WEBVTT 00:04.500 --> 00:09.360 Gary: Medieval Archives Podcast Lesson 79. 00:16.530 --> 00:19.350 Welcome back to the Medieval Archives podcast, the podcast 00:19.350 --> 00:22.500 for medieval news, history and entertainment. I'm your host, 00:22.500 --> 00:26.430 Gary, a.k.a. the Archivist, in this lesson, along with author 00:26.430 --> 00:29.130 Wayne Bartlett, we're going to examine the reign of King 00:29.130 --> 00:32.640 Richard the Lionheart, a warrior king who spent the majority of 00:32.640 --> 00:35.010 his time away from England. We'll look at his upbringing, 00:35.010 --> 00:38.400 the Crusades, his war with France and the aftermath of his 00:38.400 --> 00:41.970 death. Now, before we jump into the discussion, if you have any 00:41.970 --> 00:44.700 questions or comments or there's a topic you're dying to hear on 00:44.700 --> 00:48.030 the show, send them over to podcast at medieval archives dot 00:48.030 --> 00:51.270 com. So I had a great talk with Wayne about Richard the 00:51.270 --> 00:54.000 Lionheart and Wayne's book titled Richard the Lionheart. 00:54.000 --> 00:56.970 The Crusader King of England is the first biography of Richard 00:56.970 --> 01:00.420 in almost 20 years. You can find the links to all of Wayne's 01:00.420 --> 01:05.490 books at medieval archives dot com slash 79. Let's dive into 01:05.490 --> 01:08.610 medieval England and learn more about Richard the Lionheart. 01:15.720 --> 01:19.020 Today we are joined by Wayne Bartlett, author of Medieval 01:19.020 --> 01:22.330 books. And Wayne, you've written over a dozen medieval books. 01:22.350 --> 01:23.460 Thank you for being on the show. 01:24.690 --> 01:26.910 Wayne: Thank you very much, Garry. I'm looking forward to 01:26.910 --> 01:31.230 talking with you. And yeah, it would be very interesting to 01:31.230 --> 01:35.100 explore the medieval period and obviously the Crusades and 01:35.100 --> 01:36.570 Richard Quest in particular. 01:37.020 --> 01:39.090 Gary: So for those who don't know, you give us a little 01:39.090 --> 01:42.090 introduction or a brief bio on on who you are. 01:43.010 --> 01:46.110 Wayne: Sure. Yeah. My name is Wayne Bartlett, and I've been 01:46.110 --> 01:51.970 writing my first book was published in 1998, and it was a 01:51.990 --> 01:57.210 general history of the crusade called God Wills It and since 01:57.210 --> 02:00.750 then I've written about 15 other books, mainly on the medieval 02:00.750 --> 02:04.080 period, though I have strayed from that call, I guess, once or 02:04.080 --> 02:07.830 twice for more general interest things. But yeah, I just love 02:07.830 --> 02:10.710 the medieval period and the Crusades in particular. 02:12.630 --> 02:15.450 Gary: In your career, how did you become a writer? Is that 02:15.450 --> 02:17.640 what you aspired to be when you started out? 02:18.630 --> 02:23.850 Wayne: No, not at all, Gary. When I started out, I left. I 02:23.850 --> 02:27.420 left school, went into employment as an accountant, 02:28.290 --> 02:33.600 which I remain. And, you know, that's been a good career. But 02:33.690 --> 02:39.690 I'd always been interested in history and in my in my teens 02:39.690 --> 02:43.410 even, I would regularly be reading various history books 02:44.940 --> 02:48.870 and, you know, have always been really interested in medieval 02:48.900 --> 02:54.240 history. In particular. In my late thirties, I became a little 02:54.240 --> 02:58.140 bit aware that I was reading a lot of books on history, which 02:58.140 --> 03:04.800 were quite academic in style, and although they were obviously 03:04.800 --> 03:09.660 well researched and of great interest in some respects, I 03:09.660 --> 03:13.530 felt sometimes the storyline got lost in the midst of all the 03:13.530 --> 03:19.140 facts and I just I'd always enjoyed writing without any 03:19.140 --> 03:22.950 particular end in mind. I suddenly thought, well, maybe I 03:22.950 --> 03:28.260 should maybe explore a bit more the possibilities of writing in 03:28.710 --> 03:32.520 medieval history, particularly always been a great interest, as 03:32.520 --> 03:37.110 I say, but not necessarily as a writer. That general interest 03:37.110 --> 03:42.000 really sparked my kind of desire to research more deeply, but 03:42.000 --> 03:46.860 also to tell a story which I think sometimes get lost in the 03:47.130 --> 03:51.330 in the middle of maybe too many facts. Sometimes we lose track 03:51.330 --> 03:55.110 of the story line, which is sometimes extremely gripping. 03:56.160 --> 03:59.250 Gary: So in your writing process, is it working from an outline 03:59.250 --> 04:01.740 kind of thing, or how do you how do you go about writing your 04:01.740 --> 04:02.250 books? 04:03.600 --> 04:07.500 Wayne: Yes, a very good question. Obviously, when you start off, 04:07.500 --> 04:12.030 you have to have a general idea of of what particular approach 04:12.030 --> 04:15.990 you're going to take of the subject that you are looking at. 04:16.590 --> 04:20.010 You need to be very, very informed as to the general 04:20.010 --> 04:24.570 subject matter. So you always start really because the 04:24.570 --> 04:29.270 publisher will insist on this that you come up with or not 04:29.310 --> 04:34.740 outline as what you intend to write, that the issue is then 04:34.890 --> 04:38.760 until you actually get into deeper research, you don't 04:38.760 --> 04:42.630 really always know where the storyline is going to take you. 04:43.260 --> 04:47.190 There is never more than an outline because as you start to 04:47.190 --> 04:51.510 dig more deeply, you get pulled off in perhaps unexpected 04:51.510 --> 04:57.450 directions and then you have to be adaptable. In terms of my 04:57.450 --> 05:02.160 writing approach, once this initial high level outline is in 05:02.160 --> 05:06.930 place, my philosophy is very much around the principle of 05:06.930 --> 05:10.830 don't get it right, get it written. If you write something 05:10.830 --> 05:15.720 down, it's much easier to work on it, to critique it, to change 05:15.720 --> 05:22.830 things. So I write quite quickly, but I haven't really routinely 05:22.830 --> 05:26.880 returned to my work and change things and and as I say, are 05:26.880 --> 05:31.710 often be read in an unexpected direction by some previously 05:31.710 --> 05:35.110 unexpected facts. So I get something written down, keep 05:35.130 --> 05:39.270 reviewing it as new evidence comes along. I'm quite happy to 05:39.270 --> 05:43.260 go off in a slightly different direction than perhaps the one I 05:43.260 --> 05:45.150 originally intended to go in. 05:45.960 --> 05:48.720 Gary: And I like that philosophy of don't get it right, get it 05:48.720 --> 05:52.140 written, it's going to get your ideas out there and then fine 05:52.140 --> 05:54.630 tune them after that instead of just thinking about them and 05:54.630 --> 05:55.950 never actually acting on them. 05:56.130 --> 05:59.340 Wayne: Excellent. Yeah, I think I think that's the thing for me. 05:59.730 --> 06:02.490 You know, I've tried other approaches. The thing with 06:02.490 --> 06:05.790 writing is you're always learning not just about the 06:05.790 --> 06:09.450 content of what you're writing about, but also about you as a 06:09.450 --> 06:14.640 writer. And, you know, over time, I've learned to be a little bit 06:14.640 --> 06:19.110 more sort of ambitious in getting things written up, but 06:19.110 --> 06:23.570 then take much longer to review what you've written. So, you 06:23.580 --> 06:28.860 know, I can write a first draft quite quickly, but I often take 06:29.040 --> 06:33.570 maybe 6 to 9 months after the draft is written to really work 06:33.570 --> 06:38.190 on it and and to change and adjust things as new evidence 06:38.190 --> 06:38.910 emerges. 06:39.450 --> 06:42.210 Gary: You said you started out with just a general interest in 06:42.210 --> 06:45.840 history, in medieval history. Were there books or authors that 06:46.140 --> 06:49.230 kind of sparked that flame or you you read a book and you said, 06:49.230 --> 06:52.200 Oh, wow, I need to learn more about this, this subject because 06:52.200 --> 06:55.230 of a certain author or just books in general. What got you 06:55.230 --> 06:55.740 interested? 06:56.580 --> 07:00.540 Wayne: Well, well, I think early on it was perhaps books in 07:00.540 --> 07:04.830 general, but there is certainly one writer in particular who I 07:04.830 --> 07:09.210 think pulled me into the Crusade specifically, and that was 07:09.310 --> 07:14.760 Stephen Runciman, who over half a century ago wrote a three 07:14.760 --> 07:20.400 volume History of the Crusades and and although in some of the 07:21.120 --> 07:25.860 the historical analysis some may argue with I gave him the 07:25.860 --> 07:30.180 benefit of a half centuries more research perspective, his 07:30.180 --> 07:34.470 writing style I thought was amazing. It was a it was 07:34.470 --> 07:38.280 wonderfully easy to read but told everything that need to be 07:38.280 --> 07:43.290 told as well. So he definitely was was an early inspiration for 07:43.290 --> 07:48.990 me and has remained so as I've read other works of his. You 07:48.990 --> 07:53.490 know, I never cease to be impressed by by both his his 07:53.490 --> 07:57.810 grasp of the subject and his writing style. And that doesn't 07:57.810 --> 08:02.430 mean that everything he wrote is necessarily correct or something 08:02.430 --> 08:06.840 that I agree with. But having said that, I think is his work 08:06.840 --> 08:11.670 was just a fantastic way of bringing general readers into 08:11.670 --> 08:15.270 the medieval period and the Crusades in particular. 08:16.260 --> 08:19.200 Gary: It seems always that our love for history or for whatever 08:19.200 --> 08:22.200 subject comes from books that we've read, or a certain author 08:22.200 --> 08:25.350 that kind of grabs our attention or has a writing style that 08:25.740 --> 08:28.890 right attention to it really draws into that subject. 08:29.760 --> 08:33.090 Wayne: Absolutely. You have to be interested in a subject. I 08:33.090 --> 08:36.570 think you have to be almost passionate about it before you 08:36.570 --> 08:42.210 can really start to understand the period. You know, it is not 08:42.690 --> 08:45.990 it's not necessarily a straightforward process to 08:45.990 --> 08:50.670 really understand what was going on in history. You do have to 08:50.910 --> 08:55.110 you do have to think, you do have to analyse, you do have to 08:55.110 --> 08:59.190 scratch below the surface to really understand. But to do 08:59.190 --> 09:03.810 that you need to be motivated to do it. And I think influential 09:04.230 --> 09:09.290 and skilled writers like Stephen Runciman really, really help 09:09.390 --> 09:15.270 work and pique your interest in a particular subject and really 09:15.270 --> 09:17.100 make you feel passionate about it. 09:17.730 --> 09:19.530 Gary: You have about 15 books that you've written on the 09:19.530 --> 09:20.370 medieval period. 09:20.520 --> 09:21.330 Wayne: Yeah, that's right. 09:21.570 --> 09:23.790 Gary: You said that you get your first draft out and then you 09:23.790 --> 09:27.750 take maybe seven or so, nine months to kind of fine tune 09:27.750 --> 09:30.870 those details and get new research and things like that. 09:30.870 --> 09:34.020 So how much research goes into your each book that you write. 09:34.800 --> 09:39.540 Wayne: Is very extensive. And, you know, I probably think from 09:39.540 --> 09:43.890 start to finish maybe eight months to write a book and the 09:43.890 --> 09:47.550 first nine months of that would be working on the first draft, 09:47.550 --> 09:51.990 doing the research. I would have done some research even before 09:51.990 --> 09:56.850 the publisher's proposal goes. Then obviously, I but I think, 09:56.850 --> 10:00.660 you know, once once I started, as I say, about 18 months from 10:00.660 --> 10:04.470 beginning to end is the normal time. I really even when I'm 10:04.470 --> 10:06.810 writing and even when I'm reviewing, I'm always 10:06.810 --> 10:10.590 researching at the same time. You know, it's a research that 10:10.590 --> 10:16.130 shapes my general direction. And I think we are lucky these days 10:16.140 --> 10:20.760 in that medieval source documents are maybe much more 10:20.760 --> 10:23.970 available than they were even half a century ago. There are 10:23.970 --> 10:28.530 many English translations available. I very much like to 10:28.530 --> 10:34.560 go back to source and to kind of understand the Chronicles and 10:34.560 --> 10:39.150 things like that, as well as the perhaps more boring that may be 10:39.150 --> 10:44.010 more reliable archival records which which fortunately in 10:44.010 --> 10:49.680 England we have the extensive medieval records to refer to. So 10:49.680 --> 10:53.580 I'm very much research led and to me that's the main part of 10:53.580 --> 10:57.360 the fun. I love writing, but perhaps I love researching a 10:57.420 --> 11:01.140 more, you know, it's all part of the same end result, but you 11:01.140 --> 11:03.120 have to dig one to do the other. Well. 11:03.690 --> 11:06.450 Gary: Your last book was on King Canute of England and your 11:06.450 --> 11:09.090 current book is on Richard the Lionheart. 11:09.240 --> 11:09.870 Wayne: That's right. 11:10.200 --> 11:13.410 Gary: What spurred your interest to take the biography of Richard 11:13.410 --> 11:14.070 the Lionheart? 11:14.700 --> 11:18.840 Wayne: Well, he's a he's a very controversial figure, for one 11:18.840 --> 11:23.190 thing, even in his own time, he was a very controversial king 11:23.190 --> 11:27.600 and a very controversial man. So he's a generally interesting 11:27.600 --> 11:31.650 subject just because he's a slightly larger than life 11:31.770 --> 11:36.000 character now, he's also a very divisive character. I think, 11:36.450 --> 11:41.070 even into modern times. Some historians have been extremely 11:41.070 --> 11:46.050 dismissive of Richard, regard him as a not very good king of 11:46.050 --> 11:50.880 England. Others, perhaps have been more supportive of Richard, 11:51.360 --> 11:56.670 and I really wanted to find out for myself how I viewed Richard. 11:56.820 --> 12:01.710 You know, was he a good medieval king? Was he flawed as a human 12:01.710 --> 12:06.390 being? So all of those factors together, Richard, the king and 12:06.390 --> 12:11.040 Richard, the man, as well as obviously Richard the crusader 12:11.100 --> 12:15.810 with my interest in the Crusades, made it a fascinating subject 12:15.810 --> 12:20.310 for me. So I was really genuinely interested and 12:20.310 --> 12:25.590 motivated to try and find out who Richard the real man and 12:25.590 --> 12:30.150 Richard the real king actually was, because he is such a larger 12:30.150 --> 12:33.840 than life character. And sometimes it's hard to get to 12:33.840 --> 12:38.550 the real man and the real monarch behind the legend and 12:38.550 --> 12:39.060 the myths. 12:39.960 --> 12:44.310 Gary: And I know as a kid, I my first introduction for Kings was 12:44.310 --> 12:46.620 Richard the Lionheart. You know, it's the one, you know, Robin 12:46.620 --> 12:48.240 Hood, It's in the movies. 12:48.670 --> 12:49.830 Wayne: And absolutely. 12:49.980 --> 12:52.170 Gary: He was kind of the one that you get, I guess maybe 12:52.350 --> 12:57.000 introduced to first as a child or easiest suspect. Then he 12:57.000 --> 13:00.390 definitely has a legacy, a good legacy and a good legend about 13:00.390 --> 13:01.410 him as being the warrior. 13:01.410 --> 13:02.700 Wayne: KING Exactly. 13:03.060 --> 13:07.710 Gary: So he was the third son of Henry and Eleanor of Aquitaine, 13:07.950 --> 13:12.100 third son. He's not necessarily in line to be king, and he 13:12.180 --> 13:16.110 doesn't even expect to be king. The oldest son is brought up as 13:16.110 --> 13:18.240 the prince. He's brought up to be a king. He goes through 13:18.240 --> 13:23.370 certain yes, genes and culture. So as a third son did, was he 13:23.370 --> 13:26.910 ever he wasn't expected to be king. But was his upbringing the 13:26.910 --> 13:29.670 same as his older brother or was his upbringing completely 13:29.670 --> 13:33.360 different? And did it prepare him for the kingship that was 13:33.360 --> 13:34.170 coming his way? 13:35.220 --> 13:38.850 Wayne: Well, it's a very good question. I first of all, 13:39.030 --> 13:42.450 Richard's eldest brother actually only lived for two or 13:42.450 --> 13:47.370 three years. So. So or then he was the third son. He quickly 13:47.370 --> 13:52.200 became the second survive king son. So even when he was a boy 13:52.200 --> 13:56.970 of five, perhaps he would have been second in line to take over 13:56.970 --> 14:01.110 from his father, Henry The second. He did have, though, a 14:01.110 --> 14:05.940 very charismatic and very significant older brother 14:05.940 --> 14:10.650 remaining. It was also called Henry after his father, Henry 14:10.650 --> 14:17.910 the second and really the formative years of Richard and 14:17.910 --> 14:21.030 the whole family. There is a large family with many brothers 14:21.030 --> 14:25.590 and sisters. It was all shaped by the actions and the 14:25.590 --> 14:30.900 personalities of their parents. So Henry, the second ruled over 14:30.900 --> 14:36.340 a vast empire, effectively including England and parts of 14:36.360 --> 14:40.800 Wales. But right down through the west, in the north of France, 14:41.610 --> 14:45.300 he had many more lands in France than the French king even did. 14:45.400 --> 14:51.810 So this was a massive empire. And to roll it in a certain way. 14:51.840 --> 14:55.920 HENRY The second quickly delegated, in theory, 14:55.920 --> 15:01.530 responsibility to various of his sons to take over various parts 15:01.530 --> 15:06.720 of his vast territories. The eldest surviving son, Henry, was 15:06.720 --> 15:11.790 given the lion's share of that. In fact, he was nominally king 15:11.790 --> 15:18.540 of England, and Richard was given eventually Aquitaine in 15:18.540 --> 15:21.960 the southwest of France, where he was brought up with his 15:21.960 --> 15:27.090 mother, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and eventually became Duke of 15:27.090 --> 15:31.050 Aquitaine, which was a very significant territory in its own 15:31.050 --> 15:35.610 right. So the two brothers, these two eldest Provence, 15:36.060 --> 15:40.740 ultimately became rivals. You know, it's it's almost like a 15:40.740 --> 15:44.880 case of they say this territory is not big enough for the both 15:44.880 --> 15:50.250 of us. So they were very competitive. And Richard's life, 15:50.250 --> 15:54.540 certainly from his teens, was a very competitive and sometimes 15:54.540 --> 15:59.610 literal conflict with his older brother. But Henry, the second 15:59.670 --> 16:05.130 the king very much remained the dominant power, even though he 16:05.130 --> 16:08.940 delegated, in theory, responsibility. In practice, he 16:08.940 --> 16:12.780 very much held on to the strengths of power. So there was 16:12.780 --> 16:16.380 this complicated struggle between Richard is the older 16:16.380 --> 16:20.490 brother Henry, and his father, Henry, and second, which really 16:20.490 --> 16:25.860 shaped Richard's and a formative years well into his twenties. 16:26.880 --> 16:31.260 Gary: That rivalry that that was there eventually it did has him 16:31.260 --> 16:34.230 and his older brother get along because there was a revolt 16:34.230 --> 16:38.220 against King Henry and it was with his brothers. Was it was 16:38.880 --> 16:41.550 the young Henry involved in that revolt or just Richard? 16:41.550 --> 16:43.170 Wayne: He certainly was, in fact, 16:44.310 --> 16:48.300 Henry, Richard, And then Richard's next youngest brother 16:48.300 --> 16:52.200 called Geoffrey, the three of them. Initially, they were 16:52.200 --> 16:55.920 involved in the revolt against Henry the second, and they were 16:55.920 --> 16:59.560 supported, very interestingly by their mother and then there 16:59.570 --> 17:03.540 their pockets. And so really, this was a very significant 17:03.540 --> 17:08.340 revolt against Henry the second. But it was a very complex 17:08.340 --> 17:14.160 situation because that revolt was put down within about a year 17:14.160 --> 17:18.390 or so by Henry the second and all three brothers then 17:18.840 --> 17:23.430 theoretically came into line and did as they were told. But 17:23.430 --> 17:28.920 subsequently they that they are that Richard's elder brother 17:28.920 --> 17:34.140 Henry revolted again against Henry the second. And this time 17:34.140 --> 17:37.680 Richard took the part of Henry the second. So he ended up 17:38.130 --> 17:44.010 fighting his elder brother Henry. And during one of the campaigns 17:44.010 --> 17:49.860 in this revolt, the elder brother Henry died of dysentery, 17:50.130 --> 17:54.990 which left the road to become the dominant brother open for 17:54.990 --> 17:59.220 Richard. But even that wasn't the end of it. The revolt really 17:59.220 --> 18:03.630 spluttered on and off for about 15 years, and eventually Richard 18:03.630 --> 18:08.640 would revolt again against his father, Henry, the second at the 18:08.640 --> 18:14.250 end of which in 1189, his father, Henry, the second would die 18:14.370 --> 18:18.420 effectively deserted by the rest of the family. So it was a very 18:18.720 --> 18:23.790 complicated and its own family way, a very sad state of affairs. 18:24.450 --> 18:27.420 Gary: It was only a rivalry between all the family members, 18:27.420 --> 18:28.140 it sounds like. 18:28.500 --> 18:31.860 Wayne: Yeah, exactly. They were all very ambitious. S In some 18:31.860 --> 18:36.180 ways they were all very similar, which perhaps was part of the 18:36.180 --> 18:40.650 problem. They had a bit too much in common and they all wanted, I 18:40.650 --> 18:44.580 think, to be the dominant figure and they all wanted much more 18:44.580 --> 18:49.080 power than their father. King Henry. The second was never 18:49.080 --> 18:53.670 prepared to really dedicate to them in practice as well as in 18:53.670 --> 18:58.440 theory. So it was really a case of frustrated ambition which 18:58.650 --> 19:00.210 which led to these problems. 19:01.650 --> 19:05.400 Gary: So when Henry Henry, the second died in 1189, was the 19:05.400 --> 19:08.730 younger Henry that he was already dead at that point. 19:09.060 --> 19:12.870 Wayne: He'd been dead for for a good ten years. At that stage. 19:13.320 --> 19:18.570 So Richard had effectively been the heir apparent for over a 19:18.570 --> 19:24.120 decade. But very interestingly, King Henry, the second, never 19:24.120 --> 19:29.400 formally designated Richard as his heir, in stark contrast to 19:29.400 --> 19:34.020 what he previously done with his eldest son. He's now oldest 19:34.020 --> 19:38.370 surviving son, the late Henry, the elder brother of Richard, 19:38.670 --> 19:43.590 the first he had been made heir apparent. He'd actually even be 19:43.590 --> 19:47.970 crowned as king of England had he been enthroned, if you like, 19:47.980 --> 19:51.960 is the key to Normandy, then he had very much remained very 19:51.960 --> 19:55.650 publicly. The heir apparent. But that never, ever happened with 19:55.650 --> 19:59.820 Richard, which is a very interesting contrast. So 19:59.850 --> 20:04.500 although it was widely expected that Richard would probably take 20:04.500 --> 20:08.340 over on his father's death, there was a younger brother, 20:08.340 --> 20:12.270 John, and certainly there were some stories that Henry the 20:12.270 --> 20:18.300 second was going to pass over Richard and nominate John as his 20:18.300 --> 20:22.050 heir, which he never actually did. But the element of 20:22.050 --> 20:26.220 uncertainty, I think, probably quite deliberately created by 20:26.220 --> 20:32.010 Henry the second very much created a lot of uncertainty and 20:32.010 --> 20:35.550 a lot of tension in the family, especially from Richard. 20:36.330 --> 20:39.580 Gary: And we've seen with what John did as king. So it made for 20:39.600 --> 20:40.350 an interesting. 20:40.920 --> 20:41.550 Wayne: Historical. 20:41.550 --> 20:44.580 Gary: Path if John had become king right away and not Richard. 20:45.450 --> 20:48.870 Wayne: Absolutely. That was said. Well, I think for one thing, 20:48.870 --> 20:53.670 Richard would probably never, ever have accepted that. And I 20:53.670 --> 20:58.080 think given the respective military records to Richard and 20:58.080 --> 21:01.620 John, I think the outcome would have been probably quite a 21:01.620 --> 21:06.030 violent and virtual civil war, where I think Richard would 21:06.030 --> 21:09.420 probably have attempted and may well have succeeded in taking 21:09.420 --> 21:10.590 things by force. 21:11.430 --> 21:15.690 Gary: Richard was crowned king in 1189 in about the fall, and 21:15.690 --> 21:18.990 then shortly after that, I think it was the next summer he left 21:18.990 --> 21:24.000 on Crusade, the Third Crusade, Correct. That was almost the 21:24.000 --> 21:25.350 last time England saw him. 21:26.370 --> 21:28.470 Wayne: So, yes, absolutely. 21:28.860 --> 21:32.670 Gary: So what was the I guess, the impetus for the crusade? Did 21:32.670 --> 21:35.550 he think that the kingdom was stable enough that he could 21:35.550 --> 21:39.000 leave? And I guess did he expect to be gone that long? 21:39.450 --> 21:43.740 Wayne: I think well, certainly the main impetus for the crusade 21:43.740 --> 21:49.410 was a catastrophic defeat for the effectively the Crusader 21:49.410 --> 21:55.010 army in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, which took place at the Battle 21:55.020 --> 22:01.950 of Hatton on the fourth and 5th of July 1187. So a couple of 22:01.950 --> 22:07.440 years before and subsequent to that, the city of Jerusalem was 22:07.440 --> 22:11.640 captured by Muslims at a previous. They'd been hailed by 22:11.970 --> 22:18.480 crusaders for the best part of 90 years. So this was a major 22:18.480 --> 22:22.890 shockwave for the West, certainly one of the seminal 22:23.520 --> 22:28.540 pieces of news of the Middle Ages. And in response to this, a 22:28.560 --> 22:35.010 crusade was quickly summoned, to which Richard declared his is 22:35.010 --> 22:39.570 kind of interesting support that very early on, even before he 22:39.570 --> 22:42.600 was king whilst his father, Henry, the second was still 22:42.600 --> 22:46.830 alive. So that was the main impetus. But it then took a 22:46.830 --> 22:52.530 couple of years to organize that crusade. For a time, Richard was 22:52.530 --> 22:56.880 partly busy fighting his own father, Henry, the second set 22:56.880 --> 23:00.480 off on Crusade anywhere. It was only really on Henry, the 23:00.480 --> 23:04.710 second's death with the vast access to Tim money and other 23:04.710 --> 23:09.360 resources that that also gave Richard that he was able to 23:09.360 --> 23:14.400 think about setting out. So he spent, as you say, about nine 23:14.400 --> 23:18.660 months in England getting things organised. And there were really 23:18.660 --> 23:23.430 two main things he was trying to do in that period. The first one 23:23.430 --> 23:27.960 was unashamedly to raise money. Crusading was a very expensive 23:27.960 --> 23:32.430 option and he needed money to do it. So he introduced a whole 23:32.430 --> 23:37.740 raft of measures to raise money and that was one aspect of his 23:38.220 --> 23:43.650 short but very significant few months in England. The other one 23:43.650 --> 23:48.300 was trying to set up an establishment which would be 23:48.300 --> 23:53.430 able to look after his interests, not just in England, but also 23:53.430 --> 23:57.150 across these French territories, which were equally insignificant 23:57.150 --> 23:59.610 in many ways. Whilst he was away, 24:01.470 --> 24:06.000 he probably didn't expect to be away for as long as he was. And 24:06.090 --> 24:09.390 one of the issues was that he was later captured and half 24:09.390 --> 24:13.920 ransom on his way back, the crusade. So effectively he was 24:13.920 --> 24:17.550 out of the country for four years. Maybe he would have 24:17.550 --> 24:21.450 expected to have been out for maybe two years and said he'd be 24:21.450 --> 24:26.070 sent away for longer than he thought it would be, and the 24:26.070 --> 24:29.910 establishment of which he had set up in England to look after 24:29.910 --> 24:33.930 his interests while he was absent, sent me on occasion that 24:33.930 --> 24:38.310 was very stretched and came close to collapsing, but never 24:38.550 --> 24:40.770 autumn if am ever quite date. 24:41.340 --> 24:44.910 Gary: And so while he was away that he put John in as to rule 24:44.910 --> 24:47.310 the Kingdom, or did he have a just a council of people that he 24:47.310 --> 24:48.540 trusted instead of John? 24:49.290 --> 24:51.690 Wayne: That's a very good question and very interesting. 24:51.690 --> 24:55.470 They he very much important to the council to look after his 24:55.470 --> 24:59.520 interests. He had already fought against John when he had not 24:59.520 --> 25:03.390 been king and in the frequent disputes he had with the rest of 25:03.390 --> 25:08.700 his family. So he probably had very little trust in John even 25:08.700 --> 25:13.560 before he left England. And at one stage before he was, King 25:13.620 --> 25:17.310 insisted he would only go on crusade if John came with him. 25:17.670 --> 25:22.020 Obviously, he was afraid that John would try and manipulate 25:22.200 --> 25:27.300 against him while he was away. Once he became king, perhaps, 25:27.300 --> 25:31.170 maybe even Eleanor of Aquitaine, whose influence may have played 25:31.170 --> 25:35.820 a part here she probably thought is not good for both sons to be 25:35.820 --> 25:38.970 a wife fighting in a crusade, especially when Richard had no 25:38.970 --> 25:43.530 children. So he may have been persuaded that that was sensible 25:43.530 --> 25:48.330 to leave John, but he actually went out of his way to make sure 25:48.330 --> 25:52.710 that John's powers were reasonably limited while he was 25:52.710 --> 25:54.960 absent from England and from France. 25:55.500 --> 25:58.560 Gary: Didn't want a revolt or someone to take over the crown 25:58.560 --> 25:59.340 while he was gone. 26:00.120 --> 26:04.560 Wayne: Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, as it happened, that 26:04.650 --> 26:08.070 came very close, quite close to happening. I mean, Richard's 26:08.070 --> 26:13.110 selection of people to look after his interests was not 100% 26:13.110 --> 26:18.030 successful. There were some people in it world, too, very 26:18.030 --> 26:22.020 well in his interest, his mother, everyone was extremely 26:22.020 --> 26:27.060 supportive of him. I was a very clever political player in her 26:27.060 --> 26:32.160 own right, so she effectively where we did a lot of power on 26:32.160 --> 26:37.460 his behalf, but not all of his councils were successful. One 26:37.590 --> 26:41.700 William Longshore effectively ended up being thrown out of 26:41.700 --> 26:45.960 England, and for a time it looked as if John's party, if 26:45.960 --> 26:49.920 you like, would would assume the most dominant position. And they 26:49.920 --> 26:53.850 even at one stage tried to replace Richard, but they were 26:54.150 --> 26:57.240 they were kind of outmaneuvered and never quite managed to 26:57.240 --> 26:57.960 achieve that. 26:58.260 --> 27:00.690 Gary: So he's fighting a crusade in one continent. And then he's 27:00.690 --> 27:04.200 got his his council and his men trying to save his kingship on 27:04.200 --> 27:05.220 the other, it sounds like. 27:06.090 --> 27:10.680 Wayne: Exactly. And another complicating factor was that his 27:10.680 --> 27:15.500 chief crown crusader was King Philip of France. And if 27:15.510 --> 27:21.180 Augustus of France, he returned from the crusade early, much 27:21.180 --> 27:24.810 earlier than Richard did, and then started to create a lot of 27:24.810 --> 27:28.890 difficulties for Richard back in France while he was away and 27:28.890 --> 27:33.360 ended up plotting with John as well. So Richard certainly had a 27:33.360 --> 27:37.860 very complicated political situation back in Western Europe 27:38.430 --> 27:41.640 to distract him while he was trying to fight the crusade as 27:41.640 --> 27:42.060 well. 27:43.470 --> 27:45.990 Gary: And the crusade as the third crusade, I think, is one 27:45.990 --> 27:49.260 of those that it's one that maybe a lot of people know about 27:49.260 --> 27:51.810 or if they hear of battles or things like that. It's the third 27:51.810 --> 27:56.070 you say that kind of gets the focus. And it's it's one of the 27:56.070 --> 27:59.790 ones that it's kings of Europe. Philip and Richard, against one 27:59.790 --> 28:03.540 of the greatest, I guess, Muslim warriors or rulers of the time, 28:03.870 --> 28:06.060 maybe all time. And that's of Saladin. 28:06.600 --> 28:07.680 Wayne: So. Correct. Yeah. 28:08.160 --> 28:12.180 Gary: Did this rivalry spring up during the Crusade or was it was 28:12.180 --> 28:15.780 Saladin taking over in the in the Middle East? And Richard and 28:15.780 --> 28:17.880 Philip had to go and put him down? 28:18.780 --> 28:22.950 Wayne: Yes. Well, Saladin was the victor of the great battle, 28:22.950 --> 28:27.180 that hot air. And he was the Muslim leader who had then 28:27.600 --> 28:33.840 reconquered Jerusalem for Islam. And that that made him, if you 28:33.840 --> 28:39.650 like, a boogeyman for all of Western Europe, you know, But in 28:39.660 --> 28:43.500 fact, he was a it was a very astute political 28:44.610 --> 28:49.890 individual. He managed to unite Islam, really, which had up 28:49.890 --> 28:54.300 until quite recently been quite disunited and I think 28:54.300 --> 28:58.350 significantly quickly became very disunited after his death 28:58.350 --> 29:03.580 as well. So he was a very formidable character, a very 29:03.580 --> 29:08.490 estate politician, a capable military leader. But I guess the 29:08.490 --> 29:13.740 rivalry between him and Richard was was not really a fierce one 29:13.740 --> 29:19.800 until they started to come into close proximity to each other in 29:19.890 --> 29:23.850 or out from either the Christian kingdom of Jerusalem or what was 29:23.850 --> 29:28.740 left of it after the victory of Saladin. And that really 29:30.290 --> 29:35.520 created they the story, if you like, of Richard and Saladin as 29:35.870 --> 29:42.210 the great military rivals of the medieval era, something which I 29:42.210 --> 29:46.440 think even resonates a bit today. The influence of the Crusades, 29:46.980 --> 29:50.940 at least in psychological terms, I think is still quite 29:50.940 --> 29:54.810 significant in the Middle East. Even now in some parts of the 29:54.810 --> 29:59.490 Middle East, Saladin is still regarded as an iconic Muslim 29:59.490 --> 30:04.170 leader. And Richard, same as they the ultimate crusader enemy, 30:04.170 --> 30:08.190 in fact. So certainly once they started to come into close 30:08.190 --> 30:12.060 military contact with each other, a face, maybe slightly 30:12.060 --> 30:15.930 exaggerated rivalry did come about. It was certainly written 30:15.930 --> 30:20.880 off as a fierce rivalry. I don't think on a personal level it was 30:20.880 --> 30:24.960 perhaps as fast as perhaps the chroniclers of the time might 30:24.960 --> 30:26.280 have suggested it to be. 30:26.820 --> 30:30.390 Gary: And it's I guess it's easier to depict the head of one 30:30.390 --> 30:32.610 army against the head of the other army and kind of 30:32.610 --> 30:34.590 personalize it that way, as opposed. 30:34.910 --> 30:35.050 Wayne: To. 30:35.070 --> 30:37.230 Gary: Actually two armies going at each other. 30:37.440 --> 30:40.920 Wayne: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, both ladies were, 30:40.980 --> 30:44.340 you know, the figureheads of the respective armies, and it was a 30:44.340 --> 30:49.500 natural thing to do. Medieval chroniclers were what kind of 30:49.500 --> 30:54.210 very good at that kind of, you know, shaping things to give a 30:54.210 --> 30:58.950 coherent storyline and not necessarily always letting the 30:58.950 --> 31:02.820 facts get in the way. But, you know, they certainly painted 31:03.150 --> 31:04.470 this as a fierce rival. 31:05.070 --> 31:09.210 Gary: And so were these two men Richard's led. And they have 31:09.210 --> 31:12.180 like a warriors respect for each other. Were they bitter enemies 31:12.180 --> 31:15.000 or were they just kind of indifferent and like they were 31:15.000 --> 31:16.350 just going after the other army? 31:16.680 --> 31:18.690 Wayne: It's an interesting question. I mean, it's quite 31:18.690 --> 31:22.320 difficult to answer because the two of them never actually met. 31:22.890 --> 31:27.420 But from what I what I've looked at and what I read on the 31:27.420 --> 31:31.380 subject and looking at the various documents in particular, 31:32.040 --> 31:37.770 what comes across is certainly a respect for each other. We do, 31:37.770 --> 31:42.720 interestingly have at least one direct comment that is 31:42.720 --> 31:48.030 attributed to Martin about Richard, and that was that he 31:48.030 --> 31:52.500 regarded him as a great warrior, though someone who was perhaps a 31:52.500 --> 31:57.990 bit rash and did not always maximise the potential impact of 31:57.990 --> 32:03.690 his military prowess by my in political actions. So I think 32:03.690 --> 32:09.780 Saladin had big respect for him, but maybe now that he was not 32:09.780 --> 32:13.110 the complete king and the complete statesman, perhaps in 32:13.110 --> 32:16.500 contrast to himself, he didn't say that in so many words, but 32:16.500 --> 32:20.190 maybe he was implying, Well, I am more politically astute of 32:20.190 --> 32:24.420 Richard's and for Richard's power. I think, you know, 32:24.570 --> 32:27.570 there's not much directly attributed to Richard about 32:27.570 --> 32:32.940 Saladin, But from what we can tell, he certainly had a degree 32:32.940 --> 32:38.970 of respect for him. But he was Richard. Richard, consistent may 32:38.970 --> 32:43.590 one significant military actions against Saladin, but he never 32:43.590 --> 32:47.520 actually won the war. So, you know, maybe that in itself would 32:47.520 --> 32:50.220 have led to some kind of grudging respect from Richard. 32:50.220 --> 32:51.090 For Saladin. 32:51.510 --> 32:53.610 Gary: Like you said, they won the battles, but they didn't win 32:53.610 --> 32:56.670 the war. So Richard goes into the crusade to win back 32:56.670 --> 33:00.390 Jerusalem. Did that happen? And how did the crusade end up 33:00.390 --> 33:01.370 ending it? 33:01.430 --> 33:05.670 Wayne: It never did happen. And you know, from map respect in 33:05.670 --> 33:09.210 black and white terms, you you might even say the Crusades 33:09.330 --> 33:13.130 should be considered as a failure because the ultimate aim, 33:13.230 --> 33:17.310 the recovery of Jerusalem, didn't happen as a result of the 33:17.310 --> 33:21.780 crusade. And effectively, I think what happened in the 33:21.780 --> 33:26.700 crusade is it kind of fizzled out because both Saladin and 33:26.700 --> 33:31.140 Richard had other concerns. They worried that Richard in 33:31.140 --> 33:36.090 particular had this terrible political problem back in 33:36.090 --> 33:40.260 Western Europe and must have said that he would not have a 33:40.260 --> 33:46.410 kingdom to go back to. So to that respect, he obviously would 33:46.410 --> 33:50.310 have wanted to return to sort that out before things had gone 33:50.310 --> 33:55.830 too far. He'd already effectively been left by the 33:55.830 --> 34:00.240 French king, Philip Augustus. Ultimately, some of the French 34:00.240 --> 34:03.960 stayed, but they ended up falling out with Richard and 34:03.960 --> 34:08.430 going their own ways too. So Richard lost a good part of his 34:08.430 --> 34:13.920 army, Saladin, and on the other hand was, I think, tired. He had 34:13.920 --> 34:18.690 been seriously ill a few years before and he did not long 34:18.690 --> 34:23.010 survive the crusade. He died the year after the crusade finished. 34:23.490 --> 34:27.930 So he was anxious, I think, some kind of peace settlement to be 34:27.930 --> 34:32.430 made, because he suspected that as soon as the Crusader army 34:32.430 --> 34:36.870 made his way back to Western Europe, as most of it indeed did, 34:37.440 --> 34:42.360 things would return to normal and he would be able to reassert 34:42.360 --> 34:46.020 his authority. But, you know, the big question after is then, 34:46.020 --> 34:49.890 for example, he would never give up Jerusalem because that would 34:50.100 --> 34:53.910 effectively damage his reputation so much. So what 34:53.910 --> 34:57.240 ended it ended up at the conclusion on the crusade was a 34:57.240 --> 35:02.520 negotiated truce to last for a few years with some of the lost 35:02.520 --> 35:07.380 crusader territories being restored to the the Crusaders. 35:08.100 --> 35:12.000 So it cannot therefore be felt that the crusade was an 35:12.000 --> 35:17.400 unmitigated disaster. But on the other hand, Jerusalem remained 35:17.400 --> 35:21.720 firmly in Muslim hands. So to that respect, Richard failed to 35:21.720 --> 35:23.550 achieve his ultimate objectives. 35:24.570 --> 35:26.880 Gary: So somewhat of a compromise. Is there a tie at 35:26.880 --> 35:29.190 the end that will give you a little bit back, but we're not 35:29.190 --> 35:31.980 going to give you the the prize that they were looking for? 35:32.670 --> 35:36.900 Wayne: Exactly. Exactly. It was you know, it was a truce. It 35:36.900 --> 35:41.250 wasn't really an end to the war. It was just like a break, if you 35:41.250 --> 35:45.720 like. And there was always the option. Then in three or so 35:45.720 --> 35:50.790 years time, the Crusader would restart again. Ironically, by 35:50.790 --> 35:54.390 the time that period of past, Saladin was dead and Richard was 35:54.390 --> 35:57.660 in prison, so neither of them were really in a position to do 35:57.660 --> 35:58.570 much about it. 35:58.640 --> 36:01.620 Gary: All right. All right. Let's get to that part, Richard. 36:01.860 --> 36:06.210 The crusade ends. Richard heads back to the Kingdom of England, 36:06.630 --> 36:10.980 and then on his way, he gets a captured and arrested in Austria. 36:11.220 --> 36:14.730 It was just part of the brewing, I guess, rivalries throughout 36:14.730 --> 36:17.340 Europe against him that caused him to be captured. 36:18.000 --> 36:22.530 Wayne: Absolutely. Although The circumstances which led to it 36:22.530 --> 36:26.790 really did start with the crusade itself. But at the time, 36:26.790 --> 36:30.630 Europe, certainly Western Europe was falling into three major 36:30.660 --> 36:35.370 camps. The first camp was the the English empire, if you like, 36:35.370 --> 36:39.090 the Angevin empire, as it was called. So that would have been 36:39.090 --> 36:42.420 England in large parts of France that would have been one camp. 36:43.260 --> 36:48.300 Then you had a very confident and an emerging French king, 36:48.300 --> 36:53.100 Philip, who clearly wanted to win as much land in France from 36:53.100 --> 36:56.730 Richard as he could. That was the second camp. And the third 36:56.730 --> 37:00.660 camp was what was called the Holy Roman Empire, which 37:00.660 --> 37:05.040 stretched out from Germany through Austria into Italy. And 37:05.160 --> 37:10.650 Leopold of Austria was very much in this third camp of a holy 37:10.650 --> 37:15.180 Roman Empire. He was a relative of the Holy Roman Emperor. And 37:15.180 --> 37:20.580 great. What had happened was that during the Crusade, Leopold 37:20.580 --> 37:25.290 had been present at the great Siege of Acre, one of the great 37:25.590 --> 37:30.990 peace sieges of the Middle Ages, and the Crusade succeeded. And 37:31.130 --> 37:34.920 in winning the stage and conquering anchor, which was a 37:34.920 --> 37:39.810 huge, hugely significant moment because I think it was a very 37:39.810 --> 37:44.430 important sea port and ultimately reopened the the 37:44.520 --> 37:49.200 former question of Jerusalem to the Crusaders at the end of the 37:49.200 --> 37:54.010 siege. Richard and King Philip of France had been leading 37:54.010 --> 37:58.560 Richard in large part is there, but there have been a third 37:58.560 --> 38:03.930 party led by what we might call simplistically now Germans, 38:04.800 --> 38:10.650 including the Austrians, led by Duke Leopold of Austria. And as 38:10.650 --> 38:16.020 the siege ended, Richard Philip and Leopold all put their 38:16.020 --> 38:20.940 banners up. I wouldn't say it's a that might sound like very, 38:21.420 --> 38:26.280 very much about pride and status, and to some extent it was about 38:26.280 --> 38:29.310 art, but it was also about something far more practical. 38:29.730 --> 38:34.200 When you put your banner up over a city at the end of the siege, 38:34.530 --> 38:38.790 you were staking your claim to a share of the plunder and of the 38:38.790 --> 38:44.130 proceeds of the siege. So Leopold put his flag up 38:44.130 --> 38:48.720 alongside those Richard and Philip, and the next thing we 38:48.720 --> 38:53.670 know, Duke Leopold Flag is lying in a ditch where it had been 38:53.670 --> 38:58.740 thrown from the walls into a ditch and very much, if you like, 38:58.740 --> 39:03.450 a rebuttal of his right to any share in the proceeds of the 39:03.450 --> 39:07.560 crusade. So he shortly afterwards left there, 39:07.590 --> 39:12.420 understandably in a bit of a huff, and he blamed Richard 39:12.690 --> 39:18.030 probably directly for this action. Richard then had to 39:18.030 --> 39:22.710 return home and things had got very complicated by now because 39:22.710 --> 39:27.090 it was very difficult for him to make his way home in a way that 39:27.090 --> 39:31.710 he would avoid his enemies. So very difficult to travel, for 39:31.710 --> 39:37.140 example, through France, because the French king Philip would 39:37.140 --> 39:40.650 have been back for a while now. We certainly tried to capture 39:40.650 --> 39:46.020 him, but he was also very unsure of the actions of the Holy Roman 39:46.020 --> 39:51.630 Empire. The Emperor and Emery was a very manipulative, almost 39:51.700 --> 39:56.160 Machiavellian figure, I think not the sort of man you would 39:56.160 --> 40:01.740 want to fall into the hands of. So Richard tried to avoid both 40:01.740 --> 40:04.650 of these, but it was very difficult to find a route that 40:04.650 --> 40:09.210 did so. And unfortunately for him, it was blown off course. 40:09.210 --> 40:16.170 His ship was blown ashore in the lands of Duke Leopold and ashore 40:16.290 --> 40:20.520 thereafter. He was captured whilst trying to make his way 40:20.520 --> 40:24.960 across Austria in disguise. Someone saw through his disguise 40:24.960 --> 40:28.890 and he was seized. Then basically put on trial for 40:28.890 --> 40:34.260 various alleged offences which ultimately led to a huge ransom 40:34.260 --> 40:36.000 being negotiated for him. 40:36.690 --> 40:39.240 Gary: It sounds like coming home from the Crusaders almost more 40:39.240 --> 40:41.850 dangerous than being on the crusade. It's tough to get from 40:41.850 --> 40:46.020 the Middle East to England over the continent when everyone on 40:46.020 --> 40:47.820 the continents out to get you. 40:48.480 --> 40:52.140 Wayne: Exactly. Yes. Yes. He was certainly very unlucky in the 40:52.140 --> 40:57.780 way things had gone politically. And he was very conscious really 40:57.780 --> 41:00.630 from the outset that this was going to be a very dangerous 41:00.630 --> 41:04.710 journey. And unfortunately for him, things just didn't go to 41:04.710 --> 41:09.540 plan. And, you know, he was captured and ironically, he was 41:09.540 --> 41:14.160 criticised for abandoning the crusade, even though he was the 41:14.160 --> 41:17.760 last king to leave. And even though the man doing the 41:17.760 --> 41:22.680 criticism of the Emperor Henry, the Holy Roman emperor, had 41:22.680 --> 41:25.260 never stepped foot on the crusade. So I found that 41:25.260 --> 41:26.250 slightly ironic. 41:26.430 --> 41:29.820 Gary: The ransom was paid and Richard gets to get back to 41:29.820 --> 41:32.520 England. Now, earlier we discussed that Richard faced a 41:32.520 --> 41:36.900 revolt from his brother John Did Philip Augustus of France take 41:36.900 --> 41:40.290 part in their help spur that revolt, or was he still in the 41:40.290 --> 41:41.370 Crusades at that point? 41:42.060 --> 41:46.020 Wayne: No, he was he was very much instrumental in John's 41:46.020 --> 41:50.280 revolt against Richard. He returned back at least 18 months 41:50.280 --> 41:52.920 before Richard did. And then, of course, Richard was further 41:52.980 --> 41:56.460 delayed by being held captive for a year. So he'd been in 41:56.460 --> 42:00.900 France for over ten years by the time Richard got back. And 42:00.900 --> 42:04.290 certainly during Richard's absence, especially after 42:04.290 --> 42:09.930 Richard had been captured and held for he really stirred the 42:09.930 --> 42:14.790 pot, he realized that John was extremely personally ambitious 42:15.330 --> 42:20.640 and he really saw that he could benefit greatly from this. He 42:20.640 --> 42:25.500 was, I think, a much stronger character and a much more able 42:25.500 --> 42:30.900 character than John. And he was able to dangle various carrots 42:30.900 --> 42:36.300 in front of John in return for his support. And John was quick 42:36.330 --> 42:41.130 to take it to try and take advantage of that. So I think 42:41.130 --> 42:45.630 Philip was very much the senior partner in encouraging John to 42:45.630 --> 42:50.520 revolt and it was only the actions of an area of Aquitaine 42:50.520 --> 42:54.360 and some of richest council in England that managed to keep 42:54.360 --> 42:58.800 John under some sort of control for while, but even may 42:58.890 --> 43:04.090 eventually lost control. John went to France. He very openly 43:05.340 --> 43:09.900 did allegiance to Philip for the launch of in Lands in Normandy 43:09.900 --> 43:16.650 in particular. And it was it was really, I think, Philip really 43:16.650 --> 43:21.480 driving the revolt. I say John was very much in cahoots with 43:21.480 --> 43:23.550 him, but very much the junior partner. 43:23.550 --> 43:27.000 Gary: I think Richard gets back from the crusade and then he's 43:27.000 --> 43:30.600 Philip is back two years prior trying to take his lands that he 43:30.600 --> 43:33.750 had gained through his mother and his father in France. It was 43:33.750 --> 43:36.930 Philip's involvement in that revolt that I guess leads 43:36.930 --> 43:41.400 Richard into another war, and that's against France to get his 43:41.400 --> 43:42.150 lands back. 43:42.480 --> 43:46.380 Wayne: And the interesting thing about that for me is that you 43:46.380 --> 43:50.550 asked the and about whether there was a bit of a rivalry 43:50.550 --> 43:54.510 between Richard and Saladin. I think there was a much more 43:54.510 --> 43:58.440 bitter rivalry between Richard and Philip named Richard seems 43:58.440 --> 44:03.660 to have taken in its actions in the Crusades very personally. He 44:03.660 --> 44:07.410 considered it a treacherous state of affairs that while he 44:07.410 --> 44:11.910 was in prison, Philip had been attacking his lands and taking a 44:11.910 --> 44:16.110 number of them off him. In fairness to Philip, this was not 44:16.110 --> 44:20.520 just a one way street where Richard had been effectively 44:20.520 --> 44:26.430 engaged to Philip's sister, Alice, for over 25 years without 44:26.430 --> 44:30.630 actually going through with a marriage. And early on in the 44:30.630 --> 44:36.210 crusade, he had openly rejected Alice and taken as his wife 44:36.210 --> 44:41.340 bearing Aria, a Spanish princess, which was a very public 44:41.340 --> 44:46.260 humiliation for Philip. So I don't think we can we can paint 44:46.950 --> 44:51.120 Richard as being squeaky clean here either. But there was a 44:51.120 --> 44:56.610 very bitter and intense rivalry between these two men, which 44:56.610 --> 45:01.290 really dominated the latter part of Richard's right. I mean, to 45:01.290 --> 45:05.040 me, far more than even the Crusades that did, you know. So 45:05.040 --> 45:09.840 Richard has a reputation for squeezing England dry of its 45:09.840 --> 45:15.150 money, and that's probably true. But it was as much, if not more, 45:15.450 --> 45:19.440 to recover his lands in France that he did that as he did the 45:19.440 --> 45:20.160 crusade. 45:20.760 --> 45:24.720 Gary: He was engaged to Philip's sister and he liked it for 25 45:24.720 --> 45:26.060 years, which is a long engage. 45:26.070 --> 45:27.600 Wayne: A long time indeed. 45:27.600 --> 45:30.720 Gary: And did he meet the wife that he ended up marrying on The 45:30.720 --> 45:34.080 Crusade is what was the reason that he decided not to marry 45:34.080 --> 45:36.930 Philip's sister and go with the Spanish princess? 45:37.350 --> 45:40.860 Wayne: That's a good question. I mean, it is a little bit unclear 45:40.860 --> 45:46.590 how long he, the Spanish princess wearing Aria of Navarre, 45:46.620 --> 45:52.200 had actually known each other by the records, are not 100% 45:52.770 --> 45:57.630 persuasive on that. But the arrangements to marry Baron Aria 45:57.630 --> 46:02.310 had taken place before he set out on Crusade, and they 46:02.310 --> 46:07.350 actually got married during the crusade on Cyprus on their way 46:07.350 --> 46:12.690 out to the crusade. And I think the the reasons for not going 46:12.690 --> 46:17.250 ahead to the marriage with Alice and then marrying the Spanish 46:17.250 --> 46:21.510 princess, both of those were political. I think he felt it 46:21.510 --> 46:25.020 was a card in his hand not to go through with the marriage to 46:25.020 --> 46:28.680 Alice. You know, it wasn't just him. His father, Henry. The 46:28.680 --> 46:32.910 second had also stopped the marriage from going. There were 46:32.910 --> 46:37.380 even allegations that Henry, the second, had had an illicit 46:37.380 --> 46:42.180 relationship with Richard's bride to be, Alice. So it all 46:42.180 --> 46:48.270 got tangled. And I think Richard always saw Philip as a rival. He 46:48.270 --> 46:52.620 felt it would be more in his interest to protect his his 46:52.710 --> 46:57.120 frontiers in the south of France by entering into an alliance 46:57.120 --> 47:03.120 with the Spanish kingdom of Navarre than to to marry into 47:03.210 --> 47:07.590 Philip's family. So I think there were political and 47:07.590 --> 47:11.850 military reasons for this to protect his very important 47:11.850 --> 47:15.710 southern flank in France, which Richard was very attached to, 47:15.720 --> 47:20.400 which was, I think, probably more in love with his lands in 47:20.400 --> 47:24.420 France than he was his lands in England. So I think politics a 47:24.420 --> 47:28.650 military reason they were behind this change of allegiance. 47:29.370 --> 47:32.950 Gary: On the surface, it would seem more advantageous to to 47:33.030 --> 47:36.360 marry the sister of Philip and kind of unite those lands in 47:36.360 --> 47:39.660 France. But I guess on the other side, as you pointed out, the 47:39.660 --> 47:43.140 southern part of France is where, you know, if you solidify that 47:43.140 --> 47:46.860 alliance and then the Spain isn't coming into to invade that 47:46.860 --> 47:47.130 way. 47:47.880 --> 47:52.170 Wayne: Exactly. Exactly. I, I suspect Philip and Richard had 47:52.170 --> 47:55.950 known each other for a number of years before they left on 47:55.950 --> 48:00.270 Crusade. I suspect neither of them trusted each other one iota. 48:00.960 --> 48:06.240 And I think Richard quickly identified his main potential 48:06.240 --> 48:10.890 opponent was Philip, and I'm sure it would be the same the 48:10.890 --> 48:14.010 other way round with Philip regarding Richard as his 48:14.010 --> 48:18.660 greatest threat because both of them coveted the same thing, 48:18.780 --> 48:23.160 which was ultimately to be the dominant force in France, I 48:23.160 --> 48:26.400 think even when they were on the surface on good terms and at 48:26.400 --> 48:31.710 times they had been in theory extremely close friends. Even 48:31.710 --> 48:34.890 then, I suspect in the background there was no real 48:34.890 --> 48:40.170 trust and perhaps even no real liking between the two men. Some 48:40.170 --> 48:43.830 of it almost seems personal, to be honest. You know, it's very 48:43.830 --> 48:48.420 easy to get seduced by the stories of politics and 48:48.420 --> 48:52.050 alliances and things. But don't forget that we're dealing with 48:52.050 --> 48:56.610 two human beings here as well. And I suspect there was a very 48:56.610 --> 49:00.090 human mistrust between both of the men. 49:00.720 --> 49:03.240 Gary: Richard comes back from a crusade. He spent three years or 49:03.240 --> 49:07.080 so on a crusade and then his fight in France to get his lands 49:07.080 --> 49:10.110 back and is dispute with Philip. And this is where he gets 49:10.110 --> 49:14.580 wounded. And while surveying one of the castles, I see it's shot 49:14.580 --> 49:17.250 with a bow or with a crossbow, correct? 49:17.250 --> 49:17.630 Wayne: Yeah. 49:17.670 --> 49:20.550 Gary: All went into his shoulder. Could he have been saved if 49:20.550 --> 49:24.510 there was a better surgeon? You know, the wound was it was it 49:24.510 --> 49:26.160 fatal from the from the beginning? 49:26.610 --> 49:29.940 Wayne: It was always dangerous from the beginning. I think 49:29.940 --> 49:34.860 medieval surgery, especially in Western Europe, was pretty much 49:34.860 --> 49:39.270 a lottery. If you got wounded, you were probably more at risk 49:39.270 --> 49:43.260 of dying from infection and from the wound itself. There is 49:43.260 --> 49:48.330 always a real danger, even from relatively minor wounds, that an 49:48.330 --> 49:52.320 infection would set in and that you would die. The Muslims 49:52.320 --> 49:56.640 ironically, had access to far better medical knowledge than 49:56.640 --> 50:01.470 the Crusaders did. So there was always a real risk that Richard 50:01.470 --> 50:05.640 could die from this wound in the shoulder, which ultimately went 50:05.640 --> 50:10.440 gangrenous. That said, the accounts of his death, he was 50:10.440 --> 50:14.520 besieging a mine, a castle in the south of France. The story 50:14.520 --> 50:17.820 goes, because the Lord of the castle advanced and treasure, 50:17.850 --> 50:24.030 which Richard wanted for himself, and he was basically besieging 50:24.030 --> 50:28.260 this castle with a group of mercenaries. And that does not 50:28.260 --> 50:32.220 seem to have been very good medical support with him. I 50:32.220 --> 50:36.240 think perhaps this was, after all, expected to be quite a mine, 50:36.240 --> 50:40.410 a relatively low risk siege. Certainly when Richard was hit, 50:40.770 --> 50:44.880 there appears there is no very good medical facilities to hand. 50:45.210 --> 50:49.530 The accounts we have suggest that Richard was butchered 50:49.530 --> 50:54.480 somewhat in trying to remove the boat. So it may within a very 50:54.480 --> 50:58.260 short time it became obvious even to Richard, that he was not 50:58.260 --> 51:02.070 going to survive this, not because of the wound personally, 51:02.070 --> 51:03.540 but because of the infection. 51:04.410 --> 51:06.870 Gary: So then he dies, I guess, unfortunately for England, he 51:06.870 --> 51:12.090 dies childless. Did he set up his brother John to be king? And 51:12.090 --> 51:15.120 was John accepted as king or was there any kind of succession 51:15.120 --> 51:17.340 crisis that happened during that period? 51:18.210 --> 51:21.810 Wayne: That that that's a good question, because he never 51:21.810 --> 51:26.820 formally designated John, as is there. And there was a small 51:26.850 --> 51:32.760 succession crisis. Richard had a nephew of Brittany, and at one 51:32.760 --> 51:37.260 stage he had talked about making off his heir when he was not on 51:37.260 --> 51:42.330 very good terms with John, but that had long gone out the 51:42.330 --> 51:46.920 window, if you like. And Arthur was not formally designated heir, 51:47.280 --> 51:52.530 neither was John. But the crown of England and the French 51:52.530 --> 51:56.970 territories quickly passed to John. Most people staying there 51:57.170 --> 52:01.620 seemed to accept that John was the best choice as a replacement 52:01.620 --> 52:05.190 for Richard. Things changed somewhat, ironically, when 52:05.490 --> 52:10.980 Arthur was captured and then subsequently murdered, according 52:10.980 --> 52:16.530 to some accounts by John himself. This had a very dramatic 52:16.530 --> 52:23.010 negative effect on John's reputation and on his great 52:23.010 --> 52:28.110 rival, formerly Richard's great rival, King Philip. France was 52:28.110 --> 52:35.220 very quick to use the death of Arthur as a reason to to punish 52:35.220 --> 52:39.660 John and to take his French territories off him, which he 52:39.660 --> 52:44.460 proceeded to do. So there was no immediate succession crisis. And 52:44.460 --> 52:49.020 John, as I say, became widely accepted as king. But his 52:49.020 --> 52:53.310 treatment of Arthur turned out to be a politically extremely 52:53.310 --> 52:57.120 clumsy and rather foolish move which came back to haunt John. 52:57.540 --> 53:00.090 Gary: It sounds like Philip was taking any opportunity to get 53:00.090 --> 53:03.390 some land away from England at that time and get it back into 53:03.390 --> 53:04.380 France's hands. 53:05.140 --> 53:07.800 Wayne: Exactly Or not? Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, 53:07.800 --> 53:12.750 every chance Philip had, he took and he was a very, very small 53:12.750 --> 53:17.280 king, You know, he really built the power of medieval France 53:17.400 --> 53:20.760 from relatively humble beginnings. He made France the 53:20.760 --> 53:25.020 great European power. I'd say he certainly was a hugely capable, 53:25.110 --> 53:28.320 if somewhat devious and Machiavellian figure in his own 53:28.320 --> 53:28.770 right. 53:28.950 --> 53:31.680 Gary: Richard is looked at as kind of the warrior king, you 53:31.680 --> 53:34.190 know, fighting the Crusades. He had the battle against France to 53:34.200 --> 53:38.430 to win those lands back. Was he liked by the population of 53:38.430 --> 53:41.550 England? And did he have a domestic policy or any kind of 53:41.550 --> 53:45.570 policy at home that was anything other than taxing the people for 53:45.570 --> 53:46.170 the wars? 53:46.560 --> 53:50.550 Wayne: I don't really think he had much of a domestic policy in 53:50.550 --> 53:54.540 England outside of what was in his own best personal interests. 53:55.200 --> 54:00.780 And to me, England comes across as being a source of power and 54:00.780 --> 54:03.990 wealth. Obviously those two things are quite closely 54:03.990 --> 54:09.330 connected and I think everything in England was subservient to 54:09.420 --> 54:15.600 his own personal interest, his own personal desires, both first 54:15.600 --> 54:20.490 of all, during the Crusades, then for his ransom, which cost 54:20.490 --> 54:23.820 an enormous amount of money, you could, of course, argue that 54:23.820 --> 54:27.270 wasn't really his fault. But nevertheless, you know, the 54:27.270 --> 54:31.140 policy was all about getting enough money to release Richard. 54:31.350 --> 54:35.550 And then finally, in some ways, in his most extreme form, to 54:35.550 --> 54:40.890 recover his lost lands in France. So I think England was never 54:40.890 --> 54:47.130 really his main priority other than as his most significant 54:47.130 --> 54:52.590 source of power. And wealth. And I don't really detect a strong 54:53.040 --> 54:56.940 love of England. You know, I detect a much stronger love of 54:57.120 --> 55:02.010 these French lands than is lands in England. I think in England 55:02.010 --> 55:07.500 itself he was to some extent respected as a mighty warrior. 55:08.370 --> 55:14.250 We have, remember to try and avoid judging the the the 12th 55:14.250 --> 55:18.390 century from the perspective of the 21st century, because what 55:18.390 --> 55:22.680 we might consider to be a good king now may be full of liberal 55:22.680 --> 55:28.020 principles and Democratic ideas, that kind of thing. That's not 55:28.020 --> 55:32.250 really how 12th century medieval Europe generally worked, but by 55:32.250 --> 55:36.870 the standards of his own time, I think he was regarded as a very 55:36.870 --> 55:40.590 strong warrior and there would have been a certain pride in 55:40.590 --> 55:44.910 that in England. And I think as time went on, particularly in 55:44.910 --> 55:48.870 the latter years of his reign, when taxation started to become 55:48.870 --> 55:53.130 have they met or even isolated outbreaks of rebellion in 55:53.130 --> 55:58.440 England, we can see an increasing disaffection with 55:58.440 --> 56:04.290 Richard from England, maybe not once, but maybe not completely 56:04.290 --> 56:09.240 dangerous, but certainly symptomatic of a king who had, 56:09.330 --> 56:13.590 to some extent in some quarters lost his popularity in England. 56:14.040 --> 56:16.410 Gary: Richard the Lionheart is definitely the king that 56:16.590 --> 56:20.040 everyone kind of knows the name. What is his ultimate legacy to 56:20.040 --> 56:21.480 England and to history? 56:22.050 --> 56:26.910 Wayne: Well, I think in England itself, his legacy is that is as 56:27.090 --> 56:32.760 a kind of inspirational, maybe semi legendary figure, Richard 56:32.760 --> 56:37.470 became regarded as the ultimate chivalric warrior. There is a 56:37.470 --> 56:42.210 very impressive 19th century statue of Richard outside the 56:42.210 --> 56:46.260 Houses of Parliament in London. Clearly, in Victorian times he 56:46.260 --> 56:50.940 was seen as a great warrior, an iconic, perhaps in some ways an 56:50.940 --> 56:54.270 empire builder. And there's a resonance with the Victorian 56:54.270 --> 57:00.150 view of empire there as well. And I think I think that's his 57:00.150 --> 57:06.690 main legacy as a symbolically inspirational figure. As always 57:06.690 --> 57:10.380 in history, the facts don't really matter too much. It's the 57:10.440 --> 57:14.790 perception which is often more powerful than he was seen as 57:14.790 --> 57:19.260 this chivalric figure in some quarters. Now as an inspiration 57:19.380 --> 57:23.880 and, you know, as a mighty warrior. His legacy on history, 57:23.880 --> 57:28.950 I think, is more complex than that. It's very interesting that 57:28.950 --> 57:35.550 when we had all of the issues in the Middle East post 1911, you 57:35.550 --> 57:39.960 may remember there was an adamant offer of difficulty when 57:39.960 --> 57:45.720 President George W Bush mentioned the Crusades as as a 57:45.720 --> 57:49.680 kind of word to be associated with the military campaign in 57:49.680 --> 57:54.000 the Middle East. And Osama bin Laden was very quick to pick up 57:54.000 --> 57:57.210 on that as a negative thing, saying this is just the 57:57.210 --> 58:02.190 continuation of the Crusades. This is really, you know, part 58:02.190 --> 58:06.750 of a 800 year old battle. Again, whether that's true or not does 58:06.750 --> 58:09.840 not really matter. It's the perception which is more 58:09.840 --> 58:13.440 powerful. And it's very interesting that he named 58:13.440 --> 58:18.330 certain individuals as being significant characters, if you 58:18.330 --> 58:22.650 like, on the enemy Christian side during the Crusades. And he 58:22.650 --> 58:27.600 picked out Richard for personal mention. I found that very 58:27.840 --> 58:33.690 interesting and powerful that 800 years after Rich's death, he 58:33.690 --> 58:39.030 still used as a negative representative of the Christian 58:39.030 --> 58:43.680 enemy. In some parts of this ongoing difficult situation we 58:43.680 --> 58:47.580 have between some parts of Islam and the rest of the world. 58:47.670 --> 58:50.970 Gary: Definitely left an impact. The battles that he wanders 58:50.970 --> 58:53.730 character in that part of the world. And he certainly brings 58:53.730 --> 58:56.940 up emotion on all sides. You talk to people, historians or 58:56.940 --> 59:00.330 whatever, and and you speak of Richard, and they're either 59:00.420 --> 59:02.730 usually one way or the other. And he is a horrible king 59:02.730 --> 59:05.070 because he was never in England or he was a great king because 59:05.070 --> 59:08.760 he fought these wars for England and then won land back. And it's 59:08.760 --> 59:11.670 certainly an impassioned debate when you when you get into 59:11.670 --> 59:14.430 Richard Knox, not quite as impassioned as Richard the third. 59:14.430 --> 59:15.930 But certainly it's. Yeah. 59:16.620 --> 59:21.300 Wayne: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah He still stirs emotions, 59:21.300 --> 59:24.570 you know, and maybe a thousand years on, which I think is a 59:24.570 --> 59:29.430 mark that is certainly something incredibly powerful in his 59:29.430 --> 59:34.050 persona or at least his perceived persona. And I think 59:34.050 --> 59:38.010 that's the real legacy which lives on and continues to 59:38.160 --> 59:42.690 stimulate debate and divide people. Indeed, to this very day. 59:44.130 --> 59:46.470 Gary: Yes, you've covered Richard, the first Richard the 59:46.470 --> 59:49.770 Lionheart, and you've covered King Canute and you've covered 59:49.770 --> 59:53.400 the Crusades in your various books. Is there another book on 59:53.400 --> 59:54.400 the horizon for you? 59:55.140 --> 01:00:00.480 Wayne: There is, yes. So following on from my other early 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.310 medieval interest of the Viking period, I'm in the process of 01:00:05.550 --> 01:00:10.380 writing a book, which is a history of the Viking era from 01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:14.640 its beginning to its end. So really picking up the baton a 01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:18.990 bit from Canute, who was, you know, maybe the most successful 01:00:18.990 --> 01:00:23.070 and the most significant Viking figure, but that was part of a 01:00:23.070 --> 01:00:26.490 much wider movement. So that's my next book, which I'm 01:00:26.490 --> 01:00:31.950 currently working on and I think probably the middle of next year 01:00:31.950 --> 01:00:36.390 by the time that's, that's ready to go, that's currently taking 01:00:36.390 --> 01:00:38.280 up a lot of my research time. 01:00:39.150 --> 01:00:40.980 Gary: Can't wait for that one for sure. 01:00:41.790 --> 01:00:44.070 Wayne: Excellent. Now it has been fun so far. 01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:45.000 Gary: Yeah, I bet. 01:00:45.720 --> 01:00:46.120 Wayne: Yes. 01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:49.830 Gary: Working your fans connect with you. Do you have your own 01:00:49.830 --> 01:00:52.530 social media? Do you have a website, anything like that? 01:00:53.520 --> 01:00:58.140 Wayne: I'm on I'm on Facebook and LinkedIn and I'm actually in 01:00:58.140 --> 01:01:02.610 the process of setting up a blog. And so I'm planning to go live 01:01:02.610 --> 01:01:06.510 for that in a two or three months time, you know, to try 01:01:06.510 --> 01:01:10.470 and sort of stimulate debate and discussion where the particular 01:01:11.100 --> 01:01:15.240 emphasis on the medieval period, which as I say, is the one with 01:01:15.240 --> 01:01:18.450 interest, made the most. So as I say, in 2 to 3 months, I hope 01:01:18.450 --> 01:01:21.930 that will be up and running. And in the meantime, you know, I'm 01:01:21.930 --> 01:01:26.390 available on Facebook. Amazon have an all of their site on 01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:30.960 that as well. So I'm very happy to connect with anybody in way 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:31.650 they wish they. 01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:34.860 Gary: All right, great. Certainly links all your sites 01:01:35.490 --> 01:01:38.520 on our show notes here. Are there any any last words you 01:01:38.520 --> 01:01:39.960 like to say to your fans out there? 01:01:40.470 --> 01:01:43.680 Wayne: I just think the main thing is to be passionate and 01:01:44.040 --> 01:01:49.590 what you're interested in. You know, I find it very difficult. 01:01:49.590 --> 01:01:53.730 I mean, my reading was quite eclectic. For the first 30 years 01:01:53.730 --> 01:01:58.530 of my life. I would dip in here, I'd dip in there. But really for 01:01:58.530 --> 01:02:04.230 the last 15, 20 years, I focus in the Crusades, particularly 01:02:04.230 --> 01:02:07.740 medieval period a bit more generally. And I think it's 01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:12.240 great to identify with a particular aspect of history 01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:16.200 that particularly draws you in and just throw yourself with 01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:20.730 passion into that. I think the other thing is never be afraid 01:02:20.730 --> 01:02:24.330 to write something. I have some very good friends who are very 01:02:24.330 --> 01:02:28.470 knowledgeable and I keep on hassling them to write what we 01:02:28.470 --> 01:02:32.700 know down, because I think particularly in this age of 01:02:32.700 --> 01:02:37.560 internet and the like, it's never been easier to record your 01:02:37.560 --> 01:02:41.040 thoughts and the trouble is, if you don't write those thoughts 01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:46.140 down, one day they'll be gone. And I think that's a real sad 01:02:46.290 --> 01:02:51.000 loss of, you know, sometimes very specific, very interesting, 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:55.020 very useful knowledge. So never be afraid, never think you're 01:02:55.020 --> 01:03:00.030 not good enough. Just engage and and share your ideas and your 01:03:00.030 --> 01:03:03.660 thoughts with others. Never think you've got nothing to say 01:03:03.660 --> 01:03:07.080 because everybody, I think, has something to say and everybody 01:03:07.080 --> 01:03:09.000 brings a new perspective to things. 01:03:09.570 --> 01:03:12.150 Gary: Yeah, that's great. And it's, you know, not even at a 01:03:12.150 --> 01:03:14.580 national level, right? There's a lot of history being lost on 01:03:14.730 --> 01:03:18.420 just a family level or local level for all these the older 01:03:18.420 --> 01:03:22.020 generation that's going away and it never shares their stories 01:03:22.020 --> 01:03:23.880 sometimes. So it's it's. 01:03:24.120 --> 01:03:27.840 Wayne: Exactly you know, I can remember great characters in my 01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:32.070 family from when I was a kid. And, you know, I wish now I'd 01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:35.460 asked more questions of them when they were still around to 01:03:35.460 --> 01:03:40.320 ask those questions of And I'm now trying to make sure that I 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:44.100 write things down and, you know, at least our own legacy. I think 01:03:44.100 --> 01:03:45.120 it's good to do that. 01:03:45.690 --> 01:03:48.420 Gary: Earl Wain Bartlett, author of Richard The First The 01:03:48.420 --> 01:03:51.390 Crusader King of England Thank you for being on the show. 01:03:52.110 --> 01:03:54.360 Wayne: Thanks, Carrie. It's been a pleasure talking to you. 01:04:00.600 --> 01:04:02.580 Gary: I'd like to thank Wayne for taking the time to come on 01:04:02.580 --> 01:04:05.190 the show. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. You 01:04:05.190 --> 01:04:08.280 can pick up a copy of his book from Amberley Publishing or you 01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:10.950 can pick it up on Amazon. And again, all the links to his 01:04:10.950 --> 01:04:15.030 sites and books are at medieval archives dot com slash 79. 01:04:15.810 --> 01:04:18.240 Richard the Lionheart, The Crusader King of England is a 01:04:18.240 --> 01:04:21.960 great and a king that everyone seems to know. And now you can 01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:24.180 get to know him even better. What are your thoughts on 01:04:24.180 --> 01:04:27.090 Richard the Lionheart? Was he a great king for England or was he 01:04:27.090 --> 01:04:30.300 out for personal gain at England's expense? Send your 01:04:30.300 --> 01:04:33.070 comments and questions over to podcast at medieval archives 01:04:33.090 --> 01:04:37.230 Ao.com. Now, if you're enjoying the podcast, the easiest way to 01:04:37.230 --> 01:04:40.110 support us is to tell your friends about it. If you're 01:04:40.110 --> 01:04:42.300 listening in on your smartphone, you can send them a link right 01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:45.000 from your phone. The second easiest way to support the 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.270 podcast rate is on Apple Podcasts. To leave a rating, 01:04:48.270 --> 01:04:53.130 visit Medieval Archives XCOM slash iTunes. And if you feel 01:04:53.130 --> 01:04:55.320 you want to support even more, you can always give a donation 01:04:55.470 --> 01:04:58.440 at medieval archives dot com slash donate Any amount is 01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:02.010 appreciated and helps keep the podcast going. And don't forget 01:05:02.010 --> 01:05:06.150 to check out our website at medieval archives ao.com. Thanks 01:05:06.150 --> 01:05:08.670 for your time and thanks for your continued support. That's 01:05:08.670 --> 01:05:10.800 going to wrap it up for this week. Thanks again for 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.590 subscribing and listening to the Medieval Archives podcast. 01:05:13.830 --> 01:05:16.200 Illuminating the Dark Ages for the digital World. 01:05:16.260 --> 01:05:20.670 The Medieval Archives Podcast. The podcast for medieval news, 01:05:20.670 --> 01:05:24.480 history and entertainment. If you have any questions, comments, 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:27.690 topic, ideas, or would like to sponsor an episode. Send an 01:05:27.690 --> 01:05:31.770 email to podcast editor. Medieval Archives dot com. Audio 01:05:31.770 --> 01:05:35.050 files are welcome. You can call in your question or comment. 01:05:35.070 --> 01:05:42.240 27207221066. International and long distance charges may apply. 01:05:42.780 --> 01:05:46.560 Visit medieval archives at Medieval Archives dot com. You 01:05:46.560 --> 01:05:49.740 can also follow medieval archives on Facebook at 01:05:49.740 --> 01:05:54.180 Facebook.com. Forward slash medieval Archives and on Twitter 01:05:54.390 --> 01:05:58.320 at twitter.com. Forward slash medieval archive. For all your 01:05:58.320 --> 01:05:59.820 daily medieval updates.