📍 the environment is a reflection of who we are. it was the first opportunity I had, in my
entire life at that time to sit down with somebody and
have open, honest dialogue
about fear.
📍
📍 Welcome to Lonely At the Top, a podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight
of the world. Because you know, the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and
pressure that comes with power.
Lonely at The Top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host Soul Medic and Farmer
psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. Today with us we have Daniel Graham. Daniel worked for
Sony Corporation for 30 years, beginning as an office administrator, organizing office supplies
in their first manufacturing operation outside of Japan, and he went on to become the manager
of all logistics operations for Pittsburgh and San Diego.
After retiring, he was continually sought out as a consultant for a number of years until he
insisted upon retirement. He now works as a fashion and wedding photographer, which is how
I know him. Dan, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much.
Listeners may realize that I am still recovering from a little bit of a throat issue, a little bit of a
cold or something that I've been dealing with, but otherwise I'm feeling good. So I always like
to talk about how I know guests on the show, and we know each other actually through the
photography you've done.
Folks who've seen my website, if you see any really beautiful pictures of me, those are pictures
that Dan took. It's fun to have you here. We were talking about another project and then
chatting about your background. And as you were telling me some stories about your
background, I just thought this would be a really interesting
thing to talk about on the show because first of all, I like to feature people from different kinds
of experiences. I have people who went to law school and people who have PhDs, and people
who come from different walks of life in terms of ethnicity, orientation, gender, and I, I haven't
yet, I don't think had somebody who came from
more humble beginnings, education wise. So that's something I'm interested in. And then
somebody who's basically spent almost their whole working life with one company.
You're right. The humble educational background is, something that, I'm actually proud of to a
certain degree. I graduated from high school in 1964. I went to community college. Actually
that's where I began my photography career in a sense.
Uh
I wanted to be a journalist.
That was my initial desire so I went to school for that purpose. And, at the time, we were
required as students to go out and interview people. so I would go and I would start the
interview, but then I was told that eventually. I needed to take a camera with me so I could
photograph them for the newspaper so that we'd have an image of them. I'd never touched a
camera in all in my life at that time. And they gave me about an hour's, education on
photography and this is, not digital, it was back in 64 or 65
Yeah.
And so I went and I did that, and then they. Informed me that I actually had to learn how to not
only take the pictures, but develop them and print them and do page editing,
As we used to have to do. Yeah, you used to have to do everything.
everything. I ended up doing that and I enjoyed it and I thought I might, might make it a career.
but then, it got to a point where it wasn't sufficient income time uh,
Yeah.
uh, I ended up, strangely enough, going into the Marine Corps, at
Uh.
there was this thing called the Vietnam War.
Mm-hmm.
So I went into the Marine Corps and I ended up in Vietnam, which was an experience unto
itself. And
Yeah.
back and, started just working odd jobs then what happened was, essentially I found myself,
kind of in dire straits, to be honest with you, working for a fast food operation And I know I
didn't want to continue that as a path to my career. I didn't really know what that career would
be,
but Sony Corporation had just opened up a, a facility, the first one, outside of Japan. And I was
hired and I, started the responsibility of consolidating all office supply requirements. And at that
time, as I, mentioned before, there was no computers, so it was all paper
Mm-hmm.
inventory cards and so forth. So I put it all together and it worked. Then after about a couple
years of that, I was, asked by another department of Sony to be a computer operator.
Mm-hmm.
something that I had done just briefly, but they needed someone, they asked me to do it, and I
worked on the night shift. One of those night shifts I ended up afterwards in the cafeteria and
the CFO of Sony Corporation in the US sat down at the table and asked a very simple question
and I still don't understand why, to be honest with you, but he asked me, what did I want to
become at Sony? It took me by surprise and I said, I'd like to get into management someday. I
didn't know he was A CFO until later. Uh, and he said, if you trust me, I'll get you into
management. So I, it, chance he sent me to school. I became eventually responsible for all
accounts payables in San Diego. At that time, San Diego was the only operation,
Mm-hmm.
receivables, all of that. then he moved me into cost accounting. And about three or four
months later, he, contacted me
mm-hmm.
Informed me that he was going to move me from accounting to be the manager of, logistics
operations for San Diego.
Mm-hmm.
And, I told him I had no prior experience that field. But he thought I was, capable. So he gave
me that responsibility and I went from five people to 150 that I was responsible for.
As in managing.
as a manager
Wow.
yeah. All procurement and all material control operations and finished goods and all of that. It
was substantial.
So I'm curious,
Yes,
first of all, why did you want to be a manager? When the person sits down next to you at the
table and says, what do you wanna do in this company? You don't even know who it is.
right.
What made you say, I wanna manage people?
That's a very good point. I, I don't know why. I really don't have a very good answer other than
the fact that I wanted to prove to myself that I was a capable person in this field. So when that
opportunity arose, I, took the chance.
Uh, I know that title or your, podcast is lonely at the top. I can assure you that was a very
lonely moment because had a number of people that had lined up for the position. I just
jumped over them
Hmm.
with no experience at all. And these people had been there for maybe two, three years. They
had education and so forth. And here I am. The only thing I had going for me is they knew who
put me there. So I had a brief opportunity to make an impact.
what's your take on why that happened?
You bring up some very good questions, my dear. I really,
Well, you know, I did go to school for it.
As I said, I wasn't sure why the VP made that choice. When I told him that I wasn't qualified for
it. He says, I know you're not, but I can trust you and I know you have the skills. Now, he didn't
mean skills in terms of technical skills.
He meant people skills.
leadership skills and
did he know that?
There were times when I was in accounting. I made presentations on a monthly basis, he felt
the way I presented myself and presented the materials and so forth I was very organized, very
detailed and, very concerned about the future of the company. And I think that along with the
basic philosophy I have. That, the environment is a reflection of who we are. And if I can
change, the people, if I can convince the people to change, then perhaps we can actually
make headway.
So there's a level of responsibility that you were exhibiting. You were taking ownership of the
systemic problem.
Right, and he had seen, even from the beginning, and I didn't realize this, but as I said, I was
hired as an office administrator.
Mm-hmm.
I had to go to everyone and convince them, we're gonna take all your office materials that you
have stowed away somewhere in your desk, and so forth, and we're gonna consolidate 'em,
bring 'em to one area of the entire four plants, and some of 'em resisted.
Sure.
that I was able to handle that. then bring everybody together and organize it and keep track of
everything. then every month I'd have to deliver a report to upper management of how much
each of the departments spent because I was controlling it all now. So
Mm-hmm.
saw how I did all that organization, then that's how the CFO, I found out later recognized, oh,
you have some skills that we would
Ah, so that was not a chance meeting in the cafeteria.
That's right. It wasn't by chance. I found out
Okay.
later. And then because there was systemic problem occurring in logistics operations, that's
why I moved into logistics, all because of this, the history and the experience that they saw I
brought to the table. And, I knew I only had a very brief period of time in which to correct the
problem, maybe three to four months. And the first thing I did is I brought everybody together.
Not in just materials, but also in engineering, manufacturing and I would get them all together
and they'd love to complain about each other.
Mm-hmm.
So one time, it just took me one time had a meeting. They knew they had to attend because
the vice president forced them to do that. I had it in a conference room and there was no
windows, and they all sat in the conference room complaining when I walked in. And I listened
for about a minute and I said, how am I gonna re all these people in? So I walked over to the
light switch and I turned the lights off and
Okay.
it got so quiet so quickly and there was no conversation. And finally, someone said in the dark,
what are we doing here? And I explained, we have to make some changes. have to identify
what the real problems are and so forth. So after a while they said, okay, turn the lights back
on.
We'll work together. It, you know, it lasted for about, about 10 minutes and they started
complaining again. I went over to get the light switch , and they said, okay, nevermind. We'll
continue to work together. So it took a little while, but we were able to transition to a much
more cooperative and collaborative, uh, environment that finally resolved itself.
And then it took about three or four months and everything's worked out. Then a new VP
came in and and we were setting up a new operation in Pittsburgh.
Mm-hmm.
to me and asked me if I would, consider moving to Pittsburgh. To you set up a brand new
operation? It was huge. And, I said, okay. I was required several times to go to Japan to
provide uh, information in terms of the budgets and so forth, and to get approvals. And, I
remember one time another person who felt that my direction was not good,
Mm-hmm.
was going to challenge it. And I said, that's fine. walked into the Board of Directors
International. And as I walked in, heard my name called loudly from one of the board members,
and I looked up and who was there? The CFO, the same one, I saw the cafeteria
Hmm.
he had been promoted to CFO International.
So you had a very, it sounds like, successful career and I love the story of turning the lights off.
In therapy language, we'd call that a state shift.
Like doing something unexpected that shakes people out of the trench that they're in, in their
mind.
I'm curious 'cause you kind of have this demeanor of sort of being unflappable, just being very
measured and even. What is a leadership decision or season that really tested you?
This is probably one of the most difficult moments I've had, in a corporate environment. and,
you illustrated a very good point, and that is I'm unflappable when it comes to getting people
together and working with them on a project.
Mm-hmm.
Even people who didn't want to be together. And I felt very good about that. So the people
that worked for me, supervisors and so forth, we developed a very strong and comfortable
relationship, a very open dialogue. I realized as a manager of this huge operation that I could
not have done it on my own. There's no way. From ordering the materials to receiving the
materials, to storing them, and all the way through the process, there's no way. So I needed to
develop a system in which everybody felt empowered,
Mm.
To make a decision without me around. That means I had to make sure they were educated
and they recognized the impact of their decisions . And that worked extremely well, people
were comfortable, they were happy. And then I screwed up. The facility in Pittsburgh was
starting to have some issues. Demand was constantly changing, and from a supply viewpoint,
the lead times to bring materials in was two or three weeks, and they were making changes
quickly,
Mm.
and as a result of that, the numbers were being met.
Yeah. Sales.
And I was on the grill several times. It got to a point where I forgot why I was there. Not
necessarily was a manager of materials operations, but I forgot my mission in a sense not just
to make sure there was enough product going out,
Mm-hmm.
My mission included to make sure that everybody who worked for me enjoyed their job, and I
lost sight of that. And as a result, the unflappable nature became flappable.
Mm-hmm.
towards the people that I cared about the most, people that worked for me.
So you started becoming more emotionally reactive?
Right,
Yeah.
And I didn't even realize it.
Mm-hmm.
Every day there was another problem and another problem. And I got to the point where I'm
going, you know, this is, what's going on out there? I'm yelling at the people rather than trying
to work through the issues.
Mm-hmm.
So one day, I was in my office and I got a call from hr and HR says, we'd like to meet with you
Hmm.
And naturally the first thing I'm thinking about one of my employees I wasn't thinking about
myself necessarily.
Yeah.
I remember walking into the conference room and there's HR and there's my boss.
Oh.
And I remember, I was still taken aback, but I remember the HR person who I'd known for a
long time, she started telling me about the fact that some of my supervisors had come to her
about my behavior.
Mm-hmm.
And then more people came once, once the doors opened it, you know, it became,
Yeah.
so, then the vp, my boss said, you know, we might have to let you go if this doesn't change.
Wow.
uh, the thing I remember and you talking about being lonely, it wasn't the fact that I might lose
my job,
Mm-hmm.
It was the fact that I'd hurt so many people that I cared about.
Hmm.
That's the loneliness, I'm not trying to get emotional here, but that
Well we do that here. It's okay.
That was what impacted me more than anything else. It still does when I think about it.
Yeah.
excuse me. So remember actually falling apart right there in front of HR and my VP crying,
actually crying because I not recognize the impact of my behavior on the people that I cared
about. HR has, she said, this was on a Thursday. She says, take Friday off. and he said, we'll
see you on Monday. I said, okay. I, I couldn't leave the conference room and go talk to
anybody. I just left the building and went home,
Yeah.
And, on Friday, I get a call from hr, same person, and she says, how are you doing? And I said,
I'm fine. She says, just wanna let you know. That everybody's asking about you from your staff.
Hmm.
I know if you're okay, I realized again that going from feeling lonely because I had caused so
much pain to feeling somewhat wanted again,
Hmm.
Then the following day on a Saturday, my VP calls me and said, how you doing? I went through
the same thing with him he says, well, everybody came to him late Friday did you fire him?
Hmm.
said, no, we didn't fire him. Oh, good. We don't wanna lose him. We just wanted him to change
his behavior.
We just want him to stop yelling at us.
That's basically it.
Yeah.
So HR recommended sitting down with a psychologist
Mm-hmm.
discussing my behavior and, and where's it coming from and why, and all of that stuff.
Yeah.
it was the first opportunity I had, that I can remember in my entire life at that time to sit down
with somebody and.
have open, honest dialogue about fear. So that last, I forgot how many weeks to be honest
with you, but you know, once a week or maybe twice a week for a while, would go and we'd
have these discussions. I remember on Monday when I went back, after the weekend. I walked
in and all the supervisors were scared, you know, thought, oh, I was gonna really get mad now,
type of thing. And I went to the cafeteria and I ordered lunch for everybody and I said, we're
gonna have lunch together. And we went in the conference room and sat down and I said to all
of 'em, I don't want you worried about a thing, and I just want to tell you how much I
appreciate. And thank you for going to hr. So it helped you and it helped me. So everything
went from being lonely in a brief period of time to feeling wanted again, to feeling, as an
important, part of their process. You.
That's an amazing story. I really wanna thank you for being so transparent about it because I, I
think a lot of people, especially in leadership, because of the responsibility, they rarely want to
just be like, yeah, I screwed up.
Yeah.
I hurt people and it had an emotional impact on me.
Yeah.
Here's what I did to work on remedying it.
It shouldn't be that big of a story. It should be something we all do because we're all human.
We all make mistakes. We should all take ownership and take action to remedy our mistakes.
But it feels like we don't hear those stories very often and we certainly don't hear them very
often from leadership.
So I, I love that you shared that with us and that you can be honest about how that felt. My
guess is you were feeling lonely before you ever got called into HR. And tell me if you think this
is true, that part of what was feeling so lonely was you felt like you were the only one
responsible for making sure things got done or making sure they got fixed.
And so you were trying to make everybody else do it and being harsh about it because you
thought it was all on you.
Right. You're absolutely right. I think that's one of the fundamental things that I began
recognize. You already know this, but there are so many, critical times that you can go one way
or the other, and I
Mm-hmm.
time to put the people that worked for me. In a different light than being critical of them,
Mm-hmm.
them become a better leader, not just a manager. Managing product, managing operations,
that's one thing, but to forget the fact that the people that are actually doing the work are
people.
Yeah.
They have emotions and they have concerns, and they have things that are going on at home,
and they got all these things and to forget that was a disaster for me. just, as you said, I was
lonely and didn't even realize it. And it's something that I remember even up to today, and use
today in my life.
I try not to get to a point where I forget what's important, truly important, so.
that's great. I'm so glad we got this. Yeah, I love that story. So when you're at the top no one
really gets to see your balance sheet of burdens. It's kind of what we've already been talking
about. But here on the podcast, we like to open the private ledger and ask you to share three
things.
One cost of being in leadership, what did it cost you being in leadership?
Now that you understand, or at least I understand as well, what's important to me, the cost is
losing who I am.
Hmm. Yeah.
That is the real, real issue. I can make a good salary. I have a wonderful family. All those things
are great, but if I lose who I am as a person, then I lose everything. nothing else matters. I have
to keep compensating for that loss and I keep having to make up things and get angry and
Once these people that worked for me, went to hr, I had the opportunity to regain it
But anyway, that's, that's the greatest cost that I,
Yeah.
have.
So tell us one invisible asset you didn't realize you had at the time.
wow. Honesty.
With myself. And the recognition that if I couldn't be honest with myself, I couldn't expect
anybody to be honest with me.
mm.
So,
Yeah.
I mean, these are all, you know, soft issues. They're not hard issues like, losing inventory or.
Well, it's funny, but you recognize that it takes both things to make a system run, right? People
wanna work with and serve those that make them feel honored and respected. And that's all
soft. That's all soft skills. I hate that term honestly, but it's what we call it.
I didn't know what
Tell us one investment you're making now for your wellbeing or your spirit.
over 50 years ago after I got on the Marine Corps and all of that, because I'll be 80 in that of a
couple months.
Hmm.
about 50 years ago, I became a Buddhist.
Cool.
Okay? I am not trying to get into religion.
This is your experience, so everyone gets to have their own experience, right?
I became a Buddhist. and it was at a time in which it it was very, very difficult for me. I was into
drugs, not like cocaine and, in those days, didn't even have fentanyl available. But I was
Mm-hmm.
I was trying to find out who I was and what I was, and why I was, and all of those things back
in the, late sixties, early seventies, especially coming back from Vietnam
Of course.
I remember coming home one night stoned, after a
Mm-hmm.
and there was this group of people that were leaving the house next door to me. And, one of
them came up to me and I wasn't in any position to really understand her, but she said
something and I said, Uhhuh. And I went into my, apartment and next night a knock on my
front door. And I'm going, who could this? I have no idea. I opened the door and I didn't even
remember the woman, let alone what the woman was talking about. And she said, well, I'm
here to take you to the meeting. And I'm going, what? Now, keep in mind, I grew up, in a
Christian environment.
Mm-hmm.
Even one time in high school I was starting to take classes to be a priest.
Hmm.
Oh, yeah. To go from that, to Vietnam, come back, try to figure out what my life is all about,
and then hook up with a Buddhist. So I started going to activities and I began to realize
something that was very important to me and I was discovering over time the why of who I was
and why I existed and my purpose,
Mm-hmm.
and that's what's been throughout my entire life.
That's what got me through that issue at work
Mm-hmm.
is to. Instead of looking outside, I was looking inside and to have the strength and confidence
to realize that I have the potential to make that change was important to me.
Yeah.
that's the investment that I have made over the last 55 years, and the investment I have made
about who I am and what I am. So I can also recognize the potential in others and help them
as well.
Lovely.
What term do you use other than soft power?
I would say emotional intelligence, you know,
That's
or you could say, spiritual capabilities. I think that's lovely. And it makes sense to me. I can see
that. I can see the effect of that work in your life.
a result of
Yeah.
It has nothing to do with being a Buddhist. This is just a result of natural loss of fear.
I admit, I was thinking it. I was like, I wonder if he shaves his head.
No.
So I've got two more questions for you. One is, what do you wish more leaders felt permission
to say out loud?
Yeah. Very simple. I need help,
whether, as we've talked about, to increase emotional, capabilities or whether it's in a project
or whatever it might be. I've been around too many managers, who will not ask that question
Hmm.
want, will not, even consider.
They'll not allow themselves the vulnerability
right. Exactly. Exactly.
Nice. I agree. So we have one more question, but before I get to that question, I always like to
provide my guest a moment to say, Hey, you know, if somebody heard this episode and they're
interested in connecting with you. How would they get ahold of you? If somebody was
interested in your photography, how would they find you and are you open to any other
connection?
I'm open to any connection. I, I don't mind.
I think the easiest way is my website and I'm not necessarily trying to promote photography,
but on my website you can contact me. There's my Instagram account
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'd be happy to have coffee with them
We'll put it in the show notes, but if people are only listening, the website is
D as in dog, P as in Paul, G as in
Graham.
Graham. Well, that's your last name. Yeah.
That's
So it's DPG photos.
initials Daniel Patrick Graham.
There you go. So it's dpgphotos.com.
That's
Daniel patrick Graham. Well now they know how to get ahold of you. I'm gonna ask you our
last question.
If you could go back in time, we're opening the time machine picture, the doors are opening,
and you can go back in time. What would you say to yourself earlier in your career?
I think there's two things that I would say believe in yourself. and have the courage to
challenge others.
Boom. I love it.
that's it.
What a great set of stories. What a great lived experience you've had. I feel so grateful that you
got to come on the show and share that with us. I think there's some really important wisdom
that you got to share with us. Thank you for coming on the show.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
📍 Thanks for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll
give yourself permission to pause even just for a moment and check in with what you might be
carrying silently. You don't have to hold it all alone.
I work with high performers and leaders who want help cleaning up their secret messes. You
can learn more at RachelAlexandria.com. If you know another leader who would benefit from
hearing this show, would you send it their way? Because, yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it
doesn't have to stay that way.