WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299
Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610
Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760
things.

00:00:18.827 --> 00:00:20.787
Sam: Hello, and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

00:00:20.797 --> 00:00:22.087
My name is Sam Ellis.

00:00:22.417 --> 00:00:22.777
I'm Joe Loh.

00:00:23.287 --> 00:00:24.447
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

00:00:25.037 --> 00:00:27.357
Joe: Today on the show, an Ali, uh, topic.

00:00:27.707 --> 00:00:28.457
Over to you, Ali.

00:00:28.777 --> 00:00:29.617
Ali: Oh, straight in.

00:00:30.307 --> 00:00:32.817
Sam: Well, I thought you were
going to preface it a tiny bit.

00:00:32.997 --> 00:00:37.817
Um, well also the little, uh, three
neurodivergent, people mantra,

00:00:37.887 --> 00:00:40.847
um, we're grappling with one of
the 10, 000 things at a time.

00:00:41.342 --> 00:00:46.212
Uh, through a lens of
subjective experience and, and

00:00:46.292 --> 00:00:48.252
multiple diagnoses between us.

00:00:48.732 --> 00:00:52.142
Um, I thought this was a fun one.

00:00:52.182 --> 00:00:55.152
Ali and I are both passionate
about Nigella Lawson and

00:00:55.152 --> 00:00:56.432
Robbie Williams, it turns out.

00:00:56.482 --> 00:01:01.492
And the recent documentary about Robbie
has been very revealing and provocative

00:01:01.492 --> 00:01:02.802
of conversation with lots of people.

00:01:03.012 --> 00:01:05.712
Ali: I was watching it because
who wouldn't want to watch Robbie.

00:01:06.117 --> 00:01:08.067
He's underpants talk about
himself for four hours.

00:01:08.077 --> 00:01:08.757
He's magnetic.

00:01:08.757 --> 00:01:09.437
It's amazing.

00:01:09.557 --> 00:01:09.777
Yeah.

00:01:09.807 --> 00:01:10.457
Um, yeah.

00:01:10.497 --> 00:01:11.867
And it's definitely worth the watch.

00:01:12.277 --> 00:01:12.737
Sam: He's a born entertainer.

00:01:13.127 --> 00:01:14.107
Ali: He really is.

00:01:14.137 --> 00:01:15.067
Sam: Like, like our Nige.

00:01:15.817 --> 00:01:16.057
Yeah.

00:01:16.057 --> 00:01:16.727
It's, I don't know.

00:01:17.457 --> 00:01:18.647
There's something about him.

00:01:18.717 --> 00:01:19.517
Joe: culturally at all.

00:01:20.107 --> 00:01:20.997
I have no idea who he is.

00:01:21.077 --> 00:01:22.887
Sam: Irrelevant figure on
Joe's cultural landscape.

00:01:22.887 --> 00:01:26.637
Joe: I honestly cannot place,
he's a boy band guy, right?

00:01:27.077 --> 00:01:27.387
Yeah.

00:01:27.427 --> 00:01:27.617
Sam: Yeah.

00:01:27.987 --> 00:01:28.677
That's all he is.

00:01:29.042 --> 00:01:29.342
Ali,

00:01:29.342 --> 00:01:33.142
Joe: I happily will ignore whoever
he is for the rest of my life,

00:01:33.842 --> 00:01:34.612
Sam: you're missing out bro.

00:01:34.932 --> 00:01:35.782
Ali: You really are.

00:01:36.132 --> 00:01:39.352
Anyway, I was going to say,
he was the love of my life

00:01:39.352 --> 00:01:41.322
for many, many years, but um,

00:01:41.382 --> 00:01:42.182
Sam: not the worst choice.

00:01:42.362 --> 00:01:42.672
Ali: Yeah.

00:01:42.672 --> 00:01:47.052
No, it's actually emblematic of, I was
talking to a girlfriend about this.

00:01:47.677 --> 00:01:52.227
About the kind of man that I've always
been attracted to, there's a guy in the

00:01:52.227 --> 00:01:54.447
pub, he's probably pulled his pants down.

00:01:54.497 --> 00:01:55.897
He's about to get kicked out.

00:01:56.327 --> 00:01:57.907
That would be the one that I'd go after.

00:01:57.907 --> 00:01:59.037
Like, that's the one for me.

00:01:59.307 --> 00:02:04.857
And I said, and like, the loose unit and
watching Robbie and him being emblematic

00:02:04.867 --> 00:02:08.447
of all the boyfriends I've ever had,
kind of have a thing for dickheads.

00:02:08.507 --> 00:02:10.617
Like someone who's like, and I
don't say that in a mean way.

00:02:11.312 --> 00:02:14.282
Someone who's, yeah, they've got all
these, they don't take themselves

00:02:14.342 --> 00:02:16.672
too seriously, but there's this love.

00:02:16.672 --> 00:02:20.502
Joe: So basically the worst people
on dating apps, the ones who say,

00:02:20.502 --> 00:02:22.552
I don't take things too seriously.

00:02:22.902 --> 00:02:23.362
But they're willing to have.

00:02:23.362 --> 00:02:25.342
Yeah, have you looked at
the fucking world lately?

00:02:25.382 --> 00:02:28.052
Cause it's going to come and take
you pretty fucking seriously.

00:02:28.882 --> 00:02:30.002
So maybe pay attention, you fuck.

00:02:30.182 --> 00:02:31.702
Fucking airhead, coming in hot.

00:02:31.702 --> 00:02:36.222
Ali: Someone who's happy to have
a joke at their own expense.

00:02:36.242 --> 00:02:36.992
Yeah, agreed.

00:02:37.042 --> 00:02:37.782
That's what it is.

00:02:37.902 --> 00:02:38.972
Sam: I think that's the distinction.

00:02:39.002 --> 00:02:44.202
Ali: But the point is, someone who's
very publicly had a mental breakdown.

00:02:44.222 --> 00:02:45.402
Joe: You are, or Robbie?

00:02:45.402 --> 00:02:45.872
Robbie.

00:02:45.962 --> 00:02:48.652
Sam: Well, I mean, yours was
somewhat public, I guess.

00:02:48.702 --> 00:02:50.392
Ali: Yeah, well, to the people around me.

00:02:50.392 --> 00:02:51.352
Yeah, yeah, that's it.

00:02:51.512 --> 00:02:52.652
But, but watching this...

00:02:54.017 --> 00:02:59.687
This documentary and seeing
him to me still seemed like

00:02:59.767 --> 00:03:01.717
very much like an open wound.

00:03:01.737 --> 00:03:04.527
Like there was still stuff
that you could see had been...

00:03:04.592 --> 00:03:08.282
was fundamentally broken
at one point in his life.

00:03:08.282 --> 00:03:11.382
There was a huge moment where, you
know, it's panic attack and it just,

00:03:11.392 --> 00:03:15.522
it changed the course of things
for a really, really long time.

00:03:15.522 --> 00:03:17.962
And I feel like even still now
watching it, even though it's

00:03:17.962 --> 00:03:20.472
sort of, you know, it's got a,
he's still had a wildly successful

00:03:20.472 --> 00:03:21.452
career and all that sort of stuff.

00:03:21.742 --> 00:03:25.152
There's still something, you know, he
was sort of talking about, you know,

00:03:25.212 --> 00:03:28.652
he spends most of his time in bed when
he's not on stage and things like that.

00:03:28.662 --> 00:03:30.744
And I seeing that and.

00:03:31.244 --> 00:03:35.544
After having my own mental breakdown,
the question I asked in the group chat,

00:03:35.544 --> 00:03:40.499
the 10, 000 things group chat, was
Do you ever fully put the pieces back

00:03:40.499 --> 00:03:44.689
together again after you've cracked
them open or they've been cracked open?

00:03:44.699 --> 00:03:44.939
Yeah.

00:03:44.989 --> 00:03:45.159
And

00:03:45.179 --> 00:03:47.259
Sam: obviously your feeling
is, you know, you don't

00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:51.469
Ali: 100 percent no, no, like, and
this is how I described it when I

00:03:51.469 --> 00:03:56.019
went into hospital when I had my own
breakdown a few years ago in that I

00:03:56.019 --> 00:03:58.459
feel like I was like this Lego house.

00:03:58.844 --> 00:04:03.714
Like that was put together all wrong
and put up on a wonky ass Lego.

00:04:03.714 --> 00:04:06.494
Yeah, like some crazy thing a little
toddler's built, chucked it up on a

00:04:06.494 --> 00:04:09.144
shelf, gathering dust for 37 years.

00:04:09.514 --> 00:04:12.244
And someone's come and bumped
the shelf and this Lego house

00:04:12.244 --> 00:04:13.674
has smashed into a million bits.

00:04:14.134 --> 00:04:16.174
And there's no instructions.

00:04:16.374 --> 00:04:18.764
There's, you don't really know
what it's meant to look like.

00:04:19.044 --> 00:04:22.084
And you somehow have to build a
house out of all these pieces.

00:04:22.174 --> 00:04:25.724
That is what it felt like having
a breakdown and trying to.

00:04:26.904 --> 00:04:32.864
Envisage what I can build with what I
have and It's still very much a work in

00:04:32.864 --> 00:04:36.674
progress and I, the thing, like the thing
that really with the, the Robbie Docko

00:04:36.684 --> 00:04:40.864
and like, he was saying that he wants to
spend his time in bed and that was the

00:04:40.864 --> 00:04:47.304
thing that I mourn or I suppose I miss
pre Breakdown is this level of energy that

00:04:47.304 --> 00:04:53.754
has never fully recovered that I've, I
don't have this level of energy that I did

00:04:53.944 --> 00:04:59.244
like outside of mania that I don't have
like a natural sort of energy or drive

00:04:59.244 --> 00:05:03.689
that it still feels like I'm Just on the
back foot and I'm like will I ever get

00:05:03.699 --> 00:05:07.419
that back or is it just that I'm getting
older and no This is getting older.

00:05:07.629 --> 00:05:08.239
Is it getting older

00:05:08.469 --> 00:05:13.333
Joe: or is it so what I would say Ali
is you put the pieces back together

00:05:13.333 --> 00:05:16.393
as best you can and you get on with
it as best you can and that's it

00:05:16.413 --> 00:05:18.737
That's life You know, it's like that.

00:05:18.747 --> 00:05:19.187
What's that?

00:05:19.187 --> 00:05:20.737
Good enough parenting, Sam?

00:05:20.777 --> 00:05:21.487
Is that Winnicott?

00:05:21.577 --> 00:05:22.277
Yeah, yeah.

00:05:22.278 --> 00:05:24.877
Did you have good enough parents?

00:05:24.957 --> 00:05:26.347
Are you a good enough parent?

00:05:26.377 --> 00:05:27.027
Good enough.

00:05:27.217 --> 00:05:28.497
Yeah, good enough is what we get.

00:05:28.617 --> 00:05:32.017
Yeah, so I've had two
full psychotic breakdowns.

00:05:32.427 --> 00:05:34.007
I'd say I'm fine.

00:05:34.095 --> 00:05:39.645
I'd say if anything I'm more resolved
and getting better all the time.

00:05:40.145 --> 00:05:45.965
And I haven't had to have a life sentence
of anything from having breakdowns.

00:05:46.305 --> 00:05:46.515
So

00:05:46.515 --> 00:05:50.045
Ali: you don't feel there's any
lasting effect of your breakdowns?

00:05:50.855 --> 00:05:51.255
Joe: No.

00:05:51.675 --> 00:05:52.605
Ali: Really?

00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:55.770
Joe: No, I'm getting into
clear, clearer and clearer air.

00:05:55.870 --> 00:05:58.900
Ali: Oh, like, I mean, there's some
things that are so much clearer and a

00:05:58.900 --> 00:06:01.950
better understanding that like, I wouldn't
want things to be like the way they were

00:06:01.970 --> 00:06:06.100
before, it was definitely not sustainable
or healthy, definitely an element of that.

00:06:06.110 --> 00:06:09.847
But what I'm saying is there, there's
still some, whether, I don't know,

00:06:09.907 --> 00:06:12.437
maybe I'm still in the process of
putting some of it back together,

00:06:12.437 --> 00:06:13.867
but there's still feels like.

00:06:14.627 --> 00:06:18.247
There are things that were in place that
were held together, obviously somewhat

00:06:18.277 --> 00:06:20.077
okay, that seem to be highly functional.

00:06:20.077 --> 00:06:23.787
There's a level of functionality,
that's what it is, that I don't have now

00:06:24.037 --> 00:06:24.177
post...

00:06:24.247 --> 00:06:26.807
Joe: I think that's the point about
good enough is that I don't really know

00:06:26.817 --> 00:06:30.467
who Robbie Williams is, but isn't he
still playing shows to 50, 000 people?

00:06:30.537 --> 00:06:31.017
Ali: Yeah.

00:06:31.037 --> 00:06:31.907
Joe: So, that's good enough.

00:06:32.267 --> 00:06:32.987
That's what you get.

00:06:33.277 --> 00:06:35.647
You don't, if you wanna lie in bed
in between and you've got enough

00:06:35.647 --> 00:06:36.877
money to do that, that's fine.

00:06:36.907 --> 00:06:39.187
That doesn't mean you're not
getting on with your life.

00:06:39.187 --> 00:06:39.787
You are.

00:06:39.907 --> 00:06:40.027
Mm-Hmm.

00:06:40.027 --> 00:06:44.857
Like, he's still doing the thing that he's
wanted to do with his career and stuff.

00:06:44.857 --> 00:06:47.317
So that's the most you get, I think.

00:06:47.557 --> 00:06:47.677
Mm-Hmm.

00:06:47.682 --> 00:06:48.877
Sam: How old are his kids right now?

00:06:48.877 --> 00:06:52.117
Ali: That's, oh, he's got like f like
there was one that I think it is about.

00:06:52.547 --> 00:06:52.897
10.

00:06:52.897 --> 00:06:55.417
And then all the way down
to like little, little ones.

00:06:55.467 --> 00:06:57.187
He's got, yeah, he, yeah.

00:06:57.377 --> 00:06:59.797
Sam: Cause he was famously the
person who brought Twitter into

00:06:59.797 --> 00:07:02.187
the birthing room and, uh, yeah.

00:07:02.207 --> 00:07:02.717
Yeah.

00:07:03.127 --> 00:07:04.647
Let's not get too distracted with Robbie.

00:07:04.647 --> 00:07:08.517
The reason I mentioned that is that
like, that wasn't that long ago.

00:07:08.717 --> 00:07:08.967
No.

00:07:09.107 --> 00:07:10.937
So his kids aren't going to be super old.

00:07:11.107 --> 00:07:16.037
And like, surely he, I think one of
the things that maybe good enough,

00:07:16.037 --> 00:07:19.837
I'm well on board with it for sure,
but it might've crossed his mind.

00:07:19.887 --> 00:07:21.787
I could be more engaged here between.

00:07:22.717 --> 00:07:26.977
Time's with my kids or whatever, like, I
mean, I can relate to that as a parent,

00:07:27.007 --> 00:07:31.751
like, could I be doing more or of a
better quality or whatever that's, I

00:07:31.761 --> 00:07:36.782
don't, you know, the good enough has to
sit alongside the aspiration, So I, for

00:07:36.792 --> 00:07:41.252
my, for me, for my money, breakdowns are
there for a reason and I don't think the

00:07:41.252 --> 00:07:42.822
idea is to fully put it back together.

00:07:43.542 --> 00:07:45.672
Even if you could,
because that would be...

00:07:46.032 --> 00:07:48.372
Joe: Had you ever gone
into psychosis before?

00:07:49.032 --> 00:07:49.202
No.

00:07:49.202 --> 00:07:52.781
Yeah, it's a rearrangement.

00:07:52.782 --> 00:07:54.522
Ali: Yeah, it's a huge rearrangement.

00:07:54.672 --> 00:07:55.822
Joe: Did it get scary in there?

00:07:56.247 --> 00:07:56.787
Ali: Yes.

00:07:56.797 --> 00:07:57.547
Joe: Are you scared?

00:07:57.597 --> 00:07:59.697
I think you said you
thought your son was dead?

00:08:00.017 --> 00:08:00.437
Ali: Oh, yeah.

00:08:00.437 --> 00:08:02.487
So you want to, like,
the story of the site.

00:08:02.737 --> 00:08:03.407
Sam: I didn't know that part.

00:08:03.457 --> 00:08:04.127
Ali: Oh, okay.

00:08:04.127 --> 00:08:04.637
So, yeah.

00:08:05.137 --> 00:08:07.287
Joe: No, I mean, you're
saying you haven't recovered.

00:08:07.297 --> 00:08:09.427
So I'm, what I'm asking is what happened?

00:08:09.617 --> 00:08:09.767
Oh,

00:08:09.767 --> 00:08:14.791
so what, so the, in the lead up to
the breakdown, there was a series of.

00:08:14.831 --> 00:08:19.286
compounding factors and work
and relationships and life.

00:08:19.286 --> 00:08:22.536
And as my psychologist would
say, like, it's like trying to

00:08:22.546 --> 00:08:24.256
hold a beach ball underwater.

00:08:24.336 --> 00:08:26.676
And at some point your arms
are going to get tired.

00:08:27.011 --> 00:08:29.871
And it is going to hit you in the
face and then, hello, you're going

00:08:29.871 --> 00:08:31.931
to deal with some childhood trauma
now that you've really, you've been

00:08:31.931 --> 00:08:32.901
repressing for all these years.

00:08:33.231 --> 00:08:35.081
So that's what had happened.

00:08:35.091 --> 00:08:39.097
And the stress had then got to the
point where I was no longer sleeping.

00:08:39.427 --> 00:08:43.507
There's no sleeping then obviously
affects the mood with bipolar and

00:08:43.507 --> 00:08:45.257
then triggered a manic episode.

00:08:45.627 --> 00:08:49.267
And I, I knew like the day
before something wasn't right.

00:08:49.297 --> 00:08:50.097
I called my mum.

00:08:50.737 --> 00:08:57.367
And I sort of was oscillating wildly
between crying and being catatonic almost,

00:08:57.377 --> 00:09:00.757
and then just crying hysterically and
then catatonic, and I just said to my

00:09:00.757 --> 00:09:04.617
mum, something's really wrong, and she
didn't really quite know what to make

00:09:04.627 --> 00:09:06.767
of it, and it was sort of like, you
know, I just like, I don't think I can

00:09:06.767 --> 00:09:09.772
go to work tomorrow, like I just don't
know what's Something's really wrong.

00:09:09.772 --> 00:09:11.992
I just didn't know what it was,
but something was really wrong.

00:09:12.002 --> 00:09:15.082
And anyway, that night, again,
I hadn't slept for days and

00:09:15.082 --> 00:09:16.072
days and days at this point.

00:09:16.092 --> 00:09:21.002
And I was awake all night and I started
having delusions that my son was dead.

00:09:21.282 --> 00:09:23.732
I thought he died and
he was at school camp.

00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:25.010
I was convinced he was dead.

00:09:25.020 --> 00:09:28.700
I was trying to call the school camp at
like three in the morning, like trying

00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:31.430
to make arrangements for his funeral.

00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:33.430
Like it was just, it was awful.

00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.510
Um, and then I'm.

00:09:35.595 --> 00:09:37.537
Um, you know, and this is, this is
something I haven't really talked

00:09:37.537 --> 00:09:41.627
about a lot, but at that point
I was like, well, my son's gone.

00:09:41.737 --> 00:09:42.407
What's the point?

00:09:42.937 --> 00:09:43.507
What is the point?

00:09:43.817 --> 00:09:44.337
What is the point?

00:09:44.367 --> 00:09:48.197
And so I made plans, I
say loosely, to end it.

00:09:48.336 --> 00:09:51.995
and I'd left some garbled voicemail
messages on my sister's phone who

00:09:52.015 --> 00:09:55.455
mercifully, when she in the morning was
like, Oh God, something's really wrong.

00:09:55.455 --> 00:09:56.225
I know what this means.

00:09:56.435 --> 00:09:59.255
And so she's like, I'm going
to take you to the doctor.

00:09:59.275 --> 00:10:00.635
Like something, you
just, something's wrong.

00:10:01.165 --> 00:10:02.795
And then she picks me up.

00:10:03.420 --> 00:10:06.750
And I'm in full glam because
I want to look good going out.

00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:07.490
Yeah.

00:10:08.210 --> 00:10:08.420
Right?

00:10:08.500 --> 00:10:09.430
I know, for sure.

00:10:09.430 --> 00:10:12.930
So, because at this stage I'm
like manic, I'm, I'm not there.

00:10:12.930 --> 00:10:13.180
I'm just...

00:10:13.180 --> 00:10:13.930
Get on the war gear.

00:10:13.970 --> 00:10:15.330
I was like floridly manic.

00:10:15.340 --> 00:10:18.570
And you know, so I, you know,
sequins and full face makeup

00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:19.870
at like seven in the morning.

00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:20.400
It's going to help.

00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:20.770
Yeah.

00:10:20.770 --> 00:10:24.190
She takes me to the GP and the
GP was like, uh, you're floridly

00:10:24.190 --> 00:10:25.010
manic straight to hospital.

00:10:25.010 --> 00:10:25.810
And then that was what...

00:10:25.810 --> 00:10:25.920
Great.

00:10:26.070 --> 00:10:26.420
Yes.

00:10:26.420 --> 00:10:26.910
And then I...

00:10:27.070 --> 00:10:29.710
Was, you know, impatient
after that for a little bit.

00:10:29.910 --> 00:10:31.240
I think I told work that way.

00:10:31.250 --> 00:10:34.120
I was like, I'm just having a couple,
just a couple of mental health days.

00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:35.190
I'll be back next week.

00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:36.420
I think it was like a Wednesday.

00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:38.320
Um, and I was in hospital six weeks.

00:10:40.210 --> 00:10:42.044
If that was any indication
of my state of mind.

00:10:42.044 --> 00:10:42.780
Did they not know

00:10:42.800 --> 00:10:44.740
that you were bipolar before that?

00:10:45.030 --> 00:10:48.890
Ali: Yeah, they knew, but like, I just
never, I'd never had an episode like that.

00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:49.130
Yeah.

00:10:49.180 --> 00:10:50.530
Um, so you went from

00:10:50.530 --> 00:10:51.910
Joe: type two to type one or something.

00:10:52.300 --> 00:10:55.060
Ali: No, no, so sometimes you can
have these like protracted manic

00:10:55.060 --> 00:10:56.990
episodes even though you have type 2.

00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:58.970
Sam: Ooh, technicalities, inside baseball.

00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:01.420
Joe: What was your plan to,
how were you going to kill

00:11:01.420 --> 00:11:02.570
yourself in the sequent dress?

00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:04.460
Ali: I was going to go in the bath.

00:11:04.910 --> 00:11:05.840
Sam: Oh, yeah.

00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:06.560
Yeah.

00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:07.150
Illuminati

00:11:07.160 --> 00:11:07.650
Ali: sacrifice.

00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:08.120
Hmm.

00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:09.010
Yeah.

00:11:09.310 --> 00:11:09.650
Yeah.

00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:12.850
Which was, went to years of then not
even being able to get in a bath.

00:11:12.860 --> 00:11:13.390
Like, yes.

00:11:13.410 --> 00:11:13.900
Oh, really?

00:11:13.990 --> 00:11:16.650
Very recently, I've been able
to start taking baths again.

00:11:16.650 --> 00:11:19.180
Cause it was just a fear of like,
Oh, this is not a safe place.

00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:19.570
Sam: Okay.

00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:19.930
If it's not true.

00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:20.970
Joe: That would have been tragic.

00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:23.540
So a complete delusion that
something had happened to your son.

00:11:23.550 --> 00:11:23.620
Yeah.

00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:24.300
Oh my goodness.

00:11:24.300 --> 00:11:25.030
Leads to you dying.

00:11:25.050 --> 00:11:25.490
A real.

00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:26.520
Your son not having a mum.

00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:26.980
Sam: Yeah.

00:11:27.030 --> 00:11:28.880
It's actually a Romeo and
Juliet, but even worse.

00:11:29.630 --> 00:11:31.050
Yeah, you didn't have
the right information.

00:11:31.060 --> 00:11:31.880
You didn't have the right information.

00:11:32.150 --> 00:11:36.330
That is, that is an asymmetry, that is
a tragic asymmetry, but in the end, I

00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:37.630
mean, the right intervention occurred.

00:11:38.710 --> 00:11:41.340
Joe: But maybe that's, maybe that's
what you've had such a hard time getting

00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:42.680
over is thinking your son was dead.

00:11:42.930 --> 00:11:43.400
Ali: Yeah.

00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:43.700
Yeah.

00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:47.370
Like, I mean, when I then, like, I
know where my sister picked me up

00:11:47.370 --> 00:11:48.610
and she was explaining, but he's not.

00:11:48.630 --> 00:11:49.500
And I was like, Oh, yeah.

00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:49.515
Yeah.

00:11:50.215 --> 00:11:50.385
Was it,

00:11:50.395 --> 00:11:51.305
Sam: did that come as a relief?

00:11:51.305 --> 00:11:52.497
Were you able to onboard that?

00:11:52.497 --> 00:11:52.825
Ali: Yeah, it was weird.

00:11:52.825 --> 00:11:53.435
It was weird.

00:11:53.465 --> 00:11:55.425
Cause I was still, I sort
of really wasn't with it.

00:11:55.425 --> 00:11:57.915
Like I really didn't know what
was going on at that point at all.

00:11:58.009 --> 00:12:00.189
so yeah, they were like, they
were able to explain to me and

00:12:00.189 --> 00:12:01.399
I was like, oh, okay, he's safe.

00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:01.939
He's fine.

00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:02.669
Sam: Did you feel better at that point?

00:12:02.669 --> 00:12:04.539
Ali: And I was like
weirdly okay with it all.

00:12:04.549 --> 00:12:05.769
I was like, okay, don't mind guys.

00:12:05.939 --> 00:12:06.239
Like I'm fine.

00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:08.649
Joe: I had a similar thing.

00:12:08.699 --> 00:12:09.089
Yeah.

00:12:09.151 --> 00:12:10.141
that's relatable.

00:12:10.421 --> 00:12:12.401
I had a similar thing last
time I was psychotic where I,

00:12:12.771 --> 00:12:14.361
someone whose funeral I'd missed.

00:12:15.131 --> 00:12:18.441
Uh, and I felt really guilty about it
because I'd had a big night, this is

00:12:18.441 --> 00:12:22.491
when I was still drinking and using,
had a big night and missed his funeral.

00:12:22.541 --> 00:12:23.621
Yep, classic stuff.

00:12:24.916 --> 00:12:27.746
Once I became psychotic, I was
convinced she was still alive.

00:12:28.186 --> 00:12:33.866
I was trying to contact her family members
to talk to them about how she wasn't dead.

00:12:33.886 --> 00:12:34.346
Oh my god.

00:12:34.996 --> 00:12:38.346
Which is, that's the unfortunate thing
about psychosis is it puts you in

00:12:38.346 --> 00:12:43.906
some very embarrassing and upsetting
to other people circumstances.

00:12:44.956 --> 00:12:47.606
And it was just because I felt so
much guilt and shame about missing

00:12:47.606 --> 00:12:49.786
that person I'd loved's funeral.

00:12:49.826 --> 00:12:50.926
And then obviously you...

00:12:51.146 --> 00:12:55.416
As a mum, it's just that
normal mum level of attachment,

00:12:56.296 --> 00:12:57.396
like the most important thing.

00:12:57.846 --> 00:13:00.856
Sam: I think any parent out there
could actually relate to more

00:13:01.446 --> 00:13:02.586
of that than you might think.

00:13:02.766 --> 00:13:02.896
Oh

00:13:02.896 --> 00:13:05.966
Ali: yeah, like not wanting to,
never wanting to live through that.

00:13:05.986 --> 00:13:06.536
That's not a thing.

00:13:06.936 --> 00:13:09.386
Still, even now, like that's not
something I want to live through.

00:13:09.676 --> 00:13:10.846
I don't ever want to think of that.

00:13:11.696 --> 00:13:13.026
Sam: No, no, no, that's right.

00:13:13.056 --> 00:13:14.956
And you can't spend your
life, I mean, despite.

00:13:15.456 --> 00:13:19.016
Seneca's advice to, you know, always
contemplate these possibilities, but

00:13:19.016 --> 00:13:21.556
like, it's like, Jesus, dude, he's
like, he's a bit hardcore sometimes.

00:13:21.566 --> 00:13:24.846
Joe: Yeah, but kids were dying a
lot more often back in ancient Rome.

00:13:24.906 --> 00:13:25.626
I guess that's true.

00:13:25.636 --> 00:13:30.866
Sam: But, but, but it was also advice that
was designed to bring the consciousness.

00:13:31.316 --> 00:13:31.656
Yeah.

00:13:31.816 --> 00:13:33.846
Joe: Marcus Aurelius says the
same thing in meditation too.

00:13:34.381 --> 00:13:37.311
I don't want to be a changed man
because of the loss of a child.

00:13:37.341 --> 00:13:38.501
Yeah, which is just going too far.

00:13:38.691 --> 00:13:39.971
Sam: I just want to get on with it.

00:13:40.001 --> 00:13:40.711
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:40.751 --> 00:13:41.131
That's right.

00:13:41.601 --> 00:13:41.801
That's

00:13:41.801 --> 00:13:42.001
Joe: right.

00:13:42.001 --> 00:13:42.621
Anyway, we're...

00:13:42.831 --> 00:13:43.778
Oh, no, no, no, I don't think...

00:13:43.778 --> 00:13:45.201
Stoics don't need to
intrude on Ali's story.

00:13:45.211 --> 00:13:45.831
No, I don't

00:13:45.851 --> 00:13:48.770
Sam: think it's a, I don't think
it's a stray because the part

00:13:48.770 --> 00:13:52.690
that any parent could relate to
is the delusion that they're dead.

00:13:52.890 --> 00:13:53.060
Yeah.

00:13:53.110 --> 00:13:56.128
This occurs to, I firmly
believe, every parent.

00:13:56.258 --> 00:13:56.628
Yeah.

00:13:56.628 --> 00:13:57.173
Like...

00:13:57.363 --> 00:13:58.373
And they're in the next room.

00:13:59.243 --> 00:13:59.573
Yeah,

00:13:59.723 --> 00:14:02.823
Joe: yeah, yeah, especially when
they're babies and you're like, is this,

00:14:03.263 --> 00:14:04.173
you're checking if they're breathing?

00:14:04.463 --> 00:14:05.453
Ali: Yeah, like, is this normal?

00:14:05.453 --> 00:14:07.193
Is this, you know, you worry
about every little thing.

00:14:07.223 --> 00:14:08.593
Anyway, so that's, well,

00:14:08.633 --> 00:14:11.003
Sam: the catastrophe we
fear has already occurred.

00:14:11.003 --> 00:14:11.223
Yes.

00:14:11.423 --> 00:14:14.153
Joe: But things become
exaggerated in mania, psychosis.

00:14:14.153 --> 00:14:14.658
Sam: That's right.

00:14:14.658 --> 00:14:15.163
That's right.

00:14:15.163 --> 00:14:16.003
Joe: Yeah, you got rocked.

00:14:16.243 --> 00:14:17.183
You got rocked, bro.

00:14:17.203 --> 00:14:18.023
Sam: You got rocked hard.

00:14:18.623 --> 00:14:19.673
Joe: You're actually fine.

00:14:19.673 --> 00:14:22.033
I mean, you're still doing the
same job that you're doing.

00:14:22.371 --> 00:14:26.756
you're now doing this podcast, you've been
a great mum, your kid's getting on with

00:14:26.756 --> 00:14:29.476
their life, like, in reality, you're fine.

00:14:29.496 --> 00:14:29.976
It is appropriate.

00:14:29.976 --> 00:14:30.916
Ali: Yeah, oh yeah, like there's

00:14:30.916 --> 00:14:34.126
Joe: So what, what's the bit that doesn't
feel, you're saying, just low energy?

00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:35.570
There is it, it's not a

00:14:35.810 --> 00:14:37.370
Sam: Will I achieve my former glory?

00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:37.910
Joe: Yeah.

00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:38.695
I, there was no form.

00:14:39.005 --> 00:14:40.055
This is the glory now.

00:14:40.130 --> 00:14:40.430
Ali: Yeah.

00:14:40.430 --> 00:14:43.700
No, I, I feel like in some, so many
ways things are so much better.

00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:48.470
It's not agreed, but I, it's in a lot of
ways everything feels a little bit harder.

00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:49.070
Yeah.

00:14:49.070 --> 00:14:49.910
And that's what it is.

00:14:49.910 --> 00:14:51.080
Joe: That's the getting older stuff.

00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:53.000
I think like everything, me
and Sam are older than you.

00:14:53.150 --> 00:14:55.340
Once you're over 40, mate,
you're, you're always tired.

00:14:55.615 --> 00:14:56.630
Sam: I, I look, I don't know.

00:14:56.690 --> 00:14:58.720
I maintain some hope here that age.

00:14:58.720 --> 00:14:59.620
Are you not always tired?

00:14:59.875 --> 00:15:04.405
Joe: Yeah, of course, but 21
year olds are not always tired.

00:15:04.405 --> 00:15:06.305
I got to tell you, and
they're rarely tired.

00:15:06.305 --> 00:15:06.745
That's true.

00:15:06.835 --> 00:15:10.725
Ali: But like, no, it's just like, like,
it's really, I remember it's not fair,

00:15:11.385 --> 00:15:14.975
like the really simple little things
that I just would never have batted an

00:15:14.985 --> 00:15:17.105
eyelid or thought twice about doing.

00:15:17.115 --> 00:15:17.385
Yeah.

00:15:18.135 --> 00:15:24.625
I become so has, has in my mind become
so much harder, so much like to dig

00:15:24.635 --> 00:15:29.655
so much deeper to be able to do a
lot of things that I was able to do.

00:15:29.655 --> 00:15:33.775
I feel a lot easier and I say this as
someone who's never been a particularly

00:15:33.775 --> 00:15:38.215
high energy person outside of maybe I've
always run, but not a high energy person.

00:15:38.215 --> 00:15:41.235
So, but I still was able
to do a lot more like.

00:15:41.865 --> 00:15:46.185
Like, I, I feel like, you know, even if
I look back and, you know, working 50,

00:15:46.185 --> 00:15:51.170
60 hours a week doing overtime, you know,
Taking care of, you know, small child.

00:15:51.670 --> 00:15:54.510
I was like baking
sourdough on the weekend.

00:15:54.510 --> 00:15:57.860
I was making like, I was
doing stuff from scratch.

00:15:57.870 --> 00:15:59.510
I had this whole thing about doing
everything from scratch because

00:15:59.510 --> 00:16:00.960
it was not, that's the insanity.

00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:01.260
Yeah.

00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:04.220
There was like this insanity of, I didn't
feel anything was worth doing unless

00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:08.980
I was suffering for it, which is, you
know, like now I can see is madness.

00:16:09.010 --> 00:16:11.330
This sort of functionality I
can do without, but I'm like, I

00:16:11.330 --> 00:16:13.990
would, what it would be like to
make something from scratch again.

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.540
Joe: Me and Sam are thinking that,
well, it'd be therapeutic to do that.

00:16:16.810 --> 00:16:17.900
I think I know what you're thinking.

00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:18.360
I am.

00:16:18.715 --> 00:16:20.345
Yes, maybe the first time ever.

00:16:20.395 --> 00:16:21.085
I'm fascinated.

00:16:21.165 --> 00:16:25.205
I think we're thinking that Ali
is suffering under the illusion.

00:16:25.815 --> 00:16:28.055
That there was some better former self.

00:16:28.085 --> 00:16:29.005
Yeah, we are on it.

00:16:29.055 --> 00:16:31.115
Actually the best self is this version.

00:16:31.115 --> 00:16:31.915
It's just a bit

00:16:31.915 --> 00:16:32.635
Sam: more

00:16:32.635 --> 00:16:32.905
Ali: chill.

00:16:33.265 --> 00:16:36.965
It's a bit more chill, but it's also
a bit like a bit slower moving these

00:16:36.995 --> 00:16:39.975
like everything's just a bit And I
don't know if it's so much an age thing

00:16:39.985 --> 00:16:42.525
because it's only been a few years
Yeah, but it's a short time really.

00:16:42.565 --> 00:16:43.225
Joe: I feel like.

00:16:43.225 --> 00:16:44.265
Could it be meds related?

00:16:44.265 --> 00:16:47.655
Ali: It could be like, I mean,
I've had like iron checked, meds

00:16:47.665 --> 00:16:50.015
checked, like everything like it's
probably the best it's gonna be.

00:16:50.575 --> 00:16:55.475
Be right, like that's like physically,
as far as energy goes, it just feels

00:16:55.475 --> 00:17:01.065
like there's some sort of motivation
to do with that energy that is,

00:17:01.065 --> 00:17:03.735
is harder to tap into these days.

00:17:04.025 --> 00:17:04.615
That's what it is.

00:17:04.765 --> 00:17:06.455
Sam: I think I know the
feeling you're talking about.

00:17:06.535 --> 00:17:06.845
Yeah.

00:17:07.265 --> 00:17:09.615
It is interesting to be in
agreement, Joe, we're both.

00:17:10.270 --> 00:17:14.630
Kicking back and being the therapeutic
experts to a degree and diagnosing

00:17:14.630 --> 00:17:16.020
and feeling quite smug about it.

00:17:16.020 --> 00:17:16.800
It's fun, isn't it?

00:17:16.840 --> 00:17:17.070
Yeah.

00:17:17.070 --> 00:17:19.190
Joe: This is Ali at her best.

00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:20.500
She doesn't realize

00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:20.660
it.

00:17:20.820 --> 00:17:21.530
Sam: She doesn't realize it.

00:17:21.580 --> 00:17:23.900
And also I was thinking of your coach.

00:17:24.760 --> 00:17:28.000
The coach metaphor with your therapist
you've talked about, sometimes

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.480
you just need a good bigging up.

00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:33.170
And I was thinking to myself, this would
be an appropriate time, Joe, I think,

00:17:33.190 --> 00:17:38.280
as much as you and I have a real hair
shirt and like whip view of what therapy,

00:17:38.280 --> 00:17:39.560
you know, therapy should be hardcore.

00:17:39.760 --> 00:17:42.340
But I think we're okay with
saying you're crushing it.

00:17:42.630 --> 00:17:43.740
So feel good.

00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:44.610
Who's crushing it?

00:17:44.610 --> 00:17:44.920
Ali.

00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:45.260
Yeah.

00:17:45.260 --> 00:17:48.630
At this point, at this point,
at this point in your life,

00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:50.340
Joe: I never knew the old Ali who bakes

00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:51.270
Sam: sourdough.

00:17:51.270 --> 00:17:51.900
Yeah.

00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:52.130
Yeah.

00:17:52.150 --> 00:17:52.330
See,

00:17:52.330 --> 00:17:53.040
Ali: to me.

00:17:53.535 --> 00:17:57.375
Like Ali, old Ali was, like, had
a full functioning, you know,

00:17:57.475 --> 00:17:58.965
farm going in her backyard.

00:17:59.525 --> 00:18:00.565
That is cool.

00:18:01.005 --> 00:18:04.045
Joe: She had a successful
Instagram account for a garden

00:18:04.045 --> 00:18:05.835
with, uh, someone famous.

00:18:05.865 --> 00:18:07.115
Who was that writing to you?

00:18:07.285 --> 00:18:07.595
Great.

00:18:07.645 --> 00:18:07.965
Ali: Yeah.

00:18:07.965 --> 00:18:09.335
Like, it was just...

00:18:09.685 --> 00:18:10.005
Who was it?

00:18:10.005 --> 00:18:10.065
You

00:18:10.065 --> 00:18:10.535
Joe: gotta tell us.

00:18:11.580 --> 00:18:12.450
Ali: Oh, it waigs Nella.

00:18:12.450 --> 00:18:13.320
We've talked about it a lot.

00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:14.425
Oh yeah, that's right.

00:18:14.565 --> 00:18:14.785
You

00:18:14.785 --> 00:18:15.840
Sam: had, you had the endorsement.

00:18:15.870 --> 00:18:16.080
Yeah.

00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:16.680
From the great one.

00:18:16.830 --> 00:18:17.070
Okay.

00:18:17.070 --> 00:18:18.630
Joe: Maybe old Ali was better.

00:18:18.630 --> 00:18:19.080
Yeah.

00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:20.425
Ali: Maybe like, I mean something to it.

00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:20.850
Yeah.

00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:21.150
Like, alright,

00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:21.960
Sam: here's another theory.

00:18:22.020 --> 00:18:22.140
Yeah.

00:18:22.260 --> 00:18:23.430
Let's not dismiss your feeling.

00:18:23.430 --> 00:18:23.730
Anyway.

00:18:23.730 --> 00:18:24.985
Let's validate this feeling.

00:18:25.095 --> 00:18:26.970
Ali: This is like, I was always, yeah.

00:18:26.970 --> 00:18:28.560
I was high achiever at school.

00:18:28.590 --> 00:18:28.800
Yeah.

00:18:28.945 --> 00:18:31.950
I feel like I had a lot
of unrealized potential.

00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:34.385
Like a lot of ADHD
private schools, burnout.

00:18:34.535 --> 00:18:34.825
Yeah.

00:18:34.825 --> 00:18:36.480
Like a lot of that high ability burnout.

00:18:36.540 --> 00:18:36.840
Yeah.

00:18:36.840 --> 00:18:37.890
So there was a lot of that.

00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:38.460
Yeah.

00:18:38.596 --> 00:18:42.056
I still feel like even with all the
things and the mistakes that I made, I

00:18:42.056 --> 00:18:47.586
still was able to get the really good
job, you know, I still did things.

00:18:48.091 --> 00:18:51.481
Really fucking well, like I did that,
and I did, and it wasn't, and it didn't

00:18:51.481 --> 00:18:57.421
feel hard, and so, I, everything just
feels a little bit harder, and it's

00:18:57.431 --> 00:19:01.471
not that I, yeah, I'm not doing great
things with my life now, it's, but

00:19:01.491 --> 00:19:05.061
I'm not making sourdough bread on my
weekends, I'm, you know, I want to spend

00:19:05.061 --> 00:19:06.851
a lot of my time, like Robbie, in bed.

00:19:06.851 --> 00:19:07.181
Sure,

00:19:07.421 --> 00:19:08.551
Joe: sounds like you're less annoying.

00:19:08.736 --> 00:19:09.786
Yeah.

00:19:09.966 --> 00:19:10.056
Yeah!

00:19:10.356 --> 00:19:11.036
More relatable.

00:19:11.146 --> 00:19:14.166
I don't want to hang out with the person
with the flowering veggie garden and

00:19:14.166 --> 00:19:15.446
making the sourdough from scratch.

00:19:15.456 --> 00:19:17.716
Sam: Actually, the veggie garden
is cool, but the sourdough, like,

00:19:18.436 --> 00:19:19.726
this is your sourdough, Ali.

00:19:19.756 --> 00:19:21.556
Now, look at what we're
making from scratch.

00:19:21.556 --> 00:19:23.356
Ali: Yeah, but I suppose
like my bandwidth...

00:19:23.606 --> 00:19:25.566
Felt bigger, is what it was.

00:19:25.596 --> 00:19:27.756
That, that, like, I had
an enormous capacity.

00:19:27.776 --> 00:19:28.756
Even with a kid, yeah.

00:19:28.766 --> 00:19:31.086
Even with a kid, I was
still doing an awful lot.

00:19:31.096 --> 00:19:32.126
Joe: So, here's one for you.

00:19:32.166 --> 00:19:35.576
My mate Eckhart Tolle reckons that
we have two phases in our life.

00:19:35.576 --> 00:19:39.336
One when we're expanding in life, and
we're putting more and more out there.

00:19:39.376 --> 00:19:39.616
Yep.

00:19:40.126 --> 00:19:42.436
And then one when we start
contracting towards death.

00:19:43.056 --> 00:19:43.356
Ali: And you might...

00:19:43.356 --> 00:19:45.286
Oh, I'm in the contraction
then, if you're looking at it.

00:19:45.286 --> 00:19:47.981
Like, that seems so obvious to
me, that I'm in a contraction.

00:19:47.981 --> 00:19:50.406
Joe: Well, here's another theory,
that maybe once you decide to jump

00:19:50.406 --> 00:19:51.606
in the bath and kill yourself...

00:19:51.941 --> 00:19:54.841
You went over the edge of
death and you've come back.

00:19:54.891 --> 00:19:56.811
Yes, it's the hero's journey.

00:19:56.851 --> 00:20:00.831
It's like, Oh, well, I could be dead
because I thought my kid was dead.

00:20:00.841 --> 00:20:04.221
And now here I am, but I'm not, I'm not
getting out of bed at 6 in the morning.

00:20:04.221 --> 00:20:04.551
This is

00:20:05.311 --> 00:20:07.941
Ali: like 10 to my kombucha scoby.

00:20:07.941 --> 00:20:09.481
You

00:20:09.481 --> 00:20:10.781
Joe: already decided to check out.

00:20:10.781 --> 00:20:11.871
So this is like your afterlife.

00:20:11.881 --> 00:20:12.481
The hero is like,

00:20:12.961 --> 00:20:16.021
Sam: this reminds me very strongly
of Joseph Campbell, the hero with a

00:20:16.021 --> 00:20:17.501
thousand faces, like the hero's journey.

00:20:17.501 --> 00:20:17.741
Right.

00:20:18.021 --> 00:20:18.761
And one of the.

00:20:19.561 --> 00:20:23.347
Stages is like, like approaching
the innermost cave and a feeling of

00:20:23.347 --> 00:20:27.387
impending doom, a feeling of crisis
with a feeling of, uh, life and

00:20:27.387 --> 00:20:31.967
death, like an, you know, the ordeal
and the symbolic death and rebirth,

00:20:32.067 --> 00:20:34.687
atonement, and then the road back.

00:20:35.032 --> 00:20:37.822
To reality and back to the ordinary world.

00:20:38.212 --> 00:20:38.242
Mm.

00:20:38.272 --> 00:20:41.062
Which is, and the road back to
the ordinary world is also beset

00:20:41.062 --> 00:20:44.602
with perils and, uh, setbacks.

00:20:44.602 --> 00:20:48.322
And one of the many, you know, perils
we can face is a disappointment with

00:20:48.327 --> 00:20:49.883
the ordinary world when we return to it.

00:20:49.888 --> 00:20:50.047
Mm-Hmm.

00:20:50.152 --> 00:20:51.082
, you know, things like that.

00:20:51.318 --> 00:20:54.618
you know, I was thinking like this
is a very compelling story and it

00:20:54.678 --> 00:20:58.008
made me grateful that I'd had like a
smaller breakdown and had it earlier.

00:20:58.278 --> 00:20:58.578
Mm-Hmm.

00:20:58.608 --> 00:20:59.478
But I can really relate.

00:20:59.488 --> 00:21:03.674
Um, not to the, not the florid mania,
but like the lack of sleep, losing

00:21:03.674 --> 00:21:07.684
your moorings with reality, like the,
the delusion starting to come in, the

00:21:07.714 --> 00:21:09.724
chronic anxiety and panic attacks.

00:21:09.854 --> 00:21:13.484
So this went on for about a week and
yeah, I was falling apart and like,

00:21:13.484 --> 00:21:15.044
yeah, it just couldn't mentally.

00:21:15.054 --> 00:21:17.564
It was just, you could, yeah, you could
feel yourself coming apart at the seams.

00:21:19.024 --> 00:21:20.114
I can relate to all of that.

00:21:20.284 --> 00:21:22.164
And I was thinking, what
was I like before that?

00:21:22.164 --> 00:21:23.164
What was I like after?

00:21:23.184 --> 00:21:27.894
And yeah, God, man, it was a very long
rebuilding process and still going on

00:21:27.904 --> 00:21:29.084
now, really, when I think about it.

00:21:29.094 --> 00:21:31.784
Ali: Like I've watched like a lot of

00:21:31.854 --> 00:21:33.154
Sam: that was like 23 years ago.

00:21:33.194 --> 00:21:33.494
Ali: Yeah.

00:21:33.494 --> 00:21:36.854
Like a lot of video, like, you know,
people who've gone through like

00:21:36.854 --> 00:21:42.124
this sort of, like a similar sort of
experience and they talk about like

00:21:42.134 --> 00:21:44.364
the healing phase and like, and how.

00:21:45.219 --> 00:21:49.929
In healing, you do need that time to
rest and you are still healing and it

00:21:49.939 --> 00:21:52.609
takes an extraordinary amount of time.

00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:56.649
And like, I'm like, am I, yeah, am I
being a bit lazy or am I healing or

00:21:56.979 --> 00:22:00.539
like, you know, I mean like it's been,
it was a few years ago now, so, you

00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:04.109
know, for someone who was always doing
an awful lot, it's like, okay, when's

00:22:04.269 --> 00:22:07.139
this going to fucking end so I can
get on and do the things I want to do.

00:22:07.179 --> 00:22:07.759
Are we done yet?

00:22:07.819 --> 00:22:08.389
Are we done yet?

00:22:08.389 --> 00:22:11.369
I want to do like, that was, that was
the first thing I said to my psychologist

00:22:11.389 --> 00:22:15.139
when You know, he'd said to me, like
when I, you know, I wanted a timeline,

00:22:15.159 --> 00:22:19.339
I wanted to, I wanted, you know, I was
like, how long is this going to take?

00:22:19.389 --> 00:22:22.189
You know, he's like, and
you know, count six months.

00:22:22.489 --> 00:22:23.099
Are we in here six months?

00:22:23.639 --> 00:22:27.799
And he said to me, he's like, no,
like, you know, like realistically,

00:22:28.754 --> 00:22:30.464
As in therapy, yeah, I thought
I'd be done in six months.

00:22:30.464 --> 00:22:33.704
And he's like, he goes, if you were
super diligent, he goes, I can't say that

00:22:33.704 --> 00:22:35.714
you couldn't get it done in six months.

00:22:35.994 --> 00:22:38.094
But he said, realistically,
he goes, I'd say it's going to

00:22:38.094 --> 00:22:39.244
be a few years, three years.

00:22:39.654 --> 00:22:41.994
And I was like, I'm going to
beat, I'm going to do it in two.

00:22:41.994 --> 00:22:42.844
And he's like, good luck.

00:22:42.844 --> 00:22:46.494
I mean, I'm in my, I've
just moved past two years.

00:22:46.494 --> 00:22:50.994
Oh no, I just, I'm taking a little
considered break for a couple of months.

00:22:50.994 --> 00:22:53.134
Joe: So you haven't quite got to
two years and you've stopped going.

00:22:53.734 --> 00:22:54.094
Ali: No, no, no.

00:22:54.094 --> 00:22:55.274
It was more than two years.

00:22:55.394 --> 00:22:59.454
And I, I decided to take a little
break just for a couple of months,

00:22:59.614 --> 00:23:02.564
just to, because I've had some
physical stuff to focus on.

00:23:02.564 --> 00:23:02.764
So

00:23:02.764 --> 00:23:03.274
Joe: maybe this

00:23:03.274 --> 00:23:05.164
Ali: attitude

00:23:05.164 --> 00:23:05.694
Joe: to your break.

00:23:06.184 --> 00:23:09.114
So, the breakdown is just that you're
conditioning as a private school girl

00:23:09.114 --> 00:23:11.014
with a successful businessman father.

00:23:11.334 --> 00:23:13.814
And you're like, I need to crack
on with things and just get on with

00:23:13.814 --> 00:23:15.204
it, get this done, get on with it.

00:23:15.524 --> 00:23:17.784
But actually, maybe what
you've moved into is a more

00:23:18.204 --> 00:23:19.604
contemplative phase of your life.

00:23:19.604 --> 00:23:22.374
But because you have no
spiritual life, you haven't been

00:23:22.374 --> 00:23:23.944
able to always the hard sell.

00:23:24.444 --> 00:23:28.284
You haven't been able to reflect or
go a bit deeper and understand the

00:23:28.284 --> 00:23:30.644
slowing down a bit from some other.

00:23:30.954 --> 00:23:36.054
Beyond your rational materialist way
of thinking something deeper is maybe

00:23:36.054 --> 00:23:40.664
calling to you from this quieter space
But you don't have a way to access

00:23:40.664 --> 00:23:41.884
it because you've completely shut

00:23:41.884 --> 00:23:42.124
Sam: down.

00:23:42.264 --> 00:23:42.984
I don't know I don't know.

00:23:42.984 --> 00:23:44.244
I feel like it's being accessed here.

00:23:44.244 --> 00:23:46.134
But that's part of the work
we're doing here I think

00:23:46.514 --> 00:23:49.584
Joe: but yeah, but it butts up
against the hard wall with Ali because

00:23:50.644 --> 00:23:51.554
Sam: Oh, yeah, you might be right.

00:23:51.554 --> 00:23:52.594
I'm sure there's barriers galore.

00:23:53.834 --> 00:23:55.517
Joe: It's hard to explain
rationally, but you can't really

00:23:55.517 --> 00:23:56.914
explain your psychosis rationally.

00:23:56.914 --> 00:23:58.094
You thought the kid was dead.

00:23:58.094 --> 00:23:58.544
Yeah, I know.

00:23:58.794 --> 00:23:59.634
And you believed that.

00:23:59.654 --> 00:24:00.004
But like...

00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:00.274
It's not...

00:24:00.564 --> 00:24:02.294
You left the rational.

00:24:02.324 --> 00:24:03.624
Ali: I left the rational, but I...

00:24:03.624 --> 00:24:03.828
So

00:24:03.828 --> 00:24:06.070
Joe: you were no longer a high
achieving private school girl, you

00:24:06.070 --> 00:24:07.454
were suddenly in another realm.

00:24:07.464 --> 00:24:08.814
But the rational explanation is...

00:24:09.114 --> 00:24:10.774
That's what Sam's talking about
with the hero's journey, you

00:24:10.784 --> 00:24:12.054
went into the darkest cave.

00:24:12.054 --> 00:24:12.584
That's right.

00:24:12.594 --> 00:24:13.159
But the rational explanation is...

00:24:13.159 --> 00:24:15.134
And the brightest treasure is
in the darkest cave, right?

00:24:15.334 --> 00:24:15.664
Sam: That's right.

00:24:15.664 --> 00:24:16.174
Ali: Exactly.

00:24:16.174 --> 00:24:21.214
Is the, yeah, like I said, the rational
explanation is I have a mood disorder.

00:24:21.274 --> 00:24:21.514
Yeah.

00:24:21.574 --> 00:24:23.104
I had had lack of sleep.

00:24:23.104 --> 00:24:25.864
I was on an enormous stress
during the time, but you have a

00:24:25.864 --> 00:24:27.484
chemical imbalance in the brain,

00:24:27.489 --> 00:24:27.739
Joe: experie.

00:24:27.744 --> 00:24:28.204
That makes sense.

00:24:28.239 --> 00:24:31.654
But phenomenology, phenomenologically,
what you experienced was not

00:24:31.654 --> 00:24:33.964
just a bunch of symptoms like or

00:24:35.224 --> 00:24:35.619
Ali: I say it is.

00:24:36.184 --> 00:24:36.994
Sam: That's how I see it.

00:24:37.024 --> 00:24:37.294
Yeah.

00:24:37.354 --> 00:24:37.654
Joe: I'm less.

00:24:37.954 --> 00:24:40.024
Well, let's get you back here
when you're in psychosis and

00:24:40.024 --> 00:24:41.284
see what's really going on.

00:24:41.509 --> 00:24:42.189
But that

00:24:42.189 --> 00:24:43.339
Sam: doesn't reveal it either, though.

00:24:43.389 --> 00:24:43.559
No.

00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:46.309
Joe: No one moment reveals it.

00:24:46.439 --> 00:24:48.279
There's no rational way into that state.

00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:48.669
Ali: I don't

00:24:48.669 --> 00:24:51.879
Joe: see, like I, you left
the logical, you left, logic

00:24:51.879 --> 00:24:53.259
is only one way of thinking.

00:24:53.329 --> 00:24:56.299
Ali: So do you, do you think that
there's meaning within psychosis?

00:24:56.309 --> 00:24:56.489
So

00:24:56.719 --> 00:24:59.649
Joe: much meaning, oh my
god, it's all meaning.

00:24:59.659 --> 00:25:00.499
Well, this is a

00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:03.409
Sam: theological one now, because
is there meaning in suffering?

00:25:03.409 --> 00:25:05.259
Like, even Christians
are divided on that one.

00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:05.769
Yeah, I, I,

00:25:06.129 --> 00:25:07.879
Ali: there's no, I found no meaning.

00:25:08.114 --> 00:25:08.234
Yeah.

00:25:08.294 --> 00:25:12.284
Other than it was a potentially a wake
up call to do things a bit better.

00:25:12.344 --> 00:25:12.464
Yeah.

00:25:12.609 --> 00:25:12.729
I

00:25:12.729 --> 00:25:14.324
Joe: But everything is humming.

00:25:14.324 --> 00:25:15.344
Opportunity to rebuild.

00:25:15.344 --> 00:25:15.434
Yeah.

00:25:15.434 --> 00:25:16.424
An opportunity to rebuild.

00:25:16.424 --> 00:25:18.104
Everything is humming with meaning.

00:25:18.109 --> 00:25:20.114
When you're in psychosis,
what's lacking That's true.

00:25:20.114 --> 00:25:23.074
Is logical thought, but
there's no lack of meaning.

00:25:23.314 --> 00:25:24.304
Sam: Well, but that's just it.

00:25:24.304 --> 00:25:27.814
I think Ally's not asking for everything
to be imbued with meaning at all times.

00:25:27.814 --> 00:25:27.874
No.

00:25:27.874 --> 00:25:29.649
So I think she's happy to settle
for It can't function like that.

00:25:29.654 --> 00:25:30.244
Like a degree of

00:25:30.244 --> 00:25:31.714
Joe: mundanity end up in hospital.

00:25:31.714 --> 00:25:32.134
No one can

00:25:32.134 --> 00:25:33.094
Sam: function like that.

00:25:33.154 --> 00:25:33.274
Yeah.

00:25:33.274 --> 00:25:35.524
But she's not asking for like
everything to feel profound.

00:25:35.614 --> 00:25:35.824
No.

00:25:35.824 --> 00:25:37.684
She just wants to get more done.

00:25:37.964 --> 00:25:38.594
Yes.

00:25:38.624 --> 00:25:39.854
Ali: Yeah, . I really do.

00:25:40.514 --> 00:25:43.574
There's thing, there's an enormous,
like, you know, people, you know, I see

00:25:43.574 --> 00:25:47.684
people suffer when they retire because
there's a lack of, oh yeah, that sucks.

00:25:47.684 --> 00:25:47.894
You know?

00:25:48.044 --> 00:25:52.664
Whereas I cannot wait because there
is not enough time in my day Yes.

00:25:52.934 --> 00:25:53.806
To do the things I already do.

00:25:53.811 --> 00:25:54.799
You've already planned your retirement.

00:25:54.949 --> 00:25:57.734
I've already, I've, I would have,
I know that feeling would happily

00:25:57.739 --> 00:26:00.464
not work another day in my life
because I could fill my days.

00:26:00.694 --> 00:26:02.494
Easily.

00:26:02.494 --> 00:26:05.974
Easily with the things I want to do
with my life that are not work related.

00:26:06.534 --> 00:26:10.030
And that's why I'm totally resentful
of the fact that I have to work because

00:26:10.030 --> 00:26:14.984
I'd be in my garden, I'd be reading,
I'd be reading all the books, I'd be

00:26:14.984 --> 00:26:18.874
making all the things, I'd be snapping.

00:26:18.874 --> 00:26:19.604
Yeah, exactly.

00:26:19.734 --> 00:26:24.174
But I'd be working in a way that felt
valuable to the way I want to live

00:26:24.174 --> 00:26:28.344
my life, which is just not conducive,
you know, to a capitalist life.

00:26:29.074 --> 00:26:29.594
Sam: That's right.

00:26:29.634 --> 00:26:29.924
Yeah.

00:26:30.024 --> 00:26:31.894
You'd be making clothes,
you'd be baking bread.

00:26:31.934 --> 00:26:32.664
Absolutely.

00:26:32.694 --> 00:26:33.234
Doing all that

00:26:33.284 --> 00:26:33.914
Ali: cool stuff.

00:26:33.974 --> 00:26:34.374
Yeah.

00:26:35.034 --> 00:26:35.914
Homestead in the northern

00:26:35.964 --> 00:26:36.444
Joe: suburbs.

00:26:36.444 --> 00:26:38.204
That's how you feel and that's
what you're looking forward to.

00:26:38.284 --> 00:26:39.054
Absolutely.

00:26:39.074 --> 00:26:39.244
Yeah.

00:26:39.244 --> 00:26:39.974
You're fine then.

00:26:40.114 --> 00:26:40.464
Yeah.

00:26:40.594 --> 00:26:42.894
And when I worked on the psych
ward, they'd just be like,

00:26:42.894 --> 00:26:44.374
oh, people are future focused.

00:26:44.394 --> 00:26:45.294
That's the term they always use.

00:26:45.734 --> 00:26:46.584
They're future focused.

00:26:46.644 --> 00:26:47.874
I would say that's fucked.

00:26:47.884 --> 00:26:51.364
Like that's, you've stepped out of the
present moment and you're now living in

00:26:51.364 --> 00:26:52.402
Sam: something that doesn't

00:26:52.402 --> 00:26:53.019
Joe: exist.

00:26:53.019 --> 00:26:56.474
But basically the psych system
wanted to get people future focused.

00:26:56.824 --> 00:26:59.664
So as long as you're thinking, oh,
I can work 20 more years in my dead

00:26:59.664 --> 00:27:00.484
end job and then I'll get to...

00:27:00.494 --> 00:27:00.774
No, so

00:27:00.824 --> 00:27:02.334
Ali: I'm not, this is, for me it

00:27:02.494 --> 00:27:02.654
Joe: feels like...

00:27:02.654 --> 00:27:04.604
To me that's like, oh my God, I've fallen

00:27:04.604 --> 00:27:04.874
Sam: for the...

00:27:04.904 --> 00:27:08.384
No, Ali's been thoroughly red pilled
in the traditional sense, but yeah.

00:27:08.474 --> 00:27:12.404
Ali: Yeah, no, I feel like it's very
much, I'm not going to get to do that.

00:27:12.864 --> 00:27:14.094
I'm not going to live
long enough to do it.

00:27:14.474 --> 00:27:16.214
And I'm, I'm annoyed with that.

00:27:16.454 --> 00:27:17.744
So it's like, well, what's the point?

00:27:17.834 --> 00:27:20.534
And I feel like there's a lot
of things I'm not starting

00:27:21.444 --> 00:27:22.644
Joe: because that's making you tired.

00:27:22.674 --> 00:27:24.389
The illusion of your imminent death.

00:27:24.474 --> 00:27:24.744
Yeah,

00:27:24.744 --> 00:27:27.324
Ali: because like for, I mean, I've
never, I would say more therapy needed.

00:27:27.534 --> 00:27:31.584
I'm not a, I've never been
like a well person physically.

00:27:31.584 --> 00:27:33.444
I've always, there's always been,
there's always something going on.

00:27:33.444 --> 00:27:35.964
And I just feel like even when
you were like a teenager, you

00:27:35.964 --> 00:27:36.954
had Yeah, there was stuff.

00:27:36.954 --> 00:27:40.429
And I just feel like I was never, I've
always had this feeling, I'm never, you've

00:27:40.434 --> 00:27:41.484
always resented your body, haven't you?

00:27:41.489 --> 00:27:41.694
Yes.

00:27:41.694 --> 00:27:43.044
And I'm not gonna make old bones.

00:27:43.074 --> 00:27:43.644
I've just never.

00:27:44.289 --> 00:27:47.149
See myself living to old age.

00:27:47.159 --> 00:27:48.354
I don't, I just, I don't know.

00:27:48.714 --> 00:27:50.754
It doesn't feel, it just
doesn't feel like it's...

00:27:50.764 --> 00:27:51.154
See, now you're

00:27:51.154 --> 00:27:51.294
Sam: being superstitious.

00:27:51.304 --> 00:27:51.644
Yeah, but you

00:27:51.644 --> 00:27:54.154
Joe: also have the mind that
thought your son was dead.

00:27:54.754 --> 00:27:55.164
Yeah, no, but...

00:27:55.204 --> 00:27:59.854
So your mind is like one of the
worst things to like base reality on.

00:27:59.904 --> 00:27:59.984
I

00:28:00.054 --> 00:28:02.364
Ali: don't, yeah, like I said, that's,
it's not a rational thought, like I

00:28:02.364 --> 00:28:03.734
have absolutely no evidence for that.

00:28:04.124 --> 00:28:04.624
Other than...

00:28:04.624 --> 00:28:05.594
But when you left rational thought...

00:28:05.594 --> 00:28:06.444
The feeling in the bones.

00:28:06.454 --> 00:28:08.744
Yeah, the feeling in the bones,
but they're just not made for...

00:28:08.744 --> 00:28:12.374
Joe: But when you convinced that your
son was dead, you weren't curious after,

00:28:12.374 --> 00:28:14.044
like, what was the meaning of that?

00:28:14.084 --> 00:28:14.741
Or you weren't...

00:28:14.741 --> 00:28:14.818
No.

00:28:14.818 --> 00:28:17.164
You haven't been curious about
that time that you left...

00:28:17.164 --> 00:28:18.184
Have you talked about it in therapy?

00:28:18.184 --> 00:28:18.329
No.

00:28:19.109 --> 00:28:21.139
But you left rational thought
and came back and was like, Oh,

00:28:21.169 --> 00:28:22.349
that was just a lack of sleep.

00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:24.709
It's like, Oh no, you access

00:28:25.069 --> 00:28:25.699
Sam: another reality.

00:28:25.699 --> 00:28:28.019
I think there's a strong, there's
a strong man going on here though.

00:28:28.199 --> 00:28:32.679
I just, look, I agree that the details
of psychosis can be revealing a

00:28:32.689 --> 00:28:36.109
diagnostic and therapeutic and like
we can, it's much deeper than that.

00:28:36.159 --> 00:28:36.429
No,

00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:40.959
Joe: same as, same as an
LSD trip is much deeper than

00:28:41.809 --> 00:28:42.709
Sam: what you saw.

00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:43.209
I don't know.

00:28:43.289 --> 00:28:43.759
Maybe it is.

00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:44.369
Ali: Maybe it isn't.

00:28:44.479 --> 00:28:44.929
I don't know.

00:28:44.929 --> 00:28:47.449
I, there's stuff I've seen like
on drugs that I just think there

00:28:47.449 --> 00:28:50.819
was absolutely, there was nothing
meaningful about not seeing my face in

00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:52.669
a fucking mirror for like six hours.

00:28:53.069 --> 00:28:54.119
That was, it was horrible.

00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:56.447
It was like 15, really not
well prepared for that.

00:28:56.447 --> 00:28:57.286
I mean, when

00:28:57.286 --> 00:28:59.241
Joe: I say cool, I mean star studded.

00:28:59.241 --> 00:29:03.039
It shows you that the way you
perceive reality without taking acid

00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:07.219
is just a filtering process that
presents something that makes some

00:29:07.219 --> 00:29:08.739
sense, but it's not actually true.

00:29:08.749 --> 00:29:08.919
No,

00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:10.669
Ali: but the overwhelming feeling I had.

00:29:10.669 --> 00:29:10.949
Because if your

00:29:10.949 --> 00:29:12.919
Joe: face wasn't in the mirror,
then it wasn't in the mirror.

00:29:13.694 --> 00:29:16.014
So it's only perception,
there's no objective

00:29:16.204 --> 00:29:16.554
Ali: reality.

00:29:16.914 --> 00:29:21.504
The overwhelming feeling I had when
I looked in the mirror was that I'm

00:29:21.504 --> 00:29:25.354
going to be in so much trouble with
my parents because I've lost my face.

00:29:25.484 --> 00:29:25.734
Wow.

00:29:25.884 --> 00:29:27.104
That was what it was.

00:29:27.894 --> 00:29:30.783
Sam: But what I'm saying is
that you had lost your face.

00:29:30.783 --> 00:29:31.319
Joe: If you

00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:32.658
Sam: went home without a face,

00:29:32.658 --> 00:29:33.461
Joe: you would be...

00:29:33.461 --> 00:29:35.336
What the fuck was going on, Ali?

00:29:35.336 --> 00:29:35.604
I'd

00:29:35.604 --> 00:29:37.747
Ali: just taken some
mushrooms and that was the...

00:29:37.747 --> 00:29:39.964
Joe: And where was your
face in that reality?

00:29:40.534 --> 00:29:41.459
Where was it?

00:29:41.809 --> 00:29:42.619
Where was it?

00:29:42.949 --> 00:29:46.209
Reality is not the day to day
reality that everyone functions

00:29:46.209 --> 00:29:46.229
Sam: on.

00:29:46.229 --> 00:29:48.509
Well Joe, you know, I lost my
face without taking shrooms.

00:29:49.314 --> 00:29:52.974
I was working at the National Hotel in
Geelong, and this was, this was a good

00:29:52.974 --> 00:29:56.224
time to have a breakdown, and I almost
did it, but I didn't, because I'd already

00:29:56.224 --> 00:29:59.584
had one before, and I was able to kind
of figure it out, and step around it,

00:30:00.314 --> 00:30:03.904
but like, because yeah, I was working
by myself in this, and I was living by

00:30:03.904 --> 00:30:07.404
myself up above this pub, and I was doing
the six nights, and Yeah, it wasn't good.

00:30:07.504 --> 00:30:11.564
I actually, at one point, I had three
jobs, saving money to go to India.

00:30:12.534 --> 00:30:16.534
And yeah, you know, a little
too much drinking and not enough

00:30:16.534 --> 00:30:17.854
sleep and all that going on.

00:30:17.904 --> 00:30:20.724
But then one night, I think it
was like a Monday night, and

00:30:20.724 --> 00:30:21.794
I let myself out of the pub.

00:30:22.224 --> 00:30:24.314
It was closed and I had to go out
and get some food or something.

00:30:24.664 --> 00:30:29.974
And then I caught my face in like
a mirror, like just kind of on

00:30:29.974 --> 00:30:32.314
the edge of the stairs, like an
old ornamental, you know, anyway.

00:30:33.334 --> 00:30:35.404
And like the mirror was in sections, so.

00:30:35.834 --> 00:30:40.484
Already the self was fractured,
but I was like, I don't

00:30:40.504 --> 00:30:41.764
recognize this person at all.

00:30:41.764 --> 00:30:44.534
And then I was like looking
at it longer and I was like.

00:30:45.239 --> 00:30:48.809
There, there was no face, like,
yeah, yeah, it's pretty strange,

00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:49.746
Ali: but it's a strange feeling.

00:30:49.746 --> 00:30:52.189
It was a strange feeling, but
then like, yeah, it wore off and

00:30:52.189 --> 00:30:55.199
then I was like, Oh, thank God I'm
not in trouble with my character.

00:30:55.199 --> 00:30:56.209
Sam: I will put it to you.

00:30:56.209 --> 00:30:57.676
Cause you would have
been in so much trouble.

00:30:57.676 --> 00:30:58.165
I would have

00:30:58.165 --> 00:30:59.709
Ali: been in so much
trouble for losing my face.

00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:00.779
Sam: Where did you put your face?

00:31:00.984 --> 00:31:02.054
Ali: Come on, just retrace your steps.

00:31:02.154 --> 00:31:03.664
This is just another thing you fucked up.

00:31:03.824 --> 00:31:04.594
Yeah, that is so

00:31:04.594 --> 00:31:04.774
Joe: good.

00:31:04.774 --> 00:31:07.494
That's just the amusing
way you processed it.

00:31:07.494 --> 00:31:09.514
But what happened is No, there's
meaning in these remarks.

00:31:09.514 --> 00:31:10.894
It points to something extraordinary.

00:31:10.944 --> 00:31:11.194
No, I

00:31:11.294 --> 00:31:12.774
Sam: think you have a
deep sense of failure.

00:31:12.804 --> 00:31:13.544
It points to something

00:31:13.874 --> 00:31:17.104
Joe: extraordinary, which is that
consensual reality that we all

00:31:17.124 --> 00:31:21.294
agree on so that we can function
together is only one reality.

00:31:21.354 --> 00:31:21.514
Okay.

00:31:21.654 --> 00:31:24.864
When you step outside it
through drug experiences or

00:31:24.864 --> 00:31:26.074
psychosis or whatever, you don't.

00:31:26.944 --> 00:31:30.794
Uh, you're not in some fake reality,
you're not, you're just in a different

00:31:30.794 --> 00:31:31.074
Sam: reality.

00:31:31.074 --> 00:31:31.564
Okay, okay.

00:31:31.604 --> 00:31:32.834
But we don't need to get too far out.

00:31:32.834 --> 00:31:36.534
Like, I, I, I agree that there's some
truth in all of that, but like, to

00:31:36.534 --> 00:31:38.564
me, it's therapeutically revealing.

00:31:38.733 --> 00:31:41.243
My face is gone, but my first
thought is I'm going to be in

00:31:41.243 --> 00:31:42.563
trouble for losing my face.

00:31:42.643 --> 00:31:44.843
And then like with, and who, with who?

00:31:44.843 --> 00:31:45.093
Ali: Yes.

00:31:45.113 --> 00:31:45.263
Exactly.

00:31:45.673 --> 00:31:48.413
And that was, and like,
this is therapy stuff.

00:31:48.443 --> 00:31:48.603
Yeah.

00:31:48.663 --> 00:31:50.183
That is very much therapy stuff in that.

00:31:50.183 --> 00:31:53.363
Like that, that would have been a
very, like disappointing my family.

00:31:53.783 --> 00:31:54.433
That would have been a

00:31:54.433 --> 00:31:54.893
Joe: huge.

00:31:54.893 --> 00:31:55.733
You missed the point.

00:31:55.998 --> 00:31:58.888
This is Pat, no, I think the point,
you missed the point about, I think

00:31:59.128 --> 00:32:01.298
Sam: you have a deep fear of failure
and of not living up to other people's

00:32:01.558 --> 00:32:02.998
expectations, their faith wasn't there.

00:32:03.723 --> 00:32:04.793
Oh, but think about what that could mean.

00:32:04.793 --> 00:32:05.283
That wasn't an illusion.

00:32:05.293 --> 00:32:06.813
No, but analyze the symbolism of it.

00:32:06.813 --> 00:32:08.053
That wasn't an illusion.

00:32:08.533 --> 00:32:09.843
I didn't say it was an illusion.

00:32:10.433 --> 00:32:14.393
Joe: So we're both agreeing that
reality is much more mutable than

00:32:14.393 --> 00:32:16.753
Sam: our reality The brain
was experiencing that.

00:32:17.393 --> 00:32:20.023
Like, that was what was
happening in the consciousness.

00:32:20.023 --> 00:32:21.213
Things are not as

00:32:21.213 --> 00:32:23.683
Joe: solid as people assume
in day to day reality.

00:32:24.063 --> 00:32:24.313
Sam: Right.

00:32:24.313 --> 00:32:24.963
They're just not.

00:32:25.063 --> 00:32:27.713
I'm pointing to the thin
sliver of reality as well.

00:32:27.763 --> 00:32:29.223
I'm just not as determined.

00:32:32.893 --> 00:32:36.113
I mean, look, we can probably meet in
the middle here somewhere, but I tend

00:32:36.113 --> 00:32:40.363
to think the profound lesson was already
there in like this experience of losing

00:32:40.363 --> 00:32:47.073
the self, really, and, and going, I'm
actually, but the self still exists and

00:32:47.073 --> 00:32:48.842
will get in trouble for losing the self.

00:32:49.223 --> 00:32:49.673
To self.

00:32:49.673 --> 00:32:50.783
It's So who are you anyway?

00:32:50.783 --> 00:32:51.893
Like that's what's going on there.

00:32:51.893 --> 00:32:53.093
And how old are you at that point?

00:32:53.153 --> 00:32:54.263
Like, I'm 15, 16.

00:32:54.263 --> 00:32:54.323
Yeah.

00:32:54.563 --> 00:32:56.723
That's the perfect time to be
asking those questions anyway.

00:32:56.813 --> 00:32:56.873
Yeah.

00:32:56.999 --> 00:32:59.039
Especially with a, with
a, a hard background.

00:32:59.159 --> 00:33:03.389
And then fast forward to 37, did you say?

00:33:03.449 --> 00:33:03.659
Yeah.

00:33:03.659 --> 00:33:03.929
It was

00:33:03.929 --> 00:33:05.129
Ali: 36, 37 when?

00:33:05.129 --> 00:33:06.644
No, 37 when I had, know what I mean?

00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:06.989
Yeah.

00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:07.799
Had my breakdown.

00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:07.949
Sam: Yeah.

00:33:07.949 --> 00:33:11.729
And that's a really great time of
life to start feeling a shit load

00:33:11.729 --> 00:33:13.559
of pressure to be more than you are.

00:33:13.679 --> 00:33:14.009
Yes.

00:33:14.514 --> 00:33:19.624
Ali: So, yeah, and very much so
like, and watching, yeah, people

00:33:19.624 --> 00:33:23.334
who have, you know, done things in a
very different way to how I did them.

00:33:23.424 --> 00:33:26.984
Like I had baby quite young and did
things, you know, the wrong way around.

00:33:26.984 --> 00:33:30.464
I'd had, you know, failed relationships,
did not follow the script.

00:33:30.464 --> 00:33:30.524
She

00:33:30.644 --> 00:33:32.114
Joe: just said wrong, the wrong way.

00:33:32.144 --> 00:33:33.104
Yeah, I know, it's very

00:33:33.274 --> 00:33:33.954
Ali: revealing too.

00:33:34.484 --> 00:33:35.464
Well, yeah, well, exactly.

00:33:35.474 --> 00:33:36.394
Like that's, that's the thing.

00:33:36.394 --> 00:33:36.624
I,

00:33:36.844 --> 00:33:39.634
Sam: you said that in a self
aware way, but she is, I agree.

00:33:40.029 --> 00:33:40.179
Yeah.

00:33:41.719 --> 00:33:42.159
I'm taking

00:33:42.159 --> 00:33:42.499
Ali: notes.

00:33:42.579 --> 00:33:42.749
Yeah.

00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:43.549
No, yeah.

00:33:43.549 --> 00:33:48.099
Like I, I, it was, I'd perceived it to be
the wrong way around or done things, you

00:33:48.099 --> 00:33:52.319
know, you know, have made choices that
were not, yeah, things didn't work out

00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.579
the way I'd imagined them to for myself.

00:33:54.579 --> 00:33:59.049
That's a thing a lot of people
struggle with in that the imagined

00:33:59.049 --> 00:34:00.099
future they had for themselves.

00:34:00.099 --> 00:34:05.299
And I think given my upbringing,
given my, I suppose, natural

00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:06.609
aptitudes and things like.

00:34:06.869 --> 00:34:11.059
That my goals were really
lofty, really lofty.

00:34:11.763 --> 00:34:17.643
and probably all sorts of completely
unrealistic, but, um, but really lofty.

00:34:17.643 --> 00:34:20.603
And I, I, yeah, obviously
had not reached them in a

00:34:20.603 --> 00:34:20.863
Sam: lot.

00:34:21.273 --> 00:34:24.103
I guarantee you, if we compared
notes about early twenties, they'd be

00:34:24.123 --> 00:34:26.003
similar, like the loftiness would be

00:34:26.663 --> 00:34:27.063
Ali: similar.

00:34:27.073 --> 00:34:27.333
Yeah.

00:34:27.373 --> 00:34:31.993
I was going to do great
things and I'd been told.

00:34:32.598 --> 00:34:37.118
You can do really great things because,
you know, and I had a lot of results and

00:34:37.118 --> 00:34:41.738
things from school and Reinforcements
showing me I could do really great.

00:34:41.738 --> 00:34:43.058
There was a degree of
evidence to suggest this.

00:34:43.068 --> 00:34:45.558
Yeah, so there was everything was
sort of like, okay, this, this

00:34:45.558 --> 00:34:47.118
is the path, these, you know, and

00:34:47.728 --> 00:34:50.668
Joe: And you didn't know the whole
time that actually you're a mystic.

00:34:51.163 --> 00:34:52.933
But you're just not curious about it.

00:34:54.433 --> 00:34:58.063
So you've been trying to make things
work on the plane of consensual reality,

00:34:58.063 --> 00:34:59.893
which is not where you function.

00:34:59.893 --> 00:35:03.163
Sam: But we also have to remain social
beings, as we said in the last episode,

00:35:03.163 --> 00:35:08.143
and like unfortunately, we have to live
in the consensual reality as well as it's

00:35:08.143 --> 00:35:08.803
Joe: functional.

00:35:08.803 --> 00:35:10.723
But if we, if we take it to be.

00:35:11.098 --> 00:35:13.558
All encompassing, then we
suffer, and we suffer as

00:35:13.558 --> 00:35:15.598
neurodivergent people particularly.

00:35:15.718 --> 00:35:21.218
Oh, and also it's not, well, our
experience is not a consistent reality

00:35:21.218 --> 00:35:22.378
that everyone else can agree on.

00:35:22.378 --> 00:35:24.148
And that's not your organic experience.

00:35:24.178 --> 00:35:24.788
And we can also

00:35:24.838 --> 00:35:25.868
Sam: affront drugs or no drugs.

00:35:25.878 --> 00:35:26.198
That's right.

00:35:26.198 --> 00:35:28.868
And we can also affront that
reality by doing things.

00:35:29.168 --> 00:35:32.478
We can contest that reality and we do,
everyone contests it and reinforces it

00:35:32.488 --> 00:35:34.148
in different ways at all, at all moments.

00:35:34.238 --> 00:35:37.078
And one of the ways of contesting the
consensual reality is to have a breakdown.

00:35:37.328 --> 00:35:38.468
It's a great rejection of it.

00:35:38.469 --> 00:35:39.528
And,

00:35:39.528 --> 00:35:42.418
Joe: but I would say maybe you haven't
been curious enough about what it means.

00:35:43.088 --> 00:35:47.028
Ali: I just don't feel the
need to ascribe meaning to it.

00:35:48.268 --> 00:35:50.048
Well, I think, yeah, go on.

00:35:50.228 --> 00:35:50.528
Yeah.

00:35:50.528 --> 00:35:56.802
I just, I, I don't, I've just never felt
like outside of any, you know, medical.

00:35:57.627 --> 00:36:02.357
Explanation for what happened, which,
you know, there is an explanation that

00:36:02.357 --> 00:36:09.317
that was more than enough to satisfy my
interest in what happened and everything

00:36:09.377 --> 00:36:14.727
outside of that was then about, okay,
well, this happened, what do I do now?

00:36:15.017 --> 00:36:16.397
And then how do I put it back together?

00:36:16.677 --> 00:36:18.157
What do I need to do with my life?

00:36:18.157 --> 00:36:21.137
What do I, how do, you know, therapy,
medication, whatever it is, you

00:36:21.137 --> 00:36:23.907
know, these are the things I need to
be focusing on structure, routine,

00:36:24.427 --> 00:36:26.127
things that, yeah, like, and.

00:36:26.627 --> 00:36:31.347
And getting back, you know, to a place
that's healthy and that wasn't, yeah,

00:36:31.347 --> 00:36:36.507
like I said, the motivation was, yeah,
again, I suppose more towards getting

00:36:36.507 --> 00:36:40.497
back into the swing of things, or at
least into a life that I had imagined

00:36:40.507 --> 00:36:42.257
for myself that I would be happy with.

00:36:43.007 --> 00:36:48.077
And yeah, like for the most part, you
know, I am it's, it's, and so, yeah,

00:36:48.077 --> 00:36:52.877
I just never felt the need to have a
greater understanding of what I went

00:36:52.877 --> 00:36:55.927
through other than like, Oh, it was
just a thing in the same way that I,

00:36:56.347 --> 00:36:59.957
if I broke a bone, no, I really do.

00:36:59.957 --> 00:37:02.697
I think like, you know, like
something happens medically.

00:37:03.157 --> 00:37:05.287
To you, it's the same,
you know, sore back.

00:37:05.287 --> 00:37:06.922
Like I don't feel like broken
your bone doesn't take you into

00:37:06.922 --> 00:37:07.802
Joe: the the altered reality.

00:37:07.862 --> 00:37:08.082
I'm

00:37:08.082 --> 00:37:09.847
Ali: gonna have to, but
obviously I disagree.

00:37:09.847 --> 00:37:10.642
Go aside a little bit with that.

00:37:10.747 --> 00:37:13.537
Like I've had, you know, been
dealing with some chronic pain Yeah.

00:37:13.537 --> 00:37:14.377
With a back injury.

00:37:14.617 --> 00:37:14.707
Mm-Hmm.

00:37:14.767 --> 00:37:16.522
And that absolutely
can mind altering Yeah.

00:37:16.657 --> 00:37:19.807
Can take you to a place
of altered reality and.

00:37:20.267 --> 00:37:23.457
Thinking that, you know, extreme
pain really can alter your thinking.

00:37:23.497 --> 00:37:24.707
Have you had some ECT

00:37:24.707 --> 00:37:25.137
Sam: or any

00:37:25.137 --> 00:37:25.607
Ali: of that?

00:37:25.867 --> 00:37:26.687
No, I haven't.

00:37:26.717 --> 00:37:28.247
No, I've had a friend who had that.

00:37:28.257 --> 00:37:29.617
It was really successful for him.

00:37:29.627 --> 00:37:34.247
But, um, but yeah, no, I just, so for,
for chronic pain, I think, but again,

00:37:34.247 --> 00:37:36.097
I don't describe any meaning to it.

00:37:36.137 --> 00:37:37.487
Like it's just a shit thing.

00:37:37.487 --> 00:37:38.797
That's, I have to deal with.

00:37:40.587 --> 00:37:42.777
Joe: You think that you haven't
recovered, but actually you've,

00:37:42.867 --> 00:37:44.227
you focused on getting on with it.

00:37:44.247 --> 00:37:45.757
You're good enough and
you're getting on with it.

00:37:46.012 --> 00:37:48.822
Ali: Yeah, oh yeah, like, I mean,
highly functional, I've been

00:37:48.822 --> 00:37:51.402
Joe: in work for years, you know,
maybe you're missing the depth.

00:37:52.062 --> 00:37:55.022
of something quite profound
that's all around you.

00:37:55.062 --> 00:37:55.272
No,

00:37:55.282 --> 00:37:58.042
Ali: I, I, well, the thing
I miss is the energy.

00:37:58.052 --> 00:38:01.482
That's what I, like, that's the thing I
think I miss is this energy that I feel

00:38:01.482 --> 00:38:06.062
like that I had, which maybe I did, maybe
I didn't have it as much as I remember it

00:38:06.062 --> 00:38:08.602
to be, but at least it, I definitely feel

00:38:08.602 --> 00:38:09.062
Joe: lower on energy.

00:38:09.062 --> 00:38:13.912
So what I'm saying is maybe be, don't
worry about doing more stuff, maybe lean

00:38:13.912 --> 00:38:16.242
more into reflection and contemplation.

00:38:16.442 --> 00:38:16.722
Sure,

00:38:16.992 --> 00:38:19.812
Sam: but can I, sure, look, you
might be right in the long run.

00:38:20.367 --> 00:38:21.287
But I would prefer

00:38:21.287 --> 00:38:22.277
Joe: to take the...

00:38:22.287 --> 00:38:24.747
Especially if you agree
that you're now entering the

00:38:24.787 --> 00:38:26.147
contraction phase of your life.

00:38:26.277 --> 00:38:26.607
Yeah.

00:38:26.607 --> 00:38:30.107
So you need to start understanding your
non existence, which is a good place

00:38:30.147 --> 00:38:32.627
to enter some more deeper thinking.

00:38:32.967 --> 00:38:35.257
Sam: And parenting is going to shift
your priorities as well, and all

00:38:35.417 --> 00:38:36.287
sorts of things are going to happen.

00:38:36.287 --> 00:38:38.957
But, like, regardless of
breakdowns occurring or not, but...

00:38:39.857 --> 00:38:43.487
And the, the, you know, the growing
understanding and sort of intimacy

00:38:43.487 --> 00:38:45.077
with mortality and all of that.

00:38:45.077 --> 00:38:47.087
But I think that goes back
a long way with you though.

00:38:47.177 --> 00:38:47.357
Mm-Hmm.

00:38:47.417 --> 00:38:48.587
Like there's not a new thing.

00:38:48.592 --> 00:38:49.187
No intonations of

00:38:49.187 --> 00:38:49.667
Ali: mortality.

00:38:49.667 --> 00:38:51.652
I think it's something you've been No,
that's something I've been thinking about

00:38:51.657 --> 00:38:53.057
my whole life, living with for a long

00:38:53.057 --> 00:38:53.477
Sam: time.

00:38:53.477 --> 00:38:53.957
Yeah.

00:38:53.957 --> 00:38:53.958
Yeah.

00:38:53.958 --> 00:38:53.959
Yeah.

00:38:53.959 --> 00:38:53.960
And.

00:38:54.607 --> 00:38:56.697
If anything, I think middle age
will actually provide a degree

00:38:56.697 --> 00:38:58.307
of relief from a lot of that.

00:38:58.637 --> 00:39:02.257
Um, so, but what I'm interested in though,
I want to take the patient's own words

00:39:02.257 --> 00:39:06.327
and the patient's own state, stated goals,
which are quite modest, I think, and I

00:39:06.327 --> 00:39:11.467
want to work with those a little bit,
which is, I just want, maybe I'm wrong.

00:39:11.477 --> 00:39:14.557
Maybe those energy levels, I'm
overstating it, but you feel

00:39:14.557 --> 00:39:15.617
that they could be better.

00:39:16.207 --> 00:39:16.587
Okay.

00:39:16.647 --> 00:39:19.337
I mean, that's, I think that's
a reasonable starting point.

00:39:19.347 --> 00:39:23.767
Now, how, how you pursue that, it
could end up where Joe's talking.

00:39:24.247 --> 00:39:25.077
Contemplation.

00:39:25.107 --> 00:39:29.672
So yeah, maybe a commitment to meditation
could do wonders in this situation.

00:39:29.726 --> 00:39:31.656
equally, I do think that the...

00:39:32.121 --> 00:39:35.731
I'm agreeing with Joe, the episodic
details I think might be interesting

00:39:35.791 --> 00:39:39.941
and the dealing with the mortality of
the child I think will be an interesting

00:39:39.941 --> 00:39:44.321
one to talk about in therapy and
also connecting that with your own

00:39:44.321 --> 00:39:46.721
feeling of mortality earlier in life.

00:39:47.511 --> 00:39:51.381
And there's some dots that
need joining, I think.

00:39:51.701 --> 00:39:53.411
And, but something is sapping your energy.

00:39:53.411 --> 00:39:54.621
I think that's probably true.

00:39:55.041 --> 00:39:57.581
And it might be unmet
expectations within yourself.

00:39:57.611 --> 00:39:58.991
It might be ones that
are still coming from

00:39:58.991 --> 00:39:59.521
Ali: without.

00:40:00.491 --> 00:40:01.781
It's so easy just to blame.

00:40:01.781 --> 00:40:02.371
Oh, it's work.

00:40:02.421 --> 00:40:03.791
Cause that's what I would attribute it to.

00:40:03.791 --> 00:40:04.951
It's a good thing to blame.

00:40:05.191 --> 00:40:05.431
Yeah.

00:40:05.431 --> 00:40:07.501
I mean, it doesn't, it's
certainly not helping.

00:40:07.501 --> 00:40:07.991
You're not wrong.

00:40:08.001 --> 00:40:10.621
You know, I don't think it, it
certainly doesn't help, but like

00:40:10.621 --> 00:40:12.101
I, it is mentally fatiguing.

00:40:12.121 --> 00:40:12.471
There is.

00:40:12.511 --> 00:40:12.771
Yeah.

00:40:13.326 --> 00:40:17.166
There is something, yeah, that is
sapping my energy or just taking

00:40:17.166 --> 00:40:18.626
up an awful lot of that bandwidth.

00:40:19.306 --> 00:40:19.876
Joe: More than once.

00:40:19.886 --> 00:40:22.266
I think you might have had a
bit of a higher calling and a

00:40:22.266 --> 00:40:25.286
bit of a deeper calling and you
maybe have hung up the phone too

00:40:25.286 --> 00:40:26.546
Sam: soon.

00:40:26.546 --> 00:40:26.906
I don't know.

00:40:26.906 --> 00:40:27.946
I think doing this is...

00:40:27.946 --> 00:40:30.946
Joe: Because being functional at
work and functional as a mum and

00:40:30.946 --> 00:40:35.986
functional in relationships is fine,
but it's not the whole enchilada.

00:40:36.036 --> 00:40:39.166
There's a lot more to reality
and consciousness than that.

00:40:39.376 --> 00:40:39.616
Sure.

00:40:39.616 --> 00:40:39.736
I

00:40:39.736 --> 00:40:40.036
Sam: agree.

00:40:40.571 --> 00:40:42.951
I would say by the same token,
I think everyone has that higher

00:40:42.951 --> 00:40:44.751
calling to some degree, like I agree.

00:40:44.771 --> 00:40:45.671
We've all got a role

00:40:45.671 --> 00:40:46.021
Joe: to play.

00:40:46.071 --> 00:40:49.791
But when it knocks you, when it
really rips you and throws you into

00:40:49.821 --> 00:40:51.841
hospital, it's like pay attention.

00:40:52.381 --> 00:40:53.171
No, indeed.

00:40:53.181 --> 00:40:53.251
It's

00:40:53.251 --> 00:40:54.231
Sam: the call to adventure.

00:40:55.216 --> 00:40:57.286
No, you know the T Rex
journey better than you said.

00:40:57.306 --> 00:40:58.866
Yeah, no, it is the call to adventure.

00:40:58.876 --> 00:41:01.956
And of course, the first thing is
we refuse the call to adventure.

00:41:01.956 --> 00:41:02.566
And like, that's what...

00:41:02.566 --> 00:41:03.636
Well, that's where Ali is now.

00:41:03.636 --> 00:41:04.736
And that's what therapy is all about.

00:41:04.756 --> 00:41:08.676
But the thing is, all of us
are refusing each adventure

00:41:08.676 --> 00:41:10.126
as it emerges in every moment.

00:41:10.186 --> 00:41:11.596
Like, like, it's not just...

00:41:11.946 --> 00:41:14.816
This one's happening and you and I,
well, we've gotten past the refusal.

00:41:14.836 --> 00:41:17.096
Well, no, there's a refusal
waiting for me later today.

00:41:17.616 --> 00:41:21.716
You know, like we have to face our own
refusal again and again and get past it.

00:41:21.716 --> 00:41:22.726
Like, I don't want to brush my teeth.

00:41:22.726 --> 00:41:23.866
I don't want to go to bed.

00:41:23.866 --> 00:41:24.386
I don't want to cut my

00:41:24.386 --> 00:41:26.686
Joe: nails.

00:41:26.686 --> 00:41:27.366
Sam: You and I know about that.

00:41:27.776 --> 00:41:29.636
Ali: It's the day to day.

00:41:30.666 --> 00:41:31.286
It's so

00:41:31.296 --> 00:41:31.706
Joe: hard.

00:41:31.706 --> 00:41:36.636
I'll say this Ali, like after my last
manic episode and psychosis, all I

00:41:36.636 --> 00:41:38.761
wanted to do Do was get back on my feet.

00:41:38.791 --> 00:41:39.211
Yes.

00:41:39.271 --> 00:41:39.361
Mm-Hmm.

00:41:39.481 --> 00:41:40.321
Get back to work.

00:41:40.351 --> 00:41:43.501
Ignore what had happened, go back
and work in the film industry and

00:41:43.501 --> 00:41:44.941
get my business back on its feet.

00:41:44.946 --> 00:41:45.346
Be yourself.

00:41:45.346 --> 00:41:46.951
And I did that and I was successful.

00:41:47.011 --> 00:41:47.281
Mm-Hmm.

00:41:47.521 --> 00:41:49.201
And it left me feeling flat.

00:41:49.411 --> 00:41:49.951
Mm-Hmm.

00:41:50.041 --> 00:41:53.791
And it's only when I
started meditating and Sure.

00:41:53.821 --> 00:41:57.481
Um, doing my addiction recovery
work and gaining a spiritual life

00:41:57.481 --> 00:42:01.802
was the only time that I started to
resolve some of this stuff that had.

00:42:02.646 --> 00:42:06.736
It happened in the psychosis and in
the mania and leading up to them and

00:42:06.736 --> 00:42:10.626
just trying, before that trying to be
functional and have a mortgage and have

00:42:10.626 --> 00:42:16.826
a business and be a dad and it was only
when I started to be slightly curious

00:42:16.826 --> 00:42:21.791
about a spiritual life was suddenly some
sustenance came into this part of me

00:42:21.791 --> 00:42:27.506
that was so thirsty, you know, it was
just so thirsty, it always had been.

00:42:27.896 --> 00:42:32.916
And it was only when I nourished it
with some spirituality that now I can

00:42:32.916 --> 00:42:37.496
understand my bipolar in a completely
different way and I can understand

00:42:37.496 --> 00:42:40.676
psychosis in a different way and I can
understand all those acid trips in a

00:42:40.676 --> 00:42:44.366
different way and all those mushroom
trips and the ketamine and all of that.

00:42:44.366 --> 00:42:44.801
But

00:42:44.801 --> 00:42:46.586
Sam: the meditation's been
better for you than all of that.

00:42:47.036 --> 00:42:49.576
Joe: The meditation, this
is the Ram Dass passes.

00:42:49.586 --> 00:42:52.636
You work out, you go to, you take the
elevator to the top of the mountain.

00:42:53.651 --> 00:42:57.941
And then you see something extraordinary
that's just so beautiful you

00:42:57.941 --> 00:43:00.331
can't believe it and everything's
resolved and it's all there.

00:43:00.686 --> 00:43:01.906
But then you come down.

00:43:02.256 --> 00:43:06.596
Meditation is what Ram Dass worked out
is the way to just trudge slowly up

00:43:06.596 --> 00:43:08.426
the side of that same exact mountain.

00:43:08.566 --> 00:43:08.866
Sure.

00:43:09.306 --> 00:43:13.206
Ali: So what you're saying is that
nourishing that spiritual side is that's

00:43:13.206 --> 00:43:14.906
the thing that's filling your cup up.

00:43:15.346 --> 00:43:19.926
And I can understand like you having
nothing to draw on and that was

00:43:19.926 --> 00:43:22.656
a big thing in like in therapy is
like it was making sure you have

00:43:22.656 --> 00:43:26.166
things that fill your cup up so
that you do have stuff to draw on.

00:43:26.176 --> 00:43:26.996
And I feel like.

00:43:28.036 --> 00:43:32.046
Whether the, maybe there's just
not enough that's filling me up.

00:43:32.046 --> 00:43:33.006
Cause I feel like your

00:43:33.006 --> 00:43:35.886
Joe: spirituality could be as
simple as a five hour bushwalk.

00:43:36.166 --> 00:43:36.546
Yes.

00:43:36.596 --> 00:43:39.606
And then people say, Oh, I just
felt like myself dropped away and

00:43:39.606 --> 00:43:41.006
I was just connected to everything.

00:43:41.186 --> 00:43:42.796
Ali: And that spirituality doesn't

00:43:42.886 --> 00:43:45.176
Joe: have to be, it doesn't
have to be a religious

00:43:45.206 --> 00:43:45.686
Ali: text.

00:43:45.696 --> 00:43:48.906
Yeah, no, that's, that's the,
those are the exact things that

00:43:48.906 --> 00:43:50.446
I've absolutely wanted to do.

00:43:50.446 --> 00:43:55.096
And we were told to like write down all
these things and a lot of them have been.

00:43:55.531 --> 00:43:59.241
That I had found that were really
helpful and for the last couple of years,

00:43:59.281 --> 00:44:04.091
obviously the physical side of things
has absolutely prohibited like most of

00:44:04.191 --> 00:44:05.771
my ability to be able to do those things.

00:44:05.991 --> 00:44:10.591
And so I'm not having enough to then draw
on to then be able to do the stuff I want.

00:44:10.591 --> 00:44:14.671
So there's this frustration of not
being able to do the hike, not being

00:44:14.681 --> 00:44:18.551
able to do the things that make me
feel good that, and that's where.

00:44:19.051 --> 00:44:21.351
And I feel like that's the
thing that's sapping my energy.

00:44:21.511 --> 00:44:23.251
Sam: I can't pull the
medicine down from the shelf.

00:44:23.251 --> 00:44:26.741
I know which one I need and I've
devised it myself for some reason.

00:44:26.791 --> 00:44:28.051
My body is betraying me.

00:44:28.081 --> 00:44:31.161
Something's getting in the way again
and again and we can psychoanalyse

00:44:31.181 --> 00:44:32.741
that and sometimes it's real things.

00:44:32.761 --> 00:44:36.661
You know, Adam frustrates me sometimes
because he won't allow me to bring...

00:44:37.081 --> 00:44:40.391
Like real and rational sort
of obstacles into the thing.

00:44:40.401 --> 00:44:43.741
He's like, yeah, well, they might or
might not be true I don't know but

00:44:43.741 --> 00:44:47.931
like what can we talk about like what
you know, what what's stopping you?

00:44:47.990 --> 00:44:50.650
This that and the other okay, but
what's inside you that's stopping you?

00:44:50.870 --> 00:44:51.740
Adam's your therapist?

00:44:51.790 --> 00:44:55.460
Yes, Adam's a therapist and I was gonna
say like that We don't talk about,

00:44:55.550 --> 00:45:00.960
Krishna's enough apparently on this
thing, but they talk about Uh, spiritual

00:45:01.030 --> 00:45:04.200
practices, watering the right plants
and just not watering the wrong ones.

00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:06.620
You know, it's like, it's gardening.

00:45:06.630 --> 00:45:08.460
It's cultivation is the metaphor they use.

00:45:08.540 --> 00:45:12.620
And so it occurred to me, I don't think
Ali's missing any of the ingredients

00:45:12.620 --> 00:45:15.090
or, uh, things here whatsoever.

00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:18.010
Like the things you were talking
about, like pre breakdown,

00:45:18.150 --> 00:45:20.170
some of it's further than.

00:45:20.525 --> 00:45:23.095
It needs to be maybe,
but like, what'd you say?

00:45:23.115 --> 00:45:26.065
The gardening, sourdough, these
are all productive creative

00:45:26.695 --> 00:45:26.995
Ali: acts.

00:45:27.325 --> 00:45:31.237
Yeah, like long sort of complicated
cooking and or preserving

00:45:31.237 --> 00:45:33.777
projects I found deeply cathartic.

00:45:34.147 --> 00:45:38.202
Like, like there is a Doing something
from scratch and having the struggle to

00:45:38.202 --> 00:45:42.852
do something from scratch, I find great
enjoyment and pleasure from whether it's

00:45:42.852 --> 00:45:48.332
gardening, cooking, hiking, things that
I've, you know, I, I feel like those are

00:45:48.332 --> 00:45:52.062
the things that have been, you know, and
like I said, for a variety of reasons,

00:45:52.152 --> 00:45:57.212
you know, physically, my body has not
been able to keep up the last few years.

00:45:57.222 --> 00:45:59.632
And so, and those things would have
been the things that normally would

00:45:59.632 --> 00:46:02.222
have actually then given me the
energy to then move on to, you know,

00:46:02.712 --> 00:46:07.575
and now I just want to, Get Uber
Eats and stay mad a lot of the time.

00:46:07.595 --> 00:46:10.065
Sam: Yeah, setting up, setting
up your base camp to go up

00:46:10.165 --> 00:46:13.385
the rest of, uh, Everest is,
yeah, sort of beyond you at the

00:46:13.385 --> 00:46:13.675
Ali: moment.

00:46:13.715 --> 00:46:14.515
Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:14.515 --> 00:46:14.765
Yeah.

00:46:14.765 --> 00:46:16.035
And it's, it's frustrating.

00:46:16.035 --> 00:46:17.165
It's a frustrating thing.

00:46:17.265 --> 00:46:17.575
Yeah.

00:46:17.795 --> 00:46:17.985
Sam: Yeah.

00:46:17.985 --> 00:46:21.185
And I was gonna say, I really vibe with
a lot of this cause like before that.

00:46:21.495 --> 00:46:24.885
You know, the 19 years old having
panic attacks and, you know, yeah,

00:46:24.965 --> 00:46:29.105
like a proper breakdown, but like
not as profound as that one at all.

00:46:29.198 --> 00:46:34.006
and I recovered much more quickly from
like the surface symptoms, getting

00:46:34.006 --> 00:46:36.766
things right in your life and doing
all the therapy that took longer.

00:46:36.766 --> 00:46:43.346
But the, I was reminded that I was
really going after it before that I

00:46:43.346 --> 00:46:46.306
was ambitious and I did things and.

00:46:46.981 --> 00:46:50.921
I planned things and followed through
on them a lot of the time and like

00:46:50.921 --> 00:46:53.645
more than, more than I might now.

00:46:53.708 --> 00:46:54.548
so like, yeah, you're right.

00:46:54.548 --> 00:46:56.828
I think that there's a dissatisfaction
here that we, I don't think

00:46:56.828 --> 00:46:58.628
we need to reject it entirely.

00:46:58.709 --> 00:47:01.239
yeah, but like, but that's like, I
have to go all the way back to my

00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:04.729
teenage years and I've had sort of
episodes since of like the thing

00:47:04.729 --> 00:47:06.429
you're just really going after it.

00:47:06.909 --> 00:47:10.533
After more than one thing and packing
a lot in, still get bursts of it

00:47:10.533 --> 00:47:10.933
Ali: now.

00:47:11.333 --> 00:47:17.163
Yes, I just, I haven't had the burst of
it for what feels like a really long time.

00:47:17.163 --> 00:47:17.643
Damn, that sucks.

00:47:17.713 --> 00:47:18.763
Yeah, it really sucks.

00:47:18.763 --> 00:47:21.498
Like, I know, like, You know, I've
joked with Joe a few times that

00:47:21.498 --> 00:47:25.068
like, God, I just would love for some
low key hypomania to get something

00:47:25.068 --> 00:47:27.658
done, so, that would be nice.

00:47:27.958 --> 00:47:28.598
I would say,

00:47:28.858 --> 00:47:28.968
Sam: yeah.

00:47:29.118 --> 00:47:29.908
Just a little cheat.

00:47:29.998 --> 00:47:30.578
Joe: Yeah.

00:47:30.628 --> 00:47:31.418
You would, yeah.

00:47:31.848 --> 00:47:34.898
I think you had a call to adventure,
you got called to a deeper reality

00:47:34.898 --> 00:47:38.958
and instead of doing that, you've
papered over the cracks and tried

00:47:38.968 --> 00:47:42.378
to go back to sourdough and being
functional and you just, you just

00:47:42.378 --> 00:47:43.978
don't have the energy for that anymore.

00:47:44.458 --> 00:47:46.818
Cause your energy's been called somewhere
else and you've missed the call.

00:47:46.968 --> 00:47:47.868
Not a papering.

00:47:48.518 --> 00:47:49.038
Sam: But like the

00:47:49.048 --> 00:47:51.058
Joe: re, the re, it's like, Oh,
let's just get back on with it.

00:47:51.058 --> 00:47:53.578
It's like, no, well the
reconstruction, different person.

00:47:53.588 --> 00:47:54.448
No, yeah, yeah.

00:47:54.448 --> 00:47:56.658
It's not, it's not kind of
what the topic of the show was.

00:47:56.908 --> 00:47:58.848
It's like, we don't go
back to who we were.

00:47:59.208 --> 00:47:59.528
No.

00:47:59.528 --> 00:48:01.638
Ali: And I, and I don't think

00:48:01.638 --> 00:48:02.908
Joe: we're going backwards.

00:48:02.908 --> 00:48:04.538
We can go deeper is what I'm saying.

00:48:04.578 --> 00:48:04.768
Does that

00:48:04.768 --> 00:48:05.295
Ali: make sense?

00:48:05.295 --> 00:48:07.488
And I certainly feel like, yeah,
like the things that I was.

00:48:07.717 --> 00:48:12.367
Holding, you know, down that,
that is where I have gone

00:48:12.367 --> 00:48:14.167
deeper and understanding.

00:48:14.167 --> 00:48:14.467
Yes, that's good.

00:48:14.587 --> 00:48:14.647
Yeah.

00:48:14.647 --> 00:48:15.067
The therapy.

00:48:15.067 --> 00:48:17.797
So that's where I've
understood, you know, trauma.

00:48:17.947 --> 00:48:18.037
Yeah.

00:48:18.067 --> 00:48:22.117
My behaviors, you know, things I've
done, things that have happened to me.

00:48:22.117 --> 00:48:22.207
Mm-Hmm.

00:48:22.237 --> 00:48:25.207
That's where I've gone
deeper after my breakdown.

00:48:25.417 --> 00:48:25.537
Mm-Hmm.

00:48:25.837 --> 00:48:28.537
. And I needed to go through
that to understand why I did

00:48:28.537 --> 00:48:29.527
a lot of the things I did.

00:48:29.527 --> 00:48:30.187
So I have that under.

00:48:30.567 --> 00:48:32.677
I feel like I have a pretty
good understanding of why I do

00:48:32.677 --> 00:48:33.827
a lot of the things I do now.

00:48:33.857 --> 00:48:36.637
That wasn't something I
found hard to pick up.

00:48:36.637 --> 00:48:39.507
I found that quite easily to rationalize
and like, Oh, that makes sense.

00:48:39.507 --> 00:48:40.947
Probably a pretty good patient to have.

00:48:41.107 --> 00:48:44.007
Oh, like to the point, like my
psychologist said, it's, it's a,

00:48:44.617 --> 00:48:50.452
it's a, to my detriment that I
can understand why, how and why.

00:48:50.622 --> 00:48:54.632
Yeah, quickly with it and then
feel fucking frustrated because

00:48:54.632 --> 00:48:57.032
it's not, you know, I can see it.

00:48:57.032 --> 00:48:57.172
You've got too much

00:48:57.172 --> 00:48:57.422
Joe: logic

00:48:57.622 --> 00:48:58.252
Ali: and rationality.

00:48:58.292 --> 00:48:58.882
Yeah, it is.

00:48:58.922 --> 00:49:00.972
But to a point of, to a fault, that's the

00:49:00.992 --> 00:49:01.302
Joe: problem.

00:49:01.302 --> 00:49:03.482
If you're bipolar type
one, you're a mystic.

00:49:04.292 --> 00:49:06.572
Ali: I'm not, I don't feel,
I don't feel that I'm.

00:49:07.412 --> 00:49:09.622
Joe: That's whether you
want to be or not, you are.

00:49:09.672 --> 00:49:09.892
I think

00:49:09.892 --> 00:49:11.862
Sam: maybe you work your magic
in a different way though.

00:49:11.902 --> 00:49:14.292
It's not going to be the, it's
not going to be the cave life

00:49:14.292 --> 00:49:15.812
for you, the wide eyed, wild eyed

00:49:15.812 --> 00:49:16.172
Joe: mystic.

00:49:16.432 --> 00:49:20.062
Before there was a designation
of bipolar type one, there was.

00:49:20.442 --> 00:49:21.642
Charming and mystic.

00:49:21.882 --> 00:49:23.382
Ali: So I mean, but I feel like to

00:49:23.592 --> 00:49:26.022
Joe: whereas you are
hyper-rational, hyper logical.

00:49:26.067 --> 00:49:26.487
No, you're

00:49:26.487 --> 00:49:28.692
Sam: also drawn, you're also
drawn to the eccentric thing too.

00:49:28.692 --> 00:49:28.872
But I,

00:49:28.872 --> 00:49:31.032
Joe: yeah, you're happy to
listen to us, but you won't

00:49:31.032 --> 00:49:32.352
go along with anything weird.

00:49:32.607 --> 00:49:37.902
Ali: I, I feel though that in the right
environment with the right supports, yeah.

00:49:38.022 --> 00:49:40.607
That life could be very possible indeed.

00:49:40.607 --> 00:49:43.962
But I absolutely still have to work.

00:49:43.962 --> 00:49:46.212
You're still a parent and
take a child care of a child.

00:49:46.212 --> 00:49:46.272
Yeah.

00:49:46.277 --> 00:49:46.327
Yeah.

00:49:46.392 --> 00:49:46.872
And there's no.

00:49:47.067 --> 00:49:50.007
space to be a mystic, but
like, if I didn't have the

00:49:50.007 --> 00:49:50.927
responsibility, you've been

00:49:50.927 --> 00:49:51.627
Joe: accused of being a

00:49:51.627 --> 00:49:52.427
Ali: witch before though.

00:49:52.902 --> 00:49:54.682
That was, that's because
I have a pointy nose.

00:49:54.942 --> 00:49:58.732
Um, and a cackle.

00:49:58.782 --> 00:49:59.042
Yeah.

00:49:59.042 --> 00:49:59.512
And a cackle.

00:49:59.512 --> 00:49:59.842
Yeah.

00:50:00.252 --> 00:50:00.422
Yeah.

00:50:00.422 --> 00:50:01.802
I just, I had a witchy vibe as well.

00:50:01.802 --> 00:50:05.212
I was told, but it was more like, you
know, the long dark hair back then.

00:50:05.242 --> 00:50:05.952
Oh yeah.

00:50:06.032 --> 00:50:06.542
That would look good.

00:50:06.562 --> 00:50:07.032
Yeah.

00:50:07.032 --> 00:50:11.392
Like, but at the, like I said,
I don't feel like I am in any,

00:50:11.602 --> 00:50:12.812
you know, and historically.

00:50:13.282 --> 00:50:16.572
If you're looking at shamans and stuff,
they were revered and supported and

00:50:16.572 --> 00:50:19.195
they could, someone would bring the
shaman food, if the shaman wasn't

00:50:19.195 --> 00:50:21.692
out there foraging for himself.

00:50:21.692 --> 00:50:22.422
As they should.

00:50:22.422 --> 00:50:25.592
Who's, like, no one's foraging for me.

00:50:26.002 --> 00:50:27.002
Yeah, that's

00:50:27.292 --> 00:50:28.642
Joe: the thing, we've been
born in the wrong time.

00:50:28.642 --> 00:50:31.242
Ali: Yeah, so absolutely,
so, well, I don't, so I don't

00:50:31.242 --> 00:50:31.372
Joe: have this.

00:50:31.372 --> 00:50:32.452
Yeah, but I'm embracing the mystery.

00:50:33.137 --> 00:50:35.457
Sam: Well, I've said this before, the
government needs to bring in a nice

00:50:35.457 --> 00:50:35.907
Ali: game for me.

00:50:35.907 --> 00:50:38.757
If there was a UBI and I didn't
have, and I could just get by.

00:50:39.387 --> 00:50:43.137
And like I said, if my retirement plan,
although the idea of being able to do

00:50:43.137 --> 00:50:46.467
the things I want to do, and I find great
joy and pleasure in doing, and probably

00:50:46.467 --> 00:50:50.652
have the energy to do and potentially
explore a mystic shaman sort of.

00:50:50.852 --> 00:50:52.742
Life is just simply not...

00:50:52.782 --> 00:50:53.112
I just don't...

00:50:53.302 --> 00:50:56.862
Joe: I think unless you have some
curiosity about the nature of

00:50:56.862 --> 00:51:02.132
reality and some willingness to
explore some spirituality, I don't

00:51:02.132 --> 00:51:04.502
think the retired life that you're
talking about will be satisfying.

00:51:04.512 --> 00:51:04.892
No, but you

00:51:04.892 --> 00:51:06.802
Sam: know, you know Ali's a
very subtle thinker and has

00:51:06.802 --> 00:51:08.112
got all those shades going on.

00:51:08.112 --> 00:51:10.152
It's not, it's not always
expressed directly.

00:51:10.152 --> 00:51:12.622
And, and, but, and also you're,
you're, you've determined to

00:51:12.622 --> 00:51:15.352
put her in the rationalist box,
but I don't know if it's as...

00:51:15.937 --> 00:51:17.057
Complete is all that.

00:51:18.057 --> 00:51:18.787
Joe: It's conditioning.

00:51:18.817 --> 00:51:19.937
I don't think you can drop it.

00:51:19.967 --> 00:51:22.957
There's a curiosity in there somewhere,
but it can't come to the surface.

00:51:23.017 --> 00:51:23.907
No, but I think the curiosity...

00:51:23.907 --> 00:51:25.197
There's a yearning, you know?

00:51:26.137 --> 00:51:29.107
Your yearning for God is actually
God's yearning for you, Ali.

00:51:29.507 --> 00:51:30.954
Ali: Oh my God.

00:51:30.954 --> 00:51:32.220
Jesus

00:51:32.220 --> 00:51:33.487
Joe: Christ.

00:51:33.487 --> 00:51:34.307
Alright, I think we should wrap it up.

00:51:34.307 --> 00:51:34.827
No, I love it.

00:51:34.827 --> 00:51:35.767
I

00:51:35.767 --> 00:51:37.557
Sam: love that character though.

00:51:37.567 --> 00:51:40.557
Actually, I'm enjoying the
come to Jesus character.

00:51:40.557 --> 00:51:41.257
I don't mind it.

00:51:41.467 --> 00:51:42.027
It is fun.

00:51:42.037 --> 00:51:42.847
It's not a character.

00:51:42.967 --> 00:51:43.757
No, no, no.

00:51:43.757 --> 00:51:44.192
I'm joking.

00:51:44.192 --> 00:51:44.777
I'm joking.

00:51:44.787 --> 00:51:46.057
I know it's, I know you mean it.

00:51:46.717 --> 00:51:47.257
Absolutely.

00:51:47.257 --> 00:51:48.117
Joe: No, no, no.

00:51:48.557 --> 00:51:50.687
Christian God, just God,
just loving awareness.

00:51:50.737 --> 00:51:52.497
The start of this show,
go back and listen.

00:51:52.507 --> 00:51:53.767
You both signed on to it.

00:51:54.737 --> 00:51:56.097
So we're all doing it.

00:51:56.677 --> 00:51:57.537
We're all loving awareness.

00:51:58.057 --> 00:51:59.717
Anyway, we've given Ali a real grilling.

00:51:59.717 --> 00:52:00.957
I think we should let her have a

00:52:00.957 --> 00:52:01.157
Sam: break.

00:52:01.157 --> 00:52:01.557
We have.

00:52:01.557 --> 00:52:03.047
We've really put her under the microscope.

00:52:03.187 --> 00:52:03.487
Yeah.

00:52:03.707 --> 00:52:04.257
Well, I don't know.

00:52:04.267 --> 00:52:04.437
Was

00:52:04.447 --> 00:52:05.117
Ali: that fun, Ali?

00:52:05.147 --> 00:52:05.927
Yeah, no, it was good.

00:52:06.087 --> 00:52:09.007
It was really, yeah, no, I really,
I enjoy, like, I enjoy being able to

00:52:09.007 --> 00:52:14.200
sort of, It's not often I can take
pause and actually verbalize it, like

00:52:14.200 --> 00:52:19.227
I definitely have it going on in my
head in a way, but not in a way that

00:52:19.227 --> 00:52:22.662
it's Sort of usually expressed 'cause
outside of therapy, it's not socially

00:52:22.662 --> 00:52:23.952
acceptable to do what was Yeah.

00:52:23.952 --> 00:52:25.692
I'm not doing it with my
colleagues at, at work.

00:52:25.692 --> 00:52:27.612
I'm not doing it with
my family necessarily.

00:52:27.612 --> 00:52:28.007
Like Yeah.

00:52:28.012 --> 00:52:28.122
Yeah.

00:52:28.122 --> 00:52:31.062
Joe: And she's a very giving
person who puts other people first.

00:52:31.062 --> 00:52:31.648
So it's, it's true.

00:52:31.962 --> 00:52:34.382
You have to force Allie
to go into the spotlight

00:52:34.382 --> 00:52:35.102
Sam: and Yeah.

00:52:35.162 --> 00:52:37.172
But was being, so, giving in the process.

00:52:37.387 --> 00:52:39.217
By being the guinea pig, and allowing

00:52:39.397 --> 00:52:40.577
Joe: Not self obsessed
like you and me, Sam.

00:52:40.637 --> 00:52:41.227
That's right.

00:52:41.297 --> 00:52:41.537
Yeah.

00:52:41.557 --> 00:52:45.757
But, look, I've been told that
this show is a lot of, well, almost

00:52:45.757 --> 00:52:48.707
completely us just being self
obsessed and talking about ourselves.

00:52:48.707 --> 00:52:49.777
But you know what I realised?

00:52:49.777 --> 00:52:50.837
I mean, there's some truth in that.

00:52:51.027 --> 00:52:52.867
If people don't want that,
they just won't listen to the

00:52:52.867 --> 00:52:54.037
show, because that's all it is.

00:52:54.037 --> 00:52:54.837
Don't worry about it.

00:52:55.537 --> 00:52:58.747
So I was like, oh no, it's true,
what a, what a cunning criticism,

00:52:58.747 --> 00:53:01.677
and I'm like, oh no, that's That's,
yeah, that's the entire show.

00:53:02.757 --> 00:53:06.867
Okay, well if they like it,
I think the sweetener was,

00:53:06.947 --> 00:53:08.367
but you have a great dynamic.

00:53:08.477 --> 00:53:08.727
Yeah.

00:53:08.727 --> 00:53:12.617
I was like, okay, so all we do
is self obsessively, I think

00:53:12.747 --> 00:53:14.747
the term navel gazing was used.

00:53:15.117 --> 00:53:15.667
Oh my god, it's

00:53:15.667 --> 00:53:16.247
Sam: a podcast.

00:53:16.977 --> 00:53:17.677
Joe: Yeah, yeah.

00:53:17.697 --> 00:53:19.487
So I was like, what, how do we fix that?

00:53:19.527 --> 00:53:21.282
And I'm like, oh, we can't.

00:53:21.462 --> 00:53:21.682
It's the

00:53:21.682 --> 00:53:22.472
Sam: entire show.

00:53:22.852 --> 00:53:23.432
Do you know what's funny though?

00:53:23.432 --> 00:53:25.772
When you listen to like a topical
podcast that's meant to be all

00:53:25.772 --> 00:53:29.142
business and then they do some
navel gazing, I'm like, see, they're

00:53:29.142 --> 00:53:29.492
Ali: at it.

00:53:29.832 --> 00:53:31.632
I think everyone's prone to it.

00:53:31.632 --> 00:53:33.932
Like it's a natural place to veer to.

00:53:34.282 --> 00:53:34.592
Joe: Yeah.

00:53:34.612 --> 00:53:34.942
Okay.

00:53:34.942 --> 00:53:38.202
Well, this week's one thing of the
10, 000 things was, do we ever fully

00:53:38.202 --> 00:53:39.832
recover from a full mental breakdown?

00:53:40.292 --> 00:53:41.262
And the answer was...

00:53:42.412 --> 00:53:43.662
Sam: No, and you don't have to

00:53:44.262 --> 00:53:45.602
Joe: say yes, you're fine.

00:53:45.602 --> 00:53:47.159
Just crack on, go deeper,

00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:48.459
Sam: always go deeper.

00:53:48.459 --> 00:53:48.892
Yes.

00:53:48.892 --> 00:53:49.302
You're fine.

00:53:49.302 --> 00:53:50.232
Crack on, go deeper.

00:53:50.232 --> 00:53:51.242
You're still broken.

00:53:51.272 --> 00:53:52.272
Keep working on it.

00:53:52.332 --> 00:53:53.542
It's all, all of that's true.

00:53:53.542 --> 00:53:58.512
But I would also say that like,
I tend, um, man, so many, so much

00:53:58.512 --> 00:53:59.732
disagreement and agreement with Joey.

00:53:59.742 --> 00:54:00.542
It's dizzying.

00:54:00.552 --> 00:54:02.152
I'm trying to tally it all up in my head.

00:54:02.152 --> 00:54:03.472
Like, is he more wrong than right?

00:54:03.492 --> 00:54:05.882
Joe: Not sure, but there will
be no logical coherence to what

00:54:05.882 --> 00:54:07.992
I've said, but logic is only

00:54:07.992 --> 00:54:08.882
Sam: one way of thinking.

00:54:08.902 --> 00:54:09.752
I think you've had a definite.

00:54:10.372 --> 00:54:11.962
It's a coherent view on this whole thing.

00:54:11.962 --> 00:54:15.712
I'll actually, I'll give you that, but
the, my feeling is there's something

00:54:15.712 --> 00:54:17.752
there that you've identified a goal.

00:54:18.142 --> 00:54:19.822
It's not gonna be easy to pursue.

00:54:20.892 --> 00:54:21.162
Actually.

00:54:21.167 --> 00:54:22.692
It might prove easier than I thought.

00:54:22.842 --> 00:54:26.262
I don't know, prove me wrong, but
like I, whose goal, I just want

00:54:26.582 --> 00:54:28.412
the energy level slightly better.

00:54:28.417 --> 00:54:31.892
I just, I want to have a little
bit more executive function maybe,

00:54:32.162 --> 00:54:35.872
you know, like, I mean, I think we
can concretize it a little bit and.

00:54:36.912 --> 00:54:39.802
I think pursuing that, I think you've
found lots of great ways of pursuing

00:54:39.802 --> 00:54:43.752
it in the past and I've got confidence
that you'll find more ways and they'll

00:54:43.752 --> 00:54:44.662
have a spiritual dimension to them.

00:54:44.662 --> 00:54:47.782
Joe: Yeah, and if you tap into your
spiritual energy, you'll have unlimited

00:54:47.782 --> 00:54:49.852
energy, but not in that unhealthy way.

00:54:50.032 --> 00:54:51.672
Sam: Don't make any large promises though.

00:54:51.682 --> 00:54:52.042
Joe: Yeah.

00:54:53.162 --> 00:54:56.422
But, you're not willing to
yet, so pray for the willing,

00:54:56.562 --> 00:54:57.612
I'll pray for your willingness.

00:54:57.772 --> 00:54:57.992
Thanks.

00:54:59.112 --> 00:54:59.372
Thanks Joe.

00:54:59.592 --> 00:55:01.212
Alright, well see you later everybody.

00:55:01.292 --> 00:55:01.962
See ya.

00:55:02.662 --> 00:55:03.042
Sam: Ah.