You are listening to the USDN on the
DFPN.
Thanks for watching!
What is up everybody and welcome to the
United States Department of Nerds where we
are for the people, by the people,
and of the people.
And... Ooh, I scrolled down way too far.
Hang on.
Where am I at?
I'm found.
So he was rejected over two hundred times
by the mainstream comic industry.
So he built his on no crowdfunding,
no shortcuts, no A.I.
Seventeen volumes currently in print and
for sale.
Nearly thirteen thousand physical copies
sold a TV deal in motion.
And now a toy line headed to Wal-Mart
shelves.
This isn't a comeback story.
This is what happens when you never stop
building.
The Council of Nerds is now in session.
Zim,
welcome to the United States Department of
Nerds, my friend.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.
so this has been i think you hit
me up why early february or late january
i think so this has kind of been
sitting on the docket for a while now
and it's when i've been really really
excited to dig into because my guy you
have such a rich history of doing
everything your own way so how did you
get started in this business of comic
books
So I always enjoyed fantasy and fairy tale
stories and things that took you on
adventures beyond the scope of reality.
And I had been drawing for as long
as I could remember, even as a kid,
just making doodles and coming up with
stories for things.
And then I...
created one character that stuck with me.
And then I figured, well,
I'll keep building on that.
And I kept building and weeks turned into
months and months turned into years.
And then the first copy
I sold in front of a seven eleven
in nineteen ninety six and it was all
placed to sell something in front of a
seven eleven.
Yeah, I mean,
it just kind of it was just kind
of happened that way.
And and and back then, I mean,
you know, printing is so different today.
There are so many options that are
available to creators, to anyone, really.
But back then it was
It was difficult.
It was expensive.
Technology was not caught up to where we
are now in the present.
And so it was a lot of like
kind of finagling to try to get it
done.
And I just had to take paper and
print it in sets of four on large
laid out pieces.
uh, eleven by seventeen paper,
and then I had to fold it,
I had to staple it,
I had to trim it myself,
and they were trimmed so bad, it was,
and I still have two of the original
copies from back then, and, and so then,
I, it was just like, okay, um,
I just wanted to tell my story,
I just wanted to put it out there,
and, and hope, well,
maybe somebody would enjoy it,
someone would like it, and,
and I didn't know what was gonna happen,
and then, you know, here we are,
thirty-two years later, and, um,
You know,
things have kind of taken the shape where
they're at now.
So it's very well known that you were
rejected multiple times.
I'm talking like two hundred rejections.
What did those rejections actually teach
you about the business of comics?
Um, well, it taught me,
it taught me a couple things, uh,
definitely in endurance.
Uh, and I mean, you know, if,
if you really want something,
the hits are going to come.
Then no matter what it is,
they are going to come and the failure
will come with it.
And so you have to be able to
navigate that the right way so it doesn't
break your spirit.
And it was it was hard.
Like in the very beginning,
I remember the first like maybe ten
rejections I got.
it was soul crushing.
And I was just like,
I don't understand why can't I get this
chance?
And then I realized as time went on
and I kept submitting and I kept getting
rejected,
the industry has a very specific window
that they operate through this view of how
they see things.
And, um,
Some could see it as narrow-minded.
Others could see it as gatekeeping.
Some might say it's a mixture of all
of those types of things.
And so I knew from that that the
only way to succeed is...
You can't wait for someone to give you
a door.
You have to just make your own door.
And you can't just rely on a hope
that someone... Now, yes,
sometimes people do get a chance.
They're in the right place where they know
the right people.
And it opens up things for them.
But that wasn't my experience.
And so...
I took away from it that really to
do this and to endure,
you have to love what you do.
You have to be passionate about it.
It can't be about...
I want people to think I'm famous or
I want to do this or do that.
You got to just love the craft as
it is and you just stick with it.
And when the bumps come,
because they will,
you just roll with them and then you
just keep going.
So that's what I took away from it.
And then I just made my own path
to just do my own thing.
That's inspirational as hell right there.
Jeez.
And, dude, you've done it eloquently.
You're not complaining about it.
You're not doing anything like that.
You just picked it up, said okay,
and just pressed forward.
That's something that everybody should be
able to look at you and go,
I'm going to do it that way.
And it's tough.
I mean, it's, you know,
I speak with a lot of creators who
are new to comics who've maybe been in
it a couple years.
And, you know, and I always,
I always like to use the illustration of
the Cell Saga comic.
as a perspective to get balance on things,
in the sense,
when they went into the hyperbolic time
chamber, Vegeta and Trunks,
and Trunks talked about how he watched his
father train,
but Vegeta wouldn't let him train with
him.
And so...
He realized what Vegeta had done,
but Trunks thought, well,
I'm going to do that,
and I'm going to train,
and I'm going to get my power up.
So battle comes.
We know what happens.
You know,
Vegeta's ego kind of gets the better of
him.
trunks did surpass his father in a power
level but the problem was he didn't have
the experience to know how to balance that
out the right way and what happened his
power went all the way up and then
it burned out very quickly and and so
i use that analogy to say that's how
you you have to do things methodically
like vegeta you have to say okay
We can do this,
but if we do it turn and burn,
it will fail.
But if you take your time and you
do it the right way,
then you'll start to develop that ability
to balance what you need to keep the
long run in mind and not,
I instantly want success because anything
instant, it does not endure.
Anything that takes a long time to
cultivate,
it stays and it becomes something that is
kind of unshakable in a certain way.
So that's really how you have to approach
it.
Speaking of unshakable,
thirteen thousand physical copies,
zero crowdfunding,
rare in today's ecosystem of indie comics.
How did you build a direct audience like
that?
Um, so I think the
The thing is that whenever you're
presenting what you do to somebody,
you have to really know your story.
It has to be as lifelike to you
as reality is.
You need to be able to just say,
hey, well, this is that,
and these are these things,
and I can tell you about this place
and its history.
So you for yourself have to know it,
and you have to make it believable.
When it comes to selling,
So many, I know,
I get the use of why digital is
convenient.
I understand it.
It's free.
You don't have to worry about shipping
costs and printing costs and all things
that go into that.
However,
if you give away all the secrets for
free,
unless someone is really an ardent
supporter,
why would they come back and then buy
it to rediscover the secrets they've
already seen?
And so for me,
I find what you have to do is
you have to find a way to present
your series to someone
and get them emotionally invested,
get them hooked.
You give them just enough to pique their
curiosity.
And then once that happens,
then you can show them the rest of
the door to say, okay,
this is where this is going to take
you.
And so for me, I found that
selling is just another part of...
It's like another art.
You just have to find a way to
do it.
If you can't pitch what you do in
thirty seconds or less,
you need to go back to the drawing
board because nobody's going to sit at a
table and say, well,
give me five minutes and I can tell
you the story.
No.
you need to be able to say, hey,
this is about boom, boom, boom.
And if they're interested and it's got a
hook that they like, then there you go.
And that's what you do.
And then you just keep learning how to
pivot that for every audience,
how you sell to one comic shop and
how you sell to someone just walking
around at a comic convention might be two
different things.
So that's what you have to do.
And so over the years, it was like,
I realized that and it's not about me
at the end of the day.
Yeah, this is my series.
I created it.
I write it.
I draw it.
I publish it.
But it's because people believe in it that
turns into something else.
And then you share that experience with
them.
But you have to be able to get
people invested in what you're doing.
And then at a certain point,
it kind of sells itself.
It just kind of moves along.
And there are times where
The books are selling out faster than I
can reprint them and get them shipped out.
And so, you know,
it's something I'm incredibly grateful
for.
But I every day I just keep trying
to say,
what can I do today that will give
them more than what I did yesterday?
It's always about quality,
because if you don't hold yourself to a
standard,
Well,
people will get things that aren't the
best and you have to you have to
always give the best that you got.
So let me what's the what were the
biggest challenges of sustaining momentum
without Kickstarter or Indiegogo or
another crowdfunding platform like that?
I mean, part of it, I think,
is just my.
my refusal to to stop making it because
i because i love it but um i
think part of it too is you know
it's tough there and you go through
drought seasons where you sell really good
and then you know you go through eras
where you're like i sold
two books this week and then sometimes
it's like great i sold two hundred books
this week and so really you have to
it's like this is this is my full-time
job this is just what i do every
day i come in my office and i
draw and i letter and i work on
different aspects of of the current issues
that i'm at i pack orders and you
just have to every day say okay let
me
email new shops let me talk to new
customers when sometimes the delivery drop
comes i'm like hey
You into this?
You into anime?
You got people who like that?
And they're like, yeah,
I'll give them a preview edition for free.
So they take it.
They have a business card.
Then they come back and I get an
order from the website.
So you have to take advantage of every
opportunity and you have to know when to
push and when to pull.
See,
that goes back to the balancing thing.
And so I just keep...
I just keep telling the story and I'm
so grateful for the people who believe in
it.
You know,
that to me is the greatest reward of
this is knowing how it affects people.
And I've had people message me to let
me know it's made them cry.
It's made them reflect on how they
interact with people in their lives that
they care about.
So it's a lot of things that...
i never thought would happen but i just
kept saying well i just want to share
this story and keep putting it out there
for for people to hopefully enjoy dude i
i like it i i really do so
this i don't know if this is going
to be a controversial question or not but
it's one of those where you you've done
everything without crowdfunding so do you
believe indie creators have become too
dependent on crowdfunding platforms
Or do you wish more would utilize them?
I mean,
now it's part of the business model that
just exists for comics.
It just is there.
And I understand the nature of why people
use it.
I get it.
That's a completely reasonable thing.
But I also think if you only rely
on using that and you're only selling in
your own circles,
I hear a lot of creators say,
I have a hard time marketing.
I have a hard time selling.
I have a hard time.
But if you're using the platform,
you're used to just saying, OK,
here's the link.
Hey, guys, can you share it out?
Or hey, you want to support it?
that works for that part of the community
but a person outside of that they're not
going to want to know that i have
to go to two and three different links
or i have to go to this page
and sign up to that page and it
so it's important to learn how to be
versatile and not because now just imagine
imagine crowdfunding went away tomorrow
how many series would survive
if it disappeared tomorrow and see that is
so many amazing series disappear i think
i've interviewed maybe fifty different you
know indie creators and um like to see
some of those series that i've grown to
love just disappear overnight because of
that would honestly it would be
heartbreaking for me but i couldn't
imagine as a the creator of those how
they would feel about that
Right.
So see, that's that's where, again,
it's a it's a balance of of what
you have to do.
And so I get it.
I do.
I completely understand.
And it's funny because ironically,
in March,
I'm going to do my first ever crowdfund
with the company.
uh for a very small just it's a
small it's not the money thing it's i
thought well it let me try to share
it with more creators in that vein of
things because it's so much that
circulates through these groups that i
thought well this is how you can keep
introducing it to to new people so i
i mean you know this is it feels
weird it's kind of like a weird thing
for me to even
think that I'm going to have like a
small one that I'm going to try because
for so long, it's just like, well,
I just,
I just make it and I publish it
and I open pre-orders on my website and
then people order and I just sell it
at stores and I,
I get it into shops.
And, and so that,
that for me is different, but I, I,
I think it's a good tool.
but i think it's important to also learn
to thrive without that as your your main
source because if if you don't have that
and you don't know how to market you're
not going to grow by still saying hey
just hey go support that no one's going
to most people are going to say well
no i'm not going to do that you
have to give them a reason why
No,
and that's one of those reasons why I
do this show right here where I'm
staunchly...
I support indie creators because I do want
to give them another platform to market
themselves to other people because the
marketing part, in my opinion,
and what I've noticed in the year plus
that I've been doing indie creator content
is...
marketing is the hardest part.
Yes, Facebook groups are great.
Instagram is great,
but it's getting people to those sites to
see your stuff.
And even I, as a podcaster,
I have those same issues.
And I was just telling you before we
went live that I've literally spent
probably ninety percent of my day doing
exactly those things that I'm learning to
market myself better and to make my
content better for others and people seen
an example of that today with that quick
fifteen second video just reminding people
like hey
Zing is going to be here tonight.
Make sure you tune in.
Right, exactly.
No,
and you're approaching it the right way.
I mean, so real quick,
let's just look at the dynamics of the
way the system is set up.
Diamond left the comic industry in
shambles.
Why?
Because they used a model that really was
prehistoric and it really,
it functioned in a way that it shouldn't
have functioned for so long, but it did.
Now, yes,
there are detractors who will say that's
not true,
but the proof is evident because why?
Where is it?
Diamond has become like what Obi-Wan said
about the Jedi in episode four.
They're all but,
comic shops now are all but extinct.
because of that method that they hook
themselves to and and so really yes there
are always new books and and creators and
new things coming out so the marketing
part to say well how can i stand
out how how can i get my my
work seen and there's already so many very
unique things out there and that goes back
to the very simple basics of
You have to really know your story,
make something unique,
make something engaging.
When everybody else is following a popular
artistic trend, do the opposite.
Don't do the thing everybody else is
doing.
And I know there are people who will
say, oh, but if you do that,
you won't be seen and you won't get...
Sure,
it's easy to get seen in the mass
of crowds of things.
But then even in that,
you begin to dwindle out when people with
much more popular names jump on that same
bandwagon.
And now they have all the prime spots.
So...
to stand out, you have to really say,
okay,
what can I do that no one else
is doing that way?
And that's a part of the longevity that
has helped Symphonic Verses is it's not
like other series.
It's not like, I mean, like,
here's an example.
This is the,
this is the seventeenth issue.
Now, this is the Pythagorean Chromatica,
which it's called Seventeen Over Three,
and that is a reference,
it's a musical reference.
However, you don't see the characters,
you don't see action pages,
you don't see great splashes of color.
why because for me this is how i
this is how i tell my story this
is how i present it to people with
symbolism of things that are indicative to
the story itself because symphonic verses
really is uh it's like even though it's
a dark fantasy it's really like a melodic
opera uh that that is traffic and and
beautiful and um so that's one example
Now, this is the Horovacui edition.
Now, this is over two hundred pages.
It's hardcover.
It's the first eight volumes.
And again, you don't see the characters,
but you see themes that are written are
so important.
that have meaning to to me to the
story to the characters uh and now on
the back i've put some of the uh
endorsements i've got from msn and screen
rant and jim valentino santa monica studio
who produces god of war konami so you
put that real quick we put that into
perspective i'm a one-man show all the
rejections all the things yet
The actress from The Handmaid's Tale reads
my series.
She has bought every volume.
Santa Monica Studio,
God of War is one of the most
popular IPs in the world.
Sold hundreds of millions of copies to
gamers.
And Konami is Castlevania.
Castlevania, right.
So imagine people who do those things and
they're saying what you're doing is right.
what you're doing is correct and and so
again this comes back to it's not that
it's about me but it's about the work
itself that's see that's the dichotomy of
this situation and and so that's where
it's important for creators to say okay i
need to really make something unique i
need to really make it original i mean
i got put on screen rant screen rant
said this is the best indie comic you
haven't read and and i have i'm not
a legacy publisher attached to something
it's not like i have corporate warner
brothers money funding it no it's just me
but i have found that what i do
and how i present it and how i
tell my story that affects people greatly
and that's what continues to bring them
back
for more and more and and i'm just
thankful for that so i'm just saying all
of that those those really all those parts
they they connect and they work together
and and that's what creators should try to
focus on as best they could well said
so jen thank you for stopping by the
podcast it really means a lot to stop
by to support the usd and as well
as zing it means the world to us
so appreciate that don't forget to drop us
a a follow please
Because we do this every week,
multiple times a week.
And we do appreciate when people stop by
and show their love.
So let's talk about the Sephanic verses
now.
So that's the center of your universe is
Prince Adonis,
an omnia centuries-old figure forced to
choose between power and love.
And you said this has been the idea
that has been with you since you were...
a young younger man correct oh yeah i
mean as you can see i'm a much
older man now but um yeah i mean
and it's funny the story the story that
i started working on thirty two years ago
in the story of today they are the
same they it is the same awesome and
and so in the story uh prince adonis
now the world symphonic verses takes place
in is called levy samanos v and
That has a very particular meaning to the
series and how it affects what's going on.
And so, of course, it's not Earth.
It's its own universe.
And in the story,
Yes,
he's trying to find this iniquitous power,
but it really is about him making a
choice not between good and bad,
but between evil and a greater evil.
So really,
how can you do what's right when you
can only do what's wrong?
You can only make wrong choices.
And as the series goes on,
you will see that he actually lived a
very lonely, very solitary life.
His parents have died.
His wife has died.
he has his mentor who has trained him
for centuries countess concerto and even
though he is the crown prince of his
empire which is called the noctum imperium
uh he's not he's not ruling it as
its emperor there's a reason he he's not
sitting on the throne uh there's a reason
in the story for that uh so he
sets out he goes to this treaty signing
because their world has been at war for
eight hundred years,
and there's a powerful empire called the
Countethalian Dynasty, and Countethalia,
in their dialect,
it means the land of nobility,
and so he goes to this treaty signing
that takes place in a neutral kingdom,
which is known as the Glass Kingdom,
and he goes there,
and that's where he meets Princess
Sappharos,
and
They discover that they both share this
rare ability to behold celestial light.
And they're the only two beings on their
entire world who possess this power.
And that ties into the story.
It ties into all these things that are
going on.
And he discovers that there is a way
he could bring his wife back.
and both of us if we could not
fix the wrongs and save the people we
love right what what would you do to
fix it what would you do to save
the people you love and so that's really
where the story starts to take this very
interesting shape in the dialogue of about
choices about
things that that we do and is it
really justified or do do the ends justify
the means is it really this way and
that image that we were speaking about uh
before we came on oh absolutely the the
other various uh characters that people
meet throughout the series he's the again
see he's the only one looking backwards
see and that's indicative to what is
happening in in the story and his
inability to to let go of things and
and it has a lot of action the
characters have all these really
fantastical powers and things that they
can do and as it goes on
you see him falling further into darkness
you see him making worse choices than he
did before and the series is again it's
like a melodic opera so so much of
the series is built around musical
references um a lot of the book is
written in latin um and welsh and greek
uh i actually created languages for the
various races so they have their own
dialects
There's world maps,
there's the soundtrack.
And I mean, the soundtrack,
I had the soundtrack composed like decades
ago for the music.
So I wanted people to be able to
explore the aspects of that world and then
explore music that came with it.
And so now the soundtrack, I mean,
it's got twenty four songs and actually
the composer
A year and a half ago,
he wrote two more new songs for it.
So when you order it from the website,
you get the soundtrack as a digital
download.
All that comes with it.
So that's what the story is about.
It's about him and that choice between
these two evils.
And
where do we justify it and where does
the line draw where we say, hey,
that was too much or no,
I've got to take this even further now
to make this right.
But not everything is the way it appears
to be.
And so that's the very human element.
But it's set in that stunning fantasy
world that is very high Baroque.
But it's my own influence on that and
Asian culture and European design.
And it really is just kind of its
own thing.
So it's been like there's been comparisons
between Final Fantasy Castlevania to your
book.
Were those influences to you or did it
kind of like.
Provide anything for you or that's just
really awesome comparisons.
I so I love I love Castlevania.
I love Final Fantasy.
They're just there.
You know,
they're it's it's what I take away from
that is this.
There's a difference between someone
saying, well, it inspired me,
but then they just are copying what they
see or someone saying, oh,
that taught me something about how I need
to think outside the box and what can
I take away from that?
And so really the inspiration is
Yes,
you get inspired by things that you see,
but it's more of what can I what
can I learn from this that I can
then say, OK,
these are things I need to work on
to improve how I tell my story,
to improve how I I show these designs.
What can I do to keep making it
unique?
And so that's that's the takeaway from it
that way.
As far as,
and I don't like to compare things,
but sometimes people ask, like,
what does it feel like?
And I tell them, well,
if you took Hamlet and Final Fantasy and
Castlevania and you like the vein of those
things, the pronounced irony,
the dark fantasy,
the magnificent designs and stunning
creatures and cities and backdrops.
It is that,
but it's just its own thing.
Yeah.
If that makes sense that way.
Oh, a hundred percent.
And I'm telling you,
Adonis gives me strong Belmont vibes.
One bad decision after the other.
That's a Belmont for you.
That is a great compliment.
I would definitely take that.
Hey, please.
It's funny because in the series,
in a way,
he kind of puts on a...
a cool veneer about his his self it's
really to hide his his pain and and
agony i mean he's suffering with ptsd um
he's suffering with with depression and
one of the other elements about the series
it is written and it's endorsed by a
licensed professional psychologist who
specializes in those mental health
disorders because of
the things that he is struggling with.
And within each release,
there is a letter from the doctor,
and then there is information for the
National Crisis Line.
So it's meant to also help people who
are in these similar situations.
It's by no means at all a...
it is not a replacement for anything yeah
but it is something to help aid people
in realizing that they're not alone when
they're struggling through these types of
things because that is very much where he
is at he is in this bad place
and he's been in this bad place for
a long time and when you're trying to
to make sense of things and you're trying
to make it uh
in the modern time,
you need people to help you.
He doesn't have people helping him.
He has people encouraging his behavior
that is not helping anything in the long
run.
And so that is also part of the
problem for him.
So what makes Sephanic verses emotionally
different from traditional dark fantasies
that people may find themselves reading or
picking up?
So dark fantasy sometimes is categorized
by just that one tone.
It's like one note.
Yeah.
But symphonic verses is like a ghost note.
So in the musical sense,
that means indistinguishable beat that
comes along.
You can't really put it in a certain
perspective.
And so it's not just that it's this
element where there are these ferocious
types of beasts and these dark elements.
but sometimes darkness comes from the
things that seem most human even though
they're not relationships inner struggles
the the situations we find ourselves in
enemies that we didn't know we had enemies
that are that were once allies and so
the writing is done in a way where
It helps the reader to appreciate it's not
written like Batman or Superman.
It's not written the way you would write
Thor or Spider-Man.
It has a very different take,
and the lyrics are written in a way
as if they're almost being sung.
It's like the recitative that's used for
opera.
that same kind of act to it and
and so really what happens is that as
you read the words and you're looking at
each character i try to pour so much
of
the essence of all of the pain and
the the joy and the love and the
anger and the all the things that are
there so that it becomes beautiful it
becomes mellifluous but it becomes tragic
in that way um and and i think
that's what helps it to stand out is
I couldn't say I could write a Batman
story,
but I know how to write this story
because the way it sounds and the way
it looks match each other.
If that makes sense.
Oh, a hundred percent.
That a hundred percent makes sense to me.
So you've made it abundantly clear
and that you do not use any AI
generated art.
I know when people first put their eyes
on this,
that could be where the first place their
mind is going to go is that it
is AI generated.
However,
you have been making this book longer than
AI has been around.
Yeah.
How important is it for people to
understand that this is you?
One hundred percent.
I mean, that's very important.
And it it's offensive when someone assumes
that that that's what it is.
I mean, I I get offended by that,
not in the sense of.
Like, oh, you know.
I did this,
you shouldn't be watering it down.
No,
because it takes so much of my very
being to make this artwork.
Every design, every pattern, every color,
every ornate detail, I have to make.
I have to design.
And it's funny,
I could never get distribution.
And this ties to your question.
Diamond didn't want to distribute it.
I couldn't get other distribution.
So, of course,
Philbo Distribution came along.
uh,
Phil is such a great guy and he
really wants to help creators and help the
industry.
He, uh, him and Mar they're both,
she's wonderful.
They, they run it together.
Uh,
They didn't hesitate.
They didn't gatekeep me.
But he told me, he said, well,
we just want you to know we had
to run it through these AI things to
make sure.
I said, no, I understand.
You know, I get it.
You're not familiar with what I do,
so I understand.
And they ran it through, and he's like,
no, it's not AI.
He said, we checked, and it's not.
And I said, right,
it wouldn't be because I made it, but...
so you know he because he won't distribute
books that are made with ai and so
my distributor uh can vouch for it there
are um i've got so many things that
show where the and the book started
looking like this about thousand ten like
full color with the details but it just
it the style just kept evolving and and
you keep growing as an artist that's what
you do and that's why
You don't want to be stuck.
You want to evolve when the art evolves
and the way comics evolve.
Yeah, exactly.
And so for me, you know,
and I learned art from Korean, Indonesian,
and Chinese art experts.
And so anyone who is familiar with art
from those parts of the world,
it is not like Western art.
It is...
That and European art has always been
ahead of the curve from where America and
their standards with art are placed at.
And so that's what greatly influenced how
I do my, you know,
my comic is much closer to a Hong
Kong comic really than anything.
I thought you were going to be an
Asian man.
I'm going to be honest.
Yeah.
So I started doing my research on who
you were.
And then I was like,
that name don't match.
No.
So my grandmother is from Taiwan.
And so, you know, it's like,
I have cousins that if you see us,
we don't look like we should be related,
but we are, we just have different dads.
And, and so growing up,
long before, you know,
the anime boom and the Toonami and all
the, you know,
there was a time where you couldn't just
go into a comic shop and pick up
an anime and, you know, check it out.
There were some comic shops that didn't
carry it.
There were some video stores that didn't
used to have it.
And so I grew up in an environment
where I was used to seeing those things.
That was not new to me.
So when people would say, oh,
I saw this
this cartoon and I don't understand what
it is but it was so great and
I always think I like chuckle because I'm
just like oh yeah wait till you see
the stuff better than that like because
it's so many things that are there and
so for me that's been the important part
and that's also why a lot of the
writing on the covers that's why I use
the Chinese calligraphy because it's
important to
It's like you have to be able to
feel the intentions of the author.
That's the whole,
that really is a whole set of skills
and ideals within itself.
And so that's the motivation behind that.
That's part of it.
And that's, you know,
if people were wondering,
that is why I do it that way.
No,
that is really cool that it's not just
because it looks cool.
It's actually a familial bond for you.
And that's really awesome that you're able
to bring a part of yourself,
your family into what it is that you
are doing.
And that's awesome, dude.
And it makes so much more sense.
And because like, you know,
I don't know how other podcasters or
journalists or anybody else does things,
but when I get like,
I'm going to look you up.
I'm not just going to be like, Oh,
let me figure out who this person is.
I'm going to just be like, Oh yeah,
sure.
I'll put it down for this day.
Yeah.
Before I ever email you back,
I've already looked you up.
I've Googled you.
I've done all that.
Right.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to cut you off.
No.
And it was just, I was like, like,
cause I'm expecting like,
because my reach has gotten out there
further because I do have some Filipino
guests coming on here soon for a new
manga company starting up in the
Philippines,
which would be really cool to have them
on.
So my reach is getting further and further
and I love that.
But I'm going to be straight up honest.
I was expecting to have a Chinese man
sitting in front of me or a Vietnamese
man.
I get that.
So my shock when I look you up
and I'm like,
Did I misspell something and I'm like
retyping it?
I'm like, oh, no, it's him.
It's him.
He's a Jersey boy, so it's him.
It is.
It's me.
And, you know, and I mean, I've I've.
It's a lifelong thing of just,
you just have to be who you are.
And I mean, growing up,
kids were outside playing sports and all
that stuff.
I was drawing my own books.
I was, you know,
looking at things with Greek mythology and
history.
And that's stuff I've done all my life.
Like, I just...
People are, hey,
we're going to go play basketball.
And I'm like, no, it's cool.
But I mean, it's fine.
Hey, you like what you like.
That's perfect.
Fine.
But I just I always tell people that's
just not what I'm into.
And I just like to do this stuff.
And this is what I've done my whole
life.
Absolutely nothing wrong with it.
So in this era of rapid automation,
what does the word craft mean to you?
I think it's a skill.
It's something that you develop and it's
something you spend a long time trying to
hone and you never get it perfect,
but you keep reaching for excellence.
It's like a lifetime of perfection for a
lifetime of failure.
There is no perfect,
but you don't stop trying.
You just keep going and you hone that.
If you make that skill,
razor sharp day after day after day and
that again goes back to the longevity
because if you do again you do the
turn and burn sure it might float you
for a little bit but eventually you'll run
out of steam because you don't have the
endurance to to survive but slopes down
after you you come off the the top
part of success and um so it really
it's a skill it's just a
it's something you have to just keep
honing for life so are you ready though
because we're about to go into the next
segment indie to industry you're streaming
bound you're collaborating with disney
plus hulu
You're also entering retail through a toy
line in Walmart.
But are you ready to show them the
clip?
We only got the sample.
We got the sampler platter.
We can't give them the whole thing,
but I'm pretty sure they will all
appreciate this sample platter that you
gave us tonight.
I'd very much like for them to see
it and just know what you're seeing is
just a little taste of what the TV
show will offer.
All right.
Let's hit this button.
Let me do it with the volume.
I don't want to cheat people.
And that's just the sampler platter.
I don't know about the rest of the
people out there,
but when I see that hype,
like I'm ready to go.
I appreciate it.
I, you know, and I,
I was so fortunate to, um,
when I got,
when I got the TV deal, um,
got a i got a message from a
guy and he said um what is this
and it was a picture of honest that
i had drawn at the time and i
said oh it's this character from my my
series and he said i want you to
call this number at exactly three p.m on
monday and i didn't know what he was
i thought maybe he was like an art
dealer or something i didn't know he was
a publisher so i was like okay and
he emphasized again he said three p.m do
not be late and i thought okay and
So I'm checking because I'm like that area
code is not where I'm living.
So let me check it.
Monday rolls around.
I'm like timing it to make sure ringing
there at exactly because he was very,
you know,
very sturdiest on that point that you
cannot be late.
So I call, and he answers the phone.
And he said, good, you called on time.
He said, OK, I'm here.
The board of directors are here,
and the president of the film company is
here.
You have thirty seconds.
Pitch it to us.
And at first,
I'm thinking I'm being pranked.
I'm thinking it's a joke.
Like, OK, all right, who is with me?
But I do my little pitch.
I do the thirty second pitch.
And they're like, OK, hang on.
And it's inaudible.
I can hear them,
but I hear what they're what they're
saying.
And then the president of the film company
gets on the phone and he says,
you know what?
I like it.
So we're going to turn it into a
TV show.
We'll get you the contracts this week.
And I thought,
I remember I was holding the phone and
I thought, wait,
I can't get a publisher to publish it.
I can't even get them to give me
a chance.
And you're telling me that a movie studio
wants to turn it into a TV show
to which...
I get to be an executive producer.
I get to be one of the lead
writers.
I'm involved with the art direction of the
show.
And I thought,
this can't be happening this way.
But sure enough, there it was.
And so then that...
that that changed everything that opened
up so many doors to so many things
that now I found myself saying, whoa,
I didn't in a hundred years,
if someone said, hey,
this is going to happen,
I would have never believed it.
That is so amazing.
Thirty seconds to change your life.
Literally thirty seconds.
And I just they were just like, OK,
you know,
and so then that that that really
That, for me,
it helped me to appreciate that I have
to just keep learning and keep refining
what I'm doing.
And, you know, just that's what you do.
You keep your head down and you just
keep doing the work.
And not getting caught up in all,
you know, this and that.
No, just focus on your story,
focus on your craft,
and just stay at it.
things i i can firsthand i'm living proof
things can happen that you didn't think
would happen now it's different for
everybody however um you know that is
proof that anything is possible dude that
is absolutely outstanding and that's just
like the the ultimate like
put it right back at them.
You know what I'm saying?
See, you wouldn't shake my hand then,
but look at me now.
Not only are you literally just eat a
TV deal,
you're also designing and your action
figures will soon be in Walmart retail
stores.
I have seen the videos of the one
finished one
And these aren't just normal action
figures.
These are hefty boys,
like bigger than McFarlane's size.
And I think McFarlane's are seven,
seven point five or something like that.
Yeah, I do.
Lots McFarlane size figures.
Yeah, yeah.
I do want... And people ask,
why did I choose that scale?
I always wanted action figures that were
super detailed and unique and looked that
way.
But nowadays,
those things exist and it's easier to get
access to them.
But years ago, it wasn't like that.
It was different.
But yeah, so I actually have...
um of course the first figure is the
prince adonis now when uh i don't do
the three d sculpting um i i hire
a team of people who do that but
all the designs and the art are things
that i've made for the series and then
they take it and they build the three
d sculpt
And so before the first figure was done,
I said, well,
I just want to see how it will
look to see Adonis in person.
And this so is just part of his
body.
We didn't get to get all of it
done because at the time it wasn't
finished.
But this is this is the Prince Adonis
action figure, which is massive.
twelve by five by eight when it's when
it's all put together because it's one six
um it will have like twenty eight points
of articulation and there's like all this
stuff that you cannot see that it just
makes it look really fun but so that's
him um and we had to go back
and re making toys that's a whole
different art so i had to you know
they're like
you know i get it but because the
way the design it's so dramatic we have
to account for the mobility and how we
move it so we had to go back
and redesign articulation for him um so i
said okay while that's happening let's do
one of the villains which is the shadow
knight and we were able to fully finish
that one
so this this is the shadow knight wraith
viper um which is such a cool figure
oh thank you uh it's thirteen inches tall
because of the thunder auroras that are
that are at the top of his armor
and i mean you can see the the
detail is it's i mean
That's absolutely amazing.
All the pieces.
So in the story,
the Shadow Knights are this race of
warriors that they thought were extinct,
but they had been in secret building new
alliances with new powers and doing other
stuff like that.
So that's the Shadow Knight.
He has a cape.
He has different sets of hands that he
comes with and weapons.
So the box...
this is the box that the figure will
come in by itself wow that's that's
freaking awesome it doesn't come with just
the box by itself like this is just
the box for the figure but the figures
come with accessories and all that stuff
so this is the box that everything comes
in is this massive box
And so when people get their figures,
this is what you'll see.
That's the synopsis.
And on the back,
that shows you the Prince Adonis with
three of his celestial swords out of the
five that he comes with for the Ultimate
Edition.
So that lets you see how the rest
of his body looks.
And then, oh, this one has...
the QR codes to the screen grant in
the USA News and Yahoo.
And so people can look at the articles,
they can see the media coverage,
stuff like that.
And so it's a it's a lot.
There is a lot that is going into
to everything.
And
you know the the toys are we're still
in production and getting things moving
and i'm hoping by end of this year
into like early then they'll be available
at at uh and to to get from
walmart so it just you know it's made
so many moving parts so many logistical
pieces to everything uh
and and it's like you're having to relearn
how to walk yeah for everything for
everything it's just a totally different
thing but it will come with a t-shirt
and the weapons and power effects and it
also comes with this they get the horror
vacui edition so anyone who gets the toys
you get the first eight volumes as well
this is included with it
So as you can see, I mean,
that box,
that box is huge and it has to
be to hold everything that will be inside
there.
Are you using a microphone right now?
Yeah.
Because when you just hit it,
it gave us a lot of pop in.
Really?
Yeah, I don't know what it was there,
but... Oh, I'm sorry about that.
No, no, you're good.
I just wanted to let you know that
I don't know if you knew that or
not, that whenever you hit your mic,
it just does that popping noise.
Oh, anyone who has...
I don't know if it's a cord issue
or what it is,
but I just wanted you to know that.
I'm sorry about that.
No, no,
that is literally nothing to apologize
about.
I've had worse stuff happen before.
Yeah, sorry, my bad.
I will...
When I come again,
I'll make sure I have a different setup
for sure.
Oh, no, you were good, man.
I just wanted you to know that, hey,
later on.
Yeah, no,
I appreciate you letting me know.
Thank you.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So we've talked about...
You've grown past comics now.
You're moving into anime.
You're moving into action figures.
What was that moment where you realized
Siphonic Versus was going to scale beyond
comic books?
um it i i think it was once
i got the the tv deal that kind
of just i mean that that just kind
of put everything in a different
perspective completely it took it from
being um something completely
unassuming to then saying okay maybe all
those two hundred people who said no maybe
just didn't really know what they were
talking about and and maybe i am doing
something that that is worthwhile um
because you know i i mean i still
question myself with a lot of things uh
for those let me pinch myself to make
sure it's really happening
right like you want to make sure hey
is this really where it's at so i
that for me was the beginning of what
what made me realize okay there there is
something to this that could work uh
despite all the setbacks and um and that's
kind of where everything started to change
that that way so let me ask you
this there's been very few independent
creators out there
enter big box retail like you are about
to do and not just retail but also
you just need to deal with you know
for your anime there's been one other
that's i think todd mcfarland has been the
only other person who's really gone from
independent to mainstream to movies
animation and action figures but he bought
a whole toy company to make that happen
you did not do that
So how does that kind of like –
how does that make you feel knowing that
you're probably like one of two guys or
three guys who have done that?
Well, the toxic Avenger,
but that's beside the point.
I mean, it's – I feel like –
I feel like it's one of those things
that it just felt like a natural
progression for what I was hoping to do.
You know,
it's like I always dreamed of having my
own toys, my own toy line,
but I never... Again,
I never thought I would actually have it.
And I think it's very good company to
be in.
You know, I didn't buy...
couldn't buy a toy company,
but I need a division of my own
company that now makes the toys.
And it's not like, you know, yes,
ability to mass produce them.
But that's not the goal right now.
The goal is to say we're going to
make them and make them in quantities that
the company can handle right now.
And that is in itself.
Let me tell you,
the cost is extremely still
high.
It is steep.
Even with that, it's like, okay, well,
that's how I'm going to do it.
It's done more from a collectible
perspective.
It feels nice to know that I am
doing something that someone like Todd
McFarlane is also doing despite everything
that's happened.
I can't tell you how many times
I have, I mean,
I cannot tell you the amount of trouble
that I've had from people.
One magazine canceled my interview because
they said, well,
we couldn't verify your sales.
we checked your ISBN.
I said, yeah, but see,
you sell them in batches to comic shops
and it discounted.
See, that's what you're not understanding.
That's how you have to sell them in
batches.
It's a single ISBN.
Right,
you can't take that one and say you
couldn't find them.
And they were like, well, no,
there's too many holes in your story.
And I'm like, yet I'm on MSN.
I'm on Screen Rant.
I'm on USA News.
I'm on Yahoo.
Guess what?
They verify
everything you think yahoo or msn is just
going to be like oh sure throw it
up we're not going to check this i'll
put it here no one's going to investigate
they fact-check everything i have to
provide the the evidence hey yeah here is
a b and c about this and from
emails from this person and these people
are
And it's all out there.
Why?
Because it's all true.
So there, you know,
I've encountered people who I think really
at the end of the day,
they didn't want to see that I was
doing something that they weren't.
And they actually tried to sabotage me
with stuff.
But, you know,
those are things that it's like.
that's that's you i'm just going to keep
doing what i have to do and you
understand forward and and um and it's
worked out for you right i mean everything
years it's worked out so it's like well
you know i'm i'm still doing what i
have to do and and i'm i'm just
grateful and and but yeah i'm i'm very
grateful to be sitting in that company
with with um with people like that
Oh, a hundred percent.
So you now have distribution.
We were talking a little bit about it
before we went live with Filbo.
We might have also mentioned it earlier
when we were talking earlier in the
interview.
So how important was entering a direct
market for long-term sustainability with
Filbo as the distributor?
I mean,
it's very important because that opens up
so many other avenues that you wouldn't
have access to that way because despite
having the TV deals,
despite the endorsements from these huge
names in entertainment,
The mainstream top of the industry still
makes you fight for your spot at the
table.
They're not so quick to say,
we'll let you have a place now because
you've proven yourself.
I still have to fight and tend for
every opportunity that way within the
industry.
And so having a distributor who...
is grounded and wants to see creators grow
and see them benefit from their work.
That has been really great because now
it's introduced me to so many different
new comic shops that I hadn't spoke to
before.
And I mean,
I've sold books to people all over the
world.
But having a distributor makes it easier
for shops to be able to have your
library catalog and say, oh, hey, well,
I can go back and I can order
the first three books because they're out
and then I've got the new one.
And it's been very helpful.
That's really awesome.
Phil Boat has a Facebook group for those
interested.
Their own Instagram, of course.
Really cool.
I have a few friends that are a
part of that group and a part of
that family as well.
Nice.
Phil is such a nice guy.
He really is.
he really wants what is best for creators
he really does and that's that's what i
really respect and appreciate about him
he's not a grifter he's not a you
know there are plenty of those who are
in the industry there are plenty of people
who will take any angle they can play
and play it for their own means
Phil is the guy who literally is trying
to help make a difference for the mess
that Diamond helped leave for so many,
so many.
And I mean, the creators,
even big companies that may have been
affected,
they had so much corporate backing in the
coffers.
They weren't going to go under because of
that.
But think about smaller labels who are
owed checks,
owed money that they never are going to
get.
And it's like, well,
What do you do?
It wasn't that long ago.
Coffin Comets went purely self-publishing,
self-everything.
Right.
And then Zenscope,
they're kick-starting now to get their
books out.
Right.
See?
So the domino effect.
of that situation.
It's crazy to think about because you used
to be able to buy Zen scope and
coffin right off the shelf.
Yeah, yeah.
But the actions of, you know,
and it's funny, Diamond,
when I when I went when I submitted
to them,
they told me and people sometimes think
I'm joking and I send them the screen
capture of the email so they can see
for themselves.
Diamond said,
we're not going to pick up your book
because we can't compare it to anything on
the market.
so because you can't make me want to
carry it right you would think that's the
that's the point of creativity is we want
new we want exciting things but they
wouldn't take it because they said we
can't compare it to anything so we're not
going to pick it up and so they
didn't but in the long run yeah i
was disappointed by that but look how that
but now it's like
It's like Guy,
when he talked about Rock Lee and how
he has no Taijutsu and he has no
Ninjutsu, he has no Ginjutsu.
He said all he has is his Taijutsu.
That's it.
And he said, so...
what do you do you take that disadvantage
and you turn it into a blessing you
turn it into that superpower so it's kind
of like yeah uh a lot of things
didn't work the kind of way i would
have hoped or needed to but you just
pivot and then you discover another way to
get it done and that's no that's how
you do it
That's awesome.
So, three decades.
Three decades.
That is a long amount of time.
What has kept you going when things looked
like they were going to slow down or
just completely die out for you?
You need a support system.
There are some fans that...
we're oh thank you thank you dan i
appreciate that appreciate you stopping by
dan um there are some fans who have
been with me for so long that they're
not just a fan but they're like a
friend you know and i i communicate with
them you know as regularly as i can
and um to know that
They're always like whatever has happened
or gone on with these things not working
or deals falling apart, they're just like,
hey.
You know,
we believe in you and and we want
to see you succeed and we want to
see it keep going and to know that
there are people who are that invested
that they're like, hey,
Really, for all of us starting out,
thank you.
Oh, no,
I'm happy to share my experience and my
story and just encourage creators.
It doesn't matter whether you've been
doing it ten years, twenty years.
You just keep focusing on your craft.
You keep honing it.
And yeah, the hits are going to come,
but you just keep going forward.
And that's what you do.
So I appreciate your kind words very much.
Absolutely.
They're all well-deserved,
and you've earned every single bit of it.
Shout out to Donald.
He just got his book funded not that
long ago on Kickstarter.
It's called Powerscape.
Nice.
Congrats.
It's a book.
Great dude.
I won't hold anything over him because
he's a Jersey and living in Canada.
He's a great friend of the podcast and
a great dude.
That's really nice, man.
Congrats.
That's excellent.
But so this is going to be one
of those questions that I think every
creator that comes on here gets asked.
And what would you tell creators who are
currently sitting or who are currently
sitting at rejection number fifty or one
hundred?
Don't stop.
There is no... You don't stop.
If you love this,
if this is what you love,
this is your passion,
you're not going to let those numbers stop
you.
You will just say, okay,
I'll just keep going.
And you will find a way to do
it.
You will find a way to overcome that.
And you just have to keep going.
Because guess what?
People think...
when you reach certain levels like i've
had people say well it's easy for you
you've got tv deals and you're doing this
and you guess what now years later right
literally three decades of of life but now
you work even harder so don't have a
disillusionment about the man behind the
curtain that you can't think that way
you'll put yourself in a box and you'll
set yourself up
You have to just keep going forward,
no matter who doubts, who doesn't believe,
who... Don't worry about that.
I know that sounds easier said than done,
but every day, if you're a writer, write.
And people say, I have writer's block.
Okay, well then study literature.
actual literature not just reading comics
pick up literary works and study them
learn from them if you're an artist i'm
having artist block okay well you need to
train yourself to be able to draw
regardless of how you feel see it's a
skill yes it's a feeling but it's a
skill that we ask about the craft see
that's where that comes into play that's
what you have to be able to do
what i did there right see you got
it all to roll back on each other
man let me tell you
a perfect setup for this play and and
and now you know that's that's the in
tandem of of what just happened see and
that perfectly explains what creators have
to do so you have to make it
so that it is a natural reaction to
what is happening so you don't give up
I mean, you keep going.
You dig in and you refuse to quit
because that is what is going to give
you the ability to overcome the other
challenges that will present themselves
because they don't stop coming.
The hardships, the difficulties,
the things that you have to face, no.
The challenges just get stronger.
But as you keep going,
you're going to build that up and you're
just going to be able to endure the
things that come as they do.
And that's just what you have to do.
Dude, I love it.
And we're going to give Donald Kraut,
because he moved to Canada,
complaining he traded pizza for poutine.
He really is a great guy.
He could take a joke.
He's a friend of the podcast.
He will be on the podcast next month
again.
I'll give him a crap again next month
too.
We love you, bro.
I did mention I had to ask this
question and I told you before the show,
you can say you can laugh it off,
do what you want.
March eighteenth, twenty twenty six.
Yeah,
just just just keep waiting just a little
longer.
just a little longer.
It's like I think about that.
Thirty more days of teasing that you're
dropping us.
More days.
It's like in Labyrinth,
David Bowie's song where he says where
they're at that ball and
I'm just picturing that scene right now.
The name of that song has just left
my mind.
It's what happens when you're getting old.
But it's one of the lyrics in there.
He said, it's only forever.
It's not long at all.
So it just, yeah.
So you just keep waiting.
And then, you know,
then all this other stuff is going to
happen.
And it's exciting.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
and i i did for everybody out there
i did pre-gave him i did tell him
i had to ask the question and i
was hoping about an hour into this he
would have a change of heart and give
us some something i tried y'all i did
try you you can't fault me i tried
well trust me when when it when it
does become apparent i assure you
it like it's one of those moments where
um it's like in phantom menace and as
you realize you i like to describe
everything in life with movie quotes from
or quotes from books and movies and that's
how i just do everything but
When Sidious and Darth Maul are talking at
night and he's telling him, you know,
you have to go find them and follow
the ship.
And Darth Maul is like, oh, well,
at last we're going to reveal ourselves to
the Jedi.
At last we're going to have revenge.
It's that kind of thing where it's like
that's just where you're waiting.
You're waiting to be able to...
share it with people that way and so
yeah it's just kind of like that it's
it's it's exciting and i can't wait i
can't wait to to share what what is
developed and what is about to happen and
i'm super excited
No, I appreciate it.
And it's just been fun watching you kind
of like tease it for the last like,
you know, week or two.
It's just, yeah, I got a key.
You know,
it's going to be amazing and everybody's
going to be super excited,
not just for you,
but for it in general.
So it's just really awesome that,
you know,
we're all on the edge of our seats
and you know, nobody else knows.
And it's just everybody else just like,
what do they say about the monster truck
rally?
You can buy the whole seat,
but you'll only need the edge.
Right.
I like that.
That's very good.
I like that.
And I really appreciate it.
I really do.
You know, I appreciate that.
And I can't wait for...
can't wait for people to to know what's
going on and and um yeah i'm i'm
so excited and i'm so thankful and and
um that i mean anything it is it's
going to change everything everything is
going to change literally that's it's so
awesome to see good shit happen to good
people man it puts a smile on my
face i think i've smiled this entire show
it has been absolutely a blast
I've had a great time.
Yeah.
know i i tried something new with this
tonight's episode you you've seen my my
little pre-drop i did about a couple hours
before the show yeah experiment with
different things i tried a few different
things with this one and it's just me
digging into like how to do what i
do better and i think that's what you've
done and what i will continue to do
and that is evolve as a creator so
with that sting tell everybody where they
can find you at
okay um so you can go to
symphonicverses.com which is x i m p h
o n i c v e r s
u s dot com or you can put
symphonic verses into google it pops up
i'm on instagram i'm on facebook um you
can message any of the social media uh
You can send a message through the
website.
The store is there for anyone who wants
to order books.
So anywhere that there is a form of
social media,
you can contact me and I always will
make sure I get back to you.
It may be later that day or if
I'm really busy,
it might be the next day,
but I always get back to people.
Yeah, even if you misspell it, y'all,
it'll still take you there.
Trust me.
I misspelled it once or twice,
and it still took me to where I
needed to go.
It will just pop up.
Yeah, it really will.
But we're going to close it out.
Two hundred rejections.
Thirty two years, seventeen volumes,
more coming.
And I know he's working on like nineteen
and twenty as we speak right now.
Nearly thirteen thousand copies sold
without crowdfunded and now streaming
adaptions in development.
A toy line soon to be entering Walmart
twenty twenty seven.
Be on the lookout for that.
And this beautiful gothic world built
entirely outside the traditional world.
System.
Zing did not ask for permission.
He built persistence into legacy.
And tonight we saw what happens when a
creator refuses to disappear.
The Council of Nerds is now adjourned.
Zing,
thank you again for joining the Council
tonight, sharing your journey with us.
Oh, thank you so much.
I appreciate the time and everyone's
encouragement.
And I look forward to coming back on
the show and sharing more things at some
point.
And for everyone out there who's a
creator,
no matter what it is that you do,
believe in yourself and do not give up.
Don't, don't ever stop trying.
You fight for those dreams every single
day and,
and you just keep going forward because
that's how winning is done.
That's how you do it is you,
you don't give up.
So that's,
that's the parting advice I would share
with anybody.
Just keep going forward.
perfectly said.
And with that, ladies and gentlemen,
this has been the United States Department
of Nerd podcast where indie comics come to
life.
Y'all be safe out there.
Z.