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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Here on Equine Assisted World.

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We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

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established in the equine assisted field.

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This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

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physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

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These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

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Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

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Welcome back, everybody, to Equine
Assisted World, where we talk to

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people who are helping our species,
humanity, with the assistance

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of these incredible beings that
we call Equus Equus, the horse.

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And the reason, as you know, that we
call it Equine Assisted World rather than

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Therapeutic and so forth is because it's
such, it's, it's grown so exponentially

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to such a wide field in the last 10
years or so, that To limit it to just

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one form of a therapeutic approach of
course would not do justice to the to

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the, to the universe and mosaic of really
interesting work that is out there.

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And so with that in mind we, as you
know, look internationally for the first

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time on the show, we're going to be
talking to somebody in the Netherlands.

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And the Netherlands is an interesting
place because it's both a very

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forward thinking and Some would
say liberal, others would say

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enlightened country both in education,
therapeutic approaches and so forth.

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And also it's rather rule based.

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So, navigating that rather
interesting mix of how to...

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Supply and deliver services
is not without its challenges.

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And yet at the same time, one is dealing
with a country where the acceptance

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of alternative therapeutic approaches
and so on is well established.

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And someone who's been at the center
of that for the last decade or so

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is my guest today, Carola Beekman.

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Carola Beekman from the Netherlands
who has bootstrapped a really cutting

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edge approach to equine assisted work
there over the last decade or so.

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And her organization, Maheo, , which
is near Arnhem in the eastern part of

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the Netherlands is doing work both in
and outside of the mainstream and in

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and outside of horse training, not just
working with special needs that brings

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really some unusual and very, very
valuable contributions to the work.

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So, Carola welcome to.

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Equine Assisted World.

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Thank you for coming on.

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Can you explain to us the word Maheo?

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What does it

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Carola Beekmann: mean?

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MAheo is an Hawaiian or Polynesian
word and it means proud, right?

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I saw it in a In a movie about a
troubled girl who went to a farm with

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horses and that place was called Maheo.

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And I always told myself, if I ever get
my own place, it will be called Maheo.

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Rupert Isaacson: So proud,
proud to be yourself, proud and

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Carola Beekmann: yeah.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So to become proud of who you are.

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So we help you to become you
and be really proud of yourself.

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Rupert Isaacson: That's a
wonderful place to begin.

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Carola Beekmann: Thank you
so much for inviting me.

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I'm happy to be here.

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Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us
who you are, and perhaps how and

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why you got into this funny old
business of the equine assisted world?

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Carola Beekmann: Sure.

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I live in my with my husband and my
daughter in a little town called Drempt,

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which is about 20 kilometers from
Arnhem, in the east of the Netherlands.

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And I started my career as a teacher and
already during my my days in college, I

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chose the path of the special needs kids.

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One of the reasons was, is I am myself
as I was myself, a special needs kid.

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And yeah, after a 20 years in working
in schools, first as a teacher, then

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as a special needs coordinator, coach
for teachers, et cetera I did my

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school principal educational program
and decided that There wasn't a school

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that I would like to lead because
the way I wanted it it didn't exist.

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So, that was one of the reasons
why I quit working in schools.

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And in the meantime I've been
also always been a horsey girl.

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I was the kind of girl who had her
walls plastered with pony posters

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and would Get any moment to, to go
to a pony near to feed it a carrot or

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something and to give it a, a brush
or whatever I was allowed to do.

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So, I also really became
interested in horse training.

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So at the end of my career as a
school teacher, I was combining it

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with being a horse riding instructor.

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And for that, I did clinics abroad.

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Went to all kinds of interesting places
like South Africa, Kazakhstan, Qatar

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Texas South Africa and Finland too.

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And that was cool.

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And then there came a moment where I
could combine the two, the special needs

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kids and the training of the horses.

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And yeah, that's when
this all got started.

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Tell me,

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Rupert Isaacson: you say that you
were a special needs kid yourself.

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That's really intriguing.

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What type of special needs kid were you?

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Carola Beekmann: Well, it was first of all
I really struggled to learn how to read.

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That was one of my earlier struggles.

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The other one was concentration.

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I was really good at concentrating
where the fly in the classroom was.

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I'm not as much paying attention
to what I was supposed to do.

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I was also one of those kids who
never, never could figure out when,

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which subject would be like after a
short break on a Thursday, everybody

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would pull out their geography books.

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And I was like, why are you doing this?

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And it turned out that every Thursday
after the short break, we got geography.

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I had no idea.

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So, the whole Time, uh, awareness.

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It just wasn't there.

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And the other thing that happened later
in  is that I got really badly bullied.

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And it became so bad I got so
stressed out that I lost all my hair.

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So, at the age of 12, 13,
I was completely bald.

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I just had one or two little hairs here in
front, and the rest of my hair was gone.

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Pure due to the stress of being bullied.

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That's

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Rupert Isaacson: a very, very
hard thing for an adolescent

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girl to go through, as you said.

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So you say, you're saying right
at your, as basis, puberty hits.

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you lose your, your hair in
school that had to be something

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of a nightmare, surely?

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Carola Beekmann: Definitely.

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And not just for me, for my
parents as well, of course.

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I heard that later especially from
my dad, how much he worried about

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me, but yeah, there were definitely
suicidal thoughts at times.

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But I couldn't figure out how to
Leave this life without hurting other

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people around me like my family.

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So That's what kept me going because
I didn't want to hurt other people

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But yeah, it was a a tough time.

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Definitely.

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Were you involved?

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Yeah, and

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Rupert Isaacson: Does this
help you get through that?

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Carola Beekmann: Yes, actually I was
in a pony club, it was just starting

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because I remember one time we had
a jumping lesson and I was always

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there with my helmet on, right?

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So nobody really knew or saw.

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And we had a jumping lesson and I fell
off, my helmet fell off and one of the

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dads rushed to me to come and help me.

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And he was just totally in
shock because I was bald.

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So yeah, I around that time, I
started to spend a lot of time with my

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neighbor's horse or a pony, actually.

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Yeah, and that definitely helped me to
have my happy moments outside of school.

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And also, I was blessed in a way
because I was, um, in my secondary

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school in my own small town.

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Which was a blessing and what's
the opposite of blessing again?

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It was also not so good
because yeah, curse.

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Thank you.

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I lost the word.

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Because you know, people in a village,
they cause they gossip about you,

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but also it's sheltered, right?

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So the kids in my school, they, they
know they knew who I was and, and

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yeah, accepted me for what I was.

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So.

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In my secondary school, which was during
that time, I made that decision when I

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was both, um, yeah, it was okay there.

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It was of course still hard, but the
girl that used to bully me was, didn't

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go to that same secondary school.

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So I was yeah, we were separated
because of the school change and yeah,

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then I slowly started to heal again.

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But yeah, that pony, every
minute out of school, not having

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to do homework, I was there.

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So, so you and, and

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Rupert Isaacson: the pony young just tell
me quickly I, I don't mean to make you

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dwell on a painful time, but obviously
this is, gives one, no, it's okay.

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Yeah.

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How long did it take for you to get to
a point where your, your stress levels,

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your cortisol levels could come down
enough that your hair could regrow

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and you could feel the confidence to
then go on and clearly, you know, do

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well in secondary, you know, Later
education and so on to the point where

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you could be thinking about becoming
a school principal because obviously

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that takes quite a lot of confidence.

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Can you just do a little bit
of how that shifted for you?

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Because I think that will inform a
lot about the equine assisted work.

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Carola Beekmann: Well, I, it took
me about until the end of my second

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grade in, in secondary school.

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So about two years to, to get
my, my feedback on the ground.

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anD that the main thing why I
remember that so clearly, because

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then my my grades really went up.

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I remember the, the headmaster of my
primary school said I, I should go to

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the lowest level of secondary school
because I couldn't deal with more.

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And luckily my parents supported me and
I went one level up, um, and I really

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struggled the first two years because
of all the stress and all the, well,

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I now know all the cortisol and Yeah.

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At the end of the second year,
my, my grades went up and I

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started to feel more okay.

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And during that time I was really
active in in the pony club and we had

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competitions nearly every Saturday,
which we went to in a big truck, load

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up all the ponies and go somewhere
around in our area to go out for a day.

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And those Saturdays
were a blessing for me.

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to, to hang out with the horses
and with my friends and do

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the dressage and the jumping.

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So I, I kind of lived for those Saturdays.

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Yeah, they, they really
helped me through that period.

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Rupert Isaacson: That, that is
somewhat surprising because, you

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know, my, my memories of competing as
a teenager which I did a lot of too.

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I found it quite stressful.

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How did you deal with, given that
you were suffering from stress, you

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know, to the point that your, your
hair had fallen out and so on, did

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you not find the same stresses in the
competition world of riding, or did

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you somehow manage to make some sort
of separation in that, in your mind?

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What was going on there?

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Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I, I guess for me,
the, the joy of being with my pony club.

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With all my friends and also
especially for the dressage

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part of it, I was pretty good.

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So,  I, I didn't really have to
struggle to get all my points

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to, to get to the next level.

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And I think that also did a lot with
my confidence because well, once

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I was like 16, 17, I wrote it at
the highest level of my pony club.

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And I could kind of start helping
and coaching the younger kids.

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So, I think for me, the, my mom, in
hindsight, my mom said you, you were

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really nervous every Saturday morning.

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She couldn't say anything
to me and I would snap.

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I don't really recall that.

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How unusual for so it must be true.

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So,  so yeah, there was definitely some
stress, but I think it was like more

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like a stage fright kind of stress.

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Not really that, uh, trauma stress
it's, it's, it's a different feel.

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Yeah.

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I

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Rupert Isaacson: I hear
you at least for me.

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And there's a bit of a clue in
what you were saying there too.

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You said that you were really
enjoying being with this group

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of friends in the Pony Club.

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So you found community and some sort
of tribal, familial support there.

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Why do you think that?

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And Go ahead, you go ahead and I'll
come back to this question in a minute.

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Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

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The interesting one is that the girl
that bullied me in primary school.

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Was at the same pony club.

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Because we both were a bit older.

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Yeah, we, we got along.

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It, it was my mom who really could
never forgive her for what she did

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to me, but for her and me, myself, it
was a non issue at that time, really.

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So you managed to make it.

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I, I, I questioned.

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Yeah, I, I actually.

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I never asked her, but I actually don't
think that she remembers it like that.

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She bullied me.

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And later on, when I went to
college to become a teacher, I I

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also learned that problem is with
the one that bullies and not.

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The victim of the bullying that really
gave me a different perspective on her.

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Like she, you know, she lived on a farm.

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The rest of us all lived in the
village, so she might have felt like

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an outsider herself and needed to, I
don't know make herself bigger and more

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important to feel seen or whatever.

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So, but yeah, we made peace with it
and we did pony camps together and

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competing together and it was all good.

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Yeah, my mom, my mom held a grudge,
which I can also understand.

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Rupert Isaacson: That's a
really, really good insight.

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I think it's quite rare for somebody
to have gone through that full cycle

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of being the victim, going through
the suffering, making peace with it,

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forgiving the perpetrator then making
peace with the perpetrator and going on

00:17:30.531 --> 00:17:32.491
to forge a new relationship with them.

00:17:33.521 --> 00:17:36.581
At that young age, that must...

00:17:37.186 --> 00:17:39.796
obviously inform a lot.

00:17:40.586 --> 00:17:47.776
Of the work that you do now, the
fact that you could, do you feel that

00:17:47.776 --> 00:17:53.366
because you managed to, um, go through
and not stay in the victim role?

00:17:55.026 --> 00:17:58.726
That must give you insights now into
the populations that you're working

00:17:58.726 --> 00:18:00.346
with in the equine assistive world.

00:18:00.506 --> 00:18:01.706
Would, would you

00:18:01.706 --> 00:18:02.056
Carola Beekmann: think?

00:18:05.086 --> 00:18:06.286
Yes, absolutely.

00:18:08.666 --> 00:18:15.836
There's always a deeper,
um, meaning behind behavior.

00:18:16.331 --> 00:18:22.321
You know, people are not mean just
because they're mean or you know,

00:18:22.331 --> 00:18:24.471
there's always a story behind it.

00:18:24.471 --> 00:18:30.241
And for me, it's always very
interesting to, uh, find the story,

00:18:30.241 --> 00:18:35.901
like what is hurting you, what is
frustrating you, what's, what's

00:18:35.901 --> 00:18:38.761
the story behind your anger or.

00:18:39.291 --> 00:18:46.211
your dominance or in other
cases why are you so introvert?

00:18:46.231 --> 00:18:47.791
What, what's the story behind it?

00:18:47.791 --> 00:18:49.041
And that's always.

00:18:49.846 --> 00:18:54.546
For me, a trigger to really get to
know the person and then help them

00:18:54.566 --> 00:18:59.676
through whatever is bugging them that
makes them behave the way they behave.

00:19:00.936 --> 00:19:02.166
So yeah, definitely.

00:19:03.876 --> 00:19:07.506
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you also told
us that you had a natural penchant,

00:19:07.526 --> 00:19:11.146
which I guess also must have helped,
as you said, with your regaining

00:19:11.146 --> 00:19:12.736
of confidence in the dressage.

00:19:13.066 --> 00:19:19.996
I do know that you went on to have and
pro and still do have quite a full career

00:19:20.046 --> 00:19:24.616
in dressage training just so that people
listening can understand your background.

00:19:24.626 --> 00:19:27.116
Cause we're going to talk about
how you've brought that into

00:19:27.116 --> 00:19:28.636
your equine assisted work.

00:19:28.946 --> 00:19:32.906
Can you tell us a little bit about
the dressage path that you followed?

00:19:32.936 --> 00:19:36.426
And then we can return to that
in the context of, of the equine

00:19:36.426 --> 00:19:37.596
assisted work in a, in a moment.

00:19:41.051 --> 00:19:44.451
Carola Beekmann: So of course in
the pony club and as a young adult,

00:19:44.481 --> 00:19:49.321
I just did what everybody did, the,
the, the English way of writing.

00:19:49.951 --> 00:19:54.851
And then I stumbled upon a horse,
which that didn't work for.

00:19:55.431 --> 00:20:01.751
And I got to know a an instructor
who, uh, came from the academic

00:20:02.031 --> 00:20:03.551
side of the horse training.

00:20:03.571 --> 00:20:04.341
So really.

00:20:05.031 --> 00:20:08.751
From the old way of horse
training and, and instead of.

00:20:09.611 --> 00:20:14.181
A horse for the dressage to make
us look good and fill our egos with

00:20:14.351 --> 00:20:19.501
being beautiful and doing cool stuff
totally reversing it and saying,

00:20:19.501 --> 00:20:22.001
okay, this is dressage for the horse.

00:20:22.631 --> 00:20:26.201
So we look at this horse, we
see what this horse needs.

00:20:26.816 --> 00:20:32.106
And then we use these particular
exercises to build up this horse.

00:20:32.116 --> 00:20:37.596
So, strengthening the hind legs
flexibility, balance, all that stuff

00:20:38.166 --> 00:20:40.616
really tailor made to the horse.

00:20:41.176 --> 00:20:45.716
And that is what really got me excited
again, also because of the, after

00:20:45.716 --> 00:20:50.206
the birth of my daughter, I wasn't
interested in, in the competition anymore.

00:20:51.236 --> 00:20:55.896
One, because what I saw at
the competitions is how other

00:20:55.906 --> 00:20:57.936
people mistreated their horses.

00:20:58.006 --> 00:20:59.146
That really made me sad.

00:20:59.716 --> 00:21:02.246
And the other was really
practical with a, with a baby.

00:21:02.246 --> 00:21:03.776
You don't have time at least.

00:21:04.236 --> 00:21:06.546
I couldn't make the time to compete.

00:21:07.656 --> 00:21:14.506
So, reversing that process, like, okay,
looking at each individual horse and what

00:21:14.536 --> 00:21:20.326
do you need to gain your strength and
flexibility, but also their confidence

00:21:20.986 --> 00:21:27.156
is yeah, a big shift I made in the
horse training and that of course  is

00:21:27.156 --> 00:21:32.206
in a, has a strong relationship with
how I work with the kids I work with and

00:21:32.206 --> 00:21:37.696
the adults is not this is the program
you we're going to do this program

00:21:37.696 --> 00:21:39.086
and you need to fit in the program.

00:21:39.596 --> 00:21:42.216
No, we're, this is who you are.

00:21:42.496 --> 00:21:48.966
I have this framework, uh, but we're gonna
totally tailor make it to your needs.

00:21:50.476 --> 00:21:54.816
So that's for me, a big parallel
between the horse riding and

00:21:54.816 --> 00:21:56.236
equine assisted work we do.

00:21:57.021 --> 00:21:59.731
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me, tell us a little
bit about this horse that changed your,

00:21:59.831 --> 00:22:02.011
your way of looking at the dressage.

00:22:02.021 --> 00:22:03.631
What, what was going on with this horse?

00:22:03.791 --> 00:22:04.471
What was the story?

00:22:07.271 --> 00:22:07.671
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

00:22:07.731 --> 00:22:08.161
Okay.

00:22:08.211 --> 00:22:09.521
His name was Macho.

00:22:09.751 --> 00:22:13.691
I got him when he was two and
a half and he was my first

00:22:13.941 --> 00:22:16.051
horse after my pony career.

00:22:16.541 --> 00:22:22.401
He didn't know anything, so I had to train
him myself and it was a huge struggle.

00:22:24.346 --> 00:22:28.646
Nine years later, after many people had
told me to get rid of him because he

00:22:28.646 --> 00:22:35.416
was dangerous and whatever I found out
that he had trauma from his castration.

00:22:36.406 --> 00:22:41.606
Both still physical pain as in
back then not being sedated enough.

00:22:41.606 --> 00:22:49.806
So he consciously went through that and
it made him really stiff in his hind legs.

00:22:50.566 --> 00:22:56.216
He really wanted to keep his
junk as quiet as possible.

00:22:56.676 --> 00:23:03.196
So he, he, he walked really still with
his hind legs to, to keep it all as still

00:23:03.196 --> 00:23:04.976
as possible, so didn't hurt that much.

00:23:05.756 --> 00:23:11.996
So after treating that, I already
had an 11 year old horse and then

00:23:12.036 --> 00:23:14.356
I could finally start training him.

00:23:14.616 --> 00:23:19.306
But yeah, it's, it's needed
to be that tailor made way.

00:23:19.921 --> 00:23:26.051
To really get him to teach him how
to use his hind legs properly and,

00:23:26.071 --> 00:23:31.001
and get the flexibility there and
get him the confidence that he could

00:23:31.021 --> 00:23:32.831
move now and it didn't hurt anymore.

00:23:33.471 --> 00:23:35.851
How did you find that was a long journey?

00:23:36.461 --> 00:23:39.371
Rupert Isaacson: How did you find
out that it was stretched and that's

00:23:39.371 --> 00:23:42.101
an interesting things I want a lot
of horses must go through that.

00:23:42.101 --> 00:23:42.591
Yes.

00:23:42.931 --> 00:23:43.621
So yeah.

00:23:43.621 --> 00:23:45.651
What did

00:23:45.651 --> 00:23:46.331
Carola Beekmann: you find out?

00:23:48.476 --> 00:23:48.846
Yeah.

00:23:48.886 --> 00:23:54.956
So yes, to say it's like one
in six horses are still in some

00:23:54.956 --> 00:23:57.096
way suffering from their scar.

00:23:57.656 --> 00:23:58.976
So how did I find it out?

00:23:58.976 --> 00:24:00.976
I had a massage therapist with him.

00:24:01.016 --> 00:24:06.156
She does she had to therapy
and she said he, he responds

00:24:06.186 --> 00:24:08.076
differently than other horses.

00:24:08.921 --> 00:24:13.711
And that was already when he was 10
or 11 and, and I said, because, you

00:24:13.711 --> 00:24:17.981
know, I was trying everything, you
know, I had saddle maker fits for

00:24:17.981 --> 00:24:20.211
his back, whatever, I tried it all.

00:24:20.771 --> 00:24:25.161
And then I said, well, okay, you know,
I have him since he was two and a half,

00:24:26.011 --> 00:24:28.761
uh, nothing really special happened.

00:24:28.761 --> 00:24:33.371
So if there is something, it
must have been between his

00:24:33.621 --> 00:24:36.021
birth or maybe his conception.

00:24:36.531 --> 00:24:37.701
And two and a half.

00:24:38.691 --> 00:24:42.031
So what happens in that
period, his castration.

00:24:42.451 --> 00:24:49.901
So she, during the massage, she
went with her hand towards, um, his

00:24:49.971 --> 00:24:53.991
private parts and he just freaked out.

00:24:54.981 --> 00:24:55.431
Okay.

00:24:55.471 --> 00:24:56.981
The problem is right there.

00:24:58.951 --> 00:25:04.271
And then I had I brought him to
an holistic fat and I had to put

00:25:04.501 --> 00:25:12.841
some, Um, special cream on the scar
to, to, to soften the scar tissue.

00:25:12.841 --> 00:25:14.201
So that was one part of it.

00:25:14.841 --> 00:25:21.531
And he got like, silver pearls,
homeopathic pearls for the trauma release.

00:25:21.531 --> 00:25:29.771
And, uh, I didn't know back then what
I saw but he started to yawn and, and

00:25:29.781 --> 00:25:32.121
chew and lick and yawn and yawn more.

00:25:32.411 --> 00:25:36.281
So now I know what that all means,
but back then I didn't, you know, the.

00:25:36.926 --> 00:25:37.706
stable owner.

00:25:37.706 --> 00:25:38.996
She came and stand with me.

00:25:38.996 --> 00:25:41.326
She's like, wow, what's going on here?

00:25:41.326 --> 00:25:44.406
And I was like, yeah, he's being treated.

00:25:44.406 --> 00:25:47.516
So she already knew more
than I at that time.

00:25:48.476 --> 00:25:51.816
So yeah, that was the start
of his healing process.

00:25:52.016 --> 00:26:01.906
And he died one day before his 21st
birthday, but I got him up to, well, doing

00:26:01.946 --> 00:26:04.676
all the highest level massage movements.

00:26:05.516 --> 00:26:11.616
He was still crawling, crawling a
bit forward, but up to that level.

00:26:12.276 --> 00:26:19.626
So, yeah, he, he had a good
life after his 11th birthday.

00:26:19.726 --> 00:26:22.706
So, but before that it
was a big suffer for him.

00:26:22.946 --> 00:26:23.256
Yeah.

00:26:23.426 --> 00:26:26.116
Interesting that you, you,
and I was grateful that I.

00:26:27.341 --> 00:26:28.531
Continue to search.

00:26:31.241 --> 00:26:32.501
Sorry, I interrupted you.

00:26:34.671 --> 00:26:36.621
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just finding it's,
it's very interesting that you, you

00:26:36.631 --> 00:26:41.881
had this early trauma yourself, which
you then recovered from through horses.

00:26:41.881 --> 00:26:46.521
And then you ended up with a special needs
horse who had had trauma, physical trauma.

00:26:47.031 --> 00:26:47.151
Yes.

00:26:47.561 --> 00:26:51.571
But of course the emotional trauma is
obviously a given with that kind of an

00:26:51.571 --> 00:26:56.041
injury and injury and invasion, you know?

00:26:56.061 --> 00:27:00.131
So, so you said that you
found your way through.

00:27:00.686 --> 00:27:05.836
Also with the training with him, so beyond
the actual treatment of the injury and the

00:27:05.836 --> 00:27:09.116
trauma, as you said, the release of the
trauma, you also found your way through

00:27:09.466 --> 00:27:12.706
academic approaches to horse training.

00:27:12.776 --> 00:27:15.766
When you say the old way, I presume
you mean the Baroque way, like the old

00:27:15.766 --> 00:27:17.806
masters way, would that be correct?

00:27:18.211 --> 00:27:18.641
Yes,

00:27:18.721 --> 00:27:19.481
Carola Beekmann: exactly.

00:27:19.631 --> 00:27:21.251
Yes, exactly.

00:27:21.581 --> 00:27:21.861
Yeah.

00:27:22.061 --> 00:27:23.671
So what would you

00:27:23.671 --> 00:27:27.051
Rupert Isaacson: say marks that
out so differently or particularly

00:27:27.051 --> 00:27:34.041
differently from the other more
modern conventional forms of horse

00:27:34.051 --> 00:27:35.181
training that we'd see today?

00:27:35.181 --> 00:27:37.881
What's, what's the main difference
that you would think in terms

00:27:37.881 --> 00:27:38.881
of the benefit for the horse?

00:27:44.211 --> 00:27:48.891
Carola Beekmann: Because you're doing
it for the horse and not for a test.

00:27:49.941 --> 00:27:53.581
It's a completely
different way of thinking.

00:27:53.581 --> 00:27:58.721
You know, you can, you can write a
particular exercise because you're

00:27:58.721 --> 00:28:02.081
up for competing and that exercise
needs to be shown in your dressage

00:28:02.081 --> 00:28:08.981
test, or you can write that particular
exercise to build up your horse.

00:28:09.761 --> 00:28:11.131
And I, for me, that's.

00:28:11.786 --> 00:28:18.986
the main difference that I, I see, or I
always look for what does this horse need?

00:28:18.986 --> 00:28:25.056
And it can be in hand or lunging,
liberty ridden in the long lines.

00:28:25.796 --> 00:28:31.016
What makes this horse feel
better, uh, mentally, emotionally

00:28:31.216 --> 00:28:32.416
what do they like to do?

00:28:32.746 --> 00:28:38.876
But also what makes them stronger
and, and, and flexible physically.

00:28:40.696 --> 00:28:43.186
So, I think the, the
different perspective.

00:28:44.346 --> 00:28:44.746
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:28:44.796 --> 00:28:48.996
But given that we're all horse nerds,
we can, we can, on this show, we

00:28:48.996 --> 00:28:50.346
can, we can dive in a little deeper.

00:28:50.346 --> 00:28:55.846
I'm sure viewers listeners would
like to know what exercises did you

00:28:55.846 --> 00:29:02.291
do with this horse to Create the
well being that hadn't been there.

00:29:02.711 --> 00:29:06.521
Can you remember sort of the basic
program that you put him through?

00:29:06.961 --> 00:29:09.941
I know this obviously would have
gone on over a couple of years, but

00:29:10.131 --> 00:29:15.311
nonetheless, can you sort of summarize
for us what exercises did you do?

00:29:15.361 --> 00:29:16.561
A, B, C, D, E and F.

00:29:16.601 --> 00:29:21.351
How did you build him up in
mind and body to well being?

00:29:23.616 --> 00:29:24.096
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

00:29:24.836 --> 00:29:28.646
So, in the beginning, it was
a lot of work on the circle.

00:29:28.676 --> 00:29:34.596
So,  I could teach him a proper
lateral bending and forward down

00:29:34.656 --> 00:29:37.296
and stepping under of the hind leg.

00:29:37.306 --> 00:29:43.516
And that was his main issue is that
he had such lack of flexibility

00:29:43.816 --> 00:29:48.686
in his hind leg because he was
used to working, walking so short.

00:29:49.371 --> 00:29:54.101
so I really had to teach him that
he could lengthen his stride and

00:29:54.111 --> 00:29:59.171
really step under his belly on the
circle to get that flexibility.

00:30:00.341 --> 00:30:03.921
After the circles, I
went to the shoulder in.

00:30:04.706 --> 00:30:07.186
First I did a lot of it in hand.

00:30:07.196 --> 00:30:10.436
So without the weight
of of the rider on top.

00:30:10.726 --> 00:30:15.366
And yeah, so the shoulder in that
both trains, the lateral bending,

00:30:15.376 --> 00:30:19.656
the forward down and more exaggerated
stepping under what we call on

00:30:19.696 --> 00:30:21.686
three tracks of the inside hind leg.

00:30:21.716 --> 00:30:22.066
So.

00:30:22.771 --> 00:30:28.471
anD when he could do that, we advanced
to the horn chaussein, which trains

00:30:28.561 --> 00:30:33.021
again, the lateral bending, but in
this case, the outside hind leg to

00:30:33.021 --> 00:30:36.891
step under, which is a, where the
body is slightly different movement

00:30:36.941 --> 00:30:38.766
than an inside leg stepping under.

00:30:39.336 --> 00:30:44.706
And from that, we progressed
to half parts and work periods.

00:30:45.256 --> 00:30:50.756
And in that way, got more collection,
more weight to the hind legs.

00:30:51.516 --> 00:30:59.246
And what I did is after he was good
with a particular exercise in hand, I

00:30:59.246 --> 00:31:01.076
would start doing them written as well.

00:31:01.076 --> 00:31:05.026
So I would add my own weight and
get, give all the aids from on

00:31:05.046 --> 00:31:06.416
top instead of from the ground.

00:31:07.156 --> 00:31:10.826
And that really gave him a
lot of confidence because he,

00:31:10.836 --> 00:31:12.506
he knew he could do the move.

00:31:13.166 --> 00:31:17.746
He had the strength and the balance
and well with me on top, he needed to

00:31:18.296 --> 00:31:22.516
get a bit more stronger and a bit more
balanced, but because he already knew

00:31:22.526 --> 00:31:28.526
what to do, it really gave him the
confidence to, to do those movements and

00:31:28.776 --> 00:31:30.496
doing more and more of that movement.

00:31:31.926 --> 00:31:34.006
made him stronger and more confident.

00:31:34.576 --> 00:31:36.756
Yeah, he became a different horse.

00:31:37.226 --> 00:31:42.656
Rupert Isaacson: So did you find
that the in his physical strength

00:31:42.686 --> 00:31:45.866
and Suppleness and dexterity.

00:31:46.586 --> 00:31:49.326
It's really interesting that
you say it had a a mental and

00:31:49.326 --> 00:31:51.216
emotional knock on effect.

00:31:51.636 --> 00:31:54.416
Because of course, a lot of
people have encountered, say,

00:31:54.416 --> 00:31:56.006
sport dressage sort of feel.

00:31:56.006 --> 00:31:58.076
Okay, that's not dressage,
that's stressage.

00:31:58.346 --> 00:32:02.816
You know, it's interesting to hear
about the dressage being done.

00:32:03.411 --> 00:32:05.381
Really is the therapeutic
work for a horse.

00:32:05.491 --> 00:32:10.631
Would you compare that say to martial
arts, like you could use a martial arts

00:32:10.651 --> 00:32:17.051
move to fight, or you could also use it
to heal an injury you got in a fight,

00:32:17.081 --> 00:32:21.521
depending on how the, how the martial
arts teacher was looking at that.

00:32:21.711 --> 00:32:23.151
Is it something similar to that?

00:32:25.851 --> 00:32:27.231
Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.

00:32:27.261 --> 00:32:32.711
And, and the other way
I compare it to is yoga.

00:32:33.481 --> 00:32:38.941
You, you make them flexible and
strong in a way that you say, Oh, do

00:32:38.941 --> 00:32:40.711
you really need that in daily life?

00:32:41.131 --> 00:32:44.671
Because you have that extra
strength and extra flexibility.

00:32:45.356 --> 00:32:48.646
Daily life gets much more
easy to, to get through.

00:32:49.146 --> 00:32:53.826
So yeah, it's both the martial arts
concept and the yoga concept for me.

00:32:55.156 --> 00:32:55.746
Okay.

00:32:56.296 --> 00:32:59.576
Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's
interesting because obviously in a lot of

00:32:59.586 --> 00:33:05.676
the therapeutic riding well to date, at
least traditionally, that sort of horse

00:33:05.696 --> 00:33:08.306
training does not seem to have been a.

00:33:09.596 --> 00:33:13.066
A part of of the approaches.

00:33:13.116 --> 00:33:18.456
In fact you know, one of the things
that struck me quite often when I was

00:33:18.456 --> 00:33:24.166
looking at it in the early days was that
horses were often clearly in pain or,

00:33:24.476 --> 00:33:29.296
you know, stiff and old and arthritic and
had been donated to therapeutic riding

00:33:29.296 --> 00:33:34.886
places because they were quiet, um, but
seems to be hurting in their bodies.

00:33:34.886 --> 00:33:37.126
And I think, I think a lot
of people have seen this.

00:33:38.616 --> 00:33:40.106
Do you feel.

00:33:40.861 --> 00:33:45.691
Is, is it something unusual your
approach to this equine wellbeing?

00:33:45.691 --> 00:33:48.291
We're going to go into your,
your, your equine assisted

00:33:48.291 --> 00:33:50.031
work in a, in a, in a moment.

00:33:50.201 --> 00:33:52.891
Or do you think this is
something that's great?

00:33:52.901 --> 00:33:56.421
Is it something that's more there in the
Netherlands or would you still say within

00:33:56.421 --> 00:34:02.971
the, within that equine assisted world,
within the Netherlands, your approach

00:34:02.971 --> 00:34:08.091
through this kind of old masters yoga
for the horse is something a bit unusual?

00:34:08.101 --> 00:34:08.651
Whoa.

00:34:08.651 --> 00:34:08.711
Whoa.

00:34:08.861 --> 00:34:10.421
What, where do you feel it's at

00:34:10.541 --> 00:34:10.861
Carola Beekmann: now?

00:34:13.721 --> 00:34:20.851
Yeah, there's definitely more and more
attention for horse welfare in the, in

00:34:20.851 --> 00:34:23.351
the, in the assisted quite assisted world.

00:34:23.471 --> 00:34:26.371
In the Netherlands, there are
studies being done, there are

00:34:27.081 --> 00:34:30.061
Rules and regulations, of course,
because we are the Netherlands.

00:34:30.571 --> 00:34:36.261
But the, this way of training yeah,
I'm, I'm definitely pioneering in that

00:34:36.431 --> 00:34:41.771
and I'm trying to bring it over to the.

00:34:42.496 --> 00:34:48.706
The, the traditional writing
for people with special needs.

00:34:50.686 --> 00:34:55.896
And there's definitely interest, but
we, we have to see how we can build

00:34:55.896 --> 00:35:01.986
it in because of the time limits, as
you well aware of these horses need to

00:35:01.986 --> 00:35:08.396
work and there's not always, or always
not timed for extra time for training.

00:35:08.416 --> 00:35:12.156
So we, we, we are
building a system as you.

00:35:12.911 --> 00:35:19.221
taught me through Athena, like, okay,
how can we serve the clients and train

00:35:19.221 --> 00:35:21.751
the horses sort of at the same time.

00:35:21.871 --> 00:35:27.301
So, I'm, I'm getting my feelers out
here and there's interested and we are

00:35:28.741 --> 00:35:32.911
we're going to start off with the, the
horse boy one with those instructors.

00:35:33.021 --> 00:35:37.591
And from that we will deepen and
widen their knowledge hopefully

00:35:37.601 --> 00:35:38.951
in the, in the near future.

00:35:39.961 --> 00:35:44.251
Rupert Isaacson: So, so you feel
that one can serve the client.

00:35:44.686 --> 00:35:46.946
And the horse at the same time
without there having to be a

00:35:46.946 --> 00:35:48.446
time conflict in the training.

00:35:48.816 --> 00:35:52.076
Can the, can the training itself
be the therapeutic session

00:35:52.226 --> 00:35:53.256
that you do with the client?

00:35:55.326 --> 00:35:56.656
Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.

00:35:56.916 --> 00:36:02.076
Like the the way we do
the, the back riding.

00:36:02.356 --> 00:36:05.236
The horse moves at least in a healthy way.

00:36:05.706 --> 00:36:10.596
And if you make a lot of transitions
and turns during all the play.

00:36:11.651 --> 00:36:15.661
You're also training the horse
while he is carrying a kid and

00:36:15.721 --> 00:36:18.021
you on top, same for long lines.

00:36:18.141 --> 00:36:25.641
If you if you do it in, in in a way
that you can serve your clients,

00:36:25.651 --> 00:36:27.291
you can also serve your horse.

00:36:27.291 --> 00:36:31.941
Because again, you, through the
ways that you taught us all The

00:36:31.941 --> 00:36:33.381
horse moves in a healthy way.

00:36:33.381 --> 00:36:36.376
And when you, can you
talk, talk to us how you,

00:36:37.781 --> 00:36:41.341
Rupert Isaacson: how do you use the the
lunging, the lo, the in-hand work and the

00:36:41.341 --> 00:36:43.501
long reigning when you're serving clients?

00:36:43.501 --> 00:36:45.721
Can you for, for, I think
for a lot of listeners, this

00:36:45.721 --> 00:36:46.861
might be something quite new.

00:36:47.241 --> 00:36:48.591
Can you talk us through?

00:36:48.991 --> 00:36:52.631
Like a session where you would
be using those techniques as

00:36:52.631 --> 00:36:53.971
part of the client session.

00:36:54.181 --> 00:36:57.481
So I think in a lot of people's minds,
it's still leading horses around

00:36:57.481 --> 00:36:58.871
in circles with somebody on top.

00:36:59.081 --> 00:37:04.031
How are you, how are you using things
like lunging, long reining and, and in

00:37:04.031 --> 00:37:05.991
hand work when you're serving clients?

00:37:06.051 --> 00:37:07.861
I think that would be really
useful for us to know.

00:37:11.301 --> 00:37:11.741
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

00:37:11.921 --> 00:37:12.381
So,

00:37:12.775 --> 00:37:18.980
for example, for the, for the long lining
you know, Ideally you go out on trails.

00:37:19.020 --> 00:37:20.360
I don't have many here.

00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:24.300
I can go around the village, but I
do a lot of my work in the arena.

00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.210
So yeah, I lose, I use all sorts of
play equipments and also the, the

00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:34.620
the letters in the arena and I add
numbers there and then we can just.

00:37:35.515 --> 00:37:41.245
Yeah, we do games like tag or hide
and seek and all kinds of variations

00:37:41.275 --> 00:37:45.965
in which the horse needs to go to
the left or go to the right, do

00:37:45.965 --> 00:37:47.685
a little trot, do a little walk.

00:37:47.775 --> 00:37:51.475
I even have one that can do a few
countersteps in the long lines.

00:37:51.985 --> 00:37:57.725
So you get the kid on top getting
a lot of nice movement imbalance.

00:37:58.530 --> 00:38:03.290
Rhythmic and the horse through all
the changes of direction and all the

00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:09.610
transitions from walk to canter to hold
to pot gets his training in the meanwhile.

00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:10.350
Okay.

00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:15.300
And there's a big difference between
that and, and leading the, yeah.

00:38:15.810 --> 00:38:20.850
So when you're leading the horse, it goes
a bit forward, too much forward down.

00:38:21.410 --> 00:38:26.700
And the child on top or the adult on
top will lean forward with that with,

00:38:27.590 --> 00:38:31.920
and then they, they have to engage
their psoas muscles, which gives them

00:38:32.390 --> 00:38:36.360
a stress reaction because those, that
muscle and that stress reaction is.

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:38.030
Directly connected.

00:38:38.590 --> 00:38:44.300
So, you want the horse to be in
a, in a nice horizontal, even

00:38:44.300 --> 00:38:51.580
a bit heel up position to give
the, the person on top the right.

00:38:51.775 --> 00:38:55.135
Balance and rhythm that

00:38:55.135 --> 00:39:00.295
Rupert Isaacson: you talk about, can
you, you said the, so if, if they end

00:39:00.295 --> 00:39:03.905
up, if they talk forward and they end
up engaging the psoas muscle some people

00:39:03.905 --> 00:39:04.795
might think, Oh, well, that's good.

00:39:04.795 --> 00:39:07.315
They're engaging a muscle, but
you said, no, actually that

00:39:07.315 --> 00:39:08.225
creates a stress reaction.

00:39:08.845 --> 00:39:12.985
Why, why is there a connection between
this thing up the psoas muscle?

00:39:13.165 --> 00:39:17.125
If the horse is on the shoulders
like that and stress what, what's

00:39:17.125 --> 00:39:18.665
going on there physiologically.

00:39:20.105 --> 00:39:20.475
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

00:39:21.285 --> 00:39:26.815
So when, when the horse is on the
shoulder, so, well we, the, also the,

00:39:26.825 --> 00:39:29.235
the geeky term is walking downhill.

00:39:29.965 --> 00:39:33.215
The rider on top or the
person on top starts to lean

00:39:33.215 --> 00:39:35.355
forward to find their balance.

00:39:35.965 --> 00:39:40.845
And to, to be able to do that, you have to
engage your psoas muscle, but that psoas

00:39:40.865 --> 00:39:46.285
muscle is a very important muscle that is
connected to your fight flight response.

00:39:46.885 --> 00:39:50.465
So when you are in danger, you
need to engage that muscle to

00:39:50.485 --> 00:39:53.725
either flee or start fighting.

00:39:54.215 --> 00:39:58.805
Or freeze is another response and
a very extreme response is faint.

00:39:59.405 --> 00:40:05.555
So you, and that creates cortisol,
a stress hormone, and that is

00:40:05.625 --> 00:40:08.115
what our population of clients.

00:40:08.535 --> 00:40:09.835
really struggle off.

00:40:10.075 --> 00:40:14.895
They have way too much cortisol, uh,
flow flowing through their bodies.

00:40:15.415 --> 00:40:20.925
So we want the other  hormone,
which is called oxytocin.

00:40:21.115 --> 00:40:27.215
And that is the happiness hormone or
the communication hormone which helps

00:40:27.215 --> 00:40:29.505
us to relax and wash out the cortisol.

00:40:30.345 --> 00:40:37.285
So, you need a horse that is at least
horizontal and preferably hill up moving

00:40:37.295 --> 00:40:41.205
in a hill up or uphill, sorry kind of way.

00:40:42.795 --> 00:40:43.345
So that the,

00:40:43.345 --> 00:40:45.225
Rupert Isaacson: The person
on top can relax the saddle.

00:40:46.255 --> 00:40:46.765
I see.

00:40:47.665 --> 00:40:48.065
Okay.

00:40:48.075 --> 00:40:48.765
Exactly.

00:40:48.985 --> 00:40:49.455
Yes.

00:40:50.395 --> 00:40:54.245
So, that's interesting because
I guess in, in, in a lot of the

00:40:54.395 --> 00:40:58.365
traditional therapeutic environments,
it's, it's been the opposite.

00:40:58.375 --> 00:41:01.935
It's been about leading horses rather
than say, putting a horse in the

00:41:01.935 --> 00:41:04.085
long range to affect that balance.

00:41:04.885 --> 00:41:09.815
And you're putting your clients on top
of the horse while they're in the long

00:41:09.815 --> 00:41:12.065
range so that they can achieve that.

00:41:12.950 --> 00:41:18.570
oXytocin, uh, and response and the release
of the psoas muscle, is that correct?

00:41:19.660 --> 00:41:22.320
So, that's, that's interesting work.

00:41:23.010 --> 00:41:27.660
Do you also, can you get, can
you get your clients to a point

00:41:27.660 --> 00:41:29.120
where they can also be the one?

00:41:29.925 --> 00:41:33.545
Not just sitting on the horse in the long
range, but maybe doing the long reigning

00:41:33.605 --> 00:41:38.335
or doing the lunging or doing the in
hand work, can you, can you, can you

00:41:38.335 --> 00:41:39.755
make them part of the team in that way?

00:41:42.965 --> 00:41:43.445
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

00:41:43.605 --> 00:41:49.765
So I have a couple of girls who are
in their late teens, early twenties,

00:41:50.285 --> 00:41:56.875
and they really are getting interested
in, in in the horse training part.

00:41:56.955 --> 00:42:00.035
So with them yeah, I teach them how to.

00:42:01.080 --> 00:42:05.120
How to launch and how to do a shoulder
Indian hand and how to do a horn.

00:42:05.120 --> 00:42:06.560
She's Indian vet in hand.

00:42:06.570 --> 00:42:10.160
And I tell them what those
movements do for the horse.

00:42:10.780 --> 00:42:14.550
And that really also builds up
their own confidence because

00:42:14.570 --> 00:42:16.360
they are now training a horse.

00:42:16.370 --> 00:42:17.400
How cool is that?

00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:23.620
So, and in the meantime, they're
moving around a lot outside in nature.

00:42:24.090 --> 00:42:28.230
Helping themselves getting a lot
of happy hormones, the oxytocin

00:42:28.910 --> 00:42:34.990
and gaining confidence and
becoming a part of a community

00:42:34.990 --> 00:42:38.505
here that takes care of our horses.

00:42:38.525 --> 00:42:43.425
So I always boost them up like, okay,
thank you for training my horse.

00:42:43.435 --> 00:42:48.135
And now they can do a better job
at helping the small children.

00:42:48.155 --> 00:42:48.655
So,

00:42:48.765 --> 00:42:49.155
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:42:49.735 --> 00:42:50.105
Okay.

00:42:50.105 --> 00:42:53.935
So your, your old can end up
serving your younger clients

00:42:53.935 --> 00:42:55.105
and the horse at the same time.

00:42:59.585 --> 00:43:01.555
Carola Beekmann: That's
what I hope to achieve.

00:43:01.735 --> 00:43:03.245
So now it's still separate.

00:43:03.245 --> 00:43:08.045
They train the horses and the younger
teens come at a separate time, but yeah,

00:43:08.045 --> 00:43:09.885
in the future I could see that happening.

00:43:09.895 --> 00:43:10.125
That's.

00:43:10.805 --> 00:43:14.475
That those two moments will
start to merge together.

00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:21.660
Rupert Isaacson: That's that's
obviously very evolved work to

00:43:21.660 --> 00:43:29.040
bring this old Baroque way of
training maintaining the horse into

00:43:29.040 --> 00:43:30.860
the therapeutic sphere like this.

00:43:32.150 --> 00:43:41.020
What got you to make the shift from,
okay, I'm a dressage person with

00:43:41.030 --> 00:43:42.460
my own background in some trauma.

00:43:42.460 --> 00:43:45.720
I've got this horse that's had
trauma and I've healed this trauma.

00:43:46.610 --> 00:43:47.730
I now.

00:43:48.345 --> 00:43:51.845
Decided to not go off and become
a school principal, but I've been

00:43:51.855 --> 00:43:53.205
working with special needs kids.

00:43:54.105 --> 00:43:56.995
One would think, Oh, no brainer, you
know, to bring all those things together.

00:43:56.995 --> 00:44:00.015
Yet clearly that happened at
a certain point in your life.

00:44:01.065 --> 00:44:04.405
At what point, when did, when,
what you make the decision?

00:44:04.435 --> 00:44:06.085
Okay, I'm going to pull all this together.

00:44:11.235 --> 00:44:20.035
Carola Beekmann: It must have been 2013
or 2014 when within a couple of days one

00:44:20.035 --> 00:44:25.905
neighbor came to me and said, I read this
book, I, I'm got it from the library.

00:44:26.205 --> 00:44:27.145
You would love it.

00:44:28.065 --> 00:44:30.785
And it was The Horseboy, the
Dutch version, of course.

00:44:31.205 --> 00:44:35.225
And then a few days later, another
neighbor came to me and said, I saw a

00:44:35.225 --> 00:44:37.735
documentary, it will blow your mind.

00:44:38.555 --> 00:44:41.005
And again, it was The Horseboy.

00:44:41.045 --> 00:44:44.165
And I was like, okay, this
is two times in one week.

00:44:44.395 --> 00:44:45.415
There's something there.

00:44:46.170 --> 00:44:53.950
And so I read the book and couldn't get
my hands on, on the documentary, but okay.

00:44:53.950 --> 00:45:02.460
I saw a little clip on YouTube and and
because I was already in education,

00:45:02.600 --> 00:45:09.680
really working on the special needs side
of the spectrum, um, and seeing more

00:45:09.680 --> 00:45:12.720
and more kids just not fitting in the.

00:45:13.490 --> 00:45:19.120
Normal schools, um, and
my big passion for horses.

00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.980
And then, well, I read about this guy.

00:45:22.100 --> 00:45:27.100
His name is Rupert Isaacson and
he is eating children on a horse.

00:45:27.150 --> 00:45:28.230
And I was like, okay.

00:45:28.815 --> 00:45:33.515
And then my dressage mentor at the
time came to Texas where Rupert was

00:45:33.515 --> 00:45:37.365
at the moment and did a clinic there
and they did a webinar together,

00:45:37.435 --> 00:45:39.995
like reaching out to the community.

00:45:40.075 --> 00:45:40.605
Okay.

00:45:40.615 --> 00:45:42.255
If you love training horses.

00:45:42.670 --> 00:45:45.450
You love special needs
kids, come and join us.

00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:50.960
And then I I sent an email
and I heard nothing back.

00:45:51.070 --> 00:45:53.500
And I sent another email
and I heard nothing back.

00:45:53.560 --> 00:45:57.510
And then I went to the Facebook
page and sent a message there.

00:45:57.510 --> 00:46:01.410
And then I got an answer like,
we've been emailing you but

00:46:01.590 --> 00:46:03.100
you didn't get back to us.

00:46:03.100 --> 00:46:03.920
Like, okay, so.

00:46:04.255 --> 00:46:07.645
This really took some
tenacity to get together.

00:46:07.775 --> 00:46:11.015
I didn't want to give up and
obviously you didn't either.

00:46:11.025 --> 00:46:17.285
So,   and then we met basically
at a horse training event in

00:46:17.315 --> 00:46:22.485
Amsterdam and you did a demo there
for horseboy one and my colleagues.

00:46:22.745 --> 00:46:25.125
I was already an
instructor in that program.

00:46:25.205 --> 00:46:26.965
And my colleagues said, this is.

00:46:27.375 --> 00:46:28.295
This is your niche.

00:46:28.345 --> 00:46:33.905
You, you need to talk to this
guy because this is totally you.

00:46:34.015 --> 00:46:37.185
And I was not as brave
back then, but I did it.

00:46:37.335 --> 00:46:41.865
They pushed me towards you and we
had a chat and yeah, then everything

00:46:41.875 --> 00:46:43.915
started to evolve from there.

00:46:44.405 --> 00:46:49.225
I remember the, one of the first
things you asked me, like, can you

00:46:49.225 --> 00:46:50.655
arrange my book tour next year?

00:46:51.405 --> 00:46:54.605
Because your second book
came out in the Netherlands.

00:46:54.655 --> 00:46:55.965
So, and I said, how are you?

00:46:57.155 --> 00:47:00.945
Having no idea what that meant,
but I was ready to jump in.

00:47:02.175 --> 00:47:08.595
So yeah, then I went to
Texas, I think early 2015.

00:47:09.145 --> 00:47:11.545
And yeah, I did all the
training upside down.

00:47:11.585 --> 00:47:14.205
So I started with horseboy
five, which is the camps.

00:47:15.155 --> 00:47:20.035
And you told me later on, that was a
big test because I arrived and you said,

00:47:20.035 --> 00:47:22.515
okay, dump your big suitcase in a corner.

00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:24.060
Pick your small suitcase.

00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:26.110
We're going on a camp in about two hours.

00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:31.280
And you told me later on, like, okay,
that is a test because if people start

00:47:31.300 --> 00:47:37.020
to push back and say, no, I need to do
worse by one and then two and then, and

00:47:37.020 --> 00:47:41.320
then you would have sent me back to the
airport, but yeah, I rolled with it.

00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:44.220
So, I got to stay, which
I'm very grateful for.

00:47:47.970 --> 00:47:48.600
Us too.

00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:49.910
Rupert Isaacson: So
that's how it all started.

00:47:50.040 --> 00:47:50.410
Right.

00:47:50.430 --> 00:47:55.340
The, the, the, the, the, the question
though, in my mind is it's a brave step,

00:47:55.370 --> 00:47:59.560
you know, to say, okay, I'm going to
switch careers and I'm going to switch

00:47:59.560 --> 00:48:08.360
careers on a act of faith, um, to do
something that's quite difficult to

00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:12.290
do in a freelance way, self employed.

00:48:13.350 --> 00:48:15.750
After you've been, you know, employed
through the school system, you've

00:48:15.750 --> 00:48:20.100
had a paycheck, you've had a, you
know, and, and suddenly no, that's a

00:48:20.100 --> 00:48:24.860
completely, completely different way
to, to begin to make one's livelihood.

00:48:24.870 --> 00:48:28.340
Because you know, one of the things
one often sees is that, you know, that,

00:48:28.340 --> 00:48:32.630
that it's a temperament thing that some
people are very, very well suited to a

00:48:32.630 --> 00:48:34.700
sort of entrepreneurial or, or sort of.

00:48:34.885 --> 00:48:39.615
Freelancing pioneering sort of
way of making a living and other

00:48:39.615 --> 00:48:43.385
people absolutely are not and need
that security and but there's,

00:48:43.515 --> 00:48:45.745
you know, both are equally valid.

00:48:46.695 --> 00:48:51.215
What made you take that
leap of faith that you felt?

00:48:51.225 --> 00:48:54.785
Yeah, yeah, I can make this work after
you've been in the school system.

00:48:54.955 --> 00:48:56.025
You'd had a paycheck.

00:48:56.035 --> 00:48:57.135
You'd had that safety net.

00:48:57.425 --> 00:48:58.985
What made you abandon that safety net?

00:49:01.605 --> 00:49:02.905
Carola Beekmann: Well, I did it gradually.

00:49:03.295 --> 00:49:09.785
I, I started to cut back my school
days and, and on the other side,

00:49:09.785 --> 00:49:11.515
build up my, my own business.

00:49:11.525 --> 00:49:13.705
So I did it in a safe way.

00:49:13.735 --> 00:49:16.775
And, and I don't know how it is
in all the other countries, but in

00:49:16.775 --> 00:49:18.965
the Netherlands, we have a constant

00:49:22.165 --> 00:49:22.975
How do you say that?

00:49:23.275 --> 00:49:24.725
Lack of teachers.

00:49:25.175 --> 00:49:29.795
So I would, I could always
fall back, be a teacher again.

00:49:29.805 --> 00:49:37.415
So for me, that risk didn't feel as big
as for some others, it could be because,

00:49:37.415 --> 00:49:38.665
you know, I would always have a job.

00:49:38.895 --> 00:49:42.405
They would, they are always in
need of teachers and especially

00:49:43.045 --> 00:49:46.355
well, with my experience and
with a special needs component.

00:49:46.820 --> 00:49:50.180
If I say today I would like
to work in a school again, I

00:49:50.180 --> 00:49:52.050
think I will have 10 job offers.

00:49:52.080 --> 00:49:56.300
So,  for me, it felt safe enough.

00:49:56.890 --> 00:50:00.570
And on the other side, my
husband has paycheck every month.

00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:05.730
So, yeah, we, we felt like
we could, we could do this.

00:50:06.670 --> 00:50:11.390
And yeah, there are months,
years that I don't get to buy

00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:12.820
any new clothes for myself.

00:50:12.850 --> 00:50:17.130
But luckily I'm not a, I'm not
a very needy person in that way.

00:50:17.130 --> 00:50:23.660
So I, so I don't get to spend a lot
of money on me, but yeah, that's fine.

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:25.570
I love to be in service.

00:50:26.555 --> 00:50:30.415
And not very high
maintenance myself, luckily.

00:50:31.005 --> 00:50:32.165
So yeah.

00:50:33.865 --> 00:50:39.815
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you dive
in you start your therapeutic program.

00:50:42.245 --> 00:50:45.435
Tell us about the, how you got
that off the ground because a lot

00:50:45.435 --> 00:50:49.405
of people will be listening who
are considering making that leap.

00:50:50.335 --> 00:50:54.855
What were the first, tell us the
stories of those, those first

00:50:54.855 --> 00:50:59.115
years, who were the clients that
Jump out at you in your memory.

00:50:59.135 --> 00:51:04.715
What, what was the type of client you
were mainly finding yourself meeting?

00:51:04.715 --> 00:51:09.625
And what were the challenges both in
terms of the organization of it and in

00:51:09.625 --> 00:51:14.875
terms of your horses and that sort of
thing that what the unexpected stuff.

00:51:14.875 --> 00:51:20.395
So, you know, who did you find in front of
you as a client, how did you get it going?

00:51:20.435 --> 00:51:22.415
And yeah, what were the challenges?

00:51:22.415 --> 00:51:23.125
Carola Beekmann: How did you meet them?

00:51:27.135 --> 00:51:27.695
Yeah.

00:51:27.805 --> 00:51:29.815
So, in the early days.

00:51:30.915 --> 00:51:36.865
Most of my clients were either very
young and non verbal kids with autism.

00:51:38.375 --> 00:51:44.145
aNd for me, the biggest challenge,
the very biggest challenge was to

00:51:44.145 --> 00:51:48.285
get over myself and start asking
for help because this you can't

00:51:48.345 --> 00:51:50.655
do by yourself, it's not possible.

00:51:50.805 --> 00:51:59.135
So, it took me a long time to, to, Get my
act together and start asking for help.

00:51:59.165 --> 00:52:03.135
And the funny thing is I posted
something on Facebook, like, okay,

00:52:03.135 --> 00:52:07.115
I'm going to do this who would like
to, to volunteer here and there.

00:52:07.145 --> 00:52:13.955
And I got like within an hour, six
horsey people I knew from back way

00:52:14.155 --> 00:52:18.395
when, or from now that says, yes,
I would like to help with that.

00:52:19.055 --> 00:52:23.585
So, that was a big challenge
for me because I was so used

00:52:23.585 --> 00:52:26.525
to doing everything by myself.

00:52:27.265 --> 00:52:31.735
so That was a big, uh, thing for me.

00:52:32.735 --> 00:52:38.385
So yeah, the, the challenges of these
first couple of kids yeah, becoming

00:52:38.395 --> 00:52:44.115
verbal which is it's still miraculous
every time you see it happen.

00:52:45.085 --> 00:52:47.165
Yeah, luckily we never get used to that.

00:52:47.245 --> 00:52:49.605
It never becomes normal
because it is special.

00:52:50.515 --> 00:52:51.611
wHere was the

00:52:51.611 --> 00:52:54.765
Rupert Isaacson: first
time you met the horse?

00:52:55.155 --> 00:52:57.895
Talk to us about that, that moment
and what, what, what, what was

00:52:57.895 --> 00:52:59.345
happening with that child, that story?

00:53:00.110 --> 00:53:05.110
Carola Beekmann: He was
a boy the very first one.

00:53:05.875 --> 00:53:07.785
His parents called him a runner.

00:53:07.835 --> 00:53:11.465
They were actually afraid to,
to come because he would just

00:53:11.645 --> 00:53:14.115
run away everywhere in any way.

00:53:14.115 --> 00:53:16.065
He was obsessed with traffic signs.

00:53:16.845 --> 00:53:21.815
So if there was a traffic sign somewhere
around, he just runs towards it.

00:53:21.825 --> 00:53:24.515
So, and he had such a.

00:53:25.765 --> 00:53:31.505
A tunnel vision for that that the
first session we did in, in the

00:53:31.505 --> 00:53:34.905
indoor arena with with people.

00:53:34.925 --> 00:53:42.725
So there was nothing to crawl through
also to, to keep the parents assured

00:53:42.735 --> 00:53:44.795
that that kid could not escape.

00:53:45.355 --> 00:53:50.845
And but the, the funny thing was in
that session, I had my horse in there.

00:53:52.125 --> 00:53:57.225
jUst standing there with some
hay and he just did not see her.

00:53:57.875 --> 00:54:01.875
And well, you know, my mayor,
she's white and she's got spots and

00:54:01.875 --> 00:54:04.115
like, the Pippi Longstocking horse.

00:54:04.395 --> 00:54:06.285
So you really can't miss her.

00:54:06.885 --> 00:54:09.075
But he didn't see her.

00:54:09.085 --> 00:54:11.145
That was for me, mind blowing.

00:54:11.705 --> 00:54:17.245
And then the second time I put the
traffic sign on her halter, like the

00:54:17.255 --> 00:54:19.625
triangle sign says beware of horses.

00:54:20.345 --> 00:54:21.335
And then he saw her.

00:54:22.165 --> 00:54:27.995
And then he started to,
to interact with with her.

00:54:28.295 --> 00:54:33.265
That was, um, a moment I will
never forget, like, okay, how

00:54:33.295 --> 00:54:35.665
can you not see a complete horse?

00:54:36.245 --> 00:54:37.065
But he, yeah.

00:54:37.575 --> 00:54:43.655
So, and then He was not
okay with riding with me.

00:54:43.655 --> 00:54:47.485
So I put him in the long lines on,
in the saddle together with his dad.

00:54:47.975 --> 00:54:50.435
And we just rode through the forest.

00:54:50.505 --> 00:54:52.585
We had traffic signs with us.

00:54:53.145 --> 00:54:57.125
For example, the sign for the
blue sign for going left or right.

00:54:57.145 --> 00:54:59.535
And we presented to them, to him.

00:54:59.605 --> 00:55:02.285
And so he could make choices
like, would you like to go left

00:55:02.285 --> 00:55:03.835
or right here or straight ahead?

00:55:04.405 --> 00:55:11.125
And first he started pointing and later
on he would, would say the words like

00:55:11.125 --> 00:55:16.515
left, right, or he would, I would ask him
questions like, would you like to walk?

00:55:16.555 --> 00:55:17.365
Would you like to trot?

00:55:17.665 --> 00:55:20.185
And then he would say trot,
and then we trotted a bit.

00:55:20.815 --> 00:55:27.785
So through those choices we gave him
with the traffic signs we, we gave, he

00:55:27.785 --> 00:55:33.190
started to, to use his first words and
also Another very important traffic

00:55:33.190 --> 00:55:37.360
sign for him was the stop sign because,
well, we needed to make it safe if

00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:43.340
you would go, uh, on a walkabout
around his house, his parents needed

00:55:43.570 --> 00:55:48.800
him to stop, you know, at the curb
before just running in front of a car.

00:55:49.270 --> 00:55:54.280
So we used a traffic sign to
specifically teach him how to stop.

00:55:54.280 --> 00:56:03.160
So we would just hold up the sign and
yell like, and because of that sign, he

00:56:03.160 --> 00:56:05.860
would he would go with it without a sign.

00:56:05.860 --> 00:56:12.370
You could stop for, well, as long as you
want, but because of that sign, he he

00:56:12.370 --> 00:56:14.340
he was into it and we got to teach it.

00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:19.910
And, um, Later on, his parents
could make a sequence of

00:56:19.930 --> 00:56:22.680
traffic signs around their home.

00:56:23.430 --> 00:56:26.320
beCause what happened is because
he was so into the traffic

00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:28.130
signs, he would just go, go, go.

00:56:28.150 --> 00:56:29.370
And then he was tired.

00:56:29.995 --> 00:56:31.815
And then they had to carry
him all the way home.

00:56:31.865 --> 00:56:36.245
So they could make routes
in their neighborhood that

00:56:36.275 --> 00:56:37.685
wouldn't be too long for him.

00:56:38.265 --> 00:56:39.715
And he would end up at home.

00:56:39.715 --> 00:56:43.425
So they make like treasure hunts
for, for signs, but they knew

00:56:43.425 --> 00:56:45.065
exactly which route it was.

00:56:45.075 --> 00:56:45.895
So, yeah.

00:56:47.285 --> 00:56:51.275
And then he involved to makes off cars.

00:56:51.505 --> 00:56:57.585
So, and in the place I was working, it
was a riding school and a camping site.

00:56:57.585 --> 00:57:01.105
So we had a lot of cars also on site.

00:57:01.105 --> 00:57:06.805
So, we would start talking about all
these makes and models of cars and

00:57:06.905 --> 00:57:10.825
reading the the plate numbers of the car.

00:57:10.825 --> 00:57:13.595
So yeah, that's how we
got him to, to speak.

00:57:14.305 --> 00:57:17.615
And also he was very into
Mickey Mouse clubhouse.

00:57:17.625 --> 00:57:17.945
So.

00:57:18.365 --> 00:57:23.885
He sang those songs endlessly and
yeah, that's helped him become verbal.

00:57:25.225 --> 00:57:27.195
Rupert Isaacson: So you really
tailored it to his interests.

00:57:27.985 --> 00:57:31.785
That's what's interesting too,
is you said, you know, when he

00:57:31.785 --> 00:57:34.475
didn't, he didn't, he only wanted
to get up there with his dad.

00:57:35.555 --> 00:57:38.075
That's obviously quite an unusual
approach for a lot of therapeutic

00:57:38.075 --> 00:57:41.910
places because, you know, they wouldn't,
They wouldn't put a parent up you

00:57:41.910 --> 00:57:43.680
know, to make it safe for a child.

00:57:43.730 --> 00:57:48.550
And then you, you use the long reins
to sort of basically create an equine

00:57:48.550 --> 00:57:52.410
environment for the father and the son.

00:57:52.460 --> 00:57:52.770
Yeah.

00:57:54.550 --> 00:57:54.800
That's

00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:55.060
Carola Beekmann: wonderful.

00:57:55.060 --> 00:57:55.170
Yeah.

00:57:55.170 --> 00:58:01.640
So first we, we just, yeah, first we just
put up the dads and we just walk around

00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:06.730
the play area at the campsite and the
dad would be on top and the kid would be.

00:58:07.345 --> 00:58:09.275
I don't know on the
trampoline or something.

00:58:09.485 --> 00:58:15.255
And then we stopped next to
the trampoline and exactly.

00:58:15.535 --> 00:58:21.665
So show that, so that show that dad
enjoys it and that horses can be ridden.

00:58:21.725 --> 00:58:24.075
You know, if you've never
been around a horse, who knows

00:58:24.075 --> 00:58:25.095
you can sit on top of them.

00:58:25.625 --> 00:58:30.945
So, and then at one moment we stopped
like straight next to the trampoline and

00:58:30.945 --> 00:58:33.485
the dad invited him to give him a hug.

00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:36.250
And there he was, he
was sitting on top too.

00:58:36.850 --> 00:58:39.050
And it was first for a couple of seconds.

00:58:39.770 --> 00:58:41.420
He started to wiggle a bit.

00:58:41.420 --> 00:58:43.200
So, okay, put him back on the trampoline.

00:58:43.200 --> 00:58:49.300
And then the next time he would just
sit and we could just, and we went

00:58:49.300 --> 00:58:51.440
off to into the forest and yeah.

00:58:52.530 --> 00:58:57.590
You could actually see his all
expression in his face change

00:58:57.720 --> 00:58:59.170
as soon as he was on the horse.

00:59:00.060 --> 00:59:05.510
It was actually a, a former school
colleague of mine that came to, to

00:59:05.510 --> 00:59:07.350
volunteer and watch it one time.

00:59:07.870 --> 00:59:11.050
She was a kindergarten teacher
since forever and she said.

00:59:12.290 --> 00:59:16.140
This kid just totally changed when
he sat on a horse like, okay, cool,

00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:19.850
because you know, I walked behind,
so I see the back of the deck.

00:59:20.930 --> 00:59:22.260
That's cool information.

00:59:24.310 --> 00:59:28.190
So yeah, it's it's one of
those things that yeah.

00:59:28.220 --> 00:59:34.300
And another story is another young
kid who started talking with me

00:59:34.360 --> 00:59:38.400
and mom told his speech therapist
and she didn't believe it because.

00:59:39.735 --> 00:59:41.735
At speech therapy, he did not talk.

00:59:42.745 --> 00:59:47.795
So I said to mom, bring the speech
therapist with you next Saturday.

00:59:47.815 --> 00:59:48.085
And.

00:59:48.650 --> 00:59:54.540
Well, the brave lady did and the cool
outcome was that from that moment on,

00:59:54.600 --> 01:00:00.100
she didn't do her speech therapy in her
office, but in the playground next door.

01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:02.190
So yeah, she, she,

01:00:02.190 --> 01:00:04.780
Rupert Isaacson: she actually
moved outside with the kid

01:00:04.780 --> 01:00:05.970
after watching you work.

01:00:06.520 --> 01:00:07.320
Carola Beekmann: Exactly.

01:00:07.620 --> 01:00:09.240
So she, she.

01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:15.560
Changed her whole approach with him
and hopefully other kids after him.

01:00:15.560 --> 01:00:16.545
That's usual, that's unusual.

01:00:16.620 --> 01:00:17.310
So yeah.

01:00:17.315 --> 01:00:20.480
So yeah, love that.

01:00:20.495 --> 01:00:26.575
And, and it was, it was cool that
she, he came out to, in her own time.

01:00:27.355 --> 01:00:30.925
Without anybody paying her to
come and see what we were doing.

01:00:31.415 --> 01:00:36.035
So yeah, that was that was
another cool experience.

01:00:36.565 --> 01:00:40.385
And the other, one of the early
girls that really sticks in my

01:00:40.385 --> 01:00:42.885
mind is was an eight year old one.

01:00:43.545 --> 01:00:51.700
And They couldn't take perspective,
so she had high levels of anxiety

01:00:51.820 --> 01:00:56.910
for example, when her mom left the
room, she, when her mom was out of

01:00:56.910 --> 01:00:59.020
sight, she thought mom was dead.

01:00:59.710 --> 01:01:04.980
So usually around two and a half,
three years, kids start to understand

01:01:04.990 --> 01:01:09.410
that if they can't see something,
it's still there like peekaboo

01:01:09.930 --> 01:01:11.800
games like that hide and seek.

01:01:12.815 --> 01:01:16.955
bUt this girl never got
through that milestone.

01:01:18.215 --> 01:01:23.465
So, during the intake and all the
questions we asked beforehand, we kind

01:01:23.465 --> 01:01:25.635
of figured that out together with mom.

01:01:26.485 --> 01:01:32.185
So we started to do all the games
and all our activities around

01:01:32.235 --> 01:01:35.845
perspective taken, and it was so cool.

01:01:35.905 --> 01:01:39.235
It was actually filmed because
a colleague of mine was doing

01:01:39.235 --> 01:01:40.805
her thesis on horseboy method.

01:01:41.495 --> 01:01:47.995
So she filmed every session and
during session three, halfway the

01:01:47.995 --> 01:01:53.205
girl was making a drawing and she
turned it around and showed her dad.

01:01:53.355 --> 01:01:55.185
He said, okay, dad, look, that's you.

01:01:55.215 --> 01:01:57.015
And that is me.

01:01:57.025 --> 01:01:57.845
And that's mom.

01:01:57.845 --> 01:02:00.855
And that's my little
brother and my colleague.

01:02:00.855 --> 01:02:05.815
And I, I remember so clearly I,
she was Filming over my shoulder.

01:02:05.815 --> 01:02:07.875
I looked at her, she
looked at me like, wow.

01:02:08.265 --> 01:02:09.245
She got it now.

01:02:09.275 --> 01:02:15.035
She, she now understands that, um, if
you want to show something to somebody,

01:02:15.075 --> 01:02:16.675
you need to take, turn it around.

01:02:16.675 --> 01:02:18.555
But of course it's much bigger than that.

01:02:19.385 --> 01:02:24.985
Because mom told us that she could leave
the room now and she could take the walkie

01:02:24.985 --> 01:02:29.825
talkie up to the attic and do some laundry
while the kid was downstairs playing.

01:02:29.855 --> 01:02:32.230
And that was impossible.

01:02:32.290 --> 01:02:33.550
They went to the cinema.

01:02:33.910 --> 01:02:37.880
The girl just walked away from her,
went to the big poster and start

01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:39.860
talking to another girl about the movie.

01:02:40.630 --> 01:02:43.340
She, yeah, it changed their whole world.

01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:50.040
Just that working on that one milestone
yeah, was huge for that family.

01:02:50.130 --> 01:02:56.190
So, being a part of those changes
for families, changes for the better,

01:02:56.750 --> 01:02:58.600
it's what makes it all worthwhile.

01:02:58.935 --> 01:03:01.985
You know, scooping poo in
the mud and all of that.

01:03:02.285 --> 01:03:02.985
We know all about that.

01:03:03.015 --> 01:03:04.415
I do it happily.

01:03:04.505 --> 01:03:05.145
Swimming in poo.

01:03:05.145 --> 01:03:05.395
Yes.

01:03:05.405 --> 01:03:06.235
Rupert Isaacson: For those moments.

01:03:06.235 --> 01:03:08.410
In Germany at the moment.

01:03:08.410 --> 01:03:08.845
Yeah.

01:03:08.845 --> 01:03:11.670
What, what, there's a couple
of things that, that stand out.

01:03:11.670 --> 01:03:15.960
So you, you, you casually mentioned that
first day, Oh, we just, you know, long

01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:17.330
lined the horse up to the trampoline.

01:03:17.690 --> 01:03:20.390
And of course the kid must've been
bouncing pretty hard on the trampoline.

01:03:20.790 --> 01:03:21.345
Mm hmm.

01:03:21.535 --> 01:03:25.025
And you, you casually got there
with your horse and that means you

01:03:25.025 --> 01:03:27.995
must have done quite a lot of bomb
proofing training with your horse.

01:03:27.995 --> 01:03:30.155
That, that's, that you must
have done a lot of this.

01:03:32.985 --> 01:03:33.475
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:03:34.545 --> 01:03:40.875
So everything we think could happen
during what we call play dates we train.

01:03:41.335 --> 01:03:46.945
And there was one time a volunteer
surprised me and it bit me in the butt.

01:03:47.465 --> 01:03:50.645
As she pulled out a soap bubble thingy.

01:03:51.325 --> 01:03:56.045
And starting to blow soap bubbles,
which my horse had never seen before.

01:03:56.725 --> 01:04:01.165
Luckily it was my daughter on the horse
and not a client, but my horse spooked.

01:04:01.675 --> 01:04:03.985
So, that was another lesson.

01:04:04.865 --> 01:04:05.745
lIke, okay.

01:04:05.855 --> 01:04:12.225
If you have volunteers, make sure that
they ask you before they do because

01:04:12.225 --> 01:04:14.835
you know, you need to have checked
that your horse is okay with it.

01:04:14.885 --> 01:04:16.955
So, yeah, they need to be brave.

01:04:17.580 --> 01:04:23.770
And my mare is actually not the bravest
but she is trained to be okay with

01:04:23.790 --> 01:04:29.720
a lot but,  yeah for, in that case,
I like the alpha horses the best for

01:04:29.720 --> 01:04:34.330
this work because they are brave and
used to problem solving and they're

01:04:35.150 --> 01:04:39.640
usually okay with, with new things.

01:04:39.730 --> 01:04:42.040
So you show them and
they're like, what's this?

01:04:42.090 --> 01:04:42.830
Oh, okay.

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:46.730
So yeah, that's the kind of
horse I prefer to work with.

01:04:46.820 --> 01:04:49.070
I have one here now, one out of four.

01:04:50.065 --> 01:04:54.915
hE's a superstar, but you know, with the
others we work too, but you know, I always

01:04:54.915 --> 01:05:03.945
have to, um, be very aware that they you
know, no horses, 100 percent bone proof.

01:05:03.985 --> 01:05:07.735
They don't exist, but you can get
them to a very high level, but,

01:05:08.595 --> 01:05:11.525
um, it takes constant training.

01:05:11.525 --> 01:05:12.105
So I put.

01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:18.230
Weird objects in and around my arena
or, or paddock like,   tarpaulin

01:05:18.230 --> 01:05:20.900
that's just going everywhere.

01:05:22.060 --> 01:05:24.660
What, yeah, whatever I can figure.

01:05:25.130 --> 01:05:29.320
And I do like my leaf blowing
of the arena, right where they

01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:31.230
standing next to it in the paddock.

01:05:31.850 --> 01:05:37.330
So they're all used to
big noises and stuff.

01:05:37.340 --> 01:05:39.940
So Yeah, it takes

01:05:42.750 --> 01:05:43.180
Rupert Isaacson: sorry.

01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:45.300
And you keep that sort
of going all the time.

01:05:45.310 --> 01:05:46.780
Do you have that sort of a constant?

01:05:46.780 --> 01:05:50.700
So they're always exposed to
this sort of thing, the horses.

01:05:51.710 --> 01:05:52.220
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:05:52.470 --> 01:05:59.130
You know, I'm what, what I usually do is
just, I, we do whatever we need to do.

01:05:59.260 --> 01:06:03.170
And we're not like, Oh, we can't do this
because the horses are there without

01:06:03.170 --> 01:06:06.450
the clients, of course, you know, when
the clients are not here, we just do

01:06:06.460 --> 01:06:10.840
the leaf blowing and mowing the lawn
and driving around with a tractor

01:06:10.840 --> 01:06:12.530
and do whatever needs to be done.

01:06:13.750 --> 01:06:14.140
Because.

01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:16.020
You know, they're safe in there.

01:06:16.080 --> 01:06:18.370
And of course we keep our eye on them.

01:06:18.370 --> 01:06:23.840
And when they spook, we give them
some time, but yeah, it's we, we

01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:26.860
treat them like, okay, this is normal.

01:06:27.200 --> 01:06:28.710
We, we are used to this.

01:06:29.380 --> 01:06:34.220
So, and every now and again, I introduce
something new just to keep them flexible

01:06:34.220 --> 01:06:35.890
in their minds like, Oh, what's that?

01:06:36.450 --> 01:06:41.110
And, and you can tell, you know,
one horse just looks at it and go

01:06:41.110 --> 01:06:46.710
sniffle and he's okay with it and the
other one runs away as far as he can.

01:06:47.150 --> 01:06:49.890
And then a few days later, he
goes to meet that new thing.

01:06:49.890 --> 01:06:53.859
So, yeah, but do you find that with bond

01:06:53.859 --> 01:06:57.560
Rupert Isaacson: proofing, you have
to keep it going as a constant.

01:06:57.560 --> 01:07:02.570
I mean, that, that's definitely something
we've found is that when it comes to

01:07:02.570 --> 01:07:07.120
keeping our horses bond proof, we, we
can't assume because they met a red

01:07:07.120 --> 01:07:10.450
umbrella and were okay with it three
months ago that they don't have amnesia

01:07:10.890 --> 01:07:13.180
about that three months afterwards.

01:07:16.805 --> 01:07:17.885
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, very true.

01:07:17.885 --> 01:07:23.765
And, and the, the one upside of me not
having my pasture on my own terrain, but

01:07:23.765 --> 01:07:28.635
I have to walk down the street through
the village is that they see traffic

01:07:28.635 --> 01:07:36.055
twice a day and, you know, it's tractors
big trucks cyclists umbrellas, or when

01:07:36.055 --> 01:07:40.715
a new girl is born, there are pink flags
at the end in the street or when there's

01:07:40.715 --> 01:07:44.480
carnival, you know,   the garbage cans.

01:07:44.490 --> 01:07:48.610
So they see that every day and
we never know what we see, you

01:07:48.610 --> 01:07:52.930
know, some things are always
there and drive by as a surprise.

01:07:53.380 --> 01:07:57.150
So, that's kind of like for
the big stuff, a constant.

01:07:57.835 --> 01:07:58.695
Yeah, right.

01:07:59.115 --> 01:08:01.995
I prefer to call it bravery
training, by the way.

01:08:02.225 --> 01:08:02.645
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:08:02.675 --> 01:08:02.875
Right.

01:08:02.875 --> 01:08:03.565
Absolutely.

01:08:03.625 --> 01:08:05.865
I, I, I think it's a great word.

01:08:06.185 --> 01:08:11.055
It's something which I think isn't
talked about enough with bond proofing,

01:08:11.055 --> 01:08:14.065
bravery training, uh, desensitization.

01:08:14.105 --> 01:08:17.325
People have these different names
for it is that often the, there's

01:08:17.325 --> 01:08:19.585
an assumption, do it once that's it.

01:08:19.985 --> 01:08:23.975
And of course, I found, and I guess
you must have found over the years too,

01:08:23.975 --> 01:08:29.945
is that, no, actually, one needs to
kind of do refreshes fairly regularly.

01:08:31.155 --> 01:08:35.125
Or the horses can decide, no, actually,
I'm scared of that thing I wasn't

01:08:35.125 --> 01:08:36.455
scared of, you know, 10 minutes ago.

01:08:37.165 --> 01:08:38.655
Yeah, very true.

01:08:39.315 --> 01:08:43.265
But, you know, that kind of thoroughness
of training, I think, is something

01:08:44.460 --> 01:08:46.590
unusual within the equine assisted world.

01:08:46.590 --> 01:08:51.030
I think that quite often I've seen people
really working within sort of bubbles.

01:08:51.450 --> 01:08:54.980
And then of course, if something
unforeseen happens, which inevitably

01:08:54.990 --> 01:08:58.720
it's going to at some point, and
particularly if one's working, you know,

01:08:58.720 --> 01:09:05.430
an autistic population or somewhere,
the, the client themselves is going

01:09:05.430 --> 01:09:07.410
to do something pretty unpredictable.

01:09:07.830 --> 01:09:11.700
That then the horse may or
may not be ready for that.

01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:14.900
And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's
a wonderful thing that you've,

01:09:14.980 --> 01:09:17.780
you're covering those bases,
you know, from the get go.

01:09:18.030 --> 01:09:21.880
There was something else which jumped
out to me about that first story.

01:09:22.490 --> 01:09:25.090
So you said, you know, on that
first day that he was in there,

01:09:25.090 --> 01:09:26.190
you had the horse available.

01:09:26.190 --> 01:09:28.620
There's the horse eating
hay there in the arena.

01:09:28.620 --> 01:09:29.450
Okay, there's wool.

01:09:29.450 --> 01:09:32.020
So the kid can't run away from
the arena, but he's running.

01:09:32.530 --> 01:09:35.910
When he wasn't going to interact
with the horse that first

01:09:35.910 --> 01:09:37.480
day, what was your strategy?

01:09:37.640 --> 01:09:42.040
What did you do to get interaction
with him, say, okay, well, if the horse

01:09:42.050 --> 01:09:45.240
isn't going to work, what, what, what
other tricks have I got up my sleeve?

01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:48.080
What did you do to establish relationship?

01:09:50.830 --> 01:09:51.310
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:09:51.360 --> 01:09:53.650
Well, it started with the preparation.

01:09:53.650 --> 01:09:56.651
We didn't have an empty arena.

01:09:56.651 --> 01:10:02.154
So with the jumping poles and
cones and traffic signs we

01:10:02.154 --> 01:10:04.155
made streets and junctions.

01:10:04.815 --> 01:10:11.865
So when he came in and he saw that
play area, he was instantly in play.

01:10:11.985 --> 01:10:16.785
So all we had to do is shadow
him and, and verbalize what he

01:10:16.785 --> 01:10:18.815
was doing and what he was seeing.

01:10:20.365 --> 01:10:22.145
So you set up the street

01:10:22.625 --> 01:10:25.025
Rupert Isaacson: in the
arena before he went in?

01:10:27.125 --> 01:10:27.595
Yes,

01:10:28.185 --> 01:10:28.715
Carola Beekmann: exactly.

01:10:28.725 --> 01:10:31.355
So we, we tailor make the environment.

01:10:32.940 --> 01:10:36.470
as part of the, the preparation
before the kids come.

01:10:36.470 --> 01:10:41.350
So when they come, they come in
this place where they love to be.

01:10:42.140 --> 01:10:44.940
And it can be anything and everything.

01:10:44.980 --> 01:10:46.670
It depends on their interest.

01:10:47.870 --> 01:10:51.030
Rupert Isaacson: So do you find out
from the family before they come

01:10:51.030 --> 01:10:55.340
out what the passionate interests or
obsessive interests of the child are?

01:10:55.380 --> 01:10:55.820
Yes.

01:10:56.720 --> 01:11:01.490
Carola Beekmann: So yeah, we, we
do an intake with the parents.

01:11:01.500 --> 01:11:08.010
So we have a very extensive chat with
them where we make notes where we

01:11:08.020 --> 01:11:09.810
want to know anything and everything.

01:11:09.810 --> 01:11:11.250
Like what does he like?

01:11:11.350 --> 01:11:14.280
What does he what is he afraid of?

01:11:14.590 --> 01:11:18.040
Which sensory triggers are nice for him?

01:11:18.110 --> 01:11:19.100
Which one are not.

01:11:19.860 --> 01:11:24.450
And the main thing is of course,
the two things is what are his

01:11:24.450 --> 01:11:25.970
interests and what are the goals?

01:11:25.990 --> 01:11:28.030
Because we always use like.

01:11:28.725 --> 01:11:33.345
The interest as a sort of
wrapping paper around the goals.

01:11:33.675 --> 01:11:36.305
So the kids never know that
they were working on goals.

01:11:36.305 --> 01:11:39.745
They just lay their favorite thing.

01:11:40.175 --> 01:11:44.975
And then in the meantime we, as adults
work on the goals specific to that child.

01:11:45.765 --> 01:11:52.005
So yeah, the kids come to play and there
are horses and you can sit or lie on

01:11:52.015 --> 01:11:53.585
top of horses and you can write them.

01:11:54.130 --> 01:12:00.930
But not necessarily, so a lot of
it is also playing outside, having

01:12:00.930 --> 01:12:05.570
a, a safe and natural environment
where the kids can explore and

01:12:06.220 --> 01:12:08.290
do whatever they like to do best.

01:12:08.860 --> 01:12:09.090
No,

01:12:09.750 --> 01:12:11.060
Rupert Isaacson: they're not
going to interact with the horse.

01:12:11.060 --> 01:12:13.150
If they don't want to get on
the horse, you have plenty of

01:12:13.150 --> 01:12:14.190
other stuff for them to do.

01:12:16.530 --> 01:12:17.000
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:12:17.070 --> 01:12:17.310
Yeah.

01:12:17.700 --> 01:12:19.570
We have swings, trampolines.

01:12:20.165 --> 01:12:26.975
We have a pond so they can fish they, you
know, yeah all sorts of play equipment.

01:12:26.985 --> 01:12:30.735
So, yeah, they don't have
to interact with the horses.

01:12:30.745 --> 01:12:31.805
They are available.

01:12:32.425 --> 01:12:35.495
But if they are into other
stuff, then that's what we'll do.

01:12:36.415 --> 01:12:38.135
So I have like two brothers.

01:12:38.135 --> 01:12:40.275
They, they, they love to play soccer.

01:12:40.295 --> 01:12:41.315
So we start with that.

01:12:41.315 --> 01:12:45.475
And then I introduce a big yoga ball
and then we play soccer with the horse.

01:12:45.765 --> 01:12:47.465
But if they're not into that, yeah.

01:12:47.495 --> 01:12:47.885
Okay.

01:12:51.165 --> 01:12:54.975
Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's, that's
really unusual because you're talking

01:12:54.975 --> 01:12:59.915
about a level of training through the
in hand work, the long reining, the

01:12:59.915 --> 01:13:03.075
lunging, as you've said, that the,
the bond proofing or bravery training,

01:13:03.075 --> 01:13:08.805
as you call it That requires a bit
of an obsessive, you know, horseman's

01:13:09.865 --> 01:13:13.815
approach and then you're willing
to abandon the horse in a moment if

01:13:13.815 --> 01:13:15.205
that's not what the kid wants to do.

01:13:15.205 --> 01:13:18.695
And you've got other things
to stimulate the learn.

01:13:20.115 --> 01:13:26.010
I think that they're remarkable
because As you and I know, I mean,

01:13:26.030 --> 01:13:29.050
most of us who are in the horse
world, I'm, I'm guilty as charged.

01:13:29.390 --> 01:13:35.160
With such horse obsessives, it's hard for
us to necessarily move away from the horse

01:13:35.180 --> 01:13:37.170
if, if that's not where the person is.

01:13:37.570 --> 01:13:44.300
And to be able to put that kind of
level of Detail into the preparation of

01:13:44.300 --> 01:13:46.810
the horse yet not be attached to them.

01:13:47.300 --> 01:13:49.280
Interacting with the horses is unusual.

01:13:49.530 --> 01:13:54.660
Do you find that it's easy to train
your volunteers and your, your

01:13:54.690 --> 01:13:57.570
colleagues in this because they
presumably also have to have the

01:13:57.570 --> 01:13:59.430
same approach to the horse training?

01:13:59.580 --> 01:14:02.465
Or do you find that this is
something that you have to.

01:14:02.685 --> 01:14:08.705
teach horse people a skill really to,
to not be so attached to the horse

01:14:08.725 --> 01:14:12.185
while at the same time being really
attached to the paradoxically to

01:14:12.355 --> 01:14:13.905
the, to the preparation of the horse.

01:14:14.055 --> 01:14:15.775
Do you find this as a
hard concept for people?

01:14:20.315 --> 01:14:25.405
Carola Beekmann: Well, part of
when they start, I always introduce

01:14:25.405 --> 01:14:29.275
them to the eight guidelines of
movement method and horseboy method.

01:14:29.275 --> 01:14:33.365
So, you know, as a main
thing, follow the child.

01:14:34.340 --> 01:14:38.620
I always say it as soon as the
child comes through the gates,

01:14:39.390 --> 01:14:42.560
they they do what they do.

01:14:43.070 --> 01:14:49.440
And, and we interact with them and we see
what they're doing and we play with them.

01:14:50.070 --> 01:14:56.500
And you know, we, we try to set
this up so they will engage in

01:14:56.820 --> 01:15:02.220
activities we have, um, thought
of could help with their goals.

01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:10.650
But the kid is in charge and that for
some is a very new concept because

01:15:11.310 --> 01:15:15.540
well, especially in the Netherlands,
there are many rules and regulations

01:15:15.590 --> 01:15:21.650
and, well, school system generally
around the world is, okay, teacher

01:15:21.650 --> 01:15:23.770
tells you what to do and you do it.

01:15:23.990 --> 01:15:26.770
Or at home, parents tells
you what to do and you do it.

01:15:26.860 --> 01:15:28.890
And so to totally reverse that.

01:15:29.650 --> 01:15:35.240
But I find it that because you
totally reverse it, uh, they get it.

01:15:36.290 --> 01:15:38.150
So we don't do something in between.

01:15:38.320 --> 01:15:41.890
We just say, okay, it's
in charge and we follow.

01:15:42.730 --> 01:15:47.060
And I always get them to
observe one or two sessions.

01:15:47.090 --> 01:15:50.430
And then I say, okay now you
can be a more active part.

01:15:50.430 --> 01:15:52.135
And I always, always.

01:15:52.915 --> 01:15:56.885
As well, say when the kid starts to
approach you, of course, you can interact.

01:15:56.885 --> 01:16:01.155
You can't stay there and say,
okay, I'm only a blobservant today.

01:16:01.645 --> 01:16:06.915
So if they seek you out for
interaction, you interact and I will

01:16:06.985 --> 01:16:08.505
be there and guide you through it.

01:16:09.665 --> 01:16:15.525
So yeah, to, to totally reverse
that concept of being a leader.

01:16:17.205 --> 01:16:21.735
Normally, but now if that leadership
to the child yeah, they usually get it

01:16:21.795 --> 01:16:28.935
and also because they, they see the joy
and, and of the children and they see

01:16:29.065 --> 01:16:33.705
it working, you know, you see that it
works, so you don't have to question it.

01:16:35.175 --> 01:16:40.045
Rupert Isaacson: And the involvement
of parents and family and other other

01:16:40.095 --> 01:16:43.485
therapists is again, quite unusual.

01:16:43.485 --> 01:16:47.015
I mean, a lot of the places I've,
I've gone to watching work is

01:16:47.025 --> 01:16:48.235
everything's kept very separate.

01:16:48.405 --> 01:16:50.975
When you're integrating like
that obviously I can totally

01:16:50.975 --> 01:16:53.245
see why that would work so well.

01:16:53.795 --> 01:16:55.985
Do you ever find that it can be tricky?

01:16:55.985 --> 01:17:00.395
Like do you find sometimes that a
parent might get pushy with the kid

01:17:00.395 --> 01:17:01.695
saying, Oh, you know, do what Mr.

01:17:01.695 --> 01:17:03.105
Corolla is saying, or.

01:17:03.620 --> 01:17:06.670
A therapist might, another therapist
might say, no, no, that's wrong.

01:17:06.730 --> 01:17:07.560
We should do it my way.

01:17:07.740 --> 01:17:11.880
Or do you, do you find on the whole,
actually people integrate really well?

01:17:11.890 --> 01:17:14.650
What, what's been your experience,
positive and negative with that?

01:17:17.540 --> 01:17:22.380
Carola Beekmann: Well, the positive is
because I, I explained the, the eight

01:17:22.410 --> 01:17:27.650
guidelines as well as to the parents,
you know, also of course, the, the,

01:17:27.990 --> 01:17:30.310
the neuroscience behind what we do.

01:17:30.865 --> 01:17:33.605
But also the volunteers and
the colleagues, and okay,

01:17:33.755 --> 01:17:35.535
this is how we work here.

01:17:35.965 --> 01:17:36.905
This is how we do it.

01:17:37.565 --> 01:17:41.485
And usually they, they,
they just go with it.

01:17:41.485 --> 01:17:49.365
And there's one time, uh, I later found
out that this was a dad with narcissism.

01:17:49.505 --> 01:17:50.655
I didn't know at the time.

01:17:51.335 --> 01:17:56.935
But he, he, despite me explaining the
neuroscience and the eight guidelines.

01:17:57.430 --> 01:18:03.900
He just the first couple of times he
went with it, and then he he decided

01:18:04.220 --> 01:18:06.320
that I was wrong and he was right.

01:18:07.050 --> 01:18:13.060
So yeah, that that family didn't
no longer come because the boy

01:18:13.080 --> 01:18:15.500
also, you know, loyalty to dad.

01:18:15.500 --> 01:18:18.880
If that says it's not fun,
we're not going anymore.

01:18:19.480 --> 01:18:24.220
But he turned out to have a
narcissistic personality disorder.

01:18:24.230 --> 01:18:30.480
So that was the one time I was like,
okay, I don't know if I would have

01:18:30.480 --> 01:18:34.980
more knowledge about narcissism if
I could have avoided that situation.

01:18:34.990 --> 01:18:41.970
But his ex wife said he had XYZ therapists
and he all went two or three times to

01:18:41.970 --> 01:18:44.870
that person and just went away again.

01:18:44.910 --> 01:18:46.460
So, I wasn't the only one.

01:18:47.950 --> 01:18:52.230
So that one still puzzles me
a bit, like, okay, could I

01:18:52.240 --> 01:18:53.490
have handled that differently?

01:18:53.660 --> 01:18:55.920
But  usually.

01:18:55.995 --> 01:19:00.245
It's they respond very positively
to the approach we have.

01:19:01.355 --> 01:19:02.625
Rupert Isaacson: So
here's another question.

01:19:02.725 --> 01:19:07.655
I know that the Netherlands is a little
bit like the, like Germany where I am,

01:19:07.655 --> 01:19:13.145
where in some ways it's really good that
you'll get, there's, there's, there's

01:19:13.355 --> 01:19:17.855
understanding from within government of,
of the value of equine assisted work.

01:19:17.955 --> 01:19:22.445
But at the same time unless one goes
through, you know, very, very set.

01:19:23.260 --> 01:19:27.600
Pathways, which then can end up being
quite constraining to find the funding.

01:19:27.780 --> 01:19:29.450
How do you find the funding?

01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:35.540
Because you're very much pioneering, you
know, This much more child led approach.

01:19:35.930 --> 01:19:41.460
How, how do you find the funding to make
that happen within the Netherlands system?

01:19:41.460 --> 01:19:45.010
I think a lot of people would
be quite, yeah, to know.

01:19:46.610 --> 01:19:52.370
Carola Beekmann: So in the Netherlands
every municipal is responsible

01:19:52.380 --> 01:19:58.290
for the well being for everybody
who lives in their community.

01:19:58.870 --> 01:20:02.250
So the funding is very decentralized.

01:20:02.250 --> 01:20:05.150
So it used to be through
the, the national government.

01:20:05.170 --> 01:20:10.920
Now it's with the municipalities and
well, they went through a learning

01:20:10.920 --> 01:20:18.110
curve and now decided that it's for them
easier to only work with big contractors.

01:20:18.110 --> 01:20:22.100
So we speak mental health
healthcare organizations.

01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:30.930
So, for people like me who are independent
what we now have to do, so like before

01:20:30.930 --> 01:20:36.250
I could be like a main contractor
for my municipal that changed now.

01:20:36.250 --> 01:20:41.170
So now I have to find a big
organization to be a subcontractor with.

01:20:41.310 --> 01:20:41.410
So

01:20:41.410 --> 01:20:43.280
Rupert Isaacson: you have to
partner up and subcontract.

01:20:43.300 --> 01:20:43.730
Okay.

01:20:43.780 --> 01:20:44.820
Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.

01:20:44.820 --> 01:20:48.480
And then every municipal
has like a welfare team.

01:20:48.975 --> 01:20:54.585
So when there's a kid who has
challenges the family can go to the,

01:20:54.715 --> 01:21:00.575
to the welfare team and they get a
counselor and with the family and the

01:21:00.575 --> 01:21:08.425
counselor, they see which  which kind
of care, uh, guidance would be helpful.

01:21:08.975 --> 01:21:14.425
So the other thing is I need to get myself
known with those welfare counselors.

01:21:14.435 --> 01:21:16.995
So they know that I exist.

01:21:17.500 --> 01:21:18.780
Because I'm a subcontractor.

01:21:18.780 --> 01:21:20.760
So I'm not like on the big list.

01:21:20.980 --> 01:21:24.940
So yeah, that takes some time
for people to get to know you.

01:21:25.100 --> 01:21:33.190
And then when you have some successful
clients who with very happy parents,

01:21:33.190 --> 01:21:37.990
happy clients and goals met then
your name starts to get around.

01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:43.100
So it, it, it takes time
to, to make yourself known.

01:21:43.790 --> 01:21:51.200
And the paperwork takes time and, and
yeah, you really need to, to dig into it.

01:21:51.670 --> 01:21:59.400
Some choose to not work with the funding
and say, I only take private clients so

01:21:59.430 --> 01:22:01.430
that, that the parents funded themselves.

01:22:02.015 --> 01:22:07.475
I do have some, but for me, I find it
very important to keep collaborating

01:22:07.505 --> 01:22:13.145
with my local Municipals, because
otherwise, the kids of the people who

01:22:13.175 --> 01:22:17.605
can't afford it, which are usually the
kids who need it most I don't get to

01:22:17.615 --> 01:22:22.065
serve if I only do the private funding.

01:22:22.075 --> 01:22:28.265
So, For me I'm really really
invested a lot and still investing

01:22:28.265 --> 01:22:32.165
a lot because I just moved to this
place one and a half year ago.

01:22:32.165 --> 01:22:37.025
It's, uh, sort of besides my earlier area.

01:22:37.025 --> 01:22:40.255
So I need to invest in
getting to know all the.

01:22:41.135 --> 01:22:44.435
local welfare counselors
here to get my name out.

01:22:44.625 --> 01:22:51.665
So, yeah, it it takes a lot of
tenacity, but for me, it's worth it

01:22:51.785 --> 01:22:57.710
and important to, to especially need,
reach those kids that need it the most.

01:22:58.920 --> 01:22:59.520
So

01:23:00.650 --> 01:23:06.410
Rupert Isaacson: what you're talking about
here is, is a sort of bureaucratic stuff

01:23:06.450 --> 01:23:12.445
you've got to do on top of running of
the barn, the You know, looking after the

01:23:12.445 --> 01:23:15.925
horses, the training of the horses, the
obviously the serving the clients that,

01:23:16.305 --> 01:23:22.605
you know, and you've, you've bootstrapped
this up independently over a decade or so.

01:23:25.255 --> 01:23:26.455
What about burnout?

01:23:26.525 --> 01:23:31.195
I mean, this has been a lot of, a
lot of work, a lot of responsibility.

01:23:33.185 --> 01:23:35.015
Have you experienced that?

01:23:35.045 --> 01:23:37.185
And if so, what have you done about it?

01:23:37.185 --> 01:23:40.055
Because I think this is something
that faces a lot of people

01:23:40.065 --> 01:23:41.075
that are getting into it.

01:23:41.085 --> 01:23:41.545
Yes.

01:23:42.455 --> 01:23:42.885
Yeah.

01:23:43.095 --> 01:23:44.285
And what would your advice be?

01:23:44.905 --> 01:23:45.415
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:23:45.855 --> 01:23:47.575
So, yes, that happened.

01:23:48.295 --> 01:23:53.155
Christmas 2020, we drove home from
my mum's and I just started to cry.

01:23:53.685 --> 01:23:55.785
And I had no idea why and I couldn't stop.

01:23:56.640 --> 01:24:04.500
sO after sometime I met with a
psychiatrist and I had the very nasty

01:24:04.530 --> 01:24:11.230
combo of depression with burnout and which
is tricky because for depression, they

01:24:11.230 --> 01:24:13.690
say, okay, go out, move, be in nature.

01:24:14.200 --> 01:24:18.220
But with burnout, if you do one step
too many, you take three steps back.

01:24:18.680 --> 01:24:23.740
So to balance that out was
a very tricky and long.

01:24:24.415 --> 01:24:32.445
Way to come back from and well,
at first I definitely couldn't

01:24:32.445 --> 01:24:34.265
do without the medication.

01:24:34.265 --> 01:24:38.835
So, I started with that and they
knocked me off my feet every time I

01:24:38.845 --> 01:24:45.345
had to go up my dosage, I, it took me
a month to, to get regulated again.

01:24:45.345 --> 01:24:47.335
So that in itself was.

01:24:48.140 --> 01:24:56.980
A very yeah, hectic time and yeah, I
slept and I slept and I slept and I was

01:24:57.180 --> 01:24:59.990
up for about a couple of hours a day.

01:25:00.020 --> 01:25:05.390
I drove to my horses usually
crying to, went there, took

01:25:05.390 --> 01:25:06.740
care of them and drove back.

01:25:07.040 --> 01:25:09.950
I could hear one playlist.

01:25:11.330 --> 01:25:16.635
Music I couldn't, um, bear anything else.

01:25:17.665 --> 01:25:23.395
So, and you know, I, I ate some and I
took care of my daughter and that was it.

01:25:23.725 --> 01:25:24.895
And the rest I slept.

01:25:25.665 --> 01:25:29.295
And so that was a dark time.

01:25:29.295 --> 01:25:29.660
How long did that, how long

01:25:29.660 --> 01:25:33.225
Rupert Isaacson: did that, that, that
really extreme crisis time last Mm,

01:25:35.985 --> 01:25:39.455
Carola Beekmann: I would say
about a half year before.

01:25:40.700 --> 01:25:41.160
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:25:41.270 --> 01:25:44.940
In that time, you presumably had to
put your therapeutic work on pause.

01:25:45.620 --> 01:25:46.070
Yes.

01:25:46.900 --> 01:25:47.310
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:48.850
Yeah.

01:25:48.870 --> 01:25:49.620
I couldn't work.

01:25:49.840 --> 01:25:54.390
So, luckily I'm a member of what
we call in Dutch a Broodfonds,

01:25:54.430 --> 01:25:56.200
which translates to bread fund.

01:25:56.220 --> 01:26:03.810
It's a group of entrepreneurs who put
money aside in a locked savings account.

01:26:04.225 --> 01:26:08.835
And when some, uh, anybody
out of that group gets ill,

01:26:09.145 --> 01:26:10.905
we donate money to each other.

01:26:11.425 --> 01:26:12.305
That's interesting.

01:26:12.435 --> 01:26:12.785
Is that something,

01:26:13.175 --> 01:26:14.855
Rupert Isaacson: is that a
tradition within the Netherlands?

01:26:15.425 --> 01:26:20.235
Carola Beekmann: It's, it's new
ish but it's, it's it's way cheaper

01:26:20.265 --> 01:26:24.795
and better than your disability
insurance, because especially in

01:26:24.795 --> 01:26:27.665
the horse business, I, I try to.

01:26:28.495 --> 01:26:33.295
insure myself and it would
have cost me 800 euros a month.

01:26:34.035 --> 01:26:39.595
So because I work with horses,
that's a high risk business.

01:26:39.635 --> 01:26:43.775
So, so through this broad phones
you know, we, we help each other

01:26:43.775 --> 01:26:45.335
and we also have network meetings.

01:26:45.335 --> 01:26:46.985
So we, we know each other.

01:26:47.515 --> 01:26:53.045
So that makes it more like a, a
tribe thing or a community thing.

01:26:53.045 --> 01:26:54.975
Like, okay, we take care of each other.

01:26:55.470 --> 01:26:59.240
It's not this big insurance
company who gets to make a

01:26:59.240 --> 01:27:00.600
lot of money over our backs.

01:27:00.640 --> 01:27:00.990
And

01:27:01.540 --> 01:27:03.420
Rupert Isaacson: is there
any sort of government or

01:27:03.480 --> 01:27:04.690
oversight over the Braapfond?

01:27:05.130 --> 01:27:09.320
I mean, are they, or is it just like,
what's to stop somebody from running

01:27:09.320 --> 01:27:11.050
off with the money or like, how's that

01:27:11.090 --> 01:27:11.300
Carola Beekmann: organized?

01:27:11.300 --> 01:27:11.460
Yeah.

01:27:11.460 --> 01:27:11.630
Yeah.

01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:12.080
No.

01:27:12.570 --> 01:27:17.100
All the, you know, everybody has their
own savings account, but they're locked.

01:27:17.420 --> 01:27:19.440
So I can't get money out of it.

01:27:19.450 --> 01:27:21.930
So I can put money into it every month.

01:27:22.805 --> 01:27:29.445
bUt only the secretary of the
treasurer of our Broodfond can get

01:27:29.455 --> 01:27:36.945
money of, get, gets yeah, gives
notice to, to the big organization.

01:27:36.945 --> 01:27:44.265
So like, okay, this person needs a
donation and it's all, all in you know,

01:27:44.265 --> 01:27:48.835
you, when you make a lot of money, you
donate more than when you make a little

01:27:48.835 --> 01:27:54.185
bit money, you donate a bit less and
then or put less in your savings account.

01:27:54.435 --> 01:27:56.805
So it's all like balanced out, like, and

01:27:56.805 --> 01:27:58.685
Rupert Isaacson: was this a
fund that already existed or was

01:27:58.685 --> 01:27:59.895
this something you put together

01:27:59.895 --> 01:28:00.525
Carola Beekmann: with, with the group?

01:28:00.535 --> 01:28:01.075
No, no, no.

01:28:01.075 --> 01:28:03.555
It's, it's an existing
thing in the Netherlands.

01:28:04.525 --> 01:28:05.075
So

01:28:05.275 --> 01:28:06.135
Rupert Isaacson: who's to pay into?

01:28:07.325 --> 01:28:07.685
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

01:28:08.235 --> 01:28:12.265
So you, you pay like a monthly fee or no.

01:28:13.015 --> 01:28:16.825
You pay yourself in your
closed bank account.

01:28:17.165 --> 01:28:21.795
You pay yourself, but the, the treasurer
can get money out of it to help.

01:28:22.290 --> 01:28:22.470
My

01:28:22.470 --> 01:28:24.530
Rupert Isaacson: colleagues
got it and that, and so there's

01:28:24.530 --> 01:28:25.770
sort of legal oversight of

01:28:25.770 --> 01:28:26.060
Carola Beekmann: this.

01:28:26.570 --> 01:28:26.980
Yes.

01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:31.640
It's all with, with the taxes and
everything that's all figured out.

01:28:31.650 --> 01:28:33.130
So it's all, how long has

01:28:33.130 --> 01:28:35.480
Rupert Isaacson: this been
a thing in the Netherlands?

01:28:36.020 --> 01:28:36.860
Carola Beekmann: I don't know.

01:28:36.860 --> 01:28:40.170
I should have, I should look that
up, but yeah, there are quite a

01:28:40.170 --> 01:28:43.530
Rupert Isaacson: girl or is it
like 20 years or what do you think?

01:28:44.890 --> 01:28:46.060
Carola Beekmann: I heard about it.

01:28:46.725 --> 01:28:52.735
Just before I joined because I saw this
thingy that there was a meeting for new

01:28:52.735 --> 01:28:58.125
members to to to tell us You know, what is
this about and I was like, okay, I don't

01:28:58.125 --> 01:29:00.245
have an insurance yet Maybe this is a good

01:29:00.245 --> 01:29:02.895
Rupert Isaacson: idea used to you
when you first heard about it.

01:29:04.065 --> 01:29:04.615
Yes.

01:29:04.735 --> 01:29:05.235
Okay.

01:29:05.435 --> 01:29:08.255
So maybe it's something
relatively recent within

01:29:08.335 --> 01:29:12.235
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I don't
know, maybe five to ten years or

01:29:12.245 --> 01:29:13.695
so I'd have to look it up, but

01:29:13.705 --> 01:29:15.275
Rupert Isaacson: that's really,
that's really interesting.

01:29:15.295 --> 01:29:20.005
I'd be actually, I just sort of
want to do a bit of a heads up then

01:29:20.005 --> 01:29:21.715
to the, the listeners, listeners.

01:29:22.175 --> 01:29:25.025
Do you have, if you're listening
from another country, is there

01:29:25.045 --> 01:29:26.685
anything similar to this?

01:29:27.285 --> 01:29:27.725
Because.

01:29:28.005 --> 01:29:29.595
I have not heard of this before.

01:29:29.635 --> 01:29:33.085
I can't, I don't think
this exists within the UK.

01:29:33.275 --> 01:29:35.325
I certainly don't think
this exists within the USA.

01:29:35.355 --> 01:29:36.585
I haven't heard of it in Germany.

01:29:36.725 --> 01:29:37.445
Maybe it's there.

01:29:37.785 --> 01:29:41.205
Tell us if it is, because this is,
this is really useful information,

01:29:41.205 --> 01:29:44.725
I think, for people who are doing
this sort of work that we're doing.

01:29:45.735 --> 01:29:46.465
Carola Beekmann: Absolutely.

01:29:47.310 --> 01:29:47.660
Yeah.

01:29:47.970 --> 01:29:52.080
So the, the broad phones, they,
they kept me alive while I was sick.

01:29:52.120 --> 01:29:58.320
That that's the, the, the conclusion of
this  of this talk about the broad phones.

01:29:58.430 --> 01:30:03.990
They, because when I was sick, I,
they, all the other members donated

01:30:04.010 --> 01:30:09.320
to me every month so I could, uh,
keep eating and feeding my horses.

01:30:09.360 --> 01:30:10.160
And if.

01:30:10.855 --> 01:30:17.625
If that hadn't be, I had to sell them
all and, uh, probably ended back up

01:30:17.675 --> 01:30:19.905
in, in the school somewhere again.

01:30:20.695 --> 01:30:22.785
So they, they really saved my butt.

01:30:22.985 --> 01:30:23.415
So,

01:30:25.985 --> 01:30:29.745
Rupert Isaacson: okay, so then by the
time you ended up, you know, opening

01:30:29.745 --> 01:30:33.965
for business again when you felt that
you had gone through some recovery, did

01:30:33.965 --> 01:30:40.490
you find that having spent some time
effectively as a client, Um, rather than

01:30:40.490 --> 01:30:43.470
as a provider, a service user, rather
than a service provider, if you like

01:30:44.060 --> 01:30:49.240
that, did that deepen and inform your
practice, your equine assisted practice?

01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:50.160
Yeah.

01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:51.910
What wisdom did that bring?

01:30:52.881 --> 01:30:57.111
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, it, it,
it makes you more aware of what

01:30:57.201 --> 01:31:00.261
families deal with go through.

01:31:00.951 --> 01:31:05.091
yoU know, I had the trauma for when I
was young, but you know, I was over that.

01:31:05.111 --> 01:31:05.861
I dealt with it.

01:31:05.861 --> 01:31:08.046
So it, Kind of goes to
the back of your mind.

01:31:08.826 --> 01:31:11.966
But going through this
and also dealing with.

01:31:12.646 --> 01:31:18.076
thE doctors and the medicine and
the psyche the psyche psychiatrist

01:31:19.686 --> 01:31:23.056
and that is yeah, obviously.

01:31:23.296 --> 01:31:29.936
And also the process of getting diagnosed,
it turned out that one of the main

01:31:29.966 --> 01:31:36.126
reasons I got so burned out and depressed
is I turned out to have ADHD which was

01:31:36.526 --> 01:31:42.821
undiagnosed You know, especially people,
my age, that was a boy's thing, right?

01:31:43.361 --> 01:31:49.561
That girls have ADHD is well, not when I
was young, that was not common knowledge.

01:31:49.611 --> 01:31:51.461
I don't even know if boys were.

01:31:52.036 --> 01:31:58.056
Diagnosed back then, or they
was just busy and irresponsible

01:31:58.056 --> 01:31:59.436
and always up to something.

01:31:59.976 --> 01:32:07.016
So that really helped me heal
because I now could figure out like

01:32:07.036 --> 01:32:09.516
admin work was like horror for me.

01:32:10.016 --> 01:32:11.336
I couldn't get anything done.

01:32:11.506 --> 01:32:13.306
You know, my mind went everywhere.

01:32:13.306 --> 01:32:17.236
I had my to do list and at the end
of the morning I had done nothing

01:32:17.246 --> 01:32:18.696
or at least completed nothing.

01:32:19.406 --> 01:32:20.306
so That was one of the.

01:32:20.686 --> 01:32:24.736
Big frustrations and,
and causes of my burnout.

01:32:24.756 --> 01:32:28.426
And there was Murphy's law, there
was all kinds of stuff going on, but

01:32:28.436 --> 01:32:34.486
anyway, going through that again with
the diagnosis process and dealing

01:32:34.486 --> 01:32:36.346
with the doctors and the medication.

01:32:37.016 --> 01:32:41.596
yeAh, it really gave me a
deeper sense of like, okay.

01:32:42.276 --> 01:32:46.166
This is what these
families have to deal with.

01:32:46.196 --> 01:32:51.856
And they usually don't come to me
first, you know, they have usually tried

01:32:52.346 --> 01:32:57.126
anything and everything before they
get tipped off that this also exists

01:32:57.126 --> 01:32:58.836
because it's not so well known yet.

01:33:00.016 --> 01:33:03.936
sO yeah, it it really has
deepened my understanding.

01:33:04.666 --> 01:33:13.281
And also it, it urged me to seek
other forms of healing for myself.

01:33:14.051 --> 01:33:17.551
So what so in the beginning I
couldn't work with my horses, you

01:33:17.551 --> 01:33:21.121
know, from the medication I got so
dizzy, so I couldn't lunge a horse.

01:33:21.121 --> 01:33:26.211
I couldn't sit on a horse, but as soon as
I could I had to change perspective again.

01:33:26.221 --> 01:33:31.501
You know, I normally, I ride to train
my horses and now my horses had to help.

01:33:32.631 --> 01:33:35.791
So I started to ride for me.

01:33:36.191 --> 01:33:39.881
And that was a new experience
for me because I was always so

01:33:39.881 --> 01:33:42.411
focused on this horse needs this.

01:33:42.411 --> 01:33:44.741
So we're going to do this
particular training today.

01:33:45.581 --> 01:33:49.661
And, but luckily because I did
that, I had horses who could

01:33:49.851 --> 01:33:53.281
carry me and right for me.

01:33:53.721 --> 01:33:57.561
So, that was a big thing that
helped me turn it around.

01:33:58.316 --> 01:34:04.886
And the other thing I met was a
thing called TRE, that is tension

01:34:04.896 --> 01:34:07.386
or trauma releasing exercises.

01:34:08.796 --> 01:34:11.936
A lady I know she already
told me about it, that she did

01:34:11.956 --> 01:34:14.206
that, my time wasn't there yet.

01:34:14.856 --> 01:34:19.276
But then I saw, okay, I think I want
to try it because I got to a level

01:34:19.286 --> 01:34:20.926
like, okay, I can function again.

01:34:21.631 --> 01:34:25.801
But there was like this plateau, I
couldn't get any further than that.

01:34:26.561 --> 01:34:34.211
And then I started the TRE sessions with
her and that just, um, helped me so much.

01:34:34.251 --> 01:34:39.201
What it basically is, you do a couple of
exercises to exhaust your muscle groups,

01:34:39.791 --> 01:34:43.641
and then you either stand against the
wall or you lay down and you start to

01:34:43.641 --> 01:34:47.421
tremble and with that trembling trauma.

01:34:48.656 --> 01:34:49.926
Tramples out of yourselves.

01:34:50.226 --> 01:34:51.546
That's like the short of it.

01:34:52.236 --> 01:34:52.906
And

01:34:53.476 --> 01:34:53.736
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:34:54.686 --> 01:34:58.376
Like when a hunted deer goes, gets
the shakes off to getting exactly,

01:34:58.406 --> 01:35:00.556
Carola Beekmann: exactly
like babies and animals.

01:35:00.596 --> 01:35:01.906
They do it themselves.

01:35:02.176 --> 01:35:02.506
Okay.

01:35:02.556 --> 01:35:08.856
We, as people have learned that
that is weird behavior somewhere.

01:35:09.016 --> 01:35:10.546
So we stopped doing it.

01:35:11.096 --> 01:35:13.076
But it's, it's a natural thing.

01:35:13.256 --> 01:35:17.266
And when your body knows how
to do it again without feeling

01:35:17.506 --> 01:35:20.176
awkward It's, it's very healing.

01:35:20.306 --> 01:35:24.406
So because trauma gets in all your
cells, it's not just in your brain,

01:35:24.476 --> 01:35:29.696
it's, it's so for me, what first
happened is all my old physical

01:35:29.696 --> 01:35:34.506
traumas, like my knee and my ankle and
my calf, they all started to dissolve.

01:35:36.156 --> 01:35:38.716
You know, they, they were
usually okay, but when you

01:35:38.716 --> 01:35:40.056
get really tired, you feel it.

01:35:40.226 --> 01:35:43.496
I I'm, I'm sure, you know, it's
like you're, when you're really

01:35:43.496 --> 01:35:46.096
tired, like, oh yeah, that injury
over there is now bugging me.

01:35:46.556 --> 01:35:47.326
That's gone.

01:35:47.356 --> 01:35:48.926
That was the first thing that happened.

01:35:48.956 --> 01:35:53.096
And then my, yeah, my mind just opened up.

01:35:53.236 --> 01:35:56.276
There was room for new space.

01:35:56.276 --> 01:35:57.386
I could read again.

01:35:57.386 --> 01:35:58.536
I could study again.

01:35:59.076 --> 01:36:00.586
That was all not possible.

01:36:00.796 --> 01:36:03.676
I couldn't do anything new before that.

01:36:03.846 --> 01:36:06.636
So, yeah, that was a big thing for me.

01:36:07.326 --> 01:36:13.766
And then the icing on the cake is after a
five year search, we found this new home.

01:36:15.331 --> 01:36:16.611
with on a little plot.

01:36:16.611 --> 01:36:20.641
So it's a tiny little farm
where I can finally have my, my

01:36:20.641 --> 01:36:22.051
horses and my practice at home.

01:36:22.751 --> 01:36:24.691
Yeah, that was the
icing on the cake and my

01:36:25.081 --> 01:36:27.931
Rupert Isaacson: finally working
out of another writing stable.

01:36:28.661 --> 01:36:29.811
Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.

01:36:31.511 --> 01:36:38.231
Which was cool for quite a while,
but the, the longstanding wish is

01:36:38.231 --> 01:36:42.681
to just have my own place you know,
because, you know, when you're

01:36:42.681 --> 01:36:44.431
in a writing stable, there are.

01:36:44.741 --> 01:36:50.801
Other people that ride there and you
always have to compromise and, and

01:36:50.901 --> 01:36:55.831
do a lot of planning and here it's
just, it's me, you know, I can do

01:36:55.841 --> 01:37:02.311
whatever, whenever, uh, and it takes
a lot of work that comes with it.

01:37:03.456 --> 01:37:05.966
.  But you know, I do it for ourselves.

01:37:05.966 --> 01:37:06.956
It's our own place.

01:37:06.956 --> 01:37:09.686
So, and I love to be outside and yeah.

01:37:10.511 --> 01:37:12.611
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that, that,
that's something definitely, which

01:37:12.611 --> 01:37:14.831
I've experienced both sides of,
you know, for years and years.

01:37:14.831 --> 01:37:18.041
I had my own, we had our own
place in Texas and then Mm-Hmm.

01:37:18.281 --> 01:37:19.751
to Germany, you know, young kids.

01:37:19.751 --> 01:37:23.051
So suddenly it's like, well, no, let's
not immediately start another farm.

01:37:23.051 --> 01:37:23.171
Let's.

01:37:23.961 --> 01:37:25.391
Work out of a riding stable.

01:37:25.391 --> 01:37:26.011
And that was it.

01:37:26.041 --> 01:37:26.701
It worked.

01:37:27.191 --> 01:37:32.421
We learned how to dance that dance
that you're talking about around other

01:37:32.421 --> 01:37:38.961
people whose attitudes and horses may
not be quite as attuned to the needs

01:37:38.961 --> 01:37:41.681
of the clients as as as one might like.

01:37:42.011 --> 01:37:45.851
And now I'm back to having my own place
again and can control the environment.

01:37:46.171 --> 01:37:47.461
And there's definitely.

01:37:48.066 --> 01:37:53.636
I'm very, very glad I went through that
education process of no longer being

01:37:53.666 --> 01:37:58.546
complacent and being able to understand
that when people are working out of

01:37:59.186 --> 01:38:03.046
riding stables, which a lot of people
have to how much kudos to give them

01:38:03.046 --> 01:38:06.996
that they can get that work done, you
know,  dancing around other people.

01:38:07.236 --> 01:38:08.966
But yes, it's, it's definitely.

01:38:10.311 --> 01:38:13.171
So much nicer if one can have control.

01:38:13.321 --> 01:38:16.651
So now you, there you are, you've,
you've, you've come through, you've

01:38:16.661 --> 01:38:22.251
built the thing, then you collapsed, then
you built it up again, and here you are

01:38:22.251 --> 01:38:26.111
now, here you are, stronger than ever,
with your own, operating out of your

01:38:26.111 --> 01:38:27.661
own place, doing this cutting edge work.

01:38:28.161 --> 01:38:33.601
I also know that you have recently,
despite being a maverick and

01:38:33.601 --> 01:38:36.941
having gone outside of the regular.

01:38:37.311 --> 01:38:41.441
You know, therapeutic riding
associations, systems, and so on, as

01:38:41.441 --> 01:38:43.531
many of us have and have made it work.

01:38:43.561 --> 01:38:48.001
You have now actually begun a
collaboration with the Royal Dutch

01:38:48.031 --> 01:38:52.879
Horse Association, which would be the
equivalent in the UK of the British Horse

01:38:52.879 --> 01:38:55.431
Society or, or Spot Island or the U.

01:38:55.431 --> 01:38:55.581
S.

01:38:55.581 --> 01:38:56.701
Equestrian Federation.

01:38:56.871 --> 01:39:01.521
You know, the, the, you've suddenly
found yourself, interestingly,

01:39:02.301 --> 01:39:03.281
back with the mainstream.

01:39:03.581 --> 01:39:06.041
Can you tell us a bit
about this collaboration?

01:39:06.051 --> 01:39:06.661
What is it?

01:39:07.096 --> 01:39:11.246
What's it doing and how, how'd you get

01:39:11.296 --> 01:39:18.316
Carola Beekmann: So what we has just
have established recently, , is a

01:39:18.316 --> 01:39:22.746
new collaboration with our Royal
Dutch Horse Association, , which

01:39:22.746 --> 01:39:23.916
for the Dutchies is KNHS.

01:39:25.831 --> 01:39:31.681
wE now have jumped through enough
hoops to become part of the

01:39:31.691 --> 01:39:38.261
mandatory training, , for continuous
professionalization, , for instructors.

01:39:38.271 --> 01:39:43.521
So in the Netherlands you become
an instructor, but then you have to

01:39:43.561 --> 01:39:46.651
keep up your knowledge and skills.

01:39:47.266 --> 01:39:53.416
So,  there is a select,
, group no, not a group.

01:39:53.696 --> 01:40:00.486
It, well, there are select selected
courses you can do to, to get points to,

01:40:00.486 --> 01:40:02.606
to keep your license as an instructor.

01:40:03.216 --> 01:40:09.426
And just last week we got the
notification that we are approved for

01:40:09.426 --> 01:40:12.016
that program for horseboy method one.

01:40:12.736 --> 01:40:20.956
So, which means that now we can bring
horseboy method one into the  riding

01:40:21.006 --> 01:40:25.526
schools the general riding schools,
of course, but especially the riding

01:40:25.526 --> 01:40:27.096
schools for special needs people.

01:40:27.706 --> 01:40:36.056
So the therapeutic riding center and what
really for me has been a drive to do that

01:40:36.066 --> 01:40:38.896
is what we talked about earlier is that.

01:40:41.576 --> 01:40:45.716
Sometimes what we see in those
riding centers, it's, it's the calm

01:40:45.726 --> 01:40:51.066
older horses that work there, but
they, they, , have their issues.

01:40:51.066 --> 01:40:52.636
And that's why they're quiet.

01:40:53.516 --> 01:40:59.256
That can be, but what we also
see is that the horses don't

01:40:59.256 --> 01:41:00.606
get better from that work.

01:41:00.776 --> 01:41:01.656
They get worse.

01:41:02.106 --> 01:41:04.156
So they get worn out at some point.

01:41:04.876 --> 01:41:07.926
So to reverse that, or at least help.

01:41:08.681 --> 01:41:12.881
To keep those horses in better
shape or get them in better shape.

01:41:13.811 --> 01:41:19.531
I'm very passionate about bringing
horseboy methods to those riding schools.

01:41:19.541 --> 01:41:25.511
So they can see a new way, another
way, which doesn't take more time.

01:41:26.041 --> 01:41:33.191
But it is so much better for the welfare
for the horse, but also because of the

01:41:33.851 --> 01:41:36.801
effect we talked about earlier, we'll get.

01:41:37.281 --> 01:41:39.741
More benefits for the writers.

01:41:40.531 --> 01:41:42.731
So, yeah, it's very exciting.

01:41:42.901 --> 01:41:48.451
We're going to start training in
February at a therapeutic writing center.

01:41:49.551 --> 01:41:55.871
sO yeah, it's, I hope it's going
to be a success and get the word

01:41:55.891 --> 01:41:58.781
out that there is another way.

01:41:59.126 --> 01:42:05.086
Which helps to, yeah, to
have the horses happier and

01:42:05.086 --> 01:42:06.926
healthier and get better results.

01:42:08.986 --> 01:42:13.686
So, yeah, you, you have to be
the maverick and then in the

01:42:13.686 --> 01:42:18.136
Netherlands also be willing to
go back into mainstream and see.

01:42:18.896 --> 01:42:23.106
If you can on the edges of mainstream,
make the mainstream a bit wider.

01:42:23.786 --> 01:42:26.576
So that's the next

01:42:26.606 --> 01:42:29.656
Rupert Isaacson: big project
edging the mainstream's comfort

01:42:29.656 --> 01:42:30.926
zone a little further out.

01:42:31.326 --> 01:42:31.836
Exactly.

01:42:32.356 --> 01:42:32.676
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

01:42:32.736 --> 01:42:34.816
Just nudging them out
of their comfort zone.

01:42:35.486 --> 01:42:38.146
So yeah, I I'm very excited about that.

01:42:38.486 --> 01:42:38.916
Well that's

01:42:38.986 --> 01:42:41.116
Rupert Isaacson: a quite an achievement
and quite an achievement to come

01:42:41.116 --> 01:42:44.196
back because you know, you, you said
that the burnout, you know, which

01:42:44.196 --> 01:42:51.951
happened in 2020 You know, if that was
taking sort of a year or so to, to.

01:42:52.456 --> 01:42:53.096
Carola Beekmann: No, closer

01:42:53.096 --> 01:42:53.786
Rupert Isaacson: to two years.

01:42:54.146 --> 01:42:54.466
Yeah.

01:42:54.466 --> 01:42:56.286
So really get back from it.

01:42:56.436 --> 01:42:56.686
Yeah.

01:42:56.726 --> 01:42:57.006
Yeah.

01:42:57.216 --> 01:42:58.276
I can imagine.

01:42:58.386 --> 01:43:00.686
I mean, most burnouts, it's
at least a two year period.

01:43:01.096 --> 01:43:06.326
And then to, to, to surge back like
this new farm, new place collaboration

01:43:06.546 --> 01:43:10.666
with the Royal Dutch Horse Society
with their continuing education.

01:43:10.946 --> 01:43:12.936
That's, that's, you know,
hats off to you Carola.

01:43:13.696 --> 01:43:15.636
That's really something.

01:43:15.686 --> 01:43:15.966
Yeah.

01:43:16.876 --> 01:43:22.266
We are coming out of towards wrap up time.

01:43:25.176 --> 01:43:27.956
Is there any way people can contact you?

01:43:28.406 --> 01:43:31.656
Whether for trainings, whether for
inspiration, whether for advice,

01:43:31.676 --> 01:43:35.186
whether for obviously if they
want to bring their children or

01:43:35.656 --> 01:43:37.626
young adults to you as clients.

01:43:37.836 --> 01:43:39.236
How do people contact you?

01:43:39.586 --> 01:43:40.496
Where do they find you?

01:43:41.736 --> 01:43:42.186
Carola Beekmann: Okay.

01:43:42.786 --> 01:43:44.196
There are several ways.

01:43:44.286 --> 01:43:48.966
Of course I have my own website,
Corolla, BigMan nl I'm on Facebook.

01:43:48.966 --> 01:43:49.261
Can you spell that for us?

01:43:49.631 --> 01:43:49.981
It'sa.

01:43:49.981 --> 01:43:50.301
Rupert Isaacson: BigMan.

01:43:51.101 --> 01:43:51.956
How do you spell Corolla?

01:43:51.956 --> 01:43:52.961
BigMan nl.

01:43:53.986 --> 01:43:54.166
Oh,

01:43:54.826 --> 01:43:55.036
. 
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.

01:43:55.666 --> 01:44:07.016
C-A-R-O-L-A And then B-E-E-K-M-A-N nl.

01:44:07.526 --> 01:44:07.706
Okay.

01:44:08.426 --> 01:44:10.576
So The same for Facebook.

01:44:11.046 --> 01:44:16.426
I'm also on LinkedIn and we
also have a Facebook page called

01:44:16.426 --> 01:44:17.816
horse boy, the Netherlands.

01:44:17.866 --> 01:44:19.186
I'm one of the admins there.

01:44:19.186 --> 01:44:22.856
So if you reach out to there
you will get me directly or

01:44:22.896 --> 01:44:25.096
people will refer you to me.

01:44:25.796 --> 01:44:30.396
anD there is a brand new
website, totally Dutch that's

01:44:30.396 --> 01:44:32.426
called movement method dot NL.

01:44:33.531 --> 01:44:39.841
We have been working on that with five,
six colleagues for a while now, and it's.

01:44:40.661 --> 01:44:42.521
Not completely finished, but it's up.

01:44:42.621 --> 01:44:47.881
And so on the contact page, of course
you can also reach me and that's

01:44:47.911 --> 01:44:49.931
info at movement method dot NL.

01:44:51.371 --> 01:44:54.081
So yeah, that's how people can find me.

01:44:54.111 --> 01:44:56.421
And of course, through the NTLS.

01:44:56.901 --> 01:45:02.781
co website, I'm on the providers
page and also on the trainers page.

01:45:04.321 --> 01:45:05.061
Can I give you a little?

01:45:05.091 --> 01:45:07.761
Rupert Isaacson: So,   I just want
to, I want to do a little big ups

01:45:07.761 --> 01:45:09.431
for the, for the, for the listeners.

01:45:09.761 --> 01:45:13.471
In terms of not just the work with
the with, with special needs, which

01:45:13.471 --> 01:45:14.761
I know you're extremely good at.

01:45:15.391 --> 01:45:18.901
You're also very, very good producer
of horses in your own right.

01:45:18.941 --> 01:45:22.091
And Carola has been very
modest in the course of this

01:45:22.331 --> 01:45:23.791
interview listeners, but she's.

01:45:24.376 --> 01:45:27.756
She, she, she mentioned very briefly some
of the international work she's done.

01:45:28.306 --> 01:45:33.416
But one thing I can say is that I
know relatively few people who can

01:45:33.416 --> 01:45:39.226
really rehab and muscle horses to the
extent that I have seen Carola do it.

01:45:39.516 --> 01:45:43.606
Carola, I've seen you take a number
of horses, which were absolutely

01:45:43.606 --> 01:45:47.746
messed up in the back and in the hocks
and in the stifles and turn them.

01:45:48.191 --> 01:45:54.611
Around into meta horses, and a lot of
people who know the work that I do with

01:45:54.611 --> 01:45:59.461
horses know that, for example, with
my lunging work, I am a absolute flag

01:45:59.461 --> 01:46:02.271
flying user of side reins, etc, etc.

01:46:02.551 --> 01:46:03.631
And so, of course, there's always this.

01:46:04.061 --> 01:46:06.321
controversy between should you
use side reins or should you not?

01:46:06.791 --> 01:46:10.331
But I can absolutely say that Corolla
is one of the few people I've seen who,

01:46:10.521 --> 01:46:15.211
without the use of the side reins, can
absolutely, absolutely, miraculously

01:46:15.211 --> 01:46:19.581
turn a horse around in, in terms of its
muscling and in the, in the lunging.

01:46:20.246 --> 01:46:24.276
The reason I'm saying all this is
that if you're, if you're looking for

01:46:24.476 --> 01:46:30.336
help, advice, training, don't just go
through the, it's not confined to the

01:46:30.406 --> 01:46:32.116
equine assisted work that she does.

01:46:32.456 --> 01:46:35.956
I really would wholeheartedly
recommend Corolla because she's

01:46:35.956 --> 01:46:36.936
not going to say it herself.

01:46:37.126 --> 01:46:38.266
So I'm bigging her up now.

01:46:38.436 --> 01:46:42.996
I would really wholeheartedly recommend
you, Corolla, if someone's got a horse

01:46:42.996 --> 01:46:46.736
that needs, um, training or rehabbing.

01:46:47.216 --> 01:46:48.316
Whether or not.

01:46:48.681 --> 01:46:51.131
You're in the Netherlands because
I know that you can do this.

01:46:51.641 --> 01:46:53.641
She also hasn't said this
cause she's too modest.

01:46:53.811 --> 01:46:56.151
I know that she can do this
long distance through WhatsApp

01:46:56.541 --> 01:46:58.161
and online training programs.

01:46:58.171 --> 01:47:01.621
So, give us your, give us
your website again, Carola.

01:47:01.641 --> 01:47:01.841
Carola

01:47:03.021 --> 01:47:05.381
Carola Beekmann: Beekman dot com.

01:47:05.751 --> 01:47:06.111
Okay.

01:47:06.231 --> 01:47:06.861
Very Carola.

01:47:06.861 --> 01:47:11.951
So in, if for English you just call, you
just spell Beekman, then you get it right.

01:47:11.951 --> 01:47:12.296
And

01:47:12.296 --> 01:47:14.781
Rupert Isaacson: it's, and it's
all, it's all little letters, right?

01:47:14.781 --> 01:47:15.701
Carola Beekman.

01:47:15.701 --> 01:47:15.871
com.

01:47:15.881 --> 01:47:16.341
Yes.

01:47:16.621 --> 01:47:16.951
Carola Beekmann: Yes.

01:47:16.971 --> 01:47:20.401
And there is an English
section on my Dutch website.

01:47:20.401 --> 01:47:22.471
So, for all the horse training stuff.

01:47:22.711 --> 01:47:23.121
So.

01:47:24.016 --> 01:47:26.156
Rupert Isaacson: So do reach
out to her people, because she,

01:47:26.176 --> 01:47:27.686
she, she does know her stuff.

01:47:27.766 --> 01:47:32.226
And I have watched a number
of horses that were...

01:47:33.221 --> 01:47:39.891
Not, I would say the most obvious
contenders turn under Carola's tutelage

01:47:39.911 --> 01:47:43.811
into, like I said, meta horses,
including that black and white spotted

01:47:43.811 --> 01:47:48.251
mare, which she referred to, which was
probably one of the weakest backed horses

01:47:48.251 --> 01:47:50.371
I've ever seen when you first got it.

01:47:50.401 --> 01:47:55.231
And the way you turned that horse around
was frankly, you know, astonishing.

01:47:55.231 --> 01:47:56.631
So hats off to you.

01:47:58.051 --> 01:47:58.441
Thank you.

01:47:59.021 --> 01:47:59.341
Pleasure.

01:47:59.551 --> 01:47:59.971
All right.

01:48:00.011 --> 01:48:03.451
Any last words before we, before we sign

01:48:03.451 --> 01:48:03.791
Carola Beekmann: off?

01:48:05.211 --> 01:48:07.791
No, just thank you for having me.

01:48:07.831 --> 01:48:13.801
And yeah, please reach out if you,
uh, want help or advice or coaching.

01:48:13.911 --> 01:48:17.821
I'm, I'm very eager and happy
to share all the knowledge.

01:48:18.756 --> 01:48:20.936
Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank
you for coming on, on the show.

01:48:21.186 --> 01:48:24.566
We're going to head out now and
get horses in from the field in the

01:48:24.566 --> 01:48:28.326
rain and take them back to, I'm sure
you're going to do the same thing

01:48:28.336 --> 01:48:31.526
cause it's raining like crazy here
in Northern Europe at the moment

01:48:31.696 --> 01:48:33.256
and has been for the last six weeks.

01:48:33.506 --> 01:48:36.286
I'm sure some of the listeners will
know exactly what we're talking about.

01:48:36.756 --> 01:48:41.006
And we look forward to just
keeping tabs on your work and

01:48:41.436 --> 01:48:42.966
seeing how you develop further.

01:48:43.606 --> 01:48:43.936
Yeah.

01:48:44.386 --> 01:48:44.806
Carola Beekmann: Okay.

01:48:45.181 --> 01:48:48.491
Thank you so much for having me
and it was a pleasure to chat.

01:48:49.301 --> 01:48:49.991
Likewise.

01:48:50.021 --> 01:48:50.461
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:48:50.471 --> 01:48:51.161
Speak soon.

01:48:52.211 --> 01:48:52.621
Speak soon.

01:48:53.127 --> 01:48:54.237
thank you for joining us.

01:48:54.267 --> 01:48:56.097
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

01:48:56.335 --> 01:49:01.375
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

01:49:01.375 --> 01:49:06.565
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01:49:11.921 --> 01:49:13.931
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