing now, and it just goes 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.000 great for the first five years. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.360 Odyssey two, we suggest, Hey, what's your plan B? 00:06:10.630 --> 00:06:13.460 AI just took that job and that life is gone. 00:06:13.460 --> 00:06:17.090 You have to, you know, plan B. And then the wild card plan, the third plan, is 00:06:17.090 --> 00:06:20.000 what would you do if you had all the money and the resources that you needed? 00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:22.990 No one would say, well, that's a stupid thing. 00:06:23.260 --> 00:06:27.460 Why are you leaving a position at Stanford to go be a clown at Cirque Soleil? 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:28.900 Matt, that's crazy. 00:06:28.990 --> 00:06:31.270 So all your friends would say, whatever you're doing is great. 00:06:31.390 --> 00:06:35.020 Because a lot of times the social pressure of staying in their lane 00:06:35.020 --> 00:06:38.630 is so powerful that they can't even ideate about something different. 00:06:38.840 --> 00:06:42.410 So the idea is it's three completely different lives played out in five 00:06:42.410 --> 00:06:46.640 years and not just work stuff, but life stuff and family stuff, and 00:06:46.670 --> 00:06:48.080 your bucket list and everything else. 00:06:48.230 --> 00:06:52.610 And we find when people do three, not one or two, it really opens 00:06:52.610 --> 00:06:56.280 up the possibilities of what could happen in the next five years. 00:06:56.520 --> 00:06:58.290 Now, we're not suggesting that you pick one. 00:06:58.290 --> 00:06:59.520 They're not truly plans. 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:04.050 They're really just a chance to imagine yourself in three different futures. 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:06.990 And then one of the things we do is we say, okay, pick two of those 00:07:06.990 --> 00:07:08.520 futures and write me a story. 00:07:08.550 --> 00:07:09.690 It's four or five years from now. 00:07:09.690 --> 00:07:10.800 I say, Hey Matt, how you doing? 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:11.850 I ran into you to Starbucks. 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:12.270 How you doing? 00:07:12.270 --> 00:07:13.470 You say, I'm great. 00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:15.540 I go, Hey, what happened with that odyssey? 00:07:15.630 --> 00:07:16.710 And then you tell me. 00:07:16.950 --> 00:07:19.660 So you actually write a letter from the future back to yourself 00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:21.240 about what that Odyssey was like. 00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:24.669 Sometimes it's challenging for people to think of three things, but once they've 00:07:24.669 --> 00:07:29.200 actually got it and they get into it, developing these lives really changes 00:07:29.200 --> 00:07:30.969 their perspective on what's possible. 00:07:30.969 --> 00:07:33.400 And that's all we're trying to do is open up the solution space. 00:07:33.880 --> 00:07:36.070 Matt Abrahams: Bill, I want to go back to this idea of meaning. 00:07:36.070 --> 00:07:40.900 You both articulate four key components of meaning making. 00:07:41.054 --> 00:07:43.390 I'd love to hear more detail about those. 00:07:43.770 --> 00:07:46.140 Bill Burnett: We start with this idea of coherence and we have a little 00:07:46.140 --> 00:07:47.670 tool, as Dave said, we built a compass. 00:07:47.670 --> 00:07:50.310 You know, who you are, what's your story, what's your theory of work, 00:07:50.310 --> 00:07:52.950 and what's your theory of everything that's sort of transcendent? 00:07:53.370 --> 00:07:54.960 So coherence is the first part. 00:07:55.290 --> 00:07:56.700 Wonder is the second step. 00:07:56.700 --> 00:07:59.160 Wonder we describe as curiosity plus mystery. 00:07:59.460 --> 00:08:03.210 And so walking around the world with the sense of wonder. 00:08:03.609 --> 00:08:05.080 And then the idea of flow. 00:08:05.349 --> 00:08:08.349 We propose in the book, we live in two worlds, the transactional world 00:08:08.349 --> 00:08:09.700 of getting stuff done, which is great. 00:08:09.940 --> 00:08:13.330 And then right underneath that, kinda like an aquifer below the surface, is 00:08:13.330 --> 00:08:16.659 the flow world where we, where actually the flow world is where you will 00:08:16.659 --> 00:08:18.840 experience meaning and transcendence. 00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:21.300 And then the final element is community. 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.560 We have a mindset called, in creating your world, you create the world and you 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:26.940 create the story of the world you live in. 00:08:27.150 --> 00:08:30.510 And you surround yourself with relationships that are meaningful. 00:08:30.840 --> 00:08:33.090 It's all about community and relationships. 00:08:33.090 --> 00:08:39.510 So coherency, flow, wonder, and community are for meaning making methods. 00:08:40.260 --> 00:08:41.970 Dave Evans: Lemme double down on the community thing for a minute 00:08:41.970 --> 00:08:44.640 'cause there's social community where we gather to have a good time. 00:08:44.985 --> 00:08:48.195 Collaborative community where we gather to get something done, which most of your 00:08:48.205 --> 00:08:49.935 colleagues help us do over at the GSB. 00:08:50.305 --> 00:08:54.015 And there's a formative community where we are becoming together, 00:08:54.225 --> 00:08:55.335 and that's a fundamental shift. 00:08:55.335 --> 00:08:58.545 What we're finding is the overwhelming majority of modern people have lots 00:08:58.545 --> 00:09:01.935 of social and tons of collaborative community, which is wonderful. 00:09:02.145 --> 00:09:06.000 Getting something done together is very life-giving, but it's not 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.650 the same as becoming together. 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:10.020 So it's not, did you get it done, Matt? 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:11.190 Or how are we gonna do this together? 00:09:11.190 --> 00:09:12.660 Or wasn't it great when we won? 00:09:12.870 --> 00:09:16.860 It's like, so are you moving toward the better Bill, Bill? 00:09:17.040 --> 00:09:19.650 And that conversation we call the formative community, we have some tips for 00:09:19.650 --> 00:09:21.510 how to do that and it's very life-giving. 00:09:22.040 --> 00:09:23.420 Matt Abrahams: I wanna come back to those tips. 00:09:23.420 --> 00:09:26.240 I'm in the process of building one of those formative communities, and 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.440 I really appreciate how you delineate the different types of community. 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:34.520 The more I do the work I do in communication, the more important I 00:09:34.520 --> 00:09:36.680 see both context and community being. 00:09:37.425 --> 00:09:40.545 I wanna come back and share with us the wonder activity if you could. 00:09:40.875 --> 00:09:43.155 Dave Evans: We have a number of tools for each of these things, but the first 00:09:43.155 --> 00:09:44.805 one is put on your wonder glasses. 00:09:45.105 --> 00:09:47.985 And put on your wonder glasses means you could sit anywhere, and 00:09:47.985 --> 00:09:50.715 first of all, you look around the room with your regular glasses on. 00:09:50.715 --> 00:09:51.735 You just see the way the world is. 00:09:51.735 --> 00:09:53.805 Like, I'm in the studio and there's Gordon, he is working behind the 00:09:53.805 --> 00:09:55.455 desk and, and what do I notice? 00:09:55.455 --> 00:09:57.225 And then I see what's going on, and then I go, oh, there's a, 00:09:57.315 --> 00:09:58.725 the broom is next to the door. 00:09:58.725 --> 00:09:59.745 I wonder if that was forgotten. 00:09:59.805 --> 00:10:03.675 And so my eye naturally goes to things that want to turn into tasks. 00:10:03.990 --> 00:10:07.650 So suddenly my natural glasses sees the transactional world 00:10:07.650 --> 00:10:09.210 and what I need to go do next. 00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:10.590 And I go, thank you very much. 00:10:10.710 --> 00:10:14.850 Now take another look and just notice, and then what else comes to mind? 00:10:14.850 --> 00:10:19.500 And then I see this other really nice chair two clicks over from the broom, and 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:21.840 I'm thinking, huh, that's an empty chair. 00:10:21.930 --> 00:10:26.245 And then my wonder glasses look on, like I wonder who might sit in that chair next. 00:10:26.605 --> 00:10:30.955 I wonder what conversations happen in this room, very thoughtful people. 00:10:31.135 --> 00:10:35.365 Isn't it great there's an institution dedicated to thoughtful conversation, and 00:10:35.365 --> 00:10:39.745 then I can just appreciate that and so in about a minute, I go from, oh, I gotta 00:10:39.745 --> 00:10:44.315 call Patrick back, to, I get to be in deep conversations as part of a long tradition. 00:10:44.590 --> 00:10:46.570 That's a real joy and I'm so grateful for it. 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:48.760 That's the wonder glasses, and you can do it anytime. 00:10:48.880 --> 00:10:52.540 Matt Abrahams: I love the idea of wonder glasses, and it really, to 00:10:52.540 --> 00:10:55.480 me, it sounds like it's all about curiosity and allowing yourself 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.250 to more deeply think about things. 00:10:57.550 --> 00:11:00.700 You did something there in your example that I really wanna highlight. 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:04.930 When you transition from the transactional view of the world 00:11:04.930 --> 00:11:09.314 to the wondering, curiosity view, you simply said, thank you. 00:11:09.314 --> 00:11:11.145 I see that, but I wanna look differently. 00:11:11.145 --> 00:11:15.375 Many of us beat ourselves up or say, oh, I shouldn't be doing that. 00:11:15.375 --> 00:11:16.995 That's the wrong way to approach things. 00:11:17.235 --> 00:11:19.275 And you simply acknowledge and move on. 00:11:19.335 --> 00:11:23.145 And that to me, I think is a key element in this flow state. 00:11:23.415 --> 00:11:26.954 Dave Evans: Well, again, we have this framing that so many people 00:11:26.954 --> 00:11:29.775 came to us where we redesigned our lives, but it's still not as 00:11:29.775 --> 00:11:31.425 fulfilling or meaningful as I thought. 00:11:31.425 --> 00:11:32.564 What did I do wrong? 00:11:32.564 --> 00:11:33.885 We go, oh, we got that problem. 00:11:34.035 --> 00:11:35.714 So that's where this recent book came from. 00:11:35.834 --> 00:11:39.824 And as we listened to them, they overwhelmingly described lives lived 00:11:39.824 --> 00:11:41.625 entirely in the transactional world. 00:11:41.805 --> 00:11:43.155 Now there is only one world. 00:11:43.479 --> 00:11:45.609 But our brains can't handle the whole thing all at once. 00:11:45.609 --> 00:11:46.660 We have modalities. 00:11:46.990 --> 00:11:50.589 So we're inviting people to spend more time in the flow world, which is the 00:11:50.589 --> 00:11:54.280 present moment through which the entire coursing cosmos is under our feet and 00:11:54.280 --> 00:11:55.510 in front of our eyes all the time. 00:11:55.750 --> 00:11:59.010 That present moment, which is different than the transaction in the future. 00:11:59.280 --> 00:12:02.015 And so the reason we have a friendly relationship between the 00:12:02.015 --> 00:12:05.285 transactional world and the flow world and transactional thinking, or 00:12:05.285 --> 00:12:08.795 achieving brain and flow thinking, or the awakened brain, is because 00:12:08.795 --> 00:12:10.265 they're friends, we need them both. 00:12:10.325 --> 00:12:11.735 Somebody's gotta take out the trash. 00:12:12.065 --> 00:12:14.495 So there's nothing wrong with the transactional world. 00:12:14.495 --> 00:12:18.305 And we accept the fact that most of us are overwhelmingly biased that way because 00:12:18.305 --> 00:12:22.160 the systems of the world all run on that all the time, so cut yourself some slack. 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:24.740 All we're trying to do is get better, and I don't need more 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:26.030 reasons to critique myself. 00:12:26.030 --> 00:12:28.280 Frankly, that's just the transactional world catching me in 00:12:28.280 --> 00:12:29.480 the act of doing something wrong. 00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:30.920 I'm just trying to become a person. 00:12:31.130 --> 00:12:33.590 Matt Abrahams: That's a fundamental mindset shift, but when you do it, 00:12:33.590 --> 00:12:35.780 it allows access to this flow state. 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:36.800 Bill Burnett: Yeah, and it's always there. 00:12:36.950 --> 00:12:37.280 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:39.290 It's just giving yourself permission to see it. 00:12:39.530 --> 00:12:41.300 Let's go back to formative communities. 00:12:41.420 --> 00:12:42.380 How do you build these? 00:12:42.380 --> 00:12:44.960 How do you find the people to support you? 00:12:45.050 --> 00:12:46.910 What's involved in building that? 00:12:47.180 --> 00:12:48.200 Dave Evans: It's all about the question. 00:12:48.530 --> 00:12:50.870 So I start with the definition, you know, Bill and I have been talking 00:12:50.870 --> 00:12:51.800 about people for a long time. 00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:52.910 We do human-centered design. 00:12:52.910 --> 00:12:55.130 So our definition of the human is a becoming. 00:12:55.400 --> 00:12:58.070 So then if I'm becoming, what am I becoming into? 00:12:58.340 --> 00:13:00.860 So then it begets what's the question I'm living into? 00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:03.230 And one of the unfair ways to divide the world in two is there are the 00:13:03.230 --> 00:13:05.960 people who run around rehearsing their answer and the people who 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:07.400 run around living their question. 00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:10.730 So if you wanna live a becoming growth oriented life, now 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:11.840 you're living into the question. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.324 So the question is what am I living into? 00:13:14.564 --> 00:13:18.045 So I'm seventy-two, I've got eleven grandkids, and the question I'm asking is, 00:13:18.285 --> 00:13:22.574 am I ready to shift out of a role-based life into a more soul-based life? 00:13:22.574 --> 00:13:26.865 And how can I have my primary verb shift from got to to get to. 00:13:27.045 --> 00:13:30.194 Now, that's not the same as, I gotta call Patrick back, that I mentioned earlier. 00:13:30.285 --> 00:13:31.785 That's my transactional task list. 00:13:31.785 --> 00:13:35.145 I've still got a task list, but the question I'm living into is I wanna 00:13:35.145 --> 00:13:38.384 spend more time doing get to not got to. 00:13:38.644 --> 00:13:39.585 How do I do that? 00:13:39.735 --> 00:13:42.795 So you start coming up with those questions and ask that of 00:13:42.795 --> 00:13:45.045 yourself, and then find others who wanna ask that question. 00:13:45.135 --> 00:13:48.405 And you start by having a dinner and let's ask more interesting questions. 00:13:48.405 --> 00:13:50.085 And if people like it, do it again. 00:13:50.115 --> 00:13:53.145 And then, you know, read a book together and then say, I think we got a group here. 00:13:53.535 --> 00:13:55.965 Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of the question I am living into 00:13:56.085 --> 00:13:57.945 instead of just being the answers. 00:13:57.975 --> 00:13:59.265 Dave Evans: Yeah, we call that the focus question. 00:13:59.865 --> 00:14:03.675 Matt Abrahams: Bill, the book also talks about the practice to production trap. 00:14:03.735 --> 00:14:06.405 What is this and how do we avoid the trap? 00:14:06.675 --> 00:14:09.855 Bill Burnett: So we always do this, we turn what could be a beautiful 00:14:09.855 --> 00:14:12.975 moment and it's like, it's one of the things to say, what a beautiful sunset. 00:14:12.975 --> 00:14:14.355 I long for beauty. 00:14:14.655 --> 00:14:17.055 It's another thing to say, well, that sunset was okay, 00:14:17.055 --> 00:14:18.165 but I've seen better ones. 00:14:18.165 --> 00:14:20.055 You know, where, where could I go to find a better one? 00:14:20.370 --> 00:14:25.260 And so every time we take a potentially meaningful moment and turn it into 00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:27.915 another item on our to-do list, we try to make it more efficient. 00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:32.099 Practice to production is making everything a production, a transaction 00:14:32.099 --> 00:14:33.030 in the transactional world. 00:14:33.030 --> 00:14:37.260 It's a big trap and you just want to be aware of it because the beauty of 00:14:37.260 --> 00:14:39.959 the sunset is beauty in and of itself. 00:14:39.990 --> 00:14:41.880 It's a completely whole moment. 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.339 Don't turn everything into a transaction. 00:14:44.579 --> 00:14:45.390 That's the trap. 00:14:45.510 --> 00:14:49.079 You know, people just all the time to themselves, they rob themselves 00:14:49.079 --> 00:14:52.800 of the chance of having a little moment of meaning by judging and 00:14:53.010 --> 00:14:54.689 making it performative or whatever. 00:14:55.050 --> 00:14:56.340 Dave Evans: You gotta channel the Beatles. 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.150 So you're, you're doing your practice and the voice pops up, like, you could do this 00:15:00.150 --> 00:15:03.300 better and then let it be, just let it be. 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:05.460 Matt Abrahams: But first you have to be aware that that's what's happening. 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:05.760 Dave Evans: Yeah. 00:15:05.760 --> 00:15:06.425 And you have to like the Beatles. 00:15:07.890 --> 00:15:08.310 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:15:08.310 --> 00:15:10.110 This has been a fantastic conversation. 00:15:10.140 --> 00:15:13.590 Before we end, I like to ask three questions of all my guests. 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.560 One I create just for you all and then two, I've been asking forever. 00:15:16.770 --> 00:15:17.490 You guys up for that? 00:15:17.550 --> 00:15:17.730 Dave Evans: Yep. 00:15:17.790 --> 00:15:18.060 Bill Burnett: Sure. 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.530 Matt Abrahams: Dave, I'm gonna start with you. 00:15:19.770 --> 00:15:23.870 You both have been communicating about finding meaning, 00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:25.880 purpose, life for a long time. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:29.000 What are some best practices you have found for helping 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.830 communicate your messages clearly? 00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:31.819 We've seen it play out here. 00:15:31.819 --> 00:15:34.040 You give lots of examples, you bring lots of energy. 00:15:34.189 --> 00:15:37.010 Talk to me about how you strategically think about how 00:15:37.010 --> 00:15:38.480 you communicate your messages. 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:39.930 Dave Evans: We're narrative animals. 00:15:40.199 --> 00:15:41.699 We're human-centered designers. 00:15:41.699 --> 00:15:43.500 It's about the listener, the user, the reader. 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:44.250 It's about the reader. 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:44.970 It's about the reader. 00:15:44.970 --> 00:15:45.630 It's about the reader. 00:15:45.630 --> 00:15:46.350 It's not about you. 00:15:46.650 --> 00:15:49.170 And the last thing is they never know what you don't say. 00:15:49.439 --> 00:15:50.130 It's about the user. 00:15:50.130 --> 00:15:52.560 Keep it a story and don't worry about the stuff you're not saying. 00:15:53.040 --> 00:15:55.079 Matt Abrahams: Many of the listeners have heard me say this before. 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:57.660 A piece of advice my mother, unfortunately, has to constantly 00:15:57.660 --> 00:15:59.490 remind me of is tell the time. 00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:00.569 Don't build the clock. 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.270 I'd love to hear from both of you and we'll start with you, Bill. 00:16:03.390 --> 00:16:05.885 Who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:08.970 Bill Burnett: Sir Ken Robinson, who I think still has one of 00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:10.530 the most popular TED Talks ever. 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.230 And he was an educator and was communicating about education and the 00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:15.180 importance of creativity in education. 00:16:15.180 --> 00:16:16.199 So I loved his message. 00:16:16.290 --> 00:16:20.640 And he was funny and self-deprecating, and he is just fantastic communicator. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.880 And Richard Feynman, who was the, he is probably the only guy who 00:16:23.880 --> 00:16:26.310 could ever explain physics to me in a way I could understand. 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:29.400 And he did all the math and all the equations, but he made it a story. 00:16:29.520 --> 00:16:29.880 It's great. 00:16:30.344 --> 00:16:30.974 Matt Abrahams: Dave, how about you? 00:16:30.974 --> 00:16:32.655 Who's a communicator you admire and why? 00:16:32.745 --> 00:16:35.084 Dave Evans: Recently I decided I, my current favorites are 00:16:35.084 --> 00:16:36.525 Anderson Cooper and Ken Burns. 00:16:36.854 --> 00:16:42.224 Anderson is a lovely journalist and gets to the story, and Ken Burns manages, he 00:16:42.224 --> 00:16:44.115 actually returns us into the history. 00:16:44.115 --> 00:16:44.954 He doesn't talk about it. 00:16:45.135 --> 00:16:46.035 And he's brilliant at it. 00:16:46.035 --> 00:16:48.865 He's been doing it for 50 years and I still find him riveting. 00:16:49.410 --> 00:16:50.040 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:52.050 Four amazing communicators. 00:16:52.050 --> 00:16:52.590 Thank you. 00:16:52.949 --> 00:16:56.970 Bill, we heard Dave's answer, which essentially was three key ingredients 00:16:56.970 --> 00:16:58.650 to successful communication. 00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:01.590 I'm curious to get your first three ingredients that go into a 00:17:01.590 --> 00:17:03.630 successful communication recipe. 00:17:04.050 --> 00:17:06.840 Bill Burnett: When I first heard that question, I was thinking more 00:17:06.840 --> 00:17:10.470 about one-on-one communication, particularly communicating with my 00:17:10.470 --> 00:17:12.030 wife or communicating with a friend. 00:17:12.390 --> 00:17:15.600 And so it was empathy 'cause that's where designers start, right? 00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:18.480 And then assuming the best of the other person. 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.790 'Cause we're always in these conversations and people are not 00:17:20.790 --> 00:17:22.320 giving people the benefit of the doubt. 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:26.490 And then yeah, prototyping tests because, uh, one of my favorite, Scott 00:17:26.490 --> 00:17:29.550 Galloway says, uh, you can't read the label from inside the bottle. 00:17:29.790 --> 00:17:33.360 And even though you think you're being very clear, unless you try 00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:36.000 it with somebody and then you say, okay, what did I just say? 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.290 And then they say, I don't have no idea. 00:17:37.410 --> 00:17:40.770 Prototyping tests, because you don't know if it's gonna communicate what you want to 00:17:40.800 --> 00:17:42.825 communicate until somebody else hears it. 00:17:43.439 --> 00:17:45.149 Matt Abrahams: Amazing ingredients there. 00:17:45.149 --> 00:17:49.050 I wanna just put an exclamation point around the fact that you practice 00:17:49.320 --> 00:17:51.659 and you prototype your talks. 00:17:51.929 --> 00:17:56.429 So many people, either based on being so busy or so nervous, 00:17:56.669 --> 00:17:57.960 don't take the time to do it. 00:17:58.260 --> 00:18:02.100 And somebody like you who has been doing this for a long time still does that. 00:18:02.159 --> 00:18:04.139 Just really shows how important that is. 00:18:04.169 --> 00:18:04.685 Thank you both. 00:18:05.055 --> 00:18:08.955 The idea that when we communicate, we give people an entire experience. 00:18:08.955 --> 00:18:11.505 You have given us a very meaningful experience. 00:18:11.655 --> 00:18:15.255 This idea of role to soul I really like. 00:18:15.375 --> 00:18:18.885 We all have that opportunity to go deeper, to be in that moment. 00:18:19.095 --> 00:18:24.525 And the tools you provide to help us figure out how to live purposefully 00:18:24.525 --> 00:18:27.705 and meaningfully really hit home for me and hopefully for all of our listeners. 00:18:27.855 --> 00:18:30.675 Best of luck with your new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life. 00:18:30.675 --> 00:18:31.335 Thanks for being here. 00:18:31.395 --> 00:18:32.145 Dave Evans: Matt, thanks so much. 00:18:32.205 --> 00:18:32.655 Bill Burnett: Thank you. 00:18:35.010 --> 00:18:36.899 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:18:36.899 --> 00:18:38.550 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:18:39.165 --> 00:18:42.965 To learn more about life and purpose, please listen to episode 181 with Arthur 00:18:42.965 --> 00:18:45.675 Brooks and episode 138 with Graham Weaver. 00:18:46.095 --> 00:18:50.595 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:18:50.835 --> 00:18:52.365 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:18:52.485 --> 00:18:54.585 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:18:54.915 --> 00:18:58.035 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:18:58.215 --> 00:18:59.940 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:00.524 --> 00:19:03.645 Also follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok. 00:19:04.004 --> 00:19:07.995 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:19:07.995 --> 00:19:10.004 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:10.455 --> 00:19:13.814 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:19:13.814 --> 00:19:15.054 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:19:16.725 --> 00:19:19.725 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, 00:19:19.725 --> 00:19:22.094 our AI coaches, and book club.