WEBVTT

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Matt Abrahams: We are all
part of the creator economy.

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We're all creators.

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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today I look forward to speaking
with an Angèle, Christin.

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Angèle is an associate professor
of communication and sociology at

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Stanford University, along with
being a senior fellow at Stanford's

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Human-centered AI Institute.

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Her work examines the social
impact of algorithms and AI.

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She's the author of several books with
a new book coming out in fall of 2026.

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Well, welcome Angèle.

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I am thrilled to learn from you today.

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Thanks for being here.

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Angèle Christin: Thank
you for inviting me.

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Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

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Shall we get started?

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Angèle Christin: Yes, absolutely.

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Matt Abrahams: Your research looks
at how metrics drive creators

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towards spectacle and drama.

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Can you share some insights and
examples of this drama driving

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and the tension it creates between
authenticity and performance?

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Angèle Christin: So for
me, that's so interesting.

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Just taking a step back, when you think
about media production historically,

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uh, if you think of print, newspapers,
book writers, that kind of production,

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people didn't have any idea about
what their audience really wanted.

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So they didn't have metrics, they
didn't have data, and they certainly

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didn't have the kind of fine grain
granular data that creators have today.

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So now you have this kind of like
wave of metrics coming at you, and

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you have a very clear sense of what
people are really spending time on.

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And turns out when you're a creator and
when you look at these kind of granular

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metrics, one thing that you realize
very quickly is that viewers, listeners,

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followers, typically spend more time
engaged and are more likely to watch,

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and the content you create is more likely
to go viral, when there is some drama by

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which I kind of read, this term kind of
refers to interpersonal kind of conflict

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or inflammatory kind of back and forth or
kind of comments and response typically

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with other creators, that's gonna be great
for you because you can also bring in

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the audience of the other creator, right?

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So that kind of conflict, or somewhat
extreme content, again, depends on what

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kind of content you post, but if you push
a boundary of what you do, so for example,

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let's say you are a nutrition influencer
and you're gonna start proposing or

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offering like very extreme diets, right?

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That are really kind of out there
in terms of what you can consume.

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Typically, that's gonna come
with like more engagement, right?

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And higher metrics.

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So that's the incentives.

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Now the problem though is that perhaps
as a creators, you don't always

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want to follow these incentives.

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And so we go back to the first part
of your question, which is how do

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creators navigate this tension between,
on the one sense, on the one hand, the

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pressure to create contents that kind
of is more drama heavy or more extreme.

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And on the other hand, what
their audience originally really

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liked them for, which was their
relatability, their authenticity,

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their very unique editorial line.

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And so that kind of back and forth
between kind of drama and extreme

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content on the one hand, and
relatability and authenticity on

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the other, is something that every
single creator is struggling with.

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You can think about it as a
trade off between the short

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term and the long term, right?

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So in the short term, if you optimize
for kind of metrics and you really

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push drama, conflict, inflammatory,
and extreme content, you're gonna

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get spikes in the number of views and
the kind of virality of your content.

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But then perhaps in the long term or the
middle term, some of your loyal followers

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and subscribers are gonna be like, I don't
really recognize the person, the creator,

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the tones, the voice that I used to love.

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And so perhaps I'm not going to come back.

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And every single creator I talk to
over the past six years experiences

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some version of the tension.

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But at the end of the day, they
have to pay the bills, right?

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They have to pay the rent.

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And so many of them, whether they
want it or not, end up at some point

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prioritizing drama or extreme content.

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Matt Abrahams: So the algorithm and
the way in which creators get rewarded,

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financially and with followers, et
cetera, is to be more dramatic, even

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though in some cases can pull them away
from their authentic, original purpose.

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Let's take a step back from creators,
influencers, and let's just talk

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about professionals in general.

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I mean, having a social
media presence is important.

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It's how we define to the broader
world who we are, what we do.

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It could set us up for other positions,
can provide other opportunities to us.

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Do you have advice and guidance
on how everyday professionals can

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navigate the pressure to build a
credible online reputation while

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not falling victim to this drama?

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Angèle Christin: This is such an important
point, and actually this is where in

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my book I kind of end, which is that
really we are all content creators

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now, not only when doing a podcast, but
just even just as workers, as everyday

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human beings, we are just all putting
content out there and creating a public

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persona that then plays an increasingly
important role in hiring, promotions,

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and of course, getting laid off and
fired for things that may or may not have

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caught the attention of your employers.

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As the dynamics of social media creations
really come for the rest of us, what

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are some of the key aspects that,
you know, I think we can translate

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from influencers and content creators
to everyday social media users.

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I think the first one is that you
really have to build on your area

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of expertise, and that is something
that cannot be faked, you know?

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In order for your audience to trust
you, you have to come up with a kind

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of core competency, a core area, and
a specific kind of angle on this core

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area that is specifically yours, right?

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Now, it may seem easy, but as anyone
who's done kind of a bit of strategy or

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a bit of thinking, kinda reflectively
about what is my career of expertise,

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it's really not an easy process.

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And I think that for a lot of people as
a negotiate kinda social media presence,

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it's very much a back and forth, right?

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Between, I thought it was
this, but perhaps it's not.

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And kind of it's co-constructed
with the audience in many ways.

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So that's, I would say that's the first
thing, figuring out what's the area,

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what's the topic, what's the angles that
you feel comfortable and an expert on,

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and really pushing that on social media.

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My second take is again, that
when it comes to drama and extreme

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content, these are extremely
problematic things to engage in.

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When you look at content creators and
having spent six years talking with

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them and interviewing them, following
them, and kind of seeing how they

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work, they over time develop a very
thick skin for getting harassed,

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bullied, insulted on social media.

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An extremely painful
process for many of them.

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I will add, especially for any kind
of marginalized identity, you are just

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much more likely to get harassed online.

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It comes with a lot of distress,
a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear.

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And so I think that for people who may
not want to go on that specific emotional

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journey of developing that extremely
thick skin when it comes to kind of social

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media presence, my second recommendation
is always be aware that anything you

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post online is likely to be seen by your
coworkers, your employers, or future

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clients, customers, employers, et cetera.

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And just trying to keep that in
mind, especially when you are on

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your phone, perhaps late at night and
being like, oh, I'm gonna weigh in.

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I have an answer ready for this.

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And just thinking that social
media is not only that anymore.

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I mean, increasingly as we spend more and
more time online, this is basically your

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professional window and your professional
facade for potential employers.

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Matt Abrahams: I think that
last point is really important.

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How you show up on social media
is how people see you, and you

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have to manage that and navigate
through that very carefully.

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I like your suggestion to lean into your
expertise and to be forewarned that when

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you put your thoughts and self out there,
that there will be people who will comment

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on that, and that commenting can be
hurtful, painful, and upsetting at times.

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You have a unique perspective,
and you've mentioned this a couple

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times, on how you do your research.

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You have a unique perspective on
storytelling in that you conduct

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ethnographic research that results in
people telling you their stories, and then

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you in turn tell their stories to others.

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But you also look at how stories
help build an online presence

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in creators and influencers.

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So you're looking at storytelling
and using storytelling.

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So given your different perspectives on
it, I'm curious, do you have any guidance

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on what goes into crafting a good story?

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Angèle Christin: That
is such a good question.

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So it depends really on what
you mean by a good story, right?

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And what's the purpose of the story?

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And that's where I think I distinguish
between, in academia, you are using

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stories, but it's always stories
at the service of, in my case,

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I'm a sociologist by training, a
broader kind of argument about how

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the social world functions, right?

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And so in my research, I really take
these individual stories, I try to

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understand how people see the world, and
then I build on that to identify what are

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structural forces that shaped how this
specific constraints and difficulties

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that they encounter come into being.

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And so, you know, in the case of social
media influencers, for example, all

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social media creators see themselves
as fearless entrepreneurs, the rhetoric

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of entrepreneurship is very strong
for them, which makes a lot of sense.

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And often they come to social
media creation because they're

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dissatisfied with nine to five
jobs, to put it bluntly, right?

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So there's a strong dissatisfaction
with kind of modern corporate

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employment as a way of making a living.

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What's interesting though, and this
connects to the story thing, is that

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at the end of the day, yes, they're
entrepreneurs in one sense, but really

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they work for social media platforms.

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Social media platforms are the one
owning the means of distribution of

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their content and, and that's something
that a lot of creators can have a

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lot of trouble grappling with, right?

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And so in my case, I'm like, okay,
so let's take these individual

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stories and then connect that to the
broader patterns of who owns what.

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And who is truly making money from what?

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And when I think of how creators
themselves tell stories, I mean typically

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it's gonna be stories that inspire, right?

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And so that's a different purpose I
think, in what's the role of a story.

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And again, there like part of the
dynamic is creating connection

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with the audience, right?

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By providing some sense of vulnerability,
by sharing one's experience, by showing

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how you overcame difficulties, by
showing that you're relatable, that

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you're authentic, that you're putting
yourself out there, and then building

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on that experience to claim expertise,
a specific type of expertise that can

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be called confessional in a way, right?

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Where you build on your own difficulties,
your own kind of hard times to show

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how you overcame that and encourage
your followers to do the same thing.

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Matt Abrahams: Well, it seems to me
that from the academic sense, you're

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using stories as data that you can then
extrapolate patterns and connections.

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The stories that the people you
study are using are stories about

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connection, about being vulnerable.

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At the end of the day though, in both
cases, there's a purpose behind the story.

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The story serves a purpose.

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The story does serve to connect, in
some cases, academic ideas together,

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in other cases, audiences together.

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But you really need to understand
your audience and the purpose.

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And then you need to be able to take
that content and articulate it in

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a way that motivates the audience
you're speaking to and, uh, elucidates

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what it is you're looking for.

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Angèle Christin: I think a great way of
putting this would be to say that stories

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really are bridges, but the question is
like they're bridges from what to what.

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Matt Abrahams: Exactly right.

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So stories serve as bridges
to, to fulfill a purpose.

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I have always been fascinated
by ethnographic research.

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I've never done it myself.

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I've always been much more of a
traditionalist in the research I do, but

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I really like the richness the insight
that ethnographies bring, and I've

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always appreciated that line of research.

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If you were to give somebody
advice today who wanted to become

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a creator or wanted to enter into
this economy, what would you advise?

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What would be the things that you
would say you should consider and do?

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Angèle Christin: I would
say a couple of things.

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First, I would say that the reality
of social media labor is much harder

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than what some of the curated images
or curated accounts that leading

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social media celebrities provide.

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It's a hard job.

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It's a job where you are alone day after
day, shooting and reshooting content,

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where your employer or your primary
interlocutor is the algorithm of social

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media companies, and it's a hard boss to
please as many influencers can testify.

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It's changing all the time.

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The formats are changing all the time.

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The preferences of audiences
are changing all the time, so

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you have to be extremely nimble.

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With that in mind, what would
be my concrete recommendation?

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The first one is almost all creators have
one primary platform, but the ones who do

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better typically work across platforms,
and so trying to have different income

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streams so that you're not directly
weathered and only weathered to one

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platform that could go under or could
completely change its algorithms or its

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content moderation guidelines, I think
is a really important part of the game.

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So just spreading your kind of portfolio
and your content across different

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platforms, including newsletters, blog
posts, websites, just really trying to

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have as large a footprint as you can.

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So that would be my first thing.

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My second recommendation is that,
again, it's complicated to only be

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dependent on platform payments because
you are gonna be incentivized to

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engage in more drama or more extreme
content, so that's not great when it's

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the only way in which you make money.

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What works better in my
experience is again, people who

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have different revenue streams.

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So you do, yes, some platform payments,
but also some sponsored content where

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you work with brands and you are
transparent and selective in the brands

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you work out with so that it matches
the identity of your production.

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And again, you do that, but not too
much either because if you do too

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much sponsored content, then suddenly
you look like you are inauthentic

00:14:53.355 --> 00:14:54.555
and you are shilling for the brands.

00:14:55.074 --> 00:14:58.074
Matt Abrahams: This idea of expectation
setting for yourself and the

00:14:58.074 --> 00:15:00.235
expectations of the work that's required.

00:15:00.505 --> 00:15:02.995
Not a week goes by where people
don't come to me and say, hey,

00:15:02.995 --> 00:15:04.375
I'd love to start a podcast.

00:15:04.675 --> 00:15:05.635
What you do is so great.

00:15:05.635 --> 00:15:09.145
And then when I explain the amount of
work and the detail and the issues,

00:15:09.145 --> 00:15:11.935
people are like, ah, that sounds like
a lot more than I was signing up for.

00:15:12.175 --> 00:15:16.405
And this idea of diversity of ways that
you do your job and how you get paid.

00:15:16.405 --> 00:15:19.324
Because at the end of the day, for
many people, the creator economy is

00:15:19.345 --> 00:15:20.380
the way they get their work done.

00:15:22.035 --> 00:15:24.075
Well, this has been a
fantastic conversation.

00:15:24.075 --> 00:15:24.915
I appreciate it.

00:15:24.945 --> 00:15:27.345
Before I end, I like to ask
everybody three questions.

00:15:27.345 --> 00:15:30.165
One I make up just for you and the other
two I've been asking for a long time.

00:15:30.165 --> 00:15:30.765
Are you up for that?

00:15:30.825 --> 00:15:31.395
Angèle Christin: Yeah, for sure.

00:15:31.635 --> 00:15:32.265
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

00:15:32.595 --> 00:15:35.505
Beyond all the work you do that
we've discussed, you work for

00:15:35.505 --> 00:15:39.675
Stanford's Human-Centered AI
Institute, what is one thing going

00:15:39.675 --> 00:15:41.160
on there that has you really excited?

00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.670
Angèle Christin: Generative
AI is everywhere.

00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:45.110
There is a lot of hype.

00:15:45.380 --> 00:15:47.240
There is also a lot of fear.

00:15:47.660 --> 00:15:51.350
There are many emotions surrounding
generative AI and what it's

00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:53.030
gonna mean for all of us.

00:15:53.090 --> 00:15:54.770
In the coming years and decades.

00:15:55.070 --> 00:16:00.410
I am starting a new project on the
emotions surrounding generative AI.

00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:05.375
So hopes, fear, the hate, the
disappointment, all the emotions,

00:16:05.375 --> 00:16:11.375
positive, negative, that are shaping
how humans are interacting with AI.

00:16:11.735 --> 00:16:18.065
And Stanford's, HAI Institute has been
such an amazing place to really have these

00:16:18.065 --> 00:16:23.615
kind of in-depth discussions with computer
scientists, engineers, scientists,

00:16:23.825 --> 00:16:29.015
and policy experts in trying to tease
out what are some of the ramifications

00:16:29.255 --> 00:16:32.645
of these technological developments
that are happening as we speak.

00:16:32.935 --> 00:16:36.895
Matt Abrahams: There's so much talk about
the information that's part of these AI

00:16:36.895 --> 00:16:41.214
LLMs, not a lot have I heard about the
emotion piece, so I really look forward

00:16:41.214 --> 00:16:42.745
to that research that you're conducting.

00:16:43.165 --> 00:16:47.064
Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

00:16:47.305 --> 00:16:51.324
Angèle Christin: I think Greta Thunberg,
just because I think as a question

00:16:51.324 --> 00:16:56.275
of global warming and sustainability
is a really hard one to get for the

00:16:56.275 --> 00:17:00.505
news cycle and for the news media in
general, just because there is no big

00:17:00.505 --> 00:17:02.454
event except when there is a heat wave.

00:17:02.454 --> 00:17:07.405
But otherwise, it's just this long
kind of unfolding process that's

00:17:07.405 --> 00:17:09.385
happening over hundreds of years.

00:17:09.504 --> 00:17:12.085
So it's really hard to
muster attention for it.

00:17:12.325 --> 00:17:16.435
And I think that's exactly what Thunberg
has been doing in a variety of ways,

00:17:16.704 --> 00:17:22.464
but just really to crystallize our of
collective attention around how pressing

00:17:22.464 --> 00:17:23.905
the question of global warming is.

00:17:23.935 --> 00:17:26.425
And so that's something that
I find really impressive.

00:17:26.734 --> 00:17:28.834
Matt Abrahams: The ability to
keep constant attention on an

00:17:28.834 --> 00:17:31.834
important issue when there isn't
some big event, absolutely.

00:17:32.284 --> 00:17:33.064
Final question.

00:17:33.155 --> 00:17:37.864
What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

00:17:38.195 --> 00:17:39.034
Angèle Christin: Storytelling.

00:17:39.435 --> 00:17:40.635
Clear deliverables.

00:17:40.875 --> 00:17:45.254
And I will add, because at the end
of the day, I am an academic, rigor.

00:17:45.645 --> 00:17:50.655
Being careful and thorough in
how you link the different steps

00:17:50.655 --> 00:17:55.485
together and not overtaking or
making conclusions that really do not

00:17:55.485 --> 00:17:56.895
make sense given the data you have.

00:17:57.225 --> 00:17:59.175
Matt Abrahams: I wouldn't
expect nothing less from you,

00:17:59.175 --> 00:18:02.475
somebody who uses ethnography as
a means to do the work you do.

00:18:02.475 --> 00:18:06.135
So story, making sure that
story is rigorous and the

00:18:06.135 --> 00:18:07.665
deliverables are clearly defined.

00:18:08.205 --> 00:18:12.524
Well, thank you for the insight and
input you gave regarding creators.

00:18:12.524 --> 00:18:17.355
We are all creators in some way, shape,
or form, and the issues that you bring

00:18:17.355 --> 00:18:21.524
up are important for all of us to think
about in terms of how much we want

00:18:21.524 --> 00:18:26.534
to open ourselves up for the tension
between authenticity and the algorithms.

00:18:26.804 --> 00:18:28.814
Really provocative and really informative.

00:18:28.814 --> 00:18:29.264
Thank you.

00:18:29.415 --> 00:18:30.615
Angèle Christin: Thank
you so much for having me.

00:18:32.985 --> 00:18:34.755
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

00:18:34.755 --> 00:18:37.005
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:18:37.275 --> 00:18:40.155
To learn more about the impact
of social media, algorithms and

00:18:40.155 --> 00:18:45.335
AI on your communication, listen
to episode 225 with Adam Aleksic.

00:18:45.855 --> 00:18:50.705
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:18:50.915 --> 00:18:52.564
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

00:18:52.895 --> 00:18:54.995
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:18:55.264 --> 00:18:58.625
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