Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
Welcome back, everybody, to Equine Assisted World, where we talk to
people who are helping our species, humanity, with the assistance
of these incredible beings that we call Equus Equus, the horse.
And the reason, as you know, that we call it Equine Assisted World rather than
Therapeutic and so forth is because it's such, it's, it's grown so exponentially
to such a wide field in the last 10 years or so, that To limit it to just
one form of a therapeutic approach of course would not do justice to the to
the, to the universe and mosaic of really interesting work that is out there.
And so with that in mind we, as you know, look internationally for the first
time on the show, we're going to be talking to somebody in the Netherlands.
And the Netherlands is an interesting place because it's both a very
forward thinking and Some would say liberal, others would say
enlightened country both in education, therapeutic approaches and so forth.
And also it's rather rule based.
So, navigating that rather interesting mix of how to...
Supply and deliver services is not without its challenges.
And yet at the same time, one is dealing with a country where the acceptance
of alternative therapeutic approaches and so on is well established.
And someone who's been at the center of that for the last decade or so
is my guest today, Carola Beekman.
Carola Beekman from the Netherlands who has bootstrapped a really cutting
edge approach to equine assisted work there over the last decade or so.
And her organization, Maheo, , which is near Arnhem in the eastern part of
the Netherlands is doing work both in and outside of the mainstream and in
and outside of horse training, not just working with special needs that brings
really some unusual and very, very valuable contributions to the work.
So, Carola welcome to.
Equine Assisted World.
Thank you for coming on.
Can you explain to us the word Maheo?
What does it
Carola Beekmann: mean?
MAheo is an Hawaiian or Polynesian word and it means proud, right?
I saw it in a In a movie about a troubled girl who went to a farm with
horses and that place was called Maheo.
And I always told myself, if I ever get my own place, it will be called Maheo.
Rupert Isaacson: So proud, proud to be yourself, proud and
Carola Beekmann: yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
So to become proud of who you are.
So we help you to become you and be really proud of yourself.
Rupert Isaacson: That's a wonderful place to begin.
Carola Beekmann: Thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm happy to be here.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell us who you are, and perhaps how and
why you got into this funny old business of the equine assisted world?
Carola Beekmann: Sure.
I live in my with my husband and my daughter in a little town called Drempt,
which is about 20 kilometers from Arnhem, in the east of the Netherlands.
And I started my career as a teacher and already during my my days in college, I
chose the path of the special needs kids.
One of the reasons was, is I am myself as I was myself, a special needs kid.
And yeah, after a 20 years in working in schools, first as a teacher, then
as a special needs coordinator, coach for teachers, et cetera I did my
school principal educational program and decided that There wasn't a school
that I would like to lead because the way I wanted it it didn't exist.
So, that was one of the reasons why I quit working in schools.
And in the meantime I've been also always been a horsey girl.
I was the kind of girl who had her walls plastered with pony posters
and would Get any moment to, to go to a pony near to feed it a carrot or
something and to give it a, a brush or whatever I was allowed to do.
So, I also really became interested in horse training.
So at the end of my career as a school teacher, I was combining it
with being a horse riding instructor.
And for that, I did clinics abroad.
Went to all kinds of interesting places like South Africa, Kazakhstan, Qatar
Texas South Africa and Finland too.
And that was cool.
And then there came a moment where I could combine the two, the special needs
kids and the training of the horses.
And yeah, that's when this all got started.
Tell me,
Rupert Isaacson: you say that you were a special needs kid yourself.
That's really intriguing.
What type of special needs kid were you?
Carola Beekmann: Well, it was first of all I really struggled to learn how to read.
That was one of my earlier struggles.
The other one was concentration.
I was really good at concentrating where the fly in the classroom was.
I'm not as much paying attention to what I was supposed to do.
I was also one of those kids who never, never could figure out when,
which subject would be like after a short break on a Thursday, everybody
would pull out their geography books.
And I was like, why are you doing this?
And it turned out that every Thursday after the short break, we got geography.
I had no idea.
So, the whole Time, uh, awareness.
It just wasn't there.
And the other thing that happened later in is that I got really badly bullied.
And it became so bad I got so stressed out that I lost all my hair.
So, at the age of 12, 13, I was completely bald.
I just had one or two little hairs here in front, and the rest of my hair was gone.
Pure due to the stress of being bullied.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: a very, very hard thing for an adolescent
girl to go through, as you said.
So you say, you're saying right at your, as basis, puberty hits.
you lose your, your hair in school that had to be something
of a nightmare, surely?
Carola Beekmann: Definitely.
And not just for me, for my parents as well, of course.
I heard that later especially from my dad, how much he worried about
me, but yeah, there were definitely suicidal thoughts at times.
But I couldn't figure out how to Leave this life without hurting other
people around me like my family.
So That's what kept me going because I didn't want to hurt other people
But yeah, it was a a tough time.
Definitely.
Were you involved?
Yeah, and
Rupert Isaacson: Does this help you get through that?
Carola Beekmann: Yes, actually I was in a pony club, it was just starting
because I remember one time we had a jumping lesson and I was always
there with my helmet on, right?
So nobody really knew or saw.
And we had a jumping lesson and I fell off, my helmet fell off and one of the
dads rushed to me to come and help me.
And he was just totally in shock because I was bald.
So yeah, I around that time, I started to spend a lot of time with my
neighbor's horse or a pony, actually.
Yeah, and that definitely helped me to have my happy moments outside of school.
And also, I was blessed in a way because I was, um, in my secondary
school in my own small town.
Which was a blessing and what's the opposite of blessing again?
It was also not so good because yeah, curse.
Thank you.
I lost the word.
Because you know, people in a village, they cause they gossip about you,
but also it's sheltered, right?
So the kids in my school, they, they know they knew who I was and, and
yeah, accepted me for what I was.
So.
In my secondary school, which was during that time, I made that decision when I
was both, um, yeah, it was okay there.
It was of course still hard, but the girl that used to bully me was, didn't
go to that same secondary school.
So I was yeah, we were separated because of the school change and yeah,
then I slowly started to heal again.
But yeah, that pony, every minute out of school, not having
to do homework, I was there.
So, so you and, and
Rupert Isaacson: the pony young just tell me quickly I, I don't mean to make you
dwell on a painful time, but obviously this is, gives one, no, it's okay.
Yeah.
How long did it take for you to get to a point where your, your stress levels,
your cortisol levels could come down enough that your hair could regrow
and you could feel the confidence to then go on and clearly, you know, do
well in secondary, you know, Later education and so on to the point where
you could be thinking about becoming a school principal because obviously
that takes quite a lot of confidence.
Can you just do a little bit of how that shifted for you?
Because I think that will inform a lot about the equine assisted work.
Carola Beekmann: Well, I, it took me about until the end of my second
grade in, in secondary school.
So about two years to, to get my, my feedback on the ground.
anD that the main thing why I remember that so clearly, because
then my my grades really went up.
I remember the, the headmaster of my primary school said I, I should go to
the lowest level of secondary school because I couldn't deal with more.
And luckily my parents supported me and I went one level up, um, and I really
struggled the first two years because of all the stress and all the, well,
I now know all the cortisol and Yeah.
At the end of the second year, my, my grades went up and I
started to feel more okay.
And during that time I was really active in in the pony club and we had
competitions nearly every Saturday, which we went to in a big truck, load
up all the ponies and go somewhere around in our area to go out for a day.
And those Saturdays were a blessing for me.
to, to hang out with the horses and with my friends and do
the dressage and the jumping.
So I, I kind of lived for those Saturdays.
Yeah, they, they really helped me through that period.
Rupert Isaacson: That, that is somewhat surprising because, you
know, my, my memories of competing as a teenager which I did a lot of too.
I found it quite stressful.
How did you deal with, given that you were suffering from stress, you
know, to the point that your, your hair had fallen out and so on, did
you not find the same stresses in the competition world of riding, or did
you somehow manage to make some sort of separation in that, in your mind?
What was going on there?
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I, I guess for me, the, the joy of being with my pony club.
With all my friends and also especially for the dressage
part of it, I was pretty good.
So, I, I didn't really have to struggle to get all my points
to, to get to the next level.
And I think that also did a lot with my confidence because well, once
I was like 16, 17, I wrote it at the highest level of my pony club.
And I could kind of start helping and coaching the younger kids.
So, I think for me, the, my mom, in hindsight, my mom said you, you were
really nervous every Saturday morning.
She couldn't say anything to me and I would snap.
I don't really recall that.
How unusual for so it must be true.
So, so yeah, there was definitely some stress, but I think it was like more
like a stage fright kind of stress.
Not really that, uh, trauma stress it's, it's, it's a different feel.
Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: I hear you at least for me.
And there's a bit of a clue in what you were saying there too.
You said that you were really enjoying being with this group
of friends in the Pony Club.
So you found community and some sort of tribal, familial support there.
Why do you think that?
And Go ahead, you go ahead and I'll come back to this question in a minute.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
The interesting one is that the girl that bullied me in primary school.
Was at the same pony club.
Because we both were a bit older.
Yeah, we, we got along.
It, it was my mom who really could never forgive her for what she did
to me, but for her and me, myself, it was a non issue at that time, really.
So you managed to make it.
I, I, I questioned.
Yeah, I, I actually.
I never asked her, but I actually don't think that she remembers it like that.
She bullied me.
And later on, when I went to college to become a teacher, I I
also learned that problem is with the one that bullies and not.
The victim of the bullying that really gave me a different perspective on her.
Like she, you know, she lived on a farm.
The rest of us all lived in the village, so she might have felt like
an outsider herself and needed to, I don't know make herself bigger and more
important to feel seen or whatever.
So, but yeah, we made peace with it and we did pony camps together and
competing together and it was all good.
Yeah, my mom, my mom held a grudge, which I can also understand.
Rupert Isaacson: That's a really, really good insight.
I think it's quite rare for somebody to have gone through that full cycle
of being the victim, going through the suffering, making peace with it,
forgiving the perpetrator then making peace with the perpetrator and going on
to forge a new relationship with them.
At that young age, that must...
obviously inform a lot.
Of the work that you do now, the fact that you could, do you feel that
because you managed to, um, go through and not stay in the victim role?
That must give you insights now into the populations that you're working
with in the equine assistive world.
Would, would you
Carola Beekmann: think?
Yes, absolutely.
There's always a deeper, um, meaning behind behavior.
You know, people are not mean just because they're mean or you know,
there's always a story behind it.
And for me, it's always very interesting to, uh, find the story,
like what is hurting you, what is frustrating you, what's, what's
the story behind your anger or.
your dominance or in other cases why are you so introvert?
What, what's the story behind it?
And that's always.
For me, a trigger to really get to know the person and then help them
through whatever is bugging them that makes them behave the way they behave.
So yeah, definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you also told us that you had a natural penchant,
which I guess also must have helped, as you said, with your regaining
of confidence in the dressage.
I do know that you went on to have and pro and still do have quite a full career
in dressage training just so that people listening can understand your background.
Cause we're going to talk about how you've brought that into
your equine assisted work.
Can you tell us a little bit about the dressage path that you followed?
And then we can return to that in the context of, of the equine
assisted work in a, in a moment.
Carola Beekmann: So of course in the pony club and as a young adult,
I just did what everybody did, the, the, the English way of writing.
And then I stumbled upon a horse, which that didn't work for.
And I got to know a an instructor who, uh, came from the academic
side of the horse training.
So really.
From the old way of horse training and, and instead of.
A horse for the dressage to make us look good and fill our egos with
being beautiful and doing cool stuff totally reversing it and saying,
okay, this is dressage for the horse.
So we look at this horse, we see what this horse needs.
And then we use these particular exercises to build up this horse.
So, strengthening the hind legs flexibility, balance, all that stuff
really tailor made to the horse.
And that is what really got me excited again, also because of the, after
the birth of my daughter, I wasn't interested in, in the competition anymore.
One, because what I saw at the competitions is how other
people mistreated their horses.
That really made me sad.
And the other was really practical with a, with a baby.
You don't have time at least.
I couldn't make the time to compete.
So, reversing that process, like, okay, looking at each individual horse and what
do you need to gain your strength and flexibility, but also their confidence
is yeah, a big shift I made in the horse training and that of course is
in a, has a strong relationship with how I work with the kids I work with and
the adults is not this is the program you we're going to do this program
and you need to fit in the program.
No, we're, this is who you are.
I have this framework, uh, but we're gonna totally tailor make it to your needs.
So that's for me, a big parallel between the horse riding and
equine assisted work we do.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me, tell us a little bit about this horse that changed your,
your way of looking at the dressage.
What, what was going on with this horse?
What was the story?
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
Okay.
His name was Macho.
I got him when he was two and a half and he was my first
horse after my pony career.
He didn't know anything, so I had to train him myself and it was a huge struggle.
Nine years later, after many people had told me to get rid of him because he
was dangerous and whatever I found out that he had trauma from his castration.
Both still physical pain as in back then not being sedated enough.
So he consciously went through that and it made him really stiff in his hind legs.
He really wanted to keep his junk as quiet as possible.
So he, he, he walked really still with his hind legs to, to keep it all as still
as possible, so didn't hurt that much.
So after treating that, I already had an 11 year old horse and then
I could finally start training him.
But yeah, it's, it's needed to be that tailor made way.
To really get him to teach him how to use his hind legs properly and,
and get the flexibility there and get him the confidence that he could
move now and it didn't hurt anymore.
How did you find that was a long journey?
Rupert Isaacson: How did you find out that it was stretched and that's
an interesting things I want a lot of horses must go through that.
Yes.
So yeah.
What did
Carola Beekmann: you find out?
Yeah.
So yes, to say it's like one in six horses are still in some
way suffering from their scar.
So how did I find it out?
I had a massage therapist with him.
She does she had to therapy and she said he, he responds
differently than other horses.
And that was already when he was 10 or 11 and, and I said, because, you
know, I was trying everything, you know, I had saddle maker fits for
his back, whatever, I tried it all.
And then I said, well, okay, you know, I have him since he was two and a half,
uh, nothing really special happened.
So if there is something, it must have been between his
birth or maybe his conception.
And two and a half.
So what happens in that period, his castration.
So she, during the massage, she went with her hand towards, um, his
private parts and he just freaked out.
Okay.
The problem is right there.
And then I had I brought him to an holistic fat and I had to put
some, Um, special cream on the scar to, to, to soften the scar tissue.
So that was one part of it.
And he got like, silver pearls, homeopathic pearls for the trauma release.
And, uh, I didn't know back then what I saw but he started to yawn and, and
chew and lick and yawn and yawn more.
So now I know what that all means, but back then I didn't, you know, the.
stable owner.
She came and stand with me.
She's like, wow, what's going on here?
And I was like, yeah, he's being treated.
So she already knew more than I at that time.
So yeah, that was the start of his healing process.
And he died one day before his 21st birthday, but I got him up to, well, doing
all the highest level massage movements.
He was still crawling, crawling a bit forward, but up to that level.
So, yeah, he, he had a good life after his 11th birthday.
So, but before that it was a big suffer for him.
Yeah.
Interesting that you, you, and I was grateful that I.
Continue to search.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just finding it's, it's very interesting that you, you
had this early trauma yourself, which you then recovered from through horses.
And then you ended up with a special needs horse who had had trauma, physical trauma.
Yes.
But of course the emotional trauma is obviously a given with that kind of an
injury and injury and invasion, you know?
So, so you said that you found your way through.
Also with the training with him, so beyond the actual treatment of the injury and the
trauma, as you said, the release of the trauma, you also found your way through
academic approaches to horse training.
When you say the old way, I presume you mean the Baroque way, like the old
masters way, would that be correct?
Yes,
Carola Beekmann: exactly.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
So what would you
Rupert Isaacson: say marks that out so differently or particularly
differently from the other more modern conventional forms of horse
training that we'd see today?
What's, what's the main difference that you would think in terms
of the benefit for the horse?
Carola Beekmann: Because you're doing it for the horse and not for a test.
It's a completely different way of thinking.
You know, you can, you can write a particular exercise because you're
up for competing and that exercise needs to be shown in your dressage
test, or you can write that particular exercise to build up your horse.
And I, for me, that's.
the main difference that I, I see, or I always look for what does this horse need?
And it can be in hand or lunging, liberty ridden in the long lines.
What makes this horse feel better, uh, mentally, emotionally
what do they like to do?
But also what makes them stronger and, and, and flexible physically.
So, I think the, the different perspective.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But given that we're all horse nerds, we can, we can, on this show, we
can, we can dive in a little deeper.
I'm sure viewers listeners would like to know what exercises did you
do with this horse to Create the well being that hadn't been there.
Can you remember sort of the basic program that you put him through?
I know this obviously would have gone on over a couple of years, but
nonetheless, can you sort of summarize for us what exercises did you do?
A, B, C, D, E and F.
How did you build him up in mind and body to well being?
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
So, in the beginning, it was a lot of work on the circle.
So, I could teach him a proper lateral bending and forward down
and stepping under of the hind leg.
And that was his main issue is that he had such lack of flexibility
in his hind leg because he was used to working, walking so short.
so I really had to teach him that he could lengthen his stride and
really step under his belly on the circle to get that flexibility.
After the circles, I went to the shoulder in.
First I did a lot of it in hand.
So without the weight of of the rider on top.
And yeah, so the shoulder in that both trains, the lateral bending,
the forward down and more exaggerated stepping under what we call on
three tracks of the inside hind leg.
So.
anD when he could do that, we advanced to the horn chaussein, which trains
again, the lateral bending, but in this case, the outside hind leg to
step under, which is a, where the body is slightly different movement
than an inside leg stepping under.
And from that, we progressed to half parts and work periods.
And in that way, got more collection, more weight to the hind legs.
And what I did is after he was good with a particular exercise in hand, I
would start doing them written as well.
So I would add my own weight and get, give all the aids from on
top instead of from the ground.
And that really gave him a lot of confidence because he,
he knew he could do the move.
He had the strength and the balance and well with me on top, he needed to
get a bit more stronger and a bit more balanced, but because he already knew
what to do, it really gave him the confidence to, to do those movements and
doing more and more of that movement.
made him stronger and more confident.
Yeah, he became a different horse.
Rupert Isaacson: So did you find that the in his physical strength
and Suppleness and dexterity.
It's really interesting that you say it had a a mental and
emotional knock on effect.
Because of course, a lot of people have encountered, say,
sport dressage sort of feel.
Okay, that's not dressage, that's stressage.
You know, it's interesting to hear about the dressage being done.
Really is the therapeutic work for a horse.
Would you compare that say to martial arts, like you could use a martial arts
move to fight, or you could also use it to heal an injury you got in a fight,
depending on how the, how the martial arts teacher was looking at that.
Is it something similar to that?
Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.
And, and the other way I compare it to is yoga.
You, you make them flexible and strong in a way that you say, Oh, do
you really need that in daily life?
Because you have that extra strength and extra flexibility.
Daily life gets much more easy to, to get through.
So yeah, it's both the martial arts concept and the yoga concept for me.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's interesting because obviously in a lot of
the therapeutic riding well to date, at least traditionally, that sort of horse
training does not seem to have been a.
A part of of the approaches.
In fact you know, one of the things that struck me quite often when I was
looking at it in the early days was that horses were often clearly in pain or,
you know, stiff and old and arthritic and had been donated to therapeutic riding
places because they were quiet, um, but seems to be hurting in their bodies.
And I think, I think a lot of people have seen this.
Do you feel.
Is, is it something unusual your approach to this equine wellbeing?
We're going to go into your, your, your equine assisted
work in a, in a, in a moment.
Or do you think this is something that's great?
Is it something that's more there in the Netherlands or would you still say within
the, within that equine assisted world, within the Netherlands, your approach
through this kind of old masters yoga for the horse is something a bit unusual?
Whoa.
What, where do you feel it's at
Carola Beekmann: now?
Yeah, there's definitely more and more attention for horse welfare in the, in
the, in the assisted quite assisted world.
In the Netherlands, there are studies being done, there are
Rules and regulations, of course, because we are the Netherlands.
But the, this way of training yeah, I'm, I'm definitely pioneering in that
and I'm trying to bring it over to the.
The, the traditional writing for people with special needs.
And there's definitely interest, but we, we have to see how we can build
it in because of the time limits, as you well aware of these horses need to
work and there's not always, or always not timed for extra time for training.
So we, we, we are building a system as you.
taught me through Athena, like, okay, how can we serve the clients and train
the horses sort of at the same time.
So, I'm, I'm getting my feelers out here and there's interested and we are
we're going to start off with the, the horse boy one with those instructors.
And from that we will deepen and widen their knowledge hopefully
in the, in the near future.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so you feel that one can serve the client.
And the horse at the same time without there having to be a
time conflict in the training.
Can the, can the training itself be the therapeutic session
that you do with the client?
Carola Beekmann: Yes, absolutely.
Like the the way we do the, the back riding.
The horse moves at least in a healthy way.
And if you make a lot of transitions and turns during all the play.
You're also training the horse while he is carrying a kid and
you on top, same for long lines.
If you if you do it in, in in a way that you can serve your clients,
you can also serve your horse.
Because again, you, through the ways that you taught us all The
horse moves in a healthy way.
And when you, can you talk, talk to us how you,
Rupert Isaacson: how do you use the the lunging, the lo, the in-hand work and the
long reigning when you're serving clients?
Can you for, for, I think for a lot of listeners, this
might be something quite new.
Can you talk us through?
Like a session where you would be using those techniques as
part of the client session.
So I think in a lot of people's minds, it's still leading horses around
in circles with somebody on top.
How are you, how are you using things like lunging, long reining and, and in
hand work when you're serving clients?
I think that would be really useful for us to know.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
So,
for example, for the, for the long lining you know, Ideally you go out on trails.
I don't have many here.
I can go around the village, but I do a lot of my work in the arena.
So yeah, I lose, I use all sorts of play equipments and also the, the
the letters in the arena and I add numbers there and then we can just.
Yeah, we do games like tag or hide and seek and all kinds of variations
in which the horse needs to go to the left or go to the right, do
a little trot, do a little walk.
I even have one that can do a few countersteps in the long lines.
So you get the kid on top getting a lot of nice movement imbalance.
Rhythmic and the horse through all the changes of direction and all the
transitions from walk to canter to hold to pot gets his training in the meanwhile.
Okay.
And there's a big difference between that and, and leading the, yeah.
So when you're leading the horse, it goes a bit forward, too much forward down.
And the child on top or the adult on top will lean forward with that with,
and then they, they have to engage their psoas muscles, which gives them
a stress reaction because those, that muscle and that stress reaction is.
Directly connected.
So, you want the horse to be in a, in a nice horizontal, even
a bit heel up position to give the, the person on top the right.
Balance and rhythm that
Rupert Isaacson: you talk about, can you, you said the, so if, if they end
up, if they talk forward and they end up engaging the psoas muscle some people
might think, Oh, well, that's good.
They're engaging a muscle, but you said, no, actually that
creates a stress reaction.
Why, why is there a connection between this thing up the psoas muscle?
If the horse is on the shoulders like that and stress what, what's
going on there physiologically.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
So when, when the horse is on the shoulder, so, well we, the, also the,
the geeky term is walking downhill.
The rider on top or the person on top starts to lean
forward to find their balance.
And to, to be able to do that, you have to engage your psoas muscle, but that psoas
muscle is a very important muscle that is connected to your fight flight response.
So when you are in danger, you need to engage that muscle to
either flee or start fighting.
Or freeze is another response and a very extreme response is faint.
So you, and that creates cortisol, a stress hormone, and that is
what our population of clients.
really struggle off.
They have way too much cortisol, uh, flow flowing through their bodies.
So we want the other hormone, which is called oxytocin.
And that is the happiness hormone or the communication hormone which helps
us to relax and wash out the cortisol.
So, you need a horse that is at least horizontal and preferably hill up moving
in a hill up or uphill, sorry kind of way.
So that the,
Rupert Isaacson: The person on top can relax the saddle.
I see.
Okay.
Exactly.
Yes.
So, that's interesting because I guess in, in, in a lot of the
traditional therapeutic environments, it's, it's been the opposite.
It's been about leading horses rather than say, putting a horse in the
long range to affect that balance.
And you're putting your clients on top of the horse while they're in the long
range so that they can achieve that.
oXytocin, uh, and response and the release of the psoas muscle, is that correct?
So, that's, that's interesting work.
Do you also, can you get, can you get your clients to a point
where they can also be the one?
Not just sitting on the horse in the long range, but maybe doing the long reigning
or doing the lunging or doing the in hand work, can you, can you, can you
make them part of the team in that way?
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
So I have a couple of girls who are in their late teens, early twenties,
and they really are getting interested in, in in the horse training part.
So with them yeah, I teach them how to.
How to launch and how to do a shoulder Indian hand and how to do a horn.
She's Indian vet in hand.
And I tell them what those movements do for the horse.
And that really also builds up their own confidence because
they are now training a horse.
How cool is that?
So, and in the meantime, they're moving around a lot outside in nature.
Helping themselves getting a lot of happy hormones, the oxytocin
and gaining confidence and becoming a part of a community
here that takes care of our horses.
So I always boost them up like, okay, thank you for training my horse.
And now they can do a better job at helping the small children.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Okay.
So your, your old can end up serving your younger clients
and the horse at the same time.
Carola Beekmann: That's what I hope to achieve.
So now it's still separate.
They train the horses and the younger teens come at a separate time, but yeah,
in the future I could see that happening.
That's.
That those two moments will start to merge together.
Rupert Isaacson: That's that's obviously very evolved work to
bring this old Baroque way of training maintaining the horse into
the therapeutic sphere like this.
What got you to make the shift from, okay, I'm a dressage person with
my own background in some trauma.
I've got this horse that's had trauma and I've healed this trauma.
I now.
Decided to not go off and become a school principal, but I've been
working with special needs kids.
One would think, Oh, no brainer, you know, to bring all those things together.
Yet clearly that happened at a certain point in your life.
At what point, when did, when, what you make the decision?
Okay, I'm going to pull all this together.
Carola Beekmann: It must have been 2013 or 2014 when within a couple of days one
neighbor came to me and said, I read this book, I, I'm got it from the library.
You would love it.
And it was The Horseboy, the Dutch version, of course.
And then a few days later, another neighbor came to me and said, I saw a
documentary, it will blow your mind.
And again, it was The Horseboy.
And I was like, okay, this is two times in one week.
There's something there.
And so I read the book and couldn't get my hands on, on the documentary, but okay.
I saw a little clip on YouTube and and because I was already in education,
really working on the special needs side of the spectrum, um, and seeing more
and more kids just not fitting in the.
Normal schools, um, and my big passion for horses.
And then, well, I read about this guy.
His name is Rupert Isaacson and he is eating children on a horse.
And I was like, okay.
And then my dressage mentor at the time came to Texas where Rupert was
at the moment and did a clinic there and they did a webinar together,
like reaching out to the community.
Okay.
If you love training horses.
You love special needs kids, come and join us.
And then I I sent an email and I heard nothing back.
And I sent another email and I heard nothing back.
And then I went to the Facebook page and sent a message there.
And then I got an answer like, we've been emailing you but
you didn't get back to us.
Like, okay, so.
This really took some tenacity to get together.
I didn't want to give up and obviously you didn't either.
So, and then we met basically at a horse training event in
Amsterdam and you did a demo there for horseboy one and my colleagues.
I was already an instructor in that program.
And my colleagues said, this is.
This is your niche.
You, you need to talk to this guy because this is totally you.
And I was not as brave back then, but I did it.
They pushed me towards you and we had a chat and yeah, then everything
started to evolve from there.
I remember the, one of the first things you asked me, like, can you
arrange my book tour next year?
Because your second book came out in the Netherlands.
So, and I said, how are you?
Having no idea what that meant, but I was ready to jump in.
So yeah, then I went to Texas, I think early 2015.
And yeah, I did all the training upside down.
So I started with horseboy five, which is the camps.
And you told me later on, that was a big test because I arrived and you said,
okay, dump your big suitcase in a corner.
Pick your small suitcase.
We're going on a camp in about two hours.
And you told me later on, like, okay, that is a test because if people start
to push back and say, no, I need to do worse by one and then two and then, and
then you would have sent me back to the airport, but yeah, I rolled with it.
So, I got to stay, which I'm very grateful for.
Us too.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's how it all started.
Right.
The, the, the, the, the, the question though, in my mind is it's a brave step,
you know, to say, okay, I'm going to switch careers and I'm going to switch
careers on a act of faith, um, to do something that's quite difficult to
do in a freelance way, self employed.
After you've been, you know, employed through the school system, you've
had a paycheck, you've had a, you know, and, and suddenly no, that's a
completely, completely different way to, to begin to make one's livelihood.
Because you know, one of the things one often sees is that, you know, that,
that it's a temperament thing that some people are very, very well suited to a
sort of entrepreneurial or, or sort of.
Freelancing pioneering sort of way of making a living and other
people absolutely are not and need that security and but there's,
you know, both are equally valid.
What made you take that leap of faith that you felt?
Yeah, yeah, I can make this work after you've been in the school system.
You'd had a paycheck.
You'd had that safety net.
What made you abandon that safety net?
Carola Beekmann: Well, I did it gradually.
I, I started to cut back my school days and, and on the other side,
build up my, my own business.
So I did it in a safe way.
And, and I don't know how it is in all the other countries, but in
the Netherlands, we have a constant
How do you say that?
Lack of teachers.
So I would, I could always fall back, be a teacher again.
So for me, that risk didn't feel as big as for some others, it could be because,
you know, I would always have a job.
They would, they are always in need of teachers and especially
well, with my experience and with a special needs component.
If I say today I would like to work in a school again, I
think I will have 10 job offers.
So, for me, it felt safe enough.
And on the other side, my husband has paycheck every month.
So, yeah, we, we felt like we could, we could do this.
And yeah, there are months, years that I don't get to buy
any new clothes for myself.
But luckily I'm not a, I'm not a very needy person in that way.
So I, so I don't get to spend a lot of money on me, but yeah, that's fine.
I love to be in service.
And not very high maintenance myself, luckily.
So yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you dive in you start your therapeutic program.
Tell us about the, how you got that off the ground because a lot
of people will be listening who are considering making that leap.
What were the first, tell us the stories of those, those first
years, who were the clients that Jump out at you in your memory.
What, what was the type of client you were mainly finding yourself meeting?
And what were the challenges both in terms of the organization of it and in
terms of your horses and that sort of thing that what the unexpected stuff.
So, you know, who did you find in front of you as a client, how did you get it going?
And yeah, what were the challenges?
Carola Beekmann: How did you meet them?
Yeah.
So, in the early days.
Most of my clients were either very young and non verbal kids with autism.
aNd for me, the biggest challenge, the very biggest challenge was to
get over myself and start asking for help because this you can't
do by yourself, it's not possible.
So, it took me a long time to, to, Get my act together and start asking for help.
And the funny thing is I posted something on Facebook, like, okay,
I'm going to do this who would like to, to volunteer here and there.
And I got like within an hour, six horsey people I knew from back way
when, or from now that says, yes, I would like to help with that.
So, that was a big challenge for me because I was so used
to doing everything by myself.
so That was a big, uh, thing for me.
So yeah, the, the challenges of these first couple of kids yeah, becoming
verbal which is it's still miraculous every time you see it happen.
Yeah, luckily we never get used to that.
It never becomes normal because it is special.
wHere was the
Rupert Isaacson: first time you met the horse?
Talk to us about that, that moment and what, what, what, what was
happening with that child, that story?
Carola Beekmann: He was a boy the very first one.
His parents called him a runner.
They were actually afraid to, to come because he would just
run away everywhere in any way.
He was obsessed with traffic signs.
So if there was a traffic sign somewhere around, he just runs towards it.
So, and he had such a.
A tunnel vision for that that the first session we did in, in the
indoor arena with with people.
So there was nothing to crawl through also to, to keep the parents assured
that that kid could not escape.
And but the, the funny thing was in that session, I had my horse in there.
jUst standing there with some hay and he just did not see her.
And well, you know, my mayor, she's white and she's got spots and
like, the Pippi Longstocking horse.
So you really can't miss her.
But he didn't see her.
That was for me, mind blowing.
And then the second time I put the traffic sign on her halter, like the
triangle sign says beware of horses.
And then he saw her.
And then he started to, to interact with with her.
That was, um, a moment I will never forget, like, okay, how
can you not see a complete horse?
But he, yeah.
So, and then He was not okay with riding with me.
So I put him in the long lines on, in the saddle together with his dad.
And we just rode through the forest.
We had traffic signs with us.
For example, the sign for the blue sign for going left or right.
And we presented to them, to him.
And so he could make choices like, would you like to go left
or right here or straight ahead?
And first he started pointing and later on he would, would say the words like
left, right, or he would, I would ask him questions like, would you like to walk?
Would you like to trot?
And then he would say trot, and then we trotted a bit.
So through those choices we gave him with the traffic signs we, we gave, he
started to, to use his first words and also Another very important traffic
sign for him was the stop sign because, well, we needed to make it safe if
you would go, uh, on a walkabout around his house, his parents needed
him to stop, you know, at the curb before just running in front of a car.
So we used a traffic sign to specifically teach him how to stop.
So we would just hold up the sign and yell like, and because of that sign, he
would he would go with it without a sign.
You could stop for, well, as long as you want, but because of that sign, he he
he was into it and we got to teach it.
And, um, Later on, his parents could make a sequence of
traffic signs around their home.
beCause what happened is because he was so into the traffic
signs, he would just go, go, go.
And then he was tired.
And then they had to carry him all the way home.
So they could make routes in their neighborhood that
wouldn't be too long for him.
And he would end up at home.
So they make like treasure hunts for, for signs, but they knew
exactly which route it was.
So, yeah.
And then he involved to makes off cars.
So, and in the place I was working, it was a riding school and a camping site.
So we had a lot of cars also on site.
So, we would start talking about all these makes and models of cars and
reading the the plate numbers of the car.
So yeah, that's how we got him to, to speak.
And also he was very into Mickey Mouse clubhouse.
So.
He sang those songs endlessly and yeah, that's helped him become verbal.
Rupert Isaacson: So you really tailored it to his interests.
That's what's interesting too, is you said, you know, when he
didn't, he didn't, he only wanted to get up there with his dad.
That's obviously quite an unusual approach for a lot of therapeutic
places because, you know, they wouldn't, They wouldn't put a parent up you
know, to make it safe for a child.
And then you, you use the long reins to sort of basically create an equine
environment for the father and the son.
Yeah.
That's
Carola Beekmann: wonderful.
Yeah.
So first we, we just, yeah, first we just put up the dads and we just walk around
the play area at the campsite and the dad would be on top and the kid would be.
I don't know on the trampoline or something.
And then we stopped next to the trampoline and exactly.
So show that, so that show that dad enjoys it and that horses can be ridden.
You know, if you've never been around a horse, who knows
you can sit on top of them.
So, and then at one moment we stopped like straight next to the trampoline and
the dad invited him to give him a hug.
And there he was, he was sitting on top too.
And it was first for a couple of seconds.
He started to wiggle a bit.
So, okay, put him back on the trampoline.
And then the next time he would just sit and we could just, and we went
off to into the forest and yeah.
You could actually see his all expression in his face change
as soon as he was on the horse.
It was actually a, a former school colleague of mine that came to, to
volunteer and watch it one time.
She was a kindergarten teacher since forever and she said.
This kid just totally changed when he sat on a horse like, okay, cool,
because you know, I walked behind, so I see the back of the deck.
That's cool information.
So yeah, it's it's one of those things that yeah.
And another story is another young kid who started talking with me
and mom told his speech therapist and she didn't believe it because.
At speech therapy, he did not talk.
So I said to mom, bring the speech therapist with you next Saturday.
And.
Well, the brave lady did and the cool outcome was that from that moment on,
she didn't do her speech therapy in her office, but in the playground next door.
So yeah, she, she,
Rupert Isaacson: she actually moved outside with the kid
after watching you work.
Carola Beekmann: Exactly.
So she, she.
Changed her whole approach with him and hopefully other kids after him.
That's usual, that's unusual.
So yeah.
So yeah, love that.
And, and it was, it was cool that she, he came out to, in her own time.
Without anybody paying her to come and see what we were doing.
So yeah, that was that was another cool experience.
And the other, one of the early girls that really sticks in my
mind is was an eight year old one.
And They couldn't take perspective, so she had high levels of anxiety
for example, when her mom left the room, she, when her mom was out of
sight, she thought mom was dead.
So usually around two and a half, three years, kids start to understand
that if they can't see something, it's still there like peekaboo
games like that hide and seek.
bUt this girl never got through that milestone.
So, during the intake and all the questions we asked beforehand, we kind
of figured that out together with mom.
So we started to do all the games and all our activities around
perspective taken, and it was so cool.
It was actually filmed because a colleague of mine was doing
her thesis on horseboy method.
So she filmed every session and during session three, halfway the
girl was making a drawing and she turned it around and showed her dad.
He said, okay, dad, look, that's you.
And that is me.
And that's mom.
And that's my little brother and my colleague.
And I, I remember so clearly I, she was Filming over my shoulder.
I looked at her, she looked at me like, wow.
She got it now.
She, she now understands that, um, if you want to show something to somebody,
you need to take, turn it around.
But of course it's much bigger than that.
Because mom told us that she could leave the room now and she could take the walkie
talkie up to the attic and do some laundry while the kid was downstairs playing.
And that was impossible.
They went to the cinema.
The girl just walked away from her, went to the big poster and start
talking to another girl about the movie.
She, yeah, it changed their whole world.
Just that working on that one milestone yeah, was huge for that family.
So, being a part of those changes for families, changes for the better,
it's what makes it all worthwhile.
You know, scooping poo in the mud and all of that.
We know all about that.
I do it happily.
Swimming in poo.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: For those moments.
In Germany at the moment.
Yeah.
What, what, there's a couple of things that, that stand out.
So you, you, you casually mentioned that first day, Oh, we just, you know, long
lined the horse up to the trampoline.
And of course the kid must've been bouncing pretty hard on the trampoline.
Mm hmm.
And you, you casually got there with your horse and that means you
must have done quite a lot of bomb proofing training with your horse.
That, that's, that you must have done a lot of this.
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
So everything we think could happen during what we call play dates we train.
And there was one time a volunteer surprised me and it bit me in the butt.
As she pulled out a soap bubble thingy.
And starting to blow soap bubbles, which my horse had never seen before.
Luckily it was my daughter on the horse and not a client, but my horse spooked.
So, that was another lesson.
lIke, okay.
If you have volunteers, make sure that they ask you before they do because
you know, you need to have checked that your horse is okay with it.
So, yeah, they need to be brave.
And my mare is actually not the bravest but she is trained to be okay with
a lot but, yeah for, in that case, I like the alpha horses the best for
this work because they are brave and used to problem solving and they're
usually okay with, with new things.
So you show them and they're like, what's this?
Oh, okay.
So yeah, that's the kind of horse I prefer to work with.
I have one here now, one out of four.
hE's a superstar, but you know, with the others we work too, but you know, I always
have to, um, be very aware that they you know, no horses, 100 percent bone proof.
They don't exist, but you can get them to a very high level, but,
um, it takes constant training.
So I put.
Weird objects in and around my arena or, or paddock like, tarpaulin
that's just going everywhere.
What, yeah, whatever I can figure.
And I do like my leaf blowing of the arena, right where they
standing next to it in the paddock.
So they're all used to big noises and stuff.
So Yeah, it takes
Rupert Isaacson: sorry.
And you keep that sort of going all the time.
Do you have that sort of a constant?
So they're always exposed to this sort of thing, the horses.
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
You know, I'm what, what I usually do is just, I, we do whatever we need to do.
And we're not like, Oh, we can't do this because the horses are there without
the clients, of course, you know, when the clients are not here, we just do
the leaf blowing and mowing the lawn and driving around with a tractor
and do whatever needs to be done.
Because.
You know, they're safe in there.
And of course we keep our eye on them.
And when they spook, we give them some time, but yeah, it's we, we
treat them like, okay, this is normal.
We, we are used to this.
So, and every now and again, I introduce something new just to keep them flexible
in their minds like, Oh, what's that?
And, and you can tell, you know, one horse just looks at it and go
sniffle and he's okay with it and the other one runs away as far as he can.
And then a few days later, he goes to meet that new thing.
So, yeah, but do you find that with bond
Rupert Isaacson: proofing, you have to keep it going as a constant.
I mean, that, that's definitely something we've found is that when it comes to
keeping our horses bond proof, we, we can't assume because they met a red
umbrella and were okay with it three months ago that they don't have amnesia
about that three months afterwards.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, very true.
And, and the, the one upside of me not having my pasture on my own terrain, but
I have to walk down the street through the village is that they see traffic
twice a day and, you know, it's tractors big trucks cyclists umbrellas, or when
a new girl is born, there are pink flags at the end in the street or when there's
carnival, you know, the garbage cans.
So they see that every day and we never know what we see, you
know, some things are always there and drive by as a surprise.
So, that's kind of like for the big stuff, a constant.
Yeah, right.
I prefer to call it bravery training, by the way.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Right.
Absolutely.
I, I, I think it's a great word.
It's something which I think isn't talked about enough with bond proofing,
bravery training, uh, desensitization.
People have these different names for it is that often the, there's
an assumption, do it once that's it.
And of course, I found, and I guess you must have found over the years too,
is that, no, actually, one needs to kind of do refreshes fairly regularly.
Or the horses can decide, no, actually, I'm scared of that thing I wasn't
scared of, you know, 10 minutes ago.
Yeah, very true.
But, you know, that kind of thoroughness of training, I think, is something
unusual within the equine assisted world.
I think that quite often I've seen people really working within sort of bubbles.
And then of course, if something unforeseen happens, which inevitably
it's going to at some point, and particularly if one's working, you know,
an autistic population or somewhere, the, the client themselves is going
to do something pretty unpredictable.
That then the horse may or may not be ready for that.
And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a wonderful thing that you've,
you're covering those bases, you know, from the get go.
There was something else which jumped out to me about that first story.
So you said, you know, on that first day that he was in there,
you had the horse available.
There's the horse eating hay there in the arena.
Okay, there's wool.
So the kid can't run away from the arena, but he's running.
When he wasn't going to interact with the horse that first
day, what was your strategy?
What did you do to get interaction with him, say, okay, well, if the horse
isn't going to work, what, what, what other tricks have I got up my sleeve?
What did you do to establish relationship?
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
Well, it started with the preparation.
We didn't have an empty arena.
So with the jumping poles and cones and traffic signs we
made streets and junctions.
So when he came in and he saw that play area, he was instantly in play.
So all we had to do is shadow him and, and verbalize what he
was doing and what he was seeing.
So you set up the street
Rupert Isaacson: in the arena before he went in?
Yes,
Carola Beekmann: exactly.
So we, we tailor make the environment.
as part of the, the preparation before the kids come.
So when they come, they come in this place where they love to be.
And it can be anything and everything.
It depends on their interest.
Rupert Isaacson: So do you find out from the family before they come
out what the passionate interests or obsessive interests of the child are?
Yes.
Carola Beekmann: So yeah, we, we do an intake with the parents.
So we have a very extensive chat with them where we make notes where we
want to know anything and everything.
Like what does he like?
What does he what is he afraid of?
Which sensory triggers are nice for him?
Which one are not.
And the main thing is of course, the two things is what are his
interests and what are the goals?
Because we always use like.
The interest as a sort of wrapping paper around the goals.
So the kids never know that they were working on goals.
They just lay their favorite thing.
And then in the meantime we, as adults work on the goals specific to that child.
So yeah, the kids come to play and there are horses and you can sit or lie on
top of horses and you can write them.
But not necessarily, so a lot of it is also playing outside, having
a, a safe and natural environment where the kids can explore and
do whatever they like to do best.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: they're not going to interact with the horse.
If they don't want to get on the horse, you have plenty of
other stuff for them to do.
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
Yeah.
We have swings, trampolines.
We have a pond so they can fish they, you know, yeah all sorts of play equipment.
So, yeah, they don't have to interact with the horses.
They are available.
But if they are into other stuff, then that's what we'll do.
So I have like two brothers.
They, they, they love to play soccer.
So we start with that.
And then I introduce a big yoga ball and then we play soccer with the horse.
But if they're not into that, yeah.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's, that's really unusual because you're talking
about a level of training through the in hand work, the long reining, the
lunging, as you've said, that the, the bond proofing or bravery training,
as you call it That requires a bit of an obsessive, you know, horseman's
approach and then you're willing to abandon the horse in a moment if
that's not what the kid wants to do.
And you've got other things to stimulate the learn.
I think that they're remarkable because As you and I know, I mean,
most of us who are in the horse world, I'm, I'm guilty as charged.
With such horse obsessives, it's hard for us to necessarily move away from the horse
if, if that's not where the person is.
And to be able to put that kind of level of Detail into the preparation of
the horse yet not be attached to them.
Interacting with the horses is unusual.
Do you find that it's easy to train your volunteers and your, your
colleagues in this because they presumably also have to have the
same approach to the horse training?
Or do you find that this is something that you have to.
teach horse people a skill really to, to not be so attached to the horse
while at the same time being really attached to the paradoxically to
the, to the preparation of the horse.
Do you find this as a hard concept for people?
Carola Beekmann: Well, part of when they start, I always introduce
them to the eight guidelines of movement method and horseboy method.
So, you know, as a main thing, follow the child.
I always say it as soon as the child comes through the gates,
they they do what they do.
And, and we interact with them and we see what they're doing and we play with them.
And you know, we, we try to set this up so they will engage in
activities we have, um, thought of could help with their goals.
But the kid is in charge and that for some is a very new concept because
well, especially in the Netherlands, there are many rules and regulations
and, well, school system generally around the world is, okay, teacher
tells you what to do and you do it.
Or at home, parents tells you what to do and you do it.
And so to totally reverse that.
But I find it that because you totally reverse it, uh, they get it.
So we don't do something in between.
We just say, okay, it's in charge and we follow.
And I always get them to observe one or two sessions.
And then I say, okay now you can be a more active part.
And I always, always.
As well, say when the kid starts to approach you, of course, you can interact.
You can't stay there and say, okay, I'm only a blobservant today.
So if they seek you out for interaction, you interact and I will
be there and guide you through it.
So yeah, to, to totally reverse that concept of being a leader.
Normally, but now if that leadership to the child yeah, they usually get it
and also because they, they see the joy and, and of the children and they see
it working, you know, you see that it works, so you don't have to question it.
Rupert Isaacson: And the involvement of parents and family and other other
therapists is again, quite unusual.
I mean, a lot of the places I've, I've gone to watching work is
everything's kept very separate.
When you're integrating like that obviously I can totally
see why that would work so well.
Do you ever find that it can be tricky?
Like do you find sometimes that a parent might get pushy with the kid
saying, Oh, you know, do what Mr.
Corolla is saying, or.
A therapist might, another therapist might say, no, no, that's wrong.
We should do it my way.
Or do you, do you find on the whole, actually people integrate really well?
What, what's been your experience, positive and negative with that?
Carola Beekmann: Well, the positive is because I, I explained the, the eight
guidelines as well as to the parents, you know, also of course, the, the,
the neuroscience behind what we do.
But also the volunteers and the colleagues, and okay,
this is how we work here.
This is how we do it.
And usually they, they, they just go with it.
And there's one time, uh, I later found out that this was a dad with narcissism.
I didn't know at the time.
But he, he, despite me explaining the neuroscience and the eight guidelines.
He just the first couple of times he went with it, and then he he decided
that I was wrong and he was right.
So yeah, that that family didn't no longer come because the boy
also, you know, loyalty to dad.
If that says it's not fun, we're not going anymore.
But he turned out to have a narcissistic personality disorder.
So that was the one time I was like, okay, I don't know if I would have
more knowledge about narcissism if I could have avoided that situation.
But his ex wife said he had XYZ therapists and he all went two or three times to
that person and just went away again.
So, I wasn't the only one.
So that one still puzzles me a bit, like, okay, could I
have handled that differently?
But usually.
It's they respond very positively to the approach we have.
Rupert Isaacson: So here's another question.
I know that the Netherlands is a little bit like the, like Germany where I am,
where in some ways it's really good that you'll get, there's, there's, there's
understanding from within government of, of the value of equine assisted work.
But at the same time unless one goes through, you know, very, very set.
Pathways, which then can end up being quite constraining to find the funding.
How do you find the funding?
Because you're very much pioneering, you know, This much more child led approach.
How, how do you find the funding to make that happen within the Netherlands system?
I think a lot of people would be quite, yeah, to know.
Carola Beekmann: So in the Netherlands every municipal is responsible
for the well being for everybody who lives in their community.
So the funding is very decentralized.
So it used to be through the, the national government.
Now it's with the municipalities and well, they went through a learning
curve and now decided that it's for them easier to only work with big contractors.
So we speak mental health healthcare organizations.
So, for people like me who are independent what we now have to do, so like before
I could be like a main contractor for my municipal that changed now.
So now I have to find a big organization to be a subcontractor with.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you have to partner up and subcontract.
Okay.
Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.
And then every municipal has like a welfare team.
So when there's a kid who has challenges the family can go to the,
to the welfare team and they get a counselor and with the family and the
counselor, they see which which kind of care, uh, guidance would be helpful.
So the other thing is I need to get myself known with those welfare counselors.
So they know that I exist.
Because I'm a subcontractor.
So I'm not like on the big list.
So yeah, that takes some time for people to get to know you.
And then when you have some successful clients who with very happy parents,
happy clients and goals met then your name starts to get around.
So it, it, it takes time to, to make yourself known.
And the paperwork takes time and, and yeah, you really need to, to dig into it.
Some choose to not work with the funding and say, I only take private clients so
that, that the parents funded themselves.
I do have some, but for me, I find it very important to keep collaborating
with my local Municipals, because otherwise, the kids of the people who
can't afford it, which are usually the kids who need it most I don't get to
serve if I only do the private funding.
So, For me I'm really really invested a lot and still investing
a lot because I just moved to this place one and a half year ago.
It's, uh, sort of besides my earlier area.
So I need to invest in getting to know all the.
local welfare counselors here to get my name out.
So, yeah, it it takes a lot of tenacity, but for me, it's worth it
and important to, to especially need, reach those kids that need it the most.
So
Rupert Isaacson: what you're talking about here is, is a sort of bureaucratic stuff
you've got to do on top of running of the barn, the You know, looking after the
horses, the training of the horses, the obviously the serving the clients that,
you know, and you've, you've bootstrapped this up independently over a decade or so.
What about burnout?
I mean, this has been a lot of, a lot of work, a lot of responsibility.
Have you experienced that?
And if so, what have you done about it?
Because I think this is something that faces a lot of people
that are getting into it.
Yes.
Yeah.
And what would your advice be?
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
So, yes, that happened.
Christmas 2020, we drove home from my mum's and I just started to cry.
And I had no idea why and I couldn't stop.
sO after sometime I met with a psychiatrist and I had the very nasty
combo of depression with burnout and which is tricky because for depression, they
say, okay, go out, move, be in nature.
But with burnout, if you do one step too many, you take three steps back.
So to balance that out was a very tricky and long.
Way to come back from and well, at first I definitely couldn't
do without the medication.
So, I started with that and they knocked me off my feet every time I
had to go up my dosage, I, it took me a month to, to get regulated again.
So that in itself was.
A very yeah, hectic time and yeah, I slept and I slept and I slept and I was
up for about a couple of hours a day.
I drove to my horses usually crying to, went there, took
care of them and drove back.
I could hear one playlist.
Music I couldn't, um, bear anything else.
So, and you know, I, I ate some and I took care of my daughter and that was it.
And the rest I slept.
And so that was a dark time.
How long did that, how long
Rupert Isaacson: did that, that, that really extreme crisis time last Mm,
Carola Beekmann: I would say about a half year before.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
In that time, you presumably had to put your therapeutic work on pause.
Yes.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
Yeah.
I couldn't work.
So, luckily I'm a member of what we call in Dutch a Broodfonds,
which translates to bread fund.
It's a group of entrepreneurs who put money aside in a locked savings account.
And when some, uh, anybody out of that group gets ill,
we donate money to each other.
That's interesting.
Is that something,
Rupert Isaacson: is that a tradition within the Netherlands?
Carola Beekmann: It's, it's new ish but it's, it's it's way cheaper
and better than your disability insurance, because especially in
the horse business, I, I try to.
insure myself and it would have cost me 800 euros a month.
So because I work with horses, that's a high risk business.
So, so through this broad phones you know, we, we help each other
and we also have network meetings.
So we, we know each other.
So that makes it more like a, a tribe thing or a community thing.
Like, okay, we take care of each other.
It's not this big insurance company who gets to make a
lot of money over our backs.
And
Rupert Isaacson: is there any sort of government or
oversight over the Braapfond?
I mean, are they, or is it just like, what's to stop somebody from running
off with the money or like, how's that
Carola Beekmann: organized?
Yeah.
No.
All the, you know, everybody has their own savings account, but they're locked.
So I can't get money out of it.
So I can put money into it every month.
bUt only the secretary of the treasurer of our Broodfond can get
money of, get, gets yeah, gives notice to, to the big organization.
So like, okay, this person needs a donation and it's all, all in you know,
you, when you make a lot of money, you donate more than when you make a little
bit money, you donate a bit less and then or put less in your savings account.
So it's all like balanced out, like, and
Rupert Isaacson: was this a fund that already existed or was
this something you put together
Carola Beekmann: with, with the group?
No, no, no.
It's, it's an existing thing in the Netherlands.
So
Rupert Isaacson: who's to pay into?
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
So you, you pay like a monthly fee or no.
You pay yourself in your closed bank account.
You pay yourself, but the, the treasurer can get money out of it to help.
My
Rupert Isaacson: colleagues got it and that, and so there's
sort of legal oversight of
Carola Beekmann: this.
Yes.
It's all with, with the taxes and everything that's all figured out.
So it's all, how long has
Rupert Isaacson: this been a thing in the Netherlands?
Carola Beekmann: I don't know.
I should have, I should look that up, but yeah, there are quite a
Rupert Isaacson: girl or is it like 20 years or what do you think?
Carola Beekmann: I heard about it.
Just before I joined because I saw this thingy that there was a meeting for new
members to to to tell us You know, what is this about and I was like, okay, I don't
have an insurance yet Maybe this is a good
Rupert Isaacson: idea used to you when you first heard about it.
Yes.
Okay.
So maybe it's something relatively recent within
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, I don't know, maybe five to ten years or
so I'd have to look it up, but
Rupert Isaacson: that's really, that's really interesting.
I'd be actually, I just sort of want to do a bit of a heads up then
to the, the listeners, listeners.
Do you have, if you're listening from another country, is there
anything similar to this?
Because.
I have not heard of this before.
I can't, I don't think this exists within the UK.
I certainly don't think this exists within the USA.
I haven't heard of it in Germany.
Maybe it's there.
Tell us if it is, because this is, this is really useful information,
I think, for people who are doing this sort of work that we're doing.
Carola Beekmann: Absolutely.
Yeah.
So the, the broad phones, they, they kept me alive while I was sick.
That that's the, the, the conclusion of this of this talk about the broad phones.
They, because when I was sick, I, they, all the other members donated
to me every month so I could, uh, keep eating and feeding my horses.
And if.
If that hadn't be, I had to sell them all and, uh, probably ended back up
in, in the school somewhere again.
So they, they really saved my butt.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: okay, so then by the time you ended up, you know, opening
for business again when you felt that you had gone through some recovery, did
you find that having spent some time effectively as a client, Um, rather than
as a provider, a service user, rather than a service provider, if you like
that, did that deepen and inform your practice, your equine assisted practice?
Yeah.
What wisdom did that bring?
Carola Beekmann: Yeah, it, it, it makes you more aware of what
families deal with go through.
yoU know, I had the trauma for when I was young, but you know, I was over that.
I dealt with it.
So it, Kind of goes to the back of your mind.
But going through this and also dealing with.
thE doctors and the medicine and the psyche the psyche psychiatrist
and that is yeah, obviously.
And also the process of getting diagnosed, it turned out that one of the main
reasons I got so burned out and depressed is I turned out to have ADHD which was
undiagnosed You know, especially people, my age, that was a boy's thing, right?
That girls have ADHD is well, not when I was young, that was not common knowledge.
I don't even know if boys were.
Diagnosed back then, or they was just busy and irresponsible
and always up to something.
So that really helped me heal because I now could figure out like
admin work was like horror for me.
I couldn't get anything done.
You know, my mind went everywhere.
I had my to do list and at the end of the morning I had done nothing
or at least completed nothing.
so That was one of the.
Big frustrations and, and causes of my burnout.
And there was Murphy's law, there was all kinds of stuff going on, but
anyway, going through that again with the diagnosis process and dealing
with the doctors and the medication.
yeAh, it really gave me a deeper sense of like, okay.
This is what these families have to deal with.
And they usually don't come to me first, you know, they have usually tried
anything and everything before they get tipped off that this also exists
because it's not so well known yet.
sO yeah, it it really has deepened my understanding.
And also it, it urged me to seek other forms of healing for myself.
So what so in the beginning I couldn't work with my horses, you
know, from the medication I got so dizzy, so I couldn't lunge a horse.
I couldn't sit on a horse, but as soon as I could I had to change perspective again.
You know, I normally, I ride to train my horses and now my horses had to help.
So I started to ride for me.
And that was a new experience for me because I was always so
focused on this horse needs this.
So we're going to do this particular training today.
And, but luckily because I did that, I had horses who could
carry me and right for me.
So, that was a big thing that helped me turn it around.
And the other thing I met was a thing called TRE, that is tension
or trauma releasing exercises.
A lady I know she already told me about it, that she did
that, my time wasn't there yet.
But then I saw, okay, I think I want to try it because I got to a level
like, okay, I can function again.
But there was like this plateau, I couldn't get any further than that.
And then I started the TRE sessions with her and that just, um, helped me so much.
What it basically is, you do a couple of exercises to exhaust your muscle groups,
and then you either stand against the wall or you lay down and you start to
tremble and with that trembling trauma.
Tramples out of yourselves.
That's like the short of it.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Like when a hunted deer goes, gets the shakes off to getting exactly,
Carola Beekmann: exactly like babies and animals.
They do it themselves.
Okay.
We, as people have learned that that is weird behavior somewhere.
So we stopped doing it.
But it's, it's a natural thing.
And when your body knows how to do it again without feeling
awkward It's, it's very healing.
So because trauma gets in all your cells, it's not just in your brain,
it's, it's so for me, what first happened is all my old physical
traumas, like my knee and my ankle and my calf, they all started to dissolve.
You know, they, they were usually okay, but when you
get really tired, you feel it.
I I'm, I'm sure, you know, it's like you're, when you're really
tired, like, oh yeah, that injury over there is now bugging me.
That's gone.
That was the first thing that happened.
And then my, yeah, my mind just opened up.
There was room for new space.
I could read again.
I could study again.
That was all not possible.
I couldn't do anything new before that.
So, yeah, that was a big thing for me.
And then the icing on the cake is after a five year search, we found this new home.
with on a little plot.
So it's a tiny little farm where I can finally have my, my
horses and my practice at home.
Yeah, that was the icing on the cake and my
Rupert Isaacson: finally working out of another writing stable.
Carola Beekmann: Yes, exactly.
Which was cool for quite a while, but the, the longstanding wish is
to just have my own place you know, because, you know, when you're
in a writing stable, there are.
Other people that ride there and you always have to compromise and, and
do a lot of planning and here it's just, it's me, you know, I can do
whatever, whenever, uh, and it takes a lot of work that comes with it.
. But you know, I do it for ourselves.
It's our own place.
So, and I love to be outside and yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that, that, that's something definitely, which
I've experienced both sides of, you know, for years and years.
I had my own, we had our own place in Texas and then Mm-Hmm.
to Germany, you know, young kids.
So suddenly it's like, well, no, let's not immediately start another farm.
Let's.
Work out of a riding stable.
And that was it.
It worked.
We learned how to dance that dance that you're talking about around other
people whose attitudes and horses may not be quite as attuned to the needs
of the clients as as as one might like.
And now I'm back to having my own place again and can control the environment.
And there's definitely.
I'm very, very glad I went through that education process of no longer being
complacent and being able to understand that when people are working out of
riding stables, which a lot of people have to how much kudos to give them
that they can get that work done, you know, dancing around other people.
But yes, it's, it's definitely.
So much nicer if one can have control.
So now you, there you are, you've, you've, you've come through, you've
built the thing, then you collapsed, then you built it up again, and here you are
now, here you are, stronger than ever, with your own, operating out of your
own place, doing this cutting edge work.
I also know that you have recently, despite being a maverick and
having gone outside of the regular.
You know, therapeutic riding associations, systems, and so on, as
many of us have and have made it work.
You have now actually begun a collaboration with the Royal Dutch
Horse Association, which would be the equivalent in the UK of the British Horse
Society or, or Spot Island or the U.
S.
Equestrian Federation.
You know, the, the, you've suddenly found yourself, interestingly,
back with the mainstream.
Can you tell us a bit about this collaboration?
What is it?
What's it doing and how, how'd you get
Carola Beekmann: So what we has just have established recently, , is a
new collaboration with our Royal Dutch Horse Association, , which
for the Dutchies is KNHS.
wE now have jumped through enough hoops to become part of the
mandatory training, , for continuous professionalization, , for instructors.
So in the Netherlands you become an instructor, but then you have to
keep up your knowledge and skills.
So, there is a select, , group no, not a group.
It, well, there are select selected courses you can do to, to get points to,
to keep your license as an instructor.
And just last week we got the notification that we are approved for
that program for horseboy method one.
So, which means that now we can bring horseboy method one into the riding
schools the general riding schools, of course, but especially the riding
schools for special needs people.
So the therapeutic riding center and what really for me has been a drive to do that
is what we talked about earlier is that.
Sometimes what we see in those riding centers, it's, it's the calm
older horses that work there, but they, they, , have their issues.
And that's why they're quiet.
That can be, but what we also see is that the horses don't
get better from that work.
They get worse.
So they get worn out at some point.
So to reverse that, or at least help.
To keep those horses in better shape or get them in better shape.
I'm very passionate about bringing horseboy methods to those riding schools.
So they can see a new way, another way, which doesn't take more time.
But it is so much better for the welfare for the horse, but also because of the
effect we talked about earlier, we'll get.
More benefits for the writers.
So, yeah, it's very exciting.
We're going to start training in February at a therapeutic writing center.
sO yeah, it's, I hope it's going to be a success and get the word
out that there is another way.
Which helps to, yeah, to have the horses happier and
healthier and get better results.
So, yeah, you, you have to be the maverick and then in the
Netherlands also be willing to go back into mainstream and see.
If you can on the edges of mainstream, make the mainstream a bit wider.
So that's the next
Rupert Isaacson: big project edging the mainstream's comfort
zone a little further out.
Exactly.
Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
Just nudging them out of their comfort zone.
So yeah, I I'm very excited about that.
Well that's
Rupert Isaacson: a quite an achievement and quite an achievement to come
back because you know, you, you said that the burnout, you know, which
happened in 2020 You know, if that was taking sort of a year or so to, to.
Carola Beekmann: No, closer
Rupert Isaacson: to two years.
Yeah.
So really get back from it.
Yeah.
I can imagine.
I mean, most burnouts, it's at least a two year period.
And then to, to, to surge back like this new farm, new place collaboration
with the Royal Dutch Horse Society with their continuing education.
That's, that's, you know, hats off to you Carola.
That's really something.
Yeah.
We are coming out of towards wrap up time.
Is there any way people can contact you?
Whether for trainings, whether for inspiration, whether for advice,
whether for obviously if they want to bring their children or
young adults to you as clients.
How do people contact you?
Where do they find you?
Carola Beekmann: Okay.
There are several ways.
Of course I have my own website, Corolla, BigMan nl I'm on Facebook.
Can you spell that for us?
It'sa.
Rupert Isaacson: BigMan.
How do you spell Corolla?
BigMan nl.
Oh,
. Carola Beekmann: Yeah.
C-A-R-O-L-A And then B-E-E-K-M-A-N nl.
Okay.
So The same for Facebook.
I'm also on LinkedIn and we also have a Facebook page called
horse boy, the Netherlands.
I'm one of the admins there.
So if you reach out to there you will get me directly or
people will refer you to me.
anD there is a brand new website, totally Dutch that's
called movement method dot NL.
We have been working on that with five, six colleagues for a while now, and it's.
Not completely finished, but it's up.
And so on the contact page, of course you can also reach me and that's
info at movement method dot NL.
So yeah, that's how people can find me.
And of course, through the NTLS.
co website, I'm on the providers page and also on the trainers page.
Can I give you a little?
Rupert Isaacson: So, I just want to, I want to do a little big ups
for the, for the, for the listeners.
In terms of not just the work with the with, with special needs, which
I know you're extremely good at.
You're also very, very good producer of horses in your own right.
And Carola has been very modest in the course of this
interview listeners, but she's.
She, she, she mentioned very briefly some of the international work she's done.
But one thing I can say is that I know relatively few people who can
really rehab and muscle horses to the extent that I have seen Carola do it.
Carola, I've seen you take a number of horses, which were absolutely
messed up in the back and in the hocks and in the stifles and turn them.
Around into meta horses, and a lot of people who know the work that I do with
horses know that, for example, with my lunging work, I am a absolute flag
flying user of side reins, etc, etc.
And so, of course, there's always this.
controversy between should you use side reins or should you not?
But I can absolutely say that Corolla is one of the few people I've seen who,
without the use of the side reins, can absolutely, absolutely, miraculously
turn a horse around in, in terms of its muscling and in the, in the lunging.
The reason I'm saying all this is that if you're, if you're looking for
help, advice, training, don't just go through the, it's not confined to the
equine assisted work that she does.
I really would wholeheartedly recommend Corolla because she's
not going to say it herself.
So I'm bigging her up now.
I would really wholeheartedly recommend you, Corolla, if someone's got a horse
that needs, um, training or rehabbing.
Whether or not.
You're in the Netherlands because I know that you can do this.
She also hasn't said this cause she's too modest.
I know that she can do this long distance through WhatsApp
and online training programs.
So, give us your, give us your website again, Carola.
Carola
Carola Beekmann: Beekman dot com.
Okay.
Very Carola.
So in, if for English you just call, you just spell Beekman, then you get it right.
And
Rupert Isaacson: it's, and it's all, it's all little letters, right?
Carola Beekman.
com.
Yes.
Carola Beekmann: Yes.
And there is an English section on my Dutch website.
So, for all the horse training stuff.
So.
Rupert Isaacson: So do reach out to her people, because she,
she, she does know her stuff.
And I have watched a number of horses that were...
Not, I would say the most obvious contenders turn under Carola's tutelage
into, like I said, meta horses, including that black and white spotted
mare, which she referred to, which was probably one of the weakest backed horses
I've ever seen when you first got it.
And the way you turned that horse around was frankly, you know, astonishing.
So hats off to you.
Thank you.
Pleasure.
All right.
Any last words before we, before we sign
Carola Beekmann: off?
No, just thank you for having me.
And yeah, please reach out if you, uh, want help or advice or coaching.
I'm, I'm very eager and happy to share all the knowledge.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you for coming on, on the show.
We're going to head out now and get horses in from the field in the
rain and take them back to, I'm sure you're going to do the same thing
cause it's raining like crazy here in Northern Europe at the moment
and has been for the last six weeks.
I'm sure some of the listeners will know exactly what we're talking about.
And we look forward to just keeping tabs on your work and
seeing how you develop further.
Yeah.
Carola Beekmann: Okay.
Thank you so much for having me and it was a pleasure to chat.
Likewise.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Speak soon.
thank you for joining us.
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
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