[MUSIC]
Well, hello and welcome to another
episode of Undercooled.
Today, we're here with Professor Willie
Rockward from Morgan State University.
I've known Willie for many, many years
when I started to go
down to Morehouse College
to recruit students from
my research experience for
undergraduates program in France, the
optics in the city of late.
And I got to sit in and watch Willie
teach physics to his students at an HBCU.
And it was amazing.
I've since maintained a relationship with
Willie for many years, and
we've even had a student from Morgan
State who went to our
program last summer.
But I've really seen what he's done to
the National Society of Black Physicists,
how he helped revive the whole
organization that was in
pretty severe financial shape.
And now they're in pretty
amazing financial shape and
probably partially because
of Willie and his vision.
And when he talks, it's great.
So Willie, why don't you tell us a little
bit about your background?
How did you get into physics?
How did you start teaching
and what are you doing now?
Wow, wow, well, Steve, thank you first
and foremost for
inviting me to participate in
this podcast.
And this is share, share in
my pathway and things I do.
Yes, we did meet a while back.
And I think you have
very fruitful engagement.
Well, a little bit about me.
I'm a Louisiana boy born
in the bayous of Louisiana,
South Louisiana below New Orleans.
Believe me, there's a
city below New Orleans.
But then also did my
undergrad and all that stuff.
Well, how I got into
physics was very strange.
Okay, I got into
physics through football.
I was a football player, high school
football star running back,
receiver, kickoff return, punt return,
all that kind of stuff.
And but my real, so my passion really was
football at the time.
But I wanted to play for Grambling, a
very famous coach, Eddie Robinson,
at Grambling State
University in Louisiana.
That's in the northern part of Louisiana.
And I just, anyway, I
tried on and made the team.
All they offered me was
a physics scholarship.
But I tried on and
made the football team.
And I made it and played for Coach Rob
for about maybe two,
three weeks in practice.
Cuz the linebacker hit me so hard, I was
like, okay, yeah, I
can't keep doing this.
[LAUGH] But nevertheless, and since then,
I've been in the physics hot and heavy.
But anyway, we were at Morehouse.
I was a professor at Morehouse about six
years ago, about 20 years.
And now I'm at Morgan State, chair of the
Department of Physics here, and
we're having a great time.
So that's a quick, very snippet of me.
But I'm engaged in all levels of
mentorship with students.
My expertise is in the
area of optics and lasers.
Did the research more in diffractive
optics, lithography,
nano lithography, things of that nature.
And been doing a little bit recent
research in some metamaterials and
things like that, so.
Fantastic.
So one of the things that I think our
materials community would love to hear
from you is what do we need
to know at our primarily white
institutions about
African American students?
And we get students from Africa, and
they're different than
students from America.
And so I know that
you've primarily focused
on African Americans.
So what do we need to know
about African American students?
Because where I wanna go with this is I
wanna learn how we can do the best
possible job to support them, make sure
they feel like they belong.
And make sure that we meet
them wherever they are and
bring them forward so they're successful.
So what should we need to know about
African American students?
Okay, that's a good
question, that's a solid question.
I mean, in a sense to me, it's both.
Yes, you need to know about African
American students and
some distinguishing factors, okay?
And history makes a big, history lays out
a lot too of your culture and
your situation and your
perspective, all right?
And what African Americans do, you gotta
understand they all don't come with
a standard background, right?
They don't come all prepared for physics
or material science.
They come as raw material, okay?
Meaning like, okay, in the raw, but if
you're able to process this some and
deal with this some,
you'll be able to refine it and
get it to where it needs to be in.
And that means, okay,
some have other issues,
non-academic issues that
affect their academics, okay?
And then there's some come
just solid, straightforward.
But a good thing you need to know is that
we are relational people, all right?
African Americans are
relational mean like,
I'm not gonna really get to know you or
feel belong unless I feel you out for
my good, for my
improvement, my betterment.
And that takes an opportunity to get to
know you more than just in the classroom,
okay?
But I begin to know you from the
classroom, your classroom dynamics,
from your classroom perspectives, from
your classroom assignments,
from how you would engage with me as I'm
watching you engage with other students
too, okay?
Are you just being, are you giving me a
special kind of way and
giving other students
another kind of way?
No, no, if you're gonna, if all of us are
your students, give us all the same way,
okay? If you're gonna be hard on me,
you'd be hard on everybody.
You're gonna be, give this
student some opportunities,
give all your students opportunities.
So just come with a consistent approach
and a consistent year.
And that begins to open, allows me as an
African American student to wanna open up
and get to know you more as a professor
and respect you in that regard.
So, yes, it's not as
difficult as it sounds.
It really is being consistent and being
genuine to all students,
and especially African
American students too.
And that way we will see that we're part
of your group of students, period.
That's great.
And so you've been at Morehouse and now
you're at Morgan State.
And you've been dealing with students who
come from, like you said,
a very wide range of backgrounds.
Some of these backgrounds are really
backgrounds that are pretty tough.
Students who come from very
underprivileged economically and also
dangerous childhoods with...
So how do you help the students who come
from the worst backgrounds?
How do you, do you engage the other
students to help you?
From what I saw, the whole ethos of the
institution is all around helping others.
I'll never forget the first
NSBE meeting I went to at AUC.
There's a woman from
Spelman who is the president.
The room was packed and
they started by saying,
"Well, we're gonna start this by standing
up and reciting our mission."
And I'm like thinking, "Oh my God, that's
ridiculous. Who cares
about mission statements?"
And then I heard it and I was so moved.
It was almost religious because their
mission statement was
all about reaching down
and helping their brothers and sisters
have the opportunities that they've been
blessed to have themselves.
It's like, that was powerful.
Now this doesn't happen.
I mean, it might happen at NSBE meetings
here, but it's not part of our ethos the
way it is at an HBCU.
So maybe at an HBCU, how you leverage
that to help the students with the most
disadvantaged backgrounds,
the students who are further
behind in your physics class.
Well, you hit some of the good points in
bringing them along.
Part of it is to bring someone along,
they need to belong, to
bring them along, right?
And to do so, you gotta see what areas
that they would fit in.
What areas they seem to
have some connection to.
And so one of the things I always do to
help my students with
different backgrounds,
the worst ones and even some with the
better ones, you can say,
I always pull them into my
office and have a one-on-one.
A one-on-one and I
listen to them carefully.
I ask my basic
question, what's your passion?
Where do you see yourself?
You 18, 19, maybe 20, add 10 years to
yourself and what do
you see yourself doing?
So I try to drive home,
find out what their passion is.
And then I say, okay, well then once they
start talking and some of
them may say, I don't know.
I say, okay, but what do you like?
Okay, so I keep the
question around them, okay?
And as they engage with me, I listen
intently and I make mental notes,
mental notes, what is unique with them.
And so therefore, as I'm
going into the classroom,
I try to make sure I'm pointing certain
opportunities and certain,
even some certain material that may
overlap their background.
So I don't necessarily call them out on
the spot, but I give them
opportunity to respond to me.
So when we are talking
one-on-one in my office,
I also share with them some of my
personal challenges.
I have to keep reminding them, like,
look, you're seeing
me at a refined state.
I wasn't always this way.
We go through a growth patterns and all
of us, I say, everyone, the professors,
all of us have had our
challenging point too.
I say, but every last one of us also has
someone who was like a champion for us,
someone who helped us along and they
didn't have, they didn't have,
it was, they didn't
have nothing behind it.
You know, they didn't have any hidden
agendas or anything.
They wanted to help you, they wanted to
help me and help us become the best
people we can become.
Okay.
And I say, and that's the same thing I'm
trying to do for you.
I want to give you my support.
I say, but I'm also, I'm also expecting
you to put forth your best effort.
I'm expecting you to let me know when you
need some help or you,
you feel like you can't quite make it or
you just don't know,
or you just want to sit
down and just want to chat.
Okay.
So I make sure that they're engaged and
they don't see me as this.
I'm the one, you know, some savior to
solve all their problems,
but I also help them to see that, hey, I
am a resource for you to be here,
to help you out.
And you got to take advantage of it, you
know, as best as we can.
And so when they start feeling that after
a couple of meetings,
they begin to start really, I mean, I saw
some, I saw seeing
them really, really grow.
That's awesome.
And when I saw you teach in the
classroom, you were
tough on those students,
really tough.
And it was uniform, all of them.
But when I walked out and talked to the
students, they all loved you
and they loved you because you love them.
And so I walked, what I got from that is
you had this pedagogy of tough love.
And I just think that was amazing.
And I wish I could do what you did.
And so any advice for how
to be tough on your students
and still make sure that they
love you, that you love them.
How do you communicate that you love
them, even though
you're being tough on them?
Oh, I don't know my secret sauce yet on
that one, but I give you some tough love.
Well, to me, it's like, you know, I try
to make sure they know.
Okay, this one thing I always tell them
too, is I tell them I have a motto.
I say my motto from all of
my classes is hard, but fair.
I say hard, but fair.
And I say really, I'm
not really that fair.
And they were like, what you mean?
I said, well, you really want me to be
fair to you because if I be fair, fair,
that means I only give you what you made
or what it is or what the facts say.
I say, but I also look at, you know, I
weigh in you as a person.
Okay.
I weigh in your effort.
I weigh in all those things, those
factors that, you know,
I say, and to be honest with you, a lot
of professors do that.
We look at our students, you
know, from where you've come,
we look at your trend and how you've
grown in this class.
So I say, but I say, but
what I will do for one of you,
I will do for every last one of you all.
But that also means I
will not do for one of you.
I won't do for nobody.
Okay.
I say, so you can count on me being that.
Okay.
And I say, and then I try to help them
also grow out of their,
out of their, the me, the
me myself and I mindset.
But I say, I said, okay.
I say, you got to remember this.
I say, you got, you got to learn to
follow the lead of your
professor or the lead of
whoever's in charge or responsible for
this class or whatever it may be.
It may be on your job.
Okay.
I say, you got to understand, especially
in the class, that we as professors,
first of all, this is
not our first rodeo.
This is not our first time teaching this
class in most cases.
I said, but the bottom line, even if it
is our first time teaching the class,
we know what we're
going to put on the exam.
We know what we know what
the class is going to look like
from the, for the whole length of the, of
the, of the semester.
I say, you don't.
I say, so what you gotta
do, you got to lean on mine.
Okay.
You on that.
Okay.
So you got to get in my
mindset as a professor.
I say, so when you start thinking about
it from that perspective,
you will be able to start listening to me
and picking up on me and picking up on
stuff that I'm really
emphasizing and things like that.
And some stuff that I'm
telling you, Hey, go and finish that.
You know, that's, that's like a hint
saying you're going to see that again.
And so, so, um, so I kind of
coached them along the way.
And when, when we outside of the
classroom, they see the same guy.
They don't see somebody who I, I look
down on them, um, or anything like that.
You know, I, I mean, I keep
them in the proper perspective.
They do address me by my
title, doc, you know, you know, Dr.
Rockward.
Well, most of them can't
call me by my last name.
You know, so they just call me Dr.
Rock.
Okay.
And I told them that's fine.
That's fine like that.
But, you know, and we, we have a mutual
respect, a professional mutual respect,
both in the classroom
and outside the classroom.
Now, yes, in the classroom, I got some
rules and regulations and like one of my
rules, especially at Morehouse and even
brought up here at Morgan in our
physical class, you
can't write in a pencil.
They know if I see a pencil hanging out
your book bag, I'm going
to kick you out my class.
And they're like, what?
I say, yes.
I said, because in the physics arena, we,
we've learned to write things down.
So we, we learn to be intentional in our
thoughts and we try to be careful.
And then so we, so when we write in pen,
if we make a mistake, we just draw a line
through it and it's all right to the left
or to the right, because
sometimes we think we were
right.
We were doing something wrong, but we
actually was doing it right.
But if you scratch it out and you use a
pencil, you're going to
erase and you won't have
nothing to compare it to.
I said, so in physics, we're
not afraid to make mistakes.
We learn from our mistakes.
I said, and that's what we want to keep
driving home, driving with you.
Don't be afraid to make mistakes.
Now some mistakes you shouldn't be making
because you saw them.
Other people make those mistakes.
Right.
I say, so some stuff you should not be
doing, but there's some,
there's some new mistakes
to be made because there's some new
problems to be solved.
And so, and so when they start seeing
that perspective and I
even share with them some
of the mistakes that I've
even made in my personal life.
Okay.
Along the way where I'm at now and
they're like, wow, Dr.
Rock, right?
I said, no, I'm not perfect.
I'm human like you.
I still make mistakes.
And I said, but I said, that's just some
stuff I've grown past.
And, and so they, they, they opens them
up and they get the
chance to see me as a human,
a human as I've grown and matured on my
pathway and that
they're more, they're more
susceptible and willing to jump on their
pathway, which may not be a common one.
So I try to, so I'm trying to motivate
them as I also, you know, push them.
And I think that, I think that's that
mixture of tough love.
So they, they, they're willing to,
they're willing to
receive the correction and the
toughness of behind me
because they know I love them.
Right.
You know what I'm saying?
They not care about them.
So, and you reveal your human side and
you don't do that unless
you really love somebody.
Yes.
So that's, that's really awesome.
So, at our institution, you know, we're
involved in a new DEI effort.
I actually was on a listening panel
talking about their new DEI 2.0.
And I got a little upset at people
because it's written
like "administratium."
It's like, here's what we're
going to do for recruiting.
Here's what we're
going to do for retention.
And I'm like, wait a minute, hold on.
You know, first of all, and then the
pathway for each of these
things was talks and training.
And I'm like, why is the knee jerk
reaction for academia to solve every
problem with a lecture?
It's like, why are you even doing that?
Why don't you focus on what is the
problem and how are we going to solve it?
I said, how can you talk about recruiting
when we have a large
number of African-American
students who have told us that they don't
feel like they belong?
Don't we have to work on that first?
Because who's the best people to recruit?
It's students.
Yes, that's true.
Right now, we've been told that sometimes
some students will go to
NSBE, and NSBE students will
say, "Oh, don't come here.
This is not a good environment."
It used to be better. It used to be
really good. And we're struggling.
And so I stood up and said, you need to
solve this problem first.
You need to understand why they don't
feel like they belong,
and we need to correct that.
And you shouldn't give faculty
credit for going to DEI talks.
You should give faculty credit for doing
direct action things.
How many underrepresented minorities are
they including in their research lab?
How many recruiting
trips are they going on?
How many students are they mentoring who
are underrepresented?
This is true for all... It's not just
African-Americans. It's all of our
underrepresented minorities. It's also
our transfer students.
They're really at risk. They come in and
they don't know anybody.
And so I've been trying to focus them on
doing things that I think
are important, which is,
what can we do to make our
students feel more welcome?
And this is kind of a problem for us that
you don't really have, I don't think,
at an HBCU, because the whole institution
is focused on making
everybody feel welcome.
But then they come here and we blow it.
So what advice do you have
for us so we don't blow it?
How can we make our students feel welcome
across the whole institution?
Wow. Wow. That's... Okay. That's gonna
take up the rest of this podcast.
But I can give you a couple of nuggets.
And you kind of hit one major nugget is
that it has to be intuitionized.
The institution has to see that all of
its students... Okay.
Yes, yes, underrepresented minorities,
but everybody is important.
All of my students are important and my
faculty is important and my
staff is important, right?
Because if we don't have the
infrastructure and support structure, we
can't get our students through.
So all of us are important. All right.
And so one of the biggest things I've
always tried my best to do
and I share with them is okay.
To really help a student feel belong,
it's gonna take extra time.
It's gonna take extra exposure.
It's gonna take you...
You know, they're gonna take a whole
village to kind of do...
You can't... No one person can do it all,
but as a village, a
collective, we can get it done, right?
Because there's some areas like say you,
Steve, you're very good.
You're very encouraging. You're very
motivational in the sense you...
and not helping me to
understand anything.
So you're also making ways
and resources for me to help.
So providing resources, provide insight.
And like you say,
sometimes structuring opportunities
for them to get into study groups.
Because if you come
as a transfer student,
or you come in as a dual degree
engineering student who
spent two or three years
at another institution,
now you come into this major institution.
Or even as an undergrad
going to graduate school
at your institution in Michigan.
I'm going to a whole new culture.
I'm going to a whole new environment.
And it's good to have somebody there
who I can relate to and connect to.
And it always has to look like me.
But it'd be good to have something
that does look like me, but also to know
that everyone don't have
to look like you to want you
to be a part of the community.
Yeah, we're just starting some programs.
So in our literature
sciences and arts college,
they have some very
good study group systems
where people can sign up for a time.
And once you have 15
people, that one's closed.
Then they pay a student who
did well in the course, who's
now an upperclassman,
they pay that student
to mentor that study group.
And they do it on Zoom.
So you have no idea
who's in the study group
until you first meet.
But the benefit is you
actually get a student, someone
your age, who knows the material, who
can help drive the conversation.
And I think this is great.
So I've asked if we can
do that in engineering.
And I've actually
gotten a lot of support.
I think the dean's like this idea.
It's not that expensive.
And I actually found out that
some of the other departments
are already doing things like this.
And we're going to do it.
We're just going to use--
what's that tool called?
My wife did it for when my
kids were in high school.
Signup Genius.
With a free Signup Genius account,
you can have students
sign up for different times.
And it doesn't cost anything.
We just pay the student.
And I love paying undergrads $18 an hour
to teach other students.
Because it's like the
first time in their life
they ever got paid for what they just
paid all that money for.
And they're actually using what they just
learned and making money.
I think that's a wonderful thing.
And so I do that in my class.
And I'm not going to
convince the other faculty
to do what I do.
But I use team-based teaching.
In all of my classes.
And so I make the teams.
And I make the teams based on the
diversity in the classroom.
Making sure I don't strand a URM.
Make sure there's at
least two or two women.
But we have so much
diversity in our classes.
I teach a class where I have first year
through fourth year.
I teach a class where I have all these
different departments.
This term I'm
teaching an archaeology class
with an archaeology professor.
And so we have people who
are sociology majors, who
are business majors.
Last year I even had one
of the hockey team players
who left in the middle of the term.
Because he got drafted
by the New Jersey Devils.
But when you have all
those different voices,
not only will people
start to understand and value
diversity for what it can
bring to the success of a team,
it also creates built-in study groups.
Because the team has to stick together.
And I teach them.
And then I hire instructional aides,
which are undergrads, to
help mentor these teams.
And I quickly realized
they should rename it.
IA shouldn't mean instructional aid.
It should be inclusion ambassador.
And what they do is
they watch these teams.
And they're their age.
And I tell everyone
they're going to do this.
If you're an introvert
and you just sit there
and don't say anything,
you're not helping yourself.
No one's going to know that
you have something of value
to give to the rest of the team.
And it goes right back
to your football roots.
We had our coach, Beau Schembechler,
who painted famously on the
tunnel, the team, the team,
the team.
Nothing matters except
the success of the team.
And guess what?
That's where all of our
students end up in industry.
It's all about the team.
And so you have to help the
other members of your team
be the best they can so the
team can be the best they can.
And so they pull the
introverts aside and say, hey,
I know this is tough.
But later on, I'm
going to be calling on you.
And it's not because
I'm trying to be mean.
I just need you to let others know.
You have something valuable to say.
And we do the same with the extroverts.
We tell them, you have
to learn how to listen.
You can't-- I had a student once.
He got marked down on a project because
all of his teammates
hated him.
And he came up to me.
He goes, I did everything for that team.
It was my idea.
I did all the research.
I built the project.
I was the one who did everything.
And I said, I hear you.
I hear you.
And you didn't let
anyone else do anything.
And they were pretty upset about that.
And so that's why you got marked down
because you didn't let
others have a chance.
And so I'm sorry.
That's a tough lesson to learn this way.
But that's how we do it.
So anyway, there's lots of techniques.
And I wish more faculty were open to--
I mean, it comes down to what you said.
The institution has to change.
Yes.
How do I convince my
colleagues to do this?
So we get accredited by a group called
ABET for engineering.
And I have a good friend
who's way up high in ABET.
And they're now going through diversity
DEI criteria for ABET.
It's very difficult.
So they haven't quite done it.
But what he told me was really valuable.
He says, listen, it's not
about so much giving people
an unfair advantage or any of that.
It's about the fact
that our students are going
to get an industry.
And they're going to
work with diverse teams.
They have to learn in school
how to work with a diverse team
so they hit the ground
running when they go to industry.
I just thought that was
an interesting perspective.
Yeah.
That's a full perspective.
You actually look at it.
And diversity of the team
is becoming more than just
national now.
It's global.
Oh, yeah.
You know, the most successful teams
are being very effective
not just in their regional
or national area.
They're being effective globally in a
variety of countries
and things like that.
So you're right.
He has something.
We got it.
We have to train ourselves, which means
we have to retrain ourselves sometimes.
That's right.
But you just look at football again.
Why did we win the
national championship this year?
We won because we had an amazing defense
and we had an amazing offense.
And we had all these different players
that had all these different strengths,
who's incredibly-- you win football games
by having tremendous
diversity where you need it.
And then you make
sure you play as a team.
That's true.
And you just got to
continue to stay at it
and look at the variety that everyone
brings to the table.
I just believe the
institution is going to make a big--
it has to come from the top.
I think there's going to be
a grassroots movement, too.
But they have to be
able to see that, OK, our--
at the top, they're
just in support of it,
as well as we're
going through grassroots.
They're making it institutionalized.
And I hope that's happening in Michigan.
I think our new president
is very focused on this.
He's an Asian-American.
And when he was living
and when he was growing up,
he felt lots of racism.
And it hurt him personally.
And he talks about it.
And so I know he's really committed.
But it's really hard to
change an institution.
It's still really hard.
And I wonder, maybe by
being more engaged with faculty
at HBCUs would help teach our faculty.
I know I learned so much
by going and visiting him
and the other faculty who are down there.
It was really important for
my growth as a human being
to see how powerful that
kind of an institution can be.
And that's one reason I
asked you to be on this podcast,
because hopefully we
can give that to others.
But how can more faculty from
primarily white universities
get involved with faculty there?
And I know there's been
a lot of abuse of white--
primarily white institutions trying
to get money by at the last minute
partnering on a research
grant and all of that.
And that's not helpful to anybody.
And hopefully our funding institutions
will figure that out.
But how can faculty and especially
materials programs--
because guess what
kind of graduate students
we love the most?
We love physics
graduate students or physics
undergrads who can come
in because all the concepts
in material science are either
physics or chemistry concepts.
So most of us come from different fields.
I was a math major.
I was not a material
science undergraduate.
And most of our faculty were
not material science majors.
We were all chemistry or physics.
And so I think we need
really good students.
How can they get engaged
with, say, Morgan State?
I would say that's
something Morgan State is doing.
We made it recently.
Well, the past couple of
years, our president, actually
is into institutional partnerships, where
we're partnering with Purdue University
across institutions.
Not just, say, in our physics departments
or in our engineering departments,
but literally across the institutions
where they're doing a lot
of dual degree programs,
two-way exchanges,
because many of the students
at a predominantly white institution
would love to spend a semester or two
or even do a degree program at an HBCU.
And so things of that nature
is making it much more real
and engaging for the
faculty, because the faculty
at both institutions
need to be in partnership.
We are the infrastructure for our
students that comes in.
The new student comes
into the institution.
They're going to meet
pretty much the same faculty
within good reason.
And so the faculty need
to be connected to HBCUs
and likewise to PWIs so
that we can form a good--
I call it a good pipe, a good pipe for a
very robust pipeline.
You want a pipeline of students.
That means in order to
get the students flowing,
you need to have a pipe.
And the pipe is the faculty.
And so we can continue to
work together like that.
We'll be able to give
our students a lot more
opportunities.
And they'll get a sense of belonging.
Say, like I said,
underrepresented minority
coming from HBCU, we get a
greater sense of belonging
by already being connected to the PWI
before they even get there.
OK.
And that's how their
productivity level really
goes off the roof.
I mean, you just see
them really, really blossom.
Now, NSF has some
very interesting programs
to help facilitate some of
this with our PREM program.
Yes.
How does a PWI get
involved with a minority serving
institution to start a PREM?
I presume it's first you
need good relationships
with the faculty.
Yes.
Yes, that's true.
I mean, that's what's going
on with us in Morgan right now.
We have a PREM grant in materials.
And so we actually connect with PWIs,
John Hopkins, Penn State,
things like that in different areas.
and go out and win a lot more grants.
- That's great.
Well, we actually--
- And they actually gained
their students a lot too.
- That's right.
So we just got a MRSEC that just started
at three weeks ago.
- Wow.
- And it's run by Rachel Goldman.
And one of Rachel's
students is Jared Mitchell.
Remember Jared?
- Jared Mitchell, yeah.
- Yeah.
- He was one of your students.
- Yes, yes.
- Who went to the
optics in the city of L.A.T.
and he's about to graduate.
What an amazing student.
And so I will be calling
you in a very short time
to ask about how we
might write a prem together.
- Okay, okay.
I'm looking forward to it.
- But I think, you know,
that's a good, important message
to other materials
programs of how they can start
to develop a relationship with an HBCU.
But I think it has to be
predicated on mutual respect.
You know, we can't just write it and say,
"Hey, will you put your name on this?"
You know, we have to sit
down and do it collaboratively
to say, "What can we do
that'll be really unique
for both of our institutions?
And what's gonna match with the passions
of the people who are actually involved?"
- Yeah, that is so true.
And also, it'd be a two-way street.
As you bring proposals to me,
I bring proposals to you and
say, "Hey, can you help me,
you know, strengthen this proposal?
Can we work together with this
and see how we can put
together a strong proposal?"
That we may win too, so
it's a two-way street, yeah.
- So I had one last question,
but I think you kind of answered it.
So I was gonna ask, you know,
how should materials programs make sure
we're supporting
African-American students
in guaranteeing their success?
And what does success look like?
I think you answered that.
Success is what the
student wants success to be.
And we need to ask the student,
what do you view as success?
- Now, but you gotta also keep in mind
that sometimes they don't know.
- Yeah, of course.
- So, but it's also good when, you know,
but allowing them to
first engage, you know,
and come to the realization that they
don't quite know yet,
then you can start
feeding them some ideas.
Say, "Hey, have you tried this?
Have you considered this?"
You know, for this
student, it looked like this,
you know, and then, you
know, sometimes, you know,
you ask yourself, "Well,
where do I really wanna be?"
Okay, and you let them know
that you don't have to know right now.
- Okay. - Not always.
That's fine.
- Okay. - Many of us,
I mean, I didn't know I
wanted to be a physicist
until after, really until
after my junior senior year.
Okay, junior senior year undergraduate.
I know I wasn't gonna
be a football player
by my freshman year,
but I didn't really
get the physicist part
until I was about, you know,
in my fourth year as a senior.
I spent five years in my undergrad,
which I tell students, you
know, it's all right, okay?
It's all right.
It's good to have another
year if you can as an undergrad
because it helps strengthen, you know,
broaden your knowledge base, so, yeah.
I was gonna be a dentist
because my dad was a dentist
and I would just take over his practice.
- Wow.
- But then I went to the
exam, the pre-dental exam,
and I saw these people
throwing airplanes at each other,
little paper hair,
and it was just so lame.
I just, I'm like, "Wait a minute.
I can't go to school with these people."
I got up, walked out,
and started looking at
engineering programs.
- Wow, okay, okay.
- So you're right.
You never know.
And it's important to make
sure people keep options open
and explore and get experience.
So I'm our undergraduate advisor.
You know, I tell all
the students, you know,
your summers are, you
should be getting internships.
You're gonna make a lot of money,
but more importantly, you're gonna learn
what it's like in industry.
And you should try some big industries
and some small industries.
And even if you go for a PhD,
where do you think you're gonna work
when you finish your PhD?
You're gonna probably
work in an industry.
And so, you know, we have
all sorts of career fairs
and we have a weekly
lunch where we bring people in
from industry and graduate schools.
And I tell them, "You gotta go to these.
These are really important to go to
because this is giving you information
so when you graduate, and
you don't have to decide
till the very last minute,
but you might apply
to companies to go to.
You might apply to PhD programs.
You might do what you need
to get a one year master's.
And you don't have to decide
which of those you're gonna do
until one month before you graduate.
So keep your options open.
And then won't it be wonderful
if you have to make a hard decision?"
(laughing)
- Which echoes, which to
me, I always echo to them,
there are some problems you like to have.
- That's right.
Yeah, because it's a tough problem
to choose what your path is gonna be,
but that's why I think every student
needs to do research.
They might hate it.
They might think it's
terrible and that's okay.
They learned, you know?
But it might also
completely change their lives.
It changed mine when
I got to do research.
I think you told me a great story
when you went to Bell
Labs to do research.
- Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's how you
open up my eyes quite a bit.
And I always tell my students who,
plus doing research,
especially during the summer,
you get to see all the
stuff that you've learned
in the class, in class,
how it really applies.
I mean, this stuff that
we're teaching you all,
it really has some true, strong,
practical applications.
Okay? - Oh yeah.
- And sometimes they don't
get a chance to really see that.
- Right.
We're not just applying gratuitous
violence to our students.
It's actually useful.
- Well, also, I've
been told by some people
in our physics
department that our application
is progressing to host National Society
of Black Physicists in 2026.
Hoping that comes through,
because it'll be
fantastic to see you come up here
to Michigan and have that whole group.
Because what a great group that is.
I've really enjoyed going to those
meetings and it's great.
- Well, I'd like to tell you, man,
that has been confirmed now.
We will be helping the
University of Michigan in 2026.
- Oh, it has.
- That's awesome.
So I hope everybody
who's listening to this
comes to that meeting.
Because even if you think
you're doing material science,
this is where you're gonna
find amazing physics undergrads.
They have money to bring,
how many undergrads do you typically have?
- Around 350 to 400.
- Yeah, 350 to 400 students,
undergraduate physics
students come to this meeting
and you can buy a booth
and advertise your program.
And it's really, really rewarding.
So I hope, I mean, you don't have to wait
till we have it at Michigan.
You can do it.
Where's it gonna be next year?
- I would encourage
you to come this year.
Well, the next two, three years, we're gonna have to do it next year. Well, the next two, three years,
we're gonna be doing it.
A special one, 2024, 25 and 26,
we'll be doing it in conjunction
with the National Society
of Hispanic Physics too.
So both organizations, we
decided to come together,
work, collaborate on a
conference for three years,
three consecutive years.
And we're looking forward to it.
We're gonna be in Houston in 2024.
It looks like we're
gonna be in San Jose in 2025.
And we are definitely locked in
for the University of Michigan in 2026.
- Fantastic.
Anything else you'd like to mention
that you think is important
for our materials programs
to hear before we close out?
- I think we covered the gamut.
There's one thing I did wanna mention.
You and I had a chance to talk,
I think the pre-talk about some
sensitivity training.
To me, that would be a
great thing for, yes,
for say majority faculty
to get an understanding
of underrepresented
minorities and things like that.
But I believe really
it's good for everyone.
Because what I've been
trying to expose my students to
is that, hey, you gotta
understand the environment
you're going into, right?
It's a combination.
Everybody won't be able to
adjust the whole world to you.
So that's it.
You gotta also learn the culture
of a predominantly white institution.
They focus a lot more on research and
learning new things.
And sometimes we take out
the relational side of things,
but we realize that we have to pull it in
within good reason.
So I do think it's great to have that
sensitivity training
for both.
But primarily, if I'm at a
predominantly white institution,
I do need to have some
sensitive training about HBCU
or about African-Americans.
So I can at least be equipped to be,
I would say on the
positive side of things
instead of the negative side.
- Fantastic.
Well, thank you so much.
And so thank all of you who tuned in
and are listening or watching on YouTube.
I understand that
transcripts are coming to podcasts now.
Apple has announced that
we can put transcripts in
so people can read
this, they can listen to it.
And I think it's great.
So thank you so much, Willie,
and thank all of you for listening
and we'll see you next time.
- Thank you, Steve.
(upbeat music)