Co-Founder and Executive Chairman at Alteryx Dean Stoecker joins Alex Angel and guest co-host Brian Oblinger to discuss the value of community, why he believes it should report at Exec level and how it was crucial to the success of Alteryx.
Find Dean on LinkedIn. Buy his book Masterpiece: The Emotional Journey to Creating Anything Great...Anything on Amazon.
For more Community-Led resources, head over to communityled.com, where you'll find the Community-Led Growth Model, The 2022 Community-Led Report, and the Community-Led Assessment.
What is The Community-Led Show?
Join Alex Angel and Kirsti Buick as they talk to a variety of leaders about how community and Community-Led impacts their organizations.
Alex Angel 0:00
Hello, hello, and welcome to the community led show. I am Alex Angel chief community officer at Commsor and the community club.
Brian Oblinger 0:09
And I'm Brian Oblinger, SVP of new products at Commsor and the club. And this podcast is all about things Community-Led, where we talk about community leader, where we talk to community leaders, excuse me, founders, investors and other leaders across industries to understand how they're thinking about community and how to actually build Community-Led companies.
Alex Angel 0:33
And in case you missed it, the fabulous Kirsti, my usual co host is now out on maternity leave. So for the next few months, I will be joined by a rotating cast of guest hosts like Brian, and they're delightful.
Brian Oblinger 0:48
Excellent. And we're joined today by Dean Stoker, co founder and executive chairman at Alteryx. Thanks so much for taking the time out to chat with us Dean .
Dean Stoecker 0:57
Thanks for allowing me to chat with you.
Brian Oblinger 0:59
Excellent, yeah. And I'll say that for the listeners out there, of course, you were my boss for a long time. And much has been said about my time at Alteryx. And what we built and I know you've written a book, which we'll plug later that that has some information about that too. But I'd love to kind of start with the Start Here, give us a little bit of background on Alteryx and kind of community as you see it there.
Dean Stoecker 1:27
Well, so Alteryx, for those who don't know, who Alteryx is, New York Stock Exchange ticker, a y x. We are a pure play software company. We have kind of perfected the democratization of data science and analytics and analytic automation. It took a long time to actually figure it out, then community ended up being a critical component of that build out. You know, it's interesting that, that for any of the software execs who might be listening to this, trying to figure out whether or not you want to build a community. You know, Clayton Christensen used to talk about disruptive innovation. And he said that disruptive innovation is really about taking old practices and liberating them across new user communities. And we did that we took a complex area of data science and analytics and we simply brought it to the, you know, the people in the line of business who otherwise, you know, drown in Excel and hate their jobs. But we knew that in order to elevate their skill sets, especially with a sophisticated, powerful platform like Alteryx, that we had to have, not just not just the traditional means to upskill them, but we had to have new means to upskill them and community became a really critical component in that build out.
Alex Angel 2:59
So when did you first become aware of community as a concept? Was it tied to your time in Alteryx? Or was it before then?
Dean Stoecker 3:09
Well, I, I think that a few maybe, maybe the very first rendition of community for me was getting my first email back in 1990, whatever it was one, and you began to realize that there's other people around the world who want to communicate and and it's bilateral communication. It's not, it's not just one way you have the the ability, and maybe the responsibility to respond in kind with things that can be helpful or, you know, understood. And so, for me, I've I've always been a social kind of a being I've always knew that, that allowing people to talk and share ideas and, and evolve their their capabilities was imperative for us at Alteryx. I think, getting there, you know, the the lesson for executives, too, is that it's not an overnight success. I mean, you have to kind of evolve your way to greatness in community. For me, I think it began, remember, Alteryx started in 1997. The platform was originally released in 2006. In 2008, I had gone to a couple of customer meetings, and I found out that they were using our product wrong. And I was embarrassed for myself, I was embarrassed for the company, because we hadn't trained them. We hadn't shown them what the product could do. We didn't communicate its benefits or its ability to change their lives, or make their jobs easier. And so in 2008, I started a customer-centricity effort, and I think that's the first thing you have to have as a discipline around customer-first behaviors and second in line for two that was, you know, having a customer conference. So community is to me both, you know, face to face and virtual. And our first attempts were our Inspire conference, our first one, even before 2008 kind of struggled trying to figure out, you know how to get people together. I think we had 90 people attend. Last year between on prem and virtual, I think we had 20,000 attend. And so that was the second part. But the third for me was user groups. This is all before it is like two years before starting community, putting user groups together so that people could have that Inspire conference feel that excitement, that kool aid year round. And so we put together quarterly user group meetings around the world, I think we got it up to 30 or 40. cities around the world and started putting, you know, 40 50 60 100 people, each quarter in these, each of these meetings and, and then starting to elevate people into programs called aces, analytic Alteryx certified experts, called aces, kind of the black belt of of our platform. And then we knew as we really started to break out, in 2014, I knew that we had to do something different. It couldn't be all, you know, on prem face to face. Because we're growing so fast, you couldn't scale linearly with support or marketing or product that we had to have means to communicate with the people and allow the community to communicate with each other and to us in meaningful ways. And so I think it was 2016. We launched community, it was a weird experience for the company, I think, in that I had the community leader, who actually was Brian. We brought Brian in to build out the first version of community and I hadn't report to me. And I did that because I knew that it had to have the messaging from the highest level in the organization so that the employees and our customers and our partners knew that this was serious stuff that we meant business, that it wasn't just about getting together once a year or once a quarter, or naming aces, it was about putting together an environment where people could ideate they could share ideas, they could give us feedback. And so to me, it was it was the beginning of something very special. And I think software companies need to pay attention to community if they're serious about some measure of customer centered behavior in their organizations.
Brian Oblinger 8:06
Yeah. I remember very vividly our first ever conversation, Dean, I don't know if you do. And I think that was like January of 2015, I want to say, and I remember getting on the phone. And remember, at this point, I had already been doing community stuff for like 15 years, and I was always in search of like, someone like you in in your position as a CEO to really get what we were doing, you know, and want to make it the core thing of accompany, right. And I remember getting on the phone and you talking to me like I used to talk to other people that I that were in community around me. And that was just such a unique experience for me. And I remember thinking like, Okay, this, this is it, you know, this is, this is the opportunity, this is the thing and so, I am curious, you know, when you made it that, because I also remember that it was very rare, even today, you know, there's only a handful of community people I would say that report directly to the CEO. I know of a few examples, but it's not all that common yet. Did you get any pushback? You know, did were people kind of like weirded out by that? Like, what was that experience? Like?
Dean Stoecker 9:22
No, I don't think people were were surprised that it was reporting to me, I think they knew that they were going to have to adjust their their behaviors and their their ability to think differently about what it means to have customer centric behaviors. The first the first kickback I got because I think I told you in the very first meeting I said I'm going to do community different, going to report to me, we're going to invest in it. You know, there's a lot of companies who see community as a cost center and don't really get value out of it. And there's risk in doing this. But but for me the the biggest challenge was I said this early on with you. And early on with with our products team, I said, we have a sophisticated platform, it's got 260, some odd plus building blocks that you can build out any analytic capability. And that's, you know, 260 factorial is billions of combinations. No one's ever going to learn this thing, if we don't allow them some frictionless environment to share and communicate with each other. And I said, the way we're going to do that, in part is we're going to embed community in the product. Why should somebody have to leave the product, they love to get to the community that they need? And I got a lot of pushback from product, they thought they thought, well, this isn't software, I said, this is actually a product, this is a core component of product. And, to me, that was the biggest challenge, I think. And it's pretty clear based on usage, and engagement, and all the other measures for for community that was the right decision. And again, I would encourage people to think about not just having it as a place to go, but having it as a seamless, frictionless process in everything you do.
Alex Angel 11:25
That's amazing. So can you speak a little bit more to why you knew that this was such a priority for you? I mean, you've covered a little bit, but I think, how did you come to think of it as a product that really needed that level of investment?
Dean Stoecker 11:45
Well, that's a great question. And I think executives need to isolate their own KPIs and try to figure out what do they have to do to achieve those. And for me, almost the entire 24 year journey for me at Alteryx was about having limited but very, you know, critical KPIs for myself. The first was net promoter scores coming from associates. Because if our associates are engaged, then customers are going to be engaged. So my second KPI was NPS coming from customers. Customer trust defines the integrity of your company. And if if they don't trust you, it's going to come out in very negative NPS scores, I would argue that we've got probably twice the industry average for commercial b2b enterprise software plays in terms of our NPS scores. And my third KPI is the economic one. And this is where I think people miss the boat when it comes to community. For me, the third KPI was about net expansion of revenue. And that's a cumulative measure of your current customers, including churn but also how much additional product gets purchased. And so to maintain considerably higher than industry, SaaS industry, net expansion numbers, I had to have a different path to get there in net expansion is like 106, for the SaaS world in general. But for Alteryx, I think all but one quarter, one, maybe two quarters, we were always above 120. And for our global customers, we were as high as 140 or 142, something like that, which is almost unheard of. And I think a lot of that is attributed to the fact that we make the journey of getting and using and loving Alteryx so incredibly powerful. You know, customers don't want to talk, they don't want to call up tech support and ask questions. They want to actually talk to, you know, experts who are in their field that maybe they're in the same geography, maybe they're, they're in the the exact same vertical with the same use case, they want to chat with those people. And not that tech support is bad, because you have to have tech support, but you want tech support to be handling really tough challenges. So one of the economic benefits beyond net expansion is just ticket deflection. Yeah, I think that if you if you build the community right, you should see no less than 80% ticket deflection and in our case, north of 90% ticket deflection.
Brian Oblinger 14:46
You know, one of the things that was always really interesting to me and you've already said it a bunch here is about learning. Right? Like I think when people classically thought about community, and even to this day, I think a lot of people still think about, you know, forums and those things. And those are all those are all part of it right. But we really hit on something, I think that was unique and interesting and really drove a lot of those KPIs you're describing, which is learning is also a core component of the community. And to succeed, we actually need to bring learning directly into community and make it one thing, right. And so we went out, of course, and got our good buddy, Joe Miller to do that for us. Hi, Joe. Shout out to Joe. But, you know, I'm just kind of interested in that aspect of it, Dean, because I don't see that as much as I would like in the industry, you still see a lot of LMS is separate, you know, from community. Just curious, you know, since you've talked so much about it, and you're really passionate about learning as a core function of community. If you could just give us a little bit on that would be great.
Dean Stoecker 15:49
Yeah, no, I think we learned again, this is in part due to the sophistication of the platform. We knew that having classroom training was going to be dead at some point, although I think we still do on premise classroom training at large customers who get their analysts together for you know, an afternoon to learn the product. You know, I've heard people say that they learned Alteryx over a ham sandwich. And so that kind of training I think is going to be necessary. But what we did is we put together the Academy, and Academy allowed people to sort of in a guided orchestrated way, learn more about the capabilities of the platform and challenges it could overcome. So we even put together weekly challenges, it's still one of the most popular parts of community today, where every week, you can go solve a different problem. And it's not always a business related problem. Sometimes we make it fun with I think I saw a recent one around predicting the NBA Championship playoffs or something like that. And so we try to make it fun. Because in analytics, the hardest part of analytics is knowing what question to ask. We make it easy to solve the problem. And so we have to give people not just keystroke buttonology training, because that's dead practice too. We allow them to think cognitively about how do you how do you solve the question that I just asked? How do you answer it? And so we walk them through weekly challenges. And we've gamified the whole platform, the whole community, so people are rewarded and empowered. And it's pretty exciting. You know, I think we're, I guess, north of a half a million posts, we've got 250,000 or so likes, we've, I think we've got more than 30,000 posted solutions. I'm not sure what's been said publicly, but I think there's probably close to half a million registered users. We also made the community not exclusive, I think that's the last thing you want to do is create an exclusive community. So we actually made it so that anyone could sign up, you don't even have to be a customer. We want everyone to learn a better approach to data science and analytics. And so we opened it up to everybody, educators, students. So if you, if you go to community.alteryx.com, you can sign up and you can read the stories and the posts, and we even have now integrated our gallery. We used to have different sites for all these things. And we began to realize that an LMS part of community is kind of a mandatory practice having a gallery whether it's monetized or not, and ours will be monetized, I suppose at some point, but just to allow people to share their their results. Because they've become superheroes, and there's no better way to do that than to stand in the town square, and beat your chest over some complex problem that you could never solve before. Nobody should ever go through analytics alone. And we made it so that they're surrounded by a ton of people who they can reach out to to solve simple buttonology questions or complex business analytic processes.
Brian Oblinger 19:15
So so we spent, I want to fast forward a steam. So we spent two, like two years roughly building all this stuff out and kind of getting to a place where I think both of us felt like, Okay, we really got something special here. And then just as fate would have it, it was kind of IPO timeline. Right. And tell me a little bit about that. I mean, I know when we put out the S one, there's a section in the s one specifically around community, I think the word community appears like 30 times in the s one or something. So could you tell us a little bit about when you started that process to go public? How you talk knocked about community and How was that received by investors and other folks that were interested?
Dean Stoecker 20:07
Well, I've always talked about community and every customer meeting I've ever been in, with almost every partner, strategic alliance with almost everybody that that we come in contact with. I think that if business executives, selling or building and selling software don't get it. I'm not sure investors completely get it now, when you tell investors, and we didn't do this in the S1 or at the IPO. But certainly I have had earnings calls. And I think Mark has had earnings calls, even recently, where we've touted the fact that what we've learned is that companies who have their users registered on community, they spend 3x, of what customers do that aren't on community. So we know it has a force multiplier effect. And, you know, we didn't browbeat anybody to spending that money. What they figured out is that, if I can learn this, anyone can learn this, and they started bringing their associates and then you start doing larger contract deals, because we're more questions exist in business than, you know, days in it to solve some of these problems. So I think investors appreciate it, I think, the more social software gets, I think that people are beginning to realize that you have to have a force multiplier effect, you can't scale linearly. If you if you want high growth companies, you've got to have an easier mechanisms to allow that to occur. Meanwhile, getting all the benefits that you thought you would also get, you know, better retention, a larger expansion, ticket deflection, NPS scores and all the benefits there. So, you know, we talked about it to investors, but for them, they really only care about one of my KPIs. And that's net expansion.
Alex Angel 22:23
That's amazing. And before I jump into my question that I think ties really nicely to this, I just want to say that I wish I had known about the Alteryx community back in the day when I was trying to fumble my way through data analytics and teaching myself and I just can see how much value you have created in a space like that. And I hope that anyone out there who's listening to this goes and checks out the community. And I think for any CEOs or founders who are in this position of thinking about maybe creating a community, they have an inkling of an idea of what they're looking for. And they're hoping to be you someday to really take it to that IPO moment. Like what advice would you give to these folks are what they should be thinking about right now?
Dean Stoecker 23:22
Well, I I think the most important thing for executives is before community, you've got to establish this, this customer centric behavior, because when you launch community, your whole company has to be involved. Content contributors are just the people in community. I think we've got, I don't know, 18-20 people in community today, that would scare most executives saying 20 People to have community? Well, if you can get 3x growth out of those customers, absolutely. But I also think that it's a matter of timing. You can go too early. I mean, you could have a beautiful community organized and all the meaningful ways to help customers. But if you don't have customers, I mean, it's like that old saying, don't spend money, you don't have buying things you don't need to impress customers you don't have. And so I think what happens is people get these ideas, they invest, nothing happens. And the first thing to get cut is community. And that's why it's got to report to the C suite. And the CEO has to be be driving this, I think, but there's a timing to it. And you have to invest and you can't say we're going to do community, but we're only going to dip our toe into the water. You got to be all in. And I think that for some companies, they don't want to have a community because to them the hardest part of being customer centric is you have to have an ear. I mean, God gave you two ears and a mouth for, for the right reasons. I mean, you should do more listening than you do talking. And I think a lot of software companies, especially enterprise companies don't want to hear their customers bitch and moan about difficulties with the product, but if you don't want to listen to customers then don't have a community, because it's an obligation at that point. And I can tell you that, you know, the other popular part of community for us is our ideation. So we've put in, I don't know, dozens of product features, both product features, even community features, based on customer feedback. And yes, you can have these meetings face to face, and you can have roundtables and, you know, Premier customer programs. But you can also just listen to any customer who's having difficulty with the way the UI or UX works, or the integration of this part with this part. And so you got to you got to be willing to, you know, hear customers out and give them good feedback as to why you will or why you can't include a feature. But you can, in fact, you can go to ideation in our community. And you can see, we actually post which features have already been added, which ones are already on the roadmap, and which ones have either been declined, or, or rejected for some specific reason.
Brian Oblinger 26:37
Yeah, I remember those initial conversations when we talked about ideation, and it was just music to my ears to hear, "no, we're actually going to do these", you know, because so many companies put up idea exchanges. And they say, you know, we're listening, you know, tell us what you want. It's like you're listening, but you're not hearing them, right, you're not actually understanding what they want, nor are you doing it. So I totally agree with that. And it's something you know, we've certainly tried to teach as many, many companies as possible along the way, but to your point, it's, it's a huge organizational change there. Okay, so next next one for me, Dean, I want to kind of I was fortunate, right, because you have this passion, you had already set it up this way. I reported to you, I had your big hammer when I needed it, you know, at certain times along the way. But what about, you know, I assume we have a lot of, we're gonna have a lot of community professionals listening to this, and we'd love to get a little bit of advice from you from kind of the CEO perspective of, if I show up in a company and I am not quite set up that way yet. Right. I report somewhere into marketing or, you know, wherever it may be, what do community professionals need to think about to get someone like your attention, you know, what should they be talking about?
Dean Stoecker 27:51
Well, I guess there's, there's two sides of this, maybe. One is, you know, how to convince executives to hire community leaders to start the process. And the other side of it is, you know, from a candidate's perspective, what to stay away from. So if you're engaged with an executive, who is contemplating community, you've got to be able to drive home the economic benefits. A lot of executives in their ivory towers think big but aren't articulating or don't get the feedback around fiscal benefits. And what does it cost to take an eight minute 12 minute 20 minute ticket over the phone with an $80,000 body and you start growing and then then of course, it's linear growth. And so you got to, you've got to talk about the benefits of ticket deflection about customer engagement, about feedback to help your product team, which is going to be you know your product engineering team is going to be what 22% of your, your total spend, and so you got to make them more efficient. And so it's got to be an economic conversation. It can't be oh, we're gonna gamify and people are gonna get badges and they're going to be so excited. That's what happens. But that's what you can't that's not what you can sell. From a candidates perspective. I mean, going into a role, I would be concerned if it was if community was not reporting to the C suite. I was very careful not to put this under a marketing team. Not to put this under a support team. If it wasn't at least under Customer Success, I wouldn't do it. I think two years into our community, I turned it over to Chief Customer Officer. And it still sits with Chief Customer Officer today. But I don't think I could have pulled that off in the early days. And I was worried that it would go the way that most communities go, it becomes a trouble ticket site, or it becomes a marketing platform, or it becomes a sales mechanism, last place I was ever going to want it was going to be in sales. Because people get turned off when they're pitched. And so even today and community, we're very, very careful about giving too much real estate, to to sales and marketing, you'll go there and you'll see an Inspire session because we want people to get together for the the physical community. And then there's a free trial download, and that's it. So I think you have to be careful of where it reports, and you've got to make sure that the budget is there, you know, I think too many people under invest in community, and that's the beginning of the end. If you're an enterprise software company, especially, you know, companies like ours, who, well, it's b2b enterprise software, it has a, b2c, kind of a feel, I mean, we're selling to individuals, human beings. And, you know, if there's anything that social media has taught us is that almost everything we do in our world is got a social component. And I think we prove that analytics is a social experience. And you have to provide new ways for people to communicate. So make sure it's reporting to the right person, or organization, and then make sure that they have a clear path for budgeting. Otherwise, you'll end up building something that nobody cares about.
Alex Angel 32:01
This is amazing. And I think, literally everything that you just said is going to resonate so much with certainly all of the people in our community. But hopefully a lot of the people who are kind of in this broader sphere of influence sphere of Commsor influence for lack of a better term. Because I think that it really is so critical to have the investment and to have the understanding and to really set the community and the team up for success. Because otherwise, even if you do invest in it, but you do it wrong, you're going to be kicking yourself because you're not going to see the return and the real impact that it can have. And I love that you've given some examples of actual return that you did see, because I think that there's a lot of talk about theory of community and how it can potentially do stuff, but very few real concrete examples that folks can turn to and point to and say like, Hey, this company IPO'd and community was a backbone for how they got there.
Dean Stoecker 33:12
I think the other part of this, too, is is that it doesn't happen instantly. I mean, when we first started, we had, you know, hundreds of 1000s of users of our software, but we knew it wasn't going to be an overnight success. Because people were used to picking up the phone and calling somebody and then you know, then they would wait. And they would wait. And what they really, we figured out that they wanted to do was communicate with each other. But you gotta be in it for the long haul, when you start, you have to make sure that you have critical mass. Otherwise, you'll have an empty community. But you you've also got to evolve it. For example, we put together a Data Science portal, because not everyone has the same tenure with our platform. Some people have advanced themselves into machine learning work, feature engineering work. And those aren't the same people who are just beginning with our platform and a drag and drop, click and run sort of a way. So you've got to cater to the entire community, not just parts of the community. And if you're in it for the long haul, you end up seeing the benefits not just in the KPIs that I had mentioned. But for example, while while we have won many awards over the year, I think last year was probably the coup de gras for us. And that was the winning the 2021 CMX community of the Year Award against all the other great platforms for community that exist in the enterprise software world. So it'll pay off in spades but you got to invest. You got to have it report right and you got to be patient
Alex Angel 35:00
Yep. All right, final question for you. So we started asking all of our guests this and I honestly kicking myself that we didn't start sooner, but what community, whether personal or professional means the most to you?
Dean Stoecker 35:20
Well, that's a good question. I am a member of a golf community. To me, that's fun, because it's, I'm not a great golfer, but the camaraderie and the the communication and the conversations about, you know, business, you know, politics, life, it to me is very meaningful. Most of these guys aren't online, they're typically these are face to face things. I guess, for me, the the online, and I'll call it a community, I think LinkedIn is a reasonable community, although it's, it's not really the kind of community that we're talking about here. I think community in general, from growing up as a kid community was important, you know, the block parties in the the local fireworks, outings, all of those things are important because you can't get can't get through life, in isolation, and so for for the business world, I think it's even more critical, because you've got your paycheck to worry about, you've got your family to feed, and you've, you know, all these other things that are really important. And you've got to make sure that you're always learning that you're always sharing, you're always, you know, giving and I don't know, it's, it's a great thing, what community has been just a complete blessing for for Alteryx. And I think you would, you would hear that from customers. As you know, I was looking on online this morning and community and some of the some of the most active posters, were putting many things up today, putting up problem solving that they had done or sharing some app that they had built in Alteryx. And already, within minutes, getting lots of likes and referrals and people beginning to follow these folks. So it works. Community works.
Alex Angel 37:25
Yep, I love that so much. Well, Dean, thank you so so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It has been absolutely wonderful having you. And before we sign off, is there anything else that you'd like to touch on that we haven't covered today?
Dean Stoecker 37:41
No, I think that going into the community business is a tough spot. The vendor community for community software has been difficult for the vendors. And I think it's less about the vendors, it's much more about executives who don't see community as a benefit to to financials of the organization, it is the perfect place for financials of an organization. So stick with it. You know, build out communities share what you've done, because ultimately, the software world is going to be dominated by great communities, who, you know, will help companies build better products.
Brian Oblinger 38:30
Fantastic. Well, hey, Dean, Thanks for Thanks for doing this. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you for taking a chance on me back in 2015. And giving me the opportunity to do this and so proud of what we built but honestly, just always honored to chat with you and and get your knowledge on this. So thanks so much for that.
Dean Stoecker 38:50
Well, and so in parting, you know, my 24 year journey was an emotional one. As you know, most software companies, you know, don't succeed in two years, or five years or 10 years, most of the great software companies ended up taking 15-20-25 years. And so I wrote a book, it's called Masterpiece, the emotional journey to creating anything great. I talk about community in the book. I give my email in the book. So anyone who, who wants to talk about community if they're considering a position somewhere, or they're trying to convince their existing bosses that they should get investment. I'm happy to consult it to me. You know, going back to that question about what am I favorite communities, my favorite communities, you know, in part are helping other entrepreneurs, other CEOs and founders, because these are the difficult decisions that you've got to make and I think I can help people get through the dark swamps. So pick up my book, give me a ring and happy to do one on ones.
Brian Oblinger 39:59
That's awesome. We'll definitely include a link in the show notes. And for all of our listeners out there, as always, if you're looking for resources on building a community led organization, you've enjoyed this conversation, hopefully, and it's sparking some, some things in your mind. Go to community led.com. And we'll put that link in the show notes. And yeah, this was just, this was wonderful.
Dean Stoecker 40:21
Great, Brian, Alex. Thanks.
Alex Angel 40:24
Thanks so much, and thanks for everyone who's listening until next time,
Transcribed by https://otter.ai