David Barnard:
Welcome to the Sub Club Podcast, a show dedicated to the best practices for building and growing app businesses. We sit down with the entrepreneurs, investors, and builders behind the most successful apps in the world to learn from their successes and failures. Sub Club is brought to you by RevenueCat, thousands of the world's best apps trust RevenueCat to power in-app purchases, manage customers, and grow revenue across iOS, Android, and the web. You can learn more at revenuecat.com. Let's get into the show.
Hello, I'm your host, David Barnard, and my guest today is Daphne Tideman, speaker, writer and freelance growth advisor specializing in subscription apps and other D2C products. On the podcast I talk with Daphne about why skipping user interviews is costing you growth, how to bring your product's aha moment forward into your marketing, and why your assumptions about why people use your app might be wrong. Hey Daphne, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Daphne Tideman:
Thanks for having me.

David Barnard:
Really looking forward to chatting. This topic is one that we've kind of touched on on the podcast before, but we haven't done a deep dive. I think that's a shame. So I'm excited to have you on and talk about jobs to be done. You've done a webinar, some blog posts on the RevenueCat blog. So let's begin, what is jobs to be done?

Daphne Tideman:
So it's definitely a great topic to talk about because it's something that once you understand it, it changes everything the way you see it and it's getting away from what is it that your app actually does and thinking instead like a job to be done is what is your end user trying to achieve? What is their end goal? And I always think of it as like they're going from A to B, and you are helping them along the way in that journey and it's working out what does that journey look like and how can you support them to get there rather than just thinking about like, "Look, this is what we do, these are the features we have." Because so many apps are constantly talking about we have this feature, that feature, but that's not why people use your app.

David Barnard:
How do you discover those jobs to be done? How do you go through and figure out how people relate to your app in that way?

Daphne Tideman:
So I think the most important part of it in working it out is really speaking to your end users and having those interviews and trying to understand, okay, what led you to actually using our app and just treating it again as almost a journey that you came along halfway in that journey. They probably didn't just suddenly start struggling in that very moment. They'd probably been trying to work it out for a while and trying to figure out what was then the reason, the problem they were trying to solve and diving really deep into that as to what were they doing before that, how were they solving it in the past, and what then led them in that moment to think, "Hey, let me try out your app." And that will tell you, okay, what are they trying to solve? What are they trying to achieve?
And asking really about that outcome, what difference were they hoping to see by using your app? That's for me, the most valuable way of doing it. But often when I'm trying to work this out with a brand, I like to have multiple data points. So the other thing I also like to do is go through all the reviews. Obviously there'll always be some reviews that are just purely about the functionality of the app. Hey, it crashed, I'm unhappy about this or great app and that tells you nothing. But I've also found that review mining and going through all the reviews and reading the more in depth reviews of them saying, "Oh, I came across this because I was really struggling with my ADHD and I was trying to find a way to better focus and someone recommended this to me," will also help you work out okay, what are they trying to achieve?
The other thing I also like to do is look at like, okay, we have a survey data working out who are the ones who are staying the longest? So who's been subscribed for a while, who's actively using your app? They're not just basically have a subscription they've forgotten about, but they're actively using your app, they're making the most of it, and asking them through a survey. That's really a good technique if you have a big database to make sure that your interviews are more focused. But if I could choose one thing I always say the interviews because that's everyone's least favorite thing because it costs most time, but it's the most valuable.

David Barnard:
Yeah, totally. When going through that discovery process, how do you think about primary jobs to be done and secondary jobs to be done and how those relate to each other? Example I've given on the podcast before and what I think about constantly is I still have my side project, weather app, and it's interesting to me that there is a primary job to be done of like, "Is it going to rain tomorrow? What's the weather like today?" And I can kind of go through and figure out some of those jobs to be done, but then there's also weird, subtle jobs to be done where weather is almost entertainment for folks. Weather is a topic of discussion and part of the job to be done for some people using my weather app or any weather app is knowing the weather so that you can have a conversation about it later.
So, "Oh, do you know it's going to rain tomorrow? Or gosh, wow, it's going to get really cold next week," or it's probably not something I would use for messaging. This is the best app to be able to talk about the weather. But it is kind of part of the subtlety of how people think about using a weather app even if it's not a primary. So how do you think about those aspects of those primary jobs to be done and the secondary jobs to be done and even the apps where it's maybe not as task oriented, but maybe the job to be done is a little more subtle?

Daphne Tideman:
So I think it's really good to get that layer deeper of what is it that's actually driving them to come back, because that's also for the retention side, hugely important. And also in terms of your differentiator because a lot of apps can tell the weather, so you just purely messaging around like, "Hey, you can find out what the weather is tomorrow," and you're not going to stand out. And I think it's actually no secondary more subtle things that you allow things to stand out. So when we did the painkiller versus vitamins webinar with Welltory, it's a health tracking app. People love the data side of it, but it's actually making it more fun, making it almost fun to check out and little learning moments and almost as engaging and scrolling through X and reading these little nuggets of wisdom that get people back. So I think it's really good to know those secondary ones and even if you don't use it in your messaging, they might be what drives that retention because they might be that extra side of it that creates an emotional connection.
And I think when we talk about jobs to be done, there's the functional drivers purely like I'm trying to solve this problem, like I'm trying to stay fit, but there's also the emotional drivers like, "I'm not feeling as strong as I was. I feel like I'm getting insecure about how I look." And those emotional drivers, I'm not saying misuse them in any way, but I think they're stronger. They are so much stronger than the functional drivers. So I think even if they are secondary, they might be stronger for you to get it back. So I don't think you always have to pick one or the other. I think it's good to understand both sides of it and to then work out what do you want to show also.
And that was also a really good thing that came out of the webinar when we were talking about it was this example of rather than trying to tell people with your messaging, messaging is so much more than that. It's not just the language, it's how you're positioning yourself, it's how you're bringing things across by showing them things rather than telling them. And going back to that Welltory example, they would basically pulling your data in the onboarding and you'd immediately get some insights about yourself in the onboarding rather than tell you, "We can give you insights."

David Barnard:
You mentioned another category too. It is nice for folks when they're thinking through this job to be done discovery, like what are these jobs to be done? You also mentioned social drivers, so yeah, functional drivers, emotional drivers, and social drivers. So what is that social driver piece and how should people be thinking about that?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, so I think with the social assignments we can pretend that we're very rational people. We're really not. The society's expectations and what others expect of us plays a role in our decision making and also that desire for connection. And we see that also growing as a form of gamification in a lot of apps of how do we connect with others that we might not even know that we have never met. And that that can also create a driver to do things like going back to the workout. It's the thing that we know we should do, but for a lot of us it is a struggle. It is a struggle to do it. And so having people hold you accountable and also appreciate it when you do things. Like, I don't very actively use Strava, but I always get kudos from a few people who always standardly are supporting on their end.
I go on there to support them too, especially I know they're training for a race or something or a competition and that social aspect can also be a driver and a reason why you use something. So that's also a consideration, especially with apps where there's a community or there's some fun little gamification about the social aspect, that can be a big reason why they use your app is to feel that connection.

David Barnard:
The founder of Ladder fitness app, had him on the podcast twice now, but the most recent episode he talked about how there's a new feature they added, it's like a cheer feature where live while you're working out, other people can kind of cheer you on. And he said that they ran the data on that and people getting cheered on was highly correlated with additional or some amount of increase in retention, I forgot exactly the numbers he shared, but it's exactly what you're saying is that the Ladder app is now more retentive for incorporating those social dynamics into it. And then yeah, we see this a ton in community apps.
There's another health and fitness app I've had on the podcast, food logging app, and they have a huge community and the community is a huge driver of that long-term retention. So yeah, there's so many examples of how this social dynamic, and again, you don't think of it as a job to be done. You wouldn't necessarily say the job to be done with Ladder is to get cheered on in a workout. No, I mean how would you reframe that then under this kind of social driver? How would you frame that as a social job to be done?

Daphne Tideman:
Ooh, that's a good one. When I experience this, I want this so that I can, is usually the framework I use in framing these jobs to be done. And so I would almost say let's take Ladder as an example. And I really can relate to this because I use Peloton and I've had it also on Peloton where someone random person claps me on and I just suddenly start biking faster and it's ridiculous they can't see me. They can make me see how many output I've done, but I just start biking faster. So I believe this really does work, but I would say it's like, okay, when I want to, let's say when I want to get stronger, I want to feel supported and motivated to work out so that I can stay consistent and see the results. It's not the perfect framing, but we're going on the spot here.
And I think it's almost like the how, how you get your users there is that social kind of driver is like if you understand what drives them, you can play on that to help them achieve their job to be done. If you understand that the social aspect of it matters to them or helps keep them consistent and that accountability, then you can play on that. So it might not even be in your job to be done sentence, but it might almost be the understanding that that's what's driving them and knowing that underlying drivers of that job to be done might be what helps you then help them to achieve their goal, if that makes sense.

David Barnard:
So there's so many ways once you start to understand the jobs to be done for your app to then apply them across all different parts of the app. So let's start with messaging and how to apply this understanding of jobs to be done to messaging. And I really liked what you already said about my weather app is that if all I'm messaging to people is you can check the weather, there's a million apps that can check the weather and that's part of understanding these jobs to be done is also helping identify those differentiating features. So how do you work that into messaging and then how impactful can that be in more effective messaging?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, so I think my first step is always narrowing it down because I think that's something that a lot of apps struggle with is that there's quite a few potential ones and then when they try to cover all of it, it's really hard to get that in there because you are more limited in like, "Okay, how many places and how much can I communicate?" And obviously in the end of the day you can always personalize it or make different personalized flow, but you kind of want to have this starting point of like what is my initial messaging? So I always first, with the jobs to be done, try to narrow it down a bit. You should have already narrowed it down by only speaking to those high spending users and those high potential ones. But then I also look at what is the problem that we're trying to solve?
How good are we at actually solving that problem? How good a solution are we for that and how much chances there that we can differentiate? And that's where another part of my research, which we haven't talked about yet, comes in which is competitor analysis and understanding which angles the competitors are going on. Because back to the weather app, if everyone's just saying, "Check it within a moment or talk about the weather," then you're not going to stand out on the app. And then I'll narrow that down and then what I'll do before I integrate it into order messaging of the app itself is I'll test it first. And if you're running ads, meta ads are great for this because what I've done in the past is I've literally tested very similar visuals with different messaging overlay on them and different messaging in the text and then tested those against each other first on the job to be done level with a more general image that isn't skewing people too much in one direction or another.
And then narrowing it down of do we want to talk about pains? Do we want to talk about the gains of what people are trying to get in terms of benefits? Do we want to talk very literally about the jobs to be done? Do we want to talk about the situations when you're experiencing this, this could help you? There's different ways of bringing it across. So I tend to narrow that first down within the ads and everyone's always like, "Meta is so visual," but it's insane the differences I've seen in the click-through rates just with these different jobs to be done. And then I start to see, okay, how can I then start to not only be able to, like what we talked about before, bring it across in a copy way, but how can I bring it across in a visual way? And so when we're talking about messaging and integrating it, we need to be looking at every single visual we do, every single message we do, how can we bring this across to the user in a way that it then resonates with them?
And if you've done also that review mining and gone through all those reviews and kept a nice log of the reviews, and yes, you can speed it all up with AI, but I really believe strongly and also just spending a few hours just completely immersing yourself in the language, you'll have this extra benefit on top of that with the messaging for the copy side of it where suddenly your language becomes more human, it starts to resonate more. And so I would start really first with the acquisition side, not to improve acquisition, but to use it as a way to test different messaging. And once you've tested that in a few different ways, you can also use emails for this if you've got a good size email base. You can test with push notifications, you can test this in different ways. Once I start to get confident of, hey, we're consistently seeing this win, that's when I start to test integrating it step-by-step and seeing how can we bring this better across?

David Barnard:
And you're actually looking at in meta the different conversion rates and even the different monetization of the user depending on the way you frame the job to be done?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah. So I'm literally looking at like, okay, if they have enough data and the cost per trial for example is low enough, then we can do it based on that. That's the ideal. If it's not, or if they're a very new app and they don't have big budgets, then I'll look on click-through rates and see what seems to be resonating better versus the rest. I will say when I do it on a click-through rate basis, because click-through rate doesn't always perfectly correlate, I will try to run a few tests and see if I can test it somewhere else.
I've also, by the way, used for example, a usability hub to run five-second tests with two messaging and ask people what their preference is and why and what stood out. That's also really, really good in refining it because sometimes you use a word that just triggers people the wrong way or people don't understand what you mean, you're trying to be too smart. And so that can also, if you feel like, hey, I really don't seem to be getting it right or I feel like there's something quite off but I don't know what, of getting a bit more qualitative feedback on it.

David Barnard:
How do you think about different personas too? In Ladder, my wife is a persona which is so different than me as a persona and there's so many different people and those people do have different perceptions of those jobs to be done. So yeah, how do you hone in on that? Because even in the A-B testing, maybe overall one message resonated more, but the other message did resonate well with a different audience. How do you think about the personas in that?

Daphne Tideman:
The reality is we rarely have just one job to be done and we rarely just have one way of resonating with that job to be done. So I first try to get the most out of that job to be done because I think people are very quick to try and do everything at the same time and I will build a persona around that job to be done. So for me, personas aren't about fluffy demographics, they're really about what is the person trying to achieve, what are their struggles, what are their questions? And so I'll first really try to get the most out of that job to be done, but then I'll go back and see, okay, also again based on that survey data, we probably had a few jobs to be done that we're spending quite a bit, that we're retaining that seem to love the app and using it actively.
So I'll go back and interview a different group and try to work out, okay, what's different with them versus the other one and how can we basically then adjust the way we are doing things to them? And I think that's a great thing about if you are using ads, meta will find people who will resonate with your ads. So you can have different groups of ads, one that's speaking to one job to be done, one that's speaking to another. Where I think it gets a bit tricky is obviously you can use custom for them in terms of what they're seeing in the app store or if you're doing web to app, it's you can also do it there. But where I think it gets a bit more tricky is once they're in the app, I think that's where the personalization with an onboarding flow is really important that you're adjusting the content that they're seeing and the experience they're having in that onboarding to the different jobs to be done.
So Headspace for example, they're very focused on sleep, but if you say you're struggling with anxiety and stress, you're going to see very different content in app than if you click on sleep. And I think that's how apps can also adjust is making sure they're asking the right questions in the onboarding to work out what variant of that job to be done are they speaking to and what do they then need to show them to actually be able to onboard them and resonate with them. They're probably going to be showing a different form of social proof, they're probably going to be talking about different content in the ad and they're probably going to be using different language.
And I think that's where that onboarding comes in. It's not about learning it for your sake, but it's learning it for their sake so that you can still feel like it resonates with you in terms of that job to be done. And I think Ladder does that too. I haven't used it myself, but I've gone through their quiz once before and they seem to ask you quite specific questions where they're trying to work out who are you and why are you potentially going to use it.

David Barnard:
Yeah, totally. I finally started using the Ladder app myself recently. It's funny because it gets to the point is that I was using the app Fitbod and my job to be done was that I want to specifically build some muscle. I'm 46 and all the experts are saying to age well, you need to have a decent amount of muscle mass on you. And so I didn't associate Ladder with that as directly as I did Fitbod, and then it's in the home gym and I like to customize my workout.
And so there were all these subtle things where I just thought, "Oh, the Ladder app's not for me," but once I went through the onboarding and then I found the right... So what they do is they ask you all these different questions and then they pair you with a specific coach. What's fascinating there is that in the Ladder app, in a way, they have lots of different jobs to be done because for my wife, she has totally different goals and what's great is they have different coaches inside the app that have different... They almost kind of satisfy those different jobs to be done.
And so I got paired with a coach who was very, very specific to what I want in a workout. And then once I finally did the workout, it was incredible. They do kind of take you through this whole process of figuring out who you are, what you want out of a workout app, and then they pair you with the exact right person. We talked about the app a ton on the podcast. I almost feel embarrassed saying I just started using it. And then also that we talk about it so much, but they're crushing it. I mean they're growing like crazy and part of the reason is things like this, it's like the Fitbod app, it's great, it's a great app. I used it for years, I've really enjoyed it. But why I think Ladder is doing so well is that they're able to satisfy the jobs to be done of a Fitbod app and a Peloton app.
And it's like because they have so many different coaches, because they have such great personalization, they're really executing on this whole idea that we're talking about with the jobs to be done and it starts again all the way in their advertising. I did want to step back to the advertising again before we get into using jobs to be done for activation, because I do want to dig deeper into that too. Are there specific examples? Because I love for folks to be able to tangibly take away things and to try in their app, in their marketing and everything else.
So what are specific examples of messaging in screenshots, in marketing, in social copy, in all the different ways you're going to be getting attention and funneling people into the app, how do you think about that messaging and what specific examples can you give of communicating those jobs to be done in the messaging? And you mentioned this concept I think in a blog post, a message market fit. How do you fit that message to that market?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, so I think there's two sides of it. So there's, what's the messaging for that market and then that messaging breaks down into the positioning and the language that you use. When it comes to the ad side of it, I think one of the strongest formats that gets used a lot is just the transformation. And that's what... I've been hammered by Ladder of their ads basically showing me, "Hey, this is what I look like before, now I've been using Ladder, this is what I look like now." And Coopah, a personalized running app had a really good one of this before where they were also showing the pain point of, I actually knew the person in the ad, Esme, she's a fitness influencer, and she was showing, okay, this was my marathon time and then again and again and each time I'm not improving, I'm getting similar times.
And then I started training with Coopah and I've actually, I'm training less, I'm feeling better and I've finally got my marathon time down and I'm hitting the goal I want. So I think that transformation is such a good one and makes a really good ad because then it's like what you said, it was only when you saw people like you that you thought it was for you. And I think that that's format of seeing people like you with the same struggle, trying to do the same thing works really well. And one of the examples I've given recently is of this app called Tractive, which is a dog tracking app, and they are a combination of an app and a physical product to track [inaudible 00:24:17] your dog. I have a half Husky, which anyone who has a Husky or knows Huskies well know that they are notorious for running away.
My dog likes to run away and I saw a million of their ads, but all their ads were 35% off on dog and cat trackers, GPS and health trackers. If your ad is just saying get this discount, this is what we do. That's not speaking to someone's job to be done. But then I read one of their reviews and it was about this Siberian Husky that had run off and the owner was so grateful she had Tractive. It gave her so much peace of mind because the dog literally got in a car with a stranger who was trying to find their owner. They weren't stealing, they were literally just driving around and the owner could follow this car for 15 minutes to the vet that they decided like, "Okay, let's just bring the dog here until we can work out with maybe the microchip hoots, and they could get their dog back."
And just literally followed a dog on having this little ride along with a random stranger. And I was like, if I saw an ad showing this, I would've bought this years ago, but it took me losing my dog for the 10th time and multiple people telling me, you're an idiot trying to fix this with an air tag. You keep losing your dog. Either you don't let him loose or you put him on... Or you get a better tracker for me to realize this was the solution I needed. And so I could have bought it five years ago, they could have had so much more money from me if I'd realized that I just didn't know that I needed a GPS tracker.
I didn't think that was the solution. I spent ages trying to train my dog. I spent ages trying to find alternative ways of doing it with long leashes, with using an air tag, but it just didn't process. That GPS tracker work so much better until I actually lost my dog again and I just followed him through the forest on his little wander around until I could get him back on leash and be like, "Okay, you've lost walk and loose."
So I think trying to bring to life that journey, either the start of the journey or way they can be is one of those most powerful ad formats out there. And there's a reason why Ladder who, you're right, are crushing it. And I've tempted to use apps so much from all the ads I've seen. I've just been very strict on myself because I just got my Peloton and my Peloton prescription, but it's because it's like you say, it's exactly, they're speaking so clearly to my pain point of, hey, you want to get more into shape, you want to do it efficiently and not over train, you want to feel not just that you look a certain way, but you feel strong, you feel good. And they're showing literally people who look exactly like me and the transformation they're seeing that I'm like, "I'm so tempted by this, but I really shouldn't."

David Barnard:
Yeah, yeah, it really is such a good example. Another good example I've been seeing lately, and I don't think they would frame it this way, but in this conversation it dawned on me that so many of the strategies I'm seeing on TikTok end up being kind of jobs to be done strategy. So Cal AI is a great example. They've been blowing up lately and they pay a lot of influencers. There's a little bit of mixed messaging on Twitter. People act as if it's fully organic, but they actually pay a ton of creators to create this. So it's a different form of paid marketing when you pay UGC creators, and I think even they're putting money behind some of that as well. But when you look at some of their ads, the ads are brilliant because it's a TikTok day in the life of, or different things.
I mean they have so many different formats they've used, but one of the ones I saw, they just incorporated Cal AI into their normal routine. And so the job to be done is wanting to track your food, but tracking your food is a hassle. And so they show them going to a workout and then they're coming home and they're eating a meal and then they just take a photo of the meal and it tells you the calories and then they move on with their day. It's almost like it's not an ad because it's in passing that they just happen to show it. But it ends up being so compelling because we all know if you're trying to lose weight, you really should track your food, but tracking your food is a hassle and to your point, what's the differentiation of Cal AI? Take a picture.
And so they're very almost subtly working it into this TikTok that can go viral and get more attention because it's not an ad, but then they're showing the job to be done in such a powerful way because instead of it being this big hassle pulling out the app and logging your food, you just take a picture. I think that's a great example of, again, I don't think they didn't sit down and think through the jobs to be done framework, but it works out that way. And by sitting down and thinking through the jobs to be done framework, you can start creating those kinds of ads that really do more directly show off the differentiation of the app and how it satisfies those jobs to be done in a better way.

Daphne Tideman:
I think if you were like, "Okay, ignore the job to be done framework," a different way of almost thinking about it where you're indeed doing this accidental thing, which it sounds like they're doing is they've realized what that aha moment is. What is the moment that people realize this is something I need to achieve, whatever they're trying to achieve, and they're just working out how can I bring that forward in the journey and to help bring it across it? And the reason it's working is because it's speaking to that job to be done of like, "Hey, I want to be able to track it with ease," but it's just bringing that almost forward. And that's what I was also saying about show don't tell rather than having an ad saying, "We do this, it's so easy. It takes two seconds." I think what we need to remember is there's so much emotions, even if it's not an emotional driver leading them to use it, there's always emotions around these things.
You can say, "Oh, I just want to learn Spanish because I'm getting married in Spain next month and it's helpful to speak Spanish," but there's always that emotional drive with those insecure moments and that feeling stupid that you can't say something and that fear of mispronouncing, and I think you might get people on board just speaking to the functional, but I think you hit a sudden ceiling with that and you get past that ceiling by understanding emotional drivers behind a job to be done and really speaking to that and finding different ways to bring that across.
And the thing is, you said they were paying those people, but those people were probably also just thinking like, "Okay, how can I show this? Let me show it as part of my life." And it's actually ironically, it's so easy to almost find these different angles and stuff when you do it that way because you don't have to come up with it yourself. You look at your customers, you speak to your customers, and they'll give you all these ideas. And whenever a brand also says, "I'm running out of ideas or angles with the ad side." Yes, there's different ways you can ask AI to do it, but I think the most powerful ones is just watching and learning from your customers and seeing how they're doing it.

David Barnard:
Yeah, totally. You said something in there that I thought was really fascinating is bringing the aha moment into the ads. And again, I want to get to the activation and onboarding and stuff, but that is in a way starting the onboarding process and getting that aha moment into the ad is so powerful and I had never thought of it quite that way before. It's like if you have an aha moment, can you work that into the ad in some way that kind of brings people into the app already excited, already motivated, already kind of understanding that aha moment.

Daphne Tideman:
Because I think in a way Ladder failed you because you only realized you needed them when you went through the whole onboarding. And it was the same material I had with Tractive, I only realized I really needed them when I'd basically had the same issue multiple times and exhausted all other options. But if they'd understood what was the app you were using before that?

David Barnard:
And see that's what's funny though with... The app I was using is Fitbod. What's funny is I never saw any Ladder ad, I think that was my problem, is that I talked to the CEO, I heard about the app, but for some reason I never got Ladder ads and I don't use Instagram a ton, but I use it enough that I should have seen an ad. So for whatever reason, I didn't ever see an ad. And so maybe that was the missing piece was that their ads would have convinced me, but I never saw one.

Daphne Tideman:
And maybe that was intentional, maybe you weren't the primary jobs to be done that they're focusing on because I do feel like they're also really heavily going after this kind of the female audience, and that might just be the ads because of the ads I'm seeing I'm assuming this, but a female audience that's very focused on getting stronger without getting overly buff and feeling more confident around it. But I think it's like if they could understand there's a reason why you switched. And I think understanding also what's that feeling underneath what would lead you to switch? Are you actually missing what's not fulfilling you with your current solution? And that's often one of the key questions I ask people. It's like, "Okay, what were you using before this?" And it doesn't have to be an app because you can also track calories manually yourself and write them down.
You can also make your own workout plans. You can also go to a personal trainer or use a YouTube video. So it's like, what were you using before? I'm like, what's the reason why you're not happy with it? What's leading you to consider something else? Or if you weren't considering something else, what was the reason that when you saw something else that you were like, "You know what, let me try this instead." And I think, yeah, that's why that once you really understand that, then you can work out like okay what's... There's the aha moment that keeps you on board, but there might also be another aha moment that helps you realize it's time to switch. Because most of the time people, they might not be a hundred percent happy, but they're not actively looking. And that's where I think that aha moment, bringing that in earlier, and that's why I was like with Ladder, it's like if you had seen an ad, it was almost like, I think they do quite heavily a web to app funnel, if I'm not mistaken.
But if it wasn't a web to app funnel, you almost want to think about, okay, with the ad with the app store, where are all these... There's so many moments before you get to the onboarding already that you can start to create that feeling that they understand you and that get that almost aha of this is actually what I need. Because with the competition there is now, it is never been easier to make an app. I think you said that in one of the recent podcasts. It's so easy to make an app these days. You can't wait until they're in the app to get them to that moment. I think that's also what's really changed in the last 5 to 10 years is there's more and more pressure for us to bring that in earlier and fight to build that trust. But when we do, there's more spending power than before because that's the other thing that you saw in the state of subscription apps is the amount people are spending seems to also be going up, if I'm not mistaken.

David Barnard:
Since we turned this into a Ladder product market fit seminar.

Daphne Tideman:
Oh yeah, I haven't even used the app. That's the worst part. It's so unintentional.

David Barnard:
I've only used it once, because it was just last week. But in talking through that, it made me realize that the reason I didn't use it was because I've had lower back issues since my early 20s. And what I liked about Fitbod was that I was in control of the exercises. I built my own plans and I built them around knowing which exercises trigger my back and being careful to not do things where I know my form or whatever. So the aha moment for me in Ladder, and I think this is a recent addition, so this is maybe why, but the aha moment was that they actually make it now so easy and honestly even better than Fitbod to customize the workout to where you can hit the right muscle group with different exercises and it's really easy. The user experience of switching out the exercises to accommodate your needs is really, really good.
And that was the aha moment was when I was able to go through the workout and in seconds customize it. So it's like I don't know if that's a strong enough job to be done for enough people. I mean, maybe I'll send this episode to Greg, the CEO, and tell him they should maybe do some experiments with the job to be done of people who have specific needs and are worried that a workout app is going to force them to do exercises that hurt them or problematic. Whereas now the app is so good at being able to just go through and make those customizations.

Daphne Tideman:
And I think that kind of touches on another key part of we've liked a job to be done, like logically, we think everyone just wants to achieve that. And if we show them they can achieve that, that they'll do that. But like you said, you had the concern upfront, will this hurt my back? Will I be able to create something that I need? And when you saw that that was the case, you were like, "Okay, great. Let me try this out." That's the other thing I always ask people. It's like, okay, what almost stopped you from signing up? What kind of concerns did you have? And sometimes people don't know it, and then I ask them, have you recommended this to friends and family? And I'll say like, "Yeah, I recommended it to this person." I ask them, "What questions did they ask you?" Because they'll forget what they might've been worried about because they want to confirm like, "Hey, no, I made the right choice. I wasn't concerned."
But they'll remember the things that other people ask them, what came up because then it's uncomfortable. It's like, "Oh, I encourage you to do this." And you're basically like, "Will I actually do this? Did I actually know if it did that or not?" Because sometimes you can't answer those questions. And so I think that's also a key part of it is again, it gives you so much content when you understand these jobs to be done because you don't only just speak to showing the transformation, but you can also then lower in the funnel like speak to, hey, all these different concerns like, "Can't do certain exercises? No stress. You can customize it completely to what you need to prevent yourself getting injured." There's so many different ways you can then bring that in and create also content around that. But that's why I preach those interviews so much because I'm like you only realize this stuff by speaking and having these conversations.

David Barnard:
That's such a great one too, of asking those questions of what stopped you. If people don't end up in the app, I guess this is the more user research kind of things where you're doing user research with people who have never used the app, didn't see an ad, and then you just go through and you walk them through the process and then ask those kind of questions or how do you get at these blocking points? And I guess you could do it in the app at different stages of the funnel where people drop off the funnel figuring out why they dropped off the funnel. But yeah, how do you figure out those blockers?

Daphne Tideman:
I'd probably combine it with something else that we are talking about these huge apps right now, and the reality is that most apps don't have huge database always to work with, especially if they're just starting out. And I work a lot with startups, so I really know and feel that pain. So I would say if you want to speak to people who've never got that far and do those kind of interviews with them, I would look at what other solutions fulfill your jobs to be done and then recruit users, for example, using a platform, and I have no affiliate with them, but for example, userinterviews.com or respondent.io, use a platform like that to recruit users who have used similar solutions in solving the job to be done and then asking them a question about, okay, which of these is a pain point for you? And just give them a load of bogus options in there that you're not asking them, "Hey, have you struggled with this pain point? Yes or no?"
Because everyone would just say yes to them, but making it more difficult for them to work out what's the right answer. And then you can basically indeed do those interviews with those people who have never even converted, might not even know you yet. And first what I tend to do is work out their job to be done. Again, confirm, figure out what solutions are they using, what do they like and dislike? Where have they looked for alternatives? And then do exactly what you said like a user test with them and walking through it and then getting them to talk out loud through their experience of it to see, okay, where are they getting the hesitations? What questions are they having? What's not clear? That tends to be something I do slightly later in the process because I want to first work out are we on the right track with this?
And then once we've validated this is the messaging, this is the angle we've improved our onboarding around this, have we actually done it well enough? Have we actually got it across? Where are the places that we're still not working out? Because you can do it before that for sure too, but I think it's so much more powerful to do it once you've actually understood what you're trying to bring across and you've refined that initially to really take it then to the next level. Because again, I'm always thinking people won't want to do five rounds of this because everyone's always don't have enough time to do this, but it is very impactful.

David Barnard:
But these are the things that make or break. I mean just talking through this, it's just a reminder to me. I've done some user testing in the past, but I have not done it recently and I'm not talking to users in my side project app. Why? Because it's hard. I have a full-time job. It's like I squeeze in a few hours a week if that. But these are the things that make or break, this is how you grow and become a much better, stronger app is not just your own individual product intuition, but it's actually talking to users. It's a fantastic reminder. And for those folks listening and thinking, "I don't have time. This is too hard." It's like, well, if you're struggling and you're spending hours and hours and hours and hundreds of hours on product development, you're spending hundreds of hours on marketing, you're spending hundreds of hours on other things, this is going to supercharge all of those things. Going out and talking to users and guess it's hard, but you got to figure it out.

Daphne Tideman:
It also save you time because you'll end up doing less features. You'll remove things that aren't helping people on that journey. You end up refining your product roadmap so much because of it versus trying to test everything. You'll get really a lot smarter in terms of testing. And the challenge I'm going to give you for this is because it's a weather app, it's helping people. So you can literally go out to a park and just put it in people's hands and offer to buy them a coffee from a local cafe or go into a cafe and do it there. I had an app that's like a 24/7 pet app. I love working with dog brands because I have a dog, so another doggy sample, but basically you can just send in a short video, short audio note if you're having an issue with your dog or cat or whatever pet.
And they'll get back to you within minutes and let you know, "Hey, do you actually need to go to a vet? What should you do?" So if your dog eats something in the park, you don't have to rush immediately most of the time, but if you don't know that, you kind of do it out of panic and spend hundreds. And so for this app, I basically went into my dog park and just asked a load of people there who were walking their dogs, we walked the dog together, strangers, I'd never met before, and just asked them to test the app. And I said, I'll give them a year free of it as a thank you, like a year subscription for free as a thank you for it. And I just ask them to go through it, sign up and just send them one random question they have on their mind about their pet.
And if they didn't know, I'd give them one. And I just go through that flow and I found so many issues and so many things where it just wasn't resonating, bringing things across. It was clunky, it wasn't working. And it took me just like an hour or two of walking around the park with my dog to get so many insights. I just put my phone record on. It was very low-key. Nothing fancy. So that's the other thing I would say. If you say you don't have time for this, next time you're in a cafe, just strike up a conversation. It's scary for the first two times, but I promise you people are actually half the time, find it really intriguing and just kind of go along with it. I've done it even for non apps, like a pension brand too, just talked to random people at cafe, bought a load of people coffees and learn so much from all these random people about how the site was performing.

David Barnard:
I feel lots of folks will be mortified by that idea, but maybe you can hire somebody who is more outgoing and have them video record the conversation or something. But I did want to move on to activation. So we spent a ton of time talking about getting the messaging right for ads, for screenshots for that initial messaging. But then how do you translate that into the activation moment and how do you iterate on that to really dial in the activation using jobs to be done?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, so I think when it comes to the activation side, hopefully if you've already integrated this before, you've already kind of built that trust of like, "Hey, you're going to have this aha moment." But it's like, okay, how do you now bring this across and how do you start to build a habit around this? And I think what's really key with this is understanding what could prevent them from actually consistently using it and how can you make it easier or funner to actually do it? Because I think for a lot of jobs to be done, we say we want to do one thing, and this is something again, we talked about in that painkiller vitamin webinar bit. It's like we say we want to practice gratitude, but do we actually take the time to do it? We say we want to learn a language, but do we actually take the time to do it?
And so working out what those kind of barriers of them achieving it in the past, what's the reasons they failed to achieve that job to be done in the past can then help you work out what is it that I need to integrate into that? And that's where I think gamification often does come in and making it even more fun or making it more engaging to basically achieve that and have that sense of progress. And so I think your whole activation is about giving them that feeling of progress and getting there. So I was doing some work with a gratitude app, and one of the ideas we talked about is like, well, why don't we do a free day challenge potentially in the onboarding already, and then actually have them already do that first gratitude practice so that they feel like I've already achieved something.
I've made progress already. And I think that's why a lot of these language apps will immediately try to get you to do your first lesson and just make it as small as possible. So I think bringing into the activations like, what is the tiniest step you can get them to do to make them feel like they're making progress from A to B, even if it's a false sense of progression. With a workout, you might not immediately be able to work out in that moment, but is the feeling that you have a plan in place, that you have clarity, does that almost give you that tick off feeling? And I'm not talking about just streaks or that, because I think they can be quite flawed as a mechanism, but that's a different topic, but it's that feeling that you progress, that you've done this tiny thing where even if it's just planning it, what gives people the feeling that they're moving towards achieving that job to be done, even if it's a false sense of progress, but it's just giving them that feeling of let's help you get there.

David Barnard:
Yeah, you keep saying false sense of progress, but honestly, I think this is one of those subtle secondary jobs to be done is that what's one of the jobs to be done of a gym membership? Part of the job to be done is making you feel guilty that you're not using it. And paying 50, $60 a month and not ever going is part of the jobs to be done because that's highly motivating. I'm spending money, I'm wasting money by not going to the gym. So even like you were saying with a fitness app or even the gratitude app, I think that's really cool how in the onboarding you could even ask the questions, and this would be real direct progress. What are you grateful for today? It's almost like you can page by page, step them through what is the gratitude practice, and then at the end, congrats, you've done it.
You've successfully completed day one. Now move on to day two. But you can work it in a more subtle ways to help them make progress. And then like you said, with the health and fitness app, the plan is progress, having a plan in place, being ready to work out, versus just showing up and having to figure it out on the spot. I mean, again, that bring this back to me in Ladder, but that was part of my problem with Fitbod was that they do have an automatic feature that automatically generates a workout, but I never liked the workout. So then every time I would go work out, I would go through and have to customize and customizing the workout would take a long time. So then I created some preset workouts, but then I only had two preset workouts and I'd alternate between them, and then I got bored of those two workouts.
And so having that plan in place, and that's what's now the killer job to be done about Ladder is that I have a personal trainer, super experienced, super talented, pre-selecting all the workouts for the week. All I have to do is show up, and then it only takes me a couple of seconds to customize it and then I'm on and going. And so having that plan in place is part of the job to be done of a fitness app, of a meditation app, of a lot of these apps. There probably are examples of false progress as well, but I think progress toward the goal is progress. So yeah, help people along the way and then celebrate that they've made some progress.

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, I think, I'm just trying to think of the fact. So I work a lot with wellness and eco-friendly kind of brands, so it's a bit easy in that space to have immediate progress. But I am also very conscious that there's also different types of apps where the end goal or where you want to get to might be a bit bigger, or you might not be able to do it at the moment of downloading. So let's say you've got an app that's helping you with doing your tax return. You might download it with like, hey, I really need to do this, but I don't need to do it right now. But in your mind doing the job is doing the tax return and that's what you need to work out is what does progress look like for them? And you can then reshape it because you're saying, hey, I appreciate that having the plan is part of it, but not everyone might see or understand that.
So I think it's trying to work out with that initial moment because I think my activation is longer than that, just that initial moment. But I think it's so important with that initial step of showing them, "Hey, you are one step closer." I think LinkedIn also does this really well. It's where they show you your profile's X percent complete. So it's not a huge task of doing the whole profile, but I've already filled in a bit. I'm leveling up, I'm improving it step by step. With my tax return, I might not be able to do it yet, but maybe I've got a clear idea and I've completed step one, because I know which documents I need or I've set a reminder, like a push notification that I'm going to do in this moment, put it in my calendar. I think it's just trying to figure out if you can't get them to do it in that moment.
Because a lot of people download apps on the go, they see it, they think it's interesting. They're like, "Oh, I'll try that out sometime." How can you still get them in that few minutes that you might have while they're commuting or doing whatever, get them to feel like this is actually going to help me achieve what I want to achieve. And then the retention side of it is really interesting because that's where you also just mentioned it's like you got bored and I think that's what we also forget. It's like our jobs to be done and our knowledge are, they evolve over time. So I've been using a recipe app for a long time to work up recipes, but they just got repetitive, they got similar. They didn't feel as inspiring anymore. And that actually led me to try out a few other different recipe apps because I got to a point where I didn't feel inspired the way I did before.
Or maybe my cooking has also evolved in like, "Hey, I want to try more new things or do different things. I love to cook anyways." So I wanted something that was challenging me in a way that doesn't anymore. And I think we're going to use different fitness app for once, sorry, Ladder, really happy to still try it out. But Sweat is a really good example of this because I used them just when I was starting to get into working out. I'd been running a bit before that, but I had not been very consistent in it and I really wanted to see a difference in it.
And they had all these programs that each time I could go from beginner, intermediate, advance and really feel like I was getting to a next level. And I think if we go from activation flowing into the retention side, I think it's also working out how is their job to be done changing over time and what do they need to get to next level? What is it that's going to lose them? And that's where your trend customers are so important to speak to them. Because if they'd spoken to you and asked them, "Hey, what's going on?" You'd be like, "I'm really bored at this thing. I just don't feel motivated anymore." And the irony is they probably had the content to keep you engaged, but they weren't making it easy or being conscious and proactive in preventing that.

David Barnard:
Yeah, and that's actually a good example again to bring it back to the Ladder is that I had actually downloaded the app and gone through the onboarding, I don't know, six or nine months ago. In the intervening time is when they added that feature to be able to customize the workouts. But I don't think I ever got an email saying, "Hey, you can now customize workouts in Ladder." And so that's a good example of the retention and reactivation is that don't forget as you add things and create new features and refine things, there are people who have previously used the app who may come back or may get activated for the first time by showing them that you now solve this better or in this new way or you now solve this other problem that they had at the time, but you didn't solve that problem. So yeah, it's a powerful framework for retention as well and reactivation.

Daphne Tideman:
We promise this is not an ad for Ladder, neither of us was sponsored by Ladder, when the irony is we done one workout between the two of us in Ladder. But yeah, I think it's definitely a great way to also get people back. It's like this is why I think it's so important to have a way within your app to identify jobs to be done. So even if you're not being direct and asking the question, knowing specific content or knowing specific actions or parts that people will use if they have a specific job to be done means that when you then speak to charmed customers of that job to be done, you understand why they're charmed, what were they missing, what never spoke to them if they never even activated, you can then use that to also segment and push people hopefully back in.
And ideally it's easier to keep them on board initially, but if you haven't managed to do that or you're still evolving in how you speak to it or you've expanded the jobs to be done, you're working with like Ladder seems to have done, then you can basically still go back like you said, and pull people back in and show them like, "Hey, now we do get it. We let you down with this, we get it. It wasn't good enough," and it's a physical product, but I saw a laundry detergent that basically people weren't happy with the packaging of it and they sponsored, it was called Tallow and Ash, it's an eco-friendly laundry detergent in the UK. They sponsored a post about saying, "We're sorry about our previous packaging. It wasn't good enough. We've got new packaging."
And it was such a weird thing to sponsor and do as an ad. It was just an organic post probably on their social that they've just boosted up, boosted to get more reach. But I actually thought it was genius because it was basically saying like, "Hey, sorry we weren't good enough for what you needed. You came to us because you wanted to reduce waste, but then it was making a mess and you don't want to make a mess when you're doing your laundry." And just being very direct about that, "Hey, we're sorry. We weren't fulfilling your job to be done. We weren't helping you in the best possible way, but now we are and this is how we're going to do it and make it better for you."

David Barnard:
There's so much more we could talk through about retention and reactivation with jobs to be done, but I did want to touch on monetization before we wrap up. So how do you think about jobs to be done in relation to monetization?

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, so I think one of the key parts is what we started with is who's actually spending the most? Because you're going to have customers with a high LTV and you're going to have customers with a low LTV. And if we look at the fact that cost of acquisitions are going up and up and up, the people who have that high LTV understanding what jobs to be done have a high LTV versus those don't, should be determining who you're focusing on. And as a result that's actually also helping you improve your monetization because you're basically focusing more on those high value customers and serving them well versus trying to serve the loudest voice in there. I think that's one side of it. Another side of it is that often I see brands shaping their pricing around the specific jobs to be done of users and having different packages based on like, Hey, what are you trying to achieve? What job to be done do you have?
Because for some jobs to be done, you'll see that they need all of your features and with other ones they only need part of it and they should have that option. And to basically, if those are both strong jobs to be done, they both have a lot of potential to spend, but one might be spending slightly more over a shorter period of time versus slightly less over a longer period of time. You can also look at how can we shape our different package options to really speak to them and make sure that people can figure out what's the right one for them. If we look at Mimo, as I think people are maybe sick of our working out or they're really inspired to work out because of this, if we look at Mimo, the coding app, there's people who want to learn to code just for fun and there's people who want to learn to code because they really want to become the developer.
Now I know from my conversation with Katja, their previous head of marketing growth that that first audience is more valuable, but they do have a different tiers and if I'm not mistaken in terms of how actively you use it, how much support you get, what features do you need because someone who's just casually playing around with it might not want as much, but they might still be a valuable user. So I think that's the other one is seeing do jobs to be done have different requirements and different also amounts that they're willing to pay? So that you're not just blank at pricing everything, but that you're adjusting it according to what they need and also according to what they're comparing you to. Because I think that's why I was going to go back to Ladder, I'll leave it, I had another Ladder example, but yeah, I think it's working out what will allow you to also charge them the right amount that they're willing to spend on that job to be done.
And I think that's that final also part of it is when you become a painkiller, so an unmissable app in their life that they really need and want to use constantly, people are less price sensitive, they aren't going to care as much when you increase things, they aren't going to be as difficult around it because they see you as something irreplaceable. And so if you've made yourself irreplaceable, you're going to see those conversions rates go up, you're going to see that you're going to be able to put through price increases so much easier because you become such an integral part of their lives.

David Barnard:
This is something we've talked about on the podcast here and there, but I do think this idea of being able to charge more for users who find more value is where things are going to go next with subscription apps. And again, we already see this in the biggest apps, Tinder creating a $500 a month subscription tier. And we've talked about it at times that if you're early, don't complicate things with multiple subscription tiers, like focus on the higher value job to be done and just stay focused. But I do think tiering is such a powerful thing when the time is right. Too early, you're probably just going to screw up and divide your focus and complicate the product at a time where you just need to be moving forward and moving as fast as you possibly can. But it is such a powerful thing that, like you said, once you're solving a really painful thing in a really elegant way, your pricing power is so much more than you even realize.
But then on the flip side, I think what's happening to a lot of apps as well is that they're charging so much that it only makes sense for the users who are perfectly aligned with that value prop. And by introducing a lower tier, you can retain users who don't need those other features, who don't find it as valuable. This is something I'm actually after advising not to start it too early, I'm actually right now considering even though my weather app made 100K last year, it's like showing signs of product market fit, it's headed the right direction, but I've been charging $40 a year because we have really expensive data. But what I've realized is that the job to be done for a lot of my users isn't that expensive data. I can just use the cheap Apple weather data and create a lower price tier at $20 a year instead of $40 a year, which is pretty expensive for a weather app.
I don't know if I'm going to do it right away, but I will eventually create two separate tiers where those more advanced multiple data sources is in the more expensive tier. And then the kind of more simple, just use Apple weather data will be the lower tier. And that will also even be a great retention plan for those who, "Oh, it's a great app but I don't want to pay $40." Well hey, here's the $20 option. So depending on where you're at in the stage of your app, you should be thinking what are those jobs to be done that are more valuable and is there an opportunity to add another tier? And when you're solving new problems, that's a great time to think about that as well, is if you create a really big new feature that solves a new job to be done or solves an existing job to be done in a much, much, much better way, that's a great opportunity to introduce that higher price tier where you bring a lot of the users who are already paying and increase that revenue per user by introducing this new feature.
And it's also a lot easier than just raising the price across the board. It's like, "Hey, we're giving you this brand new thing, but it's going to cost more." There's so many ways to apply jobs to be done across the app, monetization, activation, messaging, ads. Yeah, it's been so fun talking through all this and really appreciate you coming on the podcast to talk about all this.

Daphne Tideman:
Yeah, likewise. And I think you're right, it's not a matter of can it impact it? It's thinking of the right stage for you, and I think if there's one overarching takeaway for it is like when you're using jobs to be done, apply it in a way that's right for you at the current stage you're at. If you're starting out, focus on working out, working out what is that job to be done? What are the hesitations, what are they using right now? What is their perceived value of solving this problem? You just that to work out that initial pricing because it's not about how much it costs you to store that data. End of the day if they don't see value in it, like you said, not every user does. They don't care. They don't care what your costs are, they really don't. How much do they value this problem being solved?
How much have they spent on it and how can you basically make them feel like they're resonating? If you're at a later stage and you already have an existing user base and you're already quite good at speaking to certain jobs to be done, use it as a way to identify an additional audience. If you've already really felt like you've done everything for that initial audience, but you're struggling to grow because you've kind of got the most out of your first niche, use it as a way to figure out, okay, what are other jobs to be done that I'm already kind of serving? Maybe I don't have it perfect yet, but I could be serving it more. And maybe that will be the inspiration for a separate price tier. Maybe it'll be an inspiration to add in a certain feature or maybe it'll be an inspiration to actually remove certain fluff that isn't serving any of them that will make you more applicable to them because you can make sure that they get closer and quicker to that aha moment.
So I think it's really trying to work out where are the issues, and I always say there are signals if you don't understand this, if you're asking your team, what is it we do and who's our target audience? And everyone's answering completely different things, if you're struggling to convert them and activate them, but you're seeing that once they get it, once they really get it, they're retaining, that's usually a signal that, hey, you haven't got that quite right and you're not speaking to their jobs to be done enough early on because you have to work so hard to get them to that next point. And that's often also a great thing then because it means like, hey, fundamentally we've got something here, but we just need to figure out how to bring it across. And that's where jobs to be done is nothing more than a tool, but it's a very powerful way to bring that across.

David Barnard:
Yeah. Well, I think that's a fantastic place to wrap up. It is such a great tool across the entire lifecycle from messaging to activation to retention to monetization. Anything you wanted to share as we're wrapping up?

Daphne Tideman:
No, I think that definitely helps you move on with it. If anyone wants more content on this, I'm regularly writing for RevenueCat. It is every month a few new blog posts and I actually come back to one of my favorite topics and you can also check me out on LinkedIn. I share also a lot of tips and examples there as well. Who knows, maybe Ladder will be one of my newest examples after this.

David Barnard:
Yeah, great. Follow on LinkedIn if you're not already following Daphne on LinkedIn, she posts a lot of great stuff, so definitely follow her there as well. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was really fun chatting through all this and I think there's so many great takeaways for people to... We shared a lot of examples and hopefully people listening can take those examples and reframe them into their own app of like, how do you think about those people like me who didn't see the right ad? And how do you find those different solutions? Not everybody has a fitness app. We talked about Ladder too much on the podcast, but hopefully people can generalize some of those examples and think through how this works out in their own app.

Daphne Tideman:
It's the most powerful way to understand it because it brings the human aspect back to it all. And it's when you realize, hey, I've been in these moments myself, and I can identify with how someone's feeling, even if it's a different type of app. It helps you see those moments for your own app. So I think examples are the way to go with this because I think that's the issue why a lot of people have heard the phrase, they know like, "Oh yeah, we should focus on jobs to be done. We should work on our messaging." But it's a harder thing to fully wrap your head around. And I actually find the more examples I give, the more you start to see what I like to say life through job to be done glasses.
Because you start to think of what's the underlying job to be done for everything you are doing. And also other people are doing, it ruins it slightly, but it's also very helpful because it helps you work it out better for yourself. Yeah, and there's loads of practical tips and examples for your ads as well of what you can be doing there for improving your onboarding. So definitely take that along too and apply it to your own setup.

David Barnard:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining me. This is so much fun.

Daphne Tideman:
Thank you. Appreciate it.

David Barnard:
Thanks so much for listening. If you have a minute, please leave a review in your favorite podcast player. You can also stop by chat.subclub.com to join our private community.