WEBVTT

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to Just DAOIT,

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the podcast for people starting DAOs.

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I'm Adam Miller, and I'm your host.

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This week,

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we have Arnold Almeida on the show.

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Really excited for you to

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get to meet him shortly.

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As always,

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we're going to do the first half

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of the show as the Just DAOIT News Report,

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where I will summarize

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recent DAO news for our

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guests and for the audience,

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and then we'll each give

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our takes on the story.

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What does it mean for people

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starting DAOs?

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Do we agree or disagree with the author,

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etc. ?

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So before we get to the news report,

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Arnold,

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would you please give a brief

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introduction to yourself

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and in particular,

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what makes you an authority on DAOs?

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Cool.

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Thanks, Adam, for the introduction.

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So I'm an Australian from Sydney,

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living in London at the moment.

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And back in the day,

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I heavily got into Bitcoin.

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In fact,

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I invested in one of the first

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sort of Bitcoin ATMs in Australia.

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But guys,

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don't worry about hacking me

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because I spent all my

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Bitcoin buying whiskey

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sours at Room 77 in Berlin.

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That's a little bit of the crypto history.

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What makes me an authority on DAOs?

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In the last three years,

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I've spent my time coordinating DAOs,

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writing over 30 proposals

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and actually using the DAO

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as a mechanism to rescue a project.

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Through that experience,

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that has led me to

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learn a lot about DAOs,

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participate in various different DAOs,

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and form my own opinions

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that has led me to build my

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product at the moment,

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which is Lighthouse.

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But we can get to that later.

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Interesting.

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I have a brief preview.

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What's the elevator pitch?

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For Lighthouse?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So Lighthouse is a tool that...

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aggregates multiple DAO governance systems,

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such as Snapshot, Open Zeppelin Governor.

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And what we're trying to do

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is make it really simple

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for normal users who may

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not be familiar with crypto

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to learn and participate in DAOs.

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Love it.

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That's awesome.

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Cool.

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Well, as you know,

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I have used Lighthouse

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myself and I could see a

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good use case for both

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people new to DAOs and

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helping them get into DAOs

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and also for someone who's

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very into DAOs already and

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just trying to make their life easier.

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We will dive into Lighthouse

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in great detail in about

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half an hour after the Just

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Dawit news report.

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And then also, in case anyone doesn't know,

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you mentioned your journey

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started in Room 77 in Berlin.

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For anyone who doesn't know, what is that?

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So Room 77 was one of the first...

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Bitcoin cafes, I believe,

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that actually accepted Bitcoin.

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So I had initially bought Bitcoin over,

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I think,

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local Bitcoins through some funny

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transfer, bank transfer,

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or I think maybe even cash.

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And I was traveling in Europe at the time,

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and I stumbled across Room 77,

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and they were like, hey,

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we accept Bitcoin.

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And yeah,

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I spent the Bitcoin that I

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purchased on a good

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afternoon at Whiskey's house.

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nice awesome all right cool

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thanks arnold so again we

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will get into in the

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in-depth interview with

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arnold about lighthouse and

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his background uh just

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after the news report so

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for now let's dive into the

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just out news report with

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the first story of the week

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which is a post on x and

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the post is from uh crypto uh zainab

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Maybe pronouncing it wrong.

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There will be a link in the show notes.

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And here's the post.

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I'll read and then summarize.

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In a world where DAOs are dull and boring,

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one protocol dared to be different.

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Dex Network.

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And that's spelled D-E-X-E Network,

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which is also a Twitter handle.

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The DAO game changer you've

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been waiting for is here.

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So what is Dex?

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Well, Dex is,

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I'm just gonna continue

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reading a little bit more,

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an AI powered

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permissionless launchpad for

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building high level Web3

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products across different chains.

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It's got all the tools you

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need to manage

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decentralized communities

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and assets like a boss.

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DAO constructor on steroids.

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Imagine Lego blocks, but for DAOs.

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DEX has got a library of 50

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plus smart contracts that

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let you build custom DAOs

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faster than you can say decentralization.

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From governance to treasury management,

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they've got you covered.

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Governance that slaps.

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Forget one size fits all.

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With DEX,

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you can create galaxy brain

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governance models.

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Use tokens, NFTs,

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or even soul bound tokens to vote.

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Mix and match like a true degenerate.

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The post goes on,

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the thread goes on to talk

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about treasury management,

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to talk about rewards in DAOs,

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to talk about the native token of DEX,

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this new protocol,

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and also talks about the

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importance of customization.

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So I thought this was really

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exciting because, and Arnold,

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maybe we've talked about

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this a bit offline,

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but I realized recently

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that in the three years or

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so I've been in the DAO space, you know,

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initially I was going to

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build DAO tooling like Dex, right?

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That was my plan.

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I was like, oh, that's what DAOs need.

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I'm going to go build it.

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I saw a lot of people

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building DAO tooling.

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And then I came across the

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opportunity to start my DAO

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to focus on the legal side of DAOs,

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legal entity side of DAOs.

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But looking back,

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I think I'm either

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unimpressed by how much

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progress has been made

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or I'm not aware of the

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progress that has been made

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in the DAO tooling space, like for DAO.

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And I don't even mean stuff

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like Lighthouse that, you know, well,

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we can talk more about that too,

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but like platforms for

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actually launching DAOs.

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So I'm excited to see DEX again,

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it's D-E-X-E network.

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I'm curious to meet some

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folks who have used their technology

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It certainly sounds very compelling.

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And I certainly think there

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is a need for more DAO

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platforms so that anyone

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who's thinking about starting a DAO,

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whatever the approach you

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want to take for your DAO,

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that you have a tool that

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helps you do it.

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Because most people are not

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going to write smart contracts, right?

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Most people that want to start a DAO,

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either there's going to be

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a tool that helps them do

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it or they're not going to start a DAO.

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They'll go do something else.

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So I'm excited to see what

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Dex is up to here.

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What do you think, Arnold?

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Yeah, I think...

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It's definitely an innovation.

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Composing DAO tooling is

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actually very complex and

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probably cost prohibitive

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to a lot of people,

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which is why in the last

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three to five years,

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there's probably only been

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a small handful of players

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who've been able to deliver

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on that promise really well.

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And there's a really great

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divide in how people want to run a DAO.

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At the moment,

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you would say it's either

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gasless or on chain.

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And I think one of the

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interesting points with

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DexE over here is that they

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are alluding to an AI automation.

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So that is also signaling

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this idea of a cybernetic organization.

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But with a lot of turnkey solutions,

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and again,

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I haven't looked into this protocol,

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so I may be wrong.

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I think the way most

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organizations are structured,

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they're very diverse,

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and each of the

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organizations have their own objectives.

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And as such,

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they might have different

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internal hierarchies that

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need to be purpose built

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for that organization.

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So I think

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Yeah,

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it will be interesting if their suite

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of smart contracts enable that.

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And at the moment,

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if we want to compare it to

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what's currently on the market,

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we are having to leverage

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different protocols to

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achieve the same outcome.

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Now,

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whether you think it's a good or a bad

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thing, I'm not sure.

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But I do believe in the

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power of composability.

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And as the industry matures,

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we'll be seeing more things

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that we probably want to

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compose that haven't been thought of yet.

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So that's my take on that.

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Yeah,

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it seems like everyone or most people

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in the DAO space are

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probably agreed on the

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importance of composability for DAO tools,

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right?

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Whether you're building a

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big tool with 50 parts,

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And then maybe people want

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to pick and choose parts

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and bring in another part.

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Or if you're just building a

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component or a part or a

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platform or a layer or whatever,

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either way,

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it seems like most people are

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looking forward to and

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building towards a world of

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composability.

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Have you found that with Lighthouse?

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I know we haven't talked a

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lot about what Lighthouse does,

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but have you found that

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when you want to...

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support different DAOs from

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different ecosystems that

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the tooling is actually as

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composable as it would ideally be?

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I wouldn't say it's composable,

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but so far we have

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integrated with Snapshot

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and we've done integrations

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with DAOs that leverage

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variations of the Open

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Zeppelin governor contract.

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And even within that space,

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what we've actually seen is that

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there is such a diversity in terms of how,

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even just like snapshot, that's one tool,

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but snapshot has this

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interesting feature called strategies,

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which means they can layer

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different ways based on

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that organization.

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So for example,

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you could have a root ERC20 token,

00:09:43.602 --> 00:09:45.442
but people might also have

00:09:45.462 --> 00:09:46.323
a staking token,

00:09:46.364 --> 00:09:47.923
which gives them additional

00:09:47.964 --> 00:09:48.964
voting rights and whatnot.

00:09:49.245 --> 00:09:50.865
And that varies quite drastically.

00:09:50.945 --> 00:09:53.086
So even when we did our analysis of,

00:09:53.806 --> 00:09:55.807
the top 300 DAOs, for example,

00:09:57.206 --> 00:09:58.307
there was such a diversity

00:09:58.927 --> 00:10:00.427
in that small set,

00:10:01.769 --> 00:10:03.188
which makes it quite a

00:10:03.208 --> 00:10:04.950
challenge for an indexer

00:10:04.970 --> 00:10:06.789
like ourselves to create

00:10:07.910 --> 00:10:09.010
consistent tooling and

00:10:09.030 --> 00:10:10.390
deliver a consistent interface.

00:10:10.471 --> 00:10:12.552
So yeah,

00:10:12.611 --> 00:10:14.952
that's something to definitely consider.

00:10:16.043 --> 00:10:17.404
Yeah, interesting.

00:10:17.664 --> 00:10:19.025
Was there also diversity in

00:10:19.086 --> 00:10:21.227
terms of whether the top

00:10:21.227 --> 00:10:23.169
300 DAOs are using a

00:10:23.210 --> 00:10:26.032
platform at all versus writing,

00:10:26.192 --> 00:10:27.393
even if they're using open source,

00:10:27.432 --> 00:10:29.634
but writing their own smart contracts,

00:10:29.715 --> 00:10:31.655
uploading their own Zeppelin contracts,

00:10:31.676 --> 00:10:32.236
stuff like that?

00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:35.100
Yeah, there was diversity there as well.

00:10:35.321 --> 00:10:36.162
So a lot of,

00:10:36.922 --> 00:10:39.884
even between straight up ERC20

00:10:39.923 --> 00:10:41.565
contracts that had balance of,

00:10:42.485 --> 00:10:43.186
a lot of DAOs,

00:10:43.667 --> 00:10:46.128
because they had specific implementations,

00:10:46.187 --> 00:10:47.528
they had custom contracts

00:10:47.568 --> 00:10:48.909
and then there would be a

00:10:48.950 --> 00:10:49.910
strategy that would sit on

00:10:49.951 --> 00:10:51.091
top of that custom contract

00:10:51.552 --> 00:10:54.354
in order to deliver voting power,

00:10:54.453 --> 00:10:55.914
which is the sort of term

00:10:56.014 --> 00:10:58.177
used to calculate how much

00:10:58.197 --> 00:10:59.677
a person is allowed to vote

00:11:01.198 --> 00:11:02.219
within the snapshot system.

00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:02.620
Yeah.

00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:03.519
Yep.

00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:04.120
Cool.

00:11:04.900 --> 00:11:05.120
Okay.

00:11:05.221 --> 00:11:05.522
Awesome.

00:11:05.741 --> 00:11:06.022
All right.

00:11:06.201 --> 00:11:07.342
The next story of the week.

00:11:07.543 --> 00:11:08.583
This is actually a press

00:11:08.604 --> 00:11:11.746
release from Tally on Business Wire.

00:11:12.547 --> 00:11:14.208
And the headline is Tally

00:11:14.269 --> 00:11:15.870
unveils new liquid staked

00:11:15.990 --> 00:11:16.971
governance protocol.

00:11:17.471 --> 00:11:18.591
Token holders will be able

00:11:18.631 --> 00:11:19.712
to stake in the Tally

00:11:19.753 --> 00:11:21.033
protocol and receive a

00:11:21.573 --> 00:11:23.255
Tally liquid staked token

00:11:23.755 --> 00:11:24.716
that earns rewards,

00:11:24.876 --> 00:11:26.177
can be used for financial

00:11:26.278 --> 00:11:27.698
utility anywhere in crypto,

00:11:28.099 --> 00:11:29.500
and allows them to maintain

00:11:29.541 --> 00:11:30.721
their governance power.

00:11:31.841 --> 00:11:34.743
So Tally is a one of the, you know,

00:11:34.802 --> 00:11:36.322
I'll say clearly seems to

00:11:36.363 --> 00:11:38.764
be one of the leading DAO platforms,

00:11:38.803 --> 00:11:41.303
one of the leading DAO tooling providers.

00:11:42.163 --> 00:11:42.764
I have to admit,

00:11:42.903 --> 00:11:44.605
I've never come across a

00:11:44.664 --> 00:11:46.304
DAO that I've been part of that,

00:11:46.365 --> 00:11:48.346
at least to my knowledge, is on Tally.

00:11:48.385 --> 00:11:50.385
Maybe they use Tally in the

00:11:50.426 --> 00:11:52.306
background and then you

00:11:52.326 --> 00:11:54.147
just don't see it in the foreground.

00:11:55.366 --> 00:11:56.168
But they're everywhere.

00:11:56.187 --> 00:11:57.808
I mean, you see them sponsoring big events,

00:11:57.869 --> 00:11:59.070
you see announcements like this.

00:11:59.490 --> 00:12:01.270
So I think they're doing a lot.

00:12:01.871 --> 00:12:04.873
And part of this

00:12:04.913 --> 00:12:06.313
announcement is that

00:12:06.413 --> 00:12:07.274
they're not just doing this

00:12:07.315 --> 00:12:08.696
for themselves in terms of

00:12:08.735 --> 00:12:09.616
allowing for staking.

00:12:09.657 --> 00:12:11.357
This is a feature anyone can

00:12:11.457 --> 00:12:14.600
use now who's building a DAO on Tally.

00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:17.201
And so another good example

00:12:17.321 --> 00:12:18.802
of more capabilities being

00:12:18.881 --> 00:12:21.462
added to DAO platforms and DAO tooling,

00:12:22.364 --> 00:12:24.085
certainly very exciting.

00:12:24.485 --> 00:12:26.826
And I think staking is a

00:12:26.846 --> 00:12:27.866
good example of the kind of

00:12:27.907 --> 00:12:29.667
mechanism that I don't

00:12:29.706 --> 00:12:31.388
think existed before crypto,

00:12:31.687 --> 00:12:34.210
before DAOs in organizations, right?

00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:36.390
Like Microsoft never said, well,

00:12:36.490 --> 00:12:37.971
if you take your Microsoft stock

00:12:38.672 --> 00:12:40.471
and you stake it and you

00:12:40.511 --> 00:12:41.451
lock it up for a year,

00:12:41.471 --> 00:12:43.033
we're going to give you a

00:12:43.432 --> 00:12:44.592
discount on your next

00:12:44.832 --> 00:12:48.293
Microsoft purchase or startups don't.

00:12:48.774 --> 00:12:50.153
I mean, you're either in or you're out,

00:12:50.214 --> 00:12:50.354
right?

00:12:50.374 --> 00:12:51.514
You have stock or you don't.

00:12:52.033 --> 00:12:52.774
I don't think there's ever

00:12:52.813 --> 00:12:54.995
been an equivalent to staking,

00:12:55.975 --> 00:12:57.134
but it's one of the things

00:12:57.174 --> 00:12:58.154
that people are doing a lot

00:12:58.174 --> 00:13:00.115
of experimentation with in

00:13:00.436 --> 00:13:02.196
DAOs and crypto and this

00:13:02.255 --> 00:13:03.936
concept that there's a

00:13:03.975 --> 00:13:04.836
potential difference

00:13:04.916 --> 00:13:06.356
between a person who just

00:13:06.397 --> 00:13:07.616
wants to hold a token

00:13:08.336 --> 00:13:09.336
And then maybe a person who

00:13:09.376 --> 00:13:10.677
wants to stake it and lock

00:13:10.717 --> 00:13:12.518
it up or do something else with it.

00:13:12.938 --> 00:13:14.519
So I think this is really cool.

00:13:14.619 --> 00:13:15.379
What do you think, Arnold?

00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.399
I thought it was extremely interesting.

00:13:20.221 --> 00:13:21.201
For the first time,

00:13:22.162 --> 00:13:25.383
we can still maintain voting power and.

00:13:27.845 --> 00:13:29.125
effectively have a means of

00:13:29.225 --> 00:13:30.785
re-hypothecating the token

00:13:31.385 --> 00:13:33.407
which can then be used for

00:13:33.547 --> 00:13:35.107
additional yield now that's

00:13:35.748 --> 00:13:37.328
very complicated and I'm

00:13:37.349 --> 00:13:38.708
not really sure how that

00:13:38.788 --> 00:13:41.929
translates to security look

00:13:42.169 --> 00:13:43.410
security laws or whatnot

00:13:43.971 --> 00:13:45.293
but I think we've seen

00:13:45.352 --> 00:13:46.974
examples of this with curve

00:13:47.455 --> 00:13:48.635
um when you sort of lock

00:13:48.696 --> 00:13:50.217
your curve tokens and then

00:13:50.238 --> 00:13:51.438
you get ve curve which

00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.461
gives you a boost on the

00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:53.442
sort of governance voting

00:13:53.461 --> 00:13:55.224
power I think if I'm if I'm

00:13:55.423 --> 00:13:57.846
sounds right yeah so

00:13:58.287 --> 00:13:59.008
there's definitely an

00:13:59.067 --> 00:14:00.610
upside where you retain

00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:03.932
your voting power um but I'm just

00:14:05.184 --> 00:14:06.426
Yeah, it's a new model.

00:14:06.446 --> 00:14:09.288
I don't know what's going to

00:14:09.308 --> 00:14:09.729
come out of it,

00:14:09.990 --> 00:14:11.671
but it's an interesting experiment.

00:14:11.730 --> 00:14:13.253
So really excited to see

00:14:13.273 --> 00:14:13.913
what happens there.

00:14:14.994 --> 00:14:15.214
Yeah,

00:14:15.235 --> 00:14:17.096
and I guess maybe it's as simple as just,

00:14:17.456 --> 00:14:18.356
in some cases,

00:14:19.418 --> 00:14:21.179
if previously you might

00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.621
have staked a token and

00:14:23.842 --> 00:14:26.044
you're just giving it to a smart contract,

00:14:26.345 --> 00:14:28.407
and now you no longer have

00:14:28.427 --> 00:14:30.489
a standardized token

00:14:31.493 --> 00:14:33.333
form representation of the

00:14:33.374 --> 00:14:35.575
fact that you have staked

00:14:36.216 --> 00:14:37.176
in that smart contract.

00:14:37.255 --> 00:14:37.897
You just don't have your

00:14:37.937 --> 00:14:40.798
token anymore now with this

00:14:41.158 --> 00:14:42.379
kind of liquid staking

00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:44.500
feature and not that it's

00:14:44.581 --> 00:14:45.701
new and the others have it,

00:14:45.802 --> 00:14:47.042
but now you're getting a

00:14:47.322 --> 00:14:48.383
representation that you

00:14:48.423 --> 00:14:49.344
have done that staking.

00:14:49.384 --> 00:14:50.423
And so then you can go use

00:14:50.464 --> 00:14:51.325
that representation,

00:14:51.365 --> 00:14:52.605
that representation form

00:14:53.927 --> 00:14:55.828
in other ways, borrow against it,

00:14:55.989 --> 00:14:58.028
or sell it, or whatever.

00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:01.350
So that seems generally good.

00:15:01.389 --> 00:15:01.830
But actually,

00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:03.770
let me use this as a segue to

00:15:03.811 --> 00:15:05.051
the next story of the week,

00:15:05.630 --> 00:15:06.912
because we actually have a

00:15:06.951 --> 00:15:08.111
story about Curve.

00:15:08.772 --> 00:15:10.212
And let me start by reading the headline,

00:15:10.232 --> 00:15:11.033
and then I'll connect it

00:15:11.113 --> 00:15:14.134
back to what we were just talking about.

00:15:14.193 --> 00:15:15.514
So this is actually from a

00:15:16.614 --> 00:15:18.475
website called Blockanami.

00:15:19.714 --> 00:15:21.775
The logo looks a lot like Blockworks.

00:15:21.936 --> 00:15:23.136
I'm kind of curious if maybe

00:15:23.157 --> 00:15:24.778
there's a connection here.

00:15:25.698 --> 00:15:26.558
But the headline is,

00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:29.260
Curve DAO token CRV price

00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.182
plunges 30% amid founders liquidation.

00:15:32.683 --> 00:15:34.445
The price of Curve DAO token

00:15:34.585 --> 00:15:36.346
plummeted by nearly 30% as

00:15:36.446 --> 00:15:37.567
Curve finance founder

00:15:37.606 --> 00:15:39.849
Michael Egorov faced

00:15:40.009 --> 00:15:41.590
liquidation on his on-chain

00:15:41.629 --> 00:15:42.370
loan positions.

00:15:43.361 --> 00:15:44.643
Okay, so what happened here,

00:15:44.663 --> 00:15:45.423
and this is actually,

00:15:45.443 --> 00:15:46.403
this story has come up

00:15:46.423 --> 00:15:48.145
before at least once,

00:15:48.166 --> 00:15:49.966
I think about half a year ago,

00:15:50.427 --> 00:15:51.388
the same thing happened.

00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:56.172
And what's happening is one

00:15:56.211 --> 00:15:57.533
of the founders of Curve,

00:15:57.953 --> 00:15:59.914
who holds a large number of the tokens,

00:16:01.176 --> 00:16:02.496
took those tokens and

00:16:02.616 --> 00:16:04.058
borrowed a ton of money against them.

00:16:04.932 --> 00:16:06.173
And this is all out in the open,

00:16:06.192 --> 00:16:06.673
which is good,

00:16:06.693 --> 00:16:07.394
although I'm not sure if

00:16:07.455 --> 00:16:08.816
anyone really noticed it at first.

00:16:08.895 --> 00:16:12.940
But what happened was the

00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:14.981
value of the collateral

00:16:15.642 --> 00:16:18.585
fell enough that there's a

00:16:18.784 --> 00:16:20.246
risk that the Curve DAO

00:16:20.287 --> 00:16:21.288
founder's tokens are going

00:16:21.307 --> 00:16:22.089
to get liquidated,

00:16:22.129 --> 00:16:23.070
which means the Curve

00:16:23.110 --> 00:16:24.331
tokens could get liquidated.

00:16:24.390 --> 00:16:27.173
They could get forcefully taken from him.

00:16:27.193 --> 00:16:27.474
I mean,

00:16:27.494 --> 00:16:28.914
they're already locked in smart

00:16:28.934 --> 00:16:29.336
contracts.

00:16:29.655 --> 00:16:31.096
taken away from him and then

00:16:31.157 --> 00:16:32.297
sold on the open market,

00:16:32.417 --> 00:16:33.758
which will drive the price

00:16:34.077 --> 00:16:35.239
of the Curve token down.

00:16:35.899 --> 00:16:37.980
So the reason I say this is connected,

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:39.480
I guess actually in this case,

00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:40.480
you don't even need liquid

00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:41.741
staking to make this happen.

00:16:42.162 --> 00:16:43.261
You're actually just taking

00:16:43.302 --> 00:16:44.842
the governance token and

00:16:44.863 --> 00:16:45.863
borrowing against it.

00:16:46.283 --> 00:16:48.804
But the liquid staking example

00:16:49.605 --> 00:16:52.386
seems to be just kind of

00:16:52.606 --> 00:16:53.326
another way of

00:16:53.466 --> 00:16:54.908
financializing something so

00:16:54.927 --> 00:16:56.708
that you can do this if you want to,

00:16:57.089 --> 00:16:57.208
right?

00:16:57.229 --> 00:16:58.330
Whereas before you could

00:16:58.350 --> 00:16:59.809
have a DAO that says, all right,

00:16:59.850 --> 00:17:01.071
by staking your token,

00:17:01.671 --> 00:17:02.631
we have your token.

00:17:02.851 --> 00:17:04.032
Now you cannot go borrow

00:17:04.053 --> 00:17:05.292
against it because we have it, right?

00:17:05.313 --> 00:17:07.153
And it's ours until you take it back.

00:17:07.253 --> 00:17:08.275
You can't do anything with it.

00:17:08.734 --> 00:17:09.035
Now,

00:17:09.194 --> 00:17:10.476
if you provide a liquid staking

00:17:10.496 --> 00:17:12.377
derivative or token in

00:17:12.438 --> 00:17:14.318
exchange for that staked token,

00:17:14.338 --> 00:17:15.740
now you have something you

00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:16.681
can go borrow against.

00:17:17.201 --> 00:17:18.863
So for better or for worse,

00:17:18.883 --> 00:17:19.222
you're kind of

00:17:19.282 --> 00:17:20.304
reintroducing that

00:17:20.423 --> 00:17:23.526
financial nature of that

00:17:23.965 --> 00:17:25.567
arrangement that you have with the DAO.

00:17:26.527 --> 00:17:27.126
But again,

00:17:27.227 --> 00:17:29.028
this story is more just about

00:17:29.468 --> 00:17:30.667
something that I don't know

00:17:30.688 --> 00:17:31.907
how we could ever get away from.

00:17:31.948 --> 00:17:32.509
And I don't even know if

00:17:32.528 --> 00:17:33.449
there's anything wrong with it.

00:17:33.469 --> 00:17:33.929
I mean,

00:17:33.949 --> 00:17:34.989
how do you get away from the fact

00:17:35.009 --> 00:17:35.769
that sometimes you're going

00:17:35.789 --> 00:17:37.009
to reward people with a lot

00:17:37.029 --> 00:17:38.509
of money or a lot of shares

00:17:38.549 --> 00:17:39.330
or a lot of tokens,

00:17:39.951 --> 00:17:40.810
and then that person might

00:17:40.851 --> 00:17:42.632
go sell them or borrow against them?

00:17:42.652 --> 00:17:45.592
I think this is like a

00:17:45.692 --> 00:17:48.833
really good lesson in accountability.

00:17:51.550 --> 00:17:53.271
should any one person

00:17:53.593 --> 00:17:54.993
regardless of their status

00:17:55.054 --> 00:17:57.236
within a protocol have the

00:17:57.276 --> 00:17:58.696
ability to single-handedly

00:17:58.896 --> 00:18:01.318
crash a protocol and this

00:18:01.338 --> 00:18:02.460
is really a lesson in risk

00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.280
management I would say so I

00:18:04.701 --> 00:18:06.343
think we could use this as

00:18:09.284 --> 00:18:11.226
just a lesson for how we can

00:18:11.246 --> 00:18:12.186
build better checks and

00:18:12.227 --> 00:18:14.809
balances in the future to

00:18:15.471 --> 00:18:16.531
minimize this risk.

00:18:17.093 --> 00:18:19.575
I'm not saying that what he did was wrong.

00:18:19.675 --> 00:18:21.336
It's just that let's also

00:18:21.356 --> 00:18:23.138
bear in mind like Curve is one of the

00:18:24.251 --> 00:18:26.272
most interesting and most

00:18:26.333 --> 00:18:27.952
innovative protocols that came out.

00:18:29.133 --> 00:18:30.034
And at the time,

00:18:30.193 --> 00:18:30.854
we probably weren't

00:18:30.874 --> 00:18:32.193
thinking about how this could be done.

00:18:33.075 --> 00:18:36.836
And really, credit to,

00:18:37.115 --> 00:18:38.215
I believe it was the Aave

00:18:38.236 --> 00:18:39.836
team who signaled and first

00:18:40.076 --> 00:18:42.017
identified this existential

00:18:42.076 --> 00:18:44.238
risk and created

00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:47.980
but perhaps some proposals

00:18:48.101 --> 00:18:49.281
to guard against that.

00:18:49.942 --> 00:18:52.022
And also to, I believe, Michael's credit,

00:18:52.262 --> 00:18:56.203
he also was trying to fix it as well.

00:18:56.284 --> 00:18:57.365
And I think there was

00:18:57.805 --> 00:18:58.865
perhaps a commitment to

00:18:58.905 --> 00:19:00.846
ensure that if that did happen.

00:19:00.905 --> 00:19:02.826
So I think people are working against it,

00:19:02.866 --> 00:19:04.248
but I guess this is one of those things,

00:19:04.307 --> 00:19:05.268
it's a lesson learned and

00:19:05.288 --> 00:19:07.048
let's guard against it in the future.

00:19:08.246 --> 00:19:08.526
Yeah.

00:19:08.767 --> 00:19:08.946
Yeah.

00:19:08.967 --> 00:19:09.528
I mean,

00:19:09.627 --> 00:19:10.929
is there any way to guard against

00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:13.291
founders taking a big cut?

00:19:13.311 --> 00:19:15.354
I mean, I feel like now with crypto,

00:19:15.413 --> 00:19:17.276
we have founders taking a smaller cut,

00:19:17.757 --> 00:19:18.396
which is good.

00:19:18.416 --> 00:19:19.218
You know,

00:19:19.278 --> 00:19:21.941
maybe previously the average whatnot.

00:19:21.961 --> 00:19:23.522
I mean, every situation is so different,

00:19:23.563 --> 00:19:24.443
but maybe a normal cut.

00:19:25.164 --> 00:19:26.045
corporate startup,

00:19:26.546 --> 00:19:27.705
the founders might end up

00:19:27.766 --> 00:19:29.146
with half or a little bit

00:19:29.186 --> 00:19:31.888
less of the company in the long run.

00:19:32.828 --> 00:19:33.930
Maybe less if you end up

00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:35.190
actually like going public

00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:36.070
and stuff like that.

00:19:36.090 --> 00:19:37.411
I think in crypto,

00:19:37.612 --> 00:19:39.051
it's more common to see the

00:19:39.092 --> 00:19:41.773
founders taking like 15% or so.

00:19:42.794 --> 00:19:43.734
Although you may have like

00:19:43.894 --> 00:19:45.816
the actual founders at 15%

00:19:45.816 --> 00:19:47.656
and then the investors at

00:19:47.656 --> 00:19:49.258
15% and then like the early

00:19:49.317 --> 00:19:50.877
contributors at 15%.

00:19:50.877 --> 00:19:51.538
And now maybe you could

00:19:51.578 --> 00:19:52.839
argue that in some ways the

00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:53.619
founders have half

00:19:54.181 --> 00:19:55.561
if it's just a bigger definition,

00:19:55.582 --> 00:19:57.242
a wider definition of the word founders,

00:19:57.303 --> 00:19:58.804
but it seems like we're

00:19:58.824 --> 00:20:00.005
moving in the right direction, but I mean,

00:20:00.025 --> 00:20:01.144
will we ever get away from

00:20:01.726 --> 00:20:03.906
founders having 10 or 15%?

00:20:03.906 --> 00:20:05.407
And therefore that's enough

00:20:05.488 --> 00:20:06.489
that if they do something

00:20:06.528 --> 00:20:07.628
stupid in their personal life,

00:20:08.210 --> 00:20:08.890
it could tank,

00:20:09.651 --> 00:20:11.051
it could harm the whole project.

00:20:12.031 --> 00:20:13.413
i think just this comes down

00:20:13.452 --> 00:20:15.134
to value alignment so I

00:20:15.173 --> 00:20:16.535
think in the last cycle um

00:20:17.795 --> 00:20:19.056
it's quite common to see

00:20:19.276 --> 00:20:20.517
that traditional pie chart

00:20:21.436 --> 00:20:23.198
with the 15 advisors

00:20:23.278 --> 00:20:24.578
insiders and whatnot but

00:20:24.739 --> 00:20:26.980
what that really does it

00:20:27.060 --> 00:20:27.941
creates misaligned

00:20:27.961 --> 00:20:30.863
incentives because you're

00:20:30.923 --> 00:20:31.962
raising a lot of money up

00:20:32.022 --> 00:20:34.565
front and again we come

00:20:34.585 --> 00:20:36.246
back to the idea of accountability

00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:40.180
So if we are emitting or

00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:41.779
creating those tokens at

00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:43.740
the token generation event,

00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.461
and even with unlocks,

00:20:47.141 --> 00:20:49.461
which are traditionally, let's just say,

00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.061
I believe like one year or even less.

00:20:52.642 --> 00:20:54.561
If you look at traditional analogs,

00:20:54.662 --> 00:20:55.402
like most people,

00:20:55.982 --> 00:20:57.942
most founders don't have a

00:20:57.982 --> 00:20:59.002
lot of the equity vested

00:20:59.643 --> 00:21:01.223
until three or five years.

00:21:01.804 --> 00:21:02.624
So I think...

00:21:03.584 --> 00:21:06.644
if we start just

00:21:06.704 --> 00:21:07.845
re-examining how we can

00:21:07.904 --> 00:21:09.224
have more sustainable

00:21:09.285 --> 00:21:12.806
emissions and how we can

00:21:12.846 --> 00:21:13.665
align that with

00:21:13.685 --> 00:21:15.287
deliverables of projects

00:21:16.326 --> 00:21:18.708
again we can have better

00:21:18.768 --> 00:21:19.988
outcomes for industry

00:21:20.028 --> 00:21:20.627
because there's a lot of

00:21:20.667 --> 00:21:22.367
great ideas and there's a

00:21:22.407 --> 00:21:23.909
lot of capital floating

00:21:23.949 --> 00:21:25.808
around but I think a lot of

00:21:25.848 --> 00:21:28.069
people have been really burnt by the

00:21:30.470 --> 00:21:31.590
promises that people have

00:21:31.611 --> 00:21:32.471
just failed to deliver.

00:21:32.952 --> 00:21:35.855
And that creates real

00:21:35.996 --> 00:21:36.936
barriers to entry for

00:21:36.957 --> 00:21:37.857
people who are trying to do

00:21:37.877 --> 00:21:39.440
good things and as such

00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.143
can't raise capital because

00:21:42.182 --> 00:21:43.243
of these bad experiences.

00:21:44.363 --> 00:21:44.623
Yeah.

00:21:45.443 --> 00:21:45.884
Interesting.

00:21:46.443 --> 00:21:46.724
All right.

00:21:46.904 --> 00:21:48.486
Let's turn to the next story of the week.

00:21:49.226 --> 00:21:51.008
This one is another post on

00:21:51.208 --> 00:21:55.070
X and it's from A16Z Crypto

00:21:55.171 --> 00:21:56.511
from the former Andreessen

00:21:56.531 --> 00:21:58.012
Horowitz venture capital firm.

00:21:58.873 --> 00:22:01.515
And the post is interested

00:22:01.555 --> 00:22:02.695
in learning about DAOs.

00:22:03.036 --> 00:22:04.817
Here are some resources, a thread.

00:22:05.538 --> 00:22:06.558
So this thread,

00:22:06.838 --> 00:22:07.960
I'm not going to go through them all,

00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:08.881
but I just actually want to

00:22:08.921 --> 00:22:10.122
call people's attention to

00:22:10.162 --> 00:22:11.442
this thread because they've

00:22:11.482 --> 00:22:13.164
written a lot of really

00:22:13.345 --> 00:22:15.487
interesting articles about

00:22:15.767 --> 00:22:17.868
DAOs from different perspectives,

00:22:17.969 --> 00:22:20.592
ranging from research on

00:22:20.811 --> 00:22:22.653
experimenting with governance.

00:22:23.433 --> 00:22:24.355
Certainly one of the really

00:22:24.394 --> 00:22:25.816
interesting things we're doing with DAOs,

00:22:25.836 --> 00:22:26.477
you could say we're

00:22:26.517 --> 00:22:28.278
experimenting with organizations.

00:22:29.199 --> 00:22:31.300
or the governance of organizations,

00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:33.002
but also governance in general.

00:22:33.683 --> 00:22:36.967
The things we're learning about democracy,

00:22:37.027 --> 00:22:38.428
the things we're learning about voting,

00:22:38.468 --> 00:22:39.229
the things we're learning

00:22:39.288 --> 00:22:41.270
about how groups of people

00:22:41.731 --> 00:22:44.114
coordinate on a global

00:22:44.453 --> 00:22:46.175
scale digitally can be

00:22:46.215 --> 00:22:47.877
applied to any time we're

00:22:47.897 --> 00:22:49.199
trying to govern anything,

00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:51.540
not just organizations.

00:22:52.526 --> 00:22:53.946
And so I think that's one

00:22:53.987 --> 00:22:55.127
really interesting article.

00:22:55.708 --> 00:22:56.449
Relatedly,

00:22:56.669 --> 00:22:58.269
one article is about using DAOs

00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:01.392
to study political institutions at scale.

00:23:01.412 --> 00:23:04.634
So I think that's related and interesting.

00:23:05.294 --> 00:23:06.875
The effects of retroactive

00:23:06.934 --> 00:23:08.895
rewards on participating in

00:23:09.056 --> 00:23:10.958
online governance is a video.

00:23:12.117 --> 00:23:14.259
The DUNA, an oasis for DAOs,

00:23:14.398 --> 00:23:16.220
is an article about a legal

00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:18.621
entity called a DUNA that

00:23:18.661 --> 00:23:19.941
was created by some of

00:23:20.101 --> 00:23:23.343
ASICC's lawyers in Wyoming that goes live,

00:23:23.423 --> 00:23:24.323
I think, in a few days.

00:23:26.703 --> 00:23:28.865
And designing reward systems

00:23:28.924 --> 00:23:30.486
for Web3 governance.

00:23:31.413 --> 00:23:33.355
the evolution of decentralized governance.

00:23:33.415 --> 00:23:34.656
And then one I just wanted

00:23:34.717 --> 00:23:36.679
to call out in particular

00:23:37.078 --> 00:23:38.800
is called Machiavelli for DAOs,

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.142
Principles for Fixing

00:23:40.201 --> 00:23:41.343
Decentralized Governance.

00:23:42.163 --> 00:23:43.464
And I actually have not had

00:23:43.505 --> 00:23:44.346
the chance to read it yet.

00:23:44.425 --> 00:23:45.666
I have to admit the whole

00:23:45.807 --> 00:23:48.490
A16Z blog is in all caps

00:23:49.050 --> 00:23:51.051
and it is hard for me to read.

00:23:51.673 --> 00:23:52.874
And I actually sent an email

00:23:53.054 --> 00:23:54.295
one time to one of the authors, like, hey,

00:23:54.315 --> 00:23:55.215
do you realize your article

00:23:55.256 --> 00:23:57.958
was accidentally published all in,

00:23:58.378 --> 00:23:59.058
it's not all caps,

00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:02.021
it's every word is capitalized.

00:24:02.521 --> 00:24:03.623
It's just, I don't know,

00:24:03.762 --> 00:24:04.364
hard for me to read.

00:24:04.443 --> 00:24:05.044
So I haven't read it.

00:24:05.424 --> 00:24:07.807
But I love the idea of just saying,

00:24:07.826 --> 00:24:08.887
I think Machiavelli was

00:24:08.907 --> 00:24:10.028
someone who's known for being

00:24:10.628 --> 00:24:13.451
harsh and even cruel, but I think at least,

00:24:13.550 --> 00:24:14.531
especially from a deep

00:24:14.571 --> 00:24:15.873
philosophical perspective,

00:24:15.893 --> 00:24:17.114
I think it was trying to be

00:24:17.153 --> 00:24:20.076
very logical and rational about, hey,

00:24:20.136 --> 00:24:20.856
let's look at the

00:24:20.896 --> 00:24:22.077
incentives of the different

00:24:22.337 --> 00:24:23.318
people in the system.

00:24:23.798 --> 00:24:24.759
Let's look at how human

00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:25.780
behavior really works.

00:24:26.361 --> 00:24:27.541
And then let's design our

00:24:27.602 --> 00:24:30.345
systems to get the outcome that we want.

00:24:30.944 --> 00:24:32.105
And then some people would say, well,

00:24:32.144 --> 00:24:33.205
that's cruel.

00:24:33.625 --> 00:24:35.047
Why aren't you designing

00:24:35.106 --> 00:24:36.027
systems for more of a

00:24:36.067 --> 00:24:37.887
social good perspective or something?

00:24:38.587 --> 00:24:39.248
Although I think you could

00:24:39.288 --> 00:24:40.868
do that in a Machiavellian way too.

00:24:42.449 --> 00:24:43.710
So I'm looking forward to

00:24:43.769 --> 00:24:44.890
reading it in more detail

00:24:44.910 --> 00:24:45.671
and seeing how you can

00:24:45.691 --> 00:24:47.830
apply Machiavelli to DAOs.

00:24:49.432 --> 00:24:50.311
And again,

00:24:50.352 --> 00:24:51.512
just recommend people check out

00:24:51.913 --> 00:24:52.692
this thread if they're

00:24:52.712 --> 00:24:55.034
looking for more resources about DAOs.

00:24:55.834 --> 00:24:56.114
Arnold,

00:24:56.153 --> 00:24:57.174
anything that stood out to you

00:24:57.234 --> 00:24:58.494
about this thread or any of

00:24:58.575 --> 00:24:59.996
the articles they posted?

00:25:00.818 --> 00:25:01.359
Yeah, look,

00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:04.942
I love all the A16Z DAO governance stuff.

00:25:05.563 --> 00:25:07.644
I'm also a big follower of

00:25:07.805 --> 00:25:08.385
all the governance

00:25:08.425 --> 00:25:09.286
literature that comes out

00:25:09.326 --> 00:25:10.267
of Optimism as well.

00:25:10.948 --> 00:25:12.148
But one of the things that I

00:25:12.209 --> 00:25:14.471
find when I'm trying to DAO

00:25:14.510 --> 00:25:17.053
pill people is that a lot

00:25:17.073 --> 00:25:19.515
of this literature is quite dense.

00:25:20.588 --> 00:25:23.130
And for people who are embedded in,

00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:23.690
I guess,

00:25:24.711 --> 00:25:25.590
traditional thinking or

00:25:25.651 --> 00:25:27.211
traditional structures,

00:25:28.333 --> 00:25:30.973
my favorite go-to is an

00:25:31.114 --> 00:25:32.934
article that came from the

00:25:33.055 --> 00:25:34.375
World Economic Forum.

00:25:35.135 --> 00:25:37.175
It was published in January 2023.

00:25:37.957 --> 00:25:39.478
And they have a really good primer.

00:25:39.557 --> 00:25:43.679
And it's a good segue to illustrate that,

00:25:43.719 --> 00:25:43.940
hey,

00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:45.319
there are serious organizations

00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:46.661
thinking about DAOs.

00:25:47.642 --> 00:25:48.623
these are the problems that

00:25:48.722 --> 00:25:49.542
are identified.

00:25:49.623 --> 00:25:50.763
And that usually is a good

00:25:50.844 --> 00:25:54.145
precursor to then landing in like, hey,

00:25:54.226 --> 00:25:55.186
what should I read next?

00:25:55.227 --> 00:25:58.048
And then, yeah, going on to the A16Z,

00:25:58.588 --> 00:25:59.949
more hardcore theoretical stuff.

00:25:59.989 --> 00:26:03.791
So that's how I usually doubt people.

00:26:05.682 --> 00:26:06.324
I love that.

00:26:06.423 --> 00:26:08.625
And I remember talking about

00:26:08.684 --> 00:26:10.727
that World Economic Forum

00:26:10.767 --> 00:26:12.887
report on the show some time ago.

00:26:12.907 --> 00:26:15.951
And I'm looking at I think

00:26:15.971 --> 00:26:17.211
there may have been even more than one,

00:26:17.251 --> 00:26:18.092
but I just pulled it up

00:26:18.132 --> 00:26:19.012
while you were speaking.

00:26:19.413 --> 00:26:20.794
There's a one paper they

00:26:20.834 --> 00:26:22.154
wrote called Decentralized

00:26:22.255 --> 00:26:23.916
Autonomous Organization Toolkit.

00:26:24.396 --> 00:26:25.958
from January of 2023.

00:26:26.377 --> 00:26:28.779
And the contents are, what are DAOs?

00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:29.740
Why do they matter?

00:26:29.901 --> 00:26:30.560
How do they work?

00:26:30.681 --> 00:26:31.862
How are they governed?

00:26:31.942 --> 00:26:33.863
What are the legal structures and issues?

00:26:34.983 --> 00:26:35.904
This whole thing was written

00:26:35.984 --> 00:26:37.346
from a policy perspective.

00:26:37.385 --> 00:26:38.646
So the in conclusion is,

00:26:38.747 --> 00:26:39.126
what are their

00:26:39.146 --> 00:26:40.167
recommendations for

00:26:40.208 --> 00:26:42.108
governments and for other policy?

00:26:43.210 --> 00:26:45.111
But yeah, really interesting.

00:26:45.471 --> 00:26:46.332
I never would have guessed

00:26:46.392 --> 00:26:47.633
and I had forgotten that

00:26:47.792 --> 00:26:49.013
the World Economic Forum

00:26:49.074 --> 00:26:49.913
could publish such an

00:26:49.973 --> 00:26:50.914
interesting and useful

00:26:51.596 --> 00:26:51.938
report,

00:26:52.038 --> 00:26:54.044
but I think they clearly have done so.

00:26:54.285 --> 00:26:56.070
So that's a good recommendation.

00:26:56.090 --> 00:26:57.915
Yeah, I think like

00:26:59.894 --> 00:27:00.555
The fact that they're

00:27:00.576 --> 00:27:02.396
thinking about this already,

00:27:03.637 --> 00:27:04.939
I personally believe that

00:27:05.679 --> 00:27:07.740
DAOs have an end game in

00:27:08.161 --> 00:27:09.801
civics and public policy.

00:27:10.502 --> 00:27:11.603
All the work and research

00:27:11.623 --> 00:27:12.364
that we're doing now and

00:27:12.403 --> 00:27:13.325
the experimentation,

00:27:13.525 --> 00:27:14.505
I think eventually will

00:27:14.525 --> 00:27:16.686
trickle down through to

00:27:17.007 --> 00:27:18.048
local and federal governments.

00:27:19.088 --> 00:27:22.490
I don't know on what timescale, but yeah,

00:27:22.530 --> 00:27:23.392
that's what I guess

00:27:23.571 --> 00:27:24.491
motivates me to do a lot of

00:27:24.512 --> 00:27:25.133
the work that we're doing.

00:27:26.356 --> 00:27:27.117
It's really interesting.

00:27:27.157 --> 00:27:27.438
You know,

00:27:27.739 --> 00:27:29.300
when I think about like

00:27:29.540 --> 00:27:31.103
governance in my life,

00:27:31.884 --> 00:27:34.287
I've got as an American,

00:27:34.307 --> 00:27:37.509
I think most people have the same stack,

00:27:37.569 --> 00:27:38.731
which is you've got your city,

00:27:38.791 --> 00:27:40.733
your state and your federal government.

00:27:41.315 --> 00:27:42.876
And each of those will have

00:27:42.916 --> 00:27:44.778
an election up to once a year.

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:45.900
Of course,

00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:47.061
there are other ways of

00:27:47.261 --> 00:27:48.644
participating other than

00:27:48.763 --> 00:27:50.125
just voting in the election.

00:27:50.885 --> 00:27:52.307
And then I think many people,

00:27:52.508 --> 00:27:53.750
myself included at least,

00:27:53.930 --> 00:27:55.010
are involved in governing

00:27:55.131 --> 00:27:57.054
some nonprofits or just

00:27:57.074 --> 00:27:58.836
like community-based organizations.

00:27:59.256 --> 00:28:02.160
You know, we have on the island I live on,

00:28:04.300 --> 00:28:05.801
We have an unofficial

00:28:05.862 --> 00:28:06.942
homeowners association

00:28:06.981 --> 00:28:08.682
effectively where I'm on

00:28:08.722 --> 00:28:10.223
the committee and we make

00:28:10.263 --> 00:28:11.503
decisions together and then

00:28:11.523 --> 00:28:13.285
a couple of nonprofits I'm involved in.

00:28:13.305 --> 00:28:16.666
And it all feels relatively

00:28:16.747 --> 00:28:18.307
manageable because there's

00:28:18.428 --> 00:28:20.989
not a lot of it, right?

00:28:21.048 --> 00:28:22.148
It's like these three

00:28:22.589 --> 00:28:24.390
geographic groups and then

00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:26.550
maybe a few nonprofits and other orgs.

00:28:27.092 --> 00:28:28.132
I find the challenge that

00:28:28.172 --> 00:28:29.492
I've had in the DAO space

00:28:29.633 --> 00:28:30.593
is that you end up wanting

00:28:30.653 --> 00:28:31.534
to be part of a lot.

00:28:32.233 --> 00:28:34.895
Because the cost of entry

00:28:34.915 --> 00:28:36.757
and the cost to participate

00:28:36.797 --> 00:28:38.798
at some level is so low.

00:28:39.019 --> 00:28:41.039
You just go buy an NFT or

00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:42.580
buy a few tokens or just

00:28:42.661 --> 00:28:43.761
join a Discord or hit a

00:28:43.801 --> 00:28:44.642
button or whatever it is.

00:28:45.002 --> 00:28:46.143
Now you're part of an organization.

00:28:46.202 --> 00:28:47.223
Now you have voting rights.

00:28:47.604 --> 00:28:50.746
And that clearly demands a

00:28:50.885 --> 00:28:52.366
new approach to how we

00:28:52.406 --> 00:28:53.867
think about the things we

00:28:53.907 --> 00:28:55.269
govern in our lives and how

00:28:55.288 --> 00:28:56.269
to keep track of them,

00:28:56.849 --> 00:28:58.751
how to participate in them efficiently.

00:28:59.592 --> 00:29:01.352
And it does seem clear that

00:29:01.372 --> 00:29:03.452
that will be applied to

00:29:03.553 --> 00:29:05.012
these traditional forms of

00:29:05.073 --> 00:29:06.614
governance and that that

00:29:06.653 --> 00:29:07.594
might actually allow us to

00:29:07.634 --> 00:29:08.874
participate in many more

00:29:08.973 --> 00:29:10.394
forms of governance in our lives,

00:29:10.913 --> 00:29:11.914
even the traditional form.

00:29:11.934 --> 00:29:12.575
I mean,

00:29:12.855 --> 00:29:16.895
once city and state governments and

00:29:17.976 --> 00:29:19.576
your average day to day

00:29:19.655 --> 00:29:21.257
nonprofit or community organization,

00:29:21.517 --> 00:29:22.856
certainly once they're all on chain,

00:29:23.376 --> 00:29:23.977
now they get to take

00:29:23.997 --> 00:29:24.916
advantage of all the cool

00:29:24.936 --> 00:29:26.178
stuff we're building for

00:29:26.577 --> 00:29:27.917
DAOs and on chain governance.

00:29:28.818 --> 00:29:30.384
And that should make them

00:29:30.444 --> 00:29:31.568
easier and more pleasurable

00:29:31.689 --> 00:29:32.471
to be a part of.

00:29:34.468 --> 00:29:35.288
Yeah, no, for sure.

00:29:35.328 --> 00:29:38.391
I think the fact that we can align,

00:29:38.411 --> 00:29:40.952
at the moment, cultural interests.

00:29:41.252 --> 00:29:44.316
So if you're involved in artists, manga,

00:29:45.256 --> 00:29:45.737
music,

00:29:46.717 --> 00:29:49.779
these are all great petri dishes

00:29:49.940 --> 00:29:52.382
for how we can sort of see what works,

00:29:52.402 --> 00:29:52.961
what doesn't.

00:29:53.962 --> 00:29:55.003
And yeah,

00:29:55.023 --> 00:29:56.345
I think this is a great time for

00:29:56.384 --> 00:29:58.385
experimentation, and we really want

00:29:59.227 --> 00:30:00.468
to sort of enable people to

00:30:00.587 --> 00:30:01.367
start these communities.

00:30:01.428 --> 00:30:02.327
And we have them already.

00:30:02.548 --> 00:30:04.849
Like we have little skating skate clubs,

00:30:05.609 --> 00:30:08.790
or if you're part of a local co-op,

00:30:08.931 --> 00:30:09.811
even like a gardening

00:30:09.872 --> 00:30:11.531
center where you have a community garden,

00:30:11.732 --> 00:30:12.893
you manage finances,

00:30:13.353 --> 00:30:14.193
you're trying to work out

00:30:14.213 --> 00:30:15.773
who gets the next plot of land.

00:30:17.275 --> 00:30:19.195
All these things apply to

00:30:19.816 --> 00:30:21.797
have an analog to a type of DAO.

00:30:21.876 --> 00:30:22.977
So yeah,

00:30:23.017 --> 00:30:24.198
I'm just really excited to see all

00:30:24.218 --> 00:30:25.057
the different types of

00:30:25.459 --> 00:30:26.199
things that manifest.

00:30:27.125 --> 00:30:27.444
Cool.

00:30:28.145 --> 00:30:28.425
All right.

00:30:28.645 --> 00:30:30.107
Turning to the next story of the week.

00:30:30.887 --> 00:30:34.070
This one is from altcoinbuzz.io.

00:30:34.211 --> 00:30:37.153
And I'm noticing the lowbrow

00:30:38.355 --> 00:30:39.476
nature of a lot of the

00:30:39.516 --> 00:30:42.018
brands we've been quoting from today.

00:30:42.337 --> 00:30:43.459
But hopefully they're reliable.

00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:44.539
Either way,

00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:46.721
I know there's some truth to this story.

00:30:46.761 --> 00:30:47.823
I've seen it other places.

00:30:48.584 --> 00:30:50.045
The headline is Julian

00:30:50.085 --> 00:30:51.946
Assange freed with 11k ETH.

00:30:53.327 --> 00:30:54.950
Assange DAO's victory.

00:30:55.490 --> 00:30:55.750
Actually,

00:30:55.770 --> 00:30:56.791
there's things here I don't know

00:30:56.832 --> 00:30:57.973
if I can trust and things

00:30:58.013 --> 00:30:58.914
that I know I can trust.

00:30:58.974 --> 00:31:00.196
And so I want to dig into those.

00:31:00.277 --> 00:31:02.358
But the subtitle or the

00:31:02.439 --> 00:31:04.241
subheader is Julian Assange,

00:31:04.281 --> 00:31:05.262
the founder of WikiLeaks,

00:31:05.303 --> 00:31:06.585
has finally achieved freedom,

00:31:07.045 --> 00:31:08.386
largely due to the generous

00:31:08.426 --> 00:31:09.407
contributions made by

00:31:09.468 --> 00:31:10.630
supporters to the Assange DAO.

00:31:11.009 --> 00:31:11.230
OK,

00:31:11.589 --> 00:31:13.010
here's the part that definitely is true,

00:31:13.271 --> 00:31:14.432
is that Julian Assange

00:31:14.551 --> 00:31:15.792
reached a plea deal with

00:31:15.833 --> 00:31:16.433
the United States

00:31:16.493 --> 00:31:17.835
government a few days ago,

00:31:18.095 --> 00:31:18.755
maybe yesterday.

00:31:18.775 --> 00:31:19.375
I'm not sure.

00:31:19.756 --> 00:31:20.276
Recently,

00:31:21.217 --> 00:31:23.758
where he basically he's pleading

00:31:23.798 --> 00:31:26.599
guilty and his plea deal

00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:28.240
was he only has to serve

00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:29.402
the time he already served

00:31:29.521 --> 00:31:31.242
in jail in the UK awaiting

00:31:31.503 --> 00:31:32.943
the decision on his extradition.

00:31:33.865 --> 00:31:37.047
And so effectively now he's free.

00:31:37.446 --> 00:31:37.807
It's over.

00:31:38.988 --> 00:31:40.249
The part about this article

00:31:40.328 --> 00:31:41.829
that even the article says

00:31:41.849 --> 00:31:44.011
it doesn't know for sure.

00:31:44.031 --> 00:31:45.272
So I'm surprised that the

00:31:45.292 --> 00:31:46.673
headline makes it sound so

00:31:46.733 --> 00:31:49.275
confident is actually

00:31:49.536 --> 00:31:51.916
someone posted on X saying

00:31:52.297 --> 00:31:54.078
time for the organization

00:31:54.159 --> 00:31:55.720
that raised all this ETH

00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:57.320
and supposedly was helping

00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:58.801
free him to tell us what

00:31:58.821 --> 00:31:59.521
they've been up to this

00:31:59.541 --> 00:32:00.482
whole time because we have

00:32:00.522 --> 00:32:01.743
no freaking clue.

00:32:01.844 --> 00:32:03.005
And I brought this up on the

00:32:03.025 --> 00:32:04.065
show a couple of months ago, too.

00:32:05.886 --> 00:32:06.267
tens,

00:32:06.346 --> 00:32:07.367
hundreds of millions of dollars

00:32:07.827 --> 00:32:09.189
raised to this legal fund.

00:32:09.689 --> 00:32:11.150
And there's no transparency.

00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:12.510
No one knows who's in charge.

00:32:12.671 --> 00:32:13.051
No one.

00:32:13.071 --> 00:32:14.593
I mean, maybe someone does, actually.

00:32:14.633 --> 00:32:15.933
If you do, obviously, please tell us.

00:32:16.314 --> 00:32:17.815
But there's been no

00:32:17.894 --> 00:32:19.415
transparency as to where

00:32:19.435 --> 00:32:20.596
all this money went and how

00:32:20.656 --> 00:32:21.356
it's being spent.

00:32:21.657 --> 00:32:22.577
And so I think, actually,

00:32:22.617 --> 00:32:26.461
we have no clue if this

00:32:26.461 --> 00:32:29.063
16,593 Ethereum had

00:32:29.262 --> 00:32:30.864
anything to do with freeing Assange.

00:32:30.923 --> 00:32:31.625
I sure hope so.

00:32:31.644 --> 00:32:33.246
I think I contributed to it.

00:32:33.266 --> 00:32:33.286
I

00:32:34.385 --> 00:32:35.366
contributed to some stuff

00:32:35.386 --> 00:32:36.906
like that so I'm really

00:32:36.946 --> 00:32:38.567
curious to see what we find

00:32:38.708 --> 00:32:40.548
out in the coming weeks but

00:32:40.568 --> 00:32:41.528
I wouldn't be surprised if

00:32:41.548 --> 00:32:42.328
there ends up being some

00:32:42.368 --> 00:32:43.970
kind of conspiracy here you

00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:45.590
give someone that kind of

00:32:45.631 --> 00:32:47.891
money with no oversight

00:32:47.911 --> 00:32:50.952
even if it's on chain and

00:32:51.012 --> 00:32:52.952
it's just and actually I

00:32:53.012 --> 00:32:55.794
think I think we know that

00:32:55.933 --> 00:32:57.535
a lot of it was spent I

00:32:57.555 --> 00:32:58.515
think we just have no clue

00:32:58.535 --> 00:33:00.355
where it went where did it

00:33:00.516 --> 00:33:01.876
go yeah for sure

00:33:03.117 --> 00:33:06.361
So I think, well, firstly, let's just,

00:33:06.741 --> 00:33:07.742
I guess, celebrate the win.

00:33:07.982 --> 00:33:11.227
So if Assange Dow actually

00:33:11.326 --> 00:33:13.568
did contribute to...

00:33:15.801 --> 00:33:17.103
Julian Assange's release

00:33:17.383 --> 00:33:19.644
because let's just say that

00:33:19.983 --> 00:33:21.023
they knew he had the

00:33:21.064 --> 00:33:23.765
capital to fight them

00:33:23.865 --> 00:33:25.566
legally indefinitely.

00:33:25.586 --> 00:33:27.886
That's a really interesting

00:33:28.446 --> 00:33:29.646
example of how

00:33:29.747 --> 00:33:31.087
decentralized coordination

00:33:31.647 --> 00:33:32.688
can work in our favor.

00:33:34.148 --> 00:33:36.069
Now that it's achieved its primary goal,

00:33:37.690 --> 00:33:38.671
this is really interesting

00:33:38.750 --> 00:33:39.590
because DAOs are

00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:42.721
in permanent structures.

00:33:43.500 --> 00:33:46.902
So the question is, how do they wind down?

00:33:46.922 --> 00:33:51.203
How do they report on where

00:33:51.223 --> 00:33:52.044
the money was spent?

00:33:52.163 --> 00:33:53.184
Maybe they couldn't report

00:33:53.845 --> 00:33:55.164
on how they were fighting

00:33:55.224 --> 00:33:56.165
or doing certain things,

00:33:56.246 --> 00:33:56.986
because that could have

00:33:57.026 --> 00:33:59.007
jeopardized the legal case.

00:33:59.857 --> 00:34:02.538
But let's try and be

00:34:02.578 --> 00:34:04.538
optimistic in the sense

00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.440
that they will have some

00:34:07.460 --> 00:34:08.481
sort of transparency.

00:34:08.541 --> 00:34:10.121
They will use the funds to

00:34:11.041 --> 00:34:13.722
provide a breakdown and

00:34:13.802 --> 00:34:15.523
then wind it down in a way

00:34:15.603 --> 00:34:17.704
that gives the company

00:34:18.164 --> 00:34:19.043
additional credibility.

00:34:19.224 --> 00:34:24.106
Because if they don't, we don't want that.

00:34:25.005 --> 00:34:25.326
Yeah,

00:34:25.525 --> 00:34:27.146
maybe tens of millions of dollars

00:34:27.226 --> 00:34:27.766
potentially

00:34:28.601 --> 00:34:29.681
misused but you're right we

00:34:29.701 --> 00:34:30.822
should assume the best I

00:34:30.862 --> 00:34:33.021
just I don't know I mean

00:34:33.041 --> 00:34:33.922
should we really assume the

00:34:33.963 --> 00:34:35.663
best I just feel I feel

00:34:35.702 --> 00:34:37.123
like we get burned a lot by

00:34:37.164 --> 00:34:39.884
doing that um and is what's

00:34:40.103 --> 00:34:41.144
is there really an argument

00:34:41.184 --> 00:34:42.864
why they couldn't have been

00:34:42.885 --> 00:34:44.045
transparent this whole time

00:34:44.646 --> 00:34:45.786
like what tell it like

00:34:45.865 --> 00:34:46.985
telling the world we paid

00:34:47.045 --> 00:34:49.306
this law firm to to go

00:34:49.347 --> 00:34:50.608
fight for assange is going

00:34:50.628 --> 00:34:51.588
to cause a problem for the

00:34:51.628 --> 00:34:54.509
lawsuit I just find that to

00:34:54.548 --> 00:34:55.268
be a bit of a stretch

00:34:57.597 --> 00:34:58.597
we don't know we can

00:34:58.657 --> 00:35:00.659
speculate who knows what

00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:02.621
hands were greased um who

00:35:02.641 --> 00:35:03.722
knows what strategies

00:35:03.882 --> 00:35:06.043
needed to be in place um

00:35:06.284 --> 00:35:07.224
maybe they'll make a

00:35:07.304 --> 00:35:08.606
documentary and a movie out

00:35:08.646 --> 00:35:11.748
of it and maybe from that

00:35:11.989 --> 00:35:13.429
will go towards fighting

00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:16.672
you know um other activists

00:35:16.793 --> 00:35:18.094
who deserve not to be in jail

00:35:18.938 --> 00:35:19.159
Yeah.

00:35:20.179 --> 00:35:20.420
Yeah.

00:35:20.539 --> 00:35:20.980
Makes sense.

00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:22.661
You know, all this reminds me too, that,

00:35:22.681 --> 00:35:24.181
you know, and we used to,

00:35:24.402 --> 00:35:25.222
I used to talk about this a

00:35:25.282 --> 00:35:28.284
lot on the show two years ago was we, we,

00:35:30.126 --> 00:35:31.527
we hear about, Oh,

00:35:31.907 --> 00:35:33.809
like Assange Dow raised whatever,

00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:37.070
10,000 ETH, but then is it really a debt?

00:35:37.831 --> 00:35:40.092
And at the time, especially, but even now,

00:35:40.112 --> 00:35:41.052
you know,

00:35:41.072 --> 00:35:43.514
a lot of times people raise money into,

00:35:43.534 --> 00:35:44.755
let's say a juice box,

00:35:44.795 --> 00:35:45.596
especially at the time.

00:35:45.635 --> 00:35:46.416
Although I think people are

00:35:46.577 --> 00:35:48.418
certainly still using juice box, but

00:35:48.697 --> 00:35:49.838
You can set up a juice box

00:35:49.878 --> 00:35:50.780
so that all the money just

00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:51.460
gets sent to me.

00:35:52.059 --> 00:35:52.280
Right.

00:35:52.380 --> 00:35:53.300
And so just the fact that

00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:54.181
you're on juice box and

00:35:54.202 --> 00:35:55.842
saying raising money for Assange now,

00:35:56.182 --> 00:35:56.983
that is not enough

00:35:57.043 --> 00:35:58.164
information to know that

00:35:58.184 --> 00:36:00.346
you can trust where the money is going.

00:36:00.746 --> 00:36:00.947
You know,

00:36:00.967 --> 00:36:02.007
you've really got to do your due

00:36:02.027 --> 00:36:02.967
diligence and know what

00:36:02.987 --> 00:36:03.829
you're getting into.

00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:07.590
And so, you know, just I mean, I'm curious,

00:36:08.150 --> 00:36:08.391
you know,

00:36:08.452 --> 00:36:09.972
supposedly there was a multi-sig.

00:36:11.206 --> 00:36:13.106
Who was on the multi-sig?

00:36:13.188 --> 00:36:14.248
And even if it's a multi-sig

00:36:14.288 --> 00:36:14.889
of three people,

00:36:15.188 --> 00:36:16.570
should they ever have called that a DAO?

00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:17.951
Was that really a DAO?

00:36:17.990 --> 00:36:18.572
Or were you just giving

00:36:18.592 --> 00:36:19.932
money to a foundation that

00:36:19.952 --> 00:36:22.014
was going to... Just

00:36:22.034 --> 00:36:22.934
because it's in crypto,

00:36:22.954 --> 00:36:23.976
it doesn't mean it's a DAO.

00:36:24.695 --> 00:36:25.396
Yeah, that's true.

00:36:25.836 --> 00:36:26.077
Actually,

00:36:26.097 --> 00:36:27.579
that reminds me of something that

00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:30.681
I read recently,

00:36:30.701 --> 00:36:31.842
maybe in the last week or so.

00:36:31.922 --> 00:36:32.943
And I think it was to do

00:36:33.003 --> 00:36:36.666
with the Indian COVID Relief Fund.

00:36:36.726 --> 00:36:38.146
And a lot of money was donated there.

00:36:39.016 --> 00:36:41.297
um to that fund to help um

00:36:42.378 --> 00:36:44.679
india and one of the things

00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.978
that was interesting is

00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.280
that in order to sort of

00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:50.760
promote transparency they

00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:52.842
employed one of like one of

00:36:52.862 --> 00:36:53.882
the big three accounting

00:36:53.922 --> 00:36:56.083
firms kpmg or someone else

00:36:56.882 --> 00:36:58.664
ey and they have a report

00:36:58.704 --> 00:36:59.864
that is published on a

00:36:59.923 --> 00:37:01.864
monthly basis to

00:37:01.965 --> 00:37:03.806
demonstrate where the money

00:37:03.846 --> 00:37:04.445
is being spent

00:37:05.286 --> 00:37:07.449
So I think that's a really, if it's true,

00:37:08.309 --> 00:37:09.170
please fact check me.

00:37:09.652 --> 00:37:10.753
But I think that's like a

00:37:10.793 --> 00:37:12.215
really good initiative when

00:37:13.115 --> 00:37:14.737
big fundraisers like this happen.

00:37:15.518 --> 00:37:16.940
And yeah,

00:37:16.981 --> 00:37:18.141
people can see how the money is

00:37:18.181 --> 00:37:18.862
being allocated.

00:37:19.985 --> 00:37:20.144
Yep.

00:37:21.273 --> 00:37:22.914
All right, let's turn to the next story.

00:37:23.695 --> 00:37:25.317
This one is from the Dow Times,

00:37:25.456 --> 00:37:26.717
which I highly recommend.

00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:29.820
And the story is, the headline is,

00:37:30.561 --> 00:37:33.003
Hedera Abandons Decentralization,

00:37:33.344 --> 00:37:35.985
Removes Community Nodes from Roadmap.

00:37:37.126 --> 00:37:37.387
Okay,

00:37:37.447 --> 00:37:41.771
so Hedera is a very math-oriented

00:37:41.911 --> 00:37:42.331
blockchain.

00:37:42.411 --> 00:37:43.532
They're all very math-oriented,

00:37:43.572 --> 00:37:44.353
but Hedera is like a

00:37:44.652 --> 00:37:46.414
supposedly super high-tech blockchain.

00:37:46.474 --> 00:37:47.936
It's faster, it's different.

00:37:49.105 --> 00:37:50.527
uses a different underlying

00:37:50.567 --> 00:37:52.068
consensus technology or at

00:37:52.088 --> 00:37:54.530
least data technology called a DAG,

00:37:54.851 --> 00:37:56.813
a directed axillic graph.

00:37:57.693 --> 00:37:59.295
And it's been in development

00:37:59.315 --> 00:37:59.956
for a long time.

00:37:59.976 --> 00:38:03.300
I don't know if they get a lot of usage.

00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:05.242
I might hold some of the tokens myself.

00:38:05.262 --> 00:38:06.063
I think I've always been a

00:38:06.083 --> 00:38:07.824
little bit optimistic about

00:38:07.844 --> 00:38:09.065
what they might be able to achieve.

00:38:10.387 --> 00:38:10.887
But anyways,

00:38:10.927 --> 00:38:13.648
the story is about how today

00:38:14.108 --> 00:38:15.349
the network is operated by

00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:17.530
31 multinational

00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:19.150
corporations hand selected

00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:20.632
by the Hedera Foundation.

00:38:21.612 --> 00:38:22.813
And they had on their

00:38:22.853 --> 00:38:24.213
roadmap until recently that

00:38:24.333 --> 00:38:25.554
soon they were going to

00:38:25.614 --> 00:38:28.516
introduce many more nodes

00:38:28.695 --> 00:38:30.335
run by the community as

00:38:30.416 --> 00:38:31.376
opposed to these

00:38:31.476 --> 00:38:32.938
multinational corporations.

00:38:33.878 --> 00:38:34.918
and and I just put the

00:38:34.938 --> 00:38:36.139
community in air quotes

00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:37.219
because I think that's you

00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:37.860
know it depends how you

00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:38.800
define it I mean those

00:38:38.922 --> 00:38:39.762
corporations are part of

00:38:39.782 --> 00:38:42.043
the community too um but um

00:38:42.264 --> 00:38:43.103
clearly they were planning

00:38:43.164 --> 00:38:44.684
on giving control over the

00:38:44.704 --> 00:38:45.746
network to a wider group of

00:38:45.766 --> 00:38:47.286
people and they removed it

00:38:47.327 --> 00:38:49.228
from the roadmap so of

00:38:49.268 --> 00:38:50.009
course we don't have all

00:38:50.048 --> 00:38:51.610
the details maybe it's

00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:52.409
going to go back on the

00:38:52.429 --> 00:38:54.771
roadmap tomorrow but what's

00:38:54.811 --> 00:38:55.693
interesting to me about

00:38:55.733 --> 00:38:58.934
this is just a question of isn't

00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:00.940
running something

00:39:01.141 --> 00:39:02.340
collaboratively on a

00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:04.041
blockchain between 31

00:39:04.041 --> 00:39:05.583
multinational corporations,

00:39:06.123 --> 00:39:07.644
actually a huge step in the

00:39:07.684 --> 00:39:08.264
right direction.

00:39:08.885 --> 00:39:09.985
That's actually way more

00:39:10.045 --> 00:39:12.327
decentralized than one

00:39:12.567 --> 00:39:14.548
company running an entire system,

00:39:14.588 --> 00:39:15.608
which is how everything

00:39:15.688 --> 00:39:16.929
always worked until now.

00:39:16.949 --> 00:39:18.670
I mean, yeah, you could argue, yeah,

00:39:18.911 --> 00:39:19.532
it's one company,

00:39:19.572 --> 00:39:20.431
but there's like five

00:39:20.891 --> 00:39:22.253
intermediaries and there's

00:39:22.293 --> 00:39:23.014
reconciliation.

00:39:23.434 --> 00:39:23.893
Yeah,

00:39:24.014 --> 00:39:25.614
all of that is because we can't trust

00:39:25.655 --> 00:39:26.396
that one company,

00:39:26.476 --> 00:39:27.376
so you need all this other

00:39:27.396 --> 00:39:27.936
stuff going on.

00:39:28.817 --> 00:39:29.538
Spreading out,

00:39:30.958 --> 00:39:32.300
think of the blockchain as

00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:33.661
an alternative to AWS.

00:39:34.141 --> 00:39:35.722
It's obviously not exactly that,

00:39:35.782 --> 00:39:37.103
but in this case,

00:39:37.182 --> 00:39:37.963
it's either you're running

00:39:37.983 --> 00:39:40.045
the whole system in AWS or

00:39:40.085 --> 00:39:41.547
you have 31 different

00:39:41.606 --> 00:39:43.527
companies running it using

00:39:43.568 --> 00:39:45.108
a consensus mechanism on a

00:39:45.150 --> 00:39:47.530
blockchain where everything, by the way,

00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:48.992
can be validated by anyone

00:39:49.012 --> 00:39:50.132
who wants to use the blockchain.

00:39:50.193 --> 00:39:51.054
It's just the 31

00:39:51.054 --> 00:39:52.315
organizations are the ones

00:39:53.076 --> 00:39:54.476
choosing the transactions

00:39:54.556 --> 00:39:55.657
and building the blocks and

00:39:55.717 --> 00:39:56.318
stuff like that.

00:39:57.699 --> 00:39:59.880
To me, that's actually quite good.

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:01.001
That's what I wanted to

00:40:01.021 --> 00:40:01.963
highlight about this is

00:40:01.983 --> 00:40:03.643
that it's actually there's

00:40:03.664 --> 00:40:04.304
a lot of power.

00:40:04.324 --> 00:40:05.905
I think same goes for Solana, by the way.

00:40:05.925 --> 00:40:06.847
And I don't remember.

00:40:06.867 --> 00:40:08.369
I've never been as into Solana.

00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:09.929
I certainly hold the tokens.

00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:11.010
I'm a believer,

00:40:11.030 --> 00:40:13.432
at least for the past year or two,

00:40:13.492 --> 00:40:14.393
if I wasn't before.

00:40:14.414 --> 00:40:16.456
But Solana, too,

00:40:16.496 --> 00:40:17.797
has run on a relatively

00:40:17.836 --> 00:40:19.639
small number of nodes,

00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:20.960
probably Binance Smart Chain, too.

00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:21.739
But I think it's still...

00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.942
30 or 100 or a few hundred.

00:40:25.282 --> 00:40:26.583
And that's orders of

00:40:26.663 --> 00:40:27.463
magnitude more

00:40:27.483 --> 00:40:29.304
decentralization than any

00:40:29.443 --> 00:40:30.405
piece of software that came

00:40:30.445 --> 00:40:31.204
before the blockchain.

00:40:31.784 --> 00:40:33.925
So that's the point I wanted to make.

00:40:33.985 --> 00:40:34.565
But Arnold,

00:40:35.126 --> 00:40:36.186
if you want to respond to that

00:40:36.226 --> 00:40:37.648
or anything about this story.

00:40:38.688 --> 00:40:38.927
Yeah,

00:40:39.007 --> 00:40:42.050
I don't know much about Hedera

00:40:42.070 --> 00:40:42.789
specifically,

00:40:43.110 --> 00:40:45.690
but to your point on 30

00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:47.132
nodes is better than one,

00:40:47.211 --> 00:40:48.753
I totally agree because

00:40:50.367 --> 00:40:52.327
What that gives us is the

00:40:52.367 --> 00:40:53.949
ability to verify that the

00:40:53.969 --> 00:40:54.869
information that's being

00:40:54.989 --> 00:40:57.451
put out there is indeed accurate.

00:40:58.471 --> 00:41:01.092
And that goes for any type of data, right?

00:41:01.672 --> 00:41:03.653
So just using, I guess,

00:41:04.454 --> 00:41:05.614
my product as an example,

00:41:06.375 --> 00:41:08.556
I have to index a lot of

00:41:08.715 --> 00:41:11.157
on-chain proposal data, voting data,

00:41:11.858 --> 00:41:14.318
and I need to service that to my users.

00:41:17.318 --> 00:41:17.577
you know,

00:41:17.757 --> 00:41:19.858
what's stopping me from maybe

00:41:19.958 --> 00:41:20.878
injecting the wrong

00:41:20.918 --> 00:41:21.920
sentiment and whatnot.

00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:24.079
I'm theoretically proving

00:41:24.581 --> 00:41:25.521
and aggregating all that

00:41:25.541 --> 00:41:27.061
information from the blockchain.

00:41:27.521 --> 00:41:28.161
And in theory,

00:41:28.561 --> 00:41:29.422
anyone else should be able

00:41:29.442 --> 00:41:30.563
to reproduce that and

00:41:30.922 --> 00:41:31.983
provide a similar proof.

00:41:32.943 --> 00:41:34.384
So even if it's not

00:41:34.463 --> 00:41:35.704
decentralized in the sense

00:41:35.764 --> 00:41:38.164
that there's 100 nodes or 200,

00:41:38.164 --> 00:41:39.346
as long as there's more

00:41:39.385 --> 00:41:41.045
than one actor being able

00:41:41.085 --> 00:41:43.507
to sufficiently prove the

00:41:43.567 --> 00:41:44.728
authenticity of that data,

00:41:44.867 --> 00:41:45.588
I think it's a good thing.

00:41:46.451 --> 00:41:46.610
Yep.

00:41:47.090 --> 00:41:47.251
Yep.

00:41:47.711 --> 00:41:48.012
Love it.

00:41:49.371 --> 00:41:49.572
All right.

00:41:49.791 --> 00:41:52.554
Let's do one more story for the week.

00:41:52.653 --> 00:41:54.213
I've got a pick from the two

00:41:54.233 --> 00:41:55.655
I had on my list.

00:41:56.574 --> 00:41:59.657
Let's do this article from

00:42:00.117 --> 00:42:03.237
friends with benefits, FWB dot help.

00:42:03.998 --> 00:42:05.518
I think that's friends with benefits.

00:42:06.699 --> 00:42:07.679
Yeah.

00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.021
Yeah.

00:42:08.260 --> 00:42:09.320
Friends with benefit websites.

00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:09.541
That's,

00:42:09.581 --> 00:42:13.083
this is their blog and by Austin Roby.

00:42:13.822 --> 00:42:15.264
The headline of the article is, uh,

00:42:16.166 --> 00:42:18.128
what co-ops and DAOs can

00:42:18.168 --> 00:42:19.009
learn from each other.

00:42:19.028 --> 00:42:21.771
The best framework for

00:42:21.831 --> 00:42:22.992
coordinating and making a

00:42:23.032 --> 00:42:24.253
difference may not be a

00:42:24.333 --> 00:42:25.855
choice between the two models,

00:42:25.914 --> 00:42:27.175
but a blend of both.

00:42:28.056 --> 00:42:28.737
So we actually,

00:42:28.797 --> 00:42:29.737
Arnold and I happened to be

00:42:29.878 --> 00:42:31.679
on a different DAO related

00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.161
call earlier today where

00:42:34.181 --> 00:42:37.244
the topic came up of co-ops and DAOs.

00:42:37.965 --> 00:42:38.125
And...

00:42:40.447 --> 00:42:40.668
You know,

00:42:40.688 --> 00:42:41.989
the point I was making earlier

00:42:42.090 --> 00:42:44.496
was similar, I think,

00:42:44.536 --> 00:42:45.637
to what's in this article,

00:42:45.697 --> 00:42:47.623
which is DAOs and co-ops

00:42:47.663 --> 00:42:48.864
are two different things.

00:42:50.179 --> 00:42:51.599
But sometimes you have a DAO

00:42:51.619 --> 00:42:52.639
that is a co-op and

00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:54.900
sometimes you have a co-op that is a DAO.

00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:56.862
You can also have a DAO

00:42:56.882 --> 00:42:57.702
that's not a co-op.

00:42:58.081 --> 00:42:59.003
You can also have a co-op

00:42:59.083 --> 00:42:59.922
that's not a DAO.

00:43:00.023 --> 00:43:01.083
And in particular, to me,

00:43:01.143 --> 00:43:02.103
the biggest difference is

00:43:02.384 --> 00:43:03.543
that what makes a co-op is

00:43:03.563 --> 00:43:06.126
like a particular kind of philosophy.

00:43:06.646 --> 00:43:08.365
It's a particular legal

00:43:08.405 --> 00:43:11.347
structure in a lot of places where...

00:43:12.228 --> 00:43:13.407
Ownership is distributed a

00:43:13.447 --> 00:43:14.309
very particular way.

00:43:14.389 --> 00:43:16.068
Governance is done a very particular way.

00:43:16.489 --> 00:43:17.610
And most DAOs just don't do

00:43:17.650 --> 00:43:18.690
things that exact way,

00:43:18.849 --> 00:43:19.731
even if there's a lot of

00:43:19.871 --> 00:43:22.032
kind of overlap in some of

00:43:22.052 --> 00:43:23.891
the values between the two communities.

00:43:25.112 --> 00:43:26.672
And some DAOs do things that way.

00:43:27.092 --> 00:43:28.873
And similarly, most co-ops are off-chain.

00:43:28.914 --> 00:43:29.114
I mean,

00:43:29.153 --> 00:43:30.735
most co-ops have been around for

00:43:30.755 --> 00:43:31.494
hundreds of years.

00:43:31.954 --> 00:43:32.835
in various forms,

00:43:33.436 --> 00:43:36.217
most of them are just purely on paper.

00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:38.780
And I see no reason to call those DAOs.

00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:39.681
They're just co-ops.

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:41.342
If they want to come use

00:43:41.702 --> 00:43:43.884
on-chain smart contracts to

00:43:43.903 --> 00:43:46.025
do their token to track membership,

00:43:46.405 --> 00:43:47.766
I'd say, yeah, now it's a DAO.

00:43:48.487 --> 00:43:51.068
I think you have a different opinion,

00:43:51.088 --> 00:43:51.467
didn't I?

00:43:51.907 --> 00:43:53.329
I think you did have a different opinion,

00:43:53.349 --> 00:43:54.469
so I definitely want to

00:43:54.509 --> 00:43:55.610
give you the chance to share that.

00:43:55.690 --> 00:43:57.250
But to me,

00:43:58.329 --> 00:44:01.030
the most important thing to

00:44:01.070 --> 00:44:02.311
maybe emphasize here is

00:44:02.632 --> 00:44:03.931
there is a history of

00:44:04.032 --> 00:44:06.672
people trying to build more democratic,

00:44:06.813 --> 00:44:07.514
more fair,

00:44:07.634 --> 00:44:09.835
more social good oriented types

00:44:09.875 --> 00:44:10.815
of organizations.

00:44:11.554 --> 00:44:12.556
And some,

00:44:13.335 --> 00:44:15.016
maybe much of what's happening in

00:44:15.056 --> 00:44:17.318
the DAO industry and space

00:44:17.998 --> 00:44:19.719
is related to that movement.

00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:22.460
But I would say also a lot is not.

00:44:23.061 --> 00:44:23.380
To me,

00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.561
I think that's the most important thing.

00:44:26.222 --> 00:44:28.244
But yeah, Arnold, do you still disagree?

00:44:28.284 --> 00:44:29.184
Do you have a different way

00:44:29.244 --> 00:44:29.824
of looking at it?

00:44:29.844 --> 00:44:35.226
I mean, disagree is a strong word.

00:44:35.306 --> 00:44:36.288
I just have, I guess...

00:44:37.853 --> 00:44:39.373
a different angle, right?

00:44:40.474 --> 00:44:42.315
I do believe that co-ops

00:44:42.414 --> 00:44:43.554
provide a really good

00:44:43.735 --> 00:44:46.516
analogue for how we can think about DAOs.

00:44:47.396 --> 00:44:49.697
DAOs in comparison are

00:44:49.777 --> 00:44:52.018
relatively new and some of

00:44:52.059 --> 00:44:53.398
the principles that you've

00:44:53.438 --> 00:44:57.181
mentioned that are defined

00:44:57.221 --> 00:44:59.981
in co-ops may not necessarily be

00:45:02.648 --> 00:45:03.849
alive in DAOs yet just

00:45:03.889 --> 00:45:06.090
because we haven't gotten to them yet.

00:45:06.849 --> 00:45:07.971
So, for example,

00:45:07.990 --> 00:45:10.291
I'm going to reference an

00:45:10.353 --> 00:45:13.353
article from Andy Aghast

00:45:13.454 --> 00:45:15.155
from Hyper Co-op.

00:45:15.715 --> 00:45:17.036
She wrote a great article on

00:45:18.697 --> 00:45:20.498
seven cooperative

00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:21.798
principles and how they can

00:45:21.838 --> 00:45:22.559
translate into DAOs.

00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:25.902
And in my opinion,

00:45:25.942 --> 00:45:27.503
I think they do have a

00:45:27.882 --> 00:45:29.164
almost one-to-one analogue

00:45:29.224 --> 00:45:32.346
with DAOs from that co-op paradigm.

00:45:33.326 --> 00:45:34.907
We don't necessarily have

00:45:35.027 --> 00:45:35.987
all those principles

00:45:36.327 --> 00:45:40.610
manifesting in tangible operation manuals,

00:45:41.851 --> 00:45:42.972
but I think it's something

00:45:42.992 --> 00:45:44.172
that we can use as a

00:45:44.213 --> 00:45:45.434
handbook to strive towards.

00:45:48.014 --> 00:45:48.635
Cool.

00:45:48.914 --> 00:45:49.094
Yeah.

00:45:50.815 --> 00:45:50.996
Yeah.

00:45:51.175 --> 00:45:51.615
Makes sense.

00:45:53.336 --> 00:45:54.077
And all right.

00:45:54.117 --> 00:45:54.956
Well, so with that,

00:45:55.117 --> 00:45:57.898
let's let's conclude the

00:45:58.059 --> 00:45:59.338
just out news reports.

00:45:59.818 --> 00:46:01.400
I'm going to do a brief segue,

00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:02.619
including a brief ad,

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:03.860
and then we will turn to

00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:04.641
the featured guest

00:46:04.681 --> 00:46:06.521
interview with Arnold at last.

00:46:06.922 --> 00:46:07.842
And we'll learn more about

00:46:07.902 --> 00:46:10.143
him and his work in Web3.

00:46:11.023 --> 00:46:13.164
The brief ad is for my company, MyDAO,

00:46:13.324 --> 00:46:14.585
is the sponsor of the show.

00:46:15.385 --> 00:46:17.666
MyDAO is the company that

00:46:17.746 --> 00:46:18.788
works with the government

00:46:18.807 --> 00:46:19.768
of the Marshall Islands,

00:46:20.349 --> 00:46:22.010
a sovereign nation in the South Pacific,

00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:23.371
on developing what we...

00:46:23.851 --> 00:46:24.831
The goal is to make it the

00:46:24.871 --> 00:46:26.893
best legal entity and legal

00:46:26.932 --> 00:46:28.833
framework in the world for DAOs and Web3.

00:46:29.233 --> 00:46:30.375
So if anyone is thinking

00:46:30.434 --> 00:46:32.175
about where to form your

00:46:32.215 --> 00:46:33.536
Web3 or DAO-related...

00:46:34.016 --> 00:46:36.657
a company, where to form your legal entity,

00:46:36.978 --> 00:46:39.139
please reach out to us at MyDAO.

00:46:39.179 --> 00:46:40.559
You can find us at mydao.org.

00:46:40.579 --> 00:46:42.021
That's M-I-D-A-O.org.

00:46:43.240 --> 00:46:43.882
And similarly,

00:46:44.202 --> 00:46:45.521
if you're looking for a lawyer,

00:46:45.541 --> 00:46:46.402
so we're not lawyers,

00:46:46.503 --> 00:46:47.322
but if you're looking for a

00:46:47.382 --> 00:46:48.784
lawyer or a tax advisor or

00:46:48.844 --> 00:46:50.364
any other kind of professional advisor,

00:46:50.684 --> 00:46:51.764
we have a network of folks

00:46:51.864 --> 00:46:53.606
all over the world who may

00:46:53.646 --> 00:46:55.666
be able to help your DAO or your project

00:46:56.327 --> 00:46:58.588
uh with web3 tax legal etc

00:46:58.887 --> 00:46:59.568
happy to get people

00:46:59.608 --> 00:47:00.809
connected with that network

00:47:00.849 --> 00:47:01.849
so feel free to reach out

00:47:01.889 --> 00:47:03.030
about that or if you are a

00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:04.490
lawyer or tax advisor also

00:47:04.550 --> 00:47:05.690
please reach out about

00:47:05.731 --> 00:47:07.072
getting added to the network

00:47:08.014 --> 00:47:11.617
With that ad out of the way, Arnold, okay.

00:47:11.896 --> 00:47:12.976
Thanks for participating in

00:47:13.016 --> 00:47:13.697
the news report.

00:47:14.438 --> 00:47:15.478
I'm sure we'll find ways to

00:47:15.538 --> 00:47:16.978
tie our conversation back

00:47:17.018 --> 00:47:18.239
to some of the things we read.

00:47:18.619 --> 00:47:20.079
But meanwhile, let's take a step back.

00:47:20.701 --> 00:47:22.300
And would you tell us a bit

00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:23.961
more about how you got into

00:47:24.001 --> 00:47:25.943
Web3 and DAOs in the first place?

00:47:28.027 --> 00:47:29.487
sure um I think I covered a

00:47:29.527 --> 00:47:30.768
little bit of that um

00:47:31.007 --> 00:47:32.608
earlier on but yeah so I

00:47:33.289 --> 00:47:36.989
specifically got into web3

00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:40.510
when I first read vitalik's

00:47:40.570 --> 00:47:43.251
sort of promise of ethereum

00:47:43.291 --> 00:47:45.833
as a world computer and for

00:47:45.873 --> 00:47:47.753
me that really

00:47:48.994 --> 00:47:51.016
opened up my mind in terms

00:47:51.076 --> 00:47:55.480
of how as a systems designer,

00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.461
so I've been a sort of CTO for 15 years,

00:47:58.003 --> 00:47:58.943
love complex systems,

00:47:59.083 --> 00:48:00.644
and I've always been like

00:48:00.846 --> 00:48:01.326
having to write

00:48:01.365 --> 00:48:03.068
integrations between multiple systems.

00:48:03.909 --> 00:48:04.809
But to

00:48:06.547 --> 00:48:08.467
think of a smart contract

00:48:08.527 --> 00:48:10.809
being able to trustlessly

00:48:11.030 --> 00:48:12.791
interrupt with another bona

00:48:12.851 --> 00:48:14.932
fide system and not have

00:48:14.992 --> 00:48:16.094
any human intervention,

00:48:16.353 --> 00:48:17.695
that really sort of blew my mind.

00:48:19.315 --> 00:48:21.458
So that's what really sort

00:48:21.498 --> 00:48:23.338
of Ethereum pilled me.

00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:25.981
And because of that,

00:48:27.101 --> 00:48:29.202
I just started exploring

00:48:29.242 --> 00:48:31.025
what people could do with Ethereum.

00:48:31.985 --> 00:48:34.027
And over the years, that led me to

00:48:36.068 --> 00:48:37.809
Yeah, start exploring smart contracts,

00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:39.110
playing with voting systems,

00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:39.811
riding bridges,

00:48:39.851 --> 00:48:40.751
just seeing what it could do.

00:48:41.791 --> 00:48:43.032
And the thing that actually

00:48:43.072 --> 00:48:46.695
got me into a DAO was I was

00:48:46.755 --> 00:48:49.458
working on a project where,

00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:51.318
let's just say,

00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:54.021
the founders abandoned it

00:48:54.601 --> 00:48:55.963
and the community needed a

00:48:56.382 --> 00:48:59.746
vehicle to really coordinate.

00:49:00.606 --> 00:49:03.829
And because I was very interested in DAOs,

00:49:04.509 --> 00:49:07.592
I'd seen how MakerDAO was operating.

00:49:07.833 --> 00:49:09.974
I think Optimism just launched.

00:49:11.036 --> 00:49:12.677
I was saying, hey,

00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:13.418
this could be a really

00:49:13.539 --> 00:49:14.621
useful experiment for us to

00:49:14.641 --> 00:49:16.402
be able to coordinate and

00:49:16.422 --> 00:49:18.485
align what we believe

00:49:20.005 --> 00:49:21.728
should happen with this project.

00:49:22.088 --> 00:49:24.610
And as such, I created the DAO vehicle.

00:49:25.510 --> 00:49:28.672
And over the course of that project,

00:49:29.233 --> 00:49:31.574
I led over 30 proposals

00:49:31.675 --> 00:49:34.577
that covered creating constitution,

00:49:34.597 --> 00:49:36.878
tokenomics, and

00:49:38.469 --> 00:49:40.851
that was you know extremely

00:49:40.931 --> 00:49:42.873
tough primarily because uh

00:49:44.054 --> 00:49:44.735
we're in a hostile

00:49:44.775 --> 00:49:46.416
environment people had you

00:49:46.456 --> 00:49:47.757
know I guess different

00:49:47.817 --> 00:49:50.139
opinions and that really

00:49:50.179 --> 00:49:51.981
sort of taught me gave me

00:49:52.001 --> 00:49:53.501
across a crash course and

00:49:53.541 --> 00:49:54.983
like well how do we

00:49:55.063 --> 00:49:56.623
coordinate the sort of

00:49:56.784 --> 00:49:59.525
flurry of opinion and what

00:49:59.626 --> 00:50:01.628
processes and procedures

00:50:01.688 --> 00:50:03.509
can we have in place so

00:50:03.568 --> 00:50:05.110
that people can coordinate

00:50:05.190 --> 00:50:06.170
in an effective manner

00:50:07.172 --> 00:50:08.592
And it was through that

00:50:08.753 --> 00:50:12.275
experience that led me to

00:50:12.376 --> 00:50:13.797
sort of conceptualize Lighthouse.

00:50:14.617 --> 00:50:17.179
The key thing that I guess

00:50:17.378 --> 00:50:18.820
was a launchpad for

00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:23.163
Lighthouse was in that previous project,

00:50:23.463 --> 00:50:25.465
I needed to send a message

00:50:25.704 --> 00:50:30.407
to 100,000 holders, right?

00:50:30.507 --> 00:50:32.108
And at the time, two and a half years ago,

00:50:32.128 --> 00:50:34.010
well,

00:50:34.050 --> 00:50:35.271
how do we actually- Like the token

00:50:35.291 --> 00:50:35.931
holders of the DAO.

00:50:37.356 --> 00:50:38.896
Uh, not, they,

00:50:38.916 --> 00:50:40.057
they weren't a Dow at that point.

00:50:40.097 --> 00:50:41.338
They were just people who

00:50:41.518 --> 00:50:43.579
owned a token at some point.

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:44.340
So there were just people

00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:45.179
who bought it from a smart

00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:46.541
contract or from a unit swap pool.

00:50:47.322 --> 00:50:49.802
Um, so at that stage, well.

00:50:52.068 --> 00:50:54.108
You could either send an on chain message,

00:50:54.588 --> 00:50:55.670
but who's actually going to

00:50:55.690 --> 00:50:57.789
read a blockchain message

00:50:57.849 --> 00:50:59.170
on AetherScan decode that?

00:50:59.831 --> 00:51:00.170
Mind you,

00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:02.351
this wasn't the height of the ICO craze.

00:51:02.391 --> 00:51:03.072
So again,

00:51:03.592 --> 00:51:05.634
let's just say that the people

00:51:06.554 --> 00:51:08.275
who had the token probably

00:51:08.295 --> 00:51:10.215
wouldn't have been looking in that area.

00:51:11.016 --> 00:51:13.617
The other option was, hey,

00:51:13.657 --> 00:51:15.498
we could add up an NFT with

00:51:15.557 --> 00:51:17.478
a message saying, hey,

00:51:17.659 --> 00:51:18.719
we need to do this because

00:51:18.739 --> 00:51:19.340
we're going to be

00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:20.621
converting into a DAO and

00:51:20.661 --> 00:51:21.721
we need you to take these

00:51:22.521 --> 00:51:27.423
options on any of the chains.

00:51:28.144 --> 00:51:30.005
That is going to be a huge cost,

00:51:31.025 --> 00:51:32.025
especially at that scale.

00:51:32.907 --> 00:51:34.748
And if you're sending messages

00:51:36.094 --> 00:51:36.795
at scale,

00:51:38.576 --> 00:51:39.836
how do you sort of differentiate

00:51:39.856 --> 00:51:41.858
yourself between people who

00:51:42.137 --> 00:51:45.139
are legitimate authors in

00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:47.101
the project versus people

00:51:47.121 --> 00:51:48.041
who are impersonating?

00:51:48.340 --> 00:51:49.601
So there's another sort of

00:51:49.702 --> 00:51:50.442
edge to the problem.

00:51:51.382 --> 00:51:54.764
And it was through that reasoning, yeah,

00:51:54.784 --> 00:51:57.246
I came up with Lighthouse, which is, okay,

00:51:57.525 --> 00:51:58.425
how can we use

00:52:00.148 --> 00:52:03.670
EOA's smart accounts as a means to signal,

00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:04.329
okay,

00:52:04.369 --> 00:52:05.971
we know that these addresses are

00:52:06.010 --> 00:52:07.231
associated with the project.

00:52:08.211 --> 00:52:09.831
And when we transmit

00:52:10.813 --> 00:52:12.092
messages from these accounts,

00:52:12.253 --> 00:52:14.873
we know that they are, for the most part,

00:52:15.233 --> 00:52:15.833
authenticated.

00:52:15.853 --> 00:52:15.914
But

00:52:19.197 --> 00:52:20.599
we know that, well,

00:52:20.778 --> 00:52:21.518
most people aren't

00:52:21.579 --> 00:52:22.920
necessarily going to be

00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:24.521
receiving these messages on

00:52:24.601 --> 00:52:26.842
any of those aforementioned platforms.

00:52:27.402 --> 00:52:28.742
And even if we were trying

00:52:28.762 --> 00:52:29.784
to direct them to a

00:52:30.403 --> 00:52:31.465
purpose-built website,

00:52:32.597 --> 00:52:32.896
Again,

00:52:32.916 --> 00:52:36.300
it requires a person to proactively

00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:37.159
go to that website.

00:52:38.181 --> 00:52:42.204
So it's quite obvious to me that, well,

00:52:42.483 --> 00:52:43.043
everything's always

00:52:43.083 --> 00:52:44.666
competing for attention on mobile.

00:52:45.865 --> 00:52:49.289
And because of that, I guess, idea,

00:52:49.309 --> 00:52:50.248
I was like, okay,

00:52:50.309 --> 00:52:51.329
in order for this to work,

00:52:52.030 --> 00:52:52.911
we do need to have a

00:52:53.170 --> 00:52:55.012
dedicated mobile client

00:52:55.152 --> 00:52:56.733
where people who are

00:52:56.873 --> 00:52:58.135
genuinely interested in

00:52:58.295 --> 00:52:59.235
following a project

00:53:00.936 --> 00:53:02.117
can have a narrow

00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:03.300
purpose-built client that

00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:05.661
is very different to having

00:53:05.702 --> 00:53:06.882
to participate in the noise

00:53:06.983 --> 00:53:08.204
from any of the traditional

00:53:08.244 --> 00:53:11.246
channels such as Twitter, Telegram,

00:53:11.648 --> 00:53:12.248
or Discord.

00:53:12.849 --> 00:53:13.528
And as we know,

00:53:13.710 --> 00:53:14.831
for anyone who participates

00:53:15.170 --> 00:53:16.713
in more than one project,

00:53:17.646 --> 00:53:18.967
um it can be quite noisy

00:53:18.987 --> 00:53:20.646
like in my discord I've got

00:53:21.067 --> 00:53:23.027
I think 100 dows or let's

00:53:23.047 --> 00:53:24.168
just say communities that

00:53:24.208 --> 00:53:26.989
I'm a part of and it is um

00:53:27.250 --> 00:53:29.010
even if I want to it's

00:53:29.050 --> 00:53:29.831
going to take me a few

00:53:29.871 --> 00:53:30.590
hours to get through

00:53:30.630 --> 00:53:33.351
everything so um using that

00:53:33.472 --> 00:53:36.693
as a sort of basis um I

00:53:37.213 --> 00:53:39.074
yeah develop lighthouse as a narrow

00:53:39.815 --> 00:53:41.195
governance focused clients

00:53:41.235 --> 00:53:43.336
so people who are genuinely

00:53:43.938 --> 00:53:45.759
interested in following and

00:53:45.818 --> 00:53:49.101
participating in uh actions

00:53:49.121 --> 00:53:50.422
within the community they

00:53:50.442 --> 00:53:52.943
can do so during that via

00:53:52.983 --> 00:53:54.905
that mechanism yep

00:53:55.485 --> 00:53:56.326
interesting so okay so

00:53:56.346 --> 00:53:57.186
you're saying if I have a

00:53:57.226 --> 00:53:59.166
dow and I want to have an app

00:54:03.795 --> 00:54:05.076
on people's mobile phones

00:54:05.275 --> 00:54:06.516
for my DAO so that they

00:54:06.536 --> 00:54:09.038
will get messages related to that DAO.

00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:10.498
That's something that

00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.360
Lighthouse is helping them do,

00:54:12.820 --> 00:54:13.240
is that right?

00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:14.561
Yeah, that's correct.

00:54:15.442 --> 00:54:15.922
At the moment,

00:54:16.523 --> 00:54:21.465
we support all the Snapshot DAOs.

00:54:21.485 --> 00:54:24.188
If your DAO or community is on Snapshot,

00:54:25.568 --> 00:54:26.869
you can add them to

00:54:27.489 --> 00:54:29.490
Lighthouse or I can do that for you,

00:54:29.510 --> 00:54:30.052
just message me.

00:54:30.972 --> 00:54:34.675
And whenever a new proposal is put out,

00:54:35.074 --> 00:54:35.576
you'll get a push

00:54:35.615 --> 00:54:37.277
notification and you can vote in that.

00:54:37.456 --> 00:54:38.637
So that means you can sort

00:54:38.697 --> 00:54:41.119
of completely avoid having

00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:42.760
to go to any of those other channels.

00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:44.342
You can trust that it

00:54:44.641 --> 00:54:45.543
actually came from the

00:54:45.583 --> 00:54:48.985
project owners and it just

00:54:49.005 --> 00:54:50.186
gives you a bit of peace of

00:54:50.246 --> 00:54:51.146
mind that you're

00:54:51.166 --> 00:54:52.867
interacting with the correct information.

00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:56.262
That was obviously easy

00:54:56.282 --> 00:54:57.284
because Snapshot provides

00:54:57.364 --> 00:54:59.686
great APIs for that.

00:54:59.925 --> 00:55:01.467
But the next challenge for us was like,

00:55:01.487 --> 00:55:02.068
okay,

00:55:02.389 --> 00:55:03.510
in order for this to actually work

00:55:03.570 --> 00:55:04.110
in scale,

00:55:04.690 --> 00:55:06.873
we needed to work for the bigger

00:55:06.893 --> 00:55:08.815
DAOs that are running on custom contracts,

00:55:09.456 --> 00:55:11.577
such as Optimism, Governor,

00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:17.123
such as optimism, nouns, et cetera.

00:55:17.182 --> 00:55:18.483
So we spent some time

00:55:19.023 --> 00:55:21.505
working out pipelines to

00:55:21.545 --> 00:55:22.367
support those DAOs.

00:55:23.126 --> 00:55:26.909
And now you can actually follow optimism,

00:55:27.471 --> 00:55:28.731
stay up to date with nouns,

00:55:29.331 --> 00:55:30.893
and have those proposals

00:55:30.952 --> 00:55:33.014
delivered straight to your mobile phone,

00:55:33.034 --> 00:55:33.934
which is really interesting.

00:55:34.896 --> 00:55:36.577
And one of the interesting

00:55:36.617 --> 00:55:38.358
things through that exploration

00:55:40.481 --> 00:55:42.001
a lot of these proposals or

00:55:42.121 --> 00:55:43.523
a lot of these governance systems,

00:55:44.003 --> 00:55:48.967
they actually allow you to when you vote,

00:55:49.188 --> 00:55:50.889
provide a comment or a reason.

00:55:51.710 --> 00:55:52.510
And at the moment,

00:55:53.512 --> 00:55:54.893
in the majority of systems,

00:55:54.992 --> 00:55:56.693
I would say that a lot of

00:55:56.733 --> 00:56:00.036
that high signal content is lost.

00:56:00.918 --> 00:56:02.898
So the way we designed

00:56:02.978 --> 00:56:04.621
Lighthouse was more like a

00:56:04.820 --> 00:56:06.922
social platform where

00:56:08.030 --> 00:56:10.211
when you look at a vote you

00:56:10.251 --> 00:56:10.952
see the results

00:56:11.612 --> 00:56:13.295
additionally you will see

00:56:13.414 --> 00:56:14.735
the comments that people

00:56:14.775 --> 00:56:17.739
have spent time putting

00:56:17.878 --> 00:56:18.739
their opinion forward on

00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:20.342
and that adds to a really

00:56:20.382 --> 00:56:22.063
interesting experience and

00:56:22.163 --> 00:56:24.806
makes the community feel much more alive

00:56:26.364 --> 00:56:28.947
So is it one app that brings

00:56:29.047 --> 00:56:30.588
in a feed from all the DAOs

00:56:30.708 --> 00:56:32.811
or it's an app for each DAO or both?

00:56:33.552 --> 00:56:34.032
At the moment,

00:56:34.092 --> 00:56:36.994
it's one app that works with

00:56:37.215 --> 00:56:39.358
all the DAOs with a view of

00:56:39.378 --> 00:56:40.998
being able to support any

00:56:41.018 --> 00:56:43.981
DAO on any EVM chain at the moment.

00:56:45.103 --> 00:56:46.284
I've been speaking to Solana

00:56:46.304 --> 00:56:46.864
people as well.

00:56:47.585 --> 00:56:49.668
I'm a strong believer that

00:56:51.050 --> 00:56:52.650
governance is one of the

00:56:52.690 --> 00:56:54.411
sort of end games of crypto

00:56:54.570 --> 00:56:56.731
and that is um regardless

00:56:56.952 --> 00:56:59.032
of which tribe we belong to

00:56:59.052 --> 00:57:02.474
um because you know crypto

00:57:02.594 --> 00:57:04.835
primitives allow this great

00:57:04.954 --> 00:57:07.594
tool for coordination and

00:57:07.896 --> 00:57:08.976
um you know regardless of

00:57:09.016 --> 00:57:10.735
what system we're on uh we

00:57:10.755 --> 00:57:11.456
just need to be able to

00:57:11.476 --> 00:57:12.376
coordinate effectively

00:57:13.809 --> 00:57:15.130
Yeah, it's a good point, man.

00:57:15.150 --> 00:57:18.012
I feel like crypto is if you

00:57:18.052 --> 00:57:20.193
look at it in a very like

00:57:20.213 --> 00:57:23.016
almost like historical,

00:57:23.097 --> 00:57:25.759
philosophical or anthropological lens,

00:57:26.338 --> 00:57:27.500
it's just a coordination

00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:28.922
technology for people.

00:57:29.541 --> 00:57:29.762
Right.

00:57:30.123 --> 00:57:31.884
Although going back to your earlier,

00:57:31.923 --> 00:57:32.664
you mentioned that one of

00:57:32.684 --> 00:57:33.385
the things that got you

00:57:33.405 --> 00:57:36.108
excited about DAOs was the

00:57:36.148 --> 00:57:37.369
potentially autonomous,

00:57:37.869 --> 00:57:38.889
not even the way we usually

00:57:38.949 --> 00:57:39.731
use the word autonomous,

00:57:39.751 --> 00:57:40.452
but that you could have a

00:57:40.512 --> 00:57:41.713
real autonomous agent

00:57:42.313 --> 00:57:43.273
living on the blockchain

00:57:43.313 --> 00:57:44.976
with its own money doing its own thing.

00:57:46.516 --> 00:57:48.798
I wonder if that breaks the metaphor,

00:57:48.858 --> 00:57:49.780
but I think otherwise

00:57:51.101 --> 00:57:52.603
crypto is a coordination

00:57:52.822 --> 00:57:54.463
technology for people.

00:57:55.773 --> 00:57:57.978
And part of coordination is governance.

00:57:58.277 --> 00:57:59.822
Maybe it's just a subset or

00:58:00.222 --> 00:58:02.387
one component of what coordination is,

00:58:02.487 --> 00:58:04.172
but certainly it's one big part.

00:58:05.295 --> 00:58:06.135
No, most definitely.

00:58:06.155 --> 00:58:06.896
And I think that's a really

00:58:06.936 --> 00:58:07.637
interesting point.

00:58:08.177 --> 00:58:09.838
So I think a lot of the DAOs

00:58:09.978 --> 00:58:12.579
that are present at the moment,

00:58:13.179 --> 00:58:14.619
they are either social DAOs

00:58:14.858 --> 00:58:16.179
with human actors.

00:58:17.380 --> 00:58:18.360
Actually, they all are.

00:58:19.061 --> 00:58:20.902
But if we look at the types

00:58:20.961 --> 00:58:23.382
of proposals that are being executed,

00:58:25.003 --> 00:58:26.963
especially when we look at protocol DAOs,

00:58:27.583 --> 00:58:30.525
a lot of the protocol DAOs are more

00:58:32.139 --> 00:58:33.760
optimize for configuring

00:58:34.021 --> 00:58:36.702
like fee parameters or

00:58:37.242 --> 00:58:39.385
mathematical concepts, right?

00:58:39.985 --> 00:58:42.967
And I would argue that over time,

00:58:43.568 --> 00:58:46.349
as the proposal data and

00:58:46.409 --> 00:58:47.431
the outputs from those

00:58:47.471 --> 00:58:49.353
information and from disparate systems,

00:58:50.353 --> 00:58:52.034
we're more likely to see

00:58:52.114 --> 00:58:53.036
autonomous agents or

00:58:53.115 --> 00:58:54.956
autonomous proposals become a thing.

00:58:56.338 --> 00:58:58.179
people can focus on human things.

00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.101
But just given the way it is at the moment,

00:59:01.121 --> 00:59:02.681
yeah, they're all human-based.

00:59:03.461 --> 00:59:03.641
Yep.

00:59:04.463 --> 00:59:04.963
Interesting.

00:59:05.043 --> 00:59:07.364
Okay, so first of all,

00:59:07.385 --> 00:59:08.385
can you tell us more about

00:59:08.405 --> 00:59:09.846
the DAO that you started

00:59:09.925 --> 00:59:11.746
and worked on and did the 30 proposals?

00:59:11.887 --> 00:59:12.568
Is it gone now?

00:59:12.628 --> 00:59:13.387
Is that why you don't

00:59:13.547 --> 00:59:14.369
mention the name or...?

00:59:16.070 --> 00:59:17.411
It's not gone, it still exists.

00:59:18.052 --> 00:59:20.172
It's a DAO called Not Safe for Work,

00:59:20.253 --> 00:59:21.755
which is controversial

00:59:21.815 --> 00:59:25.818
because it is an OnlyFans-based DAO.

00:59:25.998 --> 00:59:27.358
It was one of the first

00:59:27.838 --> 00:59:31.981
head-up DAOs that came on the market,

00:59:32.121 --> 00:59:33.262
I think were the only ones left.

00:59:34.043 --> 00:59:34.923
I think a lot of them sort

00:59:34.963 --> 00:59:35.864
of like came and went.

00:59:38.128 --> 00:59:40.110
yeah it was an example of

00:59:40.269 --> 00:59:40.949
really putting into

00:59:40.989 --> 00:59:41.769
practice a lot of the

00:59:41.889 --> 00:59:44.690
different theory and um

00:59:45.751 --> 00:59:47.351
yeah it's it's a community

00:59:47.391 --> 00:59:48.592
that has these really

00:59:48.632 --> 00:59:50.512
interesting ideas I had to

00:59:50.552 --> 00:59:52.432
learn a lot it's not my

00:59:52.492 --> 00:59:54.452
industry but you know I did

00:59:54.552 --> 00:59:57.293
speak to great people from

00:59:58.474 --> 01:00:00.193
um there's a person called

01:00:00.213 --> 01:00:01.534
briny cole she runs a

01:00:01.594 --> 01:00:02.514
podcast called the future

01:00:02.534 --> 01:00:04.255
of sex and it's all about

01:00:04.315 --> 01:00:06.335
sex positivity uh empowerment

01:00:06.956 --> 01:00:09.297
And the reason why I did

01:00:09.356 --> 01:00:10.797
work in that space is

01:00:10.858 --> 01:00:14.719
because if we look at sex

01:00:14.759 --> 01:00:15.440
workers or even just

01:00:15.500 --> 01:00:16.960
creators in that space,

01:00:18.701 --> 01:00:19.420
they are actually one of

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:21.222
the most underserved people

01:00:21.242 --> 01:00:22.782
when it comes to financial institutions.

01:00:23.402 --> 01:00:26.784
So crypto is a real way for

01:00:26.864 --> 01:00:29.085
them to be able to take

01:00:29.125 --> 01:00:30.606
control of their own narrative.

01:00:31.565 --> 01:00:34.791
And instead of being able to, I guess,

01:00:35.510 --> 01:00:36.873
like my process when I was

01:00:36.932 --> 01:00:38.375
working and creating these

01:00:38.434 --> 01:00:39.476
systems was like,

01:00:39.536 --> 01:00:40.717
we can do this ethically

01:00:41.318 --> 01:00:43.340
and fairly and create

01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:46.324
systems that are self regulated.

01:00:46.445 --> 01:00:49.588
So instead of a small corporation who has

01:00:50.570 --> 01:00:52.532
very outsized or different incentives,

01:00:53.213 --> 01:00:55.577
we can have a DAO that's

01:00:55.777 --> 01:00:57.280
owned and operated by the community.

01:00:57.679 --> 01:00:59.382
And it's not governed by any under,

01:00:59.802 --> 01:01:00.483
it's not governed by a

01:01:00.523 --> 01:01:01.244
small group of people.

01:01:01.264 --> 01:01:02.206
So yeah.

01:01:03.755 --> 01:01:03.934
Yep.

01:01:04.476 --> 01:01:04.715
Cool.

01:01:04.876 --> 01:01:06.056
Okay.

01:01:06.077 --> 01:01:08.559
And so coming from that experience,

01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:10.960
starting a DAO, working on a DAO,

01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:15.003
and now working on a DAO tool,

01:01:17.005 --> 01:01:19.025
what have you seen over the

01:01:19.065 --> 01:01:20.507
past few years being super

01:01:20.527 --> 01:01:21.748
engaged in the DAO space?

01:01:22.889 --> 01:01:24.429
uh what's what has surprised

01:01:24.469 --> 01:01:26.490
you what stands out to you

01:01:27.152 --> 01:01:28.152
and really I think part of

01:01:28.192 --> 01:01:28.992
what I'm trying to get at

01:01:29.052 --> 01:01:31.233
is like what are dows doing

01:01:31.333 --> 01:01:33.456
right or doing wrong that

01:01:33.496 --> 01:01:35.056
that really stands out I

01:01:35.096 --> 01:01:36.056
mean what are you seeing in

01:01:36.097 --> 01:01:37.418
the dow space to help us

01:01:37.458 --> 01:01:38.679
get a sense of what's going

01:01:38.798 --> 01:01:40.599
on in the dow world today

01:01:40.619 --> 01:01:44.242
yeah it's it's a loaded

01:01:44.302 --> 01:01:45.943
question I think a lot of

01:01:46.402 --> 01:01:47.164
there's a lot of great

01:01:47.304 --> 01:01:47.943
innovation and

01:01:48.003 --> 01:01:50.826
experimentation happening I think um

01:01:52.628 --> 01:01:54.849
fractional ownership is really interesting,

01:01:55.568 --> 01:01:57.210
on-chain commitments, because again,

01:01:57.230 --> 01:01:58.190
I think a lot of,

01:01:58.210 --> 01:01:59.891
and I've mentioned this a few times,

01:01:59.971 --> 01:02:01.050
accountability is one of

01:02:01.090 --> 01:02:03.112
the best things that DAOs

01:02:03.192 --> 01:02:05.092
offer to people because it

01:02:05.152 --> 01:02:09.394
gives any individual a sort

01:02:09.414 --> 01:02:11.795
of a genuine transparent, well,

01:02:11.815 --> 01:02:13.096
the possibility of a very

01:02:13.135 --> 01:02:14.896
transparent organization, right?

01:02:15.536 --> 01:02:17.717
And how people are elected, how...

01:02:21.815 --> 01:02:23.016
roles are surfaced and their

01:02:23.056 --> 01:02:23.976
responsibilities,

01:02:24.237 --> 01:02:25.717
they are no longer opaque.

01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:30.280
And it means that

01:02:31.362 --> 01:02:33.923
individuals can rotate

01:02:33.983 --> 01:02:35.824
between roles and

01:02:35.864 --> 01:02:37.246
responsibilities a lot easier.

01:02:37.746 --> 01:02:38.567
So I think already,

01:02:38.586 --> 01:02:40.929
I know that sounds a little bit vague,

01:02:41.068 --> 01:02:41.929
but for example,

01:02:43.034 --> 01:02:45.876
I really love the idea of seasons.

01:02:46.496 --> 01:02:51.260
So DAOs are really time consuming.

01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:52.561
They involve so much

01:02:53.682 --> 01:02:54.824
commitment mentally and

01:02:54.864 --> 01:02:56.445
physically to run town halls,

01:02:56.485 --> 01:02:57.306
gather feedback,

01:02:57.445 --> 01:02:58.927
make sure that things are presented.

01:02:59.987 --> 01:03:01.309
um in the right manner

01:03:01.929 --> 01:03:03.371
because dao's are a diverse

01:03:03.411 --> 01:03:05.592
group of people um hey it's

01:03:05.612 --> 01:03:06.934
not only english we've you

01:03:06.954 --> 01:03:08.195
know I've had to deal with

01:03:08.376 --> 01:03:09.335
well how do I make sure

01:03:09.376 --> 01:03:11.257
that this is also relatable

01:03:11.338 --> 01:03:12.438
and understandable to

01:03:12.518 --> 01:03:13.139
people of different

01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:15.260
languages as well and are

01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:16.141
we communicating things

01:03:16.202 --> 01:03:17.003
effectively in the correct

01:03:17.103 --> 01:03:21.686
manner um so yeah I think

01:03:22.047 --> 01:03:22.768
there's just a lot

01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:24.800
that's happening in DAOs.

01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:26.420
I think everyone's trying

01:03:26.460 --> 01:03:27.521
their best to make sure

01:03:27.561 --> 01:03:29.121
that everyone's aware of

01:03:29.222 --> 01:03:30.061
how things operate,

01:03:30.141 --> 01:03:31.001
but we can always be doing

01:03:31.041 --> 01:03:32.782
better jobs at that.

01:03:33.603 --> 01:03:34.523
Yeah.

01:03:34.623 --> 01:03:35.943
Is there a common theme that

01:03:35.983 --> 01:03:38.344
you see in terms of what

01:03:38.545 --> 01:03:41.304
problems are showing up for DAOs today?

01:03:41.324 --> 01:03:42.565
I mean, clearly,

01:03:42.606 --> 01:03:44.085
you guys are going after

01:03:44.166 --> 01:03:45.027
one of those problems,

01:03:45.067 --> 01:03:47.706
which is communicating with

01:03:47.947 --> 01:03:49.467
your users about important

01:03:49.927 --> 01:03:51.188
messages and proposals.

01:03:53.148 --> 01:03:53.829
But I mean,

01:03:53.869 --> 01:03:55.311
is that is that something that

01:03:55.351 --> 01:03:56.891
like every day I was like, man,

01:03:57.012 --> 01:03:58.052
I can't keep operating if

01:03:58.072 --> 01:03:59.434
we don't have a better way to do that.

01:04:00.114 --> 01:04:00.255
One 100%.

01:04:01.396 --> 01:04:04.358
So a lot of the user research that we did.

01:04:04.378 --> 01:04:04.418
So

01:04:07.929 --> 01:04:08.871
For people who operate in

01:04:08.911 --> 01:04:09.871
like one or two DAOs,

01:04:09.911 --> 01:04:10.972
it doesn't really matter as

01:04:11.112 --> 01:04:12.353
much because again,

01:04:12.393 --> 01:04:13.454
the highly engaged doesn't

01:04:13.494 --> 01:04:16.297
take that much effort to stay up to date.

01:04:16.396 --> 01:04:18.759
But the second you're at three plus,

01:04:19.259 --> 01:04:20.360
it becomes a real burden,

01:04:20.980 --> 01:04:22.021
especially when you think

01:04:22.081 --> 01:04:24.682
about the meetings you need to attend to,

01:04:26.344 --> 01:04:27.646
discussions, proposals.

01:04:28.106 --> 01:04:30.487
So part of why I built

01:04:30.547 --> 01:04:31.728
Lighthouse is to really

01:04:31.789 --> 01:04:32.668
sort of streamline

01:04:33.710 --> 01:04:35.590
that downstream effect of

01:04:35.630 --> 01:04:37.431
information so that they

01:04:37.472 --> 01:04:38.831
have people have one place

01:04:38.891 --> 01:04:39.952
they know that okay cool

01:04:39.992 --> 01:04:41.594
I've got a meeting tomorrow

01:04:42.434 --> 01:04:43.775
I can attend that then I

01:04:43.795 --> 01:04:46.396
can vote and the proposal

01:04:46.476 --> 01:04:47.916
aspect of what I've

01:04:47.936 --> 01:04:49.416
described so far is just

01:04:49.476 --> 01:04:51.677
the first part of what we

01:04:51.717 --> 01:04:54.900
are planning to build we are planning

01:04:56.927 --> 01:04:58.367
just ways to streamline the

01:04:58.628 --> 01:05:00.889
contributor fatigue so that people,

01:05:01.048 --> 01:05:02.369
specifically delegates who

01:05:02.389 --> 01:05:06.251
sit on genuinely five to eight DAOs,

01:05:07.952 --> 01:05:10.353
they can just have an

01:05:10.393 --> 01:05:11.394
easier time being able to

01:05:11.434 --> 01:05:12.295
participate and actually

01:05:12.335 --> 01:05:13.235
spend their time thinking

01:05:13.295 --> 01:05:15.556
about the proposal at hand versus, oh,

01:05:15.597 --> 01:05:16.697
I'm running late to this.

01:05:18.577 --> 01:05:18.818
Yeah.

01:05:19.918 --> 01:05:20.838
Hopefully that makes sense.

01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:22.440
Yeah, it makes sense.

01:05:22.480 --> 01:05:23.800
I mean, I feel like

01:05:25.344 --> 01:05:25.664
one of,

01:05:25.746 --> 01:05:28.208
if not the most common challenge

01:05:28.768 --> 01:05:29.829
that I see coming up in

01:05:29.869 --> 01:05:32.210
DAOs is communication in general, right?

01:05:32.251 --> 01:05:33.172
Where do we communicate?

01:05:33.552 --> 01:05:36.074
And it seems like you're going after,

01:05:37.295 --> 01:05:39.036
maybe we could call it like

01:05:39.137 --> 01:05:40.358
the communication between

01:05:40.398 --> 01:05:41.798
the DAO and the community.

01:05:43.108 --> 01:05:43.889
But then there's also the

01:05:43.929 --> 01:05:45.389
question of just how does the community,

01:05:45.429 --> 01:05:46.530
how do the DAO members talk

01:05:46.570 --> 01:05:47.030
to each other?

01:05:47.050 --> 01:05:48.550
How do the teams communicate

01:05:48.570 --> 01:05:49.150
with each other?

01:05:49.170 --> 01:05:50.791
Do they use Discord?

01:05:50.871 --> 01:05:51.751
But there's a lot of issues

01:05:51.791 --> 01:05:52.771
people have with Discord.

01:05:52.811 --> 01:05:53.713
Do they use Telegram?

01:05:53.753 --> 01:05:54.833
Then there's those issues.

01:05:56.193 --> 01:05:57.733
Some DAOs like Purple are

01:05:57.753 --> 01:05:59.014
trying to have all their

01:05:59.054 --> 01:06:00.795
communication on Farcaster,

01:06:01.275 --> 01:06:02.295
which is interesting,

01:06:02.556 --> 01:06:03.956
but doesn't seem perfect either.

01:06:03.976 --> 01:06:06.557
So that's a different challenge, right?

01:06:06.617 --> 01:06:07.878
It's like communication...

01:06:09.315 --> 01:06:10.356
I think it's related,

01:06:10.516 --> 01:06:11.916
so I've definitely got some

01:06:11.996 --> 01:06:12.797
ideas on that.

01:06:13.097 --> 01:06:14.577
And I think one thing that

01:06:14.617 --> 01:06:16.139
we need to consider is that

01:06:16.918 --> 01:06:17.820
depending on the DAO,

01:06:19.059 --> 01:06:20.340
each DAO will generally

01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:22.862
tend to gravitate towards a

01:06:22.902 --> 01:06:24.402
particular channel for

01:06:24.443 --> 01:06:27.485
communication based on their objective.

01:06:27.525 --> 01:06:28.465
So a lot of people

01:06:28.925 --> 01:06:30.286
historically love Telegram.

01:06:30.306 --> 01:06:31.706
I think there's a new sort

01:06:31.746 --> 01:06:34.108
of wave of DAOs who prefer Farcaster.

01:06:35.028 --> 01:06:36.190
regardless of what medium

01:06:36.750 --> 01:06:37.610
you communicate on,

01:06:37.851 --> 01:06:39.592
we have to remember that, again,

01:06:39.612 --> 01:06:41.293
a DAO is a broad church.

01:06:41.853 --> 01:06:43.835
We have participants who may

01:06:43.876 --> 01:06:44.856
not necessarily are

01:06:44.896 --> 01:06:46.518
familiar with Discord or

01:06:47.038 --> 01:06:48.438
maybe don't want to have Telegram.

01:06:48.478 --> 01:06:50.661
So that poses a real design

01:06:50.681 --> 01:06:53.202
challenge in terms of where

01:06:53.242 --> 01:06:54.623
we allow people to

01:06:54.903 --> 01:06:59.106
congregate and also who is

01:06:59.146 --> 01:07:00.407
allowed to participate

01:07:00.447 --> 01:07:01.449
within certain channels.

01:07:01.528 --> 01:07:01.989
So if we

01:07:03.150 --> 01:07:04.231
uh just loop back to that

01:07:04.391 --> 01:07:05.690
original example where

01:07:05.710 --> 01:07:07.391
actually I don't know if we

01:07:07.411 --> 01:07:08.572
talked about this here or

01:07:08.592 --> 01:07:10.713
if that was in the dow a

01:07:10.753 --> 01:07:11.833
town hall before but like

01:07:11.873 --> 01:07:13.833
to say for example one of

01:07:13.873 --> 01:07:14.434
the things that we

01:07:14.474 --> 01:07:16.574
experimented with uh when

01:07:16.614 --> 01:07:19.096
it came to transparency and

01:07:19.115 --> 01:07:22.097
communications in a dow we

01:07:22.117 --> 01:07:24.277
had a discord channel that

01:07:24.338 --> 01:07:26.739
was for verified members we

01:07:26.778 --> 01:07:28.259
had another channel that

01:07:28.278 --> 01:07:29.920
was for delegates where any

01:07:29.940 --> 01:07:30.780
of the delegates could

01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:31.840
speak so they didn't

01:07:32.601 --> 01:07:34.842
It wasn't cluttered with additional noise,

01:07:34.862 --> 01:07:36.264
but we also allowed the

01:07:36.324 --> 01:07:37.724
verified members to view

01:07:37.744 --> 01:07:38.445
that information.

01:07:38.965 --> 01:07:40.385
Then we also had another level,

01:07:40.786 --> 01:07:42.668
which was for signers who

01:07:42.688 --> 01:07:45.190
wanted to specifically or

01:07:45.250 --> 01:07:47.811
strictly speak about price sensitive

01:07:49.545 --> 01:07:51.847
So I think there are a lot of challenges.

01:07:51.887 --> 01:07:52.987
There are definitely some

01:07:53.166 --> 01:07:54.987
interesting tools that are

01:07:55.027 --> 01:07:56.168
coming out in the next

01:07:57.449 --> 01:07:59.889
month or two that will

01:08:00.070 --> 01:08:01.989
potentially aid these types

01:08:02.030 --> 01:08:02.851
of communications.

01:08:04.490 --> 01:08:05.672
There's also technology that

01:08:05.692 --> 01:08:06.413
we have to consider.

01:08:06.632 --> 01:08:09.155
So again, Discord, centralized.

01:08:09.355 --> 01:08:11.916
Telegram, arguably centralized.

01:08:12.677 --> 01:08:13.398
And we don't know what's

01:08:13.438 --> 01:08:14.478
actually behind the scenes.

01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:16.300
So one of the properties

01:08:16.340 --> 01:08:18.362
that we need if we want to

01:08:18.521 --> 01:08:20.623
do this properly is like, well,

01:08:22.505 --> 01:08:23.845
who actually offers intent

01:08:23.886 --> 01:08:26.809
encrypted chat that is composable?

01:08:28.069 --> 01:08:31.231
And the two- And can be owned by the DAO,

01:08:31.552 --> 01:08:31.752
right?

01:08:32.810 --> 01:08:33.112
Correct.

01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:35.948
And it's sufficiently decentralized.

01:08:36.757 --> 01:08:38.298
That's a key point, right?

01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:38.979
So yeah,

01:08:39.060 --> 01:08:40.180
there's two technologies that I'm

01:08:40.201 --> 01:08:40.961
really interested in.

01:08:41.662 --> 01:08:42.703
Waku Protocol.

01:08:43.583 --> 01:08:44.344
They've been in the space

01:08:44.384 --> 01:08:45.284
for a very long time.

01:08:45.305 --> 01:08:45.945
They're doing some really

01:08:45.966 --> 01:08:46.605
interesting work.

01:08:47.367 --> 01:08:49.547
And there's another really

01:08:49.588 --> 01:08:52.291
cool protocol called, I believe,

01:08:52.310 --> 01:08:52.990
Hole Punch.

01:08:53.731 --> 01:08:56.014
And that is super novel.

01:08:56.194 --> 01:08:57.694
And I think it's actually

01:08:57.795 --> 01:09:00.698
funded by the USDT guys.

01:09:01.637 --> 01:09:02.958
And it's built on top of...

01:09:04.975 --> 01:09:06.056
DHT technology,

01:09:06.077 --> 01:09:06.818
which is the technology

01:09:06.837 --> 01:09:07.640
that powers BitTorrent.

01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:09.443
So it's generally

01:09:09.802 --> 01:09:11.605
decentralized and it's

01:09:11.907 --> 01:09:13.029
theoretically unstoppable.

01:09:13.109 --> 01:09:16.033
So again, really interesting technologies,

01:09:16.213 --> 01:09:18.759
but again, nascent.

01:09:20.065 --> 01:09:21.167
Yes, it was good to hear.

01:09:21.207 --> 01:09:22.606
I wasn't aware of those projects.

01:09:22.667 --> 01:09:24.127
It's good to hear those are coming soon.

01:09:24.228 --> 01:09:25.908
I can list another one that's coming soon,

01:09:25.948 --> 01:09:27.130
which is called Common.

01:09:27.729 --> 01:09:30.952
It's built by the founders of DAO Stack,

01:09:31.192 --> 01:09:32.752
which was, as you probably know,

01:09:32.792 --> 01:09:34.634
is one of the original DAO

01:09:34.713 --> 01:09:37.314
tooling platforms alongside Moloch.

01:09:37.376 --> 01:09:39.697
But the DAO Stack team ended

01:09:39.756 --> 01:09:40.777
up pivoting and going in a

01:09:40.817 --> 01:09:41.597
different direction.

01:09:41.618 --> 01:09:42.677
I don't think anyone uses

01:09:42.698 --> 01:09:43.519
DAO Stack anymore,

01:09:43.559 --> 01:09:44.179
at least not if you're

01:09:44.198 --> 01:09:44.960
launching a new DAO.

01:09:46.440 --> 01:09:48.301
But the team is now focused

01:09:48.782 --> 01:09:50.863
on a collaboration tool for DAOs.

01:09:52.005 --> 01:09:53.645
So it's not out yet,

01:09:53.706 --> 01:09:55.368
but I think it's coming soon as well.

01:09:55.967 --> 01:09:56.729
So that's exciting.

01:09:56.849 --> 01:09:57.149
Awesome.

01:09:57.288 --> 01:09:57.429
Yeah,

01:09:57.448 --> 01:09:58.909
let's put these in the show notes to

01:09:58.949 --> 01:10:00.771
definitely get the word out for sure.

01:10:00.992 --> 01:10:01.231
Yes.

01:10:01.591 --> 01:10:02.432
Yeah, definitely.

01:10:02.552 --> 01:10:02.773
Yeah.

01:10:02.813 --> 01:10:03.434
Although I wish we could

01:10:03.453 --> 01:10:04.253
send people stuff they

01:10:04.274 --> 01:10:05.515
could start using today,

01:10:05.956 --> 01:10:06.636
but we'll have to look

01:10:06.655 --> 01:10:07.676
forward to that coming soon.

01:10:09.810 --> 01:10:11.449
What do you feel like is the

01:10:11.510 --> 01:10:13.970
future of DAOs in terms of

01:10:14.051 --> 01:10:14.930
what you're seeing,

01:10:15.490 --> 01:10:16.591
what you're experiencing?

01:10:17.192 --> 01:10:19.532
Where are we going to be in

01:10:19.551 --> 01:10:22.052
a year and in several years?

01:10:26.894 --> 01:10:31.734
Well, let's just take a macro view.

01:10:31.755 --> 01:10:32.335
So for me,

01:10:33.076 --> 01:10:35.796
I strongly believe that DAOs are

01:10:36.256 --> 01:10:38.197
an important and innovation

01:10:39.073 --> 01:10:39.984
akin to the

01:10:41.627 --> 01:10:42.927
limited liability company.

01:10:43.007 --> 01:10:44.207
So when limited liability

01:10:44.328 --> 01:10:46.208
companies first came on the scene, uh,

01:10:47.088 --> 01:10:48.789
I believe they were originally created.

01:10:49.229 --> 01:10:52.051
So when ships went out to sea, um,

01:10:52.430 --> 01:10:53.692
and people had to spend a

01:10:53.712 --> 01:10:54.752
lot of money to go on these

01:10:54.792 --> 01:10:56.993
voyages and come back and, you know, the,

01:10:57.453 --> 01:10:58.594
the capital would be sort

01:10:58.613 --> 01:10:59.554
of constrained in terms of

01:10:59.673 --> 01:11:00.274
how it was lost.

01:11:00.935 --> 01:11:03.256
I think that DAOs are

01:11:03.355 --> 01:11:05.976
basically the next level up.

01:11:06.216 --> 01:11:09.497
And, um, it means that for me, uh,

01:11:12.051 --> 01:11:13.231
The more quickly we can

01:11:13.292 --> 01:11:14.212
coordinate capital

01:11:15.052 --> 01:11:16.592
efficiently and without any

01:11:16.672 --> 01:11:19.494
geographical boundaries is

01:11:20.095 --> 01:11:21.496
really where DAOs will win.

01:11:21.515 --> 01:11:23.457
I don't know how long it

01:11:24.256 --> 01:11:25.658
will take for us to get there.

01:11:26.418 --> 01:11:28.140
Innovation moves extremely quickly.

01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:30.020
So I wouldn't want to sort

01:11:30.081 --> 01:11:31.761
of put any time horizon on that.

01:11:31.801 --> 01:11:34.863
It could be as early as the

01:11:34.882 --> 01:11:35.984
end of the year for all we know.

01:11:36.724 --> 01:11:38.085
But I think the main thing

01:11:38.125 --> 01:11:39.005
that we want to take away

01:11:39.024 --> 01:11:40.204
in terms of the future of

01:11:40.244 --> 01:11:43.265
DAOs is just quick capital formation,

01:11:43.286 --> 01:11:46.027
accountability, coordination.

01:11:46.046 --> 01:11:50.087
Yeah, that's what I'd say about that.

01:11:51.088 --> 01:11:52.708
Cool.

01:11:52.828 --> 01:11:53.829
Is there anything you think

01:11:54.109 --> 01:11:55.449
that's a major blocker we

01:11:55.489 --> 01:11:57.411
need to solve for to get there?

01:11:59.143 --> 01:12:00.583
um, legals.

01:12:02.005 --> 01:12:02.506
Oh yeah.

01:12:02.826 --> 01:12:03.426
No, say more.

01:12:05.327 --> 01:12:07.109
Well, um, to be honest,

01:12:09.550 --> 01:12:10.690
you're probably a better

01:12:10.730 --> 01:12:11.451
person to speak on it,

01:12:11.470 --> 01:12:12.931
but I think just ensuring

01:12:12.993 --> 01:12:16.414
that people have the appropriate, um,

01:12:18.220 --> 01:12:19.701
legal protections to

01:12:19.940 --> 01:12:21.181
participate in these

01:12:21.301 --> 01:12:22.302
innovative structures

01:12:22.323 --> 01:12:23.382
without fear of

01:12:23.443 --> 01:12:24.823
repercussion is probably

01:12:24.844 --> 01:12:25.904
the most important thing.

01:12:25.925 --> 01:12:30.167
Yeah, I'm not an expert on the topic,

01:12:30.427 --> 01:12:31.769
I would consult a lawyer.

01:12:31.788 --> 01:12:32.088
But yeah,

01:12:32.408 --> 01:12:33.329
that's probably the biggest

01:12:33.850 --> 01:12:35.511
concern I have that is a

01:12:35.551 --> 01:12:36.452
hindrance to this.

01:12:37.551 --> 01:12:37.770
Cool.

01:12:38.332 --> 01:12:38.511
Well,

01:12:38.572 --> 01:12:39.872
it's always good to hear since that's

01:12:39.912 --> 01:12:40.872
something I'm working on.

01:12:41.113 --> 01:12:41.993
Um, I think, you know,

01:12:42.033 --> 01:12:43.775
what we see is really maybe

01:12:43.956 --> 01:12:46.938
two approaches to that problem.

01:12:46.957 --> 01:12:46.997
Uh,

01:12:47.899 --> 01:12:49.560
there's the one that we're taking at my

01:12:49.579 --> 01:12:49.819
Dow,

01:12:49.859 --> 01:12:53.382
which is to create legal forms like

01:12:53.523 --> 01:12:55.885
the LLC, uh, you know,

01:12:55.925 --> 01:12:57.565
called the Dow LLC or whatever.

01:12:57.586 --> 01:12:58.747
It could be the Duna in

01:12:59.106 --> 01:13:01.488
Wyoming that's coming out soon, um,

01:13:01.708 --> 01:13:03.289
where you're basically, uh,

01:13:04.930 --> 01:13:05.712
Some people have been very

01:13:05.752 --> 01:13:06.372
critical about it.

01:13:06.391 --> 01:13:06.652
They said, hey,

01:13:06.671 --> 01:13:07.252
why are you taking

01:13:07.292 --> 01:13:08.212
something that was made for

01:13:08.252 --> 01:13:09.474
a different situation and

01:13:09.533 --> 01:13:10.274
retrofitting it?

01:13:10.713 --> 01:13:10.994
I mean,

01:13:11.074 --> 01:13:11.994
another way of looking at it is

01:13:12.034 --> 01:13:13.095
we're just taking the laws

01:13:13.355 --> 01:13:13.996
that were written and

01:13:14.055 --> 01:13:15.157
adapting them so they work

01:13:15.216 --> 01:13:16.176
for DAOs and Web3.

01:13:16.597 --> 01:13:18.378
Makes it sound very plain vanilla.

01:13:20.479 --> 01:13:21.840
And so that way any DAO can

01:13:22.381 --> 01:13:25.061
register a company and get

01:13:25.082 --> 01:13:26.403
all those legal benefits

01:13:26.422 --> 01:13:27.002
that people have been

01:13:27.023 --> 01:13:28.024
getting for hundreds of years.

01:13:28.743 --> 01:13:29.845
I think a different approach,

01:13:29.886 --> 01:13:31.087
which is interesting as well,

01:13:31.127 --> 01:13:31.769
and actually just this

01:13:31.828 --> 01:13:32.770
morning I spoke with a

01:13:32.850 --> 01:13:34.051
state representative from

01:13:34.112 --> 01:13:35.654
New Hampshire where they're

01:13:35.694 --> 01:13:37.296
working on something like the following,

01:13:37.355 --> 01:13:37.756
which is

01:13:38.796 --> 01:13:40.318
rather than creating a

01:13:40.398 --> 01:13:41.479
company forum that people

01:13:41.538 --> 01:13:42.399
necessarily need to

01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:43.860
register with the state the

01:13:44.060 --> 01:13:45.362
way they would a traditional company.

01:13:45.783 --> 01:13:46.182
Instead,

01:13:46.262 --> 01:13:47.984
maybe we need some basic

01:13:48.043 --> 01:13:50.025
protections automatically

01:13:50.286 --> 01:13:51.686
written into the law that

01:13:51.806 --> 01:13:53.929
automatically apply to DAO

01:13:53.969 --> 01:13:55.250
members and give them those

01:13:55.310 --> 01:13:56.730
benefits even without any

01:13:56.770 --> 01:13:59.172
kind of registered company on the books.

01:13:59.773 --> 01:14:00.814
And so for example,

01:14:00.833 --> 01:14:02.074
if you could create a set

01:14:02.095 --> 01:14:03.496
of characteristics and say, okay,

01:14:03.856 --> 01:14:05.917
if you're a token holder of

01:14:06.057 --> 01:14:07.680
a sufficiently decentralized

01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:09.681
system and here's what

01:14:09.742 --> 01:14:10.903
sufficiently decentralized

01:14:10.943 --> 01:14:14.086
means and there's maybe no

01:14:14.126 --> 01:14:15.847
one with too much power and

01:14:15.927 --> 01:14:16.889
everything is really done

01:14:16.988 --> 01:14:20.372
on chain and a b c d e f g

01:14:20.412 --> 01:14:21.333
whatever the considerations

01:14:21.373 --> 01:14:22.614
are then we're going to

01:14:22.716 --> 01:14:24.056
actually give that legal

01:14:24.096 --> 01:14:25.438
protection to the token

01:14:25.457 --> 01:14:26.359
holder to the member

01:14:26.979 --> 01:14:28.360
that otherwise you would

01:14:28.381 --> 01:14:29.282
have had to register a

01:14:29.341 --> 01:14:30.561
company to get that protection.

01:14:30.641 --> 01:14:31.703
So it's almost like building

01:14:31.743 --> 01:14:33.264
in a default special

01:14:33.363 --> 01:14:35.185
treatment in the law for DAOs.

01:14:35.865 --> 01:14:37.367
And I'm not sure which one will win.

01:14:37.386 --> 01:14:43.011
I mean, on one hand, yes, obviously,

01:14:43.051 --> 01:14:43.770
DAOs are different.

01:14:43.791 --> 01:14:44.551
DAOs are unique.

01:14:44.731 --> 01:14:45.591
Maybe there should be some

01:14:45.672 --> 01:14:46.813
different default treatment.

01:14:47.234 --> 01:14:49.814
But the fact is that every organization

01:14:50.956 --> 01:14:52.597
for the last several decades

01:14:52.637 --> 01:14:53.559
and even hundreds of years

01:14:54.378 --> 01:14:55.420
is unique and different.

01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:56.721
And you give organizations

01:14:56.742 --> 01:14:57.922
doing all kinds of different stuff.

01:14:58.443 --> 01:14:59.423
But the law has been applied

01:14:59.503 --> 01:15:00.284
about the same way.

01:15:00.404 --> 01:15:02.006
Like either you don't register a company,

01:15:02.027 --> 01:15:03.307
in which case you get this treatment,

01:15:03.707 --> 01:15:04.989
or you do register a company,

01:15:05.010 --> 01:15:05.850
in which case you get the

01:15:05.890 --> 01:15:06.891
treatment afforded to that

01:15:06.992 --> 01:15:08.372
company type that you're registering.

01:15:08.832 --> 01:15:10.175
So I'm biased because that's

01:15:10.194 --> 01:15:10.996
what we're working on.

01:15:11.036 --> 01:15:12.337
But I don't see any reason

01:15:12.377 --> 01:15:14.338
why that can't be the way things go.

01:15:14.761 --> 01:15:14.940
Yeah,

01:15:14.980 --> 01:15:16.862
I think the key word there is

01:15:16.921 --> 01:15:18.643
sufficient decentralization.

01:15:18.662 --> 01:15:21.484
A lot of DAOs will face a

01:15:21.524 --> 01:15:23.565
cold start problem with a

01:15:23.666 --> 01:15:26.346
few individuals leading it, right?

01:15:26.948 --> 01:15:29.029
But I guess the real question is,

01:15:29.729 --> 01:15:32.289
how can we demonstrate or

01:15:32.350 --> 01:15:33.671
how can they prove that

01:15:33.730 --> 01:15:34.692
there is a sufficient

01:15:34.771 --> 01:15:36.273
pathway to decentralization

01:15:36.592 --> 01:15:38.554
and hold them accountable to that?

01:15:39.645 --> 01:15:41.407
And as long as that happens

01:15:41.488 --> 01:15:43.850
within whatever timeframes,

01:15:43.990 --> 01:15:45.091
I think it's okay.

01:15:45.752 --> 01:15:48.197
But if that doesn't happen and, hey,

01:15:48.277 --> 01:15:49.297
it's like the five people

01:15:49.337 --> 01:15:51.600
who started a DAO and we're

01:15:51.621 --> 01:15:52.681
going to keep control for

01:15:52.703 --> 01:15:54.064
the next three to five years,

01:15:54.305 --> 01:15:54.685
that's an issue.

01:15:56.505 --> 01:15:58.225
Yeah, yeah, interesting.

01:15:59.046 --> 01:15:59.847
All right,

01:15:59.868 --> 01:16:00.927
we're getting close to the end

01:16:00.948 --> 01:16:01.509
of the show,

01:16:01.748 --> 01:16:03.649
so I want to ask you just an

01:16:03.770 --> 01:16:04.850
open-ended question,

01:16:04.890 --> 01:16:06.171
a couple open-ended questions,

01:16:06.271 --> 01:16:08.654
and I'll share the questions at once,

01:16:09.194 --> 01:16:10.215
and then you can share

01:16:10.234 --> 01:16:11.216
whatever is on your mind.

01:16:11.235 --> 01:16:11.957
Okay.

01:16:12.657 --> 01:16:14.318
So the first thing is,

01:16:14.858 --> 01:16:17.019
what advice do you have for

01:16:17.559 --> 01:16:19.760
people starting DAOs today?

01:16:20.220 --> 01:16:21.079
So if someone came up to you

01:16:21.140 --> 01:16:22.301
on the street and said, hey,

01:16:22.341 --> 01:16:23.520
I'm starting a DAO later,

01:16:24.121 --> 01:16:25.202
what's your advice for me?

01:16:25.481 --> 01:16:26.021
What would it be?

01:16:26.622 --> 01:16:28.502
And then two is relatedly,

01:16:29.243 --> 01:16:30.162
if you have any DAOs,

01:16:30.182 --> 01:16:31.243
you'd recommend people

01:16:31.264 --> 01:16:33.003
check out who are new to the DAO space.

01:16:33.104 --> 01:16:34.425
Maybe that could be part of

01:16:34.465 --> 01:16:35.645
your advice to this person

01:16:35.744 --> 01:16:37.945
on the street is some

01:16:38.006 --> 01:16:39.806
examples of cool things to check out.

01:16:39.846 --> 01:16:40.127
If you're

01:16:40.527 --> 01:16:42.207
just looking to see what

01:16:42.247 --> 01:16:44.387
DAOs are like and experience some DAOs.

01:16:45.087 --> 01:16:47.088
So what advice and what DAOs

01:16:47.128 --> 01:16:47.908
would you recommend that

01:16:47.948 --> 01:16:48.569
people check out?

01:16:49.649 --> 01:16:50.770
For sure.

01:16:51.050 --> 01:16:51.390
Okay,

01:16:51.489 --> 01:16:53.871
so I would say the first and most

01:16:54.030 --> 01:16:56.192
important thing that anyone

01:16:56.212 --> 01:16:57.051
who wants to start a DAO,

01:16:57.551 --> 01:16:58.853
develop a clear mission and

01:16:58.893 --> 01:16:59.453
a vision first.

01:17:00.222 --> 01:17:01.345
Because that really is going

01:17:01.364 --> 01:17:02.926
to be the anchor that you

01:17:02.947 --> 01:17:05.911
can always refer to in the community.

01:17:06.112 --> 01:17:08.354
And in times of turmoil and trouble,

01:17:08.935 --> 01:17:10.637
it's something that you can just be like,

01:17:10.677 --> 01:17:11.099
hey, guys,

01:17:11.139 --> 01:17:13.180
this is what we're aiming towards.

01:17:13.921 --> 01:17:15.203
Let's make sure that we get on track.

01:17:16.305 --> 01:17:17.164
The second thing would be

01:17:17.305 --> 01:17:18.966
transparency in terms of

01:17:19.286 --> 01:17:20.025
spending the funds.

01:17:21.686 --> 01:17:23.568
Let's keep in mind that this

01:17:23.807 --> 01:17:25.608
is consumer retail capital,

01:17:27.088 --> 01:17:28.189
and it's really important

01:17:28.208 --> 01:17:29.670
to be respectful of

01:17:31.154 --> 01:17:33.396
how and where that money is being spent.

01:17:33.636 --> 01:17:34.917
And as long as you can sort

01:17:34.938 --> 01:17:35.698
of demonstrate that,

01:17:35.818 --> 01:17:36.578
I think people are

01:17:36.599 --> 01:17:38.880
generally okay with where

01:17:38.920 --> 01:17:39.560
the money will go.

01:17:39.581 --> 01:17:42.302
The third thing would be

01:17:43.384 --> 01:17:45.385
open to feedback and criticism.

01:17:45.484 --> 01:17:47.405
I think there's a lot of egos and doubts,

01:17:47.707 --> 01:17:49.368
but if you can demonstrate

01:17:49.608 --> 01:17:51.529
that you are open to

01:17:51.548 --> 01:17:52.909
feedback and that feedback

01:17:53.230 --> 01:17:56.012
is incorporated into the

01:17:56.672 --> 01:17:57.573
governance structure,

01:17:58.694 --> 01:17:59.658
I think people will

01:17:59.698 --> 01:18:01.181
appreciate that for sure.

01:18:01.842 --> 01:18:04.208
So the top three takes, I guess,

01:18:04.309 --> 01:18:05.773
for starting a DAO.

01:18:08.333 --> 01:18:08.854
Let me think.

01:18:08.953 --> 01:18:11.675
In terms of tools or people

01:18:11.694 --> 01:18:15.037
being into DAOs, I think, again, Snapshot,

01:18:15.197 --> 01:18:15.756
great tool.

01:18:15.837 --> 01:18:17.318
It's such a multipurpose thing,

01:18:17.377 --> 01:18:18.337
very easy to use,

01:18:18.377 --> 01:18:19.479
doesn't require a lot of

01:18:19.538 --> 01:18:20.378
technical knowledge,

01:18:21.059 --> 01:18:22.000
and you can just get

01:18:22.079 --> 01:18:23.300
bootstrapped pretty quickly.

01:18:23.319 --> 01:18:25.381
I think I've even seen a

01:18:25.740 --> 01:18:28.721
soccer team run who's on rotation.

01:18:30.643 --> 01:18:31.582
you know in their sort of

01:18:31.643 --> 01:18:34.184
like little um weekly games

01:18:34.965 --> 01:18:36.125
run on snapshot so it's

01:18:36.204 --> 01:18:37.206
it's pretty fun it's pretty

01:18:37.225 --> 01:18:38.746
interesting I really like

01:18:39.065 --> 01:18:40.766
um joke race which is

01:18:40.827 --> 01:18:44.309
another on-chain um tool I

01:18:44.349 --> 01:18:46.128
think um there are some

01:18:46.149 --> 01:18:46.729
pretty interesting

01:18:46.789 --> 01:18:47.729
experiments happening with

01:18:47.750 --> 01:18:48.590
that at the moment so

01:18:48.630 --> 01:18:50.890
purple dow um they are

01:18:50.970 --> 01:18:52.372
currently holding their

01:18:53.543 --> 01:18:54.884
council elections on it.

01:18:55.163 --> 01:18:57.545
So I would recommend checking that out.

01:18:58.864 --> 01:18:59.104
Um,

01:18:59.545 --> 01:19:02.826
and I guess from an academic point of

01:19:02.865 --> 01:19:03.206
view, um,

01:19:04.025 --> 01:19:06.046
I would recommend people look

01:19:06.067 --> 01:19:07.907
into meta governance, meta gov.

01:19:08.728 --> 01:19:10.927
Um, they are a great organization, um,

01:19:12.689 --> 01:19:14.588
who really specialize in

01:19:14.649 --> 01:19:15.569
some of the more esoteric

01:19:15.609 --> 01:19:16.628
thinking around DAOs.

01:19:17.729 --> 01:19:19.689
And, um, yeah,

01:19:20.550 --> 01:19:22.211
I guess a couple more things let's think,

01:19:22.690 --> 01:19:22.831
um,

01:19:24.163 --> 01:19:26.664
Yeah, and DAO Theory, Green Pill podcast,

01:19:26.965 --> 01:19:28.546
Kevin Iwerke, I think is amazing.

01:19:28.605 --> 01:19:30.305
So that will give you sort

01:19:30.365 --> 01:19:33.268
of a green take on how DAOs

01:19:33.347 --> 01:19:35.948
can provide specifically social impact.

01:19:36.948 --> 01:19:39.789
And one that is, I guess,

01:19:39.810 --> 01:19:40.831
a little bit more creative

01:19:40.890 --> 01:19:42.110
and not so serious,

01:19:42.131 --> 01:19:45.212
I would recommend checking out HyperSub.

01:19:45.391 --> 01:19:46.472
So HyperSub is...

01:19:47.193 --> 01:19:48.634
again really interesting not

01:19:48.833 --> 01:19:50.494
a dow but it is um

01:19:52.077 --> 01:19:52.877
basically people with

01:19:52.917 --> 01:19:54.398
subscriptions and they're

01:19:54.417 --> 01:19:55.538
typically artists or

01:19:55.599 --> 01:19:57.980
creators and communities

01:19:58.020 --> 01:19:58.921
form around them and

01:19:58.940 --> 01:19:59.721
they're really really

01:19:59.782 --> 01:20:01.443
interesting and are they a

01:20:01.502 --> 01:20:02.623
doubt or are they not they

01:20:02.663 --> 01:20:03.385
are definitely a group of

01:20:03.404 --> 01:20:04.324
people coordinating around

01:20:04.364 --> 01:20:06.587
a goal so yeah those are

01:20:06.606 --> 01:20:07.768
the things I would recommend

01:20:09.393 --> 01:20:09.853
Interesting.

01:20:09.953 --> 01:20:11.574
Yeah, those are great recommendations.

01:20:11.635 --> 01:20:12.916
Yeah, that's a good point.

01:20:12.996 --> 01:20:15.417
Is every newsletter and its

01:20:15.457 --> 01:20:17.881
followers a DAO in some way?

01:20:18.280 --> 01:20:19.082
At least once you start

01:20:19.162 --> 01:20:20.143
putting things on chain.

01:20:21.243 --> 01:20:21.743
I mean,

01:20:21.884 --> 01:20:22.984
like a sub stack with 7,000 or

01:20:22.984 --> 01:20:24.126
30,000 users, that's a community, right?

01:20:27.485 --> 01:20:28.867
Yeah, at least a community.

01:20:28.926 --> 01:20:29.186
Yeah.

01:20:29.306 --> 01:20:30.207
And then it's just where do

01:20:30.247 --> 01:20:32.068
you cross the line and go

01:20:32.108 --> 01:20:34.328
from being a community to being a DAO?

01:20:35.869 --> 01:20:37.770
And maybe as soon as money is involved.

01:20:37.990 --> 01:20:40.252
I mean, I think for a lot of communities,

01:20:40.372 --> 01:20:42.073
once there's a treasury or

01:20:42.113 --> 01:20:44.014
a need for a treasury or an

01:20:44.033 --> 01:20:45.194
opportunity for a treasury,

01:20:45.255 --> 01:20:46.494
I think then you usually say, okay,

01:20:46.515 --> 01:20:47.576
we got to just introduce a

01:20:47.615 --> 01:20:48.456
little bit of structure

01:20:48.496 --> 01:20:50.417
here and do it as a DAO.

01:20:51.677 --> 01:20:51.877
Yeah,

01:20:52.057 --> 01:20:53.578
I think it's a really great point to

01:20:54.118 --> 01:20:54.779
end on.

01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:55.220
Yeah.

01:20:55.864 --> 01:20:56.125
Cool.

01:20:56.664 --> 01:20:56.985
All right.

01:20:57.206 --> 01:20:58.886
Well, Arnold, this has been awesome.

01:20:59.367 --> 01:21:00.787
Before we close,

01:21:01.427 --> 01:21:02.847
where can people find you

01:21:03.069 --> 01:21:04.969
and Lighthouse and or

01:21:05.009 --> 01:21:05.930
anything else you'd like to

01:21:05.970 --> 01:21:07.890
share on the web and on social?

01:21:09.076 --> 01:21:12.698
Yeah, you can go to lighthouse.cx,

01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:17.122
and we have an Android and iOS app,

01:21:17.162 --> 01:21:18.582
so we've coded for everyone.

01:21:18.682 --> 01:21:19.743
They have a feature parody,

01:21:19.783 --> 01:21:21.125
so we haven't forgotten about you.

01:21:21.985 --> 01:21:27.128
And my handle on Warpcast is 1A35E1,

01:21:27.689 --> 01:21:30.511
which is the hexadecimal code for blue.

01:21:31.152 --> 01:21:32.693
I wanted to be anonymous at one point,

01:21:32.712 --> 01:21:34.774
but then that got thrown out the window.

01:21:34.835 --> 01:21:36.935
So yeah, that's the reason.

01:21:38.417 --> 01:21:39.738
That's why I always called

01:21:39.778 --> 01:21:41.738
Arnold Blue until about

01:21:41.779 --> 01:21:45.439
today because of his nickname there.

01:21:45.460 --> 01:21:47.121
Awesome.

01:21:47.220 --> 01:21:47.400
Well,

01:21:47.440 --> 01:21:49.261
please go look up Lighthouse and look

01:21:49.322 --> 01:21:50.002
up Arnold.

01:21:50.502 --> 01:21:52.682
Find me on Farcaster as well

01:21:52.842 --> 01:21:54.104
at The Thriller or I'm

01:21:54.304 --> 01:21:57.244
ZeroXThriller on X. And

01:21:57.305 --> 01:21:59.966
MyDAO is MyDAODS on Twitter

01:22:00.046 --> 01:22:00.966
for MyDAO Directory

01:22:01.006 --> 01:22:03.167
Services and MyDAO.org, M-I-D-A-O.org.

01:22:05.729 --> 01:22:05.948
Again,

01:22:05.969 --> 01:22:08.430
a quick ad before we close for MyDAO.

01:22:08.829 --> 01:22:10.310
MyDAO, my company,

01:22:10.390 --> 01:22:11.530
provides legal entity

01:22:11.551 --> 01:22:13.551
solutions for DAOs and Web3.

01:22:13.692 --> 01:22:14.653
If you're thinking about

01:22:15.113 --> 01:22:17.554
legal entity solution for your project,

01:22:18.154 --> 01:22:18.854
please reach out.

01:22:18.875 --> 01:22:20.015
We also have a network of

01:22:20.095 --> 01:22:21.376
lawyers and other

01:22:21.935 --> 01:22:22.695
professional service

01:22:22.735 --> 01:22:23.697
providers all over the

01:22:23.737 --> 01:22:24.997
world who can help you with

01:22:25.337 --> 01:22:26.597
tax advice and other

01:22:27.198 --> 01:22:28.398
professional advice related

01:22:28.439 --> 01:22:30.158
to your web3 project if you

01:22:30.238 --> 01:22:31.340
are a lawyer please reach

01:22:31.479 --> 01:22:32.899
out or another professional

01:22:32.939 --> 01:22:34.280
service provider please

01:22:34.320 --> 01:22:35.581
reach out about being added

01:22:35.661 --> 01:22:38.521
to our network again arnold

01:22:38.822 --> 01:22:39.783
thank you so much for

01:22:39.823 --> 01:22:41.443
coming on the show thank

01:22:41.483 --> 01:22:43.083
you so much for having me adam cheers

01:22:43.868 --> 01:22:44.247
You got it.

01:22:44.268 --> 01:22:44.547
Cheers.

01:22:44.608 --> 01:22:45.368
Quick disclaimer,

01:22:45.809 --> 01:22:47.288
none of this is ever legal

01:22:47.668 --> 01:22:49.189
advice or tax advice or

01:22:49.250 --> 01:22:50.449
financial advice or any

01:22:50.489 --> 01:22:52.470
kind of professional advice.

01:22:53.051 --> 01:22:54.631
And finally, to the audience,

01:22:54.891 --> 01:22:56.231
are you thinking about starting a DAO?

01:22:57.072 --> 01:22:57.613
Just DAO it.