Matt: Yay.
Uh, hi, Alison.
Alison: There it is.
Matt: Uh, Dale.
You're gonna find that, that most of this podcast, if you, you
know, if you have been listening, it is mostly just us giggling.
It's pretty much 80% giggling, but, uh, yeah.
Hi Alison.
Uh, I'm really, really excited about today because, uh, we have a very special guest.
Um, this has been already, this has been twice the amount of
guests that we had last year.
Is that right?
Alison: In episode four, like, we are making great time with this.
Matt: It's the best thing ever.
It's the best thing ever.
Alison: And not only do we have a, a very special guest who you're gonna
meet in a second, but it's, somebody that we didn't previously know.
We made a whole new friend, uh, who wanted to come, come talk to
us about the intersection of ADHD and tabletop role playing games.
So let us stop talking and let's let him start talking.
Please welcome to today's show, Dale Critchley of Publishing.
Dale,
Dale: everybody.
Alison: great to meet you.
Matt: Thanks for being here,
Dale: I'm Dale Critchley, uh, owner and Chief Tea Drinker of Wyrmworks Publishing.
And, um, we are dedicated to helping you make lives better
with tabletop role playing games.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: Love that.
When you say chief tea drinker, we talking like Caduceus Clay tea,
or what's, what's your favorite?
Dale: I start out my, my morning, uh, with a blend of, hazelnut chestnut
and, um, and chocolate that's called, Uh, "They Said It Was Nuts".
Matt: They said it was nuts!
Alison: So good.
Tea-rrific..
A really brew-ti-ful story.
Matt: Alison is the resident pun meister.
Alison: I could listen to you talk about tea for oolong time
Dale: That's really That's well done.
I, you know, in our house, that's me, but, um, I didn't get much
sleep last night, so, you know.
Matt: Gosh.
Yeah.
Okay.
I love it.
So would that make you the C Tea O and the CEO of Wyrmworks Publishing?
Alison: See get on this level, Mattie
Dale: I'm just gonna bag on me now.
Matt: No.
Um, it is, uh, you know, I have, been, uh, uh, just kind of
obsessed with Limitless Heroics.
Um, which for those of you don't know.
is, a book published by warm works publishing.
and is a, if not the comprehensive compendium of mechanics, monsters
spells all, all manner of things.
Uh, that allow you to play D&D 5e characters with disabilities.
Uh, and it is incredible, and I'm so sad that I have not, I did not know that
it existed before now because, in the more current three years that we've been
playing, we've already built characters as a group that, that would so have
benefited from the mechanics that you've put together in that amazing book.
Like it is, it's astounding how, how well thought out it is.
We have a character with DID that we play with, and the kind of conceptual
rules that you have put together just make so much more sense than
the ones that we kind of try to do.
Because it has this beautiful balance of something to play and honoring, but
respecting, uh, the disability and, and understanding it, you know you go online.
And it's like, oh, don't do it.
It's so disrespectful.
And so,
Dale: Mmm-hmm.
Matt: But I disagreed.
I think that if you do it and you really take it, seriously, I
learned a whole lot about something that I don't know as much about.
Right?
But you're, this book, so many more people need to know about this
thing, cuz it's really, really great.
Uh, everything that you're
Dale: I appreciate that.
I mean, you know, it, what, what really made the difference was, um, just the
number of people that we talked to.
When I first got started immediately, I, I started, you know, reaching
out to people and saying, um, look, I'm working on this thing.
I don't know what it's gonna turn into.
But, if you'll just talk to me about your experiences and let
me bounce some thoughts off of you, you know, back and forth.
Um, I'll give you a free copy.
I, yeah, I can't really promise anything more than that at this point cuz I had
no idea what it was gonna turn into.
Um, and, and just a whole bunch of people started saying, wow,
this is so needed there, you know?
And, uh, you know, thank you so much for doing this.
And and then we went from there.
Once I figured out that this was gonna be more than just, uh, some little
thing on DM's Guild and said, if we're gonna do this properly, we're
gonna need a Kickstarter just so we can have the funding to do it right.
And, um, started hiring editors and, and sensitivity consultants and.
And then once we had the manuscript done and the, the Kickstarter was done, we sent
it out to, we had 2300 backers and we sent out the manuscript and said, take a look
at this and if, if you are, represented in here, um, take a look at what we
have and tell us, um, are we accurately, uh, expressing, uh, your experience.
And we had, uh, 900 people downloaded it and looked at it.
We got 90 pages of feedback and went through and looked at every single
point and said, and, and you know.
And sometimes there was points where, because people's experiences
are so different, two different people have very different, you
know, thoughts on, on expressing it.
And, and so we say, okay, how do we encompass both of these experiences
into one, you know, game mechanic?
Matt: Right.
Dale: But we did it and, uh, but we had really great team and so
I'm, I'm really thankful for them.
I'm thankful for just all the, the people that, um, subscribe to
our emails and, and, give feedback and, you know, and, and respond.
And it's, it's really, it's a community.
And it's just, it, it's great to to connect with people.
And, I was, I was just talking to a reporter, this morning, about a
what will hopefully be a upcoming article on a pretty major website.
And he said, you know, can you, can you point me to more resources,
more people that are doing the kind of stuff that you're doing?
And I said, well, um, there, there are.
Uh, but it's, you know, there's, there's not a lot.
It's, it's strange because it's seen as this sort of niche, but we're talking
about representing 25% of the population.
Matt: Right.
Alison: Hmm.
Dale: Like that's not a niche.
you know, imagine if you had a game world with only white people
or, um, you know, or only men or, you know, or something like that.
Like that would be weird.
And so like, okay, a game world with only, you know, able-bodied,
neurotypical people, you know, like, hmm.
Matt: Right?
Alison: I, I'm kind of interested in zooming out for a quick
second and, and hearing a little bit about your origin story.
So how did you get into, uh, specifically D&D or tabletop role playing games in
general, which is probably, I'm guessing, what triggered this realization that
there was just not enough representation.
Uh, you know, within the modules.
Dale: So I've been playing D&D since I was 10, which would be 1982, and,
after I got married, um, like I just got busy with other stuff and couldn't
find a group that, you know, where it kind of fit into my schedule and stuff.
And, and I kind of drifted away for about 20 years.
And I mean, D&D was always part of who I was, even when I wasn't playing, you
know, it was just, it was something that I would talk about and, and stuff.
And, um, then in 2019, I was, uh, I was, uh, a pastor at a church.
And, we had a couple dozen, teens that, many of them were coming
from, uh, disadvantaged, situations.
And, um, and I was looking to just bring more adults into their lives.
And I thought, you know, kids just need mentors and, and adults that care about
them that aren't their parents and stuff.
And I thought, you know, how do we, what do we do to, kind of
bridge that, that gap and in a, in a very comfortable kind of way.
D&D!
Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's equalizer.
And, so I said, all right, let's do this.
And I, bought a bunch of books on D&D Beyond so that I could
share 'em, um, with everybody.
And, that was kind of my first introduction to Fifth Edition.
And, and I loved it.
Second edition was the last thing I played before that with a little
bit of, of 3.5 that I hated.
So, So then, um, yeah, we the first night you know, that we, we got
together, um, 18 people showed up, ranged in age from 15 to, um, retired.
So we, we kinda spread 'em out, two different tables and then
quickly went to three tables.
and just had a nice kind of age range and a range of different,
um, you know, like experience with the game and, and stuff like that.
And, two those groups are still going today, uh, even though
I'm not a pastor anymore.
But I saw the, the powerful impact that it had.
You know, I had, um, kids struggling with depression that, you know,
they, they go, oh man, I just like trying to get through the week.
And then I remembered, oh, it's D&D Monday.
All right, I can get through the week . And, uh, you know, just seeing
the, the relationships, I, wow, this is, this is really powerful.
And it was something that I always knew, but then, you know,
really seeing it in action.
I was working in a, a group home for a little while and, that's when I
started, to work on, um, Limitless Heroics, where at first I just thought,
you know, what, if, what if we just created some, some prosthesis, or, you
know, other like assistive devices.
Um, like I have a, a daughter with epilepsy.
And I said, okay, what if, if you had, a ring, uh, or some other magic
device where, got three charges and you can either use those charges to
stave off a seizure or to give you protection from lightning damage.
but like you have to choose, like, well, okay, I can use it to protect
me from lightning, but then I've got less to, you know, tell me with that,
which is, you know, when you talk about assistive, uh, devices, technology,
medication, all that kind of stuff.
It always has its, its trade offs.
And, um, and I really wanted to do something like that, that, kind of gave,
that, that understanding that there's no just sort of magic thing that makes things
go away or, or all better or whatever.
And so then, then I started looking around and I realized that.
Okay.
Well, what we're talking about though is, is creating assistive technology
for disabilities or other experiences that don't actually exist in game.
Like this is a solution to a non-existent problem.
Okay.
So first we need to figure out how to introduce those experiences into
the game, so that it works with that.
And then, I thought, you know, so often disabled and, and neurodiverse, um, people
are just not included, you know, period.
And I thought, okay, well if I do something like this, I don't
want anyone to feel excluded.
And in hindsight, this may be where the ADHD kicked in, there was just
like, well, let's do everything.
Matt: Let's do all the things.
Let's research everything.
Dale: And, um, and so I did and, and so . So I, I broke it down by
what we originally called symptoms.
And then, uh, after some feedback, we changed it to traits because
symptoms had a negative connotation.
Because I noticed as I started researching it that, you know, there's
so much overlap, any given diagnosis, um, may have multiple traits or
experiences associated with it where there's overlap with other experiences.
Which I mean honestly is why things are misdiagnosed, because like, well,
it could be this, could be that.
Alison: How do we get the medical community to look at and
frame comorbidities this way?
Because I'm already much more interested in having this conversation with this
framing than I am, you know, in any other way medically than I have been before.
Dale: Well, when we sent it out, you know, to the backers, one of the people
that got back to us said, the way that we had personality disorders broken down,
we had 'em according to their, the way that they're grouped and, and diagnosed.
And they said, you know, in the latest DSM there's an alternate way of, of doing it
where it's actually broken down into the specific, um, different traits instead
of trying to group them and, and even has the different levels, just like the
impact sense that, that you're using.
And, and I looked at, I went, oh wow.
This is perfect.
And so, I mean, it was like four pages that we had to
completely rewrite from scratch.
Um, but it was so much better.
And, um, so yeah, it like took a couple extra days just to do that,
but yeah, it was like, wow, why don't they do this with everything
Matt: It's so worth it though, because you really do a fantastic
job of that, of, I mean, you start off by saying, look, I am one person.
I am a white male.
I am 50.
I am this, I'm that.
Uh, I don't pretend to know everything and there's no way I could know everything.
I loved that, because this is also something that people are afraid of.
They're afraid to talk about it.
I mean, my wife, who's profoundly deaf, she's either in a world, in a
disability community where everyone is, is constantly aware, uh, which is amazing.
Or, she's in the opposite world where everyone is very much aware of her and
doesn't wanna say anything, doesn't wanna speak about it, doesn't wanna do anything.
She rarely gets to be in a sort of a middle ground where it's like, I, I don't
know anything, but I'm, I'm right there.
I'm man, woman person enough to admit that and to say it and look,
just, it's, don't be scared of it.
Just talk about it.
Just, just learn about it.
ask about it.
Alison: And Matt, even it, it makes me think about, you know, for, there
was a time when you didn't want to label your own ADHD as a disability.
But we've had many talks about that, that if we go by the actual
definition of a disability, various points of neuro diversion like
ADHD have absolutely fit the bill.
Um, and more so, you know, books like Limitless Heroics, you know, help a
very wide range of people, you know, see themselves, uh, in here, rather
than trying to define it as one specific thing, a disability is this single path.
which
Dale: I mean, and, you know, and that's the whole thing.
We're trying to, we're trying to just normalize it and, and I, I think a
lot of, of, game developers, right?
Or, uh, people just at, you know, uh, gaming groups and stuff like that,
like I said, are, they're afraid that they're gonna do it wrong.
So they don't do it.
Matt: mm-hmm.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Dale: The exclusion doesn't make it better.
Matt: That you, that's a better way of saying what I was trying to say.
Exactly.
Dale: Yeah, And when, when I, when word kind of started to get
out in the community, that I was working on this, I mean, there was
a lot of really negative reaction.
Um, just this past weekend I ran into, I got hammered on Reddit.
And, it was some, you know, very legitimate concerns about, okay, this
could be done really poorly and has been done really poorly in the past.
Like I knew, okay, I've gotta do this right.
I'm committed to doing this right.
That's why we have what, 5, 5, 6, um, sensitivity readers on Limitless Heroics.
Plus the whole team, uh, all of the, the writers, editors, artists,
um, all disabled or neurodiverse, mentally chronically ill.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
Dale: But yeah, I just, the more we can kind of bring this conversation and
bring this, you know, this awareness, out into the open, uh, the more people
go, okay, well, you know, maybe this is something that I can learn more about.
Yeah.
And don't beat yourself up about like that you didn't know
everything to start out with.
Um, I mean, man, there's been so many things in my life where, uh,
you know, I, I, I learned something and I go, oh, I should have known
this a long time ago, but I didn't.
And, and like, I feel bad about it.
And it's like, well, you don't know what you don't know.
And so you just, you can only do the best you can with what you have.
Alison: It's very human way of approaching something we talk about both on this
podcast and in our business of the blank page syndrome of I'm not going to take
any steps forward because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm anxious about it.
Versus take the steps forward, make it messy, make it ugly.
But you know, that's the only way that progress is ever gonna be made.
Uh, cuz you're not gonna
Matt: And then have your friends, yeah.
Have your friends double check you and, and talk about it.
And I mean, we did not start this podcast to, to necessarily, we didn't
know whether there'll be a community.
But the example of meeting you and, and being able to start, a Discord
server and stuff to, to have people say, oh yes, my, my daughter has
ADHD and I don't, and I don't get it.
And, and then for us to see this community grow and to see like how we
are just by talking about it, opening all kinds of doors, all kinds of things.
You know, I, I don't wanna dismiss the, the people on Reddit that are,
that are chewing you out, because I've been there too, and I know how that
feels and it feels really, really bad.
But you've got such a amazing attitude about it cuz it's, it takes a lot to
develop a thick skin and to be able to put yourself into those shoes and
say, okay, I don't necessarily agree.
I don't understand why they're so angry, but I can, I can hear them,
I can process what they're saying.
And like you say, either offer them a chance to help make
it better or say, okay, okay.
Don't worry.
I will still do my best to make it better.
And I mean, Dale, in this book and just everything about the
website, you can see that.
You can see that it just comes from such a, it's just such a great
place, uh, where your, your head is.
So kudos on every level for that.
Alison: Tell us a little bit about, because you have a new, uh, crowdfunding
campaign, which was actually why you'd initially reached out to us.
It went live a week ago.
You're already at 92% of goal as of last I checked.
Uh, tell us a little bit about, you know, how we've moved from Limitless
Heroics, uh, into this new campaign and, you know, kind of what your,
your hopes and dreams are there.
Dale: Yeah.
So, um, so it's called Inclusive Artwork.
And, um, the idea was that when, all right, so tabletop, gaming products
run on very shoestring budgets.
Um, you know, even, and, and some of the stuff came out, uh, during the
recent OGL fiasco that, um, that you see these like multi-million dollar
Kickstarters and stuff like that, and you go, wow, that's a lot of money.
But then once you see all of the expenses involved, depending on how
they manage their, funds and, and, and stuff like that, uh, you know, some
of those actually end up in the hole.
And one of the big expenses with any kind of, even, even a tiny little,
uh, thing you see on, on DM's Guild or something like that, um, art is expensive.
Um, and, you know, just even a tiny little art piece usually is gonna
cost you over a hundred dollars.
If you can find stock art, you can get a nice piece for maybe like
two to six bucks, you know, maybe a little bit more for some, like
a full page thing or something.
But, um, you know, that really makes a difference and, and allows you to,
to produce, uh, a nice quality product and still actually, you know, not end
up in the hole for all your effort.
And so I started looking around for disability, uh, representation
in sort of D&D pictures.
and I looked on Drive Thru RPG and there were a total of, it was one artist
created, uh, like, three, four pieces
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Dale: And.
That was it,
Matt: right?
Dale: And, um, and I looked around in other stock art places
and I couldn't find anything.
And I went, wow.
And, and so I thought, okay, well if, you know, if people want to include this
kind of, of representation, whether it's in a publication or just at their game
table, if you're a, a DM that wants to say, oh, here's what this NPC looks like.
And you want to have disabled NPCs, you know, you just, you can't find that art.
It just simply doesn't exist.
But I talked to some of our artists and I said, Hey, what would you think about
if we did a, a crowdfunded stock art, campaign just to get some disability
representative stock art available, and, um, and make it affordable.
I said, I want you to be compensated properly, which is
why I want to crowdfund this.
but you know, I wanna make sure that, that people can get this affordably,
uh, so that they can use it in their products, in their games, you
know, wherever they want to use it.
and said, let's, let's make a chart so that you can just
start kind of filling in.
We're not gonna hit every, you know, combination, but, um, but at least
to, so that we get a nice variety.
Um, let's, uh, we put a list together of, of other things like, um,
uh, assisted devices, uh, canes.
Uh, we have someone made some prosthetic wings, and then just a,
a handful of, uh, service animals and, and, and things like that.
So on, on Reddit, the thing that that got a lot of people really upset was that
I said, neurodiversity representation.
And they said, how do you represent neurodiversity and artwork?
Because it's not, uh, like something that's
Matt: An invisible, yeah, yeah.
Dale: Right?
And so like, how do you do that without resorting to tropes?
And so, I thought, okay, so if I'm, you know, I'm, I'm like a fighter
who's traveling from place to place.
And so you have these long sort of monotonous, just walking or
riding on some kind of mount.
And like how do you, how do you pass the day and, and I'm just imagining,
okay, so I've got my, my sword by my side and it's got either like some kind
of, um, you know, a little switch or a, you know, some kind of like fidgety
thing or even uh, like a texture of some kind, you know, something where I can
kind of slide and I'm like, that would be like, I would want something like that.
That would be awesome.
And, and so, so it's the sort of thing that where we could have a
sword, you know, that has something built into the handle for people that
would appreciate something like that.
It'd be subtle.
And yet if you have a character, because stock art isn't about like, here's
everything about this, but rather here's just a visual representation of one aspect
of this character, which presumably in the supplement where this appears, that
character would be more fleshed out.
But it's like, yeah, here's their sword, you know?
And, um, you know, so I, I presented that idea and like they got really
Alison: Dale, are you, are you, are
Dale: got mad
Alison: you telling me that like my obsession with various textures
and like constantly running my fingers over them is my ADHD.
That's my stemming?
Matt: Oh, you didn't know that?
Oh, no, we haven't.
We haven't had that episode yet.
Oh no.
Mine is hems.
Alison: I love it.
I love it when we learn new things.
Dale: It, it, I mean, it, it, it was a pretty recent thing,
you know, that I figured out.
especially when, um, when, when I was a pastor and like, I'm preaching, right?
And, and to connect with your, uh, with your audience.
A lot of times I would start out with, you know, like, have
you ever had this experience?
You ever do this or is that just me?
You know?
And, and, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, like, because
the implication is is like, yeah, yeah, we all experience that.
And then I found out that a lot of the times people were
like, nah, it's just you.
And I went,
Matt: No, I don't know what
Dale: oh,
Matt: about.
That's amazing.
Dale: Oh, you know, and, and now I, oh, that's adhd.
That's, uh, oh, that's some of the, you know, depression that I am dealing with,
or, you know, or something like that.
And,
Matt: You, you mentioned before, not beating yourself up because
that's so, so hard for us not to do.
And especially when we're not diagnosed and we don't like, there's some
joys in saying, oh wait, I'm unique.
And also there's some frustrations in saying, oh, right, it's so much harder
for me to do this than other people.
It seems like.
Dale: but I mean, man, it does help though because, I mean, there
are so many things where, um, like I'm just really bad at names.
Uh, just remembering names and, um, you know, when, when you're a pastor and.
There's, you've got like 300 people that all feel like if you don't know their
name after, you know, a, a few years that you just must not care about them.
And, um, and it's like, well, you know, you've been here for a few years.
You, you ought to, you know, have names down by now.
It's like, well, not everybody wears name tags all the time.
And, um, you know, and so there's plenty of people that I didn't learn their names
the first few weeks, and then after that they stopped introducing themselves.
And so, like, I'm not gonna ask 'em now.
And, um, but you know, once I, I found out, oh, like that's an ADHD thing.
Oh, so this isn't like some personal failing of mine.
It's just neurological.
It's just the way that my brain is wired and it's like, it's, it's physical,
you know,
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Matt: You know, I, I think, for the people that are giving you a hard time
on the internet I, I understand why they, how they could get upset, but I love
that you, I love your explanation of it.
And at the bottom line, it it doesn't matter.
You're, these people are making it for you.
Yeah.
Dale: My, my thick skin is all scar tissue.
So you, you get attacked enough that you just kind of, okay.
No, I actually, I ran across a great, um, quote.
From Victor Hugo that said something like, you have enemies.
Well, that just means you have accomplished something meaningful
or, uh, or innovative in your life, or something like that.
Um, and, and, and that's just what goes with it.
and, and then I found out that there's different versions
of that quote out there.
And, the one that's quoted most often is the version that was written by Ed
Greenwood in a Forgotten Realms book.
Um, yeah,
Matt: I love that.
Wow.
Well, we're gonna put all of the, all of the links of course, in the things, and,
and talk about this new crowdfunder.
How much more time does it have?
Dale: Till the middle of March,
Matt: Perfect.
Yay.
Alison: So people will have plenty of time to go visit the link that
will be in the show notes once we post this episode, uh, to support the
really cool work that Dale's doing.
I, I think the way we're gonna have to end this episode is the way that
we normally begin the episode, which is by rolling on our d100 table.
Matt: I love that.
Yeah.
Alison: Oops.
See, we were just, we were so excited that we forgot both our names
and our own mechanics at the top.
Dale: Seems somehow fitting.
All right.
Got my shiny math rocks right here.
Alison: Yeah.
Ooh,
Matt: 95.
And I heard some sort of tower too.
Alison: Super fun roll.
Uh, Dale, what is your favorite cartoon?
Matt: Hmm.
Dale: Favorite cartoon.
Oh, wow.
So many to draw from.
Well, it depends on, you know, like there's action ones and then
there's comedy and stuff like that.
All right.
Um, I will go with Pinky and the Brain.
Alison: Yes.
Dale: Yes.
Um, because I, you know, the, the whole concept of what are we gonna do
tonight, same thing we do every night.
Try and take over the world.
And, um, that's kind of my goal in life.
Of, not necessarily take over the world, but change the world.
Um, it's like, what are we gonna do tonight?
Same thing you do every night.
Try to change the world.
You know?
And, I've got a real long list of, of failures just like Brain, um, that
for a, a very long time, kind of felt like everything I touch, explodes.
But yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying.
Alison: This was so fun, Dale.
Thank you so much for offering yourself up because we loved it.
Matt: And, and for the cause itself and for what you're doing and trying to make
the world better, and, I mean, I don't wanna be too forward, but I feel like when
you wrote, I really, we really did find a kindred spirit in what you're trying
to do and you're doing it even you know, better and more publicly than we are.
But you're an inspiration to us and, uh, we wanna continue this, this
relationship as much as best we can.
Dale: Absolutely.
I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled.
And, uh, you know, , I, I found that even with my own show,
um, Gaining Advantage that, uh,
that I've, I've, I've gone back and, when I'm editing the, uh, the
transcript, I, I find, oh, wow.
I just really went off on a tangent there, didn't I?
And um, and, and I realized that you know, my ADHD comes out in, in, in that.
And, and so this, this whole idea that, neuro divergent people
are more comfortable around other neuro divergent people.
For example, on, um, Limitless Heroics where we, we had, those kind of, of
social traits like here's when, if you're around somebody else that,
that has the same thing, then any kind of modifiers in that disappear.
And, um, and,
and, And so,
Matt: Yeah.
Dale: Because it's just, it's, it's not that you're incapable of, of
communicating, you're just, you just do it in a different way.
And, and so, just being able to, to be, on, on a show like this where,
Matt: Everything that you say is gold.
Everything you say is
Dale: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, it's like I don't, it's like, oh, went off on a tangent.
Oh, this fully expected, like, that's part of the show, you know?
Um,
Alison: that.
Matt: We're on that tangent.
Oh, man.
I, I, I actually wrote down how much I love that mechanic and, and so I'm so glad
that you brought it up, the adjustable.
and it's so true.
It's so true.
Like to find your people and to, you know, be able to speak and say, Oh no.
I truly understand.
I am right there.
That's so cool.
Well, there's just so much we could keep chitter chattering about,
but I know we have to let you go.
thank you so much for being
Alison: Thank you Dale, and hopefully this is just the start of many conversations
Dale: Yeah,
Alison: all of these exciting initiatives.
Dale: Yeah.
Thanks so much.
It's so great to meet you guys in person and everything.
Matt: Same, same, same, same.
And we're gonna, we're gonna plug this in every, every small corner that we have.
And best of luck on all of that
and, and everything in the future.
Perfect.
Thank you so
much.
Talk to you
soon.
Alison: you, Dale.
All right.
Bye.
Matt: Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 and larger
Bivins Brothers Creative community.
If you're looking for more, we have a hoppin' Discord that
a couple of us affectionately call the Honeycomb Kill Room.
Look for the join link in the show notes.
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but also TV, comics, video games, movies, theater, our pets, and
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Come be nerds with us and all our friends.
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