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(MUSIC) Society Builders pave the way to a

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better world, to a better day, a

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united approach to building a new society.

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Join the conversation for social transformation society builders

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society builders, with your host, Duane Varan

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(Duane) Welcome to another exciting

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episode of Society Builders.

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And thanks for joining the

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conversation for social transformation.

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Well, I've got a blockbuster episode for you today.

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Today we're continuing in our sequence of

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episodes exploring the science of depolarization.

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And I'm so excited because today we're interviewing Dr.

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Peter Coleman, who's one of the leading

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authorities in the world on how to

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bring antagonistic groups closer together.

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He's the author of hundreds of

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articles, ten books, numerous awards.

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I mean, this is THE guy most in

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the know on this science of depolarization.

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Peter's also Director of the world famous

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'Difficult Conversations Lab' at Columbia University.

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We'll talk a little bit more

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about that later in the podcast.

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And his latest book, 'The Way Out: How

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to Overcome Toxic Polarization', provides an amazing summary

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of his research in this arena.

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So Peter.

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We're so excited.

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Thanks for joining our conversation

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and welcome to Society Builders.

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(Peter) Duane thank you for inviting me.

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I'm eager to have a conversation with your community.

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(Duane) Fantastic. Thanks.

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So, Peter, let's start with this idea of polarization.

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What is polarization?

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(Peter) So polarization is just a phenomenon we see

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in science when, for example, particles move either

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towards or away from two different poles.

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That's essentially what it is.

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It's just a natural phenomenon that

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exists in terms of political polarization.

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It is when partisans or political parties move towards

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or away from each other on how they feel

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towards one another, on how they view certain issues.

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And polarization, in my view, is not a bad thing,

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particularly in two party systems like in the US.

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You want to have passionate true believers who

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believe in progress and change and also believe

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in sort of protecting the status quo in

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conversation, pushing each other forward.

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In fact, in the 1950s in the US.,

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there was a lack of polarization or distinction

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between the political parties and people were sort

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of saying, 'we need some choice here'.

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Well, now we're in a state that I call TOXIC polarization,

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which is sort of a phenomenon from complexity science, where you

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get stuck in what we call an attractor pattern that is

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very difficult to break out of, but it is filled with

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sort of enmity for the others hate.

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Love for the in group, hate for the out group.

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A sense of contempt.

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And that has been boiling and running for

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about 50 to 60 years in the US.

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Elsewhere as well.

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But it's particularly bad here right now.

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So I distinguish toxic polarization from other

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forms of political polarization, which, again, can

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be useful and constructive phenomenon.

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But when we get stuck in patterns like this, it can

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take on a life of its own and become destructive.

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(Duane) I think one of the things you talk about in

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your book that's really interesting is when you look at

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the lack of people from different political parties marrying one

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another is at the highest level it's been since 1973.

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I mean, that's pretty phenomenal. (Peter) Yeah, it's true.

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It's true that over the last several decades,

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we've gone from about 25% what we would

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call mixed political marriages to more about 10%.

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So there's a steep decline in that.

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And as you can understand, what comes from mixed

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political families is the children are raised in a

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space where they hear different points of view and

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they hear people disagreeing constructively, and that leads to

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their sort of political tolerance down the road.

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If you have less and less of that,

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you have less and less political tolerance.

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You grow up with one point of view, and either you

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adopt that point of view or you react against it. Right.

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So it's a basic thing in social

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science we call a cross-cutting structure.

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If you have marriages with mixed political connections, if

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you go to schools or you have friends that

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have different political points of view, if you are

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in sports teams, if you're in religious communities that

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have mixed political views, those create a sense of

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tolerance, kind of higher sense of identity and connection

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to people beyond politics.

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When those things start to disappear, which

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is what we're seeing in the US.,

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particularly around marriages, it is a cause for

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great concern because it's much easier to vilify

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an entire group of people if you have

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very few connections with them.

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(Duane) Yeah, you also use the example in the

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book of Botswana and the deliberate policy towards

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depolarization that the government adopted there of forcing

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public servants to serve in different regions around

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the country, basically kind of creating that mixing

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up of people's, contact with people from other

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tribes, other clans, et cetera.

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Really fascinating.

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(Peter) Yeah, it's true.

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They got independence from the colonial powers about

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the same time as Angola and Mozambique did.

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And Angola and Mozambique sort of broke out

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into ethnic tribal warfare that was very violent.

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And Botswana was very worried about that because they,

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in some ways had the same kinds of political

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conditions and origins that these other countries in Africa

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had, were now an independent movement as well.

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And they feared that kind of violence.

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So they imparted this basically a strategy that

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requires civil servants, which I think is 45%

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of the population of the workforce, to move

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every seven years to some other part of

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Botswana where there are different ethnic groups.

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And some account that policy for the fact that it's

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one of the most peaceful and most prosperous, thriving nations

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in Africa and has been to date, been able to

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sort of avoid that kind of civil war, civil violence.

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So it's an interesting phenomenon. Right.

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I mean, it's inconvenient for people.

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Imagine if someone said to you, all right,

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every seven years you got to move to

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wherever somewhere else in the US.

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Or somewhere else. Right.

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It's not a small thing.

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On the other hand, in terms of the greater good,

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it creates contact and ambassadors that go to places.

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These are doctors and lawyers and teachers and engineers

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who travel, bring their families, and it ensures a

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kind of integration and contact across these ethnic differences

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that makes a difference over time.

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(Duane) You use another example in the Book of Costa Rica.

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And in Costa Rica, the government there adopted

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a policy of mandatory peace education in schools.

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And the incredible results of that, particularly when

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you compare Costa Rica to its neighboring countries,

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just how positively that's contributed to the maintenance

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of peace in the country.

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Pretty remarkable story. (Peter) Yeah. Imagine that.

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I mean, Costa Rica, if you think

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of where it's at and the neighborhood

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that it's thrived in, it's pretty extraordinary.

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It is in the sort of alleyway of the

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drug cartels supply and demand to the US.

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I mean, what's interesting about Costa Rica is they

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came out of a horrible civil war in 1948.

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Thousands of deaths, a bloody civil war.

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And there was something about that shock, the audacity of

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that problem, that really made them pause and reset.

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And they really started to deinvest in

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military and invest in business and the

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ecology and environment and tourism and education.

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And they intentionally, eventually mandated peace

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education in all the schools.

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And they believed that that was necessary in

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order to grow a more peaceful culture, right?

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That they'd come out of a period of

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violence and war like many other nations.

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But they really wanted to socialize their kids,

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to be more tolerant and respectful and have

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some conflict resolution skills and attitudes.

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So they really believed that they grew that

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over time, and that's allowed them to be

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a more resilient community in this difficult neighborhood.

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(Duane) So, Peter, you're the director of the world

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famous Difficult Conversations Lab at Columbia University.

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I mean, this is truly the frontier

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in studying the science of depolarization.

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Now, for the benefit of the audience, what

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happens at the Difficult Conversation Lab is that

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Peter and his research team conduct experiments around

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different approaches to polarized conversations.

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So people come in.

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I mean, they're really human subjects, so to speak.

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They come into the lab, and

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they get allocated into different conditions.

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In one cell, for example, people may read a

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fictitious news story that is highly polarizing and then enter

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into a conversation about it, while in another, they might

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read a story that is much more nuanced.

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So in this way, the research team can tease out the

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effect of the way news is reported in this example.

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And so, through conducting these experiments, patiently

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teasing out one variable at a time,

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they discover principles for effective depolarization.

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So, Peter, tell us about the

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lab and what you've been finding.

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I mean, what happens, for example, when you ramp

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up the rhetoric and then get a conversation going?

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(Peter) So people come into these conversations when

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pro/con is presented armed for battle really.

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They want to come in and they have

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their talking points and they're ready to go.

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That's basically an oversimplification

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of the world, right?

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You take something like immigration

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policy, immensely complicated phenomenon, right?

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Legal dimensions, moral

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dimensions, economic dimensions.

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But if you do a pro/con perspective, then

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you are framing this as a dichotomy, right?

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When it's not, it's a complex set of issues.

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So if you take the same information, which is

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what we do in the lab, and present it

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as a set of complex decisions or dilemmas, right?

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You say to people immigration is a complex set of

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sub issues and you present the information like that.

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You present the same content but you frame it

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not as either or, but you frame it as

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a set of dilemmas that we have to navigate.

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They're more willing to have the conversation,

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they're more willing to continue the conversation.

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They feel much better about themselves and the other.

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Their understanding of the issue becomes more nuanced.

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They generate statements afterwards.

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So that's the major finding we have is

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whatever you can do to complicate people's oversimplified

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understanding of moral issues or divisive issues.

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What the news tends to do

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is oversimplify and present two sides.

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Politicians do that automatically.

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Activists do that as well.

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We oversimplified them and us their position

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versus our position to mobilize their base.

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And again, there's utility in that.

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But the result is that the population

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becomes simplistic in our understanding and our

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communications about these complex issues.

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So what we've been studying is how do you do that?

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How do you bring people together and create conditions

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where they can think in a more nuanced way,

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feel more positive and negative experiences as you have

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these conversations behave in ways both advocating for your

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position but also asking questions and listening.

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So how do you mix it up?

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How do you stay in this more nuanced

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mode of understanding and communication over time?

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Sometimes it's the process that we walk them through.

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We actually will have them go through a

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process where they either learn about each other's

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story first before they get into divisive issues.

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So anything that can basically

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obstruct their oversimplification, right?

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Again, if I know you're on the other side of an

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issue, I may make all kinds of assumptions about you as

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a human being before we even have a conversation.

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And you can also have processes that elicit a

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more nuanced relationship or communication process that moves people

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more into what we call dialogue and away from

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debate, at least initially, so that they learn about

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each other and they learn about the issues in

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ways that, again, are more human before you get

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into the political differences.

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They're both necessary, right?

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In a society like ours, we ultimately

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need to debate and make decisions.

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But if you do that prematurely,

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then it's a game to win.

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It's a cognitive process that's very narrow.

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And so you have to sort of build up

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enough of a human respect relationship in order to

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be able to have conversations that are both humanized

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and ultimately where decisions can be made.

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(Duane) Yeah, you talk about that in

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00:13:29,685 --> 00:13:32,106
the book about discussion versus debate.

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To a Baha'i, the concept of discussion is like

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what we would call 'consultation', hearing, making sure

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that you're hearing every view, not having a

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sense of where the answer is, where the

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00:13:42,409 --> 00:13:45,352
remedy is, searching in everybody's comments for that.

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But, you know, as a society, we're very

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deeply engrained in the idea of debate.

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It's like you're taught to succeed in business

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and everything in life by winning the debate.

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Like everything is about framing the decision making

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00:13:59,821 --> 00:14:03,110
process as a debate rather than a consultation.

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00:14:03,111 --> 00:14:03,712
(Peter) It's true.

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00:14:03,713 --> 00:14:06,544
I mean, I was trained in debate in high school, right?

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There's a purpose to it, but it's inherent

293
00:14:09,095 --> 00:14:11,894
to our politics and our political processes.

294
00:14:11,895 --> 00:14:15,076
But it's more of a game to play. Right.

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00:14:15,077 --> 00:14:16,228
That's what I mean by it being

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00:14:16,229 --> 00:14:18,244
a sort of narrow cognitive process.

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00:14:18,245 --> 00:14:20,260
If you and I are debating an issue,

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00:14:20,261 --> 00:14:22,948
my objective is to win this argument, to

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00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:24,842
score points and to win the argument.

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00:14:24,843 --> 00:14:27,048
And to do so, I do listen carefully to

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00:14:27,049 --> 00:14:29,128
what you're saying, but I'm looking for flaws in

302
00:14:29,129 --> 00:14:31,598
your logic or your argument that I can weaponize

303
00:14:31,599 --> 00:14:34,550
and say, AHA, you're wrong, I'm right.

304
00:14:34,551 --> 00:14:36,296
And so it is this kind of game

305
00:14:36,297 --> 00:14:39,372
to play and there's rewards to that and

306
00:14:39,373 --> 00:14:41,596
satisfaction to that and there's value in it.

307
00:14:41,597 --> 00:14:44,796
But it's not a process of discovery, right?

308
00:14:44,797 --> 00:14:47,356
And dialogue, as we call it the peace building

309
00:14:47,357 --> 00:14:50,124
world, is more of a process of learning.

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00:14:50,125 --> 00:14:52,688
And so when you start with your story and

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00:14:52,689 --> 00:14:55,312
I listen to your story or you listen to

312
00:14:55,313 --> 00:14:58,432
my story and then we talk about how the

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00:14:58,433 --> 00:15:03,072
issue under discussion is important to us, then not

314
00:15:03,073 --> 00:15:06,036
only do you discover things about the other, right?

315
00:15:06,037 --> 00:15:08,442
And their world and their life and the essence

316
00:15:08,443 --> 00:15:11,204
of where their attitudes come from, you learn a

317
00:15:11,205 --> 00:15:13,828
lot about the issues and that there are very

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00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:15,720
different ways to experience these issues.

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00:15:15,721 --> 00:15:17,848
And oftentimes you learn about yourself

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00:15:17,849 --> 00:15:19,838
if you're really in a dialogue.

321
00:15:19,839 --> 00:15:23,032
You think, this issue for me is important because my

322
00:15:23,033 --> 00:15:26,200
brother was a seminarian and he was really passionate about

323
00:15:26,201 --> 00:15:28,716
this and I've never made that connection before. Right.

324
00:15:28,717 --> 00:15:31,266
So that is an opening discovery

325
00:15:31,267 --> 00:15:35,036
process that rarely happens in debate. Right?

326
00:15:35,037 --> 00:15:36,412
There's no room for it.

327
00:15:36,413 --> 00:15:39,360
But our society is saturated in

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00:15:39,361 --> 00:15:42,096
debate as the primary way to

329
00:15:42,097 --> 00:15:44,810
certainly discuss politics or political differences.

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00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:58,676
(Duane) Beyond the complicating the narrative idea, what

331
00:15:58,677 --> 00:16:01,028
other things have we learned about how

332
00:16:01,029 --> 00:16:04,410
to best depolarize antagonistic groups?

333
00:16:04,411 --> 00:16:05,832
(Peter) Well, we've learned a lot.

334
00:16:05,833 --> 00:16:08,568
When I talk about this state of toxic polarization, it

335
00:16:08,569 --> 00:16:12,056
is a problem that's bigger than any of us alone. Right.

336
00:16:12,057 --> 00:16:13,208
It is what we would

337
00:16:13,209 --> 00:16:16,104
call a biopsychosocial structural problem.

338
00:16:16,105 --> 00:16:18,716
In that way, it's like a bad addiction, right.

339
00:16:18,717 --> 00:16:20,786
Because it gets in our neurological structures

340
00:16:20,787 --> 00:16:22,754
how we process information and don't.

341
00:16:22,755 --> 00:16:24,178
It gets in our psychology.

342
00:16:24,179 --> 00:16:26,866
It affects our relationships, who we're comfortable

343
00:16:26,867 --> 00:16:28,428
being with, who we're not comfortable being

344
00:16:28,429 --> 00:16:29,952
with, where we want to travel, where

345
00:16:29,953 --> 00:16:32,992
we want to shop, internet media, right?

346
00:16:32,993 --> 00:16:36,150
So there are many forces that are effecting

347
00:16:36,151 --> 00:16:38,992
this pull that pits us against each other.

348
00:16:38,993 --> 00:16:40,592
It's something that's in the water

349
00:16:40,593 --> 00:16:42,512
in which we swim, right?

350
00:16:42,513 --> 00:16:44,836
So we have to recognize that and understand

351
00:16:44,837 --> 00:16:47,642
how do you affect change at different levels?

352
00:16:47,643 --> 00:16:50,788
And then if you recognize that there are, what I

353
00:16:50,789 --> 00:16:53,048
try to articulate in the book I wrote, the Way

354
00:16:53,049 --> 00:16:57,976
Out, is sort of five basic principles of evidence based

355
00:16:57,977 --> 00:17:03,048
processes that help us basically loosen the constraints of the

356
00:17:03,049 --> 00:17:05,288
system in which we're embedded, right.

357
00:17:05,289 --> 00:17:07,838
The divisions that are pulling us apart

358
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,356
or pitting us against each other.

359
00:17:09,357 --> 00:17:11,372
How do you loosen their impact on

360
00:17:11,373 --> 00:17:14,130
us, our relationships and our communities?

361
00:17:14,131 --> 00:17:17,089
And so there are these five evidence based practices.

362
00:17:17,090 --> 00:17:19,068
One of them is to complicate, right?

363
00:17:19,069 --> 00:17:21,205
That you really want to try to intentionally

364
00:17:21,206 --> 00:17:23,791
complicate your understanding of the other side of

365
00:17:23,792 --> 00:17:26,726
these issues, of your own reactions.

366
00:17:26,727 --> 00:17:28,016
So that is one of them.

367
00:17:28,017 --> 00:17:30,182
But another one that I just want to emphasize

368
00:17:30,183 --> 00:17:34,036
because I think it's in some ways counterintuitive and

369
00:17:34,037 --> 00:17:37,730
less well known, is the power of movement.

370
00:17:37,731 --> 00:17:39,280
So this comes from research.

371
00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:41,810
(Duane) Very interesting.

372
00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:44,520
Let's talk about movement. Yeah.

373
00:17:44,521 --> 00:17:48,008
(Peter) So this comes from the idea that we have what

374
00:17:48,009 --> 00:17:51,080
we call neuroplasticity in our brains and how we process

375
00:17:51,081 --> 00:17:54,702
information, and that shaking it up sometimes helps.

376
00:17:54,703 --> 00:17:55,352
Right.

377
00:17:55,353 --> 00:17:57,490
We've done research and there's,

378
00:17:57,491 --> 00:17:58,738
again research on neuroscience.

379
00:17:58,739 --> 00:18:02,204
There's research with chimps and humans on this.

380
00:18:02,205 --> 00:18:06,316
What we find from neuropsychological research is that

381
00:18:06,317 --> 00:18:11,232
when people move together, ideally outside or side

382
00:18:11,233 --> 00:18:14,086
by side, they study combat troops that march

383
00:18:14,087 --> 00:18:17,632
together, they study dance troops that move together,

384
00:18:17,633 --> 00:18:20,112
marching bands that move together.

385
00:18:20,113 --> 00:18:22,058
When people move in sync,

386
00:18:22,059 --> 00:18:24,074
there's a physiological connection.

387
00:18:24,075 --> 00:18:27,002
They think it's related to mirror neurons,

388
00:18:27,003 --> 00:18:29,828
which are kind of mimicking each other.

389
00:18:29,829 --> 00:18:32,858
And it creates in us a sense of connection,

390
00:18:32,859 --> 00:18:37,758
even a feeling of compassion and cooperation that isn't

391
00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:40,830
going to solve these problems, these differences.

392
00:18:40,831 --> 00:18:42,936
But it is a leg up. Right.

393
00:18:42,937 --> 00:18:46,536
If we're stuck in how we see or experience each other,

394
00:18:46,537 --> 00:18:51,436
then going for a walk outside, side by side can help.

395
00:18:51,437 --> 00:18:53,458
And I recommend that to people whose brother-

396
00:18:53,459 --> 00:18:56,354
in-law they feel are insane and stuck.

397
00:18:56,355 --> 00:18:58,336
Invite them to take a walk outside.

398
00:18:58,337 --> 00:19:02,256
There is something about movement moving together and ideally moving

399
00:19:02,257 --> 00:19:06,368
outside and sort of seeing the same world pass us

400
00:19:06,369 --> 00:19:11,376
that both shakes us up and challenges our assumptions and

401
00:19:11,377 --> 00:19:14,996
helps us connect to one another in a way that

402
00:19:14,997 --> 00:19:17,930
makes it easier to at least agree to disagree.

403
00:19:17,931 --> 00:19:20,778
(Duane) In your book, you talk about one experiment among

404
00:19:20,779 --> 00:19:23,652
many where people just did something as simple as

405
00:19:23,653 --> 00:19:27,048
tapping their finger in synchronization with another person.

406
00:19:27,049 --> 00:19:29,896
The benefits that happens in terms of people

407
00:19:29,897 --> 00:19:32,952
becoming more synchronized as a result of even

408
00:19:32,953 --> 00:19:34,696
doing something as simple as that.

409
00:19:34,697 --> 00:19:39,746
You also talk about the Soviet American peace negotiations

410
00:19:39,747 --> 00:19:42,748
during the nuclear kind of like pact discussions and

411
00:19:42,749 --> 00:19:44,988
how when they'd hit an impasse, they'd learn that

412
00:19:44,989 --> 00:19:47,218
just going for a walk out in Camp David

413
00:19:47,219 --> 00:19:49,324
or whatever, just a walk, would help them kind

414
00:19:49,325 --> 00:19:51,952
of like break through that impasse that they had.

415
00:19:51,953 --> 00:19:55,478
(Peter) Yeah, it's something that intuitively, I think diplomats

416
00:19:55,479 --> 00:19:57,536
came to in and of their own. Right.

417
00:19:57,537 --> 00:20:01,136
They would be stuck in these conference rooms with coffee for

418
00:20:01,137 --> 00:20:04,298
days or weeks at a time and feel really stuck.

419
00:20:04,299 --> 00:20:05,732
And at some point somebody would

420
00:20:05,733 --> 00:20:07,748
say, let's just take a walk.

421
00:20:07,749 --> 00:20:10,436
And oftentimes they found that

422
00:20:10,437 --> 00:20:11,876
breakthroughs would happen there.

423
00:20:11,877 --> 00:20:14,072
There is a play and I think a film called

424
00:20:14,073 --> 00:20:17,224
'A Walk in the Woods', which is based on a

425
00:20:17,225 --> 00:20:22,632
nuclear disarmament negotiation that was taking place, which represents that.

426
00:20:22,633 --> 00:20:25,272
But this is something that diplomats understand, right?

427
00:20:25,273 --> 00:20:29,180
There is something to this physical movement that

428
00:20:29,181 --> 00:20:33,436
can just help us reset, reconnect and maybe

429
00:20:33,437 --> 00:20:35,308
begin to think about things or feel about

430
00:20:35,309 --> 00:20:36,540
things in very different ways.

431
00:20:36,541 --> 00:20:39,228
Yeah, but just a little note for our

432
00:20:39,229 --> 00:20:42,694
audience as you think about your own activities.

433
00:20:42,695 --> 00:20:44,678
(Duane) I think one of the takeaways from Peter's

434
00:20:44,679 --> 00:20:47,312
advice here is don't think about just it

435
00:20:47,313 --> 00:20:49,926
being a consultation or a discussion.

436
00:20:49,927 --> 00:20:52,090
Think about some physical activity.

437
00:20:52,091 --> 00:20:54,746
Think about components of it that have physical

438
00:20:54,747 --> 00:20:58,164
activity that get people doing something together.

439
00:20:58,165 --> 00:21:00,676
Not just talking, but actually doing something

440
00:21:00,677 --> 00:21:02,692
together as well because that helps create

441
00:21:02,693 --> 00:21:05,460
this layer of synchronization between people.

442
00:21:05,461 --> 00:21:06,606
Neurophysiologically.

443
00:21:06,607 --> 00:21:07,768
Peter, I should tell you that in

444
00:21:07,769 --> 00:21:09,656
my research we've discovered this as well.

445
00:21:09,657 --> 00:21:12,568
Of course, we're analyzing audience behavior, but one

446
00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:15,272
of the things that we've discovered is that

447
00:21:15,273 --> 00:21:19,020
we can tell when a drama is doing

448
00:21:19,021 --> 00:21:21,682
better or worse based on whether people's facial

449
00:21:21,683 --> 00:21:24,770
expression synchronizes with the actors.

450
00:21:24,771 --> 00:21:25,986
It's that same principle.

451
00:21:25,987 --> 00:21:28,294
It's that when we're in that mode of empathy,

452
00:21:28,295 --> 00:21:32,128
our physiological responses start to harmonize as well.

453
00:21:32,129 --> 00:21:34,806
(Peter) So, interesting, we find that in the typical

454
00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:38,400
conversations lab, we find that when people get

455
00:21:38,401 --> 00:21:41,540
stuck in a disagreement and it's not going

456
00:21:41,541 --> 00:21:45,594
well, their emotional dynamics decouple.

457
00:21:45,595 --> 00:21:48,106
So they feel different things, mostly negativity,

458
00:21:48,107 --> 00:21:50,948
but they don't move together when the

459
00:21:50,949 --> 00:21:54,068
conversations go better, go well, and there

460
00:21:54,069 --> 00:21:57,902
is some kind of understanding that's emerging.

461
00:21:57,903 --> 00:22:01,102
What we see is their emotional dynamics get in sync.

462
00:22:01,103 --> 00:22:03,944
And so I start to feel the same types of

463
00:22:03,945 --> 00:22:07,116
things you're feeling at the same time over time. Right?

464
00:22:07,117 --> 00:22:11,404
So there is this secret dynamic that happens which,

465
00:22:11,405 --> 00:22:14,012
again, you're studying and you have evidence of.

466
00:22:14,013 --> 00:22:16,440
John Gottman finds this in his Love lab.

467
00:22:19,530 --> 00:22:21,526
But we find that in the typical conversation

468
00:22:21,527 --> 00:22:25,398
lab as well, there is something about movement

469
00:22:25,399 --> 00:22:28,768
and eventually getting things done that is important.

470
00:22:28,769 --> 00:22:31,860
If groups that are estranged from one another can meet

471
00:22:31,861 --> 00:22:36,948
and humanize first in dialogue, get a human experience of

472
00:22:36,949 --> 00:22:40,628
the other, and then even begin to talk about an

473
00:22:40,629 --> 00:22:43,492
issue that divides them or that they're different on and

474
00:22:43,493 --> 00:22:45,624
try to come to an understanding of that.

475
00:22:45,625 --> 00:22:47,528
They actually join forces and say,

476
00:22:47,529 --> 00:22:49,416
well, let's do something about that.

477
00:22:49,417 --> 00:22:52,814
If you move from dialogue to debate to action,

478
00:22:52,815 --> 00:22:55,358
then you're actually incorporating a lot of what we're

479
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,946
talking about, which is complicating your relationships, your understanding,

480
00:22:58,947 --> 00:23:01,228
focusing on things that you can do that have

481
00:23:01,229 --> 00:23:04,108
efficacy and then doing it physically together.

482
00:23:04,109 --> 00:23:06,716
Like Habitat for Humanity, for example.

483
00:23:06,717 --> 00:23:08,192
Great thing, right?

484
00:23:08,193 --> 00:23:12,510
Because it's building houses for poorer communities.

485
00:23:12,511 --> 00:23:16,736
And oftentimes it brings together very different people

486
00:23:16,737 --> 00:23:19,526
who just want to do that in physical

487
00:23:19,527 --> 00:23:23,732
activity with a greater purpose of helping others.

488
00:23:23,733 --> 00:23:24,372
Right.

489
00:23:24,373 --> 00:23:26,180
But you're physically working

490
00:23:26,181 --> 00:23:28,276
together and coordinating together.

491
00:23:28,277 --> 00:23:31,972
So those are tremendous examples of the

492
00:23:31,973 --> 00:23:34,808
power of movement and physical activity in

493
00:23:34,809 --> 00:23:38,530
uniting groups and connecting groups across differences.

494
00:23:48,090 --> 00:23:50,434
(Duane) This is one of the points of guidance that we've

495
00:23:50,435 --> 00:23:53,340
had so far on this task within the Baha'i community,

496
00:23:53,341 --> 00:23:58,252
which is this idea of finding something where people can

497
00:23:58,253 --> 00:24:00,338
agree on the pursuit of a common goal.

498
00:24:00,339 --> 00:24:03,328
So try to find something that can become a

499
00:24:03,329 --> 00:24:06,112
basis for people having a common goal to help

500
00:24:06,113 --> 00:24:08,752
act as that bridge, bringing people together. (Peter) Yeah.

501
00:24:08,753 --> 00:24:11,456
Well, that's a very powerful idea, and it's, again,

502
00:24:11,457 --> 00:24:13,908
an idea supported by all kinds of research.

503
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:15,876
I want to give you one example of this.

504
00:24:15,877 --> 00:24:19,668
There's a film called 'The First Step Act', which

505
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:23,144
is a film about legislation that happened during the

506
00:24:23,145 --> 00:24:27,726
Trump administration, which was the most significant prison reform

507
00:24:27,727 --> 00:24:30,318
legislation that had come out in decades.

508
00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,496
(Duane) This was with Van Jones, is that right? Yeah.

509
00:24:33,497 --> 00:24:36,258
(Peter) The major actors driving it were Van Jones,

510
00:24:36,259 --> 00:24:40,828
who is a self professed radical progressive, right.

511
00:24:40,829 --> 00:24:42,810
And Jared kushner.

512
00:24:42,811 --> 00:24:45,290
Jared Kushner, Trump's son in law.

513
00:24:45,291 --> 00:24:48,322
Son in law and noted conservative.

514
00:24:48,323 --> 00:24:51,888
And what Van describes in this documentary called The

515
00:24:51,889 --> 00:24:55,184
First Step Act is that they have first of

516
00:24:55,185 --> 00:24:56,992
all, they didn't quite like each other.

517
00:24:56,993 --> 00:24:59,470
They had vilified each other in the media.

518
00:24:59,471 --> 00:25:01,744
And what Van Jones says is that there

519
00:25:01,745 --> 00:25:04,884
are 900 things we disagree on fundamentally, but

520
00:25:04,885 --> 00:25:06,996
there's one we agree on, which is that

521
00:25:06,997 --> 00:25:08,964
prison should be a different experience.

522
00:25:08,965 --> 00:25:11,962
And we need to reduce number of people in prison

523
00:25:11,963 --> 00:25:16,186
and the experiences, because Jared Kushner's father went to prison

524
00:25:16,187 --> 00:25:18,344
and Van Jones is a Black man in America and

525
00:25:18,345 --> 00:25:20,712
this is very personal, important to him. Right.

526
00:25:20,713 --> 00:25:24,328
So they came together and they worked together with

527
00:25:24,329 --> 00:25:28,540
Kellyanne Conway, and ultimately Trump signed this legislation because

528
00:25:28,541 --> 00:25:31,852
they found that space that they really were both

529
00:25:31,853 --> 00:25:34,748
passionate about in order to work together.

530
00:25:34,749 --> 00:25:36,636
It was difficult, obviously.

531
00:25:36,637 --> 00:25:39,218
And both of them are attacked from their own sides.

532
00:25:39,219 --> 00:25:39,472
Right.

533
00:25:39,473 --> 00:25:42,128
Van is attacked from progressives and

534
00:25:42,129 --> 00:25:44,678
Kushner is attacked from conservatives.

535
00:25:44,679 --> 00:25:47,552
But they come together because they believe in this.

536
00:25:47,553 --> 00:25:50,804
And I think the film is a very provocative account

537
00:25:50,805 --> 00:25:54,308
of this process that they went through, but it is

538
00:25:54,309 --> 00:25:56,720
a great illustration of what you're talking about.

539
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:11,096
(Duane) I think probably the single most popular idea, the single

540
00:26:11,097 --> 00:26:15,512
most common idea about how to bring groups together is

541
00:26:15,513 --> 00:26:17,452
just to put them in a room together, right?

542
00:26:17,453 --> 00:26:20,402
What in academic terms we'd call 'Contact Theory'.

543
00:26:20,403 --> 00:26:23,852
But I know from conversations we've had that you think

544
00:26:23,853 --> 00:26:26,840
that's a form of malpractice in this kind of space.

545
00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:30,108
Let's talk a little bit about that.

546
00:26:30,109 --> 00:26:31,558
What's wrong with contact theory?

547
00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:33,968
What's wrong with just getting these people from these

548
00:26:33,969 --> 00:26:36,112
different groups and putting them in a room and

549
00:26:36,113 --> 00:26:40,300
closing the door, letting them solve their problems?

550
00:26:40,990 --> 00:26:44,036
(Peter) Well, imagine if you will, that there is someone across

551
00:26:44,037 --> 00:26:47,028
the political divide from you that has an extreme point

552
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:50,292
of view on some important issue to you, and you

553
00:26:50,293 --> 00:26:54,052
feel very passionately about your side of this issue, and

554
00:26:54,053 --> 00:26:56,904
you're put into a room and they say, Just go.

555
00:26:56,905 --> 00:26:58,904
Imagine what's going to happen, right?

556
00:26:58,905 --> 00:27:01,166
It's a cocktail for escalation.

557
00:27:01,167 --> 00:27:02,664
So that's the issue.

558
00:27:02,665 --> 00:27:05,278
Contact theory came out of the 1950s of a man named

559
00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,572
Gordon Allport - was studying race relations in the US.

560
00:27:08,573 --> 00:27:13,532
- found that bringing people together across racial differences in

561
00:27:13,533 --> 00:27:18,002
dialogue, in conversation, was useful and helpful in humanizing

562
00:27:18,003 --> 00:27:20,752
one another and seeing the soul of the other,

563
00:27:20,753 --> 00:27:24,080
as someone would say, and that there's great power

564
00:27:24,081 --> 00:27:26,182
in that under certain conditions.

565
00:27:26,183 --> 00:27:29,222
So he was a researcher and studied

566
00:27:29,223 --> 00:27:31,332
the conditions under which that went well.

567
00:27:31,333 --> 00:27:34,228
And that caveat, under certain conditions, is something

568
00:27:34,229 --> 00:27:37,268
that I think is misunderstood today because there

569
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:40,228
are well intentioned organizations in this country and

570
00:27:40,229 --> 00:27:43,828
around the world that basically say, okay, go

571
00:27:43,829 --> 00:27:46,632
on this website, fill out this survey on

572
00:27:46,633 --> 00:27:48,760
political issues, and we'll match you with somebody

573
00:27:48,761 --> 00:27:50,472
in your community who differs from you.

574
00:27:50,473 --> 00:27:53,294
Go off and have a cup of coffee or a conversation.

575
00:27:53,295 --> 00:27:57,080
Well, under many conditions that can be fine.

576
00:27:57,610 --> 00:28:00,492
But when you have passionate true believers who

577
00:28:00,493 --> 00:28:03,436
really believe their rights are being taken away,

578
00:28:03,437 --> 00:28:07,298
they're being usurped in their country, whatever, encouraging

579
00:28:07,299 --> 00:28:08,528
them to just go off and have a

580
00:28:08,529 --> 00:28:11,408
conversation is unethical, I think, because what we

581
00:28:11,409 --> 00:28:14,208
hear of if you push the organizers of

582
00:28:14,209 --> 00:28:18,400
these groups on what happens, you hear these

583
00:28:18,401 --> 00:28:22,698
cautionary tales about explosions that occur and alienation.

584
00:28:22,699 --> 00:28:27,140
And in fact, Pew Research Foundation done research on

585
00:28:27,141 --> 00:28:31,236
the effects that Democrats and Republicans have when they

586
00:28:31,237 --> 00:28:32,676
talk to people on the other side.

587
00:28:32,677 --> 00:28:35,000
And most of us leave those like 60,

588
00:28:35,001 --> 00:28:38,398
some percent, leave those conversations feeling more alienated

589
00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:41,448
and frustrated because we can't communicate, right?

590
00:28:41,449 --> 00:28:43,592
So what that means is not that we

591
00:28:43,593 --> 00:28:45,288
shouldn't get together, but that we have to

592
00:28:45,289 --> 00:28:47,752
understand the conditions under which that works.

593
00:28:47,753 --> 00:28:50,012
And it's really important, as you say, that there

594
00:28:50,013 --> 00:28:52,972
be some kind of shared goal that we have,

595
00:28:52,973 --> 00:28:55,202
that we do it in a respectful manner.

596
00:28:55,203 --> 00:28:56,348
And so there are some kind of

597
00:28:56,349 --> 00:28:59,792
norms or facilitation process that happens.

598
00:28:59,793 --> 00:29:03,952
But most importantly, what we often miss is in

599
00:29:03,953 --> 00:29:08,288
a pro-Trump, anti-Trump era, we can't just

600
00:29:08,289 --> 00:29:10,590
have people come together for an hour.

601
00:29:10,591 --> 00:29:13,718
It might be that we have a decent enough conversation,

602
00:29:13,719 --> 00:29:15,908
but that's not going to move the needle right because

603
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:18,612
then it's just you and I can talk, but the

604
00:29:18,613 --> 00:29:21,680
rest of the people on your side are insane. Right.

605
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:26,980
It really requires some kind of ongoing opportunity

606
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:30,878
to have conversations that are decent conversations, facilitated,

607
00:29:30,879 --> 00:29:33,848
or at least respectful conversations with people that

608
00:29:33,849 --> 00:29:36,402
differ from you that matters.

609
00:29:36,403 --> 00:29:38,732
It's the extent of the contact and

610
00:29:38,733 --> 00:29:40,300
the conditions under which it happens.

611
00:29:40,301 --> 00:29:43,516
And unfortunately, the reason I wrote The Way Out

612
00:29:43,517 --> 00:29:49,362
is because when 2016 2017 started to happen, political

613
00:29:49,363 --> 00:29:51,276
rhetoric was heating up in this country.

614
00:29:51,277 --> 00:29:53,312
A lot of these organizations started to reach out

615
00:29:53,313 --> 00:29:55,808
to me because of the difficult conversations lab and

616
00:29:55,809 --> 00:29:58,128
say, 'hey, we want to do this thing'.

617
00:29:58,129 --> 00:30:01,664
And as I listened to them, I mostly would say, 'yeah, I

618
00:30:01,665 --> 00:30:05,284
wouldn't do that if I were you, I wouldn't do that.'

619
00:30:05,285 --> 00:30:07,876
'What I would do', I would say to them,

620
00:30:07,877 --> 00:30:10,932
'is I'd find groups and organizations already in your

621
00:30:10,933 --> 00:30:13,092
community that know how to do this, that do

622
00:30:13,093 --> 00:30:16,824
this well, and partner with them and point community

623
00:30:16,825 --> 00:30:19,864
members to these groups that know how to create

624
00:30:19,865 --> 00:30:22,974
safe spaces and continue the conversation.'

625
00:30:22,975 --> 00:30:25,356
But people like to invent their own things,

626
00:30:25,357 --> 00:30:27,772
so they were less inclined to do that.

627
00:30:27,773 --> 00:30:31,788
So yes, I'm critical of a misuse or

628
00:30:31,789 --> 00:30:35,452
misunderstanding of contact in situations where people are

629
00:30:35,453 --> 00:30:39,174
passionate true believers, because I think that understanding

630
00:30:39,175 --> 00:30:41,862
the extent of the science and the conditions

631
00:30:41,863 --> 00:30:44,758
under which this works is critical.

632
00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:47,168
(Duane) Yeah, it's not intentions, it's not

633
00:30:47,169 --> 00:30:49,174
good intentions that are sufficient.

634
00:30:49,175 --> 00:30:51,328
You really have to understand a little bit of the

635
00:30:51,329 --> 00:30:53,242
science of it, a little bit of what the evidence

636
00:30:53,243 --> 00:30:56,850
has taught us about how to do it successfully.

637
00:30:56,851 --> 00:30:58,468
And you alluded to this as well,

638
00:30:58,469 --> 00:31:00,388
about it not being one off.

639
00:31:00,389 --> 00:31:02,602
You're alluding here, really, to the temporal

640
00:31:02,603 --> 00:31:04,820
dimension of the problem that these problems

641
00:31:04,821 --> 00:31:06,584
take a while to create.

642
00:31:06,585 --> 00:31:07,742
They're not going to get solved,

643
00:31:07,743 --> 00:31:09,342
like in a single conversation.

644
00:31:09,343 --> 00:31:13,534
So there does need to be this commitment to an ongoing

645
00:31:13,535 --> 00:31:17,678
process and not just kind of like a one off encounter.

646
00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:19,996
(Peter) Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

647
00:31:19,997 --> 00:31:21,980
So there's a book I'll recommend to your community

648
00:31:21,981 --> 00:31:23,682
that's out of print, but it's worth reading.

649
00:31:23,683 --> 00:31:25,938
It's called 'The Logic of Failure'.

650
00:31:25,939 --> 00:31:28,610
It was written by a German psychologist named Dietrich

651
00:31:28,611 --> 00:31:31,616
Dorner, published, I think in the mid ninety's.

652
00:31:31,617 --> 00:31:35,392
And he basically was a person who, in Germany would

653
00:31:35,393 --> 00:31:39,312
bring well intentioned people onto his lab, put them into

654
00:31:39,313 --> 00:31:42,272
situations where they had a lot of influence and said,

655
00:31:42,273 --> 00:31:45,732
okay, here is a West African village, or here's a

656
00:31:45,733 --> 00:31:48,874
small community in the north of the UK.

657
00:31:48,875 --> 00:31:51,108
You're the mayor or you're the World Bank, and

658
00:31:51,109 --> 00:31:53,832
you have all these resources make their life better.

659
00:31:53,833 --> 00:31:57,128
And what he found is that most of us

660
00:31:57,129 --> 00:32:02,530
basically go in and do harm, not intentionally.

661
00:32:04,390 --> 00:32:06,322
We go in with good intentions,

662
00:32:06,323 --> 00:32:09,612
but we're oftentimes uninformed by the

663
00:32:09,613 --> 00:32:12,316
unintended consequences of what we're doing. Right?

664
00:32:12,317 --> 00:32:15,826
So when you work in complex environments

665
00:32:15,827 --> 00:32:19,596
that are changing, well intentioned initiatives can.

666
00:32:19,597 --> 00:32:23,456
Have consequences, can backfire, can work or not work.

667
00:32:23,457 --> 00:32:25,008
It can take a long time to see

668
00:32:25,009 --> 00:32:28,518
the impacts because you may do something that's

669
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:30,710
well intentioned and it may backfire.

670
00:32:30,711 --> 00:32:31,908
And so then you have to make

671
00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:35,040
an adjustment and go back in. Right.

672
00:32:36,130 --> 00:32:39,396
That's the temporal dimension of these things is there

673
00:32:39,397 --> 00:32:43,098
aren't quick fixes to something that's called toxic polarization

674
00:32:43,099 --> 00:32:46,008
that has taken us 60 years to get into.

675
00:32:46,009 --> 00:32:48,696
It oftentimes will take almost as much

676
00:32:48,697 --> 00:32:53,230
time to get out with intentionality respect

677
00:32:53,231 --> 00:33:05,682
and hopefully support.  (Duane) Another construct

678
00:33:05,683 --> 00:33:08,188
you explore, that's again, evidence-based, is

679
00:33:08,189 --> 00:33:10,258
this idea that you call 'positive deviance'.

680
00:33:10,259 --> 00:33:13,174
It's got elements of what's called 'bubble theory'.

681
00:33:13,175 --> 00:33:15,174
Sometimes it's called 'islands of agreement'.

682
00:33:15,175 --> 00:33:16,896
Tell us a little bit about this.

683
00:33:16,897 --> 00:33:17,984
What is this about?

684
00:33:17,985 --> 00:33:20,736
What does the evidence tell us about this

685
00:33:20,737 --> 00:33:23,764
idea about finding little gains and not just

686
00:33:23,765 --> 00:33:25,920
the big points of conflict, if you will?

687
00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:30,522
(Peter) Yeah, I think it's a very important perspective and understanding

688
00:33:30,523 --> 00:33:33,940
is that when you have problems that have settled into

689
00:33:33,941 --> 00:33:37,928
very long term ingrained patterns, what we tend to do

690
00:33:37,929 --> 00:33:40,056
is go in with some kind of solution. We think. Ah.

691
00:33:40,057 --> 00:33:40,888
Okay, I've seen this.

692
00:33:40,889 --> 00:33:42,264
I don't know what to do.

693
00:33:42,265 --> 00:33:46,462
Instead of asking ourselves, are there any people, individuals,

694
00:33:46,463 --> 00:33:49,036
groups in the community that are actually making things

695
00:33:49,037 --> 00:33:51,708
better or keeping things from getting worse? Right?

696
00:33:51,709 --> 00:33:53,720
That should be our first question.

697
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:56,732
The notion of positive deviance comes from someone

698
00:33:56,733 --> 00:34:00,624
named Jerry Sternin who studied malnutrition, was in

699
00:34:00,625 --> 00:34:04,590
Vietnam trying to understand malnutrition in communities.

700
00:34:04,591 --> 00:34:09,710
And what he noted was that in certain communities

701
00:34:09,711 --> 00:34:13,710
of impoverished people who worked mostly in rice patties,

702
00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:17,322
most of the children were malnourished, but some weren't.

703
00:34:17,323 --> 00:34:20,560
And so he was curious, like, what up there?

704
00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:25,380
So he would go to the mothers and say, how do you help?

705
00:34:25,381 --> 00:34:28,601
And they'd say, well, we work in the rice patties.

706
00:34:28,602 --> 00:34:31,502
And if you do that, you see that there's occasionally

707
00:34:31,503 --> 00:34:33,208
a little crab or a little shrimp, and you can

708
00:34:33,209 --> 00:34:34,318
take it and tuck it in your apron.

709
00:34:34,319 --> 00:34:36,590
And then when you go home and make lunch or dinner,

710
00:34:36,591 --> 00:34:40,002
you can put protein into the rice, and that helps.

711
00:34:40,003 --> 00:34:42,076
So they knew how to solve this, right,

712
00:34:42,077 --> 00:34:44,866
but it wasn't information that was widely shared.

713
00:34:44,867 --> 00:34:47,547
So then they would say, well, how about

714
00:34:47,548 --> 00:34:50,880
inviting your friends over and cooking together?

715
00:34:50,881 --> 00:34:52,848
And through that there would be a sort

716
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:56,576
of diffusion of this innovation and ultimately change.

717
00:34:56,577 --> 00:34:58,992
In other words, pockets of the community were

718
00:34:58,993 --> 00:35:01,520
figuring out solutions to their own problems.

719
00:35:01,521 --> 00:35:04,682
And that's when you talk about islands of agreement.

720
00:35:04,683 --> 00:35:07,338
There's a book by a woman named Gabriella Blum

721
00:35:07,339 --> 00:35:11,012
who's a Harvard law professor who studies places like

722
00:35:11,013 --> 00:35:15,032
Kashmir and Israel, Palestine, long term intractable conflicts, but

723
00:35:15,033 --> 00:35:19,080
says even in war zones, you always have these

724
00:35:19,081 --> 00:35:20,846
what they call 'islands of agreement'.

725
00:35:20,847 --> 00:35:24,622
You have some kinds of groups, individuals, oftentimes they're

726
00:35:24,623 --> 00:35:30,396
clergy or merchants who, for whatever reason, are able

727
00:35:30,397 --> 00:35:35,916
to keep conversation across differences going in civil ways

728
00:35:35,917 --> 00:35:38,560
and are islands of hope, right.

729
00:35:38,561 --> 00:35:42,886
In these seas of war and destruction in Mozambique

730
00:35:42,887 --> 00:35:46,166
during the 16 years civil war that had broken

731
00:35:46,167 --> 00:35:50,096
out, there was a horrible civil war, and people

732
00:35:50,097 --> 00:35:52,928
couldn't even imagine talking to somebody on the other

733
00:35:52,929 --> 00:35:54,788
side because you would be killed by members of

734
00:35:54,789 --> 00:35:57,428
your own side just to even imagine that.

735
00:35:57,429 --> 00:36:01,098
But the fishermen who would fish on the coast

736
00:36:01,099 --> 00:36:04,382
and then come in were able to cross enemy

737
00:36:04,383 --> 00:36:07,880
lines with their fish because everybody needed to eat.

738
00:36:07,881 --> 00:36:11,272
And so it was a source of information

739
00:36:11,273 --> 00:36:15,384
and even communication that they ultimately could use

740
00:36:15,385 --> 00:36:18,968
once they understood that they were there. Right.

741
00:36:18,969 --> 00:36:20,748
So those are the kinds of things

742
00:36:20,749 --> 00:36:23,388
that exist in most societies, things just

743
00:36:23,389 --> 00:36:25,180
in your family, if you ask yourself.

744
00:36:25,181 --> 00:36:26,962
So if you have a family that's politically

745
00:36:26,963 --> 00:36:29,456
divided and you feel very hostile, is there

746
00:36:29,457 --> 00:36:33,520
anybody in your family who is good at

747
00:36:33,521 --> 00:36:35,590
bringing us together and having a conversation?

748
00:36:35,591 --> 00:36:37,350
Sometimes it's a grandmother.

749
00:36:37,351 --> 00:36:39,366
In my family, it was my oldest brother.

750
00:36:39,367 --> 00:36:43,370
My oldest brother just had a way of communicating

751
00:36:43,371 --> 00:36:47,732
and gathering that reduced defensiveness, got people to sit

752
00:36:47,733 --> 00:36:50,388
down and calm down and to hear each other.

753
00:36:50,389 --> 00:36:52,452
It was just a talent he had.

754
00:36:52,453 --> 00:36:54,248
So who is that in your community?

755
00:36:54,249 --> 00:36:57,128
Those are what we would call the positive deviants, the

756
00:36:57,129 --> 00:37:02,328
people that even under very stressful antagonistic times can show

757
00:37:02,329 --> 00:37:04,814
up in a way that changes the dynamic.

758
00:37:04,815 --> 00:37:08,098
They should be the first people or groups or organizations

759
00:37:08,099 --> 00:37:11,212
that we seek out when we try to affect change.

760
00:37:11,213 --> 00:37:13,996
(Duane) Amanda Ripley talks about the opposite as well.

761
00:37:13,997 --> 00:37:16,810
People who are really good at weaving conflict.

762
00:37:16,811 --> 00:37:19,660
Yeah, often those are the people that we turn to.

763
00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:21,792
(Peter) Absolutely.

764
00:37:21,793 --> 00:37:24,048
The conflict entrepreneurs. That's what she calls it.

765
00:37:24,049 --> 00:37:26,582
Yeah, they're people that trade in conflict

766
00:37:26,583 --> 00:37:29,408
and provocation and of course, they get

767
00:37:29,409 --> 00:37:31,268
a lot of attention these days.

768
00:37:31,269 --> 00:37:32,852
The people that usually don't get

769
00:37:32,853 --> 00:37:35,010
attention are the quiet people.

770
00:37:35,011 --> 00:37:36,228
I'll mention quickly.

771
00:37:36,229 --> 00:37:39,876
Last week I was at Congress working with speaking

772
00:37:39,877 --> 00:37:43,578
to the bipartisan working group there, which are Republicans

773
00:37:43,579 --> 00:37:45,832
and Democrats that are trying to sit together every

774
00:37:45,833 --> 00:37:48,782
week and make some kind of bipartisan progress.

775
00:37:48,783 --> 00:37:50,648
And I have to say, Derek Kilmer, who

776
00:37:50,649 --> 00:37:53,560
is the chair of this group right now,

777
00:37:53,561 --> 00:37:56,664
is one of these quiet voices, right?

778
00:37:56,665 --> 00:37:59,292
He's not getting all the media attention that

779
00:37:59,293 --> 00:38:02,402
others are getting all the time, but he's

780
00:38:02,403 --> 00:38:05,548
quietly diligently working to find ways to bring

781
00:38:05,549 --> 00:38:07,196
people together and make them connect.

782
00:38:07,197 --> 00:38:10,114
And those are the quiet heroes that you want to seek

783
00:38:10,115 --> 00:38:13,216
out in these times, because they know how to do it,

784
00:38:13,217 --> 00:38:15,904
and they're not doing it to draw attention to themselves.

785
00:38:15,905 --> 00:38:17,856
They're doing it for the greater good.

786
00:38:17,857 --> 00:38:29,988
(Duane) Amazing.  Another area that you talk about in the book, where,

787
00:38:29,989 --> 00:38:33,432
again, there's evidence to show the impact of this, is

788
00:38:33,433 --> 00:38:37,896
the whole idea about how that discussion actually starts, how

789
00:38:37,897 --> 00:38:42,376
critical the first few minutes of that are in terms

790
00:38:42,377 --> 00:38:45,838
of setting the stage for what then basically follows.

791
00:38:45,839 --> 00:38:48,514
Maybe you could talk a little bit about why that's

792
00:38:48,515 --> 00:38:50,588
so important, what you have to do, what is it

793
00:38:50,589 --> 00:38:54,700
about that that we need to get right? Yeah. Great.

794
00:38:54,701 --> 00:38:58,044
So in the world of complexity science, when

795
00:38:58,045 --> 00:39:00,502
we think about systems and how systems establish

796
00:39:00,503 --> 00:39:03,008
what they find, is there's a phenomenon that

797
00:39:03,009 --> 00:39:06,806
they call the 'sensitivity to initial conditions'?

798
00:39:06,807 --> 00:39:10,256
The very first things that happen in a new

799
00:39:10,257 --> 00:39:12,724
group, in a new encounter, in a new company

800
00:39:12,725 --> 00:39:16,612
and whatever, the first things you do, the ways

801
00:39:16,613 --> 00:39:20,996
you interact, this is true in marital therapy. Right.

802
00:39:20,997 --> 00:39:23,320
John Gottman finds this the very first

803
00:39:23,321 --> 00:39:26,046
things that are said in a session

804
00:39:26,047 --> 00:39:29,022
really oftentimes will affect the trajectory.

805
00:39:29,023 --> 00:39:33,086
So understanding that that is a powerful

806
00:39:33,087 --> 00:39:37,186
place to maybe approach a relationship differently.

807
00:39:37,187 --> 00:39:37,900
Right.

808
00:39:37,901 --> 00:39:42,466
We teach this in mediation when mediators are convening, disputants,

809
00:39:42,467 --> 00:39:45,516
is that the first thing you do, how you present

810
00:39:45,517 --> 00:39:48,262
yourself, how you set up the room, how you frame

811
00:39:48,263 --> 00:39:51,814
what you're going to do, is a very powerful determinant

812
00:39:51,815 --> 00:39:53,568
of how this is going to go.

813
00:39:53,569 --> 00:39:56,534
So in the world of political divisions

814
00:39:56,535 --> 00:40:01,670
and polarization, oftentimes we wander into conversations

815
00:40:01,671 --> 00:40:04,714
with people who differ from us automatically.

816
00:40:04,715 --> 00:40:06,516
We trigger them, they trigger us,

817
00:40:06,517 --> 00:40:08,138
we escalate, it gets ugly.

818
00:40:08,139 --> 00:40:09,988
And we leave there thinking, never

819
00:40:09,989 --> 00:40:11,044
want to see them again.

820
00:40:11,045 --> 00:40:14,110
And this is unfortunately happening pretty commonly.

821
00:40:14,111 --> 00:40:17,192
So our recommendation is to sort of be

822
00:40:17,193 --> 00:40:20,536
mindful of the power of initial conditions if

823
00:40:20,537 --> 00:40:23,656
your intention is something else, right.

824
00:40:23,657 --> 00:40:26,846
Not to go through the same kind of destructive pattern.

825
00:40:26,847 --> 00:40:28,898
(Duane) You talk about a colleague of yours, Laura

826
00:40:28,899 --> 00:40:32,028
Chasen, who starts the sessions with a little

827
00:40:32,029 --> 00:40:34,546
bit of an introduction to the team, explaining

828
00:40:34,547 --> 00:40:36,652
what she's not asking them to do.

829
00:40:36,653 --> 00:40:39,062
I found that really a fascinating idea, helping

830
00:40:39,063 --> 00:40:41,254
give people a little bit of comfort, helping

831
00:40:41,255 --> 00:40:44,294
them feel safe, not having expectations that they're

832
00:40:44,295 --> 00:40:47,622
going to solve the problem, necessarily just reshaping

833
00:40:47,623 --> 00:40:50,816
expectations at the outset. (Peter)    Yeah.

834
00:40:50,817 --> 00:40:53,684
Laura Chasen was an extraordinary woman and ran a

835
00:40:53,685 --> 00:40:56,666
thing called the Public Conversations Project out of Boston.

836
00:40:56,667 --> 00:40:59,332
And part of the story I tell on the way

837
00:40:59,333 --> 00:41:02,612
out is a dialogue session that she facilitated with three

838
00:41:02,613 --> 00:41:06,296
pro life and pro choice leaders in Boston right.

839
00:41:06,297 --> 00:41:09,016
After a horrific shooting that had taken place there.

840
00:41:09,017 --> 00:41:11,608
They met in secret for a long time.

841
00:41:11,609 --> 00:41:14,392
I'd interviewed her afterwards and she said, part of

842
00:41:14,393 --> 00:41:17,224
what these people, the reason that they don't want

843
00:41:17,225 --> 00:41:19,118
to talk to each other is because they don't

844
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:20,770
want to come to an agreement.

845
00:41:20,771 --> 00:41:23,500
They don't want to tolerate the other's point of view.

846
00:41:23,501 --> 00:41:26,354
And so what she would say is, okay, I'm

847
00:41:26,355 --> 00:41:28,188
not going to ask you to agree to anything.

848
00:41:28,189 --> 00:41:30,140
I'm not going to ask you to love each other.

849
00:41:30,141 --> 00:41:32,432
I'm not going to ask you to embrace each other.

850
00:41:32,433 --> 00:41:33,968
I'm really going to ask you to

851
00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:36,688
sit and listen as best you can.

852
00:41:36,689 --> 00:41:39,728
We'll facilitate this in a safe way

853
00:41:39,729 --> 00:41:43,222
so that we can avert future violence.

854
00:41:43,223 --> 00:41:45,396
That's what I'm going to ask of you.

855
00:41:45,397 --> 00:41:46,932
And under those conditions, they

856
00:41:46,933 --> 00:41:48,420
said, okay, I'll do that.

857
00:41:48,421 --> 00:41:49,642
I don't want a mediation.

858
00:41:49,643 --> 00:41:51,330
I don't want an agreement.

859
00:41:51,331 --> 00:41:53,256
I don't want anybody to even know about

860
00:41:53,257 --> 00:41:57,278
this, but I will listen under those conditions.

861
00:41:57,279 --> 00:42:00,008
So it was basically saying to

862
00:42:00,009 --> 00:42:02,290
people, I know what you're expecting.

863
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:04,232
I'm going to offer you something

864
00:42:04,233 --> 00:42:06,508
else, right, that is different.

865
00:42:06,509 --> 00:42:09,196
And there is something about that that can be

866
00:42:09,197 --> 00:42:13,282
freeing and was, in fact, and ultimately was profoundly

867
00:42:13,283 --> 00:42:18,822
effective for these six advocates who built better relationships

868
00:42:18,823 --> 00:42:22,480
over time and ultimately brought the rhetoric that had

869
00:42:22,481 --> 00:42:26,752
created the conditions for violence, reduced that rhetoric in

870
00:42:26,753 --> 00:42:28,570
the Boston area and beyond.

871
00:42:38,110 --> 00:42:39,686
(Duane) In line with that evidence

872
00:42:39,687 --> 00:42:41,834
base, the evidence based findings,

873
00:42:41,835 --> 00:42:43,896
one of those findings that actually really

874
00:42:43,897 --> 00:42:48,318
surprised me was how influential people's theory

875
00:42:48,319 --> 00:42:51,620
of change is to the process.

876
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:53,432
Talk a little bit about that.

877
00:42:53,433 --> 00:42:56,894
That's really fascinating how you come to the party.

878
00:42:56,895 --> 00:42:59,212
What theory of change you bring with you to

879
00:42:59,213 --> 00:43:01,938
that party has a huge influence on what unfolds.

880
00:43:01,939 --> 00:43:04,172
Then talk to us a little bit about that.

881
00:43:04,173 --> 00:43:06,972
(Peter) So we're human beings, and we've engaged with the

882
00:43:06,973 --> 00:43:08,956
world and solved problems all of our lives.

883
00:43:08,957 --> 00:43:11,558
And so we all have these very deep, implicit

884
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:14,512
theories of change, even if we don't recognize them.

885
00:43:14,513 --> 00:43:15,824
Especially if we don't. Right?

886
00:43:15,825 --> 00:43:17,638
I once had the honor of interviewing

887
00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:20,320
George Mitchell, who was a world class

888
00:43:20,321 --> 00:43:23,142
peace builder and helped with the Irish.

889
00:43:23,143 --> 00:43:26,612
He went to Ireland and helped with the crisis there.

890
00:43:26,613 --> 00:43:28,602
Yeah, the Good Friday peace agreement.

891
00:43:28,603 --> 00:43:31,364
He helped broker that over a couple of years there.

892
00:43:31,365 --> 00:43:33,002
So he was very skilled.

893
00:43:33,003 --> 00:43:36,100
And I was interviewing peacemakers who

894
00:43:36,101 --> 00:43:38,008
brought warring parties together to try

895
00:43:38,009 --> 00:43:39,608
to understand how they did that.

896
00:43:39,609 --> 00:43:42,392
And I said I was interested in their theory of change.

897
00:43:42,393 --> 00:43:44,472
And so I explained that to him, and he

898
00:43:44,473 --> 00:43:47,118
said to me, well, I don't believe in theory.

899
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:48,866
I don't really have a theory.

900
00:43:48,867 --> 00:43:51,148
So I'll talk to you and tell you what I

901
00:43:51,149 --> 00:43:54,146
do, but I don't really find value in theory.

902
00:43:54,147 --> 00:43:55,468
And then he spent in the

903
00:43:55,469 --> 00:43:58,738
next hour articulating his theory.

904
00:43:58,739 --> 00:44:02,752
He had a very coherent theory of change, right?

905
00:44:02,753 --> 00:44:04,608
And we all do, right?

906
00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:06,512
We think about how to do things.

907
00:44:06,513 --> 00:44:08,432
It's always like, what's the best way to do this?

908
00:44:08,433 --> 00:44:10,096
That's your theory, right?

909
00:44:10,097 --> 00:44:12,416
Because we oftentimes don't know.

910
00:44:12,417 --> 00:44:14,052
So in the book, what I try to talk

911
00:44:14,053 --> 00:44:15,748
about again, this kind of goes back to what

912
00:44:15,749 --> 00:44:18,628
we're facing here in terms of polarization in this

913
00:44:18,629 --> 00:44:21,828
country and around the world, is that sometimes it

914
00:44:21,829 --> 00:44:25,018
is a problem that can be addressed interpersonally.

915
00:44:25,019 --> 00:44:27,246
It can be just me and my assumptions.

916
00:44:27,247 --> 00:44:29,752
It can be our relationship, and they can

917
00:44:29,753 --> 00:44:31,854
be things that can be sort of fixed.

918
00:44:31,855 --> 00:44:34,952
And that is the clock theory of Popper, right?

919
00:44:34,953 --> 00:44:36,648
That this is something a clock is.

920
00:44:36,649 --> 00:44:38,508
If it breaks, you take it apart, you

921
00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:40,716
find the spring that's broken, you replace it,

922
00:44:40,717 --> 00:44:43,196
put it back together, and it functions. Right?

923
00:44:43,197 --> 00:44:46,636
And many problems are like that, but

924
00:44:46,637 --> 00:44:48,988
some problems are just fundamentally different.

925
00:44:48,989 --> 00:44:53,296
And that's what I encourage people to ask themselves is

926
00:44:53,297 --> 00:44:56,160
are you dealing with clock problems or cloud problems?

927
00:44:56,161 --> 00:44:58,432
If they're clock problems, you can just

928
00:44:58,433 --> 00:45:00,016
go in and talk it out.

929
00:45:00,017 --> 00:45:01,152
I can sit down and work

930
00:45:01,153 --> 00:45:03,652
it out and that's enough, right?

931
00:45:03,653 --> 00:45:07,908
And most conflicts are in that bucket, but it

932
00:45:07,909 --> 00:45:10,420
might be that we've tried that and we've tried

933
00:45:10,421 --> 00:45:13,242
that and we've tried that and we're getting nowhere.

934
00:45:13,243 --> 00:45:15,188
And then we have to realize this is

935
00:45:15,189 --> 00:45:17,448
a different caliber of problem and we have

936
00:45:17,449 --> 00:45:19,512
to think about it at a different level.

937
00:45:19,513 --> 00:45:21,918
And we have to use some of these strategies that we've

938
00:45:21,919 --> 00:45:27,368
been talking about which can help loosen the problem set in

939
00:45:27,369 --> 00:45:29,596
ways that we can navigate our ways out of it.

940
00:45:29,597 --> 00:45:32,284
So that is a different theory of change.

941
00:45:32,285 --> 00:45:36,402
It's recognizing that some problems are what he calls

942
00:45:36,403 --> 00:45:38,978
cloud problems, which are a set of different kinds

943
00:45:38,979 --> 00:45:41,200
of problems that interact in weird ways.

944
00:45:41,201 --> 00:45:43,078
So we go in and do something that's

945
00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:45,168
smart like try to bring people together to

946
00:45:45,169 --> 00:45:48,544
talk and it backfires, okay, that didn't work.

947
00:45:48,545 --> 00:45:51,328
Can try it again backfires. Okay.

948
00:45:51,329 --> 00:45:54,772
So we have to zoom out and understand

949
00:45:54,773 --> 00:45:57,012
the context and then think about it and

950
00:45:57,013 --> 00:45:59,332
work with it in a fundamentally different way.

951
00:45:59,333 --> 00:46:01,012
Again, we have these theories of change.

952
00:46:01,013 --> 00:46:02,788
It's useful to articulate it on

953
00:46:02,789 --> 00:46:04,036
the website for the book.

954
00:46:04,037 --> 00:46:07,464
And on this 'challenge' that I'll mention, we have

955
00:46:07,465 --> 00:46:10,712
some exercises where people can sort of sketch out

956
00:46:10,713 --> 00:46:13,528
what their theory of change is and then think

957
00:46:13,529 --> 00:46:16,044
about, well, what would an alternative be in a

958
00:46:16,045 --> 00:46:20,802
more complicated problem that doesn't seem to be addressed

959
00:46:20,803 --> 00:46:22,470
with our typical strategies?

960
00:46:31,710 --> 00:46:34,982
(Duane) Another area you've researched is the balance

961
00:46:34,983 --> 00:46:38,726
that's needed between positive and negative comments.

962
00:46:38,727 --> 00:46:41,076
And I think the results of your research here

963
00:46:41,077 --> 00:46:44,628
might surprise our listeners because you find that it

964
00:46:44,629 --> 00:46:48,388
takes many more positive comments to balance out the

965
00:46:48,389 --> 00:46:52,130
effect for every negative comment that's made.

966
00:46:52,131 --> 00:46:54,950
Tell us about your findings here.

967
00:46:54,951 --> 00:46:59,384
(Peter) So yes, in research with romantic couples, in research

968
00:46:59,385 --> 00:47:03,320
in strategy teams and organizations, and in our research

969
00:47:03,321 --> 00:47:07,404
on difficult conversations over moral issues, what we find

970
00:47:07,405 --> 00:47:09,932
is that you need to have some kind of

971
00:47:09,933 --> 00:47:13,458
balanced ratio of Positivity to negativity.

972
00:47:13,459 --> 00:47:15,996
So what Gottman finds, and this is over now

973
00:47:15,997 --> 00:47:20,374
40 years of research, is that in psychology there's

974
00:47:20,375 --> 00:47:23,840
a thing called the 'negativity effect', which means that

975
00:47:23,841 --> 00:47:29,430
negative encounters, negative experiences are more powerful than positive

976
00:47:29,431 --> 00:47:33,092
because we remember them, they're formative, they stay with

977
00:47:33,093 --> 00:47:35,636
us, they have much more impact on us.

978
00:47:35,637 --> 00:47:38,212
So there is an asymmetry, an

979
00:47:38,213 --> 00:47:41,114
imbalance on the power of negativity.

980
00:47:41,115 --> 00:47:44,894
And if you recognize that what you realize in relationships

981
00:47:44,895 --> 00:47:48,328
is that you need to have enough Positivity in your

982
00:47:48,329 --> 00:47:53,048
bank account and your reservoir of emotions, that you have

983
00:47:53,049 --> 00:47:56,892
trust and rapport and fun and good memories so that

984
00:47:56,893 --> 00:47:58,802
you can actually learn from conflict.

985
00:47:58,803 --> 00:48:02,556
And what Gottman defines in his studies with

986
00:48:02,557 --> 00:48:05,916
romantic relationships is that conflict is important.

987
00:48:05,917 --> 00:48:06,508
Right?

988
00:48:06,509 --> 00:48:08,886
If you don't have conflict in your relationships,

989
00:48:08,887 --> 00:48:11,990
then you're either disengaged or you're psychotic.

990
00:48:11,991 --> 00:48:13,580
Because we're humans, right?

991
00:48:14,350 --> 00:48:16,272
We're making mistakes, right?

992
00:48:16,273 --> 00:48:19,088
So either you just don't care or

993
00:48:19,089 --> 00:48:22,010
you're not really in the same reality.

994
00:48:22,770 --> 00:48:25,332
If humans are engaged with each other in

995
00:48:25,333 --> 00:48:27,978
ongoing relationships, there's going to be conflict.

996
00:48:27,979 --> 00:48:30,516
And conflict allows them to grow and learn.

997
00:48:30,517 --> 00:48:32,772
They learn about themselves, about their relationship,

998
00:48:32,773 --> 00:48:34,888
about the other, about the situations that

999
00:48:34,889 --> 00:48:36,776
they're in that are changing. Right.

1000
00:48:36,777 --> 00:48:40,072
So conflict is a necessary component of

1001
00:48:40,073 --> 00:48:43,368
thriving relationships, but you need to have

1002
00:48:43,369 --> 00:48:45,758
a good reservoir of positivity.

1003
00:48:45,759 --> 00:48:49,634
So what Gottman finds in his research and Julie

1004
00:48:49,635 --> 00:48:52,098
Gottman is his partner in this, John and Julie

1005
00:48:52,099 --> 00:48:55,756
Gottman, what they find in their Love lab is

1006
00:48:55,757 --> 00:48:59,638
that thriving couples, when they're in conflict, when they're

1007
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:03,470
discussing divisive issues or conflictual issues in their life.

1008
00:49:03,471 --> 00:49:07,190
There is a ratio of five positive

1009
00:49:07,191 --> 00:49:10,934
to one negative encounters in their conversations.

1010
00:49:10,935 --> 00:49:14,458
Which means that we're talking about a problem raising

1011
00:49:14,459 --> 00:49:17,306
our child or a financial problem we have. Or sex.

1012
00:49:17,307 --> 00:49:18,468
Those are basically the three things

1013
00:49:18,469 --> 00:49:20,324
that most couples fight over.

1014
00:49:20,325 --> 00:49:24,532
And in that conversation, we'll be playful or

1015
00:49:24,533 --> 00:49:26,878
we'll be understanding or apathetic or warm.

1016
00:49:26,879 --> 00:49:29,060
And then every once in a while I'll say,

1017
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:32,440
but this is a real problem I have. Right.

1018
00:49:32,441 --> 00:49:35,208
And it's that balance of having enough

1019
00:49:35,209 --> 00:49:38,108
rapport and warmth in order to be

1020
00:49:38,109 --> 00:49:40,914
able to tolerate and learn from conflict.

1021
00:49:40,915 --> 00:49:44,108
We find that in the Difficult Conversation Lab, again, if

1022
00:49:44,109 --> 00:49:47,522
you have a 50/50 ratio, half positive, half negative,

1023
00:49:47,523 --> 00:49:50,722
the negativity is powerful and it will overwhelm and eventually

1024
00:49:50,723 --> 00:49:52,416
you end up in a bad place.

1025
00:49:52,417 --> 00:49:55,712
So we find in our conversations, which are between people that

1026
00:49:55,713 --> 00:49:59,008
don't know each other, that a three to one ratio is

1027
00:49:59,009 --> 00:50:01,620
ideal, three and a half to one or so.

1028
00:50:01,621 --> 00:50:05,802
So again, you need to establish enough respect, rapport,

1029
00:50:05,803 --> 00:50:09,860
connection so that you can differ, but do so

1030
00:50:09,861 --> 00:50:13,162
respectfully, right, and not escalate and get worse.

1031
00:50:13,163 --> 00:50:17,432
So that's the power of positivity, but it

1032
00:50:17,433 --> 00:50:19,656
speaks to the power of negativity, right.

1033
00:50:19,657 --> 00:50:22,728
How influential negativity is in our life.

1034
00:50:22,729 --> 00:50:25,112
That's why we see it so much in social media

1035
00:50:25,113 --> 00:50:28,076
and mainstream media, because it's an addictive substance, right.

1036
00:50:28,077 --> 00:50:30,010
Outrage is addictive.

1037
00:50:30,011 --> 00:50:32,492
So you need to counter that by

1038
00:50:32,493 --> 00:50:35,410
establishing relationships that are thick and caring

1039
00:50:35,411 --> 00:50:39,530
and understanding or at least sufficiently trustworthy.

1040
00:50:48,830 --> 00:50:52,032
(Duane) Now, Peter, you're currently working on a

1041
00:50:52,033 --> 00:50:54,390
project which you're calling 'The Challenge'.

1042
00:50:54,391 --> 00:50:56,980
Tell us about that project. (Peter) Right.

1043
00:50:56,981 --> 00:50:59,188
So about a year ago, there was a group of

1044
00:50:59,189 --> 00:51:01,972
us, so my oldest daughter, who's way smarter than me.

1045
00:51:01,973 --> 00:51:04,068
And then some of my students were talking about The

1046
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:06,216
Way Out, the book, and how it was doing.

1047
00:51:06,217 --> 00:51:09,182
And I sort of came to the understanding that we're

1048
00:51:09,183 --> 00:51:12,200
in a time of urgent need to depolarize this country.

1049
00:51:12,201 --> 00:51:15,550
I feel like we're on a really bad trajectory.

1050
00:51:15,551 --> 00:51:16,940
I'm not alone in this.

1051
00:51:16,941 --> 00:51:20,570
There are historians like John Meacham who are

1052
00:51:20,571 --> 00:51:24,012
anticipating a different kind of civil war, but

1053
00:51:24,013 --> 00:51:26,482
definitely political violence on the rise.

1054
00:51:26,483 --> 00:51:29,404
So I was concerned about that and concerned that you

1055
00:51:29,405 --> 00:51:32,140
can write a book and I can do podcasts, and

1056
00:51:32,141 --> 00:51:33,888
I can try my best to get the news out.

1057
00:51:33,889 --> 00:51:37,152
But it's really hard to help people change their

1058
00:51:37,153 --> 00:51:39,264
life unless they're clear on what to do.

1059
00:51:39,265 --> 00:51:41,008
So what we did last summer is

1060
00:51:41,009 --> 00:51:43,258
we created what we call a Challenge.

1061
00:51:43,259 --> 00:51:45,892
Which was we asked, okay, so if I was

1062
00:51:45,893 --> 00:51:48,484
going to actually live these principles that you and

1063
00:51:48,485 --> 00:51:52,522
I talked about different theory of change, resetting, complicating

1064
00:51:52,523 --> 00:51:57,406
our understanding, moving together, adapting long term.

1065
00:51:57,407 --> 00:51:59,448
If I were to do these things

1066
00:51:59,449 --> 00:52:01,336
every day, what would I do?

1067
00:52:01,337 --> 00:52:03,310
How would it change my behavior?

1068
00:52:03,311 --> 00:52:05,064
So we created a set of what we

1069
00:52:05,065 --> 00:52:08,402
call micro exercises, or nudges, and we organized

1070
00:52:08,403 --> 00:52:10,690
it around a four week challenge.

1071
00:52:10,691 --> 00:52:12,860
And so what you can do, if you're interested,

1072
00:52:12,861 --> 00:52:17,058
is you go to there's a nonprofit called 'Starts

1073
00:52:17,059 --> 00:52:20,130
With US', which is founded by Daniel Lubetzky, who's

1074
00:52:20,131 --> 00:52:24,048
the Kind Bar founder, and it's a nonprofit, and

1075
00:52:24,049 --> 00:52:26,502
they're trying to do things to depolarize America.

1076
00:52:26,503 --> 00:52:28,048
And one of the things they did is

1077
00:52:28,049 --> 00:52:31,510
help set up a website for our challenge.

1078
00:52:31,511 --> 00:52:34,212
And you can go to it and sign up.

1079
00:52:34,213 --> 00:52:39,060
And then basically what you do is you go to it

1080
00:52:39,061 --> 00:52:43,572
every day for about four weeks, five days a week.

1081
00:52:43,573 --> 00:52:45,300
We give you the weekends off.

1082
00:52:45,301 --> 00:52:47,304
You go through this each week.

1083
00:52:47,305 --> 00:52:50,216
First week is you, second week is us, third

1084
00:52:50,217 --> 00:52:52,808
week is across the divide, and the fourth week

1085
00:52:52,809 --> 00:52:54,888
is trying to move it into the community.

1086
00:52:54,889 --> 00:52:57,276
But again, it's a commitment of

1087
00:52:57,277 --> 00:52:58,860
five minutes or more a day.

1088
00:52:58,861 --> 00:53:02,092
And it's an attempt to get people thinking about

1089
00:53:02,093 --> 00:53:04,956
these things at different levels and trying these different

1090
00:53:04,957 --> 00:53:08,818
exercises in their life that are feasible.

1091
00:53:08,819 --> 00:53:10,592
So we've started this.

1092
00:53:10,593 --> 00:53:13,536
We're working now with college students on it.

1093
00:53:13,537 --> 00:53:16,240
We're working with congressional staffers on it,

1094
00:53:16,241 --> 00:53:17,808
and we're trying to get more and

1095
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:20,756
more communities to try this out.

1096
00:53:20,757 --> 00:53:23,360
And again, they may find some things

1097
00:53:24,130 --> 00:53:27,642
not useful, other things surprisingly useful.

1098
00:53:27,643 --> 00:53:29,428
But the idea is to just get in the

1099
00:53:29,429 --> 00:53:33,048
habit of reflecting on this and trying to work

1100
00:53:33,049 --> 00:53:36,712
at these different levels to develop a new sense

1101
00:53:36,713 --> 00:53:41,090
of political tolerance, political courage, and more compassion.

1102
00:53:50,650 --> 00:53:53,202
(Duane) What other advice do you have for Baha'i communities?

1103
00:53:53,203 --> 00:53:56,188
Remember, these are Baha'i communities globally, like in

1104
00:53:56,189 --> 00:53:59,058
remote villages and, you know, in the Highlands

1105
00:53:59,059 --> 00:54:01,708
in Papua New Guinea and in Africa and

1106
00:54:01,709 --> 00:54:02,848
I mean all over the world.

1107
00:54:02,849 --> 00:54:05,712
What advice would you have for our listeners in terms

1108
00:54:05,713 --> 00:54:09,500
of how they as communities can best contribute to this?

1109
00:54:10,110 --> 00:54:13,722
So it's a great question because we piloted

1110
00:54:13,723 --> 00:54:16,772
this challenge last summer, and what we found

1111
00:54:16,773 --> 00:54:19,764
is that the experience of going through a

1112
00:54:19,765 --> 00:54:22,676
challenge like this is best in community, right?

1113
00:54:22,677 --> 00:54:24,712
It's best if you reach out to two or three

1114
00:54:24,713 --> 00:54:27,830
people that you want to do this with or more,

1115
00:54:27,831 --> 00:54:31,992
because the experience of doing this can be hard and

1116
00:54:31,993 --> 00:54:37,838
can be challenging or can be really hopeful, but processing

1117
00:54:37,839 --> 00:54:40,300
that with your friends, with your colleagues, with your community

1118
00:54:40,301 --> 00:54:43,132
members is a really important part of that.

1119
00:54:43,133 --> 00:54:45,308
That's what we found last summer is we would do

1120
00:54:45,309 --> 00:54:47,218
this for a week, then I would have a zoom

1121
00:54:47,219 --> 00:54:49,964
session with my students and we'd chat about it.

1122
00:54:49,965 --> 00:54:53,472
And some of them would say, I tried this, I hated it.

1123
00:54:53,473 --> 00:54:55,232
I reached out to people and they laughed at me.

1124
00:54:55,233 --> 00:54:57,616
I don't want to do that again. Right.

1125
00:54:57,617 --> 00:55:00,544
Others would say, I did this, and I thought it was going

1126
00:55:00,545 --> 00:55:03,316
to be a pain in the neck and it was fantastic. Right.

1127
00:55:03,317 --> 00:55:08,372
So it's just sharing those experiences because we

1128
00:55:08,373 --> 00:55:10,388
learn not only from our own experience, but

1129
00:55:10,389 --> 00:55:12,692
from how others experience these things.

1130
00:55:12,693 --> 00:55:15,976
And so communities that adopt this and try

1131
00:55:15,977 --> 00:55:20,126
this together are the best space to ultimately

1132
00:55:20,127 --> 00:55:23,832
have it continue on as a practice and

1133
00:55:23,833 --> 00:55:26,660
ultimately transform yourself and your community.

1134
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:29,372
So the idea would be that people would

1135
00:55:29,373 --> 00:55:32,444
sign up for it individually and it's free.

1136
00:55:32,445 --> 00:55:34,146
People would sign up for it individually

1137
00:55:34,147 --> 00:55:35,804
and then maybe once a week, they

1138
00:55:35,805 --> 00:55:38,520
would come together to discuss their experience.

1139
00:55:39,130 --> 00:55:41,888
Yes, you check in, I would say once a

1140
00:55:41,889 --> 00:55:44,800
week to just debrief and talk about it.

1141
00:55:44,801 --> 00:55:47,712
We find critical to do this together so

1142
00:55:47,713 --> 00:55:50,436
that there is a sense of community that

1143
00:55:50,437 --> 00:55:54,276
comes from grappling with these habits that are

1144
00:55:54,277 --> 00:55:57,150
destructive but that are flexible and changeable.

1145
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:07,448
(Duane) Peter, wow, you've been a

1146
00:56:07,449 --> 00:56:09,256
real wealth of information here.

1147
00:56:09,257 --> 00:56:11,288
What I love about your work is

1148
00:56:11,289 --> 00:56:12,942
that you're a scholar, you're a scientist.

1149
00:56:12,943 --> 00:56:14,536
It's all evidence based.

1150
00:56:14,537 --> 00:56:15,864
And again, as you say,

1151
00:56:15,865 --> 00:56:17,352
good intentions alone aren't enough.

1152
00:56:17,353 --> 00:56:19,052
You really have to have the

1153
00:56:19,053 --> 00:56:20,572
science and the evidence working with.

1154
00:56:20,573 --> 00:56:22,124
You really looking at what the

1155
00:56:22,125 --> 00:56:24,268
science of depolarization is about.

1156
00:56:24,269 --> 00:56:27,530
Thank you so much for joining us on Society Builders.

1157
00:56:27,531 --> 00:56:28,882
(Peter) Oh, it's been a pleasure.

1158
00:56:28,883 --> 00:56:32,374
And I welcome your community to the conversation.

1159
00:56:32,375 --> 00:56:35,056
And I would be more than happy to

1160
00:56:35,057 --> 00:56:37,728
have follow up conversations with any individuals or

1161
00:56:37,729 --> 00:56:39,808
groups that want to learn more.

1162
00:56:39,809 --> 00:56:41,440
(Duane) Oh, you're going to regret that.

1163
00:56:43,570 --> 00:56:44,100
(Peter) Okay.

1164
00:56:44,101 --> 00:56:46,756
It's a good problem to have these days, more

1165
00:56:46,757 --> 00:56:52,372
energy behind trying to crack this pattern, the better.

1166
00:56:52,373 --> 00:56:54,794
(Duane) Well, that was fantastic.

1167
00:56:54,795 --> 00:56:56,206
Thanks again, Peter.

1168
00:56:56,207 --> 00:56:57,768
And I want to thank you,

1169
00:56:57,769 --> 00:57:00,750
our audience, for joining today's conversation.

1170
00:57:00,751 --> 00:57:03,342
I've included references to some of the books that Peter

1171
00:57:03,343 --> 00:57:06,088
mentioned in our show, notes together with a link to

1172
00:57:06,089 --> 00:57:09,612
the website for that Challenge that Peter talked about.

1173
00:57:09,613 --> 00:57:12,172
Now, you won't want to miss our next episode, where

1174
00:57:12,173 --> 00:57:15,970
we continue our sequence on the science of Depolarization.

1175
00:57:15,971 --> 00:57:19,532
I'll be interviewing Gary Friedman, who is co-

1176
00:57:19,533 --> 00:57:21,990
founder of the Center for Understanding and Conflict

1177
00:57:21,991 --> 00:57:24,566
and is one of the world's leading trainers

1178
00:57:24,567 --> 00:57:26,830
in the art of mediation.

1179
00:57:26,831 --> 00:57:28,982
It's an amazing episode

1180
00:57:28,983 --> 00:57:31,658
you won't want to miss.   That's

1181
00:57:31,659 --> 00:57:35,070
next time,  on Society Builders.

1182
00:57:36,610 --> 00:57:39,588
Society Builders pave the way to a

1183
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:42,116
better world, to a better day, a

1184
00:57:42,117 --> 00:57:45,890
united approach to building a new society.

1185
00:57:46,550 --> 00:57:49,166
There's a crisis facing humanity.

1186
00:57:49,167 --> 00:57:51,742
People suffer from a lack of unity.

1187
00:57:51,743 --> 00:57:55,990
It's time for a better path to a new society.

1188
00:57:56,730 --> 00:57:59,740
Join the Conversation for Social

1189
00:57:59,741 --> 00:58:03,350
Transformation. Society Builders.

1190
00:58:07,390 --> 00:58:17,558
Join the Conversation for Social Transformation. Society Builders. So engage

1191
00:58:17,559 --> 00:58:20,388
with your local communities and explore all the

1192
00:58:20,389 --> 00:58:25,354
exciting possibilities. We can elevate the atmosphere

1193
00:58:25,355 --> 00:58:27,012
in which we move.

1194
00:58:27,013 --> 00:58:29,610
The paradigm is shifting.

1195
00:58:29,611 --> 00:58:32,042
It's so very uplifting.

1196
00:58:32,043 --> 00:58:35,646
It's a new beat, a new song, a brand

1197
00:58:35,647 --> 00:58:43,810
new groove.  Join the conversation for Social Transformation. Society Builders.

1198
00:58:47,210 --> 00:58:58,502
Join the conversation for social transformation. Society Builders. The Baha'i Faith

1199
00:58:58,503 --> 00:59:02,064
has a lot to say, helping people discover a better

1200
00:59:02,065 --> 00:59:07,728
way, with discourse and social action framed by unity. Now

1201
00:59:07,729 --> 00:59:10,532
the time has come to lift our game and apply

1202
00:59:10,533 --> 00:59:13,716
the teachings of the Greatest Name and rise to meet

1203
00:59:13,717 --> 00:59:17,570
the glory of our destiny.

1204
00:59:17,571 --> 00:59:20,580
Join the conversation for social

1205
00:59:20,581 --> 00:59:24,190
transformation.  Society Builders.

1206
00:59:27,650 --> 00:59:33,050
Join the conversation for social transformation. Society

1207
00:59:33,051 --> 00:59:41,060
Builders.