{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "12.075", "endTime": "41.415", "body": "Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about Complex Trauma and Dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen. The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "41.495003", "endTime": "65.869995", "body": "It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship. Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "66.065", "endTime": "75.345", "body": "We're all different, and all of our stories matter. As always, take care of yourself during and after listening. We are so glad you're here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "83.4", "endTime": "116.100006", "body": "Okay. We talked about the seaweed before, but my therapist is continuing to share with me these metaphors. Like, I don't know. It works really well with me. I think from what I'm learning about good medicine with different tribal activities and with elders and with being so welcomed and embraced there." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "116.740005", "endTime": "236.83499", "body": "And with my therapist having a broader perspective than just Western medicine, I think, is helping me reengage in therapy in a new way that is more centering on myself and coming back to myself and reconnecting with the world around me somehow, I think differently than what I would be able to do if we were just doing only regular therapy. I mean, she does regular therapy. I don't even know how to explain it. But I've been so wounded in therapy and by therapists that it is hard sometimes to get back into it or to let my defenses down enough to engage. And at the same time, there's so much I understand that I think she has found this as a way to give good medicine in an indigenous way, but also to help me heal in ways that are not just what I know left brained or what I feel right brained when I know so much and have been drowning in my feelings, but in a way that is more embodied somehow, but not via a modality that has been colonized and sold back to us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "236.83499", "endTime": "291.425", "body": "Right? So this isn't just like, oh, this somatic technique or that, but still completely embodied of healing is happening because that integration, not of parts, but of thoughts and feelings and experience, and because so much of coercive control is about not believing myself and other people telling me what to think and other people telling me what to do, that this is helping me somehow, even in a very young way with very young parts, with memory time parts, notice the world around us in a way that's not just about grounded, like, how many yellows can I find in the room? But, like, what does the room feel like? What does it smell like? What do I notice?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "291.425", "endTime": "327.73502", "body": "What do I see? And really just in a sensory way. So as things come up, or as we talk about different healing medicines, we really sort of focus on plants or creatures or different things that then we use as stories. And all of that kind of symbol work or dream work or metaphor work or story work, I understand as, like, being trained by a union therapist. And so it's really a fascinating experience because it's unlike any therapy I've had before." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "328.055", "endTime": "357.51498", "body": "And also, I think at this point, that's what it's gonna take. So this week, what came up just naturally in our conversation were my kids asking about jellyfish. We live by the ocean. We can go to the ocean a lot. And, also, when we went, like, back home, if we had driven to the ocean, like, it would have taken all day plus some, and that's if we pushed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "357.51498", "endTime": "378.815", "body": "Right? Like, normally, we would have to travel all day or two days. And then well, when they were little and so they couldn't travel as far, we would drive, like, halfway and then camp overnight and then drive another day. And we could get to the Gulf Of Mexico. I'm gonna call it that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "379.615", "endTime": "408.035", "body": "And if we wanted to go to the Atlantic Ocean, that would be, like, days and days of travel. Like, we had too many kids to fly with. Right? So we would have had to drive for, like, a week with them. And those experiences have jellyfish differently than what they see here where we are in the Pacific Northwest." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "408.355", "endTime": "443.27002", "body": "And so talking about what what are the jellyfish locally, what is in that family, how does it show up differently, and and then that's sort of where it started. But, also, then it got into this funny thing because I was trying to say the word anemone, which was really hard for me. I had to practice. It was coming out all kinds of sideways. The fact that I just got it on the first try, I can't even tell you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "444.39", "endTime": "540.71497", "body": "But it's like this group of colorful flower like marine animals, sometimes sometimes natively called to what gets translated as wind flowers, but related to jellyfish. And what's really interesting are that they form these close partnerships with others, like with clownfish that live within their tentacles that are really actually can be venomous, but as a way of protecting themselves. So natively, they can call them even wind riders. So talking about the themes of, like, opening your windows and that rush of fresh air that comes through or when your curtains blow, that is what the word, the name of that flower like marine animal, the the name for it encapsulates all of that. So it helps us to remember the here and now and loosening the petals of our heart that we can collaborate with others, we can live safely with others, we can form close partnerships with others like they do with the clownfish where we still can honor, hold, honor the protectors that we have, the protections we have." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "540.955", "endTime": "583.95", "body": "And also, that doesn't mean they always need to be activated or used against those who are not harming us and are caring for us. Right? So with secure attachment, all we need are safe environments and safe people within those environments where we are being cared for and also not harmed. And that close partnership means we can also care for others and not harm them. So the stories or the medicine of this animal also shows us old stuff like determined places, wounds, or stuck places, or tired beliefs." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "584.11", "endTime": "629.985", "body": "It lifts the shutters or opens the shutters, dusting out our corridors for what is obstinate in us or what is suffering in us. So those places that are just those stuck raw wounds, this is what, like how would I say? This is what, like, carries the medicine to them. So I'm thinking about, like, when I make oils, my kids like peppermint oil. They've grown up with me associating peppermints or mints as part of safety or orienting to safety." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "630.45996", "endTime": "658.45", "body": "So they like the little rollers with peppermint. Right? So when I put in new peppermint oil to fill up their rollers, I don't just put in the peppermint oil. It needs a carrier oil with it. So some coconut oil or some avocado oil or something as as the carrier to deliver the peppermint oil without it being too strong, but still being able to get there safely." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "658.45", "endTime": "703.57495", "body": "It also helps it not be too much. Right? And so that it deli it safely delivers the message. Like, the way when when you cook outside, you can smell it through the windows, like the like the spring air. Or right now, the apple trees and the plumcot trees outside my window are are blooming." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "703.57495", "endTime": "728.265", "body": "Like, the fruit is almost ready to be picked, and I can smell it. Not because the scent is so strong, but because the breeze through the open windows are bringing me the smell. Does that make sense? So this the flow of the petals in the water, like, helps the movement that carries the medicine. So it becomes like a carrier." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "728.265", "endTime": "772.59", "body": "So, like, what do we need for carrying medicine, healing, goodness, whatever is the opposite of deprivation to those memory time parts of us, to those younger parts of us. And also knowing when it's not safe and being able to discern that more quickly. So closing at night, but reopening in the morning, that when we are not safe, when we are being harmed, when we are not being cared for, it makes sense that we close-up more. That's not being avoidant. That's protecting ourselves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "773.07", "endTime": "816.545", "body": "And also when we are being cared for and not being harmed, we can reopen ourselves again. So that's not about an attachment problem. Like, we can see the labels when Western colonized medicine is trying to identify the categories. But we can also understand in a more in a broader sense that that's just about protecting our resources, about sheltering ourselves for safety, and that it's about timing. So like in therapy, we talk all the time about pacing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "816.545", "endTime": "874.525", "body": "We need to do pacing. We don't wanna do too much of this or not enough of that or pacing, pacing, pacing. And also, there's really a timing that when we are safe and cared for and congruent to ourselves, focused on ourselves, centered on ourselves, and connected to community so we are safe enough and not being harmed, then we naturally know when and how to open up to the world or not. So, like, when I one of the things we've been talking about in therapy, which I will share another time, is I I noticed that I stopped bringing back original episodes when I got to the ones that I recorded in Idaho when the episodes first started coming down in the first place. And my therapist was like, that makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "876.445", "endTime": "922.485", "body": "That when you got to the point you started taking episodes down, that it would be hard to put them back up because something was going on then where you already felt unsafe, and that is why you were taking them down. So to put them back up feels like betraying yourself, but it's not yourself that you're betraying. It's the like, you don't wanna betray the information you received the first time. But the first time, I didn't know how to understand it or interpret it. But now that I am in a safe place and I have so much support and such healthy community, now it is okay to open back up." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "922.645", "endTime": "972.86", "body": "And I'm actually sharing more with the world, with more people, more consistently being able to show up in my own life because I am caring and not harming and being cared for and not harmed. So the implications of all that, we'll talk about another time. But she described this in therapy. She described it as like a diviner of the weather, like being able to take the temperature of the room, the weather of now time, to recognize when the influence is coming from not just passive influence from other folks inside, but passive influence from memory time. That, oh, this is just activating because it was hard back then." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "973.375", "endTime": "982.49506", "body": "Here's what was hard. Here's why it was hard. Here's what's different now. Here's what resources I have now. Here's what support I have now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "982.655", "endTime": "1033.635", "body": "Here is what makes now time different. And it is that discernment that makes now time safe enough because then I can intervene on my in my own behalf differently than I could in memory time. So being able to notice when rain is coming, being able to convey to myself that it is time to close the petals in anticipation or when it is okay to open in delight. This I love this description that it came up in therapy because it's really why we do the sunflowers, especially in the community. The whole sunflower thing came about because sunflowers turn toward each other for warmth and light on cloudy and rainy days." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1034.435", "endTime": "1076.49", "body": "But do you know what else? Sunflowers, when they are new, turn and follow the sun all day long. Right? But mature sunflowers, when they get older, they know the sun is coming up again, and they have fed enough and nourished enough, and in a way I would say, trust enough that the sun is coming back again. And so they develop a secure attachment with the sun so that they don't have to follow it across the sky and then be in crisis when it goes down in the evening." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1076.7301", "endTime": "1106.605", "body": "They know that it's coming back. And so they stay facing the sun in the mornings because they know that's where it's going to be. So they're not using all their energy or consuming as much fuel to try to follow the sun. They can just rest in the safety that the sun is coming back. So we learn to pay attention to and to respond." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1106.845", "endTime": "1184.08", "body": "We learn to pay attention with subtlety, focus, and devotion. And because we notice those subtle things, we don't have to be hypervigilant in the same way because we are already aware of what's going on instead of watching out for what might go wrong. And our focus is on the connection with others and our devotion to ourselves and each other in ways I I struggle with the devotion word because it sounds churchy, but in the context that they were sharing, it really means the same thing as congruent to our values, where the devotion is. If I know let me think of a really simple example. If I know I am happier and healthier, if I have a walk, if I am hydrated, and if I have enough protein often enough in my day, then my devotion to myself isn't about being narcissistic in any way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1184.08", "endTime": "1198.635", "body": "It's not about hedonism in any way. And, also, when we are tending to little ones internally or externally, they are a little hedonistic because they cannot survive without it. So it's not a character flaw. It's just a trait pattern. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1198.875", "endTime": "1224.815", "body": "But as adults, caring for ourselves, that devotion to caring for myself means that I'm intentional about going on those walks. I'm intentional about hydrating. I'm intentional about making sure that I get protein and have choices of protein. It does not mean rigid. It does not mean inflexible." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1224.895", "endTime": "1316.2451", "body": "Those things can look like different things on any given day, but it means that it is intentional and prioritized. So the things that are not congruent with those values, like delaying care so that I don't get to go on a walk or prioritizing everyone else's needs in other crises so that I don't stop to eat something or being conditioned to tune out the signals of my brain so and my body so that I don't notice when I'm thirsty and need to be hydrated. Like, those kinds of things are not congruent with my values. So loosening that strongly held pattern helps me build habits even in my body that live in preparation for, like, healing instead of being braced for the next disaster or the belief that the doom is inevitable. I don't have to live in a way that is waiting for the other shoe to drop when what I already know is that lots of shoes have dropped and I have survived it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1317.73", "endTime": "1369.585", "body": "I don't actually have to be afraid of the shoe dropping because I know where my own shoes are. Right? So it's it's attention to what matters rather than being so hyper focused on where danger might be or where danger has been. Because it may be true that some things are triggering or activating because in the past it happened or traumavursaries or particular days that are more difficult than others, but it's also true that I have already survived them. And it's also true that I'm not alone in that anymore." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1369.585", "endTime": "1459.3151", "body": "And it's also true that I'm an adult with adult resources even when I can acknowledge that those resources are impacted by things like systemic harm or oppression or marginalization or all these different things that absolutely are valid harms. And also figuring out who I am and being true to who I am keeps that true despite those things. So disasters will come, but if I hold a sense of awareness and preparedness not out of fear or living in hypervigilance, then I can already be myself despite my circumstances and already be connected to my community within my circumstances, as opposed to staying in such hypervigilance that I overburden the resources we need to survive. While at the same time, it's not about just the beauty of it or oversimplifying it or some kind of toxic positivity. The toxins are in the boundaries themselves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1459.76", "endTime": "1499.13", "body": "The potent poisons are calling to action for boundaries and help get needed attention. So the anemone and the clownfish are not friends or partners because they fit together perfectly. They have things. Each of them could destroy the other, but they don't. And because they are not being harmed and they each provide a particular kind of care for the other, then it is a secure attachment and a healthy partnership despite their differences." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1501.8949", "endTime": "1550.0399", "body": "This was so powerful to me, and there was so much to learn from Anemone. And I'm really excited because we're actually going to be taking the kids to the aquarium. We're gonna ride the train down to go to the aquarium and actually look at some anemone up close in ways that are safe without harming the anemone. But it has helped me even with slowing down my days because when I close my eyes and just see them sort of waving in the water, there's not a hurry about it. And they're so rooted and grounded." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1550.04", "endTime": "1609.99", "body": "It's not about a there's not a flight in that. There's something in that rhythm that is just steady that I can see the tentacles sort of waving back and forth in the water where there's a steadiness about it, and there's a slowing down about it. And it I can connect it even to, like, really slow bilateral simulation, whether that's the the paddles in EMDR or the light or the ball, like, the different ways to do EMDR. Right? But that slow, slow, steady in a very meditative way to help me slow down and calm down, not because the world is not a scary place, but because I know who I am in it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1611.945", "endTime": "1640.22", "body": "And I know who I am as a part of my community. And I know where I am and who I am and what I am. And so and there's just something so empowering about that. I don't even have more words. It's just been really, really good for me to reflect on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1660.9", "endTime": "1683.11", "body": "Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope." } ] }