WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.728 --> 00:00:27.438 Speaker: Hello and welcome, Andy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:29.688 I'm very excited to have you here with me today. 00:00:30.898 --> 00:00:31.888 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for inviting me. 00:00:31.978 --> 00:00:33.028 I'm excited to have a little chat 00:00:33.028 --> 00:00:33.238 Speaker: with you. 00:00:33.868 --> 00:00:34.218 Awesome. 00:00:34.268 --> 00:00:34.518 Awesome. 00:00:34.758 --> 00:00:39.058 So before we dive into that, let's, let's people know, let people know 00:00:39.058 --> 00:00:40.708 where in this lovely world you're based. 00:00:40.718 --> 00:00:42.988 And so what's your business with dogs? 00:00:44.298 --> 00:00:47.848 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very lucky because I live, um, on a beach, 00:00:48.068 --> 00:00:49.078 not literally on a beach. 00:00:49.078 --> 00:00:53.008 We live next to the beach, um, with my wonderful husband and we've got 00:00:53.018 --> 00:00:55.618 three dogs down in Devon in UK. 00:00:57.018 --> 00:01:01.148 So it's a really beautiful place to live and, um, yeah, we have a few too 00:01:01.148 --> 00:01:02.768 many tourists probably in the summer. 00:01:02.778 --> 00:01:05.508 I shouldn't really whinge about that, but you know, but we're happy 00:01:05.518 --> 00:01:06.528 to share this wonderful place. 00:01:06.538 --> 00:01:07.118 So that's great. 00:01:07.118 --> 00:01:08.748 And we've got Dartmoor nearby. 00:01:08.748 --> 00:01:11.668 So it's a really wonderful place, Anke, actually. 00:01:11.668 --> 00:01:13.008 So yeah, we're very lucky to be here. 00:01:13.008 --> 00:01:17.388 And I've got private practice down here working with dogs. 00:01:17.918 --> 00:01:21.242 Um, so, uh, I specialize in working with dogs. 00:01:22.493 --> 00:01:27.203 What we might colloquially refer to as reactivity and aggression. 00:01:27.913 --> 00:01:32.473 About half of my workload are dogs that we might class as 00:01:32.473 --> 00:01:33.983 being dangerous, potentially. 00:01:34.183 --> 00:01:39.333 Um, and they're my favorites to work with because, as we'll touch on a 00:01:39.333 --> 00:01:45.263 little bit today, they are potentially dangerous because they haven't been heard. 00:01:45.543 --> 00:01:47.083 Their stories haven't been heard. 00:01:47.203 --> 00:01:48.363 They don't feel safe. 00:01:49.043 --> 00:01:53.553 Um, and actually in my 15 years of working with these type of dogs, I've 00:01:53.553 --> 00:01:55.483 not met a dog yet that wasn't in pain. 00:01:56.103 --> 00:02:00.083 Uh, physical pain, of course, but also emotional or social pain. 00:02:00.623 --> 00:02:03.993 So, um, yeah, I love working with these dogs and I, and I spend a lot 00:02:03.993 --> 00:02:09.303 of time with my educational stuff, really, trying to push back against 00:02:09.303 --> 00:02:15.143 this fallacy that somehow these dogs can only be helped by harsh means. 00:02:15.673 --> 00:02:18.213 And I can say to you now, no dog. 00:02:19.043 --> 00:02:22.233 is safer to be around by being made to feel less safe. 00:02:22.763 --> 00:02:24.123 It's just, that's it. 00:02:24.273 --> 00:02:27.643 But, but that's, um, we can touch on some of those little points in a 00:02:27.643 --> 00:02:28.783 minute, but that's kind of what I do. 00:02:28.783 --> 00:02:31.423 So I'm, I'm the behavioural consultant for a product called 00:02:31.423 --> 00:02:33.093 Pet Remedy here in the UK. 00:02:33.143 --> 00:02:34.313 I do a lot of work with Pet Remedy. 00:02:34.903 --> 00:02:37.663 Um, I'm an expert advisor with Canine Arthritis Management. 00:02:37.673 --> 00:02:42.163 I love everything Howard does at CAM, um, really promoting All this 00:02:42.443 --> 00:02:46.033 wonderful information to caregivers and professionals about the role of chronic 00:02:46.033 --> 00:02:48.393 pain in a lot of behavior, actually. 00:02:48.963 --> 00:02:53.413 Um, and, uh, yeah, and I run my dog centered care platform, 00:02:53.413 --> 00:02:55.843 which is, um, uh, Facebook group. 00:02:56.623 --> 00:03:01.243 And I get a chance to speak to wonderful people, um, and, uh, people who are 00:03:01.243 --> 00:03:07.413 leading the way in thinking about moving away from just a training, compliance 00:03:07.413 --> 00:03:09.193 based approach to working with dogs. 00:03:09.223 --> 00:03:14.643 Because There's a beautiful richness to their emotional lives that we need 00:03:14.643 --> 00:03:18.673 to be better at bearing witness to because that's how we really truly 00:03:18.683 --> 00:03:23.133 have that wonderful relationship and a lot of behavioral challenges actually 00:03:23.723 --> 00:03:26.903 are a dog trying to communicate their safety and relief needs. 00:03:28.393 --> 00:03:28.973 Speaker: I love that. 00:03:29.013 --> 00:03:29.513 I love that. 00:03:30.043 --> 00:03:32.693 Oh boy, Devin, like we'll have chat about that afterwards. 00:03:32.733 --> 00:03:33.373 I love Devin. 00:03:33.773 --> 00:03:42.453 Um, so I'm curious, how did you get started with dog training? 00:03:42.473 --> 00:03:44.853 Like that wasn't your first career. 00:03:44.853 --> 00:03:47.533 So what made you make this, make the switch? 00:03:48.073 --> 00:03:48.443 Speaker 2: Yeah, no. 00:03:48.443 --> 00:03:50.743 So, um, I've got a human psychology background and, 00:03:50.743 --> 00:03:52.613 um, this is why I'm really. 00:03:53.228 --> 00:03:56.718 The one thing that goes straight through everything really is a real interesting 00:03:56.718 --> 00:04:01.708 in a real interest in the individual lived emotional experience, whether it's 00:04:01.708 --> 00:04:04.768 the human, whether it's the dog, whether it's the cat, whether it's the horse. 00:04:05.538 --> 00:04:10.738 Um, and, uh, you know, the emotional experience is a powerful lens to look at 00:04:10.738 --> 00:04:13.408 the world because one is we all have one. 00:04:14.323 --> 00:04:16.033 You have one, I have one, the dog has one. 00:04:16.633 --> 00:04:20.283 And secondly, they're all unique to us as individuals. 00:04:20.703 --> 00:04:26.003 So there's a lot that we share, I know, but, but, um, uh, but we are all 00:04:26.033 --> 00:04:31.893 a unique combination of our genetics, our early experiences, especially 00:04:31.933 --> 00:04:35.233 our secure, insecure attachments, our trauma, you know, all these things. 00:04:35.773 --> 00:04:39.193 So that's why we can all be in the same space, experiencing the same thing, 00:04:39.193 --> 00:04:40.823 but be affected by it very differently. 00:04:41.433 --> 00:04:45.693 So actually, uh, and our brain wants to project a safe world view of the 00:04:45.693 --> 00:04:47.313 world based on our own experience. 00:04:47.343 --> 00:04:48.943 And that's why we judge so easily. 00:04:49.253 --> 00:04:50.163 We love to judge, right? 00:04:50.733 --> 00:04:53.663 Um, judging often with the flimsiest of information. 00:04:54.213 --> 00:04:55.623 And there's two things about us humans. 00:04:55.623 --> 00:04:59.093 One is we love to judge, uh, and secondly, we hate to be judged. 00:04:59.733 --> 00:05:00.323 And why? 00:05:00.333 --> 00:05:01.853 Because we're our own behavior. 00:05:01.853 --> 00:05:02.243 Guess what? 00:05:02.243 --> 00:05:03.373 We know it's complicated. 00:05:04.298 --> 00:05:05.108 So that's the thing. 00:05:05.138 --> 00:05:05.648 Same for adults. 00:05:05.678 --> 00:05:10.238 So, um, then, so I was, I was working in, in the kind of human side of things and 00:05:10.238 --> 00:05:12.338 then, and then I had my own breakdown. 00:05:12.338 --> 00:05:13.988 That was, that was the big thing for me. 00:05:13.988 --> 00:05:18.908 And, um, I, I share some of this and I, I, I share this quite 00:05:18.908 --> 00:05:20.138 freely, uh, if it's relevant. 00:05:20.588 --> 00:05:24.728 Um, but I, I had a, I had a, I had trauma when I was, when I was a child, 00:05:24.728 --> 00:05:25.733 sexualized trauma when I was a child. 00:05:26.893 --> 00:05:31.343 Uh, with non family members, I like to mention that, but anyway, uh, and 00:05:31.713 --> 00:05:36.293 that's a really important point for me, you know, because the thing about 00:05:36.293 --> 00:05:43.883 trauma, when I experienced what I experienced, nothing around me changed. 00:05:44.583 --> 00:05:47.333 My parents were the same, my friends were the same, my school was the same. 00:05:47.613 --> 00:05:51.783 What changed was my perception of everything, uh, and 00:05:51.783 --> 00:05:54.543 the deepness of unsafety. 00:05:55.573 --> 00:05:56.163 And guess what? 00:05:56.173 --> 00:05:57.393 That affected my behaviour. 00:05:58.578 --> 00:06:01.428 And this is why I'm so passionate, I think, now with dogs, I'll come on to how 00:06:01.428 --> 00:06:04.738 I go on to dogs in a bit, about thinking about behavior differently, moving away 00:06:04.738 --> 00:06:08.788 from a very heavy training operant y model to just try and change behavior. 00:06:08.788 --> 00:06:12.608 So if you change behavior, everything's okay, because it isn't. 00:06:12.998 --> 00:06:17.812 So in my case, when I was at school then, um, and my behavior started to get Okay. 00:06:18.703 --> 00:06:24.633 progressively, uh, worse based upon the metric of the school, um, 00:06:24.743 --> 00:06:27.853 they ramped up their punishment until eventually I got the cane. 00:06:27.973 --> 00:06:32.583 So anybody under, I don't know, 30 years old, yes, we used to hit kids with sticks. 00:06:33.033 --> 00:06:35.563 Uh, and, um, so guess what? 00:06:35.563 --> 00:06:37.943 My behavior did change because I didn't want to get the cane. 00:06:38.553 --> 00:06:39.443 So job done. 00:06:39.853 --> 00:06:40.253 Tick. 00:06:40.403 --> 00:06:40.903 Because guess what? 00:06:40.923 --> 00:06:41.873 Punishment does work. 00:06:41.883 --> 00:06:43.723 If you're just looking at stopping behavior, it can work. 00:06:43.783 --> 00:06:44.053 Tick. 00:06:44.813 --> 00:06:45.583 My parents. 00:06:46.298 --> 00:06:49.758 took a different approach because, um, I was quite spoiled as a kid, I have 00:06:49.778 --> 00:06:54.508 to say, uh, but I was spoiled because, um, my parents worked very hard, and 00:06:54.568 --> 00:06:57.038 the problem with them working very hard is that they weren't around much. 00:06:57.828 --> 00:07:01.378 So, uh, when my behavior started to change, they recognized maybe 00:07:01.378 --> 00:07:04.468 they should be home more, so they said, like, you know, we'll do more 00:07:04.468 --> 00:07:09.053 as a family, contingent on, So we love contingencies as dog trainers. 00:07:09.123 --> 00:07:13.803 Contingent on you behaving better, because they wanted me to behave better 00:07:13.873 --> 00:07:15.683 because I was not being very nice. 00:07:16.063 --> 00:07:18.823 So I guess what I did behave, Anke, let's see the point again, 00:07:18.823 --> 00:07:20.553 tick, reinforcement, tick. 00:07:21.783 --> 00:07:26.163 So the consequence model worked, whether it was punishment or reinforcement, 00:07:26.473 --> 00:07:27.993 and my behavior did change. 00:07:29.448 --> 00:07:33.358 But my intrinsic safety needs didn't. 00:07:34.118 --> 00:07:35.298 I just behaved. 00:07:36.188 --> 00:07:40.488 And the real consequence for me was my breakdown some 15, 20 years later. 00:07:41.388 --> 00:07:47.318 So this is real, the reality of intrinsic need versus extrinsic motivation. 00:07:48.158 --> 00:07:53.598 How many dogs who are trying to communicate need The need for safety, the 00:07:53.598 --> 00:07:55.618 need for connection, the need for relief. 00:07:55.878 --> 00:07:58.498 Relief is the most important word in the psychology of behavior for me. 00:07:58.628 --> 00:08:02.908 It's why we have safety because when you feel that kind of negative thing, 00:08:02.908 --> 00:08:06.808 that physical pain, that emotional pain, that social pain, you seek relief. 00:08:08.213 --> 00:08:11.543 Um, and if you don't find relief, you get no relief, which 00:08:11.543 --> 00:08:12.873 is a horrible thing to feel. 00:08:12.903 --> 00:08:15.583 And we've all been in situations where we feel you have to 00:08:15.583 --> 00:08:16.483 kind of put up with stuff. 00:08:17.003 --> 00:08:20.633 So how many dogs then, because we've judged them, as we like to judge, 00:08:20.983 --> 00:08:24.783 uh, their behavior as being the problem, are they either shut down 00:08:24.813 --> 00:08:29.193 through punishment or even with reinforcement, because it's powerful? 00:08:29.823 --> 00:08:33.953 We end up getting a different behavior that we find more appropriate, but the 00:08:33.953 --> 00:08:38.293 dog still doesn't feel safe, or the dog still doesn't get the connection 00:08:38.293 --> 00:08:41.423 they need, or the dog still doesn't get the relief they were seeking. 00:08:42.003 --> 00:08:43.263 So everything's connected. 00:08:43.703 --> 00:08:47.073 Um, when I had my breakdown, um, I ended up moving home. 00:08:47.513 --> 00:08:52.283 My father had Sadly, uh, was in the last stages of his, of his 00:08:52.283 --> 00:08:53.633 illness and, and he passed away. 00:08:53.633 --> 00:08:56.003 And, and I, and I was with my mother, who I adored. 00:08:56.123 --> 00:08:59.933 I'm a real mom's boy, , and I adored, I adored her. 00:08:59.933 --> 00:09:02.783 And, um, she was getting on a bit herself. 00:09:02.783 --> 00:09:06.363 So I, I thought, yeah, I'm gonna stay home and look after mom and 00:09:06.393 --> 00:09:07.833 maybe I need to think about change. 00:09:07.833 --> 00:09:11.283 And one of the people that was involved in my therapy. 00:09:12.153 --> 00:09:16.003 His brother, um, is somebody called John Roberts, who people might have heard of 00:09:16.003 --> 00:09:22.693 if they're in the world anyway, um, and he was a real pioneer of positive enrichment 00:09:22.693 --> 00:09:26.393 and reinforcement within zoos and that kind of thing with the wild animal. 00:09:26.403 --> 00:09:30.313 So I got a chance to spend time with him and I had 18 months with him 00:09:30.313 --> 00:09:31.153 actually, which is really amazing. 00:09:31.553 --> 00:09:33.853 And, um, and I thought this is quite cool. 00:09:33.873 --> 00:09:37.603 And then mom might, it was my late mother, she's not with us now, who suggested 00:09:37.603 --> 00:09:39.463 maybe, maybe thinking about doing dogs. 00:09:39.463 --> 00:09:41.333 So I went down the normal dog training route. 00:09:41.558 --> 00:09:50.718 How to train a dog route and, um, uh, but over time, these thoughts 00:09:50.718 --> 00:09:52.308 about behavior started to come back. 00:09:52.468 --> 00:09:53.158 That's the key. 00:09:53.158 --> 00:09:57.448 And at the time, nobody was around in my circles was really 00:09:57.448 --> 00:09:58.828 allowing that conversation. 00:09:58.878 --> 00:10:03.528 And it was, Meeting the wonderful Sarah Fisher, who's now become a really dear 00:10:03.528 --> 00:10:08.098 friend of mine, thankfully, because I love her, uh, who almost gave me permission 00:10:08.118 --> 00:10:12.978 to keep thinking along these lines about, we've done very well at moving 00:10:12.978 --> 00:10:19.598 the conversation on from punishment to reinforcement, but that's very much 00:10:19.598 --> 00:10:23.488 about how to do the task of getting a dog to do something in a nicer way. 00:10:24.058 --> 00:10:27.888 I'm really interested now, Anke, about moving that conversation forwards 00:10:27.888 --> 00:10:30.623 and thinking, right, That's fine. 00:10:30.713 --> 00:10:35.013 We can, we know how we can change behavior, but what's the story 00:10:35.013 --> 00:10:36.183 of that dog in front of us? 00:10:36.583 --> 00:10:39.813 Speaker: Oh, I can't even tell you how much I love this. 00:10:40.343 --> 00:10:45.763 It just makes like the whole journey makes so much sense and the question that 00:10:45.983 --> 00:10:48.918 puts the that it puts in the room now. 00:10:49.168 --> 00:10:55.878 It almost is like, well, both the harsh approach and the reinforcement 00:10:56.178 --> 00:10:58.758 still only work on that surface level. 00:11:01.368 --> 00:11:05.478 And, you know, you could see like, well, if there is something underneath 00:11:05.478 --> 00:11:09.168 and you know how I don't know, with humans, you always say, well, okay, you 00:11:09.168 --> 00:11:14.678 know, if emotional stress doesn't have an outlet, it'll find its outlet, you 00:11:14.678 --> 00:11:16.748 know, in illness and it'll come out. 00:11:17.008 --> 00:11:19.358 It's almost like you kind of push something down, it'll 00:11:19.378 --> 00:11:21.318 come out somewhere, right? 00:11:21.608 --> 00:11:28.228 So what I'm curious about now, if we're looking at say, okay, let's just 00:11:28.258 --> 00:11:34.948 attack the issue, pun intended, attack, attack the issue at its, at its root. 00:11:36.563 --> 00:11:39.923 Right, so if we say, well, if a dog can feel safe. 00:11:41.408 --> 00:11:45.708 then chances are the behaviors we don't want kind of dissolve 00:11:45.738 --> 00:11:49.668 by themselves, you know, which makes all the sense in the world. 00:11:49.668 --> 00:11:55.498 So how, like, what is something that somebody would have to take into account? 00:11:55.498 --> 00:11:59.848 Or how would you, how do you go about creating safety for a dog? 00:11:59.878 --> 00:12:02.108 Like, how do you help a dog feel safe? 00:12:02.178 --> 00:12:04.838 I mean, you know, it's even like, I don't know. 00:12:04.868 --> 00:12:07.488 And how is it, is it different from people? 00:12:07.748 --> 00:12:08.548 And if so, how? 00:12:09.768 --> 00:12:11.888 Speaker 2: I think on many fundamental levels it isn't, because the 00:12:11.888 --> 00:12:15.838 first thing is we have to navigate our own judgments and biases. 00:12:17.008 --> 00:12:22.048 As the one who is the one seeking to support, and we need to listen. 00:12:22.348 --> 00:12:23.818 We need to be available. 00:12:23.878 --> 00:12:27.818 We need to be truly available to the emotional truth of another. 00:12:28.838 --> 00:12:30.158 And that isn't always easy. 00:12:30.158 --> 00:12:35.358 And because as I say of our own, our own belief systems, our own 00:12:35.358 --> 00:12:39.208 judgments and that kind of thing, I've got what I call my CAKE acronym. 00:12:39.913 --> 00:12:42.543 Which helps us with that a little bit, because it happens to spell 00:12:42.543 --> 00:12:43.893 cake, because we all love cake, right. 00:12:44.263 --> 00:12:48.283 So cake, compassion, awareness, knowledge and empathy. 00:12:48.933 --> 00:12:52.393 These are the foundations of helping us be more available to 00:12:52.393 --> 00:12:55.183 the truth of another, whether it's the dog, whether it's the human. 00:12:55.923 --> 00:12:59.283 So compassion is first thing, and compassion is important because that 00:12:59.293 --> 00:13:02.183 helps us to navigate our own biases. 00:13:02.823 --> 00:13:07.793 So, um, I might have an intake form from a client and I might see that they've used 00:13:07.793 --> 00:13:12.193 a shot collar, I might see that they pin their dogs down, I might see that they 00:13:12.193 --> 00:13:15.793 do whatever, all these kind of things, and my judgy brain will judge that. 00:13:16.273 --> 00:13:21.613 And one thing about judgment, we can't not judge, but we can learn to 00:13:21.613 --> 00:13:23.843 change our relationship with judgment. 00:13:24.568 --> 00:13:27.288 We can change our relationship with our feelings, we can change our 00:13:27.288 --> 00:13:29.808 relationship with our trauma, we can change our relationship with everything. 00:13:30.718 --> 00:13:33.078 Um, it's not about not feeling stuff. 00:13:33.438 --> 00:13:38.968 So we can, uh, judge, Our brain will do it, but we can change our 00:13:38.968 --> 00:13:42.348 relationship with that judgment, so it doesn't drive our response. 00:13:43.068 --> 00:13:47.528 What will drive my response is compassion, because compassion is not about 00:13:47.528 --> 00:13:49.798 condoning, agreeing with, or whatever. 00:13:50.268 --> 00:13:54.388 It's about turning up anyway, about turning up anyway. 00:13:54.408 --> 00:13:55.818 So compassion is an important one. 00:13:56.118 --> 00:13:57.018 And then awareness. 00:13:57.048 --> 00:13:59.148 I need to be as aware as I can be. 00:13:59.908 --> 00:14:03.618 of that lived experience, whether it's the client or the dog, and 00:14:03.618 --> 00:14:05.978 allowing them to tell their story. 00:14:05.978 --> 00:14:10.068 I see behavior, especially dogs, like them painting a picture. 00:14:10.948 --> 00:14:12.878 I want them to paint that picture for me. 00:14:12.878 --> 00:14:15.868 I don't want to keep grabbing the brush off them thinking I can paint it better. 00:14:16.298 --> 00:14:17.598 Same with the client. 00:14:18.098 --> 00:14:23.778 I want them to tell their story in their words, on their terms, because that's how 00:14:23.778 --> 00:14:26.668 you help to create safety, social safety. 00:14:27.748 --> 00:14:28.558 And then knowledge. 00:14:28.588 --> 00:14:30.968 I have knowledge, of course I do, but that's not the point. 00:14:31.038 --> 00:14:35.598 The point at this point is I want to seek knowledge, true knowledge 00:14:35.608 --> 00:14:37.498 from that dog or the client. 00:14:37.538 --> 00:14:38.938 So it's, it's universal, this stuff. 00:14:39.608 --> 00:14:43.078 And that allows you to have more empathy and empathy is, is really the thing. 00:14:43.078 --> 00:14:48.538 I think I kind of feel that I can kind of, you know, empathy for me is, you know, Um, 00:14:48.608 --> 00:14:53.108 being available to the emotional truth of another and feeling it like it's your own. 00:14:53.418 --> 00:14:56.878 But, this is important for any professionals listening, recognizing 00:14:56.878 --> 00:14:58.588 that we're not responsible for it. 00:14:59.268 --> 00:15:00.708 Very important, that's where boundaries connect. 00:15:01.678 --> 00:15:04.468 So when I'm working with a dog then, the first thing we're going 00:15:04.468 --> 00:15:08.322 to do is move away from this notion of arbitrarily judging behavior. 00:15:08.983 --> 00:15:10.513 It's just behavior. 00:15:11.583 --> 00:15:15.023 I invite anybody listening now to think about how often you thought 00:15:15.033 --> 00:15:18.013 about your behavior today, and the answer is you didn't much. 00:15:18.753 --> 00:15:20.263 You just behaved. 00:15:21.033 --> 00:15:26.433 And you will behave differently based upon your mood state, your 00:15:26.433 --> 00:15:28.813 physical state, your emotional state. 00:15:29.563 --> 00:15:34.043 Um, you will behave differently based on your social circumstances, 00:15:34.043 --> 00:15:35.167 the social environment. 00:15:35.628 --> 00:15:39.218 We just, we know this about ourselves, but we struggle to see it in others. 00:15:39.708 --> 00:15:48.468 And actually, your behavior is, because of our own conditioning, is likely to 00:15:48.478 --> 00:15:52.798 be less authentic than we think it would be for ourselves, because we feel under 00:15:52.798 --> 00:15:54.268 a bit of social pressure to behave. 00:15:54.268 --> 00:15:57.547 We feel under pressure to be a bit of a people pleaser, or whatever it is we got. 00:15:57.547 --> 00:15:58.705 Sorry to sort of mention that. 00:15:58.705 --> 00:16:03.798 But anyway, so coming to those then, um, so Dr Jess, I want, it all comes down 00:16:03.798 --> 00:16:05.288 to really good observations with dogs. 00:16:05.288 --> 00:16:10.113 I need them to tell their story for me, uh, and I need to try and learn it. 00:16:10.373 --> 00:16:14.563 And I need to put away my own biases and think about these things. 00:16:14.703 --> 00:16:19.063 And almost always, when we think about the big behaviors, it's about 00:16:19.073 --> 00:16:21.603 a dog struggling to find relief. 00:16:21.793 --> 00:16:24.763 So that's a nervous system that's struggling to regulate well. 00:16:25.293 --> 00:16:27.833 Two really good, Little analogies here. 00:16:28.553 --> 00:16:31.053 One is about processing, because that's where the first bit is about 00:16:31.053 --> 00:16:34.163 how the brain can effectively and efficiently process what goes on. 00:16:34.393 --> 00:16:39.613 So if you imagine the dog's brain has lots of little doors in it, we, this is, the 00:16:39.623 --> 00:16:41.263 beautiful thing is this applies to us too. 00:16:41.343 --> 00:16:43.243 So, but, um, but anyway, talking about doggy. 00:16:43.383 --> 00:16:46.053 So your doggy at home then, your dog's got a lot of little doors in it. 00:16:46.338 --> 00:16:50.718 in their brain, and we need as many of those doors to stay open for 00:16:50.718 --> 00:16:53.848 that dog to have a chance of being able to process what's going on 00:16:53.848 --> 00:16:55.258 around them and make sense of it. 00:16:55.618 --> 00:16:58.418 There's something called sensory integration, so it's how that brain 00:16:58.728 --> 00:17:02.328 takes on information through the sensory system and integrates it well. 00:17:03.338 --> 00:17:08.468 Pain, trauma, and stress, excitement and frustration, or 00:17:08.478 --> 00:17:10.108 stress if you think about it. 00:17:11.138 --> 00:17:12.318 They're all big door closers. 00:17:13.458 --> 00:17:14.888 And, uh, same for us. 00:17:14.958 --> 00:17:19.778 So, um, also, if your dog is under 18 months old, there's a part of the 00:17:19.778 --> 00:17:24.758 brain that helps modulate, moderate our behavior, really, and kind 00:17:24.758 --> 00:17:26.368 of, you know, manage our emotions. 00:17:26.368 --> 00:17:30.898 And humans starts in our teens and it's fully formed in our late 20s. 00:17:30.908 --> 00:17:32.688 In dogs, it doesn't start till 18 months. 00:17:32.688 --> 00:17:34.318 So some of those doors aren't even open yet. 00:17:34.678 --> 00:17:36.578 Nothing closes doors like trauma. 00:17:36.578 --> 00:17:40.138 So if you've got an overseas rescue or a dog that's had a lot of trouble, you 00:17:40.138 --> 00:17:42.468 can't force those doors open the brain. 00:17:42.778 --> 00:17:46.258 And that nervous system has to believe it's okay to open them. 00:17:46.618 --> 00:17:51.408 You can't teach safety because the, as the wonderful Rachel Leather 00:17:51.408 --> 00:17:54.358 says, who's a trauma expert, because you have to feel it. 00:17:54.708 --> 00:17:56.938 I could teach you to be physically safe. 00:17:57.498 --> 00:18:01.578 And as in, don't put your fingers in the plug socket, but I can't teach you to be 00:18:01.758 --> 00:18:03.858 emotionally safe because you have to feel. 00:18:04.268 --> 00:18:05.868 So the doors to the brain lunge is a good one. 00:18:05.878 --> 00:18:06.498 Now guess what? 00:18:09.428 --> 00:18:13.398 Doors that are likely to start closing first when the 00:18:13.398 --> 00:18:14.998 animal is not feeling great. 00:18:16.123 --> 00:18:19.373 are likely to be the doors you put the training behind, because a lot of 00:18:19.373 --> 00:18:23.363 the training has little or no value to the dog other than what we want. 00:18:24.063 --> 00:18:27.583 The doors that are likely to stay open are the survival doors, right? 00:18:28.413 --> 00:18:30.973 Because that's the ones that have more innate value to the dog. 00:18:30.973 --> 00:18:34.323 So, you teach your dog some stuff, they do it, great. 00:18:35.243 --> 00:18:38.243 You ask the dog to do it another time and they're not doing it, now 00:18:38.243 --> 00:18:40.823 we've got a point of reference here, and we want to judge them, right? 00:18:40.823 --> 00:18:44.608 So we're The dog must do it because they've got to be obedient, so 00:18:44.608 --> 00:18:47.528 now they're being disobedient, willful, stubborn, whatever. 00:18:48.048 --> 00:18:52.108 No, just don't have enough doors open, so they can't right 00:18:52.108 --> 00:18:53.688 now, and it's hard for them. 00:18:54.068 --> 00:18:57.478 Uh, the number of times I see down on the beach people trying to control 00:18:57.488 --> 00:18:59.388 their dogs when they get out of the car. 00:19:00.048 --> 00:19:00.718 The dogs? 00:19:01.163 --> 00:19:03.133 Just really excited and they want to go to the beach. 00:19:03.133 --> 00:19:04.603 They're going, sit, no sit, sit. 00:19:04.633 --> 00:19:07.033 The dog's like, can't, that door's not open right now. 00:19:08.083 --> 00:19:09.743 And in fact, we're putting more pressure on the dog. 00:19:09.743 --> 00:19:11.283 So we're closing even more doors now. 00:19:11.283 --> 00:19:12.323 The doors are slamming shut. 00:19:13.193 --> 00:19:16.053 The second analogy is the nervous system, which connects in, which 00:19:16.053 --> 00:19:17.653 is the good old bucket analogy. 00:19:17.653 --> 00:19:18.403 We love a bucket. 00:19:18.793 --> 00:19:18.963 Yeah. 00:19:19.433 --> 00:19:20.453 Uh, the bucket line. 00:19:20.993 --> 00:19:23.153 Um, so the bucket system. 00:19:23.423 --> 00:19:23.693 Yeah. 00:19:23.763 --> 00:19:25.313 And then, and the water in the bucket. 00:19:25.833 --> 00:19:27.873 Is how much the nervous system is engaging. 00:19:27.873 --> 00:19:32.023 So in the bucket, elevation out the bucket, decompression. 00:19:32.033 --> 00:19:35.643 And if you want to get technical kind of in the bucket, sympathetic system 00:19:35.643 --> 00:19:37.253 out the bucket, parasympathetic system. 00:19:38.553 --> 00:19:43.833 So the more that's in the bucket, the less doors we have open, less chance of 00:19:44.523 --> 00:19:50.283 efficient sensor integratory process, making good choices or whatever else, more 00:19:50.283 --> 00:19:52.063 chance of reflexive automatic behavior. 00:19:52.113 --> 00:19:52.983 So even for us. 00:19:53.043 --> 00:19:58.383 When our bucket's too full, we are more likely, in the heat of 00:19:58.383 --> 00:19:59.783 the moment, to say and do things. 00:20:00.513 --> 00:20:03.973 That later, when we decompress and we have more doors open again, 00:20:03.973 --> 00:20:05.373 we're likely to apologise also. 00:20:05.873 --> 00:20:07.043 No different for the dog. 00:20:07.453 --> 00:20:10.853 So a lot of these big behaviours that we struggle with, A lot of the 00:20:10.853 --> 00:20:14.063 dogs I work with, the first thing we notice is that dog's bucket's 00:20:14.063 --> 00:20:15.863 fuller than it needs to be anyway. 00:20:17.273 --> 00:20:20.453 One last thing, especially if you've got a reactive dog in a vertical house, 00:20:20.863 --> 00:20:26.563 being sociable, being able to socially process well, takes a lot of juice. 00:20:27.013 --> 00:20:30.373 So if I want to invite your listeners to think, if you're not feeling very 00:20:30.373 --> 00:20:35.963 well, if you're stressed, if you're tired, if you're any of those things, 00:20:36.828 --> 00:20:39.918 And you're in town and you see a friend, you're more likely to try 00:20:39.918 --> 00:20:44.718 and avoid them because you don't have the bandwidth to do the social stuff. 00:20:45.218 --> 00:20:49.148 If you're not feeling great and you get dragged to the party by your 00:20:49.148 --> 00:20:52.804 other half, well, you're just going to be a miserable gitball, aren't you? 00:20:52.804 --> 00:20:53.898 Because you're not, you can't be sociable. 00:20:54.138 --> 00:20:57.458 So a lot of these dogs I work with down here who on the surface seem to have a 00:20:57.458 --> 00:20:59.358 problem, for example, with other dogs. 00:21:00.168 --> 00:21:04.728 dysregulation they're experiencing is the problem for them. 00:21:05.168 --> 00:21:07.268 And when we address that, now they have more bandwidth. 00:21:07.893 --> 00:21:09.173 And they can process things differently. 00:21:09.173 --> 00:21:09.513 Do you see? 00:21:09.643 --> 00:21:12.073 So it's just so universal, this stuff. 00:21:12.733 --> 00:21:16.833 Um, and actually, it's a lot easier in some ways. 00:21:17.403 --> 00:21:20.473 Because I find working with my clients, they don't want to become a dog trainer. 00:21:21.503 --> 00:21:23.663 They don't want to spend an hour a day doing stuff. 00:21:24.153 --> 00:21:27.383 And actually, this is the move from task to care that I'm so 00:21:27.383 --> 00:21:28.843 passionate about communicating. 00:21:30.063 --> 00:21:33.833 A task orientated approach is the normal transactional stuff. 00:21:33.833 --> 00:21:37.158 So the task is, Getting the dog to learn to sit, getting the dog 00:21:37.188 --> 00:21:39.958 to come back, getting the dog to stop barking, whatever the task is. 00:21:40.618 --> 00:21:43.448 The trouble with a task orientated approach, and if you have a task 00:21:43.448 --> 00:21:46.958 approach, it doesn't mean you don't care, but if your primary focus is to 00:21:46.958 --> 00:21:51.858 get the task done, you end up caring less about the other, more about the task. 00:21:52.368 --> 00:21:56.138 The trouble with a task orientated approach is, If the task can't be 00:21:56.138 --> 00:21:57.888 done, then somebody's to blame. 00:21:58.658 --> 00:21:59.708 Dog's not good enough. 00:22:00.218 --> 00:22:01.148 Client's not good enough. 00:22:01.158 --> 00:22:01.958 Caregiver's not good enough. 00:22:02.218 --> 00:22:06.458 And sadly, even for the dog trainer who is stuck in task themselves, they 00:22:06.458 --> 00:22:07.678 feel now they're not good enough. 00:22:09.128 --> 00:22:13.798 A care orientated approach is just that it's a subtle difference 00:22:13.818 --> 00:22:17.948 and it's a big one, which is learning from the other first. 00:22:18.878 --> 00:22:20.228 It's a relational thing. 00:22:21.008 --> 00:22:26.327 So, um, even my own dog, Molly, she came to us at 16 weeks. 00:22:27.968 --> 00:22:30.278 She'd already had two homes, very fizzy. 00:22:31.488 --> 00:22:34.228 We learnt from her first. 00:22:34.228 --> 00:22:38.208 So my mantra, if you like, is learn, support, teach. 00:22:38.928 --> 00:22:42.308 Learn from the dog first, support what you've learnt. 00:22:42.788 --> 00:22:45.768 And if you're going to teach anything, try and teach things that you've, 00:22:46.128 --> 00:22:49.018 based from what you've learnt, are likely to be intrinsically 00:22:49.018 --> 00:22:52.168 valuable for that dog, regarding their safety and regulatory needs. 00:22:52.558 --> 00:22:54.088 After that, you can train what you like. 00:22:54.908 --> 00:22:56.208 That's a care approach. 00:22:56.288 --> 00:22:57.998 A task approach is the other way around. 00:22:58.028 --> 00:23:00.488 I'm the human, you're going to learn from me, and I need you to do it. 00:23:00.938 --> 00:23:04.328 And I think the general public, especially, have been convinced 00:23:04.608 --> 00:23:07.148 that the most important things are well trained, obedient dog. 00:23:07.438 --> 00:23:10.618 And we've already got a problem then regarding that relational structure. 00:23:11.118 --> 00:23:12.108 Sorry, I went off on one then. 00:23:12.388 --> 00:23:12.548 Oh, 00:23:12.548 --> 00:23:13.028 Speaker: no, I love that. 00:23:13.058 --> 00:23:13.658 I love that. 00:23:13.678 --> 00:23:16.668 It's because, I mean, it just kind of makes so much sense. 00:23:17.928 --> 00:23:22.318 So in terms of creating 00:23:25.158 --> 00:23:29.698 a relationship, creating a situation where a dog can start to think, 00:23:30.728 --> 00:23:32.328 well, maybe I am safe here. 00:23:33.138 --> 00:23:36.958 I mean, what are some things somebody can do or be? 00:23:36.968 --> 00:23:40.648 Or like, how would one, you know, if I have a dog and I had a dog, 00:23:40.648 --> 00:23:45.112 you know, he got bitten when he was 11 months old and he was dead. 00:23:45.113 --> 00:23:48.353 And he was never quite the same when there was, you know, other 00:23:48.353 --> 00:23:50.263 male dogs in confined spaces. 00:23:50.283 --> 00:23:52.323 So you could really tell it was a trauma response. 00:23:52.333 --> 00:23:56.273 And you know my initial reaction was like, well that didn't help. 00:23:56.603 --> 00:24:02.533 But um, you know for him to, I mean he did get a lot better as 00:24:02.593 --> 00:24:05.793 we moved away to quieter spaces. 00:24:06.363 --> 00:24:09.813 So you know and I saw that with the other dog who was like a real sort 00:24:10.228 --> 00:24:15.468 He pulled a lot on the lead until we moved away and everything settled. 00:24:15.498 --> 00:24:19.888 Everything was calmer and both of them were like, are these the same 00:24:19.888 --> 00:24:21.938 dogs that we brought from Granada? 00:24:22.228 --> 00:24:25.198 So, but not everybody can go move to the beach. 00:24:27.248 --> 00:24:29.218 Speaker 2: No, and I think we have to, everything's a bit of a compromise. 00:24:29.218 --> 00:24:33.188 I love what you said there, especially about pulling, because a lot of 00:24:33.298 --> 00:24:36.758 the dogs that come to me, they pull a lot, and they pull a lot 00:24:36.758 --> 00:24:37.948 because their bucket's too full. 00:24:38.208 --> 00:24:38.908 Simple as that. 00:24:39.228 --> 00:24:44.338 And it's, um, because if you don't address the fact that, so when that nervous system 00:24:44.338 --> 00:24:47.478 elevates, they're likely to go quicker. 00:24:48.013 --> 00:24:51.183 And, and if that's because they've got generalized anxiety or they're triggered 00:24:51.183 --> 00:24:53.983 by the traffic or triggered by the social environment, unless you address 00:24:53.983 --> 00:24:58.393 some of that stuff, doing the stuff you do back in the training hall, I guess 00:24:58.393 --> 00:25:02.383 what, when in the village hall, the dog walks lovely, when you step outside, 00:25:02.383 --> 00:25:03.403 you're being dragged up the road. 00:25:03.433 --> 00:25:05.543 And that's because that nervous system is in a different state. 00:25:05.793 --> 00:25:08.033 Everything is always about slowing things down. 00:25:09.443 --> 00:25:12.703 Removing our own judgments around behavior and recognizing, okay, that behavior, 00:25:12.723 --> 00:25:15.943 whilst I recognize it's irritating me, or it's affecting me, whatever, 00:25:16.253 --> 00:25:19.273 that that's actually a demonstration that my dog's struggling somehow. 00:25:19.623 --> 00:25:23.323 Always get a vet check, always look for pain, physical pain, there's so 00:25:23.323 --> 00:25:27.223 many studies on this now, is often a contributing factor, especially 00:25:27.233 --> 00:25:33.653 the neuropathic stuff, obviously the acute kind of, um, orthopedic style 00:25:33.673 --> 00:25:37.433 thing, uh, you know, like broken bones or it sticking out, whatever, 00:25:37.433 --> 00:25:39.553 then that's easier to spot sometimes. 00:25:39.553 --> 00:25:40.883 But some of the neuropathic stuff isn't. 00:25:41.013 --> 00:25:43.883 I mean, uh, chronic pain is misunderstood even in humans. 00:25:44.523 --> 00:25:47.743 And then we have to start thinking about the context and situations where the 00:25:47.743 --> 00:25:49.753 dog's likely to be experiencing that. 00:25:50.133 --> 00:25:54.053 And, um, start off with something that I like to call management and adaptation. 00:25:54.338 --> 00:25:56.428 People used to call that control and management, but I don't 00:25:56.428 --> 00:25:57.698 like the term control very much. 00:25:57.708 --> 00:26:00.438 So management, how do I manage the situation? 00:26:00.448 --> 00:26:03.448 How do I manage my dog's life for now to try and remove 00:26:03.458 --> 00:26:04.628 some of these extra stresses? 00:26:04.628 --> 00:26:04.938 Maybe. 00:26:05.718 --> 00:26:09.068 That isn't the best environment to lead, to take them in, or to do things with, 00:26:09.108 --> 00:26:12.548 um, the wonderful Nikki French wrote a book called Stop Walking Your Dog, which 00:26:12.548 --> 00:26:17.018 is quite, it's to get people's attention, but it's always giving people permission 00:26:17.018 --> 00:26:18.778 not to for a bit, if that will help. 00:26:19.258 --> 00:26:21.918 And then the adaptation is about how do we adapt the environment, but 00:26:21.928 --> 00:26:25.888 also how do we adapt, how do we make adaptations to our own expectations. 00:26:27.518 --> 00:26:31.878 For now, it's not forever, it's just recognizing, and so if, if we 00:26:31.878 --> 00:26:35.558 avoid situations, it's not a cop out, it's a sign of a great carer. 00:26:36.688 --> 00:26:39.558 You know, um, if my husband was, what, somebody who 00:26:39.568 --> 00:26:40.968 struggled socially, he doesn't. 00:26:41.348 --> 00:26:44.858 Uh, but if he did, um, and, um, I, I wouldn't go down the pub 00:26:44.948 --> 00:26:47.198 with him on a Saturday afternoon, because it's too much for him. 00:26:47.238 --> 00:26:49.868 We'd go when it was quieter, because I don't want to see him get upset. 00:26:50.658 --> 00:26:54.948 So, it's just how we approach these things, then, There are 00:26:54.948 --> 00:26:58.248 three really important words that are foundated in safety. 00:26:58.808 --> 00:27:01.088 Processing, engagement, and exit. 00:27:02.628 --> 00:27:06.288 Processing, uh, what do we need to process in order to feel safe? 00:27:06.288 --> 00:27:08.458 What information would be helpful now? 00:27:10.238 --> 00:27:14.758 And, what might be stopping us from having that ability to process? 00:27:14.758 --> 00:27:17.068 Remember, if the bucket's too full, we can't process very well. 00:27:17.308 --> 00:27:19.408 We haven't got enough doors open, we can't process very well. 00:27:20.248 --> 00:27:21.338 Processing, very important. 00:27:21.418 --> 00:27:22.318 And then engagement. 00:27:22.818 --> 00:27:24.988 The brain wants to feel it has choice. 00:27:24.988 --> 00:27:25.108 Process. 00:27:25.813 --> 00:27:29.173 And agency over how it engages with the world around it. 00:27:29.503 --> 00:27:32.053 Socially, emotionally, physically, mentally, however 00:27:32.053 --> 00:27:33.023 you want to think about things. 00:27:33.983 --> 00:27:37.353 In the relation to reactive, innovative, reactive dogs, uh, dogs, um, then 00:27:37.353 --> 00:27:38.953 obviously that's where thinking socially. 00:27:40.033 --> 00:27:42.433 And if we do engage, we want to feel we can have an exit. 00:27:43.623 --> 00:27:45.353 Again, emotionally, mentally, physically, whatever. 00:27:46.273 --> 00:27:48.993 Or, if we don't want to engage, we feel we can have an exit. 00:27:49.563 --> 00:27:54.793 Trauma is very foundated in lack of choice and agency over engagement and exit. 00:27:55.453 --> 00:27:57.953 You found yourself in a situation you couldn't cope with, like you were saying 00:27:57.993 --> 00:28:00.013 about your doggy, and you couldn't exit. 00:28:00.143 --> 00:28:01.023 That is traumatic. 00:28:01.513 --> 00:28:04.653 Whether or not it becomes traumatizing very much depends upon 00:28:04.663 --> 00:28:07.643 the individual's resilience and robustness and past experiences. 00:28:08.623 --> 00:28:13.823 So, um, a lot of the time then we have to think about how, not just 00:28:14.033 --> 00:28:19.893 cognitively, But also that nervous system experience of the world around them. 00:28:20.383 --> 00:28:23.463 We talk about learned behavior a lot, so somehow that is always 00:28:23.463 --> 00:28:24.943 done in a cognitive space. 00:28:25.373 --> 00:28:29.123 The nervous system is listening in all the time too, and it learns a lot of stuff. 00:28:29.423 --> 00:28:32.713 And actually, when we think about safety, Anke, it's not 00:28:32.713 --> 00:28:33.863 the brain we have to convince. 00:28:33.893 --> 00:28:35.243 Obviously, the nervous system is part of the brain. 00:28:35.243 --> 00:28:37.233 I'm going to disconnect a little bit. 00:28:37.233 --> 00:28:40.423 This is the whole polyvagal stuff, of course. 00:28:40.473 --> 00:28:40.953 Polyvagal theory. 00:28:40.953 --> 00:28:45.473 But, um, uh, the nervous system has to believe it too. 00:28:46.498 --> 00:28:48.208 Speaker: I think that's the big thing, isn't it? 00:28:48.208 --> 00:28:51.968 Like, you know, logically, you might kind of know, well, yeah, 00:28:51.988 --> 00:28:55.708 this is fine, but then in your gut, you're not feeling it, right? 00:28:55.708 --> 00:28:56.978 So there's a whole different 00:28:57.818 --> 00:28:59.028 Speaker 2: I just want to touch on that, because that's brilliant. 00:28:59.028 --> 00:29:05.283 I love this, because when we think about safety When we think about safety in 00:29:05.283 --> 00:29:11.033 another, if I'm thinking about you and your safety, we have a physical bias, 00:29:11.813 --> 00:29:15.633 because it's what I can evidence base, you look safe, so therefore you're safe. 00:29:16.833 --> 00:29:22.193 But our own brain is just as if not more focused on emotional 00:29:24.673 --> 00:29:28.223 And that's why you can be safe physically and not feel it. 00:29:28.473 --> 00:29:29.483 That's the problem. 00:29:29.953 --> 00:29:33.103 And I said earlier about the doors that are likely to start closing 00:29:33.113 --> 00:29:35.163 first for the dogs are the ones who put the training behind. 00:29:36.643 --> 00:29:39.743 For us humans, the doors are likely to start closing first. 00:29:40.343 --> 00:29:44.803 is our more human cognitive parts of the brain, that prefrontal cortex. 00:29:45.703 --> 00:29:49.073 The doors that are likely to stay open for us are again our survival stuff. 00:29:49.073 --> 00:29:53.473 So this is why, you know, when people say, oh, you know, you're okay, get over 00:29:53.473 --> 00:29:57.213 it, or you know, just think positive thoughts, it's like, okay, I'll try that. 00:29:57.213 --> 00:30:03.443 But if the nervous system doesn't believe it, It internalizes quite 00:30:03.443 --> 00:30:04.953 a lot of conflict, actually. 00:30:06.173 --> 00:30:09.553 Uh, and, uh, so it's interesting, and it's the same for the doggy. 00:30:09.723 --> 00:30:12.753 And what's also interesting, if anybody might think, oh, well, you 00:30:12.753 --> 00:30:16.483 know, they're dogs, and why is he talking a lot of human y stuff? 00:30:16.963 --> 00:30:21.538 I can tell you now, when I did my human psychology degree, A 00:30:21.538 --> 00:30:23.098 long time ago, 30 years ago. 00:30:23.508 --> 00:30:28.088 Um, most of the stuff we learned about attachment theory, everything's 00:30:28.088 --> 00:30:29.808 about attachment for a social species. 00:30:29.808 --> 00:30:32.058 Seeking secure attachment is everything. 00:30:32.888 --> 00:30:35.568 Attachment theory, social pain, social processing. 00:30:35.928 --> 00:30:38.008 We learned from studies on monkeys and dogs. 00:30:39.268 --> 00:30:42.708 And the trouble is our human ego back then didn't allow us to think about 00:30:42.708 --> 00:30:45.998 the animals, just what does it tell us about us and we're somehow special. 00:30:46.328 --> 00:30:49.008 Behavioral science is now kind of saying to us, maybe we're not that special. 00:30:49.818 --> 00:30:52.098 Maybe on a very deep, visceral level. 00:30:52.953 --> 00:30:57.513 There's a lot that unites us because we're social mammals and, uh, the need for, 00:30:58.083 --> 00:31:02.953 to feel hard when you're communicating need, the need to feel safe physically, 00:31:02.953 --> 00:31:06.583 emotionally, socially, and the need to find relief, especially away from 00:31:06.583 --> 00:31:08.183 physical, emotional and social pain. 00:31:10.908 --> 00:31:16.348 Speaker: That's such a, like, it kind of like, oh, this makes so much sense. 00:31:16.388 --> 00:31:24.378 And I would imagine, like, if you work with a dog and their person, I bet 00:31:25.288 --> 00:31:29.488 my last dollar that there's impact on the dog and impact on the person. 00:31:30.858 --> 00:31:31.298 Speaker 2: Oh, always. 00:31:31.318 --> 00:31:37.298 I think, um, for the majority of my clients, When they start to connect to 00:31:37.298 --> 00:31:41.488 their dog in a more relational way, they see beyond the judgments of the behavior. 00:31:42.518 --> 00:31:46.238 They recognize that there is an animal generally trying to communicate, and that 00:31:46.238 --> 00:31:50.288 behavior, that's the only way a dog can communicate is through their behavior, 00:31:50.558 --> 00:31:54.678 and we allow them to paint their picture more fully, and we understand their relief 00:31:54.678 --> 00:31:56.278 and safety needs, and we support them. 00:31:56.668 --> 00:32:01.113 They can't help but mirror their own, and they're like, you know what, I can see 00:32:01.223 --> 00:32:04.983 where the damage was done myself with my own insecure attachments, where my, where 00:32:05.043 --> 00:32:08.933 I was shut down, where I haven't felt safe when I was in that relationship. 00:32:08.933 --> 00:32:10.923 And it's really all these kinds of things that come out and 00:32:10.933 --> 00:32:13.373 you can't not, you can't not. 00:32:13.383 --> 00:32:18.993 There are some clients, of course, who, because of their own, we 00:32:19.023 --> 00:32:22.223 have the three A's, awareness, acknowledgement, acceptance. 00:32:22.233 --> 00:32:24.633 That's what, that's the journey we all have to go through. 00:32:25.223 --> 00:32:30.763 So my role is to support the awareness of my, of the, of the 00:32:30.763 --> 00:32:36.533 client, support the awareness of the client, of their dog's experience. 00:32:37.673 --> 00:32:42.133 And then, so for example, they might start off by thinking, oh yeah, well my dog's 00:32:42.133 --> 00:32:47.473 being naughty, disobedient, my dog's being dominant, of course, that's a good, so 00:32:47.473 --> 00:32:49.073 I'm helping to support their awareness. 00:32:49.463 --> 00:32:53.228 So then, uh, Then they might become aware, well maybe my dog isn't those 00:32:53.228 --> 00:32:56.278 things, maybe my dog's stressed or uncomfortable or not coping. 00:32:56.738 --> 00:32:58.548 Then I need to support their acknowledgement of 00:32:58.548 --> 00:32:59.688 that, and that can be hard. 00:33:00.378 --> 00:33:03.388 That can be hard acknowledgement, especially if they've been brought up, for 00:33:03.388 --> 00:33:10.418 example, in a very um, very controlling environment as a child, very strict, 00:33:10.438 --> 00:33:13.828 there has to be a consequence, you know, you can feel what you like Anke, 00:33:13.878 --> 00:33:15.908 but don't show it, that kind of stuff. 00:33:16.128 --> 00:33:18.618 That can be hard for people to navigate, so some people can't. 00:33:18.908 --> 00:33:21.228 The big one for acknowledgement is guilt. 00:33:21.878 --> 00:33:24.418 Speaker: I was just thinking it's like then, then your mind goes, Oh 00:33:24.418 --> 00:33:26.308 my God, I messed up my dog, right? 00:33:26.628 --> 00:33:29.658 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can just kind of touch on that before we finish actually 00:33:29.658 --> 00:33:32.118 Gil, because I think it's a really important, remember I said earlier, 00:33:32.488 --> 00:33:37.038 everything is okay to feel, it's how we change our relationship with them. 00:33:37.598 --> 00:33:38.508 So with guilt. 00:33:39.903 --> 00:33:43.493 If we allow it, it will, it will keep us chained to the past. 00:33:44.303 --> 00:33:47.323 So if that client thinks, Oh God, I put that collar on my dog now 00:33:47.323 --> 00:33:48.423 and I feel really bad about it. 00:33:49.203 --> 00:33:53.683 If they stay thinking in the past, they will stay chained to the past 00:33:53.713 --> 00:33:55.343 and guilt can eat away at you. 00:33:56.543 --> 00:34:00.793 Whereas if we, instead of saying to clients or anybody 00:34:00.793 --> 00:34:01.883 saying, well, don't feel guilty. 00:34:01.883 --> 00:34:02.763 I don't say that. 00:34:02.803 --> 00:34:03.653 I say, feel it. 00:34:04.783 --> 00:34:08.153 Because, but we can change your relationship with it. 00:34:09.163 --> 00:34:15.753 Because, uh, what that tells us is that deep visceral feeling tells 00:34:15.753 --> 00:34:21.533 us we've learned something really important and we can allow that to 00:34:21.533 --> 00:34:24.383 drive our responses moving forwards. 00:34:24.383 --> 00:34:25.613 It's not about the past anymore. 00:34:26.013 --> 00:34:27.293 And that's the power of it. 00:34:27.303 --> 00:34:30.203 It tells us, you know, I feel this very deeply. 00:34:30.703 --> 00:34:33.933 And so, so, and I'm going to use that feeling to now make sure that. 00:34:34.568 --> 00:34:36.738 It's that whole kind of know better, do better. 00:34:37.198 --> 00:34:38.368 It drives us forward. 00:34:38.388 --> 00:34:40.358 So now we break the chain to the past, actually. 00:34:40.358 --> 00:34:44.058 So those feelings, they're uncomfortable for a reason, Anke. 00:34:44.803 --> 00:34:46.533 Because we've learned something pretty important, I think. 00:34:46.533 --> 00:34:46.733 And, and 00:34:46.893 --> 00:34:50.203 Speaker: that's, that's a beautiful way to look at it, because then you acknowledge 00:34:50.203 --> 00:34:54.063 it, and you don't have to sort of shove it down, but it's also like not gonna 00:34:54.073 --> 00:34:58.783 run the show now, and it is so true, like if you can feel guilty, profoundly 00:34:58.803 --> 00:35:02.373 guilty, and kind of embarrassed about some things, because you've really, 00:35:02.633 --> 00:35:05.723 you know, it's kind of like almost like your notification bell that you've had 00:35:05.723 --> 00:35:10.838 a massive insight, and really, because at the end of the day, we always do What 00:35:10.848 --> 00:35:15.938 makes sense to us, given what we know, given how we understand the world, is 00:35:15.938 --> 00:35:17.948 we always do what makes sense to us. 00:35:18.418 --> 00:35:22.058 You know, and I think understanding and giving ourselves like that, like 00:35:22.078 --> 00:35:26.558 slack for that, like whatever we did, like, that's what made sense given 00:35:26.558 --> 00:35:28.268 how we saw the world at the time. 00:35:28.538 --> 00:35:33.168 So I think the main thing is to, well, let's just not take it as 00:35:33.168 --> 00:35:37.768 a given and be open to for new insight to, to, to change things. 00:35:37.978 --> 00:35:38.218 Yeah. 00:35:38.258 --> 00:35:40.138 That makes all the difference. 00:35:40.138 --> 00:35:43.388 Speaker 2: If we get through the acknowledgement and get to acceptance, 00:35:43.488 --> 00:35:47.608 where the person think actually I accept my dog as they are now. 00:35:48.093 --> 00:35:50.353 And I accept the limitations now. 00:35:50.393 --> 00:35:52.743 It doesn't mean that's forever, but I accept this. 00:35:53.203 --> 00:35:59.712 We also know from, um, studies and surveys done with humans and with 00:35:59.713 --> 00:36:04.643 children with various behavioral needs, that when they get to acceptance, it 00:36:04.803 --> 00:36:06.663 unlocks the advocacy part of the brain. 00:36:06.663 --> 00:36:10.078 And that's a beautiful thing because a lot of the time people feel very 00:36:10.078 --> 00:36:13.158 vulnerable with their dogs because of the fear of judgment of others, 00:36:13.188 --> 00:36:14.548 you know, if your dog's barking. 00:36:14.548 --> 00:36:17.878 The beautiful thing about getting to advocacy is it's the best shield to that 00:36:17.878 --> 00:36:21.678 judgment because then you're like, you know what, I don't care what you think. 00:36:21.718 --> 00:36:22.908 I will hold space for my dog. 00:36:22.928 --> 00:36:25.848 I know what my dog needs and that's my primary role as a caregiver, 00:36:26.168 --> 00:36:27.328 whether it's the dog or the child. 00:36:27.328 --> 00:36:28.078 So it's a beautiful thing. 00:36:29.038 --> 00:36:29.568 Speaker: I love that. 00:36:29.878 --> 00:36:30.388 I love that. 00:36:30.758 --> 00:36:31.638 Thank you so much. 00:36:31.638 --> 00:36:33.268 There's so much food for thought here. 00:36:33.308 --> 00:36:35.198 This is just a beautiful space to. 00:36:35.848 --> 00:36:36.938 hang out in, actually. 00:36:37.618 --> 00:36:40.768 So where can people go and get more of you, find out, get in 00:36:40.788 --> 00:36:43.488 touch, find out about what you do? 00:36:44.278 --> 00:36:46.468 Speaker 2: Well, it's a big thing, you know, because when you do have a mindset 00:36:46.468 --> 00:36:49.618 shift, we've touched on it a little bit today, it unlocks a lot of stuff, right? 00:36:49.648 --> 00:36:52.218 Because it's like, oh, because we're so conditioned into seeing 00:36:52.218 --> 00:36:54.858 behavior in a certain way, not just in dogs, but in each other, actually. 00:36:55.318 --> 00:36:59.348 Um, so, uh, we need safe spaces to unpack this. 00:36:59.358 --> 00:37:02.678 And that's what I've tried to do with my dog center care Facebook group. 00:37:02.958 --> 00:37:04.454 I do Facebook lives in there. 00:37:04.454 --> 00:37:08.318 Um, and Um, I've had about 90 so far, and these are with leading experts 00:37:08.318 --> 00:37:13.648 on trauma, pain, learning experience, neurobiology, um, attachment, all 00:37:13.648 --> 00:37:15.008 the things we've discussed today. 00:37:15.238 --> 00:37:19.458 These are leading experts in their field, um, and all those conversations are on 00:37:19.458 --> 00:37:21.328 the Dog Centre Care YouTube channel. 00:37:21.348 --> 00:37:22.238 It's all free. 00:37:22.808 --> 00:37:27.588 Um, I do some stuff to camera myself occasionally, uh, if I, if I feel 00:37:27.588 --> 00:37:28.497 I want to have a bit of a break. 00:37:30.628 --> 00:37:33.728 But it's mainly my guests and I really value them because it takes many voices. 00:37:33.728 --> 00:37:34.338 This is the point. 00:37:34.368 --> 00:37:36.158 And I think we have to have all these threads together. 00:37:36.508 --> 00:37:37.968 Uh, so yeah, so those are two things. 00:37:37.968 --> 00:37:43.948 Also, um, my website for this kind of stuff is, um, www. 00:37:43.998 --> 00:37:45.028 dogcc. 00:37:45.068 --> 00:37:45.638 org. 00:37:46.298 --> 00:37:50.198 And that's where you can find, if you're interested in hearing more of me, uh, 00:37:50.198 --> 00:37:53.778 when I've been on podcasts or articles I've written or, or things like that. 00:37:53.778 --> 00:37:54.938 So that's all in one place. 00:37:54.938 --> 00:37:56.528 But yeah, I think it's just. 00:37:57.413 --> 00:37:58.063 I just love it. 00:37:58.193 --> 00:38:03.273 I love, I love the gift of compassion and empathy. 00:38:04.643 --> 00:38:11.783 We have to sadly tap into it sometimes because it doesn't come easily with the 00:38:11.783 --> 00:38:16.423 kind of way that we are living our lives sometimes because of all these things. 00:38:16.423 --> 00:38:19.459 But I think when we can have those moments and those safe spaces to 00:38:19.459 --> 00:38:23.073 tap into it, and we become more available to the truth of others. 00:38:23.703 --> 00:38:25.573 It allows us to learn our own truth more. 00:38:26.373 --> 00:38:29.023 And that's a hugely beautiful and valuable 00:38:29.033 --> 00:38:29.333 Speaker: thing, 00:38:29.333 --> 00:38:29.623 Speaker 2: I think. 00:38:30.603 --> 00:38:31.113 Speaker: Love that. 00:38:31.593 --> 00:38:33.183 That's such a beautiful place to land. 00:38:33.213 --> 00:38:39.133 Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and such, such a breadth. 00:38:39.163 --> 00:38:42.083 But I think there's so much depth to it that it's just like, ooh, can't 00:38:42.193 --> 00:38:44.103 wait to dive in more into that. 00:38:44.103 --> 00:38:45.013 So thank you so much. 00:38:45.043 --> 00:38:50.323 And I would, I'm kind of already thinking, ooh, I want you back for another episode. 00:38:50.913 --> 00:38:51.583 It's been a great pleasure. 00:38:51.583 --> 00:38:51.963 Thank you. 00:38:52.523 --> 00:38:53.033 Thank you. 00:38:54.374 --> 00:38:55.604 Thanks so much for listening. 00:38:56.124 --> 00:39:00.424 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:39:00.524 --> 00:39:02.304 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:39:03.094 --> 00:39:06.584 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:39:07.014 --> 00:39:12.584 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:39:12.684 --> 00:39:15.054 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:39:15.054 --> 00:39:18.784 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:39:19.204 --> 00:39:20.344 I'd love an introduction. 00:39:20.824 --> 00:39:22.654 Email me at Anke. 00:39:22.924 --> 00:39:27.159 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.