Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me, Rob.
Kevin: We are here to talk about another episode of Strange New Worlds, or is it a
leaked documentary from the 23rd Century?
Rob: I believe it's a feature length documentary.
Kevin: Yes, I believe that is what we were promised, and what that turns out to mean
is the shortest episode of the season.
In fact, the shortest episode of the entire series so far
is what we got this week.
Rob: And it didn't feel like that at all.
Kevin: Wow.
Okay.
Some spicy takes already going on here.
Need I ask what you made of What is Starfleet, Rob?
Rob: Look, I will tell you this, I'm very grateful.
I'm incredibly grateful that the answer to the question of what is
Starfleet wasn't carrying on from a discovery trope of talking about stuff
and then repeating: that's Starfleet.
That's Starfleet, something that Michael Burnham did quite
a lot at the end of season one.
But no, I will not talk about what the episode didn't have.
Um, look, I was a little bit to the point of very disappointed in this episode.
It was a bit of a mess.
It was a bit of a disappointment.
It was a bit of a horrifying watch.
Um, a lot of moral questions and a lot of decisions made to be
clever or to be interesting or to have sympathy for people, but
we don't really have it for them.
The stuff with the big space creature is was, was really, really cool.
I liked that
Kevin: Oh good.
So the episode within the episode was good.
It was the framing device that really
Rob: If we had it as a stock standard star trekky type
episode, it would've been great.
But all the, they didn't really use that format of a mockumentary, and I
do that in commas to, to its advantage.
It just was a different way of showing the episode that raised more
questions than answered them and didn't make it interesting at all.
I was really disappointed in this.
Kevin: I will go a step further and say, not only did it not make it
interesting, it actually made it harder to watch, it, less enjoyable to watch.
I wrote, if this is what cinematography looks like in the 23rd century, we
are indeed in a golden age today.
Rob: Well, that's the thing.
Yeah, there's so much type of, so a focus on, they've taken this footage
from, from ship's logs or stuff like that, so a lot of really awkward,
horrible low angle shots, up and up
Kevin: Yeah, super close up, low angle looks to camera.
A lot of the, like the premise of the, the surveillance shots is a lot of those
cameras are behind the screen, or at least the screen itself is recording the image.
And so a lot of cases of like people doing their jobs looking
directly at the camera and it feels like, whoa, you just looked at me.
\Why?
Oh, right.
You were looking at the screen that I'm meant to understand is between us.
Uh, and yeah, it's certainly like.
It has a novelty of getting to see these characters played more up close
than usual, at a different angle than usual, but none of it was flattering
and none of it served anything other than a, a break from the norm.
Rob: Yeah, it was that case of it, it was all style.
And it wasn't a very good style.
It was a very ugly style
Kevin: I really hate that drone cam, like we've seen it earlier in the
series and it was played for comedy, just how annoying and intrusive it was.
And then I did not, it did not occur to me, it should have, that we are gonna
get to see an entire episode filmed through the lens of that camera, and not
only only is it annoying to be filmed by that camera, it's annoying to watch
a film from that camera, because it's swooping, it's getting in people's faces.
I feel like the characters are annoyed at me, the viewer half the time, which is not
what you want from the characters that you
Rob: No, no, no, no, no, no.
Yes it was.
Yeah, it was.
Kevin: And this is why Scotty and Pelia went on holiday that week, obviously.
Rob: that was the smartest move ever for the both of 'em.
Yeah, this was all style and no substance and the style
didn't help with the substance.
It should have been there to elevate it forward.
I mean, there's an episode of the X-Files later in its run
when they were going wacky, when they were like completely wacky.
There's an episode where they joined up with COPS and that's
an in incred that I remember.
I'd never watched the X-Files, but I
Kevin: I loved that.
Rob: I tuned into that one and it was beautifully done.
And they manipulated how they told the story through the use of the, the cops.
Format, which was really good.
But there's another, there's a Doctor Who story, uh, from the Peter Capaldi
era called Sleep No More, which is done in a similar found footage, uh,
format, and it doesn't work at all.
It's one of the weakest Doctor Who stories of the modern era.
Um, and so I was going into this a little bit trepidatious and, and, and my, my
worst fears were realized that was, yeah, do I use the word embarrassing?
Kevin: Yeah, that's strong.
Rob: Well, yeah, especially 'cause I love the show so much.
I've been such an advocate for it, especially,
Kevin: Yeah.
And but I, what I'm hearing from you is that beyond just not enjoying it
yourself, you felt embarrassed that other people will be watching this and judging
Rob: I've never, yeah, I've never thought that.
I'm aware of like there's some hardcore Star Trek fans out there,
bemoaning anything of the new era.
Um, and I've been going into bat for this show and, and, and, and as, as what it
stands for and how it has those elements of Star Trek, despite the glitz and glamor
and modern lens that it's coming through.
Um, but this one, there was a little bit of a moment of me going, oh no, you didn't
just do that in front of my boss at work.
Or like, like, I feel
Kevin: People know I'm a fan of this!
Rob: We talked about this.
All right.
You do not embarrass me.
We are, we are been invited around to the boss's house for, for dinner and drinks.
Kevin: I don't think I was that strong against it.
Uh, but I, I would not rate this highly for sure.
I'm, I'd be curious in drilling into what some of those cringe moments were for
you, but like for me, the two biggest sins of this episode were, were, one,
it was unpleasant to watch, and two, I don't think the story about Beto
Ortegas the filmmaker, makes any sense.
Rob: It really doesn't, especially because, especially because we
haven't sit like this is about,
Kevin: He's been so happy go lucky, like part of the team.
I'm so stoked to be here.
If anything like that's the foundation that his supposed burgeoning relationship
with Uhura is founded on and in this episode we are, I think, asked to
believe that either that was all a front he was putting on, in which case
that character is pretty irredeemable for what he put poor Uhura through, or
they changed, they forgot to tell the writers of the previous episodes that
Ortegas is a Starfleet skeptic because he hasn't asked any skeptical questions.
He has shown no skepticism whatsoever about the missions up until this
point, until the start of this episode where he is suddenly like,
How does it feel to kill people?
Is this a warship?
Like where is that coming
Rob: It came outta nowhere.
Exactly.
There was, and I'm gonna, you know, ring the bell, drop the money into
our, um, frequently stated in our podcast jar, if we had more episodes
Kevin: Mm. They could have built that
Rob: That came outta nowhere.
And especially a, a big part of this was Ortegas being injured or hurt.
That, sadly, we saw that as hopefully being something that would
expand out through this season.
Kevin: I think this is it.
I think this is all we get.
Rob: This is all we get.
We got sort of like
Kevin: We get one speech at the end where, where she's like, I came
to Starfleet 'cause it's a thing I could control when mom was dying
and then I couldn't control it.
And that freaked me out.
Uh, but I'm better now, thanks to my
Rob: Ortega gets PTSD, she causes disruptions on the bridge.
She's put on suspension.
The very next episode, she's pulled outta suspension because they
need her on the bridge to fly.
Then there's nothing dealt with it.
And then there's this lovey-dovey brother, uh, you know, Uhura,
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: no, this isn't happening, type thing.
And then the episode hits, you know, they, they're col
Kevin: all, no comment.
Rob: These are colonizers.
They're taking over.
I'm going, where has, yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: A lot of lines that we had to fill in the blank.
Kevin: You know, I love to bend over backwards to make
Star Trek makes sense, Rob.
And in my, and when I try to do this, I can only get part of the way there.
I can, I can maybe tell a story where there is a narrative back home, um, among
the planets of the Federation, there is anti Starfleet sentiment, that is growing.
And Beto is either funded by those people or he comes with that with that premise.
He knows that premise exists in the minds of his audience.
And so he makes a movie that starts by playing into that to get that
skeptical audience on side and then twist, here's what I learned
when I went looking for that.
Not only was I wrong, but you are wrong to even think it.
You should feel bad about yourself, audience.
But I don't know if that makes sense.
And even if it did, like, we didn't see any of it in the se previous
episodes of this character.
So, yeah, I, I, I dunno.
Rob: And especially, issues about sort of like questioning Starfleet is good and
some, like you've talked about before, one of your favorite moments of, uh, Deep
Space Nine is a scene that we're gonna cut between Garak and Quark, talking
about what the Federation means for
Kevin: It's insidious.
Rob: you know, you get to like it, um, just like root beer.
But then you've got another episodes in Deep Space Nine where Bajor's on
the verge of joining the Federation and Sisko was aware that, through the
prophets and visions and stuff like that, that this isn't meant to happen.
And Bajor is, you know, benefits because of not being a, you know, and is saved
because of not being in Starfleet.
And the questioning of staff fleet is a good thing, but the way it was
handled, it was clumsy not only as a character point of view, but as a, a
writing point of view, so that at the end where they, there was a, a smugness
and a sense of never question us again.
You're going, oh, but no, that's not the message that Starfleet should be, or that
Star Trek should be putting out there.
Those questions should be asked, but the way it was written and
the way it was executed was, uh, just awkward to watch and
Kevin: There were moments I liked.
I did like the episode within the episode about the giant space
creature or the, the space dragon as Ortegas called it on the bridge.
Um, and, and we've chosen that as our topic to explore in other episodes.
I think giant space creatures are great, and this one was a good one.
I think this, the story was of of like this space creature that was
harnessed into a weapon and Starfleet was going along with it for some
reason, that is never fully made clear.
That's all been redacted.
Rob: It's, yes, so there's two races fighting.
Um, and you
Kevin: The ones losing the war were allied with the Klingons during the war, but
for some reason, the Starfleet wants to come to the rescue now, by, by enabling
this transport of what is initially called cargo, then livestock, then a
tool they will use in their rebuilding efforts, and then finally a weapon.
Rob: So yes, the Federation was just under the impression they wanted more
supplies or food or whatever for, you know, because they're being starved
out, there, there's a war going on.
This particular race is being, you know, dominated by this other race.
They showed the, the loss of lives within this war.
And so they're kind of not being peacekeepers, but trying to negotiate it.
And you could draw any modern parallels and that type of
stuff within Star Trek is great.
It happened back in the sixties.
It's happening in the nineties, and it happens now.
Great.
Good.
Love it.
Um, little bit murky with all the, the morality behind it all, but I
guess that's, could be a reference to, you know, parallels today.
But yes, that slow reveal of, oh no, no, this creature is
being called out as a weapon.
Oh, no, no.
This creature is a weapon because it's being manipulated by the
species who controls them.
Oh, this species can communicate and does not like being used as a weapon.
Um, and wants to be, you know, wants to end its misery.
And also wants its children on this planet that's protected, um, to, you
know, not be used or exploited for
Kevin: Yeah, all good stuff.
And, and like every glimpse we got of the episode that actually happened here,
like made me wanna watch that episode more than this episode that we got to
Rob: Yes.
Yes.
And it was a, and shout out to Mothra from the Godzilla universe for cameo this week.
Really good cameo performance.
Mothra, you've shown you range as an actor.
Kevin: It looked amazing coming out of the water, uh, and going up into space.
Rob: That was an amazing shot, and part of me went, how'd I get the footage of that?
And don't worry, don't worry, don't worry.
It looked too good.
Kevin: The sun at the start and the end looked really nice as well.
Like the, the opening, the first moments of this episode really had me leaning in.
The silent, like, slow coasting over the, the detail of that, that sun
that ended up playing a central role in the, the end of this episode.
Those quiet, silent moments that made me feel like this is a documentary.
We're taking this slow, this is.
This is, um, about facts and, and, uh, like it made me feel like we were about
to watch a nature documentary about Starfleet, which would've been amazing.
But, uh, instead it, like, everything that in between those
two shots really bothered me.
Uh, when Beto got pushed off the bridge and it switched to just the,
the security fat camera footage, I was like, oh, that's better.
That's, you know, I, I can, this is a relief.
Rob: Yeah.
Um, the backstory stuff about a bit more detail of Uhura was really nice.
Um, and her, her, her loss of, um, her friend that she found out about that
was like the character was manipulating
Kevin: Elena Cho from the Cayou guy.
Rob: And there's a little bit, I like the, the focus on Ortegas.
We had her, like, she's a bit of a grease monkey.
Tom Paris would be happy.
Um,
Kevin: about that just yet last
Rob: So this is the thing.
I'm, I'm gathering scraps of Ortegas
Kevin: There are things to like here, but they belonged in the
episode that got chopped up and, and framed by an unpleasant and
nonsensical, uh, documentary.
Rob: We should be seeing more of Ortegas doing that grease monkey
stuff throughout the last two seasons, not just now going, oh, okay.
Of course.
Well, she's a, she's a, you know, she flies the ship, so of course she's that.
But you shouldn't be realizing that near the end of season three, you should be
Kevin: This is the strength and the weakness of Strange New Worlds is that
it is almost, it is almost counter to the mission to do a normal episode
of Star Trek on Strange New Worlds.
And what we saw here was glimpses of a great normal episode of Star
Trek, but they went, no, no, no.
This is Strange New Worlds.
We've, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rob: We have to be, we have to be weird, wonderful, or wacky.
That's our, we, we are standalone episodes with a little bit of an
arc and we have to do something big and bold each, so this can be the
crossover episode with Lower Decks.
This is the musical episode.
This is the puppet episode.
This is that episode.
This is the documentary episode.
Yeah.
Kevin: As many of those hit as, as miss, and this was an obvious miss,
Rob: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin: to you and me anyway.
Rob: Yeah, and I think the general consensus has been a little bit the
same as well, which is a real shame coming into, especially after the
powerhouse of last week's episode.
As you were talking about, you've been a bit, a little bit, you know,
disappointed with this season and so this momentum was building up and where
they're going, yeah, let's go with this.
Alright, let's see where we go.
What is Starfleet and, oh, stumbled so.
Kevin: Yep.
Well, uh, what we've got a couple of episodes left this season.
We'll see, uh, we'll see what the Vulcans give us this week, but in the meantime,
we are going to follow that, that rogue space dragon into the sun and see what
other giant space creatures we can find
Rob: excited, very excited to do this.
Let's, as always, we need to find out where we are in the timeline.
So we are
Kevin: I'm back to TNG this week.
Rob: I'm in TNG as well.
I'm doing a season one episode and a season five episode.
Kevin: Well, I know what season one episode you're talking about.
Let's start at Farpoint, where it all begins.
Rob: Nuh!
Kevin: No!
Wow, there's so many giant space creatures, Rob.
I thought for sure you were gonna take us to the big, uh, you know,
Farpoint Station is revealed at the end of the pilot to be one of a pair
of these giant space fairing creatures.
The jellyfish.
Rob: No.
I am going to season one, episode 13, Datalore.
Kevin: Ooh, the crystalline
Rob: The crystalline entity.
With the introduction of Lore and the introduction of the famous GIF
meme everywhere, Shut up Wesley.
Kevin: That is from that one.
Is it?
I, I, that is a, uh, a line completely devoid of context in my mind at
Rob: For, for me, when it actually happened, I literally
gave it a standing ovation.
I stopped, went, it's that episode, and I'm literally there going, oh,
this is this, this is, this is weird Picard, where he is so mean, and there's
moments where he shows joy, but it's really weird why he's showing joy.
Kevin: There's a lot of, if you'll pardon the expression, lore established
in this episode about Data, the Soongs, the origins of, of Data and, and you
know, his family, his brother, in this case, like, I feel like by the
time we get to the movies, half of Data's story is coming from this.
The where he ends up in Picard season three is, it all starts here.
Rob: And especially like in Picard season two, we had, uh, you know,
Noonien Soong in, you know, with, um, Brent Spiner playing him.
So I've seen it all in reverse.
I've seen all this stuff about it, but I never saw the start of it.
I never saw the first appearance of Lore.
Um, this is one that, you know, Roddenberry had,
uh, a big hand in writing.
Well, a big hand as, as much of a big hand as you can have with about seven different
writers that come up on the screen.
Kevin: That's why this is so overstuffed with ideas.
I feel
Rob: It really is.
Kevin: Just the story of finding Data's father is a whole episode, let alone
finding Data's secret brother and facing the entity that destroyed their home.
Uh, like all of that, there's just way too much in this
episode, or way more than it needs
Rob: They go to the planet he's created.
The planet he's created is now dead.
They go to the place where he was found.
He talks about where he was found.
They go down to the laboratory.
They find this other body.
They put it all together.
They find out how the, how you can get the off switch of Data,
which is just in his back.
Um, you have Lore come to life and you find out who was first, who was second.
Then you find out, um, you know, Wesley doesn't, you know, his
observations of what a child is like compared to what Federation is like.
What is more human?
What isn't more human?
Then you find out there was a deceit there.
Then you find out he was in, in league with the crystalline creature and came
back to kill all the colonists, 'cause the colonists were, wanted him to be
turned off because he was too human.
And so Data was the better version created, was less, you know, it was
more appealing for the colonists.
So Lore wanted to have revenge, um, and
Kevin: Especially poignant that plot line in today's modern era of, uh,
of rapidly advancing AI tools that, uh, yeah, will we get the one that's
too human and freaks everyone out, and so we need to back it off a
Rob: Exactly.
There's an amazing moment where they had a conference.
It was like Geordi, Riker and Picard, and they're talking about Data being a life
form, and they're going, oh, we shouldn't talk to him in that particular way.
And Picard goes, well, we talk about all life form in all
different particular types of ways, so let's open it up that way.
And then there's a cutaway to Riker getting so excited by Picard's captaining.
He's there going, yes, great.
I'm going, what is happening
Kevin: Yeah.
Season one TNG was uneven.
They were, they were like, um, yeah, the emotions were a little random at times.
Rob: like Wesley is standing up and going, you need to listen to me.
And they go, Shut up Wesley.
He goes and he stands up and starts talking again, and then
his mom says, shut up Wesley.
And then he keeps on talking and then he goes, oh, excuse myself out.
And then he,
Kevin: They were still finding the tone, Rob.
Rob: finding that tone and then like, and then it's ended within the, like
the crystalline creature comes around and Lore is pretending to be Data,
and, and then, right, and he doesn't understand when Picard says, make
it so, but he doesn't pick it up
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: And then he is teleported off the ship.
No, he just teleported away.
But they, they don't say where, they don't say, is he just gone
into the internal buffer zone?
Is
Kevin: Yeah.
No, he's in, he's inside the crystal,
Rob: He is inside the crystal that just goes away for some reason.
They have a o offhand thing of going, oh, well, because that's
happened, it, it goes away, now.
I'm going, what?
Because what?
In the what with the who, what?
Yeah.
Anyway, so yes.
The crystalline creature does not play a massive part in this episode.
It's more the introduction of Lore, and as you've said, the lore behind
Lore, and especially Data's creation.
Kevin: So the crystalline entity does come back.
Rob: Yes, in season five, episode four, uh, Silicon Avatar, that is the return.
Kevin: And we get to meet Data's mother,
Rob: Um, we, we get to meet a mother, and because, th they explained the
Lore again that Data has absorbed all the information of the colonists,
their diaries, their video messages.
He has pretty much composited an entire history of thousands
of people into his brain.
And, and the doctor's son was killed by the crystalline creature.
So she has come with an ulterior motive.
She's solely there for revenge because her son, uh, was killed
by the crystalline creature on the colony, and she blames obviously Lore
as well, and by extension Data and.
Kevin: Yeah, she gets some nice crazy acting towards the end of the
Rob: crazy acting and data does the whole, they have moments where they communicate.
So he uses the journal entries of her son and they have a bit of a conversation
and he puts on his, his son, you know, her son's voice through Data.
Um, and he thinks that he's turned a corner with her.
Then at the end they use it, 'cause Picard's all about we need to
communicate with this creature.
We, I want to see if there is some way of an establishing a
connection with this creature as opposed to just blindly killing it.
Like the doctor said
Kevin: Right, right, right.
It's coming back to me now.
She, so she's not even from the same colony where, where
Data and Lore were made,
Rob: She was there, she was Her, her son was based there.
Hence, he could, uh, Data could use all his memories and but she was
working as an archeologist or something studying this creature, or, and off
doing, she started studying it after it destroyed the planet, obviously.
Um, but she,
Kevin: It is revealed.
She's seeking revenge.
Rob: And she was feeling guilty that she had left her son on this planet while she
was off doing her, her archeology work.
And the son in his journals never, you know, Data says there was no animosity.
He never felt any, he was just so proud of her, proud of you for being away.
And then right, right at the end, spoiler.
They find this way of communicating and it starts happening.
They're using a gamma pulses or something like that.
It's working and, and Picard's going, they're communicating, they're
understanding, and she goes and turns it up full and they vibrates itself.
And it explodes.
Kevin: She murders the crystalline entity.
I did it for you.
Rob: goes, he, you would've been proud, right?
You would've been proud and.
Kevin: The cold line he
Rob: Beautiful, like I have gone through every single entry and I can
see no evidence that he would be proud.
He would be disappointed.
He would
Kevin: Oh,
Rob: and a great ending for, an awkwardly paced episode, much like, much like
Datalore, it jumps all over the shop.
Like the pre the, the, the cold opener like Rikers flirting with like
Kevin: Yeah.
It goes real slow and then goes real
Rob: Like, yeah, like in a moment they are, you know, light, light flirting,
and he's going, well, I've got some wine, he goes, well, I've got a cabin.
Well, you know, he's literally going, well, I've got a member and you
are on it, type of, I'm going this.
And then she's wiped out within a second and then that's skipped over.
'cause then the doctor comes in, the new character seeking revenge.
There's a little moment where Picard's talking with Riker and Riker
goes, I've watched my friends die.
She died there and this thing doesn't see reason.
Then that's kind of left 'cause it all focuses on the, so it's awkwardly paced
and the script doesn't really, it isn't as cohesive as it could be, but it's
much better because it's season five, so they know a lot more what they're doing.
And Data's final cold line of truth to the doctors.
Really freaking powerful.
Kevin: Yeah.
If You find a button for an episode that is that strong, like it almost doesn't
matter what happened in the episode.
Rob: It kind doesn't.
'cause I was watching that final scene and Spiner is just a absolute gun
and everything I go, I almost went.
Okay.
All is forgiven.
Kevin: All right, Spiner.
It's been a rough week.
It's time for you to bring it home,
Rob: Come on, Spiner.
Bring out,
Kevin: Save the episode.
Rob: out the gold.
Okay.
This this is where we, this is where he wraps it all up.
Wrap it all up.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, since we are here to talk about these giant space creatures, let's
like pull the crystalline entity out of these two episodes and look at
uh, as a, as a thing in isolation.
What are your thoughts on that, that entity, that creature?
What, what, uh, how did it compare to this week's Jikaru, for example?
Rob: There's, it's with a crystalline entity and it looks like sort
of like a three dimensional snowflake, like a global snowflake.
There's
Kevin: It feels like a sample model from a 3D animation
Rob: Very much so.
Very much so.
And I was like, the life form that we saw in this week's episode, um, had a
bit more personality, a bit more, you know, it was dynamic in the way it looked
Kevin: so product of the time, it's, it's obvious, like it's an example
of very early CG and it's a product of the limitations of the technology.
Rob: like Farpoint where it's got sort of like weird space jellyfish.
Um.
This one
Kevin: just between those two episodes you could kind of see the technology
mature and like the, the way the tree like vibrated in response to
the signal in the second episode, it was like, I don't think they could do
that back when the first episode was
Rob: Yeah.
That's why it's all done after.
Um, where they arrive and it's already dead.
Um, but we find out a little bit more in the second episode about.
It's like absorbing a certain type of electromatic energy.
That's what it feeds off and that's the only way it can exist.
Obviously Lore could communicate with it and speak in English and
it understood, in a rougher sense.
Um, but there's a bit more sense of building up how can we communicate
through this musicality or rhythm type stuff, which they were developing
in series, the series five episodes.
So there's little bits there, but not much.
I think they, they did as much as they could with, um, the limitmess.
It was quite limited, this type of creature.
Kevin: I feel like often, often the purpose of these creatures
in Star Trek is to invite us to empathize with a very alien creature.
And that this thing that seems… It's pure crystal, like it seems like a
chemical, not a, not a being at first.
By the end of it, if they've done their job, we feel sorry
for it when it gets destroyed.
And do you think they achieve that here?
Rob: I think so.
I think so.
Uh, for, and for something that doesn't have anything that, that's appealing.
Even in Star Trek IV, you know, you start to get a sense of the probe.
The probe is just a, you know, a, a cylinder in space with a little glow orb
dropped out the front of it, but you get a sense of why it communicates what it is.
It's a mystery where it comes from.
But with this crystalline form, you see the starting point, that point of
going, oh, we could learn so much more.
There's potential of it expanding into this wider, you know,
species, but then it's taken away.
And I, yeah, I do like that fact with something so large and alien looking,
what we perceive it as with our limited humanity and moral compass is just,
it's doing it all 'cause it's evil.
But then you find that you step back and you look at it
from a different perspective.
In the case of why this is the way it feeds, this is the way, you
know, how its world is perceived.
That type of stuff is, is great sci-fi and very beautifully done in Star Trek.
Um, which is great to, to show off.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: What about you?
Which episode did you focus on?
Kevin: I'm gonna take us to an, an episode between those two,
season three, episode 20, Tin Man.
And on rewatching this, it's striking how much this is in many ways, that
episode that we only got glimpses of this week on Strange New Worlds.
It is an episode in which Starfleet becomes aware of a mysterious
space fairing creature, and there's no war to get in the
middle of, but there are Romulans.
And Starfleet sends the Enterprise in order to to investigate this creature
that is hanging around a dying star.
The Romulans are sending a couple of cloaked ships at the same time, so there
is going to be a race, um, and instead of sending an incompetent documentarian
on the ship, Starfleet this time sends a mission specialist, named Tam Elbrun,
who is a Betazoid, a full Betazoid.
Tam Elbrun is a super Betazoid, like he has overdeveloped, uh, uh, psionic
powers or, or, uh, at least, um, em empathic powers, and that's why he is on
this mission is that he stands, of, of all the people, Starfleet can draw and
he stands the best chance of being able to communicate with this, this thing.
So that's the mission.
Go, explore, communicate.
It's a really pure Starfleet mission.
And, uh, all of the drama at first is really around this mission specialist.
He's, because he is, he is so sensitive, he finds it very
uncomfortable to be on a Starship.
He's gotten in trouble before when he is like, ability to process the
thoughts and emotions of the people around him, get the better of him.
And he has caused, uh, uh, uh, one or two disasters in the past on
missions that he has been involved in.
So the Enterprise crew is not particularly happy to have him around.
And, uh, Deanna is somewhat invested in him because she has
treated him as a patient before.
And so all of that stuff is like the early drama.
And then when they finally get to the place, the Romulans show up
and the late drama is about space, space battles with the Romulans.
The Romulans try to disable the Enterprise to get there first.
Tam Elbrun warns Tin Man, and it does a spin and, and destroys the Romulan ship
with the stroke of, uh, an energy beam.
And, uh, yeah, all of this stuff is really fun too.
And so in the end it, it is, yeah, just about discovering this very alien being,
which Tam Elbrun does make contact with, discovers it was a living ship
whose crew was destroyed in an accident, and that ship has now taken itself to
this dying star in order to uh, die.
It wants the sun to go supernova and for it to be consumed because
it cannot live without its crew.
But we have Tam Elbrun, the misfit who fits nowhere because he is too sensitive.
And we have the machine, the ship that has no crew and feels incomplete.
And the two of them fit together like a glove.
They, uh, Tam Elbrun goes aboard the ship and uh, they fly
off into the sunset together.
Rob: Look, that sounds good, but it just needs a film crew.
Um, and really low angle shots close up of our regular cast that would've
really made it something special.
Now, missed opportunity, Kev.
Kevin: The, uh, the actual creature.
I don't know if you've seen this episode.
Here's the link to, uh, the, uh, a photo of it.
It's a really cool, sort of, um, pod shaped thing that it, it has
the feel of like, if you can imagine an onion that, that has layers, but
the layers are made out of wood.
And in between those layers there is like golden light seeping out between them.
And it is just amazing, an amazing piece of production design or visual
design, I think, this, this thing that at first we don't know what to make of
it, but we're pretty sure it's living.
And then by the end we realize it is a, a vessel, a vessel for people to travel in.
I really loved
Rob: See if you now, uh, you seem to really enjoy it, but you
know, it's, is a space onion.
I would've preferred a space parfait.
thought I'd do a Shrek reference there for everybody, uh, listening at home.
Shrek.
Sorry, shout out to, uh, Eddie Murphy as the donkey.
Uh, anyway, yes, thank you for the photo.
It looks very cool.
And that sounds like a, uh, a great episode of, you know, that's what
we love, you know, a big entity that we don't fully understand.
We've got an antagonistic species on one side.
We've got, uh, a species that we know of, but an outsider within that.
Um, I lo and I always love, um, organic ships.
There's a great, uh, it's not, it's not a great Doctor Who, it's a horrible doctor
who story, but it's a great concept, uh, called Claws of Axos, uh, with my
favorite Doctor, Jon Pertwee, where they, at one moment they go, this ship was not
built but grown, and everyone goes Grown?
And there's also illusions later on in the modern series that the TARDIS is actually
a grown being as opposed to a, um, you know, constructed, um, uh, uh, device.
Kevin: For me, living Starships is something I, I saw for the first
time in Babylon 5, I think as as a real big deal and, and, uh, yeah,
very impressive there as well.
Some, some more early CG for you if you want, uh, Babylon 5 for sure.
Um, but yeah, uh, loved Gomtuu, is the its name that it calls
itself by the end of the episode.
Really good.
Rob: And it communicates through a
Kevin: It communicates telepathically.
Rob: Do we hear its voice or
Kevin: We only hear it interpreted through Tam Elbrum.
Rob: That's very, very cool.
That's a great
Kevin: Yeah, it's, it's lovely.
And, and yeah, by the end of like, we feel it's loneliness.
We feel happy that it, that they find each other.
So yeah, I think it does succeed in having us empathize with this extremely
alien thing by the end of the episode, in some respects, this concept is a
do-over of those, uh, those jellyfish things in Encounter at Farpoint because
the crew does walk around in the hallways of that thing that turns out
to be a space jellyfish by the end.
And it's never quite explained or revealed or explored, but it is at least implied by
the production design that these creatures are formed in a way that creates a habitat
for something or someone within it.
Uh, so to come back to that here, and I think more successfully, much
more interestingly, more emotionally impactful, uh, Tin Man is a, is a
really nice revisiting of that concept.
Rob: And especially like having to do it on a episode by episode
budget as opposed to Farpoint, which of course had a lot more money.
They had the all the big bucks put behind that pilot really set it apart.
Kevin: Just comparing the production design of the sets of the interiors,
like Farpoint is they're, they're like rounded triangles, the hallways, and
they have panels on the walls that before you know, it's a creature, they look
like they have circuitry within them.
But when, when the creature comes to life, you can read those same,
uh, textures as like anatomy.
Uh, but it is still very flat.
Uh, uh, you can, you can imagine the wooden beams behind the walls, whereas
the interiors of Tin Man done for one little episode of TNG and not a very
special one, I agree with you, are so much more beautifully realized.
It feels like you're walking around inside of blood vessels.
The floor is not flat.
They're going up and down.
The doors are like these apertures that like are, are, um, you know, the, the
sphincters in our, in our internal organs.
Works beautifully, yeah.
Uh, so big shout out to the, the crew that put together the, that set for those
couple of scenes with Tam Elbrun and Data who beamed over with him to make
sure he didn't do anything too crazy.
Um, Tam Elbrun as the Betazoid who hates hearing everyone's innermost thoughts,
loves Data because he's completely silent.
It's they're best friends immediately.
And that little dynamic is really fun.
At the end when data returns to the Enterprise, he, his parting thought in
the episode, since we're talking about like, uh, powerful final lines from
Brent Spiner, uh, he, he says, um, when Tin Man returned me to the Enterprise,
I realized this is where I belong.
Rob: And of course, Tam is played by the brilliant Harry Groener, a wonderful
Kevin: have said, yeah, big time, uh, character actor in
the, uh, in the genre space.
Rob: Um, his, uh, one of his most defining roles is, uh, mayor Richard
Wilkins in season three, the best season of, uh, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
He is absolutely incredible as the, um,
Kevin: Evil mayor, evil mayor.
Rob: mayor, but he plays it, his, uh, gee Willers 1950s style,
um, you know, sweet apple pie
Kevin: I just want the best for everyone.
Oh, you're so right, evil mayor.
Rob: gonna turn into a big giant monster and eat all your friends and say it.
Um, he's an incredible actor.
Um, and yes, I'll, uh, definitely wanna chase that down just because he is in it.
Um,
I wanna do a shout out very quickly from episode from, uh, the episode
Datalore, the music in it is really awesome done by Ron Jones.
The music is almost cinematic in way.
'cause especially in later on it becomes quite generic television almost synthy.
Kevin: Yeah, TNG spent a lot of money on its orchestrated music,
especially early in its run.
It was, it seemed to be, part of the concept of the show is that we were gonna,
we were gonna assemble the orchestra for every single episode, and we're gonna
write original music for every single episode, which was a huge departure
from the original series that reused the same stings over and over again.
Unless it was a very special episode that that called for a new motif.
Rob: Yes, and it, it definitely stood out for me as the episode was playing out.
I'm going like, especially when they're exploring the undercover
laboratory and they're walking in there for the first time.
There's this music playing and I'm going, this is like, high level,
it really elevated things up, um, which, which surprising to me.
I was used to Star Trek music being at a, a television wise,
being at a certain level, but it, it el it elevated everything.
So Ron Jones work there was outstanding.
Kevin: Nice one.
Oh yeah.
Real good.
Um, worth acknowledging the immunity syndrome from the original series
that we've talked about before.
The one where the, uh, the Enterprise goes into the giant space, amoeba and
Spock has to plant, um, charges near the nucleus in order to explode at all
before everyone dies of depression.
Um, that's a good one as well for giant space creatures.
Rob: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And um, uh, was it last week's episode or where was We were?
Um, yes.
We were confused a little bit about the history of the Rogate and um,
and there was a traumatic incident and I think that was with a space
entity creature as well, like,
Kevin: that was the gaseous creature that comes in through the vents and kills
everyone by exploding their red blood
cells.
Yeah.
So what you were remembering was the TOS episode obsession in which we
learned that Kirk, while he was, uh.
Working as a Phaser crew member aboard the Fargate Lieutenant Kirk.
So this is before this episode of Strange New Worlds significantly,
like four years think.
Um, yeah, they, they were attacked by this gas cloud and, and more than
half the crew, uh, died and Kirk blames him himself for hesitating
given the order to fire Phasers.
Um, and he, in that TOS episode, he, they, the Enterprise basically faces
off against the same creature again.
And Kirk is like, this time, this time, I'm not gonna hesitate,
I'm gonna make the difference.
And what he learned is that it wasn't his fault at all.
But that is interesting to know about or to be reminded of because the
Kirk we are now seeing in Strange New Worlds is like four years on from that
disaster, still blaming himself for it.
Rob: Definitely, definitely.
And involving a space entity as well.
So we here at Subspace Radio love blending everything together.
Kevin: Very good.
I feel like we got a better episode out of this than Strange
New Worlds did this week.
Rob: So in many ways we are always the winner when it
Yeah.
Um, and yes, and we are onto no doubt a
Kevin: Four and a Half Vulcans.
Rob: We're gonna be quirky, we're gonna be silly.
We're gonna be, um, we're gonna be funny.
Kevin: Yeah, I, I am hopeful.
Like when they set out to do comedy, when that is the brief,
I feel like they can do it.
And we've had just enough non-comedy episodes that I'm ready to go there again.
Rob: True.
It's time for that balance.
And that leaves us the final two episodes to go all gung-ho
in being serious and dark.
But, uh, thank you for your time.
Thank you for listening everybody.
And, uh, let us know what you thought of, uh, the documentary
that didn't really have anything other than just one adventure in it.
What did you think?
Kevin: Yeah, we had some pretty spicy takes this week.
And if you do wanna reach out to us, we've got links to our Bluesky and our Mastodon
accounts on our website at subspace.fm.
You can reach out to us in either of those spots and we'll be, we'll
be eager to, uh, compare notes with
Rob: Yes.
Come and reach out here in the subspace.
Kevin: All right.
Until next week, Rob, see you around the galaxy.