WEBVTT 00:00:03.855 --> 00:00:07.019 Google's creepy smart glasses are coming 00:00:07.278 --> 00:00:08.019 this fall. 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.243 The FBI wants to buy nationwide access to 00:00:12.304 --> 00:00:14.647 license plate readers and researchers 00:00:14.787 --> 00:00:17.609 wanted preschool teachers to wear cameras 00:00:17.931 --> 00:00:19.192 to train AI. 00:00:19.893 --> 00:00:21.714 More of this coming up soon on This 00:00:21.754 --> 00:00:23.417 Week in Privacy, fifty four. 00:00:44.487 --> 00:00:46.167 Welcome back to This Week in Privacy. 00:00:46.207 --> 00:00:48.308 This is our weekly series where we discuss 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:50.689 the latest updates with what we're working 00:00:50.808 --> 00:00:50.908 on, 00:00:50.948 --> 00:00:52.710 what's going on within the Privacy Guides 00:00:52.729 --> 00:00:53.210 community, 00:00:53.450 --> 00:00:55.810 and this week's top stories that we've 00:00:55.850 --> 00:00:58.750 seen in data privacy and cybersecurity. 00:00:59.191 --> 00:00:59.691 I'm Jonah, 00:00:59.890 --> 00:01:02.051 and with me this week is Jordan. 00:01:02.072 --> 00:01:03.892 How are you doing, Jordan? 00:01:03.932 --> 00:01:04.531 I'm doing great. 00:01:04.951 --> 00:01:06.453 Looking forward to jumping into some 00:01:06.492 --> 00:01:08.153 topics with you here this week. 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.042 Sweet. 00:01:11.721 --> 00:01:12.841 Well, why don't we move on? 00:01:13.783 --> 00:01:14.362 With that said, 00:01:14.382 --> 00:01:16.382 we can start out with some of the 00:01:16.423 --> 00:01:16.924 news here. 00:01:17.323 --> 00:01:18.483 Why don't you kick us off with our 00:01:18.524 --> 00:01:19.084 first story? 00:01:20.364 --> 00:01:21.045 Yeah, definitely. 00:01:21.125 --> 00:01:23.186 So this is kind of a... 00:01:24.647 --> 00:01:29.088 An update to an existing story, I guess, 00:01:29.629 --> 00:01:30.888 because if you don't remember, 00:01:31.430 --> 00:01:33.829 probably like I'm going to feel like ten 00:01:33.849 --> 00:01:34.390 years ago, 00:01:35.250 --> 00:01:38.010 Google already tried making smart glasses 00:01:38.450 --> 00:01:40.871 with Google Glass and it kind of flopped 00:01:40.971 --> 00:01:41.231 pretty, 00:01:41.391 --> 00:01:44.393 pretty terribly for obvious reasons, 00:01:44.472 --> 00:01:44.852 I guess. 00:01:45.272 --> 00:01:45.472 But 00:01:46.632 --> 00:01:49.234 Here's kind of what's happening. 00:01:49.736 --> 00:01:52.037 So this is the Google blog post here. 00:01:52.418 --> 00:01:54.599 Intelligent eyewear is coming this fall. 00:01:55.340 --> 00:01:57.081 We're revealing new frames from Gentle 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.503 Monster and Warby Parker, 00:01:58.602 --> 00:02:00.483 plus features that let you get directions, 00:02:00.524 --> 00:02:02.805 send text, snap photos, and more. 00:02:03.527 --> 00:02:04.927 I'm not going to read too much into 00:02:04.968 --> 00:02:07.590 this press release because a lot of things 00:02:07.609 --> 00:02:09.852 when it comes to AI products and... 00:02:11.253 --> 00:02:14.457 creepy technology like this that i'm not 00:02:14.497 --> 00:02:17.681 sure who asked for this um this is 00:02:17.722 --> 00:02:19.644 kind of a lot of marketing stuff here 00:02:20.305 --> 00:02:21.687 um i think the most important part to 00:02:21.706 --> 00:02:25.330 talk about with this is this is kind 00:02:25.390 --> 00:02:26.032 of uh 00:02:26.741 --> 00:02:29.443 a terrible trend because we already saw 00:02:29.462 --> 00:02:30.383 this with Meta. 00:02:30.723 --> 00:02:35.686 They released their Meta Ray Bans and Meta 00:02:36.706 --> 00:02:37.287 Glasses. 00:02:37.847 --> 00:02:39.768 And that was kind of, unfortunately, 00:02:39.788 --> 00:02:41.068 it was kind of a success. 00:02:41.870 --> 00:02:43.610 And, you know, maybe you're thinking, oh, 00:02:43.631 --> 00:02:44.931 this doesn't really sound that bad. 00:02:44.971 --> 00:02:47.193 Like, is this really an issue, right? 00:02:49.093 --> 00:02:50.935 And I think the most important part about 00:02:50.974 --> 00:02:54.817 this to think about is these products have 00:02:55.076 --> 00:02:55.978 cameras on them. 00:02:57.164 --> 00:03:00.046 They are also owned by two of the 00:03:00.086 --> 00:03:02.788 largest advertising companies in the 00:03:02.808 --> 00:03:05.031 world, Meta and Google. 00:03:05.070 --> 00:03:08.993 They collect probably the most amount of 00:03:09.033 --> 00:03:10.134 data in the entire world, 00:03:10.215 --> 00:03:12.135 probably the largest two data collectors 00:03:12.235 --> 00:03:12.496 ever. 00:03:13.176 --> 00:03:15.218 And you're strapping a camera to your 00:03:15.258 --> 00:03:15.618 face. 00:03:17.310 --> 00:03:17.430 Now, 00:03:17.469 --> 00:03:19.032 I know most people in our audience are 00:03:19.051 --> 00:03:19.912 probably like, yeah, 00:03:19.972 --> 00:03:21.674 I'm never doing that in my entire life. 00:03:21.954 --> 00:03:24.757 I'm never strapping a camera from Meta or 00:03:24.796 --> 00:03:25.638 Google to my face. 00:03:25.698 --> 00:03:26.758 But that's not the problem. 00:03:26.838 --> 00:03:29.540 The problem is that this is going to 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:31.483 be other people strapping a camera to 00:03:31.502 --> 00:03:32.022 their face. 00:03:32.663 --> 00:03:34.145 And especially in public, 00:03:34.305 --> 00:03:36.587 this is going to be a pretty big 00:03:36.647 --> 00:03:36.907 issue. 00:03:37.566 --> 00:03:40.207 And I also think this is another kind 00:03:40.247 --> 00:03:43.330 of awful move where these Ray-Ban meta 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:46.192 glasses weren't originally planning to be 00:03:46.472 --> 00:03:49.294 part of like this whole, you know, 00:03:49.493 --> 00:03:52.915 AI ecosystem, but now we're seeing with, 00:03:52.936 --> 00:03:54.997 you know, these new changes, 00:03:55.078 --> 00:03:57.639 these new glasses that meta and Google are 00:03:57.659 --> 00:03:58.080 releasing. 00:04:00.066 --> 00:04:04.106 they're integrating these AI features into 00:04:04.127 --> 00:04:04.766 these glasses. 00:04:04.866 --> 00:04:06.407 And they're basically like wholesale, 00:04:06.486 --> 00:04:08.707 like sending and collecting information 00:04:09.187 --> 00:04:11.867 and sending it to these AI models. 00:04:12.368 --> 00:04:15.788 And I do want to talk about this 00:04:15.808 --> 00:04:17.810 a little bit afterwards, 00:04:17.870 --> 00:04:19.110 but I kind of want to throw it 00:04:19.170 --> 00:04:20.889 over to Jonah a little bit. 00:04:20.949 --> 00:04:21.170 Like, 00:04:21.529 --> 00:04:22.790 how are you feeling about this 00:04:23.011 --> 00:04:23.451 announcement? 00:04:23.471 --> 00:04:24.190 Do you have any thoughts? 00:04:25.276 --> 00:04:25.555 Yeah, 00:04:26.016 --> 00:04:28.278 my initial thought was definitely kind of 00:04:28.317 --> 00:04:30.019 along the lines of what you just said. 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.341 I think it's very unfortunate that Google 00:04:33.882 --> 00:04:35.723 didn't learn their lesson from Google 00:04:35.742 --> 00:04:36.122 Glass. 00:04:36.182 --> 00:04:37.564 I think it was pretty clear at that 00:04:37.624 --> 00:04:39.285 time that this sort of thing was 00:04:39.865 --> 00:04:40.745 unacceptable. 00:04:40.786 --> 00:04:42.766 But now, yeah, 00:04:42.807 --> 00:04:46.069 it's just become so normalized by I think 00:04:46.108 --> 00:04:47.750 the first mainstream one was those 00:04:48.370 --> 00:04:49.411 Snapchat glasses, 00:04:49.471 --> 00:04:51.173 but especially the meta glasses. 00:04:51.252 --> 00:04:53.434 I think people are wearing those out in 00:04:53.454 --> 00:04:53.874 the wild. 00:04:56.475 --> 00:04:59.059 run into like Instagram stories and things 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:00.879 like that from regular people like they've 00:05:00.899 --> 00:05:03.422 kind of gotten mass adoption and they've 00:05:03.461 --> 00:05:06.504 really figured out that they need to 00:05:06.564 --> 00:05:10.728 market it as like this fashion item this 00:05:11.067 --> 00:05:12.670 partnership with these existing glasses 00:05:12.709 --> 00:05:14.771 companies and that is really how this is 00:05:15.411 --> 00:05:19.375 taken over which is just very unfortunate 00:05:19.875 --> 00:05:20.016 um 00:05:22.014 --> 00:05:22.473 Yeah, 00:05:22.615 --> 00:05:23.836 it's a shame that we went in this 00:05:23.875 --> 00:05:27.598 direction because I think I've said this 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:28.559 on the show before, 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:30.821 but definitely in some various threads, 00:05:30.901 --> 00:05:32.822 I'm not totally opposed to the idea of 00:05:32.882 --> 00:05:34.704 smart glasses in general. 00:05:34.824 --> 00:05:38.086 I wear a smart watch myself and something 00:05:38.127 --> 00:05:41.088 like a heads up display in your glasses 00:05:41.108 --> 00:05:42.831 would be super convenient, 00:05:43.951 --> 00:05:46.334 especially at the time where I used to 00:05:46.374 --> 00:05:47.293 wear glasses all the time, 00:05:47.314 --> 00:05:47.475 which 00:05:48.175 --> 00:05:49.836 i don't anymore so maybe it'd be less 00:05:49.877 --> 00:05:52.761 convenient now but i did want them before 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:56.625 and that they're not even doing an option 00:05:56.985 --> 00:05:59.288 uh to do that without like having these 00:05:59.327 --> 00:06:01.189 cameras strapped to your face i think is 00:06:01.550 --> 00:06:02.911 is a shame and 00:06:04.101 --> 00:06:06.603 I think that's kind of how these big 00:06:06.863 --> 00:06:09.666 tech companies like Google operate. 00:06:09.706 --> 00:06:12.629 They kind of just take away any choice 00:06:13.029 --> 00:06:14.370 that you have so you have to go 00:06:14.411 --> 00:06:18.053 with the version of the product that they 00:06:18.093 --> 00:06:21.036 want you to have because competition is 00:06:21.057 --> 00:06:21.896 kind of eliminated. 00:06:22.918 --> 00:06:24.339 We've seen this in the smartphone space 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:25.740 where there's only a few major players 00:06:25.781 --> 00:06:25.880 now. 00:06:25.901 --> 00:06:27.721 There used to be a ton of smartphone 00:06:27.742 --> 00:06:30.103 manufacturers like ten years ago and now 00:06:30.124 --> 00:06:31.064 those are gone and I think 00:06:33.228 --> 00:06:33.408 Yeah, 00:06:33.548 --> 00:06:35.069 everything is just kind of standardizing 00:06:35.189 --> 00:06:39.293 on this one design, which is annoying. 00:06:39.334 --> 00:06:39.553 Yeah, 00:06:39.634 --> 00:06:41.276 it is kind of frustrating as well as 00:06:41.315 --> 00:06:41.576 like, 00:06:41.797 --> 00:06:45.459 I think the eyewear industry has also kind 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.041 of been profiting from this, right? 00:06:47.081 --> 00:06:47.583 Because... 00:06:48.641 --> 00:06:51.562 I think a lot of places that sell 00:06:51.581 --> 00:06:52.163 glasses, 00:06:52.283 --> 00:06:55.723 they sell the glasses at like a regular 00:06:55.783 --> 00:06:56.064 store. 00:06:56.144 --> 00:06:57.524 Like this isn't something that you can 00:06:57.564 --> 00:07:00.627 just like only get on like an electronic 00:07:00.666 --> 00:07:01.807 store or something like that. 00:07:01.846 --> 00:07:04.187 It's literally like next to the standard 00:07:04.208 --> 00:07:04.767 glasses. 00:07:04.788 --> 00:07:07.269 So I think it becomes kind of normalized 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:08.529 through that as well, definitely. 00:07:08.970 --> 00:07:11.071 I definitely saw them at the Sunglass Hut 00:07:11.752 --> 00:07:12.612 stand at Macy's. 00:07:12.632 --> 00:07:14.632 They're just meta glasses next to the 00:07:14.653 --> 00:07:15.432 Ray-Ban glasses. 00:07:15.473 --> 00:07:16.374 It's all the same stuff. 00:07:16.413 --> 00:07:16.733 They just... 00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:22.723 sell them all together um yeah I mean 00:07:22.803 --> 00:07:24.886 I feel like the price is also kind 00:07:24.906 --> 00:07:26.927 of ridiculously low but I think also 00:07:26.968 --> 00:07:28.988 that's also kind of done by the fact 00:07:29.028 --> 00:07:32.351 that these are like powered by collecting 00:07:32.411 --> 00:07:34.192 a crap ton of information so it's probably 00:07:34.273 --> 00:07:37.136 subsidizing the cost a little bit yeah I 00:07:37.196 --> 00:07:38.976 actually don't even know how much these 00:07:39.016 --> 00:07:40.619 cost I've never I've never looked into it 00:07:40.658 --> 00:07:42.379 personally that is interesting though 00:07:43.762 --> 00:07:45.122 They are not expensive. 00:07:45.202 --> 00:07:46.583 They're definitely less than a thousand 00:07:46.622 --> 00:07:46.983 dollars. 00:07:47.043 --> 00:07:49.564 So I feel like that's, I mean, 00:07:49.704 --> 00:07:51.204 I feel like Ray-Bans is definitely a 00:07:51.245 --> 00:07:51.884 cheaper brand. 00:07:51.904 --> 00:07:53.005 I've never heard of these, 00:07:54.065 --> 00:07:56.206 like I've never heard of Gentle Monster or 00:07:58.067 --> 00:08:01.088 that other one, Warby Parker, but I mean, 00:08:02.470 --> 00:08:05.110 maybe they're. 00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:08.331 Warby Parker is pretty big in the like 00:08:08.451 --> 00:08:10.512 online glasses area. 00:08:10.612 --> 00:08:11.994 I think you would see it recommended a 00:08:12.053 --> 00:08:12.314 lot. 00:08:13.144 --> 00:08:14.807 on like Reddit and stuff as a cheaper 00:08:14.867 --> 00:08:16.627 option to buy your glasses in the store 00:08:16.668 --> 00:08:19.689 because I don't know how it works around 00:08:19.750 --> 00:08:21.851 the world but like at a glasses store 00:08:21.872 --> 00:08:24.072 here you can pay three hundred dollars for 00:08:24.112 --> 00:08:26.055 some frames or something and then not to 00:08:26.074 --> 00:08:27.516 mention the lenses but if you order it 00:08:27.576 --> 00:08:29.637 online from that they're like thirty 00:08:29.656 --> 00:08:31.678 dollars or something I don't know so I 00:08:31.699 --> 00:08:33.740 think that's why they're popular I don't 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:35.741 know if they're super known for being like 00:08:36.881 --> 00:08:39.563 a trendsetter in style or anything maybe 00:08:39.604 --> 00:08:40.884 they are though maybe people are super 00:08:40.924 --> 00:08:41.225 into them 00:08:43.236 --> 00:08:44.456 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. 00:08:44.738 --> 00:08:46.697 I also want to kind of talk about 00:08:46.857 --> 00:08:47.158 this. 00:08:47.177 --> 00:08:47.999 I don't know if we... 00:08:48.658 --> 00:08:50.480 There's another story that kind of follows 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.340 this up because I feel like some people 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:54.421 might be like, oh, this is... Yeah, 00:08:54.441 --> 00:08:55.620 this is concerning, but, like, 00:08:56.121 --> 00:08:57.942 is there any proof that these glasses are 00:08:57.961 --> 00:08:59.202 collecting ridiculous amounts of 00:08:59.222 --> 00:09:00.123 information on people? 00:09:00.202 --> 00:09:04.625 Are they actually as creepy as, like, 00:09:04.784 --> 00:09:05.225 are we just... 00:09:06.265 --> 00:09:08.508 making this up like no we're not making 00:09:08.548 --> 00:09:11.049 this up um so here's a story from 00:09:11.789 --> 00:09:15.712 the bbc uh and basically a regulator has 00:09:15.753 --> 00:09:17.914 contacted meta over workers watching 00:09:17.995 --> 00:09:21.758 intimate ai glasses videos so basically 00:09:21.778 --> 00:09:25.500 there's a uk data watchdog has written to 00:09:25.539 --> 00:09:28.221 meta following a concerning report 00:09:28.423 --> 00:09:30.423 claiming outsourced workers were able to 00:09:30.464 --> 00:09:32.445 view sensitive content filmed by the 00:09:32.485 --> 00:09:35.687 company's ai smart glasses and 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:39.421 it's a little bit concerning. 00:09:39.841 --> 00:09:40.221 So they, 00:09:40.522 --> 00:09:42.063 they were saying that they were even 00:09:42.124 --> 00:09:42.703 seeing, you know, 00:09:44.365 --> 00:09:46.488 living from living rooms to naked bodies, 00:09:47.509 --> 00:09:47.769 you know, 00:09:47.808 --> 00:09:49.571 people on the toilet and stuff like that. 00:09:49.630 --> 00:09:50.071 This is, 00:09:50.932 --> 00:09:56.076 this is experiences and things that, 00:09:56.697 --> 00:09:56.957 you know, 00:09:56.998 --> 00:09:59.360 a lot of people assume is private and 00:09:59.379 --> 00:10:00.740 that is like kind of sacred, 00:10:01.221 --> 00:10:02.283 which is being sent to these 00:10:03.927 --> 00:10:04.368 companies. 00:10:04.508 --> 00:10:06.730 And I guess we don't know whether this 00:10:06.769 --> 00:10:08.470 is going to actually be the case with 00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:09.191 the Google ones, 00:10:09.250 --> 00:10:12.032 but I think given Google's track record of 00:10:12.152 --> 00:10:15.813 basically wherever possible sending 00:10:15.874 --> 00:10:18.416 information to Google's like a Gemini 00:10:18.615 --> 00:10:19.576 service, I mean, 00:10:19.596 --> 00:10:20.437 that's how they make money. 00:10:20.537 --> 00:10:20.996 That's like, 00:10:21.297 --> 00:10:23.798 that's the whole AI industry at the 00:10:25.629 --> 00:10:28.051 it's kind of unfortunate that, you know, 00:10:28.071 --> 00:10:31.714 there's this normalization of this 00:10:31.754 --> 00:10:33.595 technology when we already know that this 00:10:33.654 --> 00:10:37.979 technology is like completely, uh, 00:10:38.099 --> 00:10:39.620 it doesn't have privacy built in. 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.081 And I think the normalization of this is 00:10:42.121 --> 00:10:44.163 we're basically going to see every 00:10:44.203 --> 00:10:45.644 country, like no matter, 00:10:45.684 --> 00:10:47.166 like a lot of people say things like, 00:10:47.225 --> 00:10:47.666 Oh, you know, 00:10:47.706 --> 00:10:49.748 China has like a million cameras and like, 00:10:49.788 --> 00:10:49.988 you know, 00:10:50.028 --> 00:10:51.328 these cities in the U S they've got 00:10:51.369 --> 00:10:52.710 cameras on every single corner. 00:10:53.471 --> 00:10:53.591 Um, 00:10:54.423 --> 00:10:56.683 Now there's going to be cameras literally 00:10:56.803 --> 00:10:57.664 everywhere. 00:10:57.764 --> 00:10:59.806 Every single person is going to be having 00:11:00.287 --> 00:11:03.509 these cameras always on at all times. 00:11:03.528 --> 00:11:04.908 There's going to be cameras everywhere. 00:11:07.071 --> 00:11:08.171 And I think these are a little bit 00:11:08.211 --> 00:11:10.352 more concerning compared to a smartphone 00:11:11.692 --> 00:11:14.654 because the camera in your pocket or in 00:11:14.695 --> 00:11:15.655 your bag is... 00:11:17.129 --> 00:11:18.370 You know, it's not pointing at someone. 00:11:18.431 --> 00:11:20.653 It's not, like, primed, 00:11:20.773 --> 00:11:23.355 ready to capture content at all times. 00:11:23.835 --> 00:11:26.857 So I think this is definitely more creepy. 00:11:27.217 --> 00:11:28.639 I think it's definitely also kind of 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.760 breaking the consent model here as well. 00:11:30.841 --> 00:11:31.120 Like, 00:11:32.221 --> 00:11:33.903 if you're talking to someone who's wearing 00:11:33.923 --> 00:11:35.303 these, like, 00:11:35.624 --> 00:11:37.605 do you know whether they're recording you? 00:11:37.645 --> 00:11:39.167 Do you know if they're sending your face 00:11:39.206 --> 00:11:40.827 to some, like, AI company? 00:11:40.889 --> 00:11:42.649 Like, no, you don't. 00:11:43.591 --> 00:11:44.530 It's kind of creepy. 00:11:46.212 --> 00:11:46.393 So... 00:11:46.885 --> 00:11:48.807 yeah that was kind of the point i 00:11:48.826 --> 00:11:50.187 wanted to bring up as well like not 00:11:50.347 --> 00:11:52.669 only do we not know what these are 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:55.971 collecting um or like what extent these 00:11:56.011 --> 00:11:58.253 are always recording but you also can't 00:11:58.293 --> 00:11:59.734 know not you not only can you not 00:11:59.774 --> 00:12:01.475 know like what these tech companies are 00:12:01.495 --> 00:12:04.216 doing but um you can't really tell like 00:12:04.256 --> 00:12:05.857 if other people just around you are 00:12:05.918 --> 00:12:07.219 recording them right now and if you look 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:10.561 at the images from uh this google blog 00:12:10.961 --> 00:12:13.964 they are um really 00:12:14.783 --> 00:12:16.544 hidden i think the fact that they have 00:12:16.585 --> 00:12:18.586 cameras i literally had to when i read 00:12:18.625 --> 00:12:19.547 this for the first time i had to 00:12:19.606 --> 00:12:22.288 zoom in really on this gentle monster 00:12:22.327 --> 00:12:24.749 thing to see on on those frames to 00:12:24.788 --> 00:12:26.230 see if they had cameras at all you 00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:28.971 can barely tell uh there's an outline of 00:12:29.011 --> 00:12:31.852 a camera when you zoom way in but 00:12:31.932 --> 00:12:33.774 i was wondering if they were making some 00:12:33.813 --> 00:12:36.275 models without cameras that only um i 00:12:36.296 --> 00:12:37.917 don't know if these i think they said 00:12:37.976 --> 00:12:39.397 they have heads-up displays but i know 00:12:39.417 --> 00:12:40.018 they also like 00:12:40.618 --> 00:12:41.817 talk to you in your ear. 00:12:42.778 --> 00:12:43.578 Yeah, those ones. 00:12:43.938 --> 00:12:45.219 I don't know if you can zoom in 00:12:45.278 --> 00:12:46.299 on that easily or not. 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:47.620 But it's, 00:12:48.259 --> 00:12:51.000 you really have to look closely to to 00:12:51.041 --> 00:12:51.922 see those cameras. 00:12:52.121 --> 00:12:54.682 And I think that that's the thing that 00:12:55.023 --> 00:12:59.283 is most concerning to me because yeah, 00:12:59.344 --> 00:13:00.344 it could just I mean, 00:13:00.423 --> 00:13:02.904 it just really normalizes all of this in 00:13:03.144 --> 00:13:04.625 in modern society that you don't really 00:13:04.645 --> 00:13:05.885 have any privacy when you 00:13:06.908 --> 00:13:10.809 go outside in public spaces anymore. 00:13:11.811 --> 00:13:13.270 A lot of people would argue you probably 00:13:13.291 --> 00:13:15.292 didn't have privacy in these public spaces 00:13:15.971 --> 00:13:16.572 before. 00:13:16.971 --> 00:13:19.432 But I think that the dynamics are a 00:13:19.452 --> 00:13:23.594 bit different because cameras used to be 00:13:23.614 --> 00:13:25.715 just less ubiquitous in general. 00:13:26.294 --> 00:13:27.174 They used to be bigger, 00:13:27.215 --> 00:13:28.796 so it was more obvious that you were 00:13:28.816 --> 00:13:29.275 taking pictures. 00:13:29.316 --> 00:13:30.115 Or even now, 00:13:30.135 --> 00:13:32.437 if you hold up your phone, 00:13:32.476 --> 00:13:34.878 you can tell if someone is trying to 00:13:34.998 --> 00:13:35.798 take a picture of you. 00:13:36.619 --> 00:13:40.989 And it's just very, 00:13:41.129 --> 00:13:44.275 very different now because now you can't 00:13:44.336 --> 00:13:44.996 tell any of that. 00:13:45.037 --> 00:13:46.139 It's very unobvious. 00:13:48.638 --> 00:13:49.097 yeah, 00:13:49.398 --> 00:13:52.559 I am not a fan of this development 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:53.240 one bit. 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:56.981 Obviously, besides the camera issue, 00:13:58.142 --> 00:14:00.883 these are really built around Google 00:14:00.903 --> 00:14:01.442 Assistant, 00:14:02.264 --> 00:14:05.125 like all of these smart glasses will be 00:14:05.284 --> 00:14:07.426 with their respective voice vendors. 00:14:08.105 --> 00:14:09.567 All of these big tech companies really 00:14:09.586 --> 00:14:12.288 want to push AI and having AI in 00:14:12.327 --> 00:14:14.989 your ear at all times as the as 00:14:15.068 --> 00:14:15.929 the future right. 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:16.830 And 00:14:20.224 --> 00:14:20.384 I mean, 00:14:20.423 --> 00:14:22.085 we've talked about AI stuff on here in 00:14:22.105 --> 00:14:22.566 the past, 00:14:22.686 --> 00:14:25.989 but it's just concerning to me how much 00:14:26.168 --> 00:14:29.471 data that people are giving up to these 00:14:29.511 --> 00:14:32.714 voice assistants and other AI chat tools. 00:14:33.495 --> 00:14:36.898 We've talked about AI chats misleading 00:14:36.937 --> 00:14:37.177 people. 00:14:37.217 --> 00:14:40.541 We've talked about how AI doesn't protect 00:14:40.561 --> 00:14:41.861 your data because it doesn't have things 00:14:41.902 --> 00:14:43.504 like end-to-end encryption, 00:14:43.724 --> 00:14:44.583 and they're making it... 00:14:45.445 --> 00:14:47.365 Not only is it was already hard to 00:14:47.404 --> 00:14:48.346 run AI locally, 00:14:48.385 --> 00:14:50.285 now it's practically impossible because 00:14:50.905 --> 00:14:53.386 who can afford the hardware these days 00:14:54.006 --> 00:14:55.927 because of these AI companies buying all 00:14:55.966 --> 00:14:58.827 the computers on the market so us mere 00:14:58.868 --> 00:15:00.447 mortals can't get one anymore. 00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:06.969 It's all just not great, 00:15:07.028 --> 00:15:08.830 I guess is the best way to put 00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:08.950 it. 00:15:10.836 --> 00:15:12.177 Yeah, it's a shame. 00:15:12.256 --> 00:15:15.938 A lot of people in the chat hear 00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:16.399 about this. 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:17.120 I like this comment. 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:19.481 We need proton face masks. 00:15:21.222 --> 00:15:22.443 You know, that'd be funny. 00:15:23.323 --> 00:15:25.025 I wonder if there will be some sort 00:15:25.086 --> 00:15:27.226 of product that comes out. 00:15:27.267 --> 00:15:28.648 I know we've seen it with facial 00:15:28.687 --> 00:15:29.849 recognition stuff in the past, 00:15:29.869 --> 00:15:31.429 kind of adversarial stuff. 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:33.350 things you can wear to mess with facial 00:15:33.390 --> 00:15:35.291 recognition or cameras or whatever. 00:15:35.410 --> 00:15:36.211 I don't know if there will be a 00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:40.633 good way to kind of avoid being recorded 00:15:40.653 --> 00:15:41.212 by these things. 00:15:41.312 --> 00:15:43.734 But yeah, 00:15:44.114 --> 00:15:45.653 that would certainly be an interesting 00:15:45.693 --> 00:15:46.033 product. 00:15:46.774 --> 00:15:49.254 I wouldn't say I'd recommend Proton get 00:15:49.315 --> 00:15:49.754 into it, 00:15:49.855 --> 00:15:52.235 but they make a lot of random things 00:15:52.255 --> 00:15:56.057 sometimes, so you never know. 00:15:56.157 --> 00:15:56.397 Yeah, 00:15:56.717 --> 00:15:58.118 I think the last thing we need is 00:15:58.158 --> 00:15:59.557 another Proton product. 00:16:00.038 --> 00:16:00.619 Yeah, I know. 00:16:03.005 --> 00:16:03.927 Uh, no, but I agree. 00:16:04.027 --> 00:16:05.427 I agree with everything you said. 00:16:05.668 --> 00:16:08.429 Um, but I do think like, you know, 00:16:08.510 --> 00:16:11.732 I think a lot of people are purposely 00:16:12.212 --> 00:16:13.693 saying like, Oh no, you know, 00:16:13.754 --> 00:16:14.975 I'm not like using it. 00:16:15.635 --> 00:16:16.777 Like it's a cool product. 00:16:16.817 --> 00:16:17.076 And like, 00:16:17.157 --> 00:16:18.758 I just want to be able to take 00:16:18.798 --> 00:16:19.798 pictures everywhere. 00:16:20.219 --> 00:16:21.740 Um, but I think a 00:16:24.361 --> 00:16:26.443 Just because you want Meta to see 00:16:26.565 --> 00:16:28.385 everything that you see constantly, 00:16:28.547 --> 00:16:33.370 not everyone else wants that. 00:16:33.510 --> 00:16:36.114 I understand the comment when you talk 00:16:36.153 --> 00:16:38.135 about privacy in public, 00:16:38.355 --> 00:16:42.019 but I feel like it's taking a little 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:42.240 bit... 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:44.828 in a strange direction. 00:16:44.869 --> 00:16:47.629 Like just because you don't have privacy 00:16:47.649 --> 00:16:48.931 in public doesn't mean you should have 00:16:48.990 --> 00:16:51.471 cameras literally everywhere and everyone 00:16:51.491 --> 00:16:52.851 with one strap to their face. 00:16:52.912 --> 00:16:57.234 Like, yeah, I think also that's kind of, 00:16:58.094 --> 00:16:59.355 it's kind of changed. 00:16:59.615 --> 00:17:01.855 I feel like the aspect of that has 00:17:01.895 --> 00:17:03.355 changed now that we have cameras 00:17:03.395 --> 00:17:03.836 everywhere. 00:17:03.996 --> 00:17:05.297 Maybe that would have been true like, 00:17:05.676 --> 00:17:06.698 you know, 00:17:06.718 --> 00:17:07.678 back when people had 00:17:09.346 --> 00:17:10.885 it was hard to take pictures of people 00:17:10.967 --> 00:17:12.747 and hard to do that sort of stuff. 00:17:12.767 --> 00:17:14.086 But now everyone's got a camera, 00:17:14.647 --> 00:17:16.087 everyone's got, uh, 00:17:17.409 --> 00:17:18.909 easy ways to take pictures of people. 00:17:19.288 --> 00:17:21.029 Um, I also think that these, 00:17:21.410 --> 00:17:22.049 I'm not sure, 00:17:22.130 --> 00:17:23.891 like they didn't actually show it in the 00:17:23.931 --> 00:17:24.310 demo. 00:17:24.391 --> 00:17:26.490 Like I watched the demo to see exactly 00:17:26.510 --> 00:17:27.152 how these work. 00:17:27.271 --> 00:17:28.531 And you did mention a little bit, 00:17:28.551 --> 00:17:29.632 like there's, 00:17:29.652 --> 00:17:31.292 there is ones with a display and there's 00:17:31.413 --> 00:17:32.532 ones without a display. 00:17:32.792 --> 00:17:33.053 So there's, 00:17:33.133 --> 00:17:34.834 there's different things going on there. 00:17:34.854 --> 00:17:36.494 It's the same as, um, meta's ones. 00:17:36.914 --> 00:17:37.775 Um, but, 00:17:39.372 --> 00:17:41.113 They're also trying to like if you watched 00:17:41.333 --> 00:17:44.935 last week's Android IO thing, 00:17:45.537 --> 00:17:47.397 they're kind of pivoting towards like, 00:17:47.738 --> 00:17:48.097 you know, 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.461 using these connected devices instead of 00:17:52.481 --> 00:17:53.001 your phone. 00:17:53.182 --> 00:17:55.182 Like one of the demos they showed was 00:17:55.223 --> 00:17:57.884 like ordering something on DoorDash and it 00:17:57.924 --> 00:18:00.287 was basically Gemini was doing the entire 00:18:00.326 --> 00:18:01.188 process for you. 00:18:02.244 --> 00:18:03.625 Um, 00:18:03.686 --> 00:18:05.268 and I think that's just another thing 00:18:05.307 --> 00:18:06.469 where it's like, wow, 00:18:07.269 --> 00:18:08.830 think about all the information that 00:18:09.010 --> 00:18:10.212 Gemini is processing. 00:18:10.232 --> 00:18:12.074 Like it's processing your location, 00:18:12.094 --> 00:18:13.976 it's processing your order, 00:18:14.016 --> 00:18:16.818 it's processing like so many things at the 00:18:16.838 --> 00:18:17.398 same time. 00:18:17.439 --> 00:18:19.500 And it's all just like getting heaped into 00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:20.102 this product. 00:18:20.382 --> 00:18:20.561 Um, 00:18:20.682 --> 00:18:23.183 I don't think like it doesn't protect 00:18:23.785 --> 00:18:24.204 anything. 00:18:24.244 --> 00:18:24.685 Like there's 00:18:25.298 --> 00:18:27.220 It's basically just sitting clear text on 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:29.041 Google servers, which, you know, 00:18:29.061 --> 00:18:31.022 maybe Google has good security now, but, 00:18:31.202 --> 00:18:32.584 you know, 00:18:32.683 --> 00:18:33.984 there's always a possibility of it being 00:18:34.025 --> 00:18:34.445 breached. 00:18:34.806 --> 00:18:38.729 And like we saw with the regulator talking 00:18:38.749 --> 00:18:40.109 about meta, like, you know, 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:41.851 who gets access to this data? 00:18:41.990 --> 00:18:42.151 Like, 00:18:42.211 --> 00:18:43.491 is it going to be outsourced to these 00:18:43.531 --> 00:18:44.393 workers overseas? 00:18:44.833 --> 00:18:45.432 And even then, 00:18:45.574 --> 00:18:47.075 I feel like just storing that data is 00:18:47.134 --> 00:18:48.375 also kind of concerning, too. 00:18:48.715 --> 00:18:48.836 Yeah. 00:18:50.010 --> 00:18:50.230 you know, 00:18:50.351 --> 00:18:52.413 all these intimate things that you're 00:18:52.432 --> 00:18:52.773 doing. 00:18:52.854 --> 00:18:53.054 Like, 00:18:53.294 --> 00:18:54.976 does that really need to exist on Google 00:18:54.996 --> 00:18:55.455 servers? 00:18:55.576 --> 00:18:56.277 Probably not. 00:18:56.336 --> 00:18:57.258 I would argue not. 00:18:57.498 --> 00:19:05.045 Yeah. 00:19:05.105 --> 00:19:05.744 It's strange. 00:19:06.266 --> 00:19:09.208 I saw we got a comment from Anonymous 00:19:09.449 --> 00:19:09.749 in English. 00:19:10.907 --> 00:19:13.970 in the chat saying that they saw a 00:19:14.009 --> 00:19:15.892 good comment about privacy in public 00:19:15.932 --> 00:19:16.491 spaces. 00:19:16.873 --> 00:19:18.594 I tried to open this link. 00:19:18.933 --> 00:19:21.175 I'm using brave browser for the screen 00:19:21.195 --> 00:19:22.936 sharing right now and apparently lobsters 00:19:23.617 --> 00:19:25.859 has blocked the brave browser so I can't 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:27.901 access it but I'll assume it's good and 00:19:27.941 --> 00:19:31.003 if it's related to this other comment you 00:19:31.084 --> 00:19:33.965 sent how it's not about the lack of 00:19:34.006 --> 00:19:35.067 privacy it's 00:19:36.915 --> 00:19:39.939 about it being societally inappropriate to 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:41.401 eavesdrop like that. 00:19:41.942 --> 00:19:43.423 I totally agree, 00:19:43.442 --> 00:19:45.785 and I think a lot of our society 00:19:45.806 --> 00:19:49.148 could take a lesson from the Japanese in 00:19:49.169 --> 00:19:49.750 this regard. 00:19:50.549 --> 00:19:51.191 In Japan, 00:19:51.530 --> 00:19:55.015 they notoriously have a camera feature on 00:19:55.035 --> 00:19:56.656 their phone, a law, really, 00:19:56.696 --> 00:19:56.876 that 00:19:57.551 --> 00:20:00.153 requires all their phones to make a very 00:20:00.252 --> 00:20:02.574 obvious sound when you're taking a 00:20:02.594 --> 00:20:02.973 picture. 00:20:03.594 --> 00:20:05.375 And I think that that's the sort of 00:20:05.434 --> 00:20:08.895 thing that would not be unwelcome, 00:20:08.935 --> 00:20:09.476 in my opinion, 00:20:09.516 --> 00:20:13.637 because it's exactly about making it 00:20:13.718 --> 00:20:17.578 societally inappropriate to do these 00:20:17.618 --> 00:20:19.940 privacy violations in public. 00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:23.101 I think if you're taking a picture of... 00:20:24.436 --> 00:20:26.257 anyone who wants you to take a picture 00:20:26.277 --> 00:20:26.458 of them, 00:20:26.498 --> 00:20:27.637 they're not going to mind the sound at 00:20:27.698 --> 00:20:27.877 all. 00:20:28.798 --> 00:20:29.857 And for everyone else, 00:20:30.258 --> 00:20:32.358 you want to have that notification, 00:20:32.419 --> 00:20:32.959 I would imagine. 00:20:32.999 --> 00:20:37.160 So that's the sort of thing where Japan 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.740 clearly saw a problem in society and 00:20:41.260 --> 00:20:41.721 solved it. 00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:44.981 And I think we could probably do something 00:20:45.001 --> 00:20:46.282 to that effect as well. 00:20:46.522 --> 00:20:46.962 Will we? 00:20:47.623 --> 00:20:50.844 I doubt it, but you can always, 00:20:50.943 --> 00:20:51.544 you can always hope. 00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:53.911 I also think, no, 00:20:53.990 --> 00:20:55.291 I think that's an interesting point to 00:20:55.332 --> 00:20:56.932 bring up because, you know, 00:20:57.012 --> 00:20:59.154 I think they have tried to like dissuade 00:20:59.194 --> 00:21:00.695 people a little bit by saying like, no, 00:21:00.715 --> 00:21:03.178 no, no, it has a notification light. 00:21:03.439 --> 00:21:05.140 Like it has a little light on it 00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:06.421 that shows that it's recording. 00:21:07.402 --> 00:21:08.462 And people have already, 00:21:08.742 --> 00:21:10.423 people are modding their glasses to get 00:21:10.463 --> 00:21:10.845 rid of that. 00:21:10.924 --> 00:21:12.425 People are offering that as a service. 00:21:12.465 --> 00:21:12.865 They're like, 00:21:13.426 --> 00:21:15.288 I don't want people to know I'm recording 00:21:15.307 --> 00:21:15.468 them. 00:21:15.488 --> 00:21:17.930 Like it's something that people are 00:21:18.151 --> 00:21:19.612 actively looking to, 00:21:21.403 --> 00:21:22.983 disable, right? 00:21:23.003 --> 00:21:24.804 Maybe there's also a camera sound, 00:21:24.844 --> 00:21:26.625 you know, oh, we just removed the speaker. 00:21:26.825 --> 00:21:27.204 Sorry. 00:21:29.125 --> 00:21:32.247 So, yeah, I mean, of course, 00:21:32.287 --> 00:21:33.227 these mods exist, 00:21:33.267 --> 00:21:36.107 because it's an asshole move to do that 00:21:36.147 --> 00:21:38.249 with random people who don't consent to 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:38.429 that. 00:21:38.489 --> 00:21:38.888 I mean, we, 00:21:39.368 --> 00:21:40.970 this is exactly what we learned with 00:21:41.410 --> 00:21:42.289 Google Glass, 00:21:42.769 --> 00:21:44.131 which is that nobody likes it. 00:21:45.648 --> 00:21:47.570 It's still the case that nobody really 00:21:47.611 --> 00:21:49.251 likes to have cameras all up in their 00:21:49.291 --> 00:21:49.613 face. 00:21:50.212 --> 00:21:52.714 But what these tech companies are doing is 00:21:52.875 --> 00:21:53.935 not only normalizing it, 00:21:53.955 --> 00:21:57.439 but making it very easy and pretty hidden 00:21:58.059 --> 00:21:58.621 to do so. 00:21:59.361 --> 00:21:59.520 I. 00:22:01.663 --> 00:22:04.204 I don't know what these I don't I 00:22:04.224 --> 00:22:06.027 don't know what these glasses look like 00:22:06.067 --> 00:22:07.387 specifically when they're recording, 00:22:07.407 --> 00:22:08.449 because I don't think they have any 00:22:09.509 --> 00:22:12.272 pictures of an indicator or anything that 00:22:12.333 --> 00:22:12.692 I've seen. 00:22:13.955 --> 00:22:15.380 Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.528 but I would not be surprised if these 00:22:18.750 --> 00:22:19.853 tech companies are 00:22:21.766 --> 00:22:23.846 probably making it intentionally easy to 00:22:23.906 --> 00:22:26.107 mod I would imagine a speaker would be 00:22:26.667 --> 00:22:28.269 more difficult I mean you can always 00:22:28.328 --> 00:22:30.210 remove it but a camera you don't even 00:22:30.269 --> 00:22:32.010 have to you don't have to affect the 00:22:32.771 --> 00:22:34.231 camera hardware I mean the glasses 00:22:34.271 --> 00:22:36.854 hardware at all because you can just paint 00:22:36.933 --> 00:22:38.193 over it or put a piece of tape 00:22:38.233 --> 00:22:41.556 on it right it's not that hard to 00:22:41.596 --> 00:22:44.096 block light sound is a little bit more 00:22:44.156 --> 00:22:47.398 tricky but yeah it's 00:22:49.969 --> 00:22:52.011 It's strange that we're kind of accepting 00:22:52.051 --> 00:22:52.252 this, 00:22:52.292 --> 00:22:55.438 but I think Meta has done a pretty 00:22:55.518 --> 00:22:58.742 good job at advancing their agenda in this 00:22:58.923 --> 00:23:03.088 regard, unfortunately. 00:23:03.128 --> 00:23:04.191 Yeah, definitely. 00:23:05.426 --> 00:23:06.428 I don't really think I have any more 00:23:06.448 --> 00:23:06.887 to add, 00:23:06.988 --> 00:23:10.130 but there was a comment here from 00:23:10.611 --> 00:23:13.452 Anonymous, and they said, 00:23:13.992 --> 00:23:15.594 is there a single Google product that 00:23:15.653 --> 00:23:18.655 doesn't violate your privacy by default? 00:23:19.017 --> 00:23:20.397 I'm just going to stop there with your 00:23:20.438 --> 00:23:21.157 question. 00:23:21.357 --> 00:23:23.680 I think no, no, there's not. 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.202 I think the fact that you need a 00:23:27.262 --> 00:23:29.124 Google account to use a lot of these 00:23:29.144 --> 00:23:30.944 services is kind of the issue, right? 00:23:31.085 --> 00:23:32.445 I feel like a lot of this stuff 00:23:32.465 --> 00:23:34.068 would be probably – 00:23:34.162 --> 00:23:36.884 okay right if it was like not connected 00:23:36.923 --> 00:23:38.703 to a google account but i think that's 00:23:38.743 --> 00:23:40.265 kind of how they make money right like 00:23:40.305 --> 00:23:43.146 they have this central account that's 00:23:43.186 --> 00:23:44.867 connected to all these services that are 00:23:44.887 --> 00:23:46.568 all collecting information about you to 00:23:46.588 --> 00:23:49.829 make better choices for advertising all 00:23:49.849 --> 00:23:53.491 that sort of stuff um i mean i 00:23:53.511 --> 00:23:55.613 can't really think of anything off the top 00:23:55.633 --> 00:23:56.874 of my head but maybe there is and 00:23:56.913 --> 00:24:00.375 i'm not thinking right well no i totally 00:24:00.615 --> 00:24:02.277 agree personally because 00:24:03.836 --> 00:24:04.037 I mean, 00:24:04.076 --> 00:24:06.958 people will point out pretty often if we 00:24:06.998 --> 00:24:08.259 talk about any Google stuff, 00:24:08.278 --> 00:24:10.599 how they do have some products which are 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.300 private or secure or only run locally. 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:16.741 And Google does put in some effort to 00:24:16.781 --> 00:24:18.702 make some of these features local. 00:24:18.722 --> 00:24:20.123 So you could look at like on the 00:24:20.182 --> 00:24:21.503 Pixel phones, for example, 00:24:21.544 --> 00:24:23.825 they have a song recognition feature on 00:24:23.845 --> 00:24:27.306 the lock screen and that runs completely 00:24:27.365 --> 00:24:28.165 locally on your device. 00:24:28.185 --> 00:24:29.646 So it's not like it's streaming locally. 00:24:29.946 --> 00:24:31.929 all of the music that you're listening to 00:24:31.949 --> 00:24:33.810 to Google or everything going on around 00:24:33.830 --> 00:24:35.031 you or whatever. 00:24:35.711 --> 00:24:37.253 And there's little features like that. 00:24:37.294 --> 00:24:40.317 You can enable end to end encryption of 00:24:40.356 --> 00:24:43.539 your sync in Google Chrome to protect your 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:46.823 browsing data and passwords and history 00:24:46.843 --> 00:24:47.242 and whatever. 00:24:48.911 --> 00:24:50.231 So little stuff like that, 00:24:51.192 --> 00:24:51.692 people will say, 00:24:51.853 --> 00:24:53.535 that does exist so they can make private 00:24:53.555 --> 00:24:54.395 and secure software. 00:24:54.435 --> 00:24:57.218 But the reality is all of that stuff 00:24:57.258 --> 00:24:58.098 that they're making, 00:24:58.919 --> 00:25:00.520 they're kind of side projects and they 00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:04.443 really exist for the purpose of getting 00:25:04.503 --> 00:25:06.945 you to use all of these other Google 00:25:06.965 --> 00:25:09.407 services and getting you to trust Google. 00:25:09.638 --> 00:25:11.440 Google software development a bit more. 00:25:11.901 --> 00:25:14.803 I think like all of these things being 00:25:15.202 --> 00:25:17.163 pixel exclusive, 00:25:18.704 --> 00:25:19.925 like that song recognition thing, 00:25:19.965 --> 00:25:20.446 for example, 00:25:20.707 --> 00:25:21.867 a lot of them are like that. 00:25:22.327 --> 00:25:23.949 A lot of them are to get you 00:25:24.169 --> 00:25:27.431 invested into the Chrome ecosystem and 00:25:27.551 --> 00:25:29.333 stuff like that is, 00:25:30.973 --> 00:25:32.734 that's kind of their motivation at the end 00:25:32.815 --> 00:25:33.596 of the day. 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:35.779 I mean, 00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:38.481 people will even argue that some Google 00:25:38.642 --> 00:25:39.721 services can be private. 00:25:39.761 --> 00:25:42.064 Like they'll point at Google Workspace for 00:25:42.144 --> 00:25:43.284 Education, for example, 00:25:43.304 --> 00:25:45.184 which has these terms of service, 00:25:45.325 --> 00:25:48.366 especially because of laws and regulations 00:25:48.406 --> 00:25:52.128 relating to how student and children's 00:25:52.249 --> 00:25:54.630 data can be used in the first place. 00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:57.711 But even that is not like a selfless 00:25:58.291 --> 00:26:00.673 act on Google's part to release a good 00:26:00.712 --> 00:26:01.913 product that is private. 00:26:02.247 --> 00:26:03.326 private for students, 00:26:03.446 --> 00:26:06.968 it's a way to normalize the entire Google 00:26:07.028 --> 00:26:08.749 software ecosystem so that when they 00:26:08.788 --> 00:26:09.368 become adults, 00:26:09.409 --> 00:26:11.409 they'll use Gmail and Google Drive, 00:26:11.588 --> 00:26:13.089 or when they enter the workplace, 00:26:13.569 --> 00:26:16.150 they'll demand to use Google Docs because 00:26:16.309 --> 00:26:17.471 that's what they're familiar with, 00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:19.851 and Microsoft Word will seem old and 00:26:20.030 --> 00:26:21.432 crusty in comparison. 00:26:22.071 --> 00:26:22.291 And 00:26:23.573 --> 00:26:27.537 That's ultimately the only thing that 00:26:27.856 --> 00:26:29.278 Google cares about. 00:26:29.358 --> 00:26:31.340 It's building this market share and 00:26:31.361 --> 00:26:32.922 getting as much advertising data as 00:26:33.123 --> 00:26:33.643 possible. 00:26:34.023 --> 00:26:35.204 So no, 00:26:35.325 --> 00:26:37.988 I would not use any of these Google 00:26:38.028 --> 00:26:38.627 services. 00:26:38.749 --> 00:26:39.048 I think 00:26:41.299 --> 00:26:44.541 it's I think they just don't lead to 00:26:44.602 --> 00:26:45.622 anything good happening. 00:26:46.362 --> 00:26:47.682 And historically, 00:26:47.722 --> 00:26:50.044 maybe the handful of things that Google 00:26:50.064 --> 00:26:51.684 has done that are good for the world, 00:26:51.724 --> 00:26:53.865 like creating the Android open source 00:26:53.925 --> 00:26:54.945 project, for example, 00:26:55.326 --> 00:26:57.126 I think they're actively trying to 00:26:57.186 --> 00:26:59.407 distance themselves from it and lock it 00:26:59.428 --> 00:27:00.429 down as much as they can, 00:27:00.828 --> 00:27:04.570 through changes to their to how they run 00:27:04.611 --> 00:27:06.711 the source code and making even more 00:27:06.751 --> 00:27:07.231 features 00:27:07.796 --> 00:27:10.936 pixel exclusive, I think, a long time ago, 00:27:10.977 --> 00:27:12.817 they they took out the dialer in the 00:27:12.856 --> 00:27:14.877 messaging app from Android itself. 00:27:14.897 --> 00:27:17.358 So it's not even usable as a phone 00:27:17.419 --> 00:27:17.878 anymore. 00:27:18.719 --> 00:27:20.099 And like on its own, 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.880 they depend on themselves and OEMs making 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:23.259 these apps. 00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:25.340 So now Android is like, 00:27:27.040 --> 00:27:28.862 unless somebody is going to maintain those 00:27:28.902 --> 00:27:29.301 things, 00:27:29.541 --> 00:27:33.182 it locks people into these ecosystems that 00:27:33.202 --> 00:27:35.084 keep growing, growing smaller and smaller. 00:27:35.564 --> 00:27:35.763 So 00:27:38.330 --> 00:27:38.570 Yeah, 00:27:38.810 --> 00:27:41.633 Google has just become kind of an evil 00:27:41.673 --> 00:27:43.075 company, unfortunately. 00:27:43.855 --> 00:27:47.096 And I don't think there's much to do 00:27:47.117 --> 00:27:51.601 about it at this point. 00:27:51.621 --> 00:27:52.060 Definitely. 00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:55.663 All right, 00:27:55.824 --> 00:27:57.605 I guess we can move on to the 00:27:57.644 --> 00:27:58.586 next story here. 00:27:59.266 --> 00:28:01.288 Jonah, what's our next story here? 00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:02.621 Yeah, let's take a look. 00:28:03.261 --> 00:28:05.904 So this was reported by four or four 00:28:05.964 --> 00:28:06.445 media. 00:28:06.506 --> 00:28:08.808 Their headline is the FBI wants to buy 00:28:09.209 --> 00:28:11.071 nationwide access to license plate 00:28:11.092 --> 00:28:11.432 readers. 00:28:11.972 --> 00:28:13.434 Only a couple of vendors could likely 00:28:13.474 --> 00:28:15.277 fulfill what the FBI is after, 00:28:15.317 --> 00:28:17.119 namely Flock and Motorola. 00:28:19.121 --> 00:28:21.040 So their article says the FBI wants to 00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:23.801 buy access to ALPRs nationwide, 00:28:23.821 --> 00:28:25.542 which would likely allow the agency to 00:28:25.663 --> 00:28:28.104 track the movements of vehicles and by 00:28:28.124 --> 00:28:30.644 extension people across the country 00:28:30.723 --> 00:28:31.765 without a warrant, 00:28:32.265 --> 00:28:34.986 according to FBI procurement records that 00:28:35.006 --> 00:28:37.027 for foreign media reviewed. 00:28:38.586 --> 00:28:40.087 The documents that they reviewed show that 00:28:40.208 --> 00:28:42.348 ALPRs continue to be a sought-after tool 00:28:42.368 --> 00:28:43.189 for law enforcement, 00:28:43.229 --> 00:28:45.609 not just for local police and individual 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:47.871 communities, but federal agents too. 00:28:48.570 --> 00:28:50.592 This news is coming, as they note, 00:28:51.291 --> 00:28:53.613 as protests and pushback against these 00:28:53.712 --> 00:28:55.614 license plate readers have spread around 00:28:55.953 --> 00:28:58.055 the country, which, of course, 00:28:58.115 --> 00:29:00.976 we've covered many times here on the show. 00:29:01.375 --> 00:29:01.936 Luckily, 00:29:02.356 --> 00:29:04.017 there are a lot of stories about 00:29:04.196 --> 00:29:04.998 individual agents 00:29:05.698 --> 00:29:09.381 uh cities and towns rejecting these things 00:29:09.441 --> 00:29:11.102 or going into contracts with flock and 00:29:11.122 --> 00:29:13.564 then canceling them because of outrage i 00:29:13.584 --> 00:29:16.826 think these are things that most people 00:29:17.106 --> 00:29:19.969 generally do not want or see the value 00:29:20.130 --> 00:29:24.133 of uh but they are still being adopted 00:29:24.173 --> 00:29:26.294 in a number of other places so this 00:29:26.314 --> 00:29:29.156 four for media article notes that 00:29:31.195 --> 00:29:34.719 In the case of Flock specifically, 00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:38.162 all of the Flock systems that get 00:29:38.201 --> 00:29:42.865 installed are under the control of the 00:29:43.306 --> 00:29:46.189 cities or other entities that order them, 00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:47.849 not Flock themselves. 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:49.491 I don't know if that's technical or just 00:29:49.551 --> 00:29:50.472 a matter of policy, 00:29:50.532 --> 00:29:51.413 but at the end of the day, 00:29:52.884 --> 00:29:54.846 The city that installed it can choose 00:29:54.885 --> 00:29:57.007 whether to share data with federal law 00:29:57.027 --> 00:29:57.768 enforcement. 00:30:00.170 --> 00:30:02.632 And I believe the default is that they 00:30:02.672 --> 00:30:03.673 don't share that information, 00:30:03.712 --> 00:30:05.054 although it would be easy to check. 00:30:05.094 --> 00:30:07.516 And I'm sure a lot of law enforcement 00:30:07.615 --> 00:30:09.637 agencies, local police stations, 00:30:09.718 --> 00:30:10.137 et cetera, 00:30:10.178 --> 00:30:13.340 would be more than happy to share all 00:30:13.401 --> 00:30:14.582 of their data with federal law 00:30:14.602 --> 00:30:15.221 enforcement. 00:30:15.843 --> 00:30:17.683 So I don't think that's a huge protection. 00:30:20.325 --> 00:30:21.846 But yeah, 00:30:22.086 --> 00:30:24.628 it's very concerning because all of this 00:30:24.669 --> 00:30:28.731 data being kind of combined by flock into 00:30:28.791 --> 00:30:30.953 this massive database in a very easily 00:30:31.013 --> 00:30:34.116 searchable database will reveal very fine 00:30:34.136 --> 00:30:36.018 grained detailed information about 00:30:36.057 --> 00:30:37.459 people's travel habits, 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.422 And I wouldn't be surprised knowing what 00:30:43.103 --> 00:30:47.045 applications of AI we've seen in other 00:30:47.085 --> 00:30:49.406 fields, like the military, for example. 00:30:50.446 --> 00:30:52.407 I think we talked about that in a 00:30:52.448 --> 00:30:53.429 previous episode, 00:30:53.489 --> 00:30:59.071 but there was a story about... Yeah, 00:30:59.112 --> 00:31:01.933 I believe it was Anthropic who were kind 00:31:01.973 --> 00:31:04.315 of taking a stand against the military by 00:31:04.355 --> 00:31:05.536 saying you can't use... 00:31:08.273 --> 00:31:11.176 their AI for like targeting people and 00:31:11.217 --> 00:31:12.097 that sort of thing. 00:31:12.198 --> 00:31:15.201 But other AI companies have not been as 00:31:15.241 --> 00:31:15.981 strong against this. 00:31:16.001 --> 00:31:19.026 And I would imagine that we're very close 00:31:19.385 --> 00:31:22.930 if this goes through from a system where 00:31:22.990 --> 00:31:26.053 not only can the FBI look up people's 00:31:26.073 --> 00:31:28.236 license plates to track them and see what 00:31:28.256 --> 00:31:28.796 they're doing, 00:31:28.915 --> 00:31:29.116 but 00:31:31.692 --> 00:31:33.954 they will be able to implement AI systems 00:31:33.994 --> 00:31:36.497 who can analyze all of this data and 00:31:37.097 --> 00:31:40.401 probably preemptively track people, 00:31:40.421 --> 00:31:42.522 find people of interest depending on where 00:31:42.542 --> 00:31:43.063 they're going. 00:31:43.143 --> 00:31:46.846 Maybe there's hotspots that they are 00:31:46.886 --> 00:31:49.128 concerned about and they want to see all 00:31:49.148 --> 00:31:50.950 the people who go in and out and 00:31:50.970 --> 00:31:51.550 that sort of thing. 00:31:51.570 --> 00:31:54.093 We've seen that sort of geolocation 00:31:54.133 --> 00:31:56.454 feature in other stories in the past. 00:31:57.415 --> 00:32:00.219 uh specifically with google this most 00:32:01.059 --> 00:32:03.583 often happens with people or law 00:32:03.603 --> 00:32:05.605 enforcement agencies will make requests to 00:32:05.644 --> 00:32:08.709 google asking for all of the phones 00:32:08.749 --> 00:32:11.311 basically that were in a given area and 00:32:11.332 --> 00:32:14.915 these areas can be quite large and cover 00:32:16.529 --> 00:32:19.471 tens or hundreds or thousands of Google 00:32:19.491 --> 00:32:22.273 accounts that will then have their privacy 00:32:22.294 --> 00:32:24.434 breached just because they were somewhat 00:32:24.535 --> 00:32:26.876 in the vicinity of a crime that occurred. 00:32:27.497 --> 00:32:31.079 So I would be very concerned about that. 00:32:32.823 --> 00:32:34.644 We've definitely seen a lot of flock in 00:32:34.664 --> 00:32:35.025 the news. 00:32:35.065 --> 00:32:37.047 That's the big name that people are 00:32:37.086 --> 00:32:38.509 pushing back against right now. 00:32:38.989 --> 00:32:41.632 I know that Motorola has a pretty 00:32:41.692 --> 00:32:42.992 extensive system as well, 00:32:43.012 --> 00:32:44.994 which for media called out in this 00:32:45.055 --> 00:32:45.434 article. 00:32:45.895 --> 00:32:48.557 I don't actually know how extensive that 00:32:48.597 --> 00:32:50.180 is or how many cities have installed it 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:51.520 or what that system entails. 00:32:51.601 --> 00:32:52.141 I'd have to look. 00:32:52.922 --> 00:32:53.863 more into that. 00:32:54.282 --> 00:32:55.503 But in this article, 00:32:56.404 --> 00:33:00.387 the FBI says that they are open to 00:33:00.448 --> 00:33:04.171 awarding a contract to multiple vendors if 00:33:04.651 --> 00:33:06.553 that helps them achieve their goal of 00:33:06.633 --> 00:33:09.174 pretty much nationwide access to this 00:33:09.214 --> 00:33:09.494 data. 00:33:09.595 --> 00:33:11.777 So it's very possible that they could 00:33:12.096 --> 00:33:13.897 enter a contract with Flock, Motorola, 00:33:14.218 --> 00:33:16.019 maybe even some other companies and 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.000 combine all of that data into one system. 00:33:18.402 --> 00:33:18.602 So 00:33:20.446 --> 00:33:20.606 Yeah, 00:33:20.727 --> 00:33:22.347 I think this is a very concerning 00:33:22.387 --> 00:33:25.829 development in the area of government mass 00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:26.470 surveillance. 00:33:27.509 --> 00:33:29.570 This is exactly the sort of problem that 00:33:29.852 --> 00:33:31.392 Nate just talked about with Naomi 00:33:31.412 --> 00:33:33.933 Brockwell in that interview we did 00:33:33.973 --> 00:33:34.493 recently. 00:33:35.683 --> 00:33:37.925 As far as warrantless searches of our data 00:33:37.965 --> 00:33:38.205 goes, 00:33:38.226 --> 00:33:40.167 that was more to address data brokers. 00:33:40.208 --> 00:33:41.709 But this is the same category of stuff 00:33:41.749 --> 00:33:43.690 where they can get all this data from 00:33:43.750 --> 00:33:46.332 private companies and compile it all and 00:33:46.432 --> 00:33:47.972 use it without getting a warrant, 00:33:48.113 --> 00:33:51.516 which it's just scary stuff, I think. 00:33:54.364 --> 00:33:54.723 Yeah, 00:33:55.023 --> 00:33:57.165 I definitely was going to touch on that. 00:33:57.185 --> 00:33:58.807 Like it does seem like this is sort 00:33:58.866 --> 00:34:01.367 of exactly like what we were talking about 00:34:01.667 --> 00:34:02.489 with that interview. 00:34:03.229 --> 00:34:04.289 Like, you know, 00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:07.191 this data shouldn't be just easily 00:34:07.211 --> 00:34:09.552 accessible by like police departments and 00:34:09.572 --> 00:34:10.273 like the government. 00:34:10.293 --> 00:34:12.813 Like they shouldn't be able to know every 00:34:12.833 --> 00:34:15.735 single person's movements within a city 00:34:16.335 --> 00:34:16.876 and whatnot. 00:34:17.856 --> 00:34:20.838 I think that is pretty bad information. 00:34:22.735 --> 00:34:24.936 Is the solution to this basically at this 00:34:24.976 --> 00:34:25.576 point, you know, 00:34:25.675 --> 00:34:27.858 just getting these camera systems removed 00:34:27.998 --> 00:34:30.838 or perhaps like a legal precedent for 00:34:30.878 --> 00:34:32.059 perhaps, you know, 00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:34.882 this being against the Fourth Amendment 00:34:35.001 --> 00:34:35.061 or? 00:34:36.240 --> 00:34:36.960 Yeah, I mean, 00:34:38.061 --> 00:34:40.262 it's my opinion that it's clearly against 00:34:40.302 --> 00:34:41.161 the Fourth Amendment, 00:34:41.181 --> 00:34:44.463 but obviously that's not much of a concern 00:34:44.563 --> 00:34:46.184 to the government these days, it seems. 00:34:46.724 --> 00:34:48.503 I think that you definitely have to take 00:34:48.523 --> 00:34:49.304 both approaches. 00:34:49.445 --> 00:34:51.585 The best way to do this is to 00:34:51.625 --> 00:34:54.085 make sure that this isn't happening in 00:34:54.126 --> 00:34:55.485 your town, 00:34:55.746 --> 00:34:57.766 and that means getting involved with these 00:34:57.806 --> 00:34:58.427 city councils. 00:34:58.746 --> 00:35:01.387 I know that politics is very... 00:35:02.088 --> 00:35:03.489 annoying to deal with and i think a 00:35:03.528 --> 00:35:06.490 lot of people lose hope uh when it 00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:08.733 comes to like nationwide federal 00:35:08.753 --> 00:35:10.934 government or even their state government 00:35:11.414 --> 00:35:12.576 um in some cases but 00:35:14.527 --> 00:35:15.367 Your local government, 00:35:15.407 --> 00:35:16.447 you can't have a lot of power and 00:35:16.467 --> 00:35:17.929 it's a very small group of people, 00:35:17.989 --> 00:35:18.329 I think, 00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:19.650 that they can get away with a lot 00:35:19.670 --> 00:35:21.369 of stuff just because there's no pushback 00:35:21.389 --> 00:35:21.650 at all. 00:35:21.690 --> 00:35:23.931 So even a little pushback on this sort 00:35:23.971 --> 00:35:26.652 of thing can definitely help out your 00:35:26.753 --> 00:35:27.253 community. 00:35:27.512 --> 00:35:28.873 And I would try to do that and 00:35:28.914 --> 00:35:31.235 I would try to get more community members 00:35:31.355 --> 00:35:33.215 involved and just be persistent about it 00:35:33.416 --> 00:35:35.836 if your city or town is... 00:35:36.873 --> 00:35:39.476 considering implementing flock or has 00:35:39.536 --> 00:35:44.019 already implemented it um but the other 00:35:44.059 --> 00:35:47.603 approach is definitely something like the 00:35:47.844 --> 00:35:49.625 the surveillance accountability act that 00:35:49.746 --> 00:35:52.568 naomi brockwell drafted and recently 00:35:52.668 --> 00:35:57.532 introduced with uh thomas massey i you can 00:35:57.632 --> 00:35:58.634 if you want to learn more about that 00:35:58.673 --> 00:36:00.514 you could go watch that interview after 00:36:00.534 --> 00:36:01.556 this i would say 00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:04.563 telling other all the listeners here, 00:36:05.063 --> 00:36:06.744 I would say that I think it's very 00:36:06.844 --> 00:36:09.867 unlikely that that will come to pass, 00:36:10.248 --> 00:36:13.632 especially because Thomas Massey lost out 00:36:13.711 --> 00:36:15.873 in the Republican primary because Trump 00:36:15.914 --> 00:36:18.697 really wanted him out and spent a lot 00:36:18.737 --> 00:36:20.619 of money to make that happen. 00:36:21.259 --> 00:36:21.519 So 00:36:24.985 --> 00:36:26.407 I don't think either way, 00:36:26.487 --> 00:36:27.507 I don't think it was really going to 00:36:27.547 --> 00:36:27.969 go anywhere. 00:36:28.028 --> 00:36:29.250 But I do think that that kind of 00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:31.391 bill was important for like privacy 00:36:31.431 --> 00:36:31.992 education. 00:36:32.193 --> 00:36:34.014 I'm glad that Thomas Massey signed on to 00:36:34.054 --> 00:36:34.134 it, 00:36:34.213 --> 00:36:36.255 even if he's going to be out of 00:36:36.717 --> 00:36:37.356 office soon, 00:36:37.376 --> 00:36:39.338 because it's kind of like a nice parting 00:36:39.378 --> 00:36:41.280 gift to the American people to at least 00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:43.362 educate people about privacy and be like, 00:36:43.702 --> 00:36:44.804 this is what should be happening. 00:36:44.844 --> 00:36:46.304 And we should at least be discussing it 00:36:46.324 --> 00:36:48.126 more and seeing what we can we can 00:36:48.166 --> 00:36:48.666 do about it. 00:36:48.706 --> 00:36:49.188 Because 00:36:51.568 --> 00:36:53.690 We need some more protections against this 00:36:53.730 --> 00:36:54.269 kind of... 00:36:55.050 --> 00:36:56.490 The government would probably consider 00:36:56.751 --> 00:36:59.833 gray area stuff with the Fourth Amendment. 00:37:00.733 --> 00:37:03.574 And we need an easier way to hold 00:37:03.614 --> 00:37:04.994 the government accountable and sue the 00:37:05.014 --> 00:37:05.715 government for... 00:37:06.695 --> 00:37:08.378 violations of the fourth amendment because 00:37:08.637 --> 00:37:10.380 for some reason we're in the situation 00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:12.521 right now where the u.s constitution 00:37:13.202 --> 00:37:16.525 guarantees a lot of rights but if the 00:37:16.585 --> 00:37:18.108 government violates those rights you have 00:37:18.128 --> 00:37:20.369 very little recourse it's very challenging 00:37:20.449 --> 00:37:22.733 to sue the federal government because the 00:37:22.773 --> 00:37:25.034 entire system is stacked against the 00:37:25.054 --> 00:37:28.518 ability for you to do that which kind 00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:28.699 of 00:37:30.998 --> 00:37:31.278 I mean, 00:37:31.398 --> 00:37:33.378 weakens the entire idea of having this 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:36.019 judicial system in the first place. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.139 I think it's very unfortunate. 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:41.001 But just like we have Section two one, 00:37:41.081 --> 00:37:43.240 which reinforces the First Amendment, 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.382 I do think we need something similar when 00:37:45.422 --> 00:37:46.481 it comes to data brokers, 00:37:46.521 --> 00:37:49.121 when it comes to these huge tech companies 00:37:49.161 --> 00:37:50.742 like Flock that are collecting all of this 00:37:50.762 --> 00:37:52.262 camera data around the country, 00:37:53.523 --> 00:37:55.822 preventing that sort of surveillance from 00:37:55.862 --> 00:37:56.202 happening, 00:37:56.543 --> 00:37:58.244 especially preventing the government from 00:37:59.248 --> 00:38:02.590 abusing that data and compiling it all 00:38:02.690 --> 00:38:04.710 into an even larger mass surveillance 00:38:04.731 --> 00:38:07.351 system I think absolutely needs to happen 00:38:07.411 --> 00:38:09.452 and I think we need to be talking 00:38:09.472 --> 00:38:13.195 about that more and demanding it. 00:38:13.514 --> 00:38:15.596 Definitely and it's yeah it is kind of 00:38:15.635 --> 00:38:17.856 unfortunate that like we kind of had a 00:38:19.815 --> 00:38:22.057 I feel like in the US there's very 00:38:22.097 --> 00:38:24.041 few politicians who actually care about 00:38:24.101 --> 00:38:24.561 privacy. 00:38:24.822 --> 00:38:27.844 I think the other one was Ron Wyden, 00:38:27.945 --> 00:38:28.465 I believe, 00:38:29.867 --> 00:38:31.550 and I guess that kind of sucks now 00:38:31.570 --> 00:38:35.074 that we've got only basically him left. 00:38:36.795 --> 00:38:37.856 It is kind of frustrating, 00:38:38.396 --> 00:38:39.918 but I think what Jonah said, 00:38:40.197 --> 00:38:42.199 the local level is also really important. 00:38:43.059 --> 00:38:46.021 I feel like these companies like Flock and 00:38:46.061 --> 00:38:48.362 Motorola, they probably are doing... 00:38:49.222 --> 00:38:51.264 Isn't there probably a lot of lobbying and 00:38:51.284 --> 00:38:52.985 a lot of money behind this whole 00:38:53.065 --> 00:38:53.485 initiative? 00:38:53.505 --> 00:38:55.327 Is that why a lot of cities are 00:38:55.347 --> 00:38:56.367 choosing to implement this? 00:38:57.827 --> 00:38:58.889 I mean, absolutely. 00:38:59.088 --> 00:38:59.728 There's got to be. 00:38:59.849 --> 00:39:00.849 I remember we saw... 00:39:00.969 --> 00:39:01.989 I don't know if it made it into 00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:02.570 the show notes, 00:39:02.610 --> 00:39:05.291 but we just read in one of our 00:39:05.331 --> 00:39:05.952 chats about... 00:39:07.838 --> 00:39:12.302 a city in Texas that is losing flock 00:39:12.322 --> 00:39:13.822 because of pushback from the community. 00:39:13.922 --> 00:39:17.766 And one city council member had a total 00:39:17.786 --> 00:39:19.969 crash out basically and wrote a huge 00:39:20.028 --> 00:39:23.632 manifesto about how crazy it is to get 00:39:23.652 --> 00:39:24.873 rid of flock and how they might as 00:39:24.893 --> 00:39:26.514 well go back to the eighteen hundreds if 00:39:26.554 --> 00:39:28.577 they can't use these surveillance cameras 00:39:28.617 --> 00:39:30.498 to track people around their city. 00:39:35.432 --> 00:39:37.418 If you read that entire letter that he 00:39:37.458 --> 00:39:37.619 wrote, 00:39:37.659 --> 00:39:39.884 it came from a very emotional place, 00:39:39.903 --> 00:39:41.307 which I think that 00:39:42.224 --> 00:39:45.067 isn't typical of even politicians who 00:39:45.086 --> 00:39:46.527 don't get their way unless they were like 00:39:46.568 --> 00:39:48.329 personally invested in this in some way. 00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:50.471 So I would not be surprised at all 00:39:50.590 --> 00:39:53.532 if there are kickbacks from flock and 00:39:53.592 --> 00:39:56.755 these other surveillance providers to to 00:39:57.356 --> 00:39:58.817 these cities that implement them, 00:39:59.396 --> 00:40:00.518 because it seemed like, you know, 00:40:01.179 --> 00:40:02.699 he was really personally losing out. 00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:04.121 And that does seem like the sort of 00:40:04.161 --> 00:40:05.581 thing that that they would do. 00:40:07.603 --> 00:40:07.943 Yeah. 00:40:08.242 --> 00:40:10.003 I think just to like finish out this 00:40:10.043 --> 00:40:10.684 topic here, 00:40:10.903 --> 00:40:13.065 I guess like for some people in the 00:40:13.085 --> 00:40:13.885 audience who, you know, 00:40:13.925 --> 00:40:17.425 might be feeling a little bit skeptical of 00:40:17.465 --> 00:40:18.465 this technology, 00:40:18.505 --> 00:40:19.606 maybe they're not a hundred percent 00:40:19.626 --> 00:40:20.226 against it yet. 00:40:20.246 --> 00:40:21.047 They're not really sure. 00:40:21.567 --> 00:40:21.947 Is there, 00:40:22.086 --> 00:40:23.527 is there like evidence that this 00:40:23.586 --> 00:40:25.427 technology is even good for catching 00:40:25.467 --> 00:40:27.788 criminals or is actually an effective tool 00:40:27.989 --> 00:40:29.088 or is this just, you know, 00:40:29.588 --> 00:40:32.210 a thinly veiled excuse to actually install 00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:33.170 these cameras everywhere? 00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:33.269 Yeah. 00:40:34.059 --> 00:40:34.239 You know, 00:40:34.278 --> 00:40:36.539 I haven't seen much evidence to that 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:37.000 effect. 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.699 Even if there were evidence, 00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:42.621 I would have to look into that more. 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.681 But it certainly isn't having the, like, 00:40:48.061 --> 00:40:50.001 enough of a profound effect to make it 00:40:50.081 --> 00:40:51.362 worth it by any means. 00:40:51.461 --> 00:40:52.202 At the end of the day, 00:40:52.222 --> 00:40:54.722 you have to balance this against the 00:40:54.782 --> 00:40:57.282 rights that people have to privacy and the 00:40:57.322 --> 00:41:00.324 rights that people have against privacy. 00:41:00.887 --> 00:41:02.728 warrantless and illegal government 00:41:02.788 --> 00:41:06.869 searches at least in theory and any 00:41:06.949 --> 00:41:08.809 potential benefits that this has for law 00:41:08.829 --> 00:41:11.809 enforcement aren't outweighed by people's 00:41:11.869 --> 00:41:17.072 rights and by the u.s constitution i don't 00:41:17.612 --> 00:41:20.771 think um it's probably not super 00:41:20.831 --> 00:41:24.072 controversial to to most people to want to 00:41:25.012 --> 00:41:27.594 make catching crime easier and to help 00:41:28.472 --> 00:41:30.494 help out law enforcement with their jobs a 00:41:30.554 --> 00:41:31.114 little bit. 00:41:31.213 --> 00:41:34.295 But that help has to come through legal 00:41:34.434 --> 00:41:36.614 routes like requiring a warrant and having 00:41:36.635 --> 00:41:38.795 some oversight from another branch of 00:41:38.835 --> 00:41:41.317 government from the from the judicial side 00:41:41.356 --> 00:41:43.597 of things rather than their executive 00:41:43.637 --> 00:41:44.077 branch. 00:41:44.797 --> 00:41:47.018 And without those checks and balances, 00:41:47.237 --> 00:41:49.378 it's just an authoritarian system, 00:41:50.438 --> 00:41:52.400 which is completely unacceptable. 00:41:55.014 --> 00:41:55.474 Definitely. 00:41:56.255 --> 00:41:57.215 I a hundred percent agree. 00:41:57.614 --> 00:41:57.735 Um, 00:41:57.835 --> 00:41:59.295 I guess here we can dive into this 00:41:59.396 --> 00:42:00.315 next topic here. 00:42:00.576 --> 00:42:00.717 Uh, 00:42:00.737 --> 00:42:06.938 this is a story about researchers wanting 00:42:07.278 --> 00:42:10.581 preschool teachers to wear cameras to 00:42:10.641 --> 00:42:12.222 train AI. 00:42:12.461 --> 00:42:14.081 So this is kind of a ridiculous story. 00:42:14.101 --> 00:42:15.282 I can't believe we're actually, 00:42:15.742 --> 00:42:17.264 this is actually a thing. 00:42:17.483 --> 00:42:17.664 Um, 00:42:19.170 --> 00:42:20.831 And this is a quote from this article 00:42:20.851 --> 00:42:22.451 by four or four media with your 00:42:22.490 --> 00:42:22.972 permission, 00:42:23.092 --> 00:42:26.112 your child's lead teacher may wear a small 00:42:26.313 --> 00:42:28.733 teacher worn camera that captures the 00:42:28.773 --> 00:42:30.695 teacher's approximate first person 00:42:30.715 --> 00:42:31.375 perspective. 00:42:31.996 --> 00:42:32.255 And, 00:42:32.496 --> 00:42:35.476 or we may place a fixed video camera 00:42:35.597 --> 00:42:36.418 in the classroom, 00:42:36.518 --> 00:42:38.358 a document given to parents and later 00:42:38.378 --> 00:42:40.159 shared with four or four media reads 00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:43.561 university of Washington researchers plan 00:42:43.581 --> 00:42:45.422 to have preschool teachers wear cameras 00:42:45.461 --> 00:42:47.242 that would record everything they saw from 00:42:47.262 --> 00:42:48.603 a first person perspective. 00:42:50.019 --> 00:42:51.960 including the children they were teaching. 00:42:52.601 --> 00:42:54.260 Then they would use this footage to 00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:55.460 develop AI models. 00:42:56.101 --> 00:42:59.001 One parent who spoke to for media 00:42:59.081 --> 00:43:02.463 understood the program as opt out rather 00:43:02.483 --> 00:43:03.103 than opt in. 00:43:03.784 --> 00:43:05.744 The university said that classroom 00:43:05.784 --> 00:43:08.184 participation was contingent upon 00:43:08.244 --> 00:43:11.565 receiving parental permission from all the 00:43:11.585 --> 00:43:11.945 children. 00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:13.699 Uh, 00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:15.440 I just want to say like already from 00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:16.742 the top here, uh, 00:43:17.561 --> 00:43:18.682 when it comes to children, 00:43:18.722 --> 00:43:20.463 like we already have a lot of laws 00:43:20.543 --> 00:43:21.264 around, you know, 00:43:21.625 --> 00:43:23.505 collecting children's information because 00:43:24.246 --> 00:43:24.885 let's be honest, 00:43:24.987 --> 00:43:26.306 like children can't consent. 00:43:26.407 --> 00:43:28.128 They don't, they don't, they're not fully, 00:43:28.949 --> 00:43:30.329 uh, capable of consenting. 00:43:30.630 --> 00:43:31.429 Um, so, you know, 00:43:31.449 --> 00:43:33.510 when we have preschool children here, 00:43:33.670 --> 00:43:36.413 like these are like, you know, 00:43:36.432 --> 00:43:37.773 these are toddlers, like these are, 00:43:37.954 --> 00:43:39.715 these are very, very young children. 00:43:40.114 --> 00:43:40.255 Um, 00:43:41.945 --> 00:43:43.775 It's kind of concerning, right? 00:43:44.298 --> 00:43:45.485 So I think that 00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.722 That should already be our thing from the 00:43:49.782 --> 00:43:50.762 top here. 00:43:50.802 --> 00:43:52.264 These are children that can't consent. 00:43:52.304 --> 00:43:53.065 Their information, 00:43:53.125 --> 00:43:56.007 their faces could have been recorded. 00:43:56.166 --> 00:43:58.449 I assume that none of the parents approved 00:43:58.469 --> 00:43:58.708 this, 00:43:58.809 --> 00:44:05.074 but maybe I'm thinking too positively of 00:44:05.114 --> 00:44:05.293 them. 00:44:05.373 --> 00:44:06.315 But, I mean, 00:44:06.434 --> 00:44:08.016 I certainly wouldn't allow this to happen 00:44:08.056 --> 00:44:11.559 if my child was going to a school. 00:44:14.391 --> 00:44:17.373 So, yeah, this is, I guess, 00:44:17.454 --> 00:44:21.735 another aspect of how AI is becoming very 00:44:21.775 --> 00:44:24.277 entrenched into the education system. 00:44:24.436 --> 00:44:25.518 I think, you know, 00:44:25.538 --> 00:44:27.199 we're probably going to see like children 00:44:27.318 --> 00:44:30.380 accessing AI models and these children 00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:33.121 safe AI models and like, you know, 00:44:33.242 --> 00:44:34.661 all this kind of creepy stuff. 00:44:35.382 --> 00:44:36.262 But yeah, Jonah, 00:44:36.282 --> 00:44:42.987 do you have any thoughts on this one? 00:44:43.007 --> 00:44:43.447 You're muted. 00:44:46.297 --> 00:44:47.998 Oops. 00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.960 My immediate thought when I saw this 00:44:51.081 --> 00:44:51.362 story, 00:44:51.402 --> 00:44:54.186 I sent this picture in the chat right 00:44:54.206 --> 00:44:55.947 away because I feel like we were warned 00:44:56.007 --> 00:44:59.271 about this sort of thing. 00:44:59.871 --> 00:45:00.572 How many years ago? 00:45:00.632 --> 00:45:01.353 Eight years ago. 00:45:02.914 --> 00:45:05.016 And there's a lot of lessons in the 00:45:05.056 --> 00:45:05.797 media that I think 00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:08.420 people should be taking away from and 00:45:09.059 --> 00:45:09.380 don't. 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:13.322 But that is the classic problem. 00:45:13.342 --> 00:45:18.043 It's a classic quote about sci-fi writers 00:45:18.083 --> 00:45:21.965 and other writers in the arts and 00:45:21.985 --> 00:45:24.525 literature space will write a story about 00:45:25.085 --> 00:45:27.788 the torment nexus and how it's super bad. 00:45:27.847 --> 00:45:30.309 Don't build it and then tech pros are 00:45:30.349 --> 00:45:32.088 like, let's build the torment nexus. 00:45:32.128 --> 00:45:33.670 It sounds so cool. 00:45:33.690 --> 00:45:35.431 That's the sort of thing we're getting 00:45:35.451 --> 00:45:35.931 into here. 00:45:36.632 --> 00:45:43.103 I don't know what it is that like 00:45:43.625 --> 00:45:47.172 these schools are hoping to learn from the 00:45:47.331 --> 00:45:47.793 from this. 00:45:49.735 --> 00:45:53.677 I feel like I know that this article 00:45:53.737 --> 00:45:57.298 does say the goal is to better understand 00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.701 children's everyday learning experiences 00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:03.043 and develop AI tools that can help assess 00:46:03.443 --> 00:46:04.943 classroom interaction quality. 00:46:05.724 --> 00:46:07.364 That to me feels like the sort of 00:46:07.425 --> 00:46:11.487 thing that you could just ask teachers 00:46:11.527 --> 00:46:13.327 about how things are going in your 00:46:13.347 --> 00:46:13.849 classroom. 00:46:14.715 --> 00:46:16.697 what what issues are you having i don't 00:46:16.737 --> 00:46:19.920 know if you need ai to analyze all 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:22.043 of this and put it into a nice 00:46:22.123 --> 00:46:27.327 chart for school administrators to look at 00:46:27.347 --> 00:46:29.409 i i don't know what these charts are 00:46:29.429 --> 00:46:31.931 really doing for for the education sector 00:46:32.012 --> 00:46:34.815 in general i think that this is like 00:46:34.835 --> 00:46:36.356 a lot of things in the schools these 00:46:36.396 --> 00:46:37.217 days um 00:46:38.815 --> 00:46:42.960 overly bureaucratic administrations really 00:46:43.001 --> 00:46:46.485 taking away from the educational system 00:46:46.626 --> 00:46:50.751 and really hurting teachers, 00:46:51.333 --> 00:46:52.313 hurting students, 00:46:52.594 --> 00:46:52.815 and 00:46:55.056 --> 00:46:58.681 I don't really see how this could be 00:46:58.701 --> 00:46:59.280 beneficial. 00:46:59.681 --> 00:47:01.923 What I did not see in this article 00:47:02.684 --> 00:47:06.108 is what the teachers in question think 00:47:06.289 --> 00:47:07.550 about this system. 00:47:08.371 --> 00:47:10.773 We've heard what parents think and what 00:47:11.994 --> 00:47:13.996 the people doing the study and what the 00:47:14.036 --> 00:47:15.418 administrators at the school think. 00:47:18.163 --> 00:47:21.603 would be kind of surprised if the teachers 00:47:21.664 --> 00:47:23.123 were like super on board with this and 00:47:23.143 --> 00:47:25.684 really wanted to know how to integrate ai 00:47:25.744 --> 00:47:27.905 into their classroom more i feel like 00:47:28.684 --> 00:47:31.186 that's not something that people are 00:47:31.206 --> 00:47:32.585 clamoring for and i think that a lot 00:47:32.626 --> 00:47:35.626 of people in the educational space know 00:47:35.806 --> 00:47:39.186 that all of this integration of ai and 00:47:39.206 --> 00:47:41.148 all of this reliance on ai is making 00:47:41.188 --> 00:47:42.447 the quality of education 00:47:43.371 --> 00:47:47.932 worse uh it's making like like an overuse 00:47:47.972 --> 00:47:50.074 of technology in the classroom especially 00:47:50.094 --> 00:47:54.577 without proper technology education in the 00:47:54.637 --> 00:48:00.039 first place no uh no no guidelines for 00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:02.300 students to follow no i mean in a 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:03.880 lot of cases no advice is really given 00:48:03.900 --> 00:48:05.362 you just put in front of a an 00:48:05.481 --> 00:48:06.822 ipad or a chromebook and 00:48:08.403 --> 00:48:09.144 told to do things. 00:48:09.164 --> 00:48:10.606 And a lot of students are expected to 00:48:10.646 --> 00:48:11.626 know the basics. 00:48:11.666 --> 00:48:13.748 But if you're not learning the dangers of 00:48:13.789 --> 00:48:14.168 this stuff, 00:48:14.188 --> 00:48:16.490 if you're not learning how to browse the 00:48:16.510 --> 00:48:17.731 internet responsibly, 00:48:17.893 --> 00:48:21.255 it's just a gateway into all sorts of 00:48:21.735 --> 00:48:22.356 bad behaviors. 00:48:22.396 --> 00:48:25.139 I don't think that technology needs to be 00:48:25.179 --> 00:48:27.360 completely removed from the classrooms or 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:28.101 anything like that. 00:48:29.516 --> 00:48:30.856 cameras probably do. 00:48:30.936 --> 00:48:32.438 I can't imagine. 00:48:33.057 --> 00:48:35.219 I still can't imagine why anyone would 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:37.239 want what's described in this article. 00:48:37.259 --> 00:48:39.920 But in general, you know, 00:48:39.940 --> 00:48:41.679 technology is important. 00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:43.681 And certainly you should be skilled in it. 00:48:43.701 --> 00:48:46.661 But I think students are basically being 00:48:46.782 --> 00:48:49.181 trained to be consumers of technology and 00:48:49.202 --> 00:48:50.262 whatever is put in front of them, 00:48:50.503 --> 00:48:53.182 AI is only going to worsen that problem. 00:48:54.043 --> 00:48:55.443 And something needs to be done about that 00:48:55.483 --> 00:48:57.184 we need to bring back proper tech 00:48:57.224 --> 00:48:57.724 education, 00:48:57.744 --> 00:48:58.704 we need to bring back 00:49:01.014 --> 00:49:01.396 I think more 00:49:04.007 --> 00:49:05.728 Just more reliance on the people who are 00:49:06.268 --> 00:49:09.389 actually doing these jobs and interacting 00:49:09.409 --> 00:49:10.789 with these students and giving them the 00:49:10.809 --> 00:49:12.271 tools that they ask for. 00:49:12.311 --> 00:49:14.791 Because while this is happening, 00:49:15.152 --> 00:49:17.253 while they're trying to shove cameras and 00:49:17.373 --> 00:49:19.793 AI into every corner of these classrooms, 00:49:20.313 --> 00:49:22.753 teachers are not getting the resources 00:49:22.773 --> 00:49:23.114 they need. 00:49:23.175 --> 00:49:25.675 They have to spend their own money to 00:49:25.695 --> 00:49:28.135 get pencils to hand out to their students 00:49:28.175 --> 00:49:29.056 and stuff like that. 00:49:31.117 --> 00:49:32.177 Our priorities are so... 00:49:33.257 --> 00:49:35.601 mixed up here in the educational space. 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.543 At least that's my perspective here in the 00:49:38.864 --> 00:49:39.164 US. 00:49:39.264 --> 00:49:43.047 I don't know how education works around 00:49:43.407 --> 00:49:43.969 the world. 00:49:44.349 --> 00:49:44.929 I feel like 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:48.802 I hear China has a lot of education 00:49:48.822 --> 00:49:49.121 stuff done, 00:49:49.161 --> 00:49:50.302 but then they have their own separate 00:49:50.322 --> 00:49:50.682 problems. 00:49:51.403 --> 00:49:53.525 I don't know what the best solution is, 00:49:53.565 --> 00:49:55.827 but I think that something needs to be 00:49:55.867 --> 00:49:56.367 done. 00:49:56.788 --> 00:49:58.688 This is clearly not the right direction. 00:49:58.949 --> 00:50:00.871 Even if there are multiple directions we 00:50:00.971 --> 00:50:05.755 could be going in, this is not it. 00:50:05.795 --> 00:50:06.474 Yeah, 00:50:06.635 --> 00:50:10.818 I definitely agree with your analysis 00:50:10.858 --> 00:50:11.119 there. 00:50:11.179 --> 00:50:12.039 I think also the 00:50:12.793 --> 00:50:14.333 the thing that I feel like kind of 00:50:14.353 --> 00:50:18.697 happens with schools is I feel like 00:50:18.757 --> 00:50:22.820 sometimes people don't think that children 00:50:23.561 --> 00:50:24.722 need human rights. 00:50:24.782 --> 00:50:27.605 Like just because they're children doesn't 00:50:27.644 --> 00:50:30.347 mean that they can't, 00:50:30.527 --> 00:50:33.530 like they can be guinea pigs for this 00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:34.150 technology. 00:50:34.190 --> 00:50:36.172 Like I feel like if you said we're 00:50:36.192 --> 00:50:37.753 going to be installing machines 00:50:38.367 --> 00:50:40.431 AI cameras in McDonald's that's going to 00:50:40.592 --> 00:50:42.755 automatically analyze your facial patterns 00:50:42.836 --> 00:50:43.077 and like 00:50:43.552 --> 00:50:45.293 send all of this data to train AI, 00:50:45.355 --> 00:50:46.474 I feel like people would be kind of 00:50:46.514 --> 00:50:47.775 like, what the heck? 00:50:47.856 --> 00:50:48.317 Like what? 00:50:48.396 --> 00:50:49.797 I'm not going to McDonald's anymore. 00:50:49.838 --> 00:50:50.338 Like what? 00:50:51.278 --> 00:50:53.481 But then as soon as you say it's 00:50:53.521 --> 00:50:54.862 for a learning environment, you know, 00:50:54.902 --> 00:50:56.063 we're trying to help kids. 00:50:56.123 --> 00:50:57.804 Like it's like, no, 00:50:57.885 --> 00:51:00.166 like I don't think that's really, 00:51:02.068 --> 00:51:03.568 I think that's kind of a bad excuse. 00:51:03.909 --> 00:51:05.690 It did say in this, 00:51:06.952 --> 00:51:08.193 they got a response back from the 00:51:08.233 --> 00:51:09.092 University of, 00:51:09.153 --> 00:51:10.614 was it University of Washington? 00:51:11.175 --> 00:51:12.496 Yes, University of Washington, 00:51:12.536 --> 00:51:14.496 they got a response back and they said, 00:51:16.016 --> 00:51:18.139 our initial outreach was intended to help 00:51:18.199 --> 00:51:20.199 us better understand how families would 00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:22.400 feel about a project that uses artificial 00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:24.762 intelligence to support teachers. 00:51:25.601 --> 00:51:25.782 Now, 00:51:25.961 --> 00:51:27.543 I actually kind of feel like this is 00:51:27.702 --> 00:51:28.804 a little bit of a 00:51:30.744 --> 00:51:33.525 cop-out maybe like I kind of am interested 00:51:33.545 --> 00:51:36.367 to see what this actual thing that they 00:51:36.387 --> 00:51:39.389 were trying to do contained um I think 00:51:39.429 --> 00:51:42.771 there is a yeah there is actually a 00:51:42.831 --> 00:51:44.570 picture of it on there I don't know 00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:45.851 if we can open that up on on 00:51:45.871 --> 00:51:49.014 this on the stream but uh yeah it 00:51:49.034 --> 00:51:52.454 is kind of strange like I don't think 00:51:52.514 --> 00:51:55.697 it's it says specifically that that's a 00:51:55.757 --> 00:51:56.077 reason 00:51:57.759 --> 00:51:58.378 And I don't know, 00:51:58.438 --> 00:51:59.840 it just kind of comes across a little 00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:02.561 bit strange that they would say that's the 00:52:02.581 --> 00:52:03.802 reason why they were doing this, 00:52:03.862 --> 00:52:06.262 not because, you know, well, 00:52:06.282 --> 00:52:10.666 these are the nefarious reasons, but... 00:52:10.686 --> 00:52:11.887 Maybe, oh yeah, 00:52:11.907 --> 00:52:14.688 I can share the document that they got 00:52:14.748 --> 00:52:15.027 here. 00:52:17.309 --> 00:52:18.730 It basically said what you said at the 00:52:18.750 --> 00:52:19.110 beginning, 00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:21.411 your child's teacher may wear a small 00:52:21.952 --> 00:52:22.351 camera, 00:52:24.244 --> 00:52:26.344 And they will be used for supporting 00:52:26.385 --> 00:52:28.425 teachers through coaching and Ai tools 00:52:29.106 --> 00:52:30.326 research and children's learning 00:52:30.365 --> 00:52:32.327 experiences research publications and 00:52:32.367 --> 00:52:33.927 conference presentations project 00:52:34.246 --> 00:52:37.007 demonstration videos restricted access 00:52:37.128 --> 00:52:40.469 research data set and it may be processed 00:52:40.608 --> 00:52:43.329 using cloud based Ai services. 00:52:45.362 --> 00:52:48.125 They say that participation is completely 00:52:48.664 --> 00:52:49.405 voluntary. 00:52:49.887 --> 00:52:50.527 If you change your mind, 00:52:50.547 --> 00:52:52.528 you can let the teacher or research team 00:52:52.568 --> 00:52:52.769 know, 00:52:52.849 --> 00:52:54.811 and we will remove any recordings that 00:52:54.891 --> 00:52:56.333 include your child. 00:52:56.893 --> 00:52:58.755 If recordings have already been used in AI 00:52:58.775 --> 00:53:00.396 model training a group with other data 00:53:00.456 --> 00:53:00.978 prior to your 00:53:01.219 --> 00:53:02.221 through a withdrawal request, 00:53:02.240 --> 00:53:03.963 it may not be possible to remove your 00:53:04.003 --> 00:53:04.543 child's data, 00:53:04.844 --> 00:53:05.905 which is a problem you see in a 00:53:05.945 --> 00:53:07.628 lot of research studies. 00:53:07.688 --> 00:53:09.731 Once it gets anonymized, 00:53:09.891 --> 00:53:12.233 it's very challenging to change whether 00:53:12.253 --> 00:53:13.034 you can send to them. 00:53:14.155 --> 00:53:15.818 But I think this is in particular, 00:53:15.858 --> 00:53:17.059 especially because they are using 00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:17.880 cloud-based AI, 00:53:19.822 --> 00:53:24.206 is problematic uh so and and also the 00:53:24.246 --> 00:53:26.347 fact that they are still going to take 00:53:26.367 --> 00:53:27.588 these recordings they're just going to go 00:53:27.628 --> 00:53:30.469 through and remove your child from them if 00:53:30.489 --> 00:53:33.231 you if you opt out um which is 00:53:33.271 --> 00:53:37.353 obviously not like an ideal solution 00:53:37.414 --> 00:53:40.556 mistakes can always be made to that effect 00:53:40.576 --> 00:53:41.697 and how would you how do you even 00:53:41.717 --> 00:53:44.998 know the university of washington 00:53:46.811 --> 00:53:49.293 is not doing this research anymore uh they 00:53:49.333 --> 00:53:51.396 say given the early responses from parents 00:53:51.735 --> 00:53:53.137 we have terminated the study they're no 00:53:53.157 --> 00:53:55.659 longer seeking participation at any site 00:53:57.260 --> 00:54:02.023 so that's that's good once again just like 00:54:02.043 --> 00:54:04.246 with the flock stuff it's good to push 00:54:04.286 --> 00:54:06.688 back against these very invasive things 00:54:06.708 --> 00:54:09.889 that are happening in our communities in 00:54:09.929 --> 00:54:13.373 our society taking some responsibility um 00:54:14.393 --> 00:54:14.614 and 00:54:15.965 --> 00:54:17.867 making sure that i mean making sure that 00:54:17.907 --> 00:54:19.748 your children are protected their data 00:54:20.530 --> 00:54:23.753 making sure that this kind of stuff 00:54:23.954 --> 00:54:27.697 doesn't impact their futures in any way 00:54:27.717 --> 00:54:30.701 that's all super important for parents to 00:54:30.721 --> 00:54:31.262 do so 00:54:34.356 --> 00:54:37.896 So, yeah, I, you know, in this case, 00:54:37.936 --> 00:54:40.998 it's a good outcome, 00:54:41.038 --> 00:54:42.777 but I would not be surprised if this 00:54:42.858 --> 00:54:45.418 exact sort of thing gets tried by research 00:54:45.438 --> 00:54:48.880 teams and by other companies around the 00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:51.599 country and around the world in the 00:54:51.619 --> 00:54:52.001 future. 00:54:52.121 --> 00:54:52.360 I mean, 00:54:52.521 --> 00:54:56.181 already there's so many products for 00:54:56.242 --> 00:54:57.141 education that 00:54:58.463 --> 00:55:00.144 kind of surveil what children are doing in 00:55:00.184 --> 00:55:01.605 the classroom on their computers. 00:55:01.625 --> 00:55:02.826 You could look at like GoGuardian, 00:55:02.846 --> 00:55:05.106 which constantly records your screen so 00:55:05.126 --> 00:55:06.487 that that can be checked later. 00:55:07.608 --> 00:55:09.369 And this is just one step beyond that. 00:55:09.429 --> 00:55:11.228 But I wouldn't be surprised if this is 00:55:11.268 --> 00:55:13.469 the sort of thing that AI companies or 00:55:13.510 --> 00:55:15.650 other tech companies are itching to turn 00:55:15.690 --> 00:55:19.693 into a full product at some point. 00:55:22.284 --> 00:55:22.965 Yeah. 00:55:23.025 --> 00:55:25.326 And I do think also the, 00:55:25.425 --> 00:55:27.146 I think it would definitely be a benefit 00:55:27.306 --> 00:55:28.226 if there was like, you know, 00:55:28.286 --> 00:55:30.068 in the U S there was a nationwide 00:55:30.128 --> 00:55:31.768 privacy law or something, you know, 00:55:31.789 --> 00:55:32.168 that was, 00:55:32.668 --> 00:55:34.128 I think it also is like the, 00:55:34.869 --> 00:55:35.969 the protection of like, 00:55:36.070 --> 00:55:37.530 I think some of these privacy laws are 00:55:37.550 --> 00:55:37.951 like, you know, 00:55:37.990 --> 00:55:39.971 we don't allow a collection of children. 00:55:40.010 --> 00:55:42.152 Like I think it's the CCPA or something. 00:55:42.371 --> 00:55:44.592 It doesn't allow collection of data on, 00:55:45.572 --> 00:55:46.833 on minors, but it's like, 00:55:47.134 --> 00:55:48.333 what about everyone else too? 00:55:48.375 --> 00:55:49.635 Like, I think it's, 00:55:49.875 --> 00:55:51.476 Most people would probably be against this 00:55:51.496 --> 00:55:51.956 sort of thing, 00:55:52.275 --> 00:55:53.996 being recorded and then that information 00:55:54.036 --> 00:55:55.077 being sent to be trained. 00:55:56.016 --> 00:55:57.476 I think that's also another problem with 00:55:57.496 --> 00:55:59.858 these AI models is the training data. 00:56:00.498 --> 00:56:02.059 How do they delete it? 00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:04.300 Once this information gets put into an AI 00:56:04.340 --> 00:56:04.599 model, 00:56:04.900 --> 00:56:06.880 what if it contains personal information 00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:07.400 of somebody? 00:56:07.601 --> 00:56:08.161 Yeah. 00:56:08.221 --> 00:56:09.400 I mean, they said they don't delete it, 00:56:09.521 --> 00:56:11.202 so that answers that. 00:56:11.222 --> 00:56:13.802 Yeah. 00:56:13.882 --> 00:56:15.163 As far as we know, 00:56:15.202 --> 00:56:17.003 that's the case for every other AI model 00:56:17.043 --> 00:56:17.423 as well. 00:56:17.963 --> 00:56:20.106 if there's information that gets scraped 00:56:20.146 --> 00:56:21.907 by these things or that gets fed into 00:56:21.947 --> 00:56:26.152 it like uh you know that's just a 00:56:26.172 --> 00:56:33.740 black box exactly exactly yeah i think 00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:35.362 that's kind of uh 00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:39.871 everything we wanted to share about that 00:56:39.992 --> 00:56:40.452 article. 00:56:41.291 --> 00:56:43.831 We're going to get into a story about 00:56:44.351 --> 00:56:44.952 discord, 00:56:45.273 --> 00:56:47.313 rolling out some end to end encryption, 00:56:47.333 --> 00:56:47.913 which is cool. 00:56:47.972 --> 00:56:50.034 But before we dive into that, 00:56:50.853 --> 00:56:52.934 let's share some updates with what's going 00:56:53.054 --> 00:56:55.554 on within the community and our team. 00:56:56.135 --> 00:56:56.454 Jordan, 00:56:56.474 --> 00:56:58.914 why don't you start us off with some 00:56:59.315 --> 00:57:01.596 updates on the videos that's been 00:57:01.615 --> 00:57:01.956 happening? 00:57:03.717 --> 00:57:04.097 Yes. 00:57:04.157 --> 00:57:06.420 So I guess for anyone that's kind of 00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:06.940 missed it, 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.302 we put out a video last week with 00:57:10.643 --> 00:57:11.623 Naomi Brockwell, 00:57:11.824 --> 00:57:14.304 and that was an interview that Nate did. 00:57:14.985 --> 00:57:17.746 So basically we asked her some questions 00:57:17.786 --> 00:57:19.188 about, like we talked about earlier, 00:57:19.309 --> 00:57:22.490 the Surveillance Accountability Act that 00:57:22.510 --> 00:57:24.311 finally got public release. 00:57:24.472 --> 00:57:25.913 And if you haven't seen that already, 00:57:25.972 --> 00:57:26.753 definitely check it out. 00:57:26.793 --> 00:57:27.293 We also 00:57:27.855 --> 00:57:28.876 released this week. 00:57:29.699 --> 00:57:33.507 We released a bonus section of that 00:57:35.068 --> 00:57:36.849 of that video where we asked her some 00:57:37.650 --> 00:57:40.873 less privacy related questions so if 00:57:40.893 --> 00:57:42.293 that's something you're interested in you 00:57:42.313 --> 00:57:44.255 can get access to that by becoming a 00:57:44.335 --> 00:57:48.637 member at privacyguides.org donate and 00:57:49.257 --> 00:57:50.599 yeah you can definitely check that out if 00:57:50.619 --> 00:57:53.181 you're interested in extra stuff we're 00:57:53.201 --> 00:57:56.222 trying to basically offer more stuff for 00:57:56.262 --> 00:57:57.664 our members and you know 00:57:59.445 --> 00:58:01.846 give you extra perks for supporting us 00:58:01.885 --> 00:58:03.387 because we do really appreciate it. 00:58:04.347 --> 00:58:05.568 So definitely check that out. 00:58:05.608 --> 00:58:09.210 That is available on, oh, 00:58:09.250 --> 00:58:09.931 hold on a second. 00:58:11.889 --> 00:58:16.391 That is available on privacyguides.org 00:58:16.552 --> 00:58:17.172 slash videos. 00:58:17.213 --> 00:58:18.273 You can check that out there. 00:58:19.054 --> 00:58:21.476 You can see the bonus episode there and 00:58:21.556 --> 00:58:24.717 the standard episode that we released. 00:58:25.097 --> 00:58:28.681 So that's now live, the bonus section. 00:58:28.721 --> 00:58:29.782 It's only like ten minutes, 00:58:29.842 --> 00:58:31.081 but it's definitely some interesting 00:58:31.121 --> 00:58:31.382 stuff. 00:58:31.422 --> 00:58:35.905 If you're curious about Naomi's background 00:58:35.985 --> 00:58:37.166 or if you just want to hear some 00:58:37.186 --> 00:58:38.307 more of her personal thoughts, 00:58:38.367 --> 00:58:38.907 definitely check. 00:58:39.208 --> 00:58:41.809 that out as you know some cool bonus 00:58:41.849 --> 00:58:44.552 stuff to check out um and if you 00:58:44.612 --> 00:58:46.012 haven't already seen the interview with 00:58:46.052 --> 00:58:48.273 her i would definitely recommend seeing 00:58:48.313 --> 00:58:49.594 that too um 00:58:50.942 --> 00:58:52.342 And I guess on my end this week, 00:58:52.422 --> 00:58:56.286 I've been working on a video that Nate 00:58:56.326 --> 00:58:56.947 put together. 00:58:57.427 --> 00:59:00.608 He recorded and edited the basics of that 00:59:00.929 --> 00:59:02.150 written up by him as well. 00:59:02.710 --> 00:59:04.811 And I've just been editing that this week. 00:59:05.193 --> 00:59:07.213 And I'm kind of hoping it's kind of 00:59:07.233 --> 00:59:08.335 a more complex video. 00:59:08.855 --> 00:59:10.637 It's about passwords, 00:59:11.056 --> 00:59:12.737 kind of debunking some of the issues that 00:59:12.757 --> 00:59:15.260 we've had with information on the internet 00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.681 being a little bit outdated when it comes 00:59:17.702 --> 00:59:19.943 to these password-related topics. 00:59:20.523 --> 00:59:22.204 So definitely look out for that one. 00:59:22.244 --> 00:59:23.125 That'll be coming soon. 00:59:24.085 --> 00:59:25.606 It's more of a complicated edit. 00:59:25.626 --> 00:59:28.045 So I suspect it might take a little 00:59:28.065 --> 00:59:31.748 bit longer to edit because there's all 00:59:31.788 --> 00:59:34.027 sorts of stuff we need to explain visually 00:59:34.248 --> 00:59:34.889 in that video. 00:59:35.728 --> 00:59:37.028 But I think it'll also be pretty 00:59:37.048 --> 00:59:37.509 interesting. 00:59:40.369 --> 00:59:40.469 Yeah, 00:59:40.489 --> 00:59:43.490 I don't really have anything more in terms 00:59:43.530 --> 00:59:44.992 of video content we're working on. 00:59:45.391 --> 00:59:46.052 What about you, John? 00:59:46.092 --> 00:59:48.213 Is there any extra site updates you can 00:59:48.233 --> 00:59:48.873 talk about this week? 00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:51.320 Yeah, there's a couple things going on. 00:59:52.942 --> 00:59:53.862 This week and last week, 00:59:53.902 --> 00:59:57.123 I've been working on kind of a redesign 00:59:57.202 --> 00:59:59.063 for the entire website. 00:59:59.103 --> 01:00:01.824 So that's currently accessible in a GitHub 01:00:01.884 --> 01:00:02.844 PR right now, 01:00:02.884 --> 01:00:04.583 if anyone is interested in taking a look. 01:00:04.704 --> 01:00:08.304 But a couple changes that we're making to 01:00:08.405 --> 01:00:09.364 all of that that I hope we'll be 01:00:09.405 --> 01:00:11.166 able to publish soon. 01:00:11.925 --> 01:00:13.706 because I think it's time for a change. 01:00:13.726 --> 01:00:15.668 We've had the same website for quite a 01:00:15.708 --> 01:00:15.989 while, 01:00:16.048 --> 01:00:17.570 and I think there's improvements and 01:00:17.590 --> 01:00:19.411 things that we've learned that we can make 01:00:19.471 --> 01:00:20.791 it a bit easier to read and a 01:00:20.831 --> 01:00:23.413 bit easier to navigate for sure. 01:00:23.452 --> 01:00:25.114 So hopefully this helps out a bit. 01:00:25.675 --> 01:00:27.815 There's also a discussion going on on the 01:00:27.856 --> 01:00:29.597 forum right now that I opened a few 01:00:30.137 --> 01:00:30.757 hours ago, 01:00:31.659 --> 01:00:37.682 which is about a project that I want 01:00:37.722 --> 01:00:38.322 to work on, 01:00:38.523 --> 01:00:41.105 which is maintaining our own directory of 01:00:42.873 --> 01:00:44.954 Android app fingerprints for the app 01:00:44.974 --> 01:00:45.775 verifier app. 01:00:45.835 --> 01:00:47.797 I don't know if anyone is familiar with 01:00:47.838 --> 01:00:50.800 that here or uses that on Graphene OS. 01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:52.121 You can get it from a Crescent. 01:00:52.141 --> 01:00:53.643 So I know that a lot of people 01:00:54.764 --> 01:00:56.405 who are concerned about the security of 01:00:56.445 --> 01:00:57.867 what they're installing or who are on 01:00:58.047 --> 01:00:59.188 Graphene OS use this. 01:00:59.728 --> 01:01:00.931 And the way that the app works is 01:01:00.971 --> 01:01:01.610 you have to 01:01:02.791 --> 01:01:05.952 enter the fingerprint of the api of the 01:01:06.012 --> 01:01:08.954 apk signature that you get from an 01:01:08.994 --> 01:01:10.893 external trusted source so you can confirm 01:01:10.914 --> 01:01:13.414 whether it is um the correct thing that 01:01:13.434 --> 01:01:16.077 you're installing i think that we could 01:01:16.137 --> 01:01:18.376 pretty easily crowdsource a trusted list 01:01:18.438 --> 01:01:19.518 of this and i think that it would 01:01:19.557 --> 01:01:22.139 be a good benefit for the community and 01:01:22.179 --> 01:01:23.739 i think that we'd have enough people to 01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:28.684 maintain it well so that's a potential 01:01:28.724 --> 01:01:30.206 project that we're starting on it seems to 01:01:30.226 --> 01:01:32.188 have support in the on the forum so 01:01:32.208 --> 01:01:33.369 far but if you have any thoughts on 01:01:33.429 --> 01:01:35.411 it i definitely want to get people's 01:01:35.711 --> 01:01:37.653 feedback on that thread so i would 01:01:37.673 --> 01:01:38.235 highlight that 01:01:39.061 --> 01:01:41.724 Otherwise, a lot of the usual stuff, 01:01:41.923 --> 01:01:45.347 as usual, privacyguides.org slash news. 01:01:45.387 --> 01:01:47.128 You can catch up on other news stories 01:01:47.327 --> 01:01:49.670 in privacy security that we've seen in the 01:01:49.690 --> 01:01:51.831 space that we don't talk about on the 01:01:51.851 --> 01:01:54.594 show because we are a bit limited here. 01:01:54.833 --> 01:01:57.876 We discuss these news stories a bit more 01:01:58.317 --> 01:02:00.157 than just read through them. 01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:02.800 So we can't get through them all or 01:02:02.860 --> 01:02:05.021 we'd be here for like six hours every 01:02:05.061 --> 01:02:05.663 live stream. 01:02:06.182 --> 01:02:06.463 But... 01:02:07.304 --> 01:02:08.965 There's a lot of good stuff there as 01:02:09.045 --> 01:02:09.284 well, 01:02:09.304 --> 01:02:10.806 and it's a good place to stay up 01:02:10.826 --> 01:02:13.728 to date in addition to our forum. 01:02:14.028 --> 01:02:17.751 So that's kind of the main things that 01:02:19.231 --> 01:02:20.753 I'm aware of for this week. 01:02:21.393 --> 01:02:23.335 All of the stuff that we work on 01:02:23.355 --> 01:02:24.436 at Privacy Guides, of course, 01:02:24.556 --> 01:02:26.797 it's made possible by our supporters. 01:02:27.358 --> 01:02:27.858 Like you said, 01:02:28.358 --> 01:02:30.260 if you go to privacyguides.org slash 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:31.179 donate, 01:02:31.199 --> 01:02:33.442 you can send us a one-time donation, 01:02:33.641 --> 01:02:34.722 or you can sign up for... 01:02:35.804 --> 01:02:36.864 a monthly membership, 01:02:36.885 --> 01:02:39.927 which would include access to early access 01:02:39.947 --> 01:02:43.628 videos and the bonus questions and 01:02:43.708 --> 01:02:45.869 interviews and other exclusive videos like 01:02:46.389 --> 01:02:48.050 the ones Jordan just talked about. 01:02:49.650 --> 01:02:52.172 This is the only bonus questions video 01:02:52.192 --> 01:02:54.452 that we've done for interviews so far, 01:02:55.132 --> 01:02:56.773 but it's something that we hope to 01:02:56.813 --> 01:02:57.753 continue doing 01:03:00.210 --> 01:03:02.092 for for future interviews that we do we 01:03:02.132 --> 01:03:03.532 have and we have a couple lined up 01:03:03.552 --> 01:03:05.353 and i think getting people's personal 01:03:05.554 --> 01:03:07.974 perspectives on different things in the in 01:03:07.994 --> 01:03:12.317 this space is is cool and useful uh 01:03:12.416 --> 01:03:14.617 another way to support us is by picking 01:03:14.657 --> 01:03:17.059 up some swag at shop.privacyguides.org i 01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:20.561 have a water bottle says privacy guys on 01:03:20.581 --> 01:03:22.061 it i like this water bottle a lot 01:03:22.722 --> 01:03:25.282 uh there's some more 01:03:27.081 --> 01:03:30.403 Maybe boring merch like this one that just 01:03:30.423 --> 01:03:31.244 says privacy, guys. 01:03:31.264 --> 01:03:32.945 But we have some good designs there as 01:03:33.085 --> 01:03:35.547 well if people are more interested in the 01:03:35.648 --> 01:03:36.829 activism side of things. 01:03:38.670 --> 01:03:40.672 I think we have some good stuff that 01:03:40.713 --> 01:03:41.873 you might be interested in. 01:03:41.974 --> 01:03:43.394 So you can consider checking it out. 01:03:45.376 --> 01:03:45.876 As always, 01:03:45.896 --> 01:03:48.500 I'll remind you that Privacy Guides is a 01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:50.001 nonprofit project. 01:03:50.121 --> 01:03:51.543 We research, 01:03:51.623 --> 01:03:54.286 we share privacy-related information, 01:03:54.465 --> 01:03:57.188 and we facilitate communities on our forum 01:03:57.208 --> 01:03:59.331 and matrix where people can talk about 01:03:59.371 --> 01:04:00.693 this stuff, ask questions, 01:04:00.753 --> 01:04:02.856 get advice about staying private online 01:04:03.016 --> 01:04:05.177 and preserving your digital rights. 01:04:06.541 --> 01:04:09.163 So that's my spiel with all of that 01:04:09.262 --> 01:04:09.862 out of the way. 01:04:10.483 --> 01:04:10.824 Jordan, 01:04:10.844 --> 01:04:13.786 why don't you take us away with our 01:04:14.445 --> 01:04:15.445 next story here? 01:04:15.547 --> 01:04:16.126 Or is it my turn? 01:04:16.206 --> 01:04:17.146 Wait, who just did that one? 01:04:19.028 --> 01:04:20.809 I think it's your turn if you want 01:04:20.829 --> 01:04:22.831 to take this next story about Discord. 01:04:23.050 --> 01:04:23.710 I will do this. 01:04:26.155 --> 01:04:27.356 If my computer works, 01:04:27.396 --> 01:04:29.657 why can't I like this? 01:04:29.697 --> 01:04:29.978 Sorry. 01:04:30.777 --> 01:04:31.938 This is from Bleeping Computer. 01:04:32.099 --> 01:04:34.701 Discord rolls out end-to-end encryption on 01:04:34.780 --> 01:04:37.623 voice and video calls, which is very cool. 01:04:37.682 --> 01:04:39.684 Discord has announced that all voice and 01:04:39.704 --> 01:04:41.166 video calls through the communication 01:04:41.186 --> 01:04:43.327 platform are now protected by default, 01:04:43.688 --> 01:04:44.507 which is important, 01:04:45.248 --> 01:04:46.610 with end-to-end encryption. 01:04:46.730 --> 01:04:49.032 The implementation was completed in March. 01:04:49.351 --> 01:04:51.233 Extensive at-scale testing has given 01:04:51.293 --> 01:04:52.974 Discord the confidence to formally 01:04:52.994 --> 01:04:53.215 implement 01:04:53.675 --> 01:04:55.297 announce the end-to-end encrypted 01:04:55.416 --> 01:04:57.679 deployment now and to start removing 01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:00.643 client code that supports unencrypted 01:05:00.682 --> 01:05:01.143 fallback. 01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:07.960 There's some technical details here. 01:05:08.360 --> 01:05:10.442 The migration to end-to-end encryption was 01:05:10.481 --> 01:05:12.943 achieved by extending the open source 01:05:13.003 --> 01:05:14.184 encryption protocol, Dave, 01:05:14.204 --> 01:05:16.425 to support all of the platforms where 01:05:16.445 --> 01:05:18.505 Discord clients run, desktop, mobile, 01:05:18.565 --> 01:05:20.545 web browsers, PlayStation, Xbox, 01:05:21.586 --> 01:05:23.146 and Discord APKs. 01:05:23.507 --> 01:05:27.648 I think that is very cool of them 01:05:27.728 --> 01:05:29.530 to work on 01:05:31.201 --> 01:05:32.702 stuff that's open source and stuff that 01:05:32.722 --> 01:05:35.684 could potentially be adopted by other 01:05:36.324 --> 01:05:39.347 video chat providers because Discord 01:05:40.329 --> 01:05:42.130 clearly has the resources to build 01:05:42.190 --> 01:05:44.251 something that works and works well and 01:05:44.291 --> 01:05:47.994 works at scale that smaller projects and 01:05:48.034 --> 01:05:49.757 smaller companies probably wouldn't be 01:05:49.797 --> 01:05:50.898 able to do or wouldn't be able to 01:05:50.918 --> 01:05:51.597 do very well. 01:05:52.199 --> 01:05:52.418 So... 01:05:54.820 --> 01:05:55.079 Yeah, 01:05:55.701 --> 01:05:57.621 contributing to open source is always 01:05:57.681 --> 01:05:57.960 good. 01:05:58.780 --> 01:06:00.601 This Bleeping Computer article says that 01:06:01.521 --> 01:06:03.242 this protocol called Dave was first 01:06:03.322 --> 01:06:05.583 introduced in September of twenty twenty 01:06:05.702 --> 01:06:06.103 four, 01:06:06.663 --> 01:06:10.344 and it was developed in with assistance in 01:06:10.423 --> 01:06:11.885 auditing from Trail of Bits, 01:06:12.065 --> 01:06:15.146 which is a pretty reputable security 01:06:15.306 --> 01:06:18.085 auditing firm when it when it comes to 01:06:18.387 --> 01:06:19.646 encryption and all of that stuff. 01:06:19.686 --> 01:06:19.847 So 01:06:21.222 --> 01:06:23.282 Hopefully, it is all done well. 01:06:23.384 --> 01:06:26.784 And I think that this is a big 01:06:26.824 --> 01:06:28.244 upgrade for Discord. 01:06:28.324 --> 01:06:34.005 I believe Discord has already added 01:06:34.465 --> 01:06:38.967 end-to-end encryption for, no, 01:06:39.007 --> 01:06:42.387 I don't think they have it for text 01:06:42.427 --> 01:06:45.088 messages yet, unless their DMs do. 01:06:45.148 --> 01:06:46.248 I'd have to look this up quick, 01:06:46.329 --> 01:06:48.889 unless anyone knows in the chat. 01:06:50.646 --> 01:06:53.027 But at least for voice, it's something... 01:06:53.146 --> 01:06:56.507 I know that Discord is mainly a chat 01:06:56.568 --> 01:06:56.688 app, 01:06:56.708 --> 01:06:58.788 but I know that video calls and voice 01:06:58.827 --> 01:07:00.809 calls are very extensively used by Discord 01:07:01.028 --> 01:07:01.608 users as well. 01:07:01.648 --> 01:07:03.550 So this is not like a super insignificant 01:07:03.869 --> 01:07:04.250 change. 01:07:04.269 --> 01:07:06.490 There's some platforms that rarely, 01:07:06.530 --> 01:07:10.112 if ever, get video calls used on them. 01:07:11.311 --> 01:07:12.672 But this is not one of them. 01:07:12.711 --> 01:07:13.472 It's very common. 01:07:13.552 --> 01:07:16.092 So having this available by default, 01:07:16.112 --> 01:07:17.554 at least on videos, is... 01:07:19.396 --> 01:07:20.836 It's great for everyone, I think. 01:07:21.097 --> 01:07:25.599 And as usual, end-to-end encryption, 01:07:25.659 --> 01:07:27.782 I think, not only benefits users, 01:07:27.802 --> 01:07:29.123 but it also benefits these companies. 01:07:29.143 --> 01:07:30.764 They don't need all of this data. 01:07:31.804 --> 01:07:34.146 And kind of distancing themselves from 01:07:34.226 --> 01:07:36.387 potentially that liability is also good 01:07:36.407 --> 01:07:36.987 for businesses. 01:07:37.007 --> 01:07:39.170 So it kind of works out for everyone 01:07:39.190 --> 01:07:41.791 on both ends to support encryption as much 01:07:41.811 --> 01:07:42.331 as possible, 01:07:42.452 --> 01:07:46.414 which is why more companies should work on 01:07:46.454 --> 01:07:47.155 implementing it. 01:07:48.315 --> 01:07:52.659 Did you see any interesting stuff in this 01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:55.099 article, Jordan? 01:07:55.420 --> 01:07:57.641 No, I think you covered the main stuff. 01:07:57.702 --> 01:07:58.581 I do want to add, though, 01:07:58.702 --> 01:08:01.483 you did hint that possibly Discord might 01:08:01.503 --> 01:08:03.485 have encrypted DMs or anything like that. 01:08:03.684 --> 01:08:04.465 At this stage, 01:08:05.005 --> 01:08:06.706 that's not something that they've said 01:08:06.726 --> 01:08:08.748 that they're going to do. 01:08:08.827 --> 01:08:10.548 I think they've said in a couple of 01:08:10.588 --> 01:08:11.449 times on Twitter 01:08:12.891 --> 01:08:14.693 know when they've been pressured on this 01:08:14.753 --> 01:08:16.715 and people have asked them in questions 01:08:16.755 --> 01:08:19.737 like why why aren't dms encrypted like you 01:08:19.756 --> 01:08:21.559 know it kind of makes sense this should 01:08:21.599 --> 01:08:27.884 be something that you do um confusingly 01:08:27.923 --> 01:08:29.505 worded because it said that the encryption 01:08:30.466 --> 01:08:32.487 layer covers dms but then i realized they 01:08:32.506 --> 01:08:34.748 probably just spent video calls in dms i 01:08:34.769 --> 01:08:35.810 don't know if i would call those 01:08:36.498 --> 01:08:38.480 DMs them because it's not a message. 01:08:38.581 --> 01:08:40.983 But whatever, whatever, bleepy computer. 01:08:42.064 --> 01:08:43.045 We got there eventually. 01:08:43.505 --> 01:08:44.845 I did want to highlight one thing in 01:08:44.886 --> 01:08:46.667 this article that I didn't mention, 01:08:46.707 --> 01:08:50.931 which is that they had issues with this 01:08:50.992 --> 01:08:54.395 encryption layer in Firefox, 01:08:55.716 --> 01:08:57.257 with their web client in Firefox. 01:08:57.457 --> 01:08:59.378 And instead of just doing what I think 01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:00.119 a lot of companies, 01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:00.640 especially 01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:03.480 Google, of course, because they're biased. 01:09:03.581 --> 01:09:05.341 But what a lot of companies would probably 01:09:05.381 --> 01:09:06.761 do and just block Firefox and say, 01:09:06.782 --> 01:09:08.422 you got to use got to use chromium 01:09:08.443 --> 01:09:08.882 to do this. 01:09:09.243 --> 01:09:11.064 Discord actually worked with Mozilla to 01:09:11.543 --> 01:09:13.005 solve those problems and get it working. 01:09:13.045 --> 01:09:16.065 So that's another cool thing that they're 01:09:16.086 --> 01:09:16.365 doing. 01:09:16.586 --> 01:09:19.266 Would I recommend Discord overall? 01:09:20.408 --> 01:09:20.908 Probably not, 01:09:20.988 --> 01:09:22.569 especially without encrypted messages. 01:09:24.622 --> 01:09:26.402 But a lot of people use it anyways. 01:09:26.802 --> 01:09:30.203 A lot of even open source projects use 01:09:30.224 --> 01:09:30.703 it anyways. 01:09:30.783 --> 01:09:34.005 So if you're in certain open source spaces 01:09:34.104 --> 01:09:36.104 even, it is sort of unavoidable, 01:09:36.145 --> 01:09:36.704 unfortunately. 01:09:36.765 --> 01:09:40.985 So yeah, I think it's good overall. 01:09:41.305 --> 01:09:43.886 It's always good even with these less 01:09:43.947 --> 01:09:46.627 privacy-respecting products to... 01:09:48.234 --> 01:09:49.774 move in the direction of them being more 01:09:49.814 --> 01:09:51.716 privacy respecting because not only does 01:09:51.775 --> 01:09:53.216 it benefit the users but it kind of 01:09:53.275 --> 01:09:56.016 normalizes this stuff it makes more people 01:09:56.136 --> 01:09:57.877 expect end-to-end encryption because 01:09:57.898 --> 01:10:00.078 they'll be like well discord has this and 01:10:00.158 --> 01:10:02.239 this other app doesn't so that's a selling 01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:04.560 point for discord and people will need to 01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:06.181 add end-to-end encryption if they want to 01:10:06.202 --> 01:10:08.162 compete and i think that that is a 01:10:08.182 --> 01:10:10.182 good thing you should always all of these 01:10:10.243 --> 01:10:12.224 products should always be competing on 01:10:12.344 --> 01:10:13.885 security features because that's how we 01:10:13.944 --> 01:10:16.105 all that's how we all benefit 01:10:18.302 --> 01:10:20.765 Yeah, and I also think, you know, 01:10:21.045 --> 01:10:22.525 we're seeing companies now that are, like, 01:10:23.765 --> 01:10:25.487 pulling out of encryption. 01:10:25.527 --> 01:10:27.788 Like, we saw Instagram DMs are, like, 01:10:27.809 --> 01:10:29.529 they're discontinuing encryption on that 01:10:29.550 --> 01:10:30.229 for some reason. 01:10:30.250 --> 01:10:30.810 Like, what? 01:10:30.871 --> 01:10:31.631 What is going on there? 01:10:31.650 --> 01:10:35.113 Like, we need to, when companies start, 01:10:35.252 --> 01:10:39.355 you know, saying that this is too hard, 01:10:39.395 --> 01:10:40.015 this is, like, 01:10:40.136 --> 01:10:41.877 causing too much friction or, like, 01:10:42.436 --> 01:10:43.877 you know, it wasn't making sense. 01:10:43.978 --> 01:10:44.297 Yeah. 01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:46.680 There's plenty of platforms that do it. 01:10:47.100 --> 01:10:48.319 Signal is everything. 01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:50.100 Every single thing through Signal is 01:10:50.140 --> 01:10:52.061 encrypted and it works perfectly fine. 01:10:52.641 --> 01:10:53.363 So, you know, 01:10:53.422 --> 01:10:57.184 I think this excuse or like, you know, 01:10:57.384 --> 01:10:58.604 thing is like kind of a little bit 01:10:58.645 --> 01:10:59.664 ridiculous, I think. 01:11:02.372 --> 01:11:04.493 I feel like discord was almost filling a 01:11:04.554 --> 01:11:06.854 role like similar to zoom for some people. 01:11:06.895 --> 01:11:08.777 Like they were doing like company meetings 01:11:09.056 --> 01:11:09.658 on discord. 01:11:09.698 --> 01:11:10.238 Like people, 01:11:10.497 --> 01:11:12.019 people use it for a lot of stuff. 01:11:12.300 --> 01:11:12.899 Um, 01:11:12.939 --> 01:11:14.400 so it kind of makes sense why they 01:11:14.501 --> 01:11:18.043 finally pushed to have this enabled on 01:11:18.123 --> 01:11:18.783 every chat. 01:11:19.104 --> 01:11:19.225 Um, 01:11:20.899 --> 01:11:23.220 But I think it's a good start. 01:11:23.421 --> 01:11:26.323 But I think stuff like if we had, 01:11:27.523 --> 01:11:29.244 it's obviously not a good service from a 01:11:29.345 --> 01:11:30.625 privacy perspective. 01:11:31.445 --> 01:11:33.287 It all runs on Google Cloud 01:11:33.386 --> 01:11:34.887 infrastructure. 01:11:36.009 --> 01:11:38.770 Its business model is questionable, 01:11:38.871 --> 01:11:39.411 I would say. 01:11:40.511 --> 01:11:43.894 Having Nitro and having a shop and all 01:11:43.934 --> 01:11:44.454 these things, 01:11:45.015 --> 01:11:47.936 I think it's a better business model than 01:11:48.237 --> 01:11:49.198 WhatsApp, let's say. 01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:53.680 it's still a little bit sus and I 01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:57.864 think they're they're kind of uh vying to 01:11:57.904 --> 01:11:59.926 be purchased and I think when that does 01:11:59.966 --> 01:12:03.088 happen they're gonna become a lot less 01:12:03.189 --> 01:12:05.331 privacy uh and a lot less 01:12:07.377 --> 01:12:08.679 freedom oriented. 01:12:08.738 --> 01:12:09.698 Like, you know, 01:12:09.719 --> 01:12:11.119 they're not going to care about supporting 01:12:11.180 --> 01:12:11.619 Firefox. 01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:12.961 They're not going to spend the development 01:12:13.001 --> 01:12:14.742 time to do that once they get purchased, 01:12:15.162 --> 01:12:16.483 which I think is going to happen. 01:12:17.563 --> 01:12:18.684 I think they're going to get bought by 01:12:18.823 --> 01:12:19.203 someone. 01:12:19.304 --> 01:12:19.703 It's just, 01:12:20.083 --> 01:12:21.805 they're so big at this point that I 01:12:21.845 --> 01:12:23.765 think, you know, 01:12:23.865 --> 01:12:26.247 it's their value is probably ridiculously 01:12:26.307 --> 01:12:27.228 large at this point, 01:12:27.268 --> 01:12:29.729 because if you think of any online 01:12:29.769 --> 01:12:31.949 communities, they've got a discord server. 01:12:33.631 --> 01:12:35.332 So it's kind of become very ubiquitous, 01:12:35.391 --> 01:12:37.113 especially when it comes to gaming stuff. 01:12:37.779 --> 01:12:38.359 Yeah, 01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:41.862 that's the problem with this VC-funded 01:12:41.881 --> 01:12:42.301 stuff. 01:12:43.563 --> 01:12:47.125 You either have to make way more money 01:12:47.145 --> 01:12:48.426 than Discord is probably making, 01:12:48.546 --> 01:12:50.167 or you've got to be acquired by a 01:12:50.207 --> 01:12:51.667 company that is doing that. 01:12:54.350 --> 01:12:55.189 So yeah, 01:12:55.210 --> 01:12:57.051 Discord has stuck around this long, 01:12:57.270 --> 01:12:58.372 but who knows in the future. 01:12:58.891 --> 01:13:00.554 It is very easy to see why... 01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:06.670 people have switched to discord, the UI, 01:13:06.730 --> 01:13:07.131 the user, 01:13:08.153 --> 01:13:10.818 the interface and the experience is for 01:13:10.877 --> 01:13:11.980 some reason remains 01:13:12.881 --> 01:13:16.323 very unique i don't know why more people 01:13:16.462 --> 01:13:19.904 are not just doing what discord is discord 01:13:20.605 --> 01:13:22.907 pretty much just did what slack does 01:13:23.106 --> 01:13:25.548 except slack is absurdly expensive and 01:13:25.689 --> 01:13:28.890 annoying to use and discord is not um 01:13:29.890 --> 01:13:32.212 and there's been really no development in 01:13:32.273 --> 01:13:33.694 other spaces since which is 01:13:34.658 --> 01:13:36.479 is unfortunate i've always thought that 01:13:37.220 --> 01:13:40.140 matrix and element clearly need to just 01:13:40.820 --> 01:13:44.362 copy discord set up uh these like having 01:13:44.641 --> 01:13:47.443 roles and having colored usernames and 01:13:47.483 --> 01:13:49.823 having all of your communities in one 01:13:50.123 --> 01:13:52.823 sidebar and having easily sorted rooms and 01:13:52.844 --> 01:13:55.005 having all of this stuff like that is 01:13:55.385 --> 01:13:57.345 extremely useful for communities and 01:13:58.265 --> 01:13:59.507 Matrix and Element, 01:14:00.809 --> 01:14:02.511 as well as pretty much all other chat 01:14:02.530 --> 01:14:02.952 platforms, 01:14:02.992 --> 01:14:05.715 just refuse to do the same thing. 01:14:05.755 --> 01:14:08.037 Like, if you see something that's good, 01:14:08.537 --> 01:14:10.820 you could just copy it. 01:14:11.301 --> 01:14:12.944 I would be fine with that. 01:14:16.087 --> 01:14:16.528 But they don't. 01:14:18.856 --> 01:14:19.738 Somebody in the chat said, 01:14:19.778 --> 01:14:20.797 check out Fluxer. 01:14:20.978 --> 01:14:22.800 It's an AGPL complete Discord clone. 01:14:23.140 --> 01:14:24.680 I did look at Fluxer a while ago, 01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:25.981 and it seems very cool. 01:14:26.362 --> 01:14:27.563 It actually does seem like the most 01:14:27.603 --> 01:14:29.444 promising potential replacement. 01:14:29.804 --> 01:14:30.824 I got to look at it again because 01:14:30.845 --> 01:14:31.744 I haven't looked recently. 01:14:35.268 --> 01:14:35.467 It... 01:14:38.494 --> 01:14:41.037 I'm really hoping we can find an 01:14:41.096 --> 01:14:44.378 alternative that supports Federation. 01:14:45.539 --> 01:14:48.481 There's that other Discord alternative 01:14:48.521 --> 01:14:50.462 that I think it's called Revolt. 01:14:50.523 --> 01:14:51.663 I can't remember the name. 01:14:51.684 --> 01:14:52.925 They like rebranded or something. 01:14:52.984 --> 01:14:54.105 So it's confusing in my mind. 01:14:54.405 --> 01:14:58.347 But they are like an open source thing, 01:14:58.389 --> 01:15:00.229 but they have a worse experience in my 01:15:00.250 --> 01:15:00.630 opinion. 01:15:00.649 --> 01:15:02.511 And also it's just one centralized 01:15:02.551 --> 01:15:02.831 service. 01:15:02.871 --> 01:15:04.212 And I think we're in a bad place 01:15:04.271 --> 01:15:04.693 if we're 01:15:05.434 --> 01:15:07.663 swapping out one centralized service for 01:15:07.703 --> 01:15:09.390 another, even if it is open source. 01:15:10.409 --> 01:15:12.551 especially if it's not encrypted because 01:15:12.570 --> 01:15:14.552 it is just putting all of your eggs 01:15:14.592 --> 01:15:15.773 in one basket, basically. 01:15:15.813 --> 01:15:18.375 But Fluxer does have Federation on their 01:15:18.875 --> 01:15:19.395 roadmap, 01:15:19.956 --> 01:15:23.158 so I'm very hopeful that they can do 01:15:23.217 --> 01:15:23.978 it and get it done. 01:15:24.658 --> 01:15:28.541 We have seen other projects and other even 01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:30.261 chat projects say that they're going to do 01:15:30.301 --> 01:15:32.243 Federation and then they never get around 01:15:32.264 --> 01:15:34.385 to it because unfortunately it is a it 01:15:34.425 --> 01:15:36.685 is a challenging problem to solve. 01:15:37.266 --> 01:15:37.587 But 01:15:40.140 --> 01:15:41.701 I don't think you have to do federation 01:15:41.761 --> 01:15:43.742 in the way that Matrix does it, 01:15:43.782 --> 01:15:47.523 which is extremely inefficient and weird 01:15:47.563 --> 01:15:49.604 because all of the servers in a federation 01:15:49.644 --> 01:15:51.805 basically have to sync data with each 01:15:51.864 --> 01:15:53.105 other and they all have to store all 01:15:53.145 --> 01:15:53.926 of that information. 01:15:54.706 --> 01:15:55.806 I think a system... 01:15:57.146 --> 01:15:58.828 more like Mastodon where there are like 01:15:58.887 --> 01:16:00.228 centralized servers, 01:16:00.268 --> 01:16:02.088 but you can access all of them in 01:16:02.588 --> 01:16:04.590 the same UI would be very beneficial for 01:16:04.630 --> 01:16:04.909 people. 01:16:04.970 --> 01:16:05.810 So like, for example, 01:16:05.831 --> 01:16:08.292 we could host a privacy guides Fluxer 01:16:08.332 --> 01:16:08.671 server. 01:16:08.912 --> 01:16:09.952 But then if you go to the main 01:16:09.992 --> 01:16:10.493 Fluxer app, 01:16:10.512 --> 01:16:12.613 you could still access it and also other 01:16:12.814 --> 01:16:14.014 Fluxer servers that you see. 01:16:14.333 --> 01:16:16.135 So that is something I hope happens. 01:16:17.095 --> 01:16:18.975 Or if it doesn't happen with Fluxer, 01:16:19.136 --> 01:16:21.296 I hope some other app does it. 01:16:21.457 --> 01:16:23.118 I'm just really hoping I just really 01:16:23.158 --> 01:16:23.957 hoping someone does it. 01:16:23.978 --> 01:16:25.198 It's probably one of the top things that 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:25.479 I would 01:16:26.118 --> 01:16:30.761 hope to see because right now I've kind 01:16:30.820 --> 01:16:33.181 of got all of these chats going in 01:16:33.322 --> 01:16:36.122 signal which is okay but it's clearly not 01:16:36.603 --> 01:16:39.324 the same level of organization as 01:16:39.744 --> 01:16:43.907 something like discord and not everyone is 01:16:43.966 --> 01:16:45.827 willing to join public signal groups 01:16:45.867 --> 01:16:47.988 because signal shares a lot of information 01:16:48.007 --> 01:16:49.729 you can direct message anyone in there you 01:16:49.769 --> 01:16:51.850 can't really block that uh so 01:16:53.412 --> 01:16:53.672 Yeah, 01:16:53.752 --> 01:16:54.895 at least you don't have to share your 01:16:54.914 --> 01:16:55.835 phone number anymore. 01:16:56.076 --> 01:16:57.777 So Signal has improved in that regard, 01:16:57.796 --> 01:17:01.640 but it's not at all even close to 01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:03.863 replacing Discord for a lot of people, 01:17:03.884 --> 01:17:04.444 unfortunately. 01:17:04.503 --> 01:17:06.666 So there's got to be another app. 01:17:07.846 --> 01:17:10.210 And hopefully it happens sooner rather 01:17:10.250 --> 01:17:11.251 than later, but I guess we'll see. 01:17:12.841 --> 01:17:15.042 Yeah, I think also Discord is kind of, 01:17:16.264 --> 01:17:18.404 it's become like sort of a centralized 01:17:18.463 --> 01:17:20.465 place where a lot of communities are now. 01:17:21.006 --> 01:17:22.666 And I feel like getting people to move 01:17:24.787 --> 01:17:27.408 is going to be a challenge unless 01:17:27.427 --> 01:17:28.969 something else comes along that is like 01:17:29.509 --> 01:17:31.750 superior to Discord in every possible way. 01:17:31.789 --> 01:17:31.949 You know, 01:17:32.010 --> 01:17:35.511 I think if they are like this Fluxer 01:17:35.532 --> 01:17:35.832 project, 01:17:35.851 --> 01:17:38.853 I haven't heard of this before today, but, 01:17:38.912 --> 01:17:40.394 you know, if they are able to, 01:17:42.386 --> 01:17:44.386 create something that does allow like 01:17:44.426 --> 01:17:45.887 federation and stuff like that. 01:17:45.908 --> 01:17:47.127 Like, I think that's going to be, 01:17:47.668 --> 01:17:49.368 that's going to solve one of the, 01:17:49.569 --> 01:17:52.131 the biggest issues that the discord has, 01:17:52.150 --> 01:17:55.271 which is everything is just centralized on 01:17:55.332 --> 01:17:56.972 discord, which is, 01:17:58.623 --> 01:18:00.265 I would argue is a little bit of 01:18:00.284 --> 01:18:01.626 a problem because, you know, 01:18:01.926 --> 01:18:02.947 it gives them kind of a lot of 01:18:02.987 --> 01:18:04.427 control over the communities that are 01:18:04.448 --> 01:18:04.688 there. 01:18:05.047 --> 01:18:06.149 Um, whereas, you know, 01:18:06.288 --> 01:18:08.250 like what we've done is, you know, 01:18:08.289 --> 01:18:10.292 Jonah's set up like a forum for everybody 01:18:10.332 --> 01:18:12.052 to discuss stuff on and that's all like 01:18:12.113 --> 01:18:12.512 public. 01:18:12.592 --> 01:18:14.675 You don't need to provide like personal 01:18:14.694 --> 01:18:15.675 information and stuff. 01:18:16.376 --> 01:18:17.555 I think we should go back to, 01:18:17.877 --> 01:18:20.057 should go back to forums and stop putting 01:18:20.118 --> 01:18:21.798 everything on like discord service. 01:18:21.819 --> 01:18:22.198 Cause yeah, 01:18:23.180 --> 01:18:26.801 I'm kind of over that method of putting 01:18:26.841 --> 01:18:27.782 information out there. 01:18:27.841 --> 01:18:29.422 It's not very easy to search. 01:18:29.462 --> 01:18:30.404 I don't know. 01:18:30.623 --> 01:18:32.965 But maybe I'm becoming too old, 01:18:32.984 --> 01:18:34.865 and that is too cool. 01:18:35.445 --> 01:18:36.646 That's just the cool new thing. 01:18:38.145 --> 01:18:40.228 No, searchable information is always good. 01:18:40.328 --> 01:18:43.972 And I think the messaging space is ripe 01:18:44.073 --> 01:18:45.875 for a Discord replacement. 01:18:45.914 --> 01:18:47.195 Because, I mean, 01:18:47.336 --> 01:18:48.917 I agree it's going to be very challenging 01:18:48.957 --> 01:18:50.140 to get a lot of people to switch, 01:18:50.159 --> 01:18:52.122 especially right away. 01:18:52.481 --> 01:18:56.185 But I think the moment Fluxer implements 01:18:56.225 --> 01:18:58.007 Federation, for example, or maybe... 01:18:59.170 --> 01:19:01.711 another federated app comes out for 01:19:01.751 --> 01:19:04.832 messaging that lets you run a centralized 01:19:04.853 --> 01:19:06.332 service so you can control the user 01:19:06.394 --> 01:19:06.953 experience. 01:19:07.354 --> 01:19:09.055 I think a lot of open source projects 01:19:09.095 --> 01:19:12.136 especially will switch to that. 01:19:13.096 --> 01:19:14.277 There are still a good amount of 01:19:14.296 --> 01:19:16.457 communities on Matrix and we saw a lot 01:19:16.497 --> 01:19:19.739 of them switch when Matrix first came out 01:19:19.819 --> 01:19:22.600 and got good because it was better than 01:19:22.780 --> 01:19:24.442 IRC for a lot of people. 01:19:25.563 --> 01:19:25.882 But 01:19:27.907 --> 01:19:30.488 I think the user experience of Matrix at 01:19:30.507 --> 01:19:32.469 the end of the day, even now, 01:19:32.509 --> 01:19:33.810 it's not up to par. 01:19:33.850 --> 01:19:36.411 It's not as fast. 01:19:36.650 --> 01:19:39.912 It's not as nice as something like 01:19:40.332 --> 01:19:40.872 Discord. 01:19:40.891 --> 01:19:41.412 And I think... 01:19:42.412 --> 01:19:44.573 open source projects had this problem 01:19:44.632 --> 01:19:46.475 where they want to have chat rooms on 01:19:46.515 --> 01:19:48.336 matrix but some people would be joining 01:19:48.376 --> 01:19:51.438 with matrix.org which is a terrible server 01:19:51.478 --> 01:19:53.378 to be using or would be joining with 01:19:53.418 --> 01:19:57.282 some other bad servers or would be you 01:19:57.301 --> 01:19:58.983 know they can't control the experience of 01:19:59.002 --> 01:20:01.743 the end users so a lot of these 01:20:01.823 --> 01:20:03.305 uh a lot of these open source projects 01:20:03.364 --> 01:20:03.685 end up 01:20:04.345 --> 01:20:06.346 opening the their own servers to 01:20:06.367 --> 01:20:07.587 registration so they can at least 01:20:07.608 --> 01:20:09.349 guarantee something but then that's a huge 01:20:09.448 --> 01:20:12.270 undertaking to to like run a mozilla.org 01:20:12.329 --> 01:20:14.551 server for to just to the public to 01:20:14.591 --> 01:20:16.752 a ton of people like that requires a 01:20:16.792 --> 01:20:18.292 lot of space and processing power so 01:20:19.634 --> 01:20:23.114 matrix a very a very hard solution i 01:20:23.135 --> 01:20:24.796 think for projects to stick with but 01:20:25.015 --> 01:20:27.797 something more lightweight and 01:20:28.738 --> 01:20:31.121 not focused on like full decentralization 01:20:31.161 --> 01:20:33.023 but more focused on just letting people 01:20:33.443 --> 01:20:37.487 self-host their own communities i think uh 01:20:37.506 --> 01:20:39.088 i think that that will convince a lot 01:20:39.149 --> 01:20:41.872 of open source projects to switch i i'm 01:20:41.912 --> 01:20:43.273 pretty certain of it and i think that 01:20:43.314 --> 01:20:45.296 if that happens that's that's typically 01:20:45.336 --> 01:20:47.698 how we see change especially online 01:20:47.778 --> 01:20:49.319 because that 01:20:50.409 --> 01:20:52.490 that once all the technical people switch 01:20:52.551 --> 01:20:54.270 i think that pulls in other people it'll 01:20:54.310 --> 01:20:56.992 pull in the gaming space next because 01:20:57.011 --> 01:20:59.552 they're that's pretty tech adjacent a lot 01:20:59.592 --> 01:21:01.453 of those people are also very techy and 01:21:01.493 --> 01:21:03.953 then that'll pull in even more mainstreams 01:21:03.993 --> 01:21:05.594 i think that's the sort of way that 01:21:05.654 --> 01:21:08.055 these projects become mainstream but they 01:21:08.074 --> 01:21:09.895 have to be usable they have to be 01:21:10.015 --> 01:21:11.895 usable by a lot of people and have 01:21:11.916 --> 01:21:15.136 a good experience as well as adoption uh 01:21:15.197 --> 01:21:18.478 so haven't seen a messenger that does all 01:21:18.518 --> 01:21:19.497 of that yet but 01:21:21.248 --> 01:21:22.090 Maybe this will be it. 01:21:22.409 --> 01:21:23.689 Or maybe another one will be it. 01:21:23.710 --> 01:21:24.230 I don't know. 01:21:24.411 --> 01:21:26.591 But hopefully, again, 01:21:26.652 --> 01:21:27.412 hopefully something soon. 01:21:27.432 --> 01:21:30.173 Yeah, and I think the most, 01:21:30.453 --> 01:21:31.875 like the most important part, though, 01:21:31.914 --> 01:21:32.194 is like, 01:21:32.274 --> 01:21:33.536 I feel like it needs to be, 01:21:34.377 --> 01:21:37.278 we keep making this mistake, like Skype, 01:21:37.358 --> 01:21:39.219 I remember everyone used to be on Skype, 01:21:39.458 --> 01:21:41.359 and then everyone moved to Discord, 01:21:41.381 --> 01:21:42.661 or like everyone was on TeamSpeak, 01:21:42.680 --> 01:21:43.542 and they moved to Discord. 01:21:43.582 --> 01:21:43.921 And it's like, 01:21:45.235 --> 01:21:47.837 can we move to, like, an open platform? 01:21:47.877 --> 01:21:49.396 Can we move to something that's not, like, 01:21:49.457 --> 01:21:51.078 controlled by the whims of, like, 01:21:51.318 --> 01:21:53.559 a couple of people that own this company? 01:21:53.599 --> 01:21:53.838 Like, 01:21:54.439 --> 01:21:56.538 I think that's kind of the thing I'm 01:21:56.579 --> 01:21:56.880 seeing here. 01:21:56.920 --> 01:21:59.619 Like, Discord, I remember back in, like, 01:21:59.760 --> 01:22:00.881 I joined it when it, like, 01:22:00.940 --> 01:22:06.882 first came out in, like, and, you know, 01:22:06.943 --> 01:22:09.884 it was a really cool alternative. 01:22:09.944 --> 01:22:10.363 It was, like, 01:22:10.423 --> 01:22:11.604 way better than everything else. 01:22:11.783 --> 01:22:12.224 But, like, 01:22:12.404 --> 01:22:13.545 I feel like we've gotten to the point 01:22:13.585 --> 01:22:14.265 now where it's, like, 01:22:16.127 --> 01:22:17.207 we have the ability to, 01:22:17.448 --> 01:22:18.347 to make something better. 01:22:18.488 --> 01:22:20.029 Like I feel like it wouldn't be that 01:22:20.069 --> 01:22:21.750 hard for someone to make something that is 01:22:21.789 --> 01:22:24.771 better because there's so many teething 01:22:24.832 --> 01:22:25.671 issues now with it. 01:22:25.712 --> 01:22:28.253 Like people are complaining like about 01:22:28.333 --> 01:22:29.694 decisions that have been made by the 01:22:29.734 --> 01:22:30.375 development team. 01:22:30.395 --> 01:22:32.275 Like, Oh, why is it moving to like, 01:22:32.935 --> 01:22:34.657 why are you moving every platform to like 01:22:36.358 --> 01:22:38.439 a non-native experience? 01:22:38.458 --> 01:22:39.319 Like why are you, 01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:41.100 why are you making the app like really 01:22:41.341 --> 01:22:42.421 laggy on my phone? 01:22:42.462 --> 01:22:43.122 Like it's, 01:22:44.132 --> 01:22:46.134 it's it's decisions that like this this 01:22:46.554 --> 01:22:48.514 top-down system is kind of making right 01:22:48.554 --> 01:22:50.274 like I feel like if it was a 01:22:50.314 --> 01:22:53.095 decentralized open source uh sort of thing 01:22:53.135 --> 01:22:55.735 it would be maybe that is an option 01:22:55.775 --> 01:22:57.577 that you can switch your clients to but 01:22:57.596 --> 01:22:59.296 there's also another option you know like 01:22:59.756 --> 01:23:02.698 there could be something a bit you know 01:23:02.757 --> 01:23:05.498 avoid these issues that we keep having but 01:23:05.519 --> 01:23:06.779 again like you know matrix 01:23:07.957 --> 01:23:11.918 also has showed us that that doesn't 01:23:11.939 --> 01:23:13.399 always work that well. 01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:14.859 Um, because I think a lot of the, 01:23:15.640 --> 01:23:17.701 a lot of the development around matrix is 01:23:17.961 --> 01:23:19.801 done by a single company. 01:23:19.820 --> 01:23:21.542 It's not really done by a community of 01:23:21.582 --> 01:23:23.802 people as much as we would like. 01:23:24.122 --> 01:23:25.703 Um, like, you know, 01:23:25.743 --> 01:23:30.845 matrix.org foundation is like quite strong 01:23:30.885 --> 01:23:31.984 behind the development of, 01:23:32.164 --> 01:23:33.865 of it as a project, um, 01:23:33.926 --> 01:23:35.265 which kind of makes sense, but, 01:23:36.467 --> 01:23:38.789 it does mean they can make decisions that 01:23:38.850 --> 01:23:39.911 affect everything else. 01:23:39.951 --> 01:23:42.972 Like I remember it's like all the spaces 01:23:43.033 --> 01:23:43.493 stuff. 01:23:43.552 --> 01:23:45.213 And then we had before spaces, 01:23:45.253 --> 01:23:46.694 it was like everything was in, 01:23:46.716 --> 01:23:47.975 I don't know. 01:23:48.796 --> 01:23:51.439 I'm not honestly that much of a matrix 01:23:51.559 --> 01:23:51.819 user. 01:23:51.878 --> 01:23:53.359 I'm just on there because there's channels 01:23:53.380 --> 01:23:54.081 that I have to be in. 01:23:56.221 --> 01:23:58.543 But there's definitely issues with that 01:23:58.923 --> 01:23:59.645 aspect as well. 01:23:59.685 --> 01:24:01.666 But I feel like the issues are a 01:24:01.706 --> 01:24:03.627 little bit more forgivable at least. 01:24:06.204 --> 01:24:09.386 Yeah, totally agree. 01:24:10.921 --> 01:24:12.323 A couple messages in the chat here. 01:24:12.563 --> 01:24:14.524 Ion Sailor said, Stout, thank you. 01:24:14.805 --> 01:24:15.524 Not Revolt. 01:24:15.625 --> 01:24:16.886 Revolt was the original name. 01:24:17.286 --> 01:24:19.307 I didn't much like it at the time, 01:24:19.368 --> 01:24:22.329 but I think Stout is much worse. 01:24:22.529 --> 01:24:23.751 No offense to the Stout people. 01:24:24.990 --> 01:24:25.851 Harder to remember. 01:24:27.953 --> 01:24:31.095 Yeah, I'm not a fan of Stout, 01:24:31.216 --> 01:24:31.996 unfortunately. 01:24:33.197 --> 01:24:35.097 I would have loved for it to be 01:24:35.158 --> 01:24:35.618 cool, 01:24:35.779 --> 01:24:38.340 but I know they've rejected Federation and 01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:39.461 they're just kind of building their own 01:24:39.480 --> 01:24:39.680 thing. 01:24:41.823 --> 01:24:44.083 do i want to see something more able 01:24:44.123 --> 01:24:49.247 to be self-hosted but also um i just 01:24:49.828 --> 01:24:51.448 don't like it as much as discord in 01:24:51.469 --> 01:24:53.130 the first place so kind of loses on 01:24:53.690 --> 01:24:57.033 on both fronts um hello asked why is 01:24:57.092 --> 01:25:01.395 matrix.org terrible or do you just mean 01:25:01.435 --> 01:25:05.418 the ui um no i was talking about 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:07.900 the matrix.org home server is just 01:25:09.023 --> 01:25:09.382 very, 01:25:09.523 --> 01:25:11.304 very slow to federate and causes a lot 01:25:11.323 --> 01:25:11.904 of problems. 01:25:12.104 --> 01:25:13.404 And it's a very, 01:25:13.543 --> 01:25:14.765 it's a centralizing force. 01:25:15.085 --> 01:25:16.784 Mastodon sort of has this issue with 01:25:16.886 --> 01:25:18.445 Mastodon.social too. 01:25:18.506 --> 01:25:20.407 Most people just join that by default, 01:25:20.466 --> 01:25:22.926 but Mastodon puts in more of an effort 01:25:23.027 --> 01:25:24.627 to guide people to other servers, 01:25:24.667 --> 01:25:27.048 whereas Matrix doesn't really, 01:25:27.109 --> 01:25:29.288 which is very annoying because their main 01:25:29.328 --> 01:25:30.090 server is, 01:25:30.869 --> 01:25:33.650 can very often be slow to sync with 01:25:33.791 --> 01:25:34.451 other servers. 01:25:34.490 --> 01:25:36.171 So it makes, you know, 01:25:36.190 --> 01:25:37.391 there's a bad experience 01:25:38.341 --> 01:25:40.724 when you're interacting with anyone else 01:25:40.783 --> 01:25:43.725 on matrix, who's not on matrix.org, um, 01:25:45.487 --> 01:25:47.148 it, you just receive message slower. 01:25:47.188 --> 01:25:48.930 You can miss messages and other people 01:25:48.970 --> 01:25:49.170 can, 01:25:49.369 --> 01:25:51.270 can receive message messages slower from 01:25:51.310 --> 01:25:51.470 you. 01:25:51.731 --> 01:25:52.152 Uh, 01:25:52.171 --> 01:25:54.873 the size of their server causes problems 01:25:55.154 --> 01:25:58.036 in rooms because it's the majority of the 01:25:58.076 --> 01:25:58.256 room. 01:25:58.296 --> 01:26:00.997 And so if it decides to break something, 01:26:01.018 --> 01:26:02.960 things can randomly break. 01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:05.381 And it's so centralized that when 01:26:05.442 --> 01:26:07.363 matrix.org goes down, which it, 01:26:08.578 --> 01:26:10.260 done in the past and will in the 01:26:10.279 --> 01:26:14.462 future it basically turns most of matrix 01:26:14.582 --> 01:26:18.126 into a ghost town because there's only 01:26:18.206 --> 01:26:21.127 like ten people in each room who are 01:26:21.228 --> 01:26:23.288 on a separate server in a lot of 01:26:23.309 --> 01:26:26.471 cases or or even less in smaller rooms 01:26:27.932 --> 01:26:29.993 so yeah it's definitely a putting all your 01:26:30.094 --> 01:26:31.975 eggs in one basket case and it's not 01:26:32.036 --> 01:26:35.537 even a very performant basket 01:26:35.618 --> 01:26:36.538 unfortunately so 01:26:37.676 --> 01:26:39.217 Whenever anyone complains about Matrix, 01:26:39.257 --> 01:26:40.279 the first thing I tell them is to 01:26:40.298 --> 01:26:42.201 switch from Matrix.org to literally 01:26:42.301 --> 01:26:43.002 anything else. 01:26:43.181 --> 01:26:44.783 And they always come back and say, wow, 01:26:45.162 --> 01:26:47.225 this is much better to use Matrix after 01:26:47.244 --> 01:26:47.706 I switched. 01:26:50.127 --> 01:26:50.228 Wow. 01:26:50.247 --> 01:26:50.448 Yeah. 01:26:50.887 --> 01:26:51.488 I mean, I don't know. 01:26:52.810 --> 01:26:54.811 I'm not on Matrix.org and my experience 01:26:54.832 --> 01:26:55.972 has been fine. 01:26:56.193 --> 01:26:56.693 I mean, 01:26:57.073 --> 01:26:59.576 I think it's definitely helped with the 01:27:00.235 --> 01:27:02.238 Element X sliding sync stuff. 01:27:02.641 --> 01:27:04.283 Like it is a little bit nicer that 01:27:04.323 --> 01:27:06.182 it doesn't like kind of lock up the 01:27:06.222 --> 01:27:07.963 entire experience when it's sinking. 01:27:08.363 --> 01:27:08.524 Um, 01:27:08.543 --> 01:27:10.505 I think that's kind of like the worst 01:27:10.545 --> 01:27:12.945 part of it, um, 01:27:12.985 --> 01:27:14.865 with like the original element clients. 01:27:15.167 --> 01:27:16.287 Um, but. 01:27:17.270 --> 01:27:17.489 Yeah. 01:27:17.729 --> 01:27:19.832 I think it's also the issue that I 01:27:19.891 --> 01:27:22.313 see with matrix is I've looked into this. 01:27:22.372 --> 01:27:23.573 I've been like, Oh, I wonder how, 01:27:23.613 --> 01:27:24.894 how hard it would be to run like 01:27:24.913 --> 01:27:26.715 a matrix.org home server. 01:27:26.735 --> 01:27:28.556 Like surely that's not like, um, 01:27:28.737 --> 01:27:29.516 matrix home server. 01:27:29.537 --> 01:27:30.797 Like surely that's not that hard. 01:27:31.457 --> 01:27:34.119 And then I look into it and it's 01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:34.800 like, Oh, you know, 01:27:34.819 --> 01:27:36.100 you need quite a bit of Ram. 01:27:36.121 --> 01:27:37.902 You need quite a lot of disk space. 01:27:37.942 --> 01:27:38.442 You know, it, 01:27:38.561 --> 01:27:41.243 it makes it a lot more inaccessible. 01:27:41.304 --> 01:27:43.164 I think when you start requiring all 01:27:43.185 --> 01:27:44.765 these, uh, 01:27:46.457 --> 01:27:47.476 extra things and, like, 01:27:47.617 --> 01:27:49.497 quite high hardware requirements. 01:27:49.797 --> 01:27:51.078 It's going to end up costing a lot 01:27:51.099 --> 01:27:52.279 of money if you're doing that on a 01:27:52.298 --> 01:27:52.979 VPS. 01:27:53.859 --> 01:27:54.520 Or, you know, 01:27:54.539 --> 01:27:56.460 it's going to require a lot of decent 01:27:56.500 --> 01:27:57.881 hardware to at least have, like... 01:27:58.360 --> 01:27:59.622 I feel like you need to have decent 01:27:59.662 --> 01:28:02.323 hardware for the performance to just be 01:28:02.863 --> 01:28:03.363 okay. 01:28:04.122 --> 01:28:05.444 And SSDs and all that. 01:28:05.524 --> 01:28:06.083 So, I don't know. 01:28:06.123 --> 01:28:06.863 Yeah. 01:28:06.884 --> 01:28:09.244 This is the problem I have with Matrix. 01:28:10.145 --> 01:28:11.706 That I alluded to earlier with everything 01:28:12.105 --> 01:28:13.405 needing to sync with each other. 01:28:13.987 --> 01:28:14.827 It's just, like... 01:28:15.487 --> 01:28:18.828 Not only is it challenging for a project 01:28:18.889 --> 01:28:21.051 like Mozilla or a project like Privacy 01:28:21.091 --> 01:28:24.912 Guides to self-host everything so we can 01:28:24.953 --> 01:28:28.015 control our rooms and our own accounts and 01:28:28.055 --> 01:28:31.216 stuff, but also just to use Matrix. 01:28:31.237 --> 01:28:35.539 You can't spin up your own instance super 01:28:35.659 --> 01:28:36.039 easily. 01:28:36.199 --> 01:28:37.100 And when you do, 01:28:37.360 --> 01:28:38.822 you have to get all of that data. 01:28:39.601 --> 01:28:43.043 matrix like it makes sense for very 01:28:43.083 --> 01:28:46.266 specific use cases where you would want to 01:28:46.407 --> 01:28:47.887 actually have all of that data it's 01:28:47.948 --> 01:28:50.368 certainly good for decentralization but 01:28:50.970 --> 01:28:54.832 it's not it's not what most open source 01:28:54.872 --> 01:28:56.774 projects or what most projects in general 01:28:56.854 --> 01:29:01.176 need and it doesn't really make a lot 01:29:01.216 --> 01:29:04.599 of sense for the huge groups uh who 01:29:04.639 --> 01:29:07.100 are trying to use it um so like 01:29:10.056 --> 01:29:11.417 At Privacy Guides, for example, 01:29:11.478 --> 01:29:14.139 we host our own forum, as you mentioned, 01:29:14.198 --> 01:29:16.121 at discuss.privacyguides.net, 01:29:16.161 --> 01:29:18.202 and that runs on Discourse, 01:29:18.462 --> 01:29:19.983 which is a great forum software, 01:29:20.524 --> 01:29:22.204 and that's something that we can just host 01:29:22.265 --> 01:29:22.725 ourselves. 01:29:22.765 --> 01:29:24.886 You don't have to host anything to use 01:29:24.926 --> 01:29:25.067 it. 01:29:25.726 --> 01:29:26.087 No, 01:29:26.467 --> 01:29:29.949 you can't access other Discourse forums to 01:29:29.970 --> 01:29:30.550 it or anything. 01:29:30.770 --> 01:29:32.692 It's just a normal website, 01:29:32.771 --> 01:29:35.514 but it's an experience that we can 01:29:35.554 --> 01:29:37.335 control, and it's easy for people to use, 01:29:37.614 --> 01:29:38.355 and if you get, like, 01:29:38.996 --> 01:29:40.938 the discourse mobile app, 01:29:40.978 --> 01:29:43.680 you can add multiple discourse forms to it 01:29:43.720 --> 01:29:45.801 to get notifications and stuff from from 01:29:45.942 --> 01:29:46.983 all of them that you're a part of. 01:29:47.363 --> 01:29:48.685 I know the discourse is 01:29:50.537 --> 01:29:52.699 commonly confused with Discord, 01:29:52.739 --> 01:29:53.479 but it's separate. 01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:56.603 And Discourse is very commonly used in the 01:29:57.384 --> 01:29:58.685 open source space as well. 01:29:58.725 --> 01:30:01.506 So many Linux distros, Fedora, Ubuntu, 01:30:02.448 --> 01:30:04.289 so many open source projects all use 01:30:04.510 --> 01:30:05.029 Discourse. 01:30:05.791 --> 01:30:06.331 So you'll probably, 01:30:06.792 --> 01:30:08.893 you'd recognize it if you saw it because 01:30:09.094 --> 01:30:10.295 a lot of these sites look the same. 01:30:10.354 --> 01:30:13.077 But it's nice to have a system like 01:30:13.136 --> 01:30:13.377 that. 01:30:14.158 --> 01:30:16.260 And that's why I think if there is 01:30:16.279 --> 01:30:18.481 a federated version that's more like 01:30:20.899 --> 01:30:22.320 The open source project can kind of 01:30:22.360 --> 01:30:23.962 control it, but it's all separate. 01:30:24.283 --> 01:30:25.404 I think that that would see a lot 01:30:25.425 --> 01:30:27.087 of adoption because a lot of open source 01:30:27.127 --> 01:30:28.748 projects are already doing that when it is 01:30:28.868 --> 01:30:29.470 an option here. 01:30:30.872 --> 01:30:32.753 But there's just not really a product 01:30:33.454 --> 01:30:36.798 that's good for instant messaging right 01:30:36.838 --> 01:30:36.958 now. 01:30:39.007 --> 01:30:39.769 Yeah, definitely. 01:30:40.288 --> 01:30:41.489 I guess we can kind of move on 01:30:41.529 --> 01:30:42.551 to the next story here, 01:30:42.631 --> 01:30:47.333 and that is about Poland urging officials 01:30:47.373 --> 01:30:50.136 to ditch Signal for state-run messaging 01:30:50.516 --> 01:30:50.877 apps. 01:30:51.417 --> 01:30:53.679 This is a story from Cyber Insider. 01:30:54.378 --> 01:30:54.779 Basically, 01:30:54.819 --> 01:30:56.940 Poland's government is urging public 01:30:56.980 --> 01:30:58.962 sector organizations to reduce their 01:30:59.002 --> 01:31:00.684 reliance on Signal for official 01:31:00.724 --> 01:31:02.786 communications and instead adopt 01:31:02.926 --> 01:31:05.667 domestically controlled encrypted 01:31:05.967 --> 01:31:07.408 messaging systems for 01:31:07.529 --> 01:31:09.390 following a surge in phishing attacks 01:31:09.572 --> 01:31:11.694 targeting politicians, government, 01:31:11.873 --> 01:31:13.837 personnel, and military staff. 01:31:14.957 --> 01:31:17.341 And basically, instead of, you know, 01:31:17.360 --> 01:31:20.024 whatever Signal or any of these other 01:31:20.604 --> 01:31:22.106 encrypted apps that we suggest, 01:31:22.367 --> 01:31:24.029 they are pushing people to use 01:31:26.657 --> 01:31:29.198 I'm not going to even try pronouncing 01:31:29.219 --> 01:31:29.439 that, 01:31:29.538 --> 01:31:32.921 but this app that they're suggesting, 01:31:32.942 --> 01:31:34.302 I don't know how to say that. 01:31:35.363 --> 01:31:36.404 I guess it's in Polish, 01:31:36.765 --> 01:31:37.886 which definitely makes sense. 01:31:39.027 --> 01:31:43.930 But yeah, there's two apps there, MSZYFR, 01:31:44.070 --> 01:31:45.953 I don't know how that's meant to be 01:31:45.993 --> 01:31:47.713 said, and SKR-Z. 01:31:47.833 --> 01:31:47.934 Okay. 01:31:50.520 --> 01:31:53.622 I did see someone also mention that this 01:31:53.962 --> 01:31:57.265 first one here is actually a Matrix 01:31:58.045 --> 01:31:58.605 client. 01:31:58.985 --> 01:32:01.747 So that definitely tracks considering 01:32:01.846 --> 01:32:04.389 Matrix's involvement with governments and 01:32:04.448 --> 01:32:05.889 militaries and police forces. 01:32:07.090 --> 01:32:08.690 I think that definitely makes sense. 01:32:09.368 --> 01:32:11.630 So if we just dive into this here, 01:32:11.710 --> 01:32:11.949 yep. 01:32:11.970 --> 01:32:13.751 So according to the advisory, 01:32:13.791 --> 01:32:16.353 both systems operate entirely under Polish 01:32:16.552 --> 01:32:18.194 jurisdiction with their infrastructure 01:32:18.213 --> 01:32:21.255 hosted in Poland and administered in 01:32:21.295 --> 01:32:23.516 accordance with national cybersecurity 01:32:23.556 --> 01:32:24.136 standards. 01:32:24.676 --> 01:32:26.877 The move mirrors a broader European trend 01:32:26.957 --> 01:32:30.079 towards digital sovereignty in government 01:32:30.100 --> 01:32:30.900 communications. 01:32:31.041 --> 01:32:31.780 Earlier this month, 01:32:31.961 --> 01:32:35.302 Germany's Bundestag similarly encouraged 01:32:35.363 --> 01:32:37.184 lawmakers to transition to 01:32:37.623 --> 01:32:40.725 away from signal and use wire messaging 01:32:40.744 --> 01:32:43.466 platform after phishing attacks targeted 01:32:44.546 --> 01:32:45.487 politicians. 01:32:46.247 --> 01:32:51.248 So I think this is a little bit, 01:32:52.248 --> 01:32:54.430 I can understand why these countries are 01:32:54.489 --> 01:32:55.729 saying that they would rather use 01:32:55.750 --> 01:32:57.930 something that exists in their own 01:32:57.970 --> 01:33:00.051 country, like for, you know, 01:33:00.091 --> 01:33:01.551 sovereignty reasons and, you know, 01:33:01.572 --> 01:33:03.872 not trusting software from other 01:33:03.912 --> 01:33:04.372 countries, 01:33:04.393 --> 01:33:04.733 but 01:33:05.613 --> 01:33:08.274 But I think the issue that comes with 01:33:08.314 --> 01:33:10.895 this whole practice is you start 01:33:10.956 --> 01:33:13.238 recommending people use less secure 01:33:13.297 --> 01:33:13.818 options. 01:33:13.997 --> 01:33:16.179 You actually reduce security when you do 01:33:16.198 --> 01:33:20.261 this because you're telling people not to 01:33:20.322 --> 01:33:21.561 use the most secure apps. 01:33:22.643 --> 01:33:24.823 If they're saying not to use Signal or 01:33:24.844 --> 01:33:26.484 they're saying not to use SimpleX or 01:33:26.505 --> 01:33:28.645 they're saying not to use any of these 01:33:28.725 --> 01:33:30.846 other recommended messages that we 01:33:30.908 --> 01:33:31.507 suggest, 01:33:32.427 --> 01:33:33.488 you're pushing people to these 01:33:34.440 --> 01:33:34.720 apps, 01:33:34.761 --> 01:33:37.282 which I would argue probably don't offer 01:33:37.322 --> 01:33:39.323 the same guarantees of privacy. 01:33:40.764 --> 01:33:42.925 Although they're in a foreign 01:33:42.965 --> 01:33:43.604 jurisdiction, 01:33:43.685 --> 01:33:46.105 but I don't think that really matters when 01:33:46.145 --> 01:33:50.087 it comes down to the encryption guarantees 01:33:50.127 --> 01:33:51.288 because Signal, 01:33:51.588 --> 01:33:54.029 they can't access the message content. 01:33:54.310 --> 01:33:56.110 So I think it's 01:33:57.625 --> 01:33:58.985 it's a little bit silly. 01:34:00.466 --> 01:34:01.127 In my opinion, 01:34:01.247 --> 01:34:02.748 I don't think there's any evidence that 01:34:02.788 --> 01:34:04.149 these apps are compromised. 01:34:04.270 --> 01:34:06.712 And I think the phishing attacks are also 01:34:06.752 --> 01:34:09.173 something that needs better education. 01:34:09.253 --> 01:34:10.354 Like we just need to 01:34:11.971 --> 01:34:14.253 basically make sure that these public 01:34:14.314 --> 01:34:18.037 sector organizations are telling people, 01:34:18.158 --> 01:34:18.537 you know, 01:34:18.578 --> 01:34:20.439 like Signal is never going to text you 01:34:20.460 --> 01:34:22.662 and ask you to scan a QR code. 01:34:22.702 --> 01:34:25.024 Like these, these, 01:34:26.185 --> 01:34:27.546 these organizations need to, 01:34:28.006 --> 01:34:30.890 to give better advice and better 01:34:31.770 --> 01:34:32.971 cybersecurity hygiene. 01:34:33.011 --> 01:34:34.393 Like they should be telling people, 01:34:34.432 --> 01:34:34.694 you know, 01:34:34.734 --> 01:34:36.895 don't do this sort of stuff because, 01:34:38.463 --> 01:34:43.686 I don't think switching to these national 01:34:44.228 --> 01:34:48.149 messengers is going to increase security. 01:34:48.270 --> 01:34:49.511 I feel like it's going to decrease 01:34:50.171 --> 01:34:50.671 security. 01:34:50.752 --> 01:34:53.533 But that's kind of my initial thoughts. 01:34:53.774 --> 01:34:54.913 Do you have anything you wanted to add 01:34:54.934 --> 01:34:55.475 on that? 01:34:55.574 --> 01:34:57.996 I feel like I would imagine all of 01:34:58.036 --> 01:34:59.096 these systems, 01:34:59.157 --> 01:35:00.318 even though they're built on 01:35:02.344 --> 01:35:03.484 Matrix in this case, 01:35:04.626 --> 01:35:06.867 Germany switching to wire, of course. 01:35:06.926 --> 01:35:08.108 I'll talk about that in a sec too. 01:35:09.167 --> 01:35:10.889 I would imagine even though it's Matrix, 01:35:10.908 --> 01:35:13.730 they probably don't federate at all or 01:35:13.770 --> 01:35:14.030 they... 01:35:15.471 --> 01:35:17.453 I've seen some governments set up like a 01:35:17.514 --> 01:35:20.676 Matrix server per agency and stuff like 01:35:20.695 --> 01:35:20.855 that, 01:35:20.876 --> 01:35:22.856 but then they only federate with each 01:35:22.917 --> 01:35:24.097 other and not the wider area. 01:35:24.158 --> 01:35:26.338 So that's probably a way that they want 01:35:27.319 --> 01:35:29.001 to have phishing protection since there's 01:35:29.060 --> 01:35:30.061 no way to kind of 01:35:31.067 --> 01:35:34.810 block phishing attacks on signal um but at 01:35:34.831 --> 01:35:37.994 the same time yeah that education is still 01:35:38.015 --> 01:35:40.677 important and you're still going to have 01:35:40.698 --> 01:35:43.260 phishing attacks occur through other means 01:35:43.421 --> 01:35:45.962 even if your matrix system is totally 01:35:46.023 --> 01:35:50.667 walled off so like just ignoring that as 01:35:50.688 --> 01:35:51.890 a problem and not 01:35:53.981 --> 01:35:55.662 You know, it can go both ways. 01:35:56.042 --> 01:35:59.122 I don't think it's ever a great solution 01:35:59.162 --> 01:36:00.903 when the answer is like, 01:36:01.743 --> 01:36:04.503 you just got to educate your users because 01:36:05.104 --> 01:36:08.684 if there's one thing that has proven to 01:36:08.704 --> 01:36:11.904 not be very effective is just telling 01:36:11.944 --> 01:36:13.704 people to do something. 01:36:14.626 --> 01:36:15.685 But at the same time, you know, 01:36:15.746 --> 01:36:17.565 tech literacy is important. 01:36:17.765 --> 01:36:19.345 And again, 01:36:21.207 --> 01:36:22.506 all of these social engineering attacks, 01:36:22.527 --> 01:36:23.266 they can take so many 01:36:24.323 --> 01:36:25.927 so many routes to get to people. 01:36:27.310 --> 01:36:28.512 I don't know how much of a benefit 01:36:28.533 --> 01:36:31.059 switching just this one service over is 01:36:31.078 --> 01:36:33.384 going to have 01:36:35.972 --> 01:36:36.672 As far as wire, 01:36:37.014 --> 01:36:39.694 I didn't actually know that the holding 01:36:39.734 --> 01:36:43.557 company for wire moved to Germany because 01:36:43.858 --> 01:36:45.838 I remember in twenty nineteen, 01:36:45.899 --> 01:36:47.159 it was a whole thing where they moved 01:36:47.180 --> 01:36:48.440 to the US and then it was like, 01:36:48.461 --> 01:36:48.640 well, 01:36:48.740 --> 01:36:50.462 is this under US jurisdiction anyways? 01:36:50.582 --> 01:36:53.363 I just looked this up now because I 01:36:53.444 --> 01:36:54.363 wanted to look up like, 01:36:54.805 --> 01:36:56.085 is that still the case? 01:36:56.265 --> 01:36:59.306 Why would Germany be there still sticking 01:36:59.328 --> 01:37:00.028 with a US company? 01:37:00.068 --> 01:37:01.628 But I guess they're not American anymore. 01:37:02.048 --> 01:37:05.271 so it makes a bit more sense um 01:37:06.332 --> 01:37:08.814 unfortunately wire has kind of gone 01:37:08.854 --> 01:37:11.356 downhill for consumers here so it's not 01:37:11.396 --> 01:37:13.037 like something we focus on just because 01:37:13.137 --> 01:37:15.640 they are really focused on the business 01:37:15.659 --> 01:37:20.083 side of things now so whatever but yeah 01:37:20.203 --> 01:37:21.505 it's it's interesting that they're all 01:37:21.524 --> 01:37:22.305 switching i don't 01:37:25.157 --> 01:37:26.136 I'm of two minds about it, 01:37:26.176 --> 01:37:29.658 because I feel like it's important. 01:37:30.179 --> 01:37:32.219 It's not only is it important to like 01:37:32.378 --> 01:37:33.960 own all of your data and self host 01:37:33.979 --> 01:37:34.500 your own stuff. 01:37:34.539 --> 01:37:36.020 And that goes not only for people 01:37:36.100 --> 01:37:36.619 personally, 01:37:36.640 --> 01:37:38.581 but also for organizations and 01:37:38.661 --> 01:37:39.201 governments. 01:37:40.521 --> 01:37:40.782 And also, 01:37:40.822 --> 01:37:42.702 I think not being reliant on the US 01:37:42.862 --> 01:37:46.944 is important for the for the rest of 01:37:46.963 --> 01:37:47.323 the world. 01:37:48.043 --> 01:37:48.304 But 01:37:51.539 --> 01:37:53.162 I don't know how much better these 01:37:53.203 --> 01:37:55.046 solutions are going to be for them, 01:37:55.868 --> 01:37:57.109 especially in light of... 01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:02.961 known to be secure solutions like Signal. 01:38:03.320 --> 01:38:06.001 It's one thing to switch from Microsoft 01:38:06.041 --> 01:38:09.902 Windows and from Google Drive to European 01:38:09.942 --> 01:38:14.603 solutions or Linux distros or something 01:38:14.622 --> 01:38:17.524 like LibreOffice or OnlyOffice or 01:38:19.104 --> 01:38:21.423 NextCloud or whatever. 01:38:22.925 --> 01:38:24.104 That sort of stuff makes sense. 01:38:24.324 --> 01:38:28.126 But when you abandon tools that are... 01:38:29.113 --> 01:38:31.793 provably secure like signal or like the 01:38:31.833 --> 01:38:35.996 tour network or etc that that's where it 01:38:36.036 --> 01:38:37.516 makes a bit less sense to me to 01:38:37.537 --> 01:38:40.637 just like blindly shy away from american 01:38:40.698 --> 01:38:44.979 companies so it can go either way i 01:38:45.000 --> 01:38:47.041 don't think this is like a a terrible 01:38:47.560 --> 01:38:50.322 idea for for poland to be doing but 01:38:50.662 --> 01:38:51.582 matrix security 01:38:53.686 --> 01:38:58.309 not up to Signal's quality by any means. 01:38:58.349 --> 01:38:59.850 There's a reason that Signal is kind of 01:38:59.869 --> 01:39:01.069 the standard in that space. 01:39:01.229 --> 01:39:04.391 So yeah, 01:39:06.512 --> 01:39:07.993 maybe it's going a bit too far, 01:39:08.434 --> 01:39:11.555 or maybe it's good for the EU to 01:39:11.574 --> 01:39:12.595 be more self-reliant. 01:39:12.716 --> 01:39:12.996 I don't know. 01:39:14.896 --> 01:39:16.037 You all can let me know what you 01:39:16.056 --> 01:39:18.938 think about it, but yeah, 01:39:19.057 --> 01:39:20.238 I kind of mixed up the whole thing. 01:39:21.952 --> 01:39:23.412 I do think, you know, I don't know. 01:39:23.552 --> 01:39:25.033 I feel like I sort of take like 01:39:25.212 --> 01:39:28.534 a somewhat pragmatic approach. 01:39:28.595 --> 01:39:31.095 Like if something is in the US, 01:39:31.155 --> 01:39:33.877 but it offers a much more secure 01:39:35.157 --> 01:39:39.399 experience and a much more usable 01:39:39.479 --> 01:39:41.619 experience, I'm okay with using that, 01:39:41.680 --> 01:39:41.859 right? 01:39:41.899 --> 01:39:47.141 Like I think if, you know, if ProtonMail, 01:39:47.202 --> 01:39:49.222 for instance, was in the US, 01:39:49.523 --> 01:39:50.884 I think it would still be 01:39:52.297 --> 01:39:53.557 like, verifiably, like, 01:39:53.578 --> 01:39:55.719 it would still have good security, right? 01:39:55.759 --> 01:39:58.399 Like, I don't think that would. 01:39:58.420 --> 01:40:00.900 That'd be a little email specifically 01:40:00.921 --> 01:40:02.421 could be a little tricky. 01:40:02.502 --> 01:40:03.521 I was just gonna bring this up. 01:40:04.082 --> 01:40:07.404 I think people are a bit like, 01:40:08.243 --> 01:40:11.284 overly paranoid about data entering and 01:40:11.324 --> 01:40:12.385 leaving the US. 01:40:13.786 --> 01:40:14.426 In reality, 01:40:14.466 --> 01:40:15.947 especially for an app like Signal. 01:40:17.524 --> 01:40:19.426 or like the Tor network, for example, 01:40:19.466 --> 01:40:21.087 there aren't really a lot of laws on 01:40:21.127 --> 01:40:24.832 the books that could compel them to like 01:40:24.872 --> 01:40:27.015 turn over a lot of information right now. 01:40:27.034 --> 01:40:28.877 And that can always change, but like, 01:40:30.835 --> 01:40:32.957 We've talked about European countries with 01:40:32.997 --> 01:40:36.720 very invasive policies in the past and 01:40:37.240 --> 01:40:40.262 when we've seen a lot of pushes to 01:40:40.323 --> 01:40:42.765 get rid of end-to-end encryption in 01:40:42.805 --> 01:40:46.069 messaging apps and in other apps, 01:40:46.189 --> 01:40:48.371 a lot of those pushes are more from 01:40:48.511 --> 01:40:51.694 Europe than in the US because I think 01:40:51.793 --> 01:40:53.655 Europe is a bit overly focused on 01:40:55.287 --> 01:40:57.130 businesses exploiting your data, 01:40:57.149 --> 01:40:58.631 which is a good thing to be concerned 01:40:58.652 --> 01:40:58.912 about. 01:40:59.032 --> 01:41:01.775 But I really don't think in the EU 01:41:01.935 --> 01:41:03.578 and in other European countries, 01:41:04.078 --> 01:41:07.663 enough focus is being turned on to 01:41:07.783 --> 01:41:09.447 stopping the government from abusing your 01:41:09.466 --> 01:41:09.726 data. 01:41:09.766 --> 01:41:10.547 We see a lot of 01:41:11.475 --> 01:41:13.738 privacy laws in the EU that are very 01:41:13.778 --> 01:41:15.198 good and very robust, 01:41:15.259 --> 01:41:17.581 and they reign in tech companies, 01:41:17.980 --> 01:41:18.761 both in the EU, 01:41:18.782 --> 01:41:20.122 but also American tech companies, 01:41:20.162 --> 01:41:21.143 which is always a good thing. 01:41:21.604 --> 01:41:24.565 But those privacy laws very often do not 01:41:24.626 --> 01:41:26.627 apply to the government getting your data 01:41:26.667 --> 01:41:27.988 or the government collecting it, 01:41:28.149 --> 01:41:29.750 or they have specific carve outs for 01:41:29.770 --> 01:41:30.730 government agencies. 01:41:30.810 --> 01:41:31.150 And so 01:41:35.461 --> 01:41:37.082 When you're talking about regular people, 01:41:37.182 --> 01:41:37.943 I mean, obviously, 01:41:38.002 --> 01:41:40.065 this is an app for the government, 01:41:40.086 --> 01:41:41.587 so it doesn't really matter in this case. 01:41:41.606 --> 01:41:42.668 But when you're talking about people 01:41:42.689 --> 01:41:44.430 switching to European services, 01:41:45.372 --> 01:41:46.032 it is concerning. 01:41:46.813 --> 01:41:47.854 Going back to Proton, though, 01:41:48.755 --> 01:41:50.637 while I think the way that they secure 01:41:50.658 --> 01:41:52.920 messages is good, 01:41:52.960 --> 01:41:54.362 and I don't think that there's really... 01:41:56.247 --> 01:41:58.510 necessarily a mechanism in the US that 01:41:58.529 --> 01:42:01.091 they could be compelled to decrypt 01:42:01.110 --> 01:42:02.471 someone's messages, for example, 01:42:02.652 --> 01:42:05.894 or build a backdoor into their web 01:42:05.913 --> 01:42:06.453 encryption. 01:42:07.975 --> 01:42:08.836 Wiretapping, 01:42:09.576 --> 01:42:11.256 the whole wiretapping situation in the US 01:42:11.296 --> 01:42:13.179 is not great, 01:42:13.479 --> 01:42:17.801 and I can certainly imagine an issue where 01:42:17.900 --> 01:42:20.563 they are forced to collect unencrypted 01:42:20.662 --> 01:42:21.363 emails coming in, 01:42:21.404 --> 01:42:23.284 and since that's most emails, 01:42:23.324 --> 01:42:25.025 that would be a concern for me. 01:42:25.065 --> 01:42:25.206 So 01:42:27.239 --> 01:42:28.940 There's probably some more protections 01:42:29.082 --> 01:42:31.042 against that in Proton's current 01:42:31.063 --> 01:42:31.703 jurisdiction, 01:42:31.762 --> 01:42:36.046 but it's not a cut-and-dry thing is the 01:42:36.087 --> 01:42:37.627 main thing I would say. 01:42:37.927 --> 01:42:41.791 I think I just see a lot of 01:42:41.890 --> 01:42:43.231 Europeans very overly... 01:42:45.077 --> 01:42:46.957 putting their faith into things like the 01:42:46.978 --> 01:42:47.698 GDPR, 01:42:47.738 --> 01:42:49.738 which does have very good protections, 01:42:49.779 --> 01:42:52.920 but it's not completely comprehensive 01:42:52.960 --> 01:42:57.421 against anybody who might want your data. 01:42:57.582 --> 01:42:58.101 In my opinion, 01:42:58.141 --> 01:43:01.163 that bill is primarily made to rein in 01:43:01.583 --> 01:43:03.045 American companies more than anything 01:43:03.085 --> 01:43:03.204 else, 01:43:03.225 --> 01:43:05.765 which has been a European goal for a 01:43:05.786 --> 01:43:06.706 while, which again, 01:43:06.725 --> 01:43:07.725 probably makes sense for them, 01:43:07.787 --> 01:43:11.448 but it's not going to save you from 01:43:11.688 --> 01:43:13.569 all potential privacy threats. 01:43:16.201 --> 01:43:18.987 yeah as someone who's not in either europe 01:43:19.186 --> 01:43:23.917 or america uh i guess i'm definitely less 01:43:25.597 --> 01:43:27.378 have no skin in the game, I guess. 01:43:29.020 --> 01:43:31.541 So I think, yeah, I don't know. 01:43:31.560 --> 01:43:31.601 I, 01:43:31.841 --> 01:43:33.462 I don't really care that much about like 01:43:33.523 --> 01:43:34.863 the jurisdiction, I would say. 01:43:35.283 --> 01:43:37.024 I would prefer if it wasn't in Australia 01:43:37.045 --> 01:43:37.284 though, 01:43:37.324 --> 01:43:39.046 because we have like really awful 01:43:39.086 --> 01:43:39.985 surveillance laws. 01:43:40.686 --> 01:43:42.608 So anything that isn't in Australia is 01:43:42.648 --> 01:43:44.109 like a better, in my opinion, 01:43:45.569 --> 01:43:47.470 just because, yeah, we don't really, 01:43:49.212 --> 01:43:50.712 it's kind of a problem with our country. 01:43:50.853 --> 01:43:51.412 I don't know. 01:43:51.592 --> 01:43:52.873 Our politicians are, 01:43:56.340 --> 01:43:57.260 not great at, 01:43:58.520 --> 01:44:00.381 they just rush through surveillance stuff. 01:44:01.162 --> 01:44:03.743 And there's a comment here from Cannabida. 01:44:04.302 --> 01:44:05.863 They're switching to a communicator built 01:44:05.963 --> 01:44:06.583 in-house. 01:44:06.783 --> 01:44:08.625 Also, it's not available to the public, 01:44:08.744 --> 01:44:09.704 only government officials. 01:44:10.506 --> 01:44:12.787 I guess that is interesting. 01:44:13.027 --> 01:44:14.726 I kind of assumed that they were doing 01:44:14.747 --> 01:44:14.926 that, 01:44:14.947 --> 01:44:17.127 but I think it is one of the 01:44:17.207 --> 01:44:18.588 ones that they mentioned is based on 01:44:18.628 --> 01:44:19.448 Matrix, I think. 01:44:19.529 --> 01:44:19.868 But, yeah, 01:44:19.948 --> 01:44:21.489 it is still like an in-house communicator. 01:44:22.158 --> 01:44:25.402 system i think um which i guess can 01:44:25.801 --> 01:44:27.304 prevent a little bit of the phishing 01:44:27.404 --> 01:44:30.006 aspect but like i still think you know 01:44:30.086 --> 01:44:33.548 phishing is kind of a large attack surface 01:44:33.588 --> 01:44:36.952 especially if you're a public sector even 01:44:36.971 --> 01:44:38.893 a public figure like i feel like the 01:44:38.932 --> 01:44:40.774 risk of phishing is a lot more likely 01:44:40.814 --> 01:44:43.476 if you're a public figure um and phishing 01:44:43.497 --> 01:44:46.119 attacks can can include lots of different 01:44:46.159 --> 01:44:47.940 things like you know installing malware on 01:44:47.980 --> 01:44:49.563 your device like it doesn't matter where 01:44:50.264 --> 01:44:53.113 the app is is is installed from or 01:44:53.154 --> 01:44:56.024 where the app is um 01:44:56.976 --> 01:44:57.697 is developed. 01:44:57.997 --> 01:45:00.038 I think that's not really protecting 01:45:00.078 --> 01:45:01.960 against the phishing attacks. 01:45:02.239 --> 01:45:03.220 Um, you know, 01:45:03.280 --> 01:45:04.801 installing malware on devices, 01:45:04.881 --> 01:45:06.202 getting people to click on links. 01:45:06.622 --> 01:45:07.823 Uh, 01:45:07.903 --> 01:45:10.545 I don't really see how that is relevant 01:45:10.564 --> 01:45:13.646 to the location of the app being in 01:45:14.546 --> 01:45:15.608 your current jurisdiction. 01:45:15.667 --> 01:45:16.548 Whereas not, um, 01:45:16.569 --> 01:45:19.170 I'm not sure that's the greatest reason to 01:45:19.210 --> 01:45:19.689 want to do that. 01:45:19.750 --> 01:45:21.712 I can certainly see from like a 01:45:21.792 --> 01:45:22.912 sovereignty aspect. 01:45:22.992 --> 01:45:25.514 Like I think I would probably, 01:45:27.457 --> 01:45:27.738 I don't know. 01:45:27.778 --> 01:45:29.840 I think when it comes to public citizens 01:45:29.880 --> 01:45:30.199 data, 01:45:30.320 --> 01:45:31.761 I don't think it should be shared with 01:45:31.801 --> 01:45:33.323 some American tech corporation. 01:45:33.342 --> 01:45:35.364 That's obviously not where that data 01:45:35.385 --> 01:45:35.925 should be going. 01:45:35.984 --> 01:45:40.509 But if it's communications with public 01:45:40.588 --> 01:45:42.251 sector stuff, 01:45:42.451 --> 01:45:45.052 I guess there could be national security 01:45:45.092 --> 01:45:47.015 concerns with sending that data. 01:45:47.055 --> 01:45:48.435 But again, if it's encrypted, 01:45:48.496 --> 01:45:49.777 I don't see how that's really that 01:45:49.837 --> 01:45:50.238 relevant. 01:45:51.139 --> 01:45:52.359 Speaking of national security, 01:45:52.520 --> 01:45:55.184 I just wanted to fact check this message 01:45:55.264 --> 01:45:56.905 quick. 01:45:57.726 --> 01:45:58.887 This is why they're recommending two. 01:45:58.948 --> 01:46:00.930 The first one is indeed built on Matrix, 01:46:00.970 --> 01:46:03.953 and the second one is totally isolated, 01:46:04.054 --> 01:46:04.814 and that's for... 01:46:05.836 --> 01:46:08.096 handling restricted information and that 01:46:08.157 --> 01:46:11.099 is the the home the homemade one i 01:46:11.139 --> 01:46:12.979 don't know if they're saying because this 01:46:13.020 --> 01:46:15.121 the the second messenger that we mentioned 01:46:15.341 --> 01:46:18.382 is an isolated classified communications 01:46:18.403 --> 01:46:20.144 network i don't know if that implies the 01:46:20.184 --> 01:46:22.025 first one is going to be more open 01:46:22.105 --> 01:46:26.287 to federation or not but um yeah it 01:46:26.307 --> 01:46:28.748 does seem a little confusing that they 01:46:29.510 --> 01:46:31.551 need to have two different messengers 01:46:31.591 --> 01:46:33.671 instead of having one good one but i 01:46:33.712 --> 01:46:34.432 guess maybe it's 01:46:35.494 --> 01:46:38.377 nice for governments to segment classified 01:46:38.417 --> 01:46:40.658 information into its own thing easier to 01:46:40.838 --> 01:46:43.180 keep track of so probably makes sense I 01:46:43.201 --> 01:46:45.762 don't know I'm not a government data 01:46:45.823 --> 01:46:48.385 manager so however they decide to handle 01:46:48.404 --> 01:46:50.506 all their classified information is 01:46:50.567 --> 01:46:52.108 probably good but it does seem a little 01:46:52.248 --> 01:46:55.591 inefficient yeah and I'm not really sure 01:46:55.631 --> 01:46:57.512 if you know I know Poland I feel 01:46:57.533 --> 01:46:59.213 like Poland is like one of the smaller 01:46:59.253 --> 01:47:01.336 countries in Europe but I might be wrong 01:47:01.376 --> 01:47:04.417 on that I feel like trusting data to 01:47:04.457 --> 01:47:05.099 like you know 01:47:06.436 --> 01:47:09.488 a tiny group of developers from Poland who 01:47:09.630 --> 01:47:11.256 may or may not have the world-class 01:47:11.337 --> 01:47:12.341 expertise of 01:47:12.688 --> 01:47:16.248 cryptography that signal has is probably 01:47:16.269 --> 01:47:18.609 not the greatest idea but you know maybe 01:47:18.628 --> 01:47:20.510 they are maybe they do maybe there are 01:47:20.550 --> 01:47:23.130 just so many cryptographers in Poland that 01:47:23.149 --> 01:47:26.871 I I'm not sure but um I don't 01:47:26.911 --> 01:47:30.171 know how Poland compares uh like in terms 01:47:30.212 --> 01:47:32.171 of population I know it's it's it's quite 01:47:32.212 --> 01:47:34.893 a big country like on a on a 01:47:34.953 --> 01:47:38.314 map geographically but I don't know how 01:47:38.354 --> 01:47:39.373 many I don't know if it's 01:47:41.015 --> 01:47:42.176 If I'm looking at a map quick, 01:47:42.195 --> 01:47:42.916 it is top ten. 01:47:43.537 --> 01:47:44.157 I will say, 01:47:45.476 --> 01:47:50.398 just in the defense of some smaller 01:47:50.457 --> 01:47:50.997 countries, 01:47:51.957 --> 01:47:55.259 there are a lot of surprisingly good open 01:47:55.298 --> 01:47:57.259 source projects and internet-related 01:47:57.298 --> 01:47:59.559 projects if you get into the networking 01:47:59.599 --> 01:48:02.199 DNS space coming out of the Czech 01:48:02.319 --> 01:48:02.859 Republic. 01:48:06.461 --> 01:48:07.900 There are some experts in these countries, 01:48:07.940 --> 01:48:08.341 but also... 01:48:10.113 --> 01:48:11.435 It does seem strange to me. 01:48:11.994 --> 01:48:13.234 I mean, I guess it makes sense. 01:48:14.336 --> 01:48:17.337 But does every single EU government need 01:48:17.356 --> 01:48:20.957 to have their own homemade system? 01:48:22.479 --> 01:48:23.819 I don't know if that's the case. 01:48:24.238 --> 01:48:26.699 Maybe they could pool some resources. 01:48:27.520 --> 01:48:29.100 And I guess they sort of are with 01:48:29.581 --> 01:48:30.041 Matrix. 01:48:30.180 --> 01:48:32.061 But yeah, 01:48:33.202 --> 01:48:35.082 it's still a whole situation of standing 01:48:35.122 --> 01:48:37.783 up throughout stuff that probably... 01:48:39.835 --> 01:48:41.275 not the most necessary. 01:48:42.355 --> 01:48:44.237 Someone in the chat said the EU could 01:48:44.296 --> 01:48:46.037 really do with the First Amendment. 01:48:46.217 --> 01:48:47.238 I think a lot of like, 01:48:47.377 --> 01:48:48.779 I think it, I mean, 01:48:48.859 --> 01:48:50.600 I don't really hand things too much to 01:48:50.619 --> 01:48:51.079 the US, 01:48:51.119 --> 01:48:52.520 but I feel like that is pretty much 01:48:52.560 --> 01:48:54.180 the gold standard when it comes to like, 01:48:54.421 --> 01:48:55.681 freedom of speech, I guess. 01:48:55.761 --> 01:48:58.722 I feel like not many other countries have 01:48:58.762 --> 01:49:00.783 such a robust protections. 01:49:01.524 --> 01:49:01.904 Because 01:49:03.466 --> 01:49:04.887 Yeah, I mean, a lot of countries really, 01:49:05.028 --> 01:49:05.507 really don't. 01:49:05.608 --> 01:49:07.409 I think it's taken for granted in the 01:49:07.930 --> 01:49:08.630 in the US. 01:49:09.911 --> 01:49:10.851 And I think a lot of people just 01:49:10.891 --> 01:49:13.753 assume because it's I mean, 01:49:13.793 --> 01:49:15.055 it is a human right. 01:49:15.074 --> 01:49:15.954 You should just have it. 01:49:15.975 --> 01:49:17.176 And I think a lot of people in 01:49:17.216 --> 01:49:20.438 Western countries like assume they just 01:49:20.457 --> 01:49:20.877 have this right. 01:49:20.898 --> 01:49:22.338 And they assume it up until the point 01:49:22.538 --> 01:49:24.100 where they find out they don't. 01:49:25.440 --> 01:49:26.502 And I know there's a lot of complaints 01:49:26.542 --> 01:49:28.363 coming out of like the UK, for example, 01:49:28.403 --> 01:49:28.662 about 01:49:29.923 --> 01:49:31.605 them like really cracking down and 01:49:31.845 --> 01:49:34.908 policing social media stuff uh super super 01:49:35.007 --> 01:49:39.171 strictly um and that's the sort of scary 01:49:39.192 --> 01:49:41.033 thing that's happening in society lately 01:49:41.394 --> 01:49:45.237 um you know the us is not obviously 01:49:45.277 --> 01:49:47.679 not perfect by any means and certainly 01:49:47.719 --> 01:49:51.322 hasn't been great lately but it's good to 01:49:51.341 --> 01:49:53.864 have these legal protections on the books 01:49:54.024 --> 01:49:54.645 even if they 01:49:55.865 --> 01:49:58.769 can get abused um by the government we 01:49:58.788 --> 01:50:00.010 were just talking about fourth amendment 01:50:00.069 --> 01:50:02.813 rights issues earlier so it's not a 01:50:03.073 --> 01:50:06.536 perfect system by any means but it at 01:50:06.595 --> 01:50:08.557 least gives you potentially some some 01:50:08.618 --> 01:50:13.203 recourse and it does usually eventually 01:50:13.283 --> 01:50:15.645 end up happening where um 01:50:16.422 --> 01:50:18.724 like your rights eventually get defended 01:50:19.064 --> 01:50:21.865 in court and precedence is set and like 01:50:21.886 --> 01:50:23.606 this stops being an issue whereas like 01:50:23.627 --> 01:50:25.547 there's there's no reason for that to 01:50:25.587 --> 01:50:27.788 happen in countries without like a 01:50:27.849 --> 01:50:29.529 codified bill of rights in their 01:50:29.569 --> 01:50:32.212 constitution because all of these 01:50:32.252 --> 01:50:35.052 violations unlike in the u.s they they're 01:50:35.092 --> 01:50:36.314 just legal um 01:50:37.306 --> 01:50:39.868 At least if they're illegal in the US 01:50:39.948 --> 01:50:41.248 and the US abuses it, 01:50:41.269 --> 01:50:43.791 there's potentially something that will be 01:50:43.810 --> 01:50:44.970 done. 01:50:46.131 --> 01:50:48.132 I don't really see a way out for 01:50:48.153 --> 01:50:49.833 people in the UK, for example, 01:50:49.934 --> 01:50:54.577 unless they get the law changed and get 01:50:54.596 --> 01:50:55.457 that right established. 01:50:55.597 --> 01:50:58.979 So it's just an extra uphill battle that 01:50:59.000 --> 01:51:00.661 needs to happen in countries that don't 01:51:00.680 --> 01:51:04.783 have this codified into law. 01:51:05.972 --> 01:51:06.212 Yeah, 01:51:06.613 --> 01:51:08.413 I can't believe the founding fathers 01:51:08.453 --> 01:51:10.555 didn't think of data brokers like 01:51:10.796 --> 01:51:12.095 collecting all your information. 01:51:12.256 --> 01:51:12.777 I know. 01:51:12.796 --> 01:51:14.717 That's, like, unfortunate. 01:51:15.278 --> 01:51:16.819 They really did not predict any of the 01:51:16.859 --> 01:51:17.559 problems today. 01:51:17.618 --> 01:51:18.659 I don't know what they were doing. 01:51:18.699 --> 01:51:21.322 They should have got that crystal ball 01:51:21.421 --> 01:51:23.403 out. 01:51:23.483 --> 01:51:24.582 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. 01:51:24.643 --> 01:51:25.684 I definitely agree, like, 01:51:26.524 --> 01:51:28.845 there's people that maybe would deny that, 01:51:28.905 --> 01:51:31.447 but, like, it is pretty much, like, 01:51:31.627 --> 01:51:33.007 it is definitely a pinnacle of... 01:51:35.256 --> 01:51:35.355 yeah, 01:51:35.376 --> 01:51:36.877 there's definitely like stuff that goes on 01:51:37.537 --> 01:51:39.278 in Australia and in Europe where, 01:51:39.337 --> 01:51:40.819 you know, people think that they've, 01:51:41.840 --> 01:51:45.641 they can say anything and not face 01:51:45.742 --> 01:51:47.922 repercussions or not say anything, 01:51:47.943 --> 01:51:49.304 you know, within reason, obviously, 01:51:49.423 --> 01:51:51.704 but it's definitely, 01:51:52.385 --> 01:51:54.225 it's definitely a benefit of that 01:51:54.466 --> 01:51:55.127 jurisdiction. 01:51:57.068 --> 01:51:58.509 But yeah, I think we've kind of, 01:51:58.689 --> 01:51:59.689 do you have anything more to add to 01:51:59.708 --> 01:52:01.810 this story or should we move into some 01:52:01.850 --> 01:52:02.511 forum updates? 01:52:02.997 --> 01:52:03.578 I don't think so. 01:52:03.599 --> 01:52:06.761 I think we could move on. 01:52:06.841 --> 01:52:07.400 All right. 01:52:07.942 --> 01:52:11.704 So I guess moving into forum updates here 01:52:11.805 --> 01:52:12.324 in a minute, 01:52:12.404 --> 01:52:14.286 we'll start taking viewer questions. 01:52:14.367 --> 01:52:16.028 So if you've been holding on to any 01:52:16.068 --> 01:52:17.609 questions about any of the stories we've 01:52:17.649 --> 01:52:19.270 talked about so far, 01:52:19.329 --> 01:52:21.452 go ahead and start leaving them on our 01:52:21.471 --> 01:52:23.613 forum thread or in the comments section on 01:52:23.653 --> 01:52:24.213 the live stream. 01:52:25.895 --> 01:52:26.195 For now, 01:52:26.355 --> 01:52:28.578 let's check in on our community forum. 01:52:28.738 --> 01:52:29.779 And as always, 01:52:29.819 --> 01:52:31.420 there's a lot of activity going on there. 01:52:31.500 --> 01:52:34.282 But this week, the forum, 01:52:34.301 --> 01:52:37.324 we wanted to talk about this thread that 01:52:37.345 --> 01:52:38.966 was kind of popular this week. 01:52:39.185 --> 01:52:42.668 And it's about Bitwarden scrubbing always 01:52:42.729 --> 01:52:45.831 free and inclusion values from its website 01:52:46.490 --> 01:52:49.793 as its longtime executives stepped down. 01:52:52.056 --> 01:52:52.396 Yeah, 01:52:52.417 --> 01:52:54.596 I just posted this article from Fast 01:52:54.636 --> 01:52:57.537 Company to the forum almost a week ago 01:52:57.578 --> 01:53:00.759 because someone sent it to me on Mastodon. 01:53:01.059 --> 01:53:03.078 It's proven to be a little controversial 01:53:03.279 --> 01:53:04.059 on the forum. 01:53:04.338 --> 01:53:05.800 They've rolled back some of these changes, 01:53:05.840 --> 01:53:08.619 so it is a bit more clear on 01:53:08.640 --> 01:53:10.619 their website that the free version, 01:53:11.400 --> 01:53:13.881 they have the always free text back. 01:53:14.081 --> 01:53:17.242 But I mainly shared it because I think 01:53:17.282 --> 01:53:18.761 it's another example of 01:53:20.742 --> 01:53:22.842 David Price- bit warden doing some sketchy 01:53:22.882 --> 01:53:25.765 things post receiving a huge amount of vc 01:53:25.805 --> 01:53:26.284 funding. 01:53:26.385 --> 01:53:27.905 David Price- There was there was another 01:53:28.025 --> 01:53:30.046 issue related to the source code and their 01:53:30.127 --> 01:53:32.128 open source licensing that they eventually 01:53:32.269 --> 01:53:34.029 rolled back and they were like oh oh 01:53:34.069 --> 01:53:35.069 it's a mistake and they. 01:53:35.090 --> 01:53:36.331 David Price- pretty much said the same 01:53:36.350 --> 01:53:37.252 thing about this issue, 01:53:37.292 --> 01:53:39.493 they said it was a it's an oversight 01:53:39.512 --> 01:53:41.413 and they and they made it better, 01:53:41.434 --> 01:53:42.755 but I don't think we need to be. 01:53:44.462 --> 01:53:48.685 policing companies this much and pointing 01:53:48.725 --> 01:53:49.524 out these mistakes, 01:53:49.965 --> 01:53:53.547 I think it just shows that the culture 01:53:53.568 --> 01:53:55.929 at Bitwarden has changed a bit because I 01:53:55.948 --> 01:53:59.030 can't imagine this happening in its 01:53:59.091 --> 01:54:00.952 previous state where it was just a fully 01:54:01.233 --> 01:54:03.434 open source kind of community project and 01:54:03.474 --> 01:54:05.055 not trying to turn into this huge 01:54:05.715 --> 01:54:08.596 corporate juggernaut in the password 01:54:08.636 --> 01:54:09.537 manager space. 01:54:11.546 --> 01:54:13.646 So I think it's just an unfortunate 01:54:13.667 --> 01:54:16.648 direction for Bitwarden. 01:54:18.229 --> 01:54:22.150 And that was mainly the main thing that 01:54:22.211 --> 01:54:23.112 I wanted to point out. 01:54:23.591 --> 01:54:27.954 It's just another step in that bad 01:54:27.975 --> 01:54:31.315 direction that we predicted quite a while 01:54:31.395 --> 01:54:33.077 ago. 01:54:33.136 --> 01:54:35.057 When we talked about this first happening 01:54:35.298 --> 01:54:37.100 and them taking VC money, 01:54:37.479 --> 01:54:39.480 we predicted that 01:54:40.859 --> 01:54:44.020 this sort of thing would happen and that 01:54:44.041 --> 01:54:45.542 changes would be made to bitwarden 01:54:45.643 --> 01:54:47.543 eventually and there would be more of a 01:54:47.564 --> 01:54:50.445 business focus um i think we we just 01:54:50.466 --> 01:54:52.108 talked about wire messenger i think that's 01:54:52.148 --> 01:54:53.488 a good example i don't know if that 01:54:53.529 --> 01:54:55.970 was caused by vc or private equity but 01:54:56.051 --> 01:55:00.434 that sort of shift from like the personal 01:55:00.493 --> 01:55:02.335 consumer side of things to a b to 01:55:02.375 --> 01:55:06.918 b product never really helps consumers and 01:55:09.207 --> 01:55:09.426 Yeah, 01:55:09.606 --> 01:55:13.470 I think that regular consumers of 01:55:13.510 --> 01:55:15.251 Bitwarden are going to be kind of left 01:55:15.291 --> 01:55:15.792 in the dust. 01:55:16.051 --> 01:55:19.453 The nice thing about Bitwarden being open 01:55:19.514 --> 01:55:20.395 source, of course, 01:55:21.055 --> 01:55:24.358 is that if that ever happens and if 01:55:24.398 --> 01:55:26.319 it becomes really serious with Bitwarden, 01:55:28.774 --> 01:55:32.297 I'm very confident that some community of 01:55:32.417 --> 01:55:34.259 open source developers will fork it and 01:55:34.319 --> 01:55:37.261 kind of pick up the torch wherever 01:55:37.481 --> 01:55:40.644 Bitwarden decides to leave off because so 01:55:40.663 --> 01:55:41.885 many people use Bitwarden, 01:55:43.586 --> 01:55:45.408 especially in the open source and tech 01:55:45.427 --> 01:55:45.728 space. 01:55:45.887 --> 01:55:50.631 And there already are open source 01:55:50.692 --> 01:55:51.972 implementations of some 01:55:54.228 --> 01:55:55.689 some functionality of Bitwarden. 01:55:55.729 --> 01:55:57.429 So like there's Vault Warden, for example, 01:55:57.448 --> 01:55:59.810 which lets you self-host the entire server 01:55:59.850 --> 01:56:00.210 backend, 01:56:00.229 --> 01:56:02.850 which is actually probably a large chunk 01:56:02.871 --> 01:56:05.511 of the work that would be required to 01:56:06.152 --> 01:56:07.853 create a fully open source fork. 01:56:07.893 --> 01:56:10.533 All you would need to do is fork 01:56:10.554 --> 01:56:12.873 the Bitwarden client, basically, 01:56:13.154 --> 01:56:15.835 and maintain it going forward in the 01:56:15.854 --> 01:56:16.255 future. 01:56:16.336 --> 01:56:17.515 But everything 01:56:19.451 --> 01:56:21.773 Everything should be fine as far as 01:56:21.832 --> 01:56:23.673 Bitwarden and its longevity. 01:56:23.814 --> 01:56:25.836 You might just have to stop using 01:56:26.936 --> 01:56:29.899 Bitwarden itself at some point and switch 01:56:29.920 --> 01:56:32.862 to maybe a client Vault Gordon makes or 01:56:32.902 --> 01:56:34.523 some other open source project, 01:56:34.603 --> 01:56:36.904 which will be annoying for people, 01:56:36.944 --> 01:56:38.326 but that might just be how it is 01:56:38.345 --> 01:56:40.507 because that's the direction that I really 01:56:40.587 --> 01:56:46.773 see Bitwarden going in, unfortunately. 01:56:46.792 --> 01:56:47.474 Jordan, you're muted. 01:56:49.417 --> 01:56:52.377 I feel like password managers are kind of 01:56:53.279 --> 01:56:56.340 extremely irritating if they go down or if 01:56:56.359 --> 01:56:57.560 like there's an issue where you have to 01:56:57.600 --> 01:57:00.021 switch because I think they contain like 01:57:00.061 --> 01:57:03.682 so much information and especially, 01:57:03.703 --> 01:57:04.663 I don't know, 01:57:04.684 --> 01:57:05.923 this may not be the case for everyone, 01:57:05.984 --> 01:57:07.645 but, you know, I've got family members, 01:57:07.725 --> 01:57:09.706 I've got like friends who are using this 01:57:10.006 --> 01:57:12.926 and, you know, if they were to say, 01:57:13.087 --> 01:57:15.648 you know, remove the free plan, 01:57:15.768 --> 01:57:16.948 I think a lot of people would be 01:57:16.988 --> 01:57:17.248 like, 01:57:18.823 --> 01:57:19.283 I don't know. 01:57:19.302 --> 01:57:20.524 I don't really want to pay for this. 01:57:21.805 --> 01:57:23.645 And because that's just the society we 01:57:23.685 --> 01:57:24.386 live in at this point, 01:57:24.426 --> 01:57:26.929 like people don't want to pay however much 01:57:26.969 --> 01:57:29.310 per month for software that they use, 01:57:29.350 --> 01:57:32.112 which is kind of being normalized by, 01:57:32.412 --> 01:57:32.752 you know, 01:57:32.813 --> 01:57:35.453 everything being driven by advertising. 01:57:36.274 --> 01:57:38.176 And when there's a company like Bitwarden 01:57:38.256 --> 01:57:41.498 who has this really good product, 01:57:43.500 --> 01:57:46.082 I think it's going to 01:57:47.037 --> 01:57:49.958 be more likely that it's going to move 01:57:49.979 --> 01:57:51.260 in a direction where they want to make 01:57:51.340 --> 01:57:51.979 more money with it. 01:57:52.100 --> 01:57:55.101 And if they have a bunch of freeloaders, 01:57:55.421 --> 01:57:56.903 I guess in quotes, 01:57:56.943 --> 01:58:01.145 they're not saying that not paying is not 01:58:01.166 --> 01:58:03.226 good, but some people can't afford it. 01:58:03.306 --> 01:58:06.029 But I think there is definitely probably a 01:58:06.109 --> 01:58:08.529 lot of people using Bitwarden for free and 01:58:09.131 --> 01:58:09.631 not paying, 01:58:09.850 --> 01:58:11.511 and they could convert those users into 01:58:11.551 --> 01:58:12.193 paying users. 01:58:13.193 --> 01:58:13.814 I kind of remember... 01:58:14.701 --> 01:58:15.983 I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, 01:58:16.042 --> 01:58:18.466 but I think this was a similar issue 01:58:18.485 --> 01:58:19.506 with One Password. 01:58:19.567 --> 01:58:21.970 I think they originally were doing a 01:58:22.170 --> 01:58:23.551 one-time purchase model, 01:58:23.652 --> 01:58:25.594 and you could use a local vault. 01:58:25.774 --> 01:58:27.796 And they kind of switched their entire 01:58:27.856 --> 01:58:29.738 business model to be a subscription 01:58:29.798 --> 01:58:30.140 company. 01:58:32.341 --> 01:58:33.863 away from, you know, buy it once. 01:58:33.882 --> 01:58:35.764 I think people are much more likely to 01:58:35.804 --> 01:58:37.725 be fine with buying it once and then 01:58:37.744 --> 01:58:41.386 having it forever than paying for another 01:58:41.426 --> 01:58:43.108 subscription because everything is a 01:58:43.148 --> 01:58:43.747 subscription. 01:58:43.868 --> 01:58:44.328 How, like, 01:58:44.389 --> 01:58:45.548 people are kind of sick of it. 01:58:46.590 --> 01:58:48.051 Well, just look at Plex. 01:58:48.070 --> 01:58:49.291 Did we talk about that last week or 01:58:49.430 --> 01:58:50.631 did I just talk about it online? 01:58:53.974 --> 01:58:56.335 Because Plex is raising their lifetime 01:58:56.375 --> 01:58:59.516 price to seven hundred fifty dollars, 01:58:59.577 --> 01:59:02.057 which is insane because they obviously 01:59:02.118 --> 01:59:03.618 want people to sign up for their I 01:59:03.658 --> 01:59:05.560 think it's sixty or seventy dollar a year. 01:59:06.119 --> 01:59:10.442 So like yearly subscription, right? 01:59:10.481 --> 01:59:11.542 They just really want to. 01:59:12.823 --> 01:59:13.885 build that recurring revenue. 01:59:13.944 --> 01:59:17.087 And I think that all of these problems 01:59:17.106 --> 01:59:19.087 that people have with Plex developed 01:59:19.507 --> 01:59:22.050 because of VC funding in that case as 01:59:22.109 --> 01:59:22.409 well. 01:59:22.569 --> 01:59:24.850 And it's the same case for OnePassword. 01:59:24.871 --> 01:59:26.532 They really focused on the business side 01:59:26.551 --> 01:59:27.113 of things. 01:59:28.592 --> 01:59:29.173 And of course, 01:59:29.394 --> 01:59:32.315 open source alternatives do arise. 01:59:32.336 --> 01:59:34.476 A lot of people switch to Jellyfin. 01:59:34.676 --> 01:59:35.398 A lot of people... 01:59:36.653 --> 01:59:39.155 don't because jellyfin isn't as good yet, 01:59:39.195 --> 01:59:39.856 unfortunately. 01:59:42.621 --> 01:59:45.984 But yeah, to play devil's advocate a bit. 01:59:46.565 --> 01:59:48.548 There are some companies that 01:59:50.171 --> 01:59:54.614 kind of use the business to business model 01:59:54.654 --> 01:59:57.176 to kind of subsidize a different consumer 01:59:57.216 --> 01:59:59.800 plan which is good i says i'm pretty 01:59:59.819 --> 02:00:01.220 sure that's what bitwarden is doing 02:00:01.520 --> 02:00:03.483 currently i think i've read somewhere that 02:00:03.502 --> 02:00:05.283 they just don't make money on the consumer 02:00:05.304 --> 02:00:07.246 side of things but they keep it around 02:00:07.326 --> 02:00:08.386 but they get all their funding from 02:00:08.426 --> 02:00:11.750 businesses which which makes sense um one 02:00:11.789 --> 02:00:14.412 password is in the same boat you could 02:00:14.431 --> 02:00:16.814 definitely say that about something like 02:00:17.414 --> 02:00:21.537 matrix an element because they certainly 02:00:21.597 --> 02:00:23.259 are getting most of their money from big 02:00:23.300 --> 02:00:25.320 businesses that are signing up for chat or 02:00:25.560 --> 02:00:27.021 all of these government agencies that are 02:00:27.042 --> 02:00:29.543 now adopting it i can't imagine they make 02:00:30.885 --> 02:00:33.287 like barely any money from matrix.org 02:00:33.327 --> 02:00:35.809 itself we just we just benefit from it 02:00:36.189 --> 02:00:36.829 we talked about 02:00:37.537 --> 02:00:39.938 Cape, the cell phone carrier last week, 02:00:40.198 --> 02:00:43.078 they recently launched a consumer plan 02:00:43.298 --> 02:00:45.960 that there's no way they're making money 02:00:46.039 --> 02:00:46.140 on, 02:00:46.199 --> 02:00:48.779 but they probably make enough from 02:00:49.360 --> 02:00:50.581 business contracts and government 02:00:50.621 --> 02:00:51.100 contracts. 02:00:52.140 --> 02:00:52.841 The list goes on. 02:00:52.902 --> 02:00:57.122 The problem we see with that is a 02:00:57.162 --> 02:00:59.043 lot of the times that only holds true 02:00:59.184 --> 02:01:02.203 under the current leadership. 02:01:03.444 --> 02:01:03.664 And 02:01:05.751 --> 02:01:07.613 it's inevitable that leadership of a 02:01:07.673 --> 02:01:09.356 company will change. 02:01:09.596 --> 02:01:12.882 And it almost never changes to people who 02:01:13.222 --> 02:01:13.884 maintain that. 02:01:15.793 --> 02:01:19.155 Maybe Bitwarden is dedicated to keeping 02:01:19.176 --> 02:01:19.555 this up, 02:01:20.096 --> 02:01:22.557 but that dedication is only going to last 02:01:22.677 --> 02:01:27.220 as long as the people in charge want 02:01:27.261 --> 02:01:27.600 it to. 02:01:27.980 --> 02:01:29.742 And when they get replaced, 02:01:29.782 --> 02:01:31.903 which also could happen more easily 02:01:32.023 --> 02:01:33.224 because of their VC funding, 02:01:33.344 --> 02:01:36.586 those VC funds might kick them out if 02:01:36.626 --> 02:01:37.407 they don't like them enough. 02:01:37.426 --> 02:01:40.847 Who knows how much shareholder voting 02:01:40.889 --> 02:01:41.609 power they have. 02:01:41.649 --> 02:01:43.069 It's probably a significant amount. 02:01:44.703 --> 02:01:46.925 Things can take a turn at any time 02:01:47.744 --> 02:01:49.505 once you switch to this model instead of 02:01:49.704 --> 02:01:51.386 going all in on the consumer side. 02:01:51.586 --> 02:01:55.966 So yeah, I remain concerned. 02:01:56.627 --> 02:01:57.707 It's possible, though, 02:01:57.886 --> 02:02:00.087 that with all of those companies I 02:02:00.108 --> 02:02:00.448 mentioned, 02:02:00.547 --> 02:02:02.128 it might not be a concern for us 02:02:02.168 --> 02:02:03.668 for a good long while. 02:02:03.849 --> 02:02:06.270 But you just never know. 02:02:07.050 --> 02:02:07.829 That's the big problem. 02:02:09.507 --> 02:02:11.628 yeah i think also i don't know i've 02:02:11.769 --> 02:02:15.829 kind of almost become very hesitant of 02:02:15.890 --> 02:02:18.791 companies that take vc funding now because 02:02:18.990 --> 02:02:21.171 of this cycle it just keeps happening over 02:02:21.192 --> 02:02:23.752 and over again like i just should i 02:02:23.792 --> 02:02:27.274 move my data to this company that's may 02:02:27.314 --> 02:02:29.395 not exist or be sold on to someone 02:02:29.435 --> 02:02:30.314 someone else or may 02:02:31.106 --> 02:02:32.948 completely change its values based on, 02:02:33.247 --> 02:02:33.688 you know, 02:02:33.768 --> 02:02:36.509 investors in the company wanting changes. 02:02:38.069 --> 02:02:40.490 I think, yeah, it is definitely a concern, 02:02:40.591 --> 02:02:43.431 but I think at least in the password 02:02:43.471 --> 02:02:44.292 manager space, 02:02:44.351 --> 02:02:45.712 we have so many good options. 02:02:45.752 --> 02:02:48.474 Like if you don't like Bitwarden proton 02:02:48.514 --> 02:02:49.975 pass, if you don't like proton pass, 02:02:49.994 --> 02:02:50.715 there's key pass. 02:02:50.755 --> 02:02:51.314 If you don't like, 02:02:52.796 --> 02:02:55.936 I know we recommend CYONO as well. 02:02:56.317 --> 02:02:57.818 That's like a German one, I think. 02:02:58.318 --> 02:02:59.238 So, you know, there's lots of, 02:02:59.458 --> 02:02:59.979 there's lots of, 02:03:01.436 --> 02:03:02.377 options, I think. 02:03:05.158 --> 02:03:06.259 And I think, you know, 02:03:06.338 --> 02:03:07.979 if you don't like this direction, 02:03:08.020 --> 02:03:09.701 if you're starting to feel like this is 02:03:11.161 --> 02:03:12.561 going in a direction that you don't want 02:03:12.582 --> 02:03:13.282 to be part of, 02:03:14.643 --> 02:03:15.962 I think it might be, 02:03:16.123 --> 02:03:17.083 this might be a sign 02:03:17.952 --> 02:03:19.592 a sign of the times that the, 02:03:19.653 --> 02:03:22.994 that this might need to basically, 02:03:23.376 --> 02:03:24.957 you might need to start switching things 02:03:25.117 --> 02:03:26.837 up or at least be ready to switch 02:03:27.257 --> 02:03:30.060 if something worse does happen. 02:03:30.119 --> 02:03:30.579 But I mean, 02:03:30.761 --> 02:03:34.622 I feel like the main business model of 02:03:34.662 --> 02:03:36.363 password managers is to protect your 02:03:36.404 --> 02:03:37.005 information. 02:03:37.244 --> 02:03:39.206 So I feel like if they're not protecting 02:03:39.225 --> 02:03:40.266 your information well enough, 02:03:40.346 --> 02:03:41.887 or if they're making security 02:03:44.253 --> 02:03:45.033 compromises, 02:03:45.094 --> 02:03:47.055 then that's kind of compromising the 02:03:47.095 --> 02:03:47.574 product. 02:03:47.935 --> 02:03:51.576 And I think that's at least the security 02:03:51.655 --> 02:03:53.975 aspect is safe. 02:03:54.136 --> 02:03:55.336 I think that you could say the same 02:03:55.376 --> 02:03:56.377 about one password. 02:03:56.436 --> 02:03:57.117 I think it's, 02:03:58.176 --> 02:03:59.756 it is got a lot of VC funding, 02:03:59.856 --> 02:04:02.257 but at least the security aspect seems 02:04:02.278 --> 02:04:05.257 like something that they would never 02:04:05.457 --> 02:04:06.338 compromise on. 02:04:06.359 --> 02:04:09.038 So I don't know. 02:04:09.599 --> 02:04:12.800 It's just an unfortunate situation that a 02:04:12.840 --> 02:04:13.359 lot of these 02:04:14.627 --> 02:04:17.689 Some of these projects at least are VC 02:04:17.711 --> 02:04:20.171 funded and there are risks with that. 02:04:20.292 --> 02:04:24.055 But at least right now there is no 02:04:24.676 --> 02:04:26.197 active concern, I think, 02:04:26.337 --> 02:04:27.979 with this direction. 02:04:28.639 --> 02:04:32.742 I think it's definitely a caution. 02:04:32.801 --> 02:04:35.003 I'm proceeding with caution. 02:04:35.645 --> 02:04:38.167 But I think if we see more changes 02:04:38.207 --> 02:04:38.487 happening, 02:04:39.764 --> 02:04:43.269 that affect the product we might have to 02:04:44.310 --> 02:04:48.375 um you know re-look into the into the 02:04:48.395 --> 02:04:49.756 product but right now it seems like 02:04:49.796 --> 02:04:52.841 they're they're 02:04:54.587 --> 02:04:57.689 Their direction is to continue being a 02:04:57.829 --> 02:04:59.030 secure password manager. 02:04:59.431 --> 02:05:03.274 That's their main focus, at least. 02:05:03.314 --> 02:05:03.654 Yeah, 02:05:03.675 --> 02:05:04.715 just got to keep an eye on it. 02:05:04.996 --> 02:05:07.717 There's another password manager that I've 02:05:07.877 --> 02:05:10.359 seen around called Passbolt, too. 02:05:10.479 --> 02:05:11.841 I need to look into them again because 02:05:11.881 --> 02:05:12.161 I know... 02:05:14.127 --> 02:05:16.890 I don't remember the reason we didn't want 02:05:16.911 --> 02:05:17.872 to list them at the time, 02:05:17.953 --> 02:05:19.774 but they seem to be doing something 02:05:19.835 --> 02:05:20.076 unique. 02:05:20.155 --> 02:05:22.179 Anyways, I say that just to say, 02:05:23.039 --> 02:05:27.024 if anyone has used Passport and wants to 02:05:27.064 --> 02:05:29.368 let me know more about it, 02:05:31.514 --> 02:05:33.194 can share in the chat or definitely post 02:05:33.234 --> 02:05:34.494 it on on the forum because i would 02:05:34.515 --> 02:05:35.935 love to take another look at it that 02:05:36.076 --> 02:05:38.457 is more team focused but it seems like 02:05:39.577 --> 02:05:41.057 you could easily just use it as a 02:05:41.137 --> 02:05:44.158 personal or like a family password manager 02:05:44.198 --> 02:05:47.180 so and it's in its open source and 02:05:47.199 --> 02:05:48.600 stuff again i haven't i haven't looked 02:05:48.640 --> 02:05:51.721 into it but they've been around a while 02:05:52.122 --> 02:05:55.423 and i definitely want to so 02:05:58.390 --> 02:05:59.511 Yeah, I like companies. 02:06:00.773 --> 02:06:01.974 I'm mainly interested in them because they 02:06:02.014 --> 02:06:03.734 make it very easy to self-host and they 02:06:03.755 --> 02:06:05.716 make it their prominent thing. 02:06:05.777 --> 02:06:07.037 I think they have a cloud service, 02:06:07.118 --> 02:06:10.300 but it's always a good sign, I think, 02:06:10.359 --> 02:06:12.761 when they make the option pretty easy. 02:06:13.302 --> 02:06:14.283 Self-hosting Bitwarden, 02:06:15.203 --> 02:06:16.064 somewhat challenging. 02:06:16.845 --> 02:06:18.426 Exactly why Vaultwarden exists, 02:06:18.447 --> 02:06:20.908 because the official stuff is hard. 02:06:21.708 --> 02:06:22.850 So, yeah. 02:06:25.488 --> 02:06:26.128 Fair enough. 02:06:26.529 --> 02:06:27.710 I guess here we've kind of, 02:06:28.270 --> 02:06:30.770 this discussion has kind of covered 02:06:30.810 --> 02:06:31.832 everything we need here. 02:06:32.171 --> 02:06:34.472 I guess we could kind of move into 02:06:34.752 --> 02:06:35.953 taking some questions. 02:06:35.993 --> 02:06:39.314 I'm not seeing any in the chat or... 02:06:39.975 --> 02:06:40.956 Yeah, if you have any questions, 02:06:41.775 --> 02:06:42.917 this is a good time to share. 02:06:42.957 --> 02:06:44.016 I'm sure I'm in the chat. 02:06:44.256 --> 02:06:47.057 I did see a comment if I scroll 02:06:48.439 --> 02:06:49.298 up here somewhere. 02:06:49.760 --> 02:06:50.159 It wasn't... 02:06:52.405 --> 02:06:53.086 It wasn't a question. 02:06:53.166 --> 02:06:54.487 Oh, yeah, there it is from Hello. 02:06:54.766 --> 02:06:55.847 I just wanted to thank you for the 02:06:55.868 --> 02:06:58.389 feedback on the form, 02:06:59.328 --> 02:07:01.289 especially because I was literally last 02:07:01.350 --> 02:07:03.690 week thinking about changing it to maybe 02:07:03.730 --> 02:07:07.092 that category view because the latest 02:07:07.113 --> 02:07:08.734 section can get a bit overwhelming, 02:07:08.814 --> 02:07:12.275 but also I do like it as well. 02:07:12.456 --> 02:07:15.917 So this is good feedback to know because 02:07:15.957 --> 02:07:18.639 I've definitely seen that on other forms 02:07:18.738 --> 02:07:21.060 and feel kind of mixed about it. 02:07:27.681 --> 02:07:29.404 I always do that view when I'm on 02:07:29.444 --> 02:07:29.885 the forum, 02:07:29.984 --> 02:07:32.627 so that is definitely a good change. 02:07:32.748 --> 02:07:34.310 The categories here or the latest? 02:07:35.072 --> 02:07:37.875 I always go to latest first, so yeah. 02:07:37.895 --> 02:07:44.283 That should be the default, but yeah. 02:07:44.323 --> 02:07:46.025 We'll probably keep it as the default. 02:07:47.730 --> 02:07:48.311 Yeah, I agree. 02:07:48.612 --> 02:07:50.914 I definitely think it's the better view. 02:07:51.414 --> 02:07:53.877 We did get a comment here again on 02:07:54.179 --> 02:07:58.444 our forum post from XMR chat, please. 02:07:58.644 --> 02:08:00.907 This is a request to add XMR chat 02:08:00.966 --> 02:08:01.908 to the live stream. 02:08:04.931 --> 02:08:05.431 Yeah, I mean, 02:08:05.471 --> 02:08:07.212 we can look into it and we can 02:08:07.432 --> 02:08:07.893 try. 02:08:07.953 --> 02:08:10.875 But I mean, as Jonah said, 02:08:10.895 --> 02:08:12.456 there's like a whole website redesign 02:08:12.496 --> 02:08:12.975 going on. 02:08:12.996 --> 02:08:14.657 It's like all these projects going on at 02:08:14.697 --> 02:08:15.356 the same time. 02:08:16.497 --> 02:08:18.198 We do accept Monero though. 02:08:18.578 --> 02:08:19.498 I was going to say, 02:08:19.698 --> 02:08:21.039 and it's probably one of the things that 02:08:21.140 --> 02:08:24.220 makes XMR chat a bit tricky because we 02:08:24.261 --> 02:08:29.002 accept Monero through BTC pay server right 02:08:29.042 --> 02:08:30.003 now, which kind of like... 02:08:30.956 --> 02:08:33.617 I believe it generates a new Monero 02:08:33.658 --> 02:08:36.338 address per person, basically, 02:08:36.819 --> 02:08:38.840 so you can get your receipt and stuff. 02:08:41.502 --> 02:08:43.882 We don't just have a single Monero address 02:08:43.922 --> 02:08:45.844 to send Monero to. 02:08:47.425 --> 02:08:49.265 Maybe we can get one, though. 02:08:49.805 --> 02:08:50.126 I don't know. 02:08:50.185 --> 02:08:52.247 I haven't asked if we can do that, 02:08:52.328 --> 02:08:54.908 so I would have to just look into 02:08:54.929 --> 02:08:56.489 that more and see how it works. 02:08:58.644 --> 02:09:00.730 yeah definitely uh definitely more of a 02:09:00.771 --> 02:09:03.680 magic grants question i think um 02:09:05.273 --> 02:09:05.853 Another thing, 02:09:05.912 --> 02:09:08.253 if we don't have any questions yet, 02:09:08.354 --> 02:09:11.154 I wanted to point out another form post 02:09:11.194 --> 02:09:13.293 that's currently in the latest view right 02:09:13.333 --> 02:09:14.755 now because it was updated recently. 02:09:15.675 --> 02:09:17.854 There was a post in the Project Showcase 02:09:17.994 --> 02:09:21.296 that got a bit of traction because they 02:09:21.315 --> 02:09:25.556 are working on an open source home camera 02:09:25.596 --> 02:09:26.436 security system. 02:09:26.936 --> 02:09:29.096 They just posted an update to the form 02:09:30.457 --> 02:09:32.297 with a lot of changes that they've worked 02:09:32.358 --> 02:09:33.018 on over the past... 02:09:33.755 --> 02:09:35.735 few months, which look pretty cool. 02:09:35.775 --> 02:09:39.476 So I got to look into this project 02:09:39.577 --> 02:09:40.837 again a bit more. 02:09:41.438 --> 02:09:43.958 It's called Secluso. 02:09:44.479 --> 02:09:46.800 But they're very active on the forum if 02:09:46.840 --> 02:09:47.439 you ask questions. 02:09:47.479 --> 02:09:49.161 So I just wanted to point that out 02:09:49.180 --> 02:09:52.261 because if anyone is looking into home 02:09:52.402 --> 02:09:54.603 security cameras or wants to check out an 02:09:54.682 --> 02:09:55.722 open source solution, 02:09:56.884 --> 02:09:58.304 I think that they would at least be 02:09:58.363 --> 02:10:00.784 good to chat with on the forum because 02:10:00.805 --> 02:10:02.326 they're there and can answer your 02:10:02.365 --> 02:10:03.466 questions as opposed to 02:10:04.940 --> 02:10:06.442 opposed to some other things but i gotta 02:10:06.462 --> 02:10:09.944 check it out myself to see how good 02:10:10.003 --> 02:10:13.586 it is yeah it definitely looks interesting 02:10:13.706 --> 02:10:16.988 i think also we've kind of had discussions 02:10:17.068 --> 02:10:19.389 internally about like would we would we 02:10:19.448 --> 02:10:24.011 ever cover like you know home automation 02:10:24.712 --> 02:10:26.833 security stuff um so maybe 02:10:28.014 --> 02:10:29.734 i know this there hasn't really been like 02:10:29.835 --> 02:10:33.318 that many good options to like yeah that's 02:10:33.377 --> 02:10:34.779 what i was gonna say the home automation 02:10:34.798 --> 02:10:36.640 stuff is kind of tricky because like i've 02:10:36.659 --> 02:10:38.180 been messing with all that stuff 02:10:39.202 --> 02:10:42.083 personally around my house over the past 02:10:42.144 --> 02:10:46.646 year and some stuff is working but a 02:10:46.686 --> 02:10:48.648 lot of stuff is not working super well 02:10:48.688 --> 02:10:51.869 unfortunately um and it's something that i 02:10:51.890 --> 02:10:55.733 mean we definitely want to base all of 02:10:55.752 --> 02:10:57.274 the stuff that we're writing on 02:10:58.073 --> 02:10:59.735 community feedback and what people 02:10:59.855 --> 02:11:02.279 generally agree is the best solution and 02:11:03.139 --> 02:11:06.622 there's not a lot of like consensus on 02:11:06.662 --> 02:11:10.587 the forum about what's actually good um 02:11:12.518 --> 02:11:14.859 or like experiences being shared. 02:11:14.939 --> 02:11:17.359 So again, I keep talking about the forum, 02:11:17.399 --> 02:11:19.458 but I think if you have any insight 02:11:19.579 --> 02:11:21.279 into the home automation space, 02:11:21.399 --> 02:11:24.761 it would be very helpful for you to 02:11:24.801 --> 02:11:25.461 share it there. 02:11:25.680 --> 02:11:27.621 And so we can get a bit more 02:11:27.680 --> 02:11:32.042 ideas of things to look into. 02:11:32.341 --> 02:11:32.521 Yeah, 02:11:32.542 --> 02:11:34.243 I also think like I feel like the 02:11:34.283 --> 02:11:37.403 smart home ecosystem is like incredibly 02:11:37.443 --> 02:11:38.363 hard to navigate, 02:11:38.382 --> 02:11:40.283 like there's so many standards, 02:11:40.304 --> 02:11:40.904 there's so many 02:11:41.703 --> 02:11:44.824 downsides, upsides, all these, every, 02:11:44.925 --> 02:11:47.405 all these protocols it's, and then, 02:11:47.445 --> 02:11:47.666 you know, 02:11:47.706 --> 02:11:49.587 there's also the thing of where are these 02:11:49.627 --> 02:11:50.667 products even available? 02:11:50.707 --> 02:11:50.907 Like, 02:11:50.987 --> 02:11:52.768 are these products available globally? 02:11:52.787 --> 02:11:54.509 Like if we were to recommend something 02:11:54.588 --> 02:11:57.149 that let's say is very popular in Europe, 02:11:57.208 --> 02:11:58.489 but then it's not popular in the U 02:11:58.710 --> 02:11:59.710 S and it's like, well, 02:12:00.511 --> 02:12:02.211 that's not really very useful. 02:12:02.310 --> 02:12:02.610 Is it? 02:12:02.912 --> 02:12:05.452 Um, so I dunno, it is, 02:12:06.412 --> 02:12:07.953 I'm kind of curious to hear what other 02:12:07.972 --> 02:12:08.552 people think. 02:12:09.493 --> 02:12:09.673 Um, 02:12:10.885 --> 02:12:11.284 But yeah, 02:12:11.324 --> 02:12:12.725 I've been messing around with it a bit, 02:12:12.765 --> 02:12:16.608 but not really with, at least here, 02:12:16.627 --> 02:12:18.088 a lot of the stuff is basically all 02:12:18.128 --> 02:12:18.569 matter. 02:12:21.951 --> 02:12:23.612 And that has another set of problems 02:12:24.552 --> 02:12:26.413 compared to other standards. 02:12:27.953 --> 02:12:29.935 Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of matter. 02:12:30.195 --> 02:12:32.277 I know some people in our chats are, 02:12:32.337 --> 02:12:32.556 but 02:12:34.002 --> 02:12:34.402 I don't know. 02:12:34.561 --> 02:12:37.583 I'll have to write up all my grievances 02:12:37.623 --> 02:12:38.085 sometime. 02:12:38.185 --> 02:12:39.886 I got to get my thoughts together on 02:12:39.905 --> 02:12:43.969 all this smart home stuff. 02:12:44.009 --> 02:12:44.269 Yeah. 02:12:44.288 --> 02:12:46.569 Oh, we got a comment here from Cannabida. 02:12:46.590 --> 02:12:48.712 Would be cool to see some privacy guidance 02:12:48.731 --> 02:12:49.993 when it comes to cars. 02:12:50.012 --> 02:12:52.213 They collect huge amounts of data. 02:12:52.413 --> 02:12:53.534 Yeah. 02:12:55.461 --> 02:12:59.261 just don't drive one no um it's it's 02:12:59.481 --> 02:13:02.783 it's hard um and it's especially hard 02:13:02.842 --> 02:13:06.283 nowadays because not only do you have to 02:13:06.302 --> 02:13:07.923 be worried about your car but you're just 02:13:08.003 --> 02:13:10.184 being tracked by all these cameras that 02:13:10.203 --> 02:13:12.725 people are putting in um tracking you by 02:13:12.744 --> 02:13:16.886 your license plate so yeah surveillance 02:13:16.905 --> 02:13:18.426 while traveling is uh 02:13:19.689 --> 02:13:22.650 very very tough right now uh as far 02:13:22.690 --> 02:13:25.292 as i understand it as uh when it 02:13:25.332 --> 02:13:29.673 comes to cars really the only usable 02:13:29.713 --> 02:13:32.154 solution is to buy like a car from 02:13:33.115 --> 02:13:36.577 or earlier it can't be a fancy car 02:13:36.676 --> 02:13:38.877 in i mean they have they'd already been 02:13:38.917 --> 02:13:41.179 doing some crazy stuff then but like if 02:13:41.198 --> 02:13:43.801 you get a a normal car probably isn't 02:13:43.980 --> 02:13:46.662 like fully computerized yet so uh 02:13:47.481 --> 02:13:48.422 But yeah, 02:13:49.524 --> 02:13:51.046 that's not a great solution for everybody, 02:13:51.926 --> 02:13:52.386 certainly. 02:13:53.287 --> 02:13:57.572 Especially if you don't want to deal with 02:13:57.612 --> 02:13:58.712 a lot of car things, 02:13:58.752 --> 02:14:00.134 because an older car is probably going to 02:14:00.154 --> 02:14:03.356 have more problems than a brand new one. 02:14:03.797 --> 02:14:07.121 But I don't really know of any... 02:14:08.972 --> 02:14:10.354 great solutions to this problem. 02:14:11.675 --> 02:14:14.037 This is another thing that we don't get 02:14:14.117 --> 02:14:15.838 a lot of information from. 02:14:16.559 --> 02:14:21.103 So I either assume nobody in the community 02:14:21.143 --> 02:14:22.923 that we have really knows a lot about 02:14:22.963 --> 02:14:23.064 it, 02:14:23.244 --> 02:14:24.865 or it's just not a topic that a 02:14:24.905 --> 02:14:26.948 lot of people here are super interested 02:14:27.007 --> 02:14:27.127 in. 02:14:27.268 --> 02:14:30.229 So that makes it challenging to know what 02:14:30.270 --> 02:14:31.190 to look into as well. 02:14:33.162 --> 02:14:33.363 I mean, 02:14:33.403 --> 02:14:36.105 this is kind of something that came up 02:14:36.145 --> 02:14:36.645 in the news. 02:14:36.706 --> 02:14:38.868 I'm personally not someone that drives or 02:14:38.929 --> 02:14:39.668 has ever driven, 02:14:39.769 --> 02:14:42.011 but I did see that there's this brand 02:14:42.030 --> 02:14:44.073 called Rivian that said they're allowing 02:14:44.113 --> 02:14:46.576 you to disable all data connectivity in 02:14:46.615 --> 02:14:47.417 their cars. 02:14:47.737 --> 02:14:48.337 Okay. 02:14:48.398 --> 02:14:49.057 I did see that. 02:14:49.217 --> 02:14:50.960 Hello literally just asked about that. 02:14:51.039 --> 02:14:52.140 And I had not seen that news. 02:14:52.180 --> 02:14:55.203 So that's good to bring it up. 02:14:56.024 --> 02:14:57.845 Do you know any more about it other 02:14:57.867 --> 02:14:58.207 than that? 02:14:59.597 --> 02:15:00.099 In fact, 02:15:00.458 --> 02:15:03.101 there was actually a thread on the forum 02:15:03.141 --> 02:15:06.885 about this already because someone was 02:15:07.565 --> 02:15:08.266 wondering, you know, 02:15:08.306 --> 02:15:09.667 like how does this work? 02:15:09.728 --> 02:15:12.329 Like is this like an airplane thing, 02:15:12.390 --> 02:15:13.752 like airplane mode feature? 02:15:13.792 --> 02:15:16.474 Like how does this work? 02:15:16.694 --> 02:15:18.957 And, yeah, it's in their support page. 02:15:18.976 --> 02:15:21.338 Like if you go to Rivian and you 02:15:21.378 --> 02:15:22.600 go to their support website, 02:15:23.121 --> 02:15:24.381 it does say that, 02:15:25.626 --> 02:15:27.606 you can choose to do that and it 02:15:27.926 --> 02:15:29.768 prevents all data leaving the vehicle, 02:15:30.408 --> 02:15:32.149 but it disables some functionality. 02:15:33.270 --> 02:15:36.150 I think this is quite interesting. 02:15:36.190 --> 02:15:37.952 Like I feel like no other car 02:15:37.971 --> 02:15:39.993 manufacturers had this as an option 02:15:40.012 --> 02:15:40.512 before. 02:15:40.893 --> 02:15:42.953 And I guess, 02:15:43.354 --> 02:15:45.034 I think one thing with this though is 02:15:46.114 --> 02:15:48.235 it needs a bit of third party testing. 02:15:48.556 --> 02:15:48.896 I think, 02:15:49.556 --> 02:15:52.217 I think I wouldn't trust this a hundred 02:15:52.238 --> 02:15:52.557 percent. 02:15:52.597 --> 02:15:53.238 Like, is this, 02:15:55.189 --> 02:15:56.329 I would think you would have to do 02:15:56.350 --> 02:15:57.850 a bit of testing to make sure this 02:15:57.890 --> 02:15:59.011 is actually the case. 02:16:01.011 --> 02:16:04.471 I'm very confused about this. 02:16:04.532 --> 02:16:05.773 I'm looking at their support page. 02:16:07.273 --> 02:16:09.213 They say it'll limit or disable certain 02:16:09.234 --> 02:16:10.493 functionality in the vehicle, 02:16:10.533 --> 02:16:11.875 and their list is navigation, 02:16:12.015 --> 02:16:13.034 active lane centering, 02:16:13.135 --> 02:16:14.416 over-the-air updates, 02:16:14.475 --> 02:16:15.636 which provide new features, 02:16:15.676 --> 02:16:17.197 better performance, safety enhancements, 02:16:17.237 --> 02:16:17.976 and bug fixes. 02:16:21.145 --> 02:16:22.989 Losing over-the-air updates obviously 02:16:23.170 --> 02:16:26.457 makes sense because it's like you disable 02:16:26.478 --> 02:16:26.939 connections. 02:16:28.162 --> 02:16:29.043 I feel like 02:16:31.067 --> 02:16:33.868 it this we should still this technology 02:16:33.907 --> 02:16:36.270 should still exist because ten, 02:16:36.309 --> 02:16:38.050 fifteen years ago you could get a car 02:16:38.091 --> 02:16:40.752 with navigation and it would work without 02:16:40.791 --> 02:16:41.272 the internet. 02:16:41.332 --> 02:16:43.052 Like you can download an offline map. 02:16:43.272 --> 02:16:46.795 So should and maybe that is the case 02:16:46.834 --> 02:16:46.995 here. 02:16:47.075 --> 02:16:48.556 I guess they do say it will limit 02:16:48.716 --> 02:16:49.877 or disable it. 02:16:49.936 --> 02:16:52.757 So I don't have a Rivian obviously can't 02:16:52.778 --> 02:16:53.257 test this. 02:16:53.358 --> 02:16:55.138 Maybe maybe it is just offline maps and 02:16:55.158 --> 02:16:55.620 that's fine. 02:16:57.480 --> 02:16:57.720 You know, 02:16:58.120 --> 02:17:00.061 you lose out on some cool stuff like 02:17:02.136 --> 02:17:03.156 Traffic or whatever, 02:17:03.316 --> 02:17:06.718 but probably not the worst thing in the 02:17:06.759 --> 02:17:07.120 world. 02:17:08.800 --> 02:17:11.622 What I don't know is whether Rivian 02:17:12.003 --> 02:17:12.703 supports... 02:17:14.338 --> 02:17:16.540 Apple CarPlay or Android Auto, 02:17:16.620 --> 02:17:18.561 I would be curious about that because this 02:17:18.583 --> 02:17:21.524 would be a very cool feature if you 02:17:21.545 --> 02:17:25.487 could use your phone for all of the 02:17:25.628 --> 02:17:27.269 infotainment stuff and you could still get 02:17:27.328 --> 02:17:31.592 things like whatever Maps app you want and 02:17:31.653 --> 02:17:33.353 music streaming and all that other stuff 02:17:35.454 --> 02:17:37.877 without having to do it through the car 02:17:37.916 --> 02:17:39.498 sending and receiving data. 02:17:40.199 --> 02:17:41.540 But I don't know if Ravine supports that. 02:17:41.579 --> 02:17:43.541 Some car companies don't. 02:17:45.677 --> 02:17:48.941 So I'm sorry to break it to you, 02:17:48.980 --> 02:17:49.320 Jonah, 02:17:49.341 --> 02:17:51.503 but they don't support Android Auto or 02:17:51.542 --> 02:17:52.063 CarPlay. 02:17:52.123 --> 02:17:53.424 That is crazy. 02:17:55.306 --> 02:17:58.468 They should do that. 02:17:58.929 --> 02:18:00.730 I think Tesla added it now. 02:18:00.751 --> 02:18:02.412 They were a holdout for a very long 02:18:02.451 --> 02:18:02.691 time, 02:18:03.733 --> 02:18:06.515 and they finally got on board to some 02:18:06.536 --> 02:18:06.976 degree. 02:18:07.396 --> 02:18:10.619 So yeah, that is a shame. 02:18:10.658 --> 02:18:12.681 That makes the whole prospect... 02:18:14.147 --> 02:18:18.269 a bit worse, because I don't know, 02:18:18.909 --> 02:18:20.531 it's good to have this sort of privacy, 02:18:20.650 --> 02:18:25.013 but there often isn't like a need for 02:18:25.052 --> 02:18:27.075 it to come at the expense of too 02:18:27.094 --> 02:18:27.834 many features, 02:18:27.934 --> 02:18:30.296 or there are like private ways to alter 02:18:30.676 --> 02:18:32.638 to offer it alternatively, 02:18:32.657 --> 02:18:34.599 that maybe aren't the full experience, 02:18:34.619 --> 02:18:35.199 but they get like, 02:18:35.238 --> 02:18:36.940 ninety percent of the way there. 02:18:37.340 --> 02:18:38.681 And I think people will put up with 02:18:38.720 --> 02:18:38.980 that. 02:18:40.923 --> 02:18:41.563 Whereas here, 02:18:43.208 --> 02:18:44.308 Like, is this going to, 02:18:44.449 --> 02:18:48.833 can you not get Spotify in your car 02:18:48.893 --> 02:18:49.233 anymore? 02:18:49.272 --> 02:18:50.093 Is that how it works? 02:18:50.273 --> 02:18:51.855 Do you have to do it, like, through, 02:18:52.156 --> 02:18:54.058 do you have to do music through Bluetooth? 02:18:55.338 --> 02:18:56.520 Yeah, I mean, you, 02:18:58.081 --> 02:18:59.441 some of this functionality I think is 02:18:59.541 --> 02:18:59.942 useful. 02:19:00.722 --> 02:19:03.706 Some of it is not. 02:19:04.807 --> 02:19:05.827 So it's good to have the choice, 02:19:06.368 --> 02:19:08.190 but I wish it was a bit better. 02:19:09.325 --> 02:19:11.987 I also think like the data connectivity 02:19:12.108 --> 02:19:12.528 issue, 02:19:12.587 --> 02:19:15.530 like disabling data sending is one issue 02:19:15.569 --> 02:19:16.450 when it comes to cars. 02:19:16.510 --> 02:19:18.171 I think someone, I can't remember which, 02:19:18.570 --> 02:19:19.332 who said this, 02:19:19.371 --> 02:19:22.713 but cars are becoming like walking 02:19:23.834 --> 02:19:25.334 computers with hard drives, right? 02:19:25.354 --> 02:19:27.195 Like there's a lot of data on the 02:19:27.236 --> 02:19:30.177 car that it collects when you drive 02:19:30.218 --> 02:19:30.917 around, like, you know, 02:19:30.977 --> 02:19:32.058 every place you've ever been, 02:19:32.699 --> 02:19:33.719 all the distances and, 02:19:34.248 --> 02:19:39.031 all that extra metadata that possibly if 02:19:39.072 --> 02:19:40.672 you sell the vehicle at any point or 02:19:40.691 --> 02:19:42.873 if it gets impounded, for example, 02:19:43.474 --> 02:19:47.236 that data is incriminating or could be 02:19:47.316 --> 02:19:47.976 used in that way. 02:19:48.415 --> 02:19:53.338 I think just because it's not sending the 02:19:53.359 --> 02:19:55.959 data out doesn't mean that maybe we 02:19:55.979 --> 02:19:57.781 shouldn't be collecting this data in the 02:19:57.800 --> 02:19:58.342 first place. 02:20:02.682 --> 02:20:02.861 Yeah, 02:20:03.041 --> 02:20:06.043 I think it also could help with offering 02:20:06.084 --> 02:20:08.364 this feature on more cars because I feel 02:20:08.385 --> 02:20:09.225 like not everyone... 02:20:09.465 --> 02:20:10.865 I've never heard of Rivian before. 02:20:11.105 --> 02:20:12.206 I don't even know what that is. 02:20:12.626 --> 02:20:12.887 Really? 02:20:12.906 --> 02:20:14.506 I don't think they sell... 02:20:14.527 --> 02:20:15.347 That is very surprising to me. 02:20:15.388 --> 02:20:22.550 Yeah, they don't sell in Australia. 02:20:23.470 --> 02:20:24.752 What are the most common cars you see 02:20:24.791 --> 02:20:25.311 in Australia? 02:20:25.332 --> 02:20:25.412 Yeah. 02:20:26.185 --> 02:20:32.513 uh probably like toyotas and hyundais and 02:20:36.197 --> 02:20:39.820 ford f like the big fords ford trucks 02:20:40.040 --> 02:20:41.343 i don't know what they're called yeah 02:20:41.382 --> 02:20:43.684 everyone loves a good pickup truck ranger 02:20:43.704 --> 02:20:46.529 for some reason um i guess it makes 02:20:46.568 --> 02:20:47.549 sense that it would mostly be 02:20:49.608 --> 02:20:54.034 Japanese Korean Vehicles it's hard to it's 02:20:54.055 --> 02:20:55.856 probably hard to get vehicles over to 02:20:55.938 --> 02:20:58.721 Australia shipping wise 02:21:00.130 --> 02:21:00.411 Yeah. 02:21:00.570 --> 02:21:03.191 A bunch of like European car manufacturers 02:21:03.451 --> 02:21:05.711 are kind of dropped out of Australia 02:21:05.752 --> 02:21:06.311 because of that. 02:21:06.611 --> 02:21:08.952 Um, cause it's not really like, 02:21:09.352 --> 02:21:10.893 there's not that many people here to buy 02:21:10.933 --> 02:21:11.933 cars as well. 02:21:11.952 --> 02:21:14.013 Like you're not going to sell many cars. 02:21:14.033 --> 02:21:14.634 There's only like, 02:21:14.674 --> 02:21:16.494 twenty seven million people here. 02:21:16.533 --> 02:21:18.235 That's like, that's like the, 02:21:18.495 --> 02:21:20.315 that's like the size of a US state. 02:21:20.454 --> 02:21:21.674 Like that's like nobody. 02:21:21.834 --> 02:21:24.335 Uh, so it doesn't really make, 02:21:24.796 --> 02:21:25.995 it doesn't make that much sense. 02:21:26.095 --> 02:21:28.217 I think, uh, in a lot of cases, 02:21:28.957 --> 02:21:29.777 but, um, 02:21:31.778 --> 02:21:31.938 Yeah, 02:21:32.038 --> 02:21:35.941 someone said it went viral on Hacker News 02:21:36.802 --> 02:21:37.343 and Reddit. 02:21:37.382 --> 02:21:39.706 Seems like definitely something technical 02:21:39.745 --> 02:21:40.386 people want. 02:21:40.406 --> 02:21:41.227 I agree. 02:21:41.246 --> 02:21:42.327 Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. 02:21:42.368 --> 02:21:43.408 It's a great feature. 02:21:43.529 --> 02:21:46.691 More cars should have it. 02:21:46.711 --> 02:21:47.872 But I think, okay, 02:21:48.013 --> 02:21:52.458 I don't use an Android phone too often. 02:21:53.880 --> 02:21:54.701 or Graphene OS. 02:21:54.762 --> 02:21:55.702 So I'm curious, 02:21:56.864 --> 02:22:00.067 does Graphene OS support Android Auto? 02:22:00.108 --> 02:22:01.350 Because I know you can install all this 02:22:01.370 --> 02:22:02.370 sandbox Google Play stuff. 02:22:02.390 --> 02:22:03.432 I don't know if they have support for 02:22:03.471 --> 02:22:05.635 it. 02:22:05.655 --> 02:22:06.615 They do, yeah. 02:22:06.695 --> 02:22:07.056 It does. 02:22:07.277 --> 02:22:09.179 It basically works the same way as it 02:22:09.218 --> 02:22:11.021 does on Google Android. 02:22:11.421 --> 02:22:11.981 So, I mean... 02:22:13.933 --> 02:22:15.754 I really don't like Android Auto. 02:22:15.815 --> 02:22:17.555 I don't like a lot of things in 02:22:17.594 --> 02:22:19.216 the Android world because you are reliant 02:22:19.275 --> 02:22:20.015 on Play services. 02:22:20.095 --> 02:22:22.637 But I think a lot of people would 02:22:22.756 --> 02:22:26.417 prefer if their car functioned entirely 02:22:26.638 --> 02:22:30.459 off of their phone through Android Auto 02:22:30.498 --> 02:22:30.959 and CarPlay. 02:22:30.978 --> 02:22:32.179 I think that would be better than doing 02:22:32.238 --> 02:22:34.600 it through the car manufacturer system for 02:22:34.620 --> 02:22:35.100 most people. 02:22:35.500 --> 02:22:38.220 So I think it's a real shame that 02:22:38.240 --> 02:22:41.002 the only car company that is kind of 02:22:42.061 --> 02:22:43.825 doing something good in this space 02:22:43.864 --> 02:22:47.710 apparently is also not letting you do that 02:22:47.771 --> 02:22:51.515 because I feel like, I don't know, 02:22:51.777 --> 02:22:52.998 they're missing out quite a bit. 02:22:56.573 --> 02:22:57.953 Yeah, it definitely seems, though, 02:22:57.994 --> 02:23:00.694 like I feel like electric car brands are 02:23:00.715 --> 02:23:01.495 probably, you know, 02:23:01.755 --> 02:23:03.096 they're a lot more like I feel like 02:23:03.877 --> 02:23:05.677 if you remember back like ten years ago, 02:23:06.158 --> 02:23:07.700 I feel like cars were like stuck in 02:23:07.719 --> 02:23:08.940 this weird phase where they were like 02:23:08.979 --> 02:23:11.301 still using like capacitive touchscreens 02:23:11.361 --> 02:23:14.042 and like really crappy interfaces and 02:23:14.083 --> 02:23:14.343 stuff. 02:23:14.404 --> 02:23:15.603 And now we've gotten to a point where 02:23:15.644 --> 02:23:17.284 these EV companies who are like they're 02:23:17.305 --> 02:23:18.585 not just a car company. 02:23:18.626 --> 02:23:20.227 They're like a software company as well. 02:23:20.287 --> 02:23:21.948 Like they're building all this stuff. 02:23:22.407 --> 02:23:24.588 this other stuff so there's really no 02:23:24.629 --> 02:23:27.870 excuse i think to offer i mean in 02:23:27.911 --> 02:23:29.971 tesla's case it seems to be the only 02:23:29.992 --> 02:23:33.713 thing they know how to build well so 02:23:34.574 --> 02:23:38.835 uh yeah this is why i did not 02:23:38.876 --> 02:23:46.100 buy it um unfortunately i still have to 02:23:46.139 --> 02:23:50.121 figure out how to make my current car 02:23:50.851 --> 02:23:53.334 i got recently more privacy respecting but 02:23:53.995 --> 02:23:57.541 i don't drive too often so it doesn't 02:23:57.561 --> 02:23:59.465 come up a lot i keep i keep 02:23:59.485 --> 02:24:02.549 putting it off um but yeah sometimes there 02:24:02.569 --> 02:24:03.451 are ways to like 02:24:04.736 --> 02:24:06.957 remove the SIM card or disable that sort 02:24:06.996 --> 02:24:08.157 of LTE connectivity, 02:24:08.198 --> 02:24:10.478 and that can help quite a bit. 02:24:12.159 --> 02:24:15.220 I know Henry from Tech Lore a while 02:24:15.240 --> 02:24:15.422 ago, 02:24:15.441 --> 02:24:16.822 I don't know what car he drives now, 02:24:16.861 --> 02:24:18.442 but he got some older, 02:24:19.143 --> 02:24:20.683 I want to say Nissan Leaf or something, 02:24:20.703 --> 02:24:21.245 but he talked, 02:24:21.545 --> 02:24:23.206 there's probably a video on his channel 02:24:23.546 --> 02:24:25.227 where he talked about removing the SIM 02:24:25.246 --> 02:24:27.227 card and then it was fine. 02:24:28.067 --> 02:24:32.190 And there are some cars you can't do 02:24:32.229 --> 02:24:32.709 that with. 02:24:33.210 --> 02:24:33.511 And 02:24:35.111 --> 02:24:39.095 I still have to look up research whether 02:24:39.255 --> 02:24:41.918 or how much is possible with my Polestar 02:24:41.978 --> 02:24:45.442 two, but I'm worried. 02:24:46.819 --> 02:24:48.662 There won't be a lot, unfortunately. 02:24:48.742 --> 02:24:50.404 It might be a trade-off that I'm making 02:24:50.824 --> 02:24:52.425 because I want an electric car, 02:24:52.945 --> 02:24:57.130 and all of the other electric cars are 02:24:57.171 --> 02:24:57.810 much worse. 02:24:58.211 --> 02:24:59.093 Except maybe Rivian, 02:24:59.112 --> 02:25:01.014 but I was never in a million years 02:25:01.075 --> 02:25:02.736 going to buy a Rivian because they only 02:25:02.775 --> 02:25:05.078 make a gigantic pickup truck and a 02:25:05.119 --> 02:25:06.280 gigantic SUV. 02:25:06.500 --> 02:25:07.800 So it was never... 02:25:09.595 --> 02:25:11.137 That was never going to happen. 02:25:11.897 --> 02:25:13.558 So unfortunately, 02:25:13.619 --> 02:25:17.582 I can't benefit from this feature. 02:25:17.961 --> 02:25:19.923 But yeah. 02:25:19.942 --> 02:25:21.905 Yeah, I don't think the advice... 02:25:22.665 --> 02:25:24.527 It's really irritating that the advice... 02:25:24.627 --> 02:25:26.448 I feel like the advice now is buy 02:25:26.548 --> 02:25:27.588 a ten-year-old car. 02:25:27.808 --> 02:25:29.309 That is really bad advice. 02:25:31.011 --> 02:25:32.191 Don't buy a ten-year-old car. 02:25:32.231 --> 02:25:33.833 That's just going to have so many issues 02:25:33.893 --> 02:25:35.054 and it's going to be a pain. 02:25:35.654 --> 02:25:36.174 Well, you know what? 02:25:36.215 --> 02:25:36.495 People... 02:25:38.051 --> 02:25:40.875 do drive pretty old cars pretty commonly. 02:25:43.858 --> 02:25:46.500 But yeah, they can have problems too. 02:25:46.559 --> 02:25:49.141 I've got friends that have old cars and 02:25:49.202 --> 02:25:50.183 yeah, it's just, I don't know. 02:25:50.263 --> 02:25:52.445 I think it's, it's, it's always issues. 02:25:52.486 --> 02:25:53.406 Like it's always issues. 02:25:53.467 --> 02:25:54.186 Like, you know, 02:25:54.266 --> 02:25:55.507 once you reach a certain amount of 02:25:55.549 --> 02:25:55.968 mileage, 02:25:58.212 --> 02:26:02.315 I can't say I've ever had to pay 02:26:02.395 --> 02:26:05.915 too much to get my bicycle repaired. 02:26:08.595 --> 02:26:12.496 Biking is like the private solution. 02:26:12.537 --> 02:26:14.177 You got to start doing it. 02:26:16.959 --> 02:26:17.238 Yeah, 02:26:17.398 --> 02:26:20.520 I guess specifically if you buy an older 02:26:20.540 --> 02:26:22.840 car, it's got to be like a Honda, 02:26:24.281 --> 02:26:25.281 maybe a Toyota. 02:26:27.449 --> 02:26:30.329 the in my experience the Japanese are 02:26:30.370 --> 02:26:33.511 pretty good at making reliable cars um 02:26:35.012 --> 02:26:37.753 don't buy a Ford don't buy an American 02:26:37.813 --> 02:26:43.075 car wait what is that is that the 02:26:43.114 --> 02:26:45.316 consensus that the American cars aren't 02:26:45.376 --> 02:26:48.336 that reliable or well the main consensus 02:26:48.416 --> 02:26:52.158 is uh that Hondas are particularly good 02:26:52.318 --> 02:26:52.519 but 02:26:53.843 --> 02:26:56.245 I don't know how common this phrase is. 02:26:56.286 --> 02:26:59.728 Maybe this is only in my circles, 02:26:59.769 --> 02:27:00.610 in my family, 02:27:00.690 --> 02:27:03.072 but everyone says that Ford stands for fix 02:27:03.131 --> 02:27:04.093 or repair daily. 02:27:04.453 --> 02:27:07.457 So that's what I hear. 02:27:10.731 --> 02:27:13.393 All the other American car companies are, 02:27:13.693 --> 02:27:15.154 I don't even know how many cars they 02:27:15.174 --> 02:27:17.094 make anymore that aren't pickup trucks. 02:27:17.174 --> 02:27:18.515 So unless you want a pickup truck, 02:27:18.896 --> 02:27:22.817 it might not even be an option. 02:27:22.897 --> 02:27:25.279 Or you want like a Ford Mustang or 02:27:25.299 --> 02:27:26.840 something and a sports car or something. 02:27:29.002 --> 02:27:31.423 yeah that's probably not super practical 02:27:31.462 --> 02:27:35.463 though as a daily card i'd imagine um 02:27:35.484 --> 02:27:37.565 but yeah i feel like we've definitely been 02:27:38.184 --> 02:27:40.505 let's uh someone said uh check consumer 02:27:40.546 --> 02:27:42.486 reports yeah japanese cars are most 02:27:42.707 --> 02:27:47.308 reliable interesting okay um yeah i wasn't 02:27:47.328 --> 02:27:49.648 aware there was a trend oh no i 02:27:49.689 --> 02:27:52.489 definitely don't doubt it i mean i drove 02:27:52.851 --> 02:27:55.731 a honda civic for a very long time 02:27:55.912 --> 02:27:56.691 basically until 02:27:58.863 --> 02:28:03.926 recently last year and that had like over 02:28:04.006 --> 02:28:05.868 two hundred thirty thousand miles on it 02:28:06.529 --> 02:28:08.889 and now my sister drives it and she's 02:28:08.909 --> 02:28:10.711 still she's still driving I think she had 02:28:10.731 --> 02:28:13.513 to fix up like a handful of things 02:28:13.593 --> 02:28:19.638 but overall since then since replacing as 02:28:19.677 --> 02:28:21.039 far as I know only like one or 02:28:21.099 --> 02:28:25.402 two things it's been reliable ever since 02:28:25.582 --> 02:28:25.742 so 02:28:27.332 --> 02:28:30.215 They kind of just last forever. 02:28:30.315 --> 02:28:32.897 Unfortunately, with that Honda Civic, 02:28:35.540 --> 02:28:37.602 the car itself and the engine and 02:28:37.641 --> 02:28:39.022 everything are very reliable. 02:28:39.504 --> 02:28:41.726 All of the stuff that surrounds the engine 02:28:43.086 --> 02:28:44.549 tends to be pretty cheap and kind of 02:28:44.588 --> 02:28:46.990 plasticky and falling apart. 02:28:47.011 --> 02:28:49.013 So it's not like the highest quality car 02:28:49.032 --> 02:28:51.736 to drive, unfortunately, even though... 02:28:53.146 --> 02:28:56.528 Even though it will outlive everything. 02:28:58.088 --> 02:28:58.370 Yeah. 02:28:59.170 --> 02:29:01.611 But, you know, what can you do? 02:29:01.652 --> 02:29:02.872 You just gotta research cars if you're 02:29:02.893 --> 02:29:03.552 buying an old one. 02:29:03.872 --> 02:29:06.315 They're hugely hit or miss, for sure. 02:29:06.334 --> 02:29:09.076 Okay, yeah. 02:29:09.316 --> 02:29:09.516 I mean, 02:29:09.817 --> 02:29:10.958 at least you'll save a bit of money. 02:29:11.018 --> 02:29:12.218 I feel like cars now, like, 02:29:12.338 --> 02:29:15.421 the prices have definitely gone pretty 02:29:15.441 --> 02:29:15.762 bad. 02:29:16.141 --> 02:29:17.903 Well, even used cars. 02:29:17.962 --> 02:29:20.465 The used car market is insane, but... 02:29:21.966 --> 02:29:23.467 It's ridiculous, but it's, you know, 02:29:24.227 --> 02:29:25.426 so is the new car market. 02:29:25.447 --> 02:29:26.388 It's even more insane. 02:29:26.407 --> 02:29:27.927 So there's, there's no winning. 02:29:28.528 --> 02:29:30.029 You're winning a little bit by used. 02:29:30.088 --> 02:29:30.168 Yeah. 02:29:30.189 --> 02:29:31.809 Yeah. 02:29:32.090 --> 02:29:33.229 I think my, my brother, 02:29:33.309 --> 02:29:35.570 he bought a car like five years ago 02:29:35.691 --> 02:29:37.272 and now he checked the price on, 02:29:37.811 --> 02:29:39.492 on the car listings and it's worth even 02:29:39.551 --> 02:29:41.013 more now than when he bought it. 02:29:41.233 --> 02:29:42.474 Like, how does that even work? 02:29:42.754 --> 02:29:43.693 When, when did he buy it? 02:29:44.548 --> 02:29:47.110 probably like i guess ten years ago right 02:29:47.129 --> 02:29:50.032 now okay yeah that that makes sense i 02:29:50.073 --> 02:29:51.734 don't know if it's as i haven't looked 02:29:51.773 --> 02:29:53.896 at used car pricing in a while i 02:29:53.935 --> 02:29:56.779 know like during the pandemic it was 02:29:56.859 --> 02:29:59.161 absolutely insane and i don't know if it's 02:29:59.200 --> 02:30:01.563 come down a bit since then or if 02:30:01.643 --> 02:30:03.064 in fact it's continued to go up i 02:30:03.084 --> 02:30:06.666 have no idea um but yeah the used 02:30:06.686 --> 02:30:09.690 car market it's crazy it's crazy 02:30:13.272 --> 02:30:15.356 Yes, I guess, yeah, 02:30:15.397 --> 02:30:17.622 we should probably close out the episode 02:30:17.663 --> 02:30:17.862 here. 02:30:17.882 --> 02:30:20.147 We're closing in on the two hour and 02:30:20.188 --> 02:30:20.889 thirty mark. 02:30:20.909 --> 02:30:21.652 Oh boy. 02:30:23.265 --> 02:30:26.467 well yeah i haven't seen any more 02:30:26.506 --> 02:30:29.888 questions from anyone anyways um so yeah i 02:30:29.907 --> 02:30:31.788 think this seems like a good time to 02:30:31.927 --> 02:30:33.789 end i'll remind everyone that all the 02:30:33.828 --> 02:30:35.668 updates from this week in privacy we'll 02:30:35.689 --> 02:30:37.670 share them on the blog we do every 02:30:37.729 --> 02:30:39.670 week so you can sign up for the 02:30:39.709 --> 02:30:41.229 newsletter or you can subscribe with your 02:30:41.250 --> 02:30:43.550 favorite rss 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