{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "12.075", "endTime": "45.255", "body": "Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about Complex Trauma and Dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen: The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling. It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "45.255", "endTime": "69.505", "body": "Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to. We're all different, and all of our stories matter." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "69.505", "endTime": "75.345", "body": "As always, take care of yourself during and after listening, and we are so glad you're here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "85.72", "endTime": "114.29", "body": "Okay. This is wild, but because of all the cats at my house now, which I would like to point out, I am still allergic to. But all my children have their own cats now. It's been a whole thing over the last year. And and when the cats were being gifted, we were told that each cat heals one wound." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "115.090004", "endTime": "149.65001", "body": "And I have watched that unfold even with my avoidance of the cats. And I have seen these kids step up and take such good care of these cats. I just have learned a lot. But with that came the experience of Cat Nip and watching the cats play. And I brought this up in therapy just as, like, teasing about something funny that had happened." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "153.09", "endTime": "166.685", "body": "And, of course, it was like, there's a lot we can learn about Cat Nip medicine. And I was just like, oh my goodness. I can't even... I was just telling a story. But, of course, it's therapy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "166.685", "endTime": "177.3", "body": "Right? So what do we learn from Cat Nip? And how can we, like, incorporate that or apply that medicine? What... Is it symbolically?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "177.46", "endTime": "207.59999", "body": "Or what does it mean? All the things. But then my therapist was like, no, this actually really matters because catnip, the way it grows... And then she was telling me about how it grows. She's like, it is the plant medicine for multiplicity because it is like all ages, but ageless, but having many lives at once." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "208.29501", "endTime": "258.1", "body": "And she talked about how we all walk around with our whole history of ourselves all the time. And we are all those versions of ourselves, like everybody inside, every experience externally, how we experience that internally. This is what Cat Nip teaches us and talks to us about. She said, Cat Nip can help us remember what it's like to feel scared and also curious, to feel growth and change, to be still and to learn, to whisper lullabies, coo, sing, and rock. We learn through Cat Nip how to befriend ourselves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "259.7", "endTime": "273.345", "body": "That is what she read from her little book. It's a quote. If I get the citation, I will add it. But right now, I don't have it. And she talked about how Cat Nip can be like a soft blanket or a warm pillow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "274.065", "endTime": "302.605", "body": "And how when we're talking about therapy things, it is like there may be reactions that feel like they come from nowhere. Right? So we're talking about watching the cats play with the catnip and how they were being so silly and like literally bouncing off the floor and moving diagonally. Like, was wild. I've never seen anything like it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "302.685", "endTime": "343.2", "body": "And so she's talking about it might not make sense when we see our system or someone else's system doing something in now time that feels as if it is a reaction from nowhere, But when we have connection with them and context of memory, then it does make sense. So even neurologically, if we're talking about the tiger in the room, or is there actually a bear? Right? If if there's a tiger or a bear in the room in now time, everyone can see the tiger. Everyone can see the bear." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "343.28", "endTime": "376.92", "body": "We know how far away the bear is, or we can identify there's a tiger in the room in now time. We agree on it. We have the same trauma responses. We will try to flight or to fight or to freeze. But if I'm the only one who can see the tiger in the room and other people don't know there's a tiger there, then what I'm doing does not make sense or there's not context." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "377.925", "endTime": "437.715", "body": "What's coming up for me right now even in sharing that is when we had to close the first nonprofit, I could see tigers in the room and the board really trusted me with that and really followed with what is most important was the safety. And we had agreed when we started the nonprofit that the priority of... Like, when we're talking about being congruent with our values, safety had to be number one. So when there were things threatening safety, when there were tigers in the room, they listened to that and respected that even though on the outside to to most people just watching or to the new people who had just come, it didn't make any sense. I totally agree with that, and I'm so sorry for any distress or confusion, and also it doesn't make the tigers less real." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "439.715", "endTime": "485.41", "body": "Similarly, this happens in now time for marginalized populations. So BIPOC folks, immigrants, queer folks, that may be having an experience that is different from what other people are having. They are enduring tigers in the room that other people can't see. So people of privilege in different ways, part of that privilege is not having tigers in the room or as many tigers in the room. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "485.41", "endTime": "534.90497", "body": "But when we're talking about disability or poverty or marginalization or immigration or these kinds of issues, there are tigers everywhere. So some of us legit have a lot of tigers. So some of us really legitimately have a lot of tigers in the room, And it may be difficult for people in now time to understand because they do not have the shared experience. And then also, this can also happen when someone has tigers in memory time that other people cannot see in now time. So it looks like it does not make sense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "534.90497", "endTime": "563.405", "body": "And also, the context is in the memory, and as we get to know them, as they get to know themselves, that context surfaces. So not only can we identify that the actual tiger is in memory time, but we better know how to support people while they deal with their own tigers. We cannot rescue people from other tigers just like we... Like it is the... We have to rescue our own babies." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "563.99", "endTime": "596.16003", "body": "We also have to fight our own tigers. And that can be really, really hard and really, really terrifying. And also, being able to hold both and navigate between them is part of where our healing happens. So there may be parts of us that feel agitated or uncomfortable or ill at ease, or don't yet feel safe in now time. But we can learn to self soothe." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "596.64", "endTime": "636.875", "body": "And my therapist talked about how Cat Nip kind of works in the brain for the experience of those little cats, Kind of like a rocking chair works for us. And I thought of my hammock here in my office. It it... There's a self soothing, a rhythmic self soothing that is happening neurologically with the Cat Nip. And really, ultimately, what it does is a kind of rhythm reset so that when we need to cry, we can cry." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "637.435", "endTime": "693.38", "body": "And when we need to laugh, we can laugh. And when we need to rest, we can rest. She also talked about catnip as a kind of plant medicine that can travel through dreams and eases us gently into waking. So I thought of not just being in the hammock or soaking in the warm water, but also like the cool breezes moving through the air, that kind of feeling, that sort of sensory experience. And in fact, thinking about those kinds of details and sort of remembering or imagining those kinds of details can actually help your body sense them and help you become more embodied." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "694.625", "endTime": "760.61505", "body": "So when we talk about feeling embodied, we're talking about feeling in our bodies, in the present, in now time, in the actual world around us that we are perceiving accurately. So congruent with our values, but also undissociating enough that we can see accurately what's happening in the world around us. When that is harder to do, that is what we call DPDR, the depersonalization and derealization. So if depersonalization is feeling like not like a person. Maybe feeling not in my body, or like the body isn't mine, or like who other people see me as isn't even real, or that I'm imagining myself, or the wrong me's, or I lost my DID again, or what is that diagnosis again?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "761.09503", "endTime": "791.545", "body": "Those sorts of things and experiences are all the depersonalization. And depersonalization is fear experienced in a disembodying way. So fear is incident based. So it's trauma related. So it feels as if in trauma, it feels as if, I am not real because I'm not human." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "792.185", "endTime": "829.98004", "body": "But that's how we interpret it as children because we are being object ified. So as children, we gain meaning through the mirrors of the people around us and how they're reflecting who we are. And when someone objectifies us through any kind of abuse, then we become an object instead of a person. So it feels as if in that objectifying, we are being dehumaned. That's what depersonalization is." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "830.14", "endTime": "879.17505", "body": "It comes from memory time. Right? But the derealization is feeling as if the external world around us doesn't really exist, or that we've got something wrong, or that we're not perceiving it correctly, or maybe it's a dream, or it's not real, or maybe it's an illusion, or a trick in some way, or, like, we can't quite connect to it. That has to do with the shame, which really is externalized being put on us, but but is is the panic of attach... Like, it's an attachment response." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "879.255", "endTime": "913.54", "body": "So fear is an incident based, the trauma, the bad thing, the hard thing, whatever is happening. But with panic, it is attachment based. It means the bad thing is happening and I am alone in it. So, derealization has to do with the shame and attachment based panic, that deprivation of care, not being protected, not being nurtured, not being rescued, not being cared for. So is in effect a feeling of I am being abandoned." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "914.01996", "endTime": "954.065", "body": "So the world isn't real because there's no other humans in it. So depersonalization is like I am not real because I am not human. But derealization is like the world isn't real because there aren't other humans, or I do not belong with the other humans. And really where we wanna come to is sort of this non duality of relationship with ourselves and with our peoples, our ships in the external world. Where, like for me, this is just me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "954.065", "endTime": "974.18", "body": "Your stuff may not be the same. But for me with religious trauma, part of what comes up is that I can be loved without being owned. I can be close to someone without being possessed by them. Right? That's when it starts to get objectified." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "975.7", "endTime": "1024.475", "body": "I don't have to delay my care because of my circumstances. I can give myself choices and opportunities internally and externally because I actually am a human, and I am actually indeed living external world where there are indeed actual other humans. But that's so hard to hold on to. So it's really interesting with the Cat Nip because it can feel as if it's sort of in this very dreamy state. Like, when we watch those cats, even my oldest was like, mom, is the cat high right now?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1024.475", "endTime": "1042.93", "body": "Like, what is happening? Right? It's such a unique experience for the cats. And in a way, really, that's what's happening with dissociation, right? Because dissociation includes this process neurologically that has the natural cannabinoids effect." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1043.4049", "endTime": "1079.995", "body": "And that is what is happening physiologically, even though it's not intentional. So it can feel very dreamy and very fluid and very hard to... Like, blurry in a way where it's hard to find the outlines of things, whether that's myself or my parts or the world around me or other ships. But when we are more embodied, that's part of what happens is we find the edges. So here is the outline of who I am." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1079.995", "endTime": "1189.9249", "body": "Here is the outline of who you are. And then that can be disorienting and rough because it instead of the soft fluidity, I'm thinking again of that an anemone with the sort of waving tentacles in the water, or the seaweed in the water, those tentacles can feel as if they're poison or that seaweed can feel like it's a trap sucking you under because it is such a harsh waking up out of that blurred blob of not existing, whether that is me or the world around me with DPDR. So to have, like, a coloring page of just the scribbles where it's very abstract, to move into something with lots of details and shapes being outlined and having these hard edges can feel really painful and brutal as if all the edges disconnect us. When what really is happening is that those very outlines are what differentiates us, which actually makes us more solid, which actually makes us more available to each other. But we don't know that when we've had to stay inside because that feeling we have from complex trauma, we are so bad or so wrong, we have to get smaller and smaller and smaller until we don't exist." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1190.325", "endTime": "1267.755", "body": "And trying to agree maybe with infanticidal attachment or other experiences from complex trauma, when we have to agree that we don't exist or that we're invisible or that we're so small we're not ever gonna be in the way, those kinds of feelings pull us so far inside that we're literally talking about not taking up space in the world. So then to begin to take up space can be terrifying. It can be a very sort of harsh and heavy reentering into gravity kind of experience, like, sort of in space, kind of the way we experience it in time through the difference between going into a weekend or coming out of a weekend. So those Sunday night scaries as we move into Monday, that's what undissociating can feel like with DPDR. It can feel as if, woah, we got too solid too fast, and this is too hard." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1268.4751", "endTime": "1324.345", "body": "And also, we can do the gentle embodying of not only are we taking up space, but we are the ones who are showing up to keep ourselves safe enough. And we are the ones showing up to keep ourselves cared for enough, so that the reality we're reentering is not one of trauma and deprivation like memory time. The reality we're reentering is one in which we have some capacity to care well for ourselves beautifully and navigate danger carefully. It's not toxic positivity where we have to pretend everything's right in the world because it's not. There's a lot of problems in the world right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1324.6649", "endTime": "1392.325", "body": "And also, there are things that we have done and continue doing to keep ourselves safe. And there are moments to keep ourselves safe enough. And just like the kittens with their catnip, there are moments that are so safe, even if there are moments that they are safe and cozy, and we just want to be embodied and rest in that. And I'm thinking of, like, when I get to take a nap in my hammock, or when I get to walk with my feet in the ocean, or when I get to ride the train, or when there are clean sheets on my bed, or when we sit down to eat a really yummy meal with the kids. These are moments that bring comfort, but also even a kind of relief where we are getting both." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1392.325", "endTime": "1435.38", "body": "We are getting the care and not being harmed. So we can be relieved that we're not being harmed, but we're also comforted by the care we are receiving even from ourselves. And the most hilarious example of this that we came up with in therapy is how at the end of a very long day, how good it feels to go home, take off the bra, and go to bed. So I have the relief from that, and then also the comfort of resting in those clean sheets and closing my eyes and going to sleep. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1436.265", "endTime": "1440.185", "body": "It's everything that is Cat Nip for a woman." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1590.77", "endTime": "1612.975", "body": "Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope." } ] }