Matt Abrahams: Answers lead to destinations.
Questions lead to journeys.
My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with Bill Burnett and Dave Evans.
Bill is the executive director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford and an adjunct
professor in mechanical engineering.
Dave is a lecturer in the product design program and co-founder
of the Stanford Life Design Lab.
Both have worked in various cool and influential jobs from Apple
to Electronic Arts to Hasbro.
Together they wrote the New York Times bestselling book, Designing
Your Life, and their latest book is How to Live a Meaningful Life: Using
Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy, and Flow in Everyday Life.
Welcome, Bill and Dave, I am thrilled to have you here as
somebody who is trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.
I'm very excited for our conversation.
Thanks.
Dave Evans: Great to be here.
Bill Burnett: Yeah.
Thank you for inviting us.
Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started?
Dave Evans: Let's go.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
So, Dave, your new book provides useful tools for living a meaningful life.
How do you and Bill define meaning and purpose, and why do
you write that we don't need to know our true purpose after all?
Dave Evans: Well, you know, we're user-centered designers.
We live to reframe things.
So the first thing the book does is reframe meaning and purpose.
And so we're not after finding the meaning of your life or your one true
purpose because we define the human being as a becoming, we're all a dynamic,
flowing, constantly changing thing.
So how could a changing thing have one static right answer?
We encourage people to live meaningfully and direct their lives purposefully, and
we've got some tools for how to do that, but we want you to be going the right
direction, not find the right destination.
Matt Abrahams: I love that idea and making those words adverbs can really help.
Gimme an example of living life purposefully.
Dave Evans: We talk about coherency a lot, and the whole idea is who I am and what I
believe and what I'm doing in alignment.
One of our tools is called a coherency side.
We have a compass tool that helps you figure that out and write it
down in less than three pages, and then you can catch yourself in the
act of acting just like yourself.
So this morning, I'm having a very coherent moment talking to Matt
because he's interested in the same things we are and communicating
to people, which is what we do.
So man, I'm right on target right now.
Matt Abrahams: So it's about reflecting and knowing your
purpose, and from that you can then assess if you're in line or not.
Dave Evans: Compasses say North, not Seattle.
So am I going North?
I'm doing the right thing.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Very good.
Bill, your work in both your books focuses on design thinking.
We've talked about design thinking on the show before, but for those who
aren't familiar with it can you define what you mean by design thinking?
What are some of the core concepts that you employ?
Bill Burnett: Yeah, and it was the idea of taking engineering and adding
in psychology, anthropology, and art, 'cause we should make beautiful things.
But it was always rooted in the notion that you talk to humans about what
they need and you try to understand them using anthropological tools
like ethnography and other things.
So we boiled it down to a five step process.
Don't start with the problem, start with people.
Empathy.
It's the first step in design thinking.
Then define the right problem.
'Cause oftentimes the problem you got is the wrong thing.
It doesn't respond to the human need.
Then have lots of ideas.
'Cause we know, as designers says, if you have lots of
ideas, you have better choices.
And then prototype and test.
Relentlessly test your hypothesis about the user with a prototype or prototypes,
not to prove you're right or wrong, it's just to explore the idea, and then test
and then refine it and test and refine it.
So it's a very empirical human-centered process.
I took a full-time position here at Stanford in 2006, but I'd been teaching
design to design students for a long time.
When Dave came over in 2007 and proposed, Hey, let's do a class for the students.
Are they struggling to launch?
Are they concerned about meaning and purpose?
I said, absolutely, and it seemed to me like it was a design problem.
We could prototype your future.
We could interrogate, what do I need?
Empathy for me, empathy for the world.
What does the world need?
So the whole idea of using design thinking for life design just fell into place very
quickly and the students really responded.
Matt Abrahams: I think it's a wonderful toolkit to look at purpose
and meaning, and I have benefited from it from the work you've done
in my own life and my own searching.
In your book Designing for Life, Dave, you leverage one of the tenets of
design thinking when you advocate for prototyping conversations to gather data.
What are prototyping conversations and what are some of the best
practices for having them?
Dave Evans: So again, as Bill just described in design thinking, a
prototypes job is to ask an interesting question and learn your way forward.
And I'm trying to design this thing called the future.
I don't have any data, so you can't analyze it.
So we have a very hands-on empirical bottom-up process that talks about
gathering data through experiences.
And if I'm trying to design my life, I'm thinking about ways people live.
Oh, I can go visit the future by sitting down with a person who's doing the kind
of thing or living the kinda lifestyle or believing the kind of thoughts that I'm
contemplating considering so I could visit the future by entering into their story.
So that a life prototype is a conversation or an experience, and
importantly, it's not a transactional one.
Like, well, how much money do you make and do I need an MBA or not?
Those are interesting questions about the transaction of do I
want to become Professor Matt?
But what I realized is so, wow, you communicate about communicating.
How's that for you?
That's the narrative story of the experience you're having, and
we know neuroscientifically now, that if I actually get into your
story, I'm actually having an experience walking along with you.
Surrogation, as opposed to simulation, according to Dan Gilbert at Harvard.
If I live into your life a little bit, I really can understand things
differently than just reading data.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing what you mean by prototyping conversations.
Bill, I want to talk about another concept that I really find interesting,
which is the idea of an odyssey plan.
What is an odyssey plan?
How should we develop them and how do we best then communicate them?
Bill Burnett: Well, I mentioned that one of the steps in the design process
is ideation, having lots of ideas.
And we know from lots of research from the business world that if you have a
binary decision, an AB decision, you make a bad decision more than 50% of the time.
So have more than two.
We do three odysseys, and there are three explorations of the
next five years of your life.
What might that be like?
And typically odyssey one is whatever you're doing now, and it just goes
great for the first five years.
Odyssey two, we suggest, Hey, what's your plan B?
AI just took that job and that life is gone.
You have to, you know, plan B. And then the wild card plan, the third plan, is
what would you do if you had all the money and the resources that you needed?
No one would say, well, that's a stupid thing.
Why are you leaving a position at Stanford to go be a clown at Cirque Soleil?
Matt, that's crazy.
So all your friends would say, whatever you're doing is great.
Because a lot of times the social pressure of staying in their lane
is so powerful that they can't even ideate about something different.
So the idea is it's three completely different lives played out in five
years and not just work stuff, but life stuff and family stuff, and
your bucket list and everything else.
And we find when people do three, not one or two, it really opens
up the possibilities of what could happen in the next five years.
Now, we're not suggesting that you pick one.
They're not truly plans.
They're really just a chance to imagine yourself in three different futures.
And then one of the things we do is we say, okay, pick two of those
futures and write me a story.
It's four or five years from now.
I say, Hey Matt, how you doing?
I ran into you to Starbucks.
How you doing?
You say, I'm great.
I go, Hey, what happened with that odyssey?
And then you tell me.
So you actually write a letter from the future back to yourself
about what that Odyssey was like.
Sometimes it's challenging for people to think of three things, but once they've
actually got it and they get into it, developing these lives really changes
their perspective on what's possible.
And that's all we're trying to do is open up the solution space.
Matt Abrahams: Bill, I want to go back to this idea of meaning.
You both articulate four key components of meaning making.
I'd love to hear more detail about those.
Bill Burnett: We start with this idea of coherence and we have a little
tool, as Dave said, we built a compass.
You know, who you are, what's your story, what's your theory of work,
and what's your theory of everything that's sort of transcendent?
So coherence is the first part.
Wonder is the second step.
Wonder we describe as curiosity plus mystery.
And so walking around the world with the sense of wonder.
And then the idea of flow.
We propose in the book, we live in two worlds, the transactional world
of getting stuff done, which is great.
And then right underneath that, kinda like an aquifer below the surface, is
the flow world where we, where actually the flow world is where you will
experience meaning and transcendence.
And then the final element is community.
We have a mindset called, in creating your world, you create the world and you
create the story of the world you live in.
And you surround yourself with relationships that are meaningful.
It's all about community and relationships.
So coherency, flow, wonder, and community are for meaning making methods.
Dave Evans: Lemme double down on the community thing for a minute
'cause there's social community where we gather to have a good time.
Collaborative community where we gather to get something done, which most of your
colleagues help us do over at the GSB.
And there's a formative community where we are becoming together,
and that's a fundamental shift.
What we're finding is the overwhelming majority of modern people have lots
of social and tons of collaborative community, which is wonderful.
Getting something done together is very life-giving, but it's not
the same as becoming together.
So it's not, did you get it done, Matt?
Or how are we gonna do this together?
Or wasn't it great when we won?
It's like, so are you moving toward the better Bill, Bill?
And that conversation we call the formative community, we have some tips for
how to do that and it's very life-giving.
Matt Abrahams: I wanna come back to those tips.
I'm in the process of building one of those formative communities, and
I really appreciate how you delineate the different types of community.
The more I do the work I do in communication, the more important I
see both context and community being.
I wanna come back and share with us the wonder activity if you could.
Dave Evans: We have a number of tools for each of these things, but the first
one is put on your wonder glasses.
And put on your wonder glasses means you could sit anywhere, and
first of all, you look around the room with your regular glasses on.
You just see the way the world is.
Like, I'm in the studio and there's Gordon, he is working behind the
desk and, and what do I notice?
And then I see what's going on, and then I go, oh, there's a,
the broom is next to the door.
I wonder if that was forgotten.
And so my eye naturally goes to things that want to turn into tasks.
So suddenly my natural glasses sees the transactional world
and what I need to go do next.
And I go, thank you very much.
Now take another look and just notice, and then what else comes to mind?
And then I see this other really nice chair two clicks over from the broom, and
I'm thinking, huh, that's an empty chair.
And then my wonder glasses look on, like I wonder who might sit in that chair next.
I wonder what conversations happen in this room, very thoughtful people.
Isn't it great there's an institution dedicated to thoughtful conversation, and
then I can just appreciate that and so in about a minute, I go from, oh, I gotta
call Patrick back, to, I get to be in deep conversations as part of a long tradition.
That's a real joy and I'm so grateful for it.
That's the wonder glasses, and you can do it anytime.
Matt Abrahams: I love the idea of wonder glasses, and it really, to
me, it sounds like it's all about curiosity and allowing yourself
to more deeply think about things.
You did something there in your example that I really wanna highlight.
When you transition from the transactional view of the world
to the wondering, curiosity view, you simply said, thank you.
I see that, but I wanna look differently.
Many of us beat ourselves up or say, oh, I shouldn't be doing that.
That's the wrong way to approach things.
And you simply acknowledge and move on.
And that to me, I think is a key element in this flow state.
Dave Evans: Well, again, we have this framing that so many people
came to us where we redesigned our lives, but it's still not as
fulfilling or meaningful as I thought.
What did I do wrong?
We go, oh, we got that problem.
So that's where this recent book came from.
And as we listened to them, they overwhelmingly described lives lived
entirely in the transactional world.
Now there is only one world.
But our brains can't handle the whole thing all at once.
We have modalities.
So we're inviting people to spend more time in the flow world, which is the
present moment through which the entire coursing cosmos is under our feet and
in front of our eyes all the time.
That present moment, which is different than the transaction in the future.
And so the reason we have a friendly relationship between the
transactional world and the flow world and transactional thinking, or
achieving brain and flow thinking, or the awakened brain, is because
they're friends, we need them both.
Somebody's gotta take out the trash.
So there's nothing wrong with the transactional world.
And we accept the fact that most of us are overwhelmingly biased that way because
the systems of the world all run on that all the time, so cut yourself some slack.
All we're trying to do is get better, and I don't need more
reasons to critique myself.
Frankly, that's just the transactional world catching me in
the act of doing something wrong.
I'm just trying to become a person.
Matt Abrahams: That's a fundamental mindset shift, but when you do it,
it allows access to this flow state.
Bill Burnett: Yeah, and it's always there.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
It's just giving yourself permission to see it.
Let's go back to formative communities.
How do you build these?
How do you find the people to support you?
What's involved in building that?
Dave Evans: It's all about the question.
So I start with the definition, you know, Bill and I have been talking
about people for a long time.
We do human-centered design.
So our definition of the human is a becoming.
So then if I'm becoming, what am I becoming into?
So then it begets what's the question I'm living into?
And one of the unfair ways to divide the world in two is there are the
people who run around rehearsing their answer and the people who
run around living their question.
So if you wanna live a becoming growth oriented life, now
you're living into the question.
So the question is what am I living into?
So I'm seventy-two, I've got eleven grandkids, and the question I'm asking is,
am I ready to shift out of a role-based life into a more soul-based life?
And how can I have my primary verb shift from got to to get to.
Now, that's not the same as, I gotta call Patrick back, that I mentioned earlier.
That's my transactional task list.
I've still got a task list, but the question I'm living into is I wanna
spend more time doing get to not got to.
How do I do that?
So you start coming up with those questions and ask that of
yourself, and then find others who wanna ask that question.
And you start by having a dinner and let's ask more interesting questions.
And if people like it, do it again.
And then, you know, read a book together and then say, I think we got a group here.
Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of the question I am living into
instead of just being the answers.
Dave Evans: Yeah, we call that the focus question.
Matt Abrahams: Bill, the book also talks about the practice to production trap.
What is this and how do we avoid the trap?
Bill Burnett: So we always do this, we turn what could be a beautiful
moment and it's like, it's one of the things to say, what a beautiful sunset.
I long for beauty.
It's another thing to say, well, that sunset was okay,
but I've seen better ones.
You know, where, where could I go to find a better one?
And so every time we take a potentially meaningful moment and turn it into
another item on our to-do list, we try to make it more efficient.
Practice to production is making everything a production, a transaction
in the transactional world.
It's a big trap and you just want to be aware of it because the beauty of
the sunset is beauty in and of itself.
It's a completely whole moment.
Don't turn everything into a transaction.
That's the trap.
You know, people just all the time to themselves, they rob themselves
of the chance of having a little moment of meaning by judging and
making it performative or whatever.
Dave Evans: You gotta channel the Beatles.
So you're, you're doing your practice and the voice pops up, like, you could do this
better and then let it be, just let it be.
Matt Abrahams: But first you have to be aware that that's what's happening.
Dave Evans: Yeah.
And you have to like the Beatles.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you.
This has been a fantastic conversation.
Before we end, I like to ask three questions of all my guests.
One I create just for you all and then two, I've been asking forever.
You guys up for that?
Dave Evans: Yep.
Bill Burnett: Sure.
Matt Abrahams: Dave, I'm gonna start with you.
You both have been communicating about finding meaning,
purpose, life for a long time.
What are some best practices you have found for helping
communicate your messages clearly?
We've seen it play out here.
You give lots of examples, you bring lots of energy.
Talk to me about how you strategically think about how
you communicate your messages.
Dave Evans: We're narrative animals.
We're human-centered designers.
It's about the listener, the user, the reader.
It's about the reader.
It's not about you.
And the last thing is they never know what you don't say.
It's about the user.
Keep it a story and don't worry about the stuff you're not saying.
Matt Abrahams: Many of the listeners have heard me say this before.
A piece of advice my mother, unfortunately, has to constantly
remind me of is tell the time.
Don't build the clock.
I'd love to hear from both of you and we'll start with you, Bill.
Who's a communicator that you admire and why?
Bill Burnett: Sir Ken Robinson, who I think still has one of
the most popular TED Talks ever.
And he was an educator and was communicating about education and the
importance of creativity in education.
So I loved his message.
And he was funny and self-deprecating, and he is just fantastic communicator.
And Richard Feynman, who was the, he is probably the only guy who
could ever explain physics to me in a way I could understand.
And he did all the math and all the equations, but he made it a story.
It's great.
Matt Abrahams: Dave, how about you?
Who's a communicator you admire and why?
Dave Evans: Recently I decided I, my current favorites are
Anderson Cooper and Ken Burns.
Anderson is a lovely journalist and gets to the story, and Ken Burns manages, he
actually returns us into the history.
He doesn't talk about it.
And he's brilliant at it.
He's been doing it for 50 years and I still find him riveting.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Four amazing communicators.
Thank you.
Bill, we heard Dave's answer, which essentially was three key ingredients
to successful communication.
I'm curious to get your first three ingredients that go into a
successful communication recipe.
Bill Burnett: When I first heard that question, I was thinking more
about one-on-one communication, particularly communicating with my
wife or communicating with a friend.
And so it was empathy 'cause that's where designers start, right?
And then assuming the best of the other person.
'Cause we're always in these conversations and people are not
giving people the benefit of the doubt.
And then yeah, prototyping tests because, uh, one of my favorite, Scott
Galloway says, uh, you can't read the label from inside the bottle.
And even though you think you're being very clear, unless you try
it with somebody and then you say, okay, what did I just say?
And then they say, I don't have no idea.
Prototyping tests, because you don't know if it's gonna communicate what you want to
communicate until somebody else hears it.
Matt Abrahams: Amazing ingredients there.
I wanna just put an exclamation point around the fact that you practice
and you prototype your talks.
So many people, either based on being so busy or so nervous,
don't take the time to do it.
And somebody like you who has been doing this for a long time still does that.
Just really shows how important that is.
Thank you both.
The idea that when we communicate, we give people an entire experience.
You have given us a very meaningful experience.
This idea of role to soul I really like.
We all have that opportunity to go deeper, to be in that moment.
And the tools you provide to help us figure out how to live purposefully
and meaningfully really hit home for me and hopefully for all of our listeners.
Best of luck with your new book, How to Live a Meaningful Life.
Thanks for being here.
Dave Evans: Matt, thanks so much.
Bill Burnett: Thank you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about life and purpose, please listen to episode 181 with Arthur
Brooks and episode 138 with Graham Weaver.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.
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