WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040 Music. 00:00:05.032 --> 00:00:14.662 To the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke and with me is Pastor Cameron. 00:00:14.662 --> 00:00:19.622 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast where we try to have open, honest, and uncut conversations 00:00:19.622 --> 00:00:28.662 about faith, life, theology, church, ministry, all the things above. Today, we've got an 00:00:28.662 --> 00:00:32.982 and interesting and I don't know, kind of fascinating topic, 00:00:33.317 --> 00:00:38.907 that's dealing with a lot of the stuff that's been going on in kind of, 00:00:39.582 --> 00:00:41.622 I don't know, popular tech culture. 00:00:41.968 --> 00:00:46.433 Right. Right. Cameron, I'm sure you've seen, and probably some of our listeners have not escaped, 00:00:46.742 --> 00:00:51.663 the, all the talk about AI and chat GPT. 00:00:52.662 --> 00:00:59.549 I think so, something like that. So. So yeah, this is something that is a little bit, 00:01:00.082 --> 00:01:04.618 not a little bit, a lot of it out of my wheelhouse. 00:01:05.642 --> 00:01:11.649 Or even my, I'm not gonna say out of my area of interest because it is interesting to me, 00:01:11.865 --> 00:01:15.781 but it's certainly not something that I've considered, 00:01:16.462 --> 00:01:22.722 or something that I've paid attention to, I should say, until I guess just recently, 00:01:22.722 --> 00:01:28.122 where I'm starting to see a lot of the people that maybe I follow on social media 00:01:28.122 --> 00:01:33.326 or that have been influential in my life from a ministry or faith perspective, 00:01:33.542 --> 00:01:40.682 starting to talk about the advent of artificial intelligence as it makes its way, 00:01:41.122 --> 00:01:50.295 or as it like relates to ministry and pastoral ministry or worship ministry or faith in general. 00:01:50.394 --> 00:01:53.833 And so I feel like it's demanding a response. 00:01:59.122 --> 00:02:04.096 Not because I even feel like it's imminent or like necessarily that it's. 00:02:04.402 --> 00:02:09.101 Well, it's new. It's new. No one's like, like you don't, I mean, I bet you, 00:02:09.182 --> 00:02:12.504 there's a handful of people out there right now scrambling, 00:02:12.622 --> 00:02:17.622 to write a theology of AI and get it published, 00:02:17.770 --> 00:02:24.102 because there's not much out there as far as like what we have to consider for like. 00:02:26.016 --> 00:02:30.742 What is the theology of AI? What is like the Bible got to say about it? All of those kind of, 00:02:31.049 --> 00:02:38.790 questions because like it's new, right? Like we don't, we can't pick up Martin Luther or Calvin, 00:02:39.025 --> 00:02:46.582 or like John Wesley. We can barely pick up Michael Frost who's like a contemporary author right now 00:02:46.582 --> 00:02:51.142 who writes a lot about theology and faith and culture and the church. 00:02:52.339 --> 00:02:58.352 And right now in our time, he's got a few blog articles about it, but nothing that's been, 00:02:59.149 --> 00:03:04.829 substantial or has really reflected on or wrestled with some of the difficult questions or issues that, 00:03:05.446 --> 00:03:12.189 come up with AI as it pertains to ministry. I don't know, there may be people, I'm not going 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:16.015 to assume that everyone even knows what we're talking about. Right. Don't know what the... 00:03:16.735 --> 00:03:21.092 Like, yeah, we should talk about like artificial intelligence, AI, right? 00:03:21.182 --> 00:03:28.006 Like is more than just like the thing like I've always been interested in AI because I love sci-fi, right? 00:03:28.339 --> 00:03:39.109 Terminator. The Terminator. Like, you know, like Skynet, How 2000, you know, from Space Odyssey, like all of those movies and things or stuff that I've always watched. 00:03:39.109 --> 00:03:47.509 Watched, but artificial intelligence, computers that can think and formulate and reformulate, 00:03:48.036 --> 00:03:54.149 and have the appearance of making decisions and producing something autonomously, that's. 00:03:55.509 --> 00:04:03.189 New. I would say that AI is not brand spanking new because it's been out, I think it was several 00:04:03.189 --> 00:04:09.449 years ago that like chess, a chess robot, chess AI beat like a human person. 00:04:09.549 --> 00:04:09.829 Right. 00:04:10.866 --> 00:04:14.449 And so, but like we weren't paying attention then, cause we don't care that 00:04:14.449 --> 00:04:17.869 much about chess. No one cares about chess. Um, sorry, chess lovers. Yeah. 00:04:18.185 --> 00:04:27.304 You know, so we've had artificial intelligence to some degree, but I feel like we're reaching a tipping point where AI is starting to insert itself more, 00:04:27.729 --> 00:04:29.609 practically into our day-to-day lives. 00:04:29.609 --> 00:04:34.589 So like within this past year, if you haven't, if you've not heard about these things, 00:04:34.589 --> 00:04:40.375 there's been the advent of AI art generators where you can type in and you can tell, 00:04:40.465 --> 00:04:44.084 you just go up to something that looks like a Google search bar and you type in. 00:04:45.218 --> 00:04:53.536 A painting of a family standing outside of a house that's on fire in the style of Norman Rockwell and, 00:04:54.108 --> 00:04:57.688 It will make that painting for you. 00:04:59.937 --> 00:05:04.448 It looks kind of weird like AI art like is kind of if you've ever looked at any of it, 00:05:05.348 --> 00:05:14.512 struggles with making hands it kind of creepy and a lot of people have been really upset about AI art because it kind of seemingly steals, 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:20.084 stylistic influences from other people's art that's on the internet and things like that. 00:05:20.291 --> 00:05:30.468 Which is kind of where we want to talk about. Right, exactly. And then you've got chat GPT, which is the big one that's made a lot of impact here, 00:05:30.815 --> 00:05:39.828 because I think it reaches a bigger audience. And so like if you've got Canva or chat GPT, 00:05:39.898 --> 00:05:43.508 like all of these, there's a gazillion of these, but you could go in and you could say, 00:05:43.769 --> 00:05:47.308 Write me a short essay about the American Civil War, 00:05:48.868 --> 00:05:58.068 Focusing on its economic impact It would write that for you. Yeah, and and how would it do that? Like it essentially. 00:05:59.685 --> 00:06:08.488 It scrubs the internet Yeah, right scrubs the digital world. Mm-hmm for the voices that have talked about, 00:06:09.525 --> 00:06:19.908 that learns in an instant all the various perspectives that have been communicated and then creates. 00:06:22.470 --> 00:06:27.040 Artificially, but it's almost for me, it's not even like artificial intelligence anymore. It's, 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:33.600 like AI is more like autonomous intelligence. Like it's doing it somewhat autonomously from, 00:06:34.722 --> 00:06:39.200 my perspective or your perspective. It's gaining its own perspective based on the voices, 00:06:40.186 --> 00:06:45.680 that are already out there. And it writes the essay based on what it finds on the internet, 00:06:47.136 --> 00:06:54.320 Which, if you've been on the internet at all lately, does not inspire an incredible. 00:06:54.320 --> 00:06:55.778 Amount of confidence. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.560 In its veracity, accuracy, is that what you're talking about? 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.052 Yeah. Or in its bias. Mm-hmm. 00:07:03.979 --> 00:07:15.000 Oh, yeah. And who or what controls the sources from which AI draws its information? Yeah. 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:22.500 With every digital source, does it rank each digital source at the same level and then 00:07:22.500 --> 00:07:27.736 discerns across the voices what comes into its final product. 00:07:28.681 --> 00:07:40.520 So that's in essence, in as much as I understand it, which is like a sliver, that's essentially what it's doing. 00:07:40.520 --> 00:07:49.405 Scrubs the internet, gathers all the voices, collates it, develop its own autonomous work. 00:07:50.062 --> 00:07:54.640 Yes. Yeah, and we could, I think you bring up an interesting point, 00:07:54.640 --> 00:07:57.320 which I don't know that we'll have a ton of time to talk about, 00:07:57.786 --> 00:08:05.222 but the bias of, I think we sometimes have this idea that technology is sort of a blank slate. 00:08:06.482 --> 00:08:14.368 Or that's moral neutral. It's morally neutral, right? But it does inherit things from us. 00:08:14.612 --> 00:08:22.052 So like probably the most infamous example of this that kind of like points to how our 00:08:22.052 --> 00:08:29.052 creation of technology and technology can then carry on kind of biases was back when 00:08:29.052 --> 00:08:34.092 Xbox, like I think, I don't know if it was Xbox 360 or it was the first Xbox when they 00:08:34.092 --> 00:08:39.992 created the connect, which was like this, like kind of like the Xbox's answer to the, 00:08:40.628 --> 00:08:43.732 Wii. You could stand in front of this camera and you could move around and play with the 00:08:43.732 --> 00:08:50.072 game with like, it would read your face and it would see your hand movements and everything. 00:08:50.072 --> 00:08:55.612 When that product released over a Christmas and it kind of got launched that Christmas 00:08:55.612 --> 00:09:00.512 season, a whole bunch of people bought it. And anyone who bought it, who was African 00:09:00.512 --> 00:09:07.792 American or dark skinned found that that connect could not see or recognize them. 00:09:08.832 --> 00:09:16.032 So the technology in there, the software hadn't been programmed. They'd never had tested it really 00:09:16.032 --> 00:09:21.872 to differentiate different multicultural or multicultural, different skin tones. And so. 00:09:22.920 --> 00:09:30.032 It was like an example of technology having a flaw because of an oversight or an overlook, 00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:33.048 or a bias in the production team. 00:09:33.309 --> 00:09:33.849 Gotcha. 00:09:34.245 --> 00:09:42.472 And so that's a somewhat harmless example, kind of, but it's also, it's an example in that, 00:09:42.472 --> 00:09:46.326 like technology continues to carry forth how we build it. 00:09:46.722 --> 00:09:55.373 Right. So just, that's a, yeah, that's a whole. Right, it's indicative, it's not a new problem. 00:09:55.427 --> 00:09:55.779 No. 00:09:56.232 --> 00:10:04.655 In the sense that it's reproducing what it is experiencing from its designers or production. Right. 00:10:05.312 --> 00:10:12.112 And so it, while it may be artificial, it's kind of not at the same time. 00:10:12.112 --> 00:10:16.832 Right. There is still some, something of us. Something of us is in it. 00:10:16.832 --> 00:10:18.770 Is being carried through with that. Right. Yeah. 00:10:19.992 --> 00:10:35.552 So we thought we would take kind of this, I found a YouTube video and it's we've got this I can't I'll have to look at 00:10:35.552 --> 00:10:42.347 video to remember his name but I remember his channel it's the 10 minute 00:10:41.744 --> 00:10:51.114 Oh, it's the what is it the 10 minute Bible hour? See here Pulling up this video here. It's Matt Whitman. Yes his name. 00:10:52.592 --> 00:10:56.474 Yeah, Matt Whitman on YouTube and so he made this video where he took. 00:10:58.398 --> 00:11:05.034 He wanted to compare and see if you could make a differentiation between sermons that were written with AI, 00:11:05.771 --> 00:11:11.650 versus sermons that a sermon that he wrote and And so he is. Is he a seminary grad? 00:11:12.145 --> 00:11:19.752 I think so. He makes a lot of like Bible study and Bible focused content on his channel. 00:11:19.797 --> 00:11:30.754 And so he's I don't know exactly what his involvement is in ministry, but he essentially he has two or has two different AIs, 00:11:30.754 --> 00:11:37.999 eyes, write two sermons, and then he seeks to write a sermon and then presents those, 00:11:38.413 --> 00:11:42.414 and then kind of challenges you in the video to see if you can differentiate. 00:11:42.414 --> 00:11:46.874 So I've already seen the video, Cameron, you have not watched the video. Correct. 00:11:46.874 --> 00:11:51.274 So we're going to kind of pause here for a second. There'll be a bit of a gap here. 00:11:51.274 --> 00:11:56.814 We're going to not show the whole video in its link here, but we'll link it in our show 00:11:56.814 --> 00:12:00.554 notes and at the bottom in the description of our video. 00:12:00.554 --> 00:12:05.454 So you can watch it yourself if you want to pause, go watch that video and come back, 00:12:05.454 --> 00:12:09.534 or you can just keep listening and then you'll hear our reaction and kind of our description, 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:10.344 of it after we've watched it. 00:12:11.128 --> 00:12:16.014 Right. Yeah. And certainly like even on the original video, I'm just scrolling through the comment section 00:12:16.014 --> 00:12:17.645 is always an interesting place to go. 00:12:17.771 --> 00:12:20.654 Yeah. If you're really bored. Right. 00:12:20.654 --> 00:12:25.603 And these ones, at least the top comments seem to be pretty insightful. 00:12:26.459 --> 00:12:30.974 But yeah, so why don't we, we'll take a minute here and we'll watch this video. 00:12:30.974 --> 00:12:35.074 And if you want to pause and watch the, go watch the video as well. 00:12:35.334 --> 00:12:38.134 Have some context for the conversation that we have after. 00:12:40.025 --> 00:12:44.575 Yeah, all right. Yeah, so we have watched it like and that was my first time watching the video, 00:12:44.904 --> 00:12:52.175 Yeah, I watched it maybe a couple weeks ago and I I we've paused it at the seven minute mark 00:12:52.175 --> 00:12:56.796 Yeah, so he's read all three mini sermons. Yes, 00:12:58.156 --> 00:13:05.366 randomized the order so we don't know which one is which and then then essentially asking, okay, now which one? 00:13:05.715 --> 00:13:08.292 Which one did he write? Which one's the original and which? 00:13:08.435 --> 00:13:10.813 And which ones did the AIs? Right. Right. 00:13:12.135 --> 00:13:16.232 I mean, it seems really clear to me that the third one is his. 00:13:17.395 --> 00:13:27.155 And I could go into the other like, just reflectively, it sounded like, 00:13:27.155 --> 00:13:31.617 or it felt like that the third mini sermon was full of more. 00:13:37.756 --> 00:13:45.408 It had a more imaginative process by which it's told the story, 00:13:46.624 --> 00:13:51.595 and how it came to the places of theological insight. 00:13:54.875 --> 00:14:05.771 And application. It didn't just come right out and say, this is what happened, this is what it means, go and do it. 00:14:06.771 --> 00:14:17.204 It was more, it drew the listener into a more creative process. It told a story. 00:14:18.654 --> 00:14:26.729 Better. It had a hook at the beginning. It referenced the scripture close to the beginning. 00:14:27.144 --> 00:14:34.464 And then it expounded upon its contextual and theological meaning and then brought application 00:14:34.464 --> 00:14:39.424 to the points at the end and then wrapped it all the way back around to the beginning 00:14:39.424 --> 00:14:45.024 of the first main intro, the hook. 00:14:45.024 --> 00:14:50.584 The sermon at the little mini sermon three is the one that I also, when I was watching 00:14:50.584 --> 00:14:54.879 the video for the first time, it's also the one that I said, I think that is his. 00:14:55.104 --> 00:15:02.544 It has more tangential statements that are indirectly applied. 00:15:02.544 --> 00:15:08.464 So I think there's a moment in there where he talks about all of the work that Jesus 00:15:08.464 --> 00:15:10.144 had been doing in his ministry. 00:15:10.144 --> 00:15:12.384 Jesus had been doing this, this, this, this, this. 00:15:12.586 --> 00:15:17.763 Right? I was like, oh, well that is not, like that is not directly in the text, 00:15:18.264 --> 00:15:23.452 and not directly to the point, but it serves the point. It's contextually tangential. Right. 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:32.724 But if you had someone or something that was simply writing a message based on the text itself, 00:15:33.104 --> 00:15:36.929 it's not necessarily self-evident within the text. 00:15:37.264 --> 00:15:45.984 Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna restart the video here and see, you know, if we were right, you know, if we were right or not, 00:15:45.984 --> 00:15:51.800 because you've watched it, but I don't. So I think we were right. I think I've been doing this long enough now. All right. 00:15:53.196 --> 00:15:57.445 Well, so we, we watched the rest of that video by Matt Whitman. 00:15:57.634 --> 00:16:04.624 So I think it bears mentioning just that like, I think he did a fairly decent job of making the video and presenting an 00:16:04.624 --> 00:16:06.132 interesting idea and concept of, 00:16:06.573 --> 00:16:08.624 Yeah, appreciate Yeah, him. 00:16:09.076 --> 00:16:11.884 So, Matt, if you somehow end up watching this. 00:16:12.352 --> 00:16:19.304 Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the good info here to, or the content to talk about. 00:16:19.304 --> 00:16:24.344 I think it brings up a lot of thoughts running through my head is that it was all going on 00:16:24.344 --> 00:16:27.784 and try to write some of them down that we could talk about. 00:16:27.784 --> 00:16:29.664 Some of it's really specific in nature. 00:16:29.880 --> 00:16:32.184 Well, we should probably say, did we guess right? 00:16:32.804 --> 00:16:40.804 We did guess right. We did. Yeah. The third one was the one that he wrote. 00:16:41.644 --> 00:16:47.204 Right. I remember upon watching it, I did, when he read the first sermon, 00:16:47.204 --> 00:16:49.784 I was like, oh, that could be, it could be him. 00:16:50.564 --> 00:16:57.044 The second one, I was like, no, that was definitely AI. Heard the third one and I was like, 00:16:57.044 --> 00:16:58.552 yeah, that's the one he wrote. Yeah. 00:17:00.364 --> 00:17:05.322 It was, I don't know if it was just because, I don't know if it was. 00:17:06.906 --> 00:17:08.851 It was really clear to me. Yeah. 00:17:09.904 --> 00:17:22.996 Reading or hearing all three, which one was after all three or like even as the process, even as he read the first one, you were just like, as no way as he started like reading the second one, because I've never heard him preach like that. 00:17:22.996 --> 00:17:29.796 I've never watched it. So I didn't have any like any comparative analysis as to previous work that he had done. 00:17:29.796 --> 00:17:35.776 But once he started reading the second one, it had the same opening spirit. 00:17:35.974 --> 00:17:45.716 Interesting. It had the same spirit to it, which was not one of inspiration, 00:17:46.084 --> 00:17:50.756 or not one of like you could. 00:17:51.206 --> 00:17:52.197 There was no out. 00:17:53.036 --> 00:17:55.716 Maybe we can flesh out these things even a little bit. 00:17:56.716 --> 00:17:58.975 There was no heart to it. Yeah. 00:18:00.479 --> 00:18:04.170 It was. It was as if. 00:18:05.556 --> 00:18:11.526 You were reading an informational pamphlet about the scripture. Yeah. 00:18:12.614 --> 00:18:17.846 The, I guess this is maybe the way I would describe the two AI sermons is they 00:18:17.846 --> 00:18:21.726 felt like throw away. 00:18:22.669 --> 00:18:28.314 Not like, like, I think the general points that they make are generally fine. Yeah. 00:18:29.046 --> 00:18:37.726 I'd like, like, yeah. So, but I don't mean throw away as in that, but they felt generically and they felt so 00:18:37.726 --> 00:18:42.816 generic as to feel like kind of the type of religious statements that are said at like, 00:18:43.104 --> 00:18:51.046 political or social rallies and like gatherings where there's kind of a general sense of wanting 00:18:51.046 --> 00:18:56.446 to not wanting to not dive deep into the Bible. 00:18:56.446 --> 00:18:57.994 Very vanilla. Very vanilla. 00:18:58.446 --> 00:19:07.789 Exactly. vanilla. I would maybe need to re-listen to them and I would probably have to be really nitpicky, 00:19:08.185 --> 00:19:13.446 about the two, but there wasn't anything, there was nothing that I heard that immediately struck 00:19:13.446 --> 00:19:23.446 me as like, oh, that's like a really incorrect way of reading that text or an improper application 00:19:23.446 --> 00:19:27.846 or theological principle that you're like, no, it was pretty like, okay, like you. 00:19:29.340 --> 00:19:37.046 Yeah. I mean, I don't say this majority, pejoratively, but like, okay, you're a freshman at Bible college and you're just learning to, 00:19:37.181 --> 00:19:46.006 preach. Yep. Like it was simple. Yeah. Not, not anything special or inspiring, 00:19:46.006 --> 00:19:51.594 but not anything that was like, oh my gosh, like don't ever approach a pulpit again. 00:19:52.215 --> 00:19:57.926 Yeah, kind of declarative. Like it didn't do anything to move us from point A to point B. 00:19:57.926 --> 00:20:01.086 It simply just said, this is the text. Here's the pamphlet of the text. 00:20:01.086 --> 00:20:03.027 This is the idea. Yes. Yeah. 00:20:03.926 --> 00:20:07.933 And so I think like we could get. 00:20:09.976 --> 00:20:14.706 There's lots of lots of things that we could do with this. Oh, gosh. Yeah. 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:19.986 I guess the question that I would want to pose as the. 00:20:22.306 --> 00:20:30.146 Primary question. Well, I don't know. It we could talk about the whether or not AI should be used 00:20:30.146 --> 00:20:41.106 in this way. Yeah. And, or we could use it as an opportunity to talk about what is preaching. 00:20:42.817 --> 00:20:48.506 Yeah. Mm hmm. Like, cause if the point here was to have three sermons written, see which 00:20:48.506 --> 00:20:54.843 one is the best. Right. Or not even the best, but like, see if you could tell the difference. 00:20:55.106 --> 00:21:05.052 Makes me, it begs the question, what is the purpose? What is the point? What is the, both, 00:21:05.826 --> 00:21:22.346 the content and the spirit of the act of, and many people will say the art of, or maybe even 00:21:22.346 --> 00:21:29.706 going a little bit more deep, the gifting of preacher or preaching. 00:21:31.015 --> 00:21:40.505 Oh, how like, how would you begin to like, how would you begin to pull, pull that apart? Yeah. 00:21:40.647 --> 00:21:45.022 Well, like there's an interesting, you know, it would be interesting, even more interesting, 00:21:45.364 --> 00:21:47.417 if we hadn't been able to tell. 00:21:48.465 --> 00:21:53.865 If we'd watched the video and we were just like, absolutely flabbergasted, we like could 00:21:53.865 --> 00:21:57.733 not tell the difference between the three. 00:21:58.345 --> 00:22:02.745 Because I think that forces us to come directly to the question. 00:22:02.745 --> 00:22:09.968 So we could say, oh, well, it's close, but not quite. 00:22:11.305 --> 00:22:21.553 Is there a fundamental difference? Let's say in a handful of years, AI progresses, which arguably it might and will. 00:22:22.665 --> 00:22:28.365 And it gets to a point where it's indistinguishable. Well, that was one of the questions I had. 00:22:28.365 --> 00:22:34.805 It's like, OK, it's easy to tell the difference now. But it would be really interesting if in a year from now, 00:22:34.945 --> 00:22:41.349 Matt went back and asked ChatGPT the same question. 00:22:41.545 --> 00:22:51.545 Because the method that AI uses to create the content necessitates that it's ever evolving and ever learning. 00:22:51.545 --> 00:23:00.488 More content it consumes, the more it's able to replicate genuine human intelligence. 00:23:00.578 --> 00:23:09.545 Right. And so that would force the question of, because like right now we could say, we could kind of, ah, you can kind of tell things like that. 00:23:09.545 --> 00:23:19.545 But if there was no functional difference, no aesthetic difference between them, what does it, does it, is there something different that's happening 00:23:19.545 --> 00:23:26.185 happening when a sermon is delivered that was written entirely by AI or even partially by AI, 00:23:26.946 --> 00:23:33.865 versus a sermon written by a pastor who like studied the word and was in prayer when he did it. 00:23:35.867 --> 00:23:42.357 I would say absolutely. Yeah, I would too. But why? Right? Maybe we need to clarify that. 00:23:43.384 --> 00:23:48.713 Because I think and then from there, I think we can trickle down into some of these like, 00:23:48.902 --> 00:23:55.957 the applications of that. Yeah. So I would say, I would say there's a few things and these are not 00:23:55.957 --> 00:23:58.220 not in order of importance. 00:23:58.357 --> 00:24:03.357 Like as a man who like generally has written a sermon a week. 00:24:06.477 --> 00:24:08.770 For the last 19 years. 00:24:11.717 --> 00:24:15.873 Like every preacher generally has their own process. Yep. 00:24:17.377 --> 00:24:23.588 And their own voice. And their own voice. Like you can, if you and I wrote sermons on the same topic. 00:24:23.717 --> 00:24:26.784 People would be able to probably judge which one. 00:24:26.877 --> 00:24:29.170 Probably, if they had a familiarity with us. 00:24:30.597 --> 00:24:39.126 So the ways in which a sermon is created or the factors that go into the writing of a sermon, 00:24:40.197 --> 00:24:42.077 there's a few of them, or the few questions that I have. 00:24:42.077 --> 00:24:54.537 And like I said, these are not in order of importance priority. But, um, like what I, what I first heard, we mentioned this already. 00:24:54.537 --> 00:25:00.597 What I first heard in the AI sermons was what appeared to me to be like a, 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:10.197 informational, an informational approach to the exposition of a text. 00:25:10.688 --> 00:25:16.557 Yeah. And when I say exposition of a text, what I'm meaning is like, they're, they're proclaiming, 00:25:17.377 --> 00:25:23.030 explaining, speaking about and towards a specific biblical text. Yep. 00:25:23.687 --> 00:25:25.155 All right. and. 00:25:28.287 --> 00:25:46.057 So when you came to that text, it felt really clear that there was no insight towards the text or with the text that was deeper than you would get from, like I said, an informational pamphlet. Right. 00:25:46.265 --> 00:25:52.377 What is what appears on the surface of the water? 00:25:52.837 --> 00:25:52.396 Yes. 00:25:52.897 --> 00:25:56.857 Like if preaching is a deep pool, right? 00:25:57.590 --> 00:26:04.537 It hit what would be on the surface of the water, but did not dive into anything that was there. 00:26:04.738 --> 00:26:20.337 And so the question there that comes out for me is what is the nature of information gathering, 00:26:21.212 --> 00:26:30.617 that happens in the art or the gift of preaching like when you and I would preach. 00:26:30.617 --> 00:26:31.817 Right. Right. 00:26:32.069 --> 00:26:38.017 Because there certainly is an aspect of it where there's information that must be or that should 00:26:38.017 --> 00:26:40.090 be communicated. Right. Yeah. Right. 00:26:41.287 --> 00:26:46.457 Well, so like, for example, like maybe the highlight this is if you were and I were 00:26:46.457 --> 00:26:52.504 assigned the same passage. We were just given a passage and we would say, write a sermon on it. 00:26:53.692 --> 00:26:58.931 Particularly if that passage is, let's say, say it's a chapter out of a gospel, right? 00:27:00.857 --> 00:27:10.937 Your main point of the sermon and applications would likely deviate from my, they would not align 00:27:10.937 --> 00:27:18.137 necessarily. We might find similarities in our sermons, right? But we would find that they're 00:27:18.137 --> 00:27:22.777 probably different and the reason being is because we would. 00:27:24.435 --> 00:27:35.688 Like we would be being we would be highlighting different portions of the text we bring to the text our own experience that's it's a that's an imp. 00:27:36.309 --> 00:27:42.376 That's not something that you can generally avoid it i don't think that something that as preachers god is. 00:27:42.988 --> 00:27:52.738 Wanting us to stay away now doesn't want us to be blank slate bring our experiences we bring our context we bring our approach or our background. 00:27:52.909 --> 00:27:58.805 We even bring our biases to a text. And so similar to the way that why we have four different, 00:27:59.552 --> 00:28:05.445 tellings of the story of the life of Jesus and the Gospels, we would have two different approaches, 00:28:06.439 --> 00:28:10.565 that maybe followed a similar route, but not weren't necessarily. 00:28:10.565 --> 00:28:15.525 Right. You might choose to highlight a particular verse and I might choose to highlight a different 00:28:15.525 --> 00:28:22.310 one and we're making a discernment process in that we're deciding which of these past, 00:28:22.373 --> 00:28:27.925 verses inside of this passage excuse me we feel like is most important to highlight. 00:28:29.377 --> 00:28:35.205 And then if we were to even go a little bit different like if we're if you're preaching to, 00:28:36.561 --> 00:28:41.980 like say a youth group and I'm preaching at like a men's retreat and it's the same passage it's, 00:28:42.493 --> 00:28:47.225 It's going to be different how we preach it because the congregation or the 00:28:47.225 --> 00:28:49.965 audience that we're preaching to is different. 00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:54.349 Well, that was another one of my points. So yeah, is that like, 00:28:55.520 --> 00:28:58.562 you know, if there's the, there's the informational approach, 00:28:59.391 --> 00:29:02.874 which is what I feel like AI did, they grabbed the information. 00:29:03.685 --> 00:29:07.700 They maybe reformulated it somewhat creatively, but it wasn't, 00:29:08.393 --> 00:29:12.138 There was no abstraction, there was no nuance, there was no storytelling. 00:29:12.965 --> 00:29:16.684 It was just a, here it is. you know, vanilla for you. 00:29:18.025 --> 00:29:22.935 But you're exactly right. Is that when you would go to as a preacher when we would go to. 00:29:24.750 --> 00:29:27.175 Preach something or prepare to preach something, 00:29:28.585 --> 00:29:39.215 It would be with a particular audience in mind very rarely very rarely Would the preaching with the preparation? 00:29:40.275 --> 00:29:48.570 Necessitate a General recipient. Yes where it was like, I don't know who's going to hear this. 00:29:48.876 --> 00:29:50.605 It doesn't really matter. 00:29:50.915 --> 00:29:57.419 Cause it doesn't change what I'm going to say. We call it, we call it the ability to read the room. 00:29:58.555 --> 00:30:05.620 Can you read the room that you're in? Because you might, you might prepare and preach a sermon, 00:30:06.215 --> 00:30:15.271 that is, that is completely genuine to the text, very well done, good orthodox theology, 00:30:15.919 --> 00:30:20.915 but that sits on the high scale of like academic imbalance. 00:30:22.490 --> 00:30:27.175 Yeah. And that may be appropriate for a seminary chapel. Yeah. 00:30:27.175 --> 00:30:30.495 A college chapel, you know, something like that. 00:30:32.321 --> 00:30:37.055 But then you might be, like you said, you might be preparing to teach it 00:30:37.055 --> 00:30:39.883 to your sixth grade Sunday school class. 00:30:40.115 --> 00:30:50.155 And being able to read the room, know who you're preaching to is incredibly important. 00:30:50.155 --> 00:30:55.195 I think especially in the life of a pastor who is generally charged with. 00:30:56.699 --> 00:31:01.349 Shepherding the souls of individual people. Yes. 00:31:01.349 --> 00:31:07.754 Like I can bring a guest pastor in here and have them go up on stage, 00:31:07.970 --> 00:31:13.109 stand in the same place that I stand, use the same pulpit that I preach from, 00:31:13.245 --> 00:31:15.640 and have them preach a sermon. 00:31:16.837 --> 00:31:34.149 But there is no way that they would have their finger on the barometer of the room like I would have because the same people I'm in relationship with, I'm toiling in 00:31:34.149 --> 00:31:41.509 the spirit for their shepherding and their salvation and their discipleship and their growth. 00:31:42.674 --> 00:31:52.469 And when I approach the word in order to prepare to preach it, I have them in mind. 00:31:53.422 --> 00:31:59.829 Yeah. Well, it's like, really, I think this was maybe three, three weeks ago, four weeks ago. 00:31:59.985 --> 00:32:04.414 I think we were at the beginning of a service and I think we both of you and I were picking up on the, 00:32:04.709 --> 00:32:09.349 same sense that there was a lot of people who were going through some heavy stuff in the congregation. 00:32:10.212 --> 00:32:16.869 And we totally sidelined everything that we had kind of planned. You totally paused on starting 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:22.309 your sermon, had a whole little sermon at the beginning, and that was all pastorally motivated. 00:32:24.228 --> 00:32:31.109 And just because I know how you preach, I know that you are often up there as you're preaching, 00:32:31.790 --> 00:32:36.229 making editorial decisions on what you're going to say, how you're going to say it. 00:32:36.381 --> 00:32:42.549 Because you're aware of who's in the room, what's going on in their lives, you're aware of how 00:32:42.549 --> 00:32:46.455 how people are responding, right? Like if you hit a point and you're like, 00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:49.237 and that felt like in your spirit. 00:32:50.506 --> 00:32:59.130 Like the Spirit of God testified to my spirit, like don't move from this point, stay here. Go deeper. 00:32:59.373 --> 00:33:07.156 Yes. Which is the kind of semi-third question that I have here. 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:13.236 I'm not saying this in a snarky manner at all. 00:33:15.820 --> 00:33:27.716 I don't think that the AI preacher stopped to pray that the Spirit of God would reveal 00:33:27.716 --> 00:33:38.356 the truth of God's Word into his heart so that he then could become a vessel for that truth to be 00:33:38.356 --> 00:33:43.356 proclaimed over the people, which is if you were to give me, 00:33:44.637 --> 00:33:49.636 or if you were to give me the task of stating a theology. 00:33:52.081 --> 00:33:55.696 Of preaching or a purpose of preaching in the preacher. 00:33:58.036 --> 00:34:05.916 I don't know that I could create a better one, which would be that I go before the spirit of God 00:34:05.916 --> 00:34:13.796 the Spirit of God, to ask the Spirit of God to reveal the truth and wisdom of God's Word 00:34:13.796 --> 00:34:19.133 and in particular, this particular passage or this particular text or idea or whatever, 00:34:19.756 --> 00:34:26.716 to testify and reveal that truth to my heart. And it just so happens, or not just so happens, 00:34:26.716 --> 00:34:31.716 Like I've done the academic, educational, experiential work. 00:34:34.563 --> 00:34:42.876 To have some context built into that, like some wisdom around some of those passages as well, 00:34:43.844 --> 00:34:54.116 so that I then can proclaim the truth of God's word revealed to me by the Spirit of God to the people of God. 00:34:54.665 --> 00:35:02.996 It's not a derivation of Cameron's wisdom or opinions or even my own heart. 00:35:04.414 --> 00:35:18.716 Yeah. And that is a constant battle and struggle. Any pastor worth his salt should be committed to explaining and preaching God's Word and Truth, 00:35:19.331 --> 00:35:20.997 not their opinion or preference. 00:35:21.708 --> 00:35:23.788 Right. Which is... 00:35:26.695 --> 00:35:31.545 Is that like a whole bag of worms right there? Triggering. 00:35:31.545 --> 00:35:37.545 A little triggered on that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:35:37.545 --> 00:35:49.545 Absolutely. There's no secret that there are pastors, preachers who have particular drums that they 00:35:49.545 --> 00:36:01.105 want to personally beat and that their congregations are unwitting listeners to them abdicating and, 00:36:01.219 --> 00:36:17.108 abandoning the spirit-led role of preacher. And they will answer for that. They will. But, 00:36:17.785 --> 00:36:22.527 But it is a constant check, check, check, check, check. 00:36:23.705 --> 00:36:29.774 And it becomes this interplay of like hearing from the spirit and discerning sometimes even in real time. 00:36:35.345 --> 00:36:40.073 What is coming? Is this me? Yep. Is this the spirit? 00:36:40.622 --> 00:36:52.645 And that's not always clearly definable for people, especially when what the Spirit desires to 00:36:52.645 --> 00:36:58.925 communicate through the proclamation of His Word may be difficult for people who are sitting 00:36:58.925 --> 00:37:07.665 underneath it to hear. Because it's very easy to harden our heart and rebel to the proclamation 00:37:07.665 --> 00:37:10.221 of the word that brings conviction into our hearts, 00:37:10.798 --> 00:37:15.380 and we automatically place the blame on the preacher for saying the thing. 00:37:17.009 --> 00:37:25.939 Whereas, like any preacher worth assault, being a conduit of God's spirit and proclaimed 00:37:25.939 --> 00:37:31.520 truth, right, would see that or know and believe that. 00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:36.526 Yeah. So, you know, this brings like an interesting thought to my head is that not everybody like, 00:37:37.279 --> 00:37:47.199 Like you and I might not conceive of preaching as a actively intimate and dynamically Holy 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:51.641 Spirit led piece of church or part of church or act. 00:37:52.550 --> 00:37:57.999 I think like I'm sitting here and I'm thinking as you're talking, I'm like, you know, I think 00:37:57.999 --> 00:38:02.719 I don't want to say 100% of the time because I don't know if we do 100% of the time, but 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:10.159 I'd say almost all of the time when we are praying for each other prior to the service 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:18.079 or in service when one of us is bringing the other up to pray, I think we almost always, 00:38:18.134 --> 00:38:21.474 are praying for the Holy Spirit to do something. 00:38:21.779 --> 00:38:27.559 Not praying for the Holy Spirit to be doing something in the listeners, praying for the 00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:31.440 Holy Spirit to be doing something in the preacher. 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:32.879 I think almost always. 00:38:33.249 --> 00:38:40.199 Um, and that might be something that is blatantly obvious to our presupposition 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:41.979 of understanding what preaching is. 00:38:41.979 --> 00:38:51.599 Preaching is not me trying to be winsome or, um, preaching is not a, like a. 00:38:53.279 --> 00:39:00.265 Pastor and Holy Bible endeavor. It's a pastor, Holy Bible and Holy spirit endeavor. 00:39:00.436 --> 00:39:06.879 And ultimately, without the spirit, falls flat. I don't know if that's like a... 00:39:07.575 --> 00:39:12.599 I don't know. I guess I'm kind of just wondering out loud if that's blatantly obvious to other people 00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:16.839 as it is maybe to even our own understanding of what preaching is. 00:39:16.982 --> 00:39:22.330 I don't think that it is. No, I don't think that it's blatantly obvious because you will... 00:39:24.359 --> 00:39:39.779 I think for me it begs the question on how we can as people have preferences for who 00:39:39.779 --> 00:39:42.071 we like to listen to preaching. 00:39:45.933 --> 00:39:54.843 Because we do we do elevate yes preachers We we do make comments like, 00:39:56.205 --> 00:40:01.763 they They're the best preacher in America, right? Yeah, like if we if we were to ask, 00:40:02.831 --> 00:40:06.504 Who's the best preacher in America you and I could probably come up with a, 00:40:07.566 --> 00:40:12.841 shortlist of five that if we were to just randomly pull people, 00:40:12.943 --> 00:40:17.658 they would say at least one of those five, depending on which kind of bent they had. 00:40:17.856 --> 00:40:23.698 Or if you attend a church where there's a teaching team and that teaching team, 00:40:25.083 --> 00:40:27.821 they publish who's preaching what sermon. 00:40:28.423 --> 00:40:36.148 And then you can track attendance based on who's preaching. 00:40:36.343 --> 00:40:46.383 It shows, I think, that there is some preference for personality within preaching. 00:40:46.623 --> 00:40:53.351 Now you could take that many different ways and you could say, well, it just goes to show, 00:40:53.928 --> 00:40:56.871 that some people have more of a gift. 00:40:58.861 --> 00:41:05.090 And I'm not going to argue that there are or aren't people who are extraordinarily gifted, 00:41:05.153 --> 00:41:20.871 at the art of preaching. But I will argue against the idea that it's only the charismatic 00:41:20.871 --> 00:41:29.991 storytellers of scripture that channel the authentic spirit of God in the proclamation 00:41:29.991 --> 00:41:40.391 of the preaching if it's done in a faithful manner. And so it's tricky. It's tricky because as. 00:41:42.471 --> 00:41:46.681 Do I want people to want to hear my preaching? Duh. 00:41:48.871 --> 00:41:55.031 Right, we want to do a good job. I want to do a good job. I want to be known as an excellent preacher. 00:41:57.205 --> 00:42:02.151 I also do not want to be known as an excellent preacher. 00:42:04.605 --> 00:42:12.551 Right. I want people to experience the life-changing power of the gospel. 00:42:14.984 --> 00:42:20.051 As it's proclaimed in their lives, and as they believe it by faith and repent of their 00:42:20.051 --> 00:42:25.157 sin and trust and follow Jesus with their lives, that's what I want. 00:42:25.391 --> 00:42:31.188 Now, faith comes by hearing the word of God. 00:42:31.728 --> 00:42:32.970 Yep. Right? 00:42:33.835 --> 00:42:37.715 So, how can they believe if they have not heard? So they must hear. 00:42:38.431 --> 00:42:43.191 Do I consistently elevate the art and the act of preaching and the Spirit of God 00:42:43.191 --> 00:42:50.030 within the preaching while simultaneously taking a spirit or posture of. 00:42:51.821 --> 00:42:58.551 Abject humility as the one bringing it is a dynamic that we must always wrestle with. 00:42:59.527 --> 00:43:06.791 And I think almost like, not almost, we must self-impose a posture of humility, 00:43:08.061 --> 00:43:22.591 because people will naturally elevate the preferential style of a pastor to the detriment of the proclamation of the truth. 00:43:23.351 --> 00:43:23.734 Yes. 00:43:25.351 --> 00:43:34.852 So I don't know how to do that in a non like self-flagellation way where you get up on a Sunday morning and you're like, 00:43:35.351 --> 00:43:38.489 I'm an idiot. I have nothing to offer. 00:43:38.791 --> 00:43:43.323 I am not smart at all. Which is not true. Right. Right. 00:43:43.431 --> 00:43:49.166 Like you and I both study, We work hard on our sermons. 00:43:49.251 --> 00:43:56.011 It's interesting because the act of preaching a sermon is it reflects the nature of the Bible, 00:43:56.011 --> 00:44:01.171 of being both a book written by God and a book written by people. 00:44:01.171 --> 00:44:09.034 It's kind of got this, like, you cannot extract from the sermon the preacher. 00:44:09.511 --> 00:44:13.616 But if you only have a preacher and you don't have the Spirit of God, you don't have a sermon. 00:44:14.171 --> 00:44:24.051 Which is AI. Which is AI. Exactly. It kind of brings us back to that. I will say like, you and I, like, we've thought, 00:44:24.051 --> 00:44:30.451 we've listened to a lot of sermons, like a heck of a lot, and we've thought about sermons, 00:44:30.451 --> 00:44:34.691 not just in like a passive way, but in like a very critical way. 00:44:36.392 --> 00:44:45.122 Like the technicalities of how you say a thing, the order you say a thing, how you stand when you say a thing, the hand gestures. 00:44:45.122 --> 00:44:49.742 Like I, like we, I could talk someone's ear off about like, 00:44:50.165 --> 00:44:54.522 We have dissected absolutely every angle of preaching that you can possibly dissect. 00:44:54.522 --> 00:44:58.962 Yes. Like it, like, and it's actually like, you know, just as a personal note, 00:44:58.962 --> 00:45:05.682 like it made it for season really made it hard for me to listen to sermons because all I could see, 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.082 Was all of the technical things going into it. I was like, oh, 00:45:10.303 --> 00:45:19.202 They shouldn't have said it that way or they should not have done that They should have done this instead. And so I bring that up to simply to say is that. 00:45:20.802 --> 00:45:27.882 Probably your favorite preacher like we could probably critique like oh, yeah, I can think I can think of one, 00:45:28.962 --> 00:45:33.160 particular like well-known one of the top preachers in the United States who, 00:45:33.382 --> 00:45:41.658 who is actually pretty bad with filler words and is really bad at writing introductions. 00:45:41.902 --> 00:45:47.420 They're usually clunky and they're, they usually meander and kind of lose people's interest. 00:45:48.518 --> 00:45:53.142 But people like I've been in from, from his sermon, we could probably fight over who's 00:45:53.142 --> 00:45:57.422 the better preacher, who like the best preakers in America. We probably could, we could probably, 00:45:57.422 --> 00:46:01.958 you know, but like, like he's a great preacher because in a lot of people benefit from his, 00:46:02.182 --> 00:46:06.171 I've benefited from his preaching from tangentially and all of that but. 00:46:07.862 --> 00:46:19.502 Technically like the technicalities of how he sometimes preaches I'm like that is a really bad introduction to the sermon or he is using a whole lot of filler words right now, 00:46:19.702 --> 00:46:21.502 like which is interesting because, 00:46:22.222 --> 00:46:27.862 Who has developed the standards of technicality for? 00:46:29.343 --> 00:46:29.856 Or preaching. 00:46:32.017 --> 00:46:39.627 We have, humanity has, right? Fallen, sinful, you know, preaching is our idea, 00:46:40.027 --> 00:46:44.787 not God's type of thing. Like, and we'll create, we take class. 00:46:45.124 --> 00:46:47.924 There's, you can get a doctorate in preaching. I know. 00:46:48.680 --> 00:46:53.467 You know, it sounds fun. I know, I kind of attempted to do one. 00:46:53.467 --> 00:46:57.133 Me too, like it sounds fun, but there is, yeah, 00:46:57.347 --> 00:47:12.007 you can dissect it down to the point where it becomes now a scientific exercise rather than a spirit inspired demonstration 00:47:12.007 --> 00:47:12.860 of your gift. 00:47:13.499 --> 00:47:18.647 Now, that is not to say, which everything is nuanced, right? 00:47:18.647 --> 00:47:20.607 It's not black or white. 00:47:20.607 --> 00:47:29.207 This is kind of like a, it can become a great conversation because I want to get better 00:47:29.207 --> 00:47:30.586 as a technical preacher. 00:47:30.801 --> 00:47:42.847 Yeah. For example, I am usually an outline style preacher that hand writes my sermon notes because I can follow them more easily. 00:47:44.332 --> 00:47:56.022 Recently, I've become more aware of my like, my like, my ums, and my uhs in preaching and have 00:47:56.022 --> 00:48:05.622 wondered how a different approach to the final copy of my sermon would produce either a better 00:48:05.622 --> 00:48:13.582 or worse or more clunky or more fluid or more clear proclamation. And so this past Sunday, 00:48:13.582 --> 00:48:19.702 I did something that I've not done probably since the first couple years of ministry, 00:48:19.990 --> 00:48:24.622 which is I completely manuscripted my sermon and I typed it out. 00:48:25.635 --> 00:48:29.262 Which is what I normally do. That's my preferred method of prep. 00:48:30.640 --> 00:48:37.342 And I used the manuscript, not even an outline of my manuscript. I used the manuscript itself, 00:48:37.652 --> 00:48:46.542 to preach from. Now, I have not gone back to listen to that sermon in comparison to 00:48:46.542 --> 00:48:55.342 a sermon that I do in my normal style, but early reports coming in are that it was more 00:48:55.342 --> 00:49:05.422 clear. It felt more focused and it was less tangential, but it was still you. It was still 00:49:05.422 --> 00:49:19.262 like in your voice. So there's the necessity, I think, as men who want to do an excellent job 00:49:19.262 --> 00:49:30.302 at the extraordinarily heavy task that the Lord has given to us to do it as best as possible. 00:49:30.302 --> 00:49:34.628 Because the. 00:49:36.635 --> 00:49:46.085 It's often thrown around that, oh, God is going to hold me accountable for every, 00:49:47.445 --> 00:50:00.245 word that I say. Everyone says that. That's not abundantly clear in Scripture, but what is abundantly 00:50:00.245 --> 00:50:12.405 clear in scripture that those who presume to teach the word of God to others will sit in a seat of 00:50:12.405 --> 00:50:20.165 judgment over the words that have been said from their mouths that is a lot heavier than others 00:50:20.165 --> 00:50:26.645 have. Well, because in the act of preaching is the assumption that we're saying, thus saith the Lord. 00:50:26.645 --> 00:50:34.484 Lord. When I say this is what God wants you to do, that is a particularly strong statement, 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:40.725 to be making, to be saying this is what I believe God clearly has said in His Word. 00:50:42.127 --> 00:50:49.525 What I believe God is particularly saying to you in this moment based on that, and thus sayeth. 00:50:49.842 --> 00:50:56.245 Death, right? If to do that negligently or flippantly, you know... 00:50:56.431 --> 00:50:58.592 It's an eternally dangerous thing. 00:50:59.816 --> 00:51:08.925 Yeah. It's a weighty task because what we say about God and how we conceive and preach 00:51:08.925 --> 00:51:15.845 Preach informs how people live their lives and their spirituality. 00:51:17.020 --> 00:51:27.408 And if you and I were to get up and to consistently preach that God was nothing more than an angry free. 00:51:29.244 --> 00:51:37.575 Guy in the sky, like just like always like that, like, you know, God is just absolutely, 00:51:38.375 --> 00:51:44.455 furious and angry, right? We kind of talked about some of this like in the last episode about shame. 00:51:44.455 --> 00:51:52.615 If we were to continually preach in a way that induced shame, right? Because that was how we, 00:51:52.750 --> 00:51:58.358 like for one reason or another, that's how we conceived God. That's impacting how people, 00:51:58.691 --> 00:52:05.655 pray to God. That's impacting how they talk about God to others. It's shaping and forming their whole, 00:52:06.397 --> 00:52:13.415 worldview. Now, I don't believe that that's an accurate representation of what the Bible shows. 00:52:13.415 --> 00:52:18.935 Right? We're not just creating God how we want Him to be. Our job is to look at the whole scope 00:52:18.935 --> 00:52:28.975 of the Bible and try and represent that well, right? But like that's a weighty task and like, 00:52:29.155 --> 00:52:39.975 to even to to check ourselves. But I'm curious, what would you say to like even the. 00:52:42.577 --> 00:52:54.027 I guess like, well, like, I guess, do we talk about preachers who don't use their own sermons? 00:52:54.865 --> 00:53:00.177 Like we are exactly in the same wavelength because the last question that I have is, 00:53:00.507 --> 00:53:06.427 are preachers who use these sermons, are they accountable for them? 00:53:06.427 --> 00:53:06.703 Yeah. 00:53:06.973 --> 00:53:12.915 You know, or like, what is the, how should we approach that issue of now? 00:53:18.187 --> 00:53:22.187 Because like this is, I don't know, you know, like this is like a, this is an issue that pops up, 00:53:23.147 --> 00:53:30.587 every, I guess, like every couple years, somebody publicly, someone is big enough 00:53:30.587 --> 00:53:37.707 and well known enough to get publicly called out for preaching other pastors sermons. 00:53:39.227 --> 00:53:46.027 I think that happened maybe a year and a half ago. I can't remember exactly who it was. It was, 00:53:46.667 --> 00:53:52.347 down south. I think it was associated with some denomination. And they had the same. 00:53:54.415 --> 00:53:59.147 Main point, same outline as somebody else's and even used the same illustration. And there was 00:53:59.147 --> 00:54:02.436 There was a whole lot of back and forth over as to whether or not that was justified. 00:54:02.707 --> 00:54:06.947 And then that, you know, brought the conversation back up. But it happens every couple of years. 00:54:06.947 --> 00:54:13.007 Somebody gets found out for not preaching an original sermon, uh, that they are 00:54:13.007 --> 00:54:18.622 present, but they are presenting it, which I think is a very key, key distinction, right? 00:54:18.712 --> 00:54:20.846 Where you show up on Sunday. 00:54:20.981 --> 00:54:26.847 It is assumed that what you are saying is what you wrote or your, or is your actual 00:54:26.847 --> 00:54:33.908 words, but they're maybe reading or copying and copying, pasting from, you know, some, 00:54:34.607 --> 00:54:39.480 famous pastor and they've just downloaded his manuscript and essentially copied it. 00:54:40.876 --> 00:54:46.326 And like that is the current iteration of it. I think the future iteration of that problem will 00:54:46.326 --> 00:54:50.292 probably be pastors showing up with sermons generated by. 00:54:50.580 --> 00:54:54.886 Like, oh, I had a super busy week, lots of pastoral care, lots of meetings, 00:54:55.054 --> 00:54:59.446 didn't have enough time to write my sermon. Hey, chat, GPT, can you write me a sermon really quick 00:54:59.446 --> 00:55:02.391 on this scripture? Because I was too busy to do it myself this week. 00:55:03.319 --> 00:55:16.726 Yeah. Or even like pacing it out, like piecemealing it. it. Like you could say like, write me a couple paragraphs on this and then just inserting it 00:55:16.726 --> 00:55:22.486 into the rest of your sermon. Like I could see pastors doing that. Like, like if someone really 00:55:22.486 --> 00:55:32.046 wanted to kind of like use the shortcut, but kind of not maybe get caught or maybe wanted to, or, 00:55:32.046 --> 00:55:36.646 or maybe there's just attribute more positive intentions. Like they just wanted to supplement 00:55:36.646 --> 00:55:43.166 what they're doing. Yeah, I could see that as a reasonable practice because I don't think it's 00:55:43.166 --> 00:55:49.966 substantively different than what we would do reading commentaries, reading books on issues, 00:55:49.966 --> 00:55:59.366 or on sermons, or on topics, or texts, or something like that. We're developing or filling content, 00:55:59.366 --> 00:56:04.366 not fluff content, but we have an idea, we have direction. 00:56:07.366 --> 00:56:18.246 We need to maybe explore what has been said, how this has been processed through by other men and women 00:56:18.246 --> 00:56:20.630 who are digging into the word of God. 00:56:21.486 --> 00:56:29.092 So yeah, I think that I don't know that there's a humongous difference there. 00:56:32.926 --> 00:56:40.786 You know, for someone to take someone else's sermon, preach it as their own. 00:56:44.414 --> 00:56:53.904 Feels to me to be, I guess the generous term that I would use is disingenuous. I think 00:56:53.904 --> 00:57:01.064 that it does not address some of the questions that we've had about the factors of preaching 00:57:01.064 --> 00:57:05.504 like being able to read the room, asking the Holy Spirit of God to reveal the truth of 00:57:05.504 --> 00:57:11.700 God's word so you can proclaim it over your people. Now does it cease to be the truth, 00:57:11.889 --> 00:57:18.044 of God's word if it was originally proclaimed over a congregation in Atlanta and now is 00:57:18.044 --> 00:57:20.844 being proclaimed over a congregation in Jamestown. 00:57:20.844 --> 00:57:23.988 No, it doesn't cease to be God's word. 00:57:24.284 --> 00:57:26.581 It doesn't even cease to be true. 00:57:27.850 --> 00:57:38.364 I just wonder whether it's responsible to the calling that you've received as a pastor, 00:57:38.572 --> 00:57:45.164 to search the scripture, to search the heart of God, and to prepare something for your people. 00:57:45.323 --> 00:57:51.164 And so would we say something similar or is there any difference? I don't think there is if I just 00:57:51.164 --> 00:57:58.684 generated carte blanche the entire sermon from chat GBT. I would say that's worse. I would say 00:57:58.684 --> 00:58:04.284 it's worse. I could see that. Yeah, I would say it's worse because there's like, now you know 00:58:04.284 --> 00:58:16.804 that there is no petitioning the Spirit for the content even. At least maybe if you were to steal 00:58:16.804 --> 00:58:22.604 someone else's sermon and preach it for yourself, you could operate for your conscience sake under 00:58:22.604 --> 00:58:29.804 the assumption that they did the hard work of praying for the Spirit's revelation and that 00:58:29.804 --> 00:58:32.405 you're just a secondary, 00:58:33.108 --> 00:58:36.141 you're just a secondary conduit for that revelation. 00:58:36.504 --> 00:58:39.724 But when you have some like. 00:58:41.327 --> 00:58:47.079 Software program Scrubbing the internet. Yeah to get you content then. 00:58:51.229 --> 00:58:56.729 That's a that's a big Stinking no. Yeah for me. Yeah. 00:58:58.476 --> 00:59:06.097 Yeah, I think there is something to I guess I want to point something out or like bring it a little bit of something we 00:59:06.097 --> 00:59:11.979 It's not common practice anymore, but in some church traditions and historically, it, 00:59:12.577 --> 00:59:19.417 would not have been out of the ordinary or perceived as wrong or disingenuous for a local 00:59:19.417 --> 00:59:26.266 pastor of a parish or a church congregation to pull out a book of sermons and to read, 00:59:26.752 --> 00:59:32.649 a pre-written sermon that somebody wrote. 00:59:32.857 --> 00:59:39.057 It was always kind of, it was well, there was no pretense as this is the sermon I wrote. 00:59:39.057 --> 00:59:43.757 It was like, I'm going to read a sermon from so-and-so on this book. 00:59:44.306 --> 00:59:48.337 I've ran across that in some. Have you really? I've never experienced that. 00:59:48.337 --> 00:59:50.149 Yeah. Not like it doesn't happen now. 00:59:50.743 --> 00:59:56.737 Okay. But like in some books that I've read, I've ran across like, that was how some sermons 00:59:56.737 --> 01:00:01.337 were delivered in like, it wasn't like a all the time thing, but that was how some sermons 01:00:01.337 --> 01:00:06.897 were delivered is like, here's a book of sermons, just read the sermon that somebody prayerfully, 01:00:08.117 --> 01:00:21.327 crafted and was put into this book. So I mean, it makes me wonder if we should dive down the rabbit hole of like the Book of Common Prayer. 01:00:24.207 --> 01:00:29.597 Or like prayers. Yeah. Oh, I think there's a ton of value there. 01:00:29.831 --> 01:00:37.567 Yeah. Right. So I guess my own thing is to say is that like, I am not so closed off to the idea, 01:00:38.257 --> 01:00:45.887 that somebody could bring a sermon and say like, I didn't write this, but this I think is. 01:00:46.737 --> 01:00:52.767 Pertinent to us now. And I want to just simply deliver this sermon to you. Right. I would be 01:00:52.767 --> 01:00:59.327 much more generous of that. Right. Like, because of the honesty, forthrightness and clarity with 01:00:59.327 --> 01:01:02.507 with what's that's being conducted? Yeah. Right. Versus, 01:01:02.527 --> 01:01:06.416 the sort of what you said, you said the word disingenuousness, 01:01:06.812 --> 01:01:13.887 of just coming up there, not explicitly saying this is what I wrote, but also not clearly explicitly saying, I'm just 01:01:13.887 --> 01:01:21.367 reading somebody else's words, right? Leaving the assumption because anyone who walks into Sunday service is assuming that, 01:01:21.513 --> 01:01:29.127 the pastor wrote what they're saying. In most cases, yeah, yeah, like that wouldn't be the assumption. No. So I think it's 01:01:29.127 --> 01:01:36.483 disingenuous to not preface that. But anyways, so that was just a little small side tangent, 01:01:36.736 --> 01:01:43.217 that I thought was worth maybe, I don't know, just mentioning it. I agree. I agree with that. 01:01:43.883 --> 01:01:50.887 You know, like, and I've, I think we've, I know that I've used, I can't recall at this point, but 01:01:50.887 --> 01:01:58.647 like, I can see myself using snippets of sermons that you find on YouTube to, as conversation 01:01:58.647 --> 01:02:07.488 starters, you post a snippet on your Instagram stories or whatever. Like, oh yeah, that's an. 01:02:08.327 --> 01:02:16.407 Insightful word from the Lord there. We use quotes. Right. Right? So I don't want to, 01:02:16.526 --> 01:02:23.607 completely dismiss that, right? And I'm partial to prayer books and things like that with pre-written 01:02:23.607 --> 01:02:28.229 I am too, and like, jeez, I'm pretty sure that Jesus gave his disciples a canned prayer. 01:02:28.715 --> 01:02:35.487 Or, you know, like you could make that argument that Jesus was like, okay, pray like this. 01:02:37.042 --> 01:02:44.748 So are we to take that as a disingenuous way of praying because Jesus said to pray this way? Right. Right. 01:02:45.007 --> 01:02:50.607 I don't know if I'd go there. No. Yeah. I don't think you can go wrong in saying the Lord's Prayer. 01:02:50.607 --> 01:02:51.007 No. No. 01:02:53.247 --> 01:02:59.887 So I guess that kind of all... Oh no, I feel like that kind of wraps up the topic as it stands a 01:02:59.887 --> 01:03:06.847 a little bit. We've kind of explored some of the practical implications of AI as it comes to kind, 01:03:07.163 --> 01:03:11.487 of particularly preaching in general. Yes. Yeah. I'd be interested to hear, you know, 01:03:11.487 --> 01:03:16.207 if you're watching or you're listening, what your thoughts are. Yeah. You know, if you, 01:03:17.087 --> 01:03:21.327 whatever platform that you're using, if you know, there's a comment function on there, 01:03:22.047 --> 01:03:27.647 I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. If you are listening, why don't you please go over to 01:03:27.647 --> 01:03:32.287 Matt Thornton's YouTube channel. We'll make sure that the link for that particular video is in the 01:03:32.287 --> 01:03:40.127 notes up on the screen so that you can go and thank him for the podcast starter over here. 01:03:44.447 --> 01:03:53.407 As always, we're wanting to do mailbag episodes of this podcast. So, I encourage you to send in your 01:03:53.407 --> 01:03:58.407 your questions and or your topics that have really to do. 01:04:00.027 --> 01:04:00.867 With anything. 01:04:00.867 --> 01:04:04.907 I think we've gotten a few questions in so far, but we wanna have a good bank of those, 01:04:04.907 --> 01:04:08.307 not knowing how long it'll take us to get through each one. 01:04:08.307 --> 01:04:11.627 And we'll create a mailbag episode here sometime in the future. 01:04:11.627 --> 01:04:15.027 But the best way to do that is to text them to us actually. 01:04:15.027 --> 01:04:18.947 So we have a texting line that you can text your questions or topics into. 01:04:18.947 --> 01:04:23.947 And that texting line is 716-201-0507. 01:04:26.645 --> 01:04:33.342 And if you don't see your question up in a mailbag episode in like the very next episode, 01:04:33.414 --> 01:04:36.187 we're kind of banking a lot of those so we can do one big episode. 01:04:37.600 --> 01:04:45.396 So as always, we appreciate you listening and exploring these things with us. 01:04:45.447 --> 01:04:50.847 This is the Uncut Podcast where we don't really, we decided what we were gonna talk 01:04:50.847 --> 01:04:57.504 about today with zero preparation and decided on a topic about two minutes before we turned on the microphones. 01:04:58.089 --> 01:05:02.528 So like this episode wherever you're listening to it. 01:05:03.752 --> 01:05:11.179 Subscribe if you haven't yet, share it with your friends on social media and we will talk to you the next time out. 01:05:13.402 --> 01:05:12.844 Thanks a lot.