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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Here on Equine Assisted World.

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We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

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established in the equine assisted field.

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This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

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physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

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These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

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Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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Today, I've got Kim Barthel.

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Am I, I'm pronouncing that correct?

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Not Barthel, but Barthel?

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Kim Barthel: You've got it, it's Barthel.

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Rupert Isaacson: From Canada.

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And the reason we've got Kim on today
is because our great friend, who's

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also going to come on here, Lianna
Tank, who's one of the most interesting

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human beings on the planet, basically.

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And I'm going to get her on here for
her own interview soon to do with her

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work with the most intense populations
of the criminally insane and how she

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is working neurobiology, neuroscience
and horses and all of that into that.

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She said, Rupert, there's this
lady, Kim Barthel, and you've got

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to bleeping, bleep, bleep, bleep,
bleep, bleep, have her on the show.

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And I looked at Kim
Barthel, and I went, bleep!

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She's kind of doing what we
do, but she was kind of doing

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it before we were doing it.

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And I'm talking about the
movement method end of what we do.

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Because remember that I'm
always encouraging all of us

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horse obsessed nutters to get
away from the horse sometimes.

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Because remember that.

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Not every person who comes
or kid that comes is going

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to be motivated by the horse.

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Sometimes they are motivated
on Monday, but not on Thursday.

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And even if they are motivated,
what are you doing with the rest

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of the time that they're with you?

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Because 90 percent of the
time they're not on the horse.

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And then also, what are you going to do
when you send that client home, either

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to their family, if it's a kid or home
themselves, if they're an adult, what?

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insights, what tools, what games, what
brain building stuff are you going

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to give them so that they can keep
it going as a 24 seven culture of

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movement and neuro plasticity at home?

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Because if not, then yeah, sure.

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Anytime they come to one of our centers,
it's better than a kick in the face, but

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we all know it won't get the job done.

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The only thing that gets the job done
is when there's a full participation.

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So that's why we need people like Kim
Barthel to come along and mentor us.

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So Kim, can you tell us who you are,
where you are, what you do, and why?

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Kim Barthel: This is a podcast,
so you can't see me smiling, but

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it's big from one ear to the other.

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And thank you for inviting me to
have this conversation with you.

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Rupert Isaacson: I have

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Kim Barthel: known, I have known
about you a very long time.

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Well,

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Rupert Isaacson: that sounds ominous.

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Kim Barthel: In a very positive way,
of course, because of the famous horse

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boy movie and my work in the field of
special needs, neurodiversity, autism

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for this is year number four zero.

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That makes me feel a bit.

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Nauseous, but that's when you

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Rupert Isaacson: don't look a day over 12.

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So you

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Kim Barthel: bless you.

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Bless you.

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So I I'm an occupational therapist
historically with many things that

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came after a specialty in neuroscience,
neurobiology sensory processing and

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movement and ended up working in the
field of trauma for most of my career.

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Sort of with deep love,
passion and unexpectedly.

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Rupert Isaacson: So more
trauma was a thing, right?

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Kim Barthel: Yeah.

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Before trauma was a thing, you
know, before it was a thing.

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And so, putting those pieces
together is what I'm interested in.

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The mind, body, spirit way of
thinking of human experience.

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The name of our company is
called Relationship Matters.

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And so, the tagline, the mission of
our company is to support the conscious

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evolution of the human spirit.

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and how that fits into the realm of
how people can become their best self.

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Rupert Isaacson: Now, you, in our little
preamble, said you are let's see if I

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get this right, a neurodevelopmental

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treatment instructor.

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Kim Barthel: You got it.

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What is that?

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Good, good question.

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Well, you know, in our, Rehab fields of
physical therapy, occupational therapy.

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There are lots of theories, frames of
reference, for how to support people in

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becoming better at moving their bodies.

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And neurodevelopmental
treatment was developed in the

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fifties by a lady named Mrs.

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Berta Bobath right after World War,
well, World War II, after World War

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II, because rehab in that era was not
really very clued in yet to the brain.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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Kim Barthel: And how to change
motor system, stroke, cerebral

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palsy kids with spina bifida.

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This was very new, polio
in that, in that era.

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And Mrs.

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Bobath.

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She learned through her own intuition,
as you know, most magical, amazing things

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are often, I think, intuitively channeled.

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This came from her,
and she was a sculptor.

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And through putting her hands on
people's bodies, she helped them learn

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to bring online The muscles that were
unaccessible, inaccessible, and to quieten

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the ones that were working too hard.

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And this technique she called handling,
putting your hands on the body to help.

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And you really deeply have to understand
anatomy, and how muscles work together.

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And so this theory became the way.

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That the popular mechanism of how
therapists would treat, especially

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children, with neuromotor challenges
in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, until today.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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What got you attracted to this?

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Kim Barthel: Kind of serendipitously,
really, because when I first

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graduated from university, my
love was the sensory systems.

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And I went to study with Dr.

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Jean Ayers.

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Rupert Isaacson: Why?

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Why was it the sensory
system to your first love?

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Kim Barthel: I don't know.

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You know how sometimes You
just know you know something.

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Rupert Isaacson: And it's

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Kim Barthel: like I've been doing this.

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Rupert Isaacson: Did you
have sensory issues yourself?

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Kim Barthel: Not, not, well, not really.

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Not, not in the way
that you think about it.

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Rupert Isaacson: Were you
surrounded by people that did?

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Kim Barthel: I, I really yes.

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I was exposed to, to children
with neurodiversity as a child.

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And I wanted to.

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And

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Rupert Isaacson: how come?

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How come?

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Because a lot of people
were not back then.

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That there was a lot of separation.

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Kim Barthel: I don't, I don't know
that I can answer that question to you.

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I think.

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They were in your

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Rupert Isaacson: school, they were in
your family, they were in your groups.

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No, just,

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Kim Barthel: Sort of, an exposure.

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And I guess a personality quality
of mine is I want to do, I have

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a deep desire to do something
meaningful and also different.

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So occupational therapy is a,
and was in the 80s, something

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that people didn't have a clue.

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What it, what it was.

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And when I started in my path
of university, this theory of

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sensory integration for kids with
autism was so fascinating to me

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because it was so mysterious.

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And it made sense that if I was
struggling with processing, it would

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impact the way I engage in the world.

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And, and that's why I started there.

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: What I find
intriguing is that in the 80s.

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Obviously through the 90s and early
2000s, the, the main way of looking at

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autism treatments was through behavior,
behavioral, you know, ABA and so on.

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And we're still battling with that to
some degree in the USA, even though in

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other parts of the world, it's, thank
God, you know, being consigned to history.

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How come you weren't drawn to that?

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Because that was the prevalent thing.

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And why to the sensory integration?

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And did you face opposition?

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Kim Barthel: Big time.

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I think that the behavioral
approach never resonated with me.

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And, and I guess that

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Rupert Isaacson: Why was that?

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Kim Barthel: Well, I guess that spiritual
component that I'm talking about over and

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over again here was just in my fabric.

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And I don't talk about, I don't
mean religious, I mean the

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compassionate state of human behavior.

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It just was.

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Who I was, and none of
that ever felt right.

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And Dr.

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Ayers was all about child,
the child guides treatment.

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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

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Kim Barthel: Child centered practice.

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Rupert Isaacson: And this
is back in the In the

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Kim Barthel: 80s.

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Yeah,

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Rupert Isaacson: because you know,
you know, our ethos with movement

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method is follow the child.

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Right.

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And I, but I was given that by Dr.

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Temple Grandin, who was of
course given that by her mother.

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So you could argue that movement
method is really a result of mentorship

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from Temple Grandin's mother.

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But even when I was trying to follow
that advice in the early days.

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In the.

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You know, early 2000s.

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My God, was the opposition vicious.

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You must have felt, you must
have faced a fair amount of

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Kim Barthel: I'm

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Rupert Isaacson: smiling

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Kim Barthel: because Temple Grandin
is a commonality between us.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Kim Barthel: At my very first conference,
I was 20, at the Ayers Clinic, I

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was introduced to Temple Grandin.

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So in a sense, Dr.

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Ayers gave her to me as my practicum.

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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

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Kim Barthel: And Temple was developing
her hug machine at the time.

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And she gave me the inside experience
of what it was like to live in a

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body that processed differently.

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And she could put words to it.

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And so I have known her 40 years, and
she was a profound influence on this

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idea of being with people where they are.

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Rupert Isaacson: What was, if you could
say in one line, what she told you that

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resonated in words, what did she say?

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Kim Barthel: Well, it's really
actually not what she said

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specifically as in one thing, it's
how she would give me feedback.

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So for example, she may not
remember this, and she might

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hope she giggles if she does.

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She said to me, Kim, why are you, I had a
sweater on, why are you wearing a carpet?

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And I, I, of course, had no
knowledge about anything.

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But that's not fair

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Rupert Isaacson: because
she wears sweaters.

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She knows what a sweater

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Kim Barthel: is.

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But it was the nature of the
quality of the fuzz, right?

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And she said, I, that, that,
and then she went on to describe

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how that hurt to look at it.

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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

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Kim Barthel: And just the

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Rupert Isaacson: texture of the

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Kim Barthel: texture

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Rupert Isaacson: of that sweater

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Kim Barthel: sweater.

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Yeah, like

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Rupert Isaacson: note to self
in September when I'm going to

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be hanging out with no sweater.

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Kim Barthel: Right.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

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Kim Barthel: And then she said
something to me like, stop moving

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your lips I'm trying to listen to you.

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And I was like, I don't
know if I can do that.

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Because she was working hard on processing
my speech and my face at the same time.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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And those,

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Kim Barthel: those are the things
that had deep profound impact

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for endlessly for the future.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I can see that.

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I could see that, you know, one of
the things we never do is demand

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any kind of eye contact, right?

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We could, we say, you know,
if they look at you, great.

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If they don't be interesting, they
might, but if they're not looking at you,

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they're probably taking in what you're
saying in the same way that if someone's

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listening to this podcast while driving
a car, they don't need to look at us for

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sure, taking what you're saying, right?

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Do you think if you had at that point
turned your face away and said, okay,

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fine, temple, you know, look at the
wall or turn away from me, just listen.

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Like on the radio, you know,
might that have worked?

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Kim Barthel: I mean,
that's in fact what I did.

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And so I think this idea, you
know, we talked today about the

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neurodiverse affirming movement.

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I think I've been living that for
my whole career of not trying to

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get people to be what I want them to
be, but to how I can be with them.

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And that's what I think she
taught me in that conversation.

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Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

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I would love to get together over
a bottle of wine with you two.

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I will probably be the only one
drinking the wine, but it'll certainly

00:14:28.895 --> 00:14:30.965
help my, lubricate my understanding.

00:14:32.715 --> 00:14:35.205
Kim Barthel: But you asked me
also, how did I get to movement?

00:14:35.275 --> 00:14:35.765
Yes.

00:14:35.985 --> 00:14:36.375
Wine.

00:14:36.375 --> 00:14:37.545
So, so Dr.

00:14:37.565 --> 00:14:42.945
Ayers looked at me one day, who I,
who to me was like, I couldn't think

00:14:42.945 --> 00:14:44.675
of anyone that was more important.

00:14:44.675 --> 00:14:44.725
Brilliant.

00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:45.900
As a mentor,

00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:46.460
Rupert Isaacson: she

00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:48.750
Kim Barthel: said, Kim, you've
got to go learn about the body.

00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:54.300
And I was like, okay, I'm
like 21 years old and I don't

00:14:54.310 --> 00:14:55.580
know anything from anything.

00:14:56.310 --> 00:14:57.970
And I said, okay, I'll go do that.

00:14:57.970 --> 00:14:58.940
What does that mean?

00:15:00.150 --> 00:15:02.540
And she said, well, I think
that neurodevelopmental

00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:04.070
treatment, go and study with Mrs.

00:15:04.070 --> 00:15:09.030
Bobath in London, the UK,
you got to go do that.

00:15:09.030 --> 00:15:10.630
And I was like, okay.

00:15:12.150 --> 00:15:17.910
So I tripped off to take what we call
an eight week certification course.

00:15:18.410 --> 00:15:18.980
With Mrs.

00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:20.520
Bobath, and

00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:22.480
Rupert Isaacson: That's
such a great name, Bobath.

00:15:22.970 --> 00:15:23.740
Kim Barthel: It is, isn't it?

00:15:24.610 --> 00:15:30.540
And that was the beginning of that, that
part of the collective thought process.

00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:37.670
And I think that, you know, one of
the reasons that she asked me, Dr.

00:15:37.670 --> 00:15:38.860
Ayers, reflectively, Dr.

00:15:38.890 --> 00:15:42.370
Ayers passed away, so I never
had a chance to ask her why.

00:15:43.670 --> 00:15:45.030
Why me and why that?

00:15:45.910 --> 00:15:50.720
But it, with reflection, I think it
was about how sensation impacts and

00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:57.680
connects to the body in movement, which
was not part yet of the fully developed,

00:15:57.690 --> 00:16:01.018
fully baked theory of SI at that time.

00:16:01.018 --> 00:16:02.240
Rupert Isaacson: SI being?

00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:03.420
Sensory Intervention.

00:16:03.420 --> 00:16:04.030
Sensory Intervention.

00:16:04.030 --> 00:16:04.250
Okay.

00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:04.970
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

00:16:05.020 --> 00:16:07.900
Rupert Isaacson: And were you
yourself someone who who moved a lot?

00:16:08.285 --> 00:16:09.845
Are you still now someone who moves a lot?

00:16:10.595 --> 00:16:11.975
Kim Barthel: That's such a good question.

00:16:12.075 --> 00:16:13.365
Honestly, no.

00:16:13.555 --> 00:16:14.055
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:16:14.235 --> 00:16:14.545
Interesting.

00:16:14.565 --> 00:16:14.875
And I

00:16:14.915 --> 00:16:17.985
Kim Barthel: think, I think that
also, I mean, I was a dancer.

00:16:18.645 --> 00:16:19.255
Rupert Isaacson: Well, then yes.

00:16:20.095 --> 00:16:23.145
Kim Barthel: And I never felt good enough.

00:16:25.515 --> 00:16:27.315
Rupert Isaacson: You're like a
classical dancer, like ballet.

00:16:27.595 --> 00:16:28.495
Kim Barthel: Classical dancer, yeah.

00:16:28.515 --> 00:16:29.405
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, that's the problem.

00:16:29.405 --> 00:16:30.115
Perfectionism.

00:16:30.115 --> 00:16:31.485
It's just like dressage.

00:16:31.485 --> 00:16:31.835
Yeah.

00:16:31.835 --> 00:16:34.335
It's it's ayanga yoga.

00:16:34.365 --> 00:16:37.915
You know, I mean, when we go for
perfectionism, we just kill the joy.

00:16:37.985 --> 00:16:38.195
Yeah.

00:16:38.435 --> 00:16:38.455
Yeah.

00:16:38.695 --> 00:16:38.975
Kim Barthel: Yep.

00:16:39.045 --> 00:16:39.535
There was.

00:16:39.855 --> 00:16:48.025
And so my love of movement was,
yeah, dampened by the experience

00:16:48.085 --> 00:16:50.915
of not ever feeling good enough.

00:16:51.955 --> 00:16:55.695
And I was shocked when Mrs.

00:16:55.695 --> 00:17:02.325
Bobath said, I think you need to teach
this because never did I think that

00:17:02.325 --> 00:17:04.185
I would be skilled enough to do that.

00:17:05.535 --> 00:17:07.005
So, You'd

00:17:07.005 --> 00:17:07.825
Rupert Isaacson: given up on dance.

00:17:09.030 --> 00:17:10.950
Early, like in childhood or in your teen?

00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:12.260
Kim Barthel: Seventeen, seventeen.

00:17:12.630 --> 00:17:15.820
I don't think of that as so
early, I did it, took, you know,

00:17:15.820 --> 00:17:17.520
classical dance for seventeen

00:17:17.610 --> 00:17:18.140
Rupert Isaacson: years.

00:17:18.280 --> 00:17:21.060
And was it, was it a great love,
classical dance, or actually was it just

00:17:21.060 --> 00:17:24.150
something that you were made to do and
you actually liked to move in every way?

00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:27.870
Kim Barthel: No one's ever
asked me these questions before.

00:17:28.110 --> 00:17:28.840
Good for you.

00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:33.470
It's a combination, it was
intermittent, you know, there was

00:17:33.530 --> 00:17:37.620
times of great love and then times of.

00:17:38.145 --> 00:17:45.995
I can't stop this because I'm, I'm, I'm
in, I'm in the flow of it feeling like

00:17:46.045 --> 00:17:47.895
there's some need to complete something.

00:17:49.015 --> 00:17:51.805
Rupert Isaacson: I am in blood
steeped so far that to turn back

00:17:51.845 --> 00:17:53.815
was tedious as to go that's Macbeth.

00:17:55.125 --> 00:17:58.035
He said when he feels he can't stop
because the momentum is taking him.

00:17:58.045 --> 00:17:59.715
No, I, I know exactly what that feels.

00:18:00.085 --> 00:18:04.095
And, and one was often made to feel
that way, of course, by family.

00:18:04.445 --> 00:18:04.755
Yes.

00:18:04.985 --> 00:18:06.145
Mentors, you know.

00:18:09.135 --> 00:18:10.075
Did it break your heart?

00:18:13.265 --> 00:18:14.535
Kim Barthel: Did it break my heart?

00:18:14.595 --> 00:18:16.085
I think I'm still working on it.

00:18:16.275 --> 00:18:16.615
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:18:17.605 --> 00:18:22.275
Kim Barthel: And I think that the
lingering feeling of not good enough

00:18:22.315 --> 00:18:24.725
has been both a gift and a curse.

00:18:26.475 --> 00:18:26.825
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:18:27.215 --> 00:18:30.665
And because of course the cold
hard fact is that even the ballet

00:18:30.665 --> 00:18:34.175
dancers that make it, make it,
make it, never feel good enough.

00:18:34.595 --> 00:18:34.775
Yes.

00:18:34.775 --> 00:18:34.805
And

00:18:38.535 --> 00:18:42.275
the axe to the chest that
you've just described.

00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:46.770
of course, allowed you to view
the world compassionately.

00:18:46.820 --> 00:18:47.670
But it's a rough go.

00:18:49.050 --> 00:18:52.770
It would be nice if kids didn't
have to go through that in order to.

00:18:52.830 --> 00:18:53.510
Kim Barthel: Exactly.

00:18:54.340 --> 00:18:58.365
And I think, you know, the gift
of knowing Movement from the

00:18:58.375 --> 00:19:04.715
inside, and then also witnessing
or experiencing people who struggle

00:19:06.545 --> 00:19:06.685
Rupert Isaacson: to

00:19:06.685 --> 00:19:06.815
Kim Barthel: move,

00:19:08.055 --> 00:19:12.175
It just gave me a sense of

00:19:14.245 --> 00:19:15.765
embodied understanding,

00:19:17.865 --> 00:19:20.275
meaning I can feel movement.

00:19:20.925 --> 00:19:22.305
As I watch movement.

00:19:24.955 --> 00:19:25.885
Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting.

00:19:26.455 --> 00:19:31.025
Kim Barthel: And without that experience,
I don't think I would have that in me.

00:19:32.775 --> 00:19:33.945
Rupert Isaacson: It's a
really interesting thing.

00:19:34.085 --> 00:19:36.875
If movement's ever been taken away,
and I know a lot of people listening

00:19:36.875 --> 00:19:39.485
to this would've been in situations,
so movement has been taken away

00:19:39.875 --> 00:19:41.315
either permanently or temporarily.

00:19:41.315 --> 00:19:45.245
But for example, I smashed up both
legs once and you know, I was parked

00:19:45.245 --> 00:19:50.435
on the couch for a long time, and
the appreciation of being able to

00:19:50.435 --> 00:19:51.785
like get up and go to have a pee.

00:19:52.775 --> 00:19:56.325
And what a privilege that is, and
what a, what a pee village, in

00:19:56.325 --> 00:20:02.885
fact, that is, and you know, it's
stuff that I've taken for granted.

00:20:02.895 --> 00:20:05.485
Gratitude versus entitlement

00:20:07.825 --> 00:20:09.205
really starts with movement.

00:20:09.265 --> 00:20:12.285
I mean, if you think about a slime mold.

00:20:13.505 --> 00:20:19.390
Put that slime mold into a Into
a labyrinth, and they see it go,

00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:23.530
or they put the slime mold into a
controlled thing where they put some

00:20:23.530 --> 00:20:25.550
toxin and it goes away from the toxin.

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.460
If the slime mold couldn't find
its way through the labyrinth, if

00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:33.680
the slime mold couldn't move away
from the toxin, imagine, even at

00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:35.440
that level, cellular suffering.

00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:36.400
Kim Barthel: Totally.

00:20:36.875 --> 00:20:38.745
Rupert Isaacson: And I think that's
something we can all relate to.

00:20:39.095 --> 00:20:42.295
So listen, you said that I actually
thought that you were not a horse person.

00:20:42.295 --> 00:20:47.365
I was thinking, okay, I'm just going to be
putting this one up there for the horse.

00:20:47.830 --> 00:20:51.830
crazies amongst us, which include me
to remind us that we should, you know,

00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:53.440
learn our neuroscience and all of this.

00:20:53.670 --> 00:20:56.480
But it turns out you actually do have
a background with equine therapy.

00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:59.570
Can you just go into that a little
bit before we go on to the work

00:20:59.570 --> 00:21:02.700
that you actually do now and what
we can learn from you just so

00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:04.000
we can understand your context?

00:21:04.490 --> 00:21:04.910
Kim Barthel: Sure.

00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:10.120
My connection to the horse world didn't
come because of a love of horses.

00:21:11.370 --> 00:21:16.510
It actually came from a love of
movement and seeing the horse.

00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:24.540
as an offering for enhancement of
movement experience for kids that,

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:32.570
especially children, who had quite
limited mobility, cerebral palsy, and

00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:40.180
the whole opportunity for weight shift,
movement through space experiencing

00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:50.070
connection with a being that allowed
them to feel, felt, this was my draw.

00:21:50.570 --> 00:21:54.480
Rupert Isaacson: And to be moved,
to be moved by something, giving

00:21:54.490 --> 00:21:56.240
you, lending you its power, right?

00:21:56.570 --> 00:21:57.050
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:21:57.980 --> 00:22:03.210
And, and, and very quickly it
was obvious to me that this

00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:05.330
was a relational experience.

00:22:06.820 --> 00:22:10.810
Rupert Isaacson: When did you get involved
in therapy, therapeutic writing and how?

00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:13.610
Kim Barthel: So I lived in
a place called Winnipeg.

00:22:15.205 --> 00:22:24.265
Canada, and we had a startup
therapeutic riding process that

00:22:24.365 --> 00:22:30.705
was one woman who wanted to use
her horses for the purpose of.

00:22:31.445 --> 00:22:33.745
Supporting kids with disability,

00:22:33.935 --> 00:22:34.705
Rupert Isaacson: and this is when

00:22:35.195 --> 00:22:37.765
Kim Barthel: it would have
been in the early 90s.

00:22:39.805 --> 00:22:41.165
Rupert Isaacson: And up until
then, there was nothing that

00:22:41.345 --> 00:22:43.515
Kim Barthel: there was nothing,
especially where I was living.

00:22:43.645 --> 00:22:50.065
I mean, I'm, I know that it existed before
that, but not in the area where I was.

00:22:51.735 --> 00:22:55.895
And given my appreciation and
understanding of movement and sensation

00:22:55.915 --> 00:23:01.975
in this way, this organization sought me
out and said, can you come and help us

00:23:02.675 --> 00:23:05.045
understand what we might do on the horse?

00:23:05.245 --> 00:23:05.395
I

00:23:05.395 --> 00:23:05.785
Rupert Isaacson: see.

00:23:07.385 --> 00:23:09.605
So they, they contacted
you as a consultant?

00:23:10.375 --> 00:23:10.835
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:23:11.115 --> 00:23:11.295
And what

00:23:11.305 --> 00:23:11.935
Rupert Isaacson: did you show them?

00:23:11.935 --> 00:23:12.895
What did you suggest?

00:23:13.605 --> 00:23:15.505
Kim Barthel: Well, I'll never
forget the first time I went.

00:23:15.770 --> 00:23:20.650
And we did back riding, meaning
I was actually sitting on

00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:21.810
the horse with the child.

00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:22.560
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:23:23.060 --> 00:23:24.080
Even though you're a rider?

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.160
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:23:26.080 --> 00:23:28.810
Rupert Isaacson: So they'd
obviously produce a nice safe

00:23:28.810 --> 00:23:29.930
horse underneath you, right?

00:23:30.310 --> 00:23:31.160
Kim Barthel: Definitely.

00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:32.600
Definitely.

00:23:33.530 --> 00:23:37.780
And this experience for me was necessary

00:23:38.800 --> 00:23:39.550
Rupert Isaacson: because

00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:43.930
Kim Barthel: not only was I feeling
the movement of the child in front

00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:48.790
of me, but I was simultaneously
experiencing the movement of the horse.

00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:49.250
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

00:23:50.250 --> 00:23:54.190
Kim Barthel: And so there was this, I
think, I know you know exactly what I'm

00:23:54.190 --> 00:24:01.300
talking about, you know, sitting there
with your child and feeling them while

00:24:01.300 --> 00:24:03.640
feeling the movement through yourself.

00:24:04.950 --> 00:24:10.400
And this was what helped me figure
out, so to speak, that word is too

00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:15.360
literal, how we might use saddles.

00:24:16.280 --> 00:24:17.280
in different ways.

00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:21.840
What could be done on a horse in
a back riding situation, which I

00:24:22.090 --> 00:24:23.870
don't think is as common today.

00:24:24.270 --> 00:24:26.760
Rupert Isaacson: No, I'd say
the horse boy, us, we're one

00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:27.740
of the only people that do it.

00:24:28.410 --> 00:24:28.630
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

00:24:29.310 --> 00:24:30.910
I don't know if it's good for the horse.

00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:31.440
I don't know.

00:24:31.730 --> 00:24:33.420
Rupert Isaacson: It is if you
make the back very strong.

00:24:33.980 --> 00:24:41.920
Because the entire culture of Asia,
Northern Asia, and most of the Americas

00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.450
would be all killing their horses
if it wasn't, because that's how

00:24:45.450 --> 00:24:48.400
all their kids grow up, because they
actually use horses for transport.

00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:53.030
So it's a interesting, rather
racist viewpoint that a lot of

00:24:53.050 --> 00:24:56.100
Western horse people have, is that
this must be bad for the horse.

00:24:56.340 --> 00:24:59.670
But where they're, where they're, It
writes off all those cultures immediately.

00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:03.820
However, where they're being trying
to be good is where it's coming from

00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:06.970
a good places they they're concerned
for the health of the horses back and

00:25:06.970 --> 00:25:10.480
it is true that if you're going to
ride with someone in front of you.

00:25:11.330 --> 00:25:13.030
You want to make sure that you put.

00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:15.780
inordinate amounts of
muscle on the horse's back.

00:25:15.830 --> 00:25:16.740
So that's what we do.

00:25:17.410 --> 00:25:18.080
Kim Barthel: Very good.

00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:26.930
And so, you know, we also looked at
changes in direction, reach into space,

00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:35.040
games, as you talked about earlier, what,
what kind of stop, start, reach and throw.

00:25:35.780 --> 00:25:43.205
These were very early activities that
we thought of to engage kids in moving

00:25:43.205 --> 00:25:50.065
their bodies in ways that they couldn't do
sitting in a wheelchair or on the floor.

00:25:51.765 --> 00:25:54.880
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us those of
us who Don't know in neuroscience.

00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:57.790
What do those activities do for the brain?

00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.590
Kim Barthel: Okay, deep
breath, where do we start?

00:26:04.890 --> 00:26:07.900
What's so interesting about
that question is what I know

00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:09.470
today versus what I knew then.

00:26:11.810 --> 00:26:19.040
Because our understanding of neuroscience
today is so vastly different compared

00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:25.610
to the day of the 90s where we, you
know, we're beginning to understand

00:26:25.610 --> 00:26:27.450
the concepts of neuroplasticity.

00:26:28.670 --> 00:26:29.670
Rupert Isaacson: It was a new word then.

00:26:30.050 --> 00:26:34.530
Kim Barthel: It was a big new word and,
and really the foundation of change,

00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.610
the potential for the
brain to heal itself.

00:26:41.130 --> 00:26:44.390
Because prior to that time, it was
believed that was not possible.

00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:45.080
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:51.560
I mean, it's not that long ago that even
in mainstream neuroscience, the doctrine

00:26:51.560 --> 00:26:54.010
was the brain is hardwired at five.

00:26:54.050 --> 00:26:58.390
We now know that's so not true,
but it was orthodox for a while.

00:26:58.450 --> 00:26:58.630
Yeah.

00:26:58.930 --> 00:26:59.370
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:27:00.280 --> 00:27:07.540
And so the You know, the idea of
neurodevelopmental treatment was even

00:27:07.540 --> 00:27:12.380
founded on this premise that there
is learning happening all the time.

00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:17.410
And I don't just mean learning
as in practical skills, but

00:27:17.420 --> 00:27:19.070
learning at a cellular level.

00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:24.080
And you know, it's funny you
use the word, it's slime mold.

00:27:24.090 --> 00:27:28.070
I often give the description of, I
was working in the neuroscience lab,

00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:31.090
looking at a paramecium in a Petri dish.

00:27:32.335 --> 00:27:34.695
Rupert Isaacson: What's a paramecium,
for those of us that don't know?

00:27:34.745 --> 00:27:34.775
It's

00:27:34.775 --> 00:27:40.975
Kim Barthel: a single cell, and it has
a brain in its membrane, and it knows

00:27:41.135 --> 00:27:45.765
where to swim and where not to swim,
dependent on what's in the environment.

00:27:46.995 --> 00:27:51.795
And when you drop in a toxin into
the petri dish, that, that cell will

00:27:51.795 --> 00:27:53.465
not move in that direction again.

00:27:54.845 --> 00:28:02.555
And this is the premise of rehab, is,
or, or, never mind rehab, that sounds

00:28:03.305 --> 00:28:08.165
like, Because for many kids, it's not
rehabilitation, it's habilitation.

00:28:08.875 --> 00:28:12.255
You know, their bodies
never had those experiences.

00:28:13.375 --> 00:28:18.025
So we understand that the brain
is an inter today, today, we

00:28:18.025 --> 00:28:23.915
understand that the brain is multi
faceted, interconnected circuits.

00:28:25.315 --> 00:28:26.585
That's non hierarchical.

00:28:27.745 --> 00:28:29.625
That things are moving in loops.

00:28:30.655 --> 00:28:36.675
And impact in one area of
the brain will have interface

00:28:36.695 --> 00:28:38.365
in other areas of the brain.

00:28:40.065 --> 00:28:46.045
And so when you are, for example
moving through space side to side,

00:28:46.045 --> 00:28:50.055
forward and backward, we call
this weight shift on the horse.

00:28:51.615 --> 00:28:57.645
This impacts the brainstem, the
cerebellum, the basal ganglia.

00:28:57.665 --> 00:29:01.075
These are blah, blah, blah
words in a neuroscience way.

00:29:01.475 --> 00:29:03.555
It impacts the frontal cortex.

00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:09.410
It, it has an impact on structures
of knowing where my body is

00:29:09.410 --> 00:29:11.060
and who I am and who I'm not.

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:12.240
Rupert Isaacson: Procreception.

00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:13.030
Kim Barthel: Yep.

00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:14.720
In, in pteroception.

00:29:15.910 --> 00:29:17.290
This is me, this is not me.

00:29:18.230 --> 00:29:27.020
That all of these experiences that
the horse offers integrates the brain.

00:29:27.635 --> 00:29:35.245
In, in a way that allows circuits
to wire together, that they

00:29:35.265 --> 00:29:39.775
may not have an opportunity to
do in a different environment.

00:29:40.915 --> 00:29:43.335
Rupert Isaacson: And again, for
those people for whom neuroscience is

00:29:43.335 --> 00:29:45.725
something new, why is that a good thing?

00:29:48.775 --> 00:29:50.275
Kim Barthel: Oh, why is it a good thing?

00:29:51.565 --> 00:29:57.655
First of all, one of the greatest
challenges that is so poorly understood

00:29:58.835 --> 00:30:08.335
is that my sense of self, me or me
in relationship to other, means that

00:30:09.060 --> 00:30:16.010
The sensory experiences that I'm
taking in have to be felt by me as me.

00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:18.180
Gosh, that's abstract, isn't it?

00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:21.010
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but it makes sense.

00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:26.240
Kim Barthel: You know, I have to
know I'm moving, that there's an I.

00:30:28.070 --> 00:30:30.980
And I think that so many
people with differently wired

00:30:30.990 --> 00:30:33.120
brains struggle with this.

00:30:34.050 --> 00:30:34.280
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:38.220
Kim Barthel: Struggle with knowing
what's me and what's not me.

00:30:38.610 --> 00:30:39.270
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:40.490
Yeah.

00:30:40.550 --> 00:30:40.810
Yeah.

00:30:40.810 --> 00:30:44.600
Where are the boundaries
between myself and the world?

00:30:45.060 --> 00:30:47.240
You know, it's interesting
Rowan Scubb he's actually

00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:48.980
downstairs while I'm giving this.

00:30:49.410 --> 00:30:50.320
He's eating his dinner.

00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:51.610
He's just been helping.

00:30:52.205 --> 00:30:58.525
Today building the fence pasture and the
23 year old hulking six foot one dude who

00:30:58.525 --> 00:31:03.445
drives independently, who has his own car,
who just sold in the process of selling

00:31:03.445 --> 00:31:07.575
his house so that he can have money in
investment that he can then live on.

00:31:08.805 --> 00:31:12.615
This is a very, but he, as you
know, he didn't start that.

00:31:12.955 --> 00:31:21.575
And he, he himself says the early years
were a blur of feeling a confusion.

00:31:23.575 --> 00:31:26.145
of not knowing where he began and ended.

00:31:26.795 --> 00:31:31.565
And that while that might feel good in
a certain moment in a sort of certain

00:31:31.565 --> 00:31:35.915
altered state of consciousness, if
you go through life that way, it's

00:31:35.935 --> 00:31:40.105
really confusing and disorienting
and alarming and upsetting.

00:31:40.695 --> 00:31:44.925
And there is a certain point With
all this movement and with all

00:31:44.925 --> 00:31:48.095
this integration with nature and
all this sensory integration,

00:31:48.095 --> 00:31:51.285
effectively, things began to clarify.

00:31:51.785 --> 00:31:54.655
He, and he talks about this with parents
a lot, who are trying to understand

00:31:54.655 --> 00:31:55.555
what their kids are going through.

00:31:55.815 --> 00:31:58.615
It's very interesting that
you were observing this you

00:31:58.615 --> 00:32:00.155
know, back in the early 90s.

00:32:00.575 --> 00:32:05.245
Kim Barthel: Well, this is why, this is
why your work was so appealing to me.

00:32:06.655 --> 00:32:11.925
That when I first watched and read
about Horseboy, I thought, of course!

00:32:13.310 --> 00:32:19.800
This and, and the idea of also the
spiritual aspect of looking at person

00:32:20.090 --> 00:32:25.120
from a holistic perspective had a
deep resonance of this is what's

00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:30.090
happening to the brain is you're
putting together pieces that didn't

00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:38.570
necessarily connect well in isolated
ways that through opportunity,

00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:40.890
you've allowed those freeways.

00:32:41.605 --> 00:32:48.975
that have an inherent design to
connect, but just couldn't get there,

00:32:49.605 --> 00:32:51.235
now have the experience to do it.

00:32:51.985 --> 00:32:52.135
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:32:52.175 --> 00:32:56.085
I think that's a really good point that
they have an inherent design, not which

00:32:56.085 --> 00:32:57.605
of course is therefore desire, right?

00:32:58.075 --> 00:33:02.505
So why, yeah, why would it
feel distressing to feel

00:33:02.505 --> 00:33:03.455
those blurred boundaries?

00:33:03.465 --> 00:33:09.215
Because as you say, we're designed to
feel not hard boundaries, but nonetheless,

00:33:09.215 --> 00:33:12.125
do we have an epidermis, you know, it
stands between us and the world we have,

00:33:13.375 --> 00:33:18.230
you We have this sense of self, and this
is our compass, this is our navigation,

00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:24.510
and so it's very interesting that you
said design, because yes, to experience

00:33:25.350 --> 00:33:33.230
one's self not operating to one's innate
design, how could that not feel alarming?

00:33:34.030 --> 00:33:34.680
Kim Barthel: Definitely.

00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:40.150
And you know, when we think about
we are really designed for survival,

00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:44.410
not for comfort, darn it.

00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:44.540
Yeah.

00:33:46.100 --> 00:33:48.390
And so we are inherently That's why God

00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:50.050
Rupert Isaacson: invested,
invented Scotch whisky.

00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:50.350
Yeah.

00:33:52.850 --> 00:33:56.490
Kim Barthel: Yes, and many other
forms of adaptive behavior to

00:33:56.490 --> 00:34:01.230
help us cope with this, with this
experience called human life.

00:34:02.510 --> 00:34:05.620
But I think that we are
tracking for danger constantly.

00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:07.040
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.

00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:14.580
Kim Barthel: And we regulate our
sense of distress in the body.

00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:21.970
I have to feel me in order to regulate me.

00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:28.900
And that sounds, I know that when I
say that, that sounds fluffy, but it's

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:34.935
like, I have to, Understand what I'm
experiencing at a very primitive level

00:34:34.935 --> 00:34:38.405
anyway, in order to feel safe in it.

00:34:38.645 --> 00:34:40.925
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, if I'm walking,
it's interesting, while I'm, while I'm

00:34:41.075 --> 00:34:49.095
having this talk, the, the screen saver
thing is a photograph of that we took last

00:34:49.095 --> 00:34:52.995
year in Etosha Game Reserve in Namibia.

00:34:53.305 --> 00:34:58.215
With my family, as you know, I spent time
with the Bushmen and we were on our way

00:34:58.225 --> 00:35:05.315
to meet them, the son, and the picture
that I'm looking at is of two young lions

00:35:05.335 --> 00:35:10.015
playing and there's a herd of zebra behind
them, and they're all grazing peacefully,

00:35:10.015 --> 00:35:15.015
but there's two zebra who are watching
the lion, and then behind them, there's

00:35:15.015 --> 00:35:17.895
a herd of springbok who are not bothering
to watch the lions because they know

00:35:17.895 --> 00:35:23.265
the zebra are watching the lions, and
The zebra know very well that as long as

00:35:23.265 --> 00:35:27.545
the lions are in that behavior, they're
okay, but it needs to be monitored.

00:35:28.175 --> 00:35:36.270
And they also know that If those three
quarter grown lion cubs that they're

00:35:36.270 --> 00:35:41.270
playing, well, lion, big cats live
with their parents for up to two years.

00:35:41.540 --> 00:35:45.460
So it means that the females must
be, the fully grown females, the

00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:47.110
lionesses, must be somewhere around.

00:35:48.020 --> 00:35:55.270
And either they're going to sneak around
the back or they're hanging out close to

00:35:55.270 --> 00:35:58.630
their three quarter grown cubs because
they don't want the hyenas to come and go.

00:35:58.990 --> 00:36:02.490
So either way, the situation needs to
be monitored, but they're not monitoring

00:36:02.490 --> 00:36:05.080
it in a way that is huge alarm.

00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.310
They're just keeping an eye while
the rest of the great herd grazes.

00:36:11.910 --> 00:36:16.510
If they didn't have a sense of
self, I'm a zebra and that's a lion.

00:36:17.160 --> 00:36:18.900
And it's over there at that distance.

00:36:19.490 --> 00:36:23.070
And this behavior means this
in relation to, am I safe?

00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:23.790
Am I not safe?

00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:25.970
One could imagine that.

00:36:27.725 --> 00:36:31.415
It would certainly add to the already
probably quite great stresses of hanging

00:36:31.415 --> 00:36:32.655
out close to lions if you're a zebra.

00:36:33.275 --> 00:36:36.975
Kim Barthel: You, you, you've described
this such a, in such an elegant way.

00:36:37.615 --> 00:36:43.355
And you're reminding me of my neurobiology
professor, Robert Sapolsky, who

00:36:43.355 --> 00:36:45.755
wrote, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers.

00:36:46.725 --> 00:36:47.435
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

00:36:48.555 --> 00:36:54.645
Kim Barthel: And he is a biologist,
neurobiologist, and studied exactly what

00:36:54.645 --> 00:37:00.675
you're talking about and how our autonomic
nervous system, I call it the automatic

00:37:00.675 --> 00:37:03.995
nervous system, is, it has a knowing.

00:37:05.335 --> 00:37:08.075
And the knowing doesn't
necessarily require language.

00:37:08.075 --> 00:37:13.895
It's a knowing that is very
sensory based intuitive based.

00:37:14.485 --> 00:37:20.185
That comes from this monitoring that
you're talking about and allows me

00:37:20.235 --> 00:37:25.265
to shift into fight flight freeze.

00:37:26.050 --> 00:37:34.490
or a sense of centeredness that
allows me to continue to monitor

00:37:34.490 --> 00:37:36.860
but not experience terror or fear.

00:37:38.140 --> 00:37:43.870
And if I didn't have an integrated sense
of body, I wouldn't be able to do this.

00:37:44.750 --> 00:37:45.590
Rupert Isaacson: You
know, this is really good.

00:37:45.590 --> 00:37:48.790
This is, you know, a lot of, I think
for a lot of people, a word like

00:37:49.155 --> 00:37:50.885
A phrase like sensory integration.

00:37:51.525 --> 00:37:53.695
It's one of those things you hear,
and the first time you hear it,

00:37:53.695 --> 00:37:54.565
you're like, oh, what's that then?

00:37:54.895 --> 00:37:57.235
And then you go, oh, well, I suppose
I sort of know what that is because,

00:37:57.665 --> 00:38:00.615
so it's like people, when they hear
autism, they're like, oh, what's that?

00:38:00.615 --> 00:38:03.790
And then, oh, I suppose I should, but
no one actually says, well, It's these

00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:08.080
three letters, A U T, that should
have an O on the end, auto, meaning

00:38:08.080 --> 00:38:11.020
the self, the Greek word for the
self, you know, locked in the self.

00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.920
So, and then you go, Oh, right.

00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:15.520
Okay, now I understand
why they call it autism.

00:38:16.170 --> 00:38:18.350
Sensory integration, it's really
interesting the way you explain

00:38:18.350 --> 00:38:22.040
it there, because I remember in
my early days of all this, people

00:38:22.040 --> 00:38:23.180
saying, Oh, sensory integration.

00:38:23.240 --> 00:38:23.910
I'd be like, Oh, shit.

00:38:23.990 --> 00:38:25.070
You know, I'm supposed
to know what that means.

00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:26.770
I've got no idea at all what that means.

00:38:27.230 --> 00:38:34.955
But unfortunately, I think a lot of times
these Phrases are thought up by academics.

00:38:36.645 --> 00:38:39.525
So for example, like you say, autonomic,
you'd rather call it automatic.

00:38:40.085 --> 00:38:42.975
I agree with you there, because when
you hear autonomic, you just think,

00:38:43.785 --> 00:38:48.325
unfamiliar word, don't hear that,
getting onto the subway every day,

00:38:48.485 --> 00:38:49.825
don't hear that when I'm buying.

00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:56.530
You know, my newspaper or whatever, it
seems to exist only in this context, and

00:38:56.530 --> 00:39:01.650
it makes me feel kind of a bit stupid if
I don't automatically know what it is.

00:39:03.060 --> 00:39:08.950
Sensory integration, I think a lot of
these terms, the language, the jargon

00:39:08.950 --> 00:39:10.490
gets in the way of the understanding.

00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:11.410
Couldn't

00:39:11.410 --> 00:39:13.180
Kim Barthel: agree with,
couldn't agree with more.

00:39:14.180 --> 00:39:23.010
And it's to make it into understandable
concepts that is useful to families

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:28.820
and to people who themselves are
looking to be their best self.

00:39:29.120 --> 00:39:32.330
Rupert Isaacson: So sensory
integration then is if I know who

00:39:32.330 --> 00:39:35.560
I am and where I am and what I am,
then I know how to keep myself safe.

00:39:35.700 --> 00:39:37.250
Basically,

00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:37.890
Kim Barthel: you did it.

00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:42.530
I don't know if anyone else has said
it that simply great bottom line.

00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:46.080
You know, there's another thought
I'm having as you're talking

00:39:46.270 --> 00:39:48.560
that autism is not one thing,

00:39:49.210 --> 00:39:49.550
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:39:50.430 --> 00:39:53.870
Kim Barthel: That every person, you
know, most of the children that I've

00:39:53.870 --> 00:39:56.470
treated with autism are now in their 30s.

00:39:57.850 --> 00:39:59.820
They all have a different story.

00:40:01.080 --> 00:40:02.940
How they experience.

00:40:05.155 --> 00:40:11.405
And it, you know, it's often very
simply described academically as being

00:40:11.415 --> 00:40:18.425
overly sensitive or having difficulty
in processing a piece of information.

00:40:18.655 --> 00:40:20.445
This is not my experience.

00:40:20.475 --> 00:40:25.825
My experience is that there is a
difficulty in putting pieces together.

00:40:27.845 --> 00:40:35.095
That often the way one sense, works
together with another sense, isn't

00:40:35.215 --> 00:40:44.305
easy to make the puzzle whole,
and so people really oversimplify

00:40:45.345 --> 00:40:50.755
their attempt to understand what
it is, I think, the persons who's

00:40:50.755 --> 00:40:53.165
differently wired is really living in.

00:40:54.055 --> 00:40:54.915
Rupert Isaacson: It's
an interesting thing.

00:40:54.915 --> 00:40:58.485
I think anyone who's ever taken a
psychotropic, a strong psychotropic

00:40:58.485 --> 00:41:01.555
and psychedelic drug has had
that feeling of disintegration.

00:41:01.985 --> 00:41:02.565
Kim Barthel: Correct.

00:41:02.950 --> 00:41:07.270
Rupert Isaacson: And I think if one
hasn't had that feeling of, oh shit,

00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:11.260
you know, I'm sort of disappearing,
I'm fragmenting, I've, my cells are

00:41:11.260 --> 00:41:18.510
breaking up, I'm, I've lost, not just
lost control, but I am no longer me.

00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:19.380
Kim Barthel: Right.

00:41:19.470 --> 00:41:20.060
Rupert Isaacson: Disembodied.

00:41:20.060 --> 00:41:22.300
Although there is a me that's
experiencing this, you know, which is

00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:23.890
what anchors one in those experiences.

00:41:25.990 --> 00:41:27.820
Imagine going through that all the time.

00:41:30.700 --> 00:41:36.550
Kim Barthel: And, and, and trying
to organize relationships and, and

00:41:36.830 --> 00:41:41.290
also mask so that people, so that
you give people what they want.

00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:44.310
My heart breaks when I think about it.

00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:47.900
Rupert Isaacson: I'll tell you a funny
story, but it's, it's a public story now.

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.400
It's not me but something that
describes that perfectly is, have you

00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.610
seen the Carlos Santana documentary?

00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:55.470
Kim Barthel: No.

00:41:56.050 --> 00:41:56.310
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:41:56.310 --> 00:41:57.180
It's brilliant.

00:41:57.240 --> 00:41:57.680
Okay.

00:41:57.720 --> 00:41:58.010
It's brilliant.

00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.620
the plane and when he played at Woodstock.

00:42:02.350 --> 00:42:06.360
He was they're going through this and
he was really young and he, he'd be

00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:11.130
the house band at the Fillmore in San
Francisco only because he tried to

00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:15.930
break in to see the bands because he was
this Hispanic boy from Tijuana, right?

00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:19.120
And that raised by
Mariachi, good musician.

00:42:19.330 --> 00:42:20.970
And when they said, Hey, you're
breaking in this of, yeah, but

00:42:20.970 --> 00:42:22.100
I just really want to see that.

00:42:22.100 --> 00:42:23.340
And they said, okay, can you play guitar?

00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:24.590
And they sort of challenged
him and he did that.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:25.500
You're awesome.

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:28.120
And it kind of, he became
house band sort of age 20.

00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:29.440
And then he finds himself.

00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:31.080
at Woodstock.

00:42:31.430 --> 00:42:38.510
And apparently he says all those crazy
facial contortions I'm doing at Woodstock.

00:42:38.990 --> 00:42:44.510
He said, what happened was I arrived
on the helicopter and I got off

00:42:44.510 --> 00:42:47.830
the helicopter and there was Jerry
Garcia of the Grateful Dead sitting.

00:42:47.860 --> 00:42:49.530
He said, here, take these.

00:42:51.245 --> 00:42:51.595
What are these?

00:42:51.835 --> 00:42:54.685
And they said, these are very,
very, this is very, very strong LSD.

00:42:54.695 --> 00:42:58.365
However, you're on the bill
to go up in about six hours.

00:42:58.565 --> 00:43:01.715
This is a long concert, so you've
got time to go up and go down.

00:43:01.715 --> 00:43:03.285
And so he went, okay, I did the math.

00:43:03.545 --> 00:43:04.395
I think I could do that.

00:43:04.735 --> 00:43:08.065
And he took him apparently half
an hour and said, okay, you're up.

00:43:08.915 --> 00:43:10.885
And he said, he went on stage.

00:43:11.365 --> 00:43:16.315
And his guitar neck became a
snake that he couldn't control

00:43:16.665 --> 00:43:17.695
wobbly snake that was right.

00:43:18.125 --> 00:43:21.905
And he said, all of those facial
expressions I'm doing on me saying,

00:43:23.475 --> 00:43:25.815
because I've got a rooted sense of
self saying I know I am actually

00:43:25.815 --> 00:43:28.905
Carlos Santana I know I am here
in front of 100, 000 people.

00:43:29.185 --> 00:43:30.295
And if this.

00:43:30.855 --> 00:43:32.925
goes to hell, that's the end of me.

00:43:33.455 --> 00:43:40.845
In this extreme distress saying to
the gitanic, no, no, he says, I'm

00:43:40.845 --> 00:43:42.885
saying, no, you will be a gitanic.

00:43:43.035 --> 00:43:46.245
You will not floppy thing
and try and get away from me.

00:43:46.445 --> 00:43:49.745
And he's of course playing the most
extraordinary music as he's doing it, but

00:43:49.745 --> 00:43:51.265
he said it was very, very, very stressful.

00:43:51.835 --> 00:43:56.035
And I remember watching that
on the plane and going, wow,

00:43:56.065 --> 00:43:57.595
that's such a good analogy for.

00:43:58.420 --> 00:44:00.640
What I think a lot of people
with neurodivergence go through,

00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:02.200
particularly in early years.

00:44:03.230 --> 00:44:03.730
Kim Barthel: Amazing.

00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:10.820
I know you know a lot about compassion
and I think that what's important

00:44:11.290 --> 00:44:14.490
in this conversation to me is that.

00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:18.890
And that's where it comes back to
that question you asked me about the

00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:28.530
behavioral approach, which is such a
different way of engaging with humans.

00:44:30.545 --> 00:44:37.265
And how important it is to try, try to
put our mind in the mind of the other.

00:44:39.855 --> 00:44:44.095
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well, of course,
if one's trying to train robots, then,

00:44:44.095 --> 00:44:48.455
of course, either to go into battle
or stand in a factory line, that

00:44:48.455 --> 00:44:50.105
becomes of lesser importance, right?

00:44:50.605 --> 00:44:53.165
And that, you know, it's the
inheritance, I think, of behaviorism.

00:44:53.505 --> 00:44:55.755
Because I certainly went through a
school system that was a bit like that.

00:44:55.775 --> 00:44:59.215
They made us behave in certain
ways that were designed to inure

00:44:59.215 --> 00:45:03.565
us to combat, basically, to be
officers of the British Empire.

00:45:04.235 --> 00:45:07.295
You'd be first over the top
into the machine gun fire.

00:45:08.875 --> 00:45:10.165
And I think it works for that

00:45:11.395 --> 00:45:14.575
Kim Barthel: Compliance is
necessary under extreme danger.

00:45:14.665 --> 00:45:15.775
Rupert Isaacson: Under extreme danger.

00:45:15.805 --> 00:45:15.955
But

00:45:16.675 --> 00:45:18.025
Kim Barthel: not when you,
not when you spill your milk.

00:45:18.310 --> 00:45:19.015
Rupert Isaacson: No, no.

00:45:19.015 --> 00:45:21.385
And I remember thinking, why
do I want a compliant kid?

00:45:21.995 --> 00:45:23.915
Because if I get a compliant
kid, that's a kid that will

00:45:23.915 --> 00:45:25.115
get into a car with an adult.

00:45:25.115 --> 00:45:28.505
Just because the adult, the adult
says, I'm an adult, you must comply.

00:45:28.505 --> 00:45:29.195
Get in the car.

00:45:29.675 --> 00:45:32.135
I want a cooperative kid.

00:45:32.135 --> 00:45:34.335
Yeah, but I also want a challenging kid.

00:45:34.335 --> 00:45:36.135
I want a kid that says,
no, I don't know you.

00:45:36.135 --> 00:45:36.735
Who are you?

00:45:37.445 --> 00:45:37.565
Right.

00:45:37.565 --> 00:45:38.705
I'm not getting in that car.

00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:43.970
Kim Barthel: And compliance
actually diminishes curiosity.

00:45:44.290 --> 00:45:44.800
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

00:45:46.240 --> 00:45:51.090
So, okay, we've got a largely
equestrian audience here.

00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:56.070
And as I often say, we equestrians
are a bit autistic in terms

00:45:56.070 --> 00:45:59.730
of our obsession with ponies.

00:46:00.730 --> 00:46:04.120
And it can be a bit hard for us
to think in other terms sometimes.

00:46:05.490 --> 00:46:08.230
What are your, give us your best advice.

00:46:09.160 --> 00:46:11.640
If we are trying to serve.

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:18.010
A child's or a person's neuro
system, nervous system and brain.

00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:25.560
What are the three or four main
things that if we don't do, will

00:46:25.560 --> 00:46:30.120
not just not have us succeed, but
will absolutely ensure failure?

00:46:30.140 --> 00:46:32.880
What are the things that we
must be aware of and must do?

00:46:33.430 --> 00:46:37.740
Kim Barthel: Number one, in all
contexts of learning, is safety.

00:46:39.905 --> 00:46:42.655
And this comes from attunement.

00:46:44.445 --> 00:46:51.345
My experience of horses is they are
incredible at this, in the attunement

00:46:52.385 --> 00:46:55.405
to the person that they're with.

00:46:57.235 --> 00:47:04.320
But also for us as facilitators in this
process, safety is part of our job.

00:47:04.590 --> 00:47:06.290
It's our responsibility as well.

00:47:07.030 --> 00:47:10.240
And when I use the word safety, I'm
not just talking about physical safety.

00:47:11.070 --> 00:47:18.520
I'm talking about the speed that
we move into situations the tone

00:47:18.520 --> 00:47:25.160
of voice that we use, the nonverbal
communication that we use as the adults.

00:47:25.460 --> 00:47:27.190
Rupert Isaacson: You're
talking about emotional safety.

00:47:27.600 --> 00:47:28.090
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:47:29.520 --> 00:47:33.740
That is the backdrop for the
nervous system to open the door.

00:47:34.335 --> 00:47:37.585
To the greatest degree
of plasticity is safety.

00:47:39.205 --> 00:47:42.855
The second, whoops, the
second variability is

00:47:43.055 --> 00:47:43.725
Rupert Isaacson: repetition.

00:47:44.395 --> 00:47:47.155
You froze and a little thumbs
up came out of your brain.

00:47:47.435 --> 00:47:49.685
So I'm thumbs upping
your brain for that one.

00:47:49.685 --> 00:47:50.815
I couldn't agree more.

00:47:50.835 --> 00:47:54.085
The emotional, the emotional safety.

00:47:54.085 --> 00:47:59.775
So hard for horsey people because we're
so bossy without even knowing we're bossy.

00:48:00.325 --> 00:48:01.215
Kim Barthel: And it's important.

00:48:01.225 --> 00:48:02.505
That's an important variable.

00:48:02.635 --> 00:48:02.875
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:48:03.625 --> 00:48:04.395
Kim Barthel: Repetition.

00:48:04.915 --> 00:48:12.785
Number two is that the brain loves
repetition from the perspective of wiring.

00:48:13.995 --> 00:48:24.265
So when you are looking to establish a
pattern of relative permanent change, it

00:48:24.265 --> 00:48:26.115
means I need to do it again and again.

00:48:26.850 --> 00:48:31.610
And the third one, you asked me for
three, is the brain is a predictive brain.

00:48:32.905 --> 00:48:38.195
So it is constantly, whether
you're neurodiverse or not, the

00:48:38.195 --> 00:48:41.675
brain is constantly trying to fill
in the story of what it expects.

00:48:43.485 --> 00:48:49.655
And so the more often there's
clarity and predictability in how

00:48:49.655 --> 00:48:55.005
you present what you do, the greater
the degree the brain can rest.

00:48:55.925 --> 00:49:01.855
In, again, safety, but also in its
potential to expand a new pattern.

00:49:03.235 --> 00:49:08.155
So, emotional safety,
repetition, and predictability.

00:49:09.335 --> 00:49:12.365
Rupert Isaacson: Now, play
devil's advocate there.

00:49:12.855 --> 00:49:14.545
Emotional safety, no devil's advocate.

00:49:14.905 --> 00:49:20.785
But for repetition and predictability,
of course, we want to begin to

00:49:21.005 --> 00:49:26.445
help people to acquire the skill
of dealing with non predictability,

00:49:27.745 --> 00:49:28.755
because that's going to happen.

00:49:29.600 --> 00:49:32.860
And stuff that comes novel new.

00:49:33.410 --> 00:49:37.090
I need to learn it quickly
without repetition.

00:49:37.550 --> 00:49:43.490
Can you talk us through how
paying attention to repetition and

00:49:43.600 --> 00:49:48.030
Predictability helps us deal with non
repetition and non predictability.

00:49:48.590 --> 00:49:49.120
Kim Barthel: Love it.

00:49:49.160 --> 00:49:51.240
And that's not a devil's
advocate question.

00:49:51.830 --> 00:49:53.130
It's a very good question.

00:49:55.170 --> 00:50:01.410
I need to have a foundation,
a platform first.

00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:08.605
And all that we've just spoken about
around, The ambiguity of processing,

00:50:09.385 --> 00:50:15.535
the lack of security in my own reliable
way of understanding the world,

00:50:16.915 --> 00:50:25.705
that once that predictability and
repetition are foundationally there,

00:50:25.705 --> 00:50:30.765
I have a launchpad to then move from.

00:50:32.085 --> 00:50:35.985
So in, in my world, we call this
the just the just right challenge,

00:50:37.965 --> 00:50:41.925
where me as the support person.

00:50:42.985 --> 00:50:52.785
is, again, through attunement, offering
both security and risk in ways that are

00:50:52.785 --> 00:51:01.875
scaffolded so that the person knows that
they can do it without moving outside

00:51:01.875 --> 00:51:07.255
their window of tolerance into fear, both
physically, emotionally, cognitively.

00:51:09.645 --> 00:51:11.105
And so it's not black and white.

00:51:11.535 --> 00:51:19.065
Right, it's, it's an in the moment thing
of I watch you, I see the tenuousness

00:51:19.065 --> 00:51:23.805
in you, and I may say, we can do this.

00:51:25.515 --> 00:51:26.125
It's okay.

00:51:27.465 --> 00:51:31.225
And the nervous system becomes available.

00:51:32.445 --> 00:51:39.875
Alternately, I might choose a task that
is genuinely too hard and dysregulates or

00:51:39.945 --> 00:51:46.995
decomposes That doesn't mean I've lost,
it means I have an opportunity for repair

00:51:49.045 --> 00:51:54.585
where the person then knows they
can survive a challenge that they,

00:51:54.885 --> 00:51:57.015
all of this happens in the arena.

00:51:57.135 --> 00:51:57.675
I think

00:52:01.825 --> 00:52:03.250
Rupert Isaacson: When you
say in the arena, you, you,

00:52:03.295 --> 00:52:04.525
you mean in the riding arena?

00:52:04.735 --> 00:52:05.035
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

00:52:05.160 --> 00:52:05.450
Yeah.

00:52:06.465 --> 00:52:10.645
Rupert Isaacson: I think that's one of
the reasons why with what we do with horse

00:52:10.645 --> 00:52:12.355
boy, we actually try to get out of arenas,

00:52:12.595 --> 00:52:13.315
Kim Barthel: out of the arena

00:52:13.695 --> 00:52:16.245
Rupert Isaacson: because we
want to encounter the world.

00:52:16.685 --> 00:52:16.985
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:52:17.755 --> 00:52:21.425
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, obviously if the
weather's terrible in the arena, but if

00:52:21.535 --> 00:52:24.565
we can, we want to encounter the world.

00:52:27.485 --> 00:52:31.315
As you say, I want to give a platform of

00:52:33.325 --> 00:52:33.725
trust.

00:52:33.725 --> 00:52:34.715
It'll be all rightness.

00:52:35.865 --> 00:52:40.335
If we go out there and we will
encounter some things we don't know

00:52:42.895 --> 00:52:45.255
and will, but not too much.

00:52:46.555 --> 00:52:49.245
So I need a certain amount of
control over the environment, at

00:52:49.245 --> 00:52:51.725
least in the early stages later on.

00:52:52.235 --> 00:52:55.255
So, so basically, do you feel
it's about building resilience?

00:52:55.700 --> 00:52:56.090
Kim Barthel: Yes.

00:52:56.500 --> 00:52:56.840
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:52:58.710 --> 00:53:03.120
Kim Barthel: And that resilience
is, comes from trust, right?

00:53:04.030 --> 00:53:07.810
It begins with trust, trust of you,
trust of the horse, trust of me.

00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:11.940
And then I can venture into the unknown.

00:53:12.540 --> 00:53:14.100
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting you bring this up.

00:53:14.190 --> 00:53:19.380
When I was spending a lot of time
with Kalahari San Bushman, I didn't

00:53:19.390 --> 00:53:20.950
realize, but when I was being given a.

00:53:21.380 --> 00:53:23.380
mentorship in parenting.

00:53:24.240 --> 00:53:28.470
And the reason was that what I was
observing, the first thing I observed

00:53:28.770 --> 00:53:33.410
was that they co slept with their kids
and they didn't co sleep with their kids

00:53:33.410 --> 00:53:35.690
from some philosophical point of view.

00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:39.930
They said, hyenas come at night, right?

00:53:40.080 --> 00:53:43.470
And they will take your shoes off
your feet and you won't even feel it.

00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:50.900
They will certainly take your baby or
your infant or even your small child that

00:53:50.900 --> 00:53:53.870
is even 60 centimeters away from you.

00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:58.585
And you won't know So the only way you
can keep them safe, let alone warm,

00:53:58.645 --> 00:54:01.585
because it also gets very cold at night
there, is to put them between two adults.

00:54:02.165 --> 00:54:07.285
And the hyena's less likely
to mess with that situation.

00:54:07.285 --> 00:54:08.745
That's why we do it, Rupert,
that's what they say.

00:54:09.145 --> 00:54:10.845
And I was like, got it, got it.

00:54:10.905 --> 00:54:14.175
And I was like, oh gosh, right, so if
a baby's crying, because you put it in

00:54:14.215 --> 00:54:17.195
a crib to cry it out, I was put that
way, I'm sure you were put that way.

00:54:17.645 --> 00:54:23.785
It means that somewhere in our nervous
system, in our, in our ancient DNA.

00:54:25.070 --> 00:54:27.420
It's saying, I've been
left here for the hyenas.

00:54:27.810 --> 00:54:28.570
Better scream.

00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:30.820
No one's coming.

00:54:31.990 --> 00:54:33.920
Oh, hyenas will get me.

00:54:34.640 --> 00:54:38.000
And therefore a certain
despair must kick in.

00:54:38.780 --> 00:54:48.055
I wonder how much of our You know, angst
and neurosis comes from those sorts

00:54:48.055 --> 00:54:55.465
of experiences that we have when we're
barely conscious, but we're experiencing

00:54:55.465 --> 00:54:56.965
it on a, you know, on that DNA level.

00:54:57.195 --> 00:54:57.865
And then

00:54:59.985 --> 00:55:02.975
what I noticed, so then of
course I co slept, right?

00:55:03.415 --> 00:55:06.635
And I remember a couple of my
friends saying, but Rupert, aren't

00:55:06.675 --> 00:55:10.315
you worried that Roan will end up
really dependent if you do that.

00:55:10.675 --> 00:55:14.135
And what I'd observed with these kids
is that at about 16, they get up, they

00:55:14.135 --> 00:55:17.755
take a spear, and they go into the bush,
and they come back with a wildebeest,

00:55:17.845 --> 00:55:19.725
you know, and dodging the lions.

00:55:19.725 --> 00:55:24.105
It's like, no, they seem to, it
seems that if you give them all this

00:55:24.105 --> 00:55:28.385
unconditional love at the beginning,
weirdly, they are more secure.

00:55:29.155 --> 00:55:29.645
Kim Barthel: Exactly.

00:55:30.675 --> 00:55:32.645
Completely, completely agree.

00:55:36.815 --> 00:55:38.405
Rupert Isaacson: What do
you think is the most,

00:55:40.990 --> 00:55:48.300
common error most of us that work in
the field of neurodivergence routinely

00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:51.960
make, and what's the sort of easy fix
that we often miss that we don't see?

00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:55.030
Kim Barthel: You are asking
me all the hardest questions.

00:55:57.020 --> 00:56:05.060
I think the greatest error we make is
trying to come to some sense of what

00:56:05.060 --> 00:56:09.000
we think normal is, the myth of normal,

00:56:11.070 --> 00:56:20.395
and that we are trying to be guided
by goals that are constructed

00:56:20.545 --> 00:56:23.265
to help that person fit in.

00:56:25.085 --> 00:56:30.055
That's going to take us a long time
to shift and change, but I think

00:56:30.065 --> 00:56:39.875
those of us who work with and support
individuals who are different is to

00:56:39.995 --> 00:56:46.435
help them see their own value in who
they are and allow them an increased

00:56:46.465 --> 00:56:49.355
opportunity to feel safe in themselves.

00:56:50.310 --> 00:56:52.440
So that they can become their best self.

00:56:53.300 --> 00:56:53.960
Rupert Isaacson: How do we do that?

00:56:55.540 --> 00:56:57.560
Kim Barthel: Journey, it's
like a journey, really.

00:56:58.890 --> 00:57:08.230
It's, it's a ongoing standing
alongside with curiosity about what's

00:57:08.240 --> 00:57:15.490
interesting to you and how do I
join you and you just described it.

00:57:16.220 --> 00:57:24.300
In your Kalahari example, how do I join
you, keep you safe, and build a bridge

00:57:24.310 --> 00:57:26.470
for you to explore at the same time?

00:57:26.780 --> 00:57:28.830
And we're talking about human attachment,

00:57:31.190 --> 00:57:34.380
which is a unfolding process.

00:57:37.050 --> 00:57:38.730
We could talk about this forever.

00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:40.630
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, we could.

00:57:40.730 --> 00:57:41.610
I fully intend to.

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:47.220
Kim Barthel: I am, I'm not
inviting myself, but I am coming

00:57:47.220 --> 00:57:49.580
to teach in Ireland in in October.

00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:50.260
So.

00:57:50.925 --> 00:57:53.815
Maybe there's an opportunity
to meet in person.

00:57:53.995 --> 00:57:55.065
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, we will be there.

00:57:55.285 --> 00:57:58.035
And you need to meet and
everyone listening needs to

00:57:58.035 --> 00:58:00.045
meet a man called David Doyle.

00:58:01.515 --> 00:58:04.885
David will not come on this
podcast, even though he is the man

00:58:04.885 --> 00:58:08.095
I probably work the closest with
in my, you know, professionally.

00:58:09.155 --> 00:58:12.195
Because he hates to public speak,
even though he's really good at it.

00:58:13.025 --> 00:58:17.885
And he is, in fact, I think the modern
day incarnation of the Wizard Merlin.

00:58:18.435 --> 00:58:22.275
In a, in a bad pullover.

00:58:22.825 --> 00:58:23.815
He'll kill me for saying that.

00:58:24.315 --> 00:58:26.825
But he's, he's an extraordinary,
extraordinary person.

00:58:26.845 --> 00:58:32.670
And yes, I would love I would love to
work with you in the many horse boy

00:58:32.670 --> 00:58:36.750
movement method places that are growing
in Ireland because Ireland is where the

00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:43.660
Minister of Health, Anne Rabbit, just got
behind the latest horse boy place which is

00:58:43.660 --> 00:58:49.360
called Stuarts Care in Kilchloon outside
of County Meath, outside of Dublin.

00:58:50.805 --> 00:58:53.795
It's a very ambitious, very
large scale project and she

00:58:54.235 --> 00:58:56.245
has put the ministry behind it.

00:58:56.265 --> 00:59:02.635
So yes, I think there's, there's a
natural a natural collaboration there

00:59:02.635 --> 00:59:07.535
and I would invite anyone listening to
try and get your asses over to Ireland

00:59:07.585 --> 00:59:11.745
and come hang with us over there with
what's going on because it is really good.

00:59:11.745 --> 00:59:15.435
You know what we don't have going on
much, Kim, is, is stuff in Canada.

00:59:16.615 --> 00:59:18.535
But it sounds like you've got it
covered, so we don't have to worry.

00:59:19.605 --> 00:59:20.115
Kim Barthel: Hardly.

00:59:20.785 --> 00:59:24.685
And lots of lots of topper
opportunity for conversation.

00:59:25.005 --> 00:59:25.565
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:59:25.985 --> 00:59:26.395
Kim Barthel: Good.

00:59:28.095 --> 00:59:28.505
Thank you.

00:59:28.755 --> 00:59:29.955
Rupert Isaacson: Do you need to run?

00:59:30.545 --> 00:59:31.165
Kim Barthel: I do.

00:59:31.405 --> 00:59:31.915
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:59:32.505 --> 00:59:33.685
They're actually standing

00:59:33.685 --> 00:59:35.165
Kim Barthel: at the stop of the stairs.

00:59:35.275 --> 00:59:35.775
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:59:35.895 --> 00:59:36.635
Kim Barthel: Waiting for me to stop.

00:59:36.635 --> 00:59:36.834
Waiting

00:59:36.834 --> 00:59:37.630
Rupert Isaacson: for
the construction guys.

00:59:37.630 --> 00:59:38.028
All right.

00:59:38.028 --> 00:59:41.655
Well, I think what we're going
to do, Kim, because this is too

00:59:41.655 --> 00:59:43.490
good of an opportunity To miss.

00:59:43.490 --> 00:59:45.290
I'm gonna have you come back
on, if that's all right.

00:59:45.590 --> 00:59:48.350
I want to go a little deeper
into the neuroscience.

00:59:48.380 --> 00:59:48.770
Okay.

00:59:49.350 --> 00:59:51.660
So with your permission,
we'll do a round two.

00:59:52.650 --> 00:59:53.340
Kim Barthel: That's lovely.

00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:55.890
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, listeners,
we actually had to take a break, in

00:59:55.890 --> 01:00:00.030
between the first part of this podcast
and this one because, Kim's a busy

01:00:00.030 --> 01:00:06.580
lady, and she had to go on a massive
world tour doing incredible work.

01:00:06.910 --> 01:00:12.110
And now she's back, and she's back
from outer space, here to find her

01:00:12.110 --> 01:00:13.380
here without that look upon her face.

01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:15.220
Sorry, I couldn't, I
couldn't resist that one.

01:00:15.720 --> 01:00:16.450
she's.

01:00:17.670 --> 01:00:21.770
Got some interesting stuff to report,
and there's a lot that we need to know

01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:26.110
from her, and the people she works with
about trauma, but any of us that are

01:00:26.120 --> 01:00:31.300
in this line of work, this is a rapidly
developing field, and particularly

01:00:31.300 --> 01:00:36.720
when we're dealing with, people with
neurodivergence, it gets complex.

01:00:37.330 --> 01:00:41.500
so welcome back, Kim,
what have you been up to?

01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:46.570
Kim Barthel: First of all, let
me say it's exciting to be back

01:00:46.850 --> 01:00:48.340
and have a conversation with you.

01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:54.180
one of the interesting things that
happens to me in dialogue with you

01:00:54.300 --> 01:01:00.070
that is unique is that, you know, when
you think about this concept of tuning

01:01:00.070 --> 01:01:06.050
forks and you hold one up and one is
sitting beside, and if they're not quite

01:01:06.050 --> 01:01:07.570
at the right frequency, they don't.

01:01:08.385 --> 01:01:08.985
Resonate.

01:01:10.145 --> 01:01:17.035
And when, I hear your questions,
listen to what you are thinking about,

01:01:17.035 --> 01:01:22.795
my frequency just dials up at such a
high vibration that it it's exciting.

01:01:23.755 --> 01:01:30.375
And, I find myself having to work
to contain it so that I can even.

01:01:30.940 --> 01:01:38.090
Slow down long enough to think just at
the, at the enthusiasm that I have for

01:01:38.090 --> 01:01:40.640
what, comes out of these dialogues.

01:01:40.950 --> 01:01:42.470
It's quite an honor for me.

01:01:42.830 --> 01:01:44.480
So I wanted to start by saying that.

01:01:46.470 --> 01:01:46.670
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:01:46.670 --> 01:01:47.300
So what have you been up to?

01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:48.750
Kim Barthel: So what have I been up to?

01:01:49.230 --> 01:01:55.350
Well, we have been, we, I say we, because,
Bob Spensley, who is my husband and

01:01:55.350 --> 01:01:59.530
business partner, we have been on the
road since the middle, beginning, middle

01:01:59.530 --> 01:02:04.150
of August and, sharing, but you know,

01:02:04.640 --> 01:02:05.920
Rupert Isaacson: it's, Where
have you been on the road?

01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:07.660
You haven't just gone like
down the road to the shop.

01:02:07.670 --> 01:02:08.270
No, no.

01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:09.600
Where, where have you,
where have you been?

01:02:09.640 --> 01:02:11.120
Kim Barthel: Six, six continents.

01:02:13.810 --> 01:02:14.120
Rupert Isaacson: Why?

01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:15.630
What were you up to?

01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:18.990
Kim Barthel: I was thinking about
saying sharing knowledge, but

01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:25.130
that is so inaccurate because
it's a mutual experience.

01:02:26.050 --> 01:02:33.720
It's not just a sense of Kim and Bob
going on the road, giving a workshop.

01:02:34.430 --> 01:02:42.730
It's a holistic gathering of
experience that builds on itself.

01:02:42.730 --> 01:02:49.940
And what I, what we find is the world
has more in common than you can imagine,

01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:56.710
you know, despite the context, the
culture, the distance, the climate,

01:02:57.270 --> 01:03:03.050
all these variables that shape the
differences from one place to another,

01:03:03.770 --> 01:03:05.770
there is more similarity than difference.

01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:06.370
What's

01:03:06.950 --> 01:03:08.890
Rupert Isaacson: the main theme
that's come out of these workshops?

01:03:09.090 --> 01:03:13.250
And for those of us who are working in
this equine assisted field, what do you

01:03:13.250 --> 01:03:17.370
feel Other resonances that are coming
out now that we should all be aware of.

01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:23.900
Kim Barthel: It seems that
there is a need, a desperate

01:03:23.900 --> 01:03:28.510
need, for a feeling and of hope

01:03:28.830 --> 01:03:28.910
Rupert Isaacson: that

01:03:29.470 --> 01:03:31.250
Kim Barthel: can lead to agency.

01:03:31.950 --> 01:03:32.240
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:03:33.285 --> 01:03:35.925
Kim Barthel: And, and this theme
is pervasive no matter where

01:03:36.315 --> 01:03:38.305
Rupert Isaacson: people feeling
powerless, people feeling lost,

01:03:39.075 --> 01:03:42.765
Kim Barthel: people feeling
powerless, people feeling victimized,

01:03:43.655 --> 01:03:52.935
people feeling hopeless in their
capacity to have any ability to

01:03:52.965 --> 01:03:54.735
create a difference for themselves.

01:03:56.975 --> 01:04:00.225
And even though we have
lived through a pandemic.

01:04:01.215 --> 01:04:05.085
And this may, in fact,
be partly post pandemic.

01:04:05.775 --> 01:04:09.745
It was more obvious than last year.

01:04:10.995 --> 01:04:11.395
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:04:12.925 --> 01:04:16.355
is that because of just
combined world events?

01:04:16.405 --> 01:04:18.205
Russia, Gaza, climate?

01:04:19.395 --> 01:04:20.025
Kim Barthel: Definitely.

01:04:20.585 --> 01:04:24.435
Rupert Isaacson: Or is it, is it, is it
not really event specific, do you think?

01:04:24.435 --> 01:04:25.080
What, what's going

01:04:25.080 --> 01:04:25.405
Kim Barthel: on?

01:04:25.405 --> 01:04:29.695
I think my perception is,
is that people hook it.

01:04:29.695 --> 01:04:29.785
I don't know.

01:04:33.135 --> 01:04:42.175
But it's the event is a moving target
of placement of underlying angst.

01:04:43.475 --> 01:04:43.825
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:04:44.675 --> 01:04:46.405
And you feel this angst
is getting greater.

01:04:46.935 --> 01:04:47.485
Kim Barthel: I do.

01:04:47.965 --> 01:05:00.305
And there's a sense of Need for increased
compassion and connection, connection

01:05:00.305 --> 01:05:10.445
with each other as a way of in, in a
way that is honoring of each other's

01:05:11.395 --> 01:05:15.175
beliefs, values, systems of engagement.

01:05:17.655 --> 01:05:22.525
So there, there is a need for
honoring connection, but, and,

01:05:22.525 --> 01:05:24.365
and being heard and valued.

01:05:24.655 --> 01:05:25.715
More than I've ever seen.

01:05:29.155 --> 01:05:29.975
Rupert Isaacson: What are the tools?

01:05:30.005 --> 01:05:31.655
What's the main tools that you go in?

01:05:31.695 --> 01:05:34.685
And again, I'm putting, I'm
imagining the listeners.

01:05:35.695 --> 01:05:39.525
Probably nodding as they're
driving listening to this thinking.

01:05:39.525 --> 01:05:42.145
Yeah, actually gosh This is a lot of
the people walking through my door right

01:05:42.145 --> 01:05:47.575
now This is a lot of my clients set
even because I think for a lot of us who

01:05:47.575 --> 01:05:53.015
started with Working with say, you know
quite severely autistic people and so on

01:05:53.395 --> 01:05:59.775
although We still do, but now we've kind
of worked with everybody and it seems

01:05:59.785 --> 01:06:02.385
that everyone's amygdala is jangling.

01:06:02.975 --> 01:06:08.495
and now people are walking through
our door who would not have walked

01:06:08.495 --> 01:06:10.795
through our door five years ago,
I think, you know, pre pandemic.

01:06:11.225 --> 01:06:17.435
So when you begin your workshops, can you,
can you tell us what's in your toolbox?

01:06:17.435 --> 01:06:20.615
What are, what are like the five, six
main things that you walk in there

01:06:20.615 --> 01:06:22.625
and say, listen, lads, this will help.

01:06:23.815 --> 01:06:27.585
Kim Barthel: Well, the very
first thing that happens.

01:06:28.545 --> 01:06:34.375
In a workshop, in any workshop, in
every workshop is story storytelling.

01:06:35.485 --> 01:06:40.615
I mean, one of the things I think
that I am known for is plugging

01:06:40.615 --> 01:06:46.705
into story, which is so different
than sharing of information

01:06:48.795 --> 01:06:50.925
and through the.

01:06:52.735 --> 01:06:57.715
emotional vibration of story,
it immediately creates a

01:06:57.715 --> 01:06:59.595
sense of I'm not alone.

01:07:01.795 --> 01:07:02.695
Rupert Isaacson: Common humanity.

01:07:02.785 --> 01:07:03.055
Yeah.

01:07:03.105 --> 01:07:03.295
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

01:07:03.885 --> 01:07:09.175
And I think that, you know, like, for
example, one story I tell all the time is

01:07:09.175 --> 01:07:16.270
about a kid that sat in my office for two
years, In the Arctic of Canada, who was

01:07:16.520 --> 01:07:22.790
an elective mute, he had witnessed his
grandmother be mauled by a polar bear.

01:07:23.970 --> 01:07:26.470
And he had nine different
labels attached to him.

01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:32.930
And he was so angry and so dangerous.

01:07:34.650 --> 01:07:39.530
And he sat with me in
silence for two years.

01:07:41.040 --> 01:07:43.380
And I felt like such a failure.

01:07:44.260 --> 01:07:45.980
Because I wasn't doing anything.

01:07:47.550 --> 01:07:49.440
I wasn't doing psychotherapy.

01:07:50.540 --> 01:07:56.500
It felt empty, and I worried
about him all the time.

01:07:57.970 --> 01:08:03.540
When we left the Arctic, I was
concerned that he, in fact, may end

01:08:03.540 --> 01:08:07.680
his life or be dangerous to others.

01:08:09.370 --> 01:08:14.870
And so five years after leaving this
location, I got to see him again.

01:08:16.250 --> 01:08:22.220
And he walked up to me in the Inuit Centre
in Southern Canada and said, You, Blondie.

01:08:23.940 --> 01:08:25.870
I heard his voice for the first time.

01:08:27.220 --> 01:08:30.600
And he said to me, want you to
know, you stopped me from killing

01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:33.240
myself every day for two years.

01:08:34.300 --> 01:08:38.940
And I carry you with me in my
head and my heart every day.

01:08:41.110 --> 01:08:47.010
And the reason that story is so important
is because it's not about doing, it's

01:08:47.010 --> 01:08:58.160
about being with people from a state of
love, presence, connection, and all of us

01:08:58.160 --> 01:09:00.440
worry about what it is we're going to say.

01:09:00.450 --> 01:09:00.480
Okay.

01:09:01.150 --> 01:09:01.480
Hmm.

01:09:02.900 --> 01:09:03.340
And so.

01:09:04.220 --> 01:09:10.890
That story, for example, leaves
people feeling, I can do that too.

01:09:12.850 --> 01:09:19.290
I can show up, be present, sit
with people, listen, tap into

01:09:19.290 --> 01:09:22.280
love, and that has meaning.

01:09:25.100 --> 01:09:26.310
Rupert Isaacson: This
is really interesting.

01:09:26.410 --> 01:09:30.360
you know, I have a couple of boys that
come to me from a local international

01:09:30.360 --> 01:09:32.320
school, more or less weekly.

01:09:32.460 --> 01:09:33.720
And, They

01:09:36.160 --> 01:09:37.940
come with certain stories,

01:09:41.040 --> 01:09:42.360
and what I find

01:09:44.510 --> 01:09:48.720
their great need is, is for
space and moving through nature.

01:09:50.100 --> 01:09:55.370
And of course I can provide that because
I can take off into the forest with them

01:09:55.370 --> 01:09:58.760
with a couple of horses so that when they
get, initially they actually often want

01:09:58.770 --> 01:10:02.110
to walk, but then when they get tired,
their legs get tired, they can ride.

01:10:03.675 --> 01:10:12.985
And I can provide things like the
creek, and groves of beech trees, or

01:10:15.075 --> 01:10:22.695
a particular oak, or a place we know
where you're likely to see deer, or a

01:10:22.705 --> 01:10:26.975
little thing where, a place you have to
scramble over some rocks, and it changes

01:10:26.975 --> 01:10:31.230
with the season, places we go to gather
apples in the fall or in the winter.

01:10:32.380 --> 01:10:35.750
Cherries in the early summer or whatever.

01:10:37.260 --> 01:10:40.220
And what I find you're dead right
is that the stories just come out.

01:10:40.770 --> 01:10:45.520
I don't need to ask much except once
they get rolling, of course, oxytocin,

01:10:45.580 --> 01:10:47.470
rocking the hips, they tend to talk.

01:10:47.830 --> 01:10:51.980
once they're on that horse, you know, it's
a communication hormone, but then I can

01:10:51.980 --> 01:10:57.840
then respond and then what often happens
is there's just mutual storytelling.

01:10:58.250 --> 01:11:03.890
So the story can be, you know, Me talking
about what's going on in the landscape,

01:11:03.900 --> 01:11:07.620
that's a story, or why the landscape
looks the way it does, and that's a story.

01:11:08.070 --> 01:11:11.600
could be history, could be
geology, could be, and then maybe

01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:14.310
an experience that I've had that
matches an experience that they've

01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:15.680
had, and it becomes a conversation.

01:11:15.690 --> 01:11:19.150
And I think you're right that,
that this type of connection

01:11:19.150 --> 01:11:23.410
and this type of conversation,
funnily enough, can't be taken for

01:11:23.410 --> 01:11:24.950
granted anymore, but it used to be.

01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:26.990
What do you think about that?

01:11:27.010 --> 01:11:32.550
What, I mean, have we, are we, losing?

01:11:34.175 --> 01:11:36.695
The, the skill to converse and connect.

01:11:38.075 --> 01:11:39.465
Kim Barthel: There are
a few, there are some,

01:11:39.915 --> 01:11:41.305
Rupert Isaacson: just to talk,
yeah, talk to me about that.

01:11:41.605 --> 01:11:46.455
Kim Barthel: There are beautiful
elements in what you said that are

01:11:46.455 --> 01:11:47.845
more than just the conversation.

01:11:49.625 --> 01:12:00.305
And it's the concept of holding space,
which is bigger than dialogue that

01:12:00.325 --> 01:12:10.525
comes with intention, and a sense of
willingness to be present to the other.

01:12:12.375 --> 01:12:15.665
And that is a skill set
because it requires attunement.

01:12:17.945 --> 01:12:25.465
So as I listened to you tell the
story of nature, which does so much

01:12:25.465 --> 01:12:32.785
of the work for us and the presence
of the horse, which does so much of

01:12:32.785 --> 01:12:36.405
the work, it makes room for safety

01:12:38.605 --> 01:12:46.685
for relationship to perhaps be safe
for the first time for some of the

01:12:47.075 --> 01:12:50.275
people that join us in these spaces.

01:12:51.590 --> 01:12:53.830
Safety cannot be taken for granted.

01:12:55.540 --> 01:13:05.920
So the elements of nature and the horse
and you, what a combination of opportunity

01:13:06.570 --> 01:13:14.120
that is active in evoking a sense or
a portal to the feeling of safety.

01:13:18.940 --> 01:13:22.830
Rupert Isaacson: Is it the feeling of,
yeah, so it's, it's not so much perhaps

01:13:22.830 --> 01:13:27.500
then, Or is it not so much, perhaps, then,
that we're losing the ability to converse,

01:13:27.500 --> 01:13:30.270
or we're losing the ability to connect?

01:13:30.410 --> 01:13:32.740
Because we seem to connect,
you know, whenever we can, and

01:13:32.810 --> 01:13:34.330
we're a connective species.

01:13:34.350 --> 01:13:37.280
But, is it safety that we've lost?

01:13:37.330 --> 01:13:43.630
Is it, weirdly, although most of us
live in very, very safe, physically very

01:13:43.630 --> 01:13:46.590
safe, environments, why have we lost?

01:13:46.610 --> 01:13:48.080
A sense of safety.

01:13:49.260 --> 01:13:50.820
Kim Barthel: Well, when you
ask that question to me,

01:13:50.820 --> 01:13:52.380
I'm not sure I ever had it.

01:13:52.700 --> 01:13:53.450
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm . Go on.

01:13:53.570 --> 01:13:54.200
Kim Barthel: Really?

01:13:54.770 --> 01:13:56.360
I mean, I'm right, but

01:13:56.360 --> 01:13:58.370
Rupert Isaacson: you're not, the,
the bums are not dropping, you know?

01:13:58.370 --> 01:13:58.580
No.

01:13:58.580 --> 01:13:58.700
Right.

01:13:58.760 --> 01:13:59.075
Where you are.

01:13:59.095 --> 01:13:59.720
You know what I mean?

01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:01.520
It's, it's, so, there's a

01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:04.390
Kim Barthel: difference
between physical safety

01:14:04.630 --> 01:14:04.720
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm

01:14:05.320 --> 01:14:06.400
. 
Kim Barthel: And emotional safety.

01:14:07.510 --> 01:14:14.280
You can grow up in the most safe home
community and feel completely dismissed.

01:14:15.740 --> 01:14:22.280
Emotionally disconnected, not
valued, not seen, not heard.

01:14:23.420 --> 01:14:28.440
You can grow up in affluence where
everything is abundant in your

01:14:28.440 --> 01:14:32.680
environment and still not feel felt.

01:14:33.125 --> 01:14:33.875
By another person.

01:14:35.685 --> 01:14:38.585
So safety is relative and we
have that dialogue all the

01:14:38.585 --> 01:14:41.135
time that what is safe to one.

01:14:41.135 --> 01:14:46.285
I mean, there are so many communities
where there is danger and there

01:14:46.295 --> 01:14:48.345
is emotional relational safety.

01:14:48.755 --> 01:14:49.475
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:14:49.885 --> 01:14:50.245
No, you're right.

01:14:50.245 --> 01:14:53.685
I mean, I observed that among the
sun and the Bushmen, whether, you

01:14:53.685 --> 01:14:56.855
know, you go out into the bush and
there's lots of dangerous animals

01:14:56.855 --> 01:15:00.975
out there, but of course people are
very competent in that environment.

01:15:01.045 --> 01:15:03.605
So they know how to minimize those
dangers, but what they're not

01:15:03.605 --> 01:15:04.875
afraid of is their fellow human.

01:15:05.765 --> 01:15:06.325
At least.

01:15:06.735 --> 01:15:09.035
Not their own fellow humans.

01:15:09.125 --> 01:15:11.545
maybe some of the ones that
come in from the outside, but

01:15:16.595 --> 01:15:19.285
given that we have, I mean, okay,
there are wars going on and so on,

01:15:19.285 --> 01:15:24.225
but given that most of us have more
physical safety, I think, than ever,

01:15:27.915 --> 01:15:33.605
is that almost like an inverse
correlation between that and a

01:15:33.605 --> 01:15:34.915
sort of deadening of community?

01:15:34.915 --> 01:15:38.975
And does community almost need
a certain amount of mutually

01:15:38.975 --> 01:15:42.635
experienced risk in order to connect?

01:15:43.370 --> 01:15:50.465
Kim Barthel: I do believe that shared
experience of danger creates an

01:15:50.845 --> 01:15:59.105
interesting sense of intimacy because of
the collective collaboration required.

01:15:59.585 --> 01:16:00.185
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:16:00.955 --> 01:16:03.705
Yes, we cannot fragment or the
hyenas will eat us sort of thing.

01:16:03.845 --> 01:16:04.385
Kim Barthel: Exactly.

01:16:04.535 --> 01:16:04.835
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:16:04.945 --> 01:16:06.475
Kim Barthel: I mean, I will never forget.

01:16:06.565 --> 01:16:12.115
I worked on the India Pakistani
border during post earthquake.

01:16:13.145 --> 01:16:17.495
And these are people that generally
day to day despise each other.

01:16:18.885 --> 01:16:23.985
And under the conditions of shared danger,
they carried each other back and forth.

01:16:24.990 --> 01:16:31.610
Into safety the the shared experience
at least temporarily brought them

01:16:31.610 --> 01:16:35.960
into a space of care for each other.

01:16:36.550 --> 01:16:37.270
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:40.640
And presumably we don't want to
create, you know, unnecessary dangers.

01:16:42.280 --> 01:16:46.700
Is it that we need to create
joint senses of purpose?

01:16:47.230 --> 01:16:47.800
Kim Barthel: Correct.

01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:51.350
Completely.

01:16:51.400 --> 01:16:51.850
And is

01:16:51.850 --> 01:16:53.034
Rupert Isaacson: the hopelessness
that you're talking about

01:16:53.034 --> 01:16:54.250
actually purposelessness?

01:16:54.970 --> 01:16:55.590
Kim Barthel: Exactly.

01:16:55.590 --> 01:16:58.700
And I think that that becomes revealed.

01:16:59.940 --> 01:17:08.460
As the dialogue unfolds, that there is
a sense of emptiness, purposelessness,

01:17:08.460 --> 01:17:09.860
and a sense of disconnection.

01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:15.170
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, you go
into these workshops with story.

01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:16.910
Yeah, that's how it starts.

01:17:16.910 --> 01:17:18.530
That's your opening that toolbox.

01:17:18.850 --> 01:17:19.110
Kim Barthel: Yep.

01:17:19.160 --> 01:17:20.740
Rupert Isaacson: What
else is in that toolbox?

01:17:20.980 --> 01:17:22.200
And then what happens

01:17:22.590 --> 01:17:26.680
Kim Barthel: is one story, I
call it the sideways approach.

01:17:27.450 --> 01:17:30.920
I tell a story, and then the
resonance of the tuning fork starts.

01:17:32.575 --> 01:17:34.505
And people's light bulbs go on.

01:17:35.955 --> 01:17:36.335
And.

01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:40.040
We weave back and forth
between information.

01:17:41.610 --> 01:17:46.710
This is what's happening in the
nervous system when, and what the

01:17:46.740 --> 01:17:50.820
information does is decrease shame

01:17:52.860 --> 01:17:58.440
that when people have a general
understanding of their nervous

01:17:58.440 --> 01:18:01.900
system, they feel like, Oh my gosh.

01:18:02.530 --> 01:18:06.810
It's not that I'm fear, you know,
that I don't have enough courage.

01:18:07.220 --> 01:18:08.990
It's not that I'm flawed.

01:18:09.400 --> 01:18:11.870
It's not that I don't have enough skills.

01:18:12.160 --> 01:18:16.470
It's that my nervous system is doing
the best that it can with what it has.

01:18:18.360 --> 01:18:25.551
And that, that knowledge which creates
a sense of self compassion and, and

01:18:25.551 --> 01:18:29.431
allows people self understanding.

01:18:30.701 --> 01:18:32.321
And I got a great example of that.

01:18:32.711 --> 01:18:38.111
I was supporting a veteran, in
the Ukraine, doing work by Zoom.

01:18:39.041 --> 01:18:47.491
And he had just been in combat and was
describing his experience of combat

01:18:47.541 --> 01:18:50.691
and all of the bombs around him.

01:18:51.331 --> 01:18:53.211
And he said, that's not what I'm having.

01:18:54.156 --> 01:18:55.056
flashbacks about.

01:18:56.576 --> 01:19:02.576
What I'm stuck on, he said, is the fact
that I soiled myself during combat.

01:19:03.696 --> 01:19:04.066
Rupert Isaacson: And I

01:19:04.266 --> 01:19:06.776
Kim Barthel: feel so, you
know, he pooped his pants.

01:19:07.346 --> 01:19:12.466
He said, I feel like I'm
so, he used not capable.

01:19:14.466 --> 01:19:18.426
And then when he understood, this is
exactly what your nervous system does.

01:19:20.031 --> 01:19:23.351
When you are in these
states of self protection.

01:19:23.801 --> 01:19:26.291
Rupert Isaacson: Now that
surprises me because I know

01:19:26.531 --> 01:19:28.101
a few people with that story.

01:19:29.041 --> 01:19:34.231
And in combat units, there's often
just a sort of running dark humor that,

01:19:34.541 --> 01:19:35.991
yeah, the battlefield smells of shit.

01:19:37.676 --> 01:19:40.166
Because that's what's going on.

01:19:40.296 --> 01:19:45.376
was there no camaraderie
with his unit in that regard?

01:19:45.796 --> 01:19:51.586
Kim Barthel: I would say definite
camaraderie, but lack of knowledge.

01:19:51.936 --> 01:19:52.296
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:19:52.726 --> 01:19:58.656
Kim Barthel: I mean, this is early
on, the onset of the Ukraine conflict.

01:19:58.856 --> 01:19:59.186
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:19:59.246 --> 01:20:01.406
Kim Barthel: And many of
them are not even soldiers.

01:20:01.486 --> 01:20:01.906
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

01:20:02.006 --> 01:20:08.086
Kim Barthel: everyday citizens
solicited into combat without any prep,

01:20:10.126 --> 01:20:16.366
without any knowledge and, and
creating a so called platoon out

01:20:16.366 --> 01:20:20.586
of without training at that time.

01:20:21.616 --> 01:20:25.696
So I think that it speaks
to the development.

01:20:26.406 --> 01:20:30.386
of connection, perhaps
through those experiences

01:20:32.606 --> 01:20:36.396
and, and the, the chance
to be together as a team.

01:20:38.006 --> 01:20:38.336
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:20:38.336 --> 01:20:40.046
Speaks to your earlier point.

01:20:40.056 --> 01:20:40.616
Go ahead, sorry.

01:20:41.046 --> 01:20:46.366
Kim Barthel: It speaks to your earlier
point of shared danger and being

01:20:46.366 --> 01:20:48.086
able to work that through together.

01:20:49.836 --> 01:20:52.676
Rupert Isaacson: He must also
have felt a great sense of pride

01:20:54.266 --> 01:20:56.286
at having stepped up to defend

01:20:57.316 --> 01:20:57.616
Kim Barthel: his

01:20:57.616 --> 01:21:01.326
Rupert Isaacson: country
from a terrible aggressor.

01:21:01.876 --> 01:21:05.426
So would you say that

01:21:07.906 --> 01:21:15.826
his shame was still outweighed by his
sense of worth for having fulfilled that

01:21:15.826 --> 01:21:21.226
role, or did it actually impact his sense
of worth for having fulfilled that role?

01:21:21.676 --> 01:21:25.416
Kim Barthel: I love that question,
and as I pause to contemplate that

01:21:25.416 --> 01:21:35.846
question, the speed with which the
shame transformed, speaks to the lack of

01:21:36.456 --> 01:21:40.586
its grip on the overall sense of self.

01:21:42.711 --> 01:21:51.051
It was more, you know, there's shame
in the core self, which is so deep

01:21:52.031 --> 01:22:01.471
and this was more shame around action
at one time that shifted in its grip

01:22:02.701 --> 01:22:05.706
of his nervous system and day to day.

01:22:06.546 --> 01:22:10.456
Coping that didn't take long to transform.

01:22:11.036 --> 01:22:11.366
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,

01:22:12.016 --> 01:22:17.436
Kim Barthel: so your question makes
me think that it really, when we think

01:22:17.446 --> 01:22:24.546
about the complexity, this is what you're
asking is the complexity of trauma and

01:22:24.626 --> 01:22:31.796
all the variables in an individual psyche
that make it complex, complex trauma.

01:22:33.336 --> 01:22:36.796
This person, I would say, did not have.

01:22:37.306 --> 01:22:46.686
A history of developmental trauma
in his, in his persona that made the

01:22:47.046 --> 01:22:55.936
traumatic experience be tagged as more
event based rather than holistically

01:22:56.356 --> 01:22:58.246
having a grip on his entire being.

01:23:00.606 --> 01:23:02.396
It was such a good question you asked.

01:23:03.946 --> 01:23:07.256
Rupert Isaacson: It makes me, it
brings another question, which is,

01:23:08.636 --> 01:23:11.066
is that I think everyone, everyone
who's listening to this works with

01:23:11.096 --> 01:23:14.796
trauma to some degree and also
probably their own at the same time.

01:23:15.326 --> 01:23:16.436
It's so interesting.

01:23:16.446 --> 01:23:18.076
Is shame a paper tiger?

01:23:18.216 --> 01:23:20.056
Is shame a chimera?

01:23:20.076 --> 01:23:31.156
Is shame just our psyches and
the conditioned colonized psyche,

01:23:31.156 --> 01:23:35.286
which for social control, you know,
religion, whatever, make us feel

01:23:35.286 --> 01:23:38.486
ashamed of masturbating or whatever.

01:23:38.556 --> 01:23:41.176
And so therefore we'll go be
depressed and fight your wars for you.

01:23:41.246 --> 01:23:45.866
Basically that sort of thing, just be, you
know, repressed and unhappy and therefore

01:23:45.866 --> 01:23:47.416
very happy and willing to pick up a gun.

01:23:47.906 --> 01:23:49.936
Is shame actually just

01:23:53.236 --> 01:24:00.126
an illusion, almost like a hologram
to scare us, and is it even real?

01:24:00.156 --> 01:24:01.366
Is it even necessary?

01:24:02.386 --> 01:24:07.936
Kim Barthel: Well, I think, you know, the
urge in my response to your question is

01:24:07.956 --> 01:24:09.961
to think from my neurobiology perspective.

01:24:10.681 --> 01:24:11.471
Orientation.

01:24:11.881 --> 01:24:12.221
Go on.

01:24:12.721 --> 01:24:19.041
In that, we are, I believe,
wired for connection.

01:24:20.391 --> 01:24:30.161
And any time there's a sniff of rejection,
abandonment, separation, difference,

01:24:31.431 --> 01:24:41.021
the nervous system notices this and
contributes to the box that we identify

01:24:41.461 --> 01:24:46.601
as the shame parts of ourselves,
because shame doesn't live there alone.

01:24:46.681 --> 01:24:51.861
We are each made of many parts.

01:24:53.711 --> 01:24:58.201
You described in my vet, the pride,
which stands beside the shame.

01:24:59.576 --> 01:24:59.906
Right?

01:25:00.256 --> 01:25:07.296
So we are not one or another, but
our nervous system, for example, our

01:25:07.296 --> 01:25:15.326
amygdala, one third of it is designed to
notice the non verbal cues of rejection.

01:25:17.466 --> 01:25:22.956
And that gets tagged alongside
a sensory experience.

01:25:24.876 --> 01:25:30.856
So if I'm, for example, poop
my pants, and the guy beside

01:25:30.856 --> 01:25:33.926
me looks at me with disgust,

01:25:36.376 --> 01:25:43.096
Then I'm going to code those
simultaneous cues and they accumulate

01:25:43.246 --> 01:25:48.956
in my nervous system to contribute to
those parts of myself that experience,

01:25:50.186 --> 01:25:52.356
I'm not good enough, I'm flawed.

01:25:54.481 --> 01:25:56.291
And they can stack up,

01:25:58.461 --> 01:26:02.501
which is I think what people talk
about when they describe things like

01:26:02.521 --> 01:26:14.231
microaggressions or experiences of
racism and ableism, things that make

01:26:14.231 --> 01:26:22.231
us feel different than others, which
the nervous system can perceive as

01:26:22.231 --> 01:26:25.101
significant enough to feel traumatic.

01:26:28.201 --> 01:26:31.571
Rupert Isaacson: Right, because they
carry the risk of ostracism and our

01:26:31.571 --> 01:26:33.741
nervous system says, if you're ostracized.

01:26:34.006 --> 01:26:34.806
The hyenas get you.

01:26:35.316 --> 01:26:36.096
Kim Barthel: You're not safe.

01:26:36.096 --> 01:26:37.331
And

01:26:37.331 --> 01:26:38.566
Rupert Isaacson: I,

01:26:39.626 --> 01:26:42.676
Kim Barthel: and I think, so the
illusion that you're talking about,

01:26:42.926 --> 01:26:48.346
I think we will give up ourselves to
sustain connection at all costs, really.

01:26:49.566 --> 01:26:50.336
With our people.

01:26:50.676 --> 01:26:50.916
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:26:50.916 --> 01:26:52.026
That's gang culture, isn't it?

01:26:52.086 --> 01:26:52.366
Yeah.

01:26:52.406 --> 01:26:52.606
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

01:26:55.506 --> 01:26:56.016
Rupert Isaacson: Now.

01:26:56.676 --> 01:26:57.186
Okay.

01:26:57.606 --> 01:26:59.706
There's jumping ahead of myself.

01:26:59.706 --> 01:27:03.206
So I'm just, the question that formed in
my mind, I'm going to leave for a moment.

01:27:03.746 --> 01:27:05.916
So you open your toolbox.

01:27:05.926 --> 01:27:06.076
See.

01:27:06.581 --> 01:27:07.581
We've gone story.

01:27:08.231 --> 01:27:08.581
Kim Barthel: Sorry.

01:27:08.671 --> 01:27:09.121
Rupert Isaacson: Action.

01:27:09.621 --> 01:27:13.361
We've gone informing people about their
nervous system, which can transform shame.

01:27:13.401 --> 01:27:13.951
Useful.

01:27:15.541 --> 01:27:16.201
What's next?

01:27:16.591 --> 01:27:19.541
Kim Barthel: Well, in the moment,
it usually, what usually happens

01:27:19.751 --> 01:27:22.531
in front of our eyes is activation.

01:27:23.881 --> 01:27:26.131
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us, can you
define what does activation mean?

01:27:26.951 --> 01:27:35.041
Kim Barthel: People in the audience
typically have a response to

01:27:35.041 --> 01:27:39.646
the story or to the information
and That looks like many things.

01:27:40.136 --> 01:27:42.106
Sometimes it looks like anger.

01:27:43.606 --> 01:27:49.576
Sometimes it looks like, changes
in power in their face color.

01:27:50.276 --> 01:27:58.026
You can also see dissociation where
people, their eyes become empty.

01:27:59.701 --> 01:28:04.291
And this is why it's so good to do this
work as a team, because it's hard to

01:28:04.291 --> 01:28:06.621
see that in large numbers of people.

01:28:08.181 --> 01:28:11.891
You, you can also feel it, as
I know you know what I mean.

01:28:12.141 --> 01:28:13.161
You feel it in you.

01:28:14.091 --> 01:28:17.821
Ooh, the energy in the room just changed.

01:28:18.981 --> 01:28:20.391
There was more silence.

01:28:21.321 --> 01:28:28.631
There was big space in time that
seems to require more processing.

01:28:30.351 --> 01:28:38.531
So the actual process is in front of
your nose of what it is can be helpful.

01:28:40.241 --> 01:28:46.981
And so stepping into that, for example,
I have a person in the audience

01:28:46.981 --> 01:28:55.671
who puts up their hand and either
engages in active defense, or someone.

01:28:56.141 --> 01:28:59.071
you know, over to my right checks out.

01:29:00.301 --> 01:29:07.871
I may then move closer to them
in physical proximity in a very

01:29:08.311 --> 01:29:11.511
careful, cautious, kind way.

01:29:13.541 --> 01:29:15.501
And then I'm narrating what I'm doing.

01:29:16.741 --> 01:29:21.571
I see this is really
hard, this conversation.

01:29:23.061 --> 01:29:25.571
I put sometimes my hand on my own chest.

01:29:27.071 --> 01:29:30.641
And validation is critical.

01:29:32.101 --> 01:29:37.451
When someone gets angry at something
that you've said, which is just

01:29:37.451 --> 01:29:43.021
another indication of a stress
response, it's a moment of, oh,

01:29:45.151 --> 01:29:46.821
I hear you, I feel you, I see you.

01:29:49.291 --> 01:29:55.091
And this is what we needed, wanted
as children in the attachment,

01:29:56.131 --> 01:29:59.701
where the resilience came from or
could come from in the first place.

01:30:01.351 --> 01:30:06.251
So in a sense, what we are
doing is repeating the formula.

01:30:08.321 --> 01:30:13.061
Over and over and over again, of the
very same thing we wanted as infants.

01:30:16.171 --> 01:30:20.241
And, so even though you're
talking about the brain, it's

01:30:20.241 --> 01:30:21.871
like a portal into the soul.

01:30:23.991 --> 01:30:29.561
And the person in front of you,
who says, you know, that's just

01:30:29.561 --> 01:30:34.641
bullshit, for excuse me, my language,
but, and you say, ah, I feel ya,

01:30:36.671 --> 01:30:38.721
you know, that, that
just hit something there.

01:30:41.171 --> 01:30:42.811
And there's no interpretation.

01:30:43.781 --> 01:30:46.481
No, my desire to want to fix it.

01:30:47.911 --> 01:30:48.131
Right.

01:30:48.161 --> 01:30:52.281
You just sit there in the
presence of sadness, anger, fear,

01:30:54.391 --> 01:30:59.371
like a container for those feelings,
which is what often didn't happen for

01:30:59.371 --> 01:31:05.721
many of us when we were little people
told us, don't cry, don't be mad.

01:31:06.471 --> 01:31:07.851
Come on, big boys.

01:31:07.851 --> 01:31:08.391
Don't cry.

01:31:10.171 --> 01:31:11.631
Or it's more subtle than that.

01:31:12.291 --> 01:31:17.001
We get moved on quickly or someone
shores us up, Hey, but look at

01:31:17.001 --> 01:31:18.531
all the great things you can do.

01:31:21.151 --> 01:31:27.541
So that capacity to sit in
connection to one's own feelings

01:31:28.521 --> 01:31:29.901
is where the resilience comes from.

01:31:31.811 --> 01:31:34.361
And that emerges from having
somebody do it with you.

01:31:38.356 --> 01:31:40.966
Rupert Isaacson: At what point do you
explain to the people in the workshop that

01:31:40.966 --> 01:31:44.026
this is how they're building resilience?

01:31:44.146 --> 01:31:49.576
Because when the amygdala is activated,
as you know, anger, dissociation, fear,

01:31:50.976 --> 01:31:53.456
the intellect has gone on vacation.

01:31:54.226 --> 01:31:55.016
So,

01:31:57.281 --> 01:32:02.511
One cannot in that moment appeal to
an intellectual or logical process.

01:32:03.341 --> 01:32:07.001
So, can you talk us
through, through that then?

01:32:07.521 --> 01:32:08.711
Amigdala is activated.

01:32:09.841 --> 01:32:12.051
You want, yes, you're validating.

01:32:13.311 --> 01:32:16.041
And at the same time, you would
like to be able to show them.

01:32:16.971 --> 01:32:18.651
But look, you're building resilience here.

01:32:19.016 --> 01:32:22.756
by allowing yourself to have this emotion
and then move through this emotion to

01:32:22.806 --> 01:32:29.666
the next emotion, talk us through the
skill sets that you help people to

01:32:31.816 --> 01:32:32.316
garner.

01:32:33.316 --> 01:32:36.946
Kim Barthel: I think I wish the audience
could see that I'm smiling because

01:32:37.626 --> 01:32:42.656
the answer is it depends, you know,
it depends on a number of variables.

01:32:43.736 --> 01:32:45.846
The formula is always the same.

01:32:46.996 --> 01:32:47.496
Really?

01:32:48.006 --> 01:32:49.416
What changes?

01:32:49.976 --> 01:32:51.856
is the duration, the timing.

01:32:52.686 --> 01:32:53.656
This is attunement,

01:32:55.486 --> 01:32:55.766
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:32:55.776 --> 01:32:58.166
The, you get better, better
at it, it gets quicker, better

01:32:58.206 --> 01:32:58.736
Kim Barthel: at it.

01:32:59.586 --> 01:33:00.086
At attuning,

01:33:02.686 --> 01:33:10.926
when to move in, when to back out, when
to just nod, when to move my body away.

01:33:12.566 --> 01:33:17.116
Sometimes it's too
intrusive to be up close.

01:33:17.906 --> 01:33:23.096
When to actually change the subject
sometimes, when to front load with

01:33:23.106 --> 01:33:26.156
information, when to step into emotion.

01:33:26.156 --> 01:33:29.686
This is 40 years of practice.

01:33:30.636 --> 01:33:34.446
Of skill of doing lots of
messing up and continuing to

01:33:34.446 --> 01:33:37.226
mess up and continuing to repair.

01:33:38.756 --> 01:33:45.406
And at the same time, I often, often,
not always, but often am narrating

01:33:45.646 --> 01:33:47.136
what I'm doing while I'm doing it.

01:33:47.456 --> 01:33:47.816
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:33:49.006 --> 01:33:53.836
Kim Barthel: So that the
audience is like a witness and

01:33:53.836 --> 01:33:56.566
an experiencer at the same time.

01:33:59.266 --> 01:34:01.826
Rupert Isaacson: So that, does that
mean that when someone has had an

01:34:01.826 --> 01:34:09.366
amygdala reaction, Within the workshop
or session client session or whatever is

01:34:12.036 --> 01:34:17.326
the validation followed by
the is it the validation that

01:34:17.326 --> 01:34:20.506
allows the amygdala to relax?

01:34:21.706 --> 01:34:22.216
Kim Barthel: Yes.

01:34:22.306 --> 01:34:24.866
Rupert Isaacson: And opens the way
to the intellect because is it the

01:34:24.866 --> 01:34:26.536
validation that says to the amygdala?

01:34:26.876 --> 01:34:27.556
Don't worry.

01:34:27.576 --> 01:34:30.386
You're actually not about to be
rejected and left out for the hyenas.

01:34:32.366 --> 01:34:34.766
We remain connected despite the fact that.

01:34:35.166 --> 01:34:37.436
You're waving your arms around
and shouting or whatever that

01:34:37.436 --> 01:34:38.846
would normally drive people away.

01:34:39.416 --> 01:34:41.856
I'm validating you here,
so I'm staying with you.

01:34:42.786 --> 01:34:49.736
And then some seconds pass and the
amygdala deactivates the cortisol.

01:34:50.266 --> 01:34:51.636
Kim Barthel: Sometimes it's not seconds.

01:34:52.276 --> 01:34:53.356
Sometimes it's hours.

01:34:53.476 --> 01:34:53.796
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:34:54.316 --> 01:34:54.756
Okay.

01:34:54.816 --> 01:34:56.356
So you have that time in a workshop?

01:34:56.816 --> 01:34:57.606
You have that time in a

01:34:57.606 --> 01:34:58.266
Kim Barthel: client session?

01:34:58.276 --> 01:34:58.586
Yeah.

01:34:58.626 --> 01:34:59.426
Yes.

01:34:59.536 --> 01:35:02.226
And no, here's how, here's how I'm just

01:35:02.226 --> 01:35:04.356
Rupert Isaacson: thinking about,
you know, some say here I'm in

01:35:04.356 --> 01:35:06.876
the arena with my horse, with this
person and they've kicked off.

01:35:06.876 --> 01:35:09.736
I don't have, you know, a week and you're

01:35:09.766 --> 01:35:13.556
Kim Barthel: going to also
have another opportunity.

01:35:14.106 --> 01:35:14.496
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:35:15.126 --> 01:35:15.426
Kim Barthel: Okay.

01:35:15.706 --> 01:35:19.706
But, but the validation is needs
a little bit of clarity here.

01:35:19.876 --> 01:35:21.676
You're meeting people where they are.

01:35:23.466 --> 01:35:24.306
You're showing up.

01:35:24.356 --> 01:35:29.396
It's like I'm enraged
and you stand there and.

01:35:29.791 --> 01:35:32.681
Meet me without joining me.

01:35:34.171 --> 01:35:37.881
The validation is not
validation of the information.

01:35:38.871 --> 01:35:40.421
I'm not validating your story.

01:35:40.721 --> 01:35:44.491
I'm validating your, your, your,
the truth of your experience.

01:35:45.701 --> 01:35:51.811
What it is that you are feeling, and
that's the, the portal to safety.

01:35:52.651 --> 01:35:53.101
Right there.

01:35:53.741 --> 01:35:53.951
Right.

01:35:54.101 --> 01:35:57.581
And, but in that, I'm not
all nicey nicey all the time.

01:35:58.551 --> 01:36:02.531
A lot of times, you know, someone
is swearing at me, well, I work

01:36:02.531 --> 01:36:07.861
with youth, who, you know, swear
words are as common for them as and.

01:36:08.731 --> 01:36:10.081
And they're in your face.

01:36:11.831 --> 01:36:15.831
If I was all nicey nicey and nurturing
all the time, they would feel

01:36:15.911 --> 01:36:19.211
that that's not authentic, right?

01:36:19.311 --> 01:36:23.251
It's, it's meeting you in the
vibration, finding it in me.

01:36:23.831 --> 01:36:25.401
Rupert Isaacson: So when you're
not nicey nicey, then can you

01:36:25.401 --> 01:36:26.441
give us an example of that?

01:36:26.461 --> 01:36:32.891
Like, okay, I'm effing and blinding at you
now, and wanting to get a rise out of you.

01:36:34.691 --> 01:36:38.666
so it's don't nicey nicey, but at the same
time, You don't want to be too not nicey

01:36:38.666 --> 01:36:40.856
nicey, so, yeah, talk us through that.

01:36:41.596 --> 01:36:44.906
Kim Barthel: The not nicey nicey
doesn't come out necessarily in words.

01:36:46.526 --> 01:36:47.836
It comes out in your body.

01:36:48.986 --> 01:36:54.806
When you think about nurturance, for
example, the non verbals that we draw

01:36:54.806 --> 01:37:02.826
from in nurturance, typically, are how
you use your voice, melodic, how you

01:37:02.826 --> 01:37:09.336
might use your eyes, how you lean your
body in, what your gestural system does.

01:37:09.856 --> 01:37:17.216
It's A gestural, it's a non
verbal approach system, whereas

01:37:17.636 --> 01:37:22.436
when there is anger or threat.

01:37:23.461 --> 01:37:30.531
It requires boundary for the
other and me, that's containment.

01:37:31.381 --> 01:37:36.911
So that often demands from me standing
up tall, pulling all my energy

01:37:36.911 --> 01:37:43.881
up, using my voice in a different
tone and saying, this is not okay.

01:37:44.961 --> 01:37:45.751
I can.

01:37:46.161 --> 01:37:51.901
Be with you in your anger, but I do
not need to accept your rudeness.

01:37:53.631 --> 01:37:54.641
That would be an example.

01:37:55.751 --> 01:37:57.661
Rupert Isaacson: You don't see,
what's the reaction to that?

01:37:58.111 --> 01:37:58.731
Do they usually,

01:37:59.821 --> 01:38:00.541
Kim Barthel: it's usually, yeah.

01:38:01.001 --> 01:38:01.621
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:38:02.511 --> 01:38:04.781
Kim Barthel: Because I'm not going to go.

01:38:07.671 --> 01:38:11.321
And, you know, I wrote, I
wrote a book with a, a former

01:38:11.371 --> 01:38:12.881
national hockey league champion.

01:38:14.201 --> 01:38:21.341
Who survived by rage and you know
that I use my greatest teacher

01:38:22.541 --> 01:38:30.361
because I would say that my greatest
fear was rage and the feeling of

01:38:30.371 --> 01:38:37.101
violence and You it takes practice
to step in Boundary and not own it

01:38:39.321 --> 01:38:40.171
as an example.

01:38:40.721 --> 01:38:44.821
Other people are completely
activated by crying and tears.

01:38:45.421 --> 01:38:45.551
Yeah.

01:38:45.581 --> 01:38:47.431
Or they feel manipulated, right?

01:38:47.481 --> 01:38:49.531
Or out of control.

01:38:49.961 --> 01:38:52.551
We each have our own blind spots.

01:38:54.361 --> 01:38:57.971
And to meet the other person where
they at means I have to do the

01:38:57.971 --> 01:39:05.411
work of being able to have a place
for those emotions within myself.

01:39:07.121 --> 01:39:09.631
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things
which, I try to cultivate, I don't,

01:39:09.631 --> 01:39:15.411
you know, Always managed to, but I do
try is, I call it the happiness garden.

01:39:16.921 --> 01:39:17.601
where,

01:39:20.271 --> 01:39:25.191
when I'm in challenging situations
or feeling disappointed or

01:39:27.521 --> 01:39:30.811
it doesn't have to involve another
person, you know, but it can do.

01:39:30.981 --> 01:39:40.781
I, the last five years or so, I've
tried to make a practice of feeling

01:39:41.461 --> 01:39:48.651
like there's a, a happiness garden in
my chest and that I'm, when I'm feeling.

01:39:49.071 --> 01:39:50.366
Rocky, I'm, I'm st.

01:39:50.466 --> 01:39:51.681
I'm in that happiness garden.

01:39:51.681 --> 01:39:52.851
I'm still in that happiness garden.

01:39:53.561 --> 01:39:59.561
And I find this is helpful, and I
find that the way to nurture that

01:39:59.561 --> 01:40:05.831
garden and have access to that
garden more or quicker is gratitude.

01:40:07.351 --> 01:40:10.841
now trauma of course

01:40:13.421 --> 01:40:18.461
is the amygdala at, you know,
it's, it's the amygdala at work.

01:40:18.461 --> 01:40:20.111
It's the, it is the
memories of the amygdala.

01:40:20.111 --> 01:40:24.151
It's the amygdala, you know, it's
all, it's all amygdala all the time.

01:40:24.481 --> 01:40:24.961
So.

01:40:27.156 --> 01:40:36.366
When a therapist, practitioner of some
kind, is experiencing someone else's

01:40:36.366 --> 01:40:41.986
amygdala firing, their own amygdala,
of course, fires in response, the

01:40:41.986 --> 01:40:48.136
therapist or practitioner has their
own traumas and triggers, naturally.

01:40:48.986 --> 01:40:51.146
Then, let's say you've got a horse
involved and you're actually trying

01:40:51.146 --> 01:40:54.646
to keep that person alive because
horses are dangerous pieces of kit.

01:40:55.286 --> 01:41:02.936
and they need you, you talked about
standing up tall and finding this

01:41:02.976 --> 01:41:06.236
inner resilience and this inner
resource to be able to say, I meet

01:41:06.236 --> 01:41:09.166
you where you are and I see you and
I do empathize with you, but I don't

01:41:09.176 --> 01:41:10.656
have to be, you don't have to be rude.

01:41:12.626 --> 01:41:14.036
That's taken you a while.

01:41:14.276 --> 01:41:15.796
I would imagine to get to that point.

01:41:15.806 --> 01:41:17.536
I'm sure you weren't always that

01:41:18.446 --> 01:41:18.606
Kim Barthel: good

01:41:18.606 --> 01:41:19.116
Rupert Isaacson: at it, right?

01:41:20.626 --> 01:41:25.116
A lot of people are coming
into this field of work now in

01:41:25.126 --> 01:41:26.646
their twenties and thirties.

01:41:28.386 --> 01:41:33.546
When we first began with Horseboy, for
example, you know, it was all the people

01:41:33.546 --> 01:41:37.716
we were training were people who were
already being practitioners for a long

01:41:37.716 --> 01:41:42.116
period of time and they were just looking
to add to their toolkit, you know, they

01:41:42.116 --> 01:41:43.226
were already good at what they did.

01:41:43.956 --> 01:41:48.486
Now, this has become something of
an industry and this is a good thing

01:41:48.506 --> 01:41:49.876
because it means more people get served.

01:41:49.876 --> 01:41:53.836
But for example, some of the Horseboy
centers, now that are opening, we

01:41:53.836 --> 01:41:56.286
need to staff them and we need to
staff them with younger people.

01:41:57.061 --> 01:42:01.561
And, you know, you look at
these people and go, wow, yes,

01:42:01.581 --> 01:42:04.531
it's amazing and beautiful that
you're attracted to this work.

01:42:04.531 --> 01:42:07.721
And at the same time, you know,
your life experience and your own

01:42:07.721 --> 01:42:12.211
traumas are going to, you know, sit
very front and center in your mind,

01:42:12.211 --> 01:42:13.291
and you're going to get triggered.

01:42:13.841 --> 01:42:15.401
and you're not Kim Buffell, you know,

01:42:15.401 --> 01:42:17.951
Kim Barthel: with gray hair,

01:42:18.201 --> 01:42:20.721
Rupert Isaacson: what do you, what do
you, you're going to get some gray hairs

01:42:20.721 --> 01:42:25.101
in the course of this work, but, what's
your suggestion for people that are

01:42:25.101 --> 01:42:26.711
really coming into this line of work?

01:42:26.731 --> 01:42:28.401
Because I think a lot of times they get.

01:42:29.741 --> 01:42:32.791
caught on the back foot a
little bit, by how demanding

01:42:32.791 --> 01:42:34.621
it can be this way emotionally.

01:42:35.231 --> 01:42:36.071
Kim Barthel: I love that.

01:42:36.091 --> 01:42:42.121
I love all your questions and
your happiness garden, because

01:42:42.241 --> 01:42:44.991
what this work is really about.

01:42:45.021 --> 01:42:47.881
Remember, at the beginning when we
talked about gallivanting around

01:42:47.881 --> 01:42:51.971
the world and You know, we are
sharing information, but we're also

01:42:51.971 --> 01:42:55.501
gathering information and evolving.

01:42:56.401 --> 01:43:00.621
Every minute is a opportunity
to evolve one's self.

01:43:00.621 --> 01:43:01.661
Rupert Isaacson: And

01:43:01.661 --> 01:43:10.621
Kim Barthel: the truth of the work
is, calm and regulated is different.

01:43:11.946 --> 01:43:16.136
Regulation, and I think I said
this last time, regulation is

01:43:16.136 --> 01:43:17.816
about being connected to yourself.

01:43:19.266 --> 01:43:22.246
And so the, it's not about being perfect.

01:43:23.206 --> 01:43:24.666
It's about being authentic.

01:43:26.446 --> 01:43:30.186
So for example, I've got
a really great example.

01:43:30.686 --> 01:43:37.056
my daughter who I adore and love
lives here with us recently, and

01:43:37.056 --> 01:43:38.756
we have been away for six months.

01:43:39.916 --> 01:43:45.526
And came home last night and I came into
the studio this morning just to come in

01:43:45.526 --> 01:43:48.046
and be with you and it was a disaster

01:43:48.056 --> 01:43:49.596
Rupert Isaacson: of
the tequila bottles and

01:43:50.746 --> 01:43:51.036
Kim Barthel: right.

01:43:51.036 --> 01:43:55.666
It was well, not quite like that,
but not ready to be in a, in

01:43:55.666 --> 01:43:57.606
a, you know, in a useful state.

01:43:57.886 --> 01:44:03.736
Yeah, and there's enough security
in the relationship and enough.

01:44:04.426 --> 01:44:09.806
Security within me now to say
to her this is very frustrating.

01:44:10.726 --> 01:44:11.156
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:44:11.286 --> 01:44:13.216
Kim Barthel: without fear
of damaging the relationship

01:44:13.566 --> 01:44:13.896
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:44:14.576 --> 01:44:19.606
Kim Barthel: so I had to connect in
normally ten years ago I would have sucked

01:44:19.606 --> 01:44:26.166
it up cleaned it up been pissed off and
it would have leaked out somewhere else

01:44:26.316 --> 01:44:26.846
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm

01:44:28.036 --> 01:44:32.976
Kim Barthel: in the relationship Whereas
if I can pause and say to myself,

01:44:36.546 --> 01:44:42.756
I don't like this, this, this feels
like a boundary violation or I don't

01:44:42.756 --> 01:44:47.066
feel valued in this situation or
whatever words come, I'm actually

01:44:47.076 --> 01:44:48.996
taking care of myself in that moment.

01:44:50.286 --> 01:44:53.836
And what's fascinating about
that self acknowledgement.

01:44:54.651 --> 01:44:55.711
Is it actually changes it?

01:44:57.941 --> 01:45:03.241
I found it quite funny in that it took me
about two minutes and then it was like,

01:45:03.251 --> 01:45:06.521
Oh, this is such an irrelevant thing.

01:45:07.791 --> 01:45:11.481
Whereas historically I would have
been mad for three, four hours.

01:45:11.771 --> 01:45:12.101
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:45:13.381 --> 01:45:17.401
Kim Barthel: So that that's the
authentic connection where I can

01:45:17.411 --> 01:45:25.281
genuinely connect into whatever it is
that is activated, whether it's little

01:45:25.281 --> 01:45:28.531
or big and not talk myself out of it.

01:45:30.181 --> 01:45:38.141
Then it moves on its own, rather than
me having to have it leak out, as I say,

01:45:38.511 --> 01:45:41.401
in other things that I'm trying to do.

01:45:42.371 --> 01:45:43.771
And I've done that with clients.

01:45:43.771 --> 01:45:47.851
I've said things like, Oof, I'm
sharing this with you right now.

01:45:49.141 --> 01:45:50.371
I'm so activated.

01:45:51.811 --> 01:45:56.261
Right now, I can't be with you until
I'm with me a little bit longer.

01:45:58.781 --> 01:46:03.111
I'm very authentically, I don't
tell them the story of why

01:46:03.111 --> 01:46:05.241
I'm activated, but I'm very

01:46:05.721 --> 01:46:07.361
Rupert Isaacson: So that
doesn't trigger shame in them.

01:46:08.071 --> 01:46:08.841
For sure.

01:46:09.601 --> 01:46:11.271
Kim Barthel: And plus they're
going to read it anyway.

01:46:12.701 --> 01:46:17.126
They're going to read it
in my, especially a kindled

01:46:17.126 --> 01:46:18.541
Rupert Isaacson: amygdala

01:46:18.621 --> 01:46:22.711
Kim Barthel: is going to read
the potential nonverbal of

01:46:23.091 --> 01:46:25.231
disconnection in a millisecond.

01:46:26.291 --> 01:46:27.701
And they're going to
think it's about them.

01:46:30.621 --> 01:46:33.571
Rupert Isaacson: So what do you, what
do you say to, to safeguard that they

01:46:33.571 --> 01:46:36.181
don't dissolve into a puddle of shame?

01:46:36.351 --> 01:46:36.681
When

01:46:36.721 --> 01:46:38.331
Kim Barthel: I will say,
Ooh, this one's mine.

01:46:38.991 --> 01:46:39.371
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:46:40.401 --> 01:46:43.441
So you, you, you say right up
front, this is me, not you.

01:46:43.991 --> 01:46:44.291
Or I'm

01:46:44.291 --> 01:46:45.461
Kim Barthel: with you in this one.

01:46:46.301 --> 01:46:47.551
We're in this one together.

01:46:48.421 --> 01:46:50.531
I also use a lot of humor, Rupert.

01:46:50.941 --> 01:46:51.201
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:46:51.551 --> 01:46:52.381
Kim Barthel: A lot of humor.

01:46:52.381 --> 01:46:54.581
I've got a dry sense of humor.

01:46:54.581 --> 01:46:58.071
I make it very light.

01:46:58.991 --> 01:47:01.061
Rupert Isaacson: For those of you who
can't see Kim on the Zoom, she is in

01:47:01.061 --> 01:47:02.581
fact sitting here in a pink gorilla suit.

01:47:02.631 --> 01:47:03.101
It is true.

01:47:03.541 --> 01:47:04.491
That's not true!

01:47:04.491 --> 01:47:06.801
But,

01:47:10.061 --> 01:47:13.271
Kim Barthel: you know, it's
not all gloom and doom.

01:47:13.291 --> 01:47:13.881
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's true.

01:47:14.421 --> 01:47:18.281
No, I think this is a really
good point, lightheartedness.

01:47:18.701 --> 01:47:30.031
So I, one of the, one of the guidelines
in Ospoi method, movement method, tacky in

01:47:30.031 --> 01:47:34.901
any of our programs is humor, particularly
toilet humor, actually, because it's an

01:47:34.901 --> 01:47:38.711
act of rebellion, you know, for people who
are over therapized and kids who've been

01:47:38.711 --> 01:47:39.851
told there's something wrong with them.

01:47:39.851 --> 01:47:42.821
And, you know, and you can teach
all science through poo, you

01:47:42.821 --> 01:47:47.611
know, all the time, but because it
appeals to that sense of rebellion.

01:47:48.251 --> 01:47:51.751
It restores self respect, you know,
someone who's had their, been over

01:47:51.751 --> 01:47:55.171
therapized, told that there's something
wrong with them every day of their

01:47:55.171 --> 01:47:56.791
childhood, you know, it's not good.

01:47:57.301 --> 01:47:58.671
and their spirits are often broken.

01:47:59.511 --> 01:48:01.901
And to restore self
respect, you must rebel.

01:48:02.541 --> 01:48:03.131
You have to.

01:48:03.561 --> 01:48:07.311
and it can give a really good way to
rebut, plus it's actually funny, you know.

01:48:07.781 --> 01:48:11.341
And that's connection, and that's
oxytocin, and also it's funny, you know.

01:48:11.661 --> 01:48:13.751
it's, it's alright to do
something because it's funny just

01:48:13.751 --> 01:48:14.701
for the fact that it's funny.

01:48:15.311 --> 01:48:15.341
Burp.

01:48:16.486 --> 01:48:23.876
I do absolutely see that there can be
such an over emphasis on seriousness.

01:48:24.706 --> 01:48:27.146
Because we're trying to be sincere,
we're trying to be authentic.

01:48:27.526 --> 01:48:30.066
And we forget that part of
sincerity and authenticness is, of

01:48:30.066 --> 01:48:32.466
course, when one is light hearted.

01:48:33.076 --> 01:48:37.966
And then the diffusion of conflict,
through a well timed crack, is

01:48:37.966 --> 01:48:39.726
like a gift from God, it's so true.

01:48:40.896 --> 01:48:46.326
One of the things I think is, What I
find can be tricky is that the world of

01:48:46.326 --> 01:48:53.486
therapy can definitely attract controlling
or fear based personality types who

01:48:53.486 --> 01:48:57.466
want to be therapists perhaps because
it gives them a sense of self control of

01:48:57.466 --> 01:49:01.806
their own issues and so on and then that
can end up being projected and so then

01:49:01.826 --> 01:49:03.196
humour goes completely out of the window.

01:49:03.196 --> 01:49:06.456
It's not, this is not appropriate,
this is not the place for, you

01:49:06.456 --> 01:49:10.366
know, and that word appropriate
can then be wielded like a weapon.

01:49:12.076 --> 01:49:13.756
how do you encourage humour?

01:49:13.756 --> 01:49:13.776
Humour.

01:49:16.846 --> 01:49:20.906
Because you, you must be dealing with some
people taking themselves quite seriously.

01:49:22.116 --> 01:49:28.966
Kim Barthel: I, I, I can be quite
sassy, I think, and then quite tender.

01:49:30.566 --> 01:49:35.716
So, you know, when one of the things
is that it's a, it's a moving dial,

01:49:37.496 --> 01:49:40.176
and then there's a narration of intent.

01:49:41.306 --> 01:49:42.016
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, go on.

01:49:42.066 --> 01:49:42.756
What do you mean by that?

01:49:43.626 --> 01:49:48.596
Kim Barthel: I'll say, well, if I, if
I get a perception, That my humor has

01:49:48.596 --> 01:49:53.856
landed flatly or somewhat inappropriately

01:49:53.936 --> 01:49:57.146
Rupert Isaacson: by the way Wasn't
narration of intent the supporting

01:49:57.156 --> 01:50:00.066
band in the 1983 tour of the smiths?

01:50:00.756 --> 01:50:01.486
In canada,

01:50:02.526 --> 01:50:03.506
Kim Barthel: I have no idea

01:50:04.026 --> 01:50:05.056
Rupert Isaacson: Go on anyway, sorry

01:50:07.156 --> 01:50:07.866
Narration of intent.

01:50:07.866 --> 01:50:08.066
Okay.

01:50:08.066 --> 01:50:11.070
So when you find your
your your your and let's

01:50:11.070 --> 01:50:16.321
Kim Barthel: say I've said something and
it landed like, you know, like you just

01:50:16.321 --> 01:50:25.251
made me laugh Mm hmm But if I didn't, or
if I had done that to you and it didn't

01:50:25.251 --> 01:50:28.851
laugh, I went, I would have said something
like, well, that didn't go so well.

01:50:28.991 --> 01:50:30.191
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right, right.

01:50:30.431 --> 01:50:32.161
You take, you take, you
take the joke on you.

01:50:32.621 --> 01:50:32.941
Kim Barthel: Yeah.

01:50:33.191 --> 01:50:37.371
Or, you know, my, my, my humor
was not well timed there.

01:50:38.071 --> 01:50:38.381
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:50:39.066 --> 01:50:39.356
Right.

01:50:39.536 --> 01:50:41.016
Well that went down like a lead balloon.

01:50:41.056 --> 01:50:41.526
Yeah,

01:50:41.526 --> 01:50:42.046
Kim Barthel: exactly.

01:50:42.246 --> 01:50:43.966
I'm tracking myself

01:50:44.936 --> 01:50:45.166
Rupert Isaacson: as

01:50:45.166 --> 01:50:45.966
Kim Barthel: well as other.

01:50:46.936 --> 01:50:47.576
All the time.

01:50:48.656 --> 01:50:54.966
And so I'm noticing what's going
on in here, in me, while I'm also

01:50:54.966 --> 01:50:56.636
watching what's going on in you.

01:50:58.386 --> 01:51:01.496
And you know, you've got, you've also
got the information of the horse.

01:51:02.116 --> 01:51:02.436
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:51:02.446 --> 01:51:04.271
Well that, that, this, this all, yeah.

01:51:05.211 --> 01:51:05.291
Who's even

01:51:05.291 --> 01:51:07.241
Kim Barthel: better
than both of us, right?

01:51:07.851 --> 01:51:11.181
Rupert Isaacson: It's like, I've been
answering some of these questions myself

01:51:11.181 --> 01:51:13.721
in my head, actually, because each time
I asked him, I was like, yeah, but if

01:51:13.751 --> 01:51:17.291
the horse is there, they kind of co
regulate for you and bring you guys back

01:51:17.291 --> 01:51:20.571
to the present and diffuse a lot of the
conflict just by the fact that they're

01:51:20.571 --> 01:51:27.371
so awesome and, you know, but of course,
then let's say someone's coming to us

01:51:27.381 --> 01:51:29.751
for a session and they're with the horse
and the horse actually is picking up

01:51:29.801 --> 01:51:31.361
a lot of, most of the slack this way.

01:51:31.671 --> 01:51:32.251
Let's face it.

01:51:32.946 --> 01:51:36.556
They're doing most of the work, of
course, but then that person goes

01:51:36.576 --> 01:51:43.416
home and they have to have tools
When there is no horse around.

01:51:45.916 --> 01:51:52.466
Talk to our practitioners and therapists
who are listening now What are, for

01:51:52.466 --> 01:51:57.566
you, you think, the most important
tools that they can give their

01:51:57.696 --> 01:52:07.416
clients, families, to take home to
sort of keep that positive flow going?

01:52:08.241 --> 01:52:10.301
Kim Barthel: You know, you
talked about the happiness garden

01:52:12.411 --> 01:52:13.161
as your tool.

01:52:13.961 --> 01:52:15.881
That's a cultivation of cognition,

01:52:16.821 --> 01:52:18.661
Rupert Isaacson: cultivation
of cognition, cognition.

01:52:18.681 --> 01:52:20.651
They actually supported
narration of intent.

01:52:20.691 --> 01:52:23.271
I think at the same Smith's concert.

01:52:23.341 --> 01:52:23.681
And yeah,

01:52:24.161 --> 01:52:24.661
Kim Barthel: there we go.

01:52:24.901 --> 01:52:25.731
You got it.

01:52:25.771 --> 01:52:26.901
Our bands are together.

01:52:27.851 --> 01:52:30.121
So the cultivation of cognition means.

01:52:30.901 --> 01:52:32.621
It's a very high order skill.

01:52:33.851 --> 01:52:34.371
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

01:52:34.711 --> 01:52:37.631
Kim Barthel: You reflect to know when

01:52:39.661 --> 01:52:49.891
you shift out of the predictive brain back
into the desire to cultivate happiness, to

01:52:49.891 --> 01:52:53.461
tap into gratitude, that's cognitive and

01:52:53.521 --> 01:52:55.501
Rupert Isaacson: predictive
brain being like pessimism.

01:52:56.191 --> 01:52:59.841
Kim Barthel: Well, the predictive brain
brain is definitely has a negativity bias.

01:53:00.251 --> 01:53:00.471
Absolutely.

01:53:02.381 --> 01:53:04.241
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that won't
work because blah, blah, blah.

01:53:04.301 --> 01:53:04.991
Exactly.

01:53:05.021 --> 01:53:07.641
Kim Barthel: And it, it doesn't even
come to consciousness sometimes.

01:53:07.711 --> 01:53:07.741
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:53:09.131 --> 01:53:12.641
Kim Barthel: Just operating like Norton
antivirus, running in the background,

01:53:13.371 --> 01:53:19.091
producing, reproducing old habits.

01:53:19.351 --> 01:53:19.651
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:53:19.931 --> 01:53:21.851
Kim Barthel: Neurons that
fire together, wire together.

01:53:22.541 --> 01:53:24.281
And, and so consciousness Negative

01:53:24.281 --> 01:53:25.491
Rupert Isaacson: neuroplasticity, yeah.

01:53:25.491 --> 01:53:26.191
Correct.

01:53:27.381 --> 01:53:29.531
Kim Barthel: Consciousness
is the last level

01:53:31.541 --> 01:53:33.821
of, of true capacity to shift.

01:53:35.431 --> 01:53:38.741
And sometimes that happens in a
second and sometimes it takes years.

01:53:39.961 --> 01:53:41.801
And it's very difficult.

01:53:42.506 --> 01:53:45.916
So when, when you, when you ask me
the question, what do you give someone

01:53:45.916 --> 01:53:47.526
or what does someone take home?

01:53:49.046 --> 01:53:55.026
Your, your, your, your gift of
home is different for each client,

01:53:56.386 --> 01:54:01.086
dependent on their place of entry.

01:54:01.976 --> 01:54:06.896
The easiest place to create a shift
is in the body, which I know you know.

01:54:07.416 --> 01:54:08.896
Rupert Isaacson: Go on
though, talk about this.

01:54:09.296 --> 01:54:13.286
Kim Barthel: So even something as
simple as I'm doing a, what we call

01:54:13.286 --> 01:54:15.156
a butterfly tap, which is a rhythmic,

01:54:17.531 --> 01:54:20.061
Tapping of the outline
of my body with my hands.

01:54:21.526 --> 01:54:22.386
Even that?

01:54:22.686 --> 01:54:24.266
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just
going to describe for listeners

01:54:24.266 --> 01:54:24.796
because they can't see it.

01:54:24.796 --> 01:54:28.596
So what, what Kim did, and it's funny,
the moment you started doing it, I

01:54:28.596 --> 01:54:31.296
felt a little oxytocin of connection.

01:54:31.296 --> 01:54:33.716
So she, she crossed her arms.

01:54:33.726 --> 01:54:35.496
So their hands, let's
say you cross your arms.

01:54:35.496 --> 01:54:37.686
So one hand would be on each shoulder.

01:54:38.226 --> 01:54:41.476
And then she started to tap, Those
shoulders and then down her arms

01:54:41.476 --> 01:54:43.026
and down her forearms like that.

01:54:43.026 --> 01:54:44.936
And it did indeed look
like a bit of a butterfly.

01:54:46.076 --> 01:54:47.476
That's a cool one.

01:54:48.546 --> 01:54:53.256
Kim Barthel: And what it does is, at
a very primitive level in the nervous

01:54:53.256 --> 01:54:58.816
system, is increase the load of
information of the body to the brain,

01:54:59.716 --> 01:55:01.996
which really gives you an outline of you.

01:55:02.886 --> 01:55:03.696
Like, this is me.

01:55:04.546 --> 01:55:05.236
I'm here.

01:55:06.226 --> 01:55:12.906
And it, it decreases the disconnection
that comes with a flooded amygdala.

01:55:13.706 --> 01:55:17.576
And Yes, it gives oxytocin,
it also gives dopamine and

01:55:17.576 --> 01:55:20.786
serotonin, that kind of activity.

01:55:21.566 --> 01:55:27.076
But what its goal is, is to, in a
sense, I don't even know if I like

01:55:27.076 --> 01:55:30.926
this word, but ground you or bring
you back to the present moment.

01:55:32.146 --> 01:55:32.836
Like a breath.

01:55:34.486 --> 01:55:40.882
So to me, the quick shift game changer,
in a moment, can't involve much

01:55:40.882 --> 01:55:41.421
Rupert Isaacson: cognition.

01:55:43.021 --> 01:55:44.441
Yeah, because the
amygdala doesn't allow it.

01:55:46.281 --> 01:55:50.081
Kim Barthel: So, if I have a client, or
you have a child that you're working with,

01:55:50.541 --> 01:55:57.021
and you're giving support to a family,
even when the parent does butterfly tap

01:55:57.021 --> 01:56:03.221
as an example, then they are modeling
that for the child, but as the parent

01:56:03.231 --> 01:56:07.501
moves the energy of the child themself,
it changes the energy of them both.

01:56:09.131 --> 01:56:12.081
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting
when I, you know, when I was at the

01:56:12.081 --> 01:56:16.401
beginning of my autism journey with my
own son and was sort of being kicked

01:56:16.401 --> 01:56:18.151
around by the behavioral therapists.

01:56:18.631 --> 01:56:22.451
You know, one of the things which, of
course, they were all obsessed with

01:56:22.461 --> 01:56:27.351
was quiet hands and telling my son to
stop stimming as if he could understand

01:56:27.571 --> 01:56:28.801
what they were on about anyway.

01:56:29.211 --> 01:56:35.136
And it seemed to me, That he
was stimming to self regulate.

01:56:35.396 --> 01:56:35.706
Kim Barthel: Yes.

01:56:35.926 --> 01:56:40.716
Rupert Isaacson: And I, when I used to
watch him rocking and flapping and doing

01:56:40.716 --> 01:56:43.416
that stuff, I would, I would kind of
often think, yeah, I do that actually.

01:56:43.466 --> 01:56:45.576
When I'm, when I'm.

01:56:46.046 --> 01:56:49.866
Anxious I rock because that I'm later
on I realized oh, that's about the body

01:56:49.876 --> 01:56:53.406
trying to produce oxytocin to get you out
of the amygdala So that you can actually

01:56:53.406 --> 01:56:54.876
think your way out of a situation.

01:56:55.086 --> 01:56:58.346
That's why we rock I didn't know that
at the time obviously, but you know,

01:56:58.346 --> 01:57:06.766
I would observe my own stims and Okay,
they were dialed at maybe four 11.

01:57:08.036 --> 01:57:10.856
I remember thinking Why would you

01:57:10.856 --> 01:57:12.326
Kim Barthel: stop

01:57:12.906 --> 01:57:16.766
Rupert Isaacson: that because that's
the clue to a nonverbal person's

01:57:16.766 --> 01:57:20.536
emotional state because sometimes the
stims are happy stims and sometimes

01:57:20.536 --> 01:57:24.206
the stims were and it's often the same
movement, but it could be expressed.

01:57:25.796 --> 01:57:29.236
Like a flat can be yay and a flat
could be you know, but it's the

01:57:29.236 --> 01:57:30.746
same movement of the wrists, right?

01:57:31.326 --> 01:57:35.266
Kim Barthel: Well, you and I are on the
same tuning fork again, because I've been

01:57:35.276 --> 01:57:43.876
running around this planet for 25 years,
pleading people to see the body as a use

01:57:44.556 --> 01:57:52.016
of how we can come back into our, State
of ease and please stop making people

01:57:52.026 --> 01:58:00.356
stop whatever strategy or need that they
have to feel at ease in their own being.

01:58:01.341 --> 01:58:02.971
Could we please just honor that,

01:58:03.101 --> 01:58:05.961
Rupert Isaacson: you know, back to
your point about the veteran pooping

01:58:05.961 --> 01:58:07.161
his pants and it's interesting.

01:58:07.161 --> 01:58:08.691
I was thinking about a similar experience.

01:58:08.711 --> 01:58:09.481
I had myself.

01:58:09.711 --> 01:58:16.431
I was once mugged by five guys in a
crowd in Africa and I've as the fists

01:58:16.431 --> 01:58:18.771
were coming down on me and I was
thinking, are they going to kill me?

01:58:18.771 --> 01:58:19.521
What are they going to do?

01:58:19.851 --> 01:58:21.141
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:58:21.321 --> 01:58:24.771
I just felt myself pissing my
pants and I says, but it's still

01:58:24.771 --> 01:58:25.651
a voice in my head just went.

01:58:25.711 --> 01:58:25.731
Yeah.

01:58:26.731 --> 01:58:29.481
Well, of course I'm pissing my pants,
you know, it's just a terrifying

01:58:29.661 --> 01:58:32.391
situation you know, how, how normal.

01:58:32.731 --> 01:58:35.781
It was interesting, there wasn't a sense
of shame with it, but there might have

01:58:35.781 --> 01:58:37.181
been in another context, who knows.

01:58:38.551 --> 01:58:44.501
The, this idea of physicality in the
body and giving people the nervous system

01:58:44.501 --> 01:58:47.901
and the body to work with so that they
can get out of the intellect which they

01:58:47.901 --> 01:58:52.441
can get out of shame and then ironically
reactivate the intellect but in a in a

01:58:52.441 --> 01:59:00.381
more positive way the body to the mind the
thing where we're all brutalized i think

01:59:00.381 --> 01:59:05.801
and some early traumas what do you think
about this is some really standard things

01:59:05.901 --> 01:59:11.861
like when you're first at school you're
not allowed to go to the toilet you've

01:59:11.861 --> 01:59:20.011
got to sit there and override your bodily
need And be sort of shamed if you need it.

01:59:20.051 --> 01:59:22.761
Then again, you can then
use the trip to the toilet.

01:59:22.761 --> 01:59:23.631
Can I go to the toilet, please?

01:59:23.631 --> 01:59:23.891
Mr.

01:59:23.891 --> 01:59:25.091
Get out of that room.

01:59:25.101 --> 01:59:26.001
A lot of kids do.

01:59:26.551 --> 01:59:27.191
To flee.

01:59:27.691 --> 01:59:32.961
But you're basically being told
to override your nervous system.

01:59:32.961 --> 01:59:36.586
And Some people might say, well,
that's good because that, you know,

01:59:36.726 --> 01:59:41.436
means that in those situations
where you have to, in life, you can.

01:59:41.966 --> 01:59:44.196
But I suspect one would learn that anyway.

01:59:46.726 --> 01:59:55.756
These early cumulative
unsafetinesses, you're going to be

01:59:55.796 --> 01:59:59.556
unsafe if you react to your body.

02:00:02.186 --> 02:00:07.546
then becomes, right, a habit of
not reacting to the body and Then

02:00:07.596 --> 02:00:10.636
constantly living in the amygdala
which makes us suggestible and easily

02:00:10.636 --> 02:00:11.916
manipulated and easily controlled.

02:00:11.916 --> 02:00:16.846
Okay before we began this Recorded part
of the conversation you told me that

02:00:16.846 --> 02:00:21.606
you had been working with a school in
northern Canada So it is trying to do the

02:00:21.656 --> 02:00:27.471
opposite of this in an indigenous setting,
and we know the indigenous settings

02:00:27.691 --> 02:00:30.011
in North America are far from perfect.

02:00:30.611 --> 02:00:34.771
And they are trying to
actively decolonize education.

02:00:34.771 --> 02:00:37.431
So how are they working
with the nervous system?

02:00:37.431 --> 02:00:38.701
Talk to us about that project.

02:00:40.951 --> 02:00:42.631
Kim Barthel: How are they
working with the nervous system?

02:00:42.701 --> 02:00:50.311
They are trying to begin to
move from the perception of

02:00:50.311 --> 02:00:52.291
seeing themselves as victims.

02:00:54.841 --> 02:01:01.776
So the concept that you just spoke of,
Abandonment of self is what I call it.

02:01:04.116 --> 02:01:09.046
So any, and this can begin at infant,
I mean, first hours after birth.

02:01:10.326 --> 02:01:15.926
If I have a caregiver who is doing the
best they can with what they have, who

02:01:15.976 --> 02:01:23.686
cannot read my cues or is preoccupied
with their own suffering, then I,

02:01:23.896 --> 02:01:28.756
as an infant at the very primitive
circuitry of my brain, will abandon my

02:01:28.756 --> 02:01:32.426
own body to sustain the relationship.

02:01:32.426 --> 02:01:32.546
Okay.

02:01:34.146 --> 02:01:35.906
So I'll dismiss my own hunger.

02:01:36.306 --> 02:01:38.076
I'll dismiss my own fatigue.

02:01:38.476 --> 02:01:42.076
I'll dismiss my own pain to sustain.

02:01:42.456 --> 02:01:46.526
Unconsciously, I mean this is not
the baby thinking, I'm gonna do this.

02:01:47.136 --> 02:01:50.826
This is happening to ensure
that we stay connected.

02:01:51.126 --> 02:01:52.146
This is attachment.

02:01:54.096 --> 02:02:02.636
And, and so you know, colonization
disrupted a lot of what wisdom lived

02:02:02.636 --> 02:02:03.996
in many of our indigenous people.

02:02:05.371 --> 02:02:08.911
Communities around the process
of attunement and attachment.

02:02:09.881 --> 02:02:14.641
And so, many of the principles
that I know that you subscribe to.

02:02:15.161 --> 02:02:19.831
The use of the land, the use
of nature, the connect, and

02:02:19.841 --> 02:02:21.471
the use is not the right word.

02:02:23.911 --> 02:02:30.251
Tapping back into what we know is
becoming part of their, they, they have

02:02:30.261 --> 02:02:32.531
a process called land and language.

02:02:34.191 --> 02:02:36.861
Into the class, like the
classroom is on the land.

02:02:37.361 --> 02:02:45.421
And in the language, reconnecting to
the meaning of what we knew and staying

02:02:45.421 --> 02:02:52.181
connected to the presence of attuned
learning as opposed to fed learning

02:02:53.461 --> 02:02:57.941
in a traditional, that's what they
would call colonized way, sitting in

02:02:57.941 --> 02:03:00.521
a desk, having someone talk at you.

02:03:01.761 --> 02:03:06.311
learning through imparting of
information and remembering that

02:03:06.311 --> 02:03:11.391
there are other ways of expanding
knowing, ways of knowing and being.

02:03:16.331 --> 02:03:18.311
Rupert Isaacson: How
far in is this project?

02:03:18.461 --> 02:03:19.351
Kim Barthel: Brand new.

02:03:21.131 --> 02:03:22.851
Rupert Isaacson: Is it all grades?

02:03:23.561 --> 02:03:25.531
Kim Barthel: No, it's very difficult.

02:03:26.721 --> 02:03:28.271
Rupert Isaacson: Meaning,
no, is it all grades?

02:03:28.271 --> 02:03:30.931
Is it, is it like K through 12 or is it?

02:03:31.011 --> 02:03:33.271
Kim Barthel: Oh, I thought
you said, is it all great?

02:03:33.441 --> 02:03:33.671
Rupert Isaacson: No.

02:03:35.181 --> 02:03:35.841
Kim Barthel: I heard great.

02:03:36.191 --> 02:03:37.071
Is it all grades?

02:03:37.071 --> 02:03:38.181
Yes, all grades.

02:03:38.501 --> 02:03:38.841
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:03:39.141 --> 02:03:42.121
Kim Barthel: From preschool till grade 12.

02:03:45.181 --> 02:03:45.821
Rupert Isaacson: Any

02:03:48.151 --> 02:03:52.011
way that the listeners can find
out more about this project?

02:03:52.551 --> 02:03:57.181
Kim Barthel: Well, there is if you look up
First Nations School Board in the Yukon.

02:03:57.181 --> 02:03:59.051
Rupert Isaacson: First Nations
School Board in the Yukon?

02:03:59.071 --> 02:03:59.211
First Nations School

02:03:59.211 --> 02:04:01.181
Kim Barthel: Board in the Yukon of Canada.

02:04:01.681 --> 02:04:02.241
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:04:02.551 --> 02:04:03.331
Kim Barthel: You would?

02:04:03.666 --> 02:04:08.526
See their mission page,
their, their endeavors, the

02:04:08.526 --> 02:04:09.776
things that they, I can feel

02:04:09.776 --> 02:04:10.586
Rupert Isaacson: a podcast coming up.

02:04:10.636 --> 02:04:10.836
Yeah.

02:04:11.346 --> 02:04:12.526
Kim Barthel: I feel so proud of them.

02:04:12.656 --> 02:04:13.316
Yeah.

02:04:13.766 --> 02:04:14.606
Rupert Isaacson: First nations

02:04:14.906 --> 02:04:17.696
Kim Barthel: school board, F and S B

02:04:18.896 --> 02:04:19.656
Rupert Isaacson: school

02:04:21.686 --> 02:04:21.806
board.

02:04:21.816 --> 02:04:26.066
Kim Barthel: And I can send you the
link to their website at the dialogue.

02:04:26.106 --> 02:04:26.446
Yeah.

02:04:26.916 --> 02:04:28.116
Rupert Isaacson: Do you,
do you happen to have

02:04:30.416 --> 02:04:34.546
URL even on your phone is your phone
handy that just so that listeners

02:04:34.546 --> 02:04:39.766
could pull over and Write it down
because I think for for all of us

02:04:39.986 --> 02:04:42.566
who are working We don't just work
in therapy work in education, right?

02:04:42.566 --> 02:04:43.326
We're teaching stuff

02:04:43.436 --> 02:04:44.026
Kim Barthel: correct

02:04:44.066 --> 02:04:46.356
Rupert Isaacson: while we're doing
these things and You know, we're

02:04:46.356 --> 02:04:49.456
actually, we're actually delivering
curriculum quite a lot of the time.

02:04:49.926 --> 02:04:54.636
And I would love to find out
more about land and language, and

02:04:55.636 --> 02:04:56.566
Kim Barthel: yes, I do.

02:04:56.806 --> 02:04:57.046
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:04:57.046 --> 02:04:57.286
So

02:04:57.286 --> 02:04:58.876
Kim Barthel: www dot

02:04:59.206 --> 02:05:00.436
Rupert Isaacson: www dot

02:05:01.021 --> 02:05:02.021
Kim Barthel: f nsb.

02:05:02.161 --> 02:05:03.701
Do CF

02:05:04.241 --> 02:05:04.461
Rupert Isaacson: nsb.

02:05:06.161 --> 02:05:08.771
F N S B dot C A.

02:05:09.201 --> 02:05:09.531
Fantastic.

02:05:10.121 --> 02:05:11.041
I'm going to contact them.

02:05:11.691 --> 02:05:11.891
Brilliant.

02:05:11.921 --> 02:05:12.221
Awesome.

02:05:12.731 --> 02:05:12.991
Kim Barthel: Good.

02:05:12.991 --> 02:05:14.211
Whoo!

02:05:14.871 --> 02:05:15.451
Rupert Isaacson: Mmm.

02:05:15.751 --> 02:05:19.591
Kim Barthel: We stuck our toe
in lots of different places.

02:05:19.851 --> 02:05:23.461
Rupert Isaacson: Well, so many, in fact,
that we're going to have to return.

02:05:24.061 --> 02:05:27.691
I haven't even asked you what's
about the work you've been doing with

02:05:27.721 --> 02:05:31.891
Porges and Levine, who of course are,
you know, like you, among the sit

02:05:31.891 --> 02:05:36.591
sitteth in the firmament of polyvagal
neuroscientific stuff up there on

02:05:36.591 --> 02:05:38.291
Olympus where you guys have been.

02:05:38.611 --> 02:05:42.281
And I'd like to delve into that more.

02:05:42.371 --> 02:05:48.111
I'd like to talk much more about how
you view attunement and what that

02:05:48.161 --> 02:05:52.401
actually is because it's, it's so multi
faceted, but people use that word a lot.

02:05:52.931 --> 02:05:57.301
I'd like to delve more into the
nervous system stuff, but we're,

02:05:58.401 --> 02:06:02.131
we're, with the previous part of
the podcast, we're probably at

02:06:02.131 --> 02:06:04.941
about the two and a half hour thing.

02:06:05.111 --> 02:06:11.671
So I want people to know that I'm
going to cheekily ask Kim to come back.

02:06:12.171 --> 02:06:14.561
And I'm just going to prepare
a list of more questions.

02:06:15.001 --> 02:06:16.811
Kim, would you be prepared to do that?

02:06:16.921 --> 02:06:18.591
Because I just feel
there's a ton more here.

02:06:18.621 --> 02:06:18.911
I have

02:06:18.911 --> 02:06:21.021
Kim Barthel: another, I have
another wish on my wish list.

02:06:21.031 --> 02:06:22.221
I'm just going to put it out there.

02:06:22.721 --> 02:06:27.181
We we'll be back in Europe
in the spring of 2025.

02:06:27.571 --> 02:06:30.941
What would be really awesome
is an opportunity to actually

02:06:30.941 --> 02:06:32.121
do some work together.

02:06:33.031 --> 02:06:33.661
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, please.

02:06:33.671 --> 02:06:34.371
Let's do that.

02:06:34.931 --> 02:06:35.801
Do you know when you're coming?

02:06:36.291 --> 02:06:37.341
Kim Barthel: Yes, May.

02:06:38.101 --> 02:06:38.771
Rupert Isaacson: May.

02:06:38.821 --> 02:06:39.251
All right.

02:06:39.301 --> 02:06:39.311
I

02:06:39.311 --> 02:06:42.501
Kim Barthel: can't tell you the
exact date at this moment, but we'll

02:06:42.501 --> 02:06:46.761
be in Ireland, Bulgaria, Italy.

02:06:47.061 --> 02:06:48.561
Germany's not that far away.

02:06:48.601 --> 02:06:50.721
Rupert Isaacson: Well, also I
work in all those countries too.

02:06:51.661 --> 02:06:52.971
We have many projects in Ireland.

02:06:52.971 --> 02:06:56.471
Bulgaria, I've never been
to, so that's a great excuse.

02:06:56.471 --> 02:06:59.971
, but Italy too, we, we actually
run retreats in Italy.

02:06:59.971 --> 02:07:01.721
, we run retreats in Ireland.

02:07:01.721 --> 02:07:02.421
All right.

02:07:04.501 --> 02:07:07.001
Tell what would that look like?

02:07:07.001 --> 02:07:08.561
Would that be like a two day thing?

02:07:08.621 --> 02:07:09.691
A five day thing?

02:07:09.721 --> 02:07:10.751
A one day thing?

02:07:11.061 --> 02:07:12.461
What, what, what do you think?

02:07:12.791 --> 02:07:15.291
What does a Kim Barthel
thing normally look like?

02:07:15.361 --> 02:07:18.361
Kim Barthel: Well, what I was thinking
is how could I be of service to you?

02:07:18.921 --> 02:07:19.391
Not.

02:07:19.916 --> 02:07:20.586
anything else.

02:07:20.586 --> 02:07:25.576
Like my, my thought was, I need
to learn about what you do.

02:07:26.896 --> 02:07:32.596
, and how could I benefit from the,
just like everything else, what

02:07:32.616 --> 02:07:37.776
more is there to collaborate in and
learn from in your presence as well.

02:07:38.316 --> 02:07:41.916
So it's not so much, what am
I bringing, but what can we

02:07:42.756 --> 02:07:44.696
create together was my thought.

02:07:45.386 --> 02:07:47.376
Rupert Isaacson: Well, absolutely.

02:07:47.996 --> 02:07:48.776
I'm just trying to think.

02:07:48.841 --> 02:07:51.731
What instinctively do you feel?

02:07:51.731 --> 02:07:53.611
Do you feel it's a two day thing?

02:07:53.611 --> 02:07:54.251
A three day thing?

02:07:54.251 --> 02:07:58.661
I mean, in terms of what
people can probably, we

02:07:59.011 --> 02:08:00.761
Kim Barthel: could probably
have fun in two days.

02:08:00.871 --> 02:08:01.251
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:08:02.251 --> 02:08:02.711
All right.

02:08:02.711 --> 02:08:04.281
Let's, you heard it.

02:08:05.031 --> 02:08:08.601
Kim and I going to do
it two days in the pub.

02:08:09.051 --> 02:08:09.381
And

02:08:11.541 --> 02:08:12.341
you can join me.

02:08:12.751 --> 02:08:17.441
Kim Barthel: Because unlike you, I don't
have the extensive experience, extensive

02:08:17.441 --> 02:08:19.951
experience of hanging out with the horse.

02:08:21.741 --> 02:08:27.521
And so that variable to
me would be something that

02:08:27.761 --> 02:08:29.241
would really deepen the work.

02:08:29.821 --> 02:08:31.011
Rupert Isaacson: Well ponies are us.

02:08:31.451 --> 02:08:34.311
And what you'll find is
you'll bust me immediately.

02:08:34.311 --> 02:08:35.611
It'd be like, Oh, I see.

02:08:36.071 --> 02:08:38.591
Rupert's just full of it because
the horse just does all the work.

02:08:39.051 --> 02:08:39.921
Rupert, yes.

02:08:41.221 --> 02:08:42.051
Hangs out next to him.

02:08:42.241 --> 02:08:43.561
Which is basically true.

02:08:44.051 --> 02:08:48.501
But going into the neurosensory
stuff of why that is, how that

02:08:48.501 --> 02:08:49.791
is, is interesting for sure.

02:08:50.341 --> 02:08:55.151
And okay, well, I'm going to put that out
there to our people that you and I will,

02:08:55.181 --> 02:08:57.511
we'll, we'll do a collaboratory thing.

02:08:58.041 --> 02:08:59.751
But I, I want to, I
want to learn from you.

02:08:59.751 --> 02:09:02.951
So, and I know many of
our listeners do too.

02:09:04.541 --> 02:09:04.791
Okay.

02:09:04.791 --> 02:09:05.651
So we'll announce that.

02:09:05.671 --> 02:09:06.731
Kim and I will, we'll get.

02:09:09.901 --> 02:09:13.741
Kim Barthel: I'll send you when the
calendar unfolds, which should be by

02:09:13.741 --> 02:09:15.291
the end of the Christmas holidays.

02:09:15.491 --> 02:09:15.881
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,

02:09:16.201 --> 02:09:19.401
Kim Barthel: then we will have
a clearer idea of our schedule.

02:09:19.731 --> 02:09:21.761
Rupert Isaacson: And then just in
case you're listening to this, in

02:09:21.761 --> 02:09:26.151
fact, in 2027 or something, because
these things tend to hang around.

02:09:26.661 --> 02:09:29.951
Hopefully, when you get to
this part of the thing, then

02:09:30.791 --> 02:09:31.476
there'll be more information.

02:09:31.916 --> 02:09:33.666
In 2027, more of these things.

02:09:33.676 --> 02:09:35.356
So, look us up.

02:09:35.446 --> 02:09:35.956
All right.

02:09:36.036 --> 02:09:39.596
So Kim, people will want to know how
to find your work and contact you.

02:09:40.306 --> 02:09:41.386
How can they contact you?

02:09:41.406 --> 02:09:42.886
Can people contact you personally?

02:09:43.086 --> 02:09:45.066
Can they engage with you as a mentor?

02:09:45.926 --> 02:09:48.376
Can you just talk us through
all the options, please?

02:09:49.196 --> 02:09:52.026
Kim Barthel: So our website,
well, the name of our company

02:09:52.026 --> 02:09:53.096
is Relationship Matters.

02:09:53.576 --> 02:09:54.796
Rupert Isaacson: Relationship Matters.

02:09:54.796 --> 02:09:56.076
Kim Barthel: Relationship Matters.

02:09:56.891 --> 02:09:58.961
And the website is www.

02:09:59.001 --> 02:10:00.441
kimbarthel.

02:10:00.451 --> 02:10:00.861
ca.

02:10:02.021 --> 02:10:05.601
We live on all the social media
platforms under Kim Barthel.

02:10:06.951 --> 02:10:09.001
I am tricky to connect with personally.

02:10:10.661 --> 02:10:14.611
It's, it's really a nonstop,
well, nonstop schedule.

02:10:14.861 --> 02:10:17.211
We do do mentorships.

02:10:17.761 --> 02:10:21.671
And they are not the most
common thing that happens.

02:10:22.066 --> 02:10:26.836
Right in our work and really it's
about coming and joining us when we

02:10:26.836 --> 02:10:29.656
are on the road in a workshop venue.

02:10:29.846 --> 02:10:30.266
And

02:10:30.276 --> 02:10:30.676
Rupert Isaacson: brilliant.

02:10:31.456 --> 02:10:31.856
Kim Barthel: Thank you.

02:10:32.396 --> 02:10:32.966
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:10:33.666 --> 02:10:36.236
So will you, will you come back on?

02:10:36.986 --> 02:10:37.396
Kim Barthel: Yes.

02:10:37.876 --> 02:10:40.621
Rupert Isaacson: And we can
keep this conversation going.

02:10:40.621 --> 02:10:41.796
Yes.

02:10:41.796 --> 02:10:42.206
It's fun.

02:10:42.716 --> 02:10:44.636
Kim Barthel: As I said, the
tuning fork is resonant.

02:10:44.636 --> 02:10:46.396
So let's, let's do it.

02:10:47.336 --> 02:10:49.826
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm going to
throw this one open to listeners.

02:10:50.206 --> 02:10:57.376
Lads, if you've got questions Send
them into me admin at N T L S N T

02:10:57.376 --> 02:11:03.266
L S dot C O and we will make sure
that we hold Kim's feet to the fire

02:11:03.656 --> 02:11:05.006
to get answers for those things.

02:11:05.446 --> 02:11:09.176
Because I know so many people
do have questions for you.

02:11:09.346 --> 02:11:16.906
And our mutual friend, Leanna tank, who
is an amazing occupational therapist.

02:11:16.906 --> 02:11:18.596
He works with the most.

02:11:19.311 --> 02:11:27.841
dangerous criminals in lockdown in psych
units in, in the Midwest is also I feel

02:11:27.861 --> 02:11:30.301
a mentor and she brought us together.

02:11:30.301 --> 02:11:30.621
So

02:11:30.621 --> 02:11:31.751
Kim Barthel: what

02:11:31.931 --> 02:11:34.741
Rupert Isaacson: I might do if it's
all right is bring her in actually

02:11:34.741 --> 02:11:40.791
on the next podcast and then we could
include, make it a three way thing.

02:11:40.791 --> 02:11:41.431
Amazing.

02:11:41.561 --> 02:11:41.981
Amazing.

02:11:41.981 --> 02:11:42.471
That'd be good.

02:11:42.901 --> 02:11:43.461
Okay, brilliant.

02:11:43.661 --> 02:11:44.241
I'm going to wax her.

02:11:44.821 --> 02:11:45.381
All right.

02:11:45.921 --> 02:11:46.521
Kim Barthel: All right,

02:11:46.901 --> 02:11:47.241
Rupert Isaacson: Kim.

02:11:47.421 --> 02:11:47.971
Amazing.

02:11:48.111 --> 02:11:48.801
Thank you.

02:11:49.181 --> 02:11:50.101
Kim Barthel: Happy holidays

02:11:50.281 --> 02:11:50.911
Rupert Isaacson: to you too.

02:11:51.281 --> 02:11:51.801
Speak soon.

02:11:52.081 --> 02:11:52.301
Okay.

02:11:52.311 --> 02:11:52.811
You bet.

02:11:53.221 --> 02:11:53.521
Take care.

02:11:53.831 --> 02:11:54.251
Kim Barthel: Thanks.

02:11:54.420 --> 02:11:55.530
Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

02:11:55.560 --> 02:11:57.390
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:11:57.628 --> 02:12:02.668
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:12:02.668 --> 02:12:07.858
courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

02:12:08.566 --> 02:12:13.214
These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

02:12:13.214 --> 02:12:15.224
dealing with trauma around the world.

02:12:15.551 --> 02:12:19.301
We also offer a horse training
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02:12:19.301 --> 02:12:22.541
for riders on long ride home.com.

02:12:22.840 --> 02:12:26.890
These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

02:12:26.890 --> 02:12:28.810
bring you and your horse joy.

02:12:29.346 --> 02:12:33.906
For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

02:12:34.236 --> 02:12:35.166
See you on the next show.

02:12:35.579 --> 02:12:38.269
And please remember to
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