I'm Travis Bader and this is The
Silvercore Podcast.
Join me as I discuss matters related to
hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits
with the people in businesses that comprise
of the community.
If you're new to Silvercore, be sure to
check out our website, www.Silvercore.ca where
you you can learn more about courses, services,
and products we offer.
As well as how you can join The Silvercore Club,
which includes 10 million in North America, wide
liability insurance,to ensure you are properly
covered during your outdoor adventures.
This is a unique episode, as it could be listened
to you on both the Silvercore and EatWild
distribution networks.
I get the opportunity to recount some highlights
from this year's hunting season with my buddy
Dylan, and we provide our thoughts on firearm
and calibre selection for both new and
experienced hunters.
And we're live.
We're live.
Hey Travis.
Hey Dylan.
Okay, great to see you, man.
And I glad that you're coming and hanging
out here with me on the EatWild Podcast.
Now this is a bit of a unique podcast
because I'm introducing you to the concept
of the swap cast.
And this is where basically we're just
getting together for a conversation.
And as we get into this, we'll, we'll talk
a bit more about what Silvercore does and your
journey into podcasting.
Well school me on a swap cast.
What does that mean?.
Okay.
Okay, okay, okay.
So the podcast concept is something that was
introduced to me by the rookie hunters and
the journal of mountain hunting podcast.
And basically, it's just an opportunity where you
hang out with the host of another podcast, and
then you essentially share that podcast on
each other's platform.
And really it's an opportunity for me to
get introduced to your followers and people
who are listening to the Silvercore Podcast
and then flip it around and well, of course you
get to hang out with me and the vast listening
audience, I like to say, of the EatWild Podcast.
So either way we get to meet a few people and
still just have fun.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
Man that sounds great.
I mean, your audience, Silvercore audience,
there's going to be a lot of crossover
there anyways.
And if they haven't heard of the EatWild podcast
on Silvercore, then now they can go check it
out, and vice versa.
If the EatWild audience hasn't heard of
Silvercore, guess what?
We've got a podcast, check it out.
There you go.
Perfect.
Okay.
Love it.
So starting there.
Hey, so let's do the formal introduction.
Okay, everybody welcome to the EatWild podcast.
I'm sitting down with my friend, Travis from
Silvercore and Travis has been involved in the
training industry for a while for some time
now and focused on, you know, firearms, training,
hunting training, and he's taken that business
into a whole bunch of cool directions.
Lately he's been playing around with
developing the Silvercore podcast and without
further ado, welcome.
Welcome Travis.
Welcome to the EatWild podcast and the
swap cast with the Silvercore podcast.
Welcome.
Hey, I'm looking forward to it.
We always have fun when we do these things.
Yeah, we did this gosh a while back and it was
actually one of my, the more popular podcasts
that we talked about.
We kind of got into firearms and firearms
maintenance and.
That's right.
Had a lot of feedback.
That was probably the one podcast that generated
the most people kind of reaching out and saying,
Hey, I actually learned something in your podcast
and really appreciated the knowledge.
So yeah, that one carried us.
Yeah.
That was my very first podcast.
And you know, I never really listened to
podcasts prior to, I was one live podcast
I went to, I just.
Don't seem to have the time to listen unless
I'm driving and I've situated my work.
And everything's so close to my home
that, I just didn't know much about them.
You introduced me to the podcast world, Dylan.
And here you are, now you're like, now
you've trying to find time just to have that
next conversation.
And by the sounds of it, you're a little
bit hooked on doing it.
You're having some fun.
So tell me a little bit about the Silvercore
podcast and what's it about and, yeah, where
are you heading with it?
Oh, it's great fun.
You know, it was a, not having listened
to podcasts really before, it was a
complete new experience.
Like, what am I supposed to do?
What do I talk about?
Right.
And what are people actually going to be
listening to this?
And after doing the podcast with you, got
you know, kind of an idea of the format and what
people are looking for.
And I took my office here in Tilbury and decided,
I know let's move the entire office staff
outta here, got another location in Ladner
and turned the Tilbury location into a studio.
So we've got, I've picked up some video cameras
for some of the online stuff that we do and my
office, I don't know.
It's hard to see from this, we're using an
online service here, but I've gone and
soundproofed it and set it up as a podcast
room and just slowly plugging away, having
a lot of fun with it.
And really I'm, the reason why I'm doing
it is because it's fun.
It's a positive outlet and it's a
chance to share with others, my passion.
And it seems to be well-received so.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's been fun.
And I think more than anything this time
of year, this year in particular, just with
trying to stay connected, a lot of us are using
these video platforms just to see our families
and friends and, you know, have a virtual
beer with your crew.
So really this is just a way of connecting
with and that's what actually this series of
podcasts, isn't why I called you up as I was
like, well it's the tail end of hunting season.
You know, I'm gonna call up my buddies and
talk about hunting and how the season was.
So why not do that, and get my act together,
record it and call it a podcast series.
So this is like the catching up with my
hunting partners or hunting buddies series,
and then hopefully tackle one question
for each episode.
So we're going to get caught up a little bit.
And then I think the topic, one of the
questions that I get and, you no doubt get
this as well as a hunting educator and as someone
who certifies people for firearms and firearm
safety is like, what firearms should I buy?
If I was going to buy one firearm, what
firearm should I buy?
And you know, that conversation, I find I've
been through it a number of times, but I thought,
Hey, if we record it on a podcast, then next
time someone asks you that question, which will
probably be tomorrow.
You can be like, Hey, you can listen
to my podcast about which gun you should
buy as a new hunter.
Ahh, look at you.
So really we're winning at all fronts
here, you know.
Look at you.
I like it.
So hunting, I saw you, you and Rob actually.
So you guys pulled yourself a pretty nice
Muley there just on the weekend didn't ya?
That's a black tail.
That was a that's my first black tail.
Oh you got a black tail, not, very nice.
Yeah.
Rob took me to one of his secret spots
and I've been kind of hacking around.
I'm not, typically I'm kind of done hunting
by this time of year.
I usually wrap up my hunting season
around November, well, November 15.
So that's the end of my white tail hunt,
and usually I've got a white tail and hopefully
I've got a mule deer earlier in the season
and I'm feeling pretty set for the year.
But I didn't get a white tail this year and I
also couldn't go back out for a white tail,
because there was the provincial regulations
around not traveling here in British Columbia.
And so I sort of committed to spending
some time locally and exploring the black tail
hunting opportunities.
And I kinda was dabbling in it earlier this month.
I got out for a couple of weekends to a spot
that a friend of mine, an old timer friend of
mine has been trying to put me on for a while
and kind of got a bit of a taste for it.
Like just found a few black tails.
I was like, Oh, they like this really steep,
challenging, ugly, hard to climb through forest.
Okay, I think I know where they live now.
And so I was kind of excited to dedicate
some more time to it.
So that was.
So you didn't get yourself, your white
tail this year, eh?
Cause that's sort of your thing.
No.
You're known for that.
I just, Oh man, I was feeling like really in
the dumps about it too.
Like I, and not because I didn't
kill a deer, that's actually not at all.
I mean, I had, it's the change in ecosystems
that I like to hunt.
Like the place that I like to hunt, there's
been a lot of forestry activity in the area
and it just reducing the amount of winter range
available for the deer, elk, white tail and
mule deer in the area.
So every year I go back, that's just like
one less place that I used to hunt for like
my whole life is gone.
Like it's just newt and I was like,
Oh, well, great.
And so it's just kind of heartbreaking when
you're like, wow, there's a reason.
Like when I was a kid, we used to see, I
used to be a good day was I see 20 deer and
four or five bucks.
And I saw three bucks this year, which
was, last year I only saw one buck in
10 days of hunting.
This year I actually had three opportunities
at deer and it just didn't work out this
year, but I figure three opportunities is
still pretty good for a six or seven day hunt
Yeah you hunted hard last year.
Yeah, last year was brutal.
Like last year was the same thing.
So it was sort of feeling like, I knew
this was coming.
I knew there was going to be a year that I,
you know, this is the first year since I was 12
years old that I didn't kill a white tail deer.
And so that was a good run, but had
to come to an end.
Well, there you go.
So I took it out on some poor black tail.
Nice.
Yeah so, I was eager to get back out there.
And I found a new spot and it's a nice
timber and yeah, I had a great hunt.
Beauty.
Learned something new.
Beauty.
Which I like the best, found a new spot.
So I'm pumped and I might be hooked on black
tail hunting cause it's so God damn hard so.
You love the challenge do ya?
Well, like I like find in places hey.
Like just finding places it's like, you gotta
put on a lot of miles, you got to figure things
out, you puzzle it out.
And then yeah, if you can find a spot then it's
cool when it works out.
Yeah, I think you nailed it.
It's a lot of work to get there.
You nailed it.
It's like a puzzle.
You start putting everything together
and relying on what you know, and it's
a learning process as well through it.
It's a, that is a fun part.
Oh, I love it.
Okay so this is what we're doing.
We're talkin hunting and we're getting caught up.
So what was the highlight of your
hunting season this year?
Oh, highlight that definitely be, well,
my son got his first deer, 11 years old.
So last year, 10 years old, all he wanted for
his birthday was to get his hunting license.
He wanted to get his FWID, fish and
wildlife ID is what we call it in BC.
And so he studied and studied and studied and
finally on his birthday, went in, took him to
another instructor, had him go through, he
aced it, super happy.
And went out, did some hunting, but he wasn't
doing any harvesting in his first year.
And so this year we go out and actually there
was, for waterfowl heritage days.
So out in BC we've got our heritage days, which
Junior hunters, youth hunters can get out a
little bit early before everybody else learn
what it's all about.
And so from one of our local gun stores in
Ladner, Stillwater Sports is a guy there by the
name of Jens Cuthbert.
And he's got an Instagram account if you're into
waterfowl hunting, it's 604 Backwoods
and he lives and breathes and sleeps,
this is what he does is waterfowl hunting.
He says, Trav, tell you what, if your son's
interested, waterfowl heritage stadays,
days come on out.
So, took him out and he used to do guiding in
the States for waterfowl and we actually did a
Silvercore Podcast where he talks about how new
people can get into it in the lower mainland and
find their spots and all the ins and outs there.
So any of these went out and my son got his
first Mallard and was stoked because he said,
you know, I didn't know if I'd be able
to, I didn't know what it'd be like right.
Having to harvest an animal.
So a week later we're out and he's got himself a, a
draw for a mule deer doe.
We head on out and drive out of Delta and we see
in burns bog, a deer.
We're like, Oh hey, good sign, this
is looking good.
And then we get out to our location and
we don't see anything, we're not seeing anything
on the road there.
Yeah.
20 minutes from the house, there's a deer.
Then you get out, drive for five hours.
That's right.
And so we get out there and putting the time in.
And so anyways, one morning, just miserable
out and we're out there bright and early
and figure we're in a pretty good location
and he's getting cold.
And I got to remember 11 years old, you gotta
keep it fun too right?
You can't just be, you can't just
be, going hard.
So we get back into the vehicle and we're
warming up and I say, tell you what, there's
another area around the corner, scouted,
it looked promising.
Let's just go for a real quiet walk right?
We'll get out into this area, we'll check it out.
So we do and we're about to add about 20
minutes into our walk and I'm looking up on the
hillside and there we go.
There's his doe that he's got to draw for,
but I'm looking, it's kind of far and he's
been practicing at the range and I'm thinking,
you know, I want to close that distance.
Well, let's see what we can do.
So I don't tell him and we're just still
doing the quiet walk and getting
closer and closer.
And the deer's just standing there and I'm
like, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be.
We finally get into a position where it
felt, okay, we've closed enough distance.
It's a perfect broadside shot.
And I looked back to my son, I said, okay.
And he's got some electronic
hearing protection.
I said, okay, ears.
Ears are on.
I said, okay, load your firearm, you look
up on the hill there, there's a deer and
he's loaded it on up.
And he gets on up and I said, maybe get into
a kneeling position.
Oh, right okay.
So he gets down and gets to do a little bit more
stable platform and I said, okay safety?
Oh, right, yeah safety.
Here we go.
And I mean, everything's going through the head
and I thought, well, now it's up to him right.
And if he pulls the trigger, fair enough.
If he doesn't fair enough, I mean, it's
up to him right.
And he did, and he made the shot and I think
we watched, sat there, waited for about half
an hour, 45 minutes and said, okay, let's
get on out there.
And let's do some tracking.
Got in and man, he was just ecstatic.
And so I got to say that that was the highlight
of the hunting trip.
We've cooking up some backstraps over the
campfire at night and recounting the story
and coming back and making some burgers.
And I mean, he was just in heaven and
my wife was there and she's a chef by trade.
And so helping them out and identifying and
doing all the butchering.
And so this is all a part of his schooling process,
as well as the hunting and the butchering and
the cooking, because due to COVID, one's
in high school and the other one we thought,
well, we'll homeschool.
He can, he's doing his ground school for pilot
training and hunting and all the things
that a boy wants to do and why not right?
Yeah, right on.
So that, that had to be a highlight for me.
How bout you?
Yeah.
Oh, well, that's, I was just thinking about how
cool it would be to be 11 years old and dad's
like, you know what?
You're out of school, you're going to hunt
a lot this summer and this fall.
Cause, that would be my dream of
school as a kid so.
And you know what, it's what he wants.
Actually we're talking about it today cause he
and I went out on real quick hunt here just
in the lower mainland for some waterfowl
and he says, you know, when I get older, do
you think my kids will want to hunt with me?
I said, well, you'd be pretty lucky if they do.
I said, if they're not into hunting, he says,
well, what if they're, what if they're totally
not into hunting?
What if they're, what if they're vegans?
And I said, if they're vegans, you know,
as long as you guys are respectful of
each other, I'm sure it'll be just fine.
But you'll be very lucky if they share
some of the same hobbies and passions as you.
And there's lots of cool forging.
You can do out there.
That's it!
You can go get mushrooms.
Totally.
And cool wild plants and berries.
And you can.
That's it!
You can bring your gun and, you know, you
could shoot a grouse and your kids can pick
berries and mushrooms, you know, it's all good.
Yeah.
Figure it out.
It'll all be good.
Yeah.
No for sure.
Well, I totally, I shared a little bit of that same
experience this year out, my friend, Mickey, who
I spent a lot of time with and she had wants to
be a hunter and she did dedicate a lot of time
to becoming a hunter.
And so I was on riding shotgun for her first
hunt and very similar to your story, but I won't
tell it cause I've got her lined up to tell
her story with one of our, another one of our
friends who's also a very successful huntress.
So got to leave that story for them to tell.
Oh very cool.
And not gonna step on her story, but man, I tell
you, like there's nothing better than being there
for somebody else's first time, or any hunt really
just being along with.
Oh it's fantastic!
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
It's the whole process, that's what I enjoy,
is being out there, being in the woods,
connecting with nature and just the process of
sort of disconnecting from the day-to-day,
the technology, the cell phones, computers,
and all the rest and just kind of getting
back to the basics.
And whether I'm successful on a hunt
or not, it really doesn't matter to me.
You know, I go hunting with some people and
they gotta be successful and that's the whole
hunts around that.
And if they're not successful, it kind of
makes for a negative hunt or kind of a
crummy experience right.
And so I've hopefully instilling the same sort
of values in my children.
And it seems to be sticking anyways.
Yeah, that's cool.
I totally know what you, I fight off that
sentiment of needing to have success on a hunt.
Like I'm conscious of it constantly.
Like how much, obviously I'm a bit of a driver
when it comes to hunting, given the amount.
Right.
I hunt and how passionate about I am, but I.
Yeah.
My friends have commented lately.
They're like Dylan, like, this is great.
Like, you're really like, you're really
chilling out.
Like it's kind of a conscious decision, I
finally realized now, you can control a lot
of things when you hunt.
I mean, it's all about effort and time spent,
but I really come to a point now where I
recognize that I have enough confidence in
my approach to hunting than if I just apply
my approach and give myself enough time that
it's going to work out.
If it's gonna work out, it's going to work out.
That's it!
I don't like, that's it like exactly so I
don't need to have.
And really what can you really control?
And you say you can control a lot of things.
You can plan for a lot of things, you can put
different things in place, but the actual
control factor, I mean, if you want to get
real esoteric would at Viktor Frankl say he's
about control, the one thing, essentially,
the only thing you can control is yourself.
And he was that guy in the concentration
camp right, who had all his, everything
taken from, and he was watching people and
some were just beside themselves and just
completely overwhelmed.
And some people are finding happiness
despite all of the adversity they're facing.
And he says, the one thing you can't take
from me is the way I choose to respond to
what you do to me.
The last life's great freedoms is one's
ability to control their own attitude in
any given circumstance.
So really if, when I look at it, I kind of
boil it down to that.
If I'm out there and I'm having fun, great.
I can put all the pieces in place and it can
all go sideways right.
But I can control that, whether I
choose to be having fun with that or not.
Totally.
No.
And that's something I'm learning that as
I get older and well, I've known it forever.
It just, as you get older, you apply,
it's a life lesson.
You just have to apply it and apply
it and apply it.
And then when you see that, when you see that
competitive nature or that, that person inside
you coming out, you're like, oh hey, you know
what, I know better.
I know that I'm going to enjoy this more if
I just like, let that go and allow myself
to enjoy the moment and the place and the people
around me and not get caught up in outcomes
because that just leads to problems in the end.
And for me anyways.
I think so, you know, but you know,
everyone's different.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, totally well, I'm having a
lot of fun these days hunting and still having
success even despite, you know, not being as,
as caught up in outcome so yeah, it's all great.
So it all worked out this year and it
had a great, yeah.
Great last, had a great season.
So I can't complaint, but.
That's fantastic.
It's cool I was, I was riding shotgun too for,
no I wasn't quite ridding shotgun, I was at a
good friend, Ryan, he brought his son to white
tail camp, who was 10.
And Wyatt is like, oh he's just, I just love
this kid, he's just so, he's such a hunter.
And he's, his dad's a really good hunter
too, which is cool.
Like they've been hunting mule deer together
in the south Okanagan sneaking around and
they've killed a few deer together, like sneaking
around dad's shot, you know, nice deer.
And this year, the plan was to get
Wyatt his first deer.
He's 10 years old and he's legal, ready to go.
And the plan was to try and get him
his first buck.
And they ended up sneaking up on a
white tail buck laying in it's bed.
And they got into.
Wow.
80 yards and Wyatt shot it.
Wow!
So I've got to say like, that's pretty
good hunting, man.
If you could sneak up on a white tail.
No kidding!
Especially two of ya.
I was pretty impressed.
So yeah, the little guy was so chuffed.
Oh, wow.
Stars are lining up on that one.
They're doing their job right.
Well, you know what, Ryan is such a good hunter.
He kind of had all figured out, how he
was going to do it.
And he made it happen and picked kind of a
spot that's conducive to making it happen.
And, but the best part was, is like that little
kid that he was like, so they shot the deer pretty
early in the morning and they got it back to camp.
And so like I'm sure he was just couldn't
wait for the rest of the hunting camp
to come back at like noon, like to be like.
Oh, so proud.
Yeah, so proud.
It was so awesome.
Came back and yeah, it was like, yeah, that
was the most fun it's I've had this hunting
season, so pretty cool.
But hey.
Okay, cool.
Hey, so we didn't do a great job of talking
about what your podcast's about and what you're up
to with your podcast so.
We really didn't.
You know, you've got the EatWild podcast and right
there in the title, it says eat wild, I mean,
there's a descriptor of what the podcast
is going to be about.
So I've got the Silvercore Podcast and
of course, Silvercore is my business and I named
it after my grandfather Silver Armano and my
other grandfather, Cornelius Bader.
Silver and Core.
Oh cool.
Yeah.
Oh cool, I didn't know that.
One was a Vancouver police detective,
the other one was a entrepreneur,
ran a large bakery.
He would say that they were bigger than dad's
oatmeal cookies, that they made cookies.
But they owned a city block or so in and around
commercial drive by the Croatian Cultural Centre
is now, with bakeries.
So I thought, well, you know, I'm into
the firearms thing and that's kinda
like one grandfather, and then I've got
the entrepreneurial spirit, it's like the
other one, I'll just combine them together.
So there isn't a heck of a lot of descriptor
for what it is we do and the podcast, while
we talk about hunting, firearms, fishing,
foraging, outdoor related activities, really it's
an outlet for me just to bring positivity
into the community.
I don't do it for any remuneration, and it's
got the Silvercore name so whatever publicity
that can bring on in for the company,
hey, that's great.
But aside from that, I try to find interesting
people and talk about things that are going
to be, typically I stay away from the politics
and stay away from uber contentious issues
that are going to be divisive because it is a
positive outlet for me.
Like I had a Guy Cramer in and he invented
the invisible cloak, and it sounds funny
until he brings it in and shows it to you.
And it's an array of lenticular lenses with
a special fluid in between and it refracts
light in such a way that you can get behind it
and you disappear, but the background doesn't
and so we talked about that cause it's got
some crossover in the camouflage world right.
Yeah.
We had Colin Dowler and I actually, I
flew into his location and spoke with him.
And he was in an encounter with a grizzly
bear and fought it off with his pocket knife,
while he was in the Grizzlies mouth being
mauled and I mean, the guy almost died.
Then he had to get on his bicycle and bike about
7K back with his one good leg bleeding everywhere
and so, it really doesn't have a pinpoint direction
for the podcast.
But if you're interested in hunting, if you're
interested in fishing and foraging and outdoor
related activities, we try to have the podcast
navigate around those topics but it really is a
sort of a positive outlet for people to hopefully
learn and listen and enjoy something new.
Yeah, right on.
And I think it's so important I mean, and
you know, I definitely wouldn't, keep it, I
listened a bit too to your podcast for sure and
I see, I keep track of ya and I see what you're,
you know, I think that bringing that positive
lens to like, you know, I'm really trying to
bring that positive lens of the hunting.
Yeah.
That's what EatWild's been about the whole
time and I see you doing that, really for the
firearms education world.
And like you're telling positive stories as
one of the leaders in firearms education
here in Canada.
And I think it's great to have your voice at
the front of that talking about not just firearms,
but you know, the spectrum of things that
are part of a way of life that include firearms.
And I kind of liked that, I think it's important
and I think we need more of that because I think
a lot of people who are perceived as the voice
of the firearms advocacy world that are doing a
good job of communicating with the broader society.
And I applaud you for doing that and
taking these steps.
I think you're doing a good job of it so.
Oh, thanks, Dylan.
Appreciate that.
And it's hard work.
It's a hard place to sit because you end
up, there's still controversy when it comes
to people's perception of firearms and such.
And that's it.
There is a perception and it's an
emotionally charged topic for summers.
I see for anybody who's been negatively
affected by a firearm, far be it for me to try
and change their mind.
But I can speak to the things that I
know and the things that are positive.
And if other people can take some level
of positivity away from that, great.
Cool.
Well, that lends itself right to our topic here.
Okay.
Talking about.
Yeah.
So the reason why I thought, I mean, other
than just wanting to say hello and catching
up and sharing a couple of hunting stories.
I did want to talk about, like I said at
the introduction, this is one of the most common
questions that I get as a hunting instructor,
which is, you know, what firearms should
I buy as a new hunter?
And I thought of you, because I know you, I
believe in addition to doing all the things
you've talked about, you're also a gunsmith
and you've been training people around firearms
for a long time so I figured you're the right
guy to ask this question.
So, okay, so the first question is if,
what should the first firearm that a new
hunter should buy?
The very first firearm?
And now this is going to be for a hunter and not
just a sports shooter, we're saying, right?
No.
Yeah, we're taking it.
We're going through the lens of somebody
who's on the trajectory that wants to become a,
you know, an ethical, safe, successful hunter.
So there's a, now you do realize that these
are wormhole questions that we're going into.
And the reason why people ask it is because
everyone's got an opinion and the best
thing that I think you and I can do right now
is share our experience with the listeners so
that they can make the best educated decision
that works for them.
Because what's going to be the first firearm
for me, or for my family members, or
for you, might not be the best for them.
There's a lot of talk of, oh hey, you should
start out with a 22, and I don't disagree
with that because it gets you familiar
with firearms safety.
It gets you familiar with something that's knocking
to break the bank, it's not going to recoil a
hole, you're not going to have pain from recoil.
The most offensive thing for the 22, for the
shooter standpoint ,is going to be the noise.
And it's really not that loud compared to most
of these firearms right.
And that logic is sound if somebody wants to just
start out and learn how to use that firearm, and
maybe they want to do some small game hunting.
But there are principles that you learn on a 22
that some would argue would have to relearn on
a firearm that's going to be inducing recoil.
Sure.
And so some people, some proponents would say, get
something that's going to do what you need it
to do for the larger game first and go into it.
With firearms, for some people anyways, they
can be a gateway to more firearms right?
The collection gets bigger and
bigger and bigger.
And it's because there is no perfect calibre
or no perfect gun.
But if someone.
Okay, but for the purpose of this conversation,
we're going to assume that we're talking
to somebody who lives in a condo in
downtown Vancouver.
Okay.
That is going to struggle to find this place
even to put this gun, or two guns we'll say,
not, I think that you know, I think the end
result of where these folks want to get to
is the least amount of investment in firearms
for the maximum amount of practical application.
And that seems to me the core of the discussion
that I get from people.
Right.
And the other thing is, I think people
want to, I mean as much as I'd like to talk
about calibres and the virtues of the different
calibres and what their performances are
ballistic qualities are.
I think at the end of the day, that I think it's
helpful for a number of people just to be told
what to do from an expert with sound concept.
So, 'get this gun, full go'?
Well, yeah, let's try and say that.
So it's three guns.
It's our end result.
It's three guns that they're looking for.
They're looking for a 22, they're looking
for a shotgun and they're looking for a
centerfire rifle and then you've kind of got the
gamut for everything.
The shotgun allows you to not have to drive too
far in order to learn from other people how
to use that firearm, if you're in the lower
mainland area anyways.
I mean, the we've got the Vancouver Gun Club,
which is in Richmond, but it's called the
Vancouver Gun Club and you can take your shotgun
out there, ammo doesn't cost a bunch of money.
You can shoot around the sporting clays, you can
learn from other people.
And it's sort of like a quick round
of golf, essentially.
He going through the backwoods there, clay
birds fly up in the air, or they got the
little rabbits that run along that ,a different
type of clay that will run along the ground.
And you get to learn how to use that shotgun.
And if you want it to get into waterfowl hunting
well, I mean, it's pretty close, we've got a lot
of areas right here.
We've got that podcast through Silvercore,
here we go, shameless plug, but where Dennis
Zentner and Jens Cuthbert go through and talk
people through how to get into waterfowl
hunting if they're the Vancouver urbanite.
So that would be one.
The 22 is great because ammo is cheap.
The 22 isn't going to break the bank and you
can learn about firearms usage, you can practice
your firearm safety and you can start taking it
out to do target practice or small game hunting.
And so the 22 is a great resource there.
And then finally, they're going to be looking
for a centerfire rifle.
Well, okay.
Before we go onto the centerfire, let's
talk about, well, there's two things you
brought up, which I really thought well,
that are interesting.
So we'll come back to the 22, but I do like
that the one thing about a shotgun and like the,
and I haven't done a great job with this as
a hunting instructor, or even as EatWild, who has
lived so close to well, who has been advocating
for accessible hunts.
Like duck hunting and goose hunting is probably
the most accessible hunt.
And we, you know, we have an overpopulation
of geese here arguably, throughout
lower mainland.
And if you can find a way to gain access to
a piece of property where geese live and
hunt there legally, it's an awesome resource.
So it's not a bad way to say, like, you know,
if you want to hunt and you want to get some
confidence and learn about shooting and then
yeah going the shotgun route and hunting,
you know, waterfowl or migratory game
birds is a great idea.
Sure.
And the other piece that I really liked
what you said there, and I hadn't thought
about it, but like the accessibility and how
much fun it is to go to shoot skeet and to go to
a like a shotgun range and shoot clay birds,
basically flying disks.
And then just the tremendous support and
mentorship that's at those types of clubs.
Cause it really is like, it's really fun, like
it's a really supportive fun environment.
It's totally fun.
If you go there with the attitude to learn
and without a chip on your shoulder, which
basically everyone does when they go to these
places, people flock to you because they want
to help you and share what they know with you.
And sometimes it might get a little overwhelming
and you say, okay, okay, hold on, I got to put
things together on my own a little bit here, but.
Yeah.
There's no shortage of people who
want to help you.
Yeah, no, I've experienced that.
I've had a lot of fun at, you know, just
getting to know some of the older generation
that are passionate about shooting.
And I think it's, you know, honestly, they
probably recognize it as probably something that
needs a bit of new blood to be entered into these
clubs and to use these facilities, otherwise
they're just not going to exist much longer.
So I think they, you know, they embrace new
people coming around and it's absolutely a hoot.
And I like how you liken it to a round a golf
cause it's, you know, I think for 15 bucks,
you buy a box of shells and you buy two boxes
of shells and you can go goof around for a
couple hours and shoot a few rounds of skeet
or rounds of birds.
And it's, clay birds I should say
and boy is it fun.
So yeah, I think that's.
Totally.
A cool, cool thing to do.
And it hasn't really been something that
I've done a lot of and, but it's something that
I think that, yeah I should be talking about
that more and I'm glad you brought it up.
So that's one option, get out there with
your shotgun, learn to shoot skeet, tons
of lessons there, transitioned to birds.
You'll fill your freezer.
Totally.
And that's an obsession as well.
I mean, we did a podcast with three new hunters
that just got into it little by little, and
then they got the boat and then they're getting
further and further.
Actually they ended up finding a body
in the marsh, and so that was what the
podcast was about.
Woah.
That was an interesting one.
And ended up getting the hovercraft
and RCMP in there.
Oh, dear.
Yeah.
So that was, and I see, actually MeatEater
just ran something about that, a week
ago I think it was.
Just what to do if you're in the woods and you
find something like that.
I can't say I know too many people that
happens too, but I know those three people.
Anyways, that one took a bit of a turn.
Wow, that's terrible.
Yeah, for sure, that wasn't where it was
expected to go but.
Right.
So the one gun, I don't know who says it, beware
the man with one gun, he knows how to use it
or beware the person with one gun, they
know how to use it.
Right.
Well, let's go back to 22 because I think that's
an important conversation that I want to reinforce,
just the value of a 22 and that you mentioned
it's cheap to shoot, and that's one thing I
like about the 22, it's also, it's not loud.
It's not, like you can take a 22 and go out
to a logging / legal shooting area and you
can set up some targets and you can just have
some good, fun shooting recreation in a safe way.
And it's not super loud, so you're not going
to be like blowing out the entire valley if
people are camped down below you or nearby.
Which is the reality of shooting high powered
firearms is that it can really affect the
whole experience for other people, not in
an appropriate range or, you know, well back
and away from other recreating people.
But definitely spent some time in the Chilliwack
valley for both my work and poked around there
looking for places to actually shoot.
Right.
It's really like, it's pretty intense what's
happening, in terms of the shooting culture
that's happening there and pretty intense.
So I would encourage people to definitely
like get a 22 cause then you can take it
with you when you go camping in the summer
and drive out of town.
And maybe part of your recreational plan is
to set aside a couple of hours of practice
your markspersonship and shoot a bunch.
And have some fun with it and hopefully not have
an impact on other people as you're shooting right.
When you say it's intense, are you
talking about Yahoo's?
Oh God, like I've never, and I don't even
think it's, I'm pretty good about it, cause
I'll talk to people.
I'll be like, hey how's it going?
And you know, but it's intense because there's a
lot of activity going on, there's a lot of people.
Okay.
Who are set up shooting, four by fouring.
You know, God knows what they're out to.
It's like and of course, like I'm a
park ranger, right?
Like, I can't help it.
Like, you know, I look at everybody through
like, hmm are they a camper, I don't know,
I might have to write these guys a ticket.
Like, are they going to have an illegal fire?
I can't help it right.
Uh huh.
So I sort of, what are you up and down as to
whether or not they're going to be, you know,
yeah, a good park user but, obviously
they're perfectly in their legal right
to set up and shoot, provided they're doing
it safely and there's nothing wrong with that.
I just, the intensity of it, it's the amount of
what's going on makes it, you know, like, wow okay,
this is, lots going on.
Do it safely, clean up after yourself, be
courteous of others.
Basic you know, things that your mother should
have taught you, and it goes a long way
to ensuring that you still have places in
the future to use those firearms and practice
with them or hunt.
So it's a, you do see yahoo's once in a while
and I think that's sort of the scary side of it.
But more and more, I'm seeing cleanup groups
go out and clean up the outdoors where others may
have left, they bring out fridges and microwaves
and different things they want to shoot and leave.
Apparently if you shoot it enough, lika
a microwave or a fridge enough times, it'll
eventually biodegrade.
That seems to be the policy for some people
out there and it's just like, really?!
Well that mattress, if you shoot it with
enough shotgun BB's it'll just disappear.
Okay, I see what you're trying to do here, but
it's not working pal.
Yeah.
Nope.
No, no, it's so disheartening to see that
the mess left behind, but you know, a lot of people
are out there cleaning up and the Backcountry
Hunters and Anglers here, region two team.
I mean, they've done a number of cleanups just
trying to, you know, try to reduce the impact of
some of the areas that have been a little bit
overwhelmed with the litter left behind by
that type of user, but.
Right.
Like you said, you know, be responsible,
be respectful, clean up after yourself and
we can all continue to enjoy these places
and take advantage of the opportunity
to shoot because.
And I have a feeling the people listening to this
podcast are all in that group, otherwise, they
probably wouldn't find too much of interest
in these podcasts.
It's all we can to talk about, right?
Yeah.
Preaching to the converted right?
Exactly.
Yeah, totally.
Okay that's cool.
Okay, let's go to the other things about 22
that I was interested in.
So the part that was, I thought it was
interesting comment was about like replicating
the experience and it may be best to have,
you know, say going with a high powered rifle
because you have to relearn things from a 22.
They used to teach the police back in
the day to use 22 revolvers before moving
on to the 38 special and the 357 right.
And they figured we'll go over the principles
of marksmanship and we'll get them keyed
right in but they found that when they upped
it, and then you had the noise to contend with
and the recoil, they had to retrain them again.
And it was not a cost savings that they
figured it would be.
And so consequently, there is a school of
thought that says if you're using it as
a platform to train yourself to the next
level, maybe just start at that level and
start getting good at that from the get go.
So with the 22's, if you're telling someone
to go get one, I mean, it always comes
down to, well, what do you want to do?
And the person says, I don't know, I want it
to do everything right.
The Ruger 10-22, probably one of the most
popular 22's out there.
Is a semi-automatic 22, comes with a 10 round
magazine and people can accessorize it to their
heart's content and they can make it look old
and wooden and tactical and Gucci and whatever
they want with that.
So that's a popular one.
Or you can go and it doesn't cost much
money for them either.
Yeah I know.
I call it the bad habit rifle.
Right.
Oh the next round will get it, next
round will get it.
Yeah totally.
It's like, no, no, no.
You know, when I started shooting, so my first gun
was a little single shot 22 Steven's favorite.
I think it was from around the turn
of the century, falling block design.
And it had a custom stock made for it,
so it fit my little five-year-old frame.
I started shooting I was four, five, got my
first rifle and it had a Cooey barrel that was
cut down and changed and so that there
wasn't as much weight on the front end of it.
And it was one round at a time and you have
to cock the hammer all the way back and then
you pull the trigger.
I mean, typically the hammer cock back when
you put the lever down, but that was disengaged
for the youngster, right?
Yeah.
And all I wanted was a semi-auto and I was told
no semi-auto until you can make your rounds
count with this one, because all you end up
doing is counting on that next round right?
So when you say the bad habit maker, yeah,
I can see it from that perspective.
Definitely.
Yeah.
So what my dad taught me is he bought my
brother and I, a Bruno 22 full stock, fairly
heavy, robust 22.
And what his, what he says it, look, like I
want you guys to, you know, for one, have a
bolt action rifle, so that you're used to
cycling the shells from a shooting position.
Yep.
I want this to be a full stock, full length
firearm so that you get used to handling
a full length firearm that you've kind of
replicate the same shooting positions as
you go and so that was, that was his theory.
And that's one that I've carried through to
some of my training is kind of follow through
with all of the, whether you're practicing your
seated position or standing position or
supported positions with that firearm.
And you build some confidence in those
physical positions and then you eventually
once you've got the confidence, you need
shooting groups and then transitioning.
But man, even when you go from a 22 like
soon as you said, like 22's are fun,
they're easy to shoot.
Like once you pull the trigger on a
308 or a 243 man, it is like stunningly,
it's shocking.
It's not comfortable.
You know, it's not, yeah for your
first time, yeah.
Because you don't know what to expect right.
And a part of that process is, so if we've
talked about the shotgun, what you start learning
with that shotgun is the fact that you can shoot
light loads, you can shoot heavy loads, right?
You can, the lighter loads will have
less recoil and he start learning how
to manage recoil.
And the recoil management is a big part of
ensuring that you don't flinch, right?
You want to be able to maintain sight picture
throughout your shot.
The easiest way to maintain that recoil
management with your, let's say your shotgun,
is you've got your four point of contact, right?
You got your front hand on the forestock, you
got your shooting hand on the pistol grip, and
you've got your cheek on the stock and you
got the stock firmly into your shoulder.
And all of those are pressing into the
firearm and it's one of these things where
space equals pain.
If, when you first start out, you're like, man I
don't want to get hurt by this thing, I'm going
to hold it away from my shoulder a little bit.
Or I'm not really going to touch my cheek
down onto the comb of the stock here.
Nah, nah, you got to actually get that
cheek on there and rest it down firmly.
You have to put a little backwards pressure into
your shoulder and when you reduce that space,
you reduce the pain and it's kind of like
getting into a boxing ring with Mike Tyson.
You give him a couple inches to smack you,
man, you're going to hurt, but you glue his
glove to your face, you're going to get
dizzy, but he's not going to be doing them.
It's like, if you give him a little bit
of distance, right?
Yeah.
So you say that, that little gap creates a
bit of room for the firearm to travel and
essentially punch you.
Right.
In the shoulder right?
So the more you seal up the rifle to your body,
whether it's through your cheek, your arm,
through your hands, you're distributing
that shock through your body more evenly.
And softening that energy exchange into your body.
Yeah.
Right and the second thing is, how do you
manage that recoil?
Now, I remember, so when I was a kid and I started
shooting some competitive rifle and I was in the
army cadet program and they had Lee Enfields,
full-size rifles that were chambered in 22.
They sleeved them, made them 22 compatible, so
similar to what your father is doing right.
And then went on to full bore after that.
But when you watch these little guys and
gals shoot full bore, and you think oh man,
how are they going to handle that recoil?
And theypull a shot and then they climb back
up the mat again and they get in position.
They take the shot and then they crawl back
up the mat because it's pushing them back, and
they shoot these things all day long because
of how that recoil is affecting their body.
Whereas if you get a full size adult behind
it, that just plunks down and then the absorb
all of that recoil, it's going to be a
less enjoyable event.
So learning to kind of roll back with
it, to let it shove you and not fight it.
Like I've seen people when they're learning
to shoot, somebody else gets behind and they
hold their shoulder from the other side.
Oh, I'm going to help him out right.
Where the hold the shoulder from the
back sorry, from, let's say they're in
a standing position.
You guys can't see it, who are listening, but
Dylan and I we've got video going and we can.
Yep.
Hands where.
We're high fiving through the video and.
That's right.
No, no, absolutely.
I've heard that, like, you know, a more like,
well, you're six foot lots and a fairly solid
dude and if you were to shoot a high power,
high calibre rifle with lots of recoil.
Because your body, unless you've trained your
body, your body will actually instantly absorb
that weight without requiring, whereas
someone who is much more slight, will actually
like essentially like, we'll absorb that and
kind of fall backwards.
But the actual amount of energy transferring
into their bodies less than maybe a
heavier set person or a bigger person.
So I've heard that and I've seen that too.
I mean like Mickey is five foot nothing and a
hundred, or a buck-oh-one or something like tha
and she's enjoy shooting way more than I do.
And so it's kinda interesting to see
how she's able to manage recoil, so.
Right.
Well.
So with that in mind, like recoil being,
probably the thing that people most are concerned
about when thinking about a centerfire rifle,
I think the majority of people that I work
with, that will, that they can, they need a
deer gun that they might be able to eventually
go shoot a moose or an elk with at some point.
Right.
And but the primary thing is that, Hey they're
learning still, they need a deer gun, where
would you, what are some things you would
consider when evaluating what calibre to consider
for that new hunter?
Who's trying to buy one firearm, at least
for the next three or four years while they
enter the hunting world.
So we'll talk about it and then I'll give
you the shortcut.
Essentially, you talked about recoil, so
recoil, is this going to be energy, right?
The energy coming back.
For every action, there's an equal and
opposite reaction.
You want to have enough energy in that projectile
coming out in order to ethically and humanely
harvest an animal.
And they measure that energy by the mass of
the projectile going out, is essentially an
equation, it's one half mass times the velocity
squared, and that that'll give you the energy.
So what that tells you is the more mass
a projectile has, the more energy it's going
to transfer in both directions, right?
So that's going to be more recoil and more
energy transfer onto the animal that you're
wishing to harvest.
But it's half mass times velocity squared.
So if we take a look at the other side, the more
velocity we have, man, we can have less mass
projectile, but have a higher velocity and still
achieve the same or more energy on the target.
So there's a.
Can I just put that into, I'm going to
say that back to you.
Yeah yeah.
In the language that I think I understand.
Okay.
So you have the weight of the bullet.
In grains.
You have the speed.
Yeah, in grains, we call it ingrain and
then we have the speed the bullet goes.
Yeah.
And the more, the heavier and the faster
the bullet goes, the more energy it will
impact an animal with.
That's right.
And.
Go on, I interrupted.
Go on.
No that was it, so if you have a, you can have a,
and then you can start to play with the factors.
You can have a lighter bullet going faster.
Right.
That'll make the same amount of energy or
you can have a heavier bullet going slower.
Right.
Which will create enough energy or the similar
amount of energy so.
Right.
So when we look at it, and the only
reason I butt in, I said grains, right?
Because really, I mean, we're measuring
the energy in joules or foot pounds.
It's because when people go to buy their
ammunition for their firearm, they might
just think, Oh I need rounds for this calibre.
But that can come in different weight grain
projectiles that come out of there too.
So you can have ones that perhaps have a
bit more recoil or a bit more energy on
the animal as well.
So, I mean, when we talk about grains, we
measure powder in the same way, and I know some
people get confused and they're like, hold on,
are you counting those individual grains and
no that's not how it is.
Grains is a unit of measurement.
I mean, we've got, Jewlers will use Troy
weight right and I think grains kind of
came in there through the English system.
Druggist's use apothecary weight, avoirdupois
system was ounces and pounds and stuff.
And I think between Avoirdupois and Troy,
grains are probably measured about the same,
if I recall correctly.
But it's just a unit of measurement for weight.
So if you say I've got a 175 grain bullet
right, you going to know that they're
just talking about how much I think weighs.
Yep.
And.
175 grain bullet weighs more than
120 grain bullet.
Easy, yeah.
And that's it right?
You don't have to go much.
That's it.
Don't have to go much further than
that one, but.
Weighs about announce, maybe.
Yeah.
But now we know, I can have that one rifle and
I might be able to get different ammunition for
it for maybe something that I wanted penetrate
a little bit deeper and that penetration is
going to come through projectile shape, right.
And that projectile shape affects a
ballistic coefficient.
And that's a fancy way of saying just how it cuts
through the air, right?
The higher, the ballistic coefficient, the better
it cuts through the air.
But as well, it would be like, let's say you
have a needle, a needle can go through something
pretty darn good, but it's not going to be
transferring the energy the same way that a
hammer would, right.
A hammer is going to probably not penetrate
through something that well, but it's
going to transfer a lot of that energy.
So these are all kind of things that people
can kind of keep in the back of their mind.
And I told you, there's going to be a shortcut
at the end of this.
Yeah.
I love it.
When I asked you to talk about this topic,
you're like I can kind of get in the weeds
a little bit when I get into this stuff.
I'm enjoying this so.
I gave an example.
Yeah.
I gave an example to you because I said there is,
CBC asked me to opine on something one time and
I turned them down and instead I referred them
to another individual and afterwards I listened to
that individual's answer.
And although that answer, in my opinion, was
technically wrong, it was the correct answer
for CBC, cause it was so clear, so concise
and to the point.
And really on the technical side, who
cares what he got across was right.
So yes, I can get into the weeds a bit.
But this is good.
So let's, I think it's an important thing, I
mean, these are things that as people can
pick up on some of this stuff and they can dig
deeper into this and.
As they wish, yeah.
And so it's important to recognize that bullets
have different shapes.
Some are, fly through the air better.
Sure.
Than others and others do a better
job of essentially killing an animal.
Like they're designed to hit an animal and
they're, we call it opening up or getting
like, mushrooming out.
And then eventually well, bullets are actually
designed to try and like, when they hit the
animal, they're kind of designed to stop.
They're ideally, they're going to hit the animal,
drive, penetrate the flesh through the heart
and lungs and then ultimately stop there.
They want to dissipate all of their energy
in the animal to maximize the purpose
of that bullet, which is to kill the animal.
Other bullets are designed to fly really
stable and flat for a long distance and
be extremely accurate at distance, but
they may be less effective at that job
of potentially hitting an animal and opening
up and killing it.
So there's always a bit of a balance between,
what that bullet's designed to do and its
performance, whether it's for target shooting
or the performance, if it's designed to be a
load that is intended to shoot into, to open
up and kill an animal.
So that's sort of where we dive into that
bullet world and get to know what different
bullet manufacturers and how they perform
it at different.
And they all perform at different speeds too,
it's fascinating stuff.
You can go down and go deep into it right?
You know, but.
What's the guys name?
Bryan Litz or lilts, litz?
He's got a few books out there.
I mean, if you really want to geek out on that
kind of stuff, there's a guy to go check out his.
But and that this is exactly what you say
here, which is why we have laws that say,
if you're going to be using certain types of
ammunition for harvesting animals, it has to be
expanding ammunition.
It's gotta be designed to be able to open up
and transfer that energy.
And there are, I guess, different schools of
thought within hunters, some who say, man I
wanted to the projectile to go in and stop in the
middle of that animal and just completely make your
primary wound channel and your secondary cavity.
And it just, I want a lot of damage
go right through.
Some say, I don't want it to stop till it
gets to the skin on the other side, right?
Like basically as much penetration without
over penetrating.
And then I've heard some say, no, I want
through and through, I want it to go in and
do some damage and then come out the other side
cause it gives a better blood trail to track.
Ehh, you know, once he started getting there,
here, you're using your expanding tip
projectiles and you're probably cranking out a
little too much power.
And when we start looking at this power
thing, when people start saying, I want one
gun, quite often, they say bigger is better.
And bigger is not necessarily better
because the worst thing that you can do as
a new firearms owner is ingrain a flinch,
flinching yourself, right from the get go.
That's hard to overcome a flinch.
Are you still there Dylan?
All right, so right about now I realize that Dylan
is having some technical difficulties on his end
and this voiceover, well, this voiceover is only
here to serve as a segue between the first half
and the second half.
I don't know where I was, because we've
been down for a little bit, the joys of doing
online podcasting, this is our second time.
This is a second time Dylan that you and first
time, your battery, you forgot to plug in your
computer, but this time it wasn't your fault.
How do you remember these things?
God.
Okay, great.
I dunno.
Everything, it's like a steel trap.
Yeah.
You're pulling out these quotes are
these like, yeah.
I love it.
But yeah, no, I definitely, yeah.
I just had a malfunction of the whole system
here, but I appreciate your patience and
we'll get back to it.
So we were kind of talking about like, you
know, bullet coefficient and talking about
bullet, the variation.
And I think this is a cool thing you're talking
about was like, this is the variation between,
you know, even if you go with one calibre rifle,
you still have a lot of options as to whether
you want to shoot heavy bullets out of it, or a
lighter bullets or and the bullet configuration,
how they're designed and shape has a
different, so.
You know, it's a kind of a cool conversation
because as much as a variation in the calibre,
which is where I want to kind of lead us here,
there's also within any calibre there's variation
in terms of the weight, the design of the bullet,
what it's designed to do.
And then you even mentioned about grains.
How many grains of gunpowder that you put
behind the bullet to shoot it, which makes
it perform differently.
So it really is a complicated discussion
as you get down and start talking about
bullet design and the configuration of
the actual cartridge.
Right.
So on that note, what do you think is the most
versatile cartridge, like most versatile calibre.
So total wormholes.
So I'm going to throw out okay.
Because if someone's getting into it and
they want to use it for hunting, I mean
in British Columbia anyways, we don't have
any restrictions on our big game hunting until
you get to bison, right.
So bison's what?
175 grain, 2000 foot pound, or more energy
at a 100 meters.
So aside from that, you're kind of free to
use whatever you want when you're hunting
anything but bison.
So you're going to want to, I mean, there
are some centerfire cartridges that just
don't have much oomph behind them that
it just wouldn't be ethical to use.
But if you're starting out and you're getting
into it, 243 Winchester, a 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-08,
308 Winchester, 270 Winchester, 30-06,
I mean, they're all great choices.
And 30-06 was always the old standby.
Everyone says, ah just get a 30-06, you can
load up, you can load down, go with that.
6.5 Creedmoor has been gaining a heck of a lot
more popularity lately.
It's got its detractors, it's got the people
who just swear by it, but it's going out of
there at a faster rate.
And the big thing it has going for it is, very
low recoil and still great muzzle energy.
Great ballistic coefficient, cuts
through the air and it'll take over most
of the game that you want within British
Columbia, most game within North America.
I pulled some good size black bears with a 6.5
Creedmoor just this year.
It comes down to your familiarity with the
firearm and your ability to put a round where
it matters, because if you're shooting something
in the tail or the foot, I mean, maybe a needle,
a canon behind you, but if you take your
time and you close that distance, your practice.
Everything that you're learning through,
EatWild and everything you're learning through
Silvercore and put that round where it matters,
then you don't really need a huge honking
calibre to do the job.
And in fact, I did pod, sorry, I'll let you go.
I did a podcast with the fellow, you and
I both know with Marshall Lowen and he
was, he recounted us.
Oh yeah.
Yeah and he recounted a story of a indigenous
woman who would use a 22 for moose hunting.
And he says, isn't that hard?
He says, she says, the hard part is getting
the animal home, right?
So shot placement really is where it's at.
I heard an interesting discussion and it was
about like the sort of, this guy went from
hunting, being a rifle hunter to a bow hunter,
and then you really get focused on shot
placement with the bow.
And with a bow, like you really are just trying to
poke a hole in the lung with a blade essentially.
And then you hope that that one hole in the
lung causes bleeding in the lungs and dies.
And the point I thought it was interesting, was
the individuals that, you know, it was so it's
just like, it just puts the whole discussion
around, you know, is 243 enough calibre to
take down a deer or a moose or it's just like,
it just like there's.
243 causes catastrophic damage to lungs.
Absolutely.
Beyond the, put any potential of any bow
hunter out there.
And there's bow hunters, shooting moose and
bison, anything else.
So like tha, like going to your point
about shot placement.
Any any of those high powered centerfire
rifles will cause enough damage to the lungs.
If you cause damage.
If you put a hole in the lungs, those animals
will die, they will die quickly and efficiently
and ethically.
So really a lot of it is about shot placement.
Really what I think where people start to
think about, you know, increasing the distance
they can shoot and carry energy out to longer
distances, it becomes a bit of a discussion.
And whereas some of the lighter rifles
lose energy cause they're, don't have
as much gunpowder behind the bullet
on a smaller rifle.
Like I have a 300 Winchester Magnum and
it's a gigantic cartridge and it makes a huge bang.
Sure it does.
Yeah.
Boots like a mule.
Yeah, I don't like it.
But it, you know, I have every confidence that
when I'm shooting an elk at 250 to 300 yards,
which is my outside range of comfort on an
animal of that size, that it's got plenty,
it still has 2000 foot pounds of energy to cause
devastation to the lungs.
And if I miss the lungs and hit in the shoulder,
it's gonna break enough shoulder and eventually
work its way into the lungs that I'm going to
is going to be a dead elk, 100%, for sure.
Whereas maybe with the 243 at 300 yards, if
you hit the shoulder, it may not penetrate
through the shoulder and into the lungs.
And I think that's kind of where the discussion
starts to go a little bit sideways or gets a
little bit more relevant, but if your shot
placement is perfect, it's all irrelevant.
It's all like, yeah the 22 will do enough damage
to the lungs, as long as you get it between
the ribs you know?
So Colonel Townsend Whelen, and he was a guy
for many, many years, everyone recorded him and
he says a thousand foot pounds of energy that's
what you need, right so.
Yeah.
Like full stop.
And everyone says, Oh, we need a
thousand foot pounds.
So if it's at X distance, I want have a thousand
foot pounds at that distance in order to
have ethical and humane.
The way that modern bullets are
constructed in modern ammo's being made.
And some people have different thoughts on it,
but that's always been the general knowledge.
And when you look at how you're going to
be putting an animal down it's going to die
through, realistically, one of two ways.
One way you've got a CNS shot, a central
nervous system shot, so that's going to be brain
or spinal cord, right?
Second way is going to be that you
indeuce hypovolemic shock, essentially.
You induce hypovolemic shock through massive
cardiopulmonary decompression, and that's
going to be interruption of its ability to breathe
or circulate oxygen through its body, through
heart or through lungs.
And the fastest way to fix that is to have a
bleed out quickly, right?
So you can put a whole bunch of rounds
into something.
The more rounds, the faster you're going
to introduce that shock, but you're also
wasting a whole ton of meat too, right?
So those are some of the considerations.
When it comes to rifles, because just a segue back
to your point, just tell him what to get a Tikka
T3X, very popular, the new Sauer 100, popular.
Mauser M18's, popular and affordable, right?
So those are a few things that the listeners
might want to look at.
They're all Mauser action, bolt
action rifles.
That's simple.
Simple.
So it's bolt that bolt action for sure.
The, well let's not, we're not gonna let
you off the hook that simple, you listed like
seven different calibres.
If you had to buy one calibre for your
son, who's going to turn, say he's
turning 16 years old.
I've got him at 6.5 Creedmoor, that's
all my son shoots.
And my son shoots that because that's what
my wife shoots and I wish you'd sat because
International Barrels in Abbotsford spun up a
barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor for me just to test out.
And it keeps us all on the same ammo platform
when we're out there, rather than everybody
using different ammo.
6.5 Creedmoor was something that I was
interested in from an accuracy standpoint.
Did some reading about it, wanted to see how
the thing performed out in the field and
so far, I've been impressed with it.
I'm using the Hornady ELDX bullets in them,
and it's putting the animals down
quickly and humanely.
And, but that's just because I happened
to get it from International Barrels.
They made this deadly accurate barrel and I
ended up just going with that for my wife and a
son cause low recoil.
Yeah.
And that's so I think that's, to me, that's
the point I want to key on is that the
comfort of shooting?
So I'm a big advocate of the 243, the 6.5 or
the 7-08, because all three of those guns
have significantly less recoil than a 30-06 or
a 270, both of which are awesome calibres.
But the three that I just listed, they
have probably 30% to 40% less recoil,
so they're just more comfortable to shoot.
And I think, I mean, this is something that I
suffered from as a kid.
I, you know, the first guy in that my dad
bought me about a 6.5 pound, 30-06 when I was
13 or 14 years old and handed to me with a
couple of blocks as 180 grain Federal bullets.
And I went and shot it and just beat the shit
out of myself and I maintain that same fear
of recoil and well, and I still have a flinch that
I work on at all time.
And I have improved my shooting over the years,
but the thing that improved my shooting
the most is that when I bought a 7mm-08 and
I took it to the range and I was like, wow,
this feels to me like I'm shooting at 22.
It's just, I'm not afraid of it, I'm comfortable.
I just started building on like, I make a good
shot and I make another good shot and I make
another good shot, I got a good group.
And that confidence just like, helped me build up
my confidence, cause I could never comfortably
shoot the 30-06, I never enjoyed shooting it.
I ended up winning a 300 when I was, you
know, somewhere in my mid twenties at a BC
Wildlife Federation conference so now I've
got this beautiful Tikka 300, which is a
great elk, moose gun.
And I had it really got into elk hunting
then so it was, you know, effective for
hunting elk, but I hated shooting it and
I still do actually.
Like, I'm glad like, one shot a year,
great, go to the range.
Two inches high at a 100 yards, done,
back in the case, let's go elk hunting.
But I'll sit there and I'll actually shoot with
my 7-08 and I will build my confidence and comfort
at shooting at 300 yards.
And just trying to, I just enjoy shooting.
And that's the first time that I didn't enjoy
shooting until I was basically in my thirties,
like which is something to be said for that.
So yeah, I liked the call and the 6.5.
And that's not because I'm married
to the cartridge.
It's just happened to be something I was testing
out and it works well.
But all the cartridges you mentioned there,
recoil is going to be one of the things that
puts people off the most.
The fit of the firearm, you want to make
sure it fits to you.
Recoil can be mitigated through proper
technique, it can be mitigated through
having a heavier firearm because that's going
to change felt recoil.
The energy recoil is going to be the same,
but the length of time it takes, or the recoiled
impact on you is going to be dissipated over
a longer time period, so it's going to feel
more like a shove than a sharp push.
And then a good recoil pad on there, or even a
muzzle break if you don't mind the loud concussive.
Blowing your buddies eardrums.
Exactly.
So that can all help.
That can all help.
Yeah.
And.
Totally.
The real shortcut to all of that, and
we're talking about different, like kind of
calibres and guns and models on the rest and
you're talking about the Vancouver urbanite
living in an apartment, go to Reliable Gun and
Tackle on Fraser street, and they have a wide
selection and they'll take you down and they'll
take you through it.
And they just get those same questions asked
day in, day out and they're going to find
something that works with your budget and
that'll work for you, or your local gun store.
I mean, I just say Reliable cause
you're talking about Vancouver there.
That would be, that would be the shortcut,
I'd take this knowledge and go on and say, I
heard Dylan and Travis talkin about this.
Can we, I gotta say, I got a 7-08 or a 6.5,
but I think the other one that, that falls
into that same category that's worth mentioning
it, is the 308.
And I think the 308 is kind of the, both the
6.5 Creedmoor and the 7-08 are all built on the
same cartridge as a 308.
I think it's the same cartridge?
The same with the 6.5 yeah.
Right.
It just it's different sized bullet that
they're shooting out of the same cartridge, but
they're all relative.
They're short action rifle they're, so
that means they're not, they're a shorter
full, like the bullet length of the cartridge
length is short.
Which is, there's some advantage of
that because the gun has overall shorter.
In some cases you save an inch versus the 7-08 is
a whole inch longer, the bullet or the cartridge
is an inch longer.
So you just get that much more metal and around
the chamber and stuff.
So some merit to that, but the 308 is kind
of got that balance of recoil, but it
still will shoot a heavier bullet, if you.
It'll take everything.
Going bison hunting.
It'll take everything.
And yeah most, it's super, the bullet, that's
other thing to think about the affordability
of the bullets.
Like 308 ammo was by far the cheapest ammo,
so you could shoot lots of it if you're
going to shoot lots.
It's affordability and availability, especially
if you're going to be out in Timbuktu with
a firearm, you want to have something
that you can find ammo for if you need it.
And that was why I think 6.5 took a while
for people to kind of adopt because up
until recently, it wasn't as ubiquitous.
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
So the only, and then just thinking about
like, you know, the only downside of going with
like a 308 or sorry, a 30-06 or a 270 you
know, ultimately is how you manage recoil.
Like you said, there's options for
managing recoil.
Those rifles kind of do everything if you
want them, particularly the, yeah, if you're a
long range shooter, the 270 is a great option.
If you want to be a moose hunter, an elk hunter
and a deer hunter to the 30-06 is about as good
as it gets, but again, you're managing recoil.
So I think we kinda, I think we kinda covered
that off a little bit.
I think so.
I think for more or less, if they want to delve
in more, I mean, they can always email us.
Phone us up.
Sure email us.
And I like your suggestion.
It's just go see the guys or the folks I
should say down at Reliable there they,
what I like about Reliable is that they're
very accessible shop.
Like they could see a new hunter walking to
the door and they make you feel welcome and make
you feel like it's not a, that, cause it's a fairly
intimidating experience walking into a gun store.
And they do a good job of yeah, making everybody
feel comfortable.
Yeah.
On that note, I was going to ask you, this is one
of the questions I had and as we were gonna
try and wrap up here I think, but I'm curious
what you think the value is in the market of say
like a new hunter going, Hey, should I buy a used
rifle or a new rifle?
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go?
Yeah, get new.
Get a new rifle, unless you're getting it from
a reputable source.
It will stand behind it afterwards because a lot
of, when you're getting brand new into this,
you want to know that your equipment works.
And if you're buying something used off of
uncle Bob, or if they find a advertisement in
a buy and sell somewhere and you pick the thing
up, there's a whole bunch of questions
that you're gonna have.
Like, did the person mess with it ahead of time?
I mean, you never know how there's a lot of
backyard gunsmiths and people who get it a
dremmel tool and they figure that, hey, I
can do whatever I want and now I'm a gunsmith,
I got a dremmel.
If you know what you're doing, by all means
get used to it right.
If you're into it for a while and you've been
around firearms, you know what you're looking
for, get a used firearm.
I mean, there's a possibility to save
some good money and get some great deals.
But if you're just getting into it, the
price of some of these new firearms that shoot
extremely well out of the box it's just, to me,
it doesn't make sense to delve in the used market
as your first firearm.
I totally agree.
Like there's not, I mean, the one thing
that's great about, if you're going to be
that person that buys lots of firearms, it's
kind of like having money in the bank.
Like firearms don't typically go down in
value all that much.
The resale value is pretty high on a
well cared for rifle.
So the flip side of that is that if you're
thinking that you're going to go, you want
to save a few hundred bucks and you're going to
explore the use market.
A good quality firearm has been well cared
for is going to be basically the same
cost as a new one.
It's incredible that, you know, that resale
value, often guns, the manufacturers, it's
just not available.
Some of the calibres or the manufacturer, the
type of type of rifle.
So I've got rifles in my closet that are worth
more now than when I bought them three or
four years ago, like it's kinda unique that way.
So I don't think there's a huge
benefit of going used.
And like you said, there's the concern of
what was the history of the rifle before so.
And even if everything's fine on a firearm, but
you're not hitting the target and then you're
sitting in the back of your head thinking, is
it because the rifles not working as it
should, did somebody monkey with it, right.
At least you can eliminate some of
those variables.
Well, and then the last thing abouy used
firearms, I've got some firearms I don't like,
cause I've never been able to shoot them well.
Sure.
So there's something fundamentally wrong
with me or something fundamentally wrong
with the rifle and I might consider selling
that rifle and passing it on because I just
never been able to get comfortable with it.
So most.
That's right.
The firearms that I like, that I shoot well with.
You hold onto them.
Are still in my locker.
So like the ones that are out there, I mean
the only way I see, like there's benefit of
going with some, where you get some benefit is
maybe in the optics part.
Like you might find it like an old Remington
with a good Leupold golden scope on it for
five or 600 bucks or something like that.
And you may be getting $300 with optics and
it's a three or $400 gun and the package is
probably better than you might buy for the same
value in the new market.
There's maybe those types of deals around
and maybe if you have an uncle or a family member
that you know, is passing on some guns and moving
them out, there may be some options to look at.
But I think, the other piece and the last
question, I'm gonna ask you a Travis before
I let you go and.
Yeah, yeah.
Enjoy the rest of your evening is, you know,
people come up against the question of whether
they should buy a stainless rifle or a
blued rifle when thinking about their first rifle.
Do you have any initial thoughts on where
the value is there?
Yeah, stainless.
That was easy.
Getting your first rifle, I mean, you're
brand new to the game of learning how to
clean it and learning how to care for it.
Blued firearms are great and there's
nothing wrong with them.
Really, if you're learning about how to
care for your firearm and you're going to be
on the field for a few days, save yourself
the hassle and just get something that's
going to stain less.
It's not that it's not going to rust, right?
It's, can still very well rust and the parts
inside it can rust, and if you don't like the
color of red color of the silver firearm paint it.
Or they, you can actually, there is
chemical processing, you can blacken stainless
firearm, you can buy them like that too.
But the old school of thought was that's
stainless didn't shoot as well as
a, let's say blued carbon steel firearm.
The advancements in metallurgy and the way
it's put together, you know, most of the high
end shooters are shooting stainless barrels.
So I would be inclined as a brand new shooter
to go that route.
And then you can play around from there.
I don't know, what would you say?
Oh, I mean, I grew up with stainless
guns, cause that was when my first kind
I had and I did buy a like a beautiful
wood stock Stier with a blued barrel.
Oh yeah.
That was that 7-08 that I came across
somewhere along.
Nice.
The way.
And, beautiful gun, I love shooting it, but
like I like the thought of taking it on a
sheep hunt or something just like, I was like,
no, I can't do that.
I'll just, just destroy it.
And that's it, like, you nailed another point in
there because really who cares if it's rusted?
I mean, will it still shoot as long as it's
not rusty in the bore?
It'll so shoot, but it's the worry.
It's like jewelry man.
That's it, you got it.
Right.
So if you're going out and breaking the bank
to buy some brand new first firearm you've
ever had and you just got the most expensive
pretty thing out there, are you really going to
want to use it, right?
Well, I've got a hunting partner, Jenny P, who
is often on the podcast.
She has a nice Micro Midas Browning a
firearm, and this is a real piss off.
If you're a female or if you're a short statured
hunter with a short pole, like the pole, you
have very few options for gun manufacturers
that make firearms in a smaller rifles for
'em in stainless steel.
In fact, there's almost no options.
The majority of the manufacturers make
youth model rifles, but I think in their mind,
they're like, well, they're, if you're a
youth you're going to grow out of this gun, so
you don't really need a stainless long-term gun.
But you know, I've been down this path a number
of times with female friends of mine who
are shorter stature, and we're looking for a
smaller gun and there's very few firearms on
the market that are both stainless steel, give you
an array of calibres and come in more micro sizes.
And the one that actually helped my cousin, Jess,
and then now just Mickey buy, is a Remington
Model Seve and it's a short stock and a short
barrel and it does come in a stainless barrel,
beautiful little gun and.
But there's very few options that are
available to smaller statutes shooters.
So something that the industry could start
cluing into that, you know, women and
little people want to hunt in the mountains
too, and want to have the versatility
of a stainless gun.
Totally.
Or just make it modular.
So you can just, rather than having to take
it to a gunsmith and chop it down, get one
that you can just take spacers out, right?
You can sell to.
Of course.
A whole wide.
From a marketing standpoint, I don't know.
But you're right.
You're right.
Not a lot of options.
And so anyway, I think it was talking about
Jenny P, who I, you know, we've done huge
adventure hunts together.
And this poor, like Browning micro midas
that she has is, which is a Woodstock and a
blued barrel, like it's just been beat to shit.
Like we took, last year we took 150 kilometers
of whitewater rafting, you know, knocking on
the bottom of a boat.
It was, we went on a bear, saltwater
fishing bear hunt.
So her rifle is like knocking around on the
front of my boat in saltwater conditions, you
know.
So let me ask you this, is it rusty?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it'srusted up, but the barrel
is probably fine.
Okay.
So yeah, you know, it's one of these things
that you really got to stay on top of it if
you're going to be in those conditions for
a long period of time.
There's nothing wrong with blued,
there really isn't.
But for a first gun, if you had the money to
spend and your looking for a little bit easier
maintenance and the rest of yourself, I'd
lean towards stainless.
Yeah, I think stainless is, I mean, if you can
afford it is probably 30% more I think, like
if you go across the board to invest in
the 20 or 30% more.
But I think you'll get that back right away
when you, the first time you get out there, you
know, you come back to your tent, it's soaking
wet and you're gone soaking wet, and you
can't do anything to really dry it out cause
you're sleeping in a pup tent for the night
and it rains for four more days after that.
Like it's a lot, it's really nice having
that stainless in that type of conditions.
Or they could listen to the tips and tricks
on the EatWild podcast about how to care for
your firearm, when out in the field.
Well, that's great.
We shouldn't mention that.
So the last time that we talked, we hung
out, we talked about, we had gun care in the
field and storage and that was a lot of fun.
And I said, that was the one that probably
got the most feedback from listeners.
Just like enjoyed just getting that, those tips.
But this has been really fun, hanging
out with you Travis.
I think, we should do this more often
and hang out.
I think we've got a bit of a plan.
I taught that I talked to Mark Hall of the
Hunter Conservationist podcast and I think it'd
be fun having a longer conversation around like
hunter certification and training for firearms
for new hunters and the standards that we apply.
And what that looks like when people get
out there in the field.
I think there's a great conversation there.
So I'm hoping that we can meet up in the next
couple of months and have that conversation with
Mark and you up for that?
How fun would that be?
And I think between the three of us, we
could probably have an opinion or two on
the subject matter.
Perhaps.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I think we've all done a lot to, you
know, I think everybody at the same, when it
comes to new hunters and ensuring that people
have the support they need and the mentorship.
I think that's something that we're all talking
about and thinking about.
And, we know how hard it is for new hunters to
get in and get involved.
So Travis, if people want to find you, where
would they find you?
So if they're looking for the Silvercore podcast,
you can download that anywhere fine podcasts
are distributed, so we're essentially on
all the platforms or YouTube, or you can
go to Silvercore.ca and I believe we've
got blog posts with the full transcripts.
And if you have ADHD like myself and you
just want to get right to the point, you can
find it right there.
Oh, cool.
Let's take it to the next level, that's
awesome and that.
Awesome.
Hey.
And then of course Travis.
Of course, you're going to have a copy of this
transcript as well.
If this is a share cast, I'll give you a
copy and there you go.
Good to go.
There you go.
I learned something.
Yeah, for sure.
Awesome, well I really enjoyed having you
on here, Travis.
Hey, so everybody else out there, thanks so
much for hanging out with Travis and I, you
know, for sure we're still living COVID life,
I just want to say like we're all on lockdown
here, no doubt you know, some people that are
really challenged right now with maintaining
social connection.
So I just say, remind you to get out there, call up
those friends of yours, have a conversation,
reach out to them because I know that people
are suffering now.
Just something I've been thinking about lots right
now is as these days are getting shorter.
Yeah, stay connected with those people you
care about and reach out.
And I'll be doing more podcasts coming up and
if you're looking for a gift for this Christmas,
I'm rolling out my EatWild webinars series,
is a great idea for the hunter in your life
to give them a gift of learning and hanging out
with Dylan and friends on the webinar series.
I can vote for that one because I sat in on one
of your webinars and that was a fun time.
That was a good thing, check it out.
Oh, yeah, there are tons of fun, thanks
for that Travis.
I enjoy doing them and usually get an audience
of, you know, 20, 25 people and a few experts
and we just got a presentation to follow
and, yeah do our best to equip people on a topic
that I think is important to be a better hunter.
So yeah, they've been fun.
Dylan, it was a great idea.
Love doing these things.
I look forward to the next one we do.
Yeah, right on, that was a lot of fun.