Interior Integration for Catholics

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Dr. Peter discusses in depth the difference between shame and guilt, which are so often misunderstood and confused, and we take a deep dive into the research about what kinds of effects shame and guilt each have on our psychological health and our relationships.

Show Notes

  1. Intro: Welcome to the podcast Coronavirus Crisis: Carpe Diem!, where by God’s grace, you and I rise up and embrace the possibilities and opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth in this time of crisis, all grounded in a Catholic worldview.   We are going beyond mere resilience, to rising up to the challenges of this pandemic and becoming even healthier in the natural and the spiritual realms than we were before.  I’m clinical psychologist Peter Malinoski and I am here with you, to be your host and guide.  This podcast is part of Souls and Hearts, our online outreach at, which is all about shoring up our natural foundation for the Catholic spiritual life, all about overcoming psychological obstacles to being loved and to loving.  
    1. Thank you for being here with me.  This is episode 39, released on October 26, 2020 and it is the third episode in our series on shame.  
    2. and it is titled: The Real, Radical, and Resounding Differences Between Shame and Guilt.  
      1. Two episode ago, in episode 37, we introduced shame as the silent killer who stalks us from within.  
      2. Last episode, episode 38, I invited you to see the signs of shame in yourself and others, to recognize shame in ourselves and in others, becoming better able to detect it.     
        1. That's important, because shame pulls us to allow our shame to remain hidden, unobserved, unrecognized for what it is.  
        2. Shame is tricky, it's slippery, it loves to camouflage itself. 
      3. Encourage you to listen to those last two episodes, very rich, RCCD community members discussing listening multiple times, really working on understanding.  
    3. Now that we have a much better understanding of shame from the last two episodes, we are going to take the next step.
      1. This episode will stand alone, I will give you the context.  

      1. Today, in Episode 39.  We are going to understand much more deeply the difference between shame and guilt. 
        1. Many people use them interchangeably they don't recognize a difference.  I feel bad with both of them because something is wrong.
          1. Shame vs. Guilt  Distinction.  I asked about this in intake evaluations.  

          1. Five negative emotions.  Anger, Sadness, Fear, Shame and Guilt.  

          1. What's the difference between shame and guilt.  

          1. Most people could not tell me the difference.  Rare that someone could give me a good answer.     

        2. Do you know the difference between shame and guilt?  Do your siblings know the difference? Does your spouse or significant other, do your friends, your kids, your siblings.  

      1. As we will see, it a crucial distinction -- because the upshot is that we work with them in very different ways.   

      1. focusing today recognizing the difference between shame and guilt
        1. Important psychologically
        1. Important spiritually
        1. Not just an idle curiosity, the kind of thing philosopher like to debate about 

        1. But a real world concern
          1. Brene Brown: I believe the differences between shame and guilt are critical in informing everything from the way we parent and engage in relationships, to the way we give feedback at work and school.

      1. Bernard Williams (1993) claims that guilt and shame overlap to a significant degree and we will not understand either unless we take both seriously.
      1. Catholic guilt or Catholic shame.  

  2. Review.  
    1. Shame has been very difficult to define.  Most definitions have been inadequate and very contradictory.  
    2. Shame mentioned only once in the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church. 
      1. CCC1216 on Baptism: Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship. 
    3. Shame not mentioned in Fr. Hardon's modern Catholic dictionary or in the Traditional Catholic Dictionary or in the 1917 Catholic encyclopedia.  
      1. Shame also not listed in the American Psychological Association's Dictionary of Psychology.  Ooops.  
    4. Brene Brown: 
      1. I define shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging – something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.
    5. Shame has five dimensions: shame is a primary emotion, shame is a bodily reaction, shame is a signal to us,  shame is an internal self-judgement, and shame is an action -- a verb (review).  
      1. Shame as primary emotion--  primary emotions are those that we feel first, as a first response to a situation. They are unthinking, instinctive, automatic emotions that we have.   Heartset
        1. Can be conscious or unconscious
        1. Held by a part of us. -- part of us burdened with shame.  Doesn't just come and go in waves
        1. Also a self-conscious emotion
        1. Also a moral emotion.
      6. Shame as a bodily reaction not under bodily control -- bodyset
        1. Hyperarousal -- this is where our sympathetic nervous system revs us up, gets into fight or flight mode in response to shame
          1. Heart starts racing
          1. Breathing quickens
          1. Pupils dilate
          1. Blood rushes to arms and legs
          1. Face can flush red 

          1. Get ready to defend ourselves or attack or run away 

        1. Hypoarousal, when the parasympathetic nervous system shuts us down -- freeze response, like a deer in the headlights
          1. Shut down.  Numb out.  Dissociate
          1. Head drops
          1. Breaking off eye contact
          1. Tightening up of muscles, curling up in a ball (spine) -- hunching to protect vital organs.  Making one's body smaller, less visible
          1. Feeling like ice water in the veins, cold freezing sensation
          1. Fluttering in belly.

      7. Shame as a judgment  -- a negative, critical, global judgment of who I am as a person. -- mindset  
        1. Part of me holds this disparaging perspective of myself
        2. Part of me accuses me of being incompetent, inadequate, worthless, unlovable, bad or even evil,
        3. A judgement about who I really am originally picked up from the perspective of an important other who was perceived as critical or rejecting. 
      8. Shame as a signal.  Shame has a function as a signal to us, as a warning.  
        1. Shame is a signal that there is a lack of attunement or an even more serious threat in one or more of our important relationships.  It has important function
        2. Shame functions as a "social threat detector" that signals us to modify or avoid behaviors that will cause us to be rejected by those we need.  

      9. Shame as action  -- a verb -- “shaming” is an action that is intended to cause someone else to feel inadequate, worthless, unlovable, a loser, etc.  for being or doing something that the shamer feels is wrong or undesirable.
        1. It is a quick way to control another person, especially one in a dependent positions
        1. It is a quick way for us to control ourselves.  Part of us is forced into the role of shamer to anticipate consequences.
      12. Shame has five dimensions: shame is a primary emotion, shame is a bodily reaction, shame is a signal to us,  shame is an internal self-judgement, and shame is an action -- a verb (review).  
  3. Definition of Guilt
    1. Three primary classes of definitions of guilt -- Moral State, Legal State, and Self-conscious, moral emotion.  
      1. Objective moral state
        1. Moral state:  Fr. Hardon's Catholic Dictionary:  A condition of a person who has done moral wrong, who is therefore more or less estranged from the one he offended, and who is liable for punishment before he has been pardoned and has made atonement.
        1. Focus on the objective moral state of a person.  Guilt is a moral condition
        1. Soulset -- condition of our soul
      5. Legal state -- court proceedings.  Someone is found guilty of a crime.  
      6. Guilt as a self-conscious and a moral emotion -- but not a primary emotion:
        1. American Psychological Association Dictionary of Psychology
          1. Guilt is a self-conscious emotion characterized by a painful appraisal of having done (or thought) something that is wrong and often by a readiness to take action designed to undo or mitigate this wrong. It is distinct from shame, in which there is the additional strong fear of one’s deeds being publicly exposed to judgment or ridicule. 

        1. Susan Krauss Whitbourne, Ph.D., ABPP, is a Professor Emerita of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. 
          1. Guilt is, first and foremost, an emotion. You may think of guilt as a good way to get someone to do something for you out of a sense of obligation, but it's more accurate to think of guilt as an internal state. In the overall scheme of emotions, guilt is in the general category of negative feeling states.  It’s one of the “sad” emotions, which also include agony, grief, and loneliness

        1. Negative Emotional Typology see  -  You feel guilty when you did something that caused harm to someone, and you hold yourself at least somewhat responsible. Imagine the feeling of running over the neighbor's dog while backing out of your driveway or mistakenly accusing your daughter of stealing cookies when your spouse actually took them.  
          1. Feeling guilty is often associated with moral transgression, i.e. committing a crime or a sin. 
          2. We need to distinguish feeling guilty (as an emotional experience) from being guilty (as a legal or moral judgment).
            1.  Someone may have committed a severe crime and be tried as guilty, without feeling any guilt.
            1. The opposite can also be true: you can feel guilty when, rationally speaking, you haven’t done anything wrong and no one holds you responsible. 

            1. For example, imagine you invite a friend to come over, and on the way to your house she has a serious accident. No one blames you, as you had no way of knowing this would happen, but you can nevertheless experience a great deal of guilt. If this happens, you basically mistake a causality – if you hadn’t invited her, she would still be alright – with a responsibility – that you could somehow have known or done something to prevent it.
          5. People who feel guilty often have the impulse to undo or repair their wrongdoing, for example, by refunding the financial damage -- a need to right the wrong done.  
            1.  If the damage is irreversible (e.g., if something unique has been destroyed) or if someone else’s trust has been irreversibly betrayed, the guilty person may instead try to atone for his wrongdoing, i.e. by punishing himself. 
          6. If someone feels guilty for doing something wrong that other people don’t know about, they will have an urge to confess what they did. In all three cases, the explanation seems that the guilt-feeling person wants to demonstrate that she is not a bad person, but merely a good person who did something bad.
      7. Review of Guilt
        1. Better defined that shame
        1. Simpler -- only three dimension rather than five.  

        1. Moral state -- that has been emphasized by the Church
        1. Also a self-conscious moral emotion  characterized by a painful appraisal of having done (or thought) something that is wrong and often by a readiness to take action designed to undo or mitigate this wrong.  

  4. Storytime with Dr. Peter
    1. I want to take us back to January 1976
    1. I'm in the second semester of first grade at St. Gabriel School in Neenah Wisconsin
    1. It's recess time after lunch -- and it's really, really cold, wind blowing, but in those days, the teachers sent you out for recess to burn off your energy.  So we were playing and running and jumping in the bitter cold sunshine.  All dressed up in a heavy coat, scarf, hat, mittens, snow pants and boots.  Frostbite was a real possibility, and we Wisconsin kids knew how to dress for the cold. 

    1. So it's time to come in so the kids are stomping the snow off their boots, unwinding scarves and pulling off mittens, putting everything into the little cubbies we have in the hallway.  

    1. And I took my scarf, hat, mittens, coat and boots off, and my snow pants
    1. I am absentminded.  As all my winter gear comes off, my mind a million miles away thinking of a book I've been reading while all the chattering and clamoring of first and second graders goes on around me.
    1. Then the whole hall goes silent.  I undressed too far.  To this day,  I don't know why, but I took my blue corduroy uniform pants off too.  And I am stand there in my mustard yellow uniform shirt, my green cardigan uniform sweater, and my whitey-tighties.  My Fruit of the Loom underwear.  You know it's Froot of the Loom because it says so in big letters on the elastic waistband.    

    1. That's right.  What you've had bad dreams about, what has woken you up in a cold sweat, what you were relieved to discover was just a dream -- well, in that hallway in January 1976 was my cold, hard reality.  

    1. At that point, everything seemed to go in very slow motion.  I saw the surprised faces of my fellow students, looks of shock and disbelief and a few smirks on the faces of the boys.  I looked down and saw my bare skinny white legs and my pants on the ground.  The blood rushed to face, and I could hardly move.
    1. Jan W., the biggest of the second grade girls she broke the silence by calling out in her big-girl voice -- "Peter took his pants off", accompanied by a pointing finger.  Then there was a collective gasp, then confusion and then a gale of laughter from some of the boys and the whispered twittering of "Did you see that?  He took his pants off!"
    1. I regained control of my body and with amazing rapidity, faster than I ever had before, I leapt into my pants zipped, snapped and belted them, and tried to pretend that nothing had happened.  I was filled with intense self-conscious emotions.  

  1. Shame and Guild are both Moral Emotions and self-conscious emotions
    1.  Haidt (2003) defines moral emotions as those “that are linked to the interests or welfare either of society as a whole or at least of persons other than the judge or agent” (p. 276).
      1. Moral emotions provide the motivational force—the power and energy— to do good and to avoid doing bad  Kroll and Egan 2004.  

    1. June Price Tangney, Jeff Stuewig, and Debra J. Mashek  Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior 2011  Annual Review of Psychology
      1. Shame, guilt, embarrassment, and pride are members of a family of “self-conscious emotions” that are evoked by self-reflection and self-evaluation. 
        1. Can be conscious or unconscious
        2. These emotions punish or reinforce behaviors
        3. shame, guilt, embarrassment, and pride function as an emotional moral barometer, providing immediate and salient feedback on our social and moral acceptability.
        4. When we sin, transgress, or err, aversive feelings of shame, guilt, or embarrassment are likely to ensue
        5. When we “do the right thing,” positive feelings of pride and self-approval are likely to result.
        6. The potential for feeling these emotions guides behavior -- can check us from doing wrong.  

    1. Shame vs. guilt from Tangney, Steuwig and Mashek 2011 Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior Annual Review of Psychology
      1. Three ways to distinguish shame and guilt (List them)  Type of eliciting event, public vs. private nature of the transgression, failure of self vs. failure of behavior.    Mythbusting.  
        1. Type of eliciting event -- lying, cheating, stealing, failing to help another, disobeying parents -- some acts lead to feelings of shame, others to feeling of guilt
          1. -- no prototypical shame-inducing vs. guilt-inducing behaviors.  

        2. Public vs. private nature of transgression
          1. Shame arises in public -- due to the exposure and disapproval of others because of some shortcoming or transgression
          1. Guilt happens in private -- an experience arising from the disapproval own's own conscience
          1. Not much research basis for this distinction
            1. systematic analysis of the social context of personal shame- and guilt-eliciting events described by several hundred children and adults (Tangney et al. 1994) indicated that shame and guilt are equally likely to be experienced in the presence of others. 

            1. Solitary shame experiences were about as common as solitary guilt experiences. 

            1. Even more to the point, the frequency with which others were aware of the respondents’ behavior did not vary as a function of shame and guilt
              1.  contradicts  the public/private distinction. 

            1. People focus on other's evaluations because they are already feeling ashamed -- looking for confirmation.  They are not feeling shame because of others' evaluations, which they can easily misinterpret.  

        5. Conceptualizing the fault as a failure of self vs. a failure of behavior
          1. First proposed in psychological literature by Helen Block Lewis in 1971, updated and revised by Tracy & Robbins (2004) appraisal-based model of self-conscious emotions
          1. Lewis:  Shame  involves negative evaluation of global self.  Guilt involves a negative evaluation of a specific behavior
            1. Listen to the difference:
              1. I did that horrible thing
              1. I did that horrible thing

          1. This third distinction is backed by the research.  experimental and correlational methods showing that internal, stable, uncontrollable attributions for failure were positively related to shame, whereas internal, unstable, controllable attributions for failure were positively related to guilt.
          1. What's the more painful emotion?  Shame.  Shame is the more painful emotion -- because it is about who I am rather than what I did.  It's about all of me.  

        8. Shame leads to hiding, guilt leads to amending.  
          1. Shame -- hide, escape, deny -- shame inducing experience
          2. Guilt -- more likely to lead to reparative behavior
        9. Focus of distress
          1. Guilt -- focus on the other person -- empathy, reaching out, wanting to make it ok. 
            1. Research on emotional dispositions demonstrates that guilt-proneness consistently correlates with measures of perspective-taking and empathic concern. 

          1. Shame -- self-absorption -- focus on me, reduced capacity for empathetic connections with others. 
            1. Research  shame-proneness is (depending on assessment method) negatively or negligibly correlated with other-oriented empathy and positively linked with the tendency to focus egocentrically on one’s own distress.
            2. Emphasis on the bad self derails the empathetic process.  
              1.  I'm in my own world of hurt, indequacy, and if I’m worthless and bad, what can I offer anyone else?

        10. Reactions to Anger
          1. Shame -- Across individuals of all ages, proneness to shame is positively correlated with anger, hostility, and the propensity to blame factors beyond the self for one’s misfortunes
            1. Shame as a disposition:
              1. Helen Block Lewis saw this in case studies in 1971 -- Humiliated Fury.  

              1. In fact, compared with those who are not shame-prone, shame-prone individuals are more likely to engage in externalization of blame, experience intense anger, and express that anger in destructive ways, including direct physical, verbal, and symbolic aggression, indirect aggression (e.g., harming something important to the target, talking behind the target’s back), all manner of displaced aggression, self-directed aggression, and anger held in (a ruminative unexpressed anger). 
                1. Breaking points.  

              1. Finally, shame-prone individuals report awareness that their anger typically results in negative long-term consequences for both themselves and for their relationships with others.
              1. Consistent with these findings, Harper et al. (2005) recently evaluated the link between shame-proneness and perpetration of psychological abuse in the dating relationships by heterosexual college men. Shame proneness was significantly correlated with perpetration of psychological abuse, and men’s anger mediated this relationship.

            1. Shaming -- situational factors
              1.  For example, in a study of anger episodes among romantically involved couples, shamed partners were significantly more angry, more likely to engage in aggressive behavior, and less likely to elicit conciliatory behavior from their perpetrating significant other (Tangney 1995b).
              1. Empirical evidence for the shame-rage spiral described by Lewis (1971) and Scheff (1987), with (a) partner shame leading to feelings of rage, (b) and destructive retaliation, (c) which then sets into motion anger and resentment in the perpetrator, (d ) as well as expressions of blame and retaliation in kind, (e) which is then likely to further shame the initially shamed partner, and so forth—without any constructive resolution in sight.

          1. Guilt:  
            1. Stuewig et al. (2006) examined mediators of the link between moral emotions and aggression in four samples. 
              1. They theorized that negative feelings associated with shame lead to externalization of blame, which in turn leads shame-prone people to react aggressively. 
              2. Guilt, on the other hand, should facilitate empathic processes, thus reducing outward directed aggression. 
              3. As anticipated, we found that across all samples, externalization of blame mediated the relationship between shame-proneness and both verbal and physical aggression. 
              4. Guilt-proneness, on the other hand, continued to show a direct inverse relationship to aggression in three of the four samples. 
              5. In addition, the link between guilt and low aggression was partially mediated through other-oriented empathy and a propensity to take responsibility.

        11. Psychological Symptoms
          1. Tangney, Steuwig and Mashek 2011 Moral Emotions and Moral Behavior  Are there intrapersonal or intrapsychic costs for those individuals who are prone to experience shame vs guilt? 
            1. Shame
              1. Research over the past two decades consistently indicates that proneness to shame is related to a wide variety of psychological symptoms. These run the gamut from low self-esteem, depression, and anxiety to eating disorder symptoms, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and suicidal ideation
              1. Robust findings The negative psychological implications of shame are evident across measurement methods, diverse age groups, and populations. Both the clinical literature and empirical research agree that people who frequently experience feelings of shame about the self are correspondingly more vulnerable to a range of psychological problems.
            4. What about guilt
              1. Although the traditional view is that guilt plays a significant role in psychological symptoms, the empirical findings have been more equivocal. Clinical theory and case studies make frequent reference to a maladaptive guilt characterized by chronic self-blame and obsessive rumination over one’s transgressions 

              1. Recently, however, theorists and researchers have emphasized the adaptive functions of guilt, particularly for interpersonal behavior

        12. Illegal, risk, and otherwise ill-advised behaviors
          1. Because shame and guilt are painful emotions, it is often assumed that they motivate individuals to avoid doing wrong. From this perspective, anticipated shame and guilt should decrease the likelihood of transgression and impropriety. 

          1. Guilt
            1.  Tibbetts (2003) found that college students’ guilt-proneness was inversely related to self-reported criminal activity.
            1.  Among adolescents, proneness to shame-free guilt has been negatively correlated with delinquency (Merisca & Bybee 1994, Stuewig & McCloskey 2005; although Ferguson et al.1999 found a negative relationship between guilt-proneness and externalizing symptoms among boys, the opposite was true for girls).
            1. Guilt-prone college students, too, are less likely to abuse drugs and alcohol (Dearing et al. 2005). 

            1. Even among adults already at high risk, guilt-proneness appears to serve a protective function. In a longitudinal study of jail inmates, guilt-proneness assessed shortly after incarceration negatively predicted recidivism and substance abuse during the first year post-release (Tangney et al. 2006).

          1. Shame
            1.  In studies of children, adolescents, college students, and jail inmates, shame does not appear to serve the same inhibitory functions as guilt (Dearing et al. 2005, Stuewig & McCloskey 2005, Tangney et al. 1996b). 

            1. To the contrary, research suggests that shame may even make things worse.
              1. Ferguson et al. (1999) found that shame-proneness was positively correlated with externalizing symptoms on the Child Behavior Checklist. 

              1. In a sample of college students, Tibbetts (1997) found a positive relationship between shame-proneness and intentions toward illegal behavior. 

              1. Shame-proneness assessed in the fifth grade predicted later risky driving behavior, earlier initiation of drug and alcohol use, and a lower likelihood of practicing safe sex (Tangney & Dearing 2002). 

              1. Similarly, proneness to problematic feelings of shame has been positively linked to substance use and abuse in adulthood (Dearing et al. 2005, Meehan et al. 1996, O’Connor et al. 1994, Tangney et al. 2006).

    1. Brene Brown sums it up:  Shame is a focus on self, guilt is a focus on behavior. Shame is “I am bad.” Guilt is “I did something bad.” How many of you, if you did something that was hurtful to me, would be willing to say, “I’m sorry. I made a mistake?” How many of you would be willing to say that? Guilt: I’m sorry. I made a mistake. Shame: I’m sorry. I am a mistake.
    1. Adaptiveness:  Tagney, Stuewig, and Mashek 2011  On balance, guilt appears to be the more adaptive emotion, benefiting individuals and their relationships in a variety of ways, but there is growing evidence that shame is a moral emotion that can easily go awry.
  4. Review -- 
  5. Return to my story -- Both shame and guilt.  
    1. My background -- more prone to guilt than shame. 
      1. I had a deep sense of being important to Mom, cherished and valued
      2. I also had a deep sense of right and wrong.  Mom and Dad disciplined me, and Mom would always say that it hurt her more than it hurt me (and it looked  like that too.)
      3. I had a deep sense of propriety -- proper behavior.  I was taught that you always dressed in my bedroom and that my sister shouldn't see me undressed.  
    2. So there was shame -- due to the public nature of my unintentional disrobing -- but not so much for feeling inadequate or worthless or bad.  I had made a mistake, a grievous one in my opinion, but not one that destroyed my sense of self worth.
    3.  I felt guilty for exposing the girls of the class to my pants-less state.  Mortified by that.  
    4. But the kids reacted as though it was just a mistake.  A curious, remarkable mistake, but just a mistake.  I wasn't an idiot, or a flasher or anything like that.  Just an absentminded kid who took the undressing after recess one step too far.  That was it.  
  6. Future directions:  
    1. Now we have the basic learning for understanding shame and guilt at the natural level .  
    2. We'll also get into the spiritual impact of shame.  
    3. We'll get into the so-called "Catholic Guilt" and see if it's really guilt or could it possibly be shame?  Or something else?  
    4. We will be moving into more of the space where the psychological and the spiritual overlap.  Soulset  
      1. For example, your parts who feels unloved and unlovable, who carry your shame -- how do you think those parts understand God?  Would those shame-burdened parts see God as loving and caring?  Or in some other way?
      2. How does your internal critic, you know that voice that has running commentary about your faults and failings, that exacerbating your shame -- how does that part of you see God? 
      3. What is the relationship between shame and pride?  How do they connect?
      4. How can we learn from examples of shame and guilt in the Scripture?
      5. How does Satan use your shame against you?  Remember, grace perfects nature, so it makes sense for Satan to attack at the weak points in your natural foundation.  
      6. All here at the Coronavirus crisis Carpe Diem podcast, where harmonize the best of psychology with the Truths of our Catholic Faith.
  7. Call to Action
    1. Life Saving Information
      1. Shame is the "silent killer who stalks you from within"
      1. Shame is hidden, camouflaged, deceptive, tricky
      1. God wants to involved you -- YOU -- in his plan of salvation for others.  
        1. Who might you reach out to

    1. Can start by sharing these podcast -- get them out there, with your personal testimonial -- how they have helped you.  Share them, let others know
    1. Listening about shame
      1. Use the word shame -- not a perfect word but good enough
      1. Give the definition, the five dimensions

    1. Talking about shame
      1. Telling usually doesn't work.  
        1. Person struggling with deep shame -- you tell them it's not their fault, they are not bad -- harp music I'm not bad?  Heavens open up --  I'm free -- you just freed me from my shame.  Heavenly voices
        2. If you really knew me, you would feel exactly the same way about me.  If you saw who I really was through my eyes, you would know how despicable I am
          1. I'm the expert on me, by the way.  

    1. Being with others -- but you really have to be dealing with your own shame too. 

  9. RCCD community learning together
    1. Tough topics -- can work through this critical information yourself, or you can join us and we can do it together.  
      1. Cutting edge
      2. Conceptually difficult -- you won't get this level of discussion on shame and guilt in most graduate programs in clinical psychology and in almost none will you get the combination of the best of psychology and an authentic Catholic worldview, based on research, the best conceptualizations and also clinical experience.  If any of you can show \me a curriculum that goes into this depth on guilt and shame from a Catholic perspective, please send it to me at
      3. Working through guilt and especially shame is critical to our well being on both the natural and spiritual levels -- we know that through clinical experience, and through theoretical conceptualization backed by solid empirical research.  There are serious consequences to unaddressed shame.  
      4. You can work through these themes on your own, you can think about these things and apply them to your life by yourself -- but you don't have to.  It's so much better and it's so much more relational to apply this podcast to your life with other serious Catholicss doing the same kind of work on their natural foundation -- Others likeminded Catholics in the Resilient Catholics Carpe Diem Community.  

    1. Great discussions -- real life examples.  Vulnerability on the discussion threads
    1. If you are in psychotherapy or counseling, so are many of our RCCD members -- membership and all the resources and the community support -- all that is a great supplement to your therapy work. 

    1. Not in therapy?   Great opportunity to take advantage of resources and the relationships and connections so you don't have to do all this on your own.  

    1. First office hours last Wednesday, October 21 -- great Q&A on shame, very thought provoking, recorded.  

    1. Bonus Podcast from last episode -- shame in marriages
    1. Friendships forming.  

  12. Patronness and Patron.

What is Interior Integration for Catholics?

In the Resilient Catholics podcast, together, we seek fundamental transformation in our lives through human formation. We look for God's providence in all that happens to us, in accord with Romans 8:28, grounded in an authentic Catholic worldview. Join us as we sail through uncharted waters, seizing the opportunities for psychological and spiritual growth and increasing resilience in the natural and spiritual realms. With a clear takeaway message and one action in each weekly episode, you can move from dreading what is happening to you to rising above it. Join us on Mondays for new episodes. You can also join our online community around this podcast at