WEBVTT 00:00:06.364 --> 00:00:13.167 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast 00:00:13.167 --> 00:00:21.007 where we talk about faith, life, and the Bible, ministry, and have some uncut conversations 00:00:21.007 --> 00:00:29.807 surrounding that. This morning we're sitting down to have, I guess, a conversation that probably 00:00:29.807 --> 00:00:36.687 both of us feel somewhat passionate about, if I had to guess, but kind of this, 00:00:40.047 --> 00:00:47.081 the theme of consumerism in, like, faith or in Christianity is kind of at least the topic that, 00:00:47.540 --> 00:00:53.007 we've said we would sit down to talk about. So we didn't really set any parameters on that, 00:00:53.221 --> 00:00:55.336 but did you have any idea of where we wanted to start with that topic? 00:00:56.165 --> 00:00:59.647 I didn't I was hoping that you had some idea where you wanted to start on that. 00:01:05.327 --> 00:01:11.607 But I do think like, you know, I mean, I guess maybe taking a little bit of like what do we mean by, 00:01:12.247 --> 00:01:13.962 consumerism inside of, 00:01:14.607 --> 00:01:22.367 Christianity and faith like because you might be familiar of consumerism and you might just think oh, well, that's like Black Friday, 00:01:23.315 --> 00:01:31.102 or you know, the idea of just going out consuming, consumerism belongs in commercials 00:01:31.287 --> 00:01:38.727 and the products you buy or the influencers who are influencing you to buy the latest TikTok trend. 00:01:40.727 --> 00:01:50.607 But consumerism can have like a, can have a, it can bleed into the way that we live all of our life, 00:01:50.607 --> 00:01:52.567 including how we practice faith. 00:01:52.567 --> 00:01:57.992 How would you kind of explain what consumerism looks like inside of faith? 00:01:58.267 --> 00:02:06.472 Well, I mean, not too different than, like I think if you want to back up into what consumerism is, 00:02:06.571 --> 00:02:10.118 I don't think it ends up being a whole lot different 00:02:10.244 --> 00:02:16.087 in a worldly context than it does in the context of the church, you know? 00:02:16.087 --> 00:02:17.014 Like if you use the. 00:02:18.562 --> 00:02:24.412 The example of black friday or shopping or something like that. I go to a store and I buy, 00:02:25.052 --> 00:02:32.849 Something right? I give them something and I get something in return and that is the totality of the. 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:40.114 That is the totality of the relationship right, there's not a um, 00:02:40.816 --> 00:02:45.772 I don't necessarily do it out of a sense of like passion for that company, 00:02:46.721 --> 00:02:58.672 Sometimes we do, you know, passion for that company or like ownership in the mission of that company or investment in it. 00:02:58.672 --> 00:03:03.672 I'm giving A and then I'm receiving B. 00:03:03.712 --> 00:03:05.293 And if I don't, I'll make a Yelp review. 00:03:05.552 --> 00:03:12.423 Right, and I'm walking away without the necessity of there being any further relationship. 00:03:12.672 --> 00:03:16.672 But there's no connection beyond the transaction. 00:03:17.689 --> 00:03:22.672 And maybe that's kind of like what I would say that consumerism is. 00:03:22.672 --> 00:03:30.536 There's no connection beyond the transaction. Right. An emphasis on what we get out of the relationship. 00:03:30.950 --> 00:03:33.848 Right. For, well, for the best deal. Right. 00:03:34.672 --> 00:03:44.752 Or what we're owed because of what we give. You know like we give the cashier money. We are owed the product. Yeah, period, 00:03:45.512 --> 00:03:49.192 and It's usually not very emotional, 00:03:50.088 --> 00:03:57.612 No It's just transactional yeah, right there's a transaction without without any kind of connection. 00:04:00.279 --> 00:04:12.032 Like you said that that we tend to talk about consumerism from the standpoint of like the how it might bleed 00:04:12.032 --> 00:04:23.052 over into the gray area of materialism and the dangers of materialism, both from a psychological 00:04:23.052 --> 00:04:25.017 but also spiritual perspective. 00:04:27.790 --> 00:04:36.297 But there's an undercurrent in the Christian church of how consumerism has begun to creep 00:04:36.342 --> 00:04:43.895 into a person's relationship with their church or with the community of faith as well. 00:04:44.252 --> 00:04:49.892 And if you use the same kind of definition or understanding of consumerism and lay it 00:04:49.892 --> 00:04:55.013 over top of a person's relationship with church, there's a transaction without a connection. 00:04:55.283 --> 00:05:05.052 It begins to be a lens through which you can see a lot of maybe spiritual health. 00:05:07.931 --> 00:05:15.161 Issues that both people and churches have because this is not just an issue that individuals, 00:05:16.339 --> 00:05:21.281 Have against the church. This is also a way that churches and their leadership, 00:05:22.218 --> 00:05:26.341 Can view their relationship with the congregation that they are responsible for? 00:05:27.304 --> 00:05:34.321 Well, like yeah, I was gonna say like one of the most blatant examples I've ever encountered of like, 00:05:34.983 --> 00:05:36.513 like consumerism in church. 00:05:37.041 --> 00:05:43.081 This was a number of years ago. And in the area, this was back in Ohio where I grew up. 00:05:43.081 --> 00:05:49.681 And this was back when like church mailers for like, was like the big way. 00:05:49.681 --> 00:05:54.527 Drop shipping. Yeah, drop shipping, you know, a thousand mailers on Easter week. 00:05:54.841 --> 00:05:58.596 Easter week, that was exactly it. We got like, I don't know, we got like five. 00:05:58.681 --> 00:06:00.324 There was one year we got like seven. 00:06:00.961 --> 00:06:06.641 Like it was ridiculous. I don't know if all these churches went to the same conference and somebody talked them into. 00:06:08.481 --> 00:06:15.592 Doing those. Anyways, I could talk about mailers. But we got this one particular mailer that to 00:06:15.761 --> 00:06:22.401 this day sticks out in my mind, which is, one, good marketing, but two, it sticks out in my mind 00:06:22.401 --> 00:06:28.001 for a really bad reason. Hey, any publicity is good publicity. Is that what they say? 00:06:28.001 --> 00:06:32.881 I guess. I mean, maybe it guaranteed, though, I would never, ever go to that church. 00:06:34.401 --> 00:06:41.281 It was a... I can't exactly remember the phrase, but what they had on the front of it was like. 00:06:43.121 --> 00:06:48.072 Do you feel like your church is missing something? Check out our church. 00:06:49.774 --> 00:06:51.601 It was something to the... Barf. 00:06:51.601 --> 00:06:59.118 It was something to the degree of that, of like, your church lacking? Is your church just 00:06:59.424 --> 00:07:07.361 not feeding you? Is your church like... Whatever. And come to our church this Easter and experience, 00:07:08.165 --> 00:07:15.841 real presence of Christ and da-da-da-da-da, this utter commodifying of... At that point, 00:07:16.528 --> 00:07:22.704 you're not even trying to reach like what we call christers, people who attend church 00:07:22.961 --> 00:07:24.883 mostly on Christmas and Easter. 00:07:25.001 --> 00:07:28.621 You're not trying to reach people who've like, just maybe haven't been the church in a long time 00:07:28.621 --> 00:07:30.347 or are looking for a new church to go to. 00:07:30.881 --> 00:07:35.961 Like you're reaching people who are actively involved in a church and are dissatisfied 00:07:35.961 --> 00:07:37.270 with their current church experience. 00:07:38.710 --> 00:07:44.161 Right, yeah. You're cutting the fence in between your pasture and someone else trying to get the sheep to come through. Flock stealing. 00:07:44.161 --> 00:07:52.201 Flock stealing, yeah. talk about an inside pastor term, but that's definitely what that was. I was 00:07:52.510 --> 00:07:57.201 like, that's icky, like that is just a like. 00:07:58.686 --> 00:08:06.095 You are essentially saying, like, what we are doing at our church is oriented to attract you 00:08:06.293 --> 00:08:15.336 and to try and be a better experience, better product, better deal for you than whatever it 00:08:15.336 --> 00:08:21.656 is that you're currently... It's like the power companies trying to get you to change power 00:08:21.966 --> 00:08:25.456 Companies or something like that, right? Right. Well in that whole, 00:08:26.764 --> 00:08:27.601 that whole, 00:08:29.069 --> 00:08:36.456 Attitude or thought process or whatever really birthed a whole movement of church leadership in the, 00:08:38.008 --> 00:08:42.576 Mmm, I guess late 90 early late 80s early 90s. 00:08:44.296 --> 00:08:49.376 Kind of as the Jesus movement which started with the hippies maybe you guys 00:08:49.376 --> 00:08:56.056 I don't know we talked about that talked about that a little bit. There's a movie Jesus revolution talks about the beginning of the Jesus, 00:08:57.056 --> 00:09:03.436 Movement, but as the Jesus movement which kind of started with the hippies and along with that counterculture cultural movement, 00:09:04.136 --> 00:09:09.376 Formalized and kind of took some of the principles and made them into like rules of engagement, 00:09:10.335 --> 00:09:12.976 It kind of formalized into this seeker sensitive, 00:09:14.416 --> 00:09:14.674 Like, 00:09:16.256 --> 00:09:20.096 movement is what it was kind of called, at least in part, like... 00:09:20.096 --> 00:09:22.656 Pentecostal. Church growth movement. Church growth. 00:09:22.656 --> 00:09:27.696 You know, yeah, seeker-sensitive, you know, kind of pioneered by, and I'm not saying anything 00:09:27.696 --> 00:09:32.416 pejorative about their ministries, pioneered by churches like Saddleback out in California 00:09:32.416 --> 00:09:42.096 and Willow Creek in Chicago, where there was an extraordinary amount of effort and focus 00:09:42.176 --> 00:09:46.092 towards making the church experience. 00:09:47.352 --> 00:09:52.202 As attractive as possible to both a believing. 00:09:55.602 --> 00:10:00.937 And unbelieving world. Now at the surface, no one would say, 00:10:01.378 --> 00:10:06.882 even us here at Conduit, I'm not trying to make the experience unattractive. 00:10:06.882 --> 00:10:09.162 I'm not trying to repel people. 00:10:10.578 --> 00:10:20.562 But also not orienting the things that we do do towards making sure we at conduit are, for instance, 00:10:23.282 --> 00:10:32.122 like more attractive, more glitz, more glam, more polish, more X, Y, or Z than the church up the hill 00:10:32.122 --> 00:10:34.482 or the church down the road or the church across town 00:10:34.632 --> 00:10:39.458 because as long as we put on a better face, 00:10:40.562 --> 00:10:43.302 then people will wanna be here more than they're there. 00:10:43.302 --> 00:10:52.242 And that might be true, they might wanna be here more than they're there, but I don't want people here, 00:10:53.222 --> 00:10:57.201 because it's more spit and polish. 00:11:00.613 --> 00:11:04.925 Well, I think it's easy, and we've talked a little bit, 00:11:07.242 --> 00:11:19.382 about church growth and stuff, and we have a lot to say think about all of that. But like, it's easy to look backwards and see now where we are in 2023 00:11:19.382 --> 00:11:25.142 and say, oh, look at all the excesses and the weaknesses of some of the extremes of 00:11:25.142 --> 00:11:28.196 of seeker-sensitive and church-growth movement, 00:11:28.655 --> 00:11:31.464 and be a little bit like, meh, right? 00:11:31.542 --> 00:11:32.796 But like, again. 00:11:34.029 --> 00:11:39.559 If you were there, right, like you were dealing with, you know, churches, just genuinely saying, 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:46.119 like, how can we reach people? Yeah. Like, how can we, you know, like, how can we, 00:11:46.362 --> 00:11:50.359 how can we engage a culture and people group that the church isn't currently engaging? 00:11:50.359 --> 00:11:55.879 How can we be all things to all people? Yeah. Right. As far as it is up to me and all of that, 00:11:56.382 --> 00:12:00.119 you know, now we see some of the excesses of it. But I also want to just even say that like, 00:12:00.838 --> 00:12:10.719 Like, there can be consumerism outside of sort of, you know, the church we've been talking 00:12:10.719 --> 00:12:16.439 about so far kind of fits the like, I'm going to go super generic here. 00:12:16.673 --> 00:12:19.932 I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong with Hayes machines and lights, but, 00:12:20.652 --> 00:12:27.683 the Hayes machines, the lights, the really like the TED talk formed, like pastor, like 00:12:27.971 --> 00:12:33.379 all... It's not a sanctuary, it's a worship center. It has no windows. 00:12:33.379 --> 00:12:34.966 It's an auditorium. Right. 00:12:35.059 --> 00:12:41.619 Right. The internet video that went around last... Was that Christmas or Easter where they had the, 00:12:42.259 --> 00:12:47.128 guy with the... Suspended from the ceiling and the drummer, and they were like... Oh, 00:12:47.379 --> 00:12:50.053 I think it was a Christmas production that this church was putting on. 00:12:51.476 --> 00:12:57.046 Suspended wire trapeze artist drummer person dress like Jesus dress like. 00:12:59.366 --> 00:13:03.726 Don't think he was but it would have when I wouldn't put it past it would have fit. 00:13:05.168 --> 00:13:07.644 You know, so we can kind of talk about that more like oh, yeah, that's obviously, 00:13:08.526 --> 00:13:13.126 Consumerism. Well, I don't go to a church like that. So I've escaped consumerism. Oh my god. 00:13:14.090 --> 00:13:20.386 Like there is definitely a brand of consumerism arguably kind of just a less appealing brand or more, 00:13:21.237 --> 00:13:31.023 indie brand, when you go to a church that's like, oh, we we preach directly from the Bible verse by verse. Yeah. And like, 00:13:31.113 --> 00:13:36.186 you know, we only listen to these type of pastors or were, 00:13:36.829 --> 00:13:45.426 this, like, if anyone's listening, who is like, super reformed, like I'm saying this as somebody who was very, very 00:13:45.426 --> 00:13:49.666 reformed at a point like very much in the Young, Restless and 00:13:49.856 --> 00:13:54.906 and reformed movement, there is definitely a brand inside of the reformed movement. 00:13:54.906 --> 00:13:58.426 Oh my gosh, probably more than any other movement. 00:13:58.546 --> 00:14:03.746 Yeah, cause it's like, well, do you read it? There's certain authors you have to read. 00:14:04.205 --> 00:14:09.146 Piper. Piper. MacArthur. MacArthur, right? Like, and then you've got to, well, do you read Baxter? 00:14:09.146 --> 00:14:13.387 Like, you know, you gotta go to like, back to the Puritans if you're really, you know, 00:14:13.466 --> 00:14:19.131 like inside of that young and restless and reformed space. I don't know what that space has transformed into now. 00:14:19.266 --> 00:14:26.072 If it's just reformed in general or what, but inside of some of those more conservative, 00:14:26.266 --> 00:14:33.534 less flashy, you know, obstinately, like we sing modern hymns, you know, only, right? 00:14:33.634 --> 00:14:42.753 That still can be a brand of its own, kind of its own bit of like virtue, like. 00:14:43.946 --> 00:14:50.009 Well, yeah, because on the like, consumerism is not, consumerism in the church is not, 00:14:51.706 --> 00:14:56.706 funneled into one particular like brand of church. 00:14:58.586 --> 00:15:01.186 Or thought process or whatever. 00:15:01.186 --> 00:15:08.688 It's a, it remains, it still remains the same whether you're reformed or whether you're Catholic 00:15:08.826 --> 00:15:13.757 or whether you're Presbyterian or whether you're Methodist or non-denominational or whatever is that. 00:15:14.666 --> 00:15:23.083 What is my primary relationship with the church that I attend? 00:15:23.546 --> 00:15:27.260 And what is my expectation. 00:15:28.871 --> 00:15:38.241 And what are the expectations of me in relationship to that church. So when we said at the beginning 00:15:38.241 --> 00:15:42.881 that this can go both ways, that churches can have a very consumeristic attitude when it comes to 00:15:42.881 --> 00:15:47.056 their congregants, and that congregants can have a very consumeristic attitude when it comes to 00:15:47.361 --> 00:15:56.721 their church leadership, is to say that a leadership on the church, pastors, leadership teams, elders, 00:15:56.721 --> 00:16:01.001 you know, whatever form of leadership is over your church, 00:16:01.001 --> 00:16:06.001 can ask very little of their congregants, 00:16:07.721 --> 00:16:12.721 in terms of like personal sacrifice and serving. 00:16:15.001 --> 00:16:25.001 And like involvement in mission and ministry and ministry and be a very top-heavy leadership. 00:16:29.921 --> 00:16:36.442 And the execution of ministry, where, you know... 00:16:36.533 --> 00:16:39.921 Leave it to the professionals. Leave it to the professionals type of attitude, yeah. 00:16:39.921 --> 00:16:44.292 And then, and what it does is it creates a place, 00:16:44.921 --> 00:16:53.655 it creates a place or a community that it becomes very easy to have to give up nothing. 00:16:56.797 --> 00:17:04.207 To be there and I Think one of the primary messages of Jesus to the disciples is, 00:17:05.727 --> 00:17:13.407 You will have to give up everything to follow me even your very life, 00:17:15.071 --> 00:17:21.607 Like I will get I'm going to be giving up my life Those who follow me will also have to give up theirs 00:17:21.607 --> 00:17:26.360 Give up their life so that they may gain their life essentially. Yeah, you know, 00:17:27.967 --> 00:17:35.290 And when we fail as leaders and I have failed at this when we have failed as leaders to, 00:17:36.416 --> 00:17:45.847 rightly and truthfully Communicate that reality Then we create a place where it's easy to just come on a Sunday, 00:17:46.840 --> 00:17:48.235 Have an experience, 00:17:49.469 --> 00:17:55.933 grab a cup of coffee, shake a few hands, sit in an air conditioned room, sing a few songs, 00:17:56.087 --> 00:18:00.731 listening to something that either inspires us or convicts us or challenges us or whatever, 00:18:00.967 --> 00:18:03.593 and then leave without being. 00:18:07.847 --> 00:18:10.525 Without being, I guess I would say, 00:18:14.367 --> 00:18:22.967 without being, I don't wanna say forced, but without being forced to count the cost 00:18:22.967 --> 00:18:27.967 of what participation in the community of Jesus 00:18:28.107 --> 00:18:30.996 actually requires of us. 00:18:31.487 --> 00:18:37.244 Or like another way of saying it is not hearing the call of Christ to pick up the cross. 00:18:40.647 --> 00:18:45.687 You know, as I'm kind of like, I'm reminded of, I had a theology professor 00:18:45.687 --> 00:18:49.967 who I think one of, probably one of his favorite lectures 00:18:49.967 --> 00:18:52.134 that he probably still is giving to this day, 00:18:53.387 --> 00:19:00.647 is he loved this lecture where he would pull out all these old, he'd pull out different tracts, 00:19:00.647 --> 00:19:04.647 gospel tracts, you know, little pamphlets, 00:19:05.376 --> 00:19:12.884 and handouts that people will either hand to people or sometimes just. 00:19:14.207 --> 00:19:20.869 Place places for people to find them that explain the gospel. And he loves to pull those out and then 00:19:20.968 --> 00:19:28.217 kind of show the theology or the practical theology that some of them encapsulate. And one 00:19:28.217 --> 00:19:36.857 of his big things is like, we've commodified the gospel by separating it from Christ Himself. 00:19:36.857 --> 00:19:43.137 So, he was all about like, you know, receiving the gift of salvation, right? 00:19:43.137 --> 00:19:50.777 Which is not necessarily a bad terminology in itself, but when salvation, he was just 00:19:51.000 --> 00:20:00.057 like, we talk about salvation as if it's something that is a thing that we get from Jesus without 00:20:00.057 --> 00:20:02.243 getting Jesus himself. 00:20:02.697 --> 00:20:06.777 And so he's making all this argument, because like the Bible, and I think he's right in 00:20:06.777 --> 00:20:11.011 in this, the Bible and Paul in particular, as much as they talk about salvation, they 00:20:11.417 --> 00:20:19.577 talk about being united to Christ more, right? And so, being in Christ, united to Christ, 00:20:19.577 --> 00:20:30.657 partaking in Christ, is the primary theological way of understanding salvation. And Christ 00:20:30.657 --> 00:20:37.136 is like, and partaking in Christ is more than just, you know, getting something. It's, you know. 00:20:38.497 --> 00:20:45.857 Having a relationship, it's being called, being transformed, having a life that we now live as a 00:20:45.857 --> 00:20:53.617 result of it, rather than just, oh, I got my fire insurance card. I'm a Christian, I've got my 00:20:53.617 --> 00:21:06.375 certified Christian card, I've got whatever, because salvation isn't just getting a thing that like benefits us in some way. It's receiving Christ, and, 00:21:06.844 --> 00:21:12.017 Christ is gonna do something in your life, and that's different. And I think 00:21:12.017 --> 00:21:13.417 sometimes the way that we've. 00:21:14.874 --> 00:21:21.524 Oversimplified the gospel and sometimes maybe led to that. Or I'd be interested in what you, 00:21:22.164 --> 00:21:37.844 think about this. Do you feel like a overuse or an overemphasis on felt-need preaching, 00:21:38.973 --> 00:21:46.244 has impacted or reinforced this idea of like consumerism inside of the church? 00:21:47.273 --> 00:21:59.444 I think it certainly can. Even, I think even when pastors and preachers have the best intentions of 00:21:59.444 --> 00:22:04.444 of their preaching, I think that there's a natural desire, 00:22:05.484 --> 00:22:12.164 to want to preach towards what you know people in your congregation are experiencing 00:22:12.164 --> 00:22:19.984 and how maybe the scripture or life in Christ addresses that or speaks to it. 00:22:21.044 --> 00:22:32.500 I think probably there's overcorrections in terms of like the volume of that type of preaching that are unhealthy. 00:22:33.058 --> 00:22:37.722 But I wouldn't necessarily say that. 00:22:38.991 --> 00:22:47.048 Um, you know the idea of felt need Is Can have like both pejorative con, 00:22:47.801 --> 00:22:51.321 Yeah, annotations and also and also in positive, right? 00:22:51.401 --> 00:22:54.921 And i'm not i'm not setting up the question to try and knock down because like 00:22:55.321 --> 00:22:59.894 I could make my own argument for the inclusion of felt need preaching right but yes, yeah, 00:23:00.713 --> 00:23:09.681 um so I do I do think that there there can be a a over-correction towards what do, 00:23:10.041 --> 00:23:13.208 which is what I think you're asking or saying is what, 00:23:13.921 --> 00:23:21.257 what is gonna be the thing that people want to hear from the pulpit, you know, the topics, 00:23:21.601 --> 00:23:26.586 the, yeah, the topic space. 00:23:28.481 --> 00:23:32.961 It's usually topical preaching that does it, you know, the topics, the, you know, 00:23:32.961 --> 00:23:40.061 people want to hear messages on parenting and marriage and finances and like getting 00:23:40.061 --> 00:23:42.853 the most out of your job or something like that. 00:23:43.141 --> 00:23:47.597 Like that would be like a, you know, that would be like a really key example of like, 00:23:48.461 --> 00:23:53.601 how do you find satisfaction in the five key areas of your life? 00:23:53.601 --> 00:23:55.132 Join us for this five week series. 00:23:55.294 --> 00:23:56.212 Right, right. 00:23:56.410 --> 00:24:01.803 I mean, it's like Christian hacking five different areas of your, you know, of your life. 00:24:02.081 --> 00:24:07.843 Is it that the word of God doesn't address those things? No, I mean, it does. 00:24:08.491 --> 00:24:16.281 It does. But if I were to take all of the passages of scripture or the volume or intensity on which Jesus taught 00:24:16.281 --> 00:24:21.281 on forgiveness versus what he taught on marriage, 00:24:22.742 --> 00:24:28.422 then we would say, okay, if we preach in proportion to the witness of scripture, 00:24:28.927 --> 00:24:39.576 then we're gonna be teaching a lot on forgiveness and sacrifice and not a whole lot on the relationship, 00:24:40.661 --> 00:24:44.888 maybe between husband and wife or the relationship between parents and their kids 00:24:44.981 --> 00:24:47.444 or how to balance a budget. 00:24:49.254 --> 00:24:55.456 Well, and the funny thing is, and I don't wanna, again, there's certainly someone who could do, 00:24:55.897 --> 00:24:58.961 like a sermon series like that. 00:25:00.137 --> 00:25:09.068 Finding satisfaction in these five key areas of your life, family, finances, work, da, da, da, da, da. 00:25:10.447 --> 00:25:17.125 And you could do that, but if you preach that and the answer isn't somewhat come and die 00:25:17.367 --> 00:25:21.095 for each and every single one of those, the preachers misled you. 00:25:22.767 --> 00:25:27.807 Because you want to find satisfaction in your family, you need to die to your family. 00:25:28.071 --> 00:25:36.847 You want to find satisfaction in your finances, Die to your finances want want to find satisfaction in your work. You need to find a way to die and become like christ in your work, 00:25:37.794 --> 00:25:40.607 That's that's not a very like can you imagine? 00:25:41.341 --> 00:25:45.887 Sending out the easter flyer That says come learn how to die, 00:25:47.327 --> 00:25:52.927 That conduit ministries, I mean actually that would be a flyer I would advocate for because I think that would work, 00:25:53.727 --> 00:26:03.441 it might Yeah. But that's the thing about that. I think that's the potential danger of felt need preaching 00:26:03.513 --> 00:26:10.868 is like, I'm going to find a need that you feel like, oh, like, yeah, I really wish I could just, 00:26:11.714 --> 00:26:17.087 get some clear answers and some help to deal with this situation or this area in my life. 00:26:17.791 --> 00:26:23.447 And if we're honest like there's so many things and tips and things that we can kind of like. 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:31.850 You know, we can talk about, but at the end of the day, like, it still becomes like, 00:26:32.537 --> 00:26:38.730 die to self, live to Christ. And that's not a very, like, feel-good message. 00:26:40.161 --> 00:26:46.010 It would much, you would much be rather, it would be, you would be more happy to come to a church 00:26:46.010 --> 00:26:53.610 and say, well, you just like, what you don't know is that God is about to, like, just break through 00:26:53.610 --> 00:27:00.730 in your life in this situation, totally fix it supernaturally, totally like just, boom, and like, 00:27:01.450 --> 00:27:06.250 that breakthrough's coming, you know, like I can kind of, I can hear it in my head. 00:27:08.168 --> 00:27:17.130 But inside of that, there's no call to be like Christ. And I'm speaking to a room full of people, 00:27:17.130 --> 00:27:21.290 I don't know that that's true for everyone, right? 00:27:21.290 --> 00:27:28.210 Some people are called through experiences that feel like they're Job for extended periods of time. 00:27:28.210 --> 00:27:35.651 Like I, you know, like I don't have, I think that leaves people out who just are, 00:27:36.150 --> 00:27:41.089 don't experience immediate breakthrough in whatever situation or problem they're facing, 00:27:41.490 --> 00:27:43.060 left out to dry a little bit. 00:27:43.330 --> 00:27:51.090 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would I would agree. Yeah, I would agree Anyways, apparently I have opinions on that, 00:27:52.850 --> 00:27:56.590 Well, I think we both do we definitely both do and. 00:27:58.770 --> 00:28:08.438 Again it's it seems like a tricky balance between between do I want people to want to come here, 00:28:09.330 --> 00:28:15.640 and make it an attractive place and a welcoming place and a place of hospitality and warmth? 00:28:15.810 --> 00:28:18.439 Well, yeah, of course. 00:28:18.610 --> 00:28:25.083 Right. You know? And it doesn't mean that we won't ever preach on topics or. We do. 00:28:25.530 --> 00:28:33.770 We like. Yeah. We do. You know, we'll do those things. But like, at least our goal is to be as biblically honest 00:28:33.770 --> 00:28:36.570 as possible any time we do that. 00:28:36.894 --> 00:28:43.490 Right, well, and yeah, to call people to, yeah, to be biblically honest, 00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:49.551 to call people to the things that the Bible calls people to, which is, come and die. 00:28:51.090 --> 00:28:56.213 Yeah. Yeah, come and die so that you may find life. Yeah, well, you've heard it here, folks. 00:28:56.650 --> 00:29:01.370 That's all we've got to say, just come and die. Yeah, come and die so that you may find life 00:29:01.370 --> 00:29:03.748 for us to live as Christ and to die as Cain. 00:29:04.171 --> 00:29:07.930 Right, my witnesses make his glory more visible. Right. 00:29:08.573 --> 00:29:14.172 Like, message of the Christian life. but that's not, that doesn't fit into a very, it's a. 00:29:15.190 --> 00:29:19.360 You know, I think what we're pointing out is the irony is that when we take very literally the words 00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:27.307 of Christ and we were to put them on a banner and wave... We had like a sign thrower, like one of 00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:35.760 those sign flippers, and it just said, come and die here. One of the big like... 00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:41.120 The big wobbly... The big wobbly men outside, I don't know what you even call them. 00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:49.600 Like, come and die. But that's like, that's, and so that's when, like, that's when marketing the 00:29:49.600 --> 00:29:56.640 church and some of that stuff just becomes absolutely laughable is because, like, well, 00:29:57.347 --> 00:30:04.240 you can't do that for just any verse. I think I've probably made fun of them here, but like, 00:30:04.792 --> 00:30:10.851 Like, you know, and not all of these are bad, like, but there is just that, like, you know, 00:30:11.800 --> 00:30:14.640 Bible verses that you couldn't put on a mug. 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.800 We should do that. We should make a company out of that. 00:30:19.800 --> 00:30:27.560 Let's create an Etsy store about Bible verses that don't belong on t-shirts and mugs. 00:30:27.560 --> 00:30:30.760 Let us know in the comments if you'd buy that. 00:30:30.760 --> 00:30:43.720 That would be... We're doing it. be written. So many verses. Oh, goodness. That is bringing up a rabbit trail. 00:30:46.274 --> 00:30:56.840 That'll be fun. That'll be fun. Yeah, guys, the Bible is not like... If you take the time to read it from cover to cover, 00:30:56.840 --> 00:30:58.520 there is some stuff in there. 00:30:58.520 --> 00:31:02.001 It is not sterile. It is not sterile. It is like, um... 00:31:03.136 --> 00:31:11.946 Of the... There's some children's Bibles, not Bibles written for children, but Bibles that are 00:31:11.946 --> 00:31:17.226 maybe an easier translation, but still the full text of the Bible always kind of make me a little 00:31:17.226 --> 00:31:22.671 bit laugh a little bit inside, because they have a funny, goofy picture on the outside, 00:31:22.906 --> 00:31:27.406 but they still have the full text of Song of Songs inside of them, which is... 00:31:27.622 --> 00:31:38.826 Or Old Testament dashing babies upon the rocks. Yeah, that psalm's still in that Bible. There's just a cute lion on the front of the cover. 00:31:38.826 --> 00:31:40.450 I know, it's very colorful. 00:31:40.586 --> 00:31:41.706 It's very colorful. 00:31:42.746 --> 00:31:50.346 Oh yeah, we could talk about the different marketing of Bibles. 00:31:51.866 --> 00:31:58.506 Yeah. That's a boy Bible, because it's got a camo on it. Camo, yeah. It's a girl Bible, because it's got a cabbage patch doll on the front of it, 00:31:58.506 --> 00:32:02.186 or something stupid like that. Yeah. Well, you didn't change anything else other than the 00:32:02.236 --> 00:32:06.586 cover. So talk about consumerism. Yeah. Felt needs. 00:32:08.106 --> 00:32:15.266 By the way, we're not like, if you have a Bible that means a lot to you and it's got camel on it, like that's fine. Um, you 00:32:15.266 --> 00:32:19.466 know, but you know, by, by a Bible you like, right? Yeah. 00:32:21.789 --> 00:32:32.066 So you have anything else to say on the issue? Or? Well, yeah, I guess, I don't know, what is, is there, do we need to clarify any more of 00:32:32.066 --> 00:32:33.066 the anecdote? 00:32:33.066 --> 00:32:37.586 I mean, we've kind of typified that the Bible does call us to come and die. 00:32:37.586 --> 00:32:42.656 Is there anything else that we need to say or nuance to that? 00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:51.506 I mean, I don't know what I would say other than our lives are not our own. 00:32:52.261 --> 00:33:00.390 Maybe that's a little bit what I said this past Sunday, like that there is a significant trend to find my purpose. 00:33:07.786 --> 00:33:15.366 Do we have a purpose? Yeah, we do have a purpose, but it's not our purpose for our lives, 00:33:15.541 --> 00:33:18.366 it's God's purpose for our lives. 00:33:18.366 --> 00:33:24.326 Our lives are not our own. We do not, you know, we do not belong to ourselves. 00:33:24.326 --> 00:33:29.326 We are not the captain of our own ship. 00:33:30.366 --> 00:33:33.870 We are not the master of our own souls. And you don't want to be. 00:33:35.206 --> 00:33:42.503 Like as much as you think you want your life to orient around you and your needs 00:33:42.606 --> 00:33:48.697 and like you wanna have complete control over your life, like to be 100% honest, that's pretty miserable, 00:33:49.201 --> 00:33:50.083 at the end of the day. 00:33:50.246 --> 00:33:56.925 Well, I mean, like I, when we talk about, when we talk about, you know, 00:33:57.086 --> 00:33:59.184 What is the classic definition of sin? 00:34:01.498 --> 00:34:08.032 I mean, there's the falling short. Yeah, there's like, most people use the Greek definition, amartia, which means to miss the 00:34:08.032 --> 00:34:16.912 mark. Right? I think that to me, while I don't disagree with it, obviously, it feels almost, 00:34:18.341 --> 00:34:25.392 like it has too many nuances in like ethics and morality. It just wasn't good enough. 00:34:25.696 --> 00:34:30.392 I actually prefer the Latin word for sin in the Vulgate. 00:34:33.232 --> 00:34:39.559 It's incurvitis se, sin is incurvitis se, which means to be turned in on oneself. 00:34:40.872 --> 00:34:44.646 So to be focused inwardly on me. 00:34:46.472 --> 00:34:53.270 And to say like, you don't, like, the thing is that people wanna be focused on themselves. 00:34:54.467 --> 00:35:00.792 My life, my plan, my goals, my opinions, my preferences, my thoughts, my relationships, my desires, 00:35:00.792 --> 00:35:03.127 my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my. 00:35:04.992 --> 00:35:09.992 And we were not created for us. 00:35:13.232 --> 00:35:22.852 We were created to bring glory to our creator, to be a reflection of his majesty and his power, 00:35:26.292 --> 00:35:33.532 and his honor and his glory. And there's a, you know, like an extraordinarily 00:35:33.861 --> 00:35:35.877 prideful response from the world, 00:35:36.417 --> 00:35:45.429 that why would I want to serve a God who is so narcissistic that he would just want me to bring him glory. 00:35:49.252 --> 00:35:56.652 And my reaction or response to that type of attitude is you're right, it is narcissistic if he's not worth it. 00:35:59.904 --> 00:36:08.955 You know, if he is not worthy of the glory, then the desire for the glory is a narcissistic response. 00:36:09.955 --> 00:36:16.874 If he is worthy of it, and he is, then there's no narcissism at all. 00:36:17.846 --> 00:36:27.535 It reorients our position in the proverbial, in the proverbial eternal hierarchy 00:36:27.535 --> 00:36:32.175 as not being worthy of our own glory. 00:36:32.175 --> 00:36:37.165 We are not worthy of our own supreme focus on ourselves. 00:36:37.535 --> 00:36:44.695 Only God is worthy of the supreme focus. So to be, yeah, turned in on ourselves 00:36:44.695 --> 00:36:51.902 is the very definition of sin, where we say no to the pursuit of bringing glory to God, 00:36:52.703 --> 00:36:56.232 and yes to the pursuit of bringing glory to ourselves. 00:36:57.135 --> 00:37:07.304 Well, that makes me think of the quote by Augustine, our hearts are restless until they find rest in thee. Rest in him, yeah. 00:37:07.495 --> 00:37:12.913 And what I always, like thinking about what that restlessness is. 00:37:14.655 --> 00:37:25.552 Like leads me to a place of like thinking about, Um, you know, if you've ever hyped something up or, you know, you, 00:37:26.957 --> 00:37:32.043 You know, I don't know maybe you bought like a really really expensive ticket to a really six, you know, great, 00:37:32.619 --> 00:37:36.887 You know really a concert that you anticipated being really really good and you built it up, 00:37:37.543 --> 00:37:42.864 and then you get there and you have a terrible experience and you're like Oh, that was so not worth it 00:37:42.990 --> 00:37:49.543 like that was like I or like you know this happens to people when they like, you know go to the movie theater because like, you know, they, 00:37:50.444 --> 00:37:55.927 Oh, I bought a paid an extra paid a ticket on top of all the subscriptions for streaming I have, 00:37:56.475 --> 00:38:01.527 And then I maybe got some popcorn and I went out and went and saw this movie in the movie theater 00:38:01.527 --> 00:38:04.167 I've been so excited for this next movie and whatever, 00:38:04.847 --> 00:38:14.007 Franchise it is you're watching and then you're like, oh that was dumb That was the mad and then you get real mad because it didn't meet the expectations, 00:38:14.705 --> 00:38:17.967 Or the demands that you were putting on of it. It wasn't worthy. 00:38:19.017 --> 00:38:23.667 Another way to put like religious language on that is to say it wasn't worthy of the worship. You were giving it 00:38:24.004 --> 00:38:30.187 And the thing is, is when we, like you said, turn in on ourselves, what we end up finding 00:38:30.187 --> 00:38:32.187 is that we are not worthy of our own worship. 00:38:32.547 --> 00:38:33.105 Exactly, yep. 00:38:33.667 --> 00:38:40.587 And that leaves us dissatisfied. Anything, whether that is family, your kids, 00:38:40.811 --> 00:38:48.247 your wife, your job, your career, your status, your success, your longevity, your health, 00:38:48.427 --> 00:38:51.272 any number of things that you could worship, 00:38:51.467 --> 00:38:56.790 that you could put all of your energy, time, meaning, value, significance, and identity into. 00:38:57.347 --> 00:39:00.877 You go and pursue those things. Ultimately, at the end of the road, 00:39:01.387 --> 00:39:03.254 you will find that it's all meaningless. 00:39:03.427 --> 00:39:09.427 Read Ecclesiastes, it's all meaningless. All things have their time under the sun, 00:39:09.427 --> 00:39:12.472 but it's all the same, and it's all meaningless. 00:39:13.027 --> 00:39:17.612 And you find that it's not worth your life spent out for those things. 00:39:18.447 --> 00:39:23.627 But when we turn to Christ, when we turn to God, we find rest in him. 00:39:23.627 --> 00:39:30.234 We finally find that like, oh, we have found a place, found a person, we found God who is actually worth, 00:39:30.947 --> 00:39:36.787 all of the things that I could spend out on him and I won't be left dissatisfied at the end of it. 00:39:36.787 --> 00:39:38.714 That's how I talk about it. 00:39:38.987 --> 00:39:40.910 Period, at the end of the sentence, yeah. 00:39:44.587 --> 00:39:51.578 Yeah, the heart of consumerism may be self-worship. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. 00:39:54.297 --> 00:39:57.947 Anything else? No, that's it. That's it. That's it. We better end it right now, 00:39:59.667 --> 00:40:02.381 Okay, well, thanks everyone for listening or watching again as, 00:40:03.427 --> 00:40:13.787 always, please Feel free to send us in questions comments anything like that. Our text line is 7 1 6 2 0 1 0 5 0 7 00:40:13.787 --> 00:40:15.389 Or you can text in your questions, 00:40:16.253 --> 00:40:20.267 Or your comments or whatever they go to Luke's phone, so I don't care what you send 00:40:20.267 --> 00:40:25.307 Um, that's not actually Luke's phone number, my phone number. 00:40:25.307 --> 00:40:28.397 I didn't get emails, but you can text that. 00:40:28.883 --> 00:40:30.846 Uh, and as always, please. Yeah. 00:40:31.747 --> 00:40:38.187 Um, comment wherever you're listening to this YouTube, um, Apple, Spotify, wherever, 00:40:38.813 --> 00:40:46.467 um, like it, share it, um, read it, review it whenever you can do, uh, to help get 00:40:46.467 --> 00:40:48.107 some more exposure, send it to a friend. 00:40:48.796 --> 00:40:54.667 And I've used a couple of, in fact, in the last couple of weeks as we've been preparing 00:40:54.667 --> 00:41:01.187 to do baptisms here this coming Sunday, I've, the people that I'm meeting with about baptism, 00:41:01.571 --> 00:41:07.683 I've sent them all the episode that we did on, I think it's Water and the Spirit, say, 00:41:08.457 --> 00:41:10.645 hey, listen to this before we get together to talk. 00:41:11.563 --> 00:41:14.527 It's kind of a primer to our conversation. So do that. 00:41:14.527 --> 00:41:21.687 If there's a topic you feel like you can be beneficial to people in your life. 00:41:21.687 --> 00:41:24.238 Use them as big hammers to hit people over the head with, but... 00:41:24.240 --> 00:41:38.110 Music.