WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:45.663 --> 00:01:46.262 Lauren: spoiler alert. 00:01:46.262 --> 00:01:47.342 We are live now. 00:01:47.382 --> 00:01:47.602 Who? 00:01:48.272 --> 00:01:48.572 Duke: Here we go. 00:01:49.502 --> 00:01:51.122 Well, she blew the punchline. 00:01:51.932 --> 00:01:56.702 Now everybody knows who show how. 00:01:56.852 --> 00:01:57.392 Stranger. 00:01:57.452 --> 00:01:58.532 Why don't you introduce yourself? 00:01:58.997 --> 00:01:59.777 Lauren: Hi everybody. 00:01:59.777 --> 00:02:01.107 My name is Lauren McManamon. 00:02:01.127 --> 00:02:04.127 I am one of the senior developer advocates at ServiceNow. 00:02:04.157 --> 00:02:08.267 So alongside the likes of Chuck Tomasi, Earl Duque and Prada Bagot, 00:02:08.928 --> 00:02:10.428 Duke: Welcome to CJ and the Duke. 00:02:10.428 --> 00:02:11.628 We are so happy you're here. 00:02:12.153 --> 00:02:13.173 Lauren: I'm so happy to be here. 00:02:13.173 --> 00:02:14.943 I'm so flattered to be on your podcast. 00:02:14.943 --> 00:02:16.113 Thank you for inviting me. 00:02:16.638 --> 00:02:17.268 Duke: Oh, it's our pleasure. 00:02:17.268 --> 00:02:17.838 It's our pleasure. 00:02:18.153 --> 00:02:19.053 CJ: No, absolutely. 00:02:19.402 --> 00:02:22.582 Duke: So I guess the first question is, how did you find ServiceNow? 00:02:23.092 --> 00:02:23.212 I. 00:02:23.617 --> 00:02:27.427 Lauren: Well, I think, honestly, I think like a, like a lot of people, it was 00:02:27.427 --> 00:02:30.397 almost kind of by happenstance, you know? 00:02:30.698 --> 00:02:31.203 so. 00:02:32.033 --> 00:02:34.223 ServiceNow kind of came onto my plate in an interesting way. 00:02:34.223 --> 00:02:38.933 One of my first jobs out of college was for a major defense contractor. 00:02:38.933 --> 00:02:42.083 It was one of those, entitled like dream positions that you're 00:02:42.083 --> 00:02:43.283 just really excited to get. 00:02:43.515 --> 00:02:44.980 but it wasn't that good of a match. 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:47.130 , not only was the project kind of different from what I was 00:02:47.130 --> 00:02:49.050 anticipating, but there was some. 00:02:49.425 --> 00:02:52.245 Weird safety concerns, like in the area I was working in. 00:02:52.245 --> 00:02:53.895 It just, it just wasn't overall a good fit. 00:02:53.895 --> 00:02:56.115 So I was like desperately looking for a new job. 00:02:56.445 --> 00:02:59.355 I was, I think I'd only been the defense contractor for a couple of weeks. 00:02:59.355 --> 00:03:00.945 I was like, this is not for me. 00:03:00.945 --> 00:03:03.975 And so I was panic searching for a new job. 00:03:04.165 --> 00:03:08.660 , there was this car reinsurance company in Dallas and they were looking for 00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:10.460 just general full stack developers. 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:11.990 I got the interview. 00:03:12.037 --> 00:03:15.187 they were interviewing a couple other people and I think I talked 00:03:15.192 --> 00:03:16.947 a little bit more about, I. 00:03:16.982 --> 00:03:21.962 How comp Psci applied to the business side more than the other applicants. 00:03:21.962 --> 00:03:25.612 And so, , basically the CIO of that company was my final interview and 00:03:25.612 --> 00:03:28.822 he had said, well, we have this thing called ServiceNow and currently only 00:03:28.822 --> 00:03:32.132 one guy's working on it and he's doing a great job, but he needs, someone 00:03:32.137 --> 00:03:34.982 to bounce ideas off of someone to help him with projects and stuff. 00:03:35.552 --> 00:03:36.782 Would you be interested? 00:03:37.847 --> 00:03:41.207 And I said, to be honest, I've never heard of Service Now Day of my life, 00:03:41.207 --> 00:03:43.187 but will I get a job if I say yes? 00:03:44.897 --> 00:03:45.287 Oh. 00:03:45.617 --> 00:03:47.537 And he's like, well, you get the job either way, but that 00:03:47.537 --> 00:03:48.467 would be a great spot for you. 00:03:48.467 --> 00:03:49.217 I was like, okay, perfect. 00:03:49.217 --> 00:03:50.747 So I joined their ServiceNow team. 00:03:51.272 --> 00:03:53.342 And it was, , headed up by this awesome guy named Ben Tr. 00:03:54.032 --> 00:03:54.782 So shout up to Ben. 00:03:54.782 --> 00:03:55.532 He's awesome. 00:03:55.862 --> 00:03:59.012 And he and I kind of worked alongside each other, I think it was around 00:03:59.012 --> 00:04:01.322 six to eight months on ServiceNow. 00:04:01.352 --> 00:04:02.642 So he taught me the ropes. 00:04:02.882 --> 00:04:06.182 He was the one that kind of brought me into like knowledge and things like that. 00:04:06.272 --> 00:04:10.712 And then he actually kind of quickly left to join another company. 00:04:11.012 --> 00:04:14.102 So all of a sudden I went from this like new hire kind of right outta 00:04:14.102 --> 00:04:15.902 college to someone that was leading. 00:04:16.302 --> 00:04:20.262 A good portion of the ServiceNow trajectory at this, at this company. 00:04:20.642 --> 00:04:21.392 CJ: Wow. 00:04:22.092 --> 00:04:25.808 Lauren: Uh, which on paper was I think terrifying initially as well. 00:04:25.808 --> 00:04:29.798 Cause I was, you know, he had said such a strong precedent and he had really 00:04:29.798 --> 00:04:34.238 positively turned the trajectory of ServiceNow in his tenure at this company. 00:04:34.688 --> 00:04:38.532 And so I, there was very big shoes to fill and luckily it 00:04:38.532 --> 00:04:39.552 worked out pretty positively. 00:04:41.087 --> 00:04:42.587 CJ: Yeah, it, it sounds like it did. 00:04:42.767 --> 00:04:46.697 one thing you said during that is that you talked about, um, how, uh, com 00:04:46.697 --> 00:04:49.697 psci affects the business more than any of the other applicants, right? 00:04:49.697 --> 00:04:53.357 And that's, if anybody, anyone who's listening following along, with CJ 00:04:53.362 --> 00:04:56.297 and the Duke, everyone knows that that's kind of like my thing, right? 00:04:56.297 --> 00:04:58.727 It's, it's talking about how technology helps the business 00:04:58.732 --> 00:05:00.037 and, helps it grow, right? 00:05:00.037 --> 00:05:02.460 So the business can, realize, more value. 00:05:02.840 --> 00:05:05.750 Out of their technology investments and just more value in general. 00:05:05.990 --> 00:05:10.070 talk a little bit more about how you came to be centered along those lines. 00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:13.490 Lauren: Well, it was something that I've always kind of been keenly aware of. 00:05:13.490 --> 00:05:18.020 Cause I think in actuality I'm probably more of a business oriented person 00:05:18.020 --> 00:05:20.210 than like a tech oriented person. 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:22.940 I think it's very interesting to see how. 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:27.680 The addition of one piece of technology or, or the removal right of one piece 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:33.470 of technology can greatly transform the production and the orientation and 00:05:33.475 --> 00:05:36.950 overall even organization of a company. 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:38.930 And I've loved seeing how that has played out. 00:05:38.935 --> 00:05:42.320 I love seeing how that played out in like case studies in college. 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:44.570 That was always what really piqued my interest. 00:05:44.835 --> 00:05:49.515 And so ServiceNow, as I learned more about it, seemed to be a really 00:05:49.515 --> 00:05:51.795 interesting origin point between the two. 00:05:51.825 --> 00:05:56.235 Not only could I build, but I could build in a way that also allowed me 00:05:56.235 --> 00:06:00.105 the capacity to easily see the overall. 00:06:00.105 --> 00:06:01.755 Impact of what I was building, right? 00:06:01.755 --> 00:06:05.085 There's so many powerful like builtin analytics and reporting 00:06:05.085 --> 00:06:08.915 aspects of ServiceNow that you don't have to spend, six to eight months 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:13.115 building as well to see the overall impact of even simple applications. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.025 So that was something that really, really piqued my interest too. 00:06:16.717 --> 00:06:17.467 CJ: Oh, that's awesome. 00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:18.450 I totally agree with you, right? 00:06:18.450 --> 00:06:21.690 Like it's, the impact of the platform is one of those things that is really 00:06:21.690 --> 00:06:23.610 hard to, uh, broadcast to folks. 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:23.850 Right? 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:25.380 Until they, until they actually see it. 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:26.610 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:06:26.650 --> 00:06:26.940 Yeah. 00:06:27.412 --> 00:06:29.222 Duke: I hope that, you're allowed to talk about this. 00:06:29.222 --> 00:06:30.602 If not, we can come up with another question. 00:06:30.602 --> 00:06:34.162 But, what was one of the coolest things that you built on the customer side? 00:06:34.822 --> 00:06:39.102 Lauren: Ooh, I think probably the thing I was most proud of, and I think 00:06:39.102 --> 00:06:42.672 it's probably something I'm most proud of to this day, was there was one 00:06:42.672 --> 00:06:45.642 holiday season, so the owner of this company was very generous and he would 00:06:45.642 --> 00:06:48.912 always give every employee like a Christmas gift, which was very sweet. 00:06:49.332 --> 00:06:50.772 And one year he gave us all 50. 00:06:50.792 --> 00:06:51.002 Bit. 00:06:51.002 --> 00:06:52.862 So I was like, oh, I like, that's such a cool gift. 00:06:52.952 --> 00:06:54.842 And like we were all trying to be healthy. 00:06:54.842 --> 00:06:56.912 Like there was a bunch of like health challenges like 00:06:56.912 --> 00:06:58.262 that were being done in it. 00:06:58.842 --> 00:07:00.402 I don't remember whose idea it was. 00:07:00.402 --> 00:07:03.072 I definitely don't wanna take credit for it, but someone had suggested 00:07:03.372 --> 00:07:05.382 , a step counting a tho, right? 00:07:05.382 --> 00:07:07.332 Like, oh, who can get the most steps? 00:07:07.392 --> 00:07:10.512 And we do it to some extent for charity cuz we had been given these Fitbits, 00:07:10.662 --> 00:07:11.982 so we kind of wanted to give back. 00:07:12.102 --> 00:07:17.592 And so I, I was like, I think we could track that on ServiceNow at the time. 00:07:17.997 --> 00:07:19.077 I'm trying to remember. 00:07:19.077 --> 00:07:22.857 I don't know how many custom maps we were dipping our toe into, but it wasn't many. 00:07:22.947 --> 00:07:27.717 And so I think when we mentioned ServiceNow as a, like a governing 00:07:27.722 --> 00:07:30.357 body of this challenge, it kind of raised like a couple of eyebrows. 00:07:30.357 --> 00:07:31.137 I'm like, yeah, sure. 00:07:31.142 --> 00:07:31.467 Okay. 00:07:31.767 --> 00:07:37.132 But um, Luckily at the time, they still had that in its old version, 00:07:37.132 --> 00:07:42.022 the share website, and someone had built a semi working integration with 00:07:42.022 --> 00:07:43.552 Fitbit and I was like, oh, perfect. 00:07:43.732 --> 00:07:45.862 And so I fixed what wasn't working in that. 00:07:46.372 --> 00:07:49.432 We got everyone hooked up and so we had this big TV that 00:07:49.432 --> 00:07:52.102 would show everyone's steps. 00:07:52.362 --> 00:07:53.082 On the 00:07:53.107 --> 00:07:54.187 CJ: That's awesome. 00:07:54.282 --> 00:07:55.932 Lauren: that's what we ran the charity thing through. 00:07:56.112 --> 00:08:01.332 To be honest, I nuked our company's like productivity for the, I think it was a 00:08:01.332 --> 00:08:04.452 two week challenge cuz everyone would just go on breaks and start like walking 00:08:04.452 --> 00:08:07.632 around cause they were so competitive. 00:08:07.812 --> 00:08:09.252 Uh, but all in all, it was for charity. 00:08:09.252 --> 00:08:11.352 So I guess it was in the long run, a good thing. 00:08:12.582 --> 00:08:12.872 Duke: Nice. 00:08:13.042 --> 00:08:14.122 CJ: is, that's awesome. 00:08:15.298 --> 00:08:16.048 Lauren: It was definitely fun. 00:08:16.552 --> 00:08:19.202 CJ: So you built this Fitbit challenge, and you onboarded 00:08:19.202 --> 00:08:20.067 the rest of your, , colleagues. 00:08:20.067 --> 00:08:24.777 And so what made you decide to do it with ServiceNow, Versus anything else? 00:08:25.617 --> 00:08:28.887 Lauren: Well, I think it was ultimately the speed in which we could do things. 00:08:28.937 --> 00:08:33.137 the IT company at the customer I worked for was so amazingly 00:08:33.142 --> 00:08:37.000 productive, but they were almost kind of a victim of their own success. 00:08:37.005 --> 00:08:40.330 The backlog for what they wanted to do was so long because they were so 00:08:40.335 --> 00:08:42.370 good at, at creating stuff, right? 00:08:42.680 --> 00:08:45.080 , and so that was something that we are almost. 00:08:45.215 --> 00:08:48.815 Unshackled from like on the ServiceNow team for the things 00:08:48.815 --> 00:08:49.835 that ServiceNow could do. 00:08:49.835 --> 00:08:52.985 Obviously it can't do everything, but for the things that we could 00:08:52.985 --> 00:08:57.125 contribute to, we could do them at such a smaller timeframe just because we 00:08:57.125 --> 00:08:58.805 were developing on a platform, right? 00:08:58.805 --> 00:09:02.765 We weren't having to build things full stack from the absolute ground up. 00:09:02.815 --> 00:09:06.715 , and that helped tremendously as far as like a bargaining chip of why things 00:09:06.715 --> 00:09:07.975 should maybe go on the service now. 00:09:08.065 --> 00:09:12.175 Even it was a non-typical use case for the platform to have. 00:09:12.982 --> 00:09:15.222 CJ: Yeah, no, I totally agree with you when I'm thinking, when 00:09:15.227 --> 00:09:17.772 I have new ideas, that's totally how I think about it as well. 00:09:17.832 --> 00:09:20.982 It's like, well, ServiceNow platform has all this stuff already built into, 00:09:20.982 --> 00:09:24.252 it's got emails, it's got recording, it's got, you know, scripting platform. 00:09:24.252 --> 00:09:25.692 I already have the skillset. 00:09:25.872 --> 00:09:26.112 Right. 00:09:26.112 --> 00:09:29.022 And, and it already applies there, you know, and rest integrations are 00:09:29.022 --> 00:09:30.432 easy, the whole nine yards, right? 00:09:30.437 --> 00:09:31.152 So it's like, yeah, of course. 00:09:31.152 --> 00:09:33.642 I'm gonna look at ServiceNow first before I think about building. 00:09:33.822 --> 00:09:36.612 Something and like note js or whatever, or react or what have you. 00:09:37.032 --> 00:09:39.482 So yeah, no, that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me. 00:09:40.527 --> 00:09:45.100 Duke: So I'm kind of curious what a day in the life of, looks like at ServiceNow. 00:09:45.190 --> 00:09:46.630 do you still get to work on stuff? 00:09:46.630 --> 00:09:48.420 Do you still get to build on ServiceNow? 00:09:49.145 --> 00:09:51.575 Lauren: Well, it probably depends on the time of year. 00:09:51.575 --> 00:09:55.055 If you had asked me back in April, absolutely not cuz that's only knowledge. 00:09:56.345 --> 00:09:58.835 , but I would say that most of the time, so currently I'm on 00:09:58.835 --> 00:10:00.275 the developer advocacy team. 00:10:00.275 --> 00:10:04.500 So basically our team contributes, It's mostly content focused. 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:08.370 At the moment we're trying to expand into more like collaborative 00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:11.400 spaces and focus more on like community and things like that. 00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:15.000 But mostly we push out a lot of content, especially around the new releases. 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.000 So currently we're, we have our heads down a lot for Vancouver. 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.270 So I would say a day in the life for me is that I usually start my workday at 00:10:21.270 --> 00:10:26.130 around like, Seven 30 or eight, I catch up on correspondence that I've gotten. 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:30.000 I, I'm traditionally like very bad at getting through emails, so I try 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.320 to do it first thing in the morning. 00:10:31.590 --> 00:10:34.140 We usually have a couple of team catch up calls. 00:10:34.140 --> 00:10:37.807 I would say probably like anywhere between one to three hours worth, 00:10:37.807 --> 00:10:40.027 depending on the day of, the week per day. 00:10:40.357 --> 00:10:42.577 And then the remainder is kind of up to you. 00:10:42.637 --> 00:10:46.537 One thing I really like about this team is that you kind of run it 00:10:46.537 --> 00:10:49.897 like your own, uh, like micro. 00:10:50.592 --> 00:10:52.752 Company, I guess micro brand. 00:10:53.082 --> 00:10:55.992 for example, I really love advocating flow designer. 00:10:55.992 --> 00:11:00.402 I think it's a grossly underused for the platform that I wish everyone used. 00:11:00.612 --> 00:11:04.512 So traditionally, I spend a lot of time learning about its newest functionality, 00:11:04.722 --> 00:11:07.212 creating videos or live streams for that. 00:11:07.272 --> 00:11:11.112 Talking to the product side of the team about what I've said correctly, 00:11:11.112 --> 00:11:13.962 what I could include about future stuff, et cetera, and kind of 00:11:13.962 --> 00:11:15.972 guiding my content around that. 00:11:17.078 --> 00:11:17.498 CJ: That's, 00:11:17.653 --> 00:11:17.953 Duke: Designer. 00:11:19.543 --> 00:11:19.843 I love it. 00:11:21.153 --> 00:11:23.893 I, I, I just had that aha moment about flow Designer like, 00:11:24.032 --> 00:11:24.382 Lauren: Right. 00:11:24.667 --> 00:11:26.077 Duke: the, all the years are blending together. 00:11:26.077 --> 00:11:28.237 So I don't know if it was like two years ago, three years ago, or one year 00:11:28.237 --> 00:11:32.827 ago, but there's a certain point I'm like, I want, I really wonder if flow 00:11:32.827 --> 00:11:34.237 designer is where we need it to be. 00:11:34.242 --> 00:11:36.637 And I just like picked it up and, it was hard to figure out 00:11:36.637 --> 00:11:39.997 at first, but then after it was like hours of catching up, right? 00:11:39.997 --> 00:11:42.567 It was like four hours later and it, it's like, oh yeah. 00:11:43.102 --> 00:11:43.882 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:11:43.912 --> 00:11:47.272 And if I, gosh, I'm so tempted to spoil something cause there's 00:11:47.272 --> 00:11:51.292 something coming out in Vancouver that I, I, I really can't say it 00:11:51.292 --> 00:11:52.762 cause we, we gonna have done tech now. 00:11:52.792 --> 00:11:58.192 But I will say this as a teaser to get people on my side for flow designer. 00:11:58.402 --> 00:12:01.432 There is something that has been heavily requested for years 00:12:01.672 --> 00:12:03.232 that is included in Vancouver. 00:12:03.577 --> 00:12:05.917 And that's all I will say, but get excited for it. 00:12:06.457 --> 00:12:07.327 You've heard it here first. 00:12:07.462 --> 00:12:08.392 Duke: down my list here. 00:12:09.217 --> 00:12:09.277 Lauren: Yeah. 00:12:10.672 --> 00:12:10.882 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:10.882 --> 00:12:13.342 It's so funny you mentioned Flow Designer, your passion for it, right? 00:12:13.342 --> 00:12:16.748 Because, uh, Robert and I have a mutual client that is running 00:12:16.928 --> 00:12:20.558 ethically, their entire instance off of Flow Designer, right? 00:12:20.558 --> 00:12:21.578 Like the, yeah. 00:12:21.583 --> 00:12:25.568 They've replaced like any instance of scripting, so any business rules, , any 00:12:26.018 --> 00:12:29.288 workflow, any integrations, APIs that running through flow design, 00:12:29.288 --> 00:12:32.318 like every single thing that. 00:12:33.233 --> 00:12:36.593 Duke: it shocked me how effectively it could replace business 00:12:36.593 --> 00:12:38.033 rules and scheduled jobs. 00:12:38.063 --> 00:12:38.603 You know what I mean? 00:12:38.608 --> 00:12:41.608 Just, it's not just, , it's not just a replacement for legacy workflow. 00:12:41.608 --> 00:12:43.048 It's a replacement for so many other things. 00:12:43.258 --> 00:12:45.868 I do have a daydream though, and if you could just kind of like maybe, 00:12:46.168 --> 00:12:48.988 you know, if you ever see the product managers just maybe whisper it 00:12:49.048 --> 00:12:49.588 Lauren: sure. 00:12:49.588 --> 00:12:50.398 Yeah. 00:12:50.425 --> 00:12:54.325 Duke: now I know UI actions can basically use code to run flow, but not super 00:12:54.325 --> 00:12:57.955 clear and easy, but it would be really cool if there's one flow trigger 00:12:57.960 --> 00:12:59.935 action that was like a UI action has. 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:02.170 Lauren: Ah, okay. 00:13:02.170 --> 00:13:03.850 I'll, I'll pass it along for sure. 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:06.340 That's, Hey, that's part of my job too, that that's what I like 00:13:06.340 --> 00:13:09.610 about this position is that we work closely with the product team too. 00:13:09.610 --> 00:13:10.780 So I will pass that along. 00:13:10.870 --> 00:13:12.640 Duke: Or even like, script actions 00:13:12.950 --> 00:13:13.240 Lauren: Yeah. 00:13:13.380 --> 00:13:13.601 Oh yeah. 00:13:13.660 --> 00:13:14.290 Duke: looks for an event. 00:13:14.295 --> 00:13:15.760 It's like a business rule based off an event. 00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:18.490 Like I was, why don't they do that in flow Designer? 00:13:19.900 --> 00:13:22.030 Lauren: You're just making me wanna spoil stuff, but I can't, I can't. 00:13:22.030 --> 00:13:23.050 I'll get in so much trouble. 00:13:24.070 --> 00:13:24.910 Duke: I guess you could though. 00:13:24.910 --> 00:13:27.340 Could you just do like a record create and this event table 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:28.240 or something like that, and. 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:30.040 I guess you could do it that way. 00:13:30.820 --> 00:13:31.720 Lauren: I understand what you're saying though. 00:13:31.725 --> 00:13:32.620 You, you want it built. 00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:35.800 There should be like I understand what you're saying though, like 00:13:35.800 --> 00:13:39.370 it'd be nice cuz it's such a UI focused environment, right? 00:13:39.370 --> 00:13:40.870 If that was somehow more embedded into the ui. 00:13:41.020 --> 00:13:41.740 Absolutely. 00:13:41.900 --> 00:13:42.190 Duke: Yeah. 00:13:42.685 --> 00:13:43.255 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:43.255 --> 00:13:46.315 And especially , with the move towards, , kind of low-code, no-code, right? 00:13:46.315 --> 00:13:48.415 Like allowing folks to say, okay, click this button and 00:13:48.415 --> 00:13:49.735 then execute this thing, right? 00:13:49.735 --> 00:13:50.905 And you just pick it from a list. 00:13:51.115 --> 00:13:53.635 Like, I think that would really help a lot of folks out, right? 00:13:53.640 --> 00:13:54.925 Like, you know, yeah. 00:13:55.225 --> 00:13:56.995 Us old, old school folks, right? 00:13:56.995 --> 00:13:59.425 Like, we're always like, no, I just wanna write code. 00:14:00.985 --> 00:14:03.258 Duke: that's, I mean, that's why I love about it too, is I have 00:14:03.258 --> 00:14:05.688 a lot of like developer friends, . And they're just like, why? 00:14:05.748 --> 00:14:06.108 Why? 00:14:06.108 --> 00:14:07.698 Like I can just code it faster. 00:14:07.818 --> 00:14:08.298 Yes. 00:14:08.303 --> 00:14:11.088 But you can't give it to somebody who can't code after, 00:14:11.418 --> 00:14:12.168 Lauren: Oh, absolutely. 00:14:12.168 --> 00:14:12.468 That's, 00:14:12.558 --> 00:14:15.288 Duke: this flow designer to like almost anybody. 00:14:15.318 --> 00:14:15.648 Right? 00:14:15.648 --> 00:14:16.548 Almost anybody. 00:14:16.548 --> 00:14:17.988 And they'll be able to cobble it together. 00:14:18.242 --> 00:14:21.122 Lauren: That'll always be my biggest selling point when I hear, cuz I used 00:14:21.122 --> 00:14:23.582 to hear that argument, especially when I was on sales all the time. 00:14:23.582 --> 00:14:26.552 We can't use flow designer because I can code faster. 00:14:26.822 --> 00:14:30.182 And I said yes, but if you print out your code, could your boss understand it? 00:14:30.182 --> 00:14:34.112 Or your boss's boss understand it And nine times that tan, the answer was maybe no. 00:14:34.292 --> 00:14:37.502 But if you print out a flow designer, it verbatim tells you what it's doing 00:14:37.502 --> 00:14:39.572 and you barely have to label anything. 00:14:39.662 --> 00:14:42.392 So it's a nice, it's a nice selling point. 00:14:42.722 --> 00:14:44.892 Duke: And there literally is a competition in time there. 00:14:44.892 --> 00:14:45.162 Right? 00:14:45.162 --> 00:14:45.462 Because you. 00:14:45.507 --> 00:14:45.987 Lauren: Mm. 00:14:46.372 --> 00:14:49.595 Duke: When I say I can code things faster, that means there's a monetary 00:14:49.595 --> 00:14:51.185 price to the time I'm saving. 00:14:51.545 --> 00:14:55.175 But what people don't forget and we know that they forget, sorry, what 00:14:55.180 --> 00:14:58.205 people do forget and we know they forget it because ain't nobody out there 00:14:58.205 --> 00:15:01.385 doing documentation at scale is, is 00:15:01.520 --> 00:15:02.840 Lauren: What whatcha saying? 00:15:03.110 --> 00:15:07.250 You saying developers don't, don't annotate and don't document. 00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:08.420 No, never. 00:15:08.420 --> 00:15:08.450 I. 00:15:08.495 --> 00:15:10.775 Duke: uh, and I don't put that on the feet of developers either. 00:15:10.775 --> 00:15:13.115 I put it on the feet of the entire deployment team. 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:17.000 From the most junior ba all the way up to the engagement manager. 00:15:17.150 --> 00:15:18.230 It's all their fault. 00:15:18.680 --> 00:15:23.133 Um, but, but there's a speed to inheritance. 00:15:24.123 --> 00:15:26.493 Not just a speed to deploy, but a speed to inheritance. 00:15:26.498 --> 00:15:29.793 So x amount of times during a product's life, the people who 00:15:29.798 --> 00:15:32.013 are in charge of it will change. 00:15:32.133 --> 00:15:34.383 And how long is it gonna take them to get it? 00:15:35.223 --> 00:15:35.583 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:15:35.883 --> 00:15:37.503 Duke: And can I just go on a little tiny rant? 00:15:37.503 --> 00:15:38.283 A little tiny one. 00:15:38.658 --> 00:15:39.318 Lauren: It's your show. 00:15:39.318 --> 00:15:40.558 Go for all thes you'd like. 00:15:42.948 --> 00:15:47.538 Duke: It's just ju if we just imagine if these things are placed in the 00:15:47.538 --> 00:15:52.518 types of workflow that everybody dreams, it could be life sciences, 00:15:52.818 --> 00:15:57.528 pharmaceutical, manufacturing, manufacturing it, all right, like that. 00:15:57.528 --> 00:16:00.498 Time to inheritance is gonna matter because when the things fail, the 00:16:00.498 --> 00:16:02.178 failure is gonna be measured in lives. 00:16:02.178 --> 00:16:05.328 Lost, not time wasted, money wasted. 00:16:05.793 --> 00:16:06.573 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:16:07.448 --> 00:16:10.088 CJ: Yeah, I think it matters, right, in those situations because it's a lot 00:16:10.088 --> 00:16:15.298 easier to quantify, the lost value of that inheritance that you were mentioning. 00:16:15.298 --> 00:16:18.598 So yeah, like those situations I think are really, really, really, really cool. 00:16:19.075 --> 00:16:21.835 Lauren, you've mentioned, right, like your previous sales background, I 00:16:21.835 --> 00:16:23.485 wanted to touch on that a little bit. 00:16:23.485 --> 00:16:27.025 So tell me what it's like a day in the life, of being 00:16:27.025 --> 00:16:28.525 on the sales side of things. 00:16:28.525 --> 00:16:28.675 Right? 00:16:28.675 --> 00:16:32.275 Cause you know, a lot of our listeners are mostly on the dev side of things, right? 00:16:32.275 --> 00:16:34.075 The implementation execution, right? 00:16:34.075 --> 00:16:36.805 How does all of this look through a sales lens? 00:16:37.165 --> 00:16:38.535 Lauren: It was really, really fun. 00:16:38.535 --> 00:16:39.765 I think I worked that job. 00:16:39.765 --> 00:16:43.188 I think if it wasn't five years, it was very nearly five years. 00:16:43.488 --> 00:16:47.268 So after I joined, so I, I worked with the customer and then I was hired 00:16:47.273 --> 00:16:49.278 onto what was called demo center. 00:16:49.308 --> 00:16:52.718 Cause I didn't have any sales experience, but I had lots of, ServiceNow experience. 00:16:52.718 --> 00:16:56.138 So demo center was like a junior sales role essentially 00:16:56.138 --> 00:16:57.818 to learn the appropriate skills. 00:16:57.818 --> 00:17:01.268 So I did that for a year and then immediately joined our creator 00:17:01.268 --> 00:17:03.878 workflows specialist team as an sc. 00:17:03.878 --> 00:17:06.638 So I'm, I was the technical salesperson. 00:17:06.908 --> 00:17:09.578 So on the sales side, at least at ServiceNow, right, they'll take a 00:17:09.578 --> 00:17:13.928 technical salesperson and pair them with a traditional account executive 00:17:14.168 --> 00:17:18.915 or or regular salesperson that person will control all of the aspects of 00:17:18.945 --> 00:17:23.595 like the contracts, the monetary aspects, the relationship management. 00:17:23.805 --> 00:17:28.915 They'll more so own the account, , which I really liked because I. 00:17:29.115 --> 00:17:32.445 Never would have to deal with contract negotiations or any 00:17:32.445 --> 00:17:33.315 of like the money things. 00:17:33.315 --> 00:17:35.325 I could just focus on the value of the product. 00:17:35.635 --> 00:17:39.925 , so I essentially acted as the ambassador to the customer, to my salesperson. 00:17:40.105 --> 00:17:44.185 I would translate the needs of that customer to the products that would 00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:48.205 best fit them to solve their business problems or challenges or goals. 00:17:48.445 --> 00:17:50.805 And then align that , with my team for what that would 00:17:50.805 --> 00:17:53.805 potentially cost or what they would potentially need to buy or not buy. 00:17:53.865 --> 00:17:55.455 You know, like, Hey, you already have this. 00:17:55.455 --> 00:17:56.085 Did you even know? 00:17:56.085 --> 00:17:58.180 And sometimes the answer would be like, We already bought that. 00:17:58.390 --> 00:18:00.010 You're like, yeah, like here's how you use it, it's great. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.400 So, , that was more so my position, but it was only about creator workflow. 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:09.350 So it was only about app engine and building apps, which is very different 00:18:09.350 --> 00:18:11.600 than every other sales team at ServiceNow. 00:18:11.605 --> 00:18:14.390 Cuz we have all these great products that are sold as like 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:19.490 those suites, so like tsm, csm and, and uh, HR and all those things. 00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:24.260 But those are essentially done applications or application suites. 00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:28.460 It's like the difference between selling homes and, and selling land, right? 00:18:28.830 --> 00:18:29.180 CJ: Right, 00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:30.590 Lauren: you can build whatever you want. 00:18:30.590 --> 00:18:31.550 And they go, what can we build? 00:18:31.550 --> 00:18:33.020 I'm like, what do you wanna build? 00:18:33.020 --> 00:18:34.310 And they go, I don't know what we wanna build. 00:18:34.310 --> 00:18:39.121 So learning how to handle those conversations, , was very, at, 00:18:39.540 --> 00:18:42.930 at least initially very difficult because I joined the creator 00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:44.370 workflows team when it started. 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:50.080 So there was no precedent, , of how to handle those types of, of challenges. 00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:53.610 CJ: the question that naturally pops in my head after, hearing a lot of that, 00:18:53.610 --> 00:18:56.510 and especially, you know, your initial answers, , earlier in the podcast, 00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.720 did you choose to like to land here? 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:04.340 Was this like intentional from you to land because it feels like a really good fit. 00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:07.390 For your skillset best based on how you, , described it 00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:08.680 earlier in the podcast, right? 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.130 In terms of like articulating business value and aligning it with it, right? 00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:17.050 Like this seems exactly that, except at at scale for ServiceNow 00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:18.820 to a number of customers. 00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:20.930 Lauren: Yeah, I, I really just lucked out. 00:19:20.935 --> 00:19:23.930 I was, because when I joined ServiceNow, there wasn't a 00:19:23.930 --> 00:19:25.670 creator workflow sales team. 00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:29.480 And I, I remember thinking like, that's a shame cause we've 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.970 built so many custom apps and. 00:19:32.385 --> 00:19:35.355 When I went as a customer, when I went to Knowledge, I thought, oh my 00:19:35.355 --> 00:19:39.292 gosh, I'm gonna learn from all these companies that have, that are, 10 00:19:39.382 --> 00:19:41.572 times, a hundred times bigger than us. 00:19:41.782 --> 00:19:44.662 They'll of course be building crazy custom apps. 00:19:45.112 --> 00:19:49.582 And at the time, that was about 2016, it was kind of a. 00:19:50.082 --> 00:19:53.352 Shattering moment to realize that we were almost ahead of the curve. 00:19:53.352 --> 00:19:55.122 And I was like, how is that possible? 00:19:55.522 --> 00:19:58.852 , and so when I joined ServiceNow in 2017, I was like, oh, I really 00:19:58.852 --> 00:20:01.852 wish there was a sales team that focused just on that aspect. 00:20:01.942 --> 00:20:04.342 And then I just lucked out cause it was created the year I kind 00:20:04.342 --> 00:20:05.422 of finished up on MO Center. 00:20:07.247 --> 00:20:07.537 CJ: Nice. 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:12.420 Tell us about the transition then from sales side, then to developer advocate. 00:20:12.470 --> 00:20:15.125 . And, having worked with you , on that side of the house, right? 00:20:15.125 --> 00:20:18.210 Like, you bring , this energy to it that I, that I absolutely love. 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:21.140 So tell us how you move from sales to, to over there. 00:20:21.665 --> 00:20:24.635 Lauren: Well, I think it was more so learning what I liked about sales. 00:20:24.635 --> 00:20:30.635 So, , as an sc my job mostly was doing demos for individual customers, right? 00:20:30.635 --> 00:20:32.945 Someone would come in with a goal or a problem. 00:20:33.235 --> 00:20:37.075 , I would translate that into some sort of demo, and then they would. 00:20:37.990 --> 00:20:38.830 Buy or not buy. 00:20:38.830 --> 00:20:39.280 Right. 00:20:39.700 --> 00:20:43.540 And I didn't really understand at the time, but a lot of the things that 00:20:43.540 --> 00:20:47.690 I was doing as like pet projects, , like for example, I was trying 00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:49.010 to get better at public speaking. 00:20:49.010 --> 00:20:51.980 So I was speaking at any snug that would pop up. 00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:53.330 I was like, I gotta get better at this. 00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:56.480 And so I was speaking at Snugs, not traditionally at sc. 00:20:56.765 --> 00:20:58.925 Responsibility, but it was something I liked doing. 00:20:59.305 --> 00:21:02.215 , as we participated in conferences, sometimes we would get 00:21:02.215 --> 00:21:03.565 subbed in to help with them. 00:21:03.805 --> 00:21:07.195 Again, not traditionally an SC job, but I realized how much I 00:21:07.195 --> 00:21:12.805 liked them, and I think the more time I spent with customers, , And 00:21:12.805 --> 00:21:15.715 that, I mean developers, right? 00:21:16.255 --> 00:21:18.595 The more I liked that audience. 00:21:18.595 --> 00:21:23.245 I think in sales you're oftentimes speaking with leadership and 00:21:23.245 --> 00:21:28.920 it's extremely hyper competitive and , I think that I was fatiguing 00:21:28.925 --> 00:21:30.840 a bit of the pace of that. 00:21:31.530 --> 00:21:35.730 And also , I didn't really feel like I had a lot of control over my, 00:21:35.760 --> 00:21:37.650 what was quote unquote, my success. 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:38.010 Right? 00:21:38.310 --> 00:21:41.670 That, and that is something that is a, a homogenous problem with being 00:21:41.675 --> 00:21:43.290 a solution consultant in general. 00:21:43.710 --> 00:21:46.800 You as a solution consultant, your value comes from your ability 00:21:46.805 --> 00:21:51.170 to interpret the needs of the customer into , the software, right? 00:21:51.860 --> 00:21:58.120 But, But overall, you're still always graded on the sales number, 00:21:58.150 --> 00:22:00.700 which traditionally you don't even have that much control over. 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.790 Pretty much you prevent the sale from failing, right? 00:22:03.790 --> 00:22:06.880 , oh, I prove that this thing is valid for the customer, but I was 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.180 never part of like the contract negotiation or the money, right? 00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:12.370 But that was predominantly how you're kind of graded. 00:22:13.060 --> 00:22:17.337 So I was always feeling like I never had as much control over my quote unquote su 00:22:17.547 --> 00:22:20.127 success or fate as I would've liked to. 00:22:20.727 --> 00:22:24.297 And so when this job opened up, I was like, oh my gosh. 00:22:24.297 --> 00:22:28.017 Not only does it have more focus with the audience that I really 00:22:28.017 --> 00:22:32.222 enjoy, but I do have more control to live or die by my own sword. 00:22:32.552 --> 00:22:34.922 And it was just a, a really, a perfect fit. 00:22:35.687 --> 00:22:36.107 CJ: Oh my God. 00:22:36.107 --> 00:22:36.827 I love that. 00:22:36.827 --> 00:22:39.797 There's a couple things in there that you said that really resonate with me, right? 00:22:39.797 --> 00:22:44.137 Like one of those is how you said yes to taking , some of these responsibilities 00:22:44.137 --> 00:22:48.997 that weren't typically in your, sphere of, expertise or responsibility, right? 00:22:48.997 --> 00:22:52.227 And speaking , as snus to better your public speaking skillset, right? 00:22:52.227 --> 00:22:55.377 Like one of the reasons that I do the podcast , was to better 00:22:55.377 --> 00:22:58.547 my public speaking, , and so I totally resonate with that. 00:22:58.547 --> 00:23:00.142 And then, at Knowledge, right. 00:23:00.142 --> 00:23:02.932 A lot of what I was saying, and this completely, I wasn't, I should have 00:23:02.932 --> 00:23:04.252 gotten a check from this, from ServiceNow. 00:23:04.742 --> 00:23:06.572 , but I, I, I completely didn't. 00:23:06.572 --> 00:23:06.782 Right. 00:23:06.782 --> 00:23:08.672 I was telling everyone, , say yes to everything. 00:23:08.830 --> 00:23:12.065 and it sounds you said yes to a lot of things and that led you from a 00:23:12.065 --> 00:23:13.895 place where you were doing well, right? 00:23:13.895 --> 00:23:17.645 And that you enjoy to being able to find what you would enjoy more 00:23:17.765 --> 00:23:21.035 and give you more control over your career, and being able to jump there. 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:23.795 Lauren: Yeah, , and I think a lot of people thought it was because I kind 00:23:23.795 --> 00:23:28.459 of, I Seinfeld it a bit, , because I, I think it was either my last year as 00:23:28.459 --> 00:23:33.619 an SC or my penultimate year as an SC that I was the number one SE for the 00:23:33.619 --> 00:23:35.809 world as far as overall like attainment. 00:23:36.124 --> 00:23:37.244 CJ: Oh, mic drop. 00:23:37.654 --> 00:23:41.794 Lauren: And that's the way to end it, right? 00:23:42.564 --> 00:23:43.004 CJ: Absolutely, 00:23:43.489 --> 00:23:44.809 Duke: Use Seinfeld as a verb. 00:23:45.244 --> 00:23:45.844 Lauren: Yeah. 00:23:47.569 --> 00:23:47.839 Duke: Okay. 00:23:47.844 --> 00:23:49.909 For the under, for the under 40 crowd. 00:23:49.914 --> 00:23:51.949 Can you, could you explain what that means? 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:55.729 Lauren: Oh, to end it, like your peak ver versus end when you've trailed off. 00:23:55.729 --> 00:23:57.289 I think that's a really important thing, right? 00:23:57.289 --> 00:24:02.094 Is to not let things spiral into a place where they're no longer positive, right? 00:24:02.394 --> 00:24:06.234 Um, so I, I was like, I still feel like I'm doing well, but it's maybe not the 00:24:06.234 --> 00:24:10.194 best matchup anymore, so I should at least keep my eyes, o eyes and ears open. 00:24:10.854 --> 00:24:11.694 CJ: This is so funny. 00:24:11.694 --> 00:24:14.814 Like you, you're telling us right now that you've left us the number one SC 00:24:14.814 --> 00:24:17.454 in the world, and you're like, I'm still like, I still feel like I'm doing well. 00:24:17.574 --> 00:24:17.784 No. 00:24:20.469 --> 00:24:23.469 Lauren: It really ha So there were, there were two deals in particular 00:24:23.529 --> 00:24:25.869 it must have been 2020, not 2021. 00:24:25.874 --> 00:24:26.889 So it must have been 2020. 00:24:27.159 --> 00:24:29.799 And there were two deals that I had been working on for like years, 00:24:30.159 --> 00:24:32.379 and my territory was changing. 00:24:32.439 --> 00:24:35.619 And so I asked my boss, I was like, well, if my territory changes and 00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:37.479 those deals close in like January. 00:24:37.794 --> 00:24:38.664 Do I get credit for them? 00:24:38.664 --> 00:24:39.294 He's like, no. 00:24:40.054 --> 00:24:40.344 CJ: What. 00:24:40.554 --> 00:24:45.474 Lauren: and so I, I, my poor sales guy, I was like, you have to sell these deals. 00:24:46.224 --> 00:24:47.334 I was like, you have to. 00:24:47.424 --> 00:24:49.404 I've been slamming away for them for three years. 00:24:49.464 --> 00:24:51.594 Just one of them, just one of them has to close. 00:24:51.714 --> 00:24:53.094 I don't care if it's both just one. 00:24:53.154 --> 00:24:54.114 And then both did. 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.904 So it was, it was kind of like a mini miracle that that happened. 00:24:57.064 --> 00:24:58.384 and then our territory switched. 00:24:58.384 --> 00:24:59.194 I was like, oh, whew. 00:24:59.614 --> 00:25:00.124 Thank goodness. 00:25:01.572 --> 00:25:02.562 CJ: that is, that is awesome. 00:25:03.312 --> 00:25:06.042 Duke: Did you have any like skills that you learned in the, SE side 00:25:06.042 --> 00:25:10.692 of things that have served you well on the developer advocacy side? 00:25:10.692 --> 00:25:10.752 Um, 00:25:10.932 --> 00:25:14.442 Lauren: I still remember my interview for the, for ServiceNow 00:25:14.442 --> 00:25:18.857 very vividly because part of it was a demo, ? And so my, the hiring 00:25:18.857 --> 00:25:22.367 manager had asked me, demo something that you've built on the platform. 00:25:22.787 --> 00:25:27.287 And so I demoed it as a developer, ? This does this and this does that. 00:25:27.292 --> 00:25:28.097 And this is cool. 00:25:28.097 --> 00:25:29.657 And I think it's cool cause I built it. 00:25:30.317 --> 00:25:34.174 And so I could tell he understood that I knew the platform very well, 00:25:34.174 --> 00:25:35.734 but overall the demo was pretty poor. 00:25:35.734 --> 00:25:37.084 And so he gave me some notes. 00:25:37.084 --> 00:25:40.744 He said, Hey, how about you orient your demo more like a story 00:25:40.744 --> 00:25:42.124 from the person that's using it. 00:25:42.844 --> 00:25:45.484 And he's like, I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna come back in 10 minutes and 00:25:45.484 --> 00:25:47.044 you're gonna do this interview again. 00:25:47.049 --> 00:25:48.034 And I was like, okay. 00:25:48.244 --> 00:25:48.934 Oh my God. 00:25:49.054 --> 00:25:49.984 So I start, I start 00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:50.479 Duke: pressure. 00:25:51.244 --> 00:25:54.034 Lauren: but he was kind enough to gimme the opportunity to try again. 00:25:54.064 --> 00:25:54.484 Right. 00:25:54.484 --> 00:25:59.487 And so, That was the first time I'd ever really thought about a story oriented 00:25:59.487 --> 00:26:02.487 presentation versus I think this is cool. 00:26:02.487 --> 00:26:04.797 So you think you should think this is cool, right? 00:26:05.697 --> 00:26:09.987 And I think that as an sc honing that skill is one of the best 00:26:09.987 --> 00:26:11.577 things you can take away from it. 00:26:11.847 --> 00:26:15.417 And it's something that I still use to this day of the narrative of the demo 00:26:15.417 --> 00:26:17.367 or the narrative of the presentation. 00:26:17.647 --> 00:26:20.047 , cuz we're really story oriented organisms. 00:26:20.097 --> 00:26:24.742 It's why books and TV and podcasts are like also consumables because 00:26:24.742 --> 00:26:28.282 usually they're oriented around storytelling and technology 00:26:28.312 --> 00:26:29.692 presentations should be no different. 00:26:29.692 --> 00:26:31.432 And I think learning that was most important. 00:26:31.842 --> 00:26:34.902 Duke: I think it's a skill that everybody should learn at a certain 00:26:34.902 --> 00:26:36.402 point in their ServiceNow career. 00:26:36.492 --> 00:26:39.702 Like there's a threshold of attainment if you don't learn to 00:26:39.702 --> 00:26:41.622 tell that story , like an SE does. 00:26:42.177 --> 00:26:42.467 Lauren: yeah. 00:26:42.830 --> 00:26:45.460 Duke: because , it is just convincing people of larger scale ideas, right? 00:26:45.460 --> 00:26:48.070 Getting them to agree to the same worldview as you do. 00:26:48.347 --> 00:26:53.807 And it takes understanding their pain and it takes showcasing how their pain 00:26:53.812 --> 00:26:56.087 gets solved and in what degree, right? 00:26:56.717 --> 00:26:59.357 And getting them to, like, getting it to say a back to you. 00:26:59.357 --> 00:27:02.087 So they're like really selling to themselves if you're careful enough 00:27:02.087 --> 00:27:04.037 versus, you know what I mean? 00:27:04.037 --> 00:27:07.037 Get them to sell it to themselves versus you do feature functions 00:27:07.307 --> 00:27:10.600 and it's like The peril of feature functions is they can disagree with you. 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:12.880 You're like, I think this is cool, and like, I don't care. 00:27:13.450 --> 00:27:13.690 Lauren: Yeah. 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:14.470 Right. 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.630 And that's what my, that's what the hiring manager was getting at. 00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:19.810 Like, I understand you think this is cool, but why should I think this is cool? 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:21.970 CJ: Absolutely. 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:24.010 It's funny, , so I, do therapy, right? 00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:26.290 Like I get therapy, uh, with my guy once, once a week. 00:27:26.295 --> 00:27:29.770 And I like to bring that into the podcast sometimes just to normalize it, right? 00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:32.830 So folks know that it's not something that you should shy away from. 00:27:32.835 --> 00:27:35.350 It's real kind of, you know, something I feel, I feel like everyone should 00:27:35.350 --> 00:27:38.740 do it cuz it helped me immensely, especially when I lost my mom. 00:27:38.860 --> 00:27:43.120 But what I was talking about with my therapist, just this past week was, 00:27:43.159 --> 00:27:46.839 This entire thing, this narrative of storytelling and how it both, impacts, 00:27:46.899 --> 00:27:50.049 you know, ServiceNow, my professional career, but also my, my political career, 00:27:50.099 --> 00:27:52.739 ? And it's two things , that I just took away from that conversation, right? 00:27:52.744 --> 00:27:55.259 Is one empathy, being empathetic. 00:27:55.389 --> 00:27:58.989 With your customer and understanding like how they perceive the world and 00:27:58.989 --> 00:28:02.669 what their problem is, ? And so that you can , help solve it better, right? 00:28:02.669 --> 00:28:04.659 Because , you can't solve problems that you don't understand. 00:28:04.659 --> 00:28:06.339 Now, you don't have to agree with the problem, right? 00:28:06.699 --> 00:28:08.789 But you have to understand it in order to help solve it. 00:28:08.794 --> 00:28:11.399 And then the second thing is, a lot of people say, I can't do sales. 00:28:11.399 --> 00:28:12.089 I can't do sales. 00:28:12.094 --> 00:28:13.619 Well, sales is really, I'll just make you think. 00:28:13.619 --> 00:28:14.339 It's their idea. 00:28:14.489 --> 00:28:17.219 Once you understand the problem, once you know the solution, then you just 00:28:17.219 --> 00:28:20.759 gotta make them think it's their solution and then the problem solved, right? 00:28:20.764 --> 00:28:24.514 So, So I just love all of that and I just wanted to kind of bring all of 00:28:24.514 --> 00:28:27.284 that together, for folks listening, because I know a lot of people 00:28:27.404 --> 00:28:31.334 are so, intimidated by sales, but really you learn to tell the story. 00:28:31.544 --> 00:28:33.224 You have empathy for your customer, right? 00:28:33.224 --> 00:28:36.404 And then you convince them that they're just doing what they wanna do anyway. 00:28:36.464 --> 00:28:37.919 , and , that's a good start. 00:28:38.554 --> 00:28:39.214 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:28:39.214 --> 00:28:42.784 And it's so funny that the word sales has such a bad stigma, right? 00:28:42.784 --> 00:28:44.224 Like, I understand where it comes from. 00:28:44.224 --> 00:28:46.294 It comes from like, oh, like the car sales. 00:28:46.294 --> 00:28:48.274 Like, no, no shame of car sales. 00:28:48.724 --> 00:28:50.164 But, but you know what I mean, right? 00:28:50.164 --> 00:28:50.894 Of like, oh, they're just. 00:28:51.179 --> 00:28:52.559 They're just trying to nickel and dime me. 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.969 However, the art of selling isn't just necessary in a business sense, 00:28:56.969 --> 00:29:01.139 but it's also necessary from a career perspective of being able 00:29:01.139 --> 00:29:05.129 to advocate for your own skills and advocate for your own talents as well. 00:29:05.129 --> 00:29:06.729 Like it's, that's just selling too, you know? 00:29:07.104 --> 00:29:13.074 Duke: And to some extent, I feel like selling is fundamental to life the better. 00:29:13.100 --> 00:29:13.850 you can get better. 00:29:13.850 --> 00:29:15.260 So many different things in life. 00:29:15.377 --> 00:29:16.427 By learning how to sell. 00:29:17.022 --> 00:29:17.532 Lauren: Yeah. 00:29:17.537 --> 00:29:17.897 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:17.927 --> 00:29:22.187 Duke: It's just a way of getting people to agree on a shared vision of the world, 00:29:22.697 --> 00:29:22.917 CJ: Yes. 00:29:23.117 --> 00:29:23.417 Duke: them to 00:29:23.492 --> 00:29:24.362 Lauren: a better way of put it. 00:29:24.362 --> 00:29:26.062 Yeah, we're, where's Ana's shared 00:29:26.327 --> 00:29:26.927 Duke: Yeah. 00:29:26.927 --> 00:29:30.377 And, and for, and for them to take action on it, right? 00:29:30.377 --> 00:29:33.287 It's not just, it's not just that we agree, but you are also 00:29:33.287 --> 00:29:34.577 gonna agree to do this thing. 00:29:34.577 --> 00:29:37.897 And , there's so many skills and disciplines in life that are like this. 00:29:37.897 --> 00:29:42.307 And if you say I'm bad at sales, it's like, okay, what 00:29:42.307 --> 00:29:43.327 are you gonna do about it? 00:29:43.327 --> 00:29:45.757 Cause if you tell me you're bad at sales and you're not interested in sales, 00:29:45.877 --> 00:29:49.657 that means you're not interested in any other way you can better yourself. 00:29:49.657 --> 00:29:50.947 That requires other people. 00:29:54.527 --> 00:29:57.197 CJ: like these nuggets I feel like are so incredibly useful 00:29:57.197 --> 00:29:58.007 for our knowledge, right? 00:29:58.157 --> 00:30:01.367 For our audience because there are so many in our audience who are either just 00:30:01.367 --> 00:30:05.477 starting out or they're developers, who have never really had to sell themselves, 00:30:05.482 --> 00:30:07.732 . Or, or feel uncomfortable doing so. 00:30:07.737 --> 00:30:10.017 . And I think just talking about it in this way, kinda unpacking 00:30:10.017 --> 00:30:13.197 it and de-stigmatizing it, , can be really helpful for folks. 00:30:13.502 --> 00:30:16.642 Duke: and there was a time when , okay, like I'm somewhere in the 00:30:16.642 --> 00:30:20.249 point of my ServiceNow career and oh, I don't know how to do sales. 00:30:20.309 --> 00:30:22.229 Well, there was a point you didn't know how to do ServiceNow either. 00:30:22.739 --> 00:30:24.839 Lauren: It's true just a skill. 00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:27.050 Duke: you gotta do the hard thing sometimes, right? 00:30:27.070 --> 00:30:30.915 when I found out I had diabetes, like how hard is it to go from sch 00:30:30.915 --> 00:30:33.525 flubbing around in life to doing workouts three times a week? 00:30:33.645 --> 00:30:36.859 How hard is it to, completely change a diet that you've been 00:30:36.859 --> 00:30:38.649 strapped to , for the last 30 years? 00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:41.079 All that stuff is super difficult, but so what? 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:41.799 You gotta do it. 00:30:42.094 --> 00:30:42.974 Lauren: Amen to that. 00:30:43.209 --> 00:30:44.429 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:30:44.820 --> 00:30:46.260 Duke: Okay, let's lighten it up a bit. 00:30:46.350 --> 00:30:51.034 Um, gosh, man, we had a lot of dark stuff in there. 00:30:51.034 --> 00:30:53.164 We had like mom's dying and diabetes and 00:30:53.524 --> 00:30:54.604 Lauren: But it's real stuff. 00:30:54.604 --> 00:30:54.844 Yeah. 00:30:54.844 --> 00:30:55.474 It's not dark. 00:30:55.564 --> 00:30:55.714 Is 00:30:55.849 --> 00:30:56.689 CJ: It's Right. 00:30:56.689 --> 00:30:57.799 That's life, right? 00:30:58.084 --> 00:30:58.264 Duke: Yeah. 00:30:58.264 --> 00:30:59.667 I'm just not to cry. 00:31:01.887 --> 00:31:05.187 , maybe with the last bit of the show is like the Lauren that nobody else knows. 00:31:05.957 --> 00:31:06.177 Lauren: Ooh. 00:31:06.327 --> 00:31:06.617 Okay. 00:31:07.192 --> 00:31:07.482 CJ: Yeah. 00:31:07.487 --> 00:31:07.542 Yeah. 00:31:08.132 --> 00:31:10.652 Duke: so I heard something about anime, like a you're an anime 00:31:10.652 --> 00:31:14.192 person or is it more of a, or a Japan culture thing in general. 00:31:14.597 --> 00:31:15.437 Lauren: I love anime. 00:31:15.437 --> 00:31:16.997 I think it's a Japan culture thing. 00:31:16.997 --> 00:31:18.287 More in general though. 00:31:18.287 --> 00:31:24.587 So originally I, minored in Mandarin Chinese in college and I took it 00:31:24.587 --> 00:31:26.027 in middle school and high school. 00:31:26.027 --> 00:31:32.527 So, But the opportunities to use Mandarin, unless you are in China, are not that 00:31:32.527 --> 00:31:33.907 high, at least the United States. 00:31:33.907 --> 00:31:34.147 Right? 00:31:34.207 --> 00:31:36.367 If you live, actually, if you live in Australia, there's like tons, 00:31:36.367 --> 00:31:39.607 cuz it's, there's tons of Mandarin speakers in other places, but not 00:31:39.607 --> 00:31:40.867 necessarily in the United States. 00:31:40.957 --> 00:31:46.912 And so, With not as many options to travel to China as I would've liked. 00:31:47.362 --> 00:31:49.252 I was wanting to pivot that, right? 00:31:49.252 --> 00:31:50.992 I'm like, I don't want all this to go to waste. 00:31:51.322 --> 00:31:53.302 , and Japanese is close, right? 00:31:53.332 --> 00:31:58.252 , so they use a type of character system that a lot of the traditional characters 00:31:58.257 --> 00:32:00.202 are derived from Chinese characters. 00:32:00.202 --> 00:32:01.432 So the grammar is different. 00:32:01.612 --> 00:32:03.142 The structure of the language is different. 00:32:03.232 --> 00:32:07.637 However, oftentimes the meanings of . Nouns and verbs as far as the 00:32:07.637 --> 00:32:09.587 character is concerned is the same. 00:32:09.592 --> 00:32:13.817 Like the way you write fish in Chinese is the same way you write fish in Japanese. 00:32:14.297 --> 00:32:17.027 So I was like, okay, that wouldn't be that hard of a jump. 00:32:17.027 --> 00:32:19.907 But I don't really know much about Japan, and so my friends and I went 00:32:19.907 --> 00:32:23.717 to Japan in 2018 and we loved it. 00:32:23.887 --> 00:32:27.967 Ironically, I have been trying to go back to Japan since 2018 and something 00:32:27.967 --> 00:32:31.597 has always come up for three years, of which I think we know what that was. 00:32:31.867 --> 00:32:32.077 But, 00:32:32.242 --> 00:32:32.662 CJ: my God. 00:32:33.157 --> 00:32:36.067 , Lauren: and like I was supposed to go last year and then they weren't opening up, 00:32:36.072 --> 00:32:38.737 but I was like, come on, , let me back in. 00:32:39.167 --> 00:32:41.417 , but I do watch a lot of anime too cause I was also trying 00:32:41.417 --> 00:32:42.617 to get better at the language. 00:32:42.617 --> 00:32:46.577 I'm still very, juvenile and I refuse to give y'all any, so don't even ask. 00:32:47.647 --> 00:32:50.747 I'm not looking to embarrass myself, but, , it's been really fun. 00:32:50.762 --> 00:32:51.052 Duke: Okay. 00:32:51.072 --> 00:32:52.332 Throw some favorite titles out. 00:32:53.087 --> 00:32:53.927 Lauren: Of anime in 00:32:54.042 --> 00:32:54.462 Duke: Yeah. 00:32:54.764 --> 00:32:56.744 Lauren: so I, I hate shows that are too long. 00:32:56.744 --> 00:33:00.584 Like people have been trying to get me to watch shows, like one piece for years. 00:33:00.824 --> 00:33:02.954 that show has over a thousand episodes. 00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:03.789 CJ: Oh my God. 00:33:04.184 --> 00:33:05.139 Duke: mackerel. 00:33:05.154 --> 00:33:05.964 Lauren: would take me years. 00:33:05.964 --> 00:33:09.444 So I will recommend ones that are consumable and done. 00:33:09.514 --> 00:33:12.724 , my favorite anime of all time is called Mob Psycho 100. 00:33:12.874 --> 00:33:15.124 It is three seasons and it's already done. 00:33:15.334 --> 00:33:16.444 It is perfect. 00:33:16.709 --> 00:33:19.224 the animation style is unbelievable. 00:33:19.364 --> 00:33:22.154 I think there's about 12 episodes of season and they're only 30 00:33:22.154 --> 00:33:25.544 minutes, so you can rip through it pretty fast, and it is just, it's 00:33:25.544 --> 00:33:27.464 a beautiful story, beautiful story. 00:33:27.824 --> 00:33:30.194 Duke: Yeah, I don't have a, a big library to select from. 00:33:30.199 --> 00:33:32.324 I think I watched and enjoyed Princess Monano. 00:33:33.224 --> 00:33:33.554 Ages 00:33:33.629 --> 00:33:34.829 Lauren: I love Prince Monique. 00:33:35.294 --> 00:33:35.504 Duke: Yeah. 00:33:35.504 --> 00:33:39.974 I mean, but I, I'd probably like, I'd probably watch the animes that non anime 00:33:39.974 --> 00:33:41.654 fans are supposed to have heard about. 00:33:42.179 --> 00:33:42.539 Lauren: Yeah. 00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:44.669 That like Evangelion probably. 00:33:45.139 --> 00:33:46.509 Duke: I knew of it, but I missed that one. 00:33:46.509 --> 00:33:49.179 But as a kid, I was just obsessed with, Voltron, 00:33:49.644 --> 00:33:50.994 Lauren: Oh yeah, absolutely. 00:33:50.994 --> 00:33:51.354 Yeah. 00:33:51.414 --> 00:33:55.010 Duke: different, like, but now, even now as a grownup, looking back and, 00:33:55.010 --> 00:33:58.190 understanding the, like the business history of the Voltron brand in the 00:33:58.195 --> 00:34:02.540 US and how they got it from Japan and everything is just absolutely fascinating. 00:34:02.945 --> 00:34:04.925 Lauren: Oh yeah, that's always what's so difficult. 00:34:04.925 --> 00:34:08.125 Even if you really like anime in the states, , thank goodness for things for 00:34:08.125 --> 00:34:12.535 like streaming platforms becoming popular because prior to that, I mean, to be 00:34:12.535 --> 00:34:16.407 honest, like the only way you could get it was, uh, You know, probably not the 00:34:16.407 --> 00:34:20.547 nicest legal ways cause Cause there's so, cause there's so much red tape. 00:34:20.757 --> 00:34:21.147 Yeah. 00:34:21.147 --> 00:34:24.267 Cuz there's so much red tape with regards to the licensing of it. 00:34:24.447 --> 00:34:28.377 But now with like crunchy roll and there's a couple other, like high Dive I think has 00:34:28.377 --> 00:34:31.307 them, there's all these great streaming platforms that have like all the titles. 00:34:31.307 --> 00:34:31.707 It's great. 00:34:32.347 --> 00:34:34.597 Duke: Well, I've, I've also heard that manga is eating 00:34:34.597 --> 00:34:36.517 American Comic Producers lunch 00:34:36.927 --> 00:34:37.307 Lauren: Oh yeah. 00:34:37.447 --> 00:34:39.347 , Duke: like all the demand is shifted there all of a sudden. 00:34:39.937 --> 00:34:40.447 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:34:40.447 --> 00:34:44.877 Also, just the speed that they can put out, like chapters every week 00:34:44.877 --> 00:34:48.447 and it's just like pages and pages and pages, like beautiful artwork. 00:34:48.447 --> 00:34:49.287 I'm like, oh my gosh. 00:34:49.292 --> 00:34:50.877 How do y'all do like pace of it? 00:34:50.877 --> 00:34:52.197 It seems unrelenting. 00:34:53.397 --> 00:34:53.577 CJ: Yeah. 00:34:53.577 --> 00:34:54.507 See, I love this, right? 00:34:54.507 --> 00:34:57.537 Like, cuz more competition ends up making better content, right? 00:34:57.542 --> 00:35:01.777 And so now , and I'm not a consumer of either Mongo or, , anime, , very much. 00:35:01.782 --> 00:35:04.237 But I was very much a, a Voltron fan and. 00:35:05.032 --> 00:35:06.262 Duke: Five Lions Voltron, right? 00:35:06.262 --> 00:35:07.162 The real Voltron. 00:35:07.202 --> 00:35:07.562 CJ: Yeah. 00:35:07.562 --> 00:35:08.192 Absolutely. 00:35:08.192 --> 00:35:08.912 Absolutely. 00:35:11.762 --> 00:35:14.612 you know what I love is that just, this stuff's just popular, right? 00:35:14.612 --> 00:35:16.542 And what I love about the internet so much, right? 00:35:16.547 --> 00:35:20.872 Is that you can find your thing or your people now because the 00:35:20.902 --> 00:35:23.212 entire world is connected, right? 00:35:23.282 --> 00:35:26.277 Lauren: so nice, like even if you have a very niche interest, like 00:35:26.277 --> 00:35:28.707 there is a community for it somewhere. 00:35:28.707 --> 00:35:31.677 It might be on TikTok, it might be on YouTube, might be on Twitter, 00:35:31.857 --> 00:35:33.177 but there is a community for it. 00:35:33.177 --> 00:35:33.987 You just have to look. 00:35:34.722 --> 00:35:35.742 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:36.112 --> 00:35:36.442 And 00:35:36.517 --> 00:35:37.387 Duke: know, oh, sorry. 00:35:37.387 --> 00:35:37.657 Go ahead 00:35:37.702 --> 00:35:38.062 CJ: no, go ahead. 00:35:38.537 --> 00:35:39.367 Duke: No, no, you're sure. 00:35:39.367 --> 00:35:39.727 Go ahead. 00:35:43.597 --> 00:35:46.627 Um, I was gonna change topics too, so I guess we'll just rock paper. 00:35:47.272 --> 00:35:47.932 CJ: Alright, cool. 00:35:47.932 --> 00:35:53.552 So what is, so you mentioned like, uh, you meant community, which is a great segue 00:35:53.552 --> 00:35:55.592 to, you know, developer MVP and advocacy. 00:35:55.592 --> 00:35:55.862 Right. 00:35:55.862 --> 00:35:57.009 And, community as a whole. 00:35:57.009 --> 00:35:59.379 And what I love about, you know, ServiceNow is that they really get 00:35:59.469 --> 00:36:01.119 com community, You know what I mean? 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:04.209 And you know, and especially when you think about it from 00:36:04.209 --> 00:36:07.239 the perspective of this is a multi-billion dollar business, right? 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:07.599 And. 00:36:08.084 --> 00:36:13.274 When I'm interacting in the community, I feel like ServiceNow is down the street. 00:36:14.404 --> 00:36:14.694 Duke: Yeah. 00:36:14.744 --> 00:36:15.464 CJ: know what I mean? 00:36:15.524 --> 00:36:19.634 , I know people from across the world and when I see them, like they know me and 00:36:19.634 --> 00:36:21.319 , it's like we've haven't missed a beat. 00:36:21.319 --> 00:36:26.719 And all of that is facilitated by the ServiceNow community that this humongous 00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.659 brand is putting together is amazing. 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:30.299 Lauren: That 00:36:30.389 --> 00:36:32.099 Duke: everybody feels like one of us, right? 00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:34.469 Like my friend Chuck, just put out a new video. 00:36:34.709 --> 00:36:35.459 Lauren: Yeah. 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:37.169 Uh, that means the world to me. 00:36:37.169 --> 00:36:40.319 To hear you say that cuz that's exactly how I felt about the brand back in 00:36:40.319 --> 00:36:42.119 2016 when I was still a customer. 00:36:42.209 --> 00:36:46.319 And so that's as we've grown dramatically since then. 00:36:46.319 --> 00:36:49.764 I look back to see what my employee number was and I realized that I'm 00:36:49.764 --> 00:36:53.964 one of the few people that has an employee number less than 10,000. 00:36:54.054 --> 00:36:54.324 Right. 00:36:54.324 --> 00:36:56.964 I think we're over like the 30,000 now internally. 00:36:57.229 --> 00:36:57.519 Duke: What 00:36:57.644 --> 00:36:57.789 CJ: wow. 00:36:58.164 --> 00:37:00.864 Lauren: And so I've always been afraid , at the breakneck 00:37:00.864 --> 00:37:01.884 speed that, that we're growing. 00:37:01.884 --> 00:37:03.624 I hope that's not something that's lost. 00:37:03.804 --> 00:37:05.904 So that means the world to me, to hear you say that. 00:37:06.024 --> 00:37:08.304 I, I know that there's specific people at the company too 00:37:08.304 --> 00:37:09.654 that really fight for that. 00:37:09.774 --> 00:37:14.334 Like Earl Duque, I would say on our team especially is like the number one advocate 00:37:14.339 --> 00:37:16.104 for keeping that community so close. 00:37:16.374 --> 00:37:21.224 And, , those people are absolutely like invaluable to making sure this 00:37:21.224 --> 00:37:22.924 still feels like , a community, 00:37:22.974 --> 00:37:23.264 . CJ: Yeah, 00:37:23.484 --> 00:37:26.842 Duke: tell you, as somebody who did, so many ServiceNow hackathons and at least 00:37:26.847 --> 00:37:28.642 watched hackathons, I wasn't a part of. 00:37:28.912 --> 00:37:32.812 Earl knocked the hackathon out of the park this year at K 23. 00:37:32.932 --> 00:37:33.022 I've 00:37:33.157 --> 00:37:34.297 Lauren: I'm gonna send him that soundbite 00:37:34.642 --> 00:37:37.252 Duke: super, super shout out to earl on that one. 00:37:37.487 --> 00:37:38.287 Lauren: a million percent 00:37:38.302 --> 00:37:38.872 Duke: hackathon for, 00:37:39.247 --> 00:37:39.727 CJ: absolutely. 00:37:39.732 --> 00:37:40.417 Errol's amazing. 00:37:40.687 --> 00:37:43.747 Lauren: and we made sure to have some people s aid you the whole time too. 00:37:43.747 --> 00:37:44.287 It was perfect. 00:37:44.287 --> 00:37:44.707 Right? 00:37:46.402 --> 00:37:48.652 Duke: Oh yeah, the um, uh, the 00:37:48.772 --> 00:37:49.612 Lauren: was right next door. 00:37:49.612 --> 00:37:50.302 It's perfect. 00:37:50.302 --> 00:37:50.632 Right? 00:37:51.082 --> 00:37:52.612 No one got annoyed by that. 00:37:52.612 --> 00:37:53.362 No one did. 00:37:57.202 --> 00:37:57.922 Duke: Didn't show up. 00:38:00.457 --> 00:38:01.747 CJ: Develop under pressure. 00:38:01.747 --> 00:38:01.987 Right? 00:38:01.987 --> 00:38:02.627 That's part of the. 00:38:03.592 --> 00:38:04.102 Lauren: Absolutely. 00:38:04.102 --> 00:38:07.342 That's part of the first round , it's like a, it's survivor challenge. 00:38:07.342 --> 00:38:07.552 Right? 00:38:07.552 --> 00:38:08.482 That's the first of all, 00:38:09.622 --> 00:38:12.562 Duke: Hey, listen, at K 13, they had a live band, 00:38:13.672 --> 00:38:14.392 Lauren: the hackathon. 00:38:14.452 --> 00:38:16.222 Duke: yes for the hackathon, not 00:38:16.237 --> 00:38:16.327 Lauren: God. 00:38:16.702 --> 00:38:17.002 Duke: the hackathon. 00:38:17.362 --> 00:38:21.742 And they had every speaker, like every speaker in that whole 00:38:21.847 --> 00:38:23.617 Lauren: that's really rough. 00:38:24.037 --> 00:38:25.047 That's really rough. 00:38:25.162 --> 00:38:27.592 Duke: gotta build a business role to do this. 00:38:28.492 --> 00:38:30.342 What I said. 00:38:37.552 --> 00:38:39.232 CJ: Oh, man, that's, that's hilarious. 00:38:41.202 --> 00:38:45.732 So, Lauren, if there was any parting words that you would give to folks listening 00:38:45.732 --> 00:38:49.875 to the show, any insight or anything that you'd like to share, what would you say? 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.400 Lauren: Ooh, let me think about that for a moment. 00:38:53.660 --> 00:38:56.000 Duke: also say it in Chinese, in 00:38:56.270 --> 00:38:57.680 Lauren: Which absolutely not. 00:38:57.680 --> 00:39:00.770 I, like I said, I refuse until I get at least an iota better. 00:39:00.870 --> 00:39:04.830 , I will say because I, we've talked a lot about like community and 00:39:05.130 --> 00:39:08.130 advocacy, both for others and yourself. 00:39:08.375 --> 00:39:12.939 Oftentimes people are afraid to put themselves out there, especially on things 00:39:12.939 --> 00:39:14.709 like social media and stuff like that. 00:39:14.782 --> 00:39:20.272 but, and I, I mentioned this a little bit when I was talking to people at Knowledge, 00:39:20.542 --> 00:39:24.922 the best thing that you can do is be an advocate for the successes that you have. 00:39:25.222 --> 00:39:28.132 , I think a lot of times in life, like we wait for other people to speak 00:39:28.132 --> 00:39:32.032 on our behalf because we're afraid of appearing like overconfident 00:39:32.032 --> 00:39:33.472 or braggy or anything like that. 00:39:33.472 --> 00:39:36.892 I know I personally, I just had , my like half year conversation 00:39:36.892 --> 00:39:39.052 with my boss and I was like, all right, what could I improve on? 00:39:39.262 --> 00:39:41.272 And he's like, your confidence level. 00:39:41.272 --> 00:39:43.882 He's like, everyone thinks you're doing a good job except you, 00:39:44.122 --> 00:39:45.672 so you need, to work on that. 00:39:45.942 --> 00:39:49.722 And I think that's a advice a lot of people need to hear. 00:39:49.942 --> 00:39:52.072 so many people work so. 00:39:52.432 --> 00:39:58.042 Diligently and so hard and produce really awesome things, and sometimes 00:39:58.462 --> 00:40:00.382 people just don't know about them, right? 00:40:00.935 --> 00:40:03.035 , there's a great book by Austin Kleon. 00:40:03.035 --> 00:40:04.745 It's called Steal Like an Artist. 00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:08.105 And he talks about a lot of things that artists do. 00:40:08.650 --> 00:40:11.860 To make themselves better at art, but there's a lot of applicable knowledge 00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:13.510 in there as well, just in general. 00:40:13.600 --> 00:40:17.680 And one thing he talks about is that documenting the process should 00:40:17.680 --> 00:40:19.660 be part of your process, right? 00:40:19.900 --> 00:40:22.180 show you how you built this thing. 00:40:22.180 --> 00:40:26.170 Create a little snapshot of the improvements made, throw 00:40:26.170 --> 00:40:27.310 it up on LinkedIn or Twitter. 00:40:27.530 --> 00:40:29.990 because if anything too that documenting the process is 00:40:29.990 --> 00:40:31.460 helpful for you in the future. 00:40:31.700 --> 00:40:34.880 Therefore, you know, like what you did, how it improved. 00:40:35.225 --> 00:40:38.825 What you have tried and maybe didn't work, but other people can learn from 00:40:38.825 --> 00:40:40.685 you too and learn from your successes. 00:40:41.075 --> 00:40:45.825 And I think, , being able to showcase that publicly is a great skill. 00:40:45.885 --> 00:40:48.860 I think that is something that we should all work to do. 00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:49.700 It's pretty cool. 00:40:49.770 --> 00:40:50.190 Thanks. 00:40:50.925 --> 00:40:51.525 CJ: I love that. 00:40:51.700 --> 00:40:52.270 Duke: advice. 00:40:52.545 --> 00:40:54.405 CJ: Absolutely amazed in advice. 00:40:54.740 --> 00:40:58.190 Lauren: It's advice I need to follow, so that's why I mention it. 00:40:59.370 --> 00:41:01.110 CJ: But it's hard for everyone, right? 00:41:01.110 --> 00:41:02.250 Like that's just amazing advice. 00:41:02.260 --> 00:41:05.130 Seriously , listen to that and take it to heart because none of 00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:06.570 us really do suffer from promotion. 00:41:06.570 --> 00:41:07.050 Well, why? 00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:10.500 I think our culture is really kind of steered to not doing it right. 00:41:10.515 --> 00:41:11.175 Lauren: Yeah. 00:41:11.657 --> 00:41:14.777 Duke: All right, that's 45 minutes to record and we'd like to thank you again, 00:41:14.777 --> 00:41:16.247 Lauren, for joining us on this show. 00:41:16.527 --> 00:41:17.877 , it was our pleasure to have you here. 00:41:18.252 --> 00:41:19.392 Lauren: Oh, it was my pleasure to be here. 00:41:19.392 --> 00:41:20.892 Thank y'all again for inviting me. 00:41:20.892 --> 00:41:22.332 I, this is such a fun time. 00:41:22.337 --> 00:41:22.932 Thank you. 00:41:23.232 --> 00:41:23.682 CJ: Oh my God. 00:41:23.682 --> 00:41:24.192 That's amazing. 00:41:24.192 --> 00:41:25.062 Thank you so much.