WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:01.760 Matt: Ross Johnson, welcome to the WP Minute, 00:00:02.585 --> 00:00:03.035 Ross: Hey, Matt. 00:00:03.035 --> 00:00:03.725 Thanks for having me on. 00:00:04.680 --> 00:00:07.900 Matt: here to talk about all things, why I still run a 00:00:07.900 --> 00:00:10.060 WordPress agency in the year 2025. 00:00:10.930 --> 00:00:14.210 Ross: I, I ask myself that quite often, to be honest. 00:00:15.330 --> 00:00:16.619 Matt: how long have you been running your agency? 00:00:17.580 --> 00:00:18.390 Ross: Quite a while. 00:00:18.450 --> 00:00:23.220 I officially registered the, it was a DBA initially in like 2005. 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:27.960 I think I had like one project early 2005 that didn't go well. 00:00:28.020 --> 00:00:28.830 Big surprise. 00:00:29.250 --> 00:00:32.450 And then, really didn't pick it back up until maybe early 2006, 00:00:32.450 --> 00:00:37.340 so kind of pushing officially 20 years now, which is wild to say. 00:00:37.340 --> 00:00:38.450 I'm feeling pretty old. 00:00:39.095 --> 00:00:39.545 Matt: Nice. 00:00:39.635 --> 00:00:40.055 Nice. 00:00:40.545 --> 00:00:42.105 lots of has changed. 00:00:42.135 --> 00:00:42.705 Lots of change. 00:00:42.705 --> 00:00:44.205 Lots of have stayed the same. 00:00:44.265 --> 00:00:47.645 And, you know, to, to like frame that, like, of course like technology 00:00:47.645 --> 00:00:51.425 has changed, like the politics of of WordPress have changed. 00:00:51.815 --> 00:00:54.665 competitors have come into the space, like AI have changed. 00:00:55.235 --> 00:00:58.025 But I would also argue that like servicing customers, even 00:00:58.025 --> 00:00:59.135 in the face of all that has. 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:03.710 Probably stayed kind of similar to like when things started 00:01:03.860 --> 00:01:05.150 air quotes 20 years ago. 00:01:05.240 --> 00:01:07.130 And I wanna dive into, all of that. 00:01:07.130 --> 00:01:08.900 But before we do, let's give you the kudos first. 00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:12.260 Where can folks go to find more about you and your agency? 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:14.310 What's the best place, that they should visit? 00:01:15.090 --> 00:01:19.970 Ross: I think just, our website, which is three period seven designs do co 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:22.170 three period seven designs at co. 00:01:22.170 --> 00:01:22.935 So it's 3.7 00:01:22.935 --> 00:01:26.215 designs and we officially own seven designs that CO. 00:01:26.235 --> 00:01:27.335 And three is a subdomain. 00:01:28.170 --> 00:01:28.710 Matt: Nice. 00:01:28.710 --> 00:01:29.220 Nice. 00:01:29.610 --> 00:01:33.280 so 20 years ago, WordPress was, was quite different. 00:01:33.660 --> 00:01:37.530 you were servicing customers that were, well, I'll let you define it. 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:40.950 Did you cast a wide net like I did and just pull anything back 00:01:40.950 --> 00:01:42.420 onto the boat that said yes. 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:45.330 And how did that like change over time for you? 00:01:46.095 --> 00:01:46.965 Ross: Yeah, pretty much. 00:01:46.965 --> 00:01:49.125 You know, when you're starting off, and I was pretty young, I was in my. 00:01:49.905 --> 00:01:51.765 Kind of mid twenties at the time. 00:01:51.845 --> 00:01:54.035 yeah, it was really basically anybody who would say yes. 00:01:54.395 --> 00:01:57.665 I was positioning myself more as like a designer at the time. 00:01:57.765 --> 00:02:01.575 even though I had a strong background in technology and like my first 00:02:01.575 --> 00:02:04.355 client was, was more or less a website, like I was doing it. 00:02:04.710 --> 00:02:07.595 And, and when you're doing it in the nineties, they're like, 00:02:07.595 --> 00:02:08.795 wow, you do the website too. 00:02:09.575 --> 00:02:12.215 And I found I enjoyed that a lot more than like troubleshooting email. 00:02:12.725 --> 00:02:13.475 but I. 00:02:13.805 --> 00:02:14.825 Yeah, it was more of a designer. 00:02:14.825 --> 00:02:16.565 There's like the, the direction I was going in. 00:02:16.615 --> 00:02:18.265 but it ended up being more and more web like. 00:02:18.265 --> 00:02:23.095 That's where kind of based on my age and getting into the market, like a 00:02:23.095 --> 00:02:26.605 lot of the clients I was running into wanted to hire more of like a bigger 00:02:26.755 --> 00:02:31.555 professional design company compared to a 20-year-old to do like their branding. 00:02:31.625 --> 00:02:34.265 but they had no problem handing off the website because that was new. 00:02:34.785 --> 00:02:37.035 but yeah, to start it was just anybody who said yes. 00:02:37.085 --> 00:02:38.315 so it was all over the board. 00:02:38.525 --> 00:02:39.965 And then, you know, it. 00:02:39.965 --> 00:02:43.895 It's, it, it's, it's interesting how it changes and, and everybody says you 00:02:43.895 --> 00:02:47.135 should niche down, and we're kind of only getting to that point now, but your, 00:02:47.465 --> 00:02:49.085 your clientele always changes, right? 00:02:49.085 --> 00:02:51.035 Like, I'm sure you experienced the same thing, like the first people 00:02:51.035 --> 00:02:53.615 you're talking to, even if you're not picking an industry compared to 00:02:53.615 --> 00:02:57.095 like who you are talking to, like a year or two years, or three years. 00:02:57.185 --> 00:02:58.625 Like their characteristics change. 00:02:58.655 --> 00:03:00.695 And that's certainly, you know, what we were experiencing. 00:03:01.925 --> 00:03:08.045 Matt: Yeah, that that's, it's, it's hard to prepare for, it's hard for 00:03:08.045 --> 00:03:12.635 even for me to even like illustrate the advice for an agency owner. 00:03:12.695 --> 00:03:18.545 I kind of look at it as like, you do 80% of your, like, core work, let's 00:03:18.545 --> 00:03:22.865 say, on a, on a given week or month, but then like 20% of that time. 00:03:24.125 --> 00:03:29.135 I think a good agency owner is also like experimenting either with like 00:03:29.345 --> 00:03:33.395 experimenting with a new kind of customer or like a customer in a different 00:03:33.395 --> 00:03:40.025 market or experi or experimenting with like how you are adjusting your own 00:03:40.025 --> 00:03:44.195 marketing and sales pitch and like adjusting like, oh, maybe we should. 00:03:44.570 --> 00:03:46.970 You know, we'll use Gravity forms my employer as an example. 00:03:46.970 --> 00:03:49.040 Like maybe we'll never do this at home kids. 00:03:49.040 --> 00:03:51.920 So like, maybe we should be thinking about another plugin we should use in its place. 00:03:52.200 --> 00:03:55.740 and you're like experimenting with like another suite of tools, which 00:03:55.770 --> 00:03:57.330 helps like find that customer. 00:03:57.690 --> 00:03:59.940 Is, is that 80 20 rule, does that stick with you? 00:03:59.940 --> 00:04:00.780 Or how do you, 00:04:01.665 --> 00:04:02.685 Ross: Yeah, I would say so. 00:04:02.855 --> 00:04:05.225 yeah, generally that, I mean, that sounds about right, like there's, things are 00:04:05.225 --> 00:04:09.155 always changing and you know, one of the mindsets we have over at the agency 00:04:09.155 --> 00:04:10.895 is that, you know, nothing is perfect. 00:04:10.895 --> 00:04:11.225 Like nothing. 00:04:11.255 --> 00:04:12.695 Everything's basically our first draft. 00:04:12.695 --> 00:04:14.945 So like everything's on the table to, to change. 00:04:15.425 --> 00:04:18.965 And it's almost like every time you go through a project you should be. 00:04:19.490 --> 00:04:23.450 Thinking about like what went well and what didn't go well and trying 00:04:23.450 --> 00:04:27.200 to identify places to improve and that includes new tooling. 00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:32.530 and you know, it's interesting as the, the plugin market has really kind of 00:04:32.530 --> 00:04:37.150 exploded and I guess over the last 10 years, it's not something new, but, some 00:04:37.190 --> 00:04:41.095 of the plugins out there that were just like the only go-to solution like Gravity 00:04:41.095 --> 00:04:42.535 forums or Yost or something like that. 00:04:42.535 --> 00:04:45.415 Now there's a lot of really good competitors out there, and I. 00:04:46.165 --> 00:04:49.255 You know, for us, we found for a long time we're kind of using those same 00:04:49.255 --> 00:04:53.455 plugins and then realizing we should try some of these other ones because 00:04:53.665 --> 00:04:57.175 they might be a better fit for our clients or they might be more efficient. 00:04:57.275 --> 00:05:00.455 and yeah, there is kind of that element of figuring out how do 00:05:00.455 --> 00:05:02.285 you do that experimentation? 00:05:02.285 --> 00:05:04.205 Like are you doing it on a client project site? 00:05:04.385 --> 00:05:06.365 which you could do, but there's certain risks to that. 00:05:06.845 --> 00:05:10.925 But you could also kind of have your own desk projects or some sort of process 00:05:10.925 --> 00:05:12.755 for trying 'em out and evaluating them. 00:05:13.440 --> 00:05:13.640 Matt: Yeah. 00:05:14.575 --> 00:05:18.335 I'm fresh off the heels of a, a podcast I just recorded with, mark Zamanski. 00:05:18.365 --> 00:05:22.515 And we were trying to like, break down the definition of, WordPress professional 00:05:22.515 --> 00:05:27.075 because I think he, probably takes, offense is probably not the right 00:05:27.075 --> 00:05:31.365 word, but he, he wants folks to be like, look, you can't just keep saying 00:05:31.365 --> 00:05:34.755 like, you're not, you're a WordPress professional if you only do these things. 00:05:34.755 --> 00:05:37.125 And by these things like commonly thrown around like. 00:05:38.145 --> 00:05:40.515 If you're not using GitHub and version control for your projects, 00:05:40.515 --> 00:05:41.565 you are not a professional. 00:05:41.565 --> 00:05:45.525 If you're using a page builder, you are, you know, you're not a professional. 00:05:45.915 --> 00:05:50.365 I see it as different, like maybe tiers of professionalism, that, that 00:05:50.365 --> 00:05:54.725 sort of, you know, that, that sort of, unfold throughout your experience. 00:05:55.355 --> 00:05:59.735 And let me just hit you with, with this, with this GitHub and revision control 00:05:59.735 --> 00:06:03.815 thing, because this was something too, like when I started my agency. 00:06:04.925 --> 00:06:07.085 It was just like, Hey, can you build a website for me? 00:06:07.085 --> 00:06:07.325 Yeah. 00:06:07.760 --> 00:06:10.910 And you start like hacking together WordPress, and then you discover 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:15.410 like themes and you're like, oh, like this theme is a great starter theme. 00:06:15.710 --> 00:06:19.910 But then you realize like a year later, like, oh, these $69 themes 00:06:19.910 --> 00:06:23.150 that you're buying from theme forest don't come with any like true support. 00:06:23.150 --> 00:06:23.990 And then you discover. 00:06:24.285 --> 00:06:26.925 Let's say Genesis and Studio Press and you're like, oh, there's 00:06:26.925 --> 00:06:29.625 like a whole team behind this and you, okay, like this makes sense. 00:06:29.715 --> 00:06:31.395 And then you load onto that, right? 00:06:31.395 --> 00:06:32.925 And then page builders come, right? 00:06:32.925 --> 00:06:35.745 And then you'd realize like, oh my God, I'm building a big project with 00:06:35.745 --> 00:06:37.245 multiple people who are working on it. 00:06:37.275 --> 00:06:39.495 I probably need this thing called version control. 00:06:39.615 --> 00:06:39.765 Right? 00:06:39.765 --> 00:06:43.260 So it's just like this long learning journey. 00:06:43.260 --> 00:06:48.315 But could I wonder if you can unpack like why people maybe point at 00:06:48.315 --> 00:06:52.695 version Control as like that next level of like being a professional? 00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:54.860 Ross: Yeah, that's a good question. 00:06:54.860 --> 00:06:56.810 I mean, I, I'm more along the lines of. 00:06:56.980 --> 00:06:59.770 like my thought process is you are like, I don't think we should exclude 00:06:59.770 --> 00:07:03.940 anybody based on, you know, a very specific skillset, especially if 00:07:03.940 --> 00:07:07.210 we're calling using terms as broad as like WordPress professional. 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:13.000 Like in my opinion, like if you're getting paid to deliver value through WordPress, 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.730 like you're a WordPress professional, like if you have some skills there, 00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:19.420 it doesn't necessarily have to be that you're a dev, like a developer who 00:07:19.630 --> 00:07:22.820 writes code and uses version control. 00:07:22.870 --> 00:07:24.310 I mean, these days I don't do a lot of. 00:07:24.615 --> 00:07:27.615 Writing of code or using GitHub or version control. 00:07:27.615 --> 00:07:30.705 But I could still consider myself in many ways, a WordPress professional. 00:07:31.265 --> 00:07:35.255 or even if you were to look at like, you know, people who have a WordPress 00:07:35.255 --> 00:07:38.555 plugin business, a lot of 'em are not developers who are using version control. 00:07:38.555 --> 00:07:40.025 Are they still WordPress professionals? 00:07:40.505 --> 00:07:44.135 so I, I think if I had to guess as far as like, why does that 00:07:44.195 --> 00:07:45.875 get picked out Singularity. 00:07:45.875 --> 00:07:48.815 It, it might be that, a lot of the evolution in WordPress 00:07:48.815 --> 00:07:50.135 might have started with. 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:56.810 Developers, and so there is this sense that you're not really using the platform 00:07:56.810 --> 00:08:00.320 to its full extent if you're not kind of a certain level in the weeds of, 00:08:00.410 --> 00:08:03.470 you know, getting under the hood and actually writing code and committing it. 00:08:04.355 --> 00:08:08.630 Matt: Yeah, I think there's like this, As I was explaining to, to mark on, 00:08:08.690 --> 00:08:12.800 on the podcast, it's like a fe like the whole like version control thing 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:15.560 is like a feature of a professional. 00:08:15.995 --> 00:08:16.295 Ross: Right. 00:08:16.970 --> 00:08:22.070 Matt: and generally it's associated with, you know, that that higher ticket project, 00:08:22.070 --> 00:08:23.390 'cause you're really not using like. 00:08:23.990 --> 00:08:28.280 If you're building a, a quick five page portfolio site for a local bakery, 00:08:28.580 --> 00:08:31.790 you're probably not syncing it up to GitHub and, and having a repo, right? 00:08:31.790 --> 00:08:37.330 It's, it's, it's very easy to be like, oh, that website over there is, you know, when 00:08:37.330 --> 00:08:41.230 they call in for support, you know, your team knows like, oh yeah, it's cadence. 00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:42.790 You just log in and you change the font. 00:08:43.150 --> 00:08:44.740 They want that change the font to 18 point. 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:45.820 Okay, just log into cadence. 00:08:46.090 --> 00:08:49.600 But then if you have like an enterprise client who. 00:08:50.020 --> 00:08:53.980 You've built like this bespoke app for with WordPress integrated into 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:58.750 some like ERP system that they have, and they ask for a support request. 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:02.110 Well, you're not, you're not messing around with like undocumented 00:09:02.110 --> 00:09:04.960 changes for that customer over there. 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.460 So you know, your support team is gonna go well, let's just see like, 00:09:09.520 --> 00:09:12.070 okay, we're gonna make a change and we're gonna commit it to the repo and 00:09:12.070 --> 00:09:13.390 it's gonna go to the testing site. 00:09:13.630 --> 00:09:16.060 And then we'll send that testing site link to the customer and 00:09:16.060 --> 00:09:17.050 say, is this what you wanted? 00:09:17.050 --> 00:09:19.120 Enterprise customer who pays me a lot of money? 00:09:19.330 --> 00:09:20.410 And they say, yes, that's it. 00:09:20.410 --> 00:09:21.220 And you go, okay. 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:25.180 And you, you commit that branch to the main branch of their production site. 00:09:25.210 --> 00:09:25.390 Right? 00:09:25.390 --> 00:09:29.140 And there's a whole process there, even if it was just an H one that you changed, 00:09:29.210 --> 00:09:29.630 Ross: Mm-hmm. 00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:30.230 Right. 00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:33.550 Matt: that's the process because that's what, that's what they're paying you for. 00:09:34.060 --> 00:09:35.176 having said all of that is, is. 00:09:35.965 --> 00:09:39.955 Is that how you, box customers in, in, in your agency world? 00:09:39.955 --> 00:09:43.585 Like do you have like those smaller clients and bigger clients, and are the 00:09:43.585 --> 00:09:45.295 expectations in the process different? 00:09:46.180 --> 00:09:48.430 Ross: Yeah, I would say to some extent, I mean, it's, it's not as 00:09:48.430 --> 00:09:51.685 big maybe as what you're describing, those, those two examples. 00:09:51.735 --> 00:09:54.795 but yeah, certainly we've got one client that's like exactly like you described 00:09:54.795 --> 00:09:58.365 where if we're gonna make any small change, let's go through like multiple 00:09:58.365 --> 00:10:00.165 steps of, you know, we're pushing it. 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:01.860 You know, we're working on a dev site. 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:04.680 We push it to staging, they have to review it there, then it has to be accessibility, 00:10:04.680 --> 00:10:07.320 tested this to be a security scan. 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:08.610 Then we can't deploy the code. 00:10:08.610 --> 00:10:11.400 We put in a ticket and then they deploy the code and then there's 00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:12.990 like a testing process after that. 00:10:13.810 --> 00:10:16.180 and then we have other clients that, yeah, they're just like, do 00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:18.370 it like they have the controls. 00:10:18.430 --> 00:10:21.280 They could log in, they know how to change it, but they, that's not what 00:10:21.280 --> 00:10:22.870 they're, they want to do with their time. 00:10:23.290 --> 00:10:26.920 And it's interesting, it's not necessarily, I mean, for us, 'cause 00:10:26.920 --> 00:10:31.060 we don't work with like a whole lot of like really big enterprise clients. 00:10:31.160 --> 00:10:33.740 like Fortune, you know, 500 sort of clients. 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:37.520 But, you know, there, there isn't like a huge distinction between how much 00:10:37.520 --> 00:10:39.230 they're paying and their expectations. 00:10:39.230 --> 00:10:42.960 It's, it's more just, kinda how their IT department seems to 00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:46.020 like how much they care or wanna have their hands in the process. 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:47.240 but that's just us personally. 00:10:47.810 --> 00:10:50.690 But you know, to, to take a step back real quickly, you were talking about, you know, 00:10:50.690 --> 00:10:55.520 version control and those two different examples and it occurs to me like it, it's 00:10:55.520 --> 00:10:59.360 an interesting question of like, how do we even define version control because, 00:10:59.630 --> 00:11:05.000 you know, is using the backup system in your managed hosting version control. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.090 I mean, if you have a mostly database driven website, like something 00:11:08.090 --> 00:11:10.160 built in cadence, I'd argue it is. 00:11:10.310 --> 00:11:14.210 So are we kind of narrowing down that like you're not a professional 00:11:14.210 --> 00:11:17.150 unless you're using like this very specific type of version control. 00:11:17.795 --> 00:11:19.685 And I think that's, you know, pretty exclusionary. 00:11:19.685 --> 00:11:22.170 I think there's a lot of professionals out there doing great work who aren't 00:11:22.170 --> 00:11:24.170 necessarily even need to do that. 00:11:24.230 --> 00:11:24.650 Mm-hmm. 00:11:25.610 --> 00:11:30.660 Matt: I ca I came up with like the three C's of, professionalism, which, made 00:11:30.660 --> 00:11:33.630 sense in my head when I came up with it, but now it doesn't make as much sense as 00:11:33.630 --> 00:11:35.160 when I say it out loud 10 minutes later. 00:11:36.490 --> 00:11:39.820 but like the three C's of like, like you care first and foremost, 00:11:39.820 --> 00:11:42.820 like it, you know, presenting the question of like, what makes up a 00:11:42.820 --> 00:11:47.530 WordPress professional or I guess any professional in, in, in my eyes is like. 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:50.620 You care about the work that you're doing, number one, like. 00:11:51.745 --> 00:11:53.455 That means that like, this is a pursuit. 00:11:53.525 --> 00:11:56.495 we said the 80 20 thing before, it's like, like that right there 00:11:56.495 --> 00:11:57.755 is like the evolution of caring. 00:11:57.755 --> 00:12:01.235 Like I care about the work that I'm putting out because it satisfies me. 00:12:01.235 --> 00:12:05.135 It satisfies, you know, others and I'm constantly like trying 00:12:05.135 --> 00:12:06.215 to make this thing better. 00:12:06.275 --> 00:12:07.565 I care about the work. 00:12:08.045 --> 00:12:10.295 Second, C is like, I care about the customer. 00:12:10.745 --> 00:12:15.335 Like I care that this work that I am constantly refining this craft. 00:12:15.905 --> 00:12:19.265 I'm constantly refining, like I'm putting that to good use for the customer, 00:12:19.385 --> 00:12:20.975 and they're asking me questions. 00:12:20.975 --> 00:12:21.665 I'm answering it. 00:12:21.665 --> 00:12:23.975 Can I solve this for you with the stuff that I know? 00:12:24.215 --> 00:12:24.725 Yes. 00:12:25.235 --> 00:12:28.055 And if not, maybe you should be saying no in that. 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:30.530 In that second phase and saying like, Hey, customer, like what 00:12:30.530 --> 00:12:31.790 you're asking for is not me. 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:34.980 Maybe I'll go find somebody else for you, but, it's not us. 00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:36.870 And that's like caring about the customer. 00:12:36.990 --> 00:12:40.800 And then the third C is just like you care about your own business. 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:45.510 Like you care about the sustainability of your business so that all this hard 00:12:45.510 --> 00:12:49.830 work you've put, you know, into learning the first C when you're applying that to 00:12:49.890 --> 00:12:52.530 caring for the customer, it's profitable. 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:55.080 And it's, it's there so you can survive. 00:12:55.110 --> 00:12:59.220 So the business can, so the business can be there to serve that customer, 00:12:59.430 --> 00:13:03.300 not just now for the website, but a year, two years, five years later. 00:13:03.300 --> 00:13:05.400 I'm sure you have customers that have been with you forever, 00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:06.780 since you started your agency. 00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:08.100 and that's an important thing. 00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:09.360 That's how I've defined it. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:12.990 Those three Cs, would you add to that or do you see it a different way? 00:13:13.875 --> 00:13:14.985 Ross: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:13:14.985 --> 00:13:16.515 I, I wouldn't necessarily add to that. 00:13:16.515 --> 00:13:21.765 I mean, the way I typically think about it is, you know, if you are, yeah, I guess 00:13:21.765 --> 00:13:26.715 if you're delivering value, And showing up for the customer and you're reliable 00:13:27.135 --> 00:13:29.195 and, helping them accomplish their goals. 00:13:29.195 --> 00:13:31.535 It really doesn't matter about like how you're going about it. 00:13:31.725 --> 00:13:34.305 I, I think those things are what define you as professional, not 00:13:34.305 --> 00:13:37.305 necessarily like the process or the tools or the techniques. 00:13:37.395 --> 00:13:37.455 I. 00:13:37.670 --> 00:13:37.960 Matt: Yeah. 00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:39.630 Where do you land? 00:13:39.630 --> 00:13:41.010 we were chatting before we hit record. 00:13:41.010 --> 00:13:44.190 Where do you land on the page builder landscape? 00:13:44.190 --> 00:13:46.740 Is that something that you incorporate into your workflow? 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.120 Is everything built, by hand? 00:13:49.430 --> 00:13:50.420 crafted by hand? 00:13:51.300 --> 00:13:54.520 in the north, central North, of the United States? 00:13:54.520 --> 00:13:56.630 How do you, use page builders for you? 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.410 Ross: Yeah, this is something that like, like just in the last few 00:14:00.410 --> 00:14:03.020 months, we're exploring shifting. 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.870 so for the longest time everything was completely custom. 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:10.500 Like we had our own custom theme, you know, that was a, iteration 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:15.240 of underscores and, you know, before Gutenberg blocks we were. 00:14:15.855 --> 00:14:18.375 Building mostly like complex layouts with a CF. 00:14:18.945 --> 00:14:23.425 And then a few years ago we decided to lean into, you know, block-based, 00:14:23.495 --> 00:14:27.515 layouts and started extending and building our own custom blocks. 00:14:27.605 --> 00:14:34.055 And we kind of got to a point maybe last year, you know, it occurred to us 00:14:34.060 --> 00:14:35.915 that why are we reinventing the wheel? 00:14:36.245 --> 00:14:39.335 Like we're spending a lot of time and money, both our client's 00:14:39.335 --> 00:14:41.435 money and, and agency money, like. 00:14:41.795 --> 00:14:45.575 Building and extending these tools, these custom blocks, when there's 00:14:45.905 --> 00:14:50.525 better solutions out there than what we were building for much less like, 00:14:50.625 --> 00:14:51.855 you know, generate press, for example. 00:14:51.855 --> 00:14:54.645 You can get, generate blocks, I think for like a hundred bucks a year, which 00:14:54.645 --> 00:14:58.245 is like one billable, like less than one billable hour, you know, for a client. 00:14:58.425 --> 00:15:02.595 And the amount of time and effort put into, you know, that solution 00:15:02.595 --> 00:15:06.175 and the amount of, testing that's been done compared to ours, it's 00:15:06.175 --> 00:15:07.615 just like, it doesn't even compare. 00:15:08.875 --> 00:15:09.085 So. 00:15:10.060 --> 00:15:13.630 You know, with that, and also looking at, I know a lot of people don't love, you 00:15:13.630 --> 00:15:18.410 know, block themes currently, but like that is a direction in other, platforms 00:15:18.410 --> 00:15:20.930 that are gaining traction, like web flow. 00:15:21.260 --> 00:15:24.230 Like personally, I see that as like the future of building websites. 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:28.520 I think there's going to be less and less hand coding websites and 00:15:28.520 --> 00:15:31.710 layouts in CSS, just across the board. 00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:34.560 Not just websites, but even web applications. 00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:37.470 Like AI at some point is gonna be able to take a Figma file and like. 00:15:37.830 --> 00:15:41.640 Or whatever we're using right at the time, and just build the layouts itself. 00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:43.915 Like we won't necessarily need somebody to be doing that. 00:15:44.870 --> 00:15:45.890 Matt: Right, right. 00:15:46.280 --> 00:15:49.940 Do you remember how you, how did you come about making that decision to 00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:52.130 be like, we've got our own tooling. 00:15:52.130 --> 00:15:55.820 We've been using it for, you know, whatever, 10 years and now 00:15:55.820 --> 00:15:58.640 we're gonna switch to a more, what I'll call retail product. 00:15:58.775 --> 00:15:58.895 I. 00:15:59.635 --> 00:16:02.805 Ross: basically every single project we quote, we went. 00:16:03.235 --> 00:16:04.255 Way over budget. 00:16:04.495 --> 00:16:08.365 and it didn't matter like how much, how many hours we'd throw at it. 00:16:08.365 --> 00:16:11.035 We'd just keep adding more and more and more, and we'd always go over budget. 00:16:11.365 --> 00:16:15.415 And it was almost always in the development time and the QA time. 00:16:15.775 --> 00:16:18.715 because the amount of things that we would find that need resolution, 00:16:18.715 --> 00:16:20.785 because everything was, you know, custom built for that site. 00:16:21.535 --> 00:16:23.875 So kind of after 00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:29.050 Matt: You'd go over budget, you'd go over budget on your own, on your own hours that 00:16:29.050 --> 00:16:31.330 you, that you scoped out for the project. 00:16:31.390 --> 00:16:31.840 Ross: Right, 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:34.450 Matt: You weren't taking it over budget for your client. 00:16:34.570 --> 00:16:35.500 You were just eating. 00:16:35.560 --> 00:16:36.880 You were eating that cost. 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:37.570 Ross: Yeah. 00:16:37.810 --> 00:16:38.560 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:42.190 And not like, a little bit like there were times we'd be hundreds of hours over, 00:16:42.580 --> 00:16:46.420 and so we kind of had to say like, well, we need to do something about this, and. 00:16:46.795 --> 00:16:49.285 You know, spent some time kind of analyzing, you know, 00:16:49.285 --> 00:16:50.425 what is contributing to this. 00:16:50.425 --> 00:16:53.155 And part of it was, you know, reinventing the wheel all the time. 00:16:53.245 --> 00:16:57.175 And also, just not having the internal time and an agency to like really 00:16:57.175 --> 00:16:58.765 build our own product, so to speak. 00:16:58.765 --> 00:17:01.765 Like we weren't gonna get into like the custom page builder space because that's 00:17:01.765 --> 00:17:05.815 so competitive that it just, you'd have to dedicate like your entire company to that. 00:17:05.815 --> 00:17:09.495 So that didn't make sense to like invest it in it to that level, to get it to a 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:10.350 Matt: own page builders. 00:17:10.350 --> 00:17:10.620 To make 00:17:10.635 --> 00:17:12.795 Ross: Yeah, to make our own page builders essentially to the place 00:17:12.795 --> 00:17:15.285 where we wouldn't be losing money, you know, every time we built a 00:17:15.285 --> 00:17:16.755 site, like getting 'em to that level. 00:17:17.205 --> 00:17:20.775 And so, yeah, we started looking at other solutions and, you know, I did a 00:17:20.775 --> 00:17:24.675 few tests for it to see like, how long did it take me to build out, you know, a 00:17:24.675 --> 00:17:29.695 layout that we did, that we custom built using, you know, a various page builders. 00:17:29.695 --> 00:17:32.755 And it was like 10% of the time, you know, like it would take me 00:17:32.755 --> 00:17:37.105 three hours compared to like 10, you know, for, for what we did custom. 00:17:38.415 --> 00:17:39.675 Matt: And, and what was the pro like? 00:17:39.675 --> 00:17:41.295 What did custom look like? 00:17:41.345 --> 00:17:46.175 'cause I think it's important that folks who are just living in have, 00:17:46.775 --> 00:17:48.395 we're in a whole new cohort, you and I, 00:17:48.765 --> 00:17:49.065 Ross: Yeah, 00:17:49.305 --> 00:17:51.195 Matt: or there's a whole new, there's a whole new cohort now. 00:17:51.195 --> 00:17:52.185 Like you and I are old. 00:17:52.405 --> 00:17:55.915 we've been doing this for a while and, and, and what we haven't. 00:17:56.185 --> 00:17:59.305 I think what the mistake that a lot of us have made that have been here 00:17:59.305 --> 00:18:03.025 for a while is there's like a whole new cohort of people who have, are 00:18:03.025 --> 00:18:07.115 building and delivering websites who consider, who are developers, consider 00:18:07.115 --> 00:18:11.105 themselves developers in the sense that you and I consider ourselves developers. 00:18:11.105 --> 00:18:15.985 'cause we used to hand write code, in Notepad plus plus, way back in the day. 00:18:16.315 --> 00:18:20.695 but now there's a whole cohort that have come in because of like Elementor, right? 00:18:20.695 --> 00:18:22.255 And, and that, and, and that's how they've. 00:18:22.555 --> 00:18:24.985 Developed websites and they are developers. 00:18:24.985 --> 00:18:28.615 It's just like a different way of developing WordPress websites. 00:18:29.065 --> 00:18:31.615 and I'm saying all that because I think people are like, oh, I, I did it. 00:18:31.675 --> 00:18:32.695 We've been doing it custom. 00:18:32.875 --> 00:18:36.845 A lot of people think that they're doing it custom with Elementor, or page builder. 00:18:36.845 --> 00:18:38.495 So what does custom look like? 00:18:38.495 --> 00:18:41.285 Where you were like, oh man, we're going 10, 20, a hundred hours 00:18:41.285 --> 00:18:42.545 over doing it our custom way. 00:18:42.545 --> 00:18:43.475 What, what did that look like? 00:18:44.430 --> 00:18:46.080 Ross: Yeah, no, that's a very important distinction. 00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:49.400 because you can build completely custom websites using Elementor, 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.830 any of these page builders, like, that's what's great about 'em is 00:18:51.830 --> 00:18:55.040 they don't really do a whole lot of restricting, of what you're building. 00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:58.070 You're not starting from something and trying to iterate on top of it. 00:18:58.070 --> 00:19:01.130 So what custom meant to us is, yeah, we had this like very bare 00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:03.300 bones theme, based on underscores. 00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:06.090 So you install it and there's, you know, no colors, barely any 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:07.560 typography, no layout, nothing. 00:19:08.475 --> 00:19:13.455 And then on top of that, we had kind of our own set of custom WordPress 00:19:13.455 --> 00:19:18.325 blocks, including like some extensions to some of the existing blocks. 00:19:18.325 --> 00:19:22.075 So like we, we'd have, we'd add certain settings to like the columns and, you 00:19:22.075 --> 00:19:23.185 know, group blocks, stuff like that. 00:19:23.935 --> 00:19:27.475 But, you know, essentially we're looking at a blank page and rather 00:19:27.475 --> 00:19:31.855 than, you know, configuring and building the front end of the site. 00:19:32.125 --> 00:19:35.065 Through the admin, like you would with a page builder. 00:19:35.305 --> 00:19:38.665 We're writing everything custom, you know, like custom template files and 00:19:38.665 --> 00:19:44.275 HTML and custom CSS, to build all these layouts and in the front end. 00:19:44.345 --> 00:19:48.275 so almost everything was done in code, almost nothing, not almost nothing Over 00:19:48.275 --> 00:19:52.145 time, like more and more got to be done in the browser because we were using blocks. 00:19:52.325 --> 00:19:55.565 but a vast majority of it was actually writing code 00:19:55.565 --> 00:19:58.865 versus using a user interface. 00:19:58.965 --> 00:20:01.485 And I don't think using a user interface means you're not a developer. 00:20:01.815 --> 00:20:04.425 I mean, it might not, it might mean you're not like a computer, 00:20:04.455 --> 00:20:05.955 like a software engineer. 00:20:06.435 --> 00:20:09.285 but I still think you're like, you're developing a website, you're building it. 00:20:10.080 --> 00:20:10.380 Matt: Yeah. 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:11.880 What did that mean? 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.490 What did the custom side, what, what else was the expense 00:20:14.490 --> 00:20:15.810 of the, of the custom side? 00:20:15.810 --> 00:20:20.760 Was it, was it just writing the code custom every time the customer 00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:24.090 had the request, we realized, man, we're way over budget. 00:20:24.090 --> 00:20:28.470 With this internally, was it collaborating like a develop? 00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:31.005 Maybe you have a backend developer who starts developing a feature. 00:20:31.935 --> 00:20:35.625 Now that person goes off on vacation, somebody else has to hop in and, and 00:20:35.745 --> 00:20:37.215 pick up from where they left off. 00:20:37.245 --> 00:20:40.485 And there was like, you know, overhead there of catching up 00:20:40.485 --> 00:20:43.605 with the project and, you know, understanding like where the code was. 00:20:43.935 --> 00:20:51.135 what other challenges did you face with custom coding, other than just the 00:20:51.135 --> 00:20:52.815 features that you were building, if any? 00:20:53.945 --> 00:20:56.465 Ross: Yeah, certainly the more developers that we'd have on a single 00:20:56.465 --> 00:20:58.535 project, it would add a lot more hours. 00:20:58.635 --> 00:20:58.665 I. 00:20:58.665 --> 00:21:00.340 You know, we could potentially move faster 'cause people could 00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:01.750 be working on things concurrently. 00:21:02.090 --> 00:21:03.800 there's a lot more coordination that's needed. 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:07.260 so typically we'd have like a lead developer who's kind of overseeing the 00:21:07.260 --> 00:21:11.070 project and then they would delegate components to the other developers. 00:21:11.670 --> 00:21:14.010 But that requires a lot of documentation and getting people 00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:15.990 up to speed and filling in context. 00:21:16.290 --> 00:21:19.170 And then there's a lot of coordination to even discuss like, okay, I'm done 00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:20.790 with this, you're ready to merge it in. 00:21:20.850 --> 00:21:23.310 And then like code reviews and that sort of thing. 00:21:23.310 --> 00:21:24.990 So that certainly had a whole lot of time. 00:21:25.170 --> 00:21:29.550 Also, and this is still a challenge that we're gonna run into, but trying to. 00:21:31.075 --> 00:21:34.530 I'm trying to kind of not have what's called scope seep. 00:21:34.530 --> 00:21:37.530 So you know, if you're not familiar with it, scope creep is when the client 00:21:37.530 --> 00:21:41.760 is asking for features or additional work and you're not charging for 'em. 00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:43.830 Scope seep is when you're introducing it yourself. 00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:47.700 And we had that, that issue quite a lot where, you know, we're all really 00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:50.250 passionate about what we do and we kind of be working on something and 00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:53.550 think like, ah, just be like that much better if we did like this, you 00:21:53.550 --> 00:21:57.510 know, additional, you know, little bit of work on it and that can really, 00:21:57.610 --> 00:21:59.350 It really snowballed really quickly. 00:21:59.350 --> 00:22:01.570 Like, you know, we're working on a custom login screen. 00:22:02.050 --> 00:22:05.590 you know, there's so many components potentially associated with that. 00:22:05.590 --> 00:22:09.010 There's like the reset state, like, oh, what do the error messages look like, 00:22:09.070 --> 00:22:11.020 you know, What happens after you log in? 00:22:11.020 --> 00:22:12.070 What's the page you land on? 00:22:12.070 --> 00:22:15.460 So if you haven't scoped like this kind of full end-to-end journey of 00:22:15.520 --> 00:22:19.210 designing and building this custom login workflow, it's more just 00:22:19.210 --> 00:22:21.130 trying to skin the WordPress one. 00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:24.370 You can spend a lot more time there and it's great for the client. 00:22:24.520 --> 00:22:27.280 and obviously you want to overdeliver, but you can sync a lot 00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:28.810 hours if you're not careful There. 00:22:29.290 --> 00:22:29.860 Matt: Yeah. 00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:30.550 Yeah, for sure. 00:22:30.550 --> 00:22:34.010 I mean, yes, definitely have done that, certainly in the past. 00:22:34.370 --> 00:22:37.610 I'm wondering, I know this is kind of early on in, in, you know, what 00:22:37.610 --> 00:22:42.620 I'll call your experiment, but, I'm wondering if this opens up the custom 00:22:42.620 --> 00:22:45.350 side as an opportunity for the business. 00:22:45.350 --> 00:22:50.390 In other words, now that you've kind of like found some efficiencies with, Using 00:22:50.390 --> 00:22:54.730 an off the shelf solution, which is weird to say in WordPress in the year 2025. 00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:54.910 But 00:22:55.520 --> 00:22:55.810 Ross: Yeah. 00:22:56.080 --> 00:22:58.580 Matt: as you, you find, you find these efficiencies, with 00:22:58.580 --> 00:22:59.630 the off the shelf solution. 00:22:59.630 --> 00:23:02.120 I wonder if now you can also like go to the customer and 00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:04.580 say, Hey look, here's the price. 00:23:05.110 --> 00:23:08.320 and in this price we're using this air quotes framework. 00:23:08.965 --> 00:23:11.995 We're using this pre already made framework. 00:23:11.995 --> 00:23:13.975 We've done it before in the past, and these are the 00:23:13.975 --> 00:23:15.115 things that we can do with it. 00:23:15.715 --> 00:23:19.555 But as soon as you try to like break that, either with scope creep or your 00:23:19.555 --> 00:23:22.615 like, cool new features that we can build for this, it has to be custom. 00:23:22.945 --> 00:23:27.685 And now custom is, you know, maybe where, where you were at before, but 00:23:27.685 --> 00:23:32.495 like 20%, 30% more, on the, on the line item because now you've realized, 00:23:32.795 --> 00:23:37.205 oh God, when we go this route, we're generally that 20 to 30% over. 00:23:37.535 --> 00:23:39.725 As we've been in the past, so I'm, I'm curious if you're gonna look at 00:23:39.725 --> 00:23:42.275 that as a new opportunity if you've not already started doing that. 00:23:42.785 --> 00:23:43.145 Ross: Yeah. 00:23:43.145 --> 00:23:43.355 Yeah. 00:23:43.355 --> 00:23:44.915 That is exactly our expectation. 00:23:44.915 --> 00:23:47.375 I mean, the type of projects that we take on, usually there is some 00:23:47.465 --> 00:23:51.845 custom development that's needed, like from a backend logic perspective, 00:23:51.905 --> 00:23:55.195 like we're working on a project now, that needs like a very particular 00:23:55.195 --> 00:23:57.515 membership management, workflow that. 00:23:57.860 --> 00:23:59.810 Like WooCommerce memberships isn't a good fit. 00:23:59.810 --> 00:24:01.910 Some of the other ones that we're looking at, like, it just has to 00:24:01.910 --> 00:24:03.170 work exactly how they need it. 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.410 So that's something we're gonna build custom and most of our 00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:08.540 projects, there's something like that, but it, it's gonna be, yeah, 00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:11.000 that much more narrow window and. 00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:14.690 Because we are still thinking we're gonna do like a block based page builder. 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:17.780 We do expect to have like custom blocks here and there. 00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:20.720 Like we'll still need to design something that doesn't fit in, like 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:23.540 the off shelf, you know, block based page builders that are out there. 00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:26.240 but you know, the real opportunity that we're, we're looking at as far 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.290 as opening up for us is, being able to sell, more marketing services. 00:24:30.965 --> 00:24:34.415 So in like 2018, we became more of a, like a full service digital 00:24:34.415 --> 00:24:37.265 marketing agency, which was like really transformational for the agency. 00:24:37.265 --> 00:24:40.355 'cause we're, we stopped chasing like the one big ticket projects 00:24:40.595 --> 00:24:41.915 and started chasing retainers. 00:24:42.245 --> 00:24:45.725 And as far as like scaling an agency, like predictable revenue 00:24:45.785 --> 00:24:48.035 is, you know, so important. 00:24:48.155 --> 00:24:53.195 so because we can spend less upfront on the website, then we can pitch them on, 00:24:53.525 --> 00:24:56.855 okay, let's spend some additional money on getting the right people to your 00:24:56.855 --> 00:24:58.955 site, driving leads, driving conversions. 00:24:58.955 --> 00:24:59.015 I. 00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:02.570 And our experience is once you get people into a retainer, 00:25:02.570 --> 00:25:03.770 they really see the value. 00:25:03.770 --> 00:25:06.650 And even if they only plan on doing it for a year to see how it goes, 00:25:06.650 --> 00:25:07.940 like they tend to stick around. 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.050 Matt: I am curious if you think, this is a great, segue 'cause this is what 00:25:12.050 --> 00:25:16.010 I was gonna kind of lead into next, is, I'm wondering if you're seeing the 00:25:16.010 --> 00:25:19.670 front end of a project and not the, not the literal and the technical term, 00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:24.140 like, like front end versus back end, but like the front, front house of a, 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.720 of accepting a project like scope it. 00:25:27.635 --> 00:25:35.075 Quote it, it's whatever, $20,000 and then it's, here's the three payment milestones. 00:25:35.075 --> 00:25:38.585 Like, I'm wondering if you're seeing that kind of like go away because 00:25:38.645 --> 00:25:42.945 you're experiencing efficiencies, with tools around WordPress. 00:25:43.125 --> 00:25:46.245 Maybe the clients are starting to understand like maybe clients now in 00:25:46.245 --> 00:25:50.745 the year 2025 have gone through a few iterations of their website, so they kind 00:25:50.745 --> 00:25:51.945 of know what they're looking for now. 00:25:51.945 --> 00:25:52.755 Like they're not. 00:25:53.020 --> 00:25:56.860 Dragging you down with a bunch of like discovery and scope stuff anymore. 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:01.120 So I'm wondering if you're seeing a world where, I mean, it's gonna 00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:05.950 be a startup fee and then a monthly retainer to build websites for 00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:07.780 folks or build solutions for folks. 00:26:08.670 --> 00:26:11.100 Ross: Yeah, you know, I'd, I'd like to see go in that direction. 00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:14.120 and there was a, a period of time where we're, we're really trying to push this 00:26:14.120 --> 00:26:17.630 idea of, HubSpot actually came up with it, but like a launchpad website, meaning 00:26:17.630 --> 00:26:22.670 like the minimum amount of work you need to do to get a website up, like a, a 00:26:22.670 --> 00:26:25.160 new version of website off, like, you don't necessarily have to rebuild the 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:28.400 whole thing and have it launched day one, but like, what's something better 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.400 we can get up quickly and then you move into a retainer to iterate on it. 00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.070 Just every month and kind of get it to where you want it to be. 00:26:34.580 --> 00:26:37.520 we as an agency struggle with that for that, the same 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:38.570 reasons that the scope seep. 00:26:38.570 --> 00:26:41.480 Like we had a hard time of like moderating ourselves and not 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.180 just delivering something that they're like, yeah, I'm good. 00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:45.860 I don't, we don't need to spend any more money on it. 00:26:46.340 --> 00:26:48.560 but I do think that's, that's a much better approach. 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.050 you know, what we've been doing lately that's. 00:26:51.605 --> 00:26:55.805 I, it kind of works to solve the, the same issue is discovery first projects 00:26:55.805 --> 00:26:59.645 where, you know, we're not trying to quote the entire project all at once because 00:26:59.645 --> 00:27:01.025 a lot of times you just guess wrong. 00:27:01.055 --> 00:27:02.285 Like, there's just not enough time. 00:27:02.285 --> 00:27:04.775 The typical sales process to get all the details right. 00:27:05.155 --> 00:27:08.095 so we're, we're kind of breaking off that first portion of, you know, the 00:27:08.095 --> 00:27:11.215 discovery, the strategy, and sometimes all the way through the design concepts. 00:27:11.455 --> 00:27:13.855 So we have a very clear picture of what we're building. 00:27:14.105 --> 00:27:16.565 we'll do functional specifications and that sort of thing, if there's 00:27:16.565 --> 00:27:18.005 any custom logic that's needed. 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:22.030 And then, then quote for the rest, which gives the client, 00:27:22.520 --> 00:27:23.930 typically a better solution. 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:25.820 you don't have to pad the price as much, you don't have as 00:27:25.820 --> 00:27:27.800 much issues as running over. 00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:30.500 and that's been working really well for both us and our clients. 00:27:31.235 --> 00:27:34.825 Matt: Yeah, it can't be, you know, understated enough that, the. 00:27:36.250 --> 00:27:42.020 Recurring revenue for an agency is critical for, you know, for 00:27:42.020 --> 00:27:43.160 sustainability of the business. 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:47.480 Again, going back to my three Cs, like, you, you should be thinking about that. 00:27:47.780 --> 00:27:52.160 you know, again, not just from like, I mean it is, but so not just like 00:27:52.220 --> 00:27:55.410 how much money can we make, or like, what else can I sell this customer? 00:27:55.410 --> 00:27:58.230 But it, it is for, you know, that. 00:27:59.025 --> 00:28:01.935 I've always said agency life is one paycheck away from bankruptcy. 00:28:01.935 --> 00:28:04.455 Somebody else had said that to me like, you know, years ago, you 00:28:04.455 --> 00:28:07.215 know, because depending on like how you've structured the agency, like 00:28:07.215 --> 00:28:10.845 if you don't have that, that runway, that's something that you know. 00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:12.870 December, right? 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:13.950 Holiday season. 00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:15.960 Nobody's saying yes to a contract. 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.000 No one's answering your emails. 00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:19.750 people all have time off. 00:28:19.750 --> 00:28:22.120 Like your own team wants time off, obviously. 00:28:22.360 --> 00:28:26.110 And it's like the worst month, like November, December, you're just like, 00:28:26.320 --> 00:28:28.330 you're operating at the halfway point. 00:28:28.330 --> 00:28:29.050 This is how I was. 00:28:29.050 --> 00:28:31.770 And, and maybe I'm wrong and maybe that's why, I couldn't sustain, 00:28:32.030 --> 00:28:33.745 you know, the size team that I had. 00:28:34.615 --> 00:28:37.375 You know, you're halfway through the summer, you're like, okay, how are we, 00:28:37.585 --> 00:28:40.315 what are we projecting for holiday season? 00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:45.280 For that downtime of like no projects and, and no revenue in, 00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:46.900 you start selling for the next year. 00:28:47.320 --> 00:28:50.770 So you start selling for, okay, as soon as we come back from holiday season, 00:28:50.770 --> 00:28:54.340 who's giving us, you know, the down payments on the new projects, you know, 00:28:54.340 --> 00:28:56.200 slated to go, you know, the next year. 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:59.450 And, you know, that was a super stressful cycle. 00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:02.200 I'm sure it still is a stressful cycle for people and that's 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:03.910 why that recurring revenue is. 00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:05.440 So important. 00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:11.800 And sometimes it can be like, ga gamified, I think is the, is is is a 00:29:11.800 --> 00:29:13.000 word that I, I might throw out there. 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:15.190 Like, everyone's like, you gotta get that recurring revenue. 00:29:15.190 --> 00:29:18.430 Buy my $97 a month course to tell you how to do it. 00:29:18.790 --> 00:29:20.650 And you're just like, okay, what am I doing? 00:29:20.650 --> 00:29:24.970 Like, but there's like a vital reason for it, you know? 00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:27.400 I dunno if that makes any sense or that was like a bit of a soapbox moment, 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.820 but that's like, it's a tough thing to like un make people understand. 00:29:31.210 --> 00:29:31.390 Ross: yeah. 00:29:31.390 --> 00:29:31.900 Absolutely. 00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:33.730 I, I think you're really gonna struggle. 00:29:33.730 --> 00:29:36.850 It's to scale your agency and have a team on payroll. 00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:40.000 if you're, if you don't have recurring revenue for all the reasons 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.020 that you say, like you're just. 00:29:41.365 --> 00:29:43.765 You know, chasing the next big project, hope that it comes 00:29:43.765 --> 00:29:44.875 in and that you have enough. 00:29:45.325 --> 00:29:49.165 And if, if one of 'em doesn't work out, then you're in trouble. 00:29:49.375 --> 00:29:52.915 and I mean, I, you should have, you know, some reserves, like, I think 00:29:52.915 --> 00:29:56.905 there's some estimates of like three to six months of runway and like 00:29:56.905 --> 00:29:58.075 a line of credit's a good idea. 00:29:58.075 --> 00:30:00.025 But those are all things you don't want to have to tap into. 00:30:00.565 --> 00:30:03.835 So really focusing on that reoccurring revenue, even if it means, you 00:30:03.835 --> 00:30:06.415 know, having a bit of a loss in the beginning to get them into that 00:30:06.415 --> 00:30:08.155 reoccurring, you know, retainer. 00:30:08.155 --> 00:30:09.055 I think that's worth it. 00:30:09.505 --> 00:30:11.995 and I guess last thing I'll say on that is, you know, a lot of times when 00:30:11.995 --> 00:30:14.455 people, especially in the WordPress space talk about reoccurring revenue, 00:30:14.455 --> 00:30:16.135 they, they say like, oh, sell site care. 00:30:16.675 --> 00:30:19.525 And like, you know, maintenance and, and backups and updates, which like, 00:30:19.525 --> 00:30:21.745 I think is great, like start there. 00:30:22.165 --> 00:30:26.155 But if you look at the prices of those, like maybe you might charge a couple 00:30:26.155 --> 00:30:29.545 hundred dollars and that's maybe on the high end, like how many clients do you 00:30:29.545 --> 00:30:33.205 have to get at that price point to hire like one person to manage it for you. 00:30:33.205 --> 00:30:33.775 It's a lot. 00:30:34.255 --> 00:30:38.185 So it need to be thinking about higher value services that clients are 00:30:38.185 --> 00:30:40.795 gonna pay and get ROI on every month. 00:30:42.510 --> 00:30:44.490 Matt: that's a fantastic, yeah, that's a fantastic point. 00:30:44.490 --> 00:30:47.250 And I, and I think that's like what I was getting at is a lot of people will 00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:50.130 just be, will throw that around, right? 00:30:50.130 --> 00:30:51.870 And it's just like, oh, it's oh so easy. 00:30:51.870 --> 00:30:56.730 And it's like, yes, and, and, and yes, it is, you know, a good first step, 00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:58.620 but you should, you know, trust me 00:30:59.325 --> 00:30:59.625 Ross: right. 00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:01.890 Matt: as you're scaling it, you want to think, you know, bigger, 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:04.680 Actually leads me to my next question, sort of in the back half of this 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:09.420 conversation is like, how, how has finding customers changed, if at all? 00:31:09.600 --> 00:31:14.700 I assume referrals still top of the food chain for, for, for agency life 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:18.870 as it is with like a lot of things in, in, in the real world referrals. 00:31:18.870 --> 00:31:23.070 But how have you adjusted to find new customers and like 00:31:23.100 --> 00:31:24.450 even reposition yourself? 00:31:25.605 --> 00:31:25.935 Ross: Yeah. 00:31:25.935 --> 00:31:29.205 I mean, finding customer acquisition I think is always a challenge with an 00:31:29.205 --> 00:31:32.835 agency because there's just so many agencies out there, and I think it's, 00:31:32.895 --> 00:31:38.535 it's gotten harder over the years, like we did a whole lot of local business like. 00:31:39.315 --> 00:31:40.365 Outside of referrals. 00:31:40.365 --> 00:31:44.415 A lot of our business was local for a long time, basically up until Covid. 00:31:45.015 --> 00:31:48.315 And then it seemed like once Covid hit and everyone went virtual, there 00:31:48.315 --> 00:31:51.015 was kind of this universal shift in thinking where it's like, we don't need 00:31:51.015 --> 00:31:54.255 to work local anymore because we're not even gonna meet you in person. 00:31:54.975 --> 00:31:56.745 And it seemed like that hasn't really changed much. 00:31:57.375 --> 00:32:00.435 You know, so for us, you know, we've been fortunate that our 00:32:00.435 --> 00:32:02.745 referral network is really strong. 00:32:02.805 --> 00:32:05.895 strategic partnerships have always been really huge for us. 00:32:05.955 --> 00:32:11.375 So finding other agencies or services, that complement yours and referring work 00:32:11.375 --> 00:32:14.855 back and forth, that's a good way to get your foot in the door with a lot of work. 00:32:15.365 --> 00:32:17.795 and then just having a really strong network in general. 00:32:17.915 --> 00:32:20.585 Which might be easier or harder these days, but like the more people 00:32:20.585 --> 00:32:23.465 you know virtually or in person, the, the more likely they are 00:32:23.465 --> 00:32:24.725 to know somebody who needs help. 00:32:25.205 --> 00:32:30.725 And so we've gotten a ton of work just sustained based on people I've met like 00:32:30.725 --> 00:32:33.815 10 years ago, 15 years ago, that are still connected with me on LinkedIn. 00:32:33.815 --> 00:32:35.615 And they see me post now and again. 00:32:36.035 --> 00:32:38.375 So they have a project come up and they think of us. 00:32:39.275 --> 00:32:42.545 the other way you can go about it in, in talking to other agency 00:32:42.545 --> 00:32:44.765 owners is really just focus on. 00:32:45.250 --> 00:32:50.290 a lot of outbound sales, like, you know, we're more waiting for 00:32:50.290 --> 00:32:51.850 clients to reach out and come to us. 00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:54.100 You know, we do some proactive marketing, but, you know, 00:32:54.100 --> 00:32:55.390 we're not doing cold outreach. 00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:57.750 We're not doing a lot of, trying to connect with people 00:32:57.750 --> 00:32:58.770 and discuss their issues. 00:32:58.770 --> 00:33:00.750 It's more like waiting for people to raise their hands. 00:33:01.159 --> 00:33:04.609 but if that's not working, I think you really have to start hustling and 00:33:05.479 --> 00:33:08.719 getting in contact with people and asking for referrals and all that. 00:33:08.719 --> 00:33:08.959 Mm-hmm. 00:33:09.394 --> 00:33:13.384 Matt: Yeah, I think, and we'll transition to talking about AI now, but I think 00:33:13.384 --> 00:33:16.094 that, you know, ev there's obviously many schools have thought of this. 00:33:16.094 --> 00:33:17.924 It's like, it's gonna put us out of business, you know, 00:33:17.924 --> 00:33:18.914 everyone's gonna gonna do it. 00:33:18.914 --> 00:33:20.894 It's launch their own websites, things like that. 00:33:21.284 --> 00:33:23.444 I'm trying to look at it as a way to. 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.549 To find efficiencies first and foremost. 00:33:26.919 --> 00:33:28.899 because, you know, you can't, you can barely predict it out 00:33:28.899 --> 00:33:30.579 one year, let alone five years. 00:33:30.579 --> 00:33:33.279 So very difficult to, to make those adjustments. 00:33:33.689 --> 00:33:36.299 you know, in your own business today, based on like a one year to five 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:37.619 year predict prediction with ai. 00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:41.099 But what I know now is like there are some efficiencies to be had. 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:44.039 Are you leveraging those efficiencies in the business? 00:33:44.129 --> 00:33:46.889 Most importantly, have you heard from your clients at all saying, 00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:50.309 Hey, can we incorporate ai or, here's what I'm doing with ai. 00:33:50.729 --> 00:33:51.989 If at all in in your business. 00:33:52.904 --> 00:33:54.974 Ross: Yeah, we're definitely incorporating it in our business. 00:33:55.034 --> 00:33:58.754 for efficiencies, like you said, like where we just started using a code 00:33:58.754 --> 00:34:00.834 editor that has ai, built into it. 00:34:01.114 --> 00:34:04.454 certainly all the marketing activities that we do, we'll do a lot of AI to 00:34:04.454 --> 00:34:07.034 help speed that up like research and. 00:34:07.664 --> 00:34:09.464 Idea generation, that sort of thing. 00:34:10.424 --> 00:34:13.844 and, and yeah, I think a good number of our clients use AI also. 00:34:13.844 --> 00:34:17.754 I mean, we typically work with marketing departments, so like, our client is like 00:34:17.754 --> 00:34:22.194 a marketing manager or a marketing leader, and they're pretty clued into AI as well. 00:34:22.194 --> 00:34:24.954 So they're using it kind of in similar ways that we are. 00:34:25.734 --> 00:34:29.034 You know, as far as, you know, where we are now, where we might go, like 00:34:29.184 --> 00:34:34.794 the way I see it in the next maybe year or so is, like you said, there's 00:34:34.794 --> 00:34:36.714 a lot of efficiencies to be gained. 00:34:36.814 --> 00:34:40.204 basically the people who figure out how to, how to leverage AI the best, 00:34:40.324 --> 00:34:41.884 are gonna benefit the most from it. 00:34:42.184 --> 00:34:44.254 Like, I don't see it replacing anybody quite yet. 00:34:44.794 --> 00:34:46.984 where it goes long term, I'm not exactly sure. 00:34:47.014 --> 00:34:49.054 'cause like in theory, it's gonna get to a point where it can. 00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:53.839 Build design, write all the copy a website for you, you 00:34:53.839 --> 00:34:54.949 know, pretty much do everything. 00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:57.979 But if it's doing that for everybody, then what, what makes the difference 00:34:57.979 --> 00:35:01.609 between website A and B and that's, that's not exactly Sure. 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:03.069 how that shakes out. 00:35:03.069 --> 00:35:07.179 It seems like there still would need to be some humans in there working with it 00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:09.189 to make sure that it's, it's different. 00:35:10.089 --> 00:35:13.779 Matt: Yeah, I think, this is just my prediction, but like I know at 00:35:13.779 --> 00:35:19.254 least in what I'll call my, my side hustle, the here at the WP Minute 00:35:19.254 --> 00:35:20.709 and just like thinking as like a. 00:35:22.194 --> 00:35:25.314 Content publisher, somebody who's never done any, like, I've 00:35:25.314 --> 00:35:27.414 never done any content for SEO. 00:35:27.954 --> 00:35:30.024 Like there's never been an SEO strategy. 00:35:30.294 --> 00:35:32.604 I've never been like, you know how I'll get more readers to 00:35:32.604 --> 00:35:33.954 my website into my newsletter. 00:35:33.954 --> 00:35:38.064 I will write 17 most popular, you know, slider plugins for WordPress. 00:35:38.184 --> 00:35:43.524 And listen, I say that also understanding that I have friends who have made a 00:35:43.524 --> 00:35:45.444 lot of money doing that kind of thing. 00:35:45.834 --> 00:35:47.574 but as a publisher in this day and age, like. 00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:51.129 You can't have, you can't just have a podcast. 00:35:51.129 --> 00:35:52.659 You can't just have a YouTube channel anymore. 00:35:52.929 --> 00:35:55.779 You have to have, it has to be omnichannel, it has to be, 00:35:55.899 --> 00:35:58.389 social, it has to be a podcast. 00:35:58.389 --> 00:36:00.399 It has to be YouTube, it has to be the newsletter. 00:36:00.399 --> 00:36:03.819 It has to be the blog, it has to be community around that. 00:36:04.209 --> 00:36:05.529 And it has to be like events. 00:36:05.529 --> 00:36:09.009 It's like seven things now I think in order to survive. 00:36:09.439 --> 00:36:13.699 and I think like on the agency side, when you start to like 00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:15.199 democratize a lot of this stuff. 00:36:15.934 --> 00:36:19.534 Say like, oh, now I can just do this with AI and it'll solve this pain point for me. 00:36:20.584 --> 00:36:25.954 The agency owner has to think of like, how can I bring as much human 00:36:25.954 --> 00:36:27.634 into this solution as possible? 00:36:27.994 --> 00:36:31.084 And that's not even just, I think in the, like the short term, it 00:36:31.084 --> 00:36:34.504 might just be like, how do I relate with this customer, more human? 00:36:34.504 --> 00:36:37.624 And how do I do like more white glove approach for this customer? 00:36:37.834 --> 00:36:41.914 But like, do you also live in your customer's world like. 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:45.529 You might have to get, not, not you specifically, but agency owners might 00:36:45.529 --> 00:36:51.289 have to get much more, vertical with like, where do you, where do the 00:36:51.289 --> 00:36:55.399 events that your customers go to, how can you live and consume that life 00:36:55.399 --> 00:36:58.819 as much as they do in order for you to be able to sell them a website now 00:36:59.509 --> 00:37:01.099 or get them to like sell a contract? 00:37:01.129 --> 00:37:05.929 I mean, you could argue that you kind of have to do that today ish, but you 00:37:05.929 --> 00:37:10.549 almost have to be like an, like an influencer in their space just to get. 00:37:10.834 --> 00:37:15.184 Just to get the job in the future, to stand out from, you know, the row of 00:37:15.184 --> 00:37:18.904 people who are just doing this stuff, just like with AI and pumping it all out. 00:37:19.399 --> 00:37:19.789 Ross: Right. 00:37:20.314 --> 00:37:22.894 Matt: that's a crazy prediction, but, you know, it could be the 00:37:22.894 --> 00:37:24.964 unscalable thing is what's gonna work 00:37:25.609 --> 00:37:25.819 Ross: Yeah. 00:37:25.834 --> 00:37:26.764 Matt: in the, in the long run. 00:37:26.764 --> 00:37:26.794 I. 00:37:27.304 --> 00:37:28.444 Ross: Yeah, I can certainly see that. 00:37:28.444 --> 00:37:30.784 I mean, like right now we're doing, we do a lot of work and we've 00:37:30.784 --> 00:37:31.714 worked with 'em for a long time. 00:37:31.714 --> 00:37:35.554 A company that does protein mass spectrometry, I think is how you 00:37:35.554 --> 00:37:39.044 pronounce it, which, like I have a very high level understanding of what it is. 00:37:39.044 --> 00:37:40.754 It's like analyzing proteins for research. 00:37:41.054 --> 00:37:43.034 But I couldn't tell you much beyond that. 00:37:43.154 --> 00:37:44.024 And right now it works. 00:37:44.024 --> 00:37:44.444 It's fine. 00:37:44.444 --> 00:37:47.234 You know, like we can do enough where we can, you know, help 00:37:47.234 --> 00:37:48.134 them grow their business. 00:37:48.434 --> 00:37:51.134 But I could see a place in the future where they're only gonna want to talk 00:37:51.134 --> 00:37:54.784 to somebody who really understands that deeply, attends the same events, you 00:37:54.784 --> 00:37:57.214 know, knows how to talk to scientists the same way, that sort of thing. 00:37:57.904 --> 00:38:00.334 so I could certainly see it, it going in that direction. 00:38:00.829 --> 00:38:01.099 Matt: Yeah. 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:03.649 coding with ai, yes or no? 00:38:03.649 --> 00:38:07.999 Something that you're trusting, not trusting, experimenting with. 00:38:08.029 --> 00:38:09.109 Where do you land on that? 00:38:09.874 --> 00:38:11.494 Ross: Yeah, we're, we're actively experimenting. 00:38:11.494 --> 00:38:13.954 I mean, certainly there's some small, things we've had 00:38:14.224 --> 00:38:16.264 pretty much just written by ai. 00:38:16.534 --> 00:38:20.914 I mean, obviously you have to do testing and, and it's in my experience at, 00:38:20.914 --> 00:38:23.344 at this point, like you have to know. 00:38:24.814 --> 00:38:27.274 Coding, like what you're coding into a certain point. 00:38:27.364 --> 00:38:30.064 Even just to get it to produce like the code that works. 00:38:30.164 --> 00:38:32.744 like I was having it write some JavaScript for like a HubSpot 00:38:32.744 --> 00:38:37.814 landing page and you know it, even having it write that JavaScript I. 00:38:38.189 --> 00:38:41.399 Took a fair amount of work in telling it what wasn't working and what 00:38:41.399 --> 00:38:43.619 to look at and like those details. 00:38:43.919 --> 00:38:45.149 So I don't think it's quite there yet. 00:38:45.209 --> 00:38:47.259 But again, it's like, it's a force multiplier. 00:38:47.289 --> 00:38:50.229 Like the places we are using it, it's speeding things up quite a bit 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:53.989 and it seems like the quality of the code is only getting better. 00:38:54.789 --> 00:38:55.059 Matt: Yeah. 00:38:55.579 --> 00:38:57.259 Ross: And like you can think about the future. 00:38:57.289 --> 00:39:01.609 I mean, this is what kind of, what excites me about it is like the AI at some point. 00:39:02.149 --> 00:39:06.259 If it doesn't already, we will know and understand every single line of code 00:39:06.259 --> 00:39:08.059 that's in something like WordPress. 00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.269 So its ability to write the most efficient code is gonna far 00:39:11.269 --> 00:39:12.859 surpass anything that we can do. 00:39:13.609 --> 00:39:13.969 Matt: Yeah. 00:39:14.509 --> 00:39:17.239 The, yes. 00:39:17.304 --> 00:39:20.509 I, I, I agree that, that we're gonna get to, to that point. 00:39:21.109 --> 00:39:22.249 I have a little bit of doubt. 00:39:22.549 --> 00:39:25.819 On how efficient we think it's going to be based on like the 00:39:25.819 --> 00:39:27.169 pace that we've seen improvement. 00:39:27.169 --> 00:39:29.369 Like I think we went from like, I don't know. 00:39:29.369 --> 00:39:32.309 And listen, I'm not a, some kind of like AI absolutist or some, 00:39:32.429 --> 00:39:36.719 you know, somebody who pretends to have like cover the space deeply. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.539 but certainly have been like really pushing myself into it 00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:40.739 for the last six to eight months. 00:39:41.309 --> 00:39:46.079 Like the rapid de de development from like Chachi Petite version one. 00:39:46.604 --> 00:39:47.714 To where we are today. 00:39:47.954 --> 00:39:49.874 Like it went pretty fast. 00:39:49.874 --> 00:39:52.094 Like one to two was like mind blowing. 00:39:52.094 --> 00:39:53.774 Two to three was mind blowing. 00:39:53.774 --> 00:39:57.884 Three to four was, it was mind blowing, but maybe just not as much. 00:39:58.064 --> 00:40:00.884 And now it's starting like to shrink, it's the iPhone effect, right? 00:40:01.214 --> 00:40:04.574 iPhone ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. 00:40:04.574 --> 00:40:06.854 You're like, you're looking at like iterative improvements, 00:40:07.124 --> 00:40:08.054 you know, year after year. 00:40:08.054 --> 00:40:09.854 And if you're just looking at it in a yearly thing, you're 00:40:09.854 --> 00:40:11.114 like, eh, not much changed. 00:40:11.354 --> 00:40:13.934 But if you looked at it in like a four year window, you're like, wow. 00:40:13.964 --> 00:40:14.504 There was like. 00:40:15.149 --> 00:40:17.309 A big gap of, of improvements. 00:40:17.789 --> 00:40:20.309 Because I'll tell you, man, I've been building, just as an aside, 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:23.849 I've been building a lot of things with ai, but I've been messing around 00:40:23.849 --> 00:40:27.259 with building my own podcast player, you know, web-based podcast player. 00:40:27.709 --> 00:40:32.869 And, it will just destroy code in the matter of seconds. 00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:36.829 Like I'm, I'm using Cursor the other day and like it gets to this point of 00:40:36.949 --> 00:40:42.439 complexity, and maybe this is where now I have to be a better like cursor developer. 00:40:43.009 --> 00:40:45.799 Which is weird, like you have to be like a better cursor slash 00:40:45.799 --> 00:40:48.259 prompter to improve in these areas. 00:40:48.259 --> 00:40:51.509 If you don't know, like the code, where you almost start thinking, maybe 00:40:51.509 --> 00:40:52.559 I should just learn the code, man, 00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:53.949 Ross: Right. 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:56.789 Matt: May, maybe I should just learn the code and, I wouldn't have 00:40:56.789 --> 00:40:58.349 to do what I'm doing over here. 00:40:58.529 --> 00:41:01.469 But, you know, I won't bore you with like the complexities. 00:41:01.469 --> 00:41:06.319 But, in order to access, the podcast, the Apple Podcast, API 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.529 for core's policies, you must. 00:41:09.889 --> 00:41:13.039 Have these on, I'm using CloudFlare workers, right? 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:17.179 To make the API API request sanitize the API request and 00:41:17.179 --> 00:41:18.769 send it back to the React app. 00:41:19.219 --> 00:41:19.489 Okay. 00:41:19.499 --> 00:41:19.919 Ross: Mm-hmm. 00:41:20.539 --> 00:41:24.499 Matt: And you'll just be like, like something won't work. 00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:28.099 And I will say, like, I just had this the other day where suddenly like thumbnails 00:41:28.099 --> 00:41:30.229 weren't loading for like, cores, errors. 00:41:30.409 --> 00:41:33.589 CORS for those of you have never heard of that before. 00:41:35.029 --> 00:41:36.649 And so I'm like, Hey, we gotta debug this. 00:41:36.779 --> 00:41:37.739 the images aren't loading. 00:41:38.174 --> 00:41:40.774 And, so I says, okay, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna debug this 00:41:41.284 --> 00:41:42.484 in your CloudFlare worker. 00:41:42.784 --> 00:41:45.364 And if you're, if you've used cursor before, it'll show you. 00:41:45.934 --> 00:41:49.714 The lines of code is changing per request as it's like going through 00:41:49.714 --> 00:41:51.364 as the AI agent is going through. 00:41:51.844 --> 00:41:56.794 And all of a sudden I see my CloudFlare worker file say minus 600, right? 00:41:56.794 --> 00:41:59.734 Which is minus 600 lines of code, right? 00:42:00.154 --> 00:42:02.644 And then it says like, and then it says plus two. 00:42:02.884 --> 00:42:03.724 And I was like, whoa, whoa. 00:42:03.724 --> 00:42:06.874 I have to like hit the stop button and be like, and then 00:42:06.874 --> 00:42:08.524 like literally prompt it and say. 00:42:09.379 --> 00:42:11.629 What are you doing to the worker file? 00:42:11.629 --> 00:42:14.209 You have removed everything from the worker file. 00:42:14.209 --> 00:42:15.199 You cannot do that. 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:18.409 I need you to debug just the images, and then it just comes back and 00:42:18.409 --> 00:42:19.879 it says, oh yeah, you're right. 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:22.829 I, I was just testing it for like, literally like it 00:42:22.829 --> 00:42:23.729 says, oh yeah, you're right. 00:42:23.729 --> 00:42:25.319 I was just testing it for the images. 00:42:25.569 --> 00:42:26.679 let's add the code back. 00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:28.539 And it's just like, what the hell were you doing? 00:42:29.529 --> 00:42:33.939 In what world was it right to remove all of that functionality in the. 00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:38.309 In just to get this image thing right, just figure out the image thing. 00:42:38.309 --> 00:42:39.689 Don't destroy everything else. 00:42:40.089 --> 00:42:43.629 which I guess, you know, there are ways to do this in Cursor that says 00:42:43.629 --> 00:42:46.869 like, don't make any like impactful changes, but then what does that do? 00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:49.989 Does it add like a ton of overhead to your code that you don't know about? 00:42:49.989 --> 00:42:54.249 So it's a long rant of saying like, yeah, these things are pretty cool. 00:42:54.279 --> 00:42:57.639 I can make some pretty cool things really quickly, but then a lot of 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:02.539 this stuff breaks down, once you get to a certain size of AI project. 00:43:03.014 --> 00:43:05.594 Ross: Yeah, I mean that's been my exact experience as well, like, 00:43:05.594 --> 00:43:06.435 and that's why I was saying it. 00:43:06.789 --> 00:43:10.124 You still kind of have to know what it's doing to point it in the right 00:43:10.124 --> 00:43:11.624 direction and give it the right prompts. 00:43:11.624 --> 00:43:13.154 Because I've experienced the exact same thing. 00:43:13.154 --> 00:43:16.964 Like one small thing isn't working, I tell 'em it's not working and it 00:43:16.994 --> 00:43:19.424 completely changes everything and breaks like three other things. 00:43:19.424 --> 00:43:20.129 I'm like, no, no, no, no. 00:43:20.134 --> 00:43:23.774 Like here's the issue and the more descriptive I can be about the issue 00:43:23.774 --> 00:43:25.964 and kind of point it in the right direction, the more effective it is. 00:43:26.694 --> 00:43:32.574 but yeah, using it right now to completely build an app without some technical 00:43:32.574 --> 00:43:35.604 knowledge of the programming language and what needs to be done, I think would. 00:43:35.874 --> 00:43:37.494 It, you're really gonna struggle. 00:43:37.494 --> 00:43:39.234 I don't know how effective that's gonna be. 00:43:40.594 --> 00:43:40.794 Matt: Yeah. 00:43:41.529 --> 00:43:45.369 One last thing about the AI stuff and we'll, we'll, wrap up this conversation 00:43:45.369 --> 00:43:48.279 about starting and surviving in an agency world and why would you do it? 00:43:49.209 --> 00:43:52.599 ha has a, I was talking to an agency owner the other day, a really well known 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:55.599 agency owner, and he was, look, and, you know, he made a remark and said, I 00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.669 could replace my entire marketing team with some of the stuff that AI is doing. 00:44:01.174 --> 00:44:05.684 Today, true or false, do you think you can just replace a whole marketing team 00:44:05.714 --> 00:44:11.024 and at least for marketing a WordPress agency, do you see any, efficiencies or 00:44:11.024 --> 00:44:16.044 anything to be gained by leveraging AI to help us, get found for our clients? 00:44:17.069 --> 00:44:17.639 Ross: Yeah. 00:44:17.729 --> 00:44:20.250 Well, I, I, I'm skeptical that you could. 00:44:21.074 --> 00:44:26.264 Remove an entire team at this stage and still produce quality content. 00:44:26.634 --> 00:44:29.934 I think we're, we're still at a point with like a lot of the content or 00:44:29.934 --> 00:44:32.964 like what's being put out from AI where it's, it's pretty noticeable. 00:44:33.474 --> 00:44:36.384 like I can really tell if something's wr been written by chat GBT 00:44:36.384 --> 00:44:37.704 unless it's been like rewritten. 00:44:38.074 --> 00:44:41.284 but certainly I could see it pre preventing you from 00:44:41.284 --> 00:44:42.604 having to hire people like. 00:44:43.489 --> 00:44:45.864 You could probably get more done with fewer people at, 00:44:46.069 --> 00:44:47.119 at least from my experience. 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:48.259 I mean, I could be completely wrong. 00:44:48.259 --> 00:44:50.749 They, they might have found some better way to use it than me. 00:44:51.029 --> 00:44:53.159 but from my experience, yeah, I, I think it, it's a good, 00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:55.379 again, a force multiplier, like you can get a lot more done. 00:44:56.169 --> 00:44:56.229 I. 00:44:56.514 --> 00:44:59.634 And kind of touching on one of the things you were talking about earlier 00:44:59.634 --> 00:45:03.384 about like how many channels you have to really be engaged in these days. 00:45:03.384 --> 00:45:07.344 I think that's a really good use case for AI and marketing. 00:45:07.404 --> 00:45:09.804 I forget who coined the term, but somebody said that SEO is no 00:45:09.804 --> 00:45:11.154 longer search engine optimization. 00:45:11.154 --> 00:45:13.284 It's search everything everywhere. 00:45:13.284 --> 00:45:14.004 Optimization. 00:45:14.274 --> 00:45:16.134 Like you kind of need to be at work 'cause people are looking 00:45:16.134 --> 00:45:17.094 for information everywhere. 00:45:17.124 --> 00:45:21.324 And I think that's one of the places that AI is really, really effective. 00:45:21.324 --> 00:45:24.744 Like you can create one original piece of content with the assistance of ai. 00:45:24.804 --> 00:45:27.624 Like as long as it's not creating it, you know, completely for you. 00:45:28.074 --> 00:45:31.284 And then it's really good about turning that into other pieces of content. 00:45:31.434 --> 00:45:35.514 like if you haven't seen the, the recent, SOAR enhancements from OpenAI. 00:45:35.844 --> 00:45:38.664 I mean, its ability to create like an infographic is incredible. 00:45:38.964 --> 00:45:43.194 So like, just feeding it like a prompt based on your content and it producing 00:45:43.194 --> 00:45:47.174 infographic that you can put on, you know, social is, a really good use case for it. 00:45:47.879 --> 00:45:48.569 Matt: Yeah, yeah. 00:45:49.229 --> 00:45:50.939 Ross Johnson, thanks for hanging out today. 00:45:50.989 --> 00:45:52.429 where can folks go to say thanks? 00:45:52.429 --> 00:45:54.169 Where can they find you on the web? 00:45:55.274 --> 00:45:57.284 Ross: again, I think just, our website's a good spot. 00:45:57.284 --> 00:45:57.944 3.7 00:45:57.944 --> 00:45:58.544 designs do co. 00:45:59.214 --> 00:46:03.444 I'm not on X or blue sky these days, as much, but you can find me at LinkedIn. 00:46:03.594 --> 00:46:05.694 Happy to connect with any other WordPress professionals. 00:46:05.694 --> 00:46:11.094 Just search for Ross Johnson and find the, the one Ross Johnson that works for 3.7 00:46:11.094 --> 00:46:11.454 designs. 00:46:12.544 --> 00:46:16.594 Matt: if you 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00:46:48.804 --> 00:46:49.494 Thanks for watching. 00:46:49.494 --> 00:46:50.124 Thanks for listening. 00:46:50.154 --> 00:46:52.374 We'll see you in the next episode.