WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330 author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land. 00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889 Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139 thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999 I have a request. 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009 If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319 It really helps us get this work done. 00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299 As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad. 00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645 And over the last 20 years, we've developed several 00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285 equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs. 00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485 If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning. 00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814 com. 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665 So without further ado, let's meet today's guest. 00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:46.769 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:46.800 --> 00:00:47.779 I've got a treat for you. 00:00:48.160 --> 00:00:50.190 I've got Warwick Schiller. 00:00:50.589 --> 00:00:56.749 His Warwick ness is here and the reason I asked him to come on this 00:00:56.779 --> 00:01:02.964 podcast is because obviously Warwick does many things and does many things 00:01:02.964 --> 00:01:10.774 well, but what I think a lot of people really find practically useful, well 00:01:10.774 --> 00:01:13.815 actually this, people find many things practically useful about what he does, 00:01:13.815 --> 00:01:19.954 but what keeps coming up for me is this word attunement, and how attunement, 00:01:22.195 --> 00:01:30.815 being able to attune to your horse, to your client, to the environment, 00:01:31.484 --> 00:01:37.139 to what's going on in the sensory system, to perhaps things that are 00:01:37.350 --> 00:01:38.699 less rational than those things. 00:01:40.880 --> 00:01:44.549 It seems that the people that do this and really do this 00:01:44.579 --> 00:01:46.360 consciously achieve great success. 00:01:47.279 --> 00:01:50.410 And I've just seen this time and time again, within the horse 00:01:50.410 --> 00:01:53.239 boy work within the dressage work that I do within all of it. 00:01:53.250 --> 00:02:00.880 Anyone who's doing Warwick's Attunement stuff seems to be able to 00:02:03.080 --> 00:02:08.450 pretty much a level of success that I'd say is a. 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:09.750 Above the norm. 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:13.030 So I wanted I think why we need to talk about this on Equine Assisted World 00:02:13.060 --> 00:02:16.960 because it's just something that People need to be more aware of about how to 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:21.110 do but they don't want me banging on about it They want the man himself. 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:23.019 So here he is Warwick. 00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:23.540 Welcome 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.130 Warwick Schiller: Thanks for having me, Rupert. 00:02:26.179 --> 00:02:32.019 I'm glad you quantified your, your statement before when you said, yeah, that 00:02:32.029 --> 00:02:37.239 the one thing that Warwick does that's kind of useful is this achievement stuff. 00:02:37.239 --> 00:02:37.320 No, 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:38.029 Rupert Isaacson: that's not fair. 00:02:38.030 --> 00:02:42.019 You know, he also, you know, lives next to a brewery and 00:02:42.019 --> 00:02:43.179 will take you there sometimes. 00:02:43.179 --> 00:02:44.299 I mean, it's Yeah, I will. 00:02:44.820 --> 00:02:47.979 Warwick Schiller: And I live across the road from a winery too, so yeah, I do have 00:02:47.989 --> 00:02:50.140 other, I do have other good qualities. 00:02:50.690 --> 00:02:54.550 Rupert Isaacson: But this attunement thing is something which I think 00:02:54.790 --> 00:02:57.699 is a word that people, when they hear it, they go, Oh yeah! 00:02:58.099 --> 00:03:01.210 But then when one actually thinks about it, well what does it actually mean? 00:03:01.690 --> 00:03:04.179 And what does it mean in terms of, 00:03:06.930 --> 00:03:09.570 we'll start with horses, but then I want to move to people. 00:03:10.390 --> 00:03:12.500 And then I want to bring it back to horses and people. 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:17.549 All right, Attunement Warwick, what is it? 00:03:18.140 --> 00:03:19.299 Why do we need to be aware of it? 00:03:20.979 --> 00:03:23.339 Warwick Schiller: Well, let's, maybe let's talk about, you know, it's 00:03:23.339 --> 00:03:26.059 interesting you mentioned, you know, you want to start with the horses, but 00:03:26.059 --> 00:03:30.329 it's also for people and, you know, for me, a lot of the stuff that I have 00:03:30.329 --> 00:03:36.849 found that I've changed over the years with horses has been human psychology 00:03:36.849 --> 00:03:40.909 stuff that I've used with the horses, cause you know, the horses are mammals 00:03:40.909 --> 00:03:44.659 the same as we are, we have a mammalian nervous system, all that sort of thing. 00:03:44.659 --> 00:03:49.469 But for me, I first heard the word attunement in a book by, I 00:03:49.489 --> 00:03:53.069 think he's a UCLA professor of psychology named Daniel Siegel. 00:03:55.674 --> 00:04:00.544 His definition of attunement was the sense of being seen and being heard. 00:04:01.134 --> 00:04:05.524 And then later on, I had a guest on the podcast Sarah Schlotter. 00:04:05.534 --> 00:04:08.644 You've met Sarah, you met her at the first summit. 00:04:09.044 --> 00:04:12.134 And she kind of expanded upon it and she said that attunement is the 00:04:12.134 --> 00:04:17.209 sense of Being seen, being heard, feeling felt and getting gotten. 00:04:18.449 --> 00:04:23.049 And so it's, it's really like in the human sense, I really believe it's, it's, 00:04:25.499 --> 00:04:28.889 it's getting someone on a level that most people don't get them on. 00:04:28.889 --> 00:04:32.819 Like they fully, you know, when someone tunes with you, they, 00:04:32.979 --> 00:04:35.189 they get you on a deep level. 00:04:35.249 --> 00:04:39.329 Like, it's almost like you've, I had a conversation with someone. 00:04:39.554 --> 00:04:43.804 And our last summit actually when the presenters one night and I said 00:04:43.804 --> 00:04:44.724 to her afterwards, you know what? 00:04:44.744 --> 00:04:54.724 I don't think I've ever felt that scene before like she got me On a level that you 00:04:54.724 --> 00:05:00.534 know I don't think i'd ever met anybody who got me on that on that level like 00:05:00.554 --> 00:05:04.634 basically understood where I came from You know one of the i've suffered migraines 00:05:04.634 --> 00:05:08.369 all my life and we were talking about different things and I said to her We're 00:05:08.369 --> 00:05:11.509 talking about traumas and then I said, you know, I've suffered migraines all my life. 00:05:11.509 --> 00:05:14.399 And she looked at me, she nodded and she says, of course you have. 00:05:14.719 --> 00:05:17.059 Like she knew where that came from. 00:05:17.069 --> 00:05:17.619 You know what I mean? 00:05:18.219 --> 00:05:18.919 And so, yeah. 00:05:18.919 --> 00:05:25.799 And it just gave me this real sense of maybe like emotional safety around her. 00:05:26.489 --> 00:05:29.059 Anyway, that's the, that's the human side of the achievement thing. 00:05:29.069 --> 00:05:29.859 But let's talk about. 00:05:30.469 --> 00:05:33.829 The horse side of the attunement thing, and you know, this attunement 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.609 is really about connection with horses, but for me, it's not about 00:05:37.610 --> 00:05:39.899 the connection for connection's sake. 00:05:40.449 --> 00:05:43.319 It's not that I want to connect with the horses. 00:05:43.489 --> 00:05:47.899 I think a lot of people really get excited about the connection stuff because it 00:05:47.939 --> 00:05:52.199 gives them the warm and fuzzies and my horse will love me or whatever, but 00:05:52.709 --> 00:05:58.199 really the connection of the attunement stuff is about the horse feeling safe. 00:05:58.804 --> 00:06:05.934 Safe with us, safe in the environment, and I think the reason this stuff works 00:06:05.944 --> 00:06:09.804 so well with horses is because you don't have to be a terribly good horse trainer 00:06:10.384 --> 00:06:17.474 to, or rider, to train or ride a horse that feels safe in your presence, with 00:06:17.474 --> 00:06:19.214 your decisions, and in the environment. 00:06:19.244 --> 00:06:22.314 Most, most people that have problems with horses are dealing 00:06:22.314 --> 00:06:25.594 with a dysregulated nervous system. 00:06:26.544 --> 00:06:30.054 Problem that turns into rearing, backing, bolting, pulling 00:06:30.054 --> 00:06:31.174 back, running over, whatever. 00:06:31.184 --> 00:06:35.734 All those things for me, they're a fallout of not feeling safe. 00:06:36.724 --> 00:06:42.244 And I might go into explain why I feel attunement makes horses feel safe. 00:06:43.664 --> 00:06:46.234 And, you know, this is all conjecture. 00:06:46.559 --> 00:06:52.349 This is my take on the whole thing, but I feel what the, the, the, you 00:06:52.349 --> 00:06:54.809 know, if you go into a pasture with a group of horses and you catch 00:06:54.809 --> 00:06:55.939 one, you take him away from there. 00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:59.369 Sometimes people will take their horse out of a pasture and now he starts running 00:06:59.369 --> 00:07:02.119 around in circles, screaming his head off, wanting to go back to his friends. 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:04.709 And I feel, you know, most people when that. 00:07:05.174 --> 00:07:08.694 They mentioned that I'll say, well, why does he want to go back to his friends? 00:07:08.704 --> 00:07:10.264 And they go, well, he likes hanging with me. 00:07:10.264 --> 00:07:11.124 He feels safe there. 00:07:11.124 --> 00:07:14.424 And I'm like, yes, but what, what is the sense of safety he 00:07:14.424 --> 00:07:16.044 gets from being with his friends? 00:07:16.044 --> 00:07:19.154 And I don't feel the sense of safety gets from being his friends with 00:07:19.154 --> 00:07:21.144 his friends is a physical safety. 00:07:21.424 --> 00:07:25.654 It's not like two of his friends go to kickboxing classes on Wednesday nights. 00:07:25.654 --> 00:07:28.114 And so if the saber to tiger shows up, they're going to drop, kick 00:07:28.114 --> 00:07:29.294 him in the head sort of thing. 00:07:29.854 --> 00:07:31.444 What I feel. 00:07:32.019 --> 00:07:35.939 It that horse, the sense of safety horses get from other horses 00:07:35.979 --> 00:07:38.199 is there's a shared awareness. 00:07:38.229 --> 00:07:42.359 So I don't have to stand and look 360 degrees for, you know, I don't have to 00:07:42.369 --> 00:07:45.099 be alert and look 360 degrees for danger. 00:07:45.109 --> 00:07:47.309 I could have my head down grazing. 00:07:47.999 --> 00:07:49.199 And if you think about. 00:07:49.749 --> 00:07:53.249 Let's say there's five horses, let's go with four horses in, you know, 00:07:53.329 --> 00:07:56.919 like out in a pasture and let's call them North, South, East and West. 00:07:57.379 --> 00:08:00.759 And they're grazing and if the horse on the North side notices something 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:04.169 while he's grazing, his posture will change and his energy will change. 00:08:04.169 --> 00:08:07.049 So his head will pop up and his body will get a little more tense than it was. 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.129 And the other horses will feel that energetic change and see that postural 00:08:11.619 --> 00:08:15.109 change and they'll be alerted to the fact there may be some danger. 00:08:15.979 --> 00:08:17.599 And so their heads will pop up and they're like, what are you looking at? 00:08:17.999 --> 00:08:20.399 And then he, you know, he. 00:08:21.794 --> 00:08:24.254 Summarizes the situation or he analyzes the situation. 00:08:24.254 --> 00:08:26.714 You kind of guess I'm okay and he goes back to relax and they 00:08:26.714 --> 00:08:27.934 go Okay, we're all good again. 00:08:28.354 --> 00:08:33.734 So I feel like this is conversation that goes on both posturally and 00:08:33.734 --> 00:08:37.974 energetically in a herd of horses and 00:08:40.574 --> 00:08:44.414 You know, it's, it's the ability for every other horse in the herd 00:08:44.774 --> 00:08:53.164 to recognize danger and communicate that that makes the others feel safe. 00:08:53.194 --> 00:08:55.544 And this is where it comes down to like, you know, what I've learned from 00:08:55.544 --> 00:08:58.304 you about hunter gatherers I've had. 00:08:58.954 --> 00:09:02.544 Several different people who really get horses explain that they're 00:09:02.544 --> 00:09:05.444 just like hunter gatherers, you know, everybody has a job to do. 00:09:06.694 --> 00:09:09.814 Everybody has a role to play and the one that plays that role is the 00:09:09.824 --> 00:09:12.424 best one in the herd for that role. 00:09:12.434 --> 00:09:15.834 And this is where we get into thinking that there is you 00:09:15.834 --> 00:09:16.734 know, there's a hierarchy. 00:09:16.734 --> 00:09:19.684 There's a number one, a number two, a number three, which is not, that's, 00:09:19.704 --> 00:09:24.654 you know, that's really been debunked, but You know, one of the things that 00:09:24.664 --> 00:09:28.914 one of those people I'm talking about has explained to me is that horses 00:09:28.914 --> 00:09:36.104 are always Testing other horses with positions in the herd and they're always 00:09:36.124 --> 00:09:40.694 testing them to make sure that they are still the best Horse for that job. 00:09:40.694 --> 00:09:47.824 So it's a it's a it's a care for versus a power over dynamic That horse is in 00:09:47.824 --> 00:09:51.374 that that leadership role, whatever it might be might be sentinel might be 00:09:51.384 --> 00:09:58.084 whatever They're in that role because they have the attributes needed for that 00:09:58.084 --> 00:10:03.004 role and the other the other members of the herd keep Testing them to see if 00:10:03.004 --> 00:10:06.914 they're still the best horse for that role And but like I said, they're in 00:10:06.914 --> 00:10:11.524 that role out of a care for you know They they are in that role for the good of 00:10:11.524 --> 00:10:13.414 everybody not for the good of themselves. 00:10:13.824 --> 00:10:22.874 It's not a power over role and You know, so being aware, just being aware of 00:10:22.874 --> 00:10:26.404 things, I think is, is the, the thing that other horses are looking for. 00:10:26.634 --> 00:10:31.664 So when you attune with a horse, when you work on this attunement stuff, which 00:10:32.104 --> 00:10:35.934 you have to be very present to do, and you have to be in the moment all the 00:10:35.934 --> 00:10:38.824 time and communicating your awareness of being in the moment all the time. 00:10:39.664 --> 00:10:41.704 I think that's what makes them feel safe when you, you know, 00:10:41.714 --> 00:10:46.674 when, and I've had experiences over the years at clinics that like. 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:51.629 This is the Holy Grail right here. 00:10:51.629 --> 00:10:56.139 And I guess I'll probably tell you the first one because this is where I 00:10:56.239 --> 00:10:59.799 really started to understand it, but I'd really started thinking about things 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:07.059 a bit differently and maybe working on something that was back then, what, 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:10.369 the beginnings of what was attunement, but I had no idea what I was doing, but 00:11:10.369 --> 00:11:15.089 I was, I was at a clinic in Texas and this lady had a Mustang at this clinic 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:17.679 who he has a random bolting issue. 00:11:17.689 --> 00:11:18.969 He's at nine years old. 00:11:18.969 --> 00:11:20.259 He's been out of the wild for six years. 00:11:20.789 --> 00:11:24.299 He's been ridden for six years, but he has this random bolting issue. 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:29.289 And it's usually not the same thing twice that causes it and something 00:11:29.289 --> 00:11:32.839 that bothers him One time that makes him bolt doesn't make him bolt the 00:11:32.839 --> 00:11:37.519 next time and you know the lady and the trainer really at the wit's end. 00:11:38.369 --> 00:11:42.309 And this was a three day clinic and I don't know why, cause I usually do two day 00:11:42.309 --> 00:11:43.609 clinics, but this is a three day clinic. 00:11:43.609 --> 00:11:47.039 And the first day of the clinic, I don't even remember this horse. 00:11:47.119 --> 00:11:49.839 And at the time I would have a morning group and afternoon group. 00:11:49.839 --> 00:11:54.119 So I have 12 people in my clinics and I used to have a morning group and afternoon 00:11:54.119 --> 00:11:55.299 group, and she was in the morning group. 00:11:55.349 --> 00:11:57.549 I don't remember this horse the first day of the clinic. 00:11:58.464 --> 00:12:00.894 The second day of the clinic, and she did some groundwork the first 00:12:00.894 --> 00:12:02.754 day, but nothing amazing happened. 00:12:02.764 --> 00:12:06.524 The second day of the clinic, she was doing some groundwork with a horse 00:12:06.584 --> 00:12:09.304 and she went to walk down beside him. 00:12:09.304 --> 00:12:13.284 So from in front of him, down the side of him, and she's going to ask him to just 00:12:13.484 --> 00:12:16.814 yield his hind end over, just step across his hind legs, just step over behind. 00:12:17.484 --> 00:12:20.204 And when she went to do that, she went to walk down beside him, he 00:12:20.204 --> 00:12:22.084 turned his head and blocked her. 00:12:22.914 --> 00:12:25.234 And she said to me, Hey, and he did it repeatedly. 00:12:25.234 --> 00:12:26.074 And she said to me. 00:12:26.329 --> 00:12:28.529 Hey, this horse keeps blocking me with his head. 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:29.509 What should I do? 00:12:30.499 --> 00:12:31.489 And I said, Oh, well, let me try. 00:12:31.489 --> 00:12:34.059 So I stood in front of him and I went to walk down beside him. 00:12:34.059 --> 00:12:39.279 And as I stepped to go around his head, he turned his head and he blocked me. 00:12:39.609 --> 00:12:41.949 So it was almost like he was trying to keep me in his right eye. 00:12:41.959 --> 00:12:43.719 Like I was in front of him, I'm in both eyes. 00:12:43.719 --> 00:12:45.579 And as I went to walk down that side, it was almost like he was trying 00:12:45.579 --> 00:12:46.699 to keep me out of his left eye. 00:12:47.089 --> 00:12:50.749 And in the past, I would have just reached my hand under his jaw. 00:12:51.429 --> 00:12:54.749 Moved his head over and then proceeded down that side, but there was 00:12:54.749 --> 00:12:59.849 something I don't know There was some sort of intuition said don't do that 00:13:00.514 --> 00:13:04.014 Actually step back and acknowledge the fact that he turned his head. 00:13:04.184 --> 00:13:06.584 So he said no in a very subtle way. 00:13:06.604 --> 00:13:08.404 I could have walked around his head very easily. 00:13:08.404 --> 00:13:11.484 He wouldn't have lunged at me or shoulder charged me or anything. 00:13:11.494 --> 00:13:13.204 He would have just let me walk around him. 00:13:14.034 --> 00:13:14.434 But I didn't. 00:13:14.434 --> 00:13:16.904 I stepped backwards, back to where I'd came from. 00:13:17.739 --> 00:13:18.839 And his head straightened up. 00:13:18.839 --> 00:13:22.059 And then I waited for him to show some sign of relaxing a little bit more. 00:13:22.059 --> 00:13:22.349 I don't know. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.329 It's not something as big as a lick and a chew. 00:13:24.349 --> 00:13:26.009 Maybe his ears started to move a bit. 00:13:26.009 --> 00:13:27.279 Maybe his eyes started to blink. 00:13:27.289 --> 00:13:30.129 Cause as you'd know, you know, when the horses get tense, the 00:13:30.129 --> 00:13:31.649 rate of blinking slows down. 00:13:31.649 --> 00:13:33.029 So maybe he started to blink a bit more. 00:13:33.029 --> 00:13:33.459 I'm not sure. 00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:35.019 Then I tried it again. 00:13:35.059 --> 00:13:37.659 I went to step over there and he blocked me with his head. 00:13:37.749 --> 00:13:40.249 So I stepped back again and this went on for five or 10 minutes. 00:13:41.219 --> 00:13:42.329 I had no idea what I was doing. 00:13:42.909 --> 00:13:46.459 But after five or 10 minutes, I can, I know he now doesn't block me up. 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:48.409 So I go to walk down his side. 00:13:48.409 --> 00:13:51.099 He doesn't block me up and he's been ridden for six years. 00:13:51.129 --> 00:13:53.519 So I figured you can settle him, which means you can touch him. 00:13:53.789 --> 00:13:56.539 And so I just thought, I'm just going to put my hand on his withering 00:13:56.889 --> 00:13:58.639 and gauge his reaction to that. 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:01.469 And I was closely watching his head and his ears and his eyes. 00:14:02.079 --> 00:14:03.959 And as I went to put my hand on his wither. 00:14:04.509 --> 00:14:06.159 His head raised up, just half an inch. 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.059 He just tensed very slightly. 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:09.729 And so, oops, I took my hand away. 00:14:09.729 --> 00:14:10.279 I said, sorry. 00:14:10.739 --> 00:14:12.879 And I waited till he relaxed again, I tried it again, and I probably 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:14.199 did that for five or ten minutes. 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:16.189 I have no idea why I was doing it, but I did it. 00:14:17.469 --> 00:14:20.729 And then pretty soon I can put my hand on his wither and he doesn't, he 00:14:20.729 --> 00:14:22.649 doesn't get the slightest bit tense. 00:14:22.989 --> 00:14:27.619 And so then I said to her, now I'm going to ask him to step over behind, ask him 00:14:27.619 --> 00:14:30.569 to step over behind, he's been trained perfectly well to do it, and he just 00:14:30.689 --> 00:14:34.939 yielded his hind end over, and I said to her, you know what, you've been riding 00:14:34.939 --> 00:14:39.329 for six years, and that's a very basic exercise, I think he's probably sick of 00:14:39.329 --> 00:14:44.339 you drilling him on it, I think that's why he, why he was blocking your way out. 00:14:44.839 --> 00:14:45.719 And I'll prove it to you. 00:14:45.769 --> 00:14:48.229 So I'm going to go back to the front of him, and then if he lets 00:14:48.249 --> 00:14:50.809 me come down his side, I'm going to ask him to step over behind. 00:14:51.229 --> 00:14:53.630 Then I'm going to go back to the front, and if he lets me come down his side, 00:14:53.630 --> 00:14:54.759 I'm going to ask him to step over behind. 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.119 I'm going to keep doing it, and after three or four of those, he's 00:14:57.119 --> 00:15:00.429 going to go, Nah, I'm sick of you and your stepping over behind. 00:15:00.869 --> 00:15:03.939 So I went back to the front, walked down the side, he let me, 00:15:03.979 --> 00:15:04.999 I asked him to step over behind. 00:15:05.129 --> 00:15:09.529 I did it 10 times in a row, and he didn't block me out, he let me do it. 00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:12.829 So now my hypothesis is blown out of the water. 00:15:13.179 --> 00:15:17.769 I'm like, I have no idea why he was blocking us out because he's 00:15:17.779 --> 00:15:19.409 not now and I can't break it. 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:21.059 So yeah, no idea. 00:15:21.869 --> 00:15:24.719 So I handed him back to her and I said, just, she said, what do you want me to do? 00:15:24.719 --> 00:15:25.759 And I said, I'll just hang out with him. 00:15:26.439 --> 00:15:29.059 So she kind of stood there with him and I went and helped somebody else. 00:15:29.059 --> 00:15:30.499 And about 10 minutes later. 00:15:31.069 --> 00:15:34.889 There was this collective this gasp from everybody there, and I turned 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:38.779 and looked, and this horse has buckled at the knees, dropped to his belly 00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:42.359 on the ground, and started, like, snoring little dust clouds in the dirt. 00:15:42.749 --> 00:15:46.469 And then he lay on his side, had a big ol roll, rolled over both ways, 00:15:46.479 --> 00:15:50.349 stood up, had a big ol shake, and then Down he went again, and fell 00:15:50.349 --> 00:15:53.949 asleep, sound asleep, and he slept till lunchtime, and that was probably 00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:56.399 ten o'clock in the morning by then. 00:15:56.859 --> 00:16:00.679 So he slept for two hours, with loudspeakers going off, and whatever. 00:16:01.319 --> 00:16:05.599 Other horses riding around, and I said, does he normally lay down that much? 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.899 And she said, I've seen him lay down once in six years. 00:16:10.154 --> 00:16:15.304 And I was like, wow, anyway, so then we had, she had to wake him up when 00:16:15.304 --> 00:16:17.444 that group was done at lunchtime for the other group to come in. 00:16:17.444 --> 00:16:19.894 So the next morning she brings him back in the last day of the clinic. 00:16:19.894 --> 00:16:21.284 And she said, what do you want me to do with him? 00:16:21.284 --> 00:16:23.154 And I said, stand there with him. 00:16:23.174 --> 00:16:24.114 Let's just see what happens. 00:16:24.754 --> 00:16:27.444 She stood there with him about 20 minutes later, boom, down he went, 00:16:27.594 --> 00:16:30.454 laid flat on his side for four hours. 00:16:31.584 --> 00:16:32.614 Didn't get up for four hours. 00:16:32.624 --> 00:16:33.264 Slept the whole time. 00:16:33.264 --> 00:16:35.074 We actually had to wake him up to get him out of the arena again. 00:16:35.984 --> 00:16:39.024 And she went home from that clinic and she said he slept for a week. 00:16:39.064 --> 00:16:42.864 And so I knew, I knew something had happened. 00:16:43.084 --> 00:16:44.754 I didn't know why it had happened. 00:16:45.334 --> 00:16:48.664 But I knew something, I could, this horse has laid down once in six years 00:16:49.084 --> 00:16:54.994 and now he's laying in an arena at a clinic with a crowd and loudspeakers. 00:16:55.544 --> 00:16:59.159 So I came home and I, I started looking up the internet, sleeping habits of 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.409 horses, because I knew horses can sleep standing up or laying down, but what I 00:17:02.409 --> 00:17:10.989 didn't realize at the time is they need to lay down to get REM sleep, okay? 00:17:11.239 --> 00:17:17.939 Standing up is just a light dozing, but laying down, they have to, they have 00:17:17.939 --> 00:17:21.499 to lay down to get this deep, the deep restorative sleep that we all need. 00:17:22.139 --> 00:17:26.689 And we know in humans, if they don't get enough REM sleep, they're 00:17:26.689 --> 00:17:29.499 either irritable or anxious. 00:17:29.499 --> 00:17:29.549 Thanks. 00:17:30.049 --> 00:17:34.299 What would, what might cause random bolting in a horse 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:36.189 is just unresolved anxiety. 00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:40.629 Anyway, it turned out he never bolted once after that clinic. 00:17:42.449 --> 00:17:44.729 And, you know, first it was six months out. 00:17:44.739 --> 00:17:45.599 She said he didn't bolt. 00:17:45.629 --> 00:17:47.079 Then a year out, she said he hadn't bolted. 00:17:47.089 --> 00:17:50.679 Then two years out and he just passed away four or five months 00:17:50.679 --> 00:17:51.779 ago, maybe middle of last year. 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.509 And it had been five years, I think, since that clinic that he hadn't bolted. 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.739 So I knew something had happened then. 00:17:59.849 --> 00:18:00.249 And. 00:18:01.589 --> 00:18:05.739 After reading the sleep thing, I realized, okay, in order for a horse to lay down 00:18:05.739 --> 00:18:08.869 and sleep prone, they have to feel safe. 00:18:08.869 --> 00:18:14.699 There has to be another horse standing guard and aware. 00:18:15.189 --> 00:18:20.659 And so if you think about what happened when he turned his head, when I said, I 00:18:20.779 --> 00:18:24.139 notice you turn your head and I notice you're slightly concerned and I'm going 00:18:24.139 --> 00:18:25.569 to step back and give you some time. 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:27.449 That's that attunement thing. 00:18:27.789 --> 00:18:30.659 You know, I basically said, yeah, I get what you're telling me. 00:18:31.169 --> 00:18:34.729 And that made him feel safe enough to lay down and have a sleep. 00:18:34.729 --> 00:18:37.119 And I had a, you know, you've spent lots of time in Africa. 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:42.459 I had an experience a few years before that in Kenya that I I'd 00:18:42.469 --> 00:18:46.959 witnessed that was still in the back of my mind that really. 00:18:47.459 --> 00:18:48.509 Added to that too. 00:18:48.509 --> 00:18:52.964 And I, I stand at this place in Kenya that was surrounded by 3000 acres of, of 00:18:55.879 --> 00:18:57.949 undeveloped land, and there was herds of zebras there. 00:18:57.949 --> 00:19:00.489 So I'd be working with horses in the arena, and you could 00:19:00.489 --> 00:19:01.569 see this herd of zebras. 00:19:01.569 --> 00:19:04.089 And in the morning, I'd get up and out of the house and go for a walk 00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:05.439 and look at the zebras and stuff. 00:19:05.439 --> 00:19:09.999 And I noticed that, you know, as you're walking towards, and they're, all 00:19:09.999 --> 00:19:11.589 their heads are down there grazing. 00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:15.429 And when one notices you, his head pops up and then they all, they all stop grazing. 00:19:15.429 --> 00:19:16.119 Their heads pop up. 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:17.589 And if you just stand there for a while, they'll. 00:19:19.179 --> 00:19:22.169 Go back down to grazing, but what I also noticed too was that 00:19:24.469 --> 00:19:27.809 Certain times of the day, some of those zebra would lay down and sleep, and the 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.809 other ones would kind of stand in a big rough circle around them, and no one 00:19:31.809 --> 00:19:33.979 grazed while the zebras were sleeping. 00:19:34.899 --> 00:19:38.819 They were standing, they weren't, they were aware, but they weren't alert. 00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:44.259 They didn't have alert postures, they had relaxed postures, but we Aware, and 00:19:44.259 --> 00:19:50.779 I realized that those ones in the middle who are sleeping totally comfortable 00:19:50.789 --> 00:19:55.869 with the security of the awareness of the ones who were standing around. 00:19:56.089 --> 00:19:59.409 And so I'd, I'd kind of witnessed this without even realizing what I was seeing. 00:19:59.409 --> 00:20:02.899 And then later on, when that horse had that sleep at the clinic, 00:20:02.899 --> 00:20:05.029 I realized that's what I did. 00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:07.609 I told him that I'm a two legged, who's aware. 00:20:07.649 --> 00:20:09.929 I noticed little things and I don't have an agenda. 00:20:10.439 --> 00:20:13.419 Like when he turned his head, I didn't say, I noticed you turn your head, but 00:20:13.419 --> 00:20:14.829 I want to walk down the side of you. 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.669 So I'm either going to push your head out of the way or walk around it. 00:20:18.159 --> 00:20:22.329 I stepped back and said, Hey, I, not only do I see that, but 00:20:22.329 --> 00:20:24.519 I get that you're saying no. 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.719 I don't understand why you're saying no, but I know that you're saying no. 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.209 And so I'm going to wait here till you feel better about. 00:20:33.774 --> 00:20:34.984 Me approaching you again. 00:20:35.284 --> 00:20:39.864 So that was the start of the whole, that was the start of the whole thing 00:20:39.864 --> 00:20:45.794 but I really feel that for me the attunement stuff is about making them 00:20:45.794 --> 00:20:54.084 feel safe and the making them feel safe around us basically takes away 00:20:54.294 --> 00:20:57.774 all the problem behaviors a lot of people, you know, deal with with horses. 00:20:58.699 --> 00:21:01.669 Rupert Isaacson: No, I would agree and it's funny as you're, as you're telling me 00:21:01.669 --> 00:21:07.769 the story, I'm looking at my screensaver, which is a photograph I took in Namibia 00:21:07.779 --> 00:21:14.909 a year and a half ago, and it's of two young lions playing, roughhousing, and 00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:21.479 in the middle ground behind them, there's some sentinel zebra watching them. 00:21:23.489 --> 00:21:27.559 Behind those sentinel zebra are some other zebras who are grazing quite 00:21:27.679 --> 00:21:33.309 contentedly, even though these lions are Full of action and their mums, by 00:21:33.309 --> 00:21:36.539 the way, that, that, that they're big enough to participate in the hunt. 00:21:36.549 --> 00:21:40.259 They're not cub cubs, but they're maybe, you know, three quarters 00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:44.469 grown and their mums are also there and would rush in to make a kill if 00:21:44.469 --> 00:21:45.769 there was something opportunistic. 00:21:45.959 --> 00:21:50.419 And then behind the zebras are a bunch of springbok who are completely unconcerned 00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:53.699 because the zebra are looking out for it. 00:21:53.709 --> 00:21:57.539 And my horses I mean, I'm lucky I can keep them all in a herd. 00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:00.599 So, and they're very established, long established herd. 00:22:00.909 --> 00:22:06.629 So that they spend the night in a large area where they can come in under shelter 00:22:07.469 --> 00:22:10.659 get out of the rain get out of The wind it's winter in Germany right now, but 00:22:10.659 --> 00:22:13.769 then in the mid in the day, they'll just take themselves out into the field 00:22:13.770 --> 00:22:20.434 and The first thing that will happen Is they'll take shifts to lie down and 00:22:20.434 --> 00:22:24.974 sleep because they probably won't have slept like that in the nighttime because 00:22:25.884 --> 00:22:27.574 Maybe they're alert for predators. 00:22:27.574 --> 00:22:30.254 Maybe there's you know, and there's all sorts of stuff around them There's 00:22:30.444 --> 00:22:33.754 wild boar that come around and this and that but they will always take 00:22:33.764 --> 00:22:38.564 that opportunity and it's funny and I've Instinctively learned I don't 00:22:38.574 --> 00:22:39.974 mess with them when they're doing that. 00:22:40.294 --> 00:22:44.654 So sometimes if I need to work that horse Well, I'm not working that 00:22:44.654 --> 00:22:48.394 horse if he's lying down and sleeping And it's a really interesting thing. 00:22:48.404 --> 00:22:53.459 It's it's really instinctive No more than I would wake a friend. 00:22:54.504 --> 00:22:58.434 Unless there was some really, really pressing reason. 00:22:59.284 --> 00:23:01.804 But just because I want to put a saddle on his back, well I can wait. 00:23:02.394 --> 00:23:04.854 However, there's a couple of questions that come up with 00:23:04.854 --> 00:23:06.094 that story that you told. 00:23:06.344 --> 00:23:12.004 I think the one really natural question is, it's not It's related 00:23:12.004 --> 00:23:13.094 to the attunement, but it's, 00:23:15.234 --> 00:23:17.204 it's, why do you think the horse was blocking it? 00:23:19.254 --> 00:23:21.864 Why was there a no in that particular moment? 00:23:21.864 --> 00:23:23.224 What's your surmise? 00:23:23.574 --> 00:23:27.584 Why do you think it was important to him to say no to that thing? 00:23:28.124 --> 00:23:31.464 Because it's, it was an interesting and rather perplexing 00:23:31.464 --> 00:23:32.574 thing for him to say no to. 00:23:32.574 --> 00:23:35.574 You know, there's other more obvious things a horse might say no to. 00:23:35.874 --> 00:23:38.554 That one seems interesting to me. 00:23:38.554 --> 00:23:40.094 What, what do you think was going on there? 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.459 Warwick Schiller: Well, it was a very subtle no because it would 00:23:44.459 --> 00:23:47.329 have taken two steps just to walk around it You know, he's just 00:23:47.669 --> 00:23:50.559 turned it wasn't even 45 degrees. 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:56.649 Rupert Isaacson: You think it was just an desire to Field test some form of self 00:23:56.649 --> 00:23:59.179 expression and just see if he could I 00:23:59.219 --> 00:23:59.479 Warwick Schiller: well I 00:23:59.489 --> 00:24:01.449 Rupert Isaacson: do think more fuzzing. 00:24:01.929 --> 00:24:03.179 Warwick Schiller: I don't know That's not I don't think that's 00:24:03.679 --> 00:24:04.869 anthropomorphizing at all. 00:24:05.389 --> 00:24:06.459 So let me tell you a story. 00:24:06.459 --> 00:24:09.249 I've got a horse named Bundy I think you met Bundy when you were 00:24:09.249 --> 00:24:13.094 here Bundy's quite orally fixated. 00:24:13.094 --> 00:24:16.244 You know, he's a, he's a cribber cause he broke a, broke a bone in his foot 00:24:16.274 --> 00:24:20.414 when he was young and had to spend three months in a stall in a cast. 00:24:20.414 --> 00:24:21.634 He couldn't even be hand walked. 00:24:21.634 --> 00:24:22.964 And so he's very busy minded. 00:24:22.964 --> 00:24:26.724 So he, he learned to crib when he was there and he lives, you know, he's lived 00:24:26.724 --> 00:24:30.344 in a pasture with other horses for about 10 years and still, still crib, still wind 00:24:30.344 --> 00:24:35.234 sucks, you know, but for about six years. 00:24:35.754 --> 00:24:39.344 Every time I went to put the halter on him, he would grab the nose band 00:24:39.344 --> 00:24:43.664 of his mouth and chew on, and I would get, let me have that thing. 00:24:43.664 --> 00:24:46.344 And I just gently pulled it out of his mouth and then put it on. 00:24:46.884 --> 00:24:49.484 But then when I started thinking about things differently 00:24:49.484 --> 00:24:52.954 and, and horses testing us, 00:24:55.154 --> 00:24:56.394 I thought I'm going to try and experiment. 00:24:56.394 --> 00:24:59.374 So I went to catch him one day, I went to put the halter on and he got the nose band 00:24:59.374 --> 00:25:00.744 in his mouth and I just let him chew it. 00:25:01.394 --> 00:25:01.494 I just 00:25:01.494 --> 00:25:02.904 Warwick Schiller: stood there and I just let him chew it. 00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:06.979 Then he chewed it for a couple of minutes and then spat it out and when I put the 00:25:06.979 --> 00:25:08.259 holter on he didn't try to chew it again. 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.529 Okay, so the next day, same thing, I let him chew it. 00:25:12.699 --> 00:25:14.689 The next day, same thing, I let him chew it. 00:25:14.709 --> 00:25:20.589 Anyway, he did that for four days in a row and I waited for as long as he felt 00:25:20.589 --> 00:25:22.189 the need to chew on that nose bend. 00:25:23.159 --> 00:25:24.669 The fifth day I went to put it on. 00:25:25.014 --> 00:25:26.584 He didn't do it the sixth day. 00:25:26.584 --> 00:25:29.174 The seventh day didn't do it for another two years. 00:25:30.654 --> 00:25:34.774 And I, I really feel observing things like that. 00:25:34.774 --> 00:25:41.234 It's like, I think these horses are always testing us not to be testy, but like, 00:25:41.314 --> 00:25:43.184 who are you, are you the obedient guy? 00:25:43.244 --> 00:25:44.154 Are you the patient guy? 00:25:44.304 --> 00:25:47.144 I, I don't care who you are. 00:25:47.424 --> 00:25:51.014 I would just like to know who you are because then I can base 00:25:51.014 --> 00:25:54.564 my interactions on, on, on that. 00:25:55.249 --> 00:25:58.609 And so, but I feel like that's what that horse was doing when he 00:25:58.609 --> 00:26:01.179 turned his head, like, I'm going to just do the little test thing. 00:26:01.179 --> 00:26:03.589 And if you just walk around me and you know, I think it's, are 00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:05.149 you paying attention or not? 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.199 Are you how aware are you? 00:26:07.199 --> 00:26:11.429 I really feel like a lot of things horses do asking questions of. 00:26:11.889 --> 00:26:13.189 How aware are you? 00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:18.879 Because they're looking for, you know, they're looking for, you know, 00:26:18.879 --> 00:26:22.149 I think the nervous system's looking for homeostasis and they want to 00:26:22.149 --> 00:26:25.549 know, are you aware enough for me to completely relax around you? 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:27.589 You were talking about your screensaver 00:26:27.589 --> 00:26:28.529 Rupert Isaacson: there. 00:26:28.609 --> 00:26:30.699 Warwick Schiller: A really interesting happened, thing happened 00:26:30.789 --> 00:26:32.299 at that same place in Kenya. 00:26:32.709 --> 00:26:35.939 There was this male wildebeest who lived kind of outside the arena there. 00:26:35.939 --> 00:26:41.139 And I looked up wildebeest after I got back there and 00:26:41.139 --> 00:26:43.654 and when I got back from there, Cause I want to know more about him. 00:26:43.654 --> 00:26:46.844 And I realized that the male wildebeest territorial. 00:26:47.334 --> 00:26:51.344 And so if they can, you know, they'll occupy a certain piece of land. 00:26:51.344 --> 00:26:54.214 And if that land's got good water and food, the cows will come 00:26:55.004 --> 00:26:57.854 to him and they will, you know, they'll fight over boundaries. 00:26:57.914 --> 00:26:59.674 Anyway, so this guy, he's solitary. 00:27:00.284 --> 00:27:03.554 And every time I see him laying down, he was laying up, laying down up 00:27:03.554 --> 00:27:07.174 against like some camel thorn bushes or something, something protective. 00:27:07.564 --> 00:27:09.064 So he only had to look in one direction. 00:27:09.110 --> 00:27:15.229 I noticed that every day, but then one day the zebra were all up closer to the 00:27:15.229 --> 00:27:21.549 house there and he ended up in their big circle while some were sleeping. 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:24.469 And it's the only time I saw him lay down where his back wasn't 00:27:24.489 --> 00:27:26.069 up against something protective. 00:27:26.699 --> 00:27:30.969 There was no camel thorn bush or whatever it was he was laying up against. 00:27:30.969 --> 00:27:35.969 And I'm like, Oh, he's using the, he doesn't need to, to lay up 00:27:35.969 --> 00:27:40.379 against something to have a little nap because the zebra are going to. 00:27:40.909 --> 00:27:41.959 Be the sentinels. 00:27:41.959 --> 00:27:44.989 And you just said those springboks in the background were grazing away 00:27:44.989 --> 00:27:47.499 because there's, it's something 00:27:47.499 --> 00:27:50.169 Rupert Isaacson: I've often wondered with the way we keep horses these 00:27:50.169 --> 00:27:54.079 days, you know, when I was growing up we almost always mixed cows and sheep 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:58.629 with horses and we did it largely actually for pasturage reasons. 00:27:58.629 --> 00:28:00.349 It makes your pastures better, blah, blah, blah. 00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:02.459 And it's also good. 00:28:02.489 --> 00:28:07.079 The horse is just no other animals, but I've noticed that that has 00:28:08.149 --> 00:28:10.119 gradually disappeared as the norm. 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:10.749 You see it. 00:28:11.269 --> 00:28:17.589 Sometimes, now, but you used to see, it used to be just the norm, and I do 00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:22.529 wonder if when horses are doing that kind of thing with us, there is a 00:28:22.529 --> 00:28:24.419 sort of automatic cross species thing. 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:29.069 That is built into pretty much all those big herbivores that they're 00:28:29.069 --> 00:28:35.969 supposed to hang out together They're supposed to Go a bit cross species. 00:28:35.969 --> 00:28:40.759 So for example in you know, I've got Lusitano horses and in their wild 00:28:40.769 --> 00:28:46.559 state They would have been in big herds with lots of wild cattle in those big 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:51.309 marshlands where the Targus River or the Guadalquivir River come out to the 00:28:51.309 --> 00:28:56.964 sea and they would have Buddied up like the African animals do cross species 00:28:57.014 --> 00:29:03.064 because even up to about the 6th century AD of the common era There were lion 00:29:03.494 --> 00:29:08.144 in southern Iberia and most of southern Europe not just wolf, but big cats. 00:29:08.154 --> 00:29:11.569 So Just like the African things they're hanging out and they've got, 00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:14.079 you know, there are the wild cows. 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.074 They're quite aggressive Very territorial, carry these little, like 00:29:18.084 --> 00:29:21.624 African Cape Buffalo, they, you know, carry these territories around them. 00:29:21.914 --> 00:29:24.734 If you cross inadvertently over that, they'll attack you. 00:29:24.974 --> 00:29:28.494 But if you step outside, just one step, they'll leave you alone again. 00:29:28.724 --> 00:29:31.994 You can imagine the horses were just constantly, you know, testing, 00:29:32.034 --> 00:29:34.694 going over those boundaries and having to sort of zip sideways. 00:29:34.694 --> 00:29:37.734 And then everyone's accommodating everyone else and trying to say, you know. 00:29:37.934 --> 00:29:38.554 Are we all right? 00:29:38.594 --> 00:29:39.404 Are you okay? 00:29:39.654 --> 00:29:42.424 But we all want to be together because we know we're safer together. 00:29:42.424 --> 00:29:44.824 And now here we are keeping them in isolation. 00:29:45.414 --> 00:29:50.694 But here we are presenting them with a cross species opportunity, which 00:29:50.694 --> 00:29:52.734 is presumably built into the DNA. 00:29:53.484 --> 00:29:59.834 Why wouldn't they bring those behaviors, ancestral behaviors, out to us? 00:29:59.834 --> 00:30:04.954 And then equally, how could we in our modern state possibly recognize them? 00:30:05.414 --> 00:30:10.094 Because we are so far removed from that way of life ourselves. 00:30:10.594 --> 00:30:13.794 And then it, we're sort of blind leading blind and then we end up with 00:30:13.894 --> 00:30:19.274 pathological behaviors that everyone's misunderstanding everybody, perhaps. 00:30:21.054 --> 00:30:24.674 Something which I wanted to ask you about that business of the sleeping. 00:30:26.029 --> 00:30:31.309 Most people these days do not have the luxury, unfortunately, of keeping 00:30:31.309 --> 00:30:32.849 their horses in herd situations. 00:30:32.869 --> 00:30:36.659 I wish it were not, you know, I wish it were otherwise, but 00:30:36.659 --> 00:30:37.839 it's, it's just how it is. 00:30:38.229 --> 00:30:44.309 And I sometimes get sad when I'm at Horse exposed and that sort of thing 00:30:44.309 --> 00:30:46.959 and you hear people say, oh you've got to keep your horse in the herd And if 00:30:46.959 --> 00:30:50.219 you don't know and they're often like people from Wyoming or whatever and 00:30:50.229 --> 00:30:54.359 like dude Well, you've got the state of Wyoming, you know But yeah, if you're 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.999 in the suburbs of wherever you don't have that option and you can't say to 00:30:57.999 --> 00:30:59.339 those people They shouldn't own a horse. 00:31:00.919 --> 00:31:04.764 The herd situation is not necessarily available. 00:31:05.284 --> 00:31:10.164 And then even if it is, like if it's an what you call an active style you 00:31:10.164 --> 00:31:15.694 know, a sort of open stable in Germany, the herds are relatively fluid. 00:31:15.704 --> 00:31:19.424 They're not established herds of years and years and years that have 00:31:19.424 --> 00:31:21.449 the luxury of that kind of stability. 00:31:21.999 --> 00:31:27.919 And in therapeutic barns, for sure this is often the case, I mean there's, there 00:31:27.919 --> 00:31:31.459 are many therapeutic barns who do have land, but there's an awful lot that don't, 00:31:31.459 --> 00:31:35.999 and I'm thinking about in particular one really good project that we have with 00:31:35.999 --> 00:31:40.599 Horseboy in the middle, and I mean the middle of Dublin, and some people would 00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.209 say, well you shouldn't keep horses there, other people would say, yeah, but. 00:31:44.749 --> 00:31:50.829 Those kids in the middle of Dublin would have no access otherwise and Their horses 00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:54.629 are performing a great service and healing and the people who are running the barn 00:31:54.649 --> 00:31:59.579 of course are you know Behaving rationally and rotating them in and out from a place 00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:02.799 in the country where they can actually go out and blah blah So they're doing what 00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:05.669 they can but Can you speak to this a bit? 00:32:05.669 --> 00:32:10.899 Because I, I think this is a dilemma for a lot of horse owners and particularly 00:32:10.899 --> 00:32:14.389 horse owners that have really sort of active programs, you know, lots 00:32:14.389 --> 00:32:15.919 of clients, that sort of thing. 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:19.909 And they, they haven't got the luxury of necessarily waiting 00:32:19.909 --> 00:32:21.139 for a horse in that way. 00:32:21.489 --> 00:32:25.709 They haven't got necessarily the staff that are attuned. 00:32:26.209 --> 00:32:28.949 They're not coming out of a culture that values that. 00:32:29.479 --> 00:32:30.759 They might say, well that's the horse. 00:32:31.949 --> 00:32:34.939 You know all the things they'd say and into the bargain. 00:32:34.939 --> 00:32:38.579 Well, maybe that horse isn't getting enough sleep So knowing what you know now, 00:32:38.619 --> 00:32:44.869 what would you what advice do you have for people in these imperfect scenarios? 00:32:45.139 --> 00:32:46.309 Through no fault of their own. 00:32:49.009 --> 00:32:51.869 Warwick Schiller: Well, probably the first thing I'd say is 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:54.829 Horses are very resilient. 00:32:55.099 --> 00:33:02.769 They will adapt to whatever's going on And if you know if a horse is exhibiting 00:33:05.149 --> 00:33:10.139 anxious and possibly therefore dangerous behaviors, then you want to try to 00:33:10.139 --> 00:33:14.219 remedy that because they're, they're not going to be, if they're in like 00:33:14.219 --> 00:33:16.689 a therapeutic thing, they're not going to be able to work for that. 00:33:17.159 --> 00:33:21.629 But you know, that's on the, that's on the, the fight flight. 00:33:21.649 --> 00:33:22.559 That's on the, that's 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:23.389 Rupert Isaacson: on the extreme end. 00:33:23.669 --> 00:33:23.879 It's on, 00:33:23.889 --> 00:33:26.699 Warwick Schiller: well, that's it's on the sympathetic nervous system part of it. 00:33:30.149 --> 00:33:35.259 Many times for a horse to exist in those types of conditions, they kind of can 00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:37.979 go inside their head a bit and they're more in a, if you're into polyvagal 00:33:37.989 --> 00:33:42.519 stuff, they're more in a, like a dorsal vagal shut downy type existence. 00:33:43.209 --> 00:33:46.379 And a lot of people get really bent out of shape. 00:33:46.379 --> 00:33:47.549 Like they shouldn't be like that. 00:33:48.399 --> 00:33:51.709 You know, in my marriage, my wife has. 00:33:52.444 --> 00:33:55.644 Even though she no longer identifies as anxious, she's been the anxious one. 00:33:55.704 --> 00:33:58.104 And I've been the, what I thought was the cool, calm and 00:33:58.144 --> 00:33:59.424 collected one all of my life. 00:34:00.024 --> 00:34:04.184 Then I realized that, Oh, no, she's been living in a sympathetic state. 00:34:04.194 --> 00:34:06.834 She's been living in anxiety and I've been living in shutdown. 00:34:08.944 --> 00:34:12.214 The thing about being in shutdown, like think about if you're 00:34:12.214 --> 00:34:13.964 anxious, you know, you're anxious. 00:34:14.034 --> 00:34:17.934 It's not a good feeling if you're in shutdown and you've only ever lived in 00:34:17.934 --> 00:34:21.534 shutdown and you don't know anything else, it's not a bad place to be. 00:34:22.034 --> 00:34:22.364 It's a pretty. 00:34:22.759 --> 00:34:24.299 Pretty peaceful sort of a place. 00:34:24.329 --> 00:34:30.739 Now there is more to life than living in that dorsal vagal tone but if 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:33.699 a horse 00:34:36.379 --> 00:34:41.199 in say like a Healing scenario like you know Like you know some of the 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.429 programs you're talking about and you deal with if they're in a bit of that 00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:49.349 state In order for it to work, they're quite happy to be in that, you know, 00:34:49.349 --> 00:34:52.809 they're, they're not, they're not wishing they were some, they're not 00:34:52.809 --> 00:34:55.029 suffering, they're not suffering at all. 00:34:55.029 --> 00:34:58.049 And like I said, speaking from personal experience, when you shut 00:34:58.049 --> 00:35:00.209 down, you're not suffering at all. 00:35:00.709 --> 00:35:02.959 You're not, you're not aware. 00:35:03.454 --> 00:35:06.944 That you're suffering, you know, the world may be a bit gray, 00:35:07.384 --> 00:35:10.524 but Hey, it's, it's all good. 00:35:10.524 --> 00:35:17.904 So, you know, I'd say as long as, you know, as long as a horse is 00:35:17.964 --> 00:35:20.604 well, the thing about if, you know, like I said, if they're anxious and 00:35:20.604 --> 00:35:23.944 they're, they're, they're exhibiting anxious behaviors, which can be 00:35:23.944 --> 00:35:28.754 dangerous for them or dangerous for the humans around them, they're not 00:35:28.754 --> 00:35:30.034 going to get looked after very well. 00:35:30.034 --> 00:35:32.744 They're probably going to end up in France. 00:35:33.214 --> 00:35:33.874 You know what I mean? 00:35:34.264 --> 00:35:34.424 Yeah. 00:35:34.474 --> 00:35:35.644 Whereas if they. 00:35:36.544 --> 00:35:39.694 You know, they're more tractable sort of thing that they will, 00:35:39.774 --> 00:35:40.734 they will have a purpose. 00:35:40.734 --> 00:35:41.424 They'll be fed. 00:35:41.424 --> 00:35:42.264 They'll be looked after. 00:35:42.264 --> 00:35:43.144 They'll have a life. 00:35:43.694 --> 00:35:50.104 So I don't, I'm not really judgmental about people who, you know, can't have 00:35:50.104 --> 00:35:52.314 a horse in the most perfect situation. 00:35:52.474 --> 00:35:56.284 They're very adaptable and, and someone that you and I both know, a lady from 00:35:56.284 --> 00:35:58.934 Sweden named Emily Kay's daughter is a. 00:36:00.214 --> 00:36:03.934 Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call her an animal communicator cause that would 00:36:03.954 --> 00:36:10.914 be selling her, her powers very, very short, but like she, she connects with the 00:36:10.944 --> 00:36:13.144 actual, the consciousness of all horses. 00:36:13.144 --> 00:36:17.594 And she will tell us that the horses are like, we'll do whatever we need. 00:36:17.594 --> 00:36:18.904 We're like, we don't hold any grudges. 00:36:18.904 --> 00:36:22.604 When you, when you show up differently, we can show up differently. 00:36:22.604 --> 00:36:23.774 We don't hold grudges. 00:36:23.804 --> 00:36:24.014 We. 00:36:24.514 --> 00:36:28.954 You know, and so I don't, you know, I think people can get, 00:36:31.864 --> 00:36:36.884 you know, maybe a little emotional about horses if they don't have 00:36:36.904 --> 00:36:40.474 just the most perfect life. 00:36:40.494 --> 00:36:41.134 You know what I mean? 00:36:41.474 --> 00:36:46.134 Whereas I feel like they're, they're a lot more adaptable than that. 00:36:46.134 --> 00:36:50.014 And I think about the, you know, horses in that shut down sort of a 00:36:50.014 --> 00:36:52.584 state, if you, you know, if you think about nervous system states, you go 00:36:52.584 --> 00:36:57.354 from, you know, you go from you know, relaxed or, you know, having a regulated 00:36:57.354 --> 00:37:01.724 nervous, you know, you're relaxed and then fight or flight comes after that. 00:37:01.989 --> 00:37:05.879 And then if you're captured or fight or flight's not, doesn't work, then 00:37:05.879 --> 00:37:09.599 the free state comes after that, that dorsal state comes after that. 00:37:09.609 --> 00:37:14.129 So you have to be careful about trying to bring a horse out of a dorsal state, 00:37:14.149 --> 00:37:21.189 if you so choose, because the next step on the ladder is going to be more of 00:37:21.189 --> 00:37:25.759 a sympathetic state and not going to go from dorsal to, Oh, now he's good. 00:37:25.809 --> 00:37:28.989 And so you really, you know, I think for a lot of horses. 00:37:31.094 --> 00:37:33.184 Leaving him in that bit of a dorsal state. 00:37:33.184 --> 00:37:36.944 I'm not talking about comatose type thing or catatonic sort of a thing. 00:37:38.334 --> 00:37:40.034 And we see, that's what that Mustang would do though. 00:37:40.284 --> 00:37:42.564 He'd be in this kind of a dorsal shut down. 00:37:42.564 --> 00:37:45.344 He'd kind of a state, but then he'd come out of it. 00:37:47.084 --> 00:37:47.574 And 00:37:48.504 --> 00:37:50.404 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's interesting. 00:37:50.434 --> 00:37:54.354 I think as you speak, I'm thinking about, well, the lives that a lot of the horses 00:37:54.354 --> 00:37:58.404 that I know that are in, for example, our programs now that said that the 00:37:58.404 --> 00:38:02.064 programs that we've got, the people who run them, they're excellent horse people. 00:38:02.064 --> 00:38:02.374 And they. 00:38:03.134 --> 00:38:06.004 Do everything for the horses welfare, but one of the things I've noticed that 00:38:06.004 --> 00:38:10.394 even in the, in the situations where the conditions aren't everything we 00:38:10.394 --> 00:38:16.724 would like them to be, what the horses do have is a really interesting set of 00:38:16.724 --> 00:38:21.614 relationships with a really interesting set of humans, as well as the other 00:38:21.614 --> 00:38:24.924 equines that are there, but the humans that are coming in and not coming in and 00:38:24.924 --> 00:38:30.474 saying, you must do this and sort of just bossing them about that they're coming 00:38:30.474 --> 00:38:36.599 in with an enormous vulnerability and you definitely see horses showing all sides 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:38.979 of their personalities in a way that 00:38:41.249 --> 00:38:47.149 from the outside it appears that the horse is feeling fulfilled and has a 00:38:47.149 --> 00:38:56.559 sense of purpose and a sense of pleasure in the relationship with this variety 00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:59.369 of interesting but vulnerable humans that are coming through the door. 00:39:00.839 --> 00:39:06.199 Here's a question I wanted to ask When I got my dressage hat on and I'm being 00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:13.169 brought into clinic, in that the biggest problem I usually see isn't fear or 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.939 stress in that particular type of stress. 00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:17.229 Usually it's boredom. 00:39:17.739 --> 00:39:19.099 The horse is just bored. 00:39:19.129 --> 00:39:24.809 And you said something, as I made a little note here, back in your first, when you, 00:39:25.289 --> 00:39:29.279 story, you were saying, well, is the horse just bored with endlessly going through 00:39:29.279 --> 00:39:32.649 the same drill again, and then After a while, you thought, well, maybe not. 00:39:32.649 --> 00:39:33.639 Maybe it's something else. 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:42.219 Dressage is part of what I do for reasons that have to do more with 00:39:42.309 --> 00:39:44.559 nervous system effects on people. 00:39:46.379 --> 00:39:49.219 I've never thought that it needs to be boring because you can 00:39:49.219 --> 00:39:52.029 vary it in so many different ways if you want to make it playful. 00:39:52.029 --> 00:39:55.089 And, you know, it can be whatever you want it to be. 00:39:55.309 --> 00:39:59.239 But naturally, most people are presented with it. 00:39:59.979 --> 00:40:03.519 as something that's come out of the military. 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.219 So therefore a very regimented sort of drill thing. 00:40:06.709 --> 00:40:09.969 And similarly, you see similar things in the Western world and you see similar 00:40:10.009 --> 00:40:12.349 things in I think any of the disciplines. 00:40:12.729 --> 00:40:20.529 When the horses are in this level of boredom, but they're also activating 00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:23.739 sympathetic nervous system because they need to perform really use their 00:40:23.739 --> 00:40:27.229 bodies and then presumably they're also getting endorphins you know presumably 00:40:27.229 --> 00:40:32.159 that it's not all bad but you can see this boredom you can see this desire to 00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:36.659 just express yourself and then of course there's the odd horse who can express 00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:40.359 themselves in that situation and they tend to win a lot of prizes but the 00:40:40.359 --> 00:40:42.509 average one does not with the attunement 00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:52.854 what do you say to people who are with a horse that is kind of doing 00:40:52.874 --> 00:40:54.964 the same thing every day, all day. 00:40:55.544 --> 00:41:00.854 And you know that that person doesn't feel safe doing anything else. 00:41:01.794 --> 00:41:04.714 So no matter what you say, not much is going to change. 00:41:04.714 --> 00:41:08.744 What are the, what are the, and this can happen in the not so good therapy 00:41:09.084 --> 00:41:13.279 settings as well, where the horses are just being pulled out and Effectively 00:41:13.279 --> 00:41:16.389 give them pony rides and they're stiff and they're arthritic and this sort of 00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:19.919 thing But again, people will come up with a bazillion reasons why they can't 00:41:19.919 --> 00:41:23.419 change it, you know And then you realize that you can't push this boulder uphill. 00:41:23.419 --> 00:41:26.389 So you realize that okay, that's how it's going to be What do 00:41:26.389 --> 00:41:28.369 you what's your like minimum 00:41:30.879 --> 00:41:35.159 set of tools that you will try to leave people with to? 00:41:36.029 --> 00:41:40.879 Make it as optimal as it can be even if you know, it's not going to 00:41:40.879 --> 00:41:42.814 be everything you'd like it to be 00:41:47.194 --> 00:41:50.064 Warwick Schiller: I'm not exactly sure of your question, but I 00:41:50.104 --> 00:41:55.034 wanted to, you know, this whole attunement thing is not just about 00:41:57.524 --> 00:41:59.764 listening in the beginning. 00:42:00.314 --> 00:42:06.254 It's listening all the time and noticing the horses getting bored and changing 00:42:06.264 --> 00:42:08.484 things up would be part of listening. 00:42:09.584 --> 00:42:09.981 You know what I mean? 00:42:09.981 --> 00:42:11.954 It's not this, you know, listening is not, yeah. 00:42:12.309 --> 00:42:16.689 I listened to the, I listened to you when I first got you and now we're, we're 00:42:17.419 --> 00:42:22.189 training, you know, I, I feel, you know, if you've ever heard the, the, the saying 00:42:22.189 --> 00:42:25.779 to do with training horses, you know, you want to reward the slightest try. 00:42:26.649 --> 00:42:26.969 Okay. 00:42:27.289 --> 00:42:31.609 When you reward the slightest try, not only are you rewarding the slightest 00:42:31.619 --> 00:42:37.249 try, which means usually would mean removing an aid or whatever, not only 00:42:37.249 --> 00:42:41.909 are you rewarding the slightest try, you're communicating your awareness. 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:44.669 Of that try. 00:42:44.759 --> 00:42:48.599 And I really feel that is a huge part of a horse 00:42:51.089 --> 00:42:52.169 trusting 00:42:54.294 --> 00:42:54.514 you. 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:57.679 You like, you just, you just you, you're repetitively 00:42:57.679 --> 00:42:58.849 saying, I noticed little things. 00:42:58.849 --> 00:42:59.629 I notice little things. 00:42:59.629 --> 00:43:00.409 I notice little things. 00:43:00.409 --> 00:43:00.949 I notice little things. 00:43:00.949 --> 00:43:06.069 And I think that's, I think that's part of the thing that makes them feel safe. 00:43:06.069 --> 00:43:08.949 And I just want to talk about that while it was on my fresh in my mind. 00:43:09.345 --> 00:43:11.675 Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're 00:43:11.675 --> 00:43:16.105 considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:43:16.175 --> 00:43:20.445 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:43:20.505 --> 00:43:26.085 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:32.990 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:43:32.990 --> 00:43:35.660 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:43:35.660 --> 00:43:38.540 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:42.150 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:43:42.645 --> 00:43:47.595 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:43:48.255 --> 00:43:49.695 It works incredibly well. 00:43:49.695 --> 00:43:51.415 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:43:52.125 --> 00:43:52.875 Check it out. 00:43:53.555 --> 00:43:57.705 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:43:57.715 --> 00:44:01.085 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:44:01.085 --> 00:44:02.835 applied in schools, in homes. 00:44:03.035 --> 00:44:08.025 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:44:08.025 --> 00:44:09.565 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.200 when they're not with you. 00:44:12.710 --> 00:44:16.150 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:44:16.510 --> 00:44:19.130 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:44:19.130 --> 00:44:23.130 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:44:23.160 --> 00:44:27.450 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:44:27.890 --> 00:44:31.230 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:35.490 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:44:35.690 --> 00:44:39.980 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:44:39.980 --> 00:44:43.280 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:46.375 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:44:46.615 --> 00:44:51.115 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:44:51.445 --> 00:44:53.095 absolutely gives you this. 00:44:53.155 --> 00:44:54.625 Warwick Schiller: Can you ask your question again though? 00:44:54.655 --> 00:44:55.645 'cause I don't think I really got, yeah. 00:44:55.675 --> 00:44:56.935 Well read of your question. 00:44:56.935 --> 00:45:02.345 Rupert Isaacson: When people are locked into a system where they are doing. 00:45:02.620 --> 00:45:04.210 The same stuff over and over again. 00:45:04.670 --> 00:45:06.330 And they feel that they have to. 00:45:07.040 --> 00:45:11.140 And no matter what you say, they're going to defend that. 00:45:11.700 --> 00:45:15.460 And you know that you're going to have to walk away from that clinic, 00:45:15.460 --> 00:45:17.140 that situation, that whatever. 00:45:19.220 --> 00:45:27.640 Trying to leave a set of easy tools that will hopefully shift things just 00:45:27.640 --> 00:45:32.630 a little bit in that listening way in a culture that Not only doesn't 00:45:32.630 --> 00:45:34.210 listen, but doesn't know how to listen. 00:45:35.310 --> 00:45:36.880 And there are many cultures like this. 00:45:39.050 --> 00:45:41.470 Do you have a set of tools? 00:45:42.100 --> 00:45:46.230 Okay, you coming to, let's say you come to my barn and you just notice that I'm 00:45:46.250 --> 00:45:52.720 not really listening much and you try to show me a bit about how to listen and 00:45:52.720 --> 00:45:55.150 I'm just not listening to you either. 00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:56.520 Really, not much. 00:45:58.010 --> 00:45:59.750 You know, you're gonna leave day after tomorrow. 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:04.780 What do, do you have like a go to strategy? 00:46:05.010 --> 00:46:06.420 Three or four things that 00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:11.930 With somebody like that with somebody like me in that situation you would 00:46:11.930 --> 00:46:16.130 say, okay I'm gonna give Rupert these three easy things and if he 00:46:16.140 --> 00:46:19.760 does these three easy things the rest will kind of begin to shift 00:46:24.620 --> 00:46:32.590 Warwick Schiller: My my go to is I don't offer advice unless people are asking 00:46:34.310 --> 00:46:37.150 So I don't look over the fence and go hey, you should be doing it differently 00:46:38.240 --> 00:46:44.305 so that's like the the first part is if I was at your place and Unless I didn't 00:46:44.305 --> 00:46:46.635 know you, and I was at your place, and you were doing something that I didn't 00:46:46.635 --> 00:46:50.195 agree with and thought you could do it differently, unless you said, Hey, any 00:46:50.195 --> 00:46:51.765 suggestions on how to do this better? 00:46:52.295 --> 00:46:52.745 I wouldn't. 00:46:53.515 --> 00:46:54.155 Say a word. 00:46:54.705 --> 00:47:00.755 And the other thing is, I'm, you know, they say you create your own luck and I'm 00:47:00.755 --> 00:47:05.885 very lucky that I've been very upfront like on social media and things like 00:47:05.915 --> 00:47:08.075 that about the way I view the world. 00:47:08.145 --> 00:47:14.605 And so I don't get people coming to clinics who aren't terribly interested 00:47:15.315 --> 00:47:18.515 in the way I'm doing things these days. 00:47:18.525 --> 00:47:20.115 So I'm very, very lucky. 00:47:20.115 --> 00:47:24.155 I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't deal with people and this 00:47:24.155 --> 00:47:25.305 is not, I don't deal with them. 00:47:25.305 --> 00:47:30.250 I don't I don't get confronted with people who want to defend their position. 00:47:30.250 --> 00:47:30.610 Who are doing 00:47:30.830 --> 00:47:32.640 Rupert Isaacson: a lot of resistance to, yeah, yeah. 00:47:32.790 --> 00:47:33.260 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:37.800 And, and, and, you know, I do quite a few horse expos, but I recruit 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:39.780 the people for the demo too. 00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:41.740 So I look for horses with a certain problem. 00:47:41.740 --> 00:47:44.180 I have them send me videos and I can see the problem, like, yeah, I can help you. 00:47:44.680 --> 00:47:47.020 So I don't have a good answer for that. 00:47:47.020 --> 00:47:48.000 Cause I really. 00:47:48.270 --> 00:47:51.970 I'm not, like I said, I'm very, very lucky that I'm not ever in 00:47:51.970 --> 00:47:56.900 a position to where I have to try to convince people of something. 00:47:56.900 --> 00:47:57.570 All right, well then I'm 00:47:57.570 --> 00:48:00.220 Rupert Isaacson: going to pose the question differently because sometimes 00:48:00.240 --> 00:48:01.790 I am in that position sometimes. 00:48:02.130 --> 00:48:08.820 The, the old god of therapeutic riding also came out of the military to some 00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:18.320 degree and isn't really attuned for people like my son when he was young. 00:48:19.020 --> 00:48:20.000 People are too bossy. 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:22.880 There's an assumption of top down instruction being understood. 00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:24.210 People are irritable. 00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:30.495 There's a, there's, if you, as you know, if you boss People around who've got, 00:48:30.575 --> 00:48:34.105 who don't understand what you're talking about and have overactive amygdalas. 00:48:34.115 --> 00:48:38.095 It will just cause distress and harm and so on and so on, but the people 00:48:38.105 --> 00:48:43.765 who, who might be in that situation, they're in there still for the right 00:48:43.775 --> 00:48:48.085 reasons and therapeutic riding when it was born was really addressing 00:48:50.525 --> 00:48:51.380 physical injury. 00:48:52.300 --> 00:48:56.120 With some psychological trauma things attached to it, but the people who 00:48:56.120 --> 00:49:00.600 had basic top down understanding their cognition was quote unquote normal 00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:03.760 And they were basically motivated to be there motivated to get on 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:08.270 horse with A non verbal autistic kid, this is not the case at all. 00:49:08.990 --> 00:49:13.800 And I myself would not have been able to listen in the way that I 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:17.350 can have my own son not trained me, because nothing else worked. 00:49:17.910 --> 00:49:19.620 Fortunately, I'd also lived at the Bushman. 00:49:20.310 --> 00:49:21.440 I'd learned some things there. 00:49:22.140 --> 00:49:23.760 But it was hard enough for me. 00:49:24.890 --> 00:49:27.630 When I go in, I do have a set of tools which I try to 00:49:30.220 --> 00:49:30.750 to leave. 00:49:30.830 --> 00:49:32.510 The first one is follow the child. 00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:35.220 And then I break down what follow the child means. 00:49:35.220 --> 00:49:38.650 Follow the child is physically, you actually physically have to kind 00:49:38.650 --> 00:49:40.080 of follow them around and observe. 00:49:40.270 --> 00:49:42.360 Otherwise you've got no idea what motivates them because they're not going 00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:43.780 to tell you because they're not verbal. 00:49:44.110 --> 00:49:47.450 You know, the second one is emotionally because that's often. 00:49:48.040 --> 00:49:52.890 Sensorial, sensorally, one will think that the tantrums and meltdowns and 00:49:52.890 --> 00:49:56.820 whatever are coming out of the blue or the sudden states of ecstasy But they're 00:49:56.820 --> 00:50:01.070 actually not, they're usually in response to something hitting the nervous system 00:50:01.070 --> 00:50:04.820 and because you're observing this kid because you're physically following them 00:50:04.820 --> 00:50:08.700 around you begin to notice what's in the environment when they're upset and 00:50:08.700 --> 00:50:12.750 when they're happy and You can begin to organize their environment because you 00:50:12.750 --> 00:50:17.220 see these patterns Then the third way the final way is following them intellectually 00:50:17.490 --> 00:50:19.660 and this is about finding out. 00:50:19.740 --> 00:50:21.070 What are their obsessions? 00:50:21.620 --> 00:50:26.120 And really diving into those even if you don't like them, even if they bore you 00:50:26.120 --> 00:50:31.330 even I don't care much about minecraft Frankly, you know i'm not into Computer 00:50:31.330 --> 00:50:36.980 games, but I will absolutely get into that, why that kid is into them and then 00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:42.320 learn to talk about it and print out and cut out and laminate the characters from 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:47.250 that show or that game and tie them to trees so that we got a treasure hunt to 00:50:47.250 --> 00:50:50.650 follow that because that's where the kid's interest is that I'm going to follow that 00:50:50.650 --> 00:50:55.940 and I'm going to, those would be like, that's a standard tool that I would go in 00:50:55.940 --> 00:50:59.790 with and it's not mine that I thought up by the way, Temple Grandin gave it to me. 00:51:01.895 --> 00:51:03.575 Most of my good ideas are not my own. 00:51:05.675 --> 00:51:09.805 People are listening to you now, and they're wondering what they can do without 00:51:09.815 --> 00:51:14.825 Warwick Schiller being in their barn, coming to their place, saying, I would 00:51:14.825 --> 00:51:17.075 like to get more attunement with my horse. 00:51:17.075 --> 00:51:18.325 I would like to listen more. 00:51:18.915 --> 00:51:19.945 How do they do this? 00:51:21.645 --> 00:51:25.980 Warwick Schiller: Well, you know what's funny is, ahem, You the, the, the 00:51:25.990 --> 00:51:32.180 three basic things that you just talked about, the following, all the stuff. 00:51:33.790 --> 00:51:37.170 It's, it's, it's, it's my basic rule too, which is first 00:51:37.170 --> 00:51:38.160 you've got to give up control. 00:51:38.690 --> 00:51:39.110 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:51:39.650 --> 00:51:44.230 Warwick Schiller: Giving up control is the very, very, very first thing. 00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:45.430 Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm. 00:51:46.090 --> 00:51:49.870 Warwick Schiller: And, you know, you, the thing about, the thing about giving 00:51:49.870 --> 00:51:51.890 up control is you have to be able to. 00:51:52.530 --> 00:51:54.690 You know, when you're dealing with a thousand pound animal is you've 00:51:54.690 --> 00:51:58.700 got to be able to give up control in a situation to where Giving up 00:51:58.700 --> 00:52:04.300 control is not going to get anybody hurt them or you but you know for me, 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:14.880 you know, having them give it usually usually the You know helping people 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:16.240 with their horses a lot of times. 00:52:16.240 --> 00:52:19.450 There's they have these Transformational moments. 00:52:19.450 --> 00:52:24.040 I'm not trying to do equine assisted therapy, but helping people with their 00:52:24.050 --> 00:52:30.390 horses So many people have like of these little big aha And a lot of, a lot of 00:52:30.390 --> 00:52:37.800 times it's because they gave up control and it worked out and they've almost never 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.520 been able to give up control in their entire life because they've been scared 00:52:41.520 --> 00:52:44.640 of giving up control because what's on the other side of that fear sort of thing. 00:52:44.690 --> 00:52:47.050 And when I can help somebody. 00:52:47.655 --> 00:52:51.425 Give up control and it actually helps them solve the problems with their horses. 00:52:51.425 --> 00:52:56.605 They've been trying to solve It's almost like a metaphor for life Like the the 00:52:56.605 --> 00:53:00.775 magic is on the other side of your other side of your fear and and you know 00:53:01.425 --> 00:53:07.285 Not giving up control is all the you know, it's a very fear based Fear based 00:53:07.295 --> 00:53:10.165 type thing, but it's interesting in your tongue about the following thing. 00:53:10.585 --> 00:53:11.205 So I had a 00:53:13.495 --> 00:53:17.275 And a lady came to a clinic years ago and riding her horse, he would, 00:53:17.335 --> 00:53:19.065 he has, he has sleep deprivation. 00:53:19.065 --> 00:53:22.245 So he'll be, she'll be sitting on him and he'll just buckle at the knees 00:53:22.245 --> 00:53:23.535 and almost fall down and jump up. 00:53:23.565 --> 00:53:26.945 And very, very shut down horse, like really in his head sort of thing. 00:53:27.465 --> 00:53:31.095 And one of the, she'd been to, I'd probably see her every six months. 00:53:31.095 --> 00:53:33.425 She'd, she probably went to clinics for a number of years. 00:53:34.045 --> 00:53:38.355 And initially she, she trained this horse with another person's program 00:53:38.355 --> 00:53:40.325 that was very, very obedience based. 00:53:41.090 --> 00:53:42.380 You do this, you do that, you do this. 00:53:42.380 --> 00:53:48.590 And she got him to where he was like a robot, like very robotic and low energy. 00:53:48.590 --> 00:53:50.150 She couldn't get more energy out of him. 00:53:50.150 --> 00:53:53.530 And one of the reasons she wanted, she sought me out was how do 00:53:53.530 --> 00:53:54.470 I get more energy out of him? 00:53:54.470 --> 00:53:56.370 Well, she was trying to have more. 00:53:56.745 --> 00:53:58.735 Input go in to get more energy out. 00:53:58.735 --> 00:54:02.345 But the thing was, this horse was completely dorsal, you know, 00:54:02.345 --> 00:54:04.045 like he was very, very shut down. 00:54:04.475 --> 00:54:09.745 And so any energy that went into him, he just basically blocked it out. 00:54:09.785 --> 00:54:15.415 And, you know, for her, I was trying to get her to start the conversation, but 00:54:15.415 --> 00:54:20.635 there was no starting point because the way he'd been interacted with, he was just 00:54:20.635 --> 00:54:23.095 like, humans suck sort of thing, you know. 00:54:23.815 --> 00:54:27.535 And one of the things I had to do was matching steps with him. 00:54:27.535 --> 00:54:30.605 So basically following him around, like if he walks, if you're on the ground 00:54:30.605 --> 00:54:33.785 there with him and he walks off, just go with him, go wherever he goes. 00:54:33.805 --> 00:54:37.795 Don't try to redirect him because the redirecting is not available anyway 00:54:37.795 --> 00:54:39.255 and he's been asked to do too much. 00:54:41.245 --> 00:54:46.915 And I wasn't doing that to solve any sleep deprivation issues. 00:54:46.915 --> 00:54:53.675 I was doing that to, like as a starting point for the conversation. 00:54:55.495 --> 00:55:00.955 And so she's at one clinic, this was in LA and she, I basically got a matching 00:55:00.955 --> 00:55:02.545 steps and just go on where he goes. 00:55:02.595 --> 00:55:03.685 If he stops, she stops. 00:55:03.685 --> 00:55:07.235 If he turns right, she turns right without putting any pressure on the lead rope. 00:55:09.115 --> 00:55:15.445 Anyway, she's leading him around and then he walks around a circle, lays 00:55:15.445 --> 00:55:23.065 down, goes to sleep, lays flat and starts almost like, not convulsing, 00:55:23.065 --> 00:55:27.205 but like, almost like a dog chasing rabbits in his sleep sort of thing. 00:55:27.385 --> 00:55:27.855 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:55:28.255 --> 00:55:31.325 Warwick Schiller: And he's weaning and his little legs are going and like she 00:55:31.325 --> 00:55:34.395 said, and one of the things she said is he never lays down, I've never seen him lay 00:55:34.395 --> 00:55:39.165 down, and so he lays down at this clinic and has this sleep for a while, and he 00:55:39.165 --> 00:55:43.065 never looks at the environment, like he walks around and stares at the ground, 00:55:43.075 --> 00:55:46.075 like he's just like a He's just mmm. 00:55:46.765 --> 00:55:49.875 It's almost like a non maybe like a nonverbal child sort of thing. 00:55:49.925 --> 00:55:51.805 You know what I mean? 00:55:51.805 --> 00:55:56.505 Anyway after this sleep he chases the rabbits, you know he's little legs 00:55:56.505 --> 00:56:00.925 are gone and then he jumps up and Looks over in the distance and snorts 00:56:01.305 --> 00:56:04.705 and stuck and like really alert with his head stuck in the air and his 00:56:04.715 --> 00:56:10.215 ears Prick, you know, and these are these are things he never exhibits 00:56:10.315 --> 00:56:14.215 But it came from, came from that following and where'd the following 00:56:14.215 --> 00:56:18.045 come from giving up control, stop trying to control the animal, 00:56:18.045 --> 00:56:19.055 Rupert Isaacson: you 00:56:19.515 --> 00:56:20.705 Warwick Schiller: know, and if you think about what I did with the 00:56:20.715 --> 00:56:24.735 Mustang, I gave up control, like he turns his head instead of me going, 00:56:25.095 --> 00:56:27.645 you are subservient to me and you need to move your head back there cause I 00:56:27.645 --> 00:56:29.285 want to walk down here and do my thing. 00:56:30.635 --> 00:56:36.345 I think that's the, that's kind of the, the start of the conversation 00:56:36.385 --> 00:56:37.645 and, and, and under saddle too. 00:56:38.265 --> 00:56:41.995 Undersaddle too, very much so, but that's, but like I said you know, I don't Talk to 00:56:41.995 --> 00:56:43.875 Rupert Isaacson: us about when you're giving up control undersaddle. 00:56:44.095 --> 00:56:46.135 I think that's hard for a lot of people to picture. 00:56:49.165 --> 00:56:52.335 Warwick Schiller: That's easy, ask him, you know, for me, a horse has to be able 00:56:52.335 --> 00:56:57.625 to walk, trot, and canter on a loose rein, but no steering, no influence 00:56:57.635 --> 00:57:02.345 from the rider, and use the whole arena before we even start doing much else. 00:57:02.895 --> 00:57:06.685 I want the horse to be as comfortable under saddle with a human on 00:57:06.685 --> 00:57:09.785 their back as they are walking around out there on their own. 00:57:09.785 --> 00:57:17.045 Like, you know, you don't see horses crab walking sideways or things like that 00:57:17.065 --> 00:57:18.945 when no one's, when no one's riding them. 00:57:19.305 --> 00:57:22.845 And so I, I, I basically want to have them to where 00:57:25.085 --> 00:57:29.215 you can, like I said, walk, trot, kennel, no steering on a loose run. 00:57:29.215 --> 00:57:32.575 You know, you think about a lot of times people, when they start riding a horse, 00:57:32.575 --> 00:57:33.845 they want the horse to go forward. 00:57:34.630 --> 00:57:38.980 But then there's all these limiting factors and what I call what do I call it? 00:57:40.130 --> 00:57:41.380 Opposing forces. 00:57:42.680 --> 00:57:43.040 Okay. 00:57:43.390 --> 00:57:46.320 When you're working on forward, it's forward only, not forward in a certain 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:48.760 direction with a certain carriage, with a certain amount of contact. 00:57:48.790 --> 00:57:50.370 It's, can you go forward? 00:57:50.530 --> 00:57:55.200 And if they're standing still and you ask them to walk, don't, and you don't steer 00:57:55.200 --> 00:57:58.820 them, the reins are completely loose, the horse can do whatever they want. 00:57:58.830 --> 00:58:00.980 A lot of times they will tell you where their mind is at. 00:58:00.990 --> 00:58:02.760 And usually they'll just walk straight over to the gate. 00:58:03.680 --> 00:58:06.480 Okay, because their thoughts are back at the barn or back with 00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:08.210 their friends or whatever but 00:58:12.660 --> 00:58:14.560 You know, that's, that's normally what will happen. 00:58:14.630 --> 00:58:15.960 Well, either one or two things will happen. 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:16.720 I'll do that. 00:58:17.060 --> 00:58:23.600 Or when they go to walk off, they'll walk and then they'll get a bunch of 00:58:23.600 --> 00:58:26.530 energy and they'll go off into a trot, you know, like they'll start to run off 00:58:26.540 --> 00:58:30.860 and that's when you can just pick up one round and redirect that energy back around 00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:34.230 until you kind of wind it back down. 00:58:34.900 --> 00:58:35.320 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:58:35.410 --> 00:58:39.710 Well, I think that's an essential point because it can sound very 00:58:39.710 --> 00:58:41.940 extreme to say I'm giving up control completely if the horse. 00:58:42.495 --> 00:58:47.095 Now takes off at a fast canter in the arena heading towards the corner very fast 00:58:47.095 --> 00:58:51.025 or whatever or whatever and oh shit now suddenly Maybe they're gonna fall over. 00:58:51.595 --> 00:58:56.565 Yeah, but what you're saying is no you are still Directing a bit. 00:58:56.655 --> 00:58:59.685 Warwick Schiller: Well, you give up control until you need to take control. 00:58:59.725 --> 00:59:02.125 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, but that's you have control and if they control 00:59:02.125 --> 00:59:04.280 themselves Crucial point to make 00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:06.075 Warwick Schiller: they have still has to be control. 00:59:06.245 --> 00:59:06.635 Mm hmm. 00:59:06.645 --> 00:59:11.795 Okay, you give up control And the horse should be under their own control. 00:59:11.795 --> 00:59:15.735 And if they lose control, then you have to take control and, but you're not 00:59:15.745 --> 00:59:17.425 trying to stop things from happening. 00:59:17.425 --> 00:59:20.905 It's not out of a, it's not out of a out of a, you shouldn't 00:59:20.915 --> 00:59:23.085 be doing that mentality. 00:59:23.085 --> 00:59:27.485 It's, it's kind of like if, if a if an autistic child is having a meltdown, 00:59:28.875 --> 00:59:31.185 do you tell them, get in their face and tell them, stop doing that. 00:59:31.725 --> 00:59:32.285 You know what I mean? 00:59:32.425 --> 00:59:36.255 It's the same thing with a horse gets, gets emotionally activated trying 00:59:36.255 --> 00:59:37.825 to say, no, you shouldn't do that. 00:59:38.600 --> 00:59:40.830 You know, you can't, you can't stop energy. 00:59:40.830 --> 00:59:44.480 So all, you know, all you're going to do is just redirect that energy till it 00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:49.680 kind of winds back down and they come to a stop that is also a present stop. 00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:54.340 Meaning their mind, a lot of times people can get a horse to come to a halt, 00:59:54.390 --> 00:59:56.760 but their mind is still in the future. 00:59:56.770 --> 00:59:58.640 And that's where that energy was coming from. 00:59:58.650 --> 01:00:00.590 You got to wait till their thoughts change. 01:00:01.585 --> 01:00:03.545 And now they're in their body, their mind and their body are in 01:00:03.545 --> 01:00:04.845 the same place at the same time. 01:00:04.905 --> 01:00:06.655 Because a lot of times what happens is their thoughts run 01:00:06.655 --> 01:00:08.955 away and then their body runs away to catch up to their thoughts. 01:00:09.515 --> 01:00:12.715 So when you bring them back down again and they come to a stop but their 01:00:12.715 --> 01:00:16.845 thoughts are still going, you just wait till the thoughts come back to you 01:00:16.895 --> 01:00:19.295 and right there, they are now present. 01:00:19.325 --> 01:00:21.355 Their mind and body are in the same place at the same time. 01:00:22.175 --> 01:00:24.345 And what have you just done? 01:00:25.205 --> 01:00:25.945 Attunement. 01:00:25.985 --> 01:00:29.515 You just said, I noticed the moment that your thoughts went 01:00:29.525 --> 01:00:31.775 from the future to the present. 01:00:31.775 --> 01:00:35.385 And when you release the rain, right, then you've, you've got 01:00:35.385 --> 01:00:37.505 the physical thing where they're, they're, they're minding their body 01:00:37.505 --> 01:00:38.735 in the same place at the same time. 01:00:38.735 --> 01:00:42.785 But you've also said, I'm so in tune with you that I noticed when your thoughts 01:00:42.785 --> 01:00:47.355 changed, when you let go of that thought, when you let go of that anxious thought. 01:00:48.325 --> 01:00:50.335 And so the, you know, giving up control. 01:00:50.335 --> 01:00:52.755 It's not, it's not about being out of control. 01:00:53.685 --> 01:00:57.685 It's about giving up control and. 01:00:58.910 --> 01:01:01.070 But they still, but they have to be under their own control. 01:01:01.070 --> 01:01:03.680 That's this whole walk, trot, kennel, loose rein, but no steering. 01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:08.140 Before I start doing much with horses, they have to be under their own control. 01:01:08.150 --> 01:01:09.530 You don't control the horse. 01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:10.520 You control you. 01:01:10.520 --> 01:01:11.060 Presumably 01:01:11.070 --> 01:01:13.840 Rupert Isaacson: some horses are going to come in so far from that, 01:01:14.210 --> 01:01:21.130 that in 20, 10 to 30 minutes, they may or may not be able to 01:01:24.785 --> 01:01:27.875 Warwick Schiller: Usually when I'm doing a clinic if any horse has any anxiety 01:01:27.875 --> 01:01:31.325 sort of stuff, we start on the ground the first day, we don't, you know, I 01:01:31.325 --> 01:01:37.335 don't usually go, yes, let's start, let's start, you have, you have ridden issues, 01:01:38.045 --> 01:01:41.165 let's start there, I don't usually do that, you know, usually I tell, usually 01:01:41.165 --> 01:01:45.085 I tell them, you know, I've got this under saddle problem, I'll say that 01:01:45.205 --> 01:01:51.260 Einstein once said that approaching a problem at the level of the problem, Is 01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:55.260 the problem, you know, cause it's going to be an emotional regulation thing. 01:01:55.260 --> 01:02:00.250 It's not going to be a, there, there is no bolting issue or rearing issue 01:02:00.250 --> 01:02:03.430 or bucking issue, whatever it's their emotional regulation issues. 01:02:03.430 --> 01:02:07.800 And if you get the emotions regulated, the bodies, the body works just fine. 01:02:09.020 --> 01:02:12.410 Rupert Isaacson: When you've got, I'm thinking about people who are in 01:02:12.420 --> 01:02:18.530 really busy situations, for example, a therapy bar, loads of clients coming 01:02:18.530 --> 01:02:20.260 in, they're usually almost overwhelmed. 01:02:20.595 --> 01:02:22.345 And it's difficult to turn people away. 01:02:22.825 --> 01:02:27.185 So chances are they've got more clients than they can handle. 01:02:27.185 --> 01:02:28.835 That's usually what I see. 01:02:29.335 --> 01:02:30.275 People are overworked. 01:02:31.375 --> 01:02:37.285 So their worry is often, well, how am I going to find time to do anything 01:02:37.315 --> 01:02:40.135 other than serve these clients? 01:02:40.135 --> 01:02:43.865 Because, you know, that's where my primary, primary, you know, 01:02:44.205 --> 01:02:46.145 sense of service needs to be. 01:02:46.685 --> 01:02:50.960 We faced this issue ourselves when we were at our. 01:02:51.950 --> 01:02:57.800 sort of busiest at new trails in Texas and The work that we needed to do for 01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:01.600 the horses to condition them We're like shit, we can't do it because we're just 01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:03.470 overwhelmed and then I say, oh, hold on. 01:03:03.470 --> 01:03:07.260 Hold on I'm thinking about this the wrong way the conditioning work needs 01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:12.745 to be The work with the client and then why can't the client learn to also do 01:03:12.755 --> 01:03:17.735 the conditioning work because Many of these people absolutely can and then this 01:03:17.735 --> 01:03:22.145 whole other side of what we do called taking got born Just exactly that which 01:03:22.165 --> 01:03:25.955 was which took out the time conflict but it's very difficult for people to 01:03:25.955 --> 01:03:30.955 see beyond the time conflict when that's right in their face understandably and 01:03:30.955 --> 01:03:35.285 so Let's say people are listening to you now and they're going, well, I'd 01:03:35.285 --> 01:03:38.315 love to do some of this stuff that Warwick's talking about, but you know, 01:03:38.315 --> 01:03:39.425 where am I going to find the time? 01:03:40.085 --> 01:03:45.725 How could they mix that in with time working with clients? 01:03:45.725 --> 01:03:47.655 So for example, the first question they're going to have is what I 01:03:47.655 --> 01:03:49.955 can't, you know, lose control of the horse while they're with the client. 01:03:51.185 --> 01:03:53.005 So we faced this problem too. 01:03:53.155 --> 01:03:54.625 And we came up with this thing called crazy time. 01:03:55.855 --> 01:04:01.835 And so we realized that a lot of times the horses just needed play and they 01:04:01.835 --> 01:04:03.955 weren't getting it, for whatever reason. 01:04:04.205 --> 01:04:09.425 So we could create it and we would go in the arena, put a bunch of obstacles out. 01:04:10.015 --> 01:04:11.505 The horses liked jumping, there were jumps. 01:04:11.505 --> 01:04:13.055 If they didn't, there were other things. 01:04:13.655 --> 01:04:18.845 And we'd encourage the horses to play and About every two minutes we go and change 01:04:18.845 --> 01:04:21.445 it, to keep the horses sort of interested. 01:04:22.065 --> 01:04:28.535 And then, what we do is we start measuring out the distances, and widths and heights 01:04:28.535 --> 01:04:32.945 of the jump, and then the distance of the long side, and how fast do you, or 01:04:32.945 --> 01:04:36.775 the horse, or the dog, go down that long side, and then you can calculate distance 01:04:36.775 --> 01:04:40.475 over time, and suddenly you're doing math, you're getting speed, and there's 01:04:40.475 --> 01:04:42.585 also horsemanship, and there's also team building, and we suddenly realize, 01:04:42.585 --> 01:04:43.665 Oh my gosh, that's a whole program! 01:04:44.005 --> 01:04:47.810 And we can absolutely give the horses what they need to Not have any 01:04:47.810 --> 01:04:51.760 control without the time conflict, but it took us a while to get there. 01:04:52.190 --> 01:04:55.705 And we got there because, you know, We were getting stressed and our 01:04:55.715 --> 01:04:58.125 horses were getting stressed and we had to come up with something creative 01:04:59.745 --> 01:05:06.295 when people are Wanting to do what you're talking about There's time 01:05:06.295 --> 01:05:08.125 that they need to take to do this. 01:05:08.665 --> 01:05:12.445 Some of them may feel they haven't got it again Are there easy hacks 01:05:12.835 --> 01:05:18.425 that you can recommend that can just introduce aspects of this 01:05:19.075 --> 01:05:22.005 into quote unquote working sessions 01:05:24.975 --> 01:05:27.825 Warwick Schiller: Well, I, you know, I don't know much about 01:05:27.825 --> 01:05:29.085 the whole therapeutic writing. 01:05:29.555 --> 01:05:31.665 But I'm also thinking of writing schools, for example, I'm thinking 01:05:31.665 --> 01:05:35.895 it's sort of any writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing 01:05:35.895 --> 01:05:38.705 schools would be quite, quite easy. 01:05:39.750 --> 01:05:41.090 And let me tell you a little story. 01:05:41.090 --> 01:05:43.630 So there is a there's a couple of places here in America, they're 01:05:43.630 --> 01:05:46.000 resorts, they're very high end resorts. 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:47.910 They're there's, there's two of them. 01:05:48.310 --> 01:05:51.880 I mean, there's a lot more than these two, but these two are like sister ones, you 01:05:51.880 --> 01:05:53.490 know, that's owned by the same company. 01:05:54.310 --> 01:05:57.570 And they do have a, like an equine assisted. 01:05:57.570 --> 01:06:02.540 One of the things you can do is go ride a horse, but it's meant to be, 01:06:02.780 --> 01:06:08.095 it's meant to be, you know, personal growth, self reflection type stuff. 01:06:08.095 --> 01:06:09.310 And. 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:14.160 We actually had some of the people that run the horse park come to one of our 01:06:14.160 --> 01:06:18.490 retreats last year and they were saying, we want you to come and, we want you 01:06:18.490 --> 01:06:24.450 to come and help us because our horses, you know, tend to deteriorate over time. 01:06:25.730 --> 01:06:30.030 How do we, how do we, and we don't really have the time to. 01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:36.600 To do the right thing with the horses that you know, and it was all that and I said, 01:06:36.650 --> 01:06:41.530 oh, I've got it I've got a great idea because like I said before a lot of times 01:06:41.530 --> 01:06:45.160 when people come to a clinic They'll have a transformational experience on they've 01:06:45.170 --> 01:06:48.700 come to the clinic to have me help them with their horses But in the helping of 01:06:48.700 --> 01:06:55.765 the with their horses usually they've got a they've got a face Part of themselves. 01:06:55.765 --> 01:06:57.985 They don't normally face it might be giving up control. 01:06:57.985 --> 01:07:02.395 It might be they're too quick to anger It might be they're too timid. 01:07:02.405 --> 01:07:08.555 It might be one of those sorts of things And so I'm gonna go to one of these 01:07:08.555 --> 01:07:11.885 places to this place and I'm gonna spend a couple of days there and help 01:07:11.905 --> 01:07:16.425 They the instructors or whatever you whatever they are the therapists where 01:07:16.425 --> 01:07:19.910 they are show them some things they can do with the horses and the people at the 01:07:19.910 --> 01:07:23.540 same time and actually have the people training the horses, but the people 01:07:23.540 --> 01:07:27.830 will be getting the, the, you know, the personal growth, self reflection 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:32.370 benefit out of it while they, while they are actually helping the horses. 01:07:33.595 --> 01:07:37.395 Be more consistent in their job, you know, because I don't I almost 01:07:37.395 --> 01:07:41.085 don't think you can separate the two I would so agree But these are these 01:07:41.085 --> 01:07:46.485 are you know, these are these people are going to be able bodied and you 01:07:46.485 --> 01:07:48.605 know, I'm not I'm not talking about 01:07:50.725 --> 01:07:54.120 You know if you've if you've got to have Two handlers leading the horse and two 01:07:54.120 --> 01:07:55.920 people holding the person on the horse. 01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:58.010 That's a totally different scenario. 01:07:58.010 --> 01:08:02.250 These are, you know, these are able bodied people. 01:08:02.270 --> 01:08:05.220 So, you know, like I said, I don't know too much about the 01:08:05.220 --> 01:08:06.810 whole Well, for example, when 01:08:06.930 --> 01:08:09.380 Rupert Isaacson: we're in exactly that situation that you just described, 01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:13.310 let's say we've, we've got someone who's not stable and there are. 01:08:13.600 --> 01:08:17.570 A couple of us on either side and we're having to create a very safe 01:08:17.570 --> 01:08:22.680 environment but what I need to do is also create oxytocin for that human's 01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:28.100 nervous system And I need to create BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factor for 01:08:28.100 --> 01:08:35.310 the cognition And I want the horse to be getting its yoga at the same time. 01:08:35.960 --> 01:08:41.435 So I'll be using in hand patterns, long reining patterns, 01:08:41.685 --> 01:08:44.165 while that person's up there. 01:08:44.915 --> 01:08:48.735 We'll be doing the jaw flexions, we'll be helping the horse to flex the neck, 01:08:48.785 --> 01:08:53.995 we'll be doing whatever we can do that we would be doing anyway in a conditioning 01:08:53.995 --> 01:08:55.715 session while the horse is working. 01:08:56.340 --> 01:08:57.980 Warwick Schiller: But it's a, it's a, it's a conditioning 01:08:57.980 --> 01:08:59.760 session, not a training session. 01:08:59.990 --> 01:09:00.160 Exactly. 01:09:00.410 --> 01:09:02.860 You're not, you're not teaching this horse to do this movement. 01:09:02.890 --> 01:09:03.980 No, I'm not going to teach the horse 01:09:03.990 --> 01:09:05.740 Rupert Isaacson: something new while they've got, or they 01:09:05.750 --> 01:09:06.930 have to take care of somebody. 01:09:06.930 --> 01:09:07.080 No. 01:09:07.140 --> 01:09:07.500 Warwick Schiller: Exactly. 01:09:07.630 --> 01:09:07.890 Yeah. 01:09:08.270 --> 01:09:08.560 Yeah. 01:09:09.490 --> 01:09:11.060 Rupert Isaacson: And I think that's actually a very good 01:09:11.060 --> 01:09:11.840 point that you just made. 01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:14.550 There is a big difference between conditioning and training. 01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:16.790 And what gets confusing is they often look quite similar. 01:09:17.340 --> 01:09:19.500 The same exercise could be for either, right? 01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:23.000 You know, rather like martial arts, you could use a certain movement 01:09:23.010 --> 01:09:24.490 of your arm to condition your arm. 01:09:25.165 --> 01:09:26.825 Or to actually learn how to punch. 01:09:27.565 --> 01:09:30.955 It's essentially the same movement, but how you do it. 01:09:31.335 --> 01:09:35.505 And the intention with which you do it, you know, but I think 01:09:35.515 --> 01:09:38.745 the point that you've raised, which I think is really useful is 01:09:41.645 --> 01:09:47.035 where the difficulty with giving up control is, I think, is that what we're 01:09:47.035 --> 01:09:50.975 all taught, what we're all conditioned to when we're small is this idea of 01:09:51.015 --> 01:09:55.005 separation, that we are separate from other things, that we have to separate 01:09:55.005 --> 01:09:58.845 our time, this is work time, this is play time, this is sleep time, this is, 01:09:59.285 --> 01:10:05.245 you know, this is relaxed time, this is alert time, whereas in fact it's, In 01:10:05.245 --> 01:10:06.735 a perfect world, it's much more fluid. 01:10:07.285 --> 01:10:12.545 And one doesn't have to separate out conditioning from the horse 01:10:12.545 --> 01:10:13.995 working, et cetera, et cetera. 01:10:14.215 --> 01:10:16.845 But it's a mental leap, I think for many of us. 01:10:16.865 --> 01:10:22.195 And it was for me to, to not automatically make those separations. 01:10:22.195 --> 01:10:24.945 Like when we're working in schools with our movement method 01:10:24.945 --> 01:10:28.255 program and trying to show. 01:10:29.440 --> 01:10:30.190 A teacher. 01:10:30.250 --> 01:10:32.500 No, you don't have to separate movement from learning. 01:10:32.710 --> 01:10:36.120 You can absolutely do it in the same time, but it's not your fault that 01:10:36.120 --> 01:10:39.210 you think that you have to, because that's always how it's been presented. 01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:41.430 To get over these things is tricky. 01:10:43.460 --> 01:10:47.630 You've talked about sleep deprivation a couple of times in this. 01:10:47.950 --> 01:10:50.770 How often is this something that you're seeing coming up 01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:52.180 Warwick Schiller: with horses? 01:10:52.895 --> 01:10:53.455 Not often. 01:10:53.975 --> 01:10:54.385 Okay. 01:10:55.045 --> 01:10:57.745 And you know, and there's a lot of reason for sleep deprivation. 01:10:57.745 --> 01:11:03.665 The ones that I have, there's been a few of them at clinics that it 01:11:03.675 --> 01:11:07.245 seems That the stuff that I'm doing has helped them with their sleep 01:11:07.245 --> 01:11:12.005 deprivation, but I wasn't trying to help them with sleep deprivation. 01:11:12.005 --> 01:11:16.625 It was more the attunement stuff was more communicating my awareness of 01:11:16.625 --> 01:11:18.915 their awareness that sort of thing. 01:11:19.315 --> 01:11:23.725 You know, there's a, there's a podcast, there's a vet that does a podcast and 01:11:24.315 --> 01:11:25.945 she did an episode on sleep deprivation. 01:11:25.945 --> 01:11:27.835 Someone said, you should listen to this vet on this podcast. 01:11:27.835 --> 01:11:28.465 She's really good. 01:11:28.465 --> 01:11:31.905 So I looked through, I scrolled through the whole list of podcasts you know, her 01:11:31.905 --> 01:11:33.585 episodes and one was on sleep deprivation. 01:11:33.585 --> 01:11:34.125 I thought, well. 01:11:34.690 --> 01:11:36.330 I've had a little bit of experience with that at clinics. 01:11:36.330 --> 01:11:36.950 I'll have a listen. 01:11:37.620 --> 01:11:43.110 And this vet said the only reasons horses have sleep deprivation is from pain. 01:11:44.230 --> 01:11:47.000 And it's from like being sore in their hocks and they can't lay, 01:11:47.050 --> 01:11:49.470 they don't want to lay down because they have a hard time getting up. 01:11:49.540 --> 01:11:55.160 And I'm thinking I didn't inject the hocks of these horses. 01:11:55.390 --> 01:11:57.340 So what I'm saying is I think there's a lot of different 01:11:57.350 --> 01:11:59.230 reason for sleep deprivation. 01:11:59.350 --> 01:11:59.700 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:11:59.980 --> 01:12:01.340 Warwick Schiller: Some of it can be pain. 01:12:01.585 --> 01:12:05.465 I've not encountered those because I didn't do any pain with, you 01:12:05.465 --> 01:12:09.255 know, the, the, the ones that I've encountered and I wasn't trying to 01:12:09.255 --> 01:12:14.235 resolve sleep deprivation, the ones that I've encountered, you know, they 01:12:14.235 --> 01:12:15.965 just had dysregulated nervous systems. 01:12:15.965 --> 01:12:18.415 And that was just the attunement stuff that I was working on 01:12:18.425 --> 01:12:19.565 to make them feel better. 01:12:20.715 --> 01:12:21.495 It just so happened. 01:12:21.495 --> 01:12:25.695 Some of them had helped them with their sleep deprivation that, you know, like 01:12:25.895 --> 01:12:30.245 that Mustang after he laid in and went to sleep, I said, does he do that often? 01:12:30.245 --> 01:12:32.475 So I knew nothing about, he doesn't lay down. 01:12:32.780 --> 01:12:35.710 The other one with the buckling knees, yeah, he was. 01:12:36.240 --> 01:12:39.840 He I knew that he had that problem, but I wasn't trying to resolve that. 01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:42.070 I wasn't trying to resolve that problem. 01:12:42.070 --> 01:12:44.750 So it's not like I'm any expert on sleep deprivation. 01:12:44.750 --> 01:12:50.110 I'm not an expert on much, but most everything I have come up with is all 01:12:50.240 --> 01:12:54.760 pretty being empiric and it's, I, I tend to come to the science from the backend. 01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:55.040 I will, 01:12:57.120 --> 01:13:00.570 maybe I'll intuitively do something with a horse at a clinic and it works and it's. 01:13:00.780 --> 01:13:02.260 Different than anything else I've ever done. 01:13:02.260 --> 01:13:04.860 And then you look at the science and you figure out, Oh yeah. 01:13:04.860 --> 01:13:09.740 Like polyvagal theory, I rejected polyvagal theory for the longest time. 01:13:10.870 --> 01:13:12.860 People said, you should read about polyvagal theory. 01:13:13.100 --> 01:13:14.740 Well, I wasn't interested in a theory. 01:13:14.830 --> 01:13:16.020 I want the facts, man. 01:13:16.660 --> 01:13:17.510 You know what I mean? 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:20.360 But after I started reading about it, I'm like. 01:13:20.990 --> 01:13:22.470 Oh, that's what happened to the Mustang. 01:13:22.650 --> 01:13:23.520 That's what happened with this horse. 01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:24.440 That's what happened with that horse. 01:13:24.930 --> 01:13:29.260 And so I tend to come to the science from the background, bigger things 01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:36.850 that empirically, and then I read stuff that explains scientifically why that 01:13:36.850 --> 01:13:40.710 works, it's, you know, it's kind of like these days scientists, you know, 01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:44.770 like quantum entanglement and all that sort of stuff can explain religion and 01:13:44.780 --> 01:13:47.620 shamanic things in scientific terms. 01:13:47.620 --> 01:13:51.500 But you know, they, they, they were empiric things first. 01:13:51.960 --> 01:13:53.220 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely. 01:13:53.320 --> 01:13:56.450 It's, it's, it's looking at why the thing is happening that we keep 01:13:56.450 --> 01:13:59.700 observing, but we know it's happening because we keep observing it. 01:14:00.090 --> 01:14:02.480 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, and you said, speaking of observing, you said something 01:14:02.480 --> 01:14:09.695 before about People think that their autistic children's outbursts, uh, random, 01:14:09.755 --> 01:14:14.705 but if you're observant and you go, what was going on right before this happened 01:14:14.705 --> 01:14:18.005 and you see things happen enough times, you're like, Oh, I know what triggers it. 01:14:18.005 --> 01:14:23.975 And that's, that's totally empiric, but it's, but it's about being observant. 01:14:23.975 --> 01:14:30.495 So it's about not having a story about what's going on and 01:14:30.495 --> 01:14:31.905 letting what's going on tell you. 01:14:32.940 --> 01:14:33.830 What's going on? 01:14:33.840 --> 01:14:36.570 You know, you and I have had a conversation some other time about a book 01:14:36.570 --> 01:14:44.570 I read by a guy named Charles Foster, who is a British Maybe he's an anthropologist. 01:14:44.570 --> 01:14:51.630 Maybe he's a I forget what he is, but he wrote a book called being a 01:14:51.630 --> 01:14:58.425 human exploration in 50, 000 years of consciousness and He goes, him and his 01:14:58.435 --> 01:15:02.915 son go to the north of England and live in the forests up there as hunter gatherers 01:15:02.925 --> 01:15:04.135 for six months or something like that. 01:15:04.145 --> 01:15:05.545 He was eating hedgehogs. 01:15:05.545 --> 01:15:09.565 And I think there was one time there he spent 11 days without eating anything. 01:15:09.565 --> 01:15:14.535 And the visions that he had from the hunger were like plant medicine journeys, 01:15:14.535 --> 01:15:15.875 but it was just from not eating. 01:15:15.875 --> 01:15:18.775 And, but anyway, one of the things he says in there, he's talking about the 01:15:18.775 --> 01:15:22.505 trees and he said In this book, he says, you know what, I've never really seen 01:15:22.505 --> 01:15:27.355 a tree as a matter of fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anything. 01:15:27.695 --> 01:15:31.255 He said, when I look at a tree, I don't see the tree because I'm a, he's a 01:15:31.265 --> 01:15:32.585 botanist or a naturalist or whatever. 01:15:33.025 --> 01:15:37.245 He says, when I look at a tree, I quantify what type of trees, is it deciduous? 01:15:37.465 --> 01:15:40.685 You know, what sort of things tend to grow around it? 01:15:40.745 --> 01:15:41.725 What, what. 01:15:42.005 --> 01:15:44.095 bugs eats it, what birds live in it. 01:15:44.395 --> 01:15:47.775 But he said, I don't really see the tree because I've got a story about the tree. 01:15:48.085 --> 01:15:53.195 And he said, I once met a man who could see a tree and it scared me so much. 01:15:53.215 --> 01:15:57.715 I left that temple, took a bus back to Kathmandu and flew 01:15:57.745 --> 01:15:59.355 straight home from the airport. 01:15:59.605 --> 01:16:02.285 And so he's talking about someone who could. 01:16:03.175 --> 01:16:06.915 See exactly what's in front of him without a story attached to it. 01:16:06.915 --> 01:16:08.935 And I feel like with the horses, 01:16:11.035 --> 01:16:14.445 part of this attunement thing is getting to the point to where you can just see 01:16:14.445 --> 01:16:19.695 what they're telling you without your own, without your own story attached to it. 01:16:19.705 --> 01:16:22.365 Cause I think there's a, there's a, there's a vibration 01:16:22.385 --> 01:16:24.895 and an energy to your story. 01:16:25.965 --> 01:16:30.935 And that's the thing I, I can't you know, you can't give somebody 01:16:32.235 --> 01:16:35.615 that they've almost got to, they've almost got to be able. 01:16:36.065 --> 01:16:37.545 Got to kind of work on that themselves. 01:16:38.115 --> 01:16:40.375 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we are the storytelling ape after all, we 01:16:40.375 --> 01:16:43.775 can't help it, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's also the best 01:16:43.775 --> 01:16:45.085 side of us, that's our healing. 01:16:45.535 --> 01:16:45.765 Yeah. 01:16:45.805 --> 01:16:51.255 But your original point, which is that basically what you're trying 01:16:51.255 --> 01:16:52.195 to do is make horses feel safe. 01:16:54.105 --> 01:16:56.885 If they feel heard, if they feel seen, i. 01:16:56.895 --> 01:16:56.945 e. 01:16:57.065 --> 01:17:00.285 observed, listened to, this kind of deep listening, they will feel safe. 01:17:00.285 --> 01:17:02.805 If they feel safe, then if they need to sleep, they can sleep. 01:17:02.805 --> 01:17:04.725 If they need to do this, they can do it. 01:17:04.745 --> 01:17:11.265 And then they can return to their sort of appropriate nervous system behavior. 01:17:11.575 --> 01:17:12.425 Well being. 01:17:12.455 --> 01:17:13.795 Well being, I suppose. 01:17:15.165 --> 01:17:17.405 There's been a couple of people that I work with. 01:17:17.745 --> 01:17:23.315 In our programs who've been doing Warwick Schiller achievement stuff 01:17:23.325 --> 01:17:27.765 for a while, and they report back to me that it really helps them, 01:17:27.765 --> 01:17:30.525 not just in the horse side, but it really helps them in the human side. 01:17:30.865 --> 01:17:34.455 One of them is a mutual friend of ours, somebody called Leanna Tank, 01:17:34.975 --> 01:17:39.165 who I'm looking forward to when you interview her because, as you know, 01:17:39.165 --> 01:17:43.635 she works in the criminal justice system in Michigan with people who 01:17:43.645 --> 01:17:50.555 have, Often committed quite monstrous crimes, the most atrocious of crimes. 01:17:50.565 --> 01:17:52.065 The most atrocious of crimes. 01:17:52.755 --> 01:17:55.225 But who were acquitted for reasons of insanity. 01:17:55.225 --> 01:18:01.685 So we're not talking about psychopaths who were delightedly planning it and 01:18:02.155 --> 01:18:03.865 laughing about it or anything like that. 01:18:03.865 --> 01:18:08.205 We're talking about people who were under extraordinary psychosis or 01:18:11.435 --> 01:18:12.925 such great distress or whatever. 01:18:13.295 --> 01:18:15.465 That this thing happened. 01:18:16.125 --> 01:18:23.515 And I've often asked her why is it Leanna that you can do this work over years 01:18:24.035 --> 01:18:28.410 and hang out in this situation where people it's not that Other people's 01:18:28.410 --> 01:18:34.860 lives have really suffered their own lifers, you know, and they're in 01:18:35.350 --> 01:18:46.090 lockdowns and you come in and You seem to be able to not lose your likeness of 01:18:46.090 --> 01:18:52.740 heart and at the same time you seem to be able to impart Some of that to help 01:18:52.740 --> 01:18:57.590 bring back quality of life and some degree of wellbeing to people who've 01:18:57.590 --> 01:19:00.470 lost a wellbeing and whose society might say do not deserve wellbeing. 01:19:01.770 --> 01:19:04.440 And she said, well, you know, a lot of the attunement stuff with 01:19:04.440 --> 01:19:06.090 Warwick actually helped me with this. 01:19:06.300 --> 01:19:09.090 She said, I wasn't actually maybe quite as, as, I think she always had a 01:19:09.090 --> 01:19:15.300 predisposition for it, obviously, but she said, I, I started really looking at. 01:19:18.510 --> 01:19:22.630 where their eyes were going, or really listening to what they were talking about, 01:19:22.640 --> 01:19:28.510 or really beginning to ask them things like stuff about their taste in music, and 01:19:28.510 --> 01:19:33.030 stuff about their taste in art, and she said what happened, and then taking them 01:19:33.030 --> 01:19:38.370 out into nature and realizing that, rather like the horse that you were describing, 01:19:38.370 --> 01:19:42.180 sort of suddenly looking off into the distance, people who hadn't been out for 01:19:42.180 --> 01:19:49.045 a long time, and they'd suddenly start doing this sort of thing, and Then she'd 01:19:49.045 --> 01:19:54.055 look where they were looking and think, well, are they looking at the clouds? 01:19:54.055 --> 01:19:54.275 Right. 01:19:54.275 --> 01:19:58.895 So making an observation about that and then the person, yes, yes, I 01:19:58.905 --> 01:20:04.335 think it is coming on to rain and this creating human connection, but I think. 01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:06.480 It does come down to safety. 01:20:09.070 --> 01:20:14.630 If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then 01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:19.630 you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system. 01:20:20.095 --> 01:20:21.405 of dressage training. 01:20:21.445 --> 01:20:30.015 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:20:30.085 --> 01:20:36.365 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:20:36.375 --> 01:20:42.895 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:20:42.945 --> 01:20:45.715 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:20:45.775 --> 01:20:46.515 Intrigued? 01:20:46.715 --> 01:20:47.575 Like to know more? 01:20:48.445 --> 01:20:51.275 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:20:52.975 --> 01:20:54.665 Check out the free introduction course. 01:20:55.225 --> 01:20:55.745 Take it from there. 01:20:56.249 --> 01:20:57.769 Warwick Schiller: Can I just interrupt right there? 01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:00.879 There's a lady who's been to several of my clinics in Texas. 01:21:01.309 --> 01:21:02.059 And she's a 01:21:02.119 --> 01:21:05.679 she works in a juvenile psych ward. 01:21:06.809 --> 01:21:09.819 And she's some sort of a social worker, I think, you know, 01:21:09.839 --> 01:21:10.949 like a juvenile psych ward. 01:21:10.949 --> 01:21:13.519 And the last time I saw her, I said, I said, how's work, you know? 01:21:13.719 --> 01:21:15.219 Cause she had told me some interesting stories. 01:21:15.219 --> 01:21:15.789 I said, how's work? 01:21:15.789 --> 01:21:17.229 She goes, Oh, it's, it's terrible. 01:21:17.689 --> 01:21:19.299 You know, it's been really hard. 01:21:19.299 --> 01:21:23.539 She said, we've had, we've had kids in there as young as the. 01:21:24.039 --> 01:21:28.129 Who've been trafficked, some of them from as young as the age of four. 01:21:29.389 --> 01:21:32.409 And I'm like, Oh my God, where do you even start? 01:21:32.659 --> 01:21:33.489 Like they've got to be, 01:21:36.089 --> 01:21:37.489 you know, so broken. 01:21:37.929 --> 01:21:39.059 I said, where do you even start? 01:21:39.059 --> 01:21:40.849 And she said, well, most of them are nonverbal. 01:21:41.759 --> 01:21:46.319 And she said, the room we have each of them in has like two twin beds, 01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:49.269 one on either side, you know, but they don't put two people in the same room. 01:21:49.269 --> 01:21:52.749 And she said, a lot of times these kids will just curl up on their bed 01:21:52.749 --> 01:21:54.079 in the corner and face the wall. 01:21:54.399 --> 01:21:55.059 And she said. 01:21:55.264 --> 01:21:58.994 How, and you can't speak to them, speaking to them makes them cower. 01:21:59.534 --> 01:22:01.174 You know, you can't look directly at them. 01:22:01.174 --> 01:22:02.484 She said, where we start. 01:22:03.014 --> 01:22:05.674 And this is, you know, this is like what Temple Green had told you 01:22:05.674 --> 01:22:10.764 with, with Rowan, it's a type of following, but it's just mirroring. 01:22:10.974 --> 01:22:13.604 She said, if they're curled up in the corner on their bed, you 01:22:13.604 --> 01:22:16.304 go and curl up on the other bed, the same way they're curled up. 01:22:16.334 --> 01:22:20.914 And if they move their posture at all, you move your posture the same way. 01:22:20.914 --> 01:22:22.424 And you're telling them two things. 01:22:22.764 --> 01:22:25.134 And one of the things you're telling them is I don't want anything from you. 01:22:26.069 --> 01:22:28.769 I'm not going to approach you, I'm not going to come anywhere near, 01:22:28.769 --> 01:22:30.029 I don't want anything from you. 01:22:30.509 --> 01:22:34.319 But the other thing you're doing is communicating, I'm very aware of 01:22:34.319 --> 01:22:35.699 how you're feeling about everything. 01:22:37.064 --> 01:22:39.634 And you know, I'm very aware of where your posture, what your posture looks 01:22:39.634 --> 01:22:43.564 like and I adjust my, and after a while, she said those that's, that's 01:22:43.584 --> 01:22:46.384 the in, they'll actually start to 01:22:48.584 --> 01:22:49.934 let you in just a little bit. 01:22:49.934 --> 01:22:54.644 And like that horse that, that, you know, that had the sleep deprivation when he 01:22:54.644 --> 01:22:58.394 used to buckle at the knees that lay down at the clinic, that's what the, all 01:22:58.414 --> 01:23:00.994 that was about was having him let us. 01:23:01.409 --> 01:23:06.029 In, but you couldn't ask him to do anything to, he wasn't letting you in 01:23:06.149 --> 01:23:11.399 and the more you asked him, the more he'd figuratively literally figuratively 01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:13.709 curl up in the corner, like one of these kids would, you know what I mean? 01:23:13.739 --> 01:23:15.559 And he wouldn't, he wouldn't do that. 01:23:15.559 --> 01:23:19.639 He just stood there with no expression on his face sort of thing, you know, 01:23:20.159 --> 01:23:23.359 but pressure didn't do anything to him cause he wasn't letting anybody in. 01:23:23.919 --> 01:23:28.099 And so, yeah, I, I feel like when she told me that. 01:23:29.394 --> 01:23:31.024 What they do with those kids. 01:23:31.024 --> 01:23:33.694 It's like yeah, that's that's mirroring and you know, you know 01:23:33.694 --> 01:23:38.534 about mirror neurons and how all that stuff works But you know, not 01:23:38.544 --> 01:23:40.824 Rupert Isaacson: everyone listening does talk to us about mirror neurons. 01:23:40.854 --> 01:23:44.254 Warwick Schiller: No No, you I don't know much about it except it seems to 01:23:44.264 --> 01:23:48.694 be that you know Like if you if you're a salesman, they'll tell you if you want 01:23:48.694 --> 01:23:53.664 to make a sale Adopt the posture of the person you're talking to if they fold 01:23:53.664 --> 01:23:56.074 their arms you fold your arms if you put your feet a certain Way put your 01:23:56.074 --> 01:23:59.774 feet a certain way and and there's a subconscious thing people pick up on that. 01:23:59.784 --> 01:24:05.404 You're kind of getting them That that's a manipulative way of doing it, you know, 01:24:05.474 --> 01:24:10.404 you're like in the sales world, but So I don't really know not this is you know, 01:24:10.404 --> 01:24:14.354 this is all empiric for me to like hear about the science afterwards But there is 01:24:14.354 --> 01:24:20.099 something about These things called mirror neurons that recognize when people are 01:24:20.109 --> 01:24:26.939 mirroring you in it And I I feel like the the whole thing behind it is it it creates 01:24:26.939 --> 01:24:29.279 a level of connection if I'm not mistaken 01:24:30.149 --> 01:24:32.929 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, you know often when I'm dealing with someone who's 01:24:32.929 --> 01:24:34.869 nonverbal, let's say they're in the saddle 01:24:37.039 --> 01:24:38.799 I'm not trying to get anything from him, right? 01:24:39.259 --> 01:24:46.689 But I am providing for example conversation but not conversation where 01:24:46.719 --> 01:24:51.779 I want them to converse with me And the conversation can be, I'm following what 01:24:51.779 --> 01:24:56.639 I know they're interested in, say for example, laminated cutouts in the trees. 01:24:57.049 --> 01:24:59.029 But equally, I could be 01:24:59.089 --> 01:25:04.729 simply looking where they look and trying to mirror their emotional state. 01:25:04.859 --> 01:25:09.329 Not if it's heightened, but for example, if it's very calm, 01:25:11.739 --> 01:25:13.289 then I just want to be very calm with them. 01:25:15.834 --> 01:25:22.884 If they're flapping and moving a lot, but it seems to be happy, I'm more animated. 01:25:24.784 --> 01:25:32.524 If they seem fearful, I try to be, to project just a feeling of, I am safety, 01:25:32.894 --> 01:25:34.364 but I can't do much more than that. 01:25:35.724 --> 01:25:38.944 And I can trust to the horse and the horse's motion and the nature around 01:25:38.944 --> 01:25:40.564 us to kind of do the job, right? 01:25:41.034 --> 01:25:43.794 I'm just really providing a way. 01:25:44.264 --> 01:25:44.764 To do that. 01:25:44.924 --> 01:25:50.404 But as you said, you know, what tends to happen if, if, if I do that is a 01:25:50.404 --> 01:25:55.334 relationship builds where at a certain point that person will reach out. 01:25:55.434 --> 01:25:56.464 It can take a while though. 01:25:56.474 --> 01:25:58.204 It can take many sessions. 01:25:58.204 --> 01:26:00.664 It's, it's might happen in that sessions. 01:26:00.924 --> 01:26:02.504 And you were talking about mirror neurons. 01:26:03.054 --> 01:26:05.504 I'm just looking it up so that we can get it straight. 01:26:05.534 --> 01:26:07.174 It says here on Dr. 01:26:07.174 --> 01:26:14.734 Google, mirror neurons are a class of neuron that modulate their activity. 01:26:15.839 --> 01:26:21.849 Both when an individual executes a specific motor act, so a movement, and 01:26:21.849 --> 01:26:27.869 when they observe the same or similar act performed by another individual. 01:26:28.419 --> 01:26:30.549 I'm just thinking what, what does that mean? 01:26:30.549 --> 01:26:33.209 And I'm, I'm thinking about like a healing ritual. 01:26:33.759 --> 01:26:37.239 So if we were, if you and I went into, we have been in a healing ritual 01:26:37.239 --> 01:26:43.164 together, but let's say we were in one that Involved think about actually 01:26:43.214 --> 01:26:44.434 that's actually not a bad thing. 01:26:44.614 --> 01:26:47.604 You and I found ourselves a few years ago in a sweat lodge. 01:26:49.324 --> 01:26:53.554 And we didn't really know the protocol. 01:26:54.344 --> 01:26:57.924 We were being told a little bit what to do, but we were observing everyone in 01:26:57.924 --> 01:27:01.934 there was observing each other and we could all pick up from each other's cues. 01:27:03.294 --> 01:27:07.634 And it didn't take long before we were all breathing in sync and chanting in sync. 01:27:08.504 --> 01:27:09.104 And 01:27:11.164 --> 01:27:12.834 rocking a little bit in sync. 01:27:14.114 --> 01:27:16.384 Warwick Schiller: And what was really interesting is one of our major 01:27:16.394 --> 01:27:18.156 senses was not available to us. 01:27:18.156 --> 01:27:18.780 That's true. 01:27:18.780 --> 01:27:20.724 It was pitch dark. 01:27:20.754 --> 01:27:23.674 We couldn't see, but there was that. 01:27:24.054 --> 01:27:29.604 So it's not just a, it's not just a mirror as in there's got to 01:27:29.604 --> 01:27:30.614 be an energetic thing to it too. 01:27:30.644 --> 01:27:33.674 Cause we ended up all doing the same thing, but we couldn't see each other. 01:27:33.674 --> 01:27:35.024 We could feel each other. 01:27:35.439 --> 01:27:39.399 We could sense where everybody was in the sweat lodge, 01:27:41.999 --> 01:27:44.999 you know, we can hear each other's breathing that sort of thing. 01:27:45.139 --> 01:27:45.159 Yeah. 01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:47.619 So it was, it was quite interesting. 01:27:47.619 --> 01:27:48.439 And it's interesting. 01:27:48.439 --> 01:27:51.449 You were talking about looking where they look, you know, that seems to 01:27:51.469 --> 01:27:58.079 be very helpful with the horses is when they get a bit concerned, look 01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:01.129 at what they're looking at and it's. 01:28:02.749 --> 01:28:06.139 I think, I think there's a couple of things to it. 01:28:07.039 --> 01:28:09.249 One of the things is you, as far as attunement is 01:28:09.249 --> 01:28:10.759 you're, you're communicating. 01:28:10.759 --> 01:28:11.029 Yes. 01:28:11.089 --> 01:28:13.639 I'm aware that you see something that could be a danger. 01:28:14.999 --> 01:28:20.849 Like I noticed you noticing, but the thing you have to do when you look at 01:28:20.849 --> 01:28:25.919 it, it's just like you said, if mirroring children, if they're fearful, you 01:28:25.919 --> 01:28:29.069 have to have that, that calm presence. 01:28:29.069 --> 01:28:32.669 So if a horse, you know, if a horse puts their head up and looks at 01:28:32.669 --> 01:28:35.269 something that they're concerned about, I will look at it too. 01:28:36.469 --> 01:28:40.639 Like I notice you notice that thing and I see it but then I'm 01:28:40.639 --> 01:28:44.169 projecting that calm energy like I see it But it's not gonna hurt us. 01:28:44.189 --> 01:28:44.429 It's 01:28:44.449 --> 01:28:46.189 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I'm not gonna mirror your fear 01:28:46.599 --> 01:28:49.099 Warwick Schiller: I'm not gonna mirror your fear, but I will look at what you're 01:28:49.099 --> 01:28:54.959 looking at, but I will project a a Level of or I'll project a lack of concern 01:28:54.959 --> 01:28:59.159 about it But that's totally different than not looking at all because not looking 01:28:59.159 --> 01:29:05.594 at all tells them I didn't notice you looking at it And I didn't even notice it. 01:29:05.704 --> 01:29:07.944 And so you're communicating your lack of awareness of 01:29:07.944 --> 01:29:10.904 stuff, of stuff, of stuff there. 01:29:10.904 --> 01:29:16.084 So that's, that's one of the things I will do is, is, but I'll only do that 01:29:17.994 --> 01:29:24.854 unless it gets their anxiety gets so far gone that they need to move their feet. 01:29:24.874 --> 01:29:28.114 And then I'll redirect, then I'll redirect their thoughts so that their 01:29:28.114 --> 01:29:31.944 minds back with their feet, you know, what I like to call their presence. 01:29:31.944 --> 01:29:33.905 So their mind and their body are in the same place at the same 01:29:33.905 --> 01:29:34.087 Rupert Isaacson: time. 01:29:34.087 --> 01:29:35.539 Talk to me about how you do that. 01:29:36.349 --> 01:29:38.439 Warwick Schiller: Ah, well usually it's, you know, usually it's, this 01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:42.389 would be if you were, if you were, you know, if they're on line, they're 01:29:42.389 --> 01:29:48.089 on a lead rope and I will, if they've got to move their feet and walk off, 01:29:48.109 --> 01:29:50.699 I'll let them walk as far as they get to the end of the lead rope. 01:29:50.699 --> 01:29:53.119 I have like a, you know, 12 foot lead rope. 01:29:55.189 --> 01:29:59.399 If they get to the end of the lead rope, and this is where the training part comes 01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:03.379 in, they walk off and get to where they take the slack out of the lead rope. 01:30:03.379 --> 01:30:08.029 But as they, as the slack comes out of that lead rope, I usually have a little 01:30:08.039 --> 01:30:13.619 flag, I'll As the slack comes out of the lead rope, I'll kind of wave that flag a 01:30:13.619 --> 01:30:17.049 bit, probably towards their flank, but I'm not trying to move them over, I'm trying 01:30:17.049 --> 01:30:20.649 to have them think back down along their body, and so I'm really trying to get 01:30:20.649 --> 01:30:23.949 their mind connected to the lead rope, to where as when I pick up on the lead 01:30:23.949 --> 01:30:27.829 rope, any time they feel pressure on the lead rope, their mind follows it, I'm 01:30:27.829 --> 01:30:31.184 not really trying to get their body to follow it, their body follows their and I 01:30:31.184 --> 01:30:32.914 want their mind to follow that lead rope. 01:30:32.914 --> 01:30:39.714 So right there, I'd be, you know, they're, they're leaving, they're heading off away 01:30:39.714 --> 01:30:44.294 from me because their mind, their thought was so strong, it pulled their body. 01:30:44.784 --> 01:30:48.064 With it and when they get to the lead rope What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna redirect 01:30:48.064 --> 01:30:51.434 their attention back to the present So now their mind and their body are back 01:30:51.434 --> 01:30:55.004 in the same place at the same time, you know No different than if someone was 01:30:55.104 --> 01:31:00.384 experienced, you know, let's say I was with someone who said well, you know what? 01:31:00.564 --> 01:31:02.324 I'm like, I'm like, how you going? 01:31:02.324 --> 01:31:05.604 Like, oh, well, I've got this really really busy meeting tomorrow And 01:31:05.604 --> 01:31:06.904 and I'm afraid I might mess it up. 01:31:06.904 --> 01:31:09.774 And you know, so they're Their, their body's in today, but their mind's 01:31:09.774 --> 01:31:13.024 in tomorrow and they're thinking about, you know, some presentation 01:31:13.024 --> 01:31:16.004 they've got to do, I might say, Hey, let's do a little exercise. 01:31:16.014 --> 01:31:18.714 I want you to, I want you to cast your eyes around and 01:31:18.714 --> 01:31:20.464 name five things you can see. 01:31:22.079 --> 01:31:24.729 And now I want you to name four things you can hear. 01:31:26.039 --> 01:31:28.599 And then I want you to name three things you can feel. 01:31:29.829 --> 01:31:31.889 And I want you to name two things you can smell. 01:31:32.879 --> 01:31:35.329 And then one thing you can, one thing you can taste. 01:31:35.669 --> 01:31:40.119 And when they do that, their mind leaves tomorrow's presentation 01:31:40.129 --> 01:31:41.969 and comes back to the present. 01:31:42.309 --> 01:31:45.639 So all that, all that is right there is I'm just, with the horses, I'm just 01:31:45.669 --> 01:31:48.179 basically doing a little cognitive behavior therapy thing, getting 01:31:48.179 --> 01:31:52.049 their mind and their body back in the same place at the same time. 01:31:52.874 --> 01:31:56.264 But I'll only, I'll only interrupt that if their thoughts get so strong, 01:31:56.264 --> 01:32:01.704 their feet move and their feet move enough to where they get to, to the end 01:32:01.704 --> 01:32:03.244 of the, to the end of the lead rope. 01:32:05.314 --> 01:32:08.384 Rupert Isaacson: I could see that being a very very good exercise 01:32:08.464 --> 01:32:14.904 with certain people in the therapeutic writing environment to 01:32:18.494 --> 01:32:20.884 particularly people, you know, where there's a lot of anxiety. 01:32:21.044 --> 01:32:24.234 Because what's, what I love about what you just said there, there's nothing, there's 01:32:24.234 --> 01:32:25.884 nothing essentially triggering in that. 01:32:26.269 --> 01:32:27.539 It's just, no, it's not, 01:32:27.539 --> 01:32:28.639 Warwick Schiller: it's not that you're wrong. 01:32:28.649 --> 01:32:29.569 You're not wrong. 01:32:29.569 --> 01:32:31.359 It's not that you shouldn't be doing that. 01:32:31.819 --> 01:32:36.699 It's just a redirect and a redirection of their, their focus. 01:32:36.699 --> 01:32:38.399 Cause they're very focused on yourself when you're 01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:38.929 Rupert Isaacson: anxious. 01:32:39.029 --> 01:32:39.169 I 01:32:42.029 --> 01:32:43.529 Warwick Schiller: don't get anxious that often. 01:32:44.039 --> 01:32:46.939 But yeah, no, it's, it's, and that's something that, you know, my wife 01:32:47.219 --> 01:32:50.399 teaches that one quite a bit, the, the five, you know, she calls it 01:32:50.399 --> 01:32:52.759 the, the five things exercise. 01:32:53.329 --> 01:32:54.799 Yeah, it's just really good at bringing. 01:32:55.859 --> 01:32:56.059 Where 01:32:56.059 --> 01:32:57.499 Rupert Isaacson: did, where did Robin get that one from? 01:32:57.499 --> 01:32:57.589 Do you know? 01:32:59.714 --> 01:33:02.324 Warwick Schiller: Possibly from she's certified in something called neurofit. 01:33:02.364 --> 01:33:03.224 Maybe it came from there. 01:33:03.224 --> 01:33:03.694 I'm not sure. 01:33:03.694 --> 01:33:08.714 It's, it's, it's, it's a pretty common, I think neurofit behavior therapy, neurofit. 01:33:09.114 --> 01:33:09.524 Yeah. 01:33:09.774 --> 01:33:10.624 Worth looking into. 01:33:11.174 --> 01:33:15.024 It's, I think it's a pretty common sort of a. 01:33:16.034 --> 01:33:17.974 You know, cognitive behavior therapy thing. 01:33:17.984 --> 01:33:21.054 I was, I was going to some group therapy years ago and they were talking about 01:33:21.074 --> 01:33:23.084 this thing that they call the half smile. 01:33:23.524 --> 01:33:25.844 And they said, if you start to get in your head and get a bit anxious about 01:33:25.844 --> 01:33:28.864 something or other, do this half smile. 01:33:28.864 --> 01:33:32.694 And what the half smile involves is tightening up the muscles around 01:33:32.694 --> 01:33:36.934 your mouth to where you engage the muscles that would make a smile. 01:33:37.374 --> 01:33:40.874 Except if someone was watching you, they couldn't see it happen. 01:33:40.904 --> 01:33:42.034 So it's not a smile. 01:33:42.749 --> 01:33:43.839 It's less than a smile. 01:33:43.839 --> 01:33:45.519 It's like a half hold versus a hold. 01:33:45.519 --> 01:33:47.819 It's like this little engagement of these muscles. 01:33:48.439 --> 01:33:50.519 And I said, what is the physiological thing? 01:33:50.529 --> 01:33:53.089 What, what, what, what's the physiological thing that will 01:33:53.089 --> 01:33:55.419 make you calmer when you do that? 01:33:55.439 --> 01:33:59.544 And these, the two therapists couldn't tell me and I said, Is there a 01:33:59.544 --> 01:34:07.054 physiological thing or is it such a subtle movement You really have to focus on doing 01:34:07.054 --> 01:34:11.474 it and you have to let go of whatever you were worried about Whereas if it was 01:34:11.474 --> 01:34:15.834 a full smile You can that you can just whack on your face and not even think 01:34:15.834 --> 01:34:20.694 about it Your mind does not have to leave that other thing in order to do this. 01:34:20.954 --> 01:34:21.314 You ready? 01:34:21.629 --> 01:34:23.009 Ruid, here we go. 01:34:23.789 --> 01:34:25.409 You know, big old cheesy grin. 01:34:25.589 --> 01:34:26.729 You don't have to think about that. 01:34:26.729 --> 01:34:28.859 You can think about something else and do the cheesy grin. 01:34:29.839 --> 01:34:33.319 Rupert Isaacson: Also, the che, the cheesy grin could be gritting my teeth. 01:34:33.319 --> 01:34:34.759 It's almost gritting your teeth too. 01:34:34.759 --> 01:34:38.349 Warwick Schiller: But the other thing is, but this half smile, you 01:34:38.349 --> 01:34:42.099 actually have to constant because the thing is no one can see you do it. 01:34:43.329 --> 01:34:43.779 Right. 01:34:43.919 --> 01:34:47.249 If, if someone can see you doing it, you did it too big and so you've really got 01:34:47.249 --> 01:34:50.009 to get, go within and really think of it. 01:34:50.299 --> 01:34:53.939 So I think that's, I think a lot of those things do that is they just, 01:34:54.489 --> 01:35:00.099 they're exercises that take your mind off what you're concerned about 01:35:00.129 --> 01:35:02.549 and put it more in the present. 01:35:03.359 --> 01:35:05.669 Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking up half smiles again on Dr. 01:35:05.669 --> 01:35:06.699 Google as with, Oh, 01:35:07.039 --> 01:35:08.809 Warwick Schiller: is there a thing called a half smile on Dr. 01:35:08.809 --> 01:35:08.859 Google? 01:35:08.859 --> 01:35:09.519 There is a thing. 01:35:09.529 --> 01:35:10.519 Rupert Isaacson: It's a, it's a whole thing. 01:35:10.539 --> 01:35:11.629 And it seems to be. 01:35:12.964 --> 01:35:16.114 The first thing that comes to us is dialectical behavior therapy 01:35:16.124 --> 01:35:21.324 skill, half smile technique, engaging the facial muscles that are 01:35:21.384 --> 01:35:23.164 associated with positive emotions. 01:35:23.164 --> 01:35:24.624 It can help reduce feelings of stress. 01:35:24.894 --> 01:35:29.174 I'm just wondering though what, I might need to look into it. 01:35:29.729 --> 01:35:31.979 To see what chemicals are actually going on. 01:35:32.089 --> 01:35:35.229 I wonder if it's a small serotonin release, even. 01:35:35.659 --> 01:35:37.029 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, well that's, that was my question. 01:35:37.029 --> 01:35:40.389 Is, is, is there an actual physiological thing going on? 01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:45.509 Or is it just, is it just something so minutely technical that you have 01:35:45.509 --> 01:35:47.459 to, you have to think about it? 01:35:51.044 --> 01:35:53.564 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, it is a serotonin release, apparently. 01:35:53.564 --> 01:35:54.134 It is a serotonin, 01:35:54.144 --> 01:35:55.224 Warwick Schiller: okay, there you go. 01:35:55.304 --> 01:35:56.014 Look at that. 01:35:56.324 --> 01:36:01.734 So imagine there's that too, but there's also the And it relaxes your heart rate. 01:36:02.294 --> 01:36:03.564 Rupert Isaacson: Lowers your blood pressure. 01:36:04.344 --> 01:36:04.604 Warwick Schiller: Okay, 01:36:04.664 --> 01:36:05.084 Rupert Isaacson: there you go. 01:36:06.454 --> 01:36:06.764 Warwick Schiller: The half 01:36:06.764 --> 01:36:07.134 Rupert Isaacson: smile. 01:36:08.894 --> 01:36:14.444 Well, you know, jaw flexions, as you know, with horses, the, you know, the 01:36:14.444 --> 01:36:18.644 key to the back being the front, if the jaw is tense, where everything 01:36:18.644 --> 01:36:20.394 is tense, same in people, right? 01:36:20.694 --> 01:36:28.129 So frequently If I need to get people to relax, I'll have a bunch of silly stuff 01:36:28.129 --> 01:36:34.009 that I do which involves making stupid sounds and being consciously stupid. 01:36:34.119 --> 01:36:35.739 Because it just relaxes the jaw. 01:36:37.539 --> 01:36:40.079 Because our jaws get so tight so fast. 01:36:40.899 --> 01:36:46.079 Letting go of that sympathetic response that we're in. 01:36:46.629 --> 01:36:50.029 Listening to you talk, you know, you're talking about clinic, 01:36:50.879 --> 01:36:53.399 clinicking and workshop settings. 01:36:53.899 --> 01:37:00.659 And where one sees changes happening sometimes relatively quickly and in 01:37:00.659 --> 01:37:04.899 therapy sessions, equine assisted sessions, similar things can happen. 01:37:05.179 --> 01:37:09.649 But one of the things that springs to mind is, just as we were talking about 01:37:09.649 --> 01:37:15.669 how Many horses and most people don't get to live in the way that our organisms 01:37:15.709 --> 01:37:20.609 are designed for anymore And you were talking about that undirected movement 01:37:20.649 --> 01:37:23.489 and then you said things like well horses don't really go sideways in nature I say 01:37:23.619 --> 01:37:26.949 actually no But they do I've seen them like walking up the side of the fence 01:37:26.949 --> 01:37:31.399 that way and they'll absolutely cross their legs But they're not doing it 01:37:33.489 --> 01:37:34.079 But that's that's 01:37:34.554 --> 01:37:37.074 Warwick Schiller: That's, that's anxiety and, and there's also a 01:37:37.074 --> 01:37:39.924 human built structure in there. 01:37:39.954 --> 01:37:40.634 It might or 01:37:40.634 --> 01:37:41.444 Rupert Isaacson: might not be. 01:37:41.444 --> 01:37:41.959 Well, 01:37:41.959 --> 01:37:44.874 Warwick Schiller: I'm talking about, someone's trying to ride a horse in 01:37:44.874 --> 01:37:47.604 a circle to the left and the horse is running its shoulder out to the right. 01:37:47.624 --> 01:37:48.004 I got it. 01:37:48.204 --> 01:37:51.254 The horse wants to go right, he's going to go right, he's not going to go sideways. 01:37:51.614 --> 01:37:52.984 I get it. 01:37:53.144 --> 01:37:54.194 There's no one trying to control 01:37:54.194 --> 01:37:55.024 Rupert Isaacson: it. 01:37:55.204 --> 01:37:56.844 It's the no one's trying to control it thing. 01:37:57.724 --> 01:37:57.764 Yes. 01:37:58.124 --> 01:37:58.704 So. 01:37:59.014 --> 01:38:02.764 Let's take the fence away and the horse isn't stressed. 01:38:02.764 --> 01:38:04.914 Let's say there's just some sort of natural barrier there. 01:38:04.914 --> 01:38:06.374 I don't know, like rocks or. 01:38:07.509 --> 01:38:09.049 Brush, and they're 01:38:09.049 --> 01:38:12.789 Warwick Schiller: noticing, but the, but their body will, their 01:38:12.789 --> 01:38:15.729 body will be set up to do the thing they're trying to do exactly. 01:38:15.729 --> 01:38:18.209 Mind and their body will not be separated, but you see someone 01:38:18.209 --> 01:38:20.769 trying to ride a 20 meter circle to the left and the horse's mind is 01:38:20.769 --> 01:38:21.949 trying to drag him off to the right. 01:38:21.949 --> 01:38:24.559 But the horse is doing a 20 meter circle left while they're 01:38:24.559 --> 01:38:25.539 wishing that was somewhere else. 01:38:25.999 --> 01:38:26.949 That doesn't happen in nature. 01:38:26.949 --> 01:38:29.649 If a horse wants to be over there, he'll go over there. 01:38:30.049 --> 01:38:30.609 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 01:38:31.489 --> 01:38:32.589 As will a human, right? 01:38:33.849 --> 01:38:39.149 So a natural living human will also follow where their intentions and thoughts 01:38:39.309 --> 01:38:40.659 are because we're hunter gatherers. 01:38:41.559 --> 01:38:47.819 I guess that's that that's what springs to mind from what you're saying is the really 01:38:49.879 --> 01:38:52.859 natural way to be on a horse if one can ever say there is a natural way to be 01:38:52.859 --> 01:38:56.289 on a horse because obviously God didn't Make horses to carry monkeys and monkeys 01:38:56.779 --> 01:38:58.409 getting on horses as a monkey idea. 01:38:58.409 --> 01:39:04.459 Okay, fine, but maybe we are God I don't know but what I'm sure 01:39:04.469 --> 01:39:08.089 you've noticed and you know, you came back from the Gaucho Derby. 01:39:08.589 --> 01:39:13.689 And what I've noticed in long journeys on horseback that I've made, Mongolia's 01:39:13.719 --> 01:39:18.569 one, or all of the hunting that I did growing up, which are always kind of 01:39:18.659 --> 01:39:24.729 eight hour days on horseback, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, is that it's 01:39:24.729 --> 01:39:28.419 a saying, you know, as you know, the horse that you have in hour three is 01:39:28.449 --> 01:39:34.209 not the horse you had in hour one, and the horse you have by hour five is, 01:39:34.229 --> 01:39:36.639 there's just no separation, you just are. 01:39:36.639 --> 01:39:37.409 Yeah. 01:39:37.409 --> 01:39:37.959 And. 01:39:40.289 --> 01:39:45.839 whether it's in family systems, social systems, client based systems, 01:39:45.929 --> 01:39:51.609 healing systems, riding systems, we just don't get the time, you know. 01:39:53.139 --> 01:39:55.859 Let's say someone comes in and says oh, I've got this problem. 01:39:55.979 --> 01:39:58.839 Exactly what you're saying there They are in that 20 meter circle, but the 01:39:58.839 --> 01:40:03.639 horse's head is over, thoughts are over there, shoulders falling out Therefore 01:40:03.639 --> 01:40:06.869 there's kick and pull happening and blah blah blah blah blah But that same 01:40:06.869 --> 01:40:15.059 person and that same horse riding that same circle in hour five three of a day 01:40:15.059 --> 01:40:20.459 on horseback I would warrant that that thing would not be happening because 01:40:20.459 --> 01:40:25.869 there there would be that harmony of Usually you see, if they survive together 01:40:25.869 --> 01:40:28.049 that long, there's harmony of purpose. 01:40:28.239 --> 01:40:31.669 Similarly, you know, in a healing situation, in a true healing ritual, 01:40:31.669 --> 01:40:35.689 it's hours and hours and hours, you know, there's just time to relax into it. 01:40:37.009 --> 01:40:41.189 When someone comes for, I'm going to work my horse now, I've got a job, I 01:40:41.189 --> 01:40:44.979 come home from my job, I'm going to work my horse for an hour, and then 01:40:44.989 --> 01:40:49.009 I'm going to go, or I'm, the person is coming for this therapy session, they're 01:40:49.009 --> 01:40:54.549 coming for an hour, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or there's no time. 01:40:55.524 --> 01:41:01.444 And I wonder how much of the stresses that we see that become cumulative and 01:41:01.444 --> 01:41:07.684 compounded is just that we're not ranging across nature, you know, neither us 01:41:07.684 --> 01:41:09.944 nor the horse together as we should be. 01:41:10.224 --> 01:41:13.354 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think people with horses, it's not so 01:41:13.354 --> 01:41:18.844 much time Like with an example you gave there, it's not so much time. 01:41:18.854 --> 01:41:21.984 What people tend to do with horses is something they will not do in 01:41:21.994 --> 01:41:27.304 any other part of their life, which is have a plan that's unchangeable. 01:41:27.764 --> 01:41:31.714 And another, an analogy I like to use is what I call milk and eggs. 01:41:31.724 --> 01:41:35.124 So if I'm doing a clinic, I'll say, is anybody here write a shopping list? 01:41:35.434 --> 01:41:38.514 Someone put the hand up and say, okay, so where do you shop? 01:41:38.794 --> 01:41:43.364 And they might say Safeway is a popular supermarket here in America. 01:41:44.214 --> 01:41:48.104 And I said, okay, so you would write on your piece of paper, Safeway, underline, 01:41:48.134 --> 01:41:52.094 underline, and then below that you'd write milk and eggs, and they go, yes, and I 01:41:52.094 --> 01:41:56.584 said, okay, would you ever take that note, that's what I'm doing today, go out to 01:41:56.584 --> 01:41:59.964 the car, and as you go to get in the car, you notice you've got a flat front tire, 01:42:00.984 --> 01:42:05.024 would you consult your list, and let's see if I've got any tire pumping on my list 01:42:05.024 --> 01:42:08.374 today, nope, no tire pumping on my list, I'm just going to drive to the store. 01:42:09.694 --> 01:42:12.314 You would not do that anywhere in life. 01:42:12.324 --> 01:42:16.094 You'd go, hang on, let me put aside my list for a minute because 01:42:16.114 --> 01:42:18.074 I need to address this tire. 01:42:18.634 --> 01:42:21.804 We don't do it with cars, but we definitely do it with horses. 01:42:21.804 --> 01:42:23.234 People go, this is what I'm going to do today. 01:42:23.234 --> 01:42:24.334 I'm going to do this and this and this. 01:42:24.334 --> 01:42:29.479 And if the horse presents something else along the way, But being in the moment 01:42:29.519 --> 01:42:32.279 going, Oh, I need to fix this first. 01:42:32.999 --> 01:42:37.719 They will tend to just keep doing their they will tend to keep doing their plan. 01:42:37.719 --> 01:42:42.519 Whereas for me, training horses, it's like, okay, this is what 01:42:42.519 --> 01:42:44.469 I'm planning on doing today. 01:42:44.469 --> 01:42:46.649 But Oh, the horse tells me we need to work on this. 01:42:46.679 --> 01:42:47.039 Okay. 01:42:47.039 --> 01:42:48.079 We'll go, we'll go there. 01:42:48.269 --> 01:42:49.614 It's just like following Rowan. 01:42:49.864 --> 01:42:50.194 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:42:50.234 --> 01:42:50.884 No, totally. 01:42:50.994 --> 01:42:51.164 Totally. 01:42:51.174 --> 01:42:51.444 You know what I 01:42:51.444 --> 01:42:51.794 Warwick Schiller: mean? 01:42:51.984 --> 01:42:56.004 Like today, Rowan and I are going, when Rowan was young, like today, 01:42:56.064 --> 01:42:59.494 Rowan and I are going to, we're going to try and do this thing. 01:42:59.754 --> 01:43:00.144 Oh, hang on. 01:43:00.144 --> 01:43:00.724 There goes Rowan. 01:43:00.724 --> 01:43:01.084 Okay. 01:43:01.124 --> 01:43:01.704 Forget that. 01:43:01.704 --> 01:43:03.244 Rowan's down the Creek looking at frogs. 01:43:03.274 --> 01:43:03.624 Okay. 01:43:03.624 --> 01:43:04.744 We're now looking at frogs. 01:43:06.604 --> 01:43:07.214 Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean? 01:43:07.614 --> 01:43:08.034 Yeah. 01:43:08.334 --> 01:43:11.714 And the looking at frogs is no loss because suddenly through 01:43:11.744 --> 01:43:14.794 the frogs, my God, the portals open to all these other things. 01:43:14.964 --> 01:43:15.304 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 01:43:15.304 --> 01:43:19.604 I really think that whatever shows up is what needs to be done right. 01:43:20.134 --> 01:43:23.334 Right then and that's where you kind of got to be got to be present, 01:43:23.364 --> 01:43:26.374 you know And I imagine it's hard in a therapeutic session with the 01:43:26.384 --> 01:43:29.524 horses and people and whatever but like I said, I'm not really in that 01:43:31.474 --> 01:43:34.994 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think I think I think that there is a real value to just 01:43:34.994 --> 01:43:42.094 simply putting your attention there So as you say, there are certain pressures 01:43:44.214 --> 01:43:49.854 Because we have this follow the child thing for example within horse boy we talk 01:43:49.854 --> 01:43:54.759 to parents Or caregivers before they come and say we're going to work in this way. 01:43:55.709 --> 01:43:58.719 So you're not going to be surprised by the fact that it seems 01:43:58.719 --> 01:44:00.039 chaotic when we just follow the 01:44:00.209 --> 01:44:00.429 kid. 01:44:00.889 --> 01:44:02.559 Rupert Isaacson: Or if the kid doesn't want the horse that we're 01:44:02.559 --> 01:44:04.349 doing something else or whatever. 01:44:04.829 --> 01:44:06.599 But here is why. 01:44:06.959 --> 01:44:09.989 Because we do understand that in your mind you are coming here for 01:44:09.989 --> 01:44:14.629 this thing called a therapy session with a horse So therefore it's a lot. 01:44:14.659 --> 01:44:21.619 It's reasonable for you to be alarmed if you see that not happening but Therefore 01:44:21.619 --> 01:44:27.429 because of that we will honor that and explain in advance a lot why we work this 01:44:27.429 --> 01:44:34.099 way from the neuroscience point of view and tell you why It's likely to work and 01:44:34.099 --> 01:44:36.009 if it's really not for you, okay, fine. 01:44:36.259 --> 01:44:36.789 It's all right. 01:44:36.789 --> 01:44:41.519 We in our experience This is how it works better. 01:44:43.249 --> 01:44:46.689 I think the point that you're making you keep saying well I'm not you know 01:44:46.689 --> 01:44:50.209 familiar with that therapy environment, but of course really all of your 01:44:50.819 --> 01:44:52.639 Workshops are therapy environments. 01:44:52.689 --> 01:44:58.664 They are people come and they find change They find that they're 01:44:58.664 --> 01:45:01.294 liberated from constraints. 01:45:01.954 --> 01:45:04.734 Warwick Schiller: No, I, I, I get, they turn out that way, but, but not 01:45:04.784 --> 01:45:08.234 the setup therapy environment where this child is going to get on this 01:45:08.234 --> 01:45:12.014 horse and the horse has to do what he's got to do right now for the child. 01:45:12.054 --> 01:45:12.704 Indeed. 01:45:12.774 --> 01:45:14.684 Rupert Isaacson: I guess what I've been trying to sort of. 01:45:15.244 --> 01:45:20.384 Rope for when I, when I say, you know, ask, asking you what, what 01:45:20.384 --> 01:45:21.804 are the little tools you might use? 01:45:21.834 --> 01:45:24.134 And you have actually been quite articulate about them that you've, 01:45:24.144 --> 01:45:27.514 you've, you've really talked about matching steps, looking where they look. 01:45:27.524 --> 01:45:31.124 These kinds of things are actually not intuitive for people. 01:45:31.374 --> 01:45:34.144 And it's really helpful to hear them actually say, why not? 01:45:34.594 --> 01:45:36.374 Why not actually try looking where they look? 01:45:36.374 --> 01:45:38.104 Why not actually try matching steps? 01:45:38.334 --> 01:45:41.444 Why not actually try if they turn away, turn away, you know, 01:45:43.484 --> 01:45:44.589 so that you can show you don't. 01:45:44.859 --> 01:45:45.399 Want something? 01:45:45.609 --> 01:45:51.659 I think what you're touching on, which I think which is helpful, is if there 01:45:51.739 --> 01:45:59.149 is an Attention, you talked about where thoughts go, if the thoughts of the say 01:45:59.169 --> 01:46:06.969 therapeutic equine assisted practitioner Can go towards this attainment thing, just 01:46:06.979 --> 01:46:12.519 the thoughts Okay, they have to deliver the session, but just the thoughts. 01:46:13.429 --> 01:46:15.649 I would posit that it's going to go better, wouldn't you? 01:46:16.939 --> 01:46:19.839 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think it's, it's a bit like, it's 01:46:19.839 --> 01:46:20.989 a bit like bedside manner. 01:46:21.259 --> 01:46:21.709 You know what I mean? 01:46:21.709 --> 01:46:26.439 Can you imagine being an old person in a, in some sort of a home, like an 01:46:26.439 --> 01:46:30.659 aged care facility, and someone brings in your food, sits a tray down, walks 01:46:30.659 --> 01:46:33.879 out, someone comes in, dust your bed, whatever, cleans the room, whatever. 01:46:33.899 --> 01:46:34.649 They don't even look at you. 01:46:34.649 --> 01:46:35.449 They don't say hello. 01:46:35.449 --> 01:46:36.859 Like you're just an object. 01:46:37.409 --> 01:46:43.729 Whereas, and I feel a lot of horses are treated like objects, whereas 01:46:45.059 --> 01:46:47.919 Whereas if you can just make that connection and I'm not talking about 01:46:47.919 --> 01:46:53.214 I'm not talking about any magical thing, but just like Hey, how's it going? 01:46:53.214 --> 01:46:56.104 I'm like, I talk to my horses like they're people like, Hey, how's it going today? 01:46:56.104 --> 01:46:56.424 You know? 01:46:56.934 --> 01:47:00.724 I think that they, they know that, you know, you know what I mean? 01:47:00.724 --> 01:47:05.834 They, they're, they're aware of your awareness of them. 01:47:06.254 --> 01:47:09.279 And they're, they're aware of your non awareness of them and, and. 01:47:09.519 --> 01:47:13.719 How they interact with you depends on, on how you show up, you know, 01:47:13.779 --> 01:47:18.759 like I said about Bundy's testing thing, you know, I think they just 01:47:18.759 --> 01:47:20.979 like to know who they're dealing with. 01:47:20.989 --> 01:47:23.019 And I feel like if you can. 01:47:26.534 --> 01:47:31.484 Communicate your awareness of them and not, not just have 01:47:31.484 --> 01:47:33.124 them like an object in the room. 01:47:35.644 --> 01:47:40.394 It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a, I think, I think it's a, the outcome 01:47:40.394 --> 01:47:43.804 can be totally different or at least significantly different, but they 01:47:43.804 --> 01:47:48.564 certainly feel different about, I think horses level of consciousness 01:47:48.564 --> 01:47:52.984 and their awareness is way more than, than you know, most people. 01:47:54.659 --> 01:47:58.439 Most people believe, and yeah, they really, they basically know when you're, 01:47:59.329 --> 01:48:02.059 they know when you're aware and they know when you're not, you know, I had a podcast 01:48:02.079 --> 01:48:06.509 guest a couple of years ago who was his name's Ty Murray, was a world champion 01:48:06.509 --> 01:48:10.849 rodeo cowboy, but he's really into the horsemanship stuff now, and he said one 01:48:10.849 --> 01:48:14.519 line during our podcast conversation that I wanted to circle back to, but we got 01:48:14.649 --> 01:48:20.689 off track and went somewhere else, but his line was, you need to be aware of 01:48:20.689 --> 01:48:22.419 them the moment they become aware of you. 01:48:24.199 --> 01:48:28.459 Like you walk out the back door and your horse is, you know, you know, six acres 01:48:28.459 --> 01:48:33.549 away and his head pops up and looks at you, you need to know that he noticed you. 01:48:33.609 --> 01:48:38.629 And there seems to be an awareness of your awareness 01:48:39.179 --> 01:48:39.919 Rupert Isaacson: and that, and 01:48:40.159 --> 01:48:41.269 Warwick Schiller: even before you get anywhere near him, 01:48:41.529 --> 01:48:42.969 that will make a difference. 01:48:44.999 --> 01:48:45.429 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:48:45.479 --> 01:48:47.589 Back to what you said about being seen. 01:48:47.599 --> 01:48:49.609 Why is being seen or gotten? 01:48:50.184 --> 01:48:54.104 Important because mammal to mammal, it makes you feel safe. 01:48:54.854 --> 01:48:55.274 Yeah. 01:48:55.404 --> 01:49:00.664 I mean, if, if I feel that you are noticing what I'm noticing and seeing 01:49:00.664 --> 01:49:05.024 me as me, then I think there's a chance that if there's a danger 01:49:05.024 --> 01:49:10.984 I don't see and you do, you might alert me to it and help me out of it. 01:49:11.494 --> 01:49:11.894 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 01:49:12.624 --> 01:49:18.334 I really believe that's the, that's the underlying thing of the whole thing. 01:49:18.374 --> 01:49:21.424 You know, I feel like horses You know, people talk about 01:49:21.424 --> 01:49:22.504 trust with horses and stuff. 01:49:22.504 --> 01:49:27.234 And I feel like there's two types of trust your horse can have about you. 01:49:28.384 --> 01:49:29.284 The first one's pretty easy. 01:49:29.334 --> 01:49:30.514 I trust you're not going to hurt me. 01:49:31.124 --> 01:49:32.744 I trust you're not a danger to me. 01:49:32.874 --> 01:49:34.604 That's very easy. 01:49:35.054 --> 01:49:39.424 But the other one, which is, I think quite a bit harder is I trust your 01:49:39.424 --> 01:49:44.854 awareness enough to communicate danger. 01:49:44.884 --> 01:49:45.694 If I don't notice it, 01:49:45.694 --> 01:49:46.824 I 01:49:47.304 --> 01:49:49.124 Warwick Schiller: trust you on that level. 01:49:49.124 --> 01:49:51.474 I trust you with, with my life. 01:49:51.474 --> 01:49:55.404 Not, not, I trust that you're not going to kill me. 01:49:55.634 --> 01:50:01.064 It's I trust that you are aware enough to alert me to danger that I don't see. 01:50:01.134 --> 01:50:01.194 S 01:50:02.144 --> 01:50:03.704 Rupert Isaacson: that you've got my back basically. 01:50:03.704 --> 01:50:03.914 Yeah. 01:50:03.914 --> 01:50:04.934 Warwick Schiller: Yes, that too. 01:50:04.934 --> 01:50:11.144 And, and so for me, every interaction you have with them all day, it's, it's 01:50:11.554 --> 01:50:13.024 raising and lowering the trust meter. 01:50:13.174 --> 01:50:15.424 Like just communicating your awareness of things. 01:50:17.894 --> 01:50:18.614 It's so true. 01:50:18.614 --> 01:50:19.019 That's, yeah. 01:50:19.034 --> 01:50:20.954 I think that's the, I think that's the holy grail. 01:50:21.464 --> 01:50:23.774 Rupert Isaacson: And then when, when a relationship gets damaged 01:50:24.014 --> 01:50:27.574 as well, it it, as you say, it's a holy grail because it allows you. 01:50:27.939 --> 01:50:29.994 You talked about resilience, it allows 'em to bounce back. 01:50:30.234 --> 01:50:30.894 Got a horse right now. 01:50:30.894 --> 01:50:31.344 Well, 01:50:31.904 --> 01:50:33.584 Warwick Schiller: sorry, can I just interrupt there for 01:50:33.584 --> 01:50:33.794 Rupert Isaacson: a second? 01:50:33.794 --> 01:50:34.244 Yeah, go ahead. 01:50:35.414 --> 01:50:37.004 Warwick Schiller: I, I saw something a while ago. 01:50:37.094 --> 01:50:40.274 A therapist actually showed me and, and it was like this circle and 01:50:40.274 --> 01:50:41.774 had three words around the circle. 01:50:41.774 --> 01:50:42.644 At the top of the circle. 01:50:42.644 --> 01:50:46.024 It said connection, and then there was an arrow went around the circle 01:50:46.024 --> 01:50:47.644 to the next word that said rupture. 01:50:48.024 --> 01:50:50.214 And then there was an arrow went around the next part of the circle 01:50:50.214 --> 01:50:51.654 to the next word that said repair. 01:50:51.864 --> 01:50:54.474 And then an arrow finished the circle off, went back to connection. 01:50:54.624 --> 01:50:55.194 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:50:55.424 --> 01:50:59.164 Warwick Schiller: The thing about, I always tell people, don't worry about 01:50:59.164 --> 01:51:05.074 rupturing your connection because When it ruptures when you notice it 01:51:05.074 --> 01:51:09.244 ruptures and you take a make amends and you do the repair One thing is 01:51:09.474 --> 01:51:10.824 you're saying you notice the rupture 01:51:10.954 --> 01:51:11.364 Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm, 01:51:12.124 --> 01:51:16.324 Warwick Schiller: and then you take the time and effort to do the repair and now 01:51:16.324 --> 01:51:19.284 you're back to connection But you're not in the same connection you were in before 01:51:19.284 --> 01:51:21.414 because you guys have just been through 01:51:21.974 --> 01:51:22.367 a little bit 01:51:22.367 --> 01:51:24.094 Warwick Schiller: of trouble and you've told them that you're aware 01:51:24.094 --> 01:51:28.074 of the trouble and you're Quite prepared to repair that trouble. 01:51:28.074 --> 01:51:31.604 And I said, it's, it's just a connection rupture repair cycle. 01:51:32.634 --> 01:51:34.934 You know, like no, no relationship is just connection. 01:51:35.644 --> 01:51:36.084 It's true. 01:51:36.134 --> 01:51:39.154 Otherwise you're not communicating probably with each other, 01:51:39.154 --> 01:51:39.954 but how you really feel, 01:51:39.954 --> 01:51:40.054 Rupert Isaacson: you 01:51:40.054 --> 01:51:40.374 Warwick Schiller: know? 01:51:40.624 --> 01:51:41.224 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:51:41.254 --> 01:51:41.694 Yeah. 01:51:41.734 --> 01:51:41.934 Yeah. 01:51:41.934 --> 01:51:42.184 Yeah. 01:51:42.474 --> 01:51:43.474 And relationships. 01:51:43.934 --> 01:51:52.144 Cannot not rupture often for things that are outside the control of whoever the 01:51:52.144 --> 01:51:56.534 organisms are within that relationship They can be ruptured by distance. 01:51:56.674 --> 01:51:59.674 They can be ruptured by so many things 01:52:02.544 --> 01:52:08.204 Equally, you know somebody can have a bad experience on your watch 01:52:09.174 --> 01:52:11.174 and lose a bit of trust in you 01:52:14.744 --> 01:52:17.794 But it can be repaired and then it's usually a stronger 01:52:17.794 --> 01:52:18.854 relationship afterwards. 01:52:18.854 --> 01:52:19.154 Yeah. 01:52:19.684 --> 01:52:22.684 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, like you make a mistake You do something stupid, somebody 01:52:22.684 --> 01:52:26.804 else is offended, you can either ignore it or you go, Hey, I'm really sorry. 01:52:26.804 --> 01:52:28.704 I realized that I upset you when I said that. 01:52:28.724 --> 01:52:29.914 And I probably shouldn't have said that. 01:52:30.584 --> 01:52:32.844 When you get through that repair, they think more of you than 01:52:32.844 --> 01:52:34.704 they did before you screwed up. 01:52:34.704 --> 01:52:35.254 You know what I mean? 01:52:35.524 --> 01:52:36.814 I think that's. 01:52:37.019 --> 01:52:37.529 That's 01:52:37.579 --> 01:52:37.949 Rupert Isaacson: let's have a 01:52:37.949 --> 01:52:38.199 Warwick Schiller: look at 01:52:38.199 --> 01:52:38.429 Rupert Isaacson: that. 01:52:38.529 --> 01:52:39.459 Warwick Schiller: Just hold it down a bit. 01:52:39.489 --> 01:52:40.339 Just hold it still. 01:52:40.839 --> 01:52:44.649 Yeah, I, I, so, you know, I, a lot of people when they get into this whole 01:52:44.669 --> 01:52:49.039 connection stuff with their horses, they want to, I don't want to ever lose 01:52:49.039 --> 01:52:55.029 connection and that, that's the problem is not wanting to lose connection. 01:52:55.199 --> 01:52:56.319 Yes, it is. 01:52:56.429 --> 01:52:56.789 It is. 01:52:56.789 --> 01:53:01.079 It's, it's not, it's, I don't ever want to lose, like, Oh, I might, I don't want 01:53:01.079 --> 01:53:02.319 to do that cause I might lose connection. 01:53:02.359 --> 01:53:02.829 If you. 01:53:03.029 --> 01:53:06.049 Do that one thing, whatever it is, and you lose connection and 01:53:06.049 --> 01:53:07.049 you don't ever get it back again. 01:53:07.049 --> 01:53:08.819 It wasn't really connected in the first place. 01:53:08.839 --> 01:53:13.129 It was very, it was very superficial sort of thing. 01:53:13.129 --> 01:53:15.479 But it's, yeah, that whole, I'm really big on that connection 01:53:15.479 --> 01:53:17.139 rupture repair cycle these days. 01:53:17.879 --> 01:53:22.319 It's yeah, I, I believe that's how the relationships grow and that connection 01:53:22.319 --> 01:53:27.129 becomes much deeper and with horses, it's because you're communicating 01:53:27.129 --> 01:53:28.599 your awareness of the rupture. 01:53:29.929 --> 01:53:32.389 Rupert Isaacson: Rupture and repair, basically. 01:53:32.664 --> 01:53:39.474 It's faith, right, because it, it allows you to know that it can rupture, it 01:53:39.474 --> 01:53:42.494 will repair, so you can have faith. 01:53:42.824 --> 01:53:43.064 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:53:43.064 --> 01:53:46.294 And if you've ever had a lot of those, the next time there's a rupture, 01:53:46.844 --> 01:53:48.104 it's not the end of the world. 01:53:48.184 --> 01:53:48.514 Yeah. 01:53:48.734 --> 01:53:49.064 Oh, okay. 01:53:49.974 --> 01:53:52.244 Cause I know we're going to come out the other side of this. 01:53:53.179 --> 01:53:55.699 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and you've got some skills you know what to do 01:53:55.709 --> 01:53:58.229 to come out of the other side of it Yeah, well, that's the other thing. 01:53:58.229 --> 01:53:58.629 Yeah, the 01:53:58.629 --> 01:53:59.879 Warwick Schiller: repair skills. 01:54:00.219 --> 01:54:00.609 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:54:02.979 --> 01:54:09.779 Well, I know it's a right about just over the two hour mark and We may have 01:54:09.779 --> 01:54:15.159 to rupture at this point Because I know that you have to go and do Things today. 01:54:15.159 --> 01:54:16.789 You are nine hours behind me. 01:54:17.399 --> 01:54:18.169 I'll leave you soon. 01:54:18.549 --> 01:54:25.679 So I hope that we can repair and reconnect Would love to And go further into this. 01:54:25.709 --> 01:54:26.749 Yeah, it's 01:54:29.009 --> 01:54:32.619 those people who most people are aware of you Most people are aware 01:54:32.619 --> 01:54:35.979 of me are aware of you But for the people who are not aware of you and 01:54:35.999 --> 01:54:41.339 also people who want to dive deeper into your resources on Attunement 01:54:44.279 --> 01:54:45.239 give us the resources. 01:54:45.239 --> 01:54:45.769 Where can they go? 01:54:47.549 --> 01:54:48.739 Warwick Schiller: My website warwickschiller. 01:54:48.769 --> 01:54:51.399 com or if you want to go to the video library it's videos. 01:54:51.449 --> 01:54:52.289 warwickschiller. 01:54:52.349 --> 01:54:57.234 com I have a Facebook page, I have a Facebook group, Warwick Schiller Attuned 01:54:57.244 --> 01:55:02.664 Horsemanship, and I have a podcast where I first met Rupert Sheldrake. 01:55:02.994 --> 01:55:04.674 Rupert Sheldrake, yeah, that guy too. 01:55:05.094 --> 01:55:06.214 Rupert Isaacson. 01:55:06.214 --> 01:55:07.604 I want him on mine. 01:55:07.684 --> 01:55:08.934 Yeah, I want him on mine too. 01:55:09.264 --> 01:55:10.924 And it's called The Journey on Podcast. 01:55:10.924 --> 01:55:15.044 It's available on all Journey all the podcast apps and it's, 01:55:15.074 --> 01:55:18.174 yeah, it's more explorations of consciousness than anything, but yeah. 01:55:18.949 --> 01:55:19.359 Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant. 01:55:20.369 --> 01:55:20.929 All right, Warwick. 01:55:20.929 --> 01:55:21.959 Well, thank you again. 01:55:23.069 --> 01:55:23.249 Once 01:55:23.249 --> 01:55:23.589 Warwick Schiller: again. 01:55:23.599 --> 01:55:25.309 Pleasure chatting with you as usual. 01:55:25.899 --> 01:55:26.319 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 01:55:26.499 --> 01:55:27.209 Till the next time. 01:55:27.509 --> 01:55:28.399 Give my love to everyone. 01:55:28.929 --> 01:55:29.439 Warwick Schiller: I shall. 01:55:30.739 --> 01:55:31.069 Bye. 01:55:31.959 --> 01:55:35.079 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:55:35.619 --> 01:55:40.519 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 01:55:40.529 --> 01:55:44.699 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and 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