Matt Abrahams: We are all part of the creator economy.
We're all creators.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with an Angèle, Christin.
Angèle is an associate professor of communication and sociology at
Stanford University, along with being a senior fellow at Stanford's
Human-centered AI Institute.
Her work examines the social impact of algorithms and AI.
She's the author of several books with a new book coming out in fall of 2026.
Well, welcome Angèle.
I am thrilled to learn from you today.
Thanks for being here.
Angèle Christin: Thank you for inviting me.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
Shall we get started?
Angèle Christin: Yes, absolutely.
Matt Abrahams: Your research looks at how metrics drive creators
towards spectacle and drama.
Can you share some insights and examples of this drama driving
and the tension it creates between authenticity and performance?
Angèle Christin: So for me, that's so interesting.
Just taking a step back, when you think about media production historically,
uh, if you think of print, newspapers, book writers, that kind of production,
people didn't have any idea about what their audience really wanted.
So they didn't have metrics, they didn't have data, and they certainly
didn't have the kind of fine grain granular data that creators have today.
So now you have this kind of like wave of metrics coming at you, and
you have a very clear sense of what people are really spending time on.
And turns out when you're a creator and when you look at these kind of granular
metrics, one thing that you realize very quickly is that viewers, listeners,
followers, typically spend more time engaged and are more likely to watch,
and the content you create is more likely to go viral, when there is some drama by
which I kind of read, this term kind of refers to interpersonal kind of conflict
or inflammatory kind of back and forth or kind of comments and response typically
with other creators, that's gonna be great for you because you can also bring in
the audience of the other creator, right?
So that kind of conflict, or somewhat extreme content, again, depends on what
kind of content you post, but if you push a boundary of what you do, so for example,
let's say you are a nutrition influencer and you're gonna start proposing or
offering like very extreme diets, right?
That are really kind of out there in terms of what you can consume.
Typically, that's gonna come with like more engagement, right?
And higher metrics.
So that's the incentives.
Now the problem though is that perhaps as a creators, you don't always
want to follow these incentives.
And so we go back to the first part of your question, which is how do
creators navigate this tension between, on the one sense, on the one hand, the
pressure to create contents that kind of is more drama heavy or more extreme.
And on the other hand, what their audience originally really
liked them for, which was their relatability, their authenticity,
their very unique editorial line.
And so that kind of back and forth between kind of drama and extreme
content on the one hand, and relatability and authenticity on
the other, is something that every single creator is struggling with.
You can think about it as a trade off between the short
term and the long term, right?
So in the short term, if you optimize for kind of metrics and you really
push drama, conflict, inflammatory, and extreme content, you're gonna
get spikes in the number of views and the kind of virality of your content.
But then perhaps in the long term or the middle term, some of your loyal followers
and subscribers are gonna be like, I don't really recognize the person, the creator,
the tones, the voice that I used to love.
And so perhaps I'm not going to come back.
And every single creator I talk to over the past six years experiences
some version of the tension.
But at the end of the day, they have to pay the bills, right?
They have to pay the rent.
And so many of them, whether they want it or not, end up at some point
prioritizing drama or extreme content.
Matt Abrahams: So the algorithm and the way in which creators get rewarded,
financially and with followers, et cetera, is to be more dramatic, even
though in some cases can pull them away from their authentic, original purpose.
Let's take a step back from creators, influencers, and let's just talk
about professionals in general.
I mean, having a social media presence is important.
It's how we define to the broader world who we are, what we do.
It could set us up for other positions, can provide other opportunities to us.
Do you have advice and guidance on how everyday professionals can
navigate the pressure to build a credible online reputation while
not falling victim to this drama?
Angèle Christin: This is such an important point, and actually this is where in
my book I kind of end, which is that really we are all content creators
now, not only when doing a podcast, but just even just as workers, as everyday
human beings, we are just all putting content out there and creating a public
persona that then plays an increasingly important role in hiring, promotions,
and of course, getting laid off and fired for things that may or may not have
caught the attention of your employers.
As the dynamics of social media creations really come for the rest of us, what
are some of the key aspects that, you know, I think we can translate
from influencers and content creators to everyday social media users.
I think the first one is that you really have to build on your area
of expertise, and that is something that cannot be faked, you know?
In order for your audience to trust you, you have to come up with a kind
of core competency, a core area, and a specific kind of angle on this core
area that is specifically yours, right?
Now, it may seem easy, but as anyone who's done kind of a bit of strategy or
a bit of thinking, kinda reflectively about what is my career of expertise,
it's really not an easy process.
And I think that for a lot of people as a negotiate kinda social media presence,
it's very much a back and forth, right?
Between, I thought it was this, but perhaps it's not.
And kind of it's co-constructed with the audience in many ways.
So that's, I would say that's the first thing, figuring out what's the area,
what's the topic, what's the angles that you feel comfortable and an expert on,
and really pushing that on social media.
My second take is again, that when it comes to drama and extreme
content, these are extremely problematic things to engage in.
When you look at content creators and having spent six years talking with
them and interviewing them, following them, and kind of seeing how they
work, they over time develop a very thick skin for getting harassed,
bullied, insulted on social media.
An extremely painful process for many of them.
I will add, especially for any kind of marginalized identity, you are just
much more likely to get harassed online.
It comes with a lot of distress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear.
And so I think that for people who may not want to go on that specific emotional
journey of developing that extremely thick skin when it comes to kind of social
media presence, my second recommendation is always be aware that anything you
post online is likely to be seen by your coworkers, your employers, or future
clients, customers, employers, et cetera.
And just trying to keep that in mind, especially when you are on
your phone, perhaps late at night and being like, oh, I'm gonna weigh in.
I have an answer ready for this.
And just thinking that social media is not only that anymore.
I mean, increasingly as we spend more and more time online, this is basically your
professional window and your professional facade for potential employers.
Matt Abrahams: I think that last point is really important.
How you show up on social media is how people see you, and you
have to manage that and navigate through that very carefully.
I like your suggestion to lean into your expertise and to be forewarned that when
you put your thoughts and self out there, that there will be people who will comment
on that, and that commenting can be hurtful, painful, and upsetting at times.
You have a unique perspective, and you've mentioned this a couple
times, on how you do your research.
You have a unique perspective on storytelling in that you conduct
ethnographic research that results in people telling you their stories, and then
you in turn tell their stories to others.
But you also look at how stories help build an online presence
in creators and influencers.
So you're looking at storytelling and using storytelling.
So given your different perspectives on it, I'm curious, do you have any guidance
on what goes into crafting a good story?
Angèle Christin: That is such a good question.
So it depends really on what you mean by a good story, right?
And what's the purpose of the story?
And that's where I think I distinguish between, in academia, you are using
stories, but it's always stories at the service of, in my case,
I'm a sociologist by training, a broader kind of argument about how
the social world functions, right?
And so in my research, I really take these individual stories, I try to
understand how people see the world, and then I build on that to identify what are
structural forces that shaped how this specific constraints and difficulties
that they encounter come into being.
And so, you know, in the case of social media influencers, for example, all
social media creators see themselves as fearless entrepreneurs, the rhetoric
of entrepreneurship is very strong for them, which makes a lot of sense.
And often they come to social media creation because they're
dissatisfied with nine to five jobs, to put it bluntly, right?
So there's a strong dissatisfaction with kind of modern corporate
employment as a way of making a living.
What's interesting though, and this connects to the story thing, is that
at the end of the day, yes, they're entrepreneurs in one sense, but really
they work for social media platforms.
Social media platforms are the one owning the means of distribution of
their content and, and that's something that a lot of creators can have a
lot of trouble grappling with, right?
And so in my case, I'm like, okay, so let's take these individual
stories and then connect that to the broader patterns of who owns what.
And who is truly making money from what?
And when I think of how creators themselves tell stories, I mean typically
it's gonna be stories that inspire, right?
And so that's a different purpose I think, in what's the role of a story.
And again, there like part of the dynamic is creating connection
with the audience, right?
By providing some sense of vulnerability, by sharing one's experience, by showing
how you overcame difficulties, by showing that you're relatable, that
you're authentic, that you're putting yourself out there, and then building
on that experience to claim expertise, a specific type of expertise that can
be called confessional in a way, right?
Where you build on your own difficulties, your own kind of hard times to show
how you overcame that and encourage your followers to do the same thing.
Matt Abrahams: Well, it seems to me that from the academic sense, you're
using stories as data that you can then extrapolate patterns and connections.
The stories that the people you study are using are stories about
connection, about being vulnerable.
At the end of the day though, in both cases, there's a purpose behind the story.
The story serves a purpose.
The story does serve to connect, in some cases, academic ideas together,
in other cases, audiences together.
But you really need to understand your audience and the purpose.
And then you need to be able to take that content and articulate it in
a way that motivates the audience you're speaking to and, uh, elucidates
what it is you're looking for.
Angèle Christin: I think a great way of putting this would be to say that stories
really are bridges, but the question is like they're bridges from what to what.
Matt Abrahams: Exactly right.
So stories serve as bridges to, to fulfill a purpose.
I have always been fascinated by ethnographic research.
I've never done it myself.
I've always been much more of a traditionalist in the research I do, but
I really like the richness the insight that ethnographies bring, and I've
always appreciated that line of research.
If you were to give somebody advice today who wanted to become
a creator or wanted to enter into this economy, what would you advise?
What would be the things that you would say you should consider and do?
Angèle Christin: I would say a couple of things.
First, I would say that the reality of social media labor is much harder
than what some of the curated images or curated accounts that leading
social media celebrities provide.
It's a hard job.
It's a job where you are alone day after day, shooting and reshooting content,
where your employer or your primary interlocutor is the algorithm of social
media companies, and it's a hard boss to please as many influencers can testify.
It's changing all the time.
The formats are changing all the time.
The preferences of audiences are changing all the time, so
you have to be extremely nimble.
With that in mind, what would be my concrete recommendation?
The first one is almost all creators have one primary platform, but the ones who do
better typically work across platforms, and so trying to have different income
streams so that you're not directly weathered and only weathered to one
platform that could go under or could completely change its algorithms or its
content moderation guidelines, I think is a really important part of the game.
So just spreading your kind of portfolio and your content across different
platforms, including newsletters, blog posts, websites, just really trying to
have as large a footprint as you can.
So that would be my first thing.
My second recommendation is that, again, it's complicated to only be
dependent on platform payments because you are gonna be incentivized to
engage in more drama or more extreme content, so that's not great when it's
the only way in which you make money.
What works better in my experience is again, people who
have different revenue streams.
So you do, yes, some platform payments, but also some sponsored content where
you work with brands and you are transparent and selective in the brands
you work out with so that it matches the identity of your production.
And again, you do that, but not too much either because if you do too
much sponsored content, then suddenly you look like you are inauthentic
and you are shilling for the brands.
Matt Abrahams: This idea of expectation setting for yourself and the
expectations of the work that's required.
Not a week goes by where people don't come to me and say, hey,
I'd love to start a podcast.
What you do is so great.
And then when I explain the amount of work and the detail and the issues,
people are like, ah, that sounds like a lot more than I was signing up for.
And this idea of diversity of ways that you do your job and how you get paid.
Because at the end of the day, for many people, the creator economy is
the way they get their work done.
Well, this has been a fantastic conversation.
I appreciate it.
Before I end, I like to ask everybody three questions.
One I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking for a long time.
Are you up for that?
Angèle Christin: Yeah, for sure.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Beyond all the work you do that we've discussed, you work for
Stanford's Human-Centered AI Institute, what is one thing going
on there that has you really excited?
Angèle Christin: Generative AI is everywhere.
There is a lot of hype.
There is also a lot of fear.
There are many emotions surrounding generative AI and what it's
gonna mean for all of us.
In the coming years and decades.
I am starting a new project on the emotions surrounding generative AI.
So hopes, fear, the hate, the disappointment, all the emotions,
positive, negative, that are shaping how humans are interacting with AI.
And Stanford's, HAI Institute has been such an amazing place to really have these
kind of in-depth discussions with computer scientists, engineers, scientists,
and policy experts in trying to tease out what are some of the ramifications
of these technological developments that are happening as we speak.
Matt Abrahams: There's so much talk about the information that's part of these AI
LLMs, not a lot have I heard about the emotion piece, so I really look forward
to that research that you're conducting.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Angèle Christin: I think Greta Thunberg, just because I think as a question
of global warming and sustainability is a really hard one to get for the
news cycle and for the news media in general, just because there is no big
event except when there is a heat wave.
But otherwise, it's just this long kind of unfolding process that's
happening over hundreds of years.
So it's really hard to muster attention for it.
And I think that's exactly what Thunberg has been doing in a variety of ways,
but just really to crystallize our of collective attention around how pressing
the question of global warming is.
And so that's something that I find really impressive.
Matt Abrahams: The ability to keep constant attention on an
important issue when there isn't some big event, absolutely.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Angèle Christin: Storytelling.
Clear deliverables.
And I will add, because at the end of the day, I am an academic, rigor.
Being careful and thorough in how you link the different steps
together and not overtaking or making conclusions that really do not
make sense given the data you have.
Matt Abrahams: I wouldn't expect nothing less from you,
somebody who uses ethnography as a means to do the work you do.
So story, making sure that story is rigorous and the
deliverables are clearly defined.
Well, thank you for the insight and input you gave regarding creators.
We are all creators in some way, shape, or form, and the issues that you bring
up are important for all of us to think about in terms of how much we want
to open ourselves up for the tension between authenticity and the algorithms.
Really provocative and really informative.
Thank you.
Angèle Christin: Thank you so much for having me.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about the impact of social media, algorithms and
AI on your communication, listen to episode 225 with Adam Aleksic.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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