WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.419 Matt: Yay. 00:00:00.599 --> 00:00:01.579 Uh, hi, Alison. 00:00:04.439 --> 00:00:05.279 Alison: There it is. 00:00:05.849 --> 00:00:06.299 Matt: Uh, Dale. 00:00:06.299 --> 00:00:08.999 You're gonna find that, that most of this podcast, if you, you 00:00:08.999 --> 00:00:11.999 know, if you have been listening, it is mostly just us giggling. 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:16.179 It's pretty much 80% giggling, but, uh, yeah. 00:00:16.589 --> 00:00:17.259 Hi Alison. 00:00:17.429 --> 00:00:23.099 Uh, I'm really, really excited about today because, uh, we have a very special guest. 00:00:23.639 --> 00:00:26.610 Um, this has been already, this has been twice the amount of 00:00:26.610 --> 00:00:27.810 guests that we had last year. 00:00:27.840 --> 00:00:28.290 Is that right? 00:00:29.115 --> 00:00:32.715 Alison: In episode four, like, we are making great time with this. 00:00:32.790 --> 00:00:33.990 Matt: It's the best thing ever. 00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:35.459 It's the best thing ever. 00:00:35.865 --> 00:00:39.225 Alison: And not only do we have a, a very special guest who you're gonna 00:00:39.225 --> 00:00:42.825 meet in a second, but it's, somebody that we didn't previously know. 00:00:42.830 --> 00:00:47.655 We made a whole new friend, uh, who wanted to come, come talk to 00:00:47.835 --> 00:00:52.665 us about the intersection of ADHD and tabletop role playing games. 00:00:52.935 --> 00:00:56.775 So let us stop talking and let's let him start talking. 00:00:56.775 --> 00:01:01.891 Please welcome to today's show, Dale Critchley of Publishing. 00:01:02.581 --> 00:01:02.941 Dale, 00:01:02.961 --> 00:01:03.231 Dale: everybody. 00:01:03.261 --> 00:01:03.911 Alison: great to meet you. 00:01:04.351 --> 00:01:05.561 Matt: Thanks for being here, 00:01:05.721 --> 00:01:10.721 Dale: I'm Dale Critchley, uh, owner and Chief Tea Drinker of Wyrmworks Publishing. 00:01:10.938 --> 00:01:15.138 And, um, we are dedicated to helping you make lives better 00:01:15.138 --> 00:01:16.308 with tabletop role playing games. 00:01:16.425 --> 00:01:16.914 Matt: Yeah. 00:01:16.995 --> 00:01:17.596 Alison: Love that. 00:01:17.596 --> 00:01:21.341 When you say chief tea drinker, we talking like Caduceus Clay tea, 00:01:21.341 --> 00:01:22.661 or what's, what's your favorite? 00:01:22.831 --> 00:01:28.561 Dale: I start out my, my morning, uh, with a blend of, hazelnut chestnut 00:01:28.891 --> 00:01:33.508 and, um, and chocolate that's called, Uh, "They Said It Was Nuts". 00:01:34.006 --> 00:01:34.891 Matt: They said it was nuts! 00:01:35.497 --> 00:01:36.127 Alison: So good. 00:01:36.362 --> 00:01:37.002 Tea-rrific.. 00:01:37.022 --> 00:01:38.752 A really brew-ti-ful story. 00:01:39.625 --> 00:01:41.987 Matt: Alison is the resident pun meister. 00:01:42.632 --> 00:01:45.572 Alison: I could listen to you talk about tea for oolong time 00:01:46.162 --> 00:01:49.817 Dale: That's really That's well done. 00:01:49.817 --> 00:01:55.427 I, you know, in our house, that's me, but, um, I didn't get much 00:01:55.427 --> 00:01:56.777 sleep last night, so, you know. 00:01:59.102 --> 00:01:59.642 Matt: Gosh. 00:01:59.732 --> 00:02:00.152 Yeah. 00:02:00.392 --> 00:02:00.752 Okay. 00:02:00.812 --> 00:02:01.322 I love it. 00:02:01.322 --> 00:02:01.832 I love it. 00:02:01.862 --> 00:02:07.439 So would that make you the C Tea O and the CEO of Wyrmworks Publishing? 00:02:07.549 --> 00:02:10.189 Alison: See get on this level, Mattie 00:02:10.694 --> 00:02:12.314 Dale: I'm just gonna bag on me now. 00:02:13.239 --> 00:02:13.589 Matt: No. 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:20.459 Um, it is, uh, you know, I have, been, uh, uh, just kind of 00:02:20.939 --> 00:02:24.689 obsessed with Limitless Heroics. 00:02:25.079 --> 00:02:27.539 Um, which for those of you don't know. 00:02:28.169 --> 00:02:30.659 is, a book published by warm works publishing. 00:02:30.696 --> 00:02:37.746 and is a, if not the comprehensive compendium of mechanics, monsters 00:02:37.806 --> 00:02:41.436 spells all, all manner of things. 00:02:41.946 --> 00:02:46.686 Uh, that allow you to play D&D 5e characters with disabilities. 00:02:46.836 --> 00:02:50.386 Uh, and it is incredible, and I'm so sad that I have not, I did not know that 00:02:50.386 --> 00:02:54.823 it existed before now because, in the more current three years that we've been 00:02:54.823 --> 00:03:00.893 playing, we've already built characters as a group that, that would so have 00:03:00.893 --> 00:03:05.483 benefited from the mechanics that you've put together in that amazing book. 00:03:05.543 --> 00:03:10.493 Like it is, it's astounding how, how well thought out it is. 00:03:10.493 --> 00:03:15.748 We have a character with DID that we play with, and the kind of conceptual 00:03:15.748 --> 00:03:19.648 rules that you have put together just make so much more sense than 00:03:19.648 --> 00:03:20.998 the ones that we kind of try to do. 00:03:21.178 --> 00:03:27.625 Because it has this beautiful balance of something to play and honoring, but 00:03:27.625 --> 00:03:32.998 respecting, uh, the disability and, and understanding it, you know you go online. 00:03:33.003 --> 00:03:34.223 And it's like, oh, don't do it. 00:03:34.223 --> 00:03:36.023 It's so disrespectful. 00:03:36.028 --> 00:03:36.483 And so, 00:03:36.483 --> 00:03:36.763 Dale: Mmm-hmm. 00:03:36.983 --> 00:03:38.859 Matt: But I disagreed. 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:43.489 I think that if you do it and you really take it, seriously, I 00:03:43.489 --> 00:03:46.756 learned a whole lot about something that I don't know as much about. 00:03:46.756 --> 00:03:47.086 Right? 00:03:47.232 --> 00:03:50.112 But you're, this book, so many more people need to know about this 00:03:50.112 --> 00:03:52.122 thing, cuz it's really, really great. 00:03:52.232 --> 00:03:52.982 Uh, everything that you're 00:03:52.982 --> 00:03:53.897 Dale: I appreciate that. 00:03:54.437 --> 00:03:59.147 I mean, you know, it, what, what really made the difference was, um, just the 00:03:59.147 --> 00:04:00.527 number of people that we talked to. 00:04:00.827 --> 00:04:04.757 When I first got started immediately, I, I started, you know, reaching 00:04:04.757 --> 00:04:08.177 out to people and saying, um, look, I'm working on this thing. 00:04:08.182 --> 00:04:09.947 I don't know what it's gonna turn into. 00:04:09.947 --> 00:04:13.557 But, if you'll just talk to me about your experiences and let 00:04:13.557 --> 00:04:16.497 me bounce some thoughts off of you, you know, back and forth. 00:04:16.797 --> 00:04:18.147 Um, I'll give you a free copy. 00:04:18.147 --> 00:04:21.207 I, yeah, I can't really promise anything more than that at this point cuz I had 00:04:21.207 --> 00:04:22.917 no idea what it was gonna turn into. 00:04:23.397 --> 00:04:27.777 Um, and, and just a whole bunch of people started saying, wow, 00:04:27.777 --> 00:04:30.207 this is so needed there, you know? 00:04:30.327 --> 00:04:33.957 And, uh, you know, thank you so much for doing this. 00:04:33.957 --> 00:04:36.497 And and then we went from there. 00:04:36.664 --> 00:04:40.324 Once I figured out that this was gonna be more than just, uh, some little 00:04:40.329 --> 00:04:43.804 thing on DM's Guild and said, if we're gonna do this properly, we're 00:04:43.804 --> 00:04:47.974 gonna need a Kickstarter just so we can have the funding to do it right. 00:04:48.124 --> 00:04:54.254 And, um, started hiring editors and, and sensitivity consultants and. 00:04:54.839 --> 00:05:00.599 And then once we had the manuscript done and the, the Kickstarter was done, we sent 00:05:00.599 --> 00:05:06.449 it out to, we had 2300 backers and we sent out the manuscript and said, take a look 00:05:06.454 --> 00:05:12.376 at this and if, if you are, represented in here, um, take a look at what we 00:05:12.381 --> 00:05:19.046 have and tell us, um, are we accurately, uh, expressing, uh, your experience. 00:05:19.202 --> 00:05:22.652 And we had, uh, 900 people downloaded it and looked at it. 00:05:22.682 --> 00:05:27.792 We got 90 pages of feedback and went through and looked at every single 00:05:27.792 --> 00:05:29.862 point and said, and, and you know. 00:05:29.862 --> 00:05:33.432 And sometimes there was points where, because people's experiences 00:05:33.732 --> 00:05:38.277 are so different, two different people have very different, you 00:05:38.277 --> 00:05:40.197 know, thoughts on, on expressing it. 00:05:40.197 --> 00:05:45.897 And, and so we say, okay, how do we encompass both of these experiences 00:05:45.897 --> 00:05:48.297 into one, you know, game mechanic? 00:05:48.597 --> 00:05:48.899 Matt: Right. 00:05:48.899 --> 00:05:53.219 Dale: But we did it and, uh, but we had really great team and so 00:05:53.219 --> 00:05:54.899 I'm, I'm really thankful for them. 00:05:55.229 --> 00:05:59.753 I'm thankful for just all the, the people that, um, subscribe to 00:05:59.758 --> 00:06:04.832 our emails and, and, give feedback and, you know, and, and respond. 00:06:04.832 --> 00:06:06.512 And it's, it's really, it's a community. 00:06:06.612 --> 00:06:09.777 And it's just, it, it's great to to connect with people. 00:06:09.777 --> 00:06:14.363 And, I was, I was just talking to a reporter, this morning, about a 00:06:14.483 --> 00:06:18.591 what will hopefully be a upcoming article on a pretty major website. 00:06:18.591 --> 00:06:21.623 And he said, you know, can you, can you point me to more resources, 00:06:21.623 --> 00:06:23.453 more people that are doing the kind of stuff that you're doing? 00:06:23.453 --> 00:06:27.293 And I said, well, um, there, there are. 00:06:27.323 --> 00:06:30.653 Uh, but it's, you know, there's, there's not a lot. 00:06:30.653 --> 00:06:35.803 It's, it's strange because it's seen as this sort of niche, but we're talking 00:06:35.893 --> 00:06:38.113 about representing 25% of the population. 00:06:38.518 --> 00:06:38.728 Matt: Right. 00:06:38.983 --> 00:06:39.403 Alison: Hmm. 00:06:39.598 --> 00:06:41.068 Dale: Like that's not a niche. 00:06:41.571 --> 00:06:44.429 you know, imagine if you had a game world with only white people 00:06:44.429 --> 00:06:48.389 or, um, you know, or only men or, you know, or something like that. 00:06:48.539 --> 00:06:50.099 Like that would be weird. 00:06:50.579 --> 00:06:55.349 And so like, okay, a game world with only, you know, able-bodied, 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:58.939 neurotypical people, you know, like, hmm. 00:06:59.644 --> 00:06:59.974 Matt: Right? 00:06:59.974 --> 00:07:01.834 Alison: I, I'm kind of interested in zooming out for a quick 00:07:01.834 --> 00:07:05.404 second and, and hearing a little bit about your origin story. 00:07:05.404 --> 00:07:11.254 So how did you get into, uh, specifically D&D or tabletop role playing games in 00:07:11.259 --> 00:07:15.214 general, which is probably, I'm guessing, what triggered this realization that 00:07:15.219 --> 00:07:17.074 there was just not enough representation. 00:07:17.434 --> 00:07:19.534 Uh, you know, within the modules. 00:07:19.899 --> 00:07:24.549 Dale: So I've been playing D&D since I was 10, which would be 1982, and, 00:07:24.549 --> 00:07:28.629 after I got married, um, like I just got busy with other stuff and couldn't 00:07:28.629 --> 00:07:32.319 find a group that, you know, where it kind of fit into my schedule and stuff. 00:07:32.324 --> 00:07:35.606 And, and I kind of drifted away for about 20 years. 00:07:36.407 --> 00:07:40.157 And I mean, D&D was always part of who I was, even when I wasn't playing, you 00:07:40.157 --> 00:07:43.727 know, it was just, it was something that I would talk about and, and stuff. 00:07:43.732 --> 00:07:49.192 And, um, then in 2019, I was, uh, I was, uh, a pastor at a church. 00:07:49.522 --> 00:07:54.723 And, we had a couple dozen, teens that, many of them were coming 00:07:54.723 --> 00:07:57.503 from, uh, disadvantaged, situations. 00:07:57.503 --> 00:08:01.823 And, um, and I was looking to just bring more adults into their lives. 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:06.359 And I thought, you know, kids just need mentors and, and adults that care about 00:08:06.359 --> 00:08:07.949 them that aren't their parents and stuff. 00:08:07.949 --> 00:08:10.743 And I thought, you know, how do we, what do we do to, kind of 00:08:10.743 --> 00:08:15.123 bridge that, that gap and in a, in a very comfortable kind of way. 00:08:15.153 --> 00:08:15.243 D&D! 00:08:15.666 --> 00:08:18.659 Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's equalizer. 00:08:18.659 --> 00:08:21.669 And, so I said, all right, let's do this. 00:08:21.669 --> 00:08:25.056 And I, bought a bunch of books on D&D Beyond so that I could 00:08:25.146 --> 00:08:27.156 share 'em, um, with everybody. 00:08:27.161 --> 00:08:30.426 And, that was kind of my first introduction to Fifth Edition. 00:08:30.426 --> 00:08:31.746 And, and I loved it. 00:08:31.961 --> 00:08:35.501 Second edition was the last thing I played before that with a little 00:08:35.501 --> 00:08:37.661 bit of, of 3.5 that I hated. 00:08:37.661 --> 00:08:43.169 So, So then, um, yeah, we the first night you know, that we, we got 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:48.716 together, um, 18 people showed up, ranged in age from 15 to, um, retired. 00:08:48.843 --> 00:08:52.680 So we, we kinda spread 'em out, two different tables and then 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:54.150 quickly went to three tables. 00:08:54.583 --> 00:08:58.603 and just had a nice kind of age range and a range of different, 00:08:58.933 --> 00:09:02.983 um, you know, like experience with the game and, and stuff like that. 00:09:02.983 --> 00:09:06.196 And, two those groups are still going today, uh, even though 00:09:06.196 --> 00:09:08.566 I'm not a pastor anymore. 00:09:08.571 --> 00:09:12.771 But I saw the, the powerful impact that it had. 00:09:12.771 --> 00:09:16.731 You know, I had, um, kids struggling with depression that, you know, 00:09:16.731 --> 00:09:20.841 they, they go, oh man, I just like trying to get through the week. 00:09:20.846 --> 00:09:22.911 And then I remembered, oh, it's D&D Monday. 00:09:23.271 --> 00:09:27.441 All right, I can get through the week . And, uh, you know, just seeing 00:09:27.441 --> 00:09:31.101 the, the relationships, I, wow, this is, this is really powerful. 00:09:31.101 --> 00:09:33.651 And it was something that I always knew, but then, you know, 00:09:33.651 --> 00:09:35.511 really seeing it in action. 00:09:37.166 --> 00:09:40.044 I was working in a, a group home for a little while and, that's when I 00:09:40.044 --> 00:09:44.867 started, to work on, um, Limitless Heroics, where at first I just thought, 00:09:45.167 --> 00:09:49.367 you know, what, if, what if we just created some, some prosthesis, or, you 00:09:49.367 --> 00:09:51.707 know, other like assistive devices. 00:09:51.707 --> 00:09:54.200 Um, like I have a, a daughter with epilepsy. 00:09:54.410 --> 00:09:59.336 And I said, okay, what if, if you had, a ring, uh, or some other magic 00:09:59.336 --> 00:10:03.447 device where, got three charges and you can either use those charges to 00:10:03.452 --> 00:10:08.337 stave off a seizure or to give you protection from lightning damage. 00:10:08.337 --> 00:10:13.187 but like you have to choose, like, well, okay, I can use it to protect 00:10:13.187 --> 00:10:16.997 me from lightning, but then I've got less to, you know, tell me with that, 00:10:16.997 --> 00:10:21.810 which is, you know, when you talk about assistive, uh, devices, technology, 00:10:21.870 --> 00:10:23.220 medication, all that kind of stuff. 00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:24.930 It always has its, its trade offs. 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:29.427 And, um, and I really wanted to do something like that, that, kind of gave, 00:10:29.427 --> 00:10:34.717 that, that understanding that there's no just sort of magic thing that makes things 00:10:34.900 --> 00:10:37.300 go away or, or all better or whatever. 00:10:37.504 --> 00:10:40.684 And so then, then I started looking around and I realized that. 00:10:41.179 --> 00:10:41.419 Okay. 00:10:41.419 --> 00:10:45.980 Well, what we're talking about though is, is creating assistive technology 00:10:46.040 --> 00:10:50.743 for disabilities or other experiences that don't actually exist in game. 00:10:51.673 --> 00:10:54.283 Like this is a solution to a non-existent problem. 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:54.860 Okay. 00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:58.377 So first we need to figure out how to introduce those experiences into 00:10:58.377 --> 00:11:00.040 the game, so that it works with that. 00:11:00.040 --> 00:11:07.874 And then, I thought, you know, so often disabled and, and neurodiverse, um, people 00:11:07.964 --> 00:11:10.034 are just not included, you know, period. 00:11:10.034 --> 00:11:14.114 And I thought, okay, well if I do something like this, I don't 00:11:14.114 --> 00:11:15.554 want anyone to feel excluded. 00:11:15.810 --> 00:11:20.010 And in hindsight, this may be where the ADHD kicked in, there was just 00:11:20.010 --> 00:11:21.770 like, well, let's do everything. 00:11:21.770 --> 00:11:23.090 Matt: Let's do all the things. 00:11:23.490 --> 00:11:25.004 Let's research everything. 00:11:25.523 --> 00:11:31.673 Dale: And, um, and so I did and, and so . So I, I broke it down by 00:11:31.673 --> 00:11:33.533 what we originally called symptoms. 00:11:33.533 --> 00:11:36.653 And then, uh, after some feedback, we changed it to traits because 00:11:36.653 --> 00:11:38.723 symptoms had a negative connotation. 00:11:39.263 --> 00:11:42.143 Because I noticed as I started researching it that, you know, there's 00:11:42.143 --> 00:11:47.723 so much overlap, any given diagnosis, um, may have multiple traits or 00:11:47.723 --> 00:11:52.043 experiences associated with it where there's overlap with other experiences. 00:11:52.129 --> 00:11:56.137 Which I mean honestly is why things are misdiagnosed, because like, well, 00:11:56.137 --> 00:11:57.067 it could be this, could be that. 00:11:57.277 --> 00:12:00.817 Alison: How do we get the medical community to look at and 00:12:00.817 --> 00:12:03.097 frame comorbidities this way? 00:12:03.427 --> 00:12:08.137 Because I'm already much more interested in having this conversation with this 00:12:08.137 --> 00:12:12.667 framing than I am, you know, in any other way medically than I have been before. 00:12:13.642 --> 00:12:17.012 Dale: Well, when we sent it out, you know, to the backers, one of the people 00:12:17.012 --> 00:12:22.468 that got back to us said, the way that we had personality disorders broken down, 00:12:22.468 --> 00:12:27.128 we had 'em according to their, the way that they're grouped and, and diagnosed. 00:12:27.148 --> 00:12:31.884 And they said, you know, in the latest DSM there's an alternate way of, of doing it 00:12:32.454 --> 00:12:39.474 where it's actually broken down into the specific, um, different traits instead 00:12:39.474 --> 00:12:43.674 of trying to group them and, and even has the different levels, just like the 00:12:43.674 --> 00:12:45.924 impact sense that, that you're using. 00:12:46.704 --> 00:12:48.144 And, and I looked at, I went, oh wow. 00:12:48.144 --> 00:12:48.954 This is perfect. 00:12:48.959 --> 00:12:52.194 And so, I mean, it was like four pages that we had to 00:12:52.194 --> 00:12:53.814 completely rewrite from scratch. 00:12:53.994 --> 00:12:55.194 Um, but it was so much better. 00:12:55.524 --> 00:13:00.519 And, um, so yeah, it like took a couple extra days just to do that, 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.389 but yeah, it was like, wow, why don't they do this with everything 00:13:03.833 --> 00:13:07.313 Matt: It's so worth it though, because you really do a fantastic 00:13:07.313 --> 00:13:13.343 job of that, of, I mean, you start off by saying, look, I am one person. 00:13:13.673 --> 00:13:15.593 I am a white male. 00:13:15.623 --> 00:13:16.673 I am 50. 00:13:16.673 --> 00:13:18.053 I am this, I'm that. 00:13:18.383 --> 00:13:22.463 Uh, I don't pretend to know everything and there's no way I could know everything. 00:13:22.966 --> 00:13:28.188 I loved that, because this is also something that people are afraid of. 00:13:28.248 --> 00:13:29.568 They're afraid to talk about it. 00:13:29.828 --> 00:13:34.676 I mean, my wife, who's profoundly deaf, she's either in a world, in a 00:13:34.676 --> 00:13:40.586 disability community where everyone is, is constantly aware, uh, which is amazing. 00:13:41.126 --> 00:13:46.803 Or, she's in the opposite world where everyone is very much aware of her and 00:13:46.808 --> 00:13:49.173 doesn't wanna say anything, doesn't wanna speak about it, doesn't wanna do anything. 00:13:49.446 --> 00:13:53.586 She rarely gets to be in a sort of a middle ground where it's like, I, I don't 00:13:53.586 --> 00:13:55.326 know anything, but I'm, I'm right there. 00:13:55.359 --> 00:13:59.979 I'm man, woman person enough to admit that and to say it and look, 00:13:59.979 --> 00:14:02.229 just, it's, don't be scared of it. 00:14:02.229 --> 00:14:03.099 Just talk about it. 00:14:03.099 --> 00:14:04.869 Just, just learn about it. 00:14:04.869 --> 00:14:05.739 ask about it. 00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:08.799 Alison: And Matt, even it, it makes me think about, you know, for, there 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:14.949 was a time when you didn't want to label your own ADHD as a disability. 00:14:15.889 --> 00:14:18.829 But we've had many talks about that, that if we go by the actual 00:14:18.829 --> 00:14:22.939 definition of a disability, various points of neuro diversion like 00:14:22.939 --> 00:14:25.279 ADHD have absolutely fit the bill. 00:14:25.669 --> 00:14:30.889 Um, and more so, you know, books like Limitless Heroics, you know, help a 00:14:30.894 --> 00:14:35.209 very wide range of people, you know, see themselves, uh, in here, rather 00:14:35.209 --> 00:14:39.889 than trying to define it as one specific thing, a disability is this single path. 00:14:39.979 --> 00:14:40.539 which 00:14:41.189 --> 00:14:42.539 Dale: I mean, and, you know, and that's the whole thing. 00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:46.839 We're trying to, we're trying to just normalize it and, and I, I think a 00:14:47.119 --> 00:14:49.389 lot of, of, game developers, right? 00:14:49.389 --> 00:14:53.469 Or, uh, people just at, you know, uh, gaming groups and stuff like that, 00:14:53.474 --> 00:14:55.959 like I said, are, they're afraid that they're gonna do it wrong. 00:14:55.959 --> 00:14:56.619 So they don't do it. 00:14:57.369 --> 00:14:57.370 Matt: mm-hmm. 00:14:57.454 --> 00:14:57.734 Alison: Mm-hmm. 00:14:57.789 --> 00:14:59.289 Dale: The exclusion doesn't make it better. 00:14:59.894 --> 00:15:02.054 Matt: That you, that's a better way of saying what I was trying to say. 00:15:02.054 --> 00:15:02.494 Exactly. 00:15:02.579 --> 00:15:06.688 Dale: Yeah, And when, when I, when word kind of started to get 00:15:06.688 --> 00:15:11.278 out in the community, that I was working on this, I mean, there was 00:15:11.278 --> 00:15:13.798 a lot of really negative reaction. 00:15:14.158 --> 00:15:19.018 Um, just this past weekend I ran into, I got hammered on Reddit. 00:15:19.018 --> 00:15:23.558 And, it was some, you know, very legitimate concerns about, okay, this 00:15:23.558 --> 00:15:27.428 could be done really poorly and has been done really poorly in the past. 00:15:28.208 --> 00:15:30.758 Like I knew, okay, I've gotta do this right. 00:15:30.758 --> 00:15:33.248 I'm committed to doing this right. 00:15:33.458 --> 00:15:40.448 That's why we have what, 5, 5, 6, um, sensitivity readers on Limitless Heroics. 00:15:40.594 --> 00:15:45.604 Plus the whole team, uh, all of the, the writers, editors, artists, 00:15:45.844 --> 00:15:50.824 um, all disabled or neurodiverse, mentally chronically ill. 00:15:51.244 --> 00:15:51.604 Matt: Yeah. 00:15:52.294 --> 00:15:52.684 Yeah. 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:57.369 Dale: But yeah, I just, the more we can kind of bring this conversation and 00:15:57.369 --> 00:16:03.719 bring this, you know, this awareness, out into the open, uh, the more people 00:16:03.724 --> 00:16:08.009 go, okay, well, you know, maybe this is something that I can learn more about. 00:16:08.394 --> 00:16:08.604 Yeah. 00:16:08.604 --> 00:16:12.624 And don't beat yourself up about like that you didn't know 00:16:12.624 --> 00:16:13.764 everything to start out with. 00:16:14.094 --> 00:16:17.814 Um, I mean, man, there's been so many things in my life where, uh, 00:16:17.814 --> 00:16:21.954 you know, I, I, I learned something and I go, oh, I should have known 00:16:21.954 --> 00:16:24.324 this a long time ago, but I didn't. 00:16:24.324 --> 00:16:26.214 And, and like, I feel bad about it. 00:16:26.214 --> 00:16:28.224 And it's like, well, you don't know what you don't know. 00:16:28.584 --> 00:16:32.484 And so you just, you can only do the best you can with what you have. 00:16:33.014 --> 00:16:36.969 Alison: It's very human way of approaching something we talk about both on this 00:16:36.969 --> 00:16:41.649 podcast and in our business of the blank page syndrome of I'm not going to take 00:16:41.654 --> 00:16:46.059 any steps forward because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm anxious about it. 00:16:46.629 --> 00:16:50.169 Versus take the steps forward, make it messy, make it ugly. 00:16:50.169 --> 00:16:53.109 But you know, that's the only way that progress is ever gonna be made. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:54.429 Uh, cuz you're not gonna 00:16:54.474 --> 00:16:56.064 Matt: And then have your friends, yeah. 00:16:56.069 --> 00:16:59.484 Have your friends double check you and, and talk about it. 00:16:59.489 --> 00:17:04.314 And I mean, we did not start this podcast to, to necessarily, we didn't 00:17:04.314 --> 00:17:05.784 know whether there'll be a community. 00:17:06.054 --> 00:17:10.751 But the example of meeting you and, and being able to start, a Discord 00:17:10.751 --> 00:17:16.181 server and stuff to, to have people say, oh yes, my, my daughter has 00:17:16.211 --> 00:17:18.941 ADHD and I don't, and I don't get it. 00:17:18.941 --> 00:17:23.331 And, and then for us to see this community grow and to see like how we 00:17:23.331 --> 00:17:29.161 are just by talking about it, opening all kinds of doors, all kinds of things. 00:17:29.281 --> 00:17:32.191 You know, I, I don't wanna dismiss the, the people on Reddit that are, 00:17:32.251 --> 00:17:35.671 that are chewing you out, because I've been there too, and I know how that 00:17:35.671 --> 00:17:37.921 feels and it feels really, really bad. 00:17:38.161 --> 00:17:44.251 But you've got such a amazing attitude about it cuz it's, it takes a lot to 00:17:44.251 --> 00:17:48.168 develop a thick skin and to be able to put yourself into those shoes and 00:17:48.168 --> 00:17:50.868 say, okay, I don't necessarily agree. 00:17:50.868 --> 00:17:54.068 I don't understand why they're so angry, but I can, I can hear them, 00:17:54.068 --> 00:17:55.598 I can process what they're saying. 00:17:55.598 --> 00:17:58.808 And like you say, either offer them a chance to help make 00:17:58.813 --> 00:18:00.368 it better or say, okay, okay. 00:18:00.368 --> 00:18:00.818 Don't worry. 00:18:00.998 --> 00:18:03.428 I will still do my best to make it better. 00:18:03.428 --> 00:18:06.548 And I mean, Dale, in this book and just everything about the 00:18:06.548 --> 00:18:07.808 website, you can see that. 00:18:07.808 --> 00:18:12.308 You can see that it just comes from such a, it's just such a great 00:18:12.313 --> 00:18:14.738 place, uh, where your, your head is. 00:18:14.738 --> 00:18:17.638 So kudos on every level for that. 00:18:17.711 --> 00:18:21.186 Alison: Tell us a little bit about, because you have a new, uh, crowdfunding 00:18:21.186 --> 00:18:23.976 campaign, which was actually why you'd initially reached out to us. 00:18:23.976 --> 00:18:25.926 It went live a week ago. 00:18:25.926 --> 00:18:29.496 You're already at 92% of goal as of last I checked. 00:18:30.096 --> 00:18:33.816 Uh, tell us a little bit about, you know, how we've moved from Limitless 00:18:33.821 --> 00:18:36.846 Heroics, uh, into this new campaign and, you know, kind of what your, 00:18:37.026 --> 00:18:38.446 your hopes and dreams are there. 00:18:39.216 --> 00:18:39.486 Dale: Yeah. 00:18:39.486 --> 00:18:41.646 So, um, so it's called Inclusive Artwork. 00:18:41.706 --> 00:18:47.806 And, um, the idea was that when, all right, so tabletop, gaming products 00:18:48.076 --> 00:18:50.326 run on very shoestring budgets. 00:18:50.506 --> 00:18:54.406 Um, you know, even, and, and some of the stuff came out, uh, during the 00:18:54.406 --> 00:19:00.226 recent OGL fiasco that, um, that you see these like multi-million dollar 00:19:00.286 --> 00:19:03.316 Kickstarters and stuff like that, and you go, wow, that's a lot of money. 00:19:03.316 --> 00:19:08.023 But then once you see all of the expenses involved, depending on how 00:19:08.023 --> 00:19:12.143 they manage their, funds and, and, and stuff like that, uh, you know, some 00:19:12.148 --> 00:19:14.143 of those actually end up in the hole. 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:18.536 And one of the big expenses with any kind of, even, even a tiny little, 00:19:18.686 --> 00:19:24.596 uh, thing you see on, on DM's Guild or something like that, um, art is expensive. 00:19:25.196 --> 00:19:29.996 Um, and, you know, just even a tiny little art piece usually is gonna 00:19:29.996 --> 00:19:31.346 cost you over a hundred dollars. 00:19:31.746 --> 00:19:35.076 If you can find stock art, you can get a nice piece for maybe like 00:19:35.346 --> 00:19:38.586 two to six bucks, you know, maybe a little bit more for some, like 00:19:38.586 --> 00:19:39.936 a full page thing or something. 00:19:40.326 --> 00:19:43.866 But, um, you know, that really makes a difference and, and allows you to, 00:19:43.926 --> 00:19:50.473 to produce, uh, a nice quality product and still actually, you know, not end 00:19:50.473 --> 00:19:52.333 up in the hole for all your effort. 00:19:52.673 --> 00:19:57.133 And so I started looking around for disability, uh, representation 00:19:57.133 --> 00:19:59.413 in sort of D&D pictures. 00:19:59.749 --> 00:20:05.449 and I looked on Drive Thru RPG and there were a total of, it was one artist 00:20:05.449 --> 00:20:08.123 created, uh, like, three, four pieces 00:20:08.583 --> 00:20:09.193 Matt: Mm-hmm. 00:20:09.323 --> 00:20:09.893 Dale: And. 00:20:09.893 --> 00:20:10.493 That was it, 00:20:10.898 --> 00:20:11.458 Matt: right? 00:20:12.533 --> 00:20:16.373 Dale: And, um, and I looked around in other stock art places 00:20:16.373 --> 00:20:18.293 and I couldn't find anything. 00:20:19.163 --> 00:20:21.113 And I went, wow. 00:20:21.543 --> 00:20:26.253 And, and so I thought, okay, well if, you know, if people want to include this 00:20:26.253 --> 00:20:30.993 kind of, of representation, whether it's in a publication or just at their game 00:20:30.998 --> 00:20:35.433 table, if you're a, a DM that wants to say, oh, here's what this NPC looks like. 00:20:35.596 --> 00:20:42.196 And you want to have disabled NPCs, you know, you just, you can't find that art. 00:20:42.196 --> 00:20:43.996 It just simply doesn't exist. 00:20:44.259 --> 00:20:47.938 But I talked to some of our artists and I said, Hey, what would you think about 00:20:48.058 --> 00:20:54.928 if we did a, a crowdfunded stock art, campaign just to get some disability 00:20:54.928 --> 00:21:00.088 representative stock art available, and, um, and make it affordable. 00:21:00.268 --> 00:21:02.938 I said, I want you to be compensated properly, which is 00:21:02.938 --> 00:21:04.288 why I want to crowdfund this. 00:21:04.569 --> 00:21:08.048 but you know, I wanna make sure that, that people can get this affordably, 00:21:08.378 --> 00:21:11.288 uh, so that they can use it in their products, in their games, you 00:21:11.288 --> 00:21:12.578 know, wherever they want to use it. 00:21:12.858 --> 00:21:15.986 and said, let's, let's make a chart so that you can just 00:21:15.986 --> 00:21:17.126 start kind of filling in. 00:21:17.126 --> 00:21:22.436 We're not gonna hit every, you know, combination, but, um, but at least 00:21:22.436 --> 00:21:24.506 to, so that we get a nice variety. 00:21:24.866 --> 00:21:29.846 Um, let's, uh, we put a list together of, of other things like, um, 00:21:30.176 --> 00:21:33.086 uh, assisted devices, uh, canes. 00:21:33.116 --> 00:21:37.099 Uh, we have someone made some prosthetic wings, and then just a, 00:21:37.099 --> 00:21:40.346 a handful of, uh, service animals and, and, and things like that. 00:21:40.346 --> 00:21:44.704 So on, on Reddit, the thing that that got a lot of people really upset was that 00:21:44.704 --> 00:21:46.834 I said, neurodiversity representation. 00:21:46.834 --> 00:21:49.474 And they said, how do you represent neurodiversity and artwork? 00:21:49.744 --> 00:21:52.594 Because it's not, uh, like something that's 00:21:52.909 --> 00:21:54.499 Matt: An invisible, yeah, yeah. 00:21:54.604 --> 00:21:55.114 Dale: Right? 00:21:55.324 --> 00:21:57.964 And so like, how do you do that without resorting to tropes? 00:21:58.694 --> 00:22:03.380 And so, I thought, okay, so if I'm, you know, I'm, I'm like a fighter 00:22:03.620 --> 00:22:06.240 who's traveling from place to place. 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.590 And so you have these long sort of monotonous, just walking or 00:22:10.590 --> 00:22:12.690 riding on some kind of mount. 00:22:12.725 --> 00:22:16.175 And like how do you, how do you pass the day and, and I'm just imagining, 00:22:16.205 --> 00:22:21.785 okay, so I've got my, my sword by my side and it's got either like some kind 00:22:21.785 --> 00:22:25.955 of, um, you know, a little switch or a, you know, some kind of like fidgety 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:31.375 thing or even uh, like a texture of some kind, you know, something where I can 00:22:31.375 --> 00:22:36.085 kind of slide and I'm like, that would be like, I would want something like that. 00:22:36.175 --> 00:22:37.225 That would be awesome. 00:22:37.525 --> 00:22:42.065 And, and so, so it's the sort of thing that where we could have a 00:22:42.070 --> 00:22:46.975 sword, you know, that has something built into the handle for people that 00:22:46.975 --> 00:22:49.075 would appreciate something like that. 00:22:49.195 --> 00:22:50.095 It'd be subtle. 00:22:50.095 --> 00:22:55.405 And yet if you have a character, because stock art isn't about like, here's 00:22:55.405 --> 00:22:59.665 everything about this, but rather here's just a visual representation of one aspect 00:22:59.695 --> 00:23:05.185 of this character, which presumably in the supplement where this appears, that 00:23:05.185 --> 00:23:06.685 character would be more fleshed out. 00:23:06.865 --> 00:23:09.085 But it's like, yeah, here's their sword, you know? 00:23:09.085 --> 00:23:14.802 And, um, you know, so I, I presented that idea and like they got really 00:23:15.192 --> 00:23:17.532 Alison: Dale, are you, are you, are 00:23:17.652 --> 00:23:17.832 Dale: got mad 00:23:17.862 --> 00:23:21.852 Alison: you telling me that like my obsession with various textures 00:23:21.857 --> 00:23:26.187 and like constantly running my fingers over them is my ADHD. 00:23:26.437 --> 00:23:27.527 That's my stemming? 00:23:28.147 --> 00:23:29.187 Matt: Oh, you didn't know that? 00:23:29.537 --> 00:23:31.047 Oh, no, we haven't. 00:23:31.107 --> 00:23:32.577 We haven't had that episode yet. 00:23:32.707 --> 00:23:33.867 Oh no. 00:23:34.157 --> 00:23:35.314 Mine is hems. 00:23:35.314 --> 00:23:35.704 Alison: I love it. 00:23:35.709 --> 00:23:37.204 I love it when we learn new things. 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.169 Dale: It, it, I mean, it, it, it was a pretty recent thing, 00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:42.739 you know, that I figured out. 00:23:42.739 --> 00:23:46.399 especially when, um, when, when I was a pastor and like, I'm preaching, right? 00:23:46.399 --> 00:23:49.639 And, and to connect with your, uh, with your audience. 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.208 A lot of times I would start out with, you know, like, have 00:23:52.208 --> 00:23:53.238 you ever had this experience? 00:23:53.238 --> 00:23:54.618 You ever do this or is that just me? 00:23:54.623 --> 00:23:54.888 You know? 00:23:55.028 --> 00:23:57.858 And, and, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, like, because 00:23:58.038 --> 00:24:01.308 the implication is is like, yeah, yeah, we all experience that. 00:24:01.518 --> 00:24:04.638 And then I found out that a lot of the times people were 00:24:04.638 --> 00:24:05.908 like, nah, it's just you. 00:24:07.068 --> 00:24:07.548 And I went, 00:24:07.653 --> 00:24:08.943 Matt: No, I don't know what 00:24:09.078 --> 00:24:09.428 Dale: oh, 00:24:09.443 --> 00:24:09.683 Matt: about. 00:24:10.193 --> 00:24:11.083 That's amazing. 00:24:11.238 --> 00:24:14.448 Dale: Oh, you know, and, and now I, oh, that's adhd. 00:24:14.508 --> 00:24:18.288 That's, uh, oh, that's some of the, you know, depression that I am dealing with, 00:24:18.288 --> 00:24:19.998 or, you know, or something like that. 00:24:20.003 --> 00:24:20.268 And, 00:24:20.538 --> 00:24:23.220 Matt: You, you mentioned before, not beating yourself up because 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:25.980 that's so, so hard for us not to do. 00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:30.840 And especially when we're not diagnosed and we don't like, there's some 00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:33.420 joys in saying, oh wait, I'm unique. 00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:38.460 And also there's some frustrations in saying, oh, right, it's so much harder 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:39.840 for me to do this than other people. 00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:40.620 It seems like. 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.640 Dale: but I mean, man, it does help though because, I mean, there 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.170 are so many things where, um, like I'm just really bad at names. 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:55.410 Uh, just remembering names and, um, you know, when, when you're a pastor and. 00:24:56.085 --> 00:25:00.735 There's, you've got like 300 people that all feel like if you don't know their 00:25:00.735 --> 00:25:06.915 name after, you know, a, a few years that you just must not care about them. 00:25:07.185 --> 00:25:10.965 And, um, and it's like, well, you know, you've been here for a few years. 00:25:10.965 --> 00:25:13.665 You, you ought to, you know, have names down by now. 00:25:13.665 --> 00:25:16.545 It's like, well, not everybody wears name tags all the time. 00:25:16.545 --> 00:25:22.875 And, um, you know, and so there's plenty of people that I didn't learn their names 00:25:22.875 --> 00:25:26.055 the first few weeks, and then after that they stopped introducing themselves. 00:25:26.055 --> 00:25:28.005 And so, like, I'm not gonna ask 'em now. 00:25:28.010 --> 00:25:33.255 And, um, but you know, once I, I found out, oh, like that's an ADHD thing. 00:25:34.365 --> 00:25:39.105 Oh, so this isn't like some personal failing of mine. 00:25:39.375 --> 00:25:41.085 It's just neurological. 00:25:41.090 --> 00:25:46.485 It's just the way that my brain is wired and it's like, it's, it's physical, 00:25:47.025 --> 00:25:47.295 you know, 00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:47.859 Alison: Mm-hmm. 00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:51.005 Matt: You know, I, I think, for the people that are giving you a hard time 00:25:51.005 --> 00:25:55.495 on the internet I, I understand why they, how they could get upset, but I love 00:25:55.495 --> 00:25:57.535 that you, I love your explanation of it. 00:25:57.535 --> 00:26:00.355 And at the bottom line, it it doesn't matter. 00:26:00.360 --> 00:26:02.005 You're, these people are making it for you. 00:26:02.305 --> 00:26:02.545 Yeah. 00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:04.480 Dale: My, my thick skin is all scar tissue. 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.190 So you, you get attacked enough that you just kind of, okay. 00:26:09.370 --> 00:26:12.194 No, I actually, I ran across a great, um, quote. 00:26:12.194 --> 00:26:15.582 From Victor Hugo that said something like, you have enemies. 00:26:15.612 --> 00:26:19.512 Well, that just means you have accomplished something meaningful 00:26:19.517 --> 00:26:23.322 or, uh, or innovative in your life, or something like that. 00:26:23.622 --> 00:26:26.502 Um, and, and, and that's just what goes with it. 00:26:26.502 --> 00:26:28.632 and, and then I found out that there's different versions 00:26:28.632 --> 00:26:29.532 of that quote out there. 00:26:29.537 --> 00:26:34.772 And, the one that's quoted most often is the version that was written by Ed 00:26:34.777 --> 00:26:37.302 Greenwood in a Forgotten Realms book. 00:26:37.392 --> 00:26:38.738 Um, yeah, 00:26:38.775 --> 00:26:39.545 Matt: I love that. 00:26:39.685 --> 00:26:40.105 Wow. 00:26:40.443 --> 00:26:45.266 Well, we're gonna put all of the, all of the links of course, in the things, and, 00:26:45.326 --> 00:26:47.396 and talk about this new crowdfunder. 00:26:47.456 --> 00:26:49.376 How much more time does it have? 00:26:49.606 --> 00:26:50.566 Dale: Till the middle of March, 00:26:51.451 --> 00:26:51.961 Matt: Perfect. 00:26:51.961 --> 00:26:52.291 Yay. 00:26:52.801 --> 00:26:56.131 Alison: So people will have plenty of time to go visit the link that 00:26:56.131 --> 00:27:00.841 will be in the show notes once we post this episode, uh, to support the 00:27:00.841 --> 00:27:02.371 really cool work that Dale's doing. 00:27:02.448 --> 00:27:05.028 I, I think the way we're gonna have to end this episode is the way that 00:27:05.033 --> 00:27:08.838 we normally begin the episode, which is by rolling on our d100 table. 00:27:09.318 --> 00:27:10.008 Matt: I love that. 00:27:10.068 --> 00:27:10.458 Yeah. 00:27:10.578 --> 00:27:10.668 Alison: Oops. 00:27:10.668 --> 00:27:14.238 See, we were just, we were so excited that we forgot both our names 00:27:14.238 --> 00:27:17.748 and our own mechanics at the top. 00:27:17.798 --> 00:27:19.318 Dale: Seems somehow fitting. 00:27:19.908 --> 00:27:20.388 All right. 00:27:20.928 --> 00:27:22.428 Got my shiny math rocks right here. 00:27:22.593 --> 00:27:23.493 Alison: Yeah. 00:27:24.183 --> 00:27:24.603 Ooh, 00:27:25.773 --> 00:27:26.613 Matt: 95. 00:27:26.613 --> 00:27:28.443 And I heard some sort of tower too. 00:27:28.803 --> 00:27:29.943 Alison: Super fun roll. 00:27:30.903 --> 00:27:33.453 Uh, Dale, what is your favorite cartoon? 00:27:34.378 --> 00:27:34.618 Matt: Hmm. 00:27:34.653 --> 00:27:35.613 Dale: Favorite cartoon. 00:27:35.801 --> 00:27:36.791 Oh, wow. 00:27:36.791 --> 00:27:38.231 So many to draw from. 00:27:39.368 --> 00:27:43.598 Well, it depends on, you know, like there's action ones and then 00:27:43.598 --> 00:27:45.068 there's comedy and stuff like that. 00:27:45.068 --> 00:27:45.428 All right. 00:27:45.908 --> 00:27:48.758 Um, I will go with Pinky and the Brain. 00:27:49.568 --> 00:27:49.988 Alison: Yes. 00:27:50.288 --> 00:27:50.708 Dale: Yes. 00:27:51.368 --> 00:27:56.738 Um, because I, you know, the, the whole concept of what are we gonna do 00:27:56.738 --> 00:27:58.358 tonight, same thing we do every night. 00:27:58.358 --> 00:27:59.618 Try and take over the world. 00:28:00.038 --> 00:28:02.771 And, um, that's kind of my goal in life. 00:28:03.191 --> 00:28:06.011 Of, not necessarily take over the world, but change the world. 00:28:06.521 --> 00:28:08.471 Um, it's like, what are we gonna do tonight? 00:28:08.471 --> 00:28:09.551 Same thing you do every night. 00:28:09.581 --> 00:28:10.571 Try to change the world. 00:28:10.901 --> 00:28:11.321 You know? 00:28:11.381 --> 00:28:16.421 And, I've got a real long list of, of failures just like Brain, um, that 00:28:16.481 --> 00:28:20.291 for a, a very long time, kind of felt like everything I touch, explodes. 00:28:20.291 --> 00:28:21.941 But yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying. 00:28:22.336 --> 00:28:23.626 Alison: This was so fun, Dale. 00:28:23.626 --> 00:28:28.966 Thank you so much for offering yourself up because we loved it. 00:28:29.596 --> 00:28:33.824 Matt: And, and for the cause itself and for what you're doing and trying to make 00:28:33.824 --> 00:28:39.504 the world better, and, I mean, I don't wanna be too forward, but I feel like when 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:43.944 you wrote, I really, we really did find a kindred spirit in what you're trying 00:28:43.944 --> 00:28:48.648 to do and you're doing it even you know, better and more publicly than we are. 00:28:48.648 --> 00:28:53.867 But you're an inspiration to us and, uh, we wanna continue this, this 00:28:53.867 --> 00:28:56.177 relationship as much as best we can. 00:28:56.177 --> 00:28:56.657 Dale: Absolutely. 00:28:56.657 --> 00:28:57.887 I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled. 00:28:57.887 --> 00:29:03.560 And, uh, you know, , I, I found that even with my own show, 00:29:03.620 --> 00:29:06.200 um, Gaining Advantage that, uh, 00:29:07.010 --> 00:29:10.384 that I've, I've, I've gone back and, when I'm editing the, uh, the 00:29:10.384 --> 00:29:12.836 transcript, I, I find, oh, wow. 00:29:12.896 --> 00:29:15.146 I just really went off on a tangent there, didn't I? 00:29:15.146 --> 00:29:21.086 And um, and, and I realized that you know, my ADHD comes out in, in, in that. 00:29:21.326 --> 00:29:24.865 And, and so this, this whole idea that, neuro divergent people 00:29:24.865 --> 00:29:27.835 are more comfortable around other neuro divergent people. 00:29:28.145 --> 00:29:33.235 For example, on, um, Limitless Heroics where we, we had, those kind of, of 00:29:33.235 --> 00:29:37.825 social traits like here's when, if you're around somebody else that, 00:29:38.005 --> 00:29:41.810 that has the same thing, then any kind of modifiers in that disappear. 00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:43.910 And, um, and, 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:45.200 and, And so, 00:29:45.645 --> 00:29:46.135 Matt: Yeah. 00:29:46.521 --> 00:29:51.171 Dale: Because it's just, it's, it's not that you're incapable of, of 00:29:51.171 --> 00:29:54.075 communicating, you're just, you just do it in a different way. 00:29:54.165 --> 00:29:59.232 And, and so, just being able to, to be, on, on a show like this where, 00:29:59.590 --> 00:30:01.640 Matt: Everything that you say is gold. 00:30:01.850 --> 00:30:02.720 Everything you say is 00:30:02.815 --> 00:30:03.535 Dale: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:30:03.535 --> 00:30:06.335 It's, it's like I don't, it's like, oh, went off on a tangent. 00:30:06.335 --> 00:30:09.365 Oh, this fully expected, like, that's part of the show, you know? 00:30:09.665 --> 00:30:09.935 Um, 00:30:10.040 --> 00:30:10.280 Alison: that. 00:30:10.610 --> 00:30:11.810 Matt: We're on that tangent. 00:30:11.870 --> 00:30:12.350 Oh, man. 00:30:12.350 --> 00:30:17.360 I, I, I actually wrote down how much I love that mechanic and, and so I'm so glad 00:30:17.365 --> 00:30:19.380 that you brought it up, the adjustable. 00:30:19.770 --> 00:30:20.640 and it's so true. 00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:21.540 It's so true. 00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:26.634 Like to find your people and to, you know, be able to speak and say, Oh no. 00:30:26.634 --> 00:30:27.864 I truly understand. 00:30:27.864 --> 00:30:28.914 I am right there. 00:30:29.044 --> 00:30:29.734 That's so cool. 00:30:30.064 --> 00:30:30.664 That's so cool. 00:30:30.694 --> 00:30:34.714 Well, there's just so much we could keep chitter chattering about, 00:30:34.804 --> 00:30:36.364 but I know we have to let you go. 00:30:36.476 --> 00:30:38.536 thank you so much for being 00:30:38.536 --> 00:30:41.846 Alison: Thank you Dale, and hopefully this is just the start of many conversations 00:30:42.206 --> 00:30:42.696 Dale: Yeah, 00:30:43.286 --> 00:30:45.026 Alison: all of these exciting initiatives. 00:30:45.026 --> 00:30:45.236 Dale: Yeah. 00:30:45.296 --> 00:30:45.866 Thanks so much. 00:30:45.866 --> 00:30:48.656 It's so great to meet you guys in person and everything. 00:30:49.406 --> 00:30:50.486 Matt: Same, same, same, same. 00:30:50.486 --> 00:30:54.746 And we're gonna, we're gonna plug this in every, every small corner that we have. 00:30:54.746 --> 00:30:56.626 And best of luck on all of that 00:30:56.699 --> 00:30:57.989 and, and everything in the future. 00:30:58.199 --> 00:30:58.739 Perfect. 00:30:59.519 --> 00:30:59.939 Thank you so 00:30:59.939 --> 00:31:00.299 much. 00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:00.659 Talk to you 00:31:00.659 --> 00:31:00.959 soon. 00:31:01.024 --> 00:31:01.679 Alison: you, Dale. 00:31:01.729 --> 00:31:02.209 All right. 00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:02.689 Bye. 00:31:08.028 --> 00:31:11.958 Matt: Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 and larger 00:31:12.018 --> 00:31:13.994 Bivins Brothers Creative community. 00:31:13.994 --> 00:31:17.414 If you're looking for more, we have a hoppin' Discord that 00:31:17.414 --> 00:31:21.284 a couple of us affectionately call the Honeycomb Kill Room. 00:31:21.764 --> 00:31:23.684 Look for the join link in the show notes. 00:31:23.974 --> 00:31:28.204 Alison: We talk about all kinds of things, TTRPGs and ADHD for sure, 00:31:28.354 --> 00:31:32.434 but also TV, comics, video games, movies, theater, our pets, and 00:31:32.434 --> 00:31:33.874 really anything else on our minds. 00:31:34.084 --> 00:31:36.154 Come be nerds with us and all our friends. 00:31:36.274 --> 00:31:37.594 Matt: We also have a Patreon 00:31:37.954 --> 00:31:42.454 every day work on a Bivins Brothers Original is senselessly ignored 00:31:42.454 --> 00:31:44.704 for the sake of billable hours. 00:31:44.704 --> 00:31:49.094 And those podcasts, videos, and live streams are crying out for help. 00:31:49.094 --> 00:31:53.294 Alison: For just $2 a month, you too can be a Bivins Brothers angel, 00:31:53.444 --> 00:31:55.994 ensuring this content is seen and heard. 00:31:56.354 --> 00:32:00.854 By supporting our Patreon, you are helping more Bivins Brothers Originals like this 00:32:00.859 --> 00:32:03.804 very podcast, see the clear light of day.. 00:32:03.857 --> 00:32:07.007 Matt: The best way you can help us though, is just to share this cast 00:32:07.007 --> 00:32:08.987 with the people you think will like it. 00:32:08.987 --> 00:32:13.277 Alison: Thank you for being a pal, to us as people, to ADHd20 the Podcast, 00:32:13.457 --> 00:32:17.057 and to the Greater Bivins Brothers Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.